Bear Grease - Ep. 487: Render - Civil War Send Off: Snakes and Surrender

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

It's the end of Civil War Summer, and things close out in classic Bear Grease fashion as host Clay Newcomb along with Bear Newcomb and Josh "Landbridge" Spielmaker talk history with live venomous snakes in the same room. Returning guest and "Advanced Snake Enthusiast" Brad Birchfield joins in as the crew breaks down the real story behind Robert E. Lee's surrender at Appomattox Court House which, it turns out, wasn't actually a courthouse. Along the way, stories of a rattlesnake that survived 26 months without eating, some wild tales from the Amazon rainforest, and much more. Thank you to our sponsor, Tecovas. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Brought to you by Toccova's boots. I'm a cowboy bootman, and I've been wearing Tocobas for years. They're the most comfortable boot I've ever put on. Good boots for good times.

We have a very distinguished guest with us today on the Bear Grease render. He's been here at least once, if not twice. We have... How many times have you been here? I think just once. Just once. Yeah. We have the infamous Brad Birchfield with us.

Brad, turn your mic up just a little bit for me. Right here. I like that. Hey. There we go. We've brought Brad in for multiple reasons. We have brought him in because of his incredible expertise on the American Civil War.

Yep. Number one. Professor Brad Birchfield. Number two, if you recognize the name, Brad Birchfield, from the Bergerish Render, you will know that he is our resident snake man. That's right. And you probably can't hear it, but within 18 inches of my foot, there is the rattling of what is most likely a venomous raddler.

have a couple of snakes in here. We're going to pull them out later. I've also got here, Bear John Newcomb. Yep. See a bear? Good to be here. Josh Landbridge Spillmaker. This is the final Bear Greas render on the American Civil War summer.

The finale, we did six episodes. I ran into a guy in the airport the other day that was like, hey, Clay, Bear Greas Civil War Summer. and he wanted to make bets that the Bear Grie Civil War Summer was going to go like eight episodes. He was like, he gave me some terminology, gambling terminology for like over, under, for if it's going to actually end. But I think we've done it because we had a surrender. I don't know if you guys heard. Yeah.

The war is over. They surrender, you know, Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox Courthouse. which interestingly isn't a courthouse. That was new to me. Did you know that, Brad? Yeah. You knew that. Yeah.

And the same guy. You were educated at an American public school. That's right. Your parents were, wasn't your mom a teacher or something? My wife is. Your wife. Yeah, okay. She taught you a lot.

Yes. But yeah, the same guy's house basically where, you know, he was at Bull Run. And the battle started there and it ended in his front yard. That was wild. Yeah. So. And then, now, Bear, would you have known that, that Appomattox Courthouse was not actually a courthouse? No clue.

Yeah. No clue at all. Okay. Well, we're going to, we're going to talk about that, but there's no way that I'm going any further than, let's look at these snakes. You want to look at snakes already? I mean, unless you've got a... I kind of feel like we need to build up and end with snakes. I don't know.

Could we guess what's in there? I mean, I feel like we have a rough idea of one. Yes. Are they both venomous? They are both venomous. They're both venomous? Yeah. Okay.

Is the one on the orange bucket, timber rattler, the one in the red bucket, Western Diamondback? No. You're close. You're half right. Do you own a copperhead? Yes. How many snakes do you have? I'm really not sure.

He's not an owner. He's a guardian. That's right. They tell me. They love me. I've got, I think, more than, 40 but less than 50. They're really not really sure, yeah.

So they all have names. Scientific names. Okay. Yeah. They're not. They're like Larry and Steve. They're specimens. They're specimens.

Do you mind telling the story of the old snake that has since passed away? That's right. Yeah. So when the original podcast, I brought the big Timmer Rattlesnake. And that was a doozy. Yeah. And that was over two years ago. and for whatever reason he quit eating, which snakes do that sometimes.

And then they'll go off feed and then they'll come back on feed. And sometimes you can do little things. But everything I tried over this thing would not eat. But it was so massive that it survived. And again, this is attributed to their incredible metabolism. But it survived 26, 27 months without a meal. So two years and two months. That is unbelievable.

Wow. But it found. It would drink. We starved. The snake died of old age. That's my assumption, because it was old. It was 25 plus years old. 25 plus years old.

I had it for 15, and I got it from the university. It was a retired animal that they were using, and it was probably 20 years old up there. So, I mean, it may have been closer. So if you were walking out in the woods and you see a timber rattlesnake coiled up, that snake might have been laying there for two years. I mean, it's possible.

I mean, he probably would have moved. He probably would have moved. Yeah, during cold season and stuff. I just think about an animal that just would have been dormant. That was kind of the idea that they wouldn't be hunting and they obviously wouldn't be moving around too much because they're probably conserving energy if they're not eating for over two years. They would probably stay in their wintertime hibernaculum, den.

Hibernaculum. That's the fancy word. Is that a snake word or is that an animal word? I think it's a snake word. I don't know, though. Bears. Do bears have a hibernacum? Bears, hibernate.

But yeah, you would hear the term a den. It wouldn't be a hibernaculum. Same thing with rattlesnakes, though. You hear rattlesnake den, but it's technically a hibernaculum. Well, is there a way to trace back who taught you this word? Probably Dr. Steve Beaupre from the University of Arkansas. Okay. He's fresh on my mind because I had dinner with him last night.

But, yeah, he taught me a lot of big words. And so you're a, you're not a trained biologist. But you're not a degree biologist, correct. You're not a herpetologist. No. I'm going to, I'm going to. What does the degree even mean? Exactly.

But you've been messing around with snakes your whole life. And I mean, you're essentially a snake biologist. Yes. Yeah. I like to think I play one on the internet. But, uh, yeah, I'm a, I'm a advanced snake enthusiast, I think would be a good. You know, you're the most, you're the most normal advanced snake enthusiast I've ever been around. And to say you're normal is a little bit.

bit of a, you know, maybe a slide of words here. I'll think. But I've, I've been around some snake people. Yeah. I run across these same people in my little circles. Run across or run with. Well, sometimes run with. Yeah, it just depends.

Tell us about your trip to South America. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I got to go to the Amazon rainforest back in February, which it turns out in, and the Peru, they don't have like a summer, winter, spring. they have a rainy season or a dry season. And we were there during the rainy season. And we stayed, I think we were like 60-something miles down the Amazon from Akitos. At a little research station.

And they have a generator there. And they would run the generator twice a day so you could charge your phone. But like no. No, yeah, it was a lot. Off the grid. Turns out, as scared as most people are of snakes, I'm that way about spiders. And there are more spiders in the, Peruvian jungle, then you can, you just can't believe.

And some of the guys I went with are into spiders and stuff. And so they were all excited, but I was pretty much terrified the entire time. I don't particularly care for spiders. Venomous spiders. Yes. In fact, I won't get into details on this, but all the listeners out there, if you'll go to your phone and Google, wandering spider, wondering spider. Wandering spider. It's like one of the top three deadliest spiders in the planet, I think.

But it's got a very strange venom. and they're, I don't say they're aggressive, but they're not, they're kind of like a cotton mouth. They don't attack you, but they don't back down. I got you. If you run across one, they just kind of, you know, bow up at you. Are they big? Whoa. Yeah, I would say three, four inches across.

Holy smokes. That's a big spider. That's a crazy-looking spider. Who! I can get to the Wikipedia and read that. Oh, yeah. See if you think it's worth mentioning. There's a bear just pulled up a picture on his phone of a giant arragnet with two arms raised to the heavens.

So like, or you could call it like, yeah, raised to the heavens or like a referee call them for a field goal. Well, so we're down there with a bunch of tree huggers for all practical purposes. So normally, like most people kill snakes, I will stomp a spider and get great joy in doing so. But I was like, I can't really do this, you know, I'm down here. And so we had one that lived under our porch. We had these steps that went up to our little thing called a Tambo. It's basically like a little Gilgans Island hut on stilts. And at the bottom of the stairs, there was a large wandering spider that lived under the bottom stairs.

And every night, I would go out to go take a shower or something. And the spider would be there just waiting. And he did not move. And we had to, we figured out a way to manage it, but it was not pleasant. So killing him wasn't an option. No. And one night lifted up the toilet, big one in the toilet, hanging out. No way.

I bet you killed him. Nope. I just went to another toilet. No. I just abandoned ship. I mean, these things, they're everywhere. And other spiders, like, have you ever heard of a bird eating spider? No.

It's the largest spider. Goliath bird eater? Yes, we saw one of those. I want to know who came up with that name. I don't know. And I think they should name more critters. I agree. There's a Goliath grouper.

Yeah. Goliath, yeah. But we saw one of those, and the guy was like, oh, it's not a real big one. But it was literally probably eight, ten inches across. Oh, my Lord. That's terrifying. Is that a venomous spider? A crab.

That's a tarantula. I mean, it's venomous, but it's not dead. yeah but like saying scorpions they've got all those i mean so in my mind before we went i was like i'm gonna buy machete and take my bullwhip because i do own some bullwhips and uh a fedora maybe it's not as normal as we think and me chopping through the jungle having adventures and when i got down there and saw where like underneath big leaves there'd be nests of wasps oh and then scorpions and then bullet ants you'd be like lean up against a tree and there'd be a trail of bullet ants so Literally I was walking, you know, as thinly as I could through the trails,

trying not to touch anything. It was terrifying. Wow. We did find a bunch of snakes. We found, I don't know how many. I think total species list was like 160 different species of reptiles, amphibians and arachnans and stuff. But we didn't find the one snake that I wanted to find, which is a bushmaster. It's the largest venomous snake in this hemisphere.

And it's a very interesting. It's a pit viper, but it lays eggs. Most pit bivers don't Have live birth Yeah Oh really? So some snakes have live birth And some snakes

Lay eggs Technically they have eggs In their belly And then they hatch out And then the live snake emerges From the They hatch inside But we call that live birth

Versus laying an egg And abandoning it Like most snakes do And then the egg hatches itself Wow How big is a bushmaster They can get 8 to 12 feet Oh my Lord

Big Big And they're real deadly Very very very very, yeah. What was the chances of you seeing one? It was really high because this group that we went with has, they do this every year. And they were, I think, 14 of 14 trips where they found a Bushmaster. And we broke that streak for them.

Oh, man. So I did find the coolest thing I found was a six foot Peruvian boa, boa constrictor, which as a kid, you know, I'd see these in National Geographic. And me and my son were walking and I was, it was raining because it just comes. It's rainforest sun it rains. And I stepped on something, because I was looking kind of at the periphery, I wasn't looking right in front of me. And, like, I stepped in something kind of squished.

And I looked down, and there was a six-foot bowl constrictor. I mean, it looked like, you know, a pet store. You know, it was just awesome to see a wild one. Did he strike at you? He was not pleasant. Yeah. Turns out they don't like to be handled. I didn't get bit, but we had a good time trying to get in a bag to show everybody else.

So how, so was this like a, like an eco? tour? Yeah, more or less. You picked up on the dark web or some of them? Now, I've got some friends, some of these people, and they do an ecotour thing there, and a lot of the money goes to purchase tracks of the rainforest so it doesn't get cut down. And so they're preserving habitat down there. So even in the snake realm, we're big on public lands and saving habitat and all that

kind of stuff, too. So you've traveled all across the country here in America looking for snakes. Like, you know, randomly you'll be somewhere and you'll be like, yeah, I'm looking Welcome for this snake. You're trying to check off a list. Right. Seeing every species of snake in America. Pretty much.

Or in. Yeah. In America right now, yeah. Actually, in Labor Day weekend, I'm going south of the border to look for the last rattlesnake that is the last U.S. rattlesnake. It's called a Crodolus, Willardye Obscuris. It's the New Mexico original rattlesnake.

And so they occur on two mountain ranges down kind of the Boothill area of New Mexico. But they're... What border? are you crossing? The Mexican one. So this is in New Mexico, though. Yeah.

So there's two places you can find them in the U.S. And they're functionally extirpated from this range. There's another range that you can't get on because it's owned by the Nature Conservancy. And they do research on these so they don't want anybody there messing with them. But across the border into Mexico, they're fairly common. So we're hooking up with a guy that's been several times. And he's assured me everything's good and safe. And so we'll see.

Okay. So when are you doing that? That'd be Labor Day weekend. Labor Day weekend. Yeah. We can have a post-mortem if I get killed. Say we're going to have a moment of silence. I will dedicate an episode to you.

Yeah, we go. Get killed. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, we do. We chase a lot of different snakes in different areas, just like y'all do when you go hunting. You want to kill a bear in a Pasco? How many do you lack in North America?

Rattlesnakes? Just snakes. Oh, I wouldn't have any idea. Oh, so that's not a goal then. I kind of said that was a goal. No, the goal is the rattlesnakes. The rattlesnakes. How many rattlesnakes? How many rattlesnakes are there?

You put me on the spot here. I want to say 40. Wow. That many. Are there rattlesnakes on other continents? Yeah, South America has them. But it's a new world thing, yes. Really? Yeah, that's a great segue into my...

He has a flag. So we were talking about the Civil War eventually. But this actually comes for a revolutionary war. Hand that other aside to Clay. miss it here. We can get it all on the screen here. This is what is known as the Gadsden Battle Flag. It's made by a dude that was in the Navy.

And it's got a rattlesnake on it. It says, don't tread on me. It's got 13 segments on his rattle to signify the 13 colonies. And again, as this Clay said, rattlesnakes are a new world thing. They don't have these in Europe. So no one in Europe had ever seen these. And they come over here and they got this crazy snake that can kill you that has rattles on him.

So Benjamin Franklin was big on Rattles. I'm going to read a... We can just drape this over the saddle here. Yeah. So get out my cheaters here. Wow. So this was Benjamin Franklin wrote this in like, I think 1755 or something like that. It says, I recollected that her eye excelled in brightness, that of any other animal, and that she has no eyelids.

She may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance. she never begins an attack, nor when engaged, ever surrenders. She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage, as if anxious to prevent all pretensions of quarreling with her. The weapons with which nature has furnished her, she conceals in the roof of her mouth, so that those who are unacquainted with her, she appears to be most defenseless,

and even when those weapons are shown and extended for her defense, they appear weak and contemptible. But their wounds, however small, are decisive and fatal. Conscious of this, she never wounds till she has generally given notice even to her enemy and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her. So I thought that was a really interesting writing, Ben Franklin talking about the timber rattlesnake

because this is the same rattlesnake that we have here in the Ozarks. They have in the northeast. They range up into New York, Pennsylvania. And like I say, it was a good symbol. to kind of explain the deal to England at the time. It's like, don't, you know, don't mess with us. Don't tread on me. High price to be paid.

Yeah. Interesting. There you go. That was good. How about that? That was really good. Yep. Okay.

So I'm going to open this bucket. Oh. Yikes. Look at that guy. I'll use this thing here. Okay. So Brad has a five-gallon bucket, and he's opened the bucket. And in the bucket is a very, is a good-sized timber rattler that he is put on the floor in the office.

Right next to our feet. Wow. Wow. He's got a heck of a rattle, doesn't he? Hey, where's my phone at? There it is. Okay. So there's a timber rattler on the floor.

We can get it to stay still. How old would you say that snake is, Brad? This snake is probably five or six years old to be my guess. Wow. It's definitely a... This way, you better get out the way. Just be really still, Bear. I'm going to stand real close to Brad because he's going to protect himself.

I've got my boots on, so I'm probably okay. Bear's probably okay. You're probably okay, Bear. You're not okay now. So this is the same snake that they were seeing and is on that flag. And again, as you can see, she's really not too aggressive. or striky. It's a female.

I think so. This one is. Now it's going to take off and vanish somewhere. You better. I'm serious. Move. Sometimes it's easier just to grab one by the tail. Oh, my lord, Brad.

Wow. Okay, we're, we're completely wrangling this snake. We're wrapped up in wires here. Okay. Okay, so now we can kind of control it. So she's, I'd say, is she a four foot long? Four and a half foot long. Probably close.

Where'd you get her? This was actually a Arkansas gaming fish caused me now to do removals. And actually kind of a wayward home for ownerless snakes. The owner of this snake had apparently committed a crime and is going to spend some time at a state facility. And they wanted the snake gone. And so I ended up with it. But now this is going to be the one I use in my snake programs. Nice.

But as you can see. When you say snake programs. What do you mean? I do educational programs for schools and Boy Scouts. How many students have you lost to snack rights? We've never had a problem yet, but, you know, there's always that one. So this snake looks really bright. The skin looks really, yeah, it just shed recently.

Did it just shed? How often do they shed? It depends on how much they eat. In captivity, the way I feed these about once every month, it'll shed. Oh, really? That often. For the month, yeah. Yeah, I get them on a pretty regular eating schedule in the summertime.

And then, like say, in the wintertime, they go off feet. That snake has a bunch of rattles. Would a wild one have that many? Not usually. Usually they're going to break off. They crawl around and rocks and stuff, and they get brittle and they'll break. Right. But in captivity, they just usually retain them.

And it's funny because some species, I've got this big diamond back that I brought last time, and it loses rattles all the time. So it doesn't have a very big string of rattles. But the snake itself is almost six foot long. So you had to go out. and get this snake from this person's house. Yes. Can you tell us about that?

It was a little sketchy. The house, if I was a snake, that's probably where I would have stayed because there was a lot of junk laying around, a lot of car hoods and overturned my shed. Yeah, you sort of. A lot of stuff to hide under. And this one, he had built a big box in the back of the trailer house and had like a glass door as a lid. And so he had this big box with this in it and a copperhead.

Hmm. So, but the, I guess the people that own it did not want the snake, so here we up. Wow. It doesn't like the bucket, I've noticed. Some snakes go right in the bucket. Some don't care for it. He doesn't like the bucket. Stay in there.

Wow. And you've never been bitten by a poisonous snake? No, no. I'm pretty careful. Okay, that was snake. so now everybody's heart rates up. You know, okay, so when when people are around equine animals,

when I first started being around mules and horses a lot, I was very conscious of being behind them for getting kicked because Juju Knewcom told us about, well, we knew a girl from my hometown that got kicked in the face. She was about my age and really, really hurt. or bad. And so, Juju Nukem was worried about getting locked jaw from rusty things,

falling through ice, kidnappers, and getting kicked by horses, and four with the wrecks. Those were the big fears that we had. But now that I've been around equine animals a lot, I'm not really that worried about getting kicked by them. I just kind of,

you know, you just kind of understand. Yes. You understand body language. Body language. Yeah, it's the same way with snakes. Like, you're very comfortable with it. And, like, I'm maybe more comfortable than some because I handle a snake or two. But it's still like, hey, man, that's way too close.

Yeah. Have you had any close call? I actually think Brad's just reckless. Yeah. We could say that. You've never been bit. It's funny, you say that, though, because I've noticed, like, with my non-vimus snakes, Same thing.

I always equated to like a horse. A horse can tell when you're nervous. You get on a horse and you're nervous, the horse is going to nervous. Snakes are the same way. Like my non-venomous snakes, if you just reach in them, grab them, just nonchalantly, just open the cage to pick them up.

Fine. But if you go slow and you think, well, I'll just acclimate my hand and let it, bam, you'll get bit. Really? Every time. Yeah. You've heard the chaos.

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Okay, what do we got? This is just a copperhead. Oh, good. You know what? I'm glad you brought a copperhead. I actually thought about telling you to bring one. Hopefully, this will be more common. This one, hopefully.

So we have, we've got a nice, probably 30-inch long copperhead. So the reason I brought the copperhead, not sure if you're aware of the copperhead movement in the Civil War. Oh. So do you remember in the 80s there was a commercial for Time Life's books on the Civil War? And there was the Old West. Well, I remember the Civil War one and always said, the Copper. And I was like, what is that? So when I went to college, I had to do a paper.

And they're like, what subject do you want to do this on? I was like, the copperheads. Because I'm thinking it's got to be some like mercenary band of bad guys that are, you know. Right. Turns out it was just some peace Democrats that didn't want to fight the war. They called them the copperheads. I was very disappointed. But they were very anti-war.

And basically it kind of started up in the Ohio River. Valley area. Mm-hmm. And I think they ran a guy for president or maybe vice president with McClellan, but didn't really gain much traction. And that was the copperhead movement. Now, it was interesting, though, there was a case where there was a mail bag that came from one of the states that had seceded, and they opened it and it had a box in it.

The box hit the floor and busted open, and there were copperheads in it, two copperheads that they quickly dispatched. And so that kind of got tied in that they thought, you know, maybe these guys had done this or something. But anyway, a little anecdotal story. What's the range of the copperhead? Copperheads are, they have a huge range. They range from West Texas all the way to East Coast up into New York.

This, scientists change things all the time. We now have an eastern copperhead and a broadband and copperhead. I can't remember. but they basically split them, used to be split up into a northern copperhead, a southern copperhead, a Transpecos copperhead, a broadband copperhead, but now they've kind of lumped them all together. So this is basically an eastern copperhead is what they call this. Is a copperhead a pit viper? It is.

What's the most interesting thing about this, like the copperhead, how they make a living, what they do, where they live? Yeah, they're just really good at pest control. They eat warm-blooded prey. They'll eat mice and rats and, you know, ground squirrels. and stuff. A lot of people, like I can get on a rant here about all these hunters and conservationists that love the stuff and then they go out and they see a snake crossing road and they get out and beat it to death of the rock. Yes. And I just can't get my head wrapped around that because these guys do a lot of good. They eat squirrels and rats and stuff that have ticks and ticks carry tick-borne illnesses.

And interesting about copperheads, they have a component in their venom that they found out has a very powerful treatment against breast cancer cells. Really? And like I say, this is the redneck version. Basically, the cell, it stops up the cell, the cancer cell on both ends, so it can't get rid of waste and kills the cell. Unlike leukemia, or what do you call the radiation stuff. Chemotherapy.

Chemotherapy where it attacks the whole body and wrecks your whole system and the cancer cells. This is a very specific thing that only affects the cancer. cell. But what they found is the component that venom in the venom is so small and minute that it would take, you know, every copperhead in the southeast United States to create a dose of this that would work. And so now they're working with the bioscience people trying to come up with a synthetic version of it.

So the copperhead may be the, you know, one of the things that helps cure breast cancer. Interesting. Yeah. They do. Beautiful. They do have a place. And like I say, I tell people like the best, the only dangerous snake, out there is the one you're messing with.

If you just leave them alone, yeah, like this one. But, you know, if you see a snake, just leave it alone. It'll go about its business. Now I get it. If, you know, it's crossed upon your porch and you've got a three-year-old that runs around. I understand that kind of stuff, and that stuff happens. But the vast majority, I just get sick because my Facebook feed, you know, I see a lot of people with their prize and they've killed a big rattlesnake.

And I'm like, that poor snake was just out there and just had to be crossing the road. You know, and these guys with deer feeders put their deer feeder out and it attracts squirrels of nice, and that's what these guys eat. So they go their deer feeder and like, this rattlesnake was waiting to get somebody. It's like, no, the rattlesnake just figured out there was an easy place to get a meal. And so best just left alone. But copperheads, one of them, like I say, they're so common. They're just ubiquitous here.

But it's just one of the most beautiful snakes, I think. I just love it. How many copperheads do you think are? Within 300 feet of us right now. Probably a couple of dozen at least. Oh, yeah. You think so? Oh, yeah.

Now, let me tell you this, Brad. We're at the global headquarters here, and I can count on one hand the number of times in 20 years that I've seen a copperhead on this property. Yeah. What does that mean? They're very good at hiding. They're very, what did you call bears?

Crepuscular. Cropuscular? They are very crepuscular. So they're just not out during the daytime. Nope. They just hang out. Repuscular means crack a dawn in the evening. Right.

So they're nocturnal more. Is that what you would say? Yes. Okay. And like I say, they're very camouflaged and they don't require much so you don't see them out. So you do think that there's a bunch around here, even though I'm not seeing them. Yeah. Yeah.

And like I say, they keep things in check like, you know, chipmunks and little ground squirrels and stuff like that. But they'll eat frogs and stuff like that. that too. They're pretty optimistic. Would that snake strike only if it was feeling threatened? Yeah. So right now, I mean, if we didn't make any sudden movements or... If you could crawl over your feet, it wouldn't care. But if you reach down and grab it, then it's going to be like, whoa, what's that? Right. Probably turn around and strike. Yeah, they're very deceiving. They like to lull you into a, oh, this one's not very bidey. But you have to fight that urge to pick them up because, yes, it can end badly.

Do you think snakes have feeling? I don't know. That is a good question. Do snakes go to heaven? Definitely not. Next time, Misty Newcomb, who tries to convince me, even though it's not biblical, there may be some biblical loopholes about animals in the next dimension. She's like, I think dogs probably are up there. I'm going to be like, well, if dogs are there, snakes are there.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But there might be some biblical loopholes in that now that I think about it. Exactly. But, yeah, they're very common. And like I say, these are, they're not considered mildly venomous. But if you're going to get bit by something venomous, this is the one. Yeah.

You would. This is the snake that I envision, if I were bit by a snake, this is probably what it would be. Yeah. These are probably the accrued account for the most. If you were to be bitten, what would be your symptoms? Do you would, burning sensitive? two, you know, holes. At the bite. At the bite site. Yeah, that's very, uh, swell up common with pit viperin venomations. Yeah, a lot of pain at the bite side, a lot of swelling.

And, uh, basically what happens is that the venom breaks down the, uh, the red blood cell's ability to carry oxygen. So you kind of have some, you know, some respiratory side effects. And, uh, oh, really? So if he bit you on the ankle, you might have a hard time breathing. You're going to, yeah, probably have some trouble, you know, and would they administer anti-venom for a, for a copperhead? bite? Yeah, definitely. Would they? Yeah.

It depends on the severity of the bite. What all they usually do is monitor you for, they're supposed to monitor you for eight hours to make sure the venom's not progressing because it'll start swelling and they can mark, you know how. Now, would you be one that would be like, oh, it's not that big a deal to get bit by a copperhead? If it was a copperhead, I might attempt to ride it out unless I thought it was severe enough that it was going to, you know.

Is that something that could backfire on you, though? Oh, it could, yeah. Just all of a sudden you just go downhill. The phrase is time is tissue. So the longer you go before you get anti-ventum, the more tissue damage that could occur. Okay. But, you know, like I say, so many times snake bites,

since like I say, there's not really a, you know, in stone formula for this. But like, you know, if you just surprised, like if I reached down and picked up the snake and it bit me, it's not that it's not agitated. It may just be a, hey, leave me alone. And he may not inject any venom. all. Dry bite. Might be a dry bite, might just be, you know, slight. So that's possible a dry bite.

Yeah. They could strike you and not inject any venom. Yeah. Yeah. They can control the amount of venom that they release. But if it's, you know, agitated or if it's stepped on or, you know, then it may be really upset and really sock it to you, but you'd be able to pretty much tell. And you've never been bit by venom. Not by venomous. No. No. It's, uh, like I say, it's one of those deals. where, you know, if you play with fire, you're probably going to get burned at some point. So, I mean, I'm ready to accept responsibility for that, but I do everything I can to mitigate it. You know, using tools instead of my hands and bringing them in buckets instead of bags, you know, there's a lot of safety things you can do.

And like I say, I work with these guys in my snaker them all the time, so I kind of understand their body language and stuff. So very interesting animals, highly underrated. I know a guy who was shooting his tribe. bow missed the target went under the target to grab his arrow got bit by a copperhead and he went to the hospital and they just had him wait there for eight hours i guess and he said it swole up all the way to his shoulder yeah they never they never gave him any antivenom that's interesting and it swell down and he has some kind of nerve damage on his finger but oh really yeah for the most part it's all right yeah and that's the thing with doctors i mean they they cover this i'm sure in one class

for one test, but they're not familiar with dealing with snakebite. So a lot of doctors are kind of like, right. They're probably looking, you know, they're going to Google and how to treat snakebite. Yeah, exactly. That kind of stuff, because I just haven't treated them. There's a couple of guys that do that have a Facebook page called the National Snakebite support website. And it's very fascinating because it's controlled by doctors and you can't comment.

You can just see what, if you have a live bite situation, people will send them a message and then they'll tell them what to do and tell what the doctors do. You know, if they feel like they're not getting treatment, like the guy you're talking about probably should have been administered anti-ventum if the swelling progressed that much. Somebody should have been like, okay, yeah,

that's a pretty solid envenomation. Okay, Brad, these, we forgot to mention that you're in the Tukovas hot seat. Yes, give us for not. These Tukovas boots right here, they're on the, the rough out side of the leather.

What are the chances he bites me and it goes through that? Not at all. Yeah. So those are going to be snake. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're certain of that? Yep.

What are the chances that he would bite me above the boot? You know, I'm going to say 70% chance he doesn't. No, I'd say 30%. Yeah, I'd say 70% they don't. Yeah. So these are just standard size boots and there's a chance that he could buy. me up that high. Yeah.

Is that what you're saying? Good. A snake that size could, but it would be an odd thing. He would probably strike you like it. Right. Most of them are going to be down there. But you would feel like 100%, like he is not going to bite through that leather. No.

Okay. Whenever we... Not a copper head. No. Well, it's interesting that you say that because you're going to get a pair of Tocobo's boots, which we have here, and we would like for you to put them on and let that snake bite me. Yeah. It's a joke.

He is a little bit. He is going to get a pair. Did I tell you that? No. You get a pair of Tukovas boots. Thanks to Tukovas. It's getting better. Yeah, we forgot to tell you that.

We have a great partnership with Tukovas, and for being our guest, you will get a pair of boots from them. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you. Brad, you told me a story whenever we were snaking last year about maybe it was one of your buddies or something who had a rattlesnake, tripped on a greenbriar through it yeah yeah yeah buddy of mine did get envenomated by a large western diamond bag venomated that's like her hibernaculum yeah that's the big word he's the snake guys trying to impress us yeah yeah one of my best friends did get bitten by a large rattlesnake and it went south

very quickly hmm yeah uh yeah uh long story short he got bit and it didn't look like it wasn't too tell us a little bit about how he got bit i mean well kind of just did i wasn't there was up above. So like I said, this is just kind of related. He had a rattlesnake there that he didn't see and he was looking at another one. And he came around this rock and it was right there. And it,

he went to move and got in some green briars and it struck. And only one thing hit his leg about right here, which again, so it was a snake he should have known was there or y'all were looking for snakes? We're looking for snakes. He had one. Yeah. And it just happened to be there was another one.

There was another one. Yeah. And everybody says, oh, they travel in pairs. They don't travel in pairs. This was at a den site where we would expect to see multiple snakes. But anyway, the snake bites him, and we all were like, I wasn't there. I was 30 yards away. And so we all rushed down there.

That counts as you being there, Brad. Pretty close. And he said, I don't think it bit me. It's not burning or anything. And we're like, well, pull up your leg, your pant leg. And he did. And there was a very little slit. It looks like, you know, a briar scratched him.

And I mean, it wasn't two fang marks, you know, wasn't a traditional looking snake bite. And we were just kind of looked at it. And then you start seeing the blood started to drip out of it. And it looked like diluted red Kool-Aid. It was like really thin. And so we're like, yeah, you got some venom. And he's like, well, it doesn't burn. It doesn't hurt.

And at this point, you know, we've done this enough. We knew to get to the hospital. So we had about a, oh, probably 300 yard, 400 or 400 or walk. down a hill to get to my truck. And then we took off and called 911. And his luck would have it, there was an ambulance that just went by. Really? And they stopped.

And he was in the hospital. From the time he got bitten, he was in the hospital probably 20 minutes later. So as far as a snakeback goes, that's like best case scenario. And of course, I couldn't go back in the emergency room. So I was in the waiting room. And the nurse said, you know, we're going to take care of him. You just wait out here and get his insurance stuff and all that. So I'm waiting around.

And so I call his wife. And I'm like, hey, a little accident today. What you've been worrying about all these years has finally come to fruition. If I'm out snaking with Brad and my wife gets a call from Brad, she knows something's up. Yeah. Well, and I said, don't think it's that bad. We got him to hospital. Everything's, you know, as good as it could be.

And I hung up and she was a ways away and she was going to make her way there. And then the nurse comes out. She goes, we're going to lie flat into Tulsa. And I'm like, oh. Oh, okay. And so, yeah, I got to call her back and say, well, actually it's a little worse. It's a little worse than we thought. But he spent three, I think three days in ICU in Tulsa.

Wow. Got multiple doses of anti-ventum, which shows to me if you got bit by one of these big rattlesnakes and got a good two fangs into the muscle, it might have ended a lot differently. But yeah, it was touch and go there for a little bit. Is it a five-foot diamond back rattlesnake, yeah. It was. Is it diamondbacks venom different than a temperance? It is. It causes more tissue destruction and and probably more the anticoagulant than the blood and, you know, that kind of stuff. And the amount is the big issue. You know, a lot of people say baby snakes are more venomous than, and the babies can't control their venom. All that's complete bunk. Yeah. The only thing really matters is how big the snake is. And this one was a big, its head was big as my fist. Wow. So it got, you know, and like say, the, the, the, the wood.

wound it made, it must have just been a, you know, very minute amount, but it's that potent. And it put him in ICU for three days. It was, it was scary. But a timber rattler has a neurotoxone, right? Right. They have some neurotoxin mixed in. A dime back? Yes. Yeah. They have some different stuff. What does that mean? The neurotoxins affect your nervous system, obviously, and like it's a lot of the respiratory stuff. Like it'll just, you're, it'll send a message that says, you know, diaphragm quit working. And then you can't breathe or kidneys shut down. You know, There's a lot of other stuff with Timberouts. So really, you know, what's the most dangerous snake out there?

Well, it's the one you're messing with. But if I was going to get bit by something. Still a snake at her feet for those who are watching. Exactly. For the last 15 minutes, we've had. We are all dancing within the timor rattlesnake. Half of inches is going to the hospital, except for those of us wearing our topos. That's right.

Her and his Nike's there. Recipe for disaster. I might. And Brad with his snake shoes. Why does a timber rattler or a diamond back need that high potency venom to kill a squirrel? Just so they don't have to chase it down and waste energy. Oh, I got you. It just depends on the size of their food.

And like I say, a big diamond back is going to eat big things, like big squirrels, like a big fox squirrel. And that's going to take a little more than venom. Remember the video, I believe I sent it to you. I may have posted it. It was two falls ago. It was in October. and I came across a big coiled timber rattler as big as the one you just pulled out and it had eaten a squirrel and was so immobilized it could hardly move. Yeah, because they digest so slowly if they eat a big meal like that, it really puts them in danger because they can't really crawl off and hide somewhere.

They just have to kind of lay there until they digested enough to be able to move. That was pretty neat. Yeah, that was a cool video. It was, I mean, you could just almost, you could always. This was a snake you saw? Yeah, yeah. You could all but see, you know, like the squirrel's paws. Like, I mean, just like the snake was shaped like a squirrel, you know.

How often will a snake eat a meal like that? They're going to be opportunistic as many times as they can. They're kind of like a bear. They try to get as many calories as they can during this season so they can overwinter, you know. But they could live off if maybe they just caught one thing a year. Yeah, with Dr. Bopray up at the university, they had an animal at their study site in Madison County. It was a timber rattlesnake and it ate a single squirrel in a calendar year. One meal.

So, I mean. And it was absolutely fine. Yeah, it didn't lose any mass. It was just. Yeah, the snake that you lost that didn't eat, he clearly lost mass before he died. Yeah, eventually, yeah. And like I say, I'd assume he, his body was just consuming itself over that time. But, but yeah, very interesting.

This one will also eat rodents and. Yeah. I feed this one mice that are pre-frozen. How often do you feed this one? About once every two weeks. So it's a frozen, it's a, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be alive. No.

You just drop it in there and he just goes to town. Yep. Which is funny because, you know, in addition to the venom being used to kill the prey item, it's also a digestive thing. It kind of starts digesting it from the inside out. So technically, it's probably better if it strikes the prey item and gets that venom inside of it because starts breaking down the inside of the mouse. And then when he swallows it, it goes through his GI quicker, like I say, so it can be back on the move.

So he will strike a frozen mouse. If I dangle it in there and go Do-da-d-l-l-d-l-d-d-d-make little sounds. Yeah, they'll stream. What happens if you don't make the sounds? I'd like a video of that. Next time you're doing that, I can you send me a video? Sometimes I drop them in there and they just kind of look at them and they crawl off

and then I'll come back an hour later and it's eating. But sometimes I feel like I have to do the little, put them on the, I got some long hemistats, and I kind of dance them around and kind of get them to strike. Yeah. So. I heard a story of the other day, a guy that I knew found a tree. found a tree with a big cicada hatch two years ago. Yeah.

Found a tree that was just covered in them. Cicatins. Yeah. He said there were like 15 copperheads around it, tearing up those cicadas. Yep. They get the most protein they get for the years from cicadas. Really?

Not from rodents, yeah. Really? Copperheads, that's, anytime you have big cicada hatch, copperheads get real active because that's what they do. They have to eat them right when they come out of the shell, when they're like post-molk, and they're softer. and that they eat tons of cicadas. But yeah, that's cool.

Where was it at? I think it was down in, kind of near Little Rock area. There was a place up in Yale County where a guy has a tree in his yard, and a bunch of copperheads were coming up every year, like hundreds. Really? And, yeah, they did some work on it and really haven't ever figured out what was going on. But they thought it was cicadas. This is the original hypothesis.

If you had hundreds of copperheads, coming up in your yard, Brad. What would you do? I would celebrate. I'd be out there every night with a flashlight and some flip-flops and a beer. Like, let's catch some copperheads. No, I would find it interesting. And I would tell my kids and my wife don't go out there at night because there's

copperheads everywhere. But that's, you know, that would be very fascinating. Do you have a water moccasin? I do. Yeah. I thought about bringing it. Yeah. It's interesting because these are the same genus, which is their cousins,

copperheads and cotton. They call this an Upland moccasin is one of the old terms, yeah. Where does the term moccasin come from? Because if we think of a moccasins, I mean like a shoe. A shoe. Yeah, I don't know. I would assume the way that they look brownish leathery and maybe they're, I don't know. It's a good question.

Maybe they bite you in the feet. Well, that could be it too. Yeah. They bite you in the moccasin. Back to boots. So I have another friend, one of those people. And he was down in Louisiana and he found a huge cotton mouth. and he didn't have his camera and he didn't have his stick or something but he had the old knee-high rubber green lacrosse boots or lacrosse boots they were the green lacrosse which is what I wear and I feel like I'm you wear those when you're snaking that's something if I'm in a swampy area yeah that's usually what I'm wearing but he didn't have anything and he was forced to put his foot on it to hold onto it till the guy could get back with the camera and the stick and everything and it bit through the top of that rubber boot into the top of his foot and he

got to go to the hospital. Really? They can penetrate rubber boots. After I heard that story, I was a little more leery to wear those and thinking I'm bulletproof. The only time that I have been unintentionally struck by a snake, and honestly, the only time that a venomous snake has made contact with me in a strike was one time I was wearing lacrosse green boots. I was on the Quentin Farm over here in the Ozarks, and I was just walking. and I just felt something just tapped my leg and I stepped on a copper,

I didn't step on it. It was just like... Close enough that it struck. It was about 12 inches long and it just hit the side of my boot. I mean, it didn't even... Yeah. It did nothing.

But it was the only time of my life that I got struck completely by... And didn't know it. Right. Or wasn't messing with one. Like I've, you know, I had them strike at boot. and stuff, kind of messing with them. I think I'm learning this snake's method

because the last two minutes I was sitting here listening to you guys talking. I forgot there was a venomous snake here by the feet. You would do well at my house. This is like my living room. Does that snake have nostrils behind its eyes or are those scales? No.

Through little dots back behind its eyes. Oh, you're talking about on top of the head? So that's an interesting thing that pit vipers have. Timberattles snakes have it as well. And there's several different papers written about it, and I'm not an expert on any of them. Some of them think it is an eyeball thing to scare a bird or a raptor or something that they would think that's eyes. And other people say it's some kind of sensory organ that, you know, does something with light.

There's no, we don't know. No. Somebody may, but it's not me. Not us. Yeah. But yes, they all have these two little dots on the very top of their head. They're small. Yeah.

But I could see how if they were bigger, you know, I could make sense of it. looking like a mimicry of eyes. But, yeah, I think it's some sort of sensory thing, but I'm honestly not sure. Okay, this is a question like a seven-year-old might ask or five-year-old. Do you think if a rattlesnake bit a bear, would the bear get hurt just like a human? Yeah, yeah.

If it was a serious bite, yeah. It could, yeah, I don't know that a bear would die. That's a big animal, and it can, you know, that venom's going to be diffused throughout its system. Not like, you know, a 250-pound bear or 300-pound bear. But, yeah, definitely. So, interesting thing, I'm working on a project with Dr. Bopray. Everybody, you know, all these hunters.

Again, I can say, I'm a hunter too, just not like you guys. But we decided to put some game cameras at a Diamondback rattlesnake den. And it's been very fascinating to see the interactions with other animals. And one of the best ones is a big black bear. there's about a five-foot diamond-back rattlesnake and he's up on this shelf on this bluff and this bear comes up there and he's sniffing around and then he kind of starts raising up and he gets about eye level with this diamond back and the rattlesnake literally just goes just just a little bit and that bear almost does a back flip off of that bluff i mean he is

like wow i'm out of here yeah he took off that is interesting it was really fascinating you've heard the chaos now you can see it Hello. My gosh. Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish. Right inside the free IHare Radio app. Gets the blood going up. Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like the Tom Green Farmcast and park the bus.

Now with full video. We're building a ramp for Tony Hawk. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing. Right on your screen. Cheers. Open the free IHRRA radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. Before we get back into it, I want to tell you about the.

the new First Light, Bear Grease, Bibs. I have collaborated with First Light to build the perfect backcountry utility bib overall. And these might be new to the world, but they're not new to me. In 2019, almost seven years ago, I sketched out the first drawing, and I wanted these bibs to have a chapped front, to make them briar-proof. I wanted them to be breathable. I wanted them to have kind of an athletic fit. I wanted them to have a weatherproof pocket on the front for your cell phone if you fell in the river.

They've got lots of big pockets, lots of ventilation. They're tough, they're durable. They're made for small game hunting. They're made for working on the farm. And they're the bear grease bibs, man. They're now for sale at the meat eater.com slash bibbs. I bet bears get bit. I would think.

Think about it. If they've got four paws on the ground. They've got twice as much. and they're in snake country. Percentage-wise. We got two feet, they got four. Where you go to find a black bear in the woods is about where you'd go to find a snake too.

The first bear I ever shot, when I was tracking them, I got on the north face of this mountain and it was real thick, and I got to the point where I was looking around for blood and I just noticed something in my foot and right at my foot, there was a copperhead about an inch from my boot.

And it was just good snake country. I bet that... I would assume that bears can smell them. And yeah, they would have that, wouldn't they? Because they do, I'm sure, emit an older knife. They're irritated. They'll all musk and let out this really pungent musk. Do all snakes do that?

Yeah, yeah. But some of them are... Is that supposed to deter predation? Yeah. It deters me from picking them up sometimes because I just don't want to get it on my hands. It's a nasty smell. Yep. They cotton mows are notorious for doing it.

You know, there's a lot of old wives' tales that I debunk in my snake talks, But one of them is you might be able to smell a cotton mouth where you can see it. That's 100% true because I've been in areas where, you know, there's cotton mouths and you're messing around and you haven't found one yet. But also, you smell this really pungent odor. Then, you know, there's cotton mouth there. But like I say, I would assume that a bear could smell them and know when to avoid him. But it was very interesting because this one was up on a rock. So I'm guessing maybe he couldn't really smell it until he got eye level with it.

But the snake rattled very subtly. And that bear just like, wow. he was gone. He knew to get out of there. Well, that's very interesting. That's enough snake talk. Very interesting. Listeners are asleep now.

Well, this is the final episode that we're going to talk about the American Civil War for now. Who knows? Maybe we'll do it again. Rekindle. Maybe we'll do a completely different episode and dip more buckets out of the Civil War. Probably not.

But this last episode, what stood out to you? Did you learn something? What stood out to you? Josh, we can start with you. Well, I think, like I've said, I didn't know a whole lot. I think just that I was really interested in the interactions between Grant and Lee at the surrender. I mean, there seemed to be this almost reverend. that Grant had of Lee, but at the same time was just like, we're done. You know what I mean? We've dominated.

We're here to end this thing, but I respect you. You know what I mean? And I think that seeing, I have this growing appreciation for Grant because it seemed like at that point he was like it's done. You know what I mean? I don't have to. We did the total war. It worked. And now let's just get the union back together.

And I think I really liked hearing that interaction between those two. It was a fascinating interaction. And the typical narrative is that Robert E. Lee kind of blew off Grant a little bit, which I think that's, it feels like that may have been what he was trying to do. But it was also probably the worst day, maybe not the worst day of his life. I don't know what the worst day of his life was to be. But he was not in the mood for pleasantries. No.

But I do, I, he was, Grant was living rent-free. Yeah. And Robert Lee's head. What did he say I've tried to remember? He actually, and maybe in a way, a little bit of a, maybe it wasn't a slight. Maybe it was just him just being as a matter of fact. You know, just like, you know what? I've tried to remember you, but I couldn't.

Maybe he was just being honest. Or maybe he was trying to put him in his place like, yeah, I don't remember you. It's a little bit, it's probably. is probably not okay or whether I'm accurate or not in like the way we perceive it and kind of like the worst possible version. What do you think, Brad?

I agree. Yeah. You think probably it was... Yeah, I don't think it was a slight. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. The, you know, it's very interesting because like I say, the North just didn't seem like they thought it was going to be that hard.

And the South was in it all in from the get-go. and you know and you get a series of generals in the north that are kind of cissies that like well if I just had one more day or if I just had some more men I would do this but and then Grant you know comes along and just this is the the whole concept of they're going to get it done regardless of how you've known much about Grant yeah but you're kind of a history buff yeah yeah yeah I was telling Josh the only thing I remember about Grant from my Civil War class in college was that his wife was cross-eyed Yes. So, yeah. Wasn't that interesting? It was, yes. That was one of my favorite parts of the grant episode. Oh, very fascinating.

When his wife, when he became president, she met with a surgeon. Attempts to get her eyes fixed. And he's like, those are the eyes I fell in love with. Yeah. But the, you know, just the whole allure around. Mary Crossite woman. The whole. Love her with all your heart.

Allure with Robert Lee, you know, because he. he was a good general and, you know, very tactically sound and had Jackson not died after Chancellorsville, do things go a different way? I don't know. You think there is a case to be made if Stonewall Jackson had lived, though it could have been different? I think, yes. I don't know, maybe not different. It would have probably ended up the same place, but it may have took longer. He was that influential? Oh, yeah. We really didn't cover Stonewall Jackson at all. You could do a whole thing on him. He's a very interesting cat. Yeah.

But he was definitely Lee's right hand. And after Gettysburg, I felt like the South had been gut punched and was just kind of stumbling waiting to get knocked out at that point, you know. Baird, what did you think? I also thought that the surrender interaction was pretty interesting. One part that I found really interesting was Grant's thoughts on the war being over. and Robert E. Lee being a valiant enemy. I can't remember how he worded it,

but like how Grant almost felt depressed from... He felt melancholy. That was the word of the age. Today it's like mental health and depression. They used the word melancholy back in those days. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. And it, I mean, I just kind of tried to put myself in either of their shoes and just think about that.

Like, if your whole mission, for years was to end this war or to win the war and it's kind of like in a way it was like grant versus robertie lee with their armies and robertie lee was grant's enemy then for for that to be finalized like that that was probably his whole purpose in life for a long time for that to be finalized would have been quite the i mean i can kind of see how grant would have gotten to that place a little bit. But yeah, I thought it was interesting. His respect for his enemy, but also it said that he couldn't imagine a worse cause to be

fighting for. Yeah. So, yeah, it's kind of interesting to look at wars like that from a long time ago because there was a lot more, I guess the word could be like chivalry or just... Chivalry? Yeah. It's just interesting because that's not at all. how it would be today.

Yes. Yeah, they say that the Civil War is one of the first kind of modern wars, but these guys would have been trained and kind of grown up with this heritage of this chivalry inside of, you know, like this meeting, this surrender, even though it was an unconditional surrender, it still probably had remnants of kind of an older era that really wouldn't happen like that, again, to my knowledge. in American history where there would be a surrender quite like this. But I thought it was, I thought it was interesting and how Grant was like, don't celebrate,

like telling his guys not to celebrate, which was so consistent with who he was. So Misty and I had been listening to on tape, on tape, it's not tape. On eight track. On eight track. We've been listening to Grant, the book by Ron. churnau. That's a heck of a book there. The book is

a thousand pages long and it is 48 hours of audio. Wow. And it is fascinating. I listened to it while I was bulldozing a couple weeks ago. And it goes into like enormous detail

that we weren't able to get into but you get this picture of Grant, who he was. And Grant when he was 20, I think would have done the same thing as the Grant that was 40. When he beat his enemy, he was like, we're not going to celebrate. He had empathy for defeat. You know, you can be so clinical and introspective on somebody and, you know, like try to attribute things. And maybe there's a connection there or not.

But what they say, what Chernow says is that Grant had experienced so much defeat in his life. you know in all of grant's 30s were just this like failure after failure after failure basically left the army because of because of his alcohol abuse didn't really get kicked out but kind of got kicked out hard to say business failures all this stuff and so in the moment when he actually won and this guy on the other side of the table was the one that failed he kind of had he showed some empathy because there's a hundred different versions of that story. I mean, it's the one that we have, but there's a hundred different versions of that story where, you know, the victor goes, you're going to prison. Or you know what? We're going to go put you in the gallows this afternoon. And he probably would have been justified in doing that. But Lincoln's leadership and then grants just the history of who he was, you know, that didn't happen. And I felt like that that was, I'm not an expert on other wars of the world. Perhaps, and

certainly there are examples of this kind of thing happening in other places where, you know, a general in some way shows mercy towards this vehement foe. But it feels like that that is at least the ideal that we would have as Americans. Like this moment kind of shows that a little bit. I'm reminded there's a scene in the series Band of Brothers. At the end of the war, there's a general that's submitting his sidearm to winners, the main character,

and he tells him to keep it. And I think it's kind of the same thing. He's like, you know, surrender with dignity. He wasn't going to rub his nose in it and he let him keep his pistol. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Classy. Classy. And Grant's is such a, just an amazing story because like I say, comes from nothing and is the president. Yeah. Much less, you know, winning the Civil War. It makes you wonder if Grant was there instead of McClellan or Mead or any of these other guys.

Earlier. The things, yeah. If he had gotten noticed earlier and was in the east, would things have been different? I don't know. Yeah. But he definitely had a different outlook on, you know, how to maintain the war. prosecute it and you know

totally different from the other guys you know he was he was only the lead of the army for yeah two years yeah about two years so yeah yeah yeah you know so we painted this picture and told a version of the story that

probably tilted the scales towards really positive things about grant and and I did that because I mean that's just the story that I that I heard and I felt like it was accurate. But also, I think it probably had to do with how little I knew about Grant. And as I learned about him, I was just like, wow, look at this guy.

This is pretty incredible. But there's a version of the story that all these wonderful things that we talk about, Grant, aren't really that relevant. And basically, they just had twice as many soldiers and twice as much supplies. And that's why they won. what say you I mean I'm sure that's part of it

that helps I didn't hurt that helps I didn't actually realize that the union had that much of an advantage until this podcast series but I mean yeah

it definitely feels like that would be a big part of it but huge good good leadership does have to be does seem like you would also need good leadership well the fact that it was kind of a stalemate until for a couple of years anyway, even in the midst of this difference in supplies and men, tells you that leadership maybe did have something to do with it.

Yeah. Because if, you know, they were just, they just continued to not be able to defeat the South, not be able to defeat the South. And then, but eventually they just kind of wore them down. What did you think about, Brad, the last, section of the podcast where I read from McPherson's book where he basically says everybody says that the South was just outnumbered and they got beat and that was kind of part of the

part of the narrative of why they got beat but then he's like but history tells us that they could have won what say you I you know the I'm thinking about Shelby foot you know talking about they talked to some Civil War soldier in Virginia or something. He says, why are you fighting? It's like, because they're down here, you know. So the South kind of had a different, I mean, I know slavery is the key issue, but the South was fighting for different reasons, you know, than the North. I don't know. That's a deep thought.

but well what did you not to if you want to complete your thought complete it but i've got another question for you and what's that what did you think about my rambo reference i caught that i enjoyed it yes you like me are a rambo aficionado absolutely yes but um yeah the uh i don't know there's a you know it's interesting there's so many layers to civil war and like a lot of people in south were descended from Scottish and Wales and the, you know, warring tribes of back then. Those were the people that settled in the South, and, you know, they had a whole different, they were a lot more aggressive and I think, you know, versus the North, which is kind of like, I don't know, the military wasn't as, it was more of a profession than, you know, I don't

know where I'm going with this, but, but, you know, it was almost like a religious thing in the south to fight against this and then in the north maybe not so much um yeah yeah i've heard that before and sometimes i wonder if if that's true or not yeah you know what i mean i know as you get older you start seeing how history is it's always written by the winners what about what about the lost cause would that have been a phrase that you would have known growing up down in the south of your whole life. I'd never heard it until I took that class in college. Okay. So you do. Yeah, but yeah, I was aware of that. And then like I said, I never realized that's, you know, we still heard echoes of that in the 80s, 90s. Just a good old boy. That's right. I mean, how could that be bad? I mean, but, uh, yeah, it is

interesting how that's morphed over time, but it really comes from a kind of a dark place. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah. Yes. Um, what else? Anything. Anything else stand out to you, Josh, in the whole series. Now we're done, the whole series. Yeah. I feel like I'm saying goodbye to a relative, like a, you know, a new relative. You're finally going to have to put the Civil War behind you, Josh. It's been over 160 years. I know. I know. Okay. But literally like you meet this, this family member and you really like them, and now they got to leave. So I think, I think, I think just. You want to crank out another one? Yeah, one more. Just one more good old times we'll do a we'll do uh encore yeah what do you call it when the band comes back out

encore yeah um i think i think for me i just have appreciated it just learning the history of the nation i was born in you know what i mean and and being able to to uh value the lessons learned and and see how it's kind of shaped our country for good and for bad but to be able to discern that from these historical events. So I really appreciate that. I've gained new appreciation for different players inside of the war, you know, Grant being a big one. I think even hearing new things about Lincoln that I didn't know about,

kind of put him in a different light to me. And so, yeah, I think it's been really great. What thoughts on me saying that we've kind of left out the story of the, of the slaves. Yeah, I would have... I didn't want it to come across as like a virtue signal of, like... But I felt it was actually true. We tried to find...

Well, there is literature out there. There's maybe not a lot as compared to the volumes that are just about the actual war. Right. But I did think it was important. to say that because maybe that'll be Civil War Summer Part 2 well it's it's we are going to talk about reconstruction at some point okay which

I may have mentioned something in the vein of that but I think the reconstruction era and leading up to today I mean like this war had massive consequences that just rippled through

through America and I think maybe even continues to do so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The economics of the modern South are still impacted by reconstruction. Wow. And if you want to look at economics, education, all the things that you hope that your state would be at the top of a list of 50,

most of the southern states are at the bottom of all the important stuff. And there can be a fairly coherent line drawn. back to Reconstruction. Well, don't give away everything. You know what? We're not even going to do the episode anymore. You already know what's going to happen. No, and these are questions that I have.

I have a general understanding of it. But at some point in the future, we're going to come back to this. Sound good, Bear? Is you okay with that? Yeah. Okay. It's a fascinating story. It really is.

Like I say, you get more of appreciation for not to get emotional, but when the flag flies and you're saying the Pledge of Allegiance, that means something. You know, but it doesn't, don't take that lightly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A lot of history. Well, closing comments?

Don't tread on me. Brad, what's the most interesting? You were peppering us with all kind of interesting facts. You're on your way today to where? To the least. Levin Helm exhibit. And you were very disappointed that I didn't know who that was. Listeners, Clay Newcomb, did not know who Levin'on Helm was.

So I've tried to educate him about Levant Helm and the band and romping Ronnie Hawkins and all the musical history that Fayetteville has. And so hopefully he'll start listening to some music and doing some documentary watching and learn about the band and Levin' Helm of Arkansas. and his legacy. So you're going to see some of his... Yeah, some of his memorabilion stuff. So there's a traveling exhibit apparently up in Fayetteville, Arkansas right now.

And kind of excited. You're going to take these snakes in with you? I've actually got a place to take them. I was going to ask you if I could just leave them here. Oh. But then I'd have to come all the way back down here and, you know, so I got a spot in Fayetteville. I can leave it. Like a doggie daycare for snakes?

Snakes boarding. If that had blown up and this had blown up, then I was going to throw them in a pillcase and throw me in a backpack and then walk around with a backpack full of rattlesnakes. But that was my last resort. Wow. I don't have to do that. Wrap them up in this dump tread on me flag. What's the wildest carry a snake in a odd play story you have? When I went to school at the University of Arkansas, I can remember multiple times of having a snake in a backpack that I found on the road on the way to school.

And one time I got called me and said, hey, can catch this. I didn't have time, so I just put it my backpack and, like, I would sit on the floor and then I would notice the snake would be moving. And one time my girl's like, why is your backpack moving? It's like, I'm not sure. And we just left it at that. Don't worry about it. Yeah, I have carried snakes into some odd places. Funny story, where I work, it's a big company, and they have a room where all the servers are, right? And it stays warm in, like, 75 degrees. Well, I had a snake program in mid-December, and I lived about 35 miles from work, so I didn't want to, have to come back, get my snakes, go back over there.

I thought I was taking them with me, and I'll just stick them down there in that server room, because nobody goes down there. So I took all my venomous snakes and put them in there, and then I got a panicked call about 8.30 from a guy saying, hey, I need you to come down here right now. And I'm like, well, let me finish it. He's on, no, I'm serious, right now. You need to come right now.

And one of the VPs, vice president of the company, had for some reason went down there and saw these buckets and was like, what is this? And opened the lid and found a rattlesnake. He was not a snake guy. And so I had to put them in my car and let the car idle for four hours while was it working. Did you get in trouble?

No. I mean, other than don't you ever do this again or we'll fire you? Did you actually have to talk to the VP? Oh, yeah. He wasn't happy? He was not impressed. No. And so, yeah.

So, yeah, snakes have put me in some odd situations. But I was like, they're in buckets. I should have put a dude. not, and the fact I think I did. I had a note that said, do not touch. So I'm like, this on you. So obviously he opens the bucket. Well, it's not yours.

Don't test, you know, don't touch it. Especially if it's rattling. Yeah, exactly. So legendary Newcomb lore story. When I was a kid, and I remember it so vividly because I was just a kid, so I was impressionable. But my dad, Gary Believer Newcomb, and John Mescoe, Dr. John Mescoe, were out riding four-wheelers.

They came across a big timber rattle. And now my dad is an advocate of snakes and didn't like to kill him, but this group, and they decided they were going to, well, they were going to mount this snake. John Meska was going to mount the snake. Right. It was a nice one. And so he took a little switch and just popped it on the back of the neck. There was a period of time when that was a way to kill a snake. And maybe it still is.

But I remember at the time it was like, oh, yeah, this is the way to do it without. Don't mess it up. Yeah. without hurting it. So he pops this snake on the back of the neck, supposedly breaking the spine. And the snake's dead. This was also the period of fanny packs in the late 80s and early 90s.

And so John had a real tree, real tree bark, big fanny pack, like for hunting. And he puts this big snake in the fanny pack. And dad says they went riding for several hours, and the snake came alive, came back. Oh, my gosh. To life. Maybe never was dead, you know, obviously. And it's, it's, you know, wiggling around on him,

and they go to the text, to her with Larry Hobbs, man named Larry Hobbs. And dad said, John walks in to Larry Hobbs, little bitty, he just had a little portable building, you know,

like 10 by 12. That was his, and he said, John walked in and unzip that fanny pack and just flip that snake out right in the midst of all three of them sitting in there. And that snake just, you know, and it was a big story.

That's pretty funny. So, yeah, John Mesco. Did you, hey, did you see my snake up there? No. Sorry, man. Wow. Well, that's a big one. Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah. I didn't have anything to do with that. I was about to say, where'd that come from? It came from Arkansas. Yeah. Howard County. Oh, I was about saying that looks like South Arkansas to me. Mm-hmm.

Just because the amount of chevrons and the... Yeah. I do have a big, big snake skin in this office. That is big. That's a, that's a good one. Yep. Well, thanks for coming, Brad. Thank you for having me.

Really appreciate it, man. I enjoyed it. Bear. Hey, what about the channel? What's coming up on the channel? Well, this week, the video was making a fishing lure using only a leatherman. So I went and cut down a little piece of river birch, made a fishing lure, caught some fish on it. Next week, we're bringing back another cooking with mom.

Oh. Oh, crowd favorite. Yeah, crowd favorite. Hmm. So be ready. You don't have any of them egg rolls, do you? Oh, I wish we did. Squirrel egg rolls?

That looked good. They were. Yeah. I've really enjoyed your videos. I watched them religiously now. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. Appreciate it.

Nice. Good stuff. Good stuff. Nice, nice, nice. Well, thanks for watching everybody. We're out of Bear Greece Civil War Summer. So the next Bear Greece is just complete mystery what it's going to be about.

The war is over. The war is over. Unconditional surrender. Yep. All right. Keep the wild place is wild because that's where rattlesnakes

and copperheads live. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.