Bear Grease - Ep. 316: Render - Turkeys and Outlaws

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

On this episode of the Bear Grease Render, host Clay Newcomb is joined by Brent Reaves, Josh “Landbridge” Spielmaker, and Lake Pickle from onX. The crew shares some Turkey Stories, talk about hunting legends, and even some hunting tactics. They also discuss the latest episode of the Bear Grease Podcast Ep. 314 “Confessions of a Former Outlaw” and the impact of the story of Johnny Johnston. Check out the new Bear Grease Merch! If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Right before the podcast started, there was mention of a premature baby, which is something that happens occasionally in the human species.

And I started to tell a story about how in medieval times in Europe, bears were on the hit list of the Catholic Church in a major way. because of the pagan bear cults of Europe that were so dominant that like imagine today if you said what's the king of the beasts like what would you say king of the beast king of the beasts probably go with lion the lion yeah I mean that's like the universal king of the beast

right well before pre about a thousand years ago especially in Europe king of the beast would have been the bear because of what's called what anthropologists have labeled a very controversial idea, but what they have labeled the circumpolar bear cult, which basically everywhere that there's bears north of the equator, there is this like consistency in the way that humans have ceremonialized bear in like really strange and wild ways, which gave rise to these bear cults.

actual bear worship in Europe. And about 1,500 years ago, the Catholic Church, one of their primary targets, cultural targets. Like today, like a cultural target for, I won't even speculate on what that would be for a church today. But one of their main targets was bears. And literally, I've recently read a book about this. And literally there were marketing campaigns.

against bears. And one of the things that was written by medieval author circling back to a premature baby is that bear cubs are born in the winter den and weigh less than a pound. And per the calculations of big game mammals and how big their offspring should be, a bear's offspring is like way smaller. and it's this deep biological strategy because they have their cubs in the den the mother has to sustain herself

and the cub through the spring without urinating, defecating, or leaving the den and so they have this strategy of delayed implantation where they have this tiny, premature cub coming back to this story. Are you with me? I'm with me. Everybody with me, you with me, Brent?

Oh, yeah. Okay. These medieval writers marketed that the sals the sow bears were so lazy, carnal, and lustful, plug your ears. Wow. That's a lot of accusations.

They were so burdened by pregnancy because they couldn't mate again with their lovers that they just spat their young out of the oven way before it was done. Are you with me? I'm following, yeah. So this biological reproductive strategy of having these little bitty cubs

was marketed as bears are bad and you need to quit your pagan heathen cult of worshiping them, which I mean I'm all for not doing that but welcome to the Bear Greas podcast. How did I tell you to end those kind of stories? And then

I found $5 on the ground. We and Brent were just in Montana. And I, he told some, I told some that were just flat stories amongst the group. And Brent was like, when you tell a story that dumb, you should end it with. And then I found $5. I'm going to tell you where I learned that from the lady that gives you so much grief about mushrooms in your chili, my wife.

Your wife. Yeah. Do you put mushrooms in your chili? I did once. I love mushrooms. In your chili? Not in the chili. That's spaghetti sauce.

I put mushrooms in just about anything. My oatmeal. Pipe. So your wife taught you to say, like, if you end the story and people are still like, you're like, well, I mean, what happened? Where it came from was I'd tell her a hunting story, something that we would find. Oh, that's good. She's like, I'm still waiting for the part where Lewis Viten comes in or what's his name,

Louis Vuitton, whatever his name is. she's waiting for that the Lulu Lemon part of the story yeah yeah that's it she said you should always end one of those with and then I found five dollars yeah I'm finding out a lot of my stories in that way but welcome to the bear grease render

today we have Brent Reeves of the this country life podcast here it's been a while since you've been here so good to see you thank you buddy we got Josh Lambridge spill maker I'm here I'm in pursuit of a turkey in pursuit of a turkey and we got Lake Pickle

my good friend Lake Pickle Robert Lake Pickle that's it Robert Lake Pickle yeah so we've got we've got a lot to cover today

big time had a big time podcast hit the airwaves last week yeah want to talk about and just in case you're new to this man our our feed is not getting any more simple to understand

but on the bare grease feed which typically a feed would just be one podcast and there'd be one thing. But not us. Not us. We have the Bear Grease podcast, which is our documentary style podcast, which we're going to talk about this true Bear Grease is what I call it, this confessions of a former outlaw. We have that. We also have this, which the Bear Grease Render is where we gather up and have kind of a traditional style podcast where we typically will talk about last week's Bear Grease.

but we also have Brent Reeves this country life podcast every Friday. What is this country life podcast? Would you describe it in a word? I didn't think you could. Move and ride along. You can't do it in a word for sure, not one word. No.

It is an amalgamation of my life and those around me. And it's anything culturally significant in my life, which could be falling, riding a tricycle off a porch as a child or grown up, but anything is this country life, it's actually this country life. It's my country life and my friends. And observations about living in the country and the country could be a trip that we went to New York City. You know, it's my observations and how I view the world and how the world is viewed by people like me and folks that I know and stories that have some type of, of roots in place, in place and family.

So it's not a hunting and fishing show, but we talk about hunting and fishing. It's just really an Americana. If you want to do one word, Americana is probably it. I like it. Yeah, I just thought of it. Yeah, there's, I've never sent somebody to Brent's podcast

that didn't like it. And that's the truth. I think just about anybody in the world could listen to it. I appreciate him. And like it. It's just entertaining. It's just entertaining. Yep.

You know, it's just entertaining. Always, always entertaining. And it's one of those podcasts you don't have to sit down for two hours and listen to. They're usually about, what, 20 minutes, 25 minutes? Yeah. A lot of people listen to it. Going to work, coming home from work, whatever. Some folks save it up for road trips.

You know, Lake has memorized a lot of them. He calls me a phone, puts him to music and sings them back to me a lot on my voicemail. I put him to auto tune. Stop doing, please stop doing that, Lake. No promises. But it's a lot of fun. I'm very blessed to do this, man. Here it is opening day of turkey season.

We're recording this, and I'm sitting in here with you. True. A guy that gets paid. For two guys, they get paid, three, four guys, they get paid to hunting fish. It's opening a turkey season. qualms with that labeling. I don't think I get paid to hunt a fish. Yeah, because I'm going to have to reframe that too, because if I said I, if I agreed

to that, I would have to do some real explaining to my wife because I've done a lot of explaining myself out of that that I don't do that. Yeah. She thinks I just play all the time. Yeah. Well, it is open today, the Arkansas and Missouri turkey season, and we're all here. But we're splitting from here and heading pretty quick to our haunts. the haunts of the wild turkey.

Man, so Lake, I don't know what Lake does with his life. It's hard to say what he does. He works for Onex. That's true. And what he does for OnX is hard to say. It's possible that OnX is like in some sort of money laundering scheme. Because I know a lot of people that work for onX and it's like,

they do a lot of stuff he's on my feed every day and everything I turn on the old Google machine and there's Lake yeah they're feeding him they're feeding him to us

daily hey but Lake Pickle is a true southern turkey hunter this guy right here is a turkey hunter Brent's a turkey hunter too but I always talk about Brent

but but Lake Lake's a turkey hunter The turkey killer And is hunted with some of the iconic turkey hunters of North America primarily Will Primos who I'm talking about And that's kind of the reason I know you

It's through Wilbur I mean that's pretty much why everybody knows I will accept that label yeah No If I'm known through Wilbur That's a good association But you know through Wilbur That's fine by me

Yeah So what do you do like Little of this little of that What do you do for on hex Moving on That you can talk about Yeah no I may the easiest term would be like a marketing manager.

I was doing social media strategy for pretty much the whole of the three years I've been there. And then recently changed from that into doing more of a marketing manager role. So mainly focusing on me personally, we've got a couple different marketing managers, but I focus on the waterfile side. So work with ambassadors, work with a bunch of corporate partners like Ducks Unlimited and places like that. Okay. marketing strategy, which has been a learning curve.

But it's been fun. It's always fun. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hey, have you got that call? Now, I told the guys before you got here, Josh said that he liked that Phelps Prime Cuts call. I tried like 12 different.

And I'm a novice. Right. But as a novice, I put 10 or 12 different calls in my mouth. At the same time. At the same time. I say if three reads are good, 30 are even better. I put that call in my mouth, and that's the one call that I could make sound realistic. And it was like easily you could manipulate it and make good, good, like it has just the right amount of rasp and you can manipulate it real well.

Well, Lake, when he started using that call, and that's my call in that prime cuts pack. And I know as much as it hurts, Lake to say that something with my name. on it was good um i said before you got here i said lake's not playing around if he's using it he likes it he's not trying to butter anybody up because if somebody's really serious at something you can trust them to not just like oh use it to like make you feel good or something yeah and i know how serious you take turkey calling so when i mean you like that call though no i do i i fall into when it comes like mouth the helpers i which turkey calls diaphragm calls people call i've fall into a problem with a, I blow a batwing style call a lot. And so I find myself, I'm

comfortable with that, so I get the same tone with my yelping all the time. So if I can find one that I can blow and it gives me a different tone, I like that because that means I have something to switch to. Just to throw at them that's different. But the old razzle dazzle dazzle. Yeah, just like, hey, they ain't heard this yet. Now, I heard Brent call that a cotton mouth cut, which I don't think is a cut I think maybe you Have you ever heard of that before or seen a cut like that?

Hold that up. It's it's a Yeah I mean so when you're talking about diaphragm turkey calls Yes I am You don't have to know what cut it is But you know there's double read

Triple Reed single read And there's all these different cuts That are on the Basically the The bottom read The read closest to your tongue Is cut in a certain way And it gives a cut

a cut tones. What kind of cut is that? Man, I mean, it looks like somewhere between a batwing and a ghost cut. And I'd never seen one like it, honestly. Which is why I was like, man, I don't know if I'll be able to make a turkey sound on this or not. Because I'd never used one that had a cut like that, but I ended up liking it. Here, hit us with it. Just give us a little sequence. Give us a little purr, little whistle.

That sounds good, man. It does. You know, to me, what, when I find a call that I like, and that's the reason that we made that one, is that I can purr on it and make those soft noises, but also get a good raspy cut. And a lot of times, it's like one or the other, at least with me, that's the way it's been. Yeah. It's one of the other. Oh, you had to do one call for one thing and another for. Yeah, it's like, well, that's my, I mean, you could always yelp on any of them or cut on any of them, but like my best raspy cut.

call was this one and then well if i want to make soft purrs it's you know got to use this call but that one i seem to be able to get all the sounds out of them i'm the same way it's like the only thing that i can't do well on that is kiki but i oh really on that when you can't that's the only thing okay but i'm willing to take that compromise because that's about the same like the only mouth call i can kiki on the ghost cut so i mean okay used to that okay uh have you uh you've turkey hunted quite a bit this year well maybe not as much as usual but you have turkey hunted yeah yeah as much as i can how many of you killed three three where killed one at home in mississippi killed one in texas with my wife and then i killed one in tennessee last week nice yeah

now you didn't kill one in florida i did not i took i i you were there while a bunch of some turkeys so it where we go in florida we've been able to go to for number of years and uh Lacey has been burning me up to go there, which I understand. But it was a situation where I wasn't in the driver's seat to be able to do any inviting. Last spring that we were there, I'm like, man, bring your wife next year. So this year Lacey went first, and then Jordan's wife went, and then Jordan went. And by the time I got the gun, we had one afternoon and was able to hunt until like seven the next morning. So I tried, but didn't pan out.

But Lacey got one. Yeah, good for her. Yeah. How many states have you killed turkeys in? 91. I think, I want to say like 23, maybe? 23 states. I think so.

That's pretty sporty. I think so. Yeah. I would, man, the whole 49 state thing for a while, like probably 21, 22. I was trying to hit that pretty hard. And then it seemed like everyone and their cousins started trying to do it too. and then me and Jordan Blissitt, who y'all know, we would have these trips every year

or we'd try to hit a couple states. And we'd get to this point, man, where we wouldn't even really enjoying the hunting. We would just try to get this state, all right, let's get our stuff, and let's jump to the other stairs. Like, man, that ain't, that ain't it. Kind of missing it.

Yeah. So, I mean, I still, like, if I have a spring where I'm able to hit a new state, awesome, but I'm not breaking my back to see how quick I can do it. Have you killed all the subspecies? Yeah, except for it, Google, I haven't done that. Yeah.

I've just got two Easterns and Rio. How many states have you hunted in? Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama. I've killed turkeys

and all of them. In Mississippi. Did I say Mississippi? Not yet. I've killed turkeys and all of them. It's a lot of the southeast states. It's kind of the places you can drive probably pretty easily.

Yeah. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors,

where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there. but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwards. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness.

Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Man, I'm looking forward to hunting. Me and Lake Hunted, and I almost wanted to tell that story, but I kind of thought about saving that story for the Turkey Stories episode for next year. Yeah. I thought it, there's some, I thought it could work. so I'm torn. As quick as it happened, it did have enough turns in it to make it funny and memorable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a good story. Make them wait. Make them wait. Tees. Yeah, yeah. Well, what's your best story from this year? Do you have a good one? Yeah.

Besides our hunt. So I could take the one from last week in Tennessee is the way I was actually talking to a buddy this morning. I told them the story. I said the best way I can explain this is I've never so finally ridden the line. of you screwed this up and oh my gosh how did you hold that together um and so that's my everyday look man look driving down the highway so i was with my buddy uh gary stanton and we were in a place oh musketine bloodline oh yeah that's some good boys man yeah me and gary know each other because of turkey hunting is that right yeah we we had been on phone calls with each other and then

they had the covid year they had to cancel touring and uh i'd met the dude in person for the first time at a hotel at an airport in main and me and me and jordan picked him up in an electric blue uh Hyundai rental car and we hunt for four days we've been buds in Maine yeah we've been buddies ever since oh yeah i like he's a i talk to him not often enough yeah he's a good guy so uh so gary had me up this place in north tennessee and my day my morning was made before the turkeys even hit the ground because from sitting there and turkeys are gobbling and And a bob-o-white quill started whistling on the edge of this field. I'm like, this is great.

Oh, golly. So the turkeys hit the ground, and I figure out real quick, I'm in a flock situation. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this flock situation has followed me from home. Everywhere we went, I've been dealing with flocks of turkeys. And so they don't do anything. And we're like, let's make a loop around. And we end up going to the clear other side of the property. We crossed this steep creek climb up to the top.

And hearing turkeys, but I told Gary, I said, man, I've not had a turkey gobble at me all morning. Like I'm here, like, other than like a hoot owl or a crow call, but not at Yelp. And I was telling them, I said,

this is kind of followed me from home. They've just kind of been in that mood. They're staying in flocks later than I've expected them to. It's just kind of been like that and kind of easing down this ridge. And I put that call in my mouth and I yelped kind of mid volume one time and nothing. And then I got on it pretty hard and turkey jumps over it. And I looked at Gary. I said,

And the problem was, is he gobbled from right down that creek that we just came up from. And I said, Gary, can you tell what side of the creek he's on? He's like, mm-mm. Because he was, I mean, right there on it. So it's like, is he on our side? Is he across it? How far? 180.

So not like on top of you, but like close enough that you're like, if he is on our side of the creek, you know. Yeah. And so there was a little bit of finger ridge that was steep. And I'm like, man, if we make an ease up there. And if he's on the other side of that creek, there's just a little meadow. I was like, maybe I can glass down there possibly see him. Because I'm still thinking, I'm not thinking gobbler by himself at all. I'm thinking a wad of turkeys because that's what we've been dealing with.

Yeah. So he's up at finger ridge, a glass down in that meadow. I don't see anything. I yell up again. He jumps all over it. Same spot sounded like. And I'm like, man, I don't know. And then I wait a few seconds.

I yell up again, he doesn't gobble at all. Which when I hear that, I'm like, he's doing something. He's either leaving or come. Yeah. So I said, I'm going to sit down right here, Gary. So I sit down and Gary drops behind me about 30 yards. And I sit there. And as soon as I sit down, I look and this ridge has turkey scratching everywhere.

I'm like, good sign. The problem was, is we sat there for like 20 minutes. And I didn't hear that turkey again. I didn't hear him drum. I didn't hear walking in the leaves. Man, what is wrong with a courtesy gobble? Just everything now. Just let me know.

Just a courtesy. And I'm sitting there going, I'm, I'm like, I've only got two days, this turkey. And I'm just in my mind, I'm convinced he's on the other side of the creek. And I'm like, that turkey's on the other side of the creek. That the other side of the creek, someone else's property. No, no, no, we can hunt it. But you don't think he's going to cross.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a big creek. Like, it's a big, big, wide, deep, you know, got your legs wet, cross that kind of thing. Yeah. And I'm like, man, he's on the other side of the creek in that meadow, probably with a bunch of hens and jakes, like every other turkey we've been hearing. I'm wasting time up here on this ridge. And so I'm like, you know, what you're getting down on the situation. Yeah.

And we see it. We've been there for about 20 minutes. And I'd yelp a little bit. Gary, yelp back there, something, nothing. And finally, one time I got on it pretty good. You cut and yelped, nothing. I sit there and I say, man, we need to move. I need to move.

Like, he's down there, wasting our time. We need to move. And so I make up my mind, but I'm like, I need to act like I have some sense and get up stealthy because it's so steep. When you stand up, you can see down, you know. And so I'm like, I'm on a big old oak tree. So I stand up straight up real slow. I got my shotgun in my left hand.

I stand up and send. I think something's about to happen. I hear the music. When there's a normal standing up, you don't do this. So I stand. I play the didger do in the background. So stand straight up. And I go to grab and I can see down the ridge of good ways.

And I go to grab my binoculars, my right hand. And I put my right hand on binoculars and outie pops behind the tree and four. Told you. Full strut, 50 yards. Ooh. But I'm still, I'm just staying there flush like this. He's none the wiser. I mean, he's walking towards me.

So I just stood there. And he's like kind of angling towards me. Walked all the way into 30 yards, went behind another tree. And I just went foop. And he popped out on the other side. And I said, hello. With your shotgun. Yeah.

And I, and Gary was, he said, man, when all it was over, he said, man, I saw you stand up. and then I thought I knew what you were doing. And then I saw you reach your binos and stop. And you were just standing there and said, what is he doing? All of a sudden your gun snaps up. And I said, huh? Boom, man. It was over.

How many turkeys have you ever shot? Have you shot standing up? More than you'd think, but none. Like, I've done that, like that sneaky stand up and check. I do that because I've seen it blown so many times, like that exact situation. But every time since I started sneaky standing up, sorry. He's like, all right, there's nothing there. Let's move.

I stood up and that rascal was coming up the hills. Yeah. So you thought this thing is messed up? You know, we've screwed this up. As soon as he, when he popped out and, yeah, if I mean like a half second there, sure, but he just kept walking. It never broke strut. When he popped out from behind that tree, I, I mean, he kind of came out of strut and

did one of those, where's that hen kind of looks, but he was, he never knew. That's good. That's awesome. Hey, you know what? I just remembered today. The day this podcast comes out, meat eater on their clips YouTube channel has my hunt from Tennessee from last year coming out. Oh, cool. This very day.

And on that channel is also your hunt from Missouri last year. Yeah. On open, I believe it was opening day in Missouri last year. Yep. Open day. one. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we killed that turkey before breakfast. Mm-hmm. It was right off the roost and pal. It's fun to watch. Oh,

yeah. It didn't take long. Me and old Isaac. Mm-hmm. Man, my hunt in Tennessee last year was, it was, I said on the video,

I said it was one of the best hunts I'd been on. You know how you're kind of just pumped after you kill one and you, you like think it's the best thing that ever happened in it. Probably was. But on the video, video I said it was the best turkey hunt I ever been on but it we'd worked it was opening day and we'd messed around with birds all day but still at 4 o'clock I was still hunting and I won't

spoil it but basically killed the bird at 410 it was an eagle after after watching him I learned a lot he probably won't see it on the video so it's not a spoiler alert but this this I cut at this I didn't know the bird was there just was on this little little ridge point looking off into this draw and cut real hard. And at four, well, actually, it took 30 minutes. So it was at 3.45. Turkey gobbles like 400 yards. And we're right on this point.

And he's way below us in some flat ground. And I just say, I'm just going to sit right here and see what he does. Set down four or five minutes later. He gobbles again. He's half the distance. And I think I yelped at him. Yelp at him again. He cuts me off.

I mean, it's, it's, it's feeling good for a four, four o'clock gobbler. And the woods are so open, and this is what the video is hard to see. The woods are so open, I can see probably 120 yards through these open hardwoods. And the turkey probably gobbled three, maybe four times. And, you know, he, I finally see him out there at about 120 yards, and he's just in full strut, just spinning circles, just thinking about himself. and selfish like giraffes yeah and and he never gobbled though he never gobbled he never gobbled if i hadn't been able to see him i would have thought something happened yeah he's gone yeah but but just because i could

see so far i just watched him watched him and rather than coming straight to me he's he's he's strutting and drifting you know like elton john's tiny dancer you know and he's immediately what i think he's He's kind of spinning and he's veering off to my left but kind of getting closer. And I know what he's going to do. He's going to end up losing interest and getting around the point of this ridge and then probably making a big circle and just complicating things, you know. And I would watch him and I'd call like when he was 120 yards within sight, had a decoy out and he would, but he never would come.

Finally, when he got to the point where he was about to like go around the point. of another ridge, I just said, man, something's got to happen here. I started scratching the leaves. And he's probably now 90 yards, but not coming in,

scratching the leaves, and then I just hammered him. Once I saw him, I was just slow playing him. You know, just thinking, ah, he's coming,

he's coming, he's coming. But when he was about to get away from me, and I mean, it's getting late in the afternoon, I'm scratching the leaves and I just, I mean, just hit him hard. Pappap, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.

And, man, he gobbles and just breaks that strut and just comes straight to me. Beeline. Jumps up on a log and get him. Got him. How close? Probably 25 yards. Ooh. And it was a good hunt.

Man, I hear stories like that, and my head goes to, you know, the old school calling mentality to sit down, club three times and wait from to show up. I'm not saying that's not, I'm not saying it's not effective. It worked for a lot of people. it can work sometimes. It worked for Wayne Cox. I mean, hey, it works for some folks. But I say that, especially because the whole, you know, Wilbur his whole career, you know,

calling too much and calling too loud accusations he got. I was like, man, I'm not saying it doesn't work, but you can't say that like what you just described. That works too. Yes. Depends on the turkey. First I hunted with Lake and, well, and the only time I really hunted with Will, we went on a couple day hunt. I remember you saying that Wilbur would leave Yelp marks on a turkey.

He does. That's fun. So the Wayne Cox, do you know who Wayne Cox is? You guys, if we were doing a quiz on the Confessions of a Former Outlaw, Wayne Cox was the old man that taught Johnny Johnson how to turkey hunt. I didn't expect you to get it. But he was the old man that used a piece of slate. and a goat horn.

How excited can you get on a piece of slate and a goat horn? I kind of got my Johnny Johnson. That wasn't him close. He thought it was close. Yeah, but he's nice. He's just trying to be nice. Hey, today is the second year anniversary of the release of my podcast. Is it really?

To this day? April 21st. Two years. The day we're recording it. It released. You and I were in Turkey, camp in Missouri. Is that the day it came out?

That's the day it came out. Really? That's pretty cool. We had, we had, I don't know what I said, but I know what I was thinking. I thought there's no way this is going to work. I never thought I'd be here. I figured I'd be in either jail or HR by now, and I've escaped both of them. Two years.

Two years. That's awesome. Well, you know what? Bear grease is now four years in April. I hadn't really thought about it. It was released in April, too. Yep. There you go.

Yep. Yep. This stuff started to get serious, ain't it? Yeah. Getting tired of talking is what I'm getting. It's not true. That's not true. Not true at all.

Well, so this episode, I'll give you a little context. This episode is called Confessions of a Former Outlaw. And I, this episode also is playing on the meat eater. main feed, which is unique to Bear Grease. We've never had a Bear Greas podcast that played on the main meat eater channel. So a lot of people hopefully listen to it that maybe wouldn't have. And the point of me saying that is that I had called Steve Renella after, actually, I had Josh and Lake.

And Lake and I were turkey hunting. and so we had to drive somewhere and I just I sent you this draft and I said hey listen to this and just tell me what you think and Josh had listened to it and this podcast was different than anyone I've ever done and this is the way I've described it I've done a lot of outlaw stuff I've done stuff with undercover agents who were talking about people that they busted that broke the law. Russ Arthur and my buddy in Ohio, R.T. Stewart. Yeah, R.T. Stewart.

I've done a podcast on Donnie Baker, who is a good friend of ours these days, great guy. Good fellow. Who committed a crime and was punished for that crime. And he talked about it. So I'm painting the different scenarios in the little capsules that we've talked about outlaws. we did the genuine outlaw series, which was one of my favorites that we've ever done. Yeah, and a lot of people's favorites.

Yeah. And that was on two guys that are now deceased. So it was on some guys that are no longer here. And it was about their lives. And they interviewed their family and their friends. There's a new, this one, the Johnny Johnson episode fits into a different category because Johnny Johnson is still alive. and he was talking to me about stuff that he was not caught for caught on and that it was setting with him was like wildly interesting i recorded a three-hour conversation with johnny

you heard if you listen to the episode you would have heard now the episode was 54 minutes long but the actual johnny talking was only like 35 minutes so I mean we talked a lot to get what we got and I just called Steve Ronella and was just like hey man is this okay for me to put this out because I'm always conflicted about you know when you talk about outlaws you know are you glorifying it and I think if I were playing devil's advocate and I was not me and I was someone else talking about me I could probably make a pretty good case that I am glorifying it. out lawn. I don't think so. But we'll disagree. Go ahead. Well, I appreciate that.

And number, and number two, I was, I'm always very, I'm not just saying this. This is the truth. Behind the curtains of Bear Grace, my number one concern is the people that I interview in whatever case it may be. Because media sometimes exploits people, period. I mean, and I never want to do that. So if I talk to somebody, I don't want to just exploit them to get a good story that's going to damage them. And so here's Johnny, who he's never listened to a podcast before.

And he doesn't know me, but multiple people around him know me and have come to him and said, hey, you need to let this random guy come interview you. What's he want to talk about? Well, probably about, you know, the negative parts of your life. Oh, okay. I mean, you know, there's a lot of different things. Johnny could have told me all the stories about in his life where he did good stuff. Yeah.

And so I'm always really concerned. So that was part of it too. And I talked to Steve, I was like, listen to this. And is this going to damage Johnny? what also behind the curtains that's what the Bear Grigswinder is I called some high up since the Oklahoma Gaming Fish

and they didn't listen to it they didn't put their stamp of approval on it that's not what I'm saying right but I just said I'm going to do this what are the chances that that this is going to hurt this guy in some way

and basically I mean you know when you're talking about stuff that happened that long ago. It literally is a different time and there's legal things that, you know, statutes of limitations and stuff. Right. So, but it was, it was stressful.

And that's why Steve Ronella got involved in that, and, and Steve was just like, hey, man, if it's interesting to you and people aren't going to think your glorifying outlaw, if it's interesting to you, it's going to be interesting to other people. This guy's really unique. It's a great story. Yeah. And he was like, do it. And then it ends up, you know, it plays on the meat eater main feed, which was really cool, really cool.

But I don't know how to start the conversation other than just like general, general thoughts, Brent. I think up until that one came out, I would have easily hands down had a, top three that I could have argued were my favorite. And this is not even close. This one is so far above the rest of them. The cause of the story. Story to me is everything. I mean, that is my job telling the story.

It's your job telling the story. But this story is as complete a story that fits in the wheelhouse of what my feelings are, what I hold important. This one is by far surpassed anything else. Really? I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that. No, it's not even close. And I don't want to get too far ahead of myself here,

but the redemption of the whole thing is great. I'll listen to it twice. And sometimes I'll listen to them more than once on up here so I'll have something fresh in my mind. I need to remember this when we talk about it on the render. I need to listen to it when it comes out and then the next week we're coming up here. I listen to this twice because I enjoyed it. And while I was thinking it was just an enjoyable listen again because I got so much out of it.

What about before the end though when you didn't know what was going to happen? Just with like did you find yourself frustrated with the way this guy was? No. And that was totally different. You know, I was one of the dissenters on the Genuine Outlaws podcast. I didn't like it. Yeah. I didn't like it at all.

Why was this one different, though? Just the humility of the man talking and the way he talked and the way he spoke about it. And he was not doing it flaunting the law. He had an issue with living turkeys. not getting away with killing them. He just, he enjoyed. Is that why you didn't like Louisdale and Charlie?

Yeah. Because they were like flaunting it in the lot, like half of, now they were, they were turkey hunters and loved a turkey hunt, but half of it was getting away with it. Some portion of it was that they were, their identity was that they were outlaws. Yeah.

And that they were breaking the law and couldn't be caught. Yeah. And I don't, I'm not casting anything ill towards them or their families or anything like that. I don't want people to take it that way. because different folks is what makes this world up. They would not have been someone that I would have told a story about or enjoyed to be around.

I don't think. This guy right here, I would share a cup of coffee with in a minute and would like to hear, I would just like to hear how he thinks about, I know what he thinks about turkey hunting because I like the turkey hunting too. I want to know what he thinks about cows feeding in the field or what he thinks when he sees a red bird singing in a tree. I want to know something else because I identify real close with what he's talking about chasing turkey. It just, it was very, it's very moving to me.

Man, I'm actually surprised. I think sometimes, and I know you pretty well, Brent, and it surprised me what you said, but partly because I'd boxed you in to thinking that anybody, break these outlaw stories you just didn't like i mean and if you if you're new to bear grease brint spent his career in law enforcement and so and i i heard brent one time i think i can say this um brent spent his life risking his life chasing drug dealers and today when he drives down the road and he he sees a dispensary on the side of the road it kind of gives him a little

conflicted Yeah conflicted feeling It does He could have been He could have been killed In the line of duty And some of the crazy stuff they did

And then today You can just, it's like going to Walmart to buy marijuana I mean it's not quite that easy I'm told but And before we get the hate mail in That I'm against anything You got to remember

It was against the law And it was my job Exactly Period And I do not apologize for it Yeah And that's just like rational

But it's interesting because when you said that to me, it kind of put it into perspective. And it's like, yeah, I can understand then why when you hear about these lawbreakers that you're just like, no. I mean, I don't care how cute your story is, Clay, or how funny and entertaining these guys are. I just can't get behind it. So that's why I thought that you wouldn't like this one either. No. I mean, I knew you'd like to end the redemption. I mean, that's hard to argue with.

But, well, I spent 32 years and seven months seeing even the best people in the world on their worst day. You know, so you don't get to see the whole person. This story told the whole person. The whole person's story. And the man, and no one told it for him. You didn't tell his story. He told it. You just handed him a mic, and he spit it out there.

And it was good. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors.

Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there. But he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras,

just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lake had a little bit of a different...

Well, Lake heard one version, which I don't know, it's kind of hard to... I don't know. We'll start with Lake. I gave some thought to how the best way to articulate my thoughts on it. And I feel I have to tell it in like two factions because I feel that's the way his story went. I think if you look at his story the first part of it, I know we're talking about Johnny as an individual, like a person. This is his story. But I would bet, I can't speak for the rest of the country, but for the southeast, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, all that stuff. they Johnny when he got talking about hiding guns and getting dropped off and giving

zero cares about limits on turkeys or when seasons opened I would bet that most of folks that listened to this from this region either knew somebody that was like that or at least heard stories that was someone up or are that guy or they are that guy yeah and man it's probably because it's no secret how I feel about turkeys and turkey hunting when I hear that kind of behavior, I just don't like it. Yeah. I do not like it. I don't have, I'm not endeared to it. I don't care if, I don't care if they're crawling them and shooting them and not yelping them. I don't care if they're the best turkey collar in the world. And I thought about that for a while because I'm like, man, why do I feel that strongly about it?

And the best reasoning I can give you is because I would argue, now, because it's the thing, you take some, if you were to isolate some of the things that Johnny said, talking about how he feels about wild turkeys and calling them in and hearing the goblin, if you were to isolate some of the things he said, I would argue him and I feel very similarly about the thrill of hunting them. Yeah. And the difference. I like what he's doing here.

He's being articulate. He's going to split it up like a surgeon. This is good. So the difference is it's like I have those same temptations. When I go listen at turkeys and it's late February, early, March, don't think it doesn't cross my mind to go, man, it'd be fun to you up that turkey up right now. Yeah, because I'm going to be the only man in the woods.

There's been times where it's during season and two long beards come in. I shoot one of them. The other one sticks around. Don't think it doesn't cross my mind to shoot the other one, or I'm walking out with him. I hear another one. I have the same temptations. The difference is I don't do it because I feel so strongly about the resource and the people that taught me how to turkey hunt feel that way.

So when I hear that, I just, there's no other way to say. I just don't like it. I don't like that attitude. I don't like treating the resource that way. But when you get to about 54 minutes into that podcast and he talks about meeting the Lord and it changing his life, then him and I can find common ground. Because while I've never been a cereal turkey poacher, Lord knows I've sin in a lot of other ways. So up until minute 54, I was like, I don't like this. And then it hit minute 54.

I was like, man, I love this guy. Yeah, yeah. That was about the arc of it. I was like, yeah, oh. Well, let me ask you this. I don't think you differ. You did a good job of describing it and breaking it down like these little segments maybe. I mean, I'm not a cereal turkey poacher either, never have.

and I feel like we would be like within a degree of each other when it comes to, I mean, the same when it comes to obeying the law. So it's not like when I hear stories about Johnny Johnson killing turkeys out of season that I'm like, go Johnny. Yeah, that's cool. So I guess my question really inside the episode is why do people find it find it so it's not entertainment it's not like it's not like a gladiator fight it's just interesting so i mean so i find these outlaw stories very interesting and i think it's because i we grew up

being taught to follow the law so stringently that i mean it was i was of age before i knew people broke the law i mean my dad was just like so adamant about it that and it's like who are these crazy people who's intriguing intriguing intriguing intriguing I'm digging 100%. So, I mean, it's not like I'm rooting for Johnny, but you didn't even enjoy it up until that point. You were just

mad. Really? Yeah. So you were just like, this isn't even cute. I just, well, again, I grew up hearing stories like that about folks that just like the limit meant nothing, the law meant nothing, the season date, season dates meant nothing. And that was always like you don't do that. Like the resource means too much.

to be treated like that. And so, like I said, he had some stories that were unique to him, but the overall, like, temperament of that side of his story, I'm like, I've heard this before and I don't like it. I hear you. What about, okay, I think when I hear a story like Johnny, people fairly often will hear me do a story on Bear Grease, and they'll go, I know a guy just like that you need to come interview.

I would say if you let me interview 50 outlaws, one of them would, I would have permission, like internal permission to highlight. And Johnny, throughout his whole story, I saw admirable traits of personal responsibility, openness and honesty. like I saw a bunch of other stuff encased inside his stories about Outlaw. I mean, I just think, and I mean, I guess I'm telling you why I like the guy and why I think most people might listen to it. And nobody's agreeing with like, yeah, it was okay for Johnny to kill turkeys because

he's honest about it. Like, no, that doesn't make it right. But I think most people that done what he'd done wouldn't come on to bear greeks. and be as vulnerable and just like, I don't know why I did it. Or, you know, just quite that open about it. True. And the other point is the folks that I'd been around grew up here

and had stories similar, maybe not as egregious, but you'd hear them talk. And I heard very few that had the redemption side of it that Johnny had. Right. Most of them that I heard or knew of, even if they'd hung up that way of living, and it was just because like, man, I can't slip around like that anymore. They just got old.

Or they're like, ah, it's just too much to risk these days. Yeah. You know, more like it wouldn't have like I turned from it. I realized I shouldn't be doing that. Yeah. So that was like very different. Well, and I did not know much about this story. The way I framed it up and the podcast was true is that all these people had talked to me

and just been, you've got to go. interview Johnny Johnson and I would ask every single one of them. Did you notice that there were the three things that he talked about doing that were bad, he had no control over? What do you mean? He drank to excess. He didn't have a beer or a whiskey drink or whatever it was. He was an alcoholic.

He used dope regardless how much he used it was illegal. And he hunted turkeys with reckless abandon. So the three things that he talked about in there were things that. that he couldn't control himself with. Now, I don't understand when you say he couldn't control. I mean, you just say it was like... He had no self-control. No, there was no self-control over it.

Yeah. Now, that's not a justification, though, for being able to do it. No, I just... What I'm saying is there was something missing in his life. Yeah, I got you. And then when he got it squared away at the redemptive part of that of his story, that's why he's not ashamed to talk about it. That was the feeling that I got.

Yeah. Because he is unashamed now. Because he knows he's been forgiven. He don't care what Clay Newcomb thinks. Yeah. He don't care what I think. He knows that he's been forgiven and he's rocking on with his life as he should be. Yeah.

Yeah. I always use that old analogy. People laugh. But, I mean, I used to pee in the bed. I don't do that no more either, you know. And I can say that with, and when I say that, I'm talking about it. like last week is when I was a baby. But, I mean, that time's coming.

That time's coming back soon, probably. But there, we all, there's nobody sitting here that ain't messed up. There ain't nobody sitting here that ain't messed up on purpose. Yeah. It just happened to be dope, alcohol, and turkeys. Yeah. But he got all that squared away. And to me, I could hear him talk.

I just. He was somebody that I would listen to. Number one, I never heard the word fugality. Yeah, I looked into a sentence. It didn't show up in my... Nope, but I knew exactly what he meant. I knew exactly what he meant. He was context clues.

Yeah, about the puzzlement that was causing him. But it was just a totally different story than any other outlaw story you've ever done for me. You know, I think, too, if there were... And man, forgive me for, like, being a little defensive. I think I am. I think that Steve Ronella told me he was like, you don't need to apologize for playing that story. But I still, like, kind of come in with, like, my hands raised like this.

Johnny Johnson didn't come to me so that he could tell that story. Yeah. I mean, it's like all that stuff has just been put to bed. It's not stuff he even probably even came. cares that much about. Literally, he was a guy that when I talked to him on the phone, I think he would have tried to, if I was selling newspapers and he had money to buy one, I think he'd have bought one from me just to be nice to me. I called him and was just like, hey, can I come talk to you? And he was just like, well, he literally said the first time,

he's like, Clay, you're welcome to come down here. He said, I don't know that I've got a good story to tell you i mean he he he he way undersold he was like i don't i don't know that i don't know what we'll talk about i don't you know and and and uh so it's not like this guy was knocking on my door saying let's do a bear grace on me i went down there pride his arm right to talk to me and um and and i think i can share this because it's it's just interesting and i don't think johnny would mind. But he did have some people that told him he shouldn't talk to me. I'm not surprised by that.

Like just because it would expose him? Just, I mean, it was people close to him that loved him that were just like, Johnny, why are you doing this? This is done. You know? Yeah. Just like, why now? Like, you're 75 years old.

Just let all that just go to sleep. Yeah. You know. Mm-hmm. And Johnny told him, this was after we had talked for three hours and we had just become, we just had this pretty genuine connection for as much as somebody that's known someone for three hours could have, which I think is pretty legit. And he said he told this person that was looking out for his best interest.

He said, the man told me it was going to be okay. And I believe the man talking about me. I mean, like I just, I tried to, like when I first. It's always an awkward conversation the first time you talked to somebody, especially about something like this, because I was just like, hey, I want to come talk to you about your turkey hunting. But I mean, I had to tell him what I was after. I said, I also wanted to hear about kind of, you know, about some of the illegal stuff you did. I mean, it's not like it's in the newspapers that he did illegal stuff. I mean, Johnny is just like people love him where he's from. If there's one thing I know after this podcast came out is how supportive of the world is around him of the people that just love. Johnny. And so, you know, he's like, well, okay, if you want to talk about that, I mean, sure. And anyway, that's the hardest part of all this. If there's any magic inside of getting people to tell these stories, it's just like that

first, like, connection with them and trying to say, hey, I go around and talk to people about bad things they've done, and I'd like to talk to you. Like, if I, like, 20 years from now, I call you, and I'm like, Maripovich. Now, what'd he do? Oh, he had a talk show back in the day where this would uncover every dirty deed. Everybody ever did. Yeah, yeah.

So if I, if I call you one day and say, like to do a legitimate bear grease on you, you should be like, what have I done? What do you know about me? Don't do it, like. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed.

And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God. He doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there. But he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper.

From cold case files to whispered suspicions. From remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments, and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something.

I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever. you get your podcasts. I really like the podcast. And I think I was kind of with Lake at the beginning, like listening to it. And then I heard the end. But I think the issue is it's not a story of a reformed poacher.

Like that's not what it's about. It's the story of two different people. You know what I mean? It's the story of what can happen when a moment of redemption hits. That that whole thing is just, that's not him anymore. Like he literally sat there at his fire pit, gave his life to the Lord, and became a completely different guy.

And the fact that a man who is 60 years old, who's been a drug addict and an alcoholic for the greater majority of his life, can immediately stop, shows power beyond himself And so I think, I think in a sense that Johnny probably looks at that like that was a different guy. Because he's not that guy. I mean, you hear him talk. He's like, I don't do that anymore. And it's not this like he didn't get to the point where he felt like he needed help not poaching anymore. And he tried and tried and eventually he quit poaching.

It happened in an instant. And that's a, to me, like one of the most honorable things that a human being can do is to transfer. form like that. And that's worth, that's worth highlighting to me. Yeah. And I don't feel like the podcast at all glorified as poaching. I think what it did is it set a set, set a stage to show who he is now. Yeah. And I think, I think that's the difference, you know, the, the, the Louis Dale and Charlie was really entertaining. It was, it was fun to listen to. But this is a story where, of two men, of two separate men. It is a redemption story. And to me, that's what makes this podcast so good. And I think there's probably a lot of people out there who don't necessarily know that that's available to them. You know what I mean? There's a lot of people who live and regret. I mean, there's a lot of things that I've regretted in my life that I've done. But that's the great thing is about an encounter with God like Johnny Johnston had. radically change this man's life.

There is no... That's incredible. There is no worse feeling that being at the lowest point of your life and knowing that there is no further place to go, no further depth to go. And in an instant, when you make up your mind and get your heart right, there is nothing that feels any better knowing that you are on your way out of it. you ain't ever going back.

And I have been there and I know what that cat's talking about. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Man, Johnny's, what I appreciated about him is his ability to articulate, like his experience of being on the mountain at daylight and the moment of his

his salvation was powerful and super genuine. I mean, I mean, I think I can say this and the world will know what I'm talking about. I mean, like, the fact that it played on meat eater, and I wasn't sure how some people would have taken the kind of direct story of salvation. and I think what people responded to was just the genuineness of it. He wasn't trying to... You don't have to believe to understand what that man went through.

I mean, anybody would listen to that regardless of what doctrine they have about life and eternal life and they would be like, I believe that that guy had a genuine experience that changed his life. And he told us that story and hat tip to that just for human transformation.

And man, that's why this story was so cool for me. Like I called Josh after I left Johnny's house and I said, man, I mean, I just was like on a high from talking to this guy just because of how genuinely he was. And I knew that we had something special. Also, it was one of the hardest ones that I put together. I mean, there's a lot of stuff. that's not on there.

And, you know, Johnny's not perfect today. And he wouldn't say that he was, nor is that what he's trying to advertise. I mean, you know, how much of his story can we tell in, you know, 35 minutes of his actual voice? I mean, you know, this is a curated version of the story, honestly. I mean, but it tells the truth. I mean, the story is the way that I perceived it, you know. Yep. But, golly, man.

That's why I think what we're, I love stories like this because it involves the things that we love hunting and fishing, but it's so much bigger than that. It's a human story. It's the story of rural America. I talked about that in the beginning of the podcast, you know, drugs, addiction, broken relationships. I mean, sometimes the stories that me and you tell are the good version. versions of the of rural America yeah you know and we all know that there's a lot of negative stuff going on too well I even keyed in on the detail you know he talked about his his dad knew about hey his turkey poaching and was like very

disapproving like you know son you should not be doing this you know and that just made it more real you know made it because it like you said whether it's turkey potion or something else you shouldn't be doing I could relate to that part of a lot when you're doing something that like, you're like, I shouldn't be doing this. I know I shouldn't be doing this. My father doesn't approve. And that just made that, made the redemption part of it mean more, I guess.

Yeah, what was, Josh, what was the most entertaining story? I love the cold open. I had it explained to me in part, not in the woods. that I think I was killing turkeys at the wrong time. I think I killed a turkey at the wrong time and date. Yeah, I love that. The way, the way, and then he ended it. And that, Andy, that's how he explained it to me.

That, that is one of the, if there was an all-time best bear grease, just moments, that would be in the top five. Yeah, yeah. But he said, when tomatoes are right, he said, where I come from, When tomatoes are ripe, you pick them. When the potatoes are right, you dig them. When the turkeys gobble, you go get you one. Or when the turkeys are right, you go get you one. That's where we lost Lake.

We lost them in the cold open. I told you, when I listened to that draft, I said, I'm going to start using that next time I hear a turkey gobble and go, who, that tomato's ripe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, if there's anything that I did, like now two weeks after this podcast came out and we finished it just like right before. If I had like six months to build these podcasts, they would probably be slightly different than just my initial blow at it, you know?

And I was pretty heavy-handed. Janus Putellas thinks that I over, that I over-host, like, which would be relevant for me and you to talk about. He just, he just, he just thinks. Let the story tell the story. Yeah, basically he was like, I wish you'd just let Johnny talk and you wouldn't have been on there. We call it clay splaining. Clay splaining.

That's what Mark Kenyon called it. And I want you to watch, Josh, you're around him more than any of us. When he goes to clay spawning something, his right hand does this right here. You just remember. I'll watch. Well, and I want to talk about one thing that I kind of, I went on and on about, because it was interesting to me, where I said that Johnny's excuse today is that it was a different time. And I mean, if you would have the right to just roll your

eyes at that, I mean, it's just like, give me a break. You know, I mean, poachings, poachin's, poachin, you know, as long as it wasn't like in the 1800s and literally there were no laws. Right. I mean, you could make a case. I mean, we did this. thing recently with the Buckley Foster about the progression from market hunting to this

conservation mindset we have today. And, you know, there were game laws in this part of the world really in the 1870s. And then it went further and further and further until the creation of the Game and Fish Commission in 1915. And I mean,

game laws have been around for a long time. It's not like they just happened in the 1970s. And, you you know, guys like Louisdale and then were just like, oh, game balls. But so, you know, but at the same time, I mean, it was a different time. Do you think that's fair? And I explained over and over too much about the things. Back in the 70s, there were a ton of turkeys.

Back in the 70s, there was, I mean, turkey hunters, like we know today, were almost non-existent. I mean, I mean, for what my dad can tell you about it, everybody can tell you about it. In that part of the world, in the 1970s, you go turkey hunting and national forest, you're going to be, you don't have it all to yourself. We all are a product of our communities, our environments, you know, and it is never an excuse, but I think it could be a reason. because anything that you can do, get ticketed for, and pay a fine and go on, that means it's legal for a fee. Yeah.

Yeah. Right or wrong. Yep. So, and it just wasn't looked upon. He had to have, he got explained, he had it explained to him by that judge. And from then on, it was like, okay, I'm still going to do it, but I'm going on. And there's an old joke. It's an old police joke where a policeman stops the guy for slowing down at a stop sign

because no one else was coming and he pulls him over. He said, why are you stopping me for? He said, well, you didn't stop at that stop sign. He said, well, I slowed down. What's the difference? He says, step out of the car. He steps out of the car. He starts hitting him in the head with the flashlight.

And he says, now, do you want me to stop or you want me to slow down? So when he realized the difference. $5. When the difference is explained to you, and it's all on you then, you know. I'm not saying the man didn't understand what the laws were. Right. But the norms of the societal norms of where he was at, you know, it was a big deal. I think, too, you know, we talked about at that point in Johnny's life, there were a lot worse things happening.

Yeah. Killing some turkeys were, was the kind of. of the lowest rung of his egregious violations. And I remember when we're doing the paddlefish wars podcast and we're talking to Jeff Brown, Captain Jeff Brown, and Oklahoma, oh dear, I can't remember. They're gaming fish. Big, big guy in gaming fish.

Yeah, and I remember when he talked about busting the guys that he'd spent, you know, a year chasing after, and they just got a slap on the wrist and were like, did that, did that bother you? And he's like, man, there's people out there getting murdered. There's kids out there getting abused. It's like, in the grand scheme of things, this is pretty low on the things that are going to hurt society. And as much as I want to steward the resource that we have for generations, killing turkeys is not as high on the run.

It really bothers me to think like that. but it's true. Yeah. I mean, I know it bothers like, I mean, it bothers me to say what. I mean, it's like, I want turkey poachers to go to jail. Yeah, same. Like, I want them to go to jail. But then when you actually like start looking at the big picture of life and now anybody that's sitting in this room or maybe even anyone listening to this podcast, you are the minority of the world that you probably care for wildlife and specifically.

game species of wildlife more than the average person. Right. You know, I mean, so it's like this thing that we've focused on and we've said this is very important. I mean, and the truth is humans don't need a wild turkey to survive. Now, like, don't get mad at me. I'm playing the devil's advocate. Because I believe that, I mean, we've chose a lifestyle in a way of view in the world

that we're like, it actually does. It's really important, you know. I think I'd die. if they did. What was that quote that I sent you the other day? Oh, it said, Oh, something about a world without birds is a bird I don't want to exist in or something like that.

Well, that was the essence of it, but it said humans can't exist without birds. Yes, that was it. Yeah, and it was this like metaphorical kind of art, like just beautiful saying about this person's expressing their love for birds.

But they were also actually talking about how birds, make the world go around, eating insects and keeping them off crops and all this. But basically, they were like, humans have to have birds. I sent it to Lake because he likes ducks. So I'm going to take, I mean, I hear the point you just made. I'm going to take it and pull a little bit different spin on it. Right. So I do agree, like, definitely about the being a product to your society.

Because I have thought, you know, because I've crossed past with guys that are my age and younger that I don't know if they did anything as, you know, killing as many or, but guys that were willing to break the law for wildlife and hunting stuff. And it would cross my mind to think like, man, if I wasn't, if I didn't have a main turkey hunting mentor like Keith Polk or followed up by Will Primo. Shout out to Keith Polk. For real. Every week.

Will Primo, guys like that. Would I have the same views that I have, the same values? But then talking about like, I mean, I definitely hear. like low on the wrong, you know, grand scheme of society. But man, when I think about Turkey on, just Turkey, I could go down this direction with a lot of different stuff, but we're talking about Turkey on today. Some of the most impactful relationships that I've had in my life, some of the most impactful friendships.

I mean, like me and I know Keith Polk because of spring turkeys. And Keith Polk has been other than my actual father, I don't know if there's been a male figure that's been more impactful than Keith has. Good human being. So when I think about turkeys and turkey hunting and I attach such a high value to that resource, of course I'm thinking about the hunting side of it, but I'm also thinking about the people that I know and the friendships that I have because of it. Heck, my whole career started because of a love for turkey hunting.

So when I see that get abused, that's why it strikes such a chord with me. Yeah. Oh, I get it. Yep. Yeah. no i mean that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the way we all feel i mean it's true um it's it's yeah it's a great it's a great way to say it yeah i mean we've we've fixated our life where this is like something really important you know and in and i think in society

that's real that is really important because the only reason wild turkeys are still here today is because of hunters who loved them i mean essentially It carried them all over the country, putting them out in new places. I mean, like, you know, the story of the wild turkey in North America, if you don't know it, is pretty astonishing. I mean, numbers got down super low. I don't know, around the turn of the century. I mean, the people that brought it back, it wasn't the tree huggers. It wasn't rich people from some place.

It was turkey hunters. Yep. So, yeah. So in that case, we do have a right to be like, don't. abuse our resource, you know. But I always think about it from a historical revision standpoint, though. Like when you look back at a time and you just go, man, that was so bad. Because there may be people today in America that are poaching turkeys like that.

And I hope they get caught and I hope they go to jail. Yeah. I mean, that's the way I feel about it. but I don't think it's as common today as it would have been back then. And I do think it was a different time. I mean, like, man, and again, I'm not trying to justify what Johnny did, but I'm just saying 50 years ago, rural Oklahoma was a different place than it is today. And there has been this transition from these guys that had this resource to this, like,

hyper-fixated conservation hunter that's kind of a really, is in the day where we're like, hey, it's not cool to break the law. Yeah. And that's what I was going to say was I think that we've done a good job as, you know, game and fish agencies and ethical hunters to make obeying game laws cool. You know what I mean? That it's not, you know, there used to be this outlaw mentality. Now it's like, it's like, we don't do that. Like that's what's going to keep us from having hunting. And I think there's been a good mind shift about that. Because, you know, we've got to protect it if we're going to have it.

So, anyway. I don't want to name his name, but this dude that's like a known poacher that has like a poaching like social media presence. Are you aware of that? You were aware of that guy? I don't even want to say his name. I wouldn't. Yeah.

I dare not say his name. But yeah, I'm aware of him. is that common that was the first time i've ever seen anything like that no it's not common and it honestly it's a it's something that we've hashed out before um and he's honestly it's honestly not as prevalent he's not as prevalent now as he used to be uh but that was the thing our friends sent us this morning yeah first i ever saw that was at the first yeah good never heard of that It's just this guy that like his stick is that he's a poacher, you know. A social media guy.

Yeah. Yeah. And frankly, I can't stand him. Yeah. Well, I don't think. I don't like him either. Anybody could. And that's where people get confused.

Someone in jest sent that to me. Yeah. That person shall remain nameless. Don't look at me when you say nameless. It wasn't you, but it was just like somebody like you. And they were like, like. like, why don't you have this guy on the podcast? Gordon.

And it was a joke. But it's like, no, that's not, I mean, that is not cool. Yeah. I don't know. It's just like very fine lines. It's disgraceful. It's disgraceful. No integrity.

Yeah. Yeah. And man, you know, there's a big difference between somebody that's doing that and somebody that makes an honest mistake and gets a while. violation. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I, probably a pretty high percentage of serious hunters that are, have,

have received some kind of wildlife violation. Just because of sheer exposure. Really? 100%. In this chair? In this room? No. Well, me.

There you go. A quarter of them. Yeah. I'm like Johnny, buddy. Hey, 20 years of you young podcasters out there, If there's some little seven-year-olds out there that's going to have a podcast one day, come talk to Uncle Clay about 20 years. No, I've talked about it on this podcast.

I got a... Shooting deer at night. No, no, that's not true. Accidentally. That's not true. That's not true at all. It was a squirrel wanting waste violation for a single squirrel. I mean, I've talked about it on the Meteor podcast years ago.

And it was a massive deal in my life. Not because I got in trouble. I just went and paid a ticket. I remember it. I remember it. It was a huge. I mean, it, like, broke me down for, like, years. Truly did.

And there's nothing to say that I couldn't get a violation tomorrow, but just, I mean, just on accident, stuff happens. But, I mean, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying there's good people that have stuff happen to them. I'd say it's true. It's like a lake agree. Oh, yeah. Does this get the lake.

Lake would, Lake is like the fly fisherman of turkey hunting. What does that mean? It means the, like, elitist, like, you know, like, sinning and spinning and sinning, you know, like, you, like, being like, oh, did you catch it with a spitting rule or with a fly rod? I would say in the Turkey world, Lake holds the highest standards. I wouldn't. There'd be some people that would argue with you on that. Yeah. But, yeah.

Well. What a render. This is, I love these conversations. It's just interesting to me. I mean, it's just interesting, you know, and it kind of makes people talk. One thing that Steve Rinella said to me the other day is he said, hey, even if people didn't like it, he said, if it makes people talk about hunting conservation and makes them, like, flesh out more of their doctrine for why they do what they do. I think a lot of times we just have things that are formed and we don't really know why or we don't really think at all. the way out and a story like this makes you think some of it out and I'm still wondering about it

because I mean I don't know I still even go back to maybe the most interesting thing about Johnny and I think this is the reason that I'll probably still do outlaw maybe not outlaw stuff but you don't have to be an outlaw but I think Johnny is more honest about his life than a lot of clean-cut people that I know yep I mean I just think he's I just think he's honest I appreciate check that. Who doesn't like a story with a happy ending? Yeah.

Had a pretty fantastic ending. Yeah. Good one. Yep. Absolutely. Well, anything in closing, Brent? Anything you want to talk about? Prettain to the episode?

Anything. Anything in the world. I like a tart cherry pie. More than, like, sweet. I like a tart. How do you get that? I don't know. My wife cooks them.

So you'd have to ask her. She put mushrooms in it? Not that I know of. Lake, what about you? Closing thoughts, comments. Me and Lake are going turkey hunting. Closing thoughts. But you know you ain't going to be poaching if you're going with Lake, so sorry.

You mark that off your list. Closing thoughts. Guess, you know, like I said, Johnny was about in the worst kind of ways. you could ever be and he found redemption in the way for everybody and by way by way of the Lord yeah same way i found it so think on that i'm sure that there's as many people listen to it especially somebody's made on the bear grease feed i mean the meat eater feed somebody listened to that story that probably could use a little redemption yeah yeah jorge i'll take that one i'll take that one for my elitist ways.

Man, if I could, if the Bear Grays podcast were just guys like Johnny Johnson, Joe Rogan would be knocking on my door, wanting to be on the render. Yeah. I've had, some people are like, why don't you do more of those? People dig the outlaws, man. Well, or just people stories. Yeah. And I mean, it's hard, it's hard to, they're hard to put your hands on.

I mean, and boy, when you, when you get one, like, like Johnny, You just, it's special. I love it. Closing thoughts, Josh? Nope. I don't have anything. Nothing. We're going to go kill some turkeys.

I'm going to Kentucky. All are going, staying in Arkansas. We're going to go bring home some birds. Keep watching on social media. We'll put pictures up. Keep watching. All right. Well, thanks for coming up, Brent.

Lake, thanks for being here. Josh, appreciate it. And keep the wild place is wild because that's where the bears live. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood.

Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there. And, uh, but he was. wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here,

there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.