Bear Grease - Ep. 477: Render - The Mailbox, The Bulldozer, and The Emancipation Proclamation

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

As Civil War Summer continues, host Clay Newcomb along with Dr. Misty Newcomb and Josh "Landbridge" Spielmaker are joined by guests former history teacher Ben Lagrone and host of The End of History podcast J.B. Shreve as they swap stories about Osage orange trees, neighborhood mailbox projects, , bulldozers, and the simple satisfaction of moving dirt. The group then turns their attention to the Emancipation Proclamation, Abraham Lincoln's leadership, family Civil War connections, and the lasting impact of America's defining conflict. Thank you to our sponsor, Tecovas. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Brought to you by Toccova's boots. I'm a cowboy bootman, and I've been wearing Tocobas for years. They're the most comfortable boot I've ever put on. Good boots for good times.

Welcome to the Bear Greece Render. This is, we're deep into the Bear Greece Civil War summer, as it's been deemed by Misty, which is a long time coming for me. Been learning a lot about the Civil War, and it's been really powerful. We have two distinguished guests, quite distinguished. You're welcome, America. I'm here. I'm here. We'll go counterclockwise.

We have Dr. Misty Nucom. welcome. Thank you. Great to see you. When you say counterclockwise, least distinguished? Well, I usually like to... Is it like opposite order?

I try to introduce the mystery guest last. So Dr. Misty Newcomb, Dr. Josh Lambridge spillmaker. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. And then we have a guy who's been here before, Ben LaGrone. Who is... He's only got a master's degree. Master Ben LaGrohn.

Yeah, I like master. Now, Ben, you have some history street cred, though. I am. I am, you know, you call this Civil War Summer, right? So I'm such a nerd that I remember as a kid every time July hit and it was getting hot, thinking it's really hot, but it could be worse. I could be wearing a wool uniform in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania fighting for my life. Wow, that is.

Because that's, we just finished out. Since I can remember. Wow. So that's my frame of reference to make myself feel better about hot summers At least I'm not fighting in the Civil War In the middle of summer So Gettysburg was in July

Yeah, July 1st, 3rd, 63. Wow. Yeah. It's a really specific, like, mental coping device. Yeah. But that's good. I think it says some things about you, Ben. It does.

Well, that's what I meant. You got some bona fides when it comes to history. Yeah. And what I was actually talking about was that you used to teach history. Yeah, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant. Yeah, yeah. I taught history, and so I love some war. Yes. Well, great to have you, Ben LaGron. And then a very distinguished guest, I was going to say extinguished, but he is not extinguished.

Not at all. He is on fire. Somebody get the fire extinguisher, because he is on fire. This is Jeff Shreve, known as J.B. Shreve to many. And Jeff is my brother-in-law.

What? Disclosure. Jeff is Misty's brother. It's out there, America. It's out there. And Jeff has a... I had no idea. Very, a wonderful history.

You got a couple of podcasts. Tell me about your podcast. Well, it's basically all combined now. J.B. Shreve.com. It's all right there. It's targeted towards believers, Christians, but we look at current events. We look at history. Just try to...

The tagline is, faith, intelligent faith-based perspectives so believers can make sense of the world they live in. But you do a lot of history stuff Oh yeah, we're neck deep. We're neck deep in a look at American history

going back 250 years, a 250-year story. Yes. So it's... And you're a real history buff. Big time. Like what got us going on you being here today is we were, I told you about a couple episodes

we had done. Yeah. And you've very well read on the Civil War. I remember when the Civil War summer was just going to be three episodes. You've been listening that long? You remember when it was just three episodes? Well, it was planned to be three episodes.

Episode one, it's like, we're going to do three of these maybe. And now it's like we're just going and going. It's like, yeah, we're going to do this. It's going to keep going. Well, Jeff, you're in the Tocovas hot seat. Oh, yeah. As you can tell by the boots on your chair. And both you and Ben are going to get a gift card from Tukovas that you could get

a cool shirt like I've got. Or I have. Or you could buy your wife a pair of boots like Misty's got. We're really proud of our Tukovas. You could buy me a pair of Cove's. You know, there's a place where you like don't, I mean, in the field that we're in, sometimes you know, like promoting stuff is like not the fun stuff that people come for. But like, I'm pumped that Tachovas sponsors this podcast.

I'm pumped. Yeah. Yeah. So. You lured me in with Civil War, but you had me with Tachovas. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and look what they sent us today.

Yeah. These are branding irons for boots. That's a meat eater logo. Yep. So we'll take a propane torch and heat it up. And brand each of you are. Yeah. Like yellow stone.

I'm not wearing pants. Yeah. We'll brand you right on the couch. Ben's wearing shorts. So you can just to clarify. For those not watching the video. It is wearing The only choice that you guys have in this is which brand do you want?

The Meteeter brand or the Bear Grease brand? Or both. Yeah, left right, left right. There you go. Let me see. Yeah, isn't that cool? Where would you put that on? It was pretty slick.

You can put it anywhere. You can put it on the heel. I have my Tikova's boots branded with my initials, like right on the heel right there. Or you could put it up on the shank of them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

So we could brand yours, Misty. Okay. Yeah, that would be great. Nice. I also wanted just heading off a couple of things at the pass right at the top. This is the Osage Orne Orange Acre and Grunner. Very cool. So this is Phelps grunting deer call.

It's July, man. It's time to start thinking about deer hunting. Yep. It really is. I wish Bear was here because Bear is passionate about the Osage Orange. Yeah, so what made me think of it was when we first made the Acre and Grunner, we used white oak. So the first run was white oak. And then we made them acrylic, which we still do, which is like an indestructible plastic, essentially, that it is like machined out of this piece of acrylic.

But this is my favorite one. It's Osage Orange with a little burnt finish on it. And this is an inhale. This is an inhale, exhale. dough bleat buck grunt call. And it's a deer hunter's call. That's what I call it. Because when I'm deer hunting,

I want to be able to call at a doe deer and have her come in. And in the early season, they really respond to bleats. You can call in a buck during the rut with a bleat. A lot of guys just carry a grunt call. I like to have a dough bleat and a buck grunt. And this acre and grunner is a way to go.

It's awesome. Is that, O. Sage, Orange, is that a tree that would be common? across the U.S.? Yeah, in many places, in kind of the Southeast? The upper south and the Midwest. There's probably Osege all across the south too, but it's also in the Midwest. Okay.

So, yeah. I was just wondering if people in the northwest would know what we were talking about when we said in Osege Orange. O'Sage Orange has had a multi-century marketing campaign. Okay. They've been heavily marketed first by the, the Native Americans, then by... Billboards? Then by others.

Instagram. But the Osage Orange, it actually started with... First, Native Americans were making bows out of it. But then the French came and called it Bodark. Boy's Day Arc. I don't know how to say it. Boadark means... In French.

Wood of the bow. Oh. Bow wood. I see. Yeah, because they came here and they saw Native Americans making and Bose out of Osage Orange. And it's one of the most impressive woods on the continent. In terms of density, strength.

I planted, Jeff, listen to this. This is some brother-in-law stuff that we need to talk about. I redid my mailbox, which, I mean, it might be something you might consider, too. I would happily let you redo my mailbox. Hey, if we did it in Osage Orange, I'd get excited about it. I cut two Osage Orange posts. I actually made a mailbox for the whole neighborhood. I actually think we should kind of go back and tell a little bit of the backstory on this.

Well, I don't even know. Is there much of a backstory? Well, we got a notice from our mail person. The neighborhood did that our roads mailbox was too rough, and they would stop delivering like in 30 days if we didn't change it. Wow. No one took action. It was an exercise of collective inaction.

Our mailboxes, it's like a country road where all the mailboxes are the people that live on the road or on this, you know, this lengthy platform, elevated platform. And I mean, the short version of the story is who came to the rescue of this hauler? And who was very proud of that? This guy. And I went and cut two big, oh, sage, orange staves. And when I put them in the ground, I knew that they would outlive me. I mean, they will. They'll stay in the ground for 50 to 70 years before they rot.

So it's an actual tree that you planted for your mailbox? I don't know. No, he just cut it. He just cut up. Like a fence post. Like a fence post and then built to this platform. You should look at it on the way out. It's a work of art.

And he was proud of it. He sent me pictures and our neighbors were proud of it. Several of them wrote and said, thank you. They were very, very polite. Like none of us were like, oh, they're not going to stop delivering our mail. I mean, that's kind of how we all thought. But they did, in fact, stop delivering our mail.

So Clay went out there, and he was super proud of it. And every time someone talks about it to me, they're like, hey, tell Clay thanks. We saw him out there working on the thing. And I was like, oh, no, you should call him yourself. You should call him yourself. He would appreciate it. People were driving by, slowing down.

Pause the traffic jam. Man, that looks good. Pause the traffic jam. All the old men around were coming over and just like, man, what are you doing? That old sage orange stay, boy, that'll be there a long time. It kind of was the talk of the family chat for a while, you know. I'm still proud of it. It's been a long time ago.

Mainly Clay. You know, he was the main person sending that out there. It was like six months ago. Jeff's really noticed it every time he's come by. Well, what we could do is take out my mailbox staves and make a custom run of Baker and Grunners. We'll do that in 50 to 70 years. Yeah, that's what I was saying. Good like getting nose out of the ground.

Yeah. So what are you been doing today, Clay? Man, I have, I forgot what an intoxicant it was. He is going to be, he's going to be unbearable for the next week. I actually wrote a song about it one time. But yeah, I've been on a, I've been on a Kamatsu 51 for about six hours, five hours today. How long do you have it for?

How many hours do you get to the spend on it? He's got 40 hours he's going to be spending. I've texted with all the kids. This is like apex life experience for Clay Newcomb to get to be on a bulldozer. and I've just kind of resigned myself. He's doing hard work, good work that I want done, but you will be unbearable for about a week. Just the thrill, the adrenaline rush,

the high of being on a bulldozer and feeling that much power all day long. Have you ever done it, Misty? Have you ever done it? No, but there is talk of me getting to push some buttons. It will change your life. It will change my life. Operating it. There is a high that comes with operating head.

heavy equipment. Yeah. Yeah, it is a, you feel so powerful. When I say I'm bearable, I'm not judging. Like, I'm willing to take it. There's a connotation of the word unbearable. Well, I get you. I hear what you're saying. I'm just saying, I just know, like, this is going to put Clay in a position. I hope he can bear the weight of the burden that's on him right now. We'll see, we'll see where the humility versus the. Of the adrenaline. Yeah. What I'm not good at, I'm good at pushing stuff over real good. I'm not great at keeping it smooth because, you know, you push over a big tree. I'm not pushing over big trees.

I'm pushing over medium-sized locust, osage, orange, and cedar that have grown up. It's a pretty interesting study on the successionary plants of this region. But if you just take a, if your front yard, Jeff, that you mow with a lawnmower, if you didn't mow it for a hundred years, just let it go. Right. The first stage of succession would be locusts, o'estage orange, cedar, eastern red cedar, sassafras, persimmon, like these. How long would it take to get those? You would get those within two or three years, the sprouts would pop up.

We're working on it. And then if you let that go for 30 years, you'd. you'd have what I have over here. When was the last time that was clear, do you think? My neighbor, who's very closely watching what I'm doing, has told me that 30 years ago, it was a Bermuda pasture just like his. Really? His is really beautiful.

And he said it looked just like my place. Really? That's pretty interesting. Just how quickly the natural world takes over something. Yeah. You know, so there's, the power is, is what do you take? What do you leave? leave.

Yeah. Because there is some nice walnut that is from that secondary growth. Keep that. Yeah. So I'm keeping that. But we are, well, bear Nukam is, bear's out of town today. But if you haven't checked, looked at his YouTube channel, you should. He's got some good videos.

It's wildly entertaining. When he's making that bow, I know this is a couple months ago, but was that Osage Orange? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I turn on the videos a lot of times when I just sit down and eat lunch or something,

and I'm just captivated. Yeah. A lot of my friends with young kids, their kids are watching them. And that's like, you know, just entertainment for young people. I think that's pretty good entertainment. I met this little boy in the chiropractor. I think I may have mentioned. I met him in the chiropractor the other day.

And he's world's biggest bearerese fan. I think he's five, six years old, maybe six years. years old and this name is Gus and I saw them again the other day and they'd just been eaten up that Barry's content. Oh really? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Nice. Nice. Well, we are, we could continue to small talk. We could we could start, you know, as they say. Big talk. Yeah. Start. Yeah.

Can you clarify what they say? we are here to talk about the American Civil War we uh so the first episode that we did talked about the causes of the Civil War second episode was about Lincoln and Robert E. Lee these two players that that played roles in Civil War third one was about why men fought and it basically we

highlighted the Cherokees that fought Is that the one where he surprised you with your family tree? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That was cool. The way he surprised him?

Yeah. Jeff, do you have any, when I started this, it's pretty intimidating to do an episode on the Civil War. It's just so big. Any commentary on the, sometimes Misty's like, Clay, the way that you do stuff is just completely backwards. So wives are four. They can't be humble. And to me, it just makes perfect sense the way that we've done this. Anyway, the progression of the series, like you're a podcaster, you're a writer.

Boy, I'm enjoying it. I mean, I've been enjoying the way you get into it. I like to debate, you know, as I listen to them while I run. And, like, I had to make sure this, I'm just telling Josh, I wasn't sure if this was video or podcast, because I just do everything audio. Right. And so I listen to them while I'm running, and I'll think about what they're saying. It's like, well, maybe this, maybe that.

but I've been enjoying just the progression of it all so far. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said you had some thoughts on Thomas Jefferson. On Thomas Jefferson. Oh, boy, do I got thoughts on Thomas Jefferson. Because the question that came up in the first episode was, this is the guy that wrote the Declaration of Independence,

and we went back all the way to the Declaration and how it kind of made a caveat for slavery, but yet it talked about the equality of all men, and then Thomas Jefferson had owned slaves. Yeah. So Jefferson and Ben, you back me up and make me look smart and correct everything that I'm doing wrong here, but do it in a nice way. But Jefferson, he would say things. Like, he was all about image in my mind.

When I look at Jefferson, the more I read about him, the less I like him. Because when you dig down into his life, it's like, ah, this guy says these nice words, and then you look behind the scenes, and it's like just a lot of the not nice way is hypocrisy. Just it doesn't line up. His actions do not line up with what he says. And one of those things I've learned is there's two, if you take politics and you divide them in half,

there's realist and idealist, right? Two different schools of thought. The idealist, and you would put like Jefferson in that camp to me, Rousseau, who out of France, you know, with the Enlightenment, who he was heavily involved. influenced by, you would also go on down the line further in history, you'd put someone like Marx, Karl Marx, the founder of communism, or one of the founders of communism, guys like that, where they're all about painting this high vision, and they don't expect you to necessarily

hit it all. All right? They don't, like the idea of hypocrisy, it's not really the point. It's about putting this big thing out there, and, you know, we should strive for it. And they're about more about tearing things down than they are about building things up. So they're tearing down power structures. People would say like Marxist theory comes out of there. Then on the other side, you've got the realist, and that would be folks like John Adams,

with the founding father's generation, Edmund Burke out of the British Parliamentary School of Thought. Guys who you can't be all pie in the sky, you've got to have realistic applications, and they do that. And so there's two different frames of thought. And so when it comes to those political theories, and so when I look at Jefferson, I would fall more along the lines of a realist. It's like you've got to do what you say. Wait, he was. He wasn't. He was not.

Okay. And in his mind, what I see when I read his writings, what he said and then what he actually did, it's kind of like, that was okay in his mind. I mean, Rousseau wasn't thinking I've got to get all this accomplished. Now, he was thinking I've got to tear down the power structures that would prevent these good things from happening. And that's the way he would put it out there. And kind of let someone else do it.

Yeah. You gave me an example. You said Carl Mark's like lived with his mom or something. Yeah, he was like a drunk. he's a drunk he was not a very good human being at all his he basically had to live off of his family's dollar just to get all these writings out and then there's all sorts of chaos that resulted from the stuff that he did write but he's putting something out there that had good pieces to it you know we've seen a lot of bad stuff from it but he's basically saying hey you got to treat

the workers more fairly and that was what he contributed to the equation would you agree with this ben yeah yeah and i and i'm not not studied Jefferson as in depth as people like Washington and some other family fathers. But when I look at those guys, they recognized that they were born into a system that was very big and intimidating, even if they didn't agree with certain aspects of it. And so it's, and I thought the episode did a good job of painting that picture for some of those guys. I think, I can't remember who, maybe it was JD that brought up like

coal-balt mining. Right. I mean, if you really want to dig into the atrocities that go into not just your cell phone, but getting electric cars and more lithium out, you will ask the question, what am I doing to stop this?

I'm literally propagating and I'm going up buying, I'm actually contributing to it almost daily. Lithium batteries are a big part of my life like yours and anyone's. Well, speak for yourself. So, yeah, I think those guys,

like Jeff said, their priority, it's more about priority versus beliefs. And those guys were politicians. And they had priorities that superseded whatever moral beliefs that they had. And no one can go back and know every deep inner thought that they had about it all. But there is enough evidence that there was a lot of things that they did. They weren't necessarily comfortable with. Just like I'm not super comfortable with all the lithium in our world that's causing me. I have a smartphone.

I made a choice, yeah. Or Bear's big example. I think it was last week's, maybe the week before, the environmental stuff. That's a perfect example. It's like that's a perfect example. It's like that fit perfectly because I do all sorts of stuff

100 years from now and probably think, what a horrible man. I think it's a plastic spoon. Yeah. And there'll be pictures of you. Yeah. Yeah. I have a thing that I say is that they will look back at

pictures of our kids' birthday parties and we'll see us using single-use plastic utensils. And they will go, how was my grandfather was such, he was so nice to his family. Reckless. He was, you know, good with this and that,

but how could he have done it? I mean, that's quite different than human bondage. Yeah, it's very important to say that. Very important to say that, yeah. But it's fascinating to me how we can look back in history and see the flaws inside of people. Yeah. and try to reconcile it.

And then, yeah, here we are today using lithium batteries in our phones. Listen. And you're there. For heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph. In 2026, FIFA World Cup.

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and become a meaningful part of our next public land access campaign. Yeah, and like George Washington, like he knew slavery was wrong. And like when he died, he wanted to free all of his slaves. That was the plan. And yet at the same time, when a lot of his slaves ran away during the Revolutionary War, They ran and fought for the British because the British made this deal.

If you'll come fight for us, we're going to free all the slaves. He went looking for them for years after the battle was won. When the terms of surrender were done, he says, hey, also, I want to get some of these slaves back that have gone and fought for you. And the British said, we can't do that. And it's some fascinating stories. It's like, you know this is wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

I just read about that. There is a difference. There is a difference. Interesting. Ben, you said that you learned some stuff about your family. family's Civil War history. Yeah, and growing up in my family, you're told this when you're young, but I called my mom earlier to brush up on some details.

But it's really fascinating stuff, and it ties into the complexity. I felt like you touched on in the series about why did people fight on an individual level, not just why politically did the war happen. So my mother's side of the family has a long history over here, the Talbets, and they moved to Massachusetts in like the mid-1600s. And there's all this history with the Talbets of Massachusetts. I mean, you can go up to Massachusetts. There's books about some of my ancestors.

I have an ancestor buried very close to Alexandria and Hamilton. So I got all this great history, direct history. Well, in the 1830s... I can't wait to see what they did. It's for another podcast. They must have done something bad. Yeah. Well...

I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the 1830s, there was one family that fell on hard times. And in 1836, the government acquired Chickasaw land in Mississippi and branded it, talking about marketing here with, we were talking about earlier with the Osage. They branded it as like the last cotton frontier. Go get some cheap land, whether you want it for speculating or plant yourself. and this family grabbed on some of that chickasaw land

and moved down here with all these ties back in Massachusetts. And it was one particular individual. And it was unsure what he actually did with it because we don't have records of him starting a big plantation and buying slaves. He actually owned a drugstore in Memphis. But he had that land and his son ended up,

actually multiple sons ended up fighting in the Civil War. And so before I get to the action, because there's a lot of action, it's always been intriguing to us as a family to study these guys and think, like, you literally, all of your kin, all of your ties are up in Massachusetts. And with, you know, you moved down here,

and within not that long a time, you're literally fighting against them. And it's just always been intriguing to us. But I think especially for his kids, they would have grown up in Mississippi. So they wouldn't have, like, felt that history as strong as he would have. So anyway, a couple of the sons fought in Antietam.

One of them died. One of them lived. And that is my direct ancestor. Wow, the one that lives. And it gets crazier. So his name was Alan. Alan Talbot. Yeah, he fought in Antietam.

And then, and I don't remember all the specifics, but basically, like, his division of the Mississippian eventually got tied up with Robert A. Lee. and just like the third Arkansas was in with fought with Lee as well and so he was in a lot of campaigns under Lee and drove an ambulance at Gettysburg and lived so he literally lived through Antietam lived through Gettysburg and he didn't have his kids after the civil war and he had his kids pretty late so he probably was in maybe his late 20s early 30s when the war started and then after the war. You know, he survived. He then got married, had like 15 kids. And so if he would have died in the war, I wouldn't be here. And he's my great, great-grandfather. And that's pretty

rare. I'm 38, 20-26. That's rare to, it's only my great-great-grandfather. It's only two greats? Yeah. Okay. That is. Because he was older when he had him. Kids, yeah, right. Exactly. And so, super interesting to think about just like him living. do that. Yeah. So this was your your mother's great-grandfather.

Exactly. No, she wouldn't have known him, though. No, but her dad talked about him. Yeah, because it would have been his grandfather. Yeah.

Pretty wild. Okay. Live through Antietam. And Gettysburg. And Gettysburg. That's wild. And his brother was killed in Antietam. My parents were actually,

he was killed in the cornfields, and my parents got to kind of go to the area that he most likely laid at. Wow. Wow. That is interesting. Yeah. Do we have any relatives who fought this of war? Yes.

No clay does. Well, we have a... So here's the story I heard. Oh, man, I don't really want to tell this on the podcast. Well, don't do it, because it's always going to be embarrassing. Well, it is going to be embarrassing. Well, it is going to be embarrassing. We had a female spy.

Oh, wow. A female spy. And she, for the Confederates. And she came and... It's one of those things. where it is literally written in our genealogy, a story about it. And in a book about your genie. Yeah, with your maiden name.

And I heard about it when I was in elementary school and we got the genealogy book, shared it with my teacher. We were doing a study on Civil War. And it was like probably one of the most interesting studies we ever did in elementary social studies because it was a project based and that wasn't popular back then. So we did this project-based thing where we like, went to all the wars and there was a big board up on the wall and you had moved. And when she, there was an allowance in the system for someone to be a spy or in like,

there were two teams. I mean, education in the 80s and 90s is pretty crazy. Unhinged. It was unhinged. I mean, it really was. And so this was a decent person teaching our class. But there were two teams. It was the unions and the Confederate.

And I was on the union team, but I was, unbeknownst to them, actually a spy. And so I would give her my work, but wouldn't turn it in in the class until our team would lose. And that was like a functional... Wait a minute. Did they tell you to do this? Or did you just... No, she did it. You were just like...

There was allowance in the system for... Like, you know, it was like a kit that she brought. So when it all was settled, you were a spy and they eventually knew it. Yeah. And I brought my little genealogy book, and we all learned... interesting lesson about the Civil War. But yeah, so we had a female spy in there. And that in my lifetime was looked on as like an honorable, interesting thing.

Well, I mean, are you going to tell the story that was in the book? Yeah, so the story in the, well, and it always makes me a little bit nervous because sometimes I feel like people in my family were given to elastic retelling. I think the way that you would handle this is say As the story was told to me We don't know how truth is She took some papers Some documents from the union

And they followed her back to her house And she sat on them She had you know She was hiding in them She heard the story yeah Yeah and she sat on it and who knows if it's true And they wanted, they looked all over the house, they tore it up, you know, they knew that she had the papers. And they asked her to, they said it could only be underneath you, because they've torn up everything else.

And she said, a southern gentleman would never ask me to stand, but I'll stand if you want me to. And they said, never mind. And they left. And that's exactly where they were. She was sitting on them. And so, you know, as it was told to me, but I always have questions about some of the retelling of our family history. I think it would be pretty interesting

to poll people about the stories in their family about the Civil War. I actually have a story about the Civil War that I haven't even mentioned on this episode because I just feel like everybody has this same story. Like I just, I'm not, I don't really know how true it is. Okay.

And that is that we were, on my grandmother's side, her maiden name was severe, and they were from Tennessee, that we were, direct descendants of Stonewall Jackson. I don't know that everyone has that story. I didn't know that I was in terms of Stonewall Jackson.

My grandmother gave us books on Stonewall Jackson and was like, read this. And she could tell us how you got back there. But I didn't, it's like, I don't know. Our, not in our blood lineage, but in our lineage, we're, apparently the, the Daniel Boone is our ancestor. You know, he actually didn't fight in the Civil War. I know. I'm just saying, I just think that's kind of a better, that's kind of a pretty, that's a pretty cool.

But the thing is, it's, the reason it's interesting is that like everybody has these, yeah, these stories of their connection. And they're probably somewhat true. I mean, when you get this far away from something, the, the genealogy of it, I mean, Stonewall Jackson probably has thousands of descendants, you know. What's interesting to do. me, I'm listening, we're reading a reading slash listening to Grant's biography on tape right now. On tape?

Cassette tape or eight tracks. Were you born in 1982? You guys? Okay. So I'm listening to it, the Audible book. And it strikes me how connected people were. Yeah. Like how many of these people knew each other and his, you know, his dad.

lived with John Brown. And I mean, like, there's just all these crazy stories. The country was a lot smaller. That's what I was going to say. It seems like when you're reading about the Civil War, you learn about the Civil War, it seems like everything is smaller. Like the opening battle takes place that this guy's in his pasture, the guy, the bull run, takes place in his pasture.

Appomatics, the courthouse, it's in his kitchen where the surrender is done. And it's like the same guy. It's like, how can that be possible? Yeah. The coincidence is there. Long Street is at Grant's wedding. Yeah. I mean, it's just like nonstop.

And there's always, they're just always kind of running into each other. And as I'm listening to it, we just would not have those kinds of connections. Well, the country would have been, I want to say, Josh, can you look up how many people were in America in 1865? I want to say it was around, it was under 50 million, I think, maybe even 30 million is what I want to say. But like, that's a small country. I mean, that sounds like a lot of people. but when you start having multi-generations that have interacted with each other, it's a smaller group of people. Approximately 35 million.

Wow. 35 million. So now we have 300. So we're 10 times as big now. How many people are in, live in New York City? Today? Uh-huh. Metro area?

What did it? It's more than 12. 15. So while we're looking up that stat. Um, this episode, when I think about the Civil War, the Emancipation Proclamation is like a big, a big thing. I wanted to learn about it. I really didn't know anything about it. 20 million in the metro area currently.

20 million. So they were, you know. Yeah, everybody in New York knows each other. I'm not saying everybody knows each other, but that is that it's almost the size of one of our biggest cities. You know, it's two thirds of size. Bulldozers make him a little snarky, I think. He's been a little bit snippy with me today, and I think it's the bulldozer. I think it's the power.

This is going to, we're going to have to be careful, Clay. Listen, when I'm out on that machine, it's just me, the machine, and the trees. They're going down. Well, he better not treat me that way. No, no, I treat with a great respect. The Emancipation Proclamation. Oh, that's right.

Yes, yes, that's what we're talking about. So, Dr. Brooks Blevins was my guest. and he's one of my favorite historians, just a great guy, super knowledgeable. He's really the historian of the Ozarks. He is the guy in the Ozarks, but he knows the Civil War really well. He was a fun guest.

He'll make an appearance, I think, in the next episode as well. But what stood out to you guys in the Emancipation Proclamation, number four of the Bear Grie Civil War summer? What stood out to you? I think for me it's, you know, I have a theatrical version of history. And so you think about these big documents in terms of Lincoln, you know, wanting to free the slaves. And then you get in there and it's like, no, Lincoln had, I mean, and I'm sure he did. Like, you know, Brooks says that and he made, he, he migrated towards the abolition side.

But really, he's trying to hold together a lot of different things, keeping the Europeans from joining forces with the Southerners. He's also navigating this law that gives them jurisdiction as a, I mean, we're in the weeds of public policy when we're saying, I have no right to pass a law that says that people in the North can't have slaves. But I can say that people who are actually fighting, you know, this or that it has succeeded, they can. Yeah, and I can treat him as a, what was it, an war contraband? Yeah. I can't remember. Yeah.

But it was, I mean, like, he really had a brilliant mind to be able to actually use. Master politician. He really was. And to be able to pull together all those different, all those different pieces. But it isn't theatrical at all. It's not, it's not anything like the, and it's, it's incredible. I mean, it's a huge step, and it makes the war about slavery. But to me, it was interesting to hear just all the different backdrop of,

of all the decisions that were made. And it's actually, you're walking through this complex little minefield, trying to operate within the bounds of the law, trying to get the right people on your side, trying to, and in the process, making everybody mad. Yeah.

In the process, no one is happy with this. The abolitionists weren't happy with it. But it actually did move the war in a very specific direction that ultimately allows for freedom. But it took some, weaving. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. You know, it's not always, it, I think when I first heard all this, I was like, oh, Lincoln may not have been that personally interested in the freedom of the slaves. You know, it appears these political things were there. But there are things in life, too, where multiple things are true at the same time. Yeah. And so, you know, he, it appeared that it was a political move to win the war.

but it also felt like in the way that he spoke, which he was a politician, that it really became very deeply meaningful to him. And it just so happened, hey, this is also going to keep the Europeans out. It's going to give us more soldiers and it's going to remove the labor force from the South. And I happen to really want to do this from a Cuban level.

Right. No shade on Lincoln at all in that statement. Just recognizing this isn't quite the well that's the shade that I would have thought at first. The Disney version of events. Yeah, it's a lot more complex. It's super complex. And to me, it also, it actually shows his, his brilliance as a, as a lawmaker, as a policy.

It's what I like about Lincoln. Like Lincoln, as far as, like, American heroes and stuff like that, I've got a picture of Lincoln hanging in my office. Like, I liked Lincoln. He wasn't a perfect man. You know, the episode you did on Lincoln, it's like, I agree with all that. He had a lot of nasty statements in there. And that's what politicians have when they're trying to win office. They've got a lot of nasty things they say and do when you put it against the backdrop of history as it progresses.

But he was on a journey. And that's what I like about him is by the time you get to 1863, 1864, the emancipation comes out. He is starting to see things. He's still a politician, but he's seeing himself in a play of deeper history going on. He's seeing his place even before God. Like he becomes a lot more religious by the end of his life where he's seeing, I have a part to play here, not just in this nation, but before God. And he starts using more, more biblical language and describing more things. And in a weird way, I'm almost glad he was assassinated because I would hate to have seen what would have come after and to see the hero become who he probably would have become during the reconstruction period.

Wow, I never thought about that. But to me, he's a fascinating character because he was trying to do the right thing by the end of it all. Man, Jeff, that's an interesting way to think about it. I've almost not looked forward to getting to the end of this because I know Lincoln's going to die. You know, and just how. Spoiler alert, folks. Yeah, I hope this isn't a surprise for people. I'm like Nate Bargettsey who's like, man, when I watch history movies, I'm as surprised as anyone.

No, just the human tragedy of this guy that did this thing and became such a great leader and then dies like a week after Appomatics. I think it was within a week. It was like five days? Yeah, five or six days. April, let me think. Yeah, it was not long. I didn't realize that until the summer. I knew it was soon after.

I did not realize it was a week after. Yeah. But. I think five days after that. surrender down in Georgia. Yeah. Except still to come after Appomattox. But he died at the highest point in his life.

Yeah. Up until that point. And that's the way we remember him. Right. And I mean, I don't know what good that does him necessarily. Well, it created a lot of equity in the, from the political perspective for the, radical Republicans at the time to do a lot of stuff with reconstruction. Maybe they went too far, too fast, but because they were able to, kind of like when

JFK died, there was a lot of stuff. people were able to do from his agenda. It's like, hey, you can't oppose a dead man, you know. And so they were able to get things accomplished, and they did that with Lincoln at the time. There's two movies, if y'all have seen them. They're really good. The one, what's the one about the 13th Amendment? Is that called Lincoln?

It is. Yeah. Have you seen that movie? Part of it. Yeah, it's pretty slow moving. It is. It is. It is.

I think you'll like it more after you know the history. If you've read the history, I think you like it better. And you'll see the emancipation as like the next step. in his journey. Do you think that was accurate, though? Because the part that I watched, I was kind of like, that's not what J.D. said.

Not what Brooks Plevin said. Well, I haven't seen it a long time, but another movie that's really good is, what's it called, the conspirator? The one about... Conspiracy. The public defendant of the conspirators. Right, Sarat and all of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good movie that really captures... the, just the environment after that assassination. And National Treasure 2. Have Lincoln in it?

It's like a trilogy, really. Lincoln, conspiracy and National Treasure 2. But anyway, you know, the Civil War, we always try to like package it up, you know,

but when you really know history, it's like the chaos kicks in another gear. Yeah. And bloodshed continues. Yeah. And people forget about that. And yeah, the reconstruction was a wild time.

And a lot of it was due to the nature by which, not just the war ended, but Lincoln getting assassinated. And it would be very interesting to think about what it would have been like with him around. It might have been also chaotic. The extreme radical Republicans might have butchered him because he was so tactical and didn't move things fast. When he died, like Jeff's saying, they really took the... opportunity to like, all right, we're going to change things now. And it had this whole other backlash. Not saying that that was bad, but it's just the reality that there was a lot of chaos after the Civil War. Yeah. Well, we're getting into Reconstruction. Yeah. Totally know the topic.

Maybe we can have the reconstruction fall. One of my favorite things about history is finding something I didn't know. And like with the Civil War, the more you read, the more you discover, I saw this totally wrong. And that's what I like about Lincoln. That's what I like about the Emancipation Proclamation, about McClellan and Teetam, stuff like that. It's like, oh, wow, I had no idea. This was actually what was going on because I was raised to believe this one thing, not with an agenda in mind necessarily. But it's like, this is new stuff. And that's what makes history fun to me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I read, and this is a decade-old statistic, 16,000 books have been written about the, there's been more than one book a day written about the Civil War since it happened. Yeah. Well, an average of... Did they say that? Did they say that? Did they say that? Okay. I might have got my number wrong, but more than one book a day. It was my podcast. It was your podcast. Thanks for listening.

I did listen. I did listen. I'm listening to a number one. a lot right now. That number sounded high to me, though, but that was what I found is that there had been 60,000 books written about the American Civil War. And there's photos. Because if the first one, we've got photographs, here's what I'm waiting for. This is kind of like

what I'm excited about with all the chaos going on with AI and everything like that. This is the one thing I'm looking forward to where AI can generate. At some point it's going to happen where it can generate images for me to put on a pair of goggles, and I can see almost like stepping back in time because there's so much data

that's available with all this history books, the photos, where I could put on a pair of goggles or whatever, and I could watch Antietam happen, like literally be right there because it's got all the data. So Jeff Bezos or whoever's out there, go make that happen. So you're thinking you can just plug in a whole book. And, well, more than a book. Make me a movie.

But actual images. Yeah, like I want to step back in time and look in because we've got the images. You can make this happen. Can you imagine the amount of electricity that would take Jeff? Yeah, and then we go back to the coal. Yeah, yeah. Then you just feel dirty. And my grandkids looking my dad was an evil.

My granddad was an evil man using this cobalt. I looked to see if I had any civil war history and it's not. We're all just Germans, which have no dark stains on their history. That's right. The whole turned out well. You're lucky. One thing that was interesting, Clay, is whenever you had said that even your brothers were less interested in you in the same household. And that was really interesting to me, just like,

what makes a person so deeply want to connect with that? Because you're right, it's everywhere, especially in the South. And it makes me think of this time my wife and girls, we were in a hotel in Denver and just swimming in the pool and like hanging out and there was this lady there. And somehow we got talking, she figured out we're from the South and so on. And all of a sudden she got real quiet.

And she was like, I'm a direct descendant of Jefferson Day. Davis. And you're like, shh. Why did you tell me that? I'm a spy. I haven't known you for five minutes. She felt connected to you because you're from the South.

And she wanted to share that, but was kind of ashamed of it, but proud of it. And that's like, I'm like, the awkwardness that you just initiated, like I actually get because I've grown up in the South. Listen.

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On the road to the July 19th final. 2026 FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on IHeard Radio. Well, it's here, folks. The 2026 Meat Eater Auction House of Oddities is back and open for bids now. This year's auction features eyebrow-raising outdoor gear donated by the meat eater crew, employees, and friends of the brand, including Steve's dad's shitty old truck full of badass hunting gear, the Honda Outboard Motor from DOS Boat Season 3, Clay Newcomb's Alaskan Wet Suit Bear Hide, fly fishing memorabilia from the personal collection of Lefty Cray and more. The auction house kicks off July 8 and runs for two weeks with 100% of proceeds going to our land access initial.

which to date has helped fund new public land acquisitions, such as the recent 200-acre Tuckertown acquisition in North Carolina, the 328-acre Wildcat Bend acquisition in Montana, and the 215-acre Shilohpond project in Maine. Visit the meat eater.com slash auction to place your bids now, get your hands on some meat eater history, and become a meaningful part of our next public land access campaign. So we were at a restaurant in the Delta of Arkansas deeper in the south than we are here last week. And I was talking, Josh and Misty and I went on a mission to go interview someone in Mississippi. I won't talk about what the episode is going to be about.

TBD. But we're talking about the Civil War and so we're at this restaurant and I guess I talk loud at restaurants. Well, you're just relaying the information in a very passionate way. Yeah, and I'm telling the guys we're eating with... To be clear, you do talk loud at this room. Thanks for bringing this up, Josh. But I was talking about the Civil War telling the guys we're eating lunch with, the waltz, what was going on. And all of a sudden, I hear a lady from 20 feet away.

Like, it was one table, but it was way over there. And she said, now, hey, you know. I mean, she didn't even, she didn't even like go, hey, I have something to add to your conversation. She just, she just said, she said, hey, hey, you know that Lincoln asked Robert E. Lee to be the general for the main Union Army, right? You know, and I was like, yeah, I heard that. Yeah, okay. Make sure it's on the record. Make sure it's on the record.

Yeah, yeah. She was, people are passionate about the Civil War, no doubt. especially in the south yeah yeah yeah I think they I think there's places

in the north where they are as well but are you considering Maryland in the north well I haven't thought that

I don't know so what I'll ask again Jeff has Misty's given hers I think Jeff has you could go again though

if you wanted to but what what stood out to you about about this episode Anything stand out, Josh, Ben? I do know a lot about emancipation proclamation, but a couple of thoughts.

Number two, to tie in this whole thing about branding, whoever termed it, emancipation proclamation, and the rhythm, that was genius. They could do. It is a good word. They could do it very well. Those guys, like, it was a lot easier than the proclamation of 18, you know. Yeah.

You can wrap it. Yeah, you can wrap it. Emancipation, probably that word means to be set free. Is that right? So I'm going to emancipate this bird out of a cage. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because as you learned, you talk about the podcast, it didn't exactly do that,

but it's the branding and the way it sticks with people. Kind of interesting. That is interesting. But number two, the stuff about the foreign diplomacy, that I had not really sunk in with me, and I did learn that. And that was super strategic and interesting to think about. And I knew all of the courting the South did for those alliances, but I had not. thought about the timing of that really like took a you know delta blow to them that was that was

interesting for me mm-hmm mm-hmm Josh what do you learn well I think that I was I was I was ever had this passion for the for the Civil War it was not something that was really talked about in our home and and my you know my my parents were from the north from the north they were from Michigan you know what I mean not a big but they didn't come to America until after the war. Right. So they wouldn't, they wouldn't. That's what you were saying. And right after the war. Oh, really? Like the 1880s. Came into Michigan? Yep, is when my German ancestors came in. So, which, you know, now that I'm listening to the podcast, I've wanted to be like, you know, what would it have been like in post-Civil War, you know, as a post-Civil War immigrant, you know? So I'm, I feel like I'm learning a lot because I feel like my knowledge of the Civil War was basically just what I learned in, grade school and high school and and it never really, it never felt like anything that had identity for me. So going, going through it following the podcast, I feel like I'm learning a lot

now that I'm an adult and I see the impact that it's had on people's lives and for generations. But learning that, I'll tell you one of the, a couple of things that were surprising to me is I didn't realize that the emancipation proclamation freed slaves in areas where he didn't have jurisdiction. I mean, that was like, what? Like, it's kind of like, gotcha journalism. Like, that's what I felt like when I heard that. It was almost like I had to rewind it and be like, did I hear what I thought I heard? And so that was surprising to me.

I didn't realize that. And then just like Ben's talking about learning the, that this wasn't just a, you know, I think there's this grandiose, larger-than-life view that we have of these big, you know, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Emancipation Proclamation. And it's just, you see it as this big thing that just freed the slaves. I had no idea the background of all the areas, the strategy behind this, you know, basically page and a half document that was political, ethical, foreign relations, I mean, all that kind of stuff, the impact that it had on that. And it really, like, it surprised me and gave me greater appreciation for what that, like, what was what all went into that. And just, you know, I really believe that that there are things that happen in our history that, that are kind of ordained. And I feel like this thing

was more than Lincoln. Like, I feel like it was, there was a design in it from our creator that created things that happened. And so I was really, I was really impacted by hearing all that. Well, you remember when Lincoln said that he'd made a deal with God that if they, if they won, if they won a battle, or maybe even won it, and teed them that he was going to release it. Yep. And he said that. Yep. The idea, all men are created equal in the Declaration of Independence. I was talking about this last week with some folks how, like we don't quite. quote, the Declaration of Independence and laws and court cases, anything like that. It's not a,

it's not like the Constitution. It's the moral foundation of America, especially the preamble there. And so by the time we get to the Civil War, it's like to be in tested. And the South is even saying, especially like the Vice President, Jefferson Davis, they're saying, hey, we're not all created equal. This is what's wrong. We're going to get this right this time. And they redesign what this is all going to be about. And Lincoln, with the Gettysburg Address, when he comes out in 1863, you know, it's fought July 1st and 3rd, 1863 in the Gettysburg Address, he quotes that again. And it's kind of like reestablishing this is the moral cause. It's not just propaganda. It's not just saying, you know, hearts and minds.

He's saying, this is the moral foundation. And that's always made me think that there was, from my position, a position of faith, that God's, God is saying, God was saying, okay, take another stab at it. You know, this is your, this is a second chance of reboot. What will you do with it now? Because he kind of rebooted everything right there with that act and with that speech. Mm-hmm. The moral foundation of America.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I thought another, here in Brooks described the Civil War as the dividing line in our history. Mm-hmm. I mean, it really, that was a, I saw that in all my classes. You know, I saw in college you get to choose either before Civil War history or after Civil War history.

And it never occurred to me, this may not be the way the rest of the world divides up. Yeah. And it really was a significant, a significant time in the U.S. where some of those ideals really were not fulfilled. You know, there's still, there's still challenges to them, but we're solidified as a, as a conscious part of our vision for equality and for mankind that I would say have had a significant impact on humankind since then. Mm-hmm. Miles to go. Yeah. Miles to go.

Yeah. But it was a good start. Yeah. Good start. I liked it when y'all talked about the method of fighting. Yes. I enjoyed that part because it, when you were. I remember when I was a kid, there was a TV miniseries called The Blue and the Grey,

which is actually a pretty good historical miniseries. It's not that great acting, but I've watched it since then. It's like, this is a pretty good telling of the Civil War. But I remember watching it when I was a kid and seeing them march into battle. And it's like, this is stupid. What are y'all doing this for? It's like, someone takes shelter. Take cover.

Yeah, yeah. Don't just walk out there while they're shooting, man. Yeah. And it was really kind of Grant who changed a lot of that. Elysses asked Grant in that before the Civil Civil War. war, you'll see people all saying they're going to be the Napoleon of the West. There's a guy down in South America, Simone Boulevard. He says that Santa Ana in Mexico, he's claiming, I'm going to be that Napoleon in the West. George McClellan in the Civil War, he's saying,

I'm going to be the Napoleon of the West. Little Napoleon is what he tried to call himself, try to get people to nickname him. And it doesn't work. And then after the Civil War, nobody's thinking about Napoleon because nobody wants to fight like Napoleon fought anymore. Because now we've got industrial warfare going on, and it's a, it's a different ballgame. I thought J.D.'s comments about people look back at the way that the war in Iran has been fought, and they go, wow, I can't believe that they did stuff like that. Because, yeah, my question to him was just like, these guys just know they're going to die. Right. Like the carnage, that's what stands out to me most about all this Civil War information. It's just the carnage. Just, I mean, if you're a

soldier, it just feels like you're, you're going to lose a limb or die. Yeah. Or, well, or die of disease. Yeah. And it just feels so, just crazy. Yeah. And then to understand that it was the increase in technology and then the old style of formations and battle techniques met at this really awkward time, because all of a sudden they could shoot rifles, which had, you know, spires. barrel in the barrel, rifled bullet that was much more accurate to a longer distance, you know. I thought it was interesting that it was the last war that horses were a big part of, you know, just because at 200 yards, a horse is an easy target. I bet a lot of horses died. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that was interesting.

That was interesting about how they fought. But, well, we've got. We've got at least one more episode. At least one more. For sure, one more. For sure, maybe. And who knows? Well, the summer's not over yet.

That's right. It's still hot, folks. You would probably appreciate this because of your podcast and whatnot. But when I think about, when I do a series on something, I feel like it's almost like writing a book that you kind of put on the shelf and it's the kind of work that you did. You know, so I didn't want to, I just wanted to do this justice. In my mind, this Bear Greece episode on the Civil War fits right in with the Mississippi River. Okay, not that they have any connection. But I just one day woke up and was like, man, I'm 44 years old and don't know anything about the Mississippi River.

This is not going the way I'm going with. You kind of done that a lot in your life. When you kill the bear, you're like, I don't know anything about it. this bear. I'm going to find out. Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, it's, it's been beneficial for you to claim ignorance and recognize it and go find answers. Yeah.

You know, some people are ignorant and don't know it. Yep. And some people are and don't care. Yeah. Well, any other thoughts? Anything else stand out to you in the other episodes or just any, it's just free time. from the Toccova's hot seat. I want George McClellan. I think we need to talk about George McClellan. Okay.

Just a little bit. This guy was just, now tell everyone who he was. He was the head of the Union Army. Okay. He's the lead general of the Union Army. Before Grant. And he's up in Virginia.

Yeah. And he's just horrible. Terrible. Every time they refer to him in anything, it's just like. Now, guys, would you talk about him like this if we were here. I would be glad to have a talk. I feel like that's what Judy Newcomb would say. Now, y'all be nice to.

Now, Gus. He really is off. He actually, Lincoln got so sick of him at one point that he actually just fired him because the guy just wouldn't fight. They say he was great at getting the army supplied, the Union Army supplied, getting him set up to go fight, but then he just wouldn't fight. And it's like chance after chance of the fighting, and it just doesn't happen. So Lincoln eventually fires him.

There's a disaster that happens. I can't remember which battle it was, but he has to bring McClellan back because he's very popular with the soldiers at the time. because he's getting them food. He comes back, and then he's just always trashing Abe Lincoln. Like he's, he runs against him for president in 1864. Like he's running on the Democratic ticket against the Republican Abraham Lincoln. He's just not a good guy at all. There was a rumor at one point. I read this in a biography on Robert E. Lee. There was a rumor that McClellan had a plan. And again, this is just a rumor, and it's kind of contested, but that had a plan that he

He was going to meet up in battle with Robert E. Lee, and the two of them would actually form a truce and march into Washington together and just declare peace. And we're going to go back to the way it was the day after secession began. Y'all can secede. We're going to do all that. It's just a rumor, but it was enough to get Abraham Lincoln out there to go have a talk with him about it. It's like, hey, is this actually going to happen?

What's your story? He goes, Abraham Lincoln goes to visit him one night at his house, and he's not there. So he just waits for him with one of his, I think it's with Edward Stanton. And McClellan comes in, sees who it is, and goes up to bed. It leaves the president sitting in the living room. And it's like, wow, you are just a piece of work. Just a piece of me. And Robert E. Lee, when he, after the war, they asked him who was the most formidable general, who was the greatest of the Union generals.

He said, George McClellan to be sure. Wow. Imagine because he knew he could take him pretty easy. That's what I've always figured. It's like he wanted, like he was. Well, I think he probably didn't. want to give the guy that beat him. Yeah.

The credit. There's other things that Robert E. Lee said, particularly at his surrender, that indicates that he wasn't too high on giving the guy that actually beat him a lot of credit. And then so, but his big claim to fame is Antietam. You know, he did win in Antietam, a tactical victory. You know, that was, when he had the plans. He had the plans in his hand. And he could have just, he probably could have defeated Lee's army at that time.

And instead, he takes a tactical victory and then sends letters homes to his wife about how great a job he did. And it's like, wow, you should read his letters. They're just amazing. He's a piece of work. He really thought he was really special. He was assured of that. He was special. I think inside the Civil War, you see how important the Army was to political advancement.

And to me, he's one of these guys that just really highly. lights, these people were not in it for love of the fight. You know, they were in it for the advancement. It could potentially bring them. And it crippled them. I mean, they just weren't able to, they weren't able to do what they needed to do. Particularly in the north. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of political generals. Closer to D.C. Yeah. And, you know, if you work in politics, you know that closer to capital cities, things are different. Those are like professional meters. people who live around capital cities, not exclusively.

I don't want to alienate half of your audience, but a lot of times I remember talking to someone, and I was traveling to a capital city for a meeting. He said, you're going all the way up there for a meeting? I said, yeah, I mean, they just, I mean, you've got to be in the room, and they keep calling these meetings, and he said, I find that people there really love to meet. They're really good at just meeting.

And the insinuation was the people who are away from there, you know, were the ones getting the work done and the people closer to there. But I think it's a pretty, it's something I've observed. The closer you are to a capital city, the more likely you are to be a meter, not a general. Yeah. Lincoln would, he would, there's a book, another book, Team of Rivals. It's my favorite biography on Lincoln. But it's, he would write these letters.

and it wasn't just to McClellan, but it was to different people who were just trashing them all the time. He would write these letters and just let them have it. It's like you, he wrote a letter to McClellan once. He said,

if you're not planning to use the army to fight, would you mind if I borrowed it? Yeah. You said that? Yeah, but then he would, to close the letter, he would just put unsigned, unsent, and put it in a file,

and he wouldn't send the letter. And so he would kind of vent his frustrations. Posterity gets to read it, but he wouldn't send it at the time. Wow. Yeah. They're like, my posterity will know I'm hilarious. Let's just say that Robert Lee's posterity didn't know we'd be writing letters to his wife.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like how we've personified posterity. Yeah. His alter ego. Yep.

All so interesting. And it's going to get more interesting. The next episode I'm really looking forward to. Yeah. I am too. It'll be good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well Hey this has been great Ben thanks for coming Enjoyed it Really appreciate it You're gonna look good And some to covas Can't wait

Yeah You know I always tell people You don't have to get a pair of cowboy boots There's a lot of stuff You get a nice pearl snap shirt It's like a poster boy Hat shirt belt I've noticed some of the snaps

You could get your wife A nice denim shirt Okay Nice Western shirt Okay I'll always come Reping the sneakers I always like to say,

I like to be ready to run if I need to. Ben, you're a big runner. You've been trained for a marathon. I am running a lot. These aren't my running shoes. These are my berry sneakers because they have bear grease colors on. Yeah, they do.

We can brand them for you if you want. I'm not into running in boots, but I'll go try some on. I mean, those are some good dress boots. Yeah, these are, this is something that they have. Rugged moths. I do like dress boots.

I do like dress boots. I'll wear every once in a while. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right, guys, well, really appreciate it. Aker and Griner, check out the Bearers YouTube channel. Keep really appreciate everyone listening and sharing the podcast. Yep. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live.

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