Bear Grease - Ep. 473: Backwoods University - Bonus Episode: Anti-poaching Stories

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

In this bonus drop of Backwoods University, we have the opportunity to hear from a man named Joshua Lawes, who spent several years in the wild lands of Africa, working in antipoaching teams. As you can imagine, he has some pretty wild and fascinating tales, along with some insight on how conservation works in Africa and how it dippers for North America. Connect with Lake Pickle and MeatEater Lake Pickle on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and YouTube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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check out firstlight.com slash c4c. This isn't charity. It's responsibility. Welcome to this bonus drop episode of Backwoods University. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. And on today's episode, we're going to take a sharp topic turn and discuss a place and a subject that we have yet to cover on this show, the anti-poaching in the continent of Africa.

Now, I will give you a little bit of foreshadowing. We'll be taking a deeper dive into Africa and its wildlife and its wild places further down the line because I am so fascinated by that continent and all the diverse wildlife that it has in it. And we're just going to treat this bonus episode as kind of our first foray, if you will, into that ever wild place. Today we're going to hear from a man named Joshua Laws who worked directly in anti-poaching for several years. And he has some wild and interesting stories. I think you're going to enjoy it. So let's get into it. Let's start, let's go back. Let's go back to the beginning because I got jumped ahead there. So you, you're from San Diego originally? Yep, one raised in San Diego.

And you spent some time in the military. Is that correct? Yeah. So I did the military after, sorry, I did anti-poaching, then the military, then went back to anti-poaching. So anti-poaching came first. Okay, I had it, I had it in my head that you did military first. All right, so, take me there like how in the like how in the world do you end up like even pursuing that idea of getting into working and anti-poaching so i'd always had a passion for wildlife as a kid you know growing up my hero was steve irwin the crocodile hunter and then less drought from survivor man so i was like how do i how do i combine this and i always had the calling to join the military um but i wanted to do something first because i know once you saw on that dotted line they own you so i was researching and then I found a company in South Africa, an anti-poaching company that takes foreigners to come do their course in patrol.

You're a volunteer, but you do everything that the rangers do and you become a ranger. So I was like, I 100% want to do this. I was going to give it six months to a year before joining the army. So I got a job at my local horse ranch, quit all sports, worked, save up the money for plane tickets, the course, and two months out of high school, I found myself in South Africa. I was the only American. kidding. Yeah. Only American on the course.

And I absolutely loved it. It was like just baptism by fire in the bush, learning how to cook on fire, track, Bushcroft. I loved every second of it. It was amazing time. Yeah. So, I mean, so you're, this is a, is it like a kind of deal where you, you obviously said your time was volunteered to go over there, but by the end you become a ranger?

Is that like you get qualified or something along those lines? Yeah. So it's a six-week course. And then from there, you now know the basics. And then as you patrol, you start to learn more. So I was always a volunteer until I started in Zambia, and then I actually started working full time. Gotcha. Why, why Africa?

Like, why did you originally, like, why did you zone in on Africa? I've always had a calling for wildlife. And it just, the cards just worked out. You know, I thought about maybe, I don't want to backpack Europe. I was thinking maybe going to Asia and doing something there because I've always loved Nepal. And then South Africa came on my radar and I saw an opportunity and I just took it. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. So you show up at this place and you're the only American there, as you said, and baptized by fire. Like, walk me through, like, walk me through like day one out in the African bush when you're like, oh, my gosh, I don't really know anything. I'm out here. Like, what, do you remember what day one was like? Yeah,

so day one, we, it was foreigner-wise, it was me, a Canadian, two guys from the Netherlands, and the rest were South African.

So day one, they shave your head, take everything off of you, give you a uniform, boots, you know, old military rucksack, old chess webbing.

And by the time all the admin's done, it's like four o'clock in the afternoon. So we do a 6K march to camp. Then we, they quickly, put us in camp for the night. First day is kind of just like not admin, but learning kind of where camp is, how we're going to do things for the six weeks. And then like day three was when we were first in the bush and we were doing tracking. They were teaching us how to track. So one instructor

would go out with two of the two of us to lay tracks. Very easy so we could learn how to track. And then we'd eventually track them with the instructor and they'd switch. So I went, I tracked it the second time, and then it was my turn out to lay tracks. So we're walking, walking, and then we get to a point where we were sitting and used the tree in some shade. And to simulate a rifle, they gave us white PVC pipe filled with concrete. So the guys are having a smoke break. One of our instructors, he's sitting there having a cigarette.

And we hear a twig snap, and I turn around. And I think it's some of the guys, because I see white, and it wasn't. It was a bull elephant with tusks. And I just hear that low rumble. Corporal Sep was his name, the instructor. He still got the cigarette in his mouth. And he's just like, weapons not up, but it's just there. He's like, ah, we need to go.

So we just turned around and went. And I was like, that was cool. So that was my first time elephant in the wild. And I was like, that's awesome. Yeah. And then from there, we did, you know, three-day survival course. You know, the guys who are at Rangers from South Africa, You know, we did the first aid and then we did, they taught weapons competency for them.

As volunteers, obviously, we're not allowed to carry firearms. So we still did the training, but, you know, we're not going to carry a weapon. And then it culminated to they took us out to Big Five out into a reserve, which Big Five is Buffalo, Rhino, elephant, leopard, lion, just a reserve with everything in it. And we had to make a Boma. And then for a few days, we were tracking there. And then we have to go back to camp. in a Boma setting. So we'd have to dig trenches and cook on coals, dig trenches to use the

toilets and all of that. Then the culmination of the last final exercise was a follow-up chase, how you would do it in this particular area in South Africa, where you had two rangers who would go and leave tracks, and then we had to find the tracks and then begin a follow-up. We had vehicles for this. So when you're tracking, you know, you then, we'd do what we do what's called leapfrogging. So if you're on the tracks, you get a general direction where the tracks are going, you know, by degrees. So you'd radio in, generally they're going in this direction. So a vehicle would then go all the way around, kind of look on the roads, what we call sport traps, kind of where the tracks are, easy to find soft sand. And if they find it,

well, they've just cut it and they've narrowed the gap. And then we would jump on. So we did this for a few days. Now, we were all excited because it was one of the last things to do. But we've been eating hardly anything. So we were like, let's just get this done. Because as soon as we get it done, soon as we go back to camp and we can eat. So that was our big thing during course we didn't eat a lot. So they just taught us how to live in the bush.

And then once you graduate, when I was working at that particular area, we're volunteering in that particular area. It was 16 days on, four days off, which was amazing. It was 16 days in the bush. You didn't really shower. You ate what you carried with,

and it was an amazing time. Yeah. One distinction, man. So like I'm when you originally just because like the only experience I've had with Africa has been on Safari. And so originally when you were saying tracking, my mind goes to like trackers, tracking game. You're talking about like tracking people because you're tracking poachers, correct? Yeah. Sometimes you track game. Like if you find rhino, you're tracking the rhino. Right. Right. How long? I mean like the whole like tracking people like if you're tracking. a poacher. Like how long did that take to try to kind of start feeling like you had a decent grasp on it? Just the more practice you had. And then when you were, if you got lucky and your team leader was a very good tracker, you would then learn from him. So he might say like, right, track us back to camp from the tracks we came in on. And if you weren't paying attention,

you're new to the area. You don't familiarize yourself. Or if like, for example, you're going to meet up with a team, but you kind of cut their tracks, he'll say, right, don't walk to where you know, track these guys. So you kind of know where they're going and you can just kind of teach yourself. But it just takes practice. I mean, sure, I'll never be as good as the guys who grew up doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and like I said, we're talking different things, but like, I remember the first time I watched like an African tracker, track, you know, track animals. And I was blown away at how good they are at doing that. It just blew my mind.

No, no, it's insane how good they are. They see, like, something that means nothing to us. They can tell exactly what they means. Oh, whatever animal it is shifted its weight this side, or it's insane. It's an art form. Yeah, the first time I was over there, the guy was saying, like, I mean, he was speaking in Afrikaans,

so I couldn't tell him so the pH was relaying to me what he said, but he said that, like, the, it was like a, I think it was a water buck, maybe, but he said that one of them in the herd had a limp. And I was like, what? And he said by looking at the, somehow at the track, he said he could tell. And sure enough, when we got up to him, like, there was one in that group of like four or five that was limping. I have no idea how he distinguished that. Or either that or he was like pulling the wool over my eyes and he had seen them already.

But, man, those guys are pretty incredible. But anyway, man, so you go and you do this instructional course and you're over there for six months and then you come back home and go and do the military. No, so I came back home and then I really wanted to go back. And that's the opportunity with that one nonprofit. They offered, do you want to go and help? I said, absolutely, I want to get back. Different province and that's when I met Will.

And then after that time there, I didn't go home right away. I then got an opportunity to then go back to the same area, but with a different reserve. And so I then started working there on and off from 2017 till 2019. So that was when I really got to hone kind of my bushcroft and my anti-poaching craft and how it works as just the boots on the ground ranger because it was, you know, multiple weeks in the bush you go out for a bit, come back in. And we wouldn't just patrol in that reserve.

We'd go to other hot zones as well in patrol. So what, like, on one of an average day of like patrol, you're out there, like you're going and you say you go into the bush for a bit. Like, like, what are you doing? Are you going there? Like, is it a, where there cases where there were poachers out there and you're having to catch them? Or is it more of like a preventive thing? Like, what's a day look like? So if you're just, there's multiple ways to do it. So let's say you've been assigned to an area and you're in the bush. You build your BOMA where your BOMA's already set up, which is the Thorne Thicket where you're sleeping at night. You know, from there, you might get told to go check an area for a few hours at first light.

You go check the area, then you might go back out in the afternoon. Lost light. If it's moon phase and it's starting to get, you know, full moons coming, you'll start to shift more towards nighttime. If, for example, you're at the main HQ, you might go out at a completely different time. But you're going, you know, from HQ, they might drop you off and have you walk back, or they might have you check a fence on the roads, walking, or with the vehicle. It totally depends on what that threat assessment is in that area. Yeah. What is so like people, what's a more common one, like people just like, like meat poaching or depending if there's rhinos around?

Like, what would you run into? Yeah. If there's meat poaching, it's typically they're setting snares. They'll set their snare line and come back for it. There I was in South Africa. I didn't deal with the dog's flushing game. That was more Zambia. And then the rhino poaching side, almost all of the rhino poaching incidents I dealt with were reactive.

And they got intel from the inside. And they know exactly where the rhino are. They go in, shoot it, chop the horn. and they're out. So on big massive reserves, yes, it's difficult to find them, but if they get the shot off, you have time to catch them because they still have to get out the reserve. If it's a smaller reserve, it's quick to get in, get out. Because when they're looking for the rhino, you know, they're looking and they're trying to find the tracks. Sometimes they'll find the tracks. They'll then spend the whole day with the rhino, wait to lost light, shoot it. And by the time they've shot it,

they know we're coming because we've heard it. And then they'll try to get out as fast as they can. but when they have the horn, they're not playing around, they come straight out. So it's quick. But when they've shot, it's reactive, you know? If they don't know you're on them and they're just looking, they're kind of walking. They'll still anti-track, but when they know you're on them, it's very difficult to track them. Right. Well, first thing, before I go back and I got some question about that, did you, how, did you ever have instances where that happened?

Like, you're out there working and you hear a shot? and then you got to move. Yeah. You got to go and it's quick. More often, not though, for me, sometimes it was like the neighboring farm or the neighboring reserve was, it was shooting or hunting or doing something or culling. You still react. You know, you do the first thing I always did is I drew a line in the sand with my foot

and immediately put my compass down and then you get, you know, kind of I would write down on a piece of paper, was it high caliber, low caliber, what was the estimated distance, what's my location, what's the degrees on the compass it is, and then I go. So then at HQ, for example, they can go, right, he's here. It's roughly here. We can send a team. So. Yeah. Yeah. Have any instances like that where it was a rhino and it wasn't like somebody else doing some other activity? Do you ever have like somebody shoot a rhino? Yeah. No, I've had it once. It was, I wasn't I was in the area but I was way further away north and they shot it they shot it in the south

I didn't know about it I didn't hear it until like I got we told on the radio the next day hey we've got two carcasses we need to go do the crime scene meet us there and they told us where it was so we went there and we had to do you have to cut it open find the bullet hopefully there's a thumbprint or you can trace that bullet to a different rhino poaching crime as well. At that point, it's reactive.

Basically, by the time the shot's gone off, you got a rhino down, you've lost. And at that point, you're just trying to catch the guys to some south situation. Yeah. Best way to stop them was always intel and being reactive, knowing where they come in and sitting on those high points on those big reserves and, you know, using the binos to find them come in and apprehend. As far as like being reactive, like you said, like how, how is that how prolific of a problem? Like I mean, I've heard, you know, like, I know enough to know that like rhino poaching in South Africa is a problem.

But like for your situation specifically, were you all having to catch people? Like how often were you catching folks that you knew were in there trying to poach? So it totally depended on the situation. like 2016 and 2017, the area I was in got hit extremely hard. And those reserves I was volunteering in in the beginning. And then the reserve I finally stayed in South Africa. We had a very good anti-poaching unit. And it was a smaller reserve.

We knew where all of our rhino were. So we concentrated our rangers there. So we only lost one when I was there. Otherwise, guys would go to other resorts. because they knew like, hey, these guys are here. They're switched on. Let's go find easier pickings. Yeah.

What are these? I mean, like how sophisticated are these poachers? Like I heard you talk about like sometimes they get inside information and stuff like that. Are these pretty sophisticated teams of people going and doing this? Or is it or not so much? Yeah. I mean, the syndicates are very. You know, you might have instances where if they know someone works on a reserve,

whether you're a general worker, a mechanic, a guide, or a ranger, you know, they might go to the Shabin at night that you drink at on your off in the local village and just say, hey, I'll give you three times your salary just to tell me where the rhino are or, you know, what's the AP you doing? Just for information because it's so lucrative. I mean, I checked rhino horn on the black market per ounce is worth more than gold. Yeah You know And you get in those big massive areas like you know

Kruger National Park and the reserves that border Kruger Those are huge areas so sometimes if an area's been poached out The you know the scouts and the rangers are not going to waste their time there Because the rhino aren't there if they've got a serious poaching problem So I've seen it where the guys just use that to walk through freely And they'll set up camping sometimes that's where I had my first visual, these are rhino poachers

and then I spent the whole day chasing them. Really? Yeah. Listen. And you're there for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph.

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Head to firstlight.com. That's F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. That's got to be, man. I mean, I'm assuming these guys are armed. I mean, obviously, if they're shooting rhinos, you know, so I mean, like, that's got a, I mean, it feels like it could get pretty sketchy at some points. Yeah, but they don't really care about us. Once they have the horn, they're good to go. They just want to get out of there as fast as possible.

So my first ever visual, like, these are rhino poachers, okay, it's on, was in this one area. We had just spent eight days there. We were supposed to be there for 10, but my team leader had to go on off. So we did the rotation two days early. So I was the scout. He was the team leader. And we'd get water from the river. We would, you know, use water, sand to rub, to clean ourselves, eating.

We had to anti-track because these guys were in the area as well. We spent eight days on the high point. Nothing was quiet, you know. So, okay. All right. So the night before, they're like, hey, we're going to come pick you up tomorrow morning. Go to the pickup point, which was this big tree. And we'll see you there in the afternoon.

Okay, cool. So it was December 14th, 15th, 2017, somewhere there. So I'm walking. It's 5 o'clock in the morning, but it's already like, it's already like in the 90s. And I can see the tree. It's close. And I'm like, okay, all I'm thinking about is hot chow, a hot shower, a proper bed. And then I just hear Impala do a warning call.

And then I just instinctively see them and they're running this way. So I looked to where they're running from. And on the ridge was two guys, one with a backpack in one. headslung. Couldn't see the rifle, but I saw the sling, and I remember it was clear as day. One had Converse on, and the other had those dad white new balance shoes. And I'm like, oh, so I like, look at my team leader. I'm like, we're both like, okay, if you get on the radio and they're like, guys, we're coming to pick you up, like, no, no, no, no, we've got poachers. They're like, okay, cool. Apprehend or follow up. We're coming with the helicopter and the fixed wing. Okay, cool.

Now, in our haste, we just unclipped our bags and went with just what we could carry. We didn't bring water, nothing. We were too quick. So these guys have no idea we're tracking them. So they're just walking how they normally walk. So we're following very easily. And then we come up over a ridge. And as we start to come down the ridge into kind of a valley, here comes a helicopter.

And then the fixed swing. Now the fixed swing is just going to do patterns to find them. And the helicopter has another team. So we get on the radio and a helicopter, like the nose is 12 o'clock, the tail's six, either side is three and nine. Get on the radio, call him in. And under our hats, we've stitched in Hunter Orange to flip over so they can see us from above, which only works if they're like right above you.

So we were given this white cloth, by this big. And that was four. You're supposed to wrap it around? So other units, if you're on a follow-up and it's like a multi-unit work, they know you're not a poacher. So we didn't use it for that. It's great like this as a wind gauge. So the helicopter comes in, we give them a general direction of where the spore's going. So they go and leapfrog, but with a helicopter, land, and now they're doing grids.

But these guys know what's going on. So they're now hunker down, anti-tracking, and slowly trying to come out because they know we're onto them. We've got other units from the east and the west, but we're the ones that are still on the tracks. So it gets to about 10 o'clock and it's hot. I've had no water to drink for five hours. We're both finished. Like, I stopped sweating long ago. My hand, my thing is coffee.

So we're like, all right, we can't find these guys. We know they're hunkered down somewhere. So we kind of do a big loop back to our old camp because the new team coming in was going to use that for a few days. And we had left some water there for them from the river. So we down that. Then we bring in the bloodhound in the canine unit, which we were still learning. So that was our first mistake. We should have brought the canine in first before another unit.

The bloodhound is he's on track. He's sniffing, but we can tell he's kind of following us and he's getting confused and now it's hot. So we're like, okay. So my manager at the time, he knew this area well. So he was like, hey, I want to check one spot where I know they've come in and out before. So they're like quickly prep an LZ. We like break branches. The helicopter comes in, lands.

We jump in. We land on this dry river bed and this thick bank on either side. Back to there. So we're like, okay. But there had been a flood a while ago. So it's like perfect berm with like fallen trees and twigs. So we're like, if these guys are here, like this is going to be an issue. So we're trying to move as fast as we can, but as safely as possible, like clearing it.

And eventually we get up out of the riverbed. and their tracks have gone they're gone they're across the river and they're away so we're like okay so they basically just did a loop you know but that taught me from that on always carry double the water you want you know i always carried in the beginning two leaders i now carry four and then i carry a extra one which was just a hand to whoever's on the tracks that guy's sucking he's tired you know hand him some water because someone did that to me and i was like oh thank gosh so that was my first like these are poachers and they're clever so we think they saw us at some point because a couple days later so we done the changeover I'm back at main HQ doing like not light duties but

I'm not in the bush on that main camp doing some patrols anyways the guys radio in hey we've got poachers okay cool so we now we're we're prepping to go there so by the time we get there it's later morning. It was like four o'clock in the morning. So we need to go and now meet up with our guys. But we had a radio situation. So the radios were off to save battery because we have to carry all this stuff in Wade Radio Times. Anyways, so we go walk up to camp and like try to call our guys, which was very sketchy. So we're like, they come out. It's us. Okay. So we make a plan. Our two African trackers, most experienced ones, we're going to go track where they lost, confirmed the spool. And then what we were going to do is sort on high points in glass.

So eventually what had happened the night before was they were busy filling up water from the river because we had drunk at all. We left them a little bit. And as they're drinking, you know, you got to, you got to, there's hippos cross. Guys might cross. You've got to be careful. So one guy's busy checking and he tells the guy and he sees them crossing. Now they're wearing our uniform, which was just OD green. You can buy it anywhere from a store.

they either seen us or had it and decided to put it on. So they see them and like, all right, cool, let's go and follow up. So they follow them, they find the tracks. It's starting to get dark and they lose the tracks. So they do with 360, get back to their tracks, and they see where they had walked. These guys had walked on top of. So both people over each other. So the team leader is like, we're going back to camp for the night.

Next morning we'll look for these guys because there's lines around. So the guys would also, they would go hunker down for the night as well. So we did another follow-up. As soon as a helicopter came in again, these guys know what's going on, and they'll head out. So what we need to be on the tracks always because what's happened before is they'd go out of the area. Helicopters chasing looking here, if no one's tracking, they'll come in from a different side and go somewhere else. So you need to confirm they've gone out. And like, hey, they've gone into this reserve.

Now that reserve's team will follow up and take care of it. So it's very much a cat and mouse game. Yeah. I guess it's not all that surprising. Like you said, you said they're clever folks. I mean, that's to be doing what they're doing, I suppose they have to be. Otherwise, they wouldn't make it that long in poaching animals. I suppose they've got to learn some tricks to get pretty slick out there,

which makes your job all the more interesting. Yeah. I mean, the best Rangers were former poachers because they know all the tricks of the trade. Yeah, yeah. Well, then like, and I mean, this is no news to you, but like I've talked to several folks in like Safari companies, some of their game trackers are former poachers, you know, so it's like they're good at it. I did it in Zambia, I told them in the village, bring your rifle, I'll give you a job and it worked a few times. Guys came in. They handed over their rifle to the game scouts. I gave them a job. So, and I gave patrols with them, which was extremely interesting seeing guys who had poached for years, now teaching me their croft, which was quite cool. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever learn, like, was there a pretty, like, established, like, list of, like, let me try to think of a better way to word what I'm asking. Like, out of the swath of former poachers that you worked with.

with. Did all of them relatively have the same skill set? Like, I'm sure some of them had, like, unique things that they did, but did they all kind of have, like, certain tricks of the trade that was like, these are what poachers do? Yeah. Now, you've got, like, obviously, rhino poachers are very different to meat poachers, but, like, the meat poachers, I did a lot more work with in Zambia. You get to talk to the guys, and they get to trust you when you go and patrol with them, and you're spending days out in the bush with them. So eventually, you'd ask like, all right, so what would you poach? And they'd eventually tell you, and you'd ask, all right, okay, how would you poach a leopard?

And they'd tell you, and shoot a puku. I'd hang it in a tree. I'd hide. I'd wait there forever. This thing would eventually come. It might take days. I'd shoot it. You know, so they tell you these things, and you learn the tricks of the trade.

And like, I've had it before we were on patrol. And, like, we might come across tracks, but we knew the area, and we knew they were they're passing through or they were coming out or they were operating in our area. And you can talk about the guy's body language. If the guys get energized and they're like excited, I know, okay, this is fresh. So then they know it's all. Now it's time to go and track. And I let them do that because they're better than me.

Sure. Sure. That's interesting, man. So what, man, how much, I mean, these guys that are like doing this rhino poaching. Like, like, what is the, like, if you were to catch one. of them. Like, if you already catch a couple rhino poachers, what, like, what penalty or do they stand to face? It depends with what country the poaching is in and what the laws are. I know South Africa, I think,'s cracked down quite a bit. Well, unless they've shot a rhino,

they haven't committed a crime in terms of rhino poaching. You know, you can get them for trespassing, illegal of a firearm, things like that. But unless they've shot the rhino and they've got a horn in their hand, you can't charge them with it. Sure. Yeah. What if they, if you catch them and they've, they've shot a rhino, what, like, how much trouble can they get in? Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. I never dealt with that. I just like, once they were caught and gone, that was the courts and then that was the lawyer's issue to deal with. Yeah, I guess what I'm asking is I'm trying to weigh like risk versus reward. Like how, like, I'm trying, like, this obviously had to have been somewhat lucrative or like a way for these guys to make a living. Otherwise,

I mean, these are some like dangerous, sketchy and like very illegal situations these people are putting themselves into. So it had to be a pretty high reward. Oh, yeah, the rhino poaching guys, they did very well for themselves. There's a small town in Mozambique called Massengira. Before the rhino poaching kicked off in 2009, it was just a small little village. You go there when the rhino poaching was like peak peak in 2016-17 when I was there. Stories I heard, people are brand new houses, brand new vehicles, you know, whoever had the nicest house was the best poacher in that village. They obviously went from Mosin Beacon to Kruger National Park. And then the stuff I dealt with was syndicates in the area, you know, coming in.

That's insane. So like people were like popping off in this town like all of a sudden like big new nice house and stuff and I guess they just weren't able to able to catch them more or less. Yeah, I mean, these guys are clever. I mean, Mozambique had a long civil war in the 90s that ended, and those guys, some of them became very good rhino poachers because they're very good of bushcraft and tracking. And, you know, some of the guys we tracked, we figured they were better than us

what we were doing because they did it for a lot longer or not what we were doing, which was protecting wildlife. Yeah, that is wild, man. They always ran the risk of obviously getting eaten by lions, you know, getting shot. If they came into Kruger Park, they could get shot by the government, Sandpark Rangers. So, you know, they ran a risk. But, you know, you got to respect them the skill they had. Yeah.

That is fascinating, man. Okay. Let's deviate. Like, so you go, I mean, you're in Africa, and I know we were talking about specific instances. Like, how, how. How long were you over there that time before you came back home and went into the military? So I did basically 2016 to January 2019. I was in South Africa on and off.

I'd go back, go for a few months, come home, go back to the old job, working at the horse ranch to make some money. Go back because I was a volunteer. I wasn't making money. I was just doing this because I absolutely loved it. And then I remember I was on a patrol and I was like, I want to keep doing this. but I need money and I need to kind of make a plan here to kind of muster myself, make a better resume for myself. So I was like, right, let me join the Army now.

So I came home, joined, and then I actually got stationed up in Alaska with the airborne unit there in Anchorage for three years. Three years. Did you, I mean, were you, did you, was, did you always plan on getting back to Africa after? It sounds like you were. Yeah. At that point, yeah. Definitely. That was the plan.

Yeah. So, and talk me through, I mean, I'm trying to get like all the details of your story just because I find it interesting. So you're in the military for three years. You get out. Like, what was your game plan from there? So the loss. See, I got out July, May 31st was my date I got out with Leave 2020. End of January of 22, I had surgery.

I had partially torn a ligament in my ankle on. a jump. It was just a routine surgery, but I had to physio that. So I was already making calls then and like I know I'm getting out. Let me be proactive. And one of my mentor from South Africa, he ended up working in Zambia. And he said, hey, there might be an opportunity for you here. So he gave me the contact details. We sent a few emails. We had a few phone calls. And he's like, if you're interested, come for an interview in Zambia. So I went, got out. yeah i think the 31st 31st of may 22 i got out and i want to say end of june i was there for the interview

yeah and then you didn't waste any time no i was i was committed so then started working it took a while to get all the paperwork sorted i started working in march early march of 2003 and then it did anti-poaching till about towards the end of 2024. So I did that for 18 months. How did that evolve or turn into what you're doing now? So I absolutely loved anti-poaching. It's an amazing job.

It's a hard job, but it's great. Sounds like it. Dude, it sounds like a hard job. You're talking about, you know, getting water from the river, dodging hippos and crocs and not eating much and finger swelling up from dehydration. Sounds like a hard job. But it sounds like you liked it.

I absolutely loved it. And a lot of guys have asked me once the difference with anti-poaching and the army. The biggest difference is the army you have support. Anti-poaching, you don't. It's you and the guys you're with. And that's it. You know, you got to make your own food. You've got to patrol.

There's no backup like in the military. There's no going back to the barracks. One thing that stuck with me is I did a patrol with some of my scouts here in Zambia. and we were going through some swampy areas, but it was the dry season. So it was kind of burnt down fields, but then the swamps were still wet. So we're wearing gumboots. It's hot. We did about maybe 20, 22Ks that morning.

I'd already drunk in all my water. And we've got like 10 kilometers to get back to the vehicle. The vehicle can't come to us. No one can drive it but me. No one knows how to drive it but me. I remember walking. Same thing. I stopped sweating.

you know, fingers swollen during the walk. I was like, you, you can't quit. There is no quitting because no one, no one's going to come and get you. You need to walk. So at the time I got to the car, I was finished. I was just like, remember I started the car and I was just like, the AC didn't work. I didn't care. I just was like, even the guys were like, oh, why now? You pushed yourself. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the biggest thing. There's no, There's no calling in for help. There's no, you know, help is far far away. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, how, okay, so how does that, how do you, how do you turn what you're doing in anti-poaching to what you're doing now? Yeah. So, you know, loved it, but, you know, living in the bush 24-7, you know, living on a river, living next to the river, living in a tent is great. But as I was getting older, I was like, you know, I'd eventually like to have a family, do other things, but I still want to, I still love this passion. How can I keep, how can I fund my passion still?

I didn't have a big. I was being in the bush. I was like, right. I'm an American. People from back home might listen to me from my story. Maybe I could connect the dots and bring people here to Africa. So that was the plan. I had like made a few calls to reserves and lodges I'd worked around in my experience. And they were like, yeah, we're very interested. And then people back home are like, if you start a company, like, I'll definitely come on a safari. So I just went, okay, you know, and then started the company, which was a huge learning curve, going from living in a tent on the bush to now learning to run a company. Yeah. So tell me or say on here so that folks can hear what's the name of your company?

One-Niner expeditions. Where'd the name come from? Bible verse Joshua 1-9. So it Yeah During the later years When I was in anti-poaching It gave me a lot of comfort

So I remember I was thinking of names for my company I was sitting on the banks of the Kufui River Mosquitoes everywhere So I've got redlands on I'm riding, writing And I can't think of anything Like I'm putting safari

I'm putting I can't think of anything And then I just clicked So I just went one-niner expeditions There you go Yeah So I was like this is perfect Yeah

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That's f-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. This might be a difficult question to ask because if someone asked me the same question, I'd probably have a hard time to answer it, but I'm curious nonetheless. What about Africa? I mean, you grew up, I mean, if you were from San Diego, like, California is a beautiful state. You know, like, we have wildlife and wild places here in America.

What, like, what drew you to Africa specifically? For me, in the beginning, it was the freedom of just the bush. Like, there it is, go, explore. There's no, my worries were what I'm, when I get back to camp, I need to cook. I need to, did I bring firewood? Did I bring enough water? you know, did I dig a dip, do I need to re-dig a hole to go to the restroom before bed? Like, and just the freedom of being out there in no worries.

It was absolutely amazing. And then, you know, going to Africa, you either stays with you and you love it and it gets in your skin. That's why I got it tattooed here. Or you'd never want to go back. And it's just one of those things for me. I can't. Like, I went home. I went to San Diego in March and I was there for like, you know, I was there for two

weeks and my family's like, yeah, you're ready to go back, aren't you? In the last like three days I was there, I was like, no, no, no, no, I'm still good to see you guys. Like, I'm happy, like, no, no, no, no, you need to go back. So, yeah, it's just absolutely love it here. Yeah. Man, and like I said, I've not spent a fraction of the time in the African continent that you have, but I'll give you, like, briefly kind of what happened to me. I got the opportunity to go on a hunting safari back in 2023. And it was like I wasn't seeking out the opportunity. I had, I had friends that had gone and told me how incredible it was. And I just honestly didn't think that much about it. I was like, I'll do it one of these days. Like it was something I wanted to do, but it wasn't like high on the

priority list. Well, this, this opportunity arrives. And it's just like the timing of it worked out. My wife would be able to go with me. And I was like, yeah, let's do it. And my genuine mindset is, I was like, I'll go to Africa and I'll check the box. And I'll go, I did it. You know, we went on a hunting safari in Africa and I saw it and that'll be that. We were two or three days into that trip and my wife and I were talking about how we were going to get back there, like immediately. And I can't. And that's what, that's why I say I understand how it would kind of be difficult to kind of put your finger on it because folks will ask me, like folks that I, you know, grew up with or have hunted with a ton around here.

And I still love the United States. I still, and I hunt around here all the time. But they're like, why do you talk about Africa so much? I'm like, because I can't get it out of my head. Like, I can't really explain to you why. I just can't, I can't get it out of my head. It's something about that landscape and how wild it feels over there. I know as part of it, that's not all of it.

But yeah, the way you put it is correct. It, like, if you go there and it gets, it works, it's, way into your bloodstream. There's no getting rid of it. Like I'm, I'm constantly thinking about, like I, as we, as you and I are talking right now, I leave for a quasulu Natal in nine days. And nine days can't come quick enough. Like, that's all I can think about is getting over there. So I understand. I understand the, the attraction of Africa. I just am curious, sometimes I'm curious with myself. I'm like, why is the pool so strong? I don't, I don't know. I just know that it is. It's one of those things where if people get it, they get it. You know, like I did a

expo in Southern California in March, and I was like speaking to people. And some people are like, I don't want to go to Africa or one day. And then, you know, people who have been there like, yes, talk to me. They like, they get it. And, you know, it was you could see in their eyes. They've been there and they've seen it. Yeah. To talk to me at One-Niner Expeditions. What talk, give me like a overview. Like, what does this company do? What does your company, one-nine or expeditions? What do they do?

The main, main thing is I take clients to places I have been myself or are now associated with. So one of our big, or one of our luxury lodges in South Africa, I used to patrol there. You know, and I've taken clients there. And I know the place better than some of the guides. You know, there's been a time or two where the guide. he doesn't know a specific area we're going to, and I'm like, that word,

because I walked it, you know, I didn't drive it. And all, so the senior scouts, when they see me, well, I'm on the back of the game viewer,

so they just think it's guests. And then I'll be like, a wave and they'll go, wow, and we'll jump out, hugs. We haven't seen each other a while. We've had each other's backs back in the day.

So, and, you know, the tracker and then the driver, like, I was like, yeah, I told you,

I wasn't lying. Like, you know, I used patrol here. These are my guys. And then we also, it's all about conservation. So when clients go to that place, for example, we then take them to the Ranger HQ. They can get a talk from the Rangers there about how they do anti-poaching in that specific area.

Because that reserve, it's fenced on all sides and on an open system. And then I also work with the first all-female anti-poaching unit, the Black Mombas. So I take clients to go meet them and they see how they operate and how they have a different style. because they're unarmed and they're in a open system. So the reserve they worked on has other reserves around them, all no fences and it's connected to Kruger. So it's all about learning conservation, you know,

how the communities are involved. And I tell people the realities of anti-poaching, you know, just to get a scout on the ground is extremely expensive. You've got to pay for his training or if you get someone who's come from training and certified, you've got to pay him for those qualifications. You've got to feed him. you've got to give him a uniform. If he's armed, you have to give him a rifle.

You know, if he's from someone in-house you want to train, you've got to send him to get his competency. You've got to have a vehicle. You've got to get the fuel to drop him off. So before that scout, you've hired, puts his boot on the ground and does the first patrol with you. You've spent thousands of dollars on him just to patrol. And a lot of the times that money comes from landowners or private donors or organizations. So how do you subsidize that? keep wildlife, sustainable management. Tourism is a big part of that. So I show people this. So they

don't just come to Africa and go, okay, cool. I saw the Big Five, saw some rhino. We went, I saw the Victoria Falls in Zambia. I did a sunset cruise like a camd or a state luxury. They really get to see what it means from someone on the ground like me. It was extremely passionate. And education, if you can educate someone and they can go home and tell someone, you know, one person was motivated by what I told them. They go and then tell 10, people, they tell 10, you know, you spread the word. Yeah. Yeah. So how do like, so you bring, like you take like a, you have like a group of clients that are, they're coming in and it's like their first time in Africa. What is there like, what's a normal reaction? Because when they're,

when they're learning all this for the first time, because again, coming from even, um, demote, I'm assuming, to me if I'm wrong, most of like your clients, like, they're familiar with, like, hunting. I mean, I know you're not a hunting safari, but they're familiar with, like, the hunting culture in America. How, like, how do they perceive? And when you hear someone got caught for some sort of poaching in America, it is a typically a very different thing than poaching as it takes place in Africa. So, like, how, how do your clients kind of absorb? of all this the first time they're learning of all this activity. So I've noticed it very quickly.

Like on our first game drive or our first time in the bush, everything is amazing. We're stopping for Impala. We're stopping for baboons. We're stopping for birds. By the end of their safari, they're like, ah, it's an Impala. It's a, you know, it's a baboon. I don't care. I want to see the big stuff.

And that switch comes very quickly, especially if they see a lot of wildlife. and they've been immersed in it properly. And, you know, I get asked around the fire all the time, talk to me about, you know, sustainable conservation, and I'll explain it to them, you know, if we're in an area where, you know, there's a village and, you know, they're harvesting their crops. And I heard of elephants come in and they eat all the crops that night.

They're not going to want the wildlife there. That's feeding them. That's, you know, their subsistence farmers. Yeah. Or there's no infrastructure there. and a source of income is going to poach, where if you put a lodge in, if you bring international clients through this lodge, now I'm simplifying things here, you've got chefs, you've got trackers, you've got drivers, you've got maids, you've got people in that lodge, and you're

a hiring room from the local community, but then it amplifies, right, well, now there's a few other lodges, bring yourself up the poaching so there's more wildlife. So you then used your funds or however you want to do it to then put in the anti-poaching, bring the wildlife up, and that's sustainable use. And you see it click with people like, ah, okay, I get it now. I wouldn't have got that had I not come and seen it myself. Yeah, I would imagine that's probably a pretty fun part of your job watching a lot of these people experience that for the first time.

Oh, yeah. No, I love it. You know, because at first, I didn't realize I obviously did it the first time. I went 10 years ago, baboon, Impala, just the general game, general wildlife.

So the first time it happened with a client, I was like, okay, and now it's a reward. I love seeing the shift of, ah,

it's just a baboon, let's keep going. You know, like, I get it now. So, yeah. You'll,

sometimes they ask a tracker about an Impala or something, and the tracker might joke, yeah, it's great meat. The initial shock. and they go, yeah, obviously we eat them. So it's very interesting to see that.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you, I mean, like, I know you're not, I know, like, the, like, your outfit isn't taking people hunting, but do you, like, work cooperatively with any, like, or any of the properties that you work on? Does there any hunting or culling that takes place on there? I mean, everyone culls. You have to, especially in a fenced-in area.

And culling is a good thing. It means your management practices are working, but I don't specifically work in areas with hunting now. What do you think, and this is another one of those big questions, but you can take it whatever direction you want to take it. How is like, well, I'm phrase it, like, let me do this one first. Other than like the obvious, like we've been talking a lot about poaching, what do you think the biggest threat towards like wildlife and wildlife habitat is to Africa. And I know that's a big question. And it may be something as simple as poaching, but are there other threats? I know because you, again, looking at if you hear like, if you just go off press releases over here, you're always hearing all kinds of stuff going on

in Africa. You'll hear about poaching cases. You'll hear about elephant population problems. You'll hear about habitat destruction. Like what's, you're on the ground over there. What do you see? Like, is it, are there big threats to wildlife and wildlife habitat in Africa? And are there not? If there is, what are they? If you asked me in the first few years of me being here, I would have said poaching, poaching, poaching. But looking at it now, I mean, kind of like everywhere in the world, human encroachment to people encroaching on these areas. I would say also mismanagement and not putting the people on the ground who deal with these animals on a daily basis involved.

so they see them as an asset, not an hindrance, you know, through ethical tourism, which is the way I do it, you know? See it? No, we're not going to go put snares. Like, yes, we understand those elephants came through and ate all of your crop. We're very upset.

If we go through and work with the right organizations, one, they'll probably reimburse you, or there's ways to manage it. So I think that would be the biggest is not, helping the people on the ground and just looking over them and trying to like, you know, look from above and just say, this is how I want to do it from, you know, around the world. And, you know, humanity is getting bigger. Wild places are getting smaller and smaller, unfortunately. Yeah. That's the way I always try to stay, like, I guess, like, I try to keep it front of mind because

I heard it was a, it was a pH that operates out of Tanzania, but they said, they said, people, they said, people all over the, all over the globe, but particularly in North America and Europe, love signing petitions about a country they've, most of them have never stepped foot in. And I was like, they make a good point. It's like, I myself, it's like, I have opinions on wildlife things going on in Africa. I like, but I've been over there. one time. You know, it's not like I'm living over there. And so I'm always curious to like, what's the people that are actually living there every day? What are they putting up with? And, you know, what, like, what's really going on? I'm just always curious about that. Yeah, I mean, a big way I can put it is, obviously, you know, California, the state flag has the grizzly bear on it. Right. Someone from, you know, Africa, Asia, Australia is now telling people from California, right, we're going to dump a bunch of bears in L.A. And you need to now just deal with it.

No. You know, you need to find a sustainable way to do these things. I'm oversimplifying it, but you kind of get what I'm saying. I follow. Yeah. So how the people on the ground who deal with these things, how they see fit is how it should be done. Because at the end of the day, it is their country, their resource, their heritage.

It's how they should want to do it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. what is like like like some of the the folks that I talk to over there and I know I'm asking all these hunting questions and I apologize but like how bit like a lot of the folks I talk to they always talk about like this pressure they get from all these anti-hunting organizations and again do you see any of that because again like we get like over here you'll get some anti-hunting pressure and stuff but it doesn't it seems to pretty pale in comparison to

the stuff that Africa gets from elephants and lions, like the whole Seas of the Lion thing. Like, do you, like, how heavy is that pressure? I haven't seen it really here. I mean, I haven't seen it a whole lot, but you do get, I guess a big one would be like, you know, some of the trackers or the people we work with, they eat game meat. It's part of their culture. So having clients here from. people on the ground say it's part of our culture we eat it like it's a sustainable resource it's

part of our heritage for hundreds of years then it kind of clicks okay so you know that's i'm oversimplifying it again but you kind of get what i'm saying but in terms of the anti-hunting stuff i haven't really seen it myself i've just been more involved in the conservation on the ground is this organization or is this what's if your agenda isn't trying to actually help on the ground I don't have time to hear. I've got things to do. Sure. Yeah. Because it was, man, it was fascinating to me, man. Like the, where I was at, every, every tracker, every person, every person who worked at that outfit, from the Skinner to the tracker to the people that worked in, the lodge, everything. Like, all of them, I don't, they told us, like, game meat is all they ate. Like, they didn't eat anything else as far as meat goes. Like, all they ate was.

the wild game. And most of it was like stuff that was brought in from those hunters. But I was like, man, if you were to take this away, that would be a huge shift in how they live their lives. Yeah, I mean, in the very rural communities, they're not going to slaughter a cow every so often to eat. You know, they subsidize with fish or game meat. You know, their cows are their currency, their resource. They're not just going to, you know, kill one to eat. Yeah. Topic turn, going back to One-Niner expeditions, what do you take these folks to do? I was looking around in some of the stuff that you offer. Like, I think you have one coming up and like you'll think I've seen one coming up in like Zambia or stuff like that. Like walk me through like if I were to book a trip with you, like what are we going to go do? Like I know we're going out into the bush, but like what are we going to? going to see, what are we going to go do? So I sit down with all my clients. I mean, I've got general stuff on my website, like pre-done packages, but I customize everything for my client.

If they're like, no, from the second I land on continent until the second I leave, I want you to handle everything, I'm like, got it. I can handle, you know, land at the airport, I'm there. My private transfer company that I've used and I know well, we use. We go stay at, you know, if we're overnighting in Johannesburg, we stay at my friend's lodge. They all know me. Then if we're going to Zambia, we're staying at places I know. The guide's there, the trackers there, I all know. You know, in like Livingston, for example.

South Africa, the lodge I used to work at. You'll see everyone knows me there again. It puts everyone at ease. I remember one client, we were checking into a lodge and I just, you know, I just greeted the guy in the local dialect and he smiled. And then we started chatting. And at the end of the trip, she was like, you put me at such ease because of that. And all I did was say hi in the local dialect. So just small things like that.

So I tailor everything. If someone's like, hey, I want to do a helicopter ride over the Victoria Falls or up over the, while on the game reserve, we can organize that. You know, they want to do a snare sweep with an anti-poaching unit. We, you know, we can do that within reason. So I customize everything. And I can help people with their expectations. as well. That would be doing a, man, I would be, I would be all over doing a snare sweep with the

anti-poaching team. I think they'd be stupid cool. I love it because it's one of those things where if you find a snare, you've directly saved an animal, you know, like, because a snare gets set and it's left, you know, the animal gets into it. It's going to suffer and die. So you've just, you've directly done wildlife conservation. And that instant you've taken it down, you know. Well, the biggest thing that I can take away from this is, just more people should go to Africa. 100%. And everyone has this preconception of it's like super, super expensive and once in a lifetime.

Yeah, you can do those, but there's also, you can customize anything to fit your budget, you know? And then a day, if you just want to come and see wildlife and you don't care about a five-course meal, more power to you, you want to go camping. That's also amazing. It's just about getting out there and experiencing these things. How can people find you? You can find us on website, 1-9er Expeditions.com, Instagram, Facebook, at 1-9er Expeditions. We have a YouTube channel where we have all of our highlight videos of safaris

and a couple documentaries. And I've also done an interview with an owner of a game launch. And we discussed how safaris work from that side of the house. So people can find us there. Cool. Cool, man. Well, man, it was fantastic getting to talk to you. I have a really interesting story.

and good on you for figuring out a way to stay in Africa. That's, I'm slightly jealous that you're just there all the time. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me on. It was amazing. And that's going to wrap us up for today. I hope you all enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. And I hope you enjoyed kind of this first step into Africa and its wild places and its wildlife. Because like I said, we're going to learn more about that place in the near future.

Thank you for listening to Backwoods University. well as bear grease in this country life. It means a whole whole lot to all of us over here. And if you like this episode, share it with a friend and be sure to stick around because there's a whole lot more on the way. We'll see you next time. Hunting demands preparation, persistence, and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear first light.

This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear. Built to perform, built to last, whether it's their industry leading merino wool, keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot, or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements. First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer, designed by hunters, four hunters, with a deep commitment to conservation and land access,

no shortcuts, no excuses, just gear you can count on. Head to firstlight.com. That's F-I-R-S-T-L-E dot com.