Bear Grease - Ep. 314: Confessions of a Former Outlaw

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

In this episode of The Bear Grease Podcast, host Clay Newcomb is joined by Oklahoma man Johnny Johnston as he shares the honest, transparent, and nitty-gritty details of his life story and his relationship to wildlife law, but more importantly about the transformation that he underwent that brought him out of this dark time in his life. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and YouTube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware gear at firstlight.com. I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. Seems like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, why did you do this? I said, well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get right, you pick them.

When your potatoes get right, you dig them. When your turkeys are right, you go get you on. Yeah, but he said, that's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can't. But he explained that to me. I traveled a couple of hours south and slightly west from my home on Wednesday, March 26, 2025, to meet with a man who I was told might be the most interesting man in Lafleur County, Oklahoma. I hardly knew anything about him.

and oddly, though I talked to people for a living, while I was in my truck, and when I got within about two miles of his cabin, I started to get nervous. He was described to me as a kind man, loved by those who know him, but with a checkered past and an uncanny expertise in wild turkeys. Why he'd agreed to talk with me, I wasn't sure, and I began to doubt why I had agreed to come. This is real rural America, not the curated version that I sometimes like to talk about. This one has addiction, illegal hunting, and broken relationships, but I had no idea I'd be impacted so much. This is an unusual bear grease, dark at times, funny at others, but I was surprised at the arc of redemption. You'll have to forgive me because I'm still sorting. out the details, but I'd like to share with you the confessions of this former outlaw.

I really doubt that you're going to want to miss this one. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is the Bear Greece podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant. Search for insight in unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF Gear, American-May purpose-built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. I had a friend and people that hunt knowing Ben Rogers Lee. Ben Lee, world champion caller, hunter, good friend. Ben got killed in a vehicle accident.

He was at my turkey camp. We hunted the first part of season, and he tried to give me to quit and go with him to Alabama. He said, you like this game. You're good at it. I see it in you. I see potential in you. You need to quit what you're doing and go with me, and I'll make you famous and me rich.

I said, no, I can't quit what I got. I got a good job, good family, got cattle. I can't do that. This is the voice of Johnny Johnston. You've probably never heard of him, but I doubt that you'll forget him. On the walk from the truck to the door of his cabin, I estimated there to be no less than 12 well taken care of hunting dogs scattered within sight, beagles, running walkers, and bird dogs.

To Johnny being called a hillbilly is a term of endearment, and he identifies as one, and by his definition, the highest-ranking qualification has nothing to do with hounds or overalls, but it's not being superficial. This story is about Johnny's life. and we'll learn some foundational stuff that started on this hunt with Ben Lee. So he left. I stayed, continued to hunt.

The hunt was over. End of the season. I was going to go out west and turkey hunt. And I had a gun and some stuff at Octavia, a friend of mine's house. And I was supposed to be in there that got my stuff. And I never showed up, so he came looking for him. and found me I'd flip my Jeep over, broke my neck, broke my back,

cut my left ear off, crushed the foot, a bunch of ribs, critical condition. Well, they loaded me in the back of a bronco and took me to the hospital, and my wife was there, pretty upset. I don't remember any of these. There was some drinking involved.

There is something to that drinking and driving. because since I've quit drinking 15 years, 319 days ago, I hadn't had a rug. When people know to the day how long they've been sober, the days prior to that were probably tough. Johnny is from the small town of Heavner, Oklahoma. He was born in 1949. He's 75 years old. He's been married to the same woman for 55 years. He's of average height.

He has a wiry build with dark. eyes that squint tight when he smiles. We're inside of his small white cabin with interior walls of rough saw and oak. Turkey beards hang in wads from deer antlers like clusters of grapes. Every single beard has a tag attached to it. There's no cell service here, but he doesn't own a cell phone or a computer. He never has. Let's get back to the hospital.

This wreck sounds really bad. but I was telling her they would fix me the best they could right then and they could later come back and fix my ear and I said oh I forgot to tell you my ear's in the right front pocket of my camouflage you told them that I told the doctor that yeah on the gurney going into surgery and he said go look in his clothes and see if you can find an ear and a nurse came running down the hall and said I've got an ear And so they took my ear, and he said, we'll do the best we can.

And I rared up again and said, hey, so I do them backwards where I can hear them turkeys walking behind me. That story tips us off to two things, how central wild turkeys have been in his life, and that he is a character. This whole story is about Johnny's life, some of it very personal. but I'm interested in his relationship with the law as it relates to wild turkeys. People's relationship to the law is helpful in understanding our society. Not the one we think we have, but the one we actually do have. Johnny is a rare find, willing to be vulnerable when a stranger showed up, me, and asked about some of the darkest times of his life.

I think we should start off with that credit to his ledger. In the last three years, no less than half a dozen people have emphatically told me that I needed to come here to Johnny's, including a game warden. But nobody could really articulate why. There's a lot I don't know about Johnny, so I'm going to begin with a question about his friendship to a particularly famous turkey hunter. You may have heard of him. Tell me about your relationship with Ben Lee. He's a super nice guy. Big man.

Walking this, hooting this, yapping this human I ever saw. He went from daylight till dark, charged him turkey. He knew turkeys. He knew how to hunt. He had a call company, made calls. He was just a good fellow. I like him. He just had a way with people.

Now how did you meet him? Through a friend of mine hunting down there, and I told him where they could find some turkeys, and they went there and hunted, and he said, and he said, I want to meet this guy, told us about this spot where the turkey is and that's how I met him. He invited me up there to talk

and we just went hunting and killed a turkey and hit it all. He'd come down and camp with me every spring after that. This story isn't about Ben Rogers Lee, but his connection to Johnny is beyond interesting. Ben was from Jackson, Alabama and has been referred to as the father

of modern turkey hunting. He started his call company, Ben Lee calls in 1970 and made a flurry of instructional tapes, videos, seminars, and won five Turkey Calling World Championships. He was a Southern style storyteller and was one of the great communicators of American turkey hunting. Here's a clip of Ben Lee. He starts sitting out there in the woods. She's laid a few eggs, you know. He gets up in the morning at four o'clock you know and the old owl way off hill ow wets him up and he'll boy he just had his alarm i mean he's just ready for everything to happen the sun comes up

instructional tapes were a big den turkey hunting was just getting going mouth called were just coming out my old turkey hunting friends one that i hunted with used a gold horn and a piece of slate now how excited could you get on the gold horn they They clucked a couple of times and three soft yelps and put it down. And that was completely reverse the way being legal on it. He never shut up. He walked, calling. Turkey gobbled, he didn't dive in a brushball.

He'd start to that turkey calling and walking to it. And he would get right on them and put some turkey stuff to him. He told me one time, he said, you like this game. But you got to keep in mind if you hunt these. turkeys like they need to be hunting. You won't have no friends. Your family will be mad at you. You'll probably lose your job.

He went on and on about all bad things that can happen to you. I said, well, it can't be that bad. He said, I'm talking about if you really hunt turkey. Now, there's people that turkey hunt and there's people that really hunt them. I get the feeling Johnny is one of those turkey hunters that really hunts them.

And that he's hanging, tagged beards, aren't the only turkeys this man is killed. His friendship with Ben Lee is going to lead us right into something critical. Did you know him personally very well? Like, was he married? Did he have a family? He had been married 13 times.

Are you serious? No, I'm serious. That's what he told me. I didn't know all of his wives. I knew several of them. But he said, if you really hunt them turkeys right, that's when he said about the family.

and your job and all that. He was speaking from experience. From experience, yeah. Was he kind of an outlaw? Sort of. Would you say he was? I hate the category, people, but yeah. He's kind of like myself.

Interesting. He was kind of like myself, he said. An outlaw. I'd heard this about Johnny and Ben, but I didn't know for sure about Johnny. I kind of put him on the spot, and he was hesitant to categorize his old friend. friend in this way. But Johnny

kind of tells stuff the way it is. But again, this story isn't about Ben Lee, who passed away in a car accident in 1991 at the age of 46. This story is about Johnny Johnston. And as you may know, I have a lot of respect for

people willing to be honest about their past. I've often found people like Johnny to be more honest than people with less visible issues lurking in their past. And I know that people like Johnny are usually cut from a different cloth. In this next question, I cut right to the chase, and you'll hear the nervousness in my voice.

Was with you, did you ever have any, did the law ever mean anything to you? No. Why wouldn't it? Because most people it does. The law itself, or you mean a turkey law? Yeah, yeah. No. When turkey's gobbled, I hunted them. You just weren't afraid of getting in trouble.

No. Never crossed my mind. I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. Seems like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, why did you do this? I said, well, where I'm from, when you're... When your tomatoes get right, you pick them. When your potatoes get right, you dig them.

When your turkeys are right, you go get you on. Yeah, but he said, that's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can. He explained that to me. Americans are intrigued by people willing to break the law, period. If you need convincing, just look at the top movies, podcasts, and books we read. Look at the top bear grease podcast. But I'm still trying to understand why.

I think examinations of extremes help calibrate society in some tribal, primitive way, almost like we get the signal for normal by bouncing off the outliers. But there's no debate about it. What's ironic is that we are a society of rule followers. If our civilization gets smashed by a comet, an archaeologist dig it up and start making conclusions about us, they'll find that this country was built on law and order. The vast majority of people who come to a stop sign in the middle of the night, even though they know that no one is watching, they're going to stop. I mean, at least a rolling stop. And in many

places of the world, they wouldn't at all, even when they know people are watching. Americans are rule followers, despite the independent libertyaholic brash exterior. And, you know, they're but the outliers are worth examination and Johnny was an outlier when it came to wildlife law. We need to know more about his past. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use.

I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. but when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to.

I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you do. did and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy to use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. Now, let me, this is kind of a personal question, but would your parents have raised you

to just obey the law? Oh, yeah. Just like in general. Yeah. You would have known. No, by the book. You can't steal or you can't. No, my folks were by the book all the way.

Well, how did you get from that to being willing to break the law? I don't know. Just getting in the world and not really care and just doing pretty much what I wanted to do. Yeah. Now, did you ever really get in trouble? Did you ever get caught like killing illegal turkey? Yeah. I just didn't ever give it a whole lot of thought.

When turkey's a goblin, I just went hunting. Stories like this can make people feel uncomfortable. especially people that love wildlife and conservation and talk about it a lot. But this is part of the rural America that I grew up around. Turkey laws were often seen as mere suggestions. This next story is about the man who taught Johnny to turkey hunt and the first time they got caught. I can't talk about turkeys with talking about my old friend.

The man that taught me out of turkey hunt. Superman. man. Yeah, we've been caught. He lived at Tallahaney, Oklahoma, and I can call his name. He's dead and gone now, and he's respected by every turkey hunter in that part of the world. Wang Cox. Turkey killing this man I've ever met, have ever known, and I knew that he hunted a lot. Back when I started, I didn't even know him. I went, he was a horseman, had a good racehorse, stood a race horse stallion and I was kind of a horseman

back in the day and that's how I knew him but I looked him up and got acquainted with him and I said here's what I want I want you to teach me out of turkey hunting no whole barred

I want to know it all well he said next spring you'll just have to come over here we'll go but win win he said oh first of March at a good time if you're a turkey hunter

you'll know that 98% of American turkey seasons don't open in the 1st of March. This was an invite to get an illegal early start. Okay. So first of March, I went date with it, and we hunted. And he wasn't little I know about a turkey. That old gentleman taught me. He was slick at a snout on the doorknob. He used a wing bone.

or a piece of cane or a briar leaf or a peach leaf later on in the year or a sleigh called very little very light you could be sitting next to him and barely hear him call

but he didn't call to a turkey unless he was 70 yards close he used the terrain the land to cover of darkness to get to him he said there's no such thing as working a turkey

People talked about working a turkey for two hours. He said that should never happen. If they're right on that turkey, they'll have him killed in 10 minutes. One cluck, two clucks, that's nothing. But you call up. And he showed me some moves. It's pretty slick. He was a good guy, but he didn't pay a lot of attention to season.

When the turkey gobbled, he went. We were one day in there behind his place. and two turkeys. He gave me the easy one and he took the hard one, father. And we mapped back, we had two turkeys. He said, we was walking back to the Jeep and one gobbled off in a big old rough candy. That injures give me that turkey. I'm going, gee.

So I went off down there, nothing. Couldn't do nothing with him. Wallered him around a couple of hours, come back, went to the Jeep. went to the Jeep. Well, he said we've been caught. What do you mean we've been called? Well, he said I've been called. Game boarder was here.

When I got here, got a ticket. Hmm. You got two tickets. So that's the first time we'd ever been in any problem, and we hunted all time for us a year. Well, did he tell the game warden that you were down there? No, no, he wasn't ever told that. He said, I hurried up and took the ticket

because I know you was going to shoot any minute. This is where the story starts to get complicated. It was back in the mid-70s, it would be the start of about 30 years of illegal turkey hunting for Johnny. My dad used to get on to me a lot for hunting too much. Really? So your dad knew that you were illegally hunting? Oh, yeah. He wouldn't do it. What would he say to you?

I'd call him and ask for a ride somewhere to let me out and picked me up at a certain time. He knew what I was doing. What would he say? Do you remember anything specific? Like, he was like, Johnny, this is bad. You're going to get in trouble. You know better than that.

But he still helped you. Yeah, he would. He didn't like it, but he would. Yeah. Did you ever hide guns in the woods? Oh, man. Yeah. I had a couple of logs up here.

I'd put them in, and I had a new shotgun I'd really proud of. And I put in there in the wood rats. He'd stop there. Chewed it all up. It's just like in a couple days. Yeah. I'd leave it. Yeah, they'd just eat on it and eat on it.

So I'd get me a big PVC and pipe, put it in. Camp. And another time or two, I got a chuckle. Control burns, that'll cause you some fugality. I had a gun back over here, and I was staying here in a camper. And I came in that day and took a nap. And when I got up, you couldn't see for the smoke. I thought, crap, I got a brandy shotgun and a log up there.

Right in that far. So I'll get it on my four-wheeler and I take off up there while I come around and there's just people everywhere. Bulldozers and firelighters and I was trying to get around and they was trying to stop. Did it burn your gun up? No. I got through them and got to it. Boy, it's pretty smoky. It was getting pretty close.

And then another time, a funny little deal. I got a chuckle out of. I hit a turkey in a gun up here on the dead end road. And I went back up there to get it later. Everything good. Everything okay. And there was a bulldozer and a low boy sitting there, not 10 foot from that turkey in that gun.

Boy, I better run over that gun when he unloaded that door. Oh, sure. But he did, and he missed it about that for her. Yeah. And they were doing something, and we snuck around, got the gun, and turkey and got out of there. This is some pretty serious outlawing. Illegal turkey hunters often hid guns in the woods where they knew turkeys were close, so they could drive to and from the spot without a gun in the truck,

making it almost impossible for game wardens to pin them down. It might seem unusual for us to be talking about this, openly. But the reason he's so comfortable is that today, Johnny doesn't have anything to hide. Because when he hit the bottom 15 years, 319 days ago, everything was laid bare. That story is coming. I'd rather someone tell it to me like it happened than try to sugarcoat it. I think we need to fill in the gaps in Johnny's history, though. I'm interested in his upbringing. I was born in Havner, Oklahoma. It's ordinary people.

My dad worked for the railroad. All my family works for the railroad. I grew up just a normal boy playing sports, and my dad quail hunted some. I just went crazy about it. I love it. That's what I do. That's my life.

And I played sports and rodeo, and I was raised on a horse. Rode a horse to a ball practice and rode a horse everywhere I went, swimming and everything. honey and the hunting part of it i just kind of figured it out on my own i just my dad deer hunted a little bit and he had taken me and he gave me a 30 30 and i just started deer hunting and just talking to people and learning how to hunt and doing it and learning from my mistakes that's a big thing we can

learn in our lives by our mistakes i dislike life i was raised in church and I don't know where I went wrong, but I liked the world better. I did think the hard way, and I made a lot of bad choices. But I'm not that way anymore. I'm not that way anymore, he said. That's actually what all the people that told me about Johnny said. That's really why I'm here. I want to learn more about Johnny's life.

One time my mom made me go to college when I got out of school. I said, no, I don't want to go, but you're going. I had a hard time getting along. I'd be late for class. Drinking was a big part of my life. And they suggested that I take a semester off and kind of find myself. Well, in the process, I was going to college at Talafah. I fell in with a band of hippies.

and I stayed on the Illinois River Bridge in a free-do van for a semester and I got quite an education. And when I left there, I went to work on a railroad and for the summer and then I was going to go back to school and straighten up and that never happened. I stayed with a railroad and retired there. Johnny started working for the railroad in 1970 and was a train engineer for decades.

But the spring of 1975 was the first season. time that he ever turkey hunted. This is when it all started. It was around 75, started having a turkey hunting, and I didn't know any one that ever turkey hunted. I didn't even know what a turkey call was. I knew two older men, and my dad told me that they had killed turkeys. They had hunted them, so I went and talked to them, and they showed me a few moves on a turkey call, and at April we had a season, and I got a call off Mr. Phil, And I went up on the hill. We had a cabin, and I'd seen some turkeys there, deer hunting.

And I went up on the hill and lay my gun up against a tree and whacked a box and the turkey gobbled and shocked me. And I looked, and it was running right at me, and I dropped my call and shot the turkey, and he'd run off. That was the first encounter I'd had with a wild turkey, and I was hooked right to him. Did you get to turkey or did he get away from it? No.

No, he got away. But I was walking around the way. he went looking for him and I heard another one gobble and I called him and he came and I shot him and got him so I'm a turkey killer now and I've hunted them ever since just like they've done something to my mama I've had the opportunity I hunt with doctors lawyers Indian chief one of my favorite people of the chief of the Cherokee nation he's a good guy my mom was part indian i'm a quarter but uh i like indians i got a good spirit a good feel for the woods water and the wind they like all that stuff that may be part of why i'm drawn to it i don't know

i like them i respect turkeys i got more respect for a turkey gobbler than a lot of people I'll promise you. A statement like this coming from a confessed lawbreaker could certainly ruffle your feathers. But I think what he's really saying is that turkey hunting meant so much to him that he was willing to risk it all to hunt them. But the functionalization of that passion was awry. There are some things in life that seem to be built for temptation, uniquely appealing but forbidden. and a goblin turkey before season has been the downfall of many a man. I've never known a woman to be a turkey outlaw.

And if you've listened to me enough, you know that I pray that this story in no way glorifies breaking the law. And I don't think Johnny wants it to either, but like in most things that deal with human nature, they are nuanced, interesting if examined in detail, and insightful if you're willing to listen to people talk, who have a different life experience than you. There are so many tidbits of interest in Johnny's story. It's like being confused on a covey rise by how many targets are in front of you. The thing that stands out most to me is Johnny's honesty about a dishonest past. He's not blaming anyone for his decisions,

and he's not seeking attention or any kind of glory at all. I pride his arm to get him to talk to me, and I'm the one that came to him. And if something goes awry in the fact that this story was released, it's Clay Newcomb that's to blame, not Johnny. Johnny remembered a story from the 1980s

that he thinks I need to hear. I probably need to tell you that story, don't I? I had a cabin on Poto Mount, and it leaked. It's a metal roof, and I got up there with a hammer, and every time I was beating that ridge cap down, Trying to get a nail in it to pull that ridge cap down every time I'd hit that metal of turkey.

This was a couple of weeks before season. I was going to hunt there that season. But every time I'd hit that sheet hour, blah la la. Man, well, it rained that night. Big rain, bad rain. Man, there won't be nobody over here. So I just drove around there. I knew close to where he was from my cabin.

but I could get up there that getting wet and walk down that road and I'd be right on it. And I yiped to him and he gobble right back. When he come, they were three of them. Oh, boy, I don't need three, but I believe I'm going to get one. And it's a good deal. I've done a lot of calling. Just seeing what I could get by with, I'm close enough to kill. I cut, squawk, and cackle, and yow.

Boy, they was putting the show on. So I shot one, got it, went back to my truck. This started to set it over in the back of the truck, and my game more than friend Randy Finnell stood up behind my truck. He was in a brush pile right there behind my truck. Got you. I said, boy, you sure do. I couldn't lie, couldn't run.

So I said, you ain't had a bad day yourself. Did you hear all that, Randy? Oh, yeah, I heard it all that good as it gets. It's just too early. I'm going to have to pick it before. Well, I don't mind me. You ain't had a bad day. Here's your gun.

Here's your truck. Here's your turkey. What else you need? Well, he said, I hate to see you taking that so hard. I'm job security for you. Do you hear all that goblin this morning? I ain't going nowhere. You told him that.

Yes. I said, you can make a name for yourself right there. I ain't going nowhere. Well, I'm going to take your gun. I said, well, you can catch me a couple more times before I get nervous. And I said, get in. that started rain again. He had soaked wet.

He had sat in the rain, probably the biggest part of the morning in the dark. Because he didn't come in there. I'd have seen his truck. But I said, get in. I'll take you to your truck. He said, after all this, you'll give me a ride. I said, well, I'm a good guy.

If you knew me, you'd like me. I ain't a bad guy. You can make a name for yourself right here. I hope they promote you and move you to Oklahoma City and get you out of these woods. I hauled him right to his truck. We still talk. Now, okay.

you describe how calm you were today 40 years later as you tell that story you're like super calm and i think a lot of times we kind of rewrite stuff in our head were you that calm for real when that guy you didn't care no he'd tell you the same thing if we were here today he'd tell you the same thing okay so there's these rock climbers these these free climbers that climb these big granite faces out and out west. And they talk about how those guys are superhuman when it comes to dealing with anxiety. And they're just able to climb on these rocks where me or you, a normal guy, would be scared to death.

Their brain doesn't equate the consequence of falling like a normal person. I still don't understand why you wouldn't be afraid because it's not like you're rich and could just pay tickets, no big deal. They're going to take your truck. if they're going to take your gun. Just for what you had going on in your life. And at that time, too, I guess you were, were you an alcoholic at that time?

So, I mean, there was a lot, I guess, of rough stuff going on. Pretty much, yeah. So it's just like turkey hunting was not something you were worried about. When I loaded them in the truck, I had a thought that nervoused me just a little bit.

Right between me and him laying on the seat with a bag of dope and a deer horn pipe. and I very casually scooted a glove over it. That unnerved me a little bit, but as far as killing a turkey a few days early, no, it didn't bother me at all. Getting caught didn't bother me.

I don't know, maybe I just look at it, different. We're starting to see that his problems with the law were bigger than just turkeys. He could have left out that little detail, but he didn't, and I appreciate that. What's ironic is that today marijuana is legal in most places, but at the time Johnny might have gone to jail for it. But I'd like to examine his statement about looking at wildlife laws different. That could sound like the typical excuse. But Johnny brings up an interesting point that if not addressed could assault the intellectual integrity of our discussion, which I am greatly enjoying.

On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God. He doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors.

Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered, suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails

premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. My point is nuanced and it has to do with how different generations view life, laws, and ethics. By my observation, some people, emphasis on some, raised in rural America that were adults by the 1960s viewed game laws as mere suggestions. and it was even validated by the legal system of the time as they simply ticketed people with relatively minimal consequences, making the crime feel not that much different than a speeding ticket. I'm not suggesting that it was ever right to break the law.

The Bible says that men should obey the laws of men, and by doing so, they're ultimately obeying God. And that book was written long before 1960. But people raised later in the progression of people, of American conservation were more likely to respect and obey wildlife laws. By the 1990s, average hunters were becoming indoctrinated with functional ideas about conservation, and it became much more mainstream to obey the law to the point that outlawing has fallen more and more out of style. At least this is what I have witnessed with my own eyes, but you'll have to listen to this and tell me what you think.

Now, what about today, though, Johnny? Because what I've heard from people, and I feel like what I've heard from you, is that you don't break the law anymore on purpose. No. Why not? I'm just a better person than I used to be. I used to just didn't care. I care now.

I don't go before it's easy now. What about now, probably with more knowledge of conservation, if everybody killed 20 turkeys a year, that would for sure be bad. It'd be wrong. What about from that angle, from just a conservation angle? Now the way our turkeys are numbers are down, they don't need to be over hunted like that. So part of your deal was back in the day we had so many.

There were so few turkey hunters that you just couldn't figure out why it was wrong. Right. I didn't see that much wrong in it. When I first started hunting over here, mid-70s. I'd come over here for two weeks and never see a turkey hunter. Hunt this whole country, all of it. Never even see a hunter. Nobody hunting over here. And it was probably full of turkeys. Anywhere you stop, it'll make no difference. Anywhere you stop you if you're a turkey going.

And so you're sitting here saying, the gaming fish tells me I can kill two turkeys. I mean, you're going to kill more than that. Probably. It's a different time. It was a different time, he said. And I want to point out that he's literally describing a former time. Penalties were different. Turkey populations were higher. Turkey hunter numbers were way lower.

And it was more common for his generation and their mentors to take wildlife laws less seriously. All this stuff makes me grateful for the generations of American game wardens that have been the interface of the law in our society as it gradually has shifted from the market hunting mentalities of the 1800s to the hyperest. informed conservation mind frames of the average modern hunter. We've still got problems today, but things are getting better. I'm still, though, trying to figure out Johnny's motivation. I've got a question for him, and I'm going to bring up two familiar names from Bear Grease's past that we did on a series called Genuine Outlaws, which started on episode 52.

We did this series on Louis Del and Charlie Edwards. It was real clear that they enjoyed getting away from Game Ordens, and that was a part of the fun that they had. And it felt like and kind of what the people around them, and I never interviewed Louis Del and Charlie because they had passed away by the time I did this, it was clear that that was part of the reason that they wanted to kill stuff illegally was just kind of the thrill of getting away with it. Was that, do you think that was a part of what you did?

No, really, I just liked it. I just liked hunting turkeys and the time to hunt them is when they're goblin. It was just that simple. Yeah, that simple. But no, not just trying to get away with it. It just, I don't know. I just did it. I didn't bait them or hunt them in the summer and shoot them over water,

set around the water hole and try to kill them. I didn't do that. If you hunt a turkey with a turkey with a, turkey call and a shotgun, you're not going to hurt the population, just shoot gobbler. That's the way I looked at it. I'm not saying that's right. And if everybody did that, it would be bad. But as far as being scared, no. Back in those days, though, a ticket might have been just like $150, just go pay your ticket. Is that right? Yeah. I got caught one time I got caught, I think, right, $2,000.

$70, and after turkey season, I made a deal with the DA that I could pick up trash with the inmates from our prison here at Hodget to pay for the rest of it. And that's what I did. So you picked up trash? I paid him a little cash and picked up trash with them inmates. Boy, they made me a lot of deals, but I couldn't take any of them either. I said, I'll be in here full time with you all right now. I've got a couple of months here picking up trash. but that's worth killing a turkey you can't put a price on killing a turkey really that's the way you would

well i looked at it but as much as i've done it i've been chased around by game do you think they were after you oh yeah yeah i know do you think they ever worked you undercover i think what are you pointing out there those bricks uh-huh i had a couple of gentlemen show up here wanted to do that do this brick work yeah i said well yeah it'd be a good good idea I needed one, but I don't have it. They said, well, we're going to build you one. I didn't think nothing about it. And they started calling my house.

I didn't have a phone here. They started calling my house looking for me, and they showed back up and find me in town. And I found that strange. They got nearly through and said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, no, not really. I think you probably worked for the wildlife department. Maybe undercover trying to catch me.

They'd ask me all kinds of turkey stuff and deer stuff. Were they hunters? Claimed to be. I don't know. I wouldn't ever go hunting with them. But they'd just keep coming back, coming back, coming back. And I finally said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, I think you're undercover probably trying to catch me

in some kind of violation or something. and they loaded their stuff up and left, and I hadn't seen them seen. You're pretty certain they were undercover guys. Yeah. Sometimes if you listen, you can hear stuff. If you've got your ears open and your eyes open, you might get a tip from somebody there, and I was kind of on the look.

You were just suspicious of these guys. Yeah. Yeah. So did you get a tip from somebody else? Yeah. How does that make you feel? I mean, at the time, did that, that didn't scare you? No, it made me feel good.

that that man thought enough of me to save me a problem. Oh, well. No, I wasn't a bit afraid of them. No, game warden are just people. I'm not afraid of them. Yeah. People see them coming a lot of times. I've been hunting with people and a game warden drive up and they just go all the pieces.

I think, we ain't done nothing wrong. The man ain't going to bother us. Johnny's transparency today is notable. We're going to learn the nitty-gritty of why he, changed. But first, here's a lighter story about an interaction with a game warden that happened during a legal hunting season. And then after this, we're going to get real serious. There was an old gentleman we know was calling to a turkey, so we just laid in the ditch. We didn't, didn't want to mess them up. We'd just lay in their lesson. He had whacked a turkey,

it wasn't coming. We'd played with him quite a bit. He was not a player. He'd gobbled, though. He was fun and I said look up and up a road there come the game ward sneaking up around and we're laying there full cavalified right in the ditch and he got right there even with me and I said get somewhere and say now he's a wild turkeys we're hunting here we can't kill them you walking up down the road dear what's matter to you and it addled him kind of blowed him up or something he went for his gun but his lats down boy you don't need no gun now We just have another man called this turkey, sit down here with. If you're going to hunt with us, you need to get there early and wear some camouflage.

If you ain't got a shotgun, go no longer you want. Now, is this before season? No, this was during season. This is during legal season. Yeah. But, yeah, we've had some wardens here. Johnny has painted a clear picture of his days of outlawing. But the one thing that those half a dozen people did tell me,

one by one before I met Johnny is that he is different today. He's changed, they said. Even the game warden suggested this. Throughout this story, you've heard that Johnny used to be an alcoholic, and from one story we learned that he used some drugs. I wanted to know how that started and why he changed. So I asked him. Well, I just made some bad choices.

hanging out with the wrong people. And I'd been around to Wildcat Whiskey and Homebrew, and I just didn't handle it very well. And then I got over here. After I got my cabin, there was a preacher that coon hunted a lot. He would stop by to see me, and I was usually too drunk to talk to him,

but I'd know he was here. I was raised in church. trained up in church like the book said but i just let the world get the best of me but when that preacher started coming here it kind of got me to thinking and i i woke up one morning up the creek here with i'd been on a pretty bad drunk and when i woke up that particular morning i didn't know where i was how i got there didn't know any of them people didn't know where my truck was I finally found someone I knew and got them to take me to my truck. The fact, I'd been gone about six months.

I come over here to deer hunting after turkey season and I still hadn't been on. So I'd lost about everything. My wife, my family, my friends, my place, cattle, tractors, but I didn't care. I woke up one morning up here and I thought, you're in a bad way. and the only hope for you is Jesus. And by that preacher coming here, I think that kind of rekindled the spirit that had been instilled in me as a kid. And I decided I needed to get right with the Lord

and get my life right and try to get my family back. And so I stopped on top of Horseshoe Mountain one morning, just getting daylight. And I asked the Lord to help me. I'm in a bind. Save me. Take this addiction from me. Give me my life back.

And I drove on to the cabin, and I went out here by this fire pit. And the sun was coming up then. And I saw a transformation in the east with that sun shining through the clouds like I had never seen before. Had to be a sign from God. A glimpse of heaven maybe, orange, purple, blue clouds, raised a light shining through them. Pretty amazing. My life would change right there at that fire pit. Believe it or not, it was easier than you think.

When you get Jesus involved in it, he took, when I gave my life to him, he took that addiction from it. Been 15 years, 319 days. I'll serve him. I believe. And he took that from me. I'd been locked up, dried out, in jail for publicly drunk, all kinds of stuff. But when I got Jesus in my life through the Holy Spirit, he took that addiction from me. I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I quit everything right there at that fire pit.

It took a few months, but I had some time. I waited. I got my life back, I got my wife back, my family back. Lord has blessed me with a good cabin, a new house. And I went for being an alcoholic with a drug addiction to a deacon and an ordained minister. Some people get saved at an early age. I got a preacher friend told me he was saved when he was nine years old. Never broke any laws.

I said, what did you get saved from? Yeah, I've done it all. What I hadn't done, I just had never thought of her, didn't want to try it. I've done it all. And that ain't no secret. I'm not that way anymore. Jesus has given me a whole new life, a whole new heart, and a whole new mindset. I've got my wife back, my family back.

Yeah. About everybody quit me. Yeah. Jesus fixed all that. Better than it's ever been. I still like the hunt he goes with me he likes mountains it's clear that Johnny has been through the ringer

but it sounds like he's got things figured out now there's more to people than the worst days of their past and there's more for you than the worst days of your past the confessions of this former outlaw is really a story of redemption thank you Johnny for sharing the nitty, gritty of your story. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Greece and Brent's This Country Life podcast.

Please share this podcast with someone that you know that might be struggling or somebody that just enjoys a genuine story. Thank you all so much. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live. A lot of train whistled. sitting right under that whistle I've lost quite a bit of my hearing I used to get a ear good and course good

but now I have to have someone go with me because my son-in-law says if you hear a turkid you on it don't go to it and start calling you already too close if you can hear it you're already if you can hear it gobble you're already too close that's funny it is it

on blood trails the stories don't end when the hunt is over they just get darker I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a head. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors.

Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions. From remote mountains to frozen backwoods, each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest.

Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you can. get your podcasts.