Bear Grease - Ep. 413: Render - Boots, Bucks, and Willard the Mule

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

In this episode of the Bear Grease Render, host Clay Newcomb—alongside Bear Newcomb, Dr. Misty Newcomb, and Josh “Landbridge” Spielmaker—is joined by Clay’s squirrel-hunting “sensei,” Michael Lanier. The crew covers a wide range of topics, from Clay’s trophy deer “Jimminy Christmas” and his relationship with his Tecovas boots to the pressing question of whether he needs a haircut. The conversation eventually goes full mule when Michael brings his trusty mule, Willard, into the studio, sparking a deeper discussion about the recent Bear Grease Podcast episode on Ty Evans. Thank you to our sponsor, Tecovas. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Well, today is a, we've got a lot of ground to cover. I'm very excited about all the things we're going to talk about.

I'm mainly excited about having Misty Newcomb back on the podcast. No doubt. After a long time being gone. I thought she got fired in a while. Yeah, there's a lot of rumors that go around that people get fired from the render. Only like four people have ever been fired from the render. I'm just kidding. That was a joke.

No one laughed. No one's ever been fired for the render. I was curious enough, I was one of them. No one's ever been fired for the render. Just people come in and out of availability. People, things happen and they just, I mean, like Malachi Nichols. I bet most people don't even remember maybe who Malachi was, but he was an original render cast member.

And he was with us for- And one on one of the very early Bear Greece episodes. Yeah, and I mean, basically, like just his job and the amount of time it took to come down in the middle of the day, he just couldn't come. So Misty's not been fired. She's just been busy. She's been doing stuff. So great to have you back.

Good to be. We've got to have Gary, the believer, nuke him back on sometime as well. Oh, I thought he got fired. Well, Dad may have been fired. But we'll rehire him. We got Josh. We got Bear John here. Yep.

But in the Tukovas hot seat. Eo. Toccova's hot seat. We have a new delineation that we're going to put all our special guests in, which is what we're going to call the Toccova's hot seat. And in case you don't know, I wear Tocovas every single day of my life. John Mescoe, my dad's, one of the believers, one of the believers' best friends, John Mesco, all as a kid, John Mesco wore cowboy boots. And I remember him telling me that cowboy boots

are the most comfortable shoes in the world if you break them in. And I find that to be true. my feet get claustrophobic when I tie shoes. I mean, I can pop these shoes off and not even break eye contact. And I can put them back on. That's that even mean. What does it even mean to not break eye contact? Like in case you need to get in bed in a hurry?

I mean, I just, I'm a boot man. And that's why I'm very proud that Tocovas, Tocovas boots out of Austin, Texas, is our new, they're coming along on the Bear Grease Road Show with us. That's right. And so we have a chair now for our special guest. And my friend Michael Lanier is in the Tocobos hot seat tonight. And if you're listening to not watching, you would see that this rocking chair actually has a pair of Toccovis boots on it.

Yeah. So impressive. So, Michael has been introduced many times as my Jedi Master Squirrel Sensei. Is that the title you most like appreciate? Is that like on your business card? Is that top of the list? Yeah. Actually the our office lady got me business a business card holder with a squirrel coming out of it.

Oh, really? Yeah. All right. Wow. So you're an electrician by trade. Mm-hmm. But Michael, Michael helped me get into the squirrel world. And so he's still, he's my, he's my Jedi Master.

squirrel sensei. I wonder if we should clarify what the squirrel world that you've gotten into is. It's real clear. A squirrel has a lot of value to me and Michael when it's being treed by a dog. There we go. Somebody the other day asked me, they said something about going squirrel hunting, and I was like, you bet. And they were like, yeah, we'll take some scope 22s and just kind of slip hunting around. And I kind of looked at them and I was kind of like, dang man you know what i don't i probably can't go i was i was i'm double booked like a squirrel has value to me was being treated by a dog i mean i i value the life of the squirrel and his nobility in wild places but when he's in my hand it only means something if he's

been treated by a dog do you understand i agree yep sensei yes yeah so big squirrel dog man Now, right now, tell me about your dog's situation right now, though, Michael. It's pretty bleak. Okay. Got two young dogs at the house, haven't hardly hunted them. They'll be a year old this spring. They're barking at yard squirrels, and that's about all they know. Yeah.

But you go through a lot of squirrel dogs. Yes. You sell, I mean, Michael's one of these guys. Like, I've known him to sell a dog, but I've also known him to just kind of hand them off to people. I don't mind giving a dog away to a friend that I get to hunt with later on. That's it. That's it. Well, I think that I could keep you in business with the amount of people coming to me and bear looking for squirrel dogs.

Yeah, I don't, I'm out. You're out. I already have a long line and, yeah. Okay, okay, just checking. Just checking. So, yep. Well. Another failed business adventure.

Shugs. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk on this episode about mules. This is the mule episode. But before we talk about mules, there's many things we've got to talk about. First of all, in mid-February, this is a massive announcement. In mid-February, Bear John Newcomb is going to be the primary host of a new YouTube channel.

All right. What? Yes. So what was formerly known as the Bear Hunting Magazine YouTube channel is going to be the Bear Grease YouTube channel. And we're going to produce weekly content. It's going to be a whole lot of bear going out. It's going to be YouTube native content. Bears have been gathering content for six months.

what what's some of the stuff that'll be on the on the on the on the channel bear well we've got we've got some squirrel hunting we've got some a lot of self-bow hunts we've got elk hunt a lot of bow making content we've got a hawk trapping and training video I went with my buddy to south Texas and we trapped hawks and then trained him to hunt so you Yeah, a lot of up front we're going to have a lot of hunts, a lot of self-bow stuff. But as we go, it'll get more and more diverse. Yeah. Well, it's going to be super exciting for Barry. And I'll be on the channel some too. Brent will be as well. It's going to be all things, bear grease, but like in a YouTube style channel.

So it's going to be really great. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be good. Anything you want to say about that, Misty? Wow. Okay. Moving on.

Thanks for the office. I mentioned last week, or last render, that I killed a big buck. And this is him. That thing is awesome. Yeah, I mentioned it. I just had, I had to show it off. And the buck has a name? Yeah, this is Jiminy Christmas.

Jiminy Christmas showed up on Christmas. day and hunting over, I was hunting in Oklahoma. And hunting over supplemental feed. He showed up on Christmas Day, never seen the buck before my life. And it's bow season over there until January 15th. And, man, big deer are hard to kill over feed. I don't care who you are, if you've never done it. You just don't know how hard they are to kill overfeed.

feed because you've you've concentrated all the activity to one spot and the deer super leery of stuff like that and anyway this deer showed up and he was very sporadic he only came in like two times during the daytime when I wasn't there and but I hunted him for a total I think of four and a half days and I want on this place I hunted Oklahoma when I go down there I have to camp and it's it's it's it's it's just a cool place but um this deer has uh this time right here is 14 and 6 eighths inches long which is a really big time just for a deer he's only 14 and a half inches wide though so he's really narrow it's an impressive rack man what did he score scored 162 and 6 eighths we we actually thought he would score 170

Like me looks like a well just in pictures and video and he wasn't a mass he wasn't a big body deer like when you're judging deer off trail camera pictures like if the deer is in Kansas or if you if you know that oh that's a 220 pound deer and his rack still looks that big you know you you would right this deer on a 250 pound deer would look entirely different than this rack on a hundred and six. 60 to 170 pound deer. It's basically the opposite of people on TV. The camera subtracts 10 pounds. Is that what you're trying to say? On a trail cam? When you look at a deer, the camera subtracts 10 pounds. The camera adds 10 pounds.

Okay. In this case. Yeah, yeah. So we knew my friend Forrest Teeter, who's the one who named him Jiminy Christmas. I texted him and he said, Jiminy Christmas. He about nailed it. I was a little upset with him because he was under. I said, what do you think that deer scores?

And he said, 158. And I was just like, Forest, come on. It's bigger than that. My friend Jordan Blissitt, who's a very good white-tail man. What did Jordan say? Jordan had him figured it between 155 and 168. Well, that's a pretty broad range.

I mean, three inches? Is that that broad? I was already... I'm sorry, 165 and 168. 168. I thought it was 165. But I kind of talked Jordan into... I mean, by the time it was done, we were like, man, that deer probably scored 170.

I said it to several guys that were like, that's a 170-inch deer. And I was like, I think it is. And when I, the first, when I measure, I knew by the first measurement, I was, would know if it was going to score 170. When I measured that main beam, if that main beam was over 25 inches, I felt like it was going to score 170. And the first main beam that I measured was 23 and 6'8s or something. And I kind of went, I bet he won't score it.

But it's not like it matters. This is the biggest deer I've killed in 19 years. And just, I mean, I was like, I mean, just ecstatic. Yeah. What a killing a big deer that you're, that you're, hunting and after and just means something to you is pretty astonishing the way it makes you feel. I don't understand it. I still don't understand it.

I'm 46 years old. I don't understand it. But it was a lot of fun. That's awesome. Yeah. So there's that buck. Yep. So that brings up the next thing we've got to talk about is Michael O'Neer texted me the other day.

Michael's also a mule man, squirrel dog. man but mule man as well. And he said, what do you think my mule Willard is worth? Oh. That's a trick question. That is. That is.

Yeah. Well, it's that you could offend somebody. It's kind of like asking someone. Am I right, Michael? What if I'd have come back and said, oh, he's, Michael,

that mule's worth $7,500. I had a guy tell me that. I did. Are you still friends? We're still friends, but I don't believe him. Well, it would have been offensive.

It's expensive. So I never answered Michael. I just said, I noticed that. Yeah. Because just like Forest Teeters shorted me four inches. Yeah. And I just assumed that that meant he didn't like me as a man. Right. This is what I was going to say to you. And I wanted to have this conversation in person is that what a mule's worth and what you can actually get for it are two very different things. because in some markets, like if you had the choice of markets, I would say there's a day when that meal would bring 20 grand. And you might say there's a day that he would bring 30. But I say there's also a day, most days, he might bring less than that.

It's all about the market. Like if the market is just people like right here within an hour and a half of us, it's less. If the market is America, it's more. But how do you reach America? So what market are we on today? We're in the American market. Perfect.

What you guys don't know yet is we're actually going to bring Willard in here in a minute. And we're going to auction them off. Tell me what... No auction. What do you think he's worth? Tell us about... Give us his stats. I got a number of my head that I wouldn't take any less for him.

I'd just keep him. Okay. Yeah. I like him. He's 14-3, 9 years old, horse mule, John Mule. Male. Yeah. Got a lot of go, good and rough country.

You can shoot off of him. Dogs can crawl all over him. They don't bother him. Carry a hog. Yep. Real pretty. It's a Palomino mule. He's pretty.

He's pretty. He's really well. Muscled out nice. Good feet. Yeah. 143. So a hand. is four inches. And so 14.3 is, I like 57 inches or something. I can't, I can't do the math.

59? Is it 59? Yeah. Okay. So it's, it's in the, the prime height for a mule for selling. Okay. And today's market is going to be between 14-2 and 15, maybe 15-1. Sometimes out west they want a mule a little taller. Around here, they don't as much. But I would say, I'd say 14.3 is like El Primo height. I'd say 14.2. You think he's a little tall? No, I mean, he's, I like him, but I'd say 14.2. If you were to ask most folks, they'd say, I like that height.

Here. Mm-hmm. Okay. Or maybe that's just me. Yeah. How long have you had him? Three, four years, maybe three. Yeah.

I'd have to go back and look at some pictures. He's a really sharp-looking mule. Yeah, great looking. Well, are you going to tell us what you want? want for the meal? Yeah. Well, I tell you what, let's go ahead and bring him in and, and then, and then we'll, we'll talk about it. So let's go get him. Okay. Don't let Tebow run between his legs. Okay, Michael, give us, tell us about this mule. Well, he's 14.3, nine years old, a horse mule, John Mule, you can shoot off of him. Dogs don't bother him. Backs out of him. He backs out of

out of the trailer good got a good stop safe he's safe but he's got a lot of go like yeah he's he's ready to go i wouldn't put grandma on him at all he's got a really beautiful confirmation like top-end confirmation he's got he's got a nice small head sometimes the mules get really big heads he's kind of got a head like a horse he's that palomino color which is really sought after and uh just just got like good muscle tone, big shoulders, nice withers. So the withers is the basically the top of the shoulder right there. And mules typically have small shoulders and no withers so the saddle slides forward. I'd say he's got really good withers. And so you're going to have less trouble with your saddle sliding forward with him. But just like super athletic, he'll jump up on rocks and

rock crawl and do all kind of stuff. Yeah, if you like to get your picture taken on a rock, he's your mule. Yep. He'll back out of a trailer good. You shoot a 44 magnum off of him. Yep, he'll lope right off. He's got a nice low lope to him. But he's got a lot of energy, which is good.

I mean, like, there's a version of a mule where one is just kind of a dead head, where, I mean, you'd just be, like, prodding it to go. It'd be super safe, but it'd just be trudging along. This mule is like a quarter horse. I mean, he's wanting to go. Where you point him, he's going to go. Yep. And so that's why you said, you know, would you put a kid on this meal?

You absolutely could put a kid on that mule, but it's not like the mule's going to buck the kid off. But this mule is going to – it's like putting a kid behind a corvette. Yeah. I mean, it's like, yeah, he could – you kid could – You kid could drive the Corvette, but I mean, he might give it the spurs and, right, yeah. I mean, that's probably a decent analogy, huh? Yeah, you don't have to stay in him for him to keep up with everybody.

Yeah. And nine years old is about when they're in their prime. Prime. Prime. Like, you, the working life of that mule is going to be, I'd say, at least 25 years. They'll live longer than that, most likely. the working life. I was in Utah with McLean Meekam a month ago,

and we rode a mule 80 miles through super rough country. Last day, I asked him, I said, how old is that mule? He said, 25 years old. Wow. For real. So before, I mean, from like six to nine years old is like prime selling age, like this is a young mule. Like this mule is just now coming into his prime.

I would say. And this mule's been squirrel hunted off of a ton, which is squirrel hunting's good for them. I mean, just a lot of activity, a lot of dogs, a lot of shooting, a lot of yelling, a lot of hooping and hollering, people. So somebody can buy this mule. We've got to figure out how they can contact us. But, I mean, this mule is for sale. If you want a top end going Arkansas dead gum mule, this is your mule.

Yep. And it ain't going to be cheap. It is not going to be cheap, no. And I would say, if you've never wrote a mule, never owned a mule, and say, I want to buy this mule, be my first mule, don't. Yeah, that's right. This is not a beginner mule. Yeah, no, no. Yeah, this, this, this meal is for somebody who's really wanting to go, really wanting to use them, wanting to, wanting a top-end mule.

And I've ridden with this mule. I would put my full weight behind anything Michael says. I've ridden with this meal a lot. Mm-hmm. What would you take for it? 15. 15. Yep.

Dude. I want 15,000 for him. I wish he would have talked to me before he said that. Yeah, I was thinking. I was thinking he could get a lot, a lot more than that. Yeah. I was actually, I'm shocked at that number. I'm good with 15.

We'll take 20 for the meal. Okay. Contact me directly. I'm just kidding. No, I think you'll sell that meal all day anywhere in the country for 15. Whoever wants to buy him, if somebody was wanting to buy him, they need to come ride him. We just need to go riding. Yep.

Yeah. No, he's beautiful. He really is. He really is. He's a top-notch mule. Willard is his name. Willard. Yep.

Willard. Well Awesome He's kind of a messy eater He's a little bit of a messy eater He is Yeah His teeth were floated last year

Maybe we need to do a Toccova's mule sale On the podcast Bringing a mule Every episode Well maybe not every episode But Oh for real Michael I actually thought you were going to say

I'd take $23,000 for this mule No Okay you sell that meal all day for 15 but it's to the right people yeah I mean it's to somebody that's a that's an outfitter

that's wanting something really to go these guys around here that hog hunt on mules that really want to go in a working animal I mean that mule would just be as good as they make but yeah he's beautiful well okay so josh how can we how can people get in touch with us let him

an email tebo don't let tibo run out through that mule's legs while it's in bad puppy get back we got another dog coming in here get back dog sorry we got a dog trying to come in behind this mule send send your queries to josh at the meteor dot com and he will get you in touch with michael last spring clay newcomb and i collaborated with jason phelps at phelps game calls and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts now i'm going to tell you i love mine because it's easy to use i'm not going to go i'm not going to win a turkey calling contest it's just not going to happen but when i run this call i get the sounds that gobblers are looking for i have a great turkey hunting track record if you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods they're not going to win

calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime cuts at Phelps game calls.com. I think you'll be glad you did and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy to use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. Okay, so you don't think your wife's going to be happy about this? No, she will not. Why?

Because she feels like I'll regret selling that meal, which she's probably right. I mean, I will have some regret. He's a good mule. Okay, why are you selling the mule? So if I didn't know you, I'd say, why are you selling the meal? Because I want to buy another mule, a younger mare mule, just start riding it. I've got another mule I just bought back in May, and I've been riding her a lot. I haven't rode him since, I don't know when, four or five months maybe.

Yeah, I just don't feel like I'm going to ride him. Well, you did, you did, right? You have ridden him since then. Didn't you take him squirrel hunting the other day? No, I rode my new mule, Phyllis. Okay. Yeah, I rode her, like six out of eight days. It's a good meal name.

Well, what days? What did you ride the other days? We rode hunting. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. I was thinking you rode him. Six out of eight days that I was riding mules.

Yeah, yeah. Well, so it's not like she likes Willard. She just, you just think, she just thinks you're going to regret selling them. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I mean, they just got my, my kids got me a black and white, a picture of him to hang up in the new house for Christmas.

Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of, he's been around a while. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think, Bear?

You think you should sell it? I mean, it sounds like it might be the move If you can't You know, if you don't have the time to ride a bunch of mules Well, Michael's kind of an animal He's kind of a He moves through a lot of animals I do

And they're always good There's some people that move through animals that You're like, you don't want to get something from him Michael's not that guy Michael's moving through stuff just because he loves them And he's and he's He's kind of shuffling dogs around to different people and training dogs and different stuff. And I kind of feel like, that's partly why I brought you here.

I feel like just kind of, you know, psychologically, you're just kind of, you've used up Willard, okay, in your heart. There's no space in your heart for Willard. Well, I mean, you've had him. You know what he can do. and you're just ready to move on. Is it a midlife crisis that you're trying to get a younger model? No. Okay, just checking.

The mule I'm riding now is six. Okay. Well, there is something to be said for riding a mule, like Izzy. Like when I get on Izzy, who I've now had for nine years or so, it loses some of the excitement. Now, there's a satisfaction that comes from just an animal that you just know what's going to happen. Right. But half of the fun of riding a mule is training it, seeing it develop, seeing it grow, and a little bit of that, just uncertainty even.

Right. And so when you have one that you just know what's going to happen, you're less likely to just run out there and saddle it up and ride around. I mean, so I'm the same way. I like to have one up and coming, you know, not all the time, but a fair bit of the time. Michael, did you grow up riding mules? Horses. Horses.

I got into mules. When was it? When did you make that $100, $100 squirrel hunt? $100 squirrel video would have been like 2016. So I probably started riding mules in 2015. Okay. Year before that. Yeah.

How many mules do you think you've owned since then? See, I got three now. Probably six, seven. Okay. So it's not like you've just cycled through 30 mules. Some of them came and went really quick. They were pretty crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that is a really nice mule. That is a nice meal. Very nice meal for sure. Bear's been training his meal. Yep. Slow trap. All slow trap.

This week, I'm going to try and shoot off of them for the first time. Yeah, we're going to go hunt. We're going to go hunt, try to take it on his first big squirrel hunt. well that brings up let's talk about this episode so on the first when i first started bear grease there was i i wrote out 26 potential bear grease episodes with the intent to mock out a year of bear grease because the bear grease proper documentary comes out you know every two weeks so 26 a year and on the list high on the list was a mule episode with tie evans five years ago wow i actually talked to tie on the phone five years ago

and we were we were like going back and forth on how to record with him i mean we were just i was just like just that close to pulling the trigger and there was some issues well we just couldn't i couldn't go up there at that moment and so this has been in the works for a long time Ty and I went in Mountain Line Hunting with a claim meekam in Utah in December. So I was with Ty for a week up there. And in that week, you know, on the episode, Ty said that we had ridden 68 miles. We actually ended up riding over 80. Not counting the, it's hard to describe, but he talked about he ponied some mules for

ways like that I wasn't with him. That's the reason he was saying he had a few more miles than me, which was true. But by the time we got done, we actually rode 80 miles on five days. And it was, oh my goodness, it was. It was a lot. And through rough, rough country. Like, we were on trails occasionally, but mainly just, just following dogs, you know. And so just being there that week with tie is when I really heard the full story of his really transformation. That's a good word to use to describe it from the way he used to train, which he grew up in this training family. His dad was a mule and horse trainer.

And the, so the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, way of breaking a horse or mule is just that just go grab a wild Mustang off of the range rope it put it in a corral catch it put a saddle on it get on it and just buck it out i mean that's kind of that's an exaggerated shortened version but i mean that's kind of what the cowboy way was and that's the way a lot of horse training, meal training was done for generations and still is done by many people. And it does work. That's the thing, is that it actually does produce an animal that you can ride and that can be safe. But these guys practice in natural horsemanship started coming around.

And it's not like one person just discovered this. Like it wasn't Buck Branneman just all on his own. He was one that became really famous for it and well-known. Pat Porelli, Ray Hunt, the Dorrance Brothers, many others. I mean, I'm not even qualified to start name-dropping these names, but these are the people that started this natural horsemanship stuff, where you actually started to try to understand the way a horse or a mule thought as opposed to just inflicting, you know, kind of your will on this animal.

It was really wild. We watched that documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Love that documentary. It's quite moving. It is. Yeah, the Buck documentary.

And that was before we had meals. I mean, that was before we were equine people. And at that time, we watched it, and it was very moving. Anybody could watch it, and it would be massively interesting. Yeah. It was interesting. Have you ever watched it, Michael? Yeah.

It's good. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. You watched it, Josh? Back in the day. Back in the day. Back in the day. What stood out to y'all in the episode?

So I was in it deep, neck deep with tie. What stood out to y'all listening to it, just cold turkey? Who will go first? Ladies first. We're all looking at Misty. I can go first. I like this episode a lot because, as many people know, I've been working with Slow Trap.

and he's been the first mule that I've ever trained. But I trained him using the natural horsemanship. I went over to Elvis Middleton's. Yeah. And he kind of showed me the ropes on that, pressure and release, kind of learned the fundamental principles of it. And then I trained slow trap this summer and could really see the, you know,

really kind of saw that unfold, like what it really looks like. And the biggest thing that I noticed was what Ty was. what Ty was saying was that you can't ask that mule to be something that you're not and it really made sense to me after train and slow trap that like if

you know like when a lot of my flaws would reflect in his behavior pretty much. Shaggy hair? Yeah. He does he does need a haircut right now. So does his

partner bear? But I really liked the podcast because it kind of displayed a lot of those principles. And I think they're really powerful principles just in life. Like after turning slow trap, I kind of looked at the way that I did everything differently. Like I looked at the way that I made bows differently. I mean, I saw that like the, the, the, the, the, the, the, my bows that I was making in a lot of ways were reflection of me as a craftsman. Like if I was taking shortcuts, that bow was going to take shortcuts. And it wasn't going to perform the way you needed to.

And then it just kind of like rippled out through all the areas of my life. But I really liked the episode because it's a, it's a really, it's a good way, like you can really understand it with the mules whenever you're training an animal. But that principle kind of can ripple all through your life. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the thing. And I think that's what stood out about even when we watched the book.

film a long time ago is this whole idea that you can't expect people you can't ask people to do what you've not to become who you've not become and and I think as a parent that that is a super important concept I'm an educator an education that you can apply that principle you can really apply it you can apply it anywhere and and I think that that's that's what was was really meaningful to me you and I talked about this whenever you came back and you were where Izzy was the first, maybe the first or second meal you ever trained. The first one up fully trained. Yeah.

And she's, she's, she's sassy. She's sassy. She's sassy. And, and I think that that probably is a reflection of, you know, Clay's a little sassy. True. But not, not even that you're just, you were probably a little shorter with Izzy. It's kind of interesting watching you train banjo, watching Izzy, watching Bear train, work with banjo and work with this with Slow Trap.

You know, Slow Trap, we joke around that he's practically a dog. Like, he'll come into a whistle. He's pretty funny as a mule. He's not a... He's super gentle. Super laid back. Super laid back. Barry answers to his name.

Kind of like Bear. Kind of. Yeah. And it's just kind of interesting. And it brings up, I just thought the podcast brought up a lot of, you know, bigger ideas. That whole thing of you have to, you have to change. You have to transform to get the people around you to transform, the people that you're leading to transform. And I think that was such a big principle inside of parenting. Like, you can't ask your

kids to be well-behaved if you're, you know, angry and all that. But I also think there's a, there's, the podcast, it's something else I thought was kind of interesting that I wasn't expected. And that was the part about just kind of putting putting away the ways that you're maybe the past coming into new ways of doing things. Yeah. And I think that those two things can merge

really well, even inside of our lives. You know, like, there would be things that we would have done in the past that we wouldn't do anymore. Right. I mean, I think it's a good, it's a good podcast to think about those things. So this book, I talked about this book,

and I didn't really mention the significance that it had in the industry, but this book, evidence-based horsemanship, I believe I've got it right here. Where is it? I've got it somewhere. Here it is. Oh, stepped on myself.

This book right here, evidence-based horsemanship. Before I ever had mules, I read that book. A guy just mentioned it and was like, hey, you should read it, and I did. And a whole premise of it was the way that the equine industry has been trained in animals is just not that. the right way. And so you're going to have to like, you know, going back to that one quote about just because, you know, it's been done this way for 50 years. For 50 years. Doesn't negate that it

could be done wrong for 50 years. And this, oh, I could talk about that book. I could talk about that book forever. But the thing that I remember from this is that humans look at something and we we assume that it thinks like us. And this neuroscientist talks about how a horse or a mule doesn't have a place in his brain to like you or dislike you. Like I like or dislike Josh. And they actually talk about the brain science of a horse and a mule have these huge brains, but most of it is for control of actual physical elements of the body to control all these muscles. Like you need a bigger hard drive to be able to control 1,200 pounds of muscle.

And the frontal lobe of the horse or the mule is very small. And a human frontal lobe is very big. And all the things that make us human that, you know, like our ability to reason, our ability to love, our ability to think about spiritual things. Like, to me, like, the breath of God that makes us human, like, where that stuff happens, a lot of it is registering in the frontal lobe of a human, and a horse just basically doesn't have one, or has a small one. And so when you go out in the pasture, like a common thing in the equine world would be like, oh, that horse doesn't like me.

Right. And basically this book is like, that horse doesn't have an option in its brain to like you or dislike. you. What he is focused on is security, uh, leadership. I mean, an equine animal has one question to answer when you walk up to it. And it's the only language that it knows is who's in charge. It's like if, if I had, if, if, if the simplicity of my operating capacity as a human, it basically was just one thing. I like, I would walk up to every person I've met and I would go, who's in charge, you or me? Who's in charge, you or me?

Like, that's the only question I have. Right. And in a way, that's the way an equine animal is. And when you set the tone for you being the leader, it's fine with that. But if you don't answer that question, you're going to have problems. And then obviously, every animal is a little bit different. Some of them are going to be harder. But this book dispels a ton of myths.

about training. And this is not all about natural horsemanship, but it kind of bleeds into what Brandaman and all these guys were talking about. But yeah, and you talking about Izzy, this first mule that I trained. My insecurity as a trainer translated into me being really harsh with her, not like abusive, but just harsh.

Like when she didn't do what I wanted, honestly, I was intimidated by that. And so rather than finding a better way, a better way to ask it a question, essentially in training, you're asking an animal a question. You're saying, will you turn to the right? Will you turn to the left? Will you follow my leadership?

And basically, my intimidation would not really understanding the animals when it wouldn't do what I wanted. I would just come in harder with the same question. And finally, it would do it. But my intensity would rise. so much. So would hers. And all of a sudden you had this, like, massive tension.

And to this day, Izzy's like that. Part of it's probably just her nature. But part of it absolutely goes back to her training. Yeah. And she's become a really mule that I love and can do anything on the world on. But your animal reflects what you put out. And what I take away from it, what I've learned, inside a train and an animal

is this the energy that we put out as people and I don't mean sometimes using that phraseology might sound like something weird or something I'm not talking about something weird I'm literally talking about the

the energy that we put out just with our personality the way we speak our blood pressure like being high or low I mean affects people around us. Oh, yeah. And Ty talked about being flat. Actually, I can't remember if on this episode

you're not, but man, when you're around an equine animal, it's like being able to just like drop your blood pressure, just drop your expectations. And it helps so much. Yeah. But I think there's, we can't ask an animal to be something that you're not. Yeah. Can't yell at your kids and tell them to calm down while you yourself are yelling at your kids. Yeah, yeah. Not calm. Well, it makes me, it makes me think a lot. We talk with new teachers a lot about control because, because like you, you were describing

yourself with Izzy, control is like a new teacher is insecure. They don't, I mean, it's the scariest thing you've ever done, is staying up in front of a group of teenagers and preschoolers and ask them to do what you say. I mean, it's just terrifying. And because you don't know if they're going to do it or not. And that, they feel it. They know it. They know where that you are. And your tendency is to grasp for greater control in those moments. It's like I feel insecure and so I'm going to try to hold this tighter. I'm going to be more and I'll get it. And it just never works. It never works. The kids respond to the person who's... Certainty, confidence. Yeah, confidence, certainty. And also just what you're putting on them.

like they don't your respect for them yeah yeah yeah i mean your respect for them it's like yeah sometimes you just need law and order but sometimes you just need to hear give them a voice let them hear what they have to say you don't need to just control every single thing and so yeah sometimes if you put that on them if your control and your desire to to manage them if you put that on them they're going to buck against that you have to kind of respect who they are and respect that this is their space as well and and let's all let's hear what you've got to say yeah I thought that point, because Ty made that same point, he said they can see, they know when you know, and they know when you don't.

Yeah. And that's the truth. Yeah. Whatever you're riding a mule, if you give it anything, it'll take everything. Yeah. Because it's just, like, if you put someone who, like whenever I first started riding mules, you know, it wasn't too strict on what the, you know, whenever they'd eat grass or something. And then throughout the ride, they'd start eating more and more and more.

And then you'd kind of lose control of them. because they'd want to stop every time. Yeah, they see grass to eat. Right. I thought that was an interesting point. Yes, yeah, that was good. Michael, what stood out to you? Well, leadership part of it stood out to me.

I mean, I've seen it within companies where, you know, whoever's running it, if they're not the best to work for, not the best to be around, you know, say they're a screamer, maybe they're not very confident, so they just, you know, just jump up and down. try to get their point across that it just it trickles down to everybody around them. Yeah. Yeah.

What about with, what about with mules? Did you, like, there wasn't any real specific meal training stuff. Like, we weren't really like trying to teach people how to train a mule necessarily. But I don't know. Did you, do you hear anything that stood out to you? Well, I listened to the, you know, he said, make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. Yeah.

And I was a little bit, like, I don't completely understand that. Like, I get making the right thing easy. Yeah. But if you walk up and you're wanting your meal to jump up on that rock and you sit there and spin it in circles, go around the rock 500 times. I mean, an hour later, I mean, making that right thing easy would be me putting the spurs in its ribs until it gets up on that rock. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if that, I have no idea what he's trying to say there.

Like, what would the wrong thing? Well, here's the best example that I've got. And Ty, if he were here, I have no doubt he could give us many great examples. But like when they, he told me one time that he had a mule. I can't remember the exact scenario. Forgive me, Ty. But like there was a mule that was worried about going through a gate. and every time they got to the gate,

the mule would start to get kind of watchy and wanting to not go through it. And so he started riding like big circles around the arena. And every time he would get to the gate, he would try to stop to let the mule rest in the zone that it was nervous. And if it was nervous and uneasy, he'd just write it again.

And basically the right thing to do was to be confident and go through the gate. And he made it hard everywhere else but the gate. You see what I'm saying? Does that make sense? That may not be

exactly what he did, but that would be one example of it. And it is a lot easier to visualize making the right thing easy. And that's one of the biggest thing with riding these animals is, and I make this mistake probably every time I ride, but you can tell for sure when somebody doesn't know what they're doing, they ask the mule to do something that the mule is not going to do. And then the mule doesn't do it.

And then the mule is like, well, this guy's not in charge. because he told me to do that. I didn't do it. And now we're just riding up the trail. Yeah. You know, and so that's when I ride with new people, I'm just like, whatever you ask it to do, make sure it does it. From small things to just going around the tree, to backing up, to stopping, to going

into a trot or just whatever. Just make sure that the commands that you give, are clear and that you make the animal follow through with what you've asked it to do. And it's not hard on it. But like Bear said, you put a kid on even a good mule. You can put a kid, you can put a kid on a $15,000 mule. And by, in two hours, in 20 minutes, that mule might just be wandering around doing what it wanted to do. I mean, just because it's, they're very perceptive of,

A mule will elevate and lower to the skill of the rider. Right. I've heard a lot of mule guys say that when you're selling a mule, you're like, I mean, you got to make sure the person that's riding the mule knows what's going on. Mm-hmm. You know, and, so. But anything else saying that to you, Michael? I'm sure something did.

Well, when I listen to it, I had a great appreciation for just ties process into the whole thing, you know, watching his dad break horses and horses, the cowboy way. And I have really great appreciation for someone who can watch that and not condemn it, but also watch that and then find that. ways to do it better. Like as a father, you know, I look back and I made some, I made some boneheaded mistakes raising my kids. And I want my kids, you know, I think there's a lot of people like, I want my kids to raise their kids like I did. I want my kids to do it better than I did. And I think Ty was able to say, hey, that worked for a time, but there's a better way. And not condemn that, but be able to just take these new things that he observed and that he learned, I appreciate how he applied himself to learning something different, something that other people hadn't done

in the past, and became successful with it. I mean, that's the thing that makes people stand out. I think that really shows the character of who Ty is, and I think that's the thing that really stood out to me the most. Yeah. Yeah, that's a hard thing to do something different. I mean, I guess there's some version of fatherhood and sonhood or just parents where, you know, there's some people out there that would say, oh, I knew for sure I was not going to do things like my mom and dad did. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag.

And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God. He doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't.

This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something.

I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. But it's not even about father and son. It's more about what's the cultural norm? for the way things are done. And it could be in electrical work. It could be in training, it could be in training, it could be in business, it could be. But just to be able to have enough overarching perspective to see that something's being done completely the wrong way and be able to transform to something.

To me, that's what always appealed to me about natural horsemanship, is that it was just like so different. And it was kind of cool, though, to see. see Ty and to see him he was a bronch rider before which being a bronch rider literally is you're purposely getting on to the back of an untrained animal right and bucking with it just because it's fun yeah and uh i know when i was making videos about training mules uh nine years ago a bucking mule video does better than a non bucking mule video And so I trained Izzy in my version, you know, just the best way I knew how, but it was very heavily influenced by several of these natural horsemanship guys.

And she never bucked. I mean, you know, when I finally came to get on her, you know, I remember I did this countdown on YouTube. Oh, it was good, Michael. Where I was like, okay, I've trained her, trained her, trained her, trained her, today I'm getting on her for the first time. And I did this countdown one, or, you know, 10. nine, eight.

And I'm, you know, like, holding on to the saddle and kind of shaking the saddle and slapping her on the back, letting her know I'm about to get on. And, you know, the viewer is just thinking, oh, this sucker's just going to buck him off when he gets on there. And, you know, I throw my leg over, and she just kind of sits there, does nothing, won't even move.

And I get off. And, I mean, it's like, when? Probably didn't go viral. it did though it's one of the best videos on the former bear honey magazine now bear grease channel

yeah it got like multiple millions of views actually um but uh but bear kind of ran into the same thing he was yeah he was making some videos was training slow trap and slow trap did the exact same thing so I mean

Ty was saying yeah it's kind of fun when they buck yeah but it but if you're buying an animal from somebody, I wouldn't want to buy one that they bucked out. No. I would want to buy one that never bucked a kick in his life, you know. But who trained Willard? Warren Campbell owned him.

That's who I bought him from. And I believe he took him to an Amish guy to get him started, and then Warren wrote him. Okay. He wrote him a lot. In fact, that's where he got his name, Willard, from an Amish. Oh, the Amish called him Willard? Warren told me he went to tie the mule up at the Amish guy's place,

and he was talking to the guy and his son, the Amish son, come riding his bike down the driveway, stought and skid, you know, turned his bike real sharp right there by the mule. And the guy was like, now Willard, you can't be doing that. And so... Warren would tell the story. better, but I believe that's what happened. So Warren was like, this mule's name is Willard.

Yeah. That's a great. That's good. That's good. That's good. Well, it's a, it's a good name. It is a good name. It is.

Willard. Willard. Yeah, it is. Well, this, I hope these episodes have been entertaining for people that aren't into equine animals. I know before I was into equine animals, I was interested in horses and mules just kind of from a specter. tator position, you know.

Right. But, but no, Ty Evans, just Salt of the Earth guy, just a fantastic guy. And we're going to try to get him to come to Northwest Arkansas and do a clinic. Oh, that'd be fun. He can't do it this year.

He's already booked up, but potentially in 27. Nice. He said he would do it. So let me ask you this, whenever he's talking about making a bridle mule, I mean, his level of commitment, at six to eight years?

Yes. What? I mean, I don't know what a bridle horse or bridle mule is, but. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of time in one animal. I mean, I probably know just a touch more than you because we talked about it while we were in Utah. But that term, a bridal horse, actually means something.

It's a category of training for a for a horse that basically, just it's a series you go from different bits you go from like this bit a hack this bit i think it's a hack to a snaffle to solid yeah i'm not sure something like that it's a progression and then but by the time one is a bridal mule that it's just the Cadillac of all animals in terms of control safety and um yeah very few people make bridal mules today you know that are actually like finishing them out to that. And that's what he's trying to do with. And not everybody wants a bridal mule.

It's a highly trained responsive ranch or show horse typically developed over several years using the traditional vicaro method. The extensive process involves transitioning through different stages of headgear, results in a finely tuned animal that can be ridden with subtle cues and often with one hand on a loose rain. The ultimate goal is a reliable partner for ranch work and competition capable of complex maneuvers with minimal guidance. Also, it could be referring to bridal mule, a bridal horse, a horse used in weddings.

But I think he's talking about. I don't think that's what he's talking about. Those are the two options I got. Are those the mules that are selling for $90,000? No. What mules are selling for $90,000? Well, okay. There was a mule at Croman the Canyon.

So McLean Meekam and his son Hunter are the ones who put on that Chrome in the Canyon sale in Bryce Canyon, Utah. And last year they had a mule sale for $90,000. And what I know about the deal is that there was just some, there were two people that just really wanted that mule. Okay. I mean, the mule was a fantastic mule, but I think it's public knowledge that the mule was sold for way less than that, like a year before at a different sale. or two years before. Okay. So the mule was super gentle, super well trained in the prime of its life.

It was a curly-haired mule. There's some cross of a mule where they get a little curl in their hair, which is unique. It's not unheard of. And just two people got in a bidden war and they had plenty of money. Values in the eye of the beholder. So, but I don't want to take anything away from that mule. The mules that are selling for every mule cell has a different thing.

And it's, yeah, what I've learned is that every mule cell has a different specialty. And I'm a little bit afraid to say what those are because I'm not sure if we say that out loud or not. Yeah. Oh. Do you think we should talk about, speaking of curly hair, should we talk about Clay's hair? Oh. Should we talk about bears' hair? We've been talking about my hair, but your hair is out of control, I would say.

It is a little, I mean, it's been a lot of years since we've seen you that much hair. What do you think I should do, Josh? Just let her go or cut it? I'm a bit torn. You know, I like to keep my hair pretty close cropped, but I also don't have a head of hair like that, you know, so maybe like... I just caught in the crosshairs of indecision. Well, I think on the outside, I would be like, yeah,

you definitely need to get your haircut and be respectable, but maybe on the inside, I think, man, if I had hair like that, I'd probably grow it out. Okay. Really, I just do what Misty says. Yeah, he keeps the hair. Keeps the hair. You want him to keep the hair? There's a day in Clay's life where he's not going to have this.

that beautiful frock of hair. I don't know. I don't know. That dude's got some thick hair. Michael Lanier met me on the street the other day in Prairie Grove. We just randomly were walking down the street in downtown Prairie Grove, Arkansas, and Michael was there. We didn't know.

And I'm pretty sure the first thing he said to me was, you need a haircut. We were right outside the barber shop. You were going to get your haircuts. And see, when my Jedi Master says that, I have to kind of take it into consideration. But Michael would be the guy that would say get a haircut, Clay. At what point, are you like, okay, Clay, that's enough? I don't know. I'll know it when we get there.

I mean, he's got some great hair. I've got a vision for it right now. I think it is given some, you know, nostalgic vibes. This is kind of what Clay's hair looked like, except for where all the gray is. It was frosted, you know, in the 90s when we were dating. So maybe there's some of that there. I'm also going to the Arctic here in a couple months.

well, less than a month at half. And I'll tell you what, a lot of hair does. It keeps you warm. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. We'll just see. We'll see what happens. Clay's hair has historically grown out rather than down.

You know, and so there's a point where if it gets far enough out, it's like, let's do something. But right now, I think, I think I'm pleased with what I see. Wow, we're getting a real window into your marriage here. What more can be said. What more can be said. I'm just going to let my mustache go then. Yeah, you definitely should. Man, how's it felt being in the Toccova's hot seat?

Great. Yeah, man. I mean, you had to nail down the price on your meal. Yep. Yeah. Well, hey, and thanks for coming here. We are going to give you, you're going to get to pick out a new pair of Tachovas. So there's a store here in northwest Arkansas.

and I've got a box. I've got a box of Tocobos right here. But we're going to let you pick out the kind of boots you want. And I had to talk Michael into coming. Yeah. He wasn't going to come. And I was like, come on, man. You got to come.

Bring Willard. We'll get you a pair of Tocovas. And so he was like, you had me at Tocovus. Yeah. I need a new pair of boots. I do. Yeah. What kind are you going to get?

Just a pair of leather boots. Just like, Cowboy. boots. Yeah. Like for just, okay. Yeah. I got some great styles.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Yes. There's your gift certificate right there. There it is. Your Tukova's boots.

And, uh, I think we're going to have to work on that, that handoff of the box a little bit. That needs to look better. Okay. Great. Well,

man, I'm excited about this episode. It's been good. And, uh, don't forget about, the Bear Gris YouTube channel it's not launched yet

it's going to launch in mid-February but we're going to go ahead and start talking about let me go ahead and say one more thing I'm going to open up the next render talking about this if I've seen the little hazy-eyed and distant the last two and a half years it's possible

because I've been working on a book for the last two and a half years behind the scenes in the dark corners of this office. When no one's watching, I've been writing a book. On February 1st, the manuscript for that book is due. The original manuscript. And so me and my team, we will be submitting a basically 90,000-word manuscript of the book, American Bear,

which is still over a year from being able to be purchased. But I just, it's so excited about it. I really am. I might just quit. Life? Not live. Just everything?

I might just retire after the book's out. Bear can take over. Just trade mules. I like it. Yeah. Yeah, he's not going to do that. I'm excited about the book. I've gotten to see a little bit of a window into it

and folks, it's going to be good. It really is. There's never been a, I can say with certainty and not with, with any kind of sense of pride, but there's just not ever been a book written about this, like this. It's about the American black bear, but it's an untold story. Nobody's ever told it like this. So I'm excited. It'll fly off the shelves.

I just know it will. Well, there will come a day when I petition those who listen to Bear Grace to Yeah, exactly. It's like all those years, come help me and buy this book. So start saving up your pennies because in 2027 a year from now. To buy a book. Yeah, yeah, start saving up your pennies. Or if you've got more money than that and want a meal, Josh at themediator.com,

Michael would take 15 grand for the meal, but you can have to come to Arkansas and pick it up and ride it. Serious inquiries only. No traders. Yeah, no traders. We ain't trading you nothing but greenbacks. American greenbacks. Straight up benjamins. Yeah, and no tire kickers.

That's right, because I'm going to be fielding all the tire kickers. That's really awesome. I think I'm going to need a cut. You got you a pair of Kovas and a dealer. All right. Well, thanks, thanks, everybody. Keep the wild places wild. That's where the bears live.

On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

Indications were he should be right there. But he wants to be. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwards. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person.

He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.