Bear Grease - Ep. 384: Backwoods University - Menhaden Fishery Representative

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

Last week we dove into the topic of the menhaden fishing industry or pogie boats along the Louisiana coast, and the growing concerns from recreational fisherman and wildlife biologist. This week we will be hearing from a representative from menhaden industry to share their side of the story. The timing of this crucial because this Thursday, November 6, the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Commission will be voting to potentially change some of the buffer zone laws, which directly affects where these menhaden boats are legally able to fish. Connect with Lake Pickle and MeatEater Lake Pickle on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and YouTube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

First Lights fieldwear collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days in real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season. Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new fieldwear gear at firstlight.

Welcome to the first ever bonus drop of Backwoods University. As many of you know, Backwoods University is traditionally a bi-weekly show. However, last week we put out an episode titled Hogi Boats. And in that show, we dove into the growing concern and controversy surrounding the commercial menhaden fishing industry. And one of the things that I specifically notated in that show was that I wanted to be able to present both sides. But unfortunately, I cannot find anyone from the commercial fishing side to speak with me. However, that has since changed. I have someone from the industry to talk to, and also, this is a very time-sensitive issue.

There are a few potential law and regulation changes in votes taking place this very Friday in Louisiana. So, as I have promised, my aim is not to tell you how to think, but to simply present the facts in both sides of the story. So here's my conversation with the commercial fishing representative. So Ben Landry, you are the vice president of public affairs, and you oversee regulatory communications for ocean harvesters. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. So we have two facilities in the Gulf. We have one in Moss Point, Mississippi.

We have one in Abbeville, Louisiana. We also harvest Manhattan on the east coast in Reedville, Virginia. Okay. So what I'm going to do, I have some questions that I want to ask you. But at the point that this episode will come out, the original Pogie Boat episode will have been out for about a week, maybe a little bit more. And so one thing I wanted to be sure to do was just kind of give you an open floor. If you've had a chance to see some of the stuff that came out, see some, you know, hear the episode, hear what was talked about. So before I have you, before I have any of the questions that I have for you, I want to just give you an opportunity.

or to respond to any of the stuff that was covered in the episode as is. Okay. So, you know, thank you. And, you know, having watched the video, the podcast and, you know, live this life for 20 years, you know, there's a lot of misconceptions about the fishery. And, you know, the guys that you had in the video are incredibly passionate. I would never suggest that they don't know what they're talking about. I mean, they seem to be experts in their field. But I do think there's other perspectives.

You know, the concept of, well, first off, the one thing that just always gets me is this foreign ownership being a factor in any of this. And it's simply not the case. Both fishing companies, both ocean harvester's and our competitor, who we've kind of been working shoulder to shoulder with on these regulatory issues, West Bank fisheries, they're both American-owned, American-owned, American-operated, the processing where we deliver Manhattan to that company, Omega Protein, and theirs is Daybrook fisheries, those are owned by a Canadian company and a South African company. But in terms of the fishing, the vessels

that people see, those are American-owned. And, you know, I heard one of your guests just, you know, it always just strikes me as kind of a scare tactic, this idea that foreign entities are coming and taking U.S. Manhattan. And one, it's not true. And two, it hasn't changed in any way the fishing operation. I worked for the company prior to the acquisition, at least the Cook acquisition in 2020.

2017, and I can show you our fisheries prosecuted the exact same. I can't speak for the other company, but, you know, we harvest the same fashion. We don't, there hasn't been a changing philosophy of becoming more aggressive or, you know, let's, you know, create or be damned with user conflicts. That's not what's going on here. I mean, there's Americans working there. We're flying the U.S. flag. And, you know, when we're perceived as outsiders, it's a bit offensive to us. So that's one thing, you know, just off the top I wanted to mention.

One thing that I appreciated from the guys that I heard from, because there was three different individuals on that episode. And all three of them weighed in and saying, like, hey, our intention here is not to, you know, because it's not to shut anyone down or cost anyone. a job. They were very clear in saying that, and I thought that was respectable of them. One of the things that they were pushing for is the, or the hot, the hotter of the topics is this buffer zone, right? And we saw some of that as well in the YouTube shorts, in the social media post. You know, there's a lot of talk and folks wanting to extend the buffer zone. I know there's talk now about wanting to take the buffer zone away. why is that so crucial to your operation?

What is that buffer zone? How does it affect you? Well, this is what this is all about. To me, again, I came over to omega protein, and now I'm on the fishing side in 2005. And we didn't have any of these issues until about 2020. And it was all about where you can fish. and to us, I mean, the simple question is that's where the Manhattan are.

You know, unfortunately, that's where the prize sportfish are as well, close to shore. So you just have an inherent user conflict. I grew up, you probably passed through my hometown when you went down to Grand Isle. I grew up in Tibado in Lafouche Parish. So I've been to Grand Isle countless times and have recreationally harvested fish for as long as I could grab, my dad goes as often as he can. User conflicts occur within sectors, right? You know, if you're fishing and you see two other boats come near you that are recreational

fishing, you get kind of upset too. We obviously have a much bigger footprint there because you can see us on the horizon a little bit faster, a little bit easier. But I just think this has always been about user conflicts of moving us, moving those boats away from the coast. And, you know, there hasn't been any data that illustrates that that's better than something else. And particularly if that's where the bulk of the menhaden are going to be, then we believe we should have the right to harvest in those waters. You know, we saw the buffer zone get moved back a little bit. And then, you know, obviously,

Grand Al has the much bigger buffer because there is some acknowledgement that that's kind of a recreational fishing hot spot. There was no disagreement from the fishery. There was a gentleman's agreement to stay three miles off of the island itself, dating back probably two decades. So getting that into the code a few years ago, you know, it was something that we didn't fight or anything. We honestly kind of hope that it would happen. You know, and then another buffer was put in front of Holly Beach and Cameron Parish in southwest Louisiana to protect. those tourism dollars, because we understand that. But, you know, we believe that, you know, outside of those areas and other recreational fish in hotspots, you know, this company should have

every right to harvest those fish as anyone else. And, you know, we would always ask for respectful fishing out there. And I talk to my captains a lot and I say, listen, you can legally go catch that fish, but, you know, if there's a bunch of boats around, maybe consider passing on that set and go and find them elsewhere. We don't go out looking for user conflicts. And, you know, I think that's something that, you know, just from communication, we could all improve on. Right. And so that's what, that leads me to something that, like, I have to ask about probably one of the more notable ones, I think it was about, like, you know, a couple months back, it was recent. And it was before, I mean, well before I had even started working on this episode.

There was a video, some guys were tarp and fishing. I think a couple tarpening up on the net. Obviously, I wasn't there. But the record from several of folks that were there was that the story went that there was communication between them and the commercial boats. And there was communication going, hey, we're fishing tarpon right here. You know, please stay out, something along those lines. and then they came in any way and some tarp and were killed.

That's how it came across. Yeah, I heard the story. Right, right. How, I mean, you look at instances like that, and it's like there's got to be a way. One, like, was that, was it right for those guys to carry out their commercial fishing in that way? Is that a kind of instance that can be avoided? because that's where like those instances as far as like if I'm if I'm taking off the unbiased hat and I'm trying to say I you know if I'm on the side of commercial fishing I'm like hey guys we want to

avoid that one that would be my standpoint but explain to me from your perspective like how something like that happens do you try to avoid something like that is that a worry just just kind of break that down for me well no that's great and I appreciate the opportunity to respond. The vessels, as I remember, there were two Menhaden vessels that came nearby, some Torpard fishers, fishermen. And I will say this, those two vessels were operated by whom I believe are the best menhaden captains in the Gulf.

I mean, these aren't green fishermen. These are really impressive fishermen. So I called him and I said, what, give me the scoop, what happened? Because we track where every boat is every second of every day. We have it on GPS. You know, our vice president of fishing operations looks at it like, you know, a risk board. He just, he looks at his computer all day.

So I called him and he said that they had seen, they had been put on those menhaden by a spotter aircraft. They were unaware of the Tarpin fishermen nearby, but they saw the boats. they said there were about three quarters of a mile away from the tarpurn fisherman, and they made their sets. They made two sets. And I guess that's when the chatter on the radio occurred. I don't know, you know, I'm not going to, I don't know what happened on the radio. But they made their two sets, and then they saw, they had a number of sharks, and I think maybe one or two tarpun is what the captains told me they observed.

And then they saw the recreational boats come to them. So they're three quarters of mile away and the wreckboats are coming to them with their cameras out and filming. And I guess that's where they got their footage. Each boat made two sets and then they took off. So it was probably maybe there an hour. They said they could see that the wreck boats had stayed in that area for a while, I guess trying to, I don't know what they were doing. But he said that he thought they were trying to.

trying to see if any tarpon floated. And he said that he saw the shark and the tarpon. When he basically rolled out his net, like after the set was over, and he, you know, unlatched it and brought it back in, he said that he saw the tarpon and the sharks swim away. So he did not report any dead tarpenter shark, but, you know, I think that's just, you know, what gets caught in there. But I do think, you know,

I would suggest to both sides. You know, we can throttle down this rhetoric and this animosity. And my guys can probably do a little better in some instances. And, you know, I know the recreational guys, you know, I've heard reports and I've seen video of them come and look for trouble near us. And, you know, I think sometimes this rhetoric just gets too high. Yeah, man, and I realize that, not from, and not speaking of, I will say, if it didn't come across in the episode, like all three of the guys that I talked to remain the respectable tone the entire time when talking about the industry. They acknowledge there's conflict there. Where I did see some vitriol was on social media.

You know, I saw some definite like, who, this is a hot topic, you know. But the thing is, man, it's like, and again, I tried my best to address that. in the original episode, like, this is a complex issue. I understand that. You know, there's, there's guys on the recreational side. There's also charter guides. They're thinking about the resource, you're thinking about their jobs. Right. What, what you're doing on the commercial side, there's jobs involved, there's livelihoods there. I understand that. Where I'm trying to find is like, I guess the thing that I was talking about with the other guys, like, is there a way, in your opinion? Is there a way where you can, where you can find a way to operate that,

minimizes conflict. So, you know, whether the, whether that tarpin died or not, you know, whether, is there a way that we can minimize those sort of events where the recreational guys and the charter fishing guides can be happy? There's, we can look forward to like, hey, what we're doing here for the resource is sustainable. Is there a way where we can find that ground for for everybody to work? I mean, we hope to. We hope to. So, you. you know, as you noted, Minhaiden fisheries has been, you know, harvesting in the Atlantic, probably going back 145 years in the Gulf,

it's probably closer to 80 or 90 years. Again, we never had these conflicts until a handful of years ago. And I don't know, my sense is that recreational fishermen weren't just biting their tongue that whole time. You know, I don't know. I don't know what changed. And if it was a new narrative or, you know, special interest groups on their side said, hey, we should make this an issue.

I don't know. But I do know that we try to adhere to the best available science when we conduct our fishing operations. And that starts with most recent stock assessment. You know, what is being harvested is that at a sustainable level? or key predators being receiving enough menhaden in their diet so that their populations are not are not dipping. And I think those are the, you know, the questions we need to ask. Secondly, bycatch, a huge issue, right?

I mean, that, that's, that, the user conflict in bycatch is what I hear the most of. And, you know, as you talked about in your, in your episode, you know, a really landmark bycatch report was released a few months ago. And, you know, you could get anything you wanted out of that, right? You know, recreational anglers saw something and they found, you know, oh, well, buycatch is problematic. I think the commercial side said, well, listen, we were told that red drum buycatch was through the roof, and this survey indicated that perhaps it's not.

You know, so I think to me it's do the, or the regulators being. kept up at night because of too many fish being removed or bycatch. And I guess we have not seen that, you know, that reaction from the fisheries managers in the golf that, you know, I believe them to be unbiased and independent. And if they don't believe that there's a concern or a need for extra regulation, then let's go fish. Then it goes back on the sectors to make sure. that, you know, user conflicts or minimized as best we can.

Right. I guess that would be the way that I would answer that. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed and there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is

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He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. So when you saw, I think the number, without looking at the whole, you know, the numbers of that entire report, I think it was like 22,000 brains as redfish. So you as an industry, like y'all thought, I mean, obviously,

You all just think that that's not a very concerning number as far as the population as a whole in population effects? That's not a concerning number? No, well, I think we, it was a number and it was a goal to shoot for it to try to reduce. So, you know, one thing we learned, I mean, this bycatch report is, the big part of it is obviously understanding what's in the bycatch. But we looked at it as an industry of what can be approved. and we learned that rollover bycatch, you know, bycatch it stays in the net

the whole time throughout the set had a success rate, you know, 86%, 85, 86% if it stays in the net throughout the pumping. If it goes into the pump

and onto the vessel, survivability was incredibly low. So what can we do as an industry to make sure that those fish don't go in the fish hose? So before the season started, we configured a different hose cage so that there were more bars to ensure that larger fish bump off of those bars and don't get sucked up the hose. we then throughout the year we just kind of kept tinkering with it you know what if we added a bar here and i don't think that the the final story on that is told but our goal is to have a hose cage that when it's in operation that 22,000 number reduces so that they stay in the fish hole and then when you let go of the net and the set is over these

guys, the bycatch scientists stayed and they said, are we seeing these fish swim away? And they did at a rate of about 86% survival rate. So that was kind of the impetus of the industry trying to improve our operations to lower that 22. And again, we're just talking about red drum, but for all fish, lowering that number and keeping them in the water. Because we did find out that and, you know, hand up, we didn't, we thought that they had a higher survivability if it went on the vessel and went off to the other side, but it doesn't. So, you know, we've got to do our best to keep them in that water as long as possible. So y'all are, like, seeking out ways to reduce that bycatch and reduce more quality. So, again, there was not a standardized hose cage, even within the plants.

Like, I work in the Abbeville facility. The vessels had different cages between themselves, and then obviously we had a different one than the West Bank vessels out of Empire and Moss Point. So we work with them pretty closely over at West Bank, and we said, let's design a cage that is standardized throughout the fishery. And I think we're still just tinkering with it to see what works and what doesn't. Now, the season wrapped up this week, but we were able to run with some different designs over the course of this season to try and reduce that. Gotcha. Going back to Buffer Zone, like I know there's a lot of talk. I think there's something coming up on this next Friday that implications for buffer zones and everything.

I know, like, again, going back to the guys that I interviewed on the recreational side, a lot of their, a lot of their, a lot of. lot of the factor that they were hinging on on finding common ground was that buffer zone, right? Are you in favor of maintaining a half-mile buffer zone? Do you think there shouldn't be any buffer zone, except for in a few areas like Grand Isle? What are your views on buffer zones? So we support a proposal that would keep the half-mile buffer in place, and then with the exception of a handful of areas that were identified that are less recreational fishing hotspot.

So, you know, I've seen online a great deal, and listen, we're the, where the villain being attacked most of the time. But, you know, it was never going, we've never suggested on a coastwide basis moving in from a half mile to a quarter. What we did is identified areas that when we're out fishing, do you see, recreational anglers in this area? No. Do you see camps? You know, if it's marsh, could you move that buffer from a half to a quarter in those areas, but maintain the bigger areas that recreational anglers love? That would not change at all under what we suggested. Now, what wildlife and fisheries is ultimately going to do, but listen, it would have been easy to say all 300 linear miles of Louisiana coastline move into a quarter.

But we didn't do that. We took a concerted approach to say, you know, let's pick our spots here. You know, and I think what the map that we had kind of worked up was roughly maybe a quarter of those miles would go from a half to a quarter. And everything else would stay the same as is. Yeah. So I guess the question there is the reason it came to mind is that going back to that bycatch study is, I think it, I mean, it is important to notate that that study was taken place when those buffer places that are those buffer zones that are now. So one could reasonably presume like, hey, if we reduce these buffer zones in any stretch, like that could that couldn't mean that bycatch is going to go up. I don't think it would go up in any order of magnitude from what we've understood. And, you know, as we understand that bycatch report, and again, these guys run our vessels for a year. Right.

You would almost have to go out miles to see any material buycatch reduction. You know, so it's, you know, I think we're talking a half mile to a quarter mile. My understanding of what the bycatch report said is that you would not. see a dramatic difference in that quarter of a mile. And so, and you're like if, if they wanted to do like a three mile wide buffer zone like they were talking about in the first episode, that's not, that's not feasible? Is that what you're saying? No, it really isn't.

And Menhaden, so what Menhaden do is they come out in the early morning and then during the bulk of the day, they go inside the marsh. Because if you're a Manhattan, you're always, in a school, right? You're always schooled up. A single Manhattan is going to be gobbled up by a predator. And then, you know, late in the afternoon, they come out again. And, you know, do we catch fish outside of three miles? Of course. But the bulk of those fish, or I would say, you know, near shore, and, you know, that's where they are. So, You know, we just feel that we have the same, right?

It's a livelihood to us. And listen, those guys, they seem to acknowledge it. I'll give you the, I'll give them credit in that regard that, you know, nobody said, let's shut them down. But I think if you were three miles and out, even one mile and out, I think you would see a dramatic reduction in fish catch. And again, this is how these guys get paid. They get paid on fish catch. And I hope this is not offensive to your audience, but I've always suggested that a man's livelihood should at least be treated equally, if not more preferred, than another man's hobby. Now, I understand charter fishing is different, and we're happy to work with those guys, but if these guys don't catch fish between Monday and Friday, they don't get paid.

And, you know, that's incredibly important to me. Yeah, I guess, and it's like the the questions I have coming from the other side are it's like, well, or the arguments that I hear going the other way, it's like, well, at the rate of the way they're catching fish, the amount of menhaden they're bringing in, the bycatch, the habitat loss or habitat degradation, like there's concerns around the longevity. Is that, you know what I mean? Like the longevity of like how long can, is, do you? Do you. believe the way that y'all are harvesting menhaden now? Do you believe that that is sustainable? Not just for Minhaiden, but for the industry, for the entire fishery, for the Gulf in that area? Well, I do. And I think the proof is in the, you know, the fact that we're a very old fishery that we've been doing this. And listen, I wasn't around in the 60s and 70s, but when there were no buffer zone and they were, you know, double the amount of Pogueboat captains out there, I'm I'm certain that they got right up on that beach.

You know, now that there is a greater scrutiny on you, I think you're seeing that this degree of harvest is not unusual. It's been occurring in the Gulf in Louisiana. There are three Gulf plants now. And just in the 1990s, there were six or seven. And, you know, they've always been around and Pogi is still around. And you've got to remember, Louisiana calls itself Louisiana Sportsman's Paradise. And that moniker came when they were double the Pogi plants or triple the Pogi plants and double the vessels. So I think the attention being shown to the fishery now, you know, we should always be harvesting sustainably and responsibly on the

water. But I think if you saw a collapse in the fishery at any time, you would have probably seen it when there were more vessels in greater effort, you know, out on the water. If you, kind of final question here for you, Ben, you can tell me if my assumption is wrong, but I would reasonably assume that like the kind of the amount of conflict that's happening between commercial and recreational is not ideal for anybody right like nobody's like man we we love this more conflict no one's doing that right um so when i talk to the guys on the recreational side and the charter guides like they drew up their idea of like how we could solve this issue where you know we know the resources okay we can do our jobs and the commercial guys can do their jobs on your end

what is your ideal scenario for sustainable take, operating a commercial fishery, and minimize conflict with recreational guys? What would you draw up if you had a magical? No, thanks. I mean, I would love to see this die down. I mean, I think the rhetoric's gotten out of control. I think if everyone acknowledged and respected the other party, too often where, you know, I see it. And again, I'm incredibly sensitive to this. The fishermen that I represent are vilified.

And we need to take, you know, take the pressure out of that kettle. Now, is there more steps that could occur? Like, we're trying to reduce the bycatch by adding, you know, different hose configurations. We've, the companies combined to spend over $3 million. on getting stronger, different nets to reduce the number of fish spills and net tears. And you've seen that reduced dramatically. You know, probably, I think a few years ago there were, you know, 15 to 20 maybe and now this year. I think there were two.

And those were instances where, you know, the vessel just, the net got under the vessel. So, you know, I think we're doing what we can. to be as responsible as possible on the water. And we abide by all the regulations that are put on us. So I think that's where we are. I mean, all we can do is control what we do, play within the rules. And we always have an open door. I've met with the recreational anglers, these groups, you know, CCA members,

listen, a number of those guys I consider friends. We always have an open door. Those discussions have not led to any, any great place, but we're always willing to do it. You know, sometimes I think perhaps some of these groups don't, you know, they kind of like the, the fervor and the campaign, but we always have an open door and we'll meet with anybody to try and figure this out because it is better for everyone when there's not as much tension out there in the water because ultimately it's about safety and we don't want anything to escalate to a bad

place. Well, man, like I said, I can tell you what I'm for. And like when I do this show, especially when I do a formal episode, I've said it all the time on several episodes, like, my job is not to tell anyone how to think. My job is to try my best to present both sides and let people make up their own mind what they want to do. Yeah. I can tell like one thing that I am unequivocally advocate for is sustainable habitats,

our, you know, the safety and the longevity of our natural resources. So with all that being said, man, unless you have anything else to add, I'm appreciative of your time. And I thank you for being willing to come on and share, you know, this side of it. Sure. Happy to. And listen, you're a Mississippi guy, right? Yep. Yep. Born and raised. Listen, you have a, you have an open door at our Moss Point facility. If you ever want to come over there, obviously, and Abby, Louisiana, if you ever want to come, you know, we believe as a company, we have a great story to tell. We just try to seek audiences to tell it too. So if you're ever, you know, down on the coast and have a few hours, just give us a call. We'd love to tour you around.

I appreciate it. Sure, thank you, Ben. All right, man, have a going. And that's going to wrap us up for this bonus episode. If you haven't yet, be sure to also go back and listen to the Puggeyboat episode so you can be equipped with both perspectives, and if you care to do any further research, you can find more of those published studies at the TRCP website. I want to thank all of you for listening to Backwood University, as well as Bear

Greece, in this country life. It means a whole lot to all of us here, and we'll see all next week. First Lights Fieldwear collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days in real use, hard wearing where they need to be, versatile where it matters, no shortcuts, just gear designed for the work that earns the season. Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new fieldware gear at firstlight.com.