Bear Grease - Ep. 342: Render - Feist Mafia and Everything About Squirrel Dogs

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

On this episode of the Bear Grease Render, Clay Newcomb welcomes squirrel dog man, Tyler Asbury, as they talk all things squirrel dog: what is a Feist, what makes a good squirrel dog, training for competition vs. pleasure hunting, and what breeds are the best. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Welcome to the Bear Greas Render. Man, this podcast is unique because I didn't foreshadow about this.

I straight up shadowed. Didn't shadow. It's almost like a prophecy. I prophesied about this podcast. Did you hear when I said that I was going to have you on like a couple of months ago? You heard about that? I caught that clip. And then he had texted me earlier last week.

And my wife was like, well, what are you guys talking about? like they gave you talking points to get studied up and I'm like no but but I think we're cut from the same cloth so we're just going to go talk we're just going to go talk yeah well we've got we've got Tyler Asbury here Josh spillmaker and Tyler is a squirrel dog expert I don't care what anybody says he's going to be like oh I don't know that much about him he does okay in the business world they call it a smee a subject matter expert Tyler is a smee when it comes to to squirrel dogs And so we're going to talk about some squirrels. I need that in writing, but go ahead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just right off the top, did you follow any of the public land stuff that happened in this last week? I did. I did. And I seen we won. And that's wonderful. Selling public land for corporate money or whatever they're going to do with it, drill, I assume. That's just a huge win.

And I feel like that's a fight. We're going to fight for a long time. Yeah. I know you guys hunt like a lot of public land. That's 95% of what I hunt. Right. So to think about like our kids not being able to hunt that, it's crazy, man. No kidding.

And the hard part of it is, is it's probably more nuanced than what it seems. It's like they're selling our public lands, that's bad. When you actually get into it, you know, a lot of what they're trying to do is say that it's for, affordable housing out in these western cities, which is a legitimate thing, like these cities that are surrounded by national forest that are growing. Yeah. And it's like, is public land eligible? Can the government say, hey, we're going to sell off this land for these cities? And it's just such a hard thing to regulate because it's like, yeah, are they really going to make affordable housing in Bozeman, Montana?

I mean, are they really going to build houses out there that, you know, for $150, $175,000 that, you know, a young family could go buy? Or is it going to turn into something completely else? Because there's nothing affordable there now, what would make it afford? You know, there's all these questions. But the bigger philosophical question and the thing that the American hunters and other groups dug their heels in on on this deal is that, I mean, despite anybody's view of how the government should operate. Yeah. Like, you know, big government, small government.

It's like wild lands are the most limiting resource on planet Earth, I would say. They're not making more of it. No, we can't make more. Barring an apocalypse that literally destroys our civilizations, once land becomes privatized and has roads, has development, has concrete, has, you know, goes into this, you know, turning into non-wild lands, it just never comes back in, ever. I mean, literally barring an apocalypse, a comet hits us and destroys this country and it turns wild for a couple thousand years. Right. So, you know, our philosophy and our stance and what we're saying is we want to keep wild lands and we can't trust the government to really decide.

I mean, if you actually could partition off in a reasonable way, like a small portion of land for some of these cities, I mean, maybe there's some place where that could happen. And it's actually legal to do that now and there are ways to do that now. not 1.2 to 5 million acres though no no and so anyway it's a it's a there's a lot of nuance to it but the fundamental question was you know the senator mike lee yeah which uh who who was who's who was just like wanting to sell this land utah has a huge portion of their state that is federal lands right there's people that said well what does anybody else in the country have, why do we have a right to say what happens in Utah when we don't live in Utah? But then it's like, well, Utah doesn't own it. The federal government owns it.

Right. You know, I contacted my senators and I just said, look, it took too long to get these private, these public lands. And this is what makes America America. And these are the rights of an American and our rights should be protected and not sold. So I'm counting on you to protect our rights. Can you believe that there's people in this country that would have no place in their, in their, just their life, their mind, their history, their history they can remember anyway, of any value for public lands? It's crazy to think about. And I don't think that people realize how much impact that that has had on their lives regardless or not. whether they interact with it.

Well, I mean, you know, you look at these population maps that show, I'm pretty sure I saw a map the other day that said, these cities have more, like it showed like Los Angeles, parts of Texas, like Dallas, New York City, Miami, maybe. And they were like,

these little circles have more population than these states. Wow. I mean, you know, like there's more people in Dallas than the whole state of Arkansas. Yeah. Like stuff like that. So it's like there are population centers of people that don't on a daily basis think about or interact with wild lands. Probably like a lot of people that listen to this podcast and us in this room do. And so it's like you talk to, I mean, that might be a massive population that it's just not that important.

And so they hear, we have all these federal lands. they cost a lot of money. They're worth a lot of money. Countries in debt. Maybe it's a pretty easy ideological process for them to go, yeah, just sell it. They don't live the lifestyle we live. Exactly. Yeah.

What was really cool to me, and like I'm not political, politics suck, whatever side. Jesus rules, Jesus wins in the end. But what was cool to me is there's so much agendas in government. Right. So everything is funded or has to do with a dollar. So when they did this, like everyone on my Facebook feed, my Instagram feed is sharing, Contact your Senators, Let's Win. Like, I got guys posting stuff.

I've not seen a post from you since 2016. Maybe it's just the group of friends I have, but everyone coming together, like, we're not doing this. Yeah. It was wonderful. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Yeah. It was pretty cool. BHA put out some numbers.

It was like, I can't remember 133,000 calls to senators in just a few days. That's awesome. You know, it's pretty, pretty, everybody showed up, and I think that's what helped protect the land. Well, the main reason that we need public lands, and I think all Americans agree, is for squirrel hunting. And that's why Tyler Asbury is here. Always circles back. Except for like, I have to dodge bow hunters and then have to dodge duck hunters and then have to dodge trappers. Like, I came out of the woods.

I came out of the woods last year on a road. I like to hunt quite a bit in Rainy Break. Rainy Brake's a WMA. I named my son after it. And there's this old dude. on a four-wheeler, just like cat and by, and he's got to be 85. And I was like, hey, man, he's like, you got squirrel dogs? I was like, yeah, he's like, well, I've got like 19 number two dukes on that water to catch Coons with. You might not want to turn loose here. I'm like, oh,

so now I've got to dodge trappers as well, you know, so, but yeah, public lands. Challenges of public lands. Yeah, yeah. Well, Tyler, you live in East Central Arkansas. Yep, yep. And how long you've been squirrel hunting? Oh, man, 15 years. or so, I started coon hunting and the wife was like, this coming in at 4 a.m. is not going to work. And I love to coon hunt, but I'm also not a night owl. So yeah, 15, 16 years squirrel dogging. Yeah. Now, so I wanted to have you on just to set the record straight about, we're going to talk about many things. But talk to me at first about what you said earlier about how squirrel hunt. hunting with dogs has kind of blown up.

It really has, and I think it's because of things like this. Social media and just people, like, I grew up in every one deer hunted. Like, let's get a corn pile out and a 30-30 and let's kill that Pasket Rack 6, and we're getting it, you know. And like any more, like there's more. I mean, that's what it is. That's Josh's style. That's what it is. In my country, there's more and more people, you know, trying new things.

But like, I cannot fathom sitting in a deer stand. and just swilling my thumbs, like hoping a deer walks by. I think I deer hunt differently than most people. Maybe I wasn't taught to deer hunt right. But anyway, yeah, it's huge. That's what all deer hunters do is just twiddling their thumbs riding for a year. I've offended someone, and I apologize to whoever. But, yeah, no, it's really blown up, and I think people trying new things, you know,

but really social media has done wonders for the sport. And you've got guys that can afford to go by like a finished train. dog. You know, like I sold a jip in 22 to a man in Georgia and he never met him. He's like, hey, seen your Facebook post on about your dog. I'm like, cool. You know, and yeah, social media has blew it up huge. And then there's like, you see that as a positive thing. I am a father of four in the toughest economy. I've seen like I'm going to sell a dog yearly. Like I've got to. So, so I try to raise two a year. Maybe keep one, maybe sell one. That's what I do. And, you know, there's people out there that don't enjoy raising dogs and they need to buy dogs.

Yeah. Now, hey, I tend to offend people, like offend the cultural norms when I'm around cattle farmers. Usually the first thing I ask is like, how many cows you got? Yeah. Like, I know the rules. What are you worth, brother? I know the rules. I'm not worried about, I'm not doing the math.

Economics is not what I'm interested in. Yeah. I'm interested in just like, what's your workload? How much land do you have? How much, how many, how many? cows per acre you're putting on this place. Just tell me about your life. Like, I'm not really trying to get in this pocketbook.

So I'm not trying to get in your pocketbook here, but what's a good Finnish squirrel dog worth? A good year and a half old finished squirrel dog. To a man wanting to kill squirrels or a man wanting to go to competition hikes. You tell me. So you can go, there's several different organizations. You can go to a USDA. It stands for Ultimate Squirrel Dog Club competition hunt.

And you can spend. I got a tattoo on my chest right here. Yeah, yeah. I've got one as well. Oh, you actually have a squirrel dog tattoo. Yeah, I've got a squirrel dog tree. This man has a tree and dog on his wrist. But anyway, yeah, you can go spend $2,000 on an entry fee and win a new pickup.

Squirrel hunt. Squirrel hunt. I have seen. I quit. I have seen $30,000 exchanged. Holy sloose. For a good squirrel dog? Yes, sir.

Young one. Five, six-year-old, healthy, clean bill of health in the prime of its life. And then I've seen a good pleasure dog. Like, if I call you, like, Clay, I've got an 18-month-old dog that's rocking. She's as good as she's ever going to be. I want three grand for her. That's pretty close. Right now.

Depends on the party, like the customer, I guess. Yeah. 30 grams. I've seen Coondog sell for double that, dude. Now, explain to me, how did these groups, I've never understood. understood these truck hunts. Where's this money coming from? The entries. The entries. Tell me, give me, now I'm into the pocketbook. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How does this work? Like, I come and it's a $2,000 entry and there's a hundred guys, so they're gathering up $200,000,

and they go buy a pickup and somebody walks away with $150. Yeah. Welcome to the Bar-Greece Squirrel classic. We're hiring Tyler Adamsbury to run it. We're going to pay him $30,000. We're going to buy a $45,000 pickup, up and me and Josh are keeping 160? What's comical is what you just said is happening in the koon dog world right now. And I'm clapping for them guys. I am. I wake up and go to bed thinking about squirrel dogs, and these guys do too. I don't have any interest to drive to Mount Orio for a competition hunt at all.

I would rather go squirrel hunt alone with my dog and make a good dog and then sell it. I can't run the roads like that. I can't afford those entry fees. Some people can. That's great. but I can't. But yeah, and, you know, the more, like, so like right now, they're selling entries. The president of U.S. D.C., his name's Jeff Island.

He's from Alabama, a good friend of mine. He, every Thursday, he's like, okay, here's this hunt in Jamestown, Tennessee. We're going to sell 36 entries for sale right now. Go. Wow. How much of those entries? I want one. I want one.

I want one. 500,000. Whatever you want to put. And what are they giving away on those hunts? Money. Sometimes money. I used to, I used to hold a lot of. squirrel dog hunts before the kids got old enough to really, really go and do four-wheeler,

side-by-sides, whatever you want to play for, you know. And then there's other squirrel dog registrations where it's not so much money, but like $100 entry fee. Like there's a company called NSD, which is my favorite. Jimmy Inman owns it. He's out of Tennessee as well, and they have state races. So you can go do like a $30 hunt on Saturdays and keep up with, like say Josh wins it, he gets 100 points.

Well, at the end of the year, he gets a check and a jacket. And he won the state race, you know. So it's whatever you want to do, really. So is there, are there multiple organizations? Oh, yeah. Are there just, like, people that just have hunts? There are. And that is very like, what do you want to do?

Like, do you want, so, so you wanted to talk about fists. And, like, there's, like, 64 fist organizations based on. Are you hyperbolicly saying 64 or are they literally 64? No, there's like five or six. Sorry. Hyperbolic. Yeah. I now know what that word.

Big word. Exaggeration to prove a point. Right. Put that in your memory bank. I can't wait to call my wife and use that word on the way home. Yeah. She'll be like, what? Where did you learn that? What are we talking about?

Hyperbolic. Okay. A number of feist organizations. Yeah. Yeah. There are five. And basically like, it's political. It's so political. So it's basically like this group of guys doesn't want to hunt against this group of guys. So like we're going to make our own organization. You're not in. You're in. It's what it is. Okay. I want to come back to Fice, but I want to stay on the squirrel dog competition.

Competition hunting. Now, I've, I have, I've competition coon hunted. I won't say a lot, but enough to be quite familiar with it. And I've never been to a competition squirrel hunt. But I now, man, Tyler, I knew this is going to be good. I now have a new dream. I have two, I've added a new dream and I'm going to expose it. To the list. Let me drop this down.

Formerly, I was interested in being a commercial fisherman and a high-end mule trader. That was like a dream. Heavy equipment operator. I'm dropping commercial fishing. Oh, really? I'm just over it. But I have attained high-end mule trader. Oh, yeah.

You want to find like top dollar mule? I'm your man. Yeah. actually put mule trader in my bio on Instagram. Yeah. Okay. Now I want to have a bear-gree squirrel classic. Okay.

Where we give away a thousand acre track of land. And I also want to hold a high-end mule sale, like Chrome in the Canyon or like Bishop Mildays. Yeah. That kind of. Are you doing that at the same location at the same time? It'd have to be different times, but I would just be the guy that's like, hey, if you need squirrel dogs or mules, Clay's not only the man, but he's got the infrastructure around him. Yeah. So, yeah.

Anyway, guys, Ty. Yeah. No, so there's all these, all these hunts. Okay, so there's a difference. Describe to me the difference between a pleasure dog and a competition dog. So those are phrases that people in a dog world would be really. would understand. I think somebody that's never squirrel hunted would not understand.

There is no difference in a dog's talent in the two. Pleasure versus competition. It's just a difference in the handling. So, like, if you go squirrel hunting, you may want your dog to timber with the squirrel as it leaves and stay with it so you can find it to shoot it. I don't want my dog to timber because in a competition hunt, you're going to get minused.

If your dog leaves that tree, I've not seen, I've seen three dogs my whole life that could timber a squirrel well. Most dogs are going to timber it for 20, 30 yards and then lose it. And their instincts to put that nose on the ground. And then they look like a fool. They've lost it. Timbering means dogs tree, squirrel in a tree, and then the squirrel leaves. It goes from tree to tree. Yeah. So the way I am bringing up pups right now, I do not want them timbering. I don't want them to leave that tree until I physically pull them off of it. Okay. Yeah, there's very, very little difference. I have seen some pleasure dogs that will never see a competition hunt that I

think a lot of. Always will. Tim's mother, Cali, never put her in a hunt. To this day, the best pure squirrel tree I've owned. The only one I've ever buried.

And then I've seen some competition dogs that were, like, where I live, I hunt along a lot of rice fields being filled. So I'm going to send him down that levee. So he may be 600 yards

before he ever cuts in the woods and smells a squirrel. We don't want to do that if we're killing squirrels. I don't want to walk that far. You dang sure don't in this country. I definitely understand why you hunt off meals now. I am not a mountain guy.

I'm not built for that. So yeah, it's just a little bit of handling. That's all it is. So the idea with the competition dog is that he needs to go tree of squirrel and stay on the tree until you get there. Because when you think about, if I were just describing the competition to someone that had no understanding, like a competition gives value to the things that's difficult for a dog to do. Yes. And what's difficult for a dog to do, even though we're breeding tree dogs, is that not every dog,

that's bred to be a tree dog is going to be a tree dog. Tree dog meaning when an animal runs up a tree, they stand under the tree and bark. Like, if you think about it biologically, that is clearly a man-induced trait because a wolf, if an animal runs up a tree, a wolf is going to walk away and go find something else to catch on the ground because he's never going to climb that tree. Right. So, I mean, you know, like deep historically, like people were breeding dogs that stayed at the tree and bar. And so anyway, that's a limiting factor. So a competition gives ultimate value to a dog that stays treed. Yeah, yeah, basically.

And so a competition dog needs to be quick and fast, accurate. He needs to be treated very fast. Here's the deal, and this is going to really hit home with you. If you are treed 900 yards do, what direction is that? That is. Is that west? Is that west? If you're treated 900 yards west here, you might not hear that dog.

Right. In the flatlands, you might hear him. So a dog that's a competition dog needs a big mouth. Okay. So, i.e., they are breeding a lot of hound into these competitions for that mouth. Okay. Like, my cur that I raised last year, I called her sassy. I sold her.

She had a really sharp, high-pitched mouth. I could hear her well. I have had dogs with a coarse, oh, oh, oh. Like, dogs sounds like it's been smoking menthols for 20 years. I can't hear that well. I can't hear her this well on the right ear. But, yeah, so it needs to have a huge mouth, a lot of foot speed. I know guys that are breeding English point.

into these squirrel dogs for speed. Yeah, and log down tree, tree power. I mean, that's, it sounds so simple. Go tree of squirrel fast, stay there. But you have to factor in so many things, weather, location, population of squirrels. You know, I mean, it's, it's always different, and that's why I love it. Yeah. And getting treed fast, you know, that sounds kind of silly.

It's like, well, yeah, you're going to turn a little dog and it's going to go tree. Man, that goes back to hunt drive. that's in a dog. I mean, getting trade fast is basically just, there's a lot of, if you turn loose 10 dogs, they're all going to have a little bit different style in the way they hunt. I mean, some dogs are just going to disappear into the woods.

Some dogs are going to, you know, every variation. They're going to stay close to you for a little while and then go hunting or whatever. In a competition dog, no matter what he does, go. He's got to go. And then there's also dogs that just instinctively well let me ask you do you think that there's like these really good ones like they kind of

understand squirrels and understand where they're going to be like you and i would like if you were in a rice field looking at a wooded wood edge yeah and i don't know the timber was real thick right there and viny in your mind you're thinking i bet there's a squirrel right there yeah do you think the dogs are keyed in that much they have to be and and that i actually just talked about that with my buddy lane parks in tennessee like i've seen good competition dogs that just didn't know, I got to get out of this water. I got to get down.

Like where I live, game is on field edges. That's where game is. I've got to get out of this and go find the right woods. And what you just said, that is a trait that cannot be, they either have it. You do not teach it. And that's what so amazing me is that is pure skill. Like, that dog just knows.

Intelligence. And here's another thing. Like, you've got these fies running around that are 10 times more intelligent than a. a Walker hound. They're way smarter. Hey, say that again for Brent. I am a Walker man to the core and always will be, but it's facts.

And then plots are a lot smarter than walkers, but keep keep going. Yeah, yeah. I derailed you. You're going to have to get used to this. My job is to derail my guess. You're doing good. You've taught me a new word and we've derailed me twice. I'm sorry.

So, okay, dogs like, using intelligence for a game, fight smarter than a hound. Yeah, it's facts. Yeah. So knowing where to be is huge. Now, I really am huge on a winding nose. So, like, I took, I raised a jip I called Whip. She's always going to be my one that got away.

I sold her. Needed the cash. She was just amazing. She's in the Hall of Fame now in NSD. My buddy Lane owns her. She was the kind of dog that would win no matter where you are. So in 22, maybe 23, I go to Mount Orbow, It's a huge frost on the ground.

It's October. It's not frosted here yet. She's 17 months old. I've put her in three hunts and won all three of them. So this is the fourth hunt I've took her to. So the early round, like, I get my head beat in. She's never hunted on a frost in her life. She's never seen one.

And I get to think about it. I'm like, this was so stupid. This is on me. I get to buy back in the next round. Those squirrels up there are laid out sunning. Like they are on limbs just chilling. That doesn't happen. here. That doesn't happen here. So she's just, wind and squirrels, just picking them like popcorn.

Here in the middle of the day, they're not laid out sun and they've been down, got what they need to, and they're back in a hole. So location's pretty huge, you know, where you're at. And I'm really jealous of that because those guys will like, those guys will like sleep in until six, go get breakfast to the local cafe, eight, nine o'clock. They're going to turn loose around 10, be home at two. Like, brother, where I'm at, you better turn loose at daylight if you want to treat a squirrel the right time of the year because there's so many you know I hunt around a lot of sluos and there's these duck hunters and a lot of gun pressure and these squirrels are wild wild yeah which I've actually with this with this job I have I've actually found a lot more public land and we've started hunting

out of boats just to get away away from all the noise away from all the pressure you know and that's really where I like to take up on blood trails the stories don't end when the hunt is over they just get darker I've seen something in the road I I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag, and there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't.

This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. So where is the squirrel hunting? And what I mean by that, the squirrel hunting epicenter of the country, like, culturally, like, where are the most squirrel dogs?

Where are the best squirrel dogs? Where are the most squirrels? Where are there more hunters? Yeah. Like, where is, or is there a place, or is it all kind of just spread out through the east? There are squirrel hunters, like, from Oklahoma, north-torn. to Indiana and then east. So like the southeast, like go SEC,

there's a lot of squirrel dog people there. I talked to a man in Pennsylvania about once a month, and he is in true mountain country. I know a guy in New York with squirrel dogs. I've not heard of anyone like north of the border. I'm sure there's squirrels in Alaska and Canada. I'd love to go up there. Like me and myself, I've been in the Mississippi Delta.

I've been in the Mark Twain in Missouri, land between the lakes and Kentucky's a good time. Upper Peninsula of Michigan's a good time. Arkansas has game, and that's kind of where I hang out. There's no really no reason for me to leave Arkansas. What about numbers of squirrel hunters? Where do you, like in the people you interact with, like where? I have more friends out of state that I talk to daily than I do at home because, you know, like-minded things.

I'm going to say like the leader in number of squirrel hunters will probably be Mississippi. Really? Yeah, and I'm a huge Mississippi fan. Okay. There's a lot, a lot of Mississippi. You know, the guy that got me into squirrel hunting is from Mississippi? Cool, yeah. Traitry.

Gotcha. The Mississippi Delta is a good time for sure. And a lot of that depends on the water situation. Is it flooded? Is it not flooded? You know, when did the, like at home right now, the water's going down, finally, on our refuges. Like a little rain's not hurting right now.

And I know what's coming. It's about to get dusty dry. But like, if they're not pumping things off down there, you know, they may not have a great year. So if timber's, stays flooded it's not going to produce that well okay tell me about your hunting schedule throughout the year like when do you when do you start hunting so so like i sold my jips sassy right after christmas and i bred her her first heat and i had a litter of seven six or

trans squirrels i kept one i call her up she was born in august so she's um 10 months old right now she is a deep and lonely dog like today she's six 700 to find a squirrel a lot of that's hopperness I'm not trying to go that far right now. I also have a four-month-old pup named Nova that's about a 50-yard dog like hanging around me. I'm just not doing much right now. Like it rained Wednesday, and the wife was like,

oh, man, it cooled down. The thermometer says 81 degrees. And like, I wasn't even done making my PB&J. I was like, be back, got to go. And I went and turned my pup loose, you know. But I'm going to get fired up about mid-September. It's still dry. It's still hot.

And I'm going to make a tree or two. Let's end on a good note. and I'm not really doing a whole lot until mid-October and then it's go time. After January, squirrels get pretty hard to tree. I'm sure it's the same way here. They're dinner, predators, squirrels get pretty hard to tree. And then to build on that, like, my oldest two kids are sports players.

So we're busy, spring softball, jace is a basketball player. I don't have time to hunt in February. So pretty much September, January is my window. September through January. I'll do a little bit in the spring. I love to go to the Mark Twain late mate. and hunt opening weekend. Such a good time.

Short timber, which I don't get to hunt ever. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a pretty good time up there. Okay, so lay out for people that have never even done it and don't have any familiarity with the types of squirrel dogs. So we use that phrase, squirrel dog, squirrel dog. What dogs would fit into that category that could be squirrel dogs?

So you have Fosts. You have. mountain cures, you have treeing curs or treeing fists. And what that means is if you take a cur or a fist and you add another breed to it, that's when we introduce the word tree. And then there's people squirrel hunting, walkers, black and tans, red ticks, plots, any kind of hound. A hound. There's also a breed of dog called a laca.

And maybe I'm saying that right. These dogs don't bark much tree. They look like sled dogs. And the guys that squirrel hunt them, kill a pile of squirrels with them. I've never been with one. And I am very open-minded and I like to try new things, but I cannot get behind squirrel hunting a long-haired dog. Yeah. It's the only ick I have in life, I think. That and red waspers, but it's just, yeah, so that's the categories. Okay. And then you have bloodlines in each, in each category, you know. Okay. So let's talk about

feasts. Okay. Let's go ahead and start there. Let's roll our sleeves up. Okay. Everybody thinks that a breed of dog is just like a UKC like, yeah, blue tick or, you know, poodle or Labrador, UKC bread. You breed, it's, you know, a full bread lab to a full bread lab and you get a full bread lab litter. Yeah. Describe to me what a feist is. In my opinion, a fist is a dog that trees or chases.

game under 30 pounds under 18 inches that is a fist that is a that is a that is a squirrel dog fice now so it is not that's what that this explains why i've got a fice out here that has white legs and yeah a little bit of brindle and then i've got some that are almost black yeah like they they look different yeah they do um in my so if you've got so like you've got oh side job there and she's a fost. Her mother is half her, but O'Sage is so small that she measures for a fist. So if you a-eyed her, if you artificially inseminated her to a walker hound, a 60-pound walker hound, and those pups were half-fist, half-walker, and they're under 30 pounds,

that is a fist. There's still a fist. A fist is not really a breed of dog. It's a category of dog. Yes, sir. You nailed it. Correct. Okay.

That's the clear. Yeah. And I wanted to say that because there's also a lot of different kinds of feists. Right. Right. What are the different kinds? So people call treeing fiesce and mountain fists this or that because they have an agenda. A mountain fice group wants a small, pricier dog that these guys know there's no hounder bird dog in this.

So we're going to call these mountain fists. We want these to be mountain fiest. Tree and fice guys can't come. A fist is a fist, no matter what's in it. Okay, so there's a mountain fist, which a mountain fist might look almost like a... Like a terrier type, type situation. A lot of times lighter color, even solid colored dog, under 18 inches, under 30 pounds, might have a saddleback with like...

Be red or might be light colored, lemon drop color. Even jet black, possibly. Really? Yeah. Uh-huh. Or white and ticked up, maybe. But that mountain fist is... clearly not going to have any hound in it.

Yes, sir. Is that, and that would have been people that were trying to kind of make a breed a dog. Correct. Correct. So my friend Todd Cowes and Bitesville has a lot to do with almost everything to do with what your dogs are. Todd calls his dog's feasts. That's what they are. They are Brindle and they are, most of them are under 20 pounds.

His, in my opinion, his best dog is the dog he calls moon pie. One of the best I've seen go, she weighs like 14 pounds. That is tiny. We've come up to water and like I look back and Todd's got her like a football, like walking across water so you don't have to swim and then just drop her back down. But yeah, so his bloodline of fests are called booster bred fists. And he has not brought in outside influence of any other dog. He has line bred his fists.

That's what it is. Everything has the same relatives, but he has not dipped out of, other stuff. You said him, he's not got any cur or got any hound or bird dog and added in that. Now, okay, so with those dogs, tell me the pros and cons of a little big dog like that.

I heavily opinionated. Like, you've seen the meme where the guy's standing up and they've got like swords at his throat. Yeah. Like, that's how I feel like, you can put yourself in danger with this answer. Yeah, yeah.

Like, I hope no one throws a brick through my window. Well, Tell us what he really thinks about. Small feasts. A small feasts is going to hunt close. He's going to be within two, three hundred yards most of the time. A small feist isn't going to tree very hard. And when I say tree very hard, I refer to that as barks per minute.

That dog might bark 30 to 40 times per minute to where a cur or a tree incur or a hound is going to give you like 120 a minute. Me personally, like, when I get treeed, I want you to know where I'm at and you to know where I'm at and Donald Trump to know. I want everyone to know Tyler's right there. Like, I don't want to walk in there guessing, like, wonder where my dog's at. The Garmin says he's tree, but I don't hear it. That's my preference.

Fis are smart. Okay. So I have seen, I have been with people who hunt fys and maybe we, like, hey, man, meet me at the gas station at six. We're going to go hunting. And we get there, and you know what a December morning can do. The temperature falls, the wind picks up, and games not moving. And I have seen dogs that will go try for 20 minutes and they're like, okay, squirrels aren't moving, Dad, I'm going to hang out with you.

And people will tell you like, hey, they're not moving, so we're going to go to the truck, we're going to go home. That's okay. I don't want that. I want to, I get more satisfaction off of knowing what my dog can do when things are tough. You know what I'm saying? So that is the, to me, that is the biggest con of a fist. If squirrels are moving and you and I are, man, we've had a great week at work and we want to go kill some squirrels. We're going to make some dumplings for the, you know, the holidays.

You can't beat them. You cannot beat them. And a good fice is going to be treed. There's not any doubt. You said it was a con. You're saying, what are you saying about that bad morning? A fice is not going to treat them? Yes, sir.

They're going to quit. Okay. The 90% get out right now. Just get out. I got a fice of mine. I've never done that in my life. 90% of them are going to. And that's all right.

Like, okay, it's not working out. So what would the pros be? So why would... A pro of a fice, obviously other than the brains, is they are so gamey that they are going to tree squirrels with more senses than a hound or a cur. They're going to use their ears, nose, eyes, everything. So, like, you go on a windy day,

and leaves are shaking like that fice is watching. You know, they are really tuned in with that branch that's shaking up there. You just holistically cannot be a fice for killing squirrels. Like if you come over in December, and I hope you do, to my area, and we go squirrel hunting the bottoms, I'm leaving my stuff at home. Because if we're going to kill squirrels, I've got squirrel dogs, yeah. But we're not going to tree near the amount.

Like the refuge that I hunt the most, I call it rainy break. I named my second son after that. I love it that much. I will go meet Todd Coe's in the morning. Like, we're there. Hey, like, I'm going over here. I'm like, cool. I'm going over here.

This month. He's going to come back with 25. I may not even carry a gun. If I do, I'm going to come back with 10. So what it is. He's got fice and you don't and you, and I don't understand. I know that sounds wild. I want a bigger dog with more tree power and more endurance.

Now, is that because you're more competition-oriented than pleasure hunting? Yeah, at this point in life I am. I love to kill squirrels. So a feist, my tree of squirrel, and it timber out, and he's going to stay on it, and you're going to kill that squirrel? Yeah. You want a dog that's just going to go in and be for sure certain,

and tree one and stay there? My best friend in the world, Jamie Bollinger, he's in London, Kentucky. He told me one time, like, quit squirrel hunting with a shotgun. I'm like, dude, I've got to. No, you don't. He said, walk in with a 22 and shoot that squirrel. it's going to fall right on that dog's head. That's going to keep that dog tight.

If we walk up to a tree like over here and the squirrels timbering 40 yards this way and we're shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting over here, distractions. It's great for killing squirrels. It's not for the game I'm playing currently. I got you. So, yeah, so it's a competition thing. And like I said earlier,

I've not been in a compliment in nearly three years. But it's just the style that you want. That's the style of dog I want right now. Yeah. Okay. Does that make sense to you, John? Yeah. I'm contradicting myself big time, and I know that when I say that.

Well, no, I, it makes sense what you're saying. I just, your original description of Feist, I wasn't sure if, and I realized not everybody wants a small dog that hunts close, but I tell you what, around here, boy, I don't know how anybody would want one to go over 250 yards. As I was driving yesterday, I was like, I definitely know why he hunts off of me. and I know why he's loving these fives because if I had to squirrel hunt here, I would be at your door every more like Clay can I borrow a mule because this is, I'm not from Hill Country.

So yeah, yeah. And there's guys in the bottoms where I live that hunt fison. Like I said, I love them. But in a competition, they're not going to be able to compete with the other dogs. Like, on any given weekend, there are 40 to 50 competition hunts going on in the world,

in America, throughout different states. 41, now the Bear Gries class. Now that the Bear Grease classic is coming up. So like on any given Saturday, there's probably two to three hundred dogs entered in a competition hunting. Three of them are going to be fices. Really? Maybe. Dead.

Give it. Maybe. If it's an open hunt. So let me build on that. An open hunt is where bring what you want. Let's go. I don't care how your dog's paper. I don't care how it's bread.

Yeah. It's fine. Whatever. Chihuahua. Whatever. Let's go. Wouldn't a chihuahua be a feist? Correct.

Yeah. Good see. That's what it is. We treat squirrels. Yeah. And then like if, like I have mountain curs right now, that's, that's kind of what I'm doing. I'm kind of enjoying that. There are cur only hunts.

There are fysed only hunts. Yeah. I want to hunt against everything. So, yeah. There's a boy in B.B., Arkansas, great friend of mine, Gary Key, and he's got a fice that is half walker, half fist. And she is about 25, 26 pounds. She is the only one I've ever. ever seen that will go a mile to tree of squirrel, she'll be on the tree like a hound, and

she's ever breath tree. She is. But she's still got some of the positive traits of a fice, like using eyes and ears. Like, we, we have went before, like, we got, we got in this, like, I don't own a boat. I'm broke. I can't. So we got my canoe, and we can get on this island. How can a good squirrel dog man be broke?

Come on, Tyler. Anyway, you should see my kids eat. But, no, we get in my canoe and we get on this island. And she is literally every 40 yards. Boom, boom, boom. Like, I've not even bent down. to pick this one up and rack another one in my chamber and she's treated again and it's it's just crazy but she is one out of 200 that i've seen like that really and i told garrett like um enjoy this

he's like me and like you he likes to deal with a young dog like you know and i told him i enjoy this because you might not see it again you know it's it's it's too hard to replicate in breeding it's it's a wow factor that you hope for when you're breeding but you can't do it every time. Like I seen a video, and this is kind of going off on left field, I've seen a video and these guys have got these setters and this dude like throws a wing out there and there's like eight pups that like walk up instinctively

and I'm pretty sure they're still nursing. A squirrel dog, the breed holistically today is better than it was 15 years ago. There are more like back in the day, you got a litter of six like two of them probably going to be pretty good dogs. Another one might tree. The other ones don't.

Squirrel dogs today are better, but they are behind bird dogs. I think a squirrel dog has the worst job of any hunting dog. Because, like, you sit in a deer stand and watch a squirrel. Like, dude, they're everywhere. How it pegs it. Like, it is in this tree. I'm directly under it is insane to me. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, I'm so fascinated by it. Maybe I'm small-minded, but I just like, how did you know to find this? One of the great mysteries of the world. Yeah, I mean, honestly. And so that's just, I mean, How a squirrel dog knows to do that is just beyond. It really is pretty fascinating. I agree with you, just having hunted with dogs for a lot of different kinds of games.

Yeah. From bear to deer to coons to hogs. A squirrel dog, my dad was over here the other day and he was looking at Osage and he said, boy, she's got a real good nose, I bet, doesn't she? And I said, well, for a squirrel dog, she does. But she doesn't have a nose compared to a hound. And he was like, what do you mean? And I said, imagine having a hound that could smell where a squirrel was six hours ago.

And what that squirrel, the tracks that squirrel made six hours ago until now, no telling where it's at. You want that squirrel dog to have the right mix of. Hot track, cold track. Well, I mean, not even barking unless the thing was probably on the ground, I don't know, 10 minutes ago. Am I right? What do you think? Yeah. No, you've nailed it.

You want a squirrel dog to have. have the mix of, I know they're moving. I'm going to go find a hot one versus they're not moving. I need to gamble on this scent that is three hours old. And the mixture of that is a fine line based on the day. So say you and I. I've never thought about it like that. Oh, yeah.

That they're, that a dog is actually calibrating like, boy, there's not many out today. I guess I better tree. I guess I know there's one, was one here two and a half hours ago. Versus he goes out and he's just like slam dunking hot ones. that's so and anyone that tells you like hey I know when squirrels are moving is a line because I have laid awake in bed at nine and thought while we squirrels moving at 2 p.m. today but they weren't at 6 a.m. Like I don't understand it. And they they so yeah so like a dog. So that's where you get into like so say we go to a competition hunt man and it's just raining. It's raining. And it's 15 degrees. Like a hound is still going to get treated. A fice does not. We're not going to look at any. anything when we get there unless we get lucky and beat it out of a snag. But it's what game do you want to play, you know? But yeah, you're right.

I mean, they've got to figure out what kind of track do I need to work for today. Man, okay, that describes it so well. And to build on that, like, here's the scenario. Say us three are in a competition. We've got a 60-minute cast. If you have a dog that knows and I have a dog that's younger and, like, I don't know if I need to try to gamble today or go find a hot one. And he makes two trees.

He's beat me. Time's wasted. He's already done it. And mine's not smart enough to know, like, here's what I got to do today. So, I mean, having one that can differentiate that is so big. And that's what drives me, you know. Okay. That's what drives me.

Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right?

That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did. And you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. The original question I was asking you to describe the breeds and describe the feasts.

Yeah. Okay. And, okay. Not bad. No, no, no, no. What? You described before we started that the feist world is kind of like the mafia. Yeah.

describe that to me before we get on to the other breeds. So that's the direction we're going. The fysk guys are like, oh, man, how do I want to wear this? So just tell it like it is, I'm just going to. There are different bloodlines of fysse. There are Mullins Fist, Boosterbread Fies, champ Fist, Williams Fist, Barger Fist, McAndrew Fist. I'm sure that I've missed a real prominent one. Some of those guys are line breeding their dogs. They, Todd Coase is Fies derived from Streak. Streak is the most famous mountain cur producer ever. He was a cur.

Todd has line bred these dogs and when you line breed, you're going to lose size. It's the same with any animal. Really? I don't know genetics, but that's what I'm told. So Todd has stayed straight on that. Then there are guys like the Champ Bread Dogs. Champ himself was half bird dog. He came from Alma, Arkansas.

Bill Douglas James Quick. Those are two guys that really pioneered the champ line. I hunted with Bill Douglas one time. Did you really? I did. The best dog man I've ever seen. Yeah, bar none. I could get on that story too.

So those guys might have added something different. They don't like to intertwine based on the talent of their dogs. So they bring up these different associations of Fists to fit what their talent is. You see what I'm saying? And yeah, so they... So they get real territorial. Yeah, very. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're fighting over a food bow. Yeah. I've got better. Well, I've got better. Well, we use these rules.

We use these rules. I'm kind of a booster fast, man. Same. To my core. I don't hunt with Todd as much as I used to. I think I could call him today and be like, Todd, I've got a pup. I really need some help. I need to kill his dogs and squirrels.

And he would drop what he was doing and come. help me. He does not have what I am truly after, but I have a lot of respect and love for his dogs. Yeah, I mean, he's just got a style of dog. He has a, he's pioneered it. He has stayed on the course and he has replicated for years. He knows exactly what buttons to push with each dog because they're all the same. You see what I'm saying? That's, that's what's amazing about what Todd's done. Yeah, that is cool. Yeah. Okay. His cheeks will be red when he's hearing this because I've not spoken that nicely to him in a decade. So in person.

That was your one freebie. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've told a lot of people about Todd Coles because a lot of people ask me about dogs and I've just been like, hey, contact Todd Coles. Yeah. I try to get with him like once a year.

It didn't happen last year. We had too much going on. And he has this thing he calls booster fest, which like he gets in this certain location at this time of year and all the guys with a booster dog pull up. and like over here like a dude's on a black stone like cooking up some breakfast and over here yeah oh it's a party yeah and then um like it's kind of like the bear greece classic it's kind of like the bergge's classic yeah so they're gonna not as good yeah no no different they don't have t-shirts yet and you guys do so of course we do that's yeah yeah inter promo code 100 pending but uh that's my catchphrase yeah

and then they're just going to disperse and there maybe be like six six seven groups of guys hunting together And then come back and like there's 200 squirrels that they've got to clean. Wow. Okay. For the non, for the non-squareled dog hunter. Yeah. You know, I'm sure there's lots of people listening who don't have a frame of reference to put it in. Sure.

When you're going out squirrel hunting, how many dogs are you normally taken? One. Just one. That's what I like to do. If us three go hunting and you've got old spot and I've got old brownie, like why do we want to take opportunity away from each other? You see what I'm saying? Let's all be together at the tree

Because your dog's gonna go over here in tree And I'm gonna be over here in tree We're not gonna see each other all morning So why are we hunting two dogs? That's what I like to do I want to go to the tree and talk with you guys Every tree I walk to is like the first one I walked. What's this tree look like?

Is there a vine? Is it got a hole in it? It's got a nest. What's it look like? How many squirrels are in that tree? Because I don't know about here But when squirrels are running in my country You might shake the vine in like four

It go fom Like in one tree. Right. Yeah, I want to be there making those memories with you guys. Okay. I just, yeah, I hunt one at a time. Some guys will hunt two, you know, and we, my friend Travis Tate, when I was younger, he called me a soldier.

So a soldier in our lingo is someone that doesn't have a dog and is going to shake vines for Travis so he can shoot it. So you're like a footman, you know, so it depends on how many soldiers you have with you. Like, I love to go with one good dog and about five guys so we can surround that tree. Take turns shooting vines, man, make fun of each other when we miss. I mean, just what a time. Which inevitably happens if you're shooting a 20th especially. Especially, it doesn't matter why I'm shooting. The only flaw with the way that we hunt in big groups.

And it's like pros and cons. When we go, when we squirrel hunt on mules with a big group, which I think two years ago, we had 17 mules and like eight dogs out at the same time. Yeah. For dog work, it's not the best. You wouldn't want to bring. You're not promoting independence at that point. Yeah, yeah, and it's hard on all the dogs.

None of the dogs look as good as they would on their own. Some of the dogs, yeah, it's kind of chaos. But it's, you know, it's worth it for the amount of fun that you have. And there is enough difference in the dogs that everybody see in the difference. Yeah. And, you know, kind of maybe giving a hard time about this dog or that dog. Or maybe not. Really, when guys aren't making fun of your dog and he's doing bad or good,

you know that you're probably getting under their skin some way. And that's a thing, actually. Yeah. That's like a white glove to the face. Like if you're talking bad about my dog and we're out there together, like, oh, quit. You know. Here's the deal, though. I've never, I can meet a complete stranger and we go squirrel hunting together and then we're best friends.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Like, do you care if I ramble real quick? Ramble. The best killing I've ever been on. We are down south. I'm with my friend Travis, Joe Collier. and he's like, hey, I got some boys going to meet us in the slip.

We're getting in my boat. Travis always keeps like an 1860 ambush, like a tank. It's a barge. So six of us get in this boat, and we go to this island. I don't know, these guys, like, from Adam. We killed 42 squirrels in a little under an hour. Oh, wow. Best hunting I've ever been on.

And it gets, it's getting dark. So we get on the boat, and we're getting ready to, like, to head back to the slip. And the sky's, like, orange, pink, red. And ducks are, like, heading to the roost. And I was like, Traff, kill that motor. And we just sat there and just kind of looked up and, like, took in the blessings, took in like nature. Like, how lucky are we right now? And every time I see one of those guys, those memories fled back.

I've never had a squirrel hunt, even if we don't have a great hunt. I've never had one where I don't make memories. Yeah. Yeah. So that's just kind of what's, I don't do this for the dog work as much as I do the people. Like, I'm in a group. I'm in a group text. I'm in like five of them, actually.

but the main one, Justin Hitchens is in Ohio, Lane Parks, Tennessee, Scott Cassiopo is in Mississippi, and then me and Garrett are in Arkansas, and I talk to those guys daily. And, man, I really care about what's going on their lives. You know, we keep up with each other's kids. Like Hitchens is in Oklahoma right now on vacation. Lane's working, you know, we keep up with each other, Nathan Young. And that's just the camaraderie is so huge to me. Yeah.

And I'm sure you see that in your profession. You get to do, man, and I'm clapping for you guys so hard because you guys are doing all these different things. And that comes with meeting people, you know. So, yeah, just fellowship. That's really cool to hear you say that and to say that so well. Yeah. Thanks. That's.

I wrote that down before I got in here. Yeah. No, yeah, no. You know, squirrel hunting to the actual fundamentals of, of squirrel hunting and why it's exciting. Like I spent most of my life being real serious on big game hunting, which is almost entirely solo. Sure.

I mean, truly, like bow hunting white tails, most bear hunts, unless you're hunting with dogs, is going to be this, like, ultra solo hunt. And I do that almost instinctually. It's like I just have this drive to go that I just almost can't, quit. Yeah. When I go squirrel hunting,

I feel like I'm actually going to have fun. Yeah. There's no pressure. And when I started hunting with, and I didn't get squirrel dogs until, I mean, the squirrel dogs that I've got right now are the first ones I had.

Yeah. I've not been doing this my whole life. Gotcha. And when I got those dogs, I was, it touched the same places that having a coon dog and what I saw in the bear dog guys,

just on a smaller, much easier, more approachable scale. Like to go bear hunting with hounds, you got to go on an expedition. Yeah. Like you got to have a bunch of dogs. You got to have a good place. You got to have a bunch of ground. There's a lot at stake. It's hard.

And there's some wonderful things about bear hunting with hounds. Yeah. Never done it. Even a coon hunt. You got to go at night. It's a little wider scale. You need more land. a squirrel hunt has all the same positives of those things

but it's you can squirrel hunt on 40 acres no pressure anytime you can you can go on most public land in the country and not feel a ton of pressure I mean there are places where there's squirrel hunt pressure for sure my point is it's accessible and it is I was my mind was blown by how fun it is to walk up to a squirrel tree and to see a squirrel timbering out through. Yeah. We're shooting them, buddy. We're chasing them and shooting them.

Yeah. You know. Well, and there's no, like, you don't have to get new gear every year. Yeah. I mean, where what you want. Yeah, you've nailed it. I mean, I agree with you 100%. I have, like, a little thing, and I hope it's okay that I cite this,

but I have like a headshot album on my phone. Like, I hope the 22 most of the time. So, like, to get up and see a squirrel still, and I've got like a good rest. Man, I'm like, yes. Gotcha. So I take a lot of flack from Steve Rinella for carrying a shotgun. Yeah. Squirrel hunting with dogs.

And, hey, I get it. I prefer one. 100%. Yeah. How often would you say that the squirrels that your dogs are tree and are set and still where you can shoot them with 20? So, like, we're in the South. Like, it could be mid-December and the leaves aren't fully off yet. So, I mean, and here's like a whole new thing.

Guys are using thermals now. I don't have one. I don't have one. using thermal monoculars to find squirrels. I'll have one someday. But where I'm at, like, the trees are super tall, man. So I'm not going to walk in there alone and see that squirrel. I've got to move him if I want to kill him or if I want to show him to a judge of a

complaint. You might be treeed on a three-foot diameter at the base, 120-foot tall oak. Yeah, and 20-foot over there, there's like another one and then another one. So those branches are, I've got to move him. So, yeah, like shotguns for sure. in that type deal. They're not going to set still very long where I'm at.

The only time a squirrel is going to set still where I'm at is in the spring and it's a young, dumb squirrel. You see what I'm saying? They just kind of lock up. They don't know the timber year. So you're carrying a 22, though? I carry a 22 because I know myself. And if I'm alone, squirrel hunting alone's tough.

I don't care where you are. What kind of timber you're in? If I'm alone, I'm going to walk up there and just be like, bam, bam, bam, bam with my shotgun to try to move him. Yeah. I'm just wasting loads trying to skis. at or that dude. Yeah.

And that gets expensive because I love to pull the trigger. Yeah. Bad. And I'm the worst shot you'll ever meet. But, uh, it, and here's another thing. If I find that squirrel with my 22, he's dead. If he's sitting still, he's dead. Um, and he's going to fall straight down and that help keep my dog tight.

I don't want them timbering and going with them. Yeah. So it's kind of what, what do you want to do, you know? Yeah. But no, if us three go hunting, like you guys come on and us three, I'm carrying a shotgun. If we're killing, I'm carrying a shotgun. Okay. Okay.

There are a lot of times. Are you shooting a 12 gauge, 20 gauge? 12 gauge. No, 12 gauge with like high brass sixes or fives. And have you guys heard of Rob Roberts? He's there out of baseball. He built me a choke tube. Yeah, I shoot a banally super 90.

And that's what's worked for me because that stuff is so tall. But yeah. And another thing is like a lot of times when I'm raising a dog, I mean, a young dog needs squirrels, for sure. You got to give them a few. But when I get them to a certain point, I may not even carry one. matter of fact most of the time i don't and in fact i've hunted monday i've hunted tuesday i've hunted wednesday i've got ball practice so i don't go friday i want to reward that dog so i'm gonna type my 22 i might only kill one or two like if you look at my instagram or you look at any of my posts

a lot of times you'll see my dog and me in two or three squirrels that is sufficient okay i don't want to clean over that yeah maybe maybe they treat a bunch more but you didn't shoot them yeah i got you That is sufficient to me. Yeah, you don't have to kill them all. But now if y'all are like Tyler, I'm coming over. Let's go. Let's get it. Yeah.

I'm going to have like three boxes of Rio Blues in my back and maybe like some in my front pocket and look like a scarface out there. Like, yeah, I'm bringing the shotgun. Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry, I keep getting on rents. No, no, no.

So the other kinds of dogs, we've only talked about feasts. That was an hour ago when we started that. Yep. Yeah. All right. Mountain Curse. Mountain curs. Mountain curs.

That's what I'm doing right now. They are a little bit bigger than a fiss, 30 to 45-ish pounds. Now, Mountain Curs, if you have an original mountain-kir-bred dog with papers, it has been bred to another car. It is not outside. So they are doing the same thing

some of the fos guys are doing both with cars. Just a little bit taller dog. Yeah. A little bit more. And that dog is almost always going to look about the same. It's going to be a Brindle dog. There are some Kimmer mountain cars that are yellow. And there's some, like here's the deal, dude.

All mountain cars have some hound in them. It's just what it is. Somebody slips some in there. It happened. So there might be some black. There might be some white patches of white socks. But Brindle's pretty much the deal. They bobbing most of their tails?

Yeah. Mountain cars. Very few mountain cars are born matril bobbed. Lots of five star because we've been line breeding this trait for so long. They're just losing their tail. Yeah, I guess. I guess. Yeah.

But culturally, you're cutting a tail of a mountain fist. Do you ever have any long-tail mountain fist? I have not seen a long-tail mountain fist. It just doesn't happen. I've not, yeah, I'm sure it does. I've not seen it. I've seen some long-tailed tree and curs that have a lot of hounder bird dog in them that are white. A white tail is okay with me on a heavy hound-bred dog.

A mountain cur, I do not want to tell. Isn't it funny, the tail thing? Because if you gave me the best coon dog in the country and it had a bob tail, I would be like, I'm out. No. That dog's supposed to have a tail. Yeah. Yeah, a coon dog is supposed to have a tail. Like, I just, I wouldn't even get excited about walking to the tree.

I mean, I'd just be like, I mean, it's a bobtail dog. I mean, yeah, sure, we got a tree. We got a coon. But with a squirrel dog, I can't imagine my feasts with long tail. No. Like, I want to see that tail doing like this. Yeah, that little nub. A little nub.

Just going back and forth. I don't want a brindled dog to have a tail. It's just not for me. Yeah. Yeah. Any Brindle dog. Any brindle, including the big ones with long ears. Oh, including the hound?

I don't want to plot, a hound with the tail. Really? So I'm different there. Just because they're black and brendle. Okay, I see. Walker dog, a black and tan, that's okay. And I guess it's like when you buy a pickup and you decide, like, what kind of running boards you want or like, do you want a tent windows? It's all it.

It's just like, this is what I want. Like, I don't like halapinos on my nachos. You guys know what I mean. I'm getting a plot this month. Yeah. And it will have a long tail. Okay. Well.

It's not Brendel, though. It's pretty dark. Yeah. I mean, it's got Brindle in it. That's okay. That's okay. It's going to appear almost black. Yeah.

As Roy Clark said, the correct color for a plot is when you're about 30 feet away, you think it's black. Right. When you walk up to it, you realize it's actually got some brindle. And I like what that is. I call that a black brindle. Yeah. That's what I call it. Yeah.

And I love that color. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so Mountain Curse. That's what you're hunting. I'm hunting. Are you hunting original Mountain Curse? Like registered original Mountain Curse? I have two right now. Like I said, Up was off of Sassy. She is a Thundersport Bread Mountain Curr. Okay. So Mr. Allen Franklin in Ohio has been breeding these dogs. So top and bottom, her pedigrees are a lot close to the same.

And then I have a dog I called Nova, who could be the most natural I've ever had. Like that's a big statement for me Like maybe A man in Louisiana called me Ducey Ducody He's okay Never met the dude He's like hey I've got a litter

I've got a puppy I want to send you to female I'm a female guy You will not see a male at my house preference So I'm like cool Send it up here So like this pup has trade

Five squirrels And it's not been alive 150 days on this earth Like just naturally Like I took her the other day And she's just hunting Hunting and nose like Locked straight up

and her back in like sets down like a cutting horse and she's just like oh oh oh oh and I'm like I'm doing the math I can't do it quick enough 150 days is four or five months yeah yeah okay so she's five months old right now no she's not she's still four months old four months old four months so maybe my mouth sucks sorry 120 but it's already tree and a square I'm just like straight up like and it's innocent it's pure it's not been around to me long enough for me to put any kind of influence on it. Like that is what it is. Yeah. I've not, I've taught it. Original mountain car. Yeah. Yeah. Um, here's another thing. It is built. It has the confirmation of a male dog. Huge long snout, very wide chest, huge front feet, big hawks. I can see every muscle

on her already. And I am very fascinated with her right now. She has, she, she, she's the type of pup, like, and man, I've just gotten so lucky because I, I have went through some pups that didn't turn out that I don't talk about. But she's the type of pup that you're like, okay, if I take off the day before Thanksgiving and the day after Thanksgiving, that's five days of hunting, but I only have to use two days of PTO. Like, I'm getting ready to lose a crop over this pup. Like, I'm ready.

It's fixing to me on and pop. Nova is what you call her. I named her Nova because my wife wouldn't let me call either of my daughter's Nova. I just, I thought, I thought it was a cool name, Nova. Yeah. I like it. It's a good kind of like one-syllable dog name. No, is what I've been calling her.

On paper, it's Nova. But I'm definitely a one-syllable guy. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But, yeah. I am. Okay.

That's dangerous calling a dog no, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then telling it no. Yeah. Yeah. My wife actually brought that up. So.

Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love my. because it's easy to use. I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for.

I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out prime cuts.

at Phelps game calls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. I don't really talk to my dogs out in the woods.

I don't hoop and holler. I'm not like, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up. Like, unsnap it. I want you to go get trade, and then when you get trade, I'm going to put my leash on you. tree and like pat pat the job and that there's not much conversation there really yeah i don't want to influence that dog at all if i have to that that that way if it's time for me to influence it's

going to pay attention to me because it's not used to me hooping and hollering with me gotcha um you're not going to waste that communication with it on something trivial and maybe i think too much but i i had a man tell me a man named dean right so i go i go to the world hunt in like 2017 or something. And it's my first time. I've never been to a world hunt. It's in a land between the legs in Kentucky. And I walk in and this guy's sitting over there by himself, man.

And he's got like the greasiest hair and like just like oil stains and holes in his pants. I'm like, who's that? Like, his name's Dean. He's been in the game for like 40 years. No one likes him. I heard 40 years. So I get up and I walk straight to him. Like, okay, this guy's going to teach me something.

And we get to talk and, you know, in about two minutes in, I realize he's just the world's giant teddy teddy bear i mean he's just the nicest dude ever um maybe maybe he just comes off it's like anyway so so we get to talking and he's like look i watched one of your videos and you were kind of like really talking to your dog quite a bit of the tree he's like why i was like well i was just excited he was like i'm gonna tell you something son he's like you yell to a dog and you whisper to a dog and see which one that dog has to work harder to pay attention to and i was like wow yeah so when the time comes that I have to yell at that dog, he's going to listen to me because I've not done it its whole life.

Maybe that's a thing. Maybe it isn't. You know, there's a correlation in that with training a mule. Sure. Like if you want a mule to be soft and super responsive to you. Yeah. If the first time you step on it, you start yanking around its head and spurring it and like basically in its language yelling at it,

you will never give it a chance to be soft. But the best mule guys are the ones that are given the most nuanced cues, and that animal is just like bouncing. And so when you do have to get loud with it and not loud verbally, but like in the cues that you're giving it, oh, it's going to come unglued and do what you want it to do. Maybe my body language is a little bigger. My tone of voice is a little larger.

But just like that mule, like it's going to pay attention because it's not seen that before. Right. And then you're speaking my language right now. And then it moves and responds off very gentle cues. Yeah. As opposed to an amateur riding, which I have been in the squirrel dog world and the mule world, you know, yelling at your dog or, you know. I have seen, and I've seen some guys just absolutely hooping and hollering at their dog. And the dog is just like so guarded, so jaded, you know, just walls built up.

And I'm like, I don't know that you're going to fix this issue because that dog is not. paying attention to you. It's just trying to literally survive this scenario. So yeah, I don't know how I got on a tear, but yeah, listen to Ding tell me that went went like a long way. So when I'm in the woods, like, until I get this dog solid, like I may, we may be high-fiving or something or laughing. The dog's not going to pay attention to me. It never has because I've been so quiet. Like literally, I have three commands that I, like, come here, stay treed and go get treated. That's all I want you to do. And it sounds so simple, but repetition that I unsnap you, you're treeed, you stay there till I pull you off the tree,

we're done. Those three things, you do that for like 15, 16 months, boom, that's what that dog is. Wow. So keeping it all the same is so big. But here's the cool part. So like Bear and Shepherd. Yep. So they are like, I was looking at some of your posts.

Like any father wants their kid to be successful humans. And like those two, like obviously are killing it. Like, Bear is out here casually digging Bear Pits with his own homemade bow. And Shep's one of the better ballplayers in the state right now, I'm told. So they're similar, but they're probably so different, right? I know my kids are. So every pup I get, I'm like, what are you going to be? How are you going to act?

What is your demeanor? And maybe I shouldn't compare children and squirrel dogs, but I do. But I do. Like, honestly, like, my little boy, Rainy, needs whooped four times a day. Like, probably will be in jail by 15. Now, don't say that, Dad. Come on out. My oldest boy, Jace, I can get, like, eye-level.

And, like, Jase, I really didn't like the way that went. Here, let's do this. And he'll melt. I mean, that's my daughter's the same way. I mean, they're so, so different. And I think that's wonderful. Me and my brothers are different. Yeah.

And I think that that's what, you know, God made us all different. and there's these different genes and different ideologies and, you know, what works for you may not work for me. And that just fascinates me. I wish that I would have went and got like a background in genetics in something to understand it more. Yeah. Because things like that really tickle me. Yeah. You know.

Man, I'll tell you what, dog breeders to me have, are like Mendel, the famous geneticist that learned about like this monk. Yeah. In the, I don't know when it was, the 1700s, whenever it was. He, like, was, like, breeding flowers and, like, pollinating, hand pollinating flowers and getting different crosses. And basically, he mapped out this, like, genetic architecture that, you know, people still use today. What I've seen with dog breeders that are, like, dead serious, like, they kind of have a functional knowledge of genetics that is, pretty amazing. Yeah.

And in some ways, I don't want to say it's supernatural, but I guess that's a good word. Yeah. Like, just like instinctual. Yeah. Like an instinctual,

like if you do, if you input this into this line, it's going to produce this. Yeah. It's just pretty fascinating. To the guys that are really good. And all those guys, too,

if they're really being honest, and most of them are pretty humble, too. Some of them aren't. But they, they say, oh man, we produced a lot of error before we got to this. But once we learned this, we kept going. And I mean, yeah.

So like you and I are like, I'm sitting here like, I'm so thankful for your 40 years of work here. Yeah. I'm thankful for what you've done. Now I have something to go off of. Do you have a desire as much as you love it and are interested in to like have a line of dogs? I don't. I don't. I want to clap for the men who have put in the work and I want to give them the credit and

hope that I can breed that stuff together, which is what they've done, because it's worked. So why do I want to change it? You see what I'm saying? I've made three crosses my whole life. I think that's awesome. But I don't want to try to recreate. So what's your strength? Is it handling dogs?

Raising starting dogs? Starting dogs is my strength. Yeah. That's why people would have given you a dog and said, hey, I want you to have this dog. Yeah. And I've gotten really lucky. and made contact with the right people and got the right line of dogs

and it's just worked out. I'm 34. I know a man in Oklahoma, Keith Sutton Miller, he's 76 and can get through the woods better than you two and me. Like the dude's a mountain goat. And like I pray that I'm fit enough and healthy enough and have the time to do this

for the next 34 years. I love it that much. But yeah, man, you get the right thing going. And it's just to me, there's nothing else important to me. now family obviously but like other than that I'm not wasting my time doing anything else like i could low-key be a like closet croppy fisherman i would love to be but i don't have time for it you got you got too you got too many dogs yeah and and what you said just a minute ago i wanted

to touch on that about you got to be brutally honest about what you've got yeah that's so true that's like i was raised by a perfect gregg asbury was a perfectionist is a perfectionist Happy birthday, Dad. Today's his birthday. Oh, wow. And he demanded that from his kids, his employees, blah, blah, blah. So honestly, I was about 30 years old until I appreciated that. I didn't like it.

And then I was like, so I over-analyze and like nitpick everything in my life. So I had a gyp a couple years ago that was everything I wanted her to be. Except she did not have any mouth. As a young dog, she just did not have that mouth. And I have to have it. I cannot hear very well. and I didn't breed her. And sometimes I think I should have.

Maybe the right stud could have brought it up. I've got a buddy that's got a dog that's really, really, really quick, but she will not stay on the tree. She's just going to follow that squirrel and we're not breeding her. I mean, to the right people, she'd be. You really know exactly what you want. Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah.

So, yeah, young dogs are my forte. I don't care about a five-year-old finished dog. I don't care. you guys have done your work like LeBron James what else has he got to prove to me like let's go to this next class yeah

so yeah that's me and I try to raise one one or two every year so man we're we've moved along um feist we don't have to go into as much detail

but I mean what other breeds we're still on that one question a hound or like a bird dog hound cross would be the other that there's a lot A lot of crossing and stuff. There's some dog pursuits, people get a big kick out of papers. I feel like the squirrel dog world is a little less interested in that.

The company that I like the most, NSD, has a junior futurity program. NSD stands for national sporting dog. They have DNA parentage in their papers. So that doesn't tell you like how much of what is in your dog. That just proves that my dog is off, this dog and this dog. Like, that is its parents. So if you pay that up and you get your dog in the junior program, it can hunt in junior hunts until it's three years old,

meaning only hunt against younger dogs. That is really the biggest thing going right now. But if you, if you, like I could call a guy right now, who I got off the phone with yesterday and be like, hey, I've got this dog, this is what she is. This is what you can do with her today. I don't have any papers. He don't care.

Yeah. We don't care. Like, most of the time I get puppy papers and I pull up, you know, I pay them up, do the swab the cheek thing, and I put that in my drawer. And then, like, I get ready to sell it. I'm like, crap, whatever than vapor. I don't care. Yeah.

I mean, it's nice to know. It's nice to be able to look back and see what was what, you know. Yeah. But, no, not a huge deal. Yeah. Interesting. Man, that's incredible. Yeah.

That's your, your passion and knowledge of what you're good at is unique. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Like I said, I've been watching you guys for a long time and just the things you guys are pursuing. Like, man, I'm clapping for y'all so hard because you guys are living the life and obviously very passionate about it. And, man, it's great to watch someone who's good at something exceeding it, you know, especially for a career.

And yeah, I can't wait to see what you guys do next. But I may be like a two. My wife doesn't call it my addiction. She calls it my affliction. affliction. Yeah. And I'm on the phone all the time with guys, and we're talking about this and that,

this dog and that dog. Yeah, it's just what drives me, man. And I love it so much. You know my buddy Michael Lanier? Man, I know the name. Sounds really familiar. I think he told me that he had communicated with you at something.

Michael, Michael has been my, I call him my squirrel hunting Jedi master. Yeah. Sounds like I did. I wish he could have been here today. Yeah. We rode mules yesterday afternoon, but Michael's a great guy.

I just wondered if you knew him. He's from the Batesville area, but... The name sounds so familiar, but it doesn't ring a bell. Yeah. Yeah, I talk to a lot of people through squirrel dogs, so lots of folks. Man. Okay, so the World Championship Squirrel Cookoff is coming up in September here in Arkansas, which we'll probably have Joe Wilson on here pretty soon to talk about that.

But me and Brent usually try to get up there. I wish we could have more of a squirrel. dog presence there. I mean, it's about cooking squirrels. You know, that's kind of the main emphasis there. It's a squirrel cooking competition. Yeah. We need to get like I don't

know. I don't know. They usually reach out to me for some meat yearly. And last year I gave, the year before I was able to give them quite a bit. I don't have any frozen this year. But what they're doing is so cool. I've never got to go. Yeah. Never got to go. Yeah.

So are they just like different dishes with squirrels? Well, there's 40 teams. So there's a cap on the amount of teams, but there's 40 teams. And they come from all over the country. Okay. I mean, like, even the world. At times there's been international teams.

But basically, everybody, each team usually has somebody that is like a legit chef. Yeah, yeah. And they'll just try to come up with the wildest plate combinations possible for squirrel. So it's not like squirrel. It's not like squirrel and dumplings. Right. It's like, I can't even, I couldn't even pronounce probably. Did you get to do any sampling?

Oh, yeah. That's part of the event. Yeah. Is that the guys like, you know, starts at like 9 o'clock and the judgeings at like 1 o'clock or something. And in the afternoon, and even as they're cooking, they're giving away free samples to the public. It's a pretty unique event. I mean, they give away stuff until they run out. Yeah.

So you're walking around. And so they're cooking for the judges. So they're trying to make like two plates for the judges. But all the teams are encouraged to just cook a bunch. And so they give their two plates. But then they give away the rest of it. And it's a whole meal. It's not just like, you know, barbecue squirrel.

It's like we're having barbecue squirrel with a side of this. And I mean, it's like a legit cooking competition. Some guys go. like super classy and have some kind of like French cuisine you can't pronounce other guys but I remember one year there was a team that like uh mocked a chick-fil-a meal with squirrel with squirrel but but it was like you know like waffle fries homemade Polynesian sauce and a sandwich that looked just like a chick-fil-a sandwich and you know like they tried that that was their schick is that you know it's like squirrel filet you know um so it's pretty fun that's Sounds awesome. It's pretty fun. I've got like two squirrel dishes. I give a lot of mine away.

There's a guy that has a food truck in Cave City barbecue, and I'll call him, like, hey, on my way, got you 10. And he's like, here's a rack of ribs. And we just shake hands. Like, if I don't have time to skin them or I don't want to, you know. But yeah, I would love to see some of those dishes. That's obviously like looking at me. I'm a foodie. So I love new dishes with squirrel would be welcome.

Yeah. How so cool. Well, is there anything else where we were supposed to cover Josh? Not today. Tyler, man, been a pleasure. Yeah, one of these days we're going to go squirrel hunting. Yeah, for sure. I appreciate you guys having me on.

Had a great time, yeah. I would love for you guys to come over and hunt in my country and, you know, see what it's like in the bottoms. Yeah. Yeah. I know it's, it's, I'm told by guys that know that there's way more squirrels over there. It's just better.

Population is key. Yeah. It's just the population, yeah. And it's flat walking, which never hurts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, man, I could keep talking about squirrel dogs. We'll have to have you back on at some point. Sure. Sure. But it was great to meet you guys. Great to come out here. Thanks, you're going to see this part of the world.

Hey, I was going to show the world. I wore my over. I meant to say I wore these overalls today in honor Brent Reeves because he hasn't, he doesn't come to the render anymore. You don't have to film this, Josh. but that's my Brent Reeves edition case knife. So he's got his own addition. He has his own Brent Reeves mini trapper. Sweet.

And when you have that level of status in rural America, you don't even come to a podcast anymore. No way. No way. You send somebody. Like when there's a request, you just send your proxy. Yeah.

And I don't even know who that is. Probably whaling. We don't even know who that is for Brent anymore. Yeah. But anyway, I mean, I guess whenever I have a knife that has my name on it, I probably won't even be here. Yeah. Probably not.

Somebody else will be here. Because I have a cardboard stand up and we'll pre-record you. Yeah. So, Brent, love the knife, brother. Yeah. Truly, it's cool. I've been carrying this every day. It's a good, I'm fearful of losing it.

I think there's only a couple hundred of them in the world. There are. Sweet. And there may already be sold out. I don't know. I bet they're all gone. Yeah. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the squirrels live.

Yeah. Yeah. And my catchphrase is a hundred pending, meaning we are a treat. Let's go. 100 pending. That's my phrase. I like it. Thanks, Tyler.

Yep, thank you, guys. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a pool of blood. Oh, my God. he doesn't have a head.

Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions,

from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. because out here there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.