Bear Grease - Ep. 347: Render - What Makes the Sticks Move?

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

In this episode of the Bear Grease Render, Clay Newcomb is joined by Misty Newcomb, Gary Newcomb, Bear Newcomb, and Josh “Landbridge” Spielmaker, as they discuss all things “witching.” They cover ideomotor movement, the difference between witching and dowsing, electromagnetic hypotheses, and other personal ideas to answer the question, “What makes the sticks move?” If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's

designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. So I was just walking down by the creek just 10 minutes ago. Looked in a pool of water about six inches deep. Found that rock right there. Wow. That is a keeper. Yeah. How'd that hole get into?

I don't feel like that is by accident. I think it's a thing. I think it's a geologic process because bear, tell them what you just told me. I met a guy the other day who was wearing one on his neck, like a necklace. But you come across him here and there. you know. Yeah, you'll come across this sandstone in these creeks, this brown gravel will sometimes have a hole in it.

And I'm, I feel like there's a geologic explanation for it. And I think this is. It's shockingly uniform. It really is. It's shockingly uniform. And I think this is a great opener for the water-witching discussion. Because I think it's possible that 500 years ago, before we knew as much about the universe and the world was governed by superstition by a whole lot of other you know just odd

cultural practices that tried to explain the mechanics of the universe it's possible that a man would have picked that up and thought oh well today I'm going to find a wife or I'm going to you know there's going to be some there's some correlation to what happens in your life when you find a round rock with a hole in it but welcome to the bearers room but I I have another thought about that. Okay. We always wonder about the guy, you know, the caveman or the prehistoric man. It's inappropriate and offensive to call him cavemen.

Let's call them paleolithic humans. Prehistoric man, the guy who invented the wheel. Maybe he didn't invent it. Maybe he just found it. Now, that is brilliant. That could be its own book. Gary's got to finish his Sudoku quick. Dad's over here studying.

Welcome to the Bear Granger, Dad. Got the believer hat on. You bet, man. I dressed up. This could be a whole new marketing campaign for you. We have not talked about Water Witch in a long time, so I don't really know where you stand on it right now. But should you be a believer, I could see like a new t-shirt, maybe with you holding a pair of witching sticks. Yeah.

Yeah, I could, you know, I could use the extra money. Yeah. I charge for all photoshopping deals. All Photoshop. Name, image, and likeness. Misty, welcome. It's been a while since we've had the crew back together. Yeah, good to be here.

It's Newcomb, Newcomb, Newcomb, Newcomb. It's a lot of Newcomb's here today. But I'm really excited to talk about water witching. And let me tell you, and I'd like to hear y'all's thoughts on this. It's super risky to do a podcast like this. Because if you're a serious journalist, which I consider myself a serious journalist. I mean, that doesn't mean I always talk about serious topics or topics of consequence necessarily, but I take my reporting seriously.

If I tell a story, I want it to be accurate. Now, I do, in the style of storytelling that I do on the Bear Grease podcast, there are journalists that just report the facts and do not insert themselves into it. Right. That's most of the journalism, maybe not most, a percentage of the journalism that we see, like a newscaster on your, local news station is basically just going to be like at 7.01 p.m. tonight a tractor trailer rig ran into the bridge and ran off the road. Authorities are responding now. And then they might input a little bit of their personal opinion at the end like, I wonder what happened to him. And it's kind of funny. Point being, the kind of journalism I do, I'm very good.

I want to bring people along on my journey to answer questions that I have. Okay. You know, and so I try never to put my thumb on the scale, but if I do, I'm telling you that I'm doing it, you know, because that's where authors get in trouble is when they take research, or not getting trouble, but where they just create a book or a piece of work that's not really, that doesn't really stand up against criticism because their thumbs on the scale. Like they're taking the research and they're trying to push it to become.

what they want it to be. It's possible that someone could listen to this episode of Bear Grays and say I did that here. But I really tried to be very upfront with the data that I had, which was a many decades of being exposed to water witching, dousing, dowsing rods, these things. and what I know about the research on it, this ideomotor effect, the limited understanding of the actual science that they did when they did blind tests with water witchers and decided they couldn't find things underground

anymore than anybody else. But I think it's kind of foolish just to type in Google and say, what fuels dowsers and water witchers and it says ideometer effect and you just go okay well that's what it is because i'm not convinced that we're asking right questions but what what was your impressions of the of the podcast we're just going to jump right in okay bear no i i found it very intriguing because i've doused and water-witched and, you know, seen this stuff and been involved, known people who did it all my life. And to actually get in it and study it and talk about it, I found it

very intriguing. Gary, what was the earliest, the earliest time you remember seeing someone do it or doing it yourself? My uncle was building a new house in Glenwood, Arkansas. And I was probably a 10-year-old kid. And he cut a stick, went out, and he dug a well. And I'm pretty sure it worked. I don't remember the results, but that was. He did it. Yeah, he did it.

Yeah. And I talked to his daughter about that, and she remembered it. She remembered him doing that. And anyway. I am amazed at the ubiquitous nature of knowledge of water witching in this part of the world. Because I don't think it's that way everywhere. Partly, we talked about it on the podcast, if you live over a major aquifer, which there's a lot of parts of the country, like in the Grand Prairie in East Arkansas, on the Mississippi River, there's these giant aquifers.

and there's no question that there is water 100 foot down or 60 foot down or 200 foot down. You don't even have to guess. And so naturally, in those areas, there's not as many water witchers, or at least it's not as common because you don't, it's not a question that has to be answered. Kind of gravitates towards like mountain culture a little bit. Well, I think so. I wouldn't have known, I mean, I'm not an expert on this at all. So I really just kind of was answering these questions that I had. So I haven't really polled the world to be like, where does this happen?

But Roger Quentin, my buddy Roger Quentin, who is just a classic Ozark Cattleman over here. Just I knew, I hadn't talked to Roger in a while. And I had no doubt that Roger would give me good information on Waterwich. I never heard him talk about it a day in his life. And I called him and I said, Roger, what do you know about? water witching and he was just like oh man I don't know nothing about water witching bar bra bra and then he said now I did witch a well for billy last year and we got 50 gallons of water and he and he knew a lot about water witching and he couldn't believe I wanted to he couldn't believe

I wanted to interview him because in his mind he's just kind of he doesn't know much about it but but he actually does but what he said that was so just spelled it out was he's He described those four wells within like 250 yards of each other. You know, it was on a border of his property. So like one of the wells was on his property. One was on a neighbor. One was on another neighbor. And there was two good wells.

One well with natural gas, one sulfur water. And then he said there's places in the valley. He lives where you could drill 1,000 feet and not get water. And so you kind of start to see culturally, socially, like especially, before modern well drilling stuff, like this is a question that the people needed answered. Yeah. That the consequence was often a matter of feat.

Like if you dug it there or there, could make a difference in karst terrain. Yeah. It really could. And so, you know, so many of these kind of folk remedies answer a fundamental question that people just don't have insight into, you know. But I wanted to say this in the intro too. People are going to roast me.

I put a video up of Carl Holt, which and water on my Instagram today. Okay. And that dad to me was like walking into a gauntlet. I knew that the world was going to roast me for the unintelligence of me like believing this stuff. Just when you throw it to the mass audience. I think if any one of those people listened to my podcast, they would see that I was not trying to answer the question of does water witching work. Right. No, that's not the question.

I'm not convinced that it does. No. To be honest with you. I'm not sure that water witching actually can find underground water, but something moves the sticks. And that's the answer to the question. what moves the sticks, period. So for all you people out there that commented on my Instagram before you listen to the podcast, I'm sorry that...

I'm looking at some of these comments. You got a lot of people who believe in it. Yeah, there was actually... The home team came in. Yeah. Which I really appreciated. And then you got a couple of people who are micro-analyzing your guys' knuckles. and hands and width apart at the beginning versus the end,

which also is kind of tricky to do when someone's walking towards you in 2D. That's why I put two different angles of the video. And I didn't expect it to translate. I truly didn't expect it to translate. I think it's really like, try it. Just try it. I mean, grab a couple of coat hangers and go try it. I mean, I keep saying it.

Like, I was a skeptic. I thought it was somebody was, I thought it was ideomotor or someone just moving it. But when you put two rods in your hand, it moves. Tell what the ideomotor effect is. The ideal motor effect is that you create subconscious movement. Like, it's literally subconscious. You don't know you're doing it. It looks like something's moving it, but it's actually you.

subconsciously. And if you type in on the internet, what makes witch and sticks move on, that pops up very quickly. Yeah. I think to just accept that as true just because the Google says it is not is not super, super intelligent either because I did some research on the ideometer effect. And I would love to get an expert. I would fly across the country to talk to the national expert on the ideometer motor. I truly would. Because basically, what are you looking at there?

Well, I was looking at the things and now I'm looking at ideomotor effect because I think you need to define it for people who have not did not listen to your thing. Yeah, basically it's where your thoughts trigger. Yeah, so it's a psychological phenomenon where unconscious thoughts and intentions

can influence bodily movements and actions sometimes leading to seemingly inexplicable physical responses. So basically, it's saying that the person holding the rods is moving himself. And that's the first thing that you would think if you saw somebody doing it. It's like, well, yeah, you're just moving it down. If it is, in fact, that audio motor effect, that's pretty cool, that we can be the that unconscious. And it makes me wonder

what other areas of life are we completely divorced from reality because if you take a pair of clothes hangers out in your yard and walk over your water line, let me know what happens. Yep.

It doesn't not work sometimes and does work sometimes. Yep. Wait, what are you saying? I mean, it's not... It works every time. You're saying it works every time, right? All right.

Yeah. It works every time. what did you think misty I thought it was really interesting I did bring my psychology book from my caller psychology Should we get should we let bear go? Yeah let bear go I'll open up yeah I'm sorry

I'm okay I'm kind of torn like they're there they're you know like whenever you say something like that and whenever you know like I've done it before and the sticks cross but then also like whenever you really dug into like you know individual situations where like it worked

sometimes it didn't work you know, it's kind of 50-50. I'm a little bit torn. But here's what I think. I think that this is maybe one of those things you just don't look too deep into. You just kind of like, you know, it's like you don't have to have the science on it. Like whenever I was listening to it, I was kind of thinking about like, you know, like sometimes whenever you're hunting, there's like a logical way to go about something.

But while you're out there, you feel like you should do something else that makes no sense. And I've had a lot of success doing that instead of doing that. instead of doing what made sense. And I feel like it's like not, you know, there's no science behind it. Like there's no real logical thinking. I think on something like this, we're looking too deep into the logic. And maybe there's no logic. Maybe it's just sticks just cross, you know.

So I don't know. I'm kind of torn because, like, you know, like there is a lot of it that's kind of, like, you know, it's just kind of like skepticism a little bit. Or like, you know. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of torn. Well, and I think that's where I ended too, was, you know, if you haven't listened to the episode, that's the spoiler. Is that at the end, I'm really no closer to a synopsis than I was at the beginning.

Because I would believe the IDOM motor effect. If I sat with an expert today and he, and I could understand. understand how the sticks in Carl Holt's hands. Hey, I'm a smart fella, smart enough. Right. I promise you, anybody that was standing three feet from Carl Holt and saw those sticks, you just would be like, they're moving. Like, I'm not that gullible. Right. They literally twisted in his hands while his hand, and that was my point is, okay, if it is the ideal, motor effect. And again, some expert potentially could tell me how this is

possible. Now, if the human palm was lined with like snake skin scales or centipede legs. Some people could. And you could hold something in your hand like that turkey leg right there and make it twist. If we could do that

physically, I would be like, yeah, it's ideotor. It's like him holding that right there and that turkey leg twisting. and it's like your hand didn't twist the turkey leg. Do you understand? That's the only part. And I have to get excited about that

because that's just what I believe. Here's the thing that throws another wrench into it to me. Like I could see where putting the metal rods in your hands. Like I thought it was interesting what Carl said. He said, I think it's something in someone's body. Yeah. That makes it do it. Like I could see there being some kind of an electromagnetic,

force in there that could cause those metal rods to move. I don't understand how it translates with a green limb. Yeah. Well, that's what Dr. Keneffect said was that if a physicist were trying to analyze this, these are two completely different questions. We need a physicist to go Waterwich with us and be... Well, they wouldn't, I don't think they'd have. have any more conclusions than we already have. I mean.

But there's always so much skepticism. You know what I mean? They're they're they're taking people's word for it. I want them to try it. Yeah. Let's kidnap Kennefic and take him out. Oh, he would do it. He was he was a cool guy. Um, quick story about Dr. Kinefeck. Yeah. Haven't seen him. First of all, this episode I thought just laid out really fun. I mean, part of the other thing the reason i talked about this is just i'm interested in how culturally people handle water witching you know how how how carl holt when i said he knew he's like there's no science behind this science says it's fake and i'm like do you have a problem with that and i mean he's like no i mean it works that was his thing that's what that's pretty much what all the people

on the podcast said just like hey i don't need science to validate this, it works. But it was really cool here. Mark Fendall, my dear friend up the road here, talk about Seth Timmons, that old man. And now, I hope that people understood that what Seth

is doing, I think we could say, I mean, that's like stretching the rules a lot. Which part of it? Saying it was a gift? Well, he carried... He was the one that would carry the elements with it. him.

Pill bottles with him that were full of whatever he was looking for. And so he would take his, he would take his rods. And if he wanted to find sulfur water or, well, he actually mainly used his pill bottles for finding natural gas. So he had natural gas sand in one, good water in one. So he basically his rods might indicate and he might not know if it's sulfur water or regular water. So he'd put sulfur water in his hand and see if it indicated.

And if it did, he'd be like, man, you got solar water. for water. And he could also had mechanisms to be able to tell how deep it was and all this stuff. I wonder if he kept a diary or anything of all his water witching. Right. Because talking to Colin Deaton,

I mean, he's like, I'd do this five times a week and I can do it with 100% certainty. Yeah. Yeah. It's tricky because when you hear people who do stuff, and I understand all the reasons, but when you

you hear people, I'm kind of a bear where I've had enough experiences and I think that there's, you know, there's a natural world and that has laws that govern it, but that's not the only world we interface with and I just think that when you

I don't know, I tend to, on this kind of stuff that has this many different potential ways to measure it in a lab. Yeah, I tend to go with the people who have experience over, because I don't trust the lab in that scenario. I know it's not going to work. I know you cannot measure some

things in a lab because the circumstance in a lab are not the same. But when I hear someone say, I've done this a thousand times in the last three years, I'm going to go with what that guy says because I trust that more than this lab experience. Just working in social science and even in physical science, labs have some limitations. Dr. Kedafek's story was so spot on. when he gave the example of the Russian lab that they thought it was fraudulent because they couldn't replicate this thing anywhere and they go there and they watch what they do and this guy, you know, puts this ear grease. He runs the wire behind his ear. That's ear grease, not bare grease. Right, right.

And that is what... There is a similar podcast in the Soviet, in Russia called Ear grease. Air grease. That is what, and I talked to Darcylton. Dr. Kennefeck for over an hour, and you heard like 17 minutes or maybe like nine minutes of him talking. And that's basically, we just went round and round about like what exactly are we studying. Because the difference between Seth Timmons, born 1912, that carries around pill bottles, sulfur water and good water and salt water, and Colin Deaton, who works up here at this excavation company in northwest Arkansas, which is utility lines,

you might as well be comparing, you know, an apple farmer to a boat captain, you know, on the Atlantic Ocean. Like they're just doing different things. Completely different. And yet we find these correlation points. And, you know, the skeptic inside, well, if I was playing devil's advocate, I would say it's possible that somebody like a Colin would be way. in tune with the world than he even realizes. When he steps on to a job site, he maybe doesn't subconsciously know,

but he's seen so many that he knows where that water line is. Right. I mean, and so the audio motor effect comes into practice and confirms what he thinks, and most of the time he's right. I'm not saying I believe that. I'm just saying that could be said and you would have to kind of be like, maybe. Because I do think that humans are masters. And we learned this when we were living in the wild,

but we're masters of finding correlations that help us be successful. I mean, we're masters at, I mean, we had to just look for anything that we could to give us any insight into the future. Like, Bear Greece, like right here. I keep this jar of bear grease on my windowsill, and you see it's bisected. It separates in this clear, clear olive oil colored liquid, and then this opaque, thicker liquid. And the Indians in the southwest United States used to put bear oil in the scraped bladder of a deer so that it was translucent, and they forecasted the weather with bear oil.

because barrel oil just ever so slightly changes with barometric pressure. And for me to think that I could do that as well as them is kind of crazy. Because they lived in a world that didn't have the weather app on their phone, that they didn't have a shelter over their head quite like I have in air conditioning. Their entire existence was based upon them being able to have some certainty about the future. And man, I just feel like they were dialed in a way that we wouldn't be. I mean, this temple that we live inside of, this body, I think is capable of so much more than what a modern human asks of it. Yeah.

In terms of these things that might not line up with all the modern laws of physics. I agree. I agree. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen.

But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great

cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy to use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action.

What about, so Misty, Dr. Newcomb here, has brought out her physics textbook. Not physics, psychology. Psychology. Different. Because that's the question, isn't it? Is this a psychology question or a physics question? And, you know, we were talking about this all the time, as Clay would go interview people. And I think this makes a little more sense with the metal, kind of like what you were saying, the metal rod versus the wood.

But one of the things I thought about, and I've thought about. and I've thought about this in a couple different times, and I'm not really an expert, so I'm just kind of putting it out there. But I just remember in your intro to psychology class in college, they talk about neurons and synapses. And like when you have a thought, there's actually, and I was going to try to explain it,

but I decided it would be too boring. But when you have a thought, like every time you, when you focus your mind, there's a chemical reaction. and an electrical reaction happening in your brain. I mean, that is just truth. And it's kind of tricky to explain, but, well, for someone like me who doesn't explain it all the time,

a psychology professor could probably explain it very easily. But those synapses get stronger the more you do something. And I'm just, and those things speed up. So to me, one of the things I wonder is, and I've heard people describe water witching as when they concentrated real hard and when that guy squeezed real hard. And it's difficult for me not to see how there might not be a chemical electromagnetic, that reaction that's happening in their brain when they do that, creating some type of reaction with what's in the ground. Oh, so you're saying The electro, the electro, the process of the neurons firing produces an electrical impulse that could be interacting with whatever it is in the ground. I see.

What makes it tricky. I thought you were going to say that was the ideomotor effect. Well, no, I don't think it necessarily. I mean, I think that what if your body, because your body's connected to the ground, what if there are actual electromagnetic things happening? Yeah. Because there is an electrical charge

when you think of thought. Yeah. And the more you think something, the stronger those, the faster those charges happen. So like you're saying, if you believe it, it could be more plausible.

I 100% think that. Yeah. But I am not an expert. I'm not like a psychiatrist. I'm not a psychology professor. This was my intro to psychology class that I get that information from. And I'm just saying, why wouldn't, why would that not have some impact, that electrical,

if there is an electrical charge when you focus on something and there is a chemical charge. That's a good point. Well, but that also could be the mechanism of the ideal motor effect. Is that when you concentrate and think about it, that it produces electrical charge that makes you do involuntary movements. but I see exactly what you're saying. And it really can't be denied that the power of human belief or faith, even people that don't believe in the traditional idea of like a biblical faith, like faith in a God that would...

Faith in a spiritual realm. Basically, there would be a group of people that would think all that there is is what can be seen with the eyes and measured by physics. So, but even those people will say some crazy stuff happens when people believe. Yeah. You know, I actually heard, I'm thinking of an actual conversation and a person that I heard say that, that it shocked me when they said it. Because they were like, oh yeah, crazy stuff happens when people just think it's going to happen, which is interesting. But here's something that I did with Carl.

I had actually never been in the presence of somebody that used a fork stick to witch water. All my experience pretty much was finding water lines and stuff and utility lines with witch and rods. When Carl did it, I said, does it work if you don't grip the stick real tight? And he was like, no. And he walked over it, just holding it real light, and it didn't bob down.

and if you took a if you took a if you took a jig like if you had a remote control car with a stick on it that could hold the witching sticks and you drove that remote control car around I'm quite certain the rods wouldn't move and that's why Carl said I think it has something to do with your body which someone who is trying to build a case for the audio motor and which they do right you wouldn't have to try to build a case. you'd say, well, obviously it's ideomotor because you have to be holding it for your body to subconsciously move. And again, the only thing that's keeping me from fully buying the ideomotor thing is I just don't understand the physics of how if I grip that turkey leg that hard, that that turkey leg can twist in my hand and it's me subconsciously doing it. Now, if I turn my hand, yeah, I'm telling you, the wood bent with Carl. Like it like shook. And the other side of that is if this is an ideomotor thing, how do you know where the water is to think that that's where the water is? Well, now that is where all the hocus pocus potentially comes.

Because like when me and Carl walked up in his backyard, we knew that there was a well there. So our brains were like, there's water there. So it would clearly, if it was fake, would signal. there because we knew it. If you were a water witcher, walk, if I told you I want a well in this acre land and you start walking circles, what were you going to say, Josh? Well, I just, that whole thing, those witch and rods.

I ordered those witch and rods right there. Yeah. And I took them out. I took them out because I knew where my water line was. And I walked over the water line and I was like, they are not moving. And I walked back forward. And I went out today and realized my water line. is actually not there.

It's in a different spot. Really? Yeah. And I couldn't get them to move. And when I walked over my water line, they moved. Oh. That's a blind test right there. I thought it was my water line because I have a box in my front yard.

And I went over and looked at it. I'm like, why are these not crossing? And I looked at it and realized it was an AT&T box. It was just my phone line. So I was like, well. The fly thickens. You know, there's just as many people as swear that it works, like these guys that dig underground utilities and stuff.

I have a good friend over in Oklahoma. I won't say his name. He knows who he is. He laughs at me for even acknowledging water witching. And he digs for living on a big ex-examines. And he doesn't witch. No, he think he's just like, Clay, I used to think you were smart. Or, you know, he's like, I used to think you were normal or whatever.

You know, he's just like, I can't believe you're this. I've hardly run into an excavator that doesn't do it. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Most of them keep witching rods in a truck.

Well, okay. But here's the thing, too. Anybody that just is adamant and is upset about how stupid we are, that's not. not done it, I have like zero. Exactly. It's just like, okay, whatever, dude. Exactly. You've not, you've not felt it in your hands. And bear? Sticks move.

Have you done it? Yeah. Did you feel the sticks move? Yeah. And I've honestly done it, like, since I was a little kid. And I never even questioned it until now. I just thought, yeah, you just walk over the waterline and sticks move. But then whenever I was listening to this podcast, I was like, wait a minute this is a little bit crazy yeah you know who duped us the believer do you remember when we I vividly remember when we went and wished and this is where it just starts sounding kooky as it can be but when we went and witch those graves that if it looks kooky and smells kooky

is probably kooky yeah yeah you know you got an earth and it's made up different ways and you put something in the ground, an old car, a grave, and all these forces that I've read about that you came up with here, gravity and nuclear weak and magnetism. We're a conductor of that. Right. And, you know, you might have a cookbook in your hand, and for some reason that's a great conductor. It just happens that that limb really is a great conductor. They say it needs to be green or helps to be green, a certain type of tree.

Yeah. You take a metal rod. I mean, we've seen it. I bet you douse better if you're barefoot. But you find water because there's no old car bodies. There's no graves in the area. You know, you find water because it's everywhere. But if you were in a cemetery trying to find water, you wouldn't have much luck.

You're going to find graves. Hey, your car is beeping. I hit a button, didn't I? Magic. I'll be there in a minute. He just doused for his bronco. No, you know, there's just so many variables. It's hard to, it's hard to, do you get it?

Yeah. Now, that is witchcraft. Yeah. You can send something through the air. To be able to start your car. Witchcraft is all a matter of time. What do you mean? Of age.

That would have been witchcraft a hundred years ago. Oh, yeah. And now it's normal. The fact that we can pick up a cell phone and I can call all the way across the world. That's witchcraft. I disagree with you, Josh. A hundred years ago. Okay.

But I don't believe that witchcraft is all a matter of time. Tomato. Yeah. Tomato. What she's saying is that there is such a... I'm just kidding. I would say that there is. I'm using the term loosely, like perception about perception of what is supernatural and what is not.

This is a good place for me to say that my whole life I've been quite uncomfortable with the naming. of witching for water. Like, I don't play around with, and I don't think anybody in this room does. Like, we don't, it's a major marketing blunder of theirs that they call it witchen. That's the reason I feel comfortable even talking about this. Like, I don't want to talk about the occult

or anything weird like that, like uninterested. My interest in this is that, I believe that this is not that. And I believe that most people don't. Going back to the source, Gary, when your uncle did that, did he call it witchen? Did he call it dowsing? Witching, I think. I think. Witching, yeah.

I threw in the little tidbit that Dr. Kinaffek told me about the, it's one of his thesis students that is doing a project right now. And I actually tried to reach out to the kid. and I'm not sure what happened. But they can, as I understood it, they can detect a grave with, it's kind of funny, a gravometer. What? A gravity. Oh, I thought you meant gravometer like the gravometer. That's what I.

Oh, you need a grave fan, I got a little device here. Gravometer. I mean, it's witch it sticks. No, I'm pretty sure that's what they called a gravometer. That's right. Measures gravity. And he, they. They said that you can find a grave because the gravity is slightly different where there's a hollow space under the ground because gravity is based upon mass.

So gravity, and so like if there's a hollow space, but he said it would be such an imperceptible amount of gravity that it would be almost impossible for your sticks to move that much. so you know so in in his understanding of physics he's like no it's not gravity but when you walk over a grave there's actually less gravity he also told me something random but there's a place in arkansas that the gravity is like notably different than everywhere else more or less less there's like a like a i don't i don't even want to say how far it might impression was it was like a 20-mile stretch very narrow like a like a crack almost where gravity is like quite a bit different is it around the fault no i don't think so i don't think so but it was it was somewhere in the washtalls down here and uh just just interesting you know just like there's some weird stuff

going on out there that's that's that's hard to explain yeah and interesting this did bring up a lot of questions for me about like how water is actually like how it works because i've always been under the impression that like a mountain has an aquifer in it or like there you know like there's kind of like an aquifer all like anywhere you go there's an aquifer here because like you think about like springs you know coming out of a mountain right you just think that like there's you know a big aquifer behind it yeah but if there's like you know like these little pockets where there's water that I don't know, it kind of made me, like, question what I believed about how water was stored in the ground. And then another interesting thing was, like, you know, you think about, like, whenever you come across, like, a well, you know, out in the woods, you know, whenever you find those, like 15-foot deep, like, homesteaders well, like, how they always have water in the bottom.

Yeah. But, like, we have to drill, like, you know, a couple hundred feet now to hit water, like, you know, to find a well. and that's like a 12-foot well, but it has water in the bottom of it somehow. Right. So I'm just really confused about how water works. Well, the answer would have to be spoken to by a geologist. I don't really understand underground water, but I know that imagine here in the Ozarks, there's these big flat limestone benches and stuff.

Imagine a mountain and there's like layers of limestone. So rainwater seeps into the ground and then kind of hovers over the top. They can't go through the limestone. So it just kind of like sits in the soil profile above the limestone. And it's probably gradually moving one direction or the other. And you drill a well down there and all of a sudden create a cavity. And then water is attracted to a cavity. It's attracted to a space that gravity's pulling it down in.

So the shaft of your well, so you would drill through, imagine a slab of limestone and there's water standing on top of it in the soil profile. And then you drill a hundred foot well through that. The water goes down into the well, goes and fills up. And basically, every time you put water out of that well, there's well there because it's always sucking water from that kind of vein of water. it's I you know that's just anecdotal knowledge of of how it works now aquifers they're literally like giant lakes of water underneath the surface but the hand dug wells though as I understand it you you know you've obviously got to hit water within the depth that you dig so most of the hand dug wells were dug on springs like you wouldn't just go out and just well you would have

You'd probably have some knowledge of, you know, that guy over there, Doug, and he hit water at 15 feet. So if we dig a 15 foot well here, we'll probably hit water. But they also maybe got in places where there was a seat or something. And then if you dig a 4 foot by 4 foot, 15 foot shaft, it's just going to fill up with water over time. It's just going to be like a storage tank. Does that make sense? A cistern. Yeah.

We dug a well here on our property when we first moved here. because we didn't have city water. We went down 300 feet and only got like six gallons a minute, but only have about like a 70 gallon reservoir because we didn't hit water for a long time. Well, this is boring. Did you wish for that well? No. You just pick the spot.

There was the problem, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't wish it. I didn't get good water. But we lived off that for years. Yeah, it wasn't terrible. I mean, it was a family... When people come to our house

and we'd have to be like, you want a glass of water, you should bring your own water. No, it was not that bad. We were a family of six that lived off it for years. It did seem like in August when we would have

huge gatherings, we would run out of water. We would. But we would have, you know, probably 50 to 100 people here and that you'd have to put intense pressure on it. It was decent for everyday life.

You, it was really, it was very rare. I googled just now, to see if people in Arizona Waterwich. Because what bears questions, you were talking about in the Delta,

they don't really, because you know, you just stick something in and you get water. And then the mountains, but I was just in Arizona, it's super arid, dry, flat in most spots.

And we got a Tucson woman, water witching in the news in Arizona. Yeah. And several, but rural in rural areas. not cities. Yeah. Interesting.

Is she find any water? Mm-hmm. You know, my father-in-law, Steve, talked about water witchers in Florida. Oh, really? Yeah, and waters everywhere down there. But he said he remembered them, like, trying to just find the best spot using sticks, you know. So you go 10 feet instead of 12 feet. Yeah.

We got a water witcher in Kansas. People asking on Facebook for an experienced water witcher in Prescott, Arizona. Sorry. I'm kind of going down the rabbit trail here. I'm curious. Yeah. Oregon, so sorry. I'll stop. But they're all over.

Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about whether a witcher should take money or not? You think that affects their efficacy? I think they should take money. You think they should? I think any time you spend time, pay the person what they're working. You're asking them to come.

I think you should give them a token of gratitude, not money. Like a loaf of bread or some farm. You're only, you only think bartering is acceptable. Absolutely. You can barter. Agrarian goods. Okay.

Like bread that you made. Absolutely. Or sourdough. You can barter with a water with, but you cannot. Okay, got it. I loved it with Roger. Because I told you, when I called Roger, I knew that he would know the rules. I just knew he would know the rules.

And he was like, hey, if someone. Some water witchers try to charge you money, you need to find somebody else. It was like, they don't know any better than anybody else. You know, I kind of feel like anybody can water witch if they'll try it. You know, I mean, it could be certain bodies, you know, if what I'm saying would be true that we're a conductor of all that stuff. Right. You know, if you're off the ground, suspended in midair, I don't know what would happen. But if you're connected to the earth, it would be a good test.

That would be a good test. I have never waterwitched. I think anybody could do it. I don't know. Well, it could be your chemical makeup might make it where it's less effective or more, but anybody ought to be able to do it. And that brings up an interesting question about what we're actually talking about. If you're talking about finding groundwater, I think that it's possible that guys that have done it,

let's say there's somebody, I don't know anybody that's switched a thousand wells, but you might be so tuned into where water is, how it flows, the sticks, all these data points that you are just a master. I mean, now, can anybody make the sticks move with clothes hangers? I would say almost yes. Like it just almost works on everybody. Go get a green stick and tell somebody to go find underground water. They can find it.

Well, I'm saying, no, they can't. I'm saying the guy that's done it his whole life studied. Hey, I'm your dad. I'm right. You're wrong. Okay? No, go ahead. Well, just, who knows what that guy is tapped into that he, I'm not even saying spiritually, but, you know, or something like that, but just he's, he's, he's done it.

He knows. Yeah. The academic research was done in the 90s that I read about. where did these blind tests with people. And a meta-analysis, didn't you read one of those? Go ahead. I mean, didn't you, where they kind of collected all the different studies that had ever been done? Well, I don't know about that.

Okay. But my question is, if I went and got 30 water witchers to do a test on, I don't know. Are they as good as Colin Deaton, who's done it a thousand times and does it every day? Or did they get guys like me that have just kind of dabbled with it? I mean. Yeah. It's just so hard to quantify. I had a guy explained, you know, I told him, I was coming up here to water witching

deal, and he told me this elaborate story. He's a great storyteller, a good friend of mine. And he said that they were looking for a waterline, and they wished it. But, you know, you had to witch this way. that way, you know, how to turn to get angles where everybody can't do that. Right. Right. And he said, the guy finally said, look, it's running right through here exactly.

And he said, we took a back hole and dug down within six inches of where he said it was on each side. Then we took a hand deal and dug down into it. And it was exactly where he said. But he had to make several measurements where that's where the expertise might come in. but I don't think it's mental. I think it's a physical thing, but who am I? Well, Colin Deaton, I appreciated how matter of fact he was. He was like, yeah, I'm using all the clues I have.

There's a water tap there. It goes into the house right there. And he said, it may take me a while, but he said you have to walk perpendicular over the line. You might think you'd just walk down the line. But when they cross, if you're on top of it, they would just stay crossed. Exactly. What happens, and call me crazy, you know, you walk perpendicular to it, it crosses, then it opens back up. And so you turn around and you go down another 10 feet, walk back across it, and get another data point, and you get these data points for where the line is.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That takes skill. That would take skill to really dial in, especially if you had no data points, which you didn't know where it was. you know. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use.

I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut.

I also hunt with Phelps's cut and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out prime cuts at phelps gamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did and you'll find out that the Steve Rinella cut is an easy-to-use

cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. I think it's ridiculous that we can go to the moon, but we can't tell you how this works. I mean, to me, it works. And not necessarily, like I've said, not necessarily, it's going to find anything. It just happens that most part of the earth, there's nothing there that's just, just, this normal earth. Yeah, you know. There's always something unique. And so really the only prevalent thing is going to be water.

So you're going to find water. And a lot of these four things that are, mentioned in your little write-up forces of nature, some are strong, some are weak, and, and, you know, you're going to get different signals. But, hey, it's a real deal. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think it makes total sense that maybe everyone could get a little bit of movement. And there's something scientific about that. But then people who really hone in and, devote their life to understanding stuff would figure out how to do it

better, more precise, get different types of water just by sheer experience that you couldn't quantify, that you couldn't say I think about, like, there's this type of cookie that we make, that we make on the oven and when my mom taught me to make it, she said you have to feel it and she would

make me come over and like, when you'd stir it, you would feel what, and if you don't do it just right, it's going to come out too soft or too dry. And you just have to, have to feel it. And I've tried different ovens and every oven you get to that point at a different time because, you know, you want a recipe that just says that three minutes is going to do this or at five minutes, but you can't because every oven's different. You turn the heat on different.

You're using different type of sugar. You're using different type of conductors, you know. Idea motor effect. There's no difference. No, there is a difference. There's a huge difference because sometimes it takes five minutes to get to that spot and sometimes it takes three minutes. Right. And so many variables. You just have to know. know how it feels and there are people who know what it feels like and they know how to find how to test it and how to go a little further but probably everybody could do it check all recipes for the audio motor cookie yeah well it's really interesting to me and it's interesting to see how people how people handle it and and i thought it was oh it was so funny when

I'm with Dr. Kinefeck, like in the middle of an interview. And literally knock on the door. And he's like, oh, I'm so sorry, Clay. I forgot they were coming. And he takes off his headset, you know, like kind of like the interview is like, oh, okay. Well, all right, I guess we're done. In walks, Sarah. And Dr. Kinefic says, Sarah, this is Clay.

He's here talking about water witching. and she just, I mean, within seconds, was just like, yeah, I hired a water witcher six months ago. And I just was like, I wish I could have recorded the actual moment when she told me that. Yeah. And I just said, you're kidding. And she's like, oh, no. And she was real nice. And she was very good at describing.

And I just said, can't, we sit down with me? And she was like, sure. And they were like, two minutes, maybe three. After meeting her, she was sitting in the chair telling me about the guys that she paid $150 to which water for, or that she paid them for it. And she, she, Mark Fendall, Roger Quentin, and Clay Newcomb all have the same idea is probably should go ahead and do it. Just if you're going to have a well, and even statistically, it's not going to hurt you. Because if, in fact, a water witcher cannot find underground water any better than random chance, then it's not going to hurt you. Right.

Because how's a well driller going to find it? Yeah. They don't have any better chance than a water witcher. I mean, okay. Well, they would have a lot of prior knowledge of where to drill a well. You know, they would have known in this valley or at this elevation, typically we drill here or here. I guarantee you the water witchers. Yeah, know that information too.

I'm certain that water witchers would know that intel. Maybe. Because they've done it. Yeah. So they've got, they have that, that's part of that. But see, there's all levels of water witchers. You know, like Carl. The one you would pay.

The one you would pay. Is there water water with you in? There should be. Like Carl, Carl told me, I mean, in Carl's mind, he has, well, it's, I believe him. He's never told them to dig a well there and then not have found water. They always find water. I'd like to see a statistic on how many well drillers drill a well and don't find water. Right.

That's the thing. Yeah. Because it could be, it's just like, well, anywhere you drill, if you drill deep enough, you're going to find water. Typical well around here's what? Two to 300 feet? I'd say so. And bears founded it at 14, so I mean, I'm going to bear.

Yeah. One thing, I don't know if y'all find this interesting, but I did. I had a customer, and he was an unusual guy, and he did what was called dowsing. Tell us about his, well, he kept his mall burrows in his t-shirt, sleeve right here. And he kept a six pack of beer tied in a t-shirt tied to his belt. Anyway, he came in my office and he got to talking about this dowsing. And, of course, I'm intrigued by it. I don't necessarily believe it.

But I'm just intrigued by these type people. And I like getting outdoors. And I said, if I give you a, well, they would play a game where they would cut a big area of a yard up into blocks. And somebody would put a quarter on number 47 block. have the guy come out of the house. He'd take a string with a ball on the end of it and go, where is the quarter? And this thing would start.

What kind of a ball? It didn't matter. It didn't matter. The one time I used it, I used my rope on my rain jacket, trying to find an arrow. I finally get, anyway. So this thing would take him to that spot. And I go, hey, what if I take you out in the woods and describe something?

and you think you can find it? He said absolutely no question. So I took him way out about as far as you could go and knew of a very prominent spot, you know, two hours away up a mountain. And he said he'd never been there. Of course, I believe that he had. I mean, I just don't believe this.

And so we get out of the truck, and he said, where is the blank? this object that I knew was there. And he took his little dowser out, and it got the swinging, and we took off up the mountain, and we'd go a little ways, and he'd get us over here. When we finally got to the top of the mountain, it was just almost straight up.

You had to get on all fours. And when we looked over the top of the mountain, just like this, it was flat as a pancake. There it was. I mean, it was within 50 yards of where we came. up on the mountain. What's the it? Well, I'd rather not say.

Oh, it's a big. Yeah. Oh, it's like a location, like a... Yeah, a location. You can say. It was a cemetery. Okay, cemetery. Okay.

Way out, no roads to it. It's just isolated up there. Okay. Long ways away. Dad's told me that story. I thought you meant like there was an object you had lost it. Well, you know, I just didn't want to... To people who know the area, I didn't, you know...

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a... cemetery. Like in the middle of the woods. Yeah, yeah. With that old, old cemetery that there's no longer any access to you, got to walk into it. And it, Dad's told me that story. I remember when that happened. It was pretty shocking, pretty shocking.

I mean, we were smoking and drinking all the way up, at least he was. I mean, he was on a baller or beer all the way up. In a deal like that, you just have to either, it's kind of like what Dr. Ketifek said, the guy's either a fraud or, well, this has nothing to do with physics. This is, to me, something not even really related. It can't, I just can't be real. Yeah, dowsing, to me, if you're like using your mind to ask questions to an object, that's like, that's pretty weird. That's, that's, uh, that's out of bounds for me.

but that's what people do and that's where all this all gets so convoluted is because water witching, dowsing, you know, using a green stick to find underground water, like all this stuff kind of gets mixed into like the same

bucket and then becomes very confusing. And then when you start reading about water witching and stuff, back in the day, I didn't even put it on the podcast because it was just a little too far. out of bounds. They would use witch and sticks to like tell if somebody had character or not or to tell if they lied. They would be like, did you lie? And you'd be like, no, I didn't lie. And you go, well, let's get the witching sticks. And if they crossed, the guy was a liar, you know, and they'd kill him.

They would ask, they would use it as. Life was hard. Yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's just this rabbit hole that's really deep. And I don't believe that witches sticks can determine. human character and tell you if someone lied or not. Gosh, I'm so glad to hear that. My only question is what makes the sticks move. It was the only question that I was seeking to answer from this. What makes the sticks move? And the conclusion is,

one of those four things. I don't think it's mental. Physics. Yeah. Dad thinks it's physics. It's got to be. It's got to be. I really want to talk to an

expert on the IDEO motor technique that will go with me to Carl Holt's house and watch his hands and just explain to me the physics of I just don't think I just don't think Carl Holt was trying to trick me I definitely think you might have some self-professed experts on the IDEO motor movement on your Instagram right now oh yeah you got a couple guys who would volunteer they've started a club they've already started the analysis yeah yeah and I I know knew that, I signed up for that. Yeah. Signed up for it.

But hey, these are the questions that make life fun. Yeah. And it's fun to just explore these things and ask, you know, ask hard questions. I was like, bear, I never even thought much about it until I became an adult. And I was like, wait a minute, this is unusual. And then it's like, was this normal to know? how to do this. Is this across the country? So

interesting questions. But humans are inherently fallible and gullible. I will say that. Fact. A lot of stuff happens that's not real, that we think is real. It's true. And I also think that humans are too skeptical.

Yeah. I think it goes both ways. I said something the other day. I was writing something, and I wrote it. I said that modernity has given us so much. Modernity just being technology and all the incredible things and knowledge that we have access to today that no humans have ever had access to. I mean, the human experience that we live is far beyond the wildest imagination of people from the Stone Age or even people 300 years ago. Did you know that there were, I'm going to get back

the quote. They believe that there have been about a hundred billion homo sapiens that have lived on planet earth since the dawn of time, about a hundred billion. Today there's about eight billion. So there's about 92 billion homo sapiens behind us that have died. And what we live today by driving cars, by having electricity, by having running water in our house, by being able to communicate via a cell phone by, you know, being able to have computers and internet, watch digital imagery on a screen. It is something that a minuscule, like, this is a new human experiment. Yeah.

And what I said was modernity has given us so many things, which much of it good. But we have no idea what we lost. What has all the technology and all. the comfort and all the full belly all the time not having to navigate the landscape yeah what has that taken from us and that we have no idea yeah yeah yeah i agree i was gonna i was gonna say one more thing when we were talking about you were talking about kind of unexplainable things that people do that are like beyond rationality this this this book arctic dreams by barry lopez It was talking about when the Europeans first interfaced with the Inuit people in the Arctic.

And they were, when they talked to the Indian people, they were, they didn't think they understood direction. Because the way that the Inuits said directions and described the landscape was way different than Europeans. It was like this collision of two thinking systems and two ways to view the earth. But they noted the unreal navigational system that the Inuits had. And there were accounts of, you know, guys on sea ice walking in the dark in snowstorms, like, straight back to their villages. Like, imagine that the sea ice out there is just like flat. Like, there's no, there's no topography because it's ice. and you would go, they would, you know, I don't remember the exact circumstance,

but basically they would be miles and miles out on sea ice, and these Inuits would be like homes that way. And I mean, it was like a white out in the dark. You would die if you had to stay out there. And they could just walk home. It's like, what's governing that? So interesting. A dog can do that, animals do that.

We've lost those skills. We don't need them. I don't even want to be. able to do that. I don't need that. I got a phone. I got a compass. You know, I mean, I don't want to waste my brain power on something like that. Yeah. But you throw a dog out 10 miles from your house and he'll be at the breakfast table the next morning looking for a biscuit. Very good. We've thrown our cats out four or five times. Yeah, no doubt. He keeps coming back. I remember taking some friends of us took a cat out to a farm to they've lived in town.

and it was like 13 miles, and the next morning that cat was home. Really? Yeah. And it was in the middle of town. Wow. Wow. Those are skills that we used to have, and we've lost, and I think it's very good to lose them. Do you think it's good to lose them?

I think it is because we've got more capacity to do other things that are more important. And, you know, like I say, why do I need to walk across ice for 13 miles to get home? I don't. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I don't even any ice around here. I got to work on my handicap. I mean, really. I mean, you can relate it to anything.

But, I mean, why waste time on something is useless? I mean, I got it all right here. So I'm not going to take up my minimal amount of brainpower on something that's not going to many good. Yeah. Well, what you're described, I think he's hyperbolicly speaking in a way, like exaggerating to make a point, that's the way your body and biology has functioned. Like basically, essentially, your brain has decided that that's true because we don't have this incredible homing instinct just naturally. It has to be developed. It probably is even lost generationally, you know, over time. I mean, it's possible way in deep time.

a child was born and they just had it more than they have it today. I don't know. Well, people that I get, that I've been with, and y'all have seen the same thing. You can go out in the woods with one particular person and you go, okay, it's time to go back to the truck. And I mean, I've done it with a guy one time dragging a deer out. And when we started to take off, he went that away and I went this away. You remember that story? Yeah, yeah.

Some people still have some of that at a stronger degree than others. And I don't have it. I mean, I'm as lost as a goose. You throw me out in the woods. But I do know to look at moss on the north side of the tree, and it's got me out of the woods a couple of times doing that. Yeah. Well, and I think that there's some correlation to all that with potentially, you know,

this water witch and stuff. potentially. Like there's something nuanced. And even Dr. Kineffick said that. He said it may not work in a lab because there's too many variables and we really don't know what we're studying or perhaps it's incredibly nuanced. And I think if we could go back in time to a Native American from a thousand years ago and just pile around with them for a couple days, I think we'd be shocked at the stuff that

they could do. not not physically like running and jumping and climbing trees i mean like but like i think they would just have an instinctual knowledge of the land that would far surpassed i mean undoubtedly they would but i think some of it wouldn't be perceived by physics i think some of it would be just like yeah what makes us human is that we're we're we're different than yeah interesting stuff Bear thoughts, final thoughts. No final thoughts. None?

No. If you drill a well, if you ever have land, you get, you watch it. I'll be witching it for sure. You'll be witching it yourself or you'll call someone. Depends on how expensive a well is. Wrong answer. You get your old dad to do it. Bears he can do it.

We'll get Carl Holt to do it. He'll do it. He'll do it for fun. free. That's right. Well, he lives a pretty little, a piece from here. We'll give him a loaf of sourdough bread. If they need to charge mileage, I'm okay with that.

Yeah. Yeah. He actually said to me that he, he didn't mind getting a little gas money. I like it. I like that. Keeps them on us. Hey, do you see this hat right here? That's pretty cool.

This is a mossy oak bear grease hat. We've got, they're for selling the immediate ear. website. I'm thinking about arm wrestling you for it here in a second. That'll be fun. Yeah. That's old school camo in it. Yeah. Mossy Oak. Mossi Oak. Mossy Oak Bottom Land.

Yep. All right. Thank you guys for listening. And as always, keeps a wild place. That's why I'm very sure. First Lights Fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products

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