Bear Grease - Ep. 84: CLAUDE MAXWELL

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

This week, after getting a surprising email, Clay pulls an audible and hops a flight back to Ohio just to interview one very unique man - a business owner, a family man, and a respected pillar of his community. Without saying too much, what we can tell you is this: loyal listeners will recognize the popular threads of redemption, forgiveness and nuance woven into the tapestry of this story. To say that this episode is a surprise might be an understatement, but what we can guarantee is, you're not gonna wanna miss this one! Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware gear at firstlight.com. This episode came at me as a surprise and kind of a shocker. It wasn't planned, but after a string of emails and a flurry of phone calls, the first week of December, I found myself on a plane headed to Southeast Ohio. Our Secret Agent Man series ended a few weeks ago.

And on that series, we heard about the illustrious and wild career of undercover wildlife agent R. T. Stewart in Ohio. He told us about Operation Redbud, which in the 1990s was the largest turkey poaching sting in U.S. history. You've heard about that a ton. But I learned something about telling old stories. They don't always end where you think they do. Stories continue.

And they always have more than one side. That's all I can say for now. but I really doubt you're going to want to miss this one. June 16th, 1996. A lot of good day. Yeah. It was almost like unbelievable. My name is Clay Newcomb and this is the Bear Greece podcast where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant.

Search for insight in unlikely places and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF gear, American made, purpose-built, hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. So when did you buy this place? I'm going to guess probably a year and a half to two years ago maybe. And it was shut down? No, it was still operating when we bought it. But it didn't look not even on scale it looks like today. It was just needed updated.

Like I said, we owned a pizza shop next door. So actually my father-in-law said, you know what, Claude? He said, well, any day, you said, you ought to buy that bowling alley, too. And I was like, yeah, you've lost your mind, too, you know. So, well, next thing you know, we've come up for sale, so we bought it. And then we bought it, we shut the doors and did a big remodel. I mean, we got it all clear down to the bare, like the bare concrete. That's what was left.

This is my first time to McConnell'sville, Ohio. It's a cute town of about 1,700 people built on the banks of the Muskegum River in the southeast part of the state. McConnell'sville is also where most of the 26 men indicted in Operation Redbud lived. If you've lived in small town America, there are certain people that stand out. They're woven into the fabric of the community and make it thrive. their leaders, well-respected, their contributors, and functional pillars of the community. We've just heard the voice of Claude Maxwell. There was 10 lanes of bowling here, so we tore three out.

So, you know, as you see, we've got the dart boards, pool table over there. You can't see it from here, and big kitchen. So there's a restaurant here? Yes, yes, a very nice restaurant back here also. So back here, there's two virtual Gulf Bays, which will be, I'm sure, a big hit. So McConnellsville is not a big town. So this is going to be like a hub for people to come to, like a real social place. I'm hoping it's going to be a big fit for the McConnellsville people.

And there's a lot of people excited about it because, you know, there's nothing really here for the kids to do. Claude is 60 years old and wears fashionable dark-framed glasses. He drives the late model Chevy Silverado pickup. The back seats are folded up and the floorboard is full of DeWalt tools and construction supplies. When I open the passenger door, he scrambles to clear away work gloves and cabinet hardware still in the packaging. It's clear that Claude has worked hard for everything that he's got. And it's evident he and his family are these kind of standout people. The bowling alley in the pizza place, called Maxwell's Pizza, are side by side overlooking the river.

The pizza place has a rooftop dining area that's been voted as one of the top ten best rooftops in Ohio. Both of these businesses are being spearheaded by Claude's son, Cass, a really sharp and kind fella in his early 30s. Cass was just four years old on Sunday, June 16. 1996. He thought there must have been an early morning party at their house when all the vehicles rushed into their driveway. Not to be outdone by her older brother, Claude's daughter, Adrian, started a cafe in downtown McConnell'sville called the Bluebird Cafe. And I kid you not, they served me the best breakfast I've eaten in the last five years. The place is top-notch. It's become overwhelmingly clear to me that these Maxwells have something special.

And I haven't even told you that Claude runs a sporting goods store called Maxwell's hunting supplies. So we're in McConnell'sville. He's introducing me to a man that we've met on the sidewalk. So this is the guy that does the podcast for, uh, Clay Newcomb. For RT Stewart, you know, the operation right by them? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so we just got done to it.

Did you hear about that, that we did a podcast on that? Yeah, my boy was down in North Carolina's when it told me about it. Oh, is that right? He lost it down there and said, Dad, I thought this just happened. Ron is literally the first person we've met on the street as we walked towards Claude's hunting store. After a slightly awkward moment, I realized that I might. not be the most popular man in McConnell'sville. Not everybody was pumped about some outsider talking about Operation Redbud without hearing the full

story. But I went ahead and asked Ron a pointed question. Yeah, so who do you know Claude Maxwell to be inside this community? He's a great businessman now. I mean, what they've done in this community is outstanding. I mean, with the Bluebell and the bowling alley and the rooftop, you know, pizza shop. I mean, it's just terrific what he's done. I'm proud of the whole family.

They're all good workers. So, I mean, he's like a pillar in this community. Would that be right? Well, I hate to say that. No, no. He really is. The whole family needs to be commended for what they've done here. Yeah, I appreciate it, too.

Yeah, yeah. Sorry to walk up to you on the street and just shove a mic in your face. The McConnellsville Tour continues. We're now in Maxwell's hunting supplies. So we're walking in Maxwell's Hunting and Fishing Supplies Store. I've seen you call me, Gary, but I had... I was going out there. The store is tidy and packed wall to wall and floor to ceiling

with archery targets, deer blinds, and bottles, of dough estrus. Behind the counter is a wall full of guns of all kinds. The middle of the store has hunting clothing and a bow rack. And in the back of the store, you couldn't fit another jig or crankbait on the shelves. We sell Matthews, Hoyt, and the elite. And then, of course, you know, Raven Crossbows, several different crossbow companies we handle. Big selection of fishing equipment. Yes, and we can walk one back through here, but... Yeah, give me the full tour, man.

What I'm about to tell you won't make sense unless you've listened to our Secret Agent Man series. We worked hard in the podcast to hide the identity of the man that we called Target No. 2. This was the guy that R.T. Stewart became very close with. The guy R.T. so badly wanted to tell that he was an undercover agent because he liked him so much.

Well, Claude Maxwell is target number two of Operation Redbud. If you recall, through the undercover work of RT and his partner, they brought charges against 26 men, and these guys were convicted of over 275 wildlife violations. But when you do the math, Claude Maxwell received exactly 26% of those violations. He pleaded guilty to 74. When I first heard about R.T. Stewart and his undercover work, I was interested in highlighting

the work done by the wildlife law enforcement of this country. The freedoms that we have as hunters carry a high price tag, and part of the cost is making sure that the law is followed. RT's openness gave us insight into a hidden layer of law enforcement seldom seen, the world of undercover work. His stories were fascinating. And he was very good at what he did. However, what never occurred to me. What never crossed my mind is how these stories intersected the lives of those that he chased. I never expected to talk to target number two.

To be honest with you, it was almost like he didn't exist. But oh, he does. And he's not who I thought he would be. Here's Claude Maxwell. Well, before this started, before I met the undercover, I worked at a man to drive-through and a bar. I worked there for probably 17 years. Met a lot of people, met a lot of great people. That was basically how I met the undercover agent was where I worked at.

He intentionally came in to meet me. I had met the undercover guy. I mean, I can remember exactly when it was. and well automatically we we hit it off pretty good of course I think he was probably hoping we get hit it off pretty good but yeah we started hanging out and started hunting for mayor I guess I mean I don't know but like you say that's what that's what I'd done for 17 years Claude was in his early 30s in 1995 he was married and had two children he worked as a bartender And it was here that he met Bob Thomas, or at least that's what the man said his name was.

But why was he here to meet Claude? So the Ohio DNR would have had you and their crosshairs. So you were killing turkeys before season, shooting some deer before in and out of season. That's what was going on. I sure did. I tell you, I was out hunting turkeys one morning before season. And I'd probably kill it, I don't know, maybe a couple of birds, I guess, before season that year. And the guy I used to work for at this bar where his son was real good friends with the Game Ward's daughter at high school.

He'd come home, and I'd seen this boy every day. He'd pulled me aside one day. He said, hey, he said, just to let you know that the Game Ward's daughter, which I'm not going to mention her name, had told me that my dad has got the radar on you. So I actually started getting nervous about that. I mean, it wasn't like I was out every day hunting, but, you know, there was days I'd go, you know, a few days in a row. Generally, a couple weeks before season come in,

Turkey for God, I want to be hunting them. So anyhow, one morning I was coming back and I'd been turkey hunting. Actually, I didn't carry a gun that morning because of what this boy had told me about the game warden. Well, he'd definitely done how to his eyes locked on me because we was coming on County Road 3, and I looked at every vehicle that went by me. I mean, I just, I still do today.

I mean, I guess it's just a habit of, you know, wave at people, whatever. Well, that morning, that particular morning, I had passed the game warden. There was two of them, and I knew the local game warden very well. And so I met him. He was in an undercover car, or maybe, even a station wagon. But I remember seeing him.

Oh, so they weren't in their truck? No. Oh, they were in a civilian car. That's right. You recognized the guy. So when I passed him, of course, I freaked out. I was like, wow, he is onto me. So I slowed down.

I was actually going to work that morning. So I drove real slow all the way to town because I was positive. That was him. And he knew when he seen me who I was. I was in camouflage. You know, he knew I was probably out turkey hunting. As I was coming into Malta, which is right across the river here, this vehicle, it finally had caught up with me.

And it was the vehicle that I've been waiting for. You were going slow so he would follow you, so he could catch up with you. Yeah, so he could catch up with me. Yeah. So, and he did catch up with me. So I think he was kind of surprised when he made a turn to come into Malta that he seized my vehicle. And at that time I drove a Shibby Tahoe hatchback. So he sees me.

So he takes a left on the side street. Like I say, I have no weapon in my vehicle. So I take a left at the red light, and I wanted to catch up with him. But the reason he took a left because he's seen me. And he didn't want to make it look obvious. So we pulled up the side street together. He's coming one way, I'm coming the other way.

So I pulls up to him. He rolls his window down. And I asked him, I said, are you looking for me? And he said, no, that's where you just out Trialia. I was pretty sure he's looking for me. He said, no, I was out doing a turkey survey. We were doing turkey surveys. Well, the guy had a pasture seat, he stared a hole through me.

So anyhow, pulling away from the vehicle, I'd seen him smack their staring well. Oh, wow. Because he got busted. Yeah. He knew that I knew that he's out there looking for me. He knew that I knew that he was out there looking for me. Though the words Operation Redbud had never been uttered, the pounding of the steering.

Will was its genesis moment. Perhaps if Claude hadn't spoiled their initial plans by taking that left-hand turn, maybe the local warden would have caught him and slowed him down. And he would have been an average turkey poacher. And we'd never even know who he was. But the what might have beens are long gone, like a cottonwood leaf in the current of the Muskegon River. Fate was set into place.

You told me about meeting Bob Thomas, R.T. Stewart. And you told me about how you probably could have, you were tipped off pretty quick that he was an undercover agent. Can you tell me about that? Yes. Well, when I met R.T. And I can even remember the exact chair he said in when he came in the bar that day. And he ordered a Miller light. That's how good my memory is. So we would, And just in conversation, we got to talk a little bit that day. And he was dressed in camouflage. Right. Tipping off that he was a hunter.

Yeah, sure. So he knew, because he knew who I was, because I didn't know him. I mean, but, you know, R.T., Bob Thomas, whatever. At the time. The first time we spoke, you were calling him Bob. Yeah. I thought that was really interesting. Well, that's what I know.

That's what you know about is Bob. A long time, so I just want to name is Bob. Yeah, yeah. Anyhow, I enjoyed being around Bob. Just that one day. I had a pretty good feel for me. He thought a pretty good fella. But, of course, I'm sure that looking back,

I mean, of course, Bob wanted to be my friend. Yeah. He wanted to know me. I want to guess it was probably a few days later, Ortiz in the store again. A good friend of mine, Kevin, had come in the bar. We had a side door on the side of the bar. A lot of people just come in that side door,

which was the stage. And then you'd come down three steps, and you'd be in the bar. Well, Kevin had come in the door that. I want to say it was around one or two in the afternoon. And Bob or R.T. or whoever was sitting at the edge of the, at the bar there, closest to the stage, Kevin had called him R.T. He said, hey, R.T. You know, he yelled his name a couple times.

And Bob finally looks up at him and said, because I'm talking to Kevin. Bob said, you talk to me? And he said, yeah, ain't you RT Stewart? He said, you must have me mixed up with someone else. He said, well, you look like the game warden and shocked her down on Hocking County. Bob said, oh, I ain't no game warden. And, well, the dry-through bell rang. Usually when they just rang one time, I knew it was somebody walking

because they just stepped on the rubber hose to make the bell ring. Kevin had left, and I thought it was probably him back there. Oh, so he buzzed it for you to come back there. That's right. Wow, so your buddy is, like, wanting a private meeting with you. Yes. Kevin always called me Max. went open a door and he said hey max he said do you know that guy out there at the bar i said

i just made a few days ago he said unless he's got a twin his name's r t stewart and he's a game ward instructor in hawking county so he said this is right at the very beginning yes of what became operation redbud that's right that's exactly right so this guy tells you that's r t stewart he's a game ward yes so he said i'd be careful who you hang out with he said i could be wrong he said it's been a while as I've seen him, but he said, by God, he said it looks like him. So I'd even mention that to my wife, and she said, you know, she was like, because she didn't like me going out spotlighting, shooting deer. She was not for it.

Okay. As a matter of fact, she would get ticked off if I went. Okay. So, and I don't always worry, it's all right, you know, I'll be fine. Anyhow, I went back to the bar and was talking to Bob, and I said, yeah, I said, oh, Kevin thinks she was a game warden. Yeah, and then he went on a big spill about that. He'd say, Game Warden, you know, he just...

Yeah. So, well, that afternoon, I think of that afternoon, Bob had showed me a turkey in the back of his van, a turkey fan that he had fanned out. And you can tell how it was a fresh kill. Yeah. He had the spurs there, and he said he had just killed it. I think he was trying to gain my trust a little bit, okay?

Yeah. Of course, you know, back then I couldn't see past my nose. Because I'm like, what is the odds of a game warden here in a bar? Like an undercover. That wasn't even a thing, was it? No, I mean, like, I think you probably heard about things like that, but I've never thought would ever happen to me, of course. Right.

When he showed me that, I was like, I kind of trust him, but I was like, oh, I don't think maybe Kevin is exactly what he's talking about. Well, then right after that, Bob started wearing yellow lens glasses, sunglasses, and then he grew a full beard. Because when I first met R.T., he was clean. I think he had a mustache, big mustache. Oh. And after that, he'd really.

wrote a huge beard. So he knew he got busted from looking the same. He knew he was going to have to change up a little bit. It's so interesting hearing the different sides of the same story. RT told us about this one too. Claude wouldn't have known it, but RT was scrambling on the inside, but he was also learning, hence the new beard and sunglasses. In our Secret Agent Man podcast, R.T. told many of the

ends and outs of living undercover and becoming close to Claude. They poached turkeys, spotlighted deer, and became the closest of friends. Here's a funny story. We had shot a deer one night. Bob and Don, I don't believe was with us that night, but we'd shot a dog. We're down below my buddy Mike's house, and we're clear down in the woods, and cold, probably six or seven inches of snowing. I mean, we're a clear down in the woods, just so we wouldn't get caught. and pretty soon Bob and Don snuck up on us.

Of course, we were all good friends then. You know, everybody knows everybody. And he got up and snuck up on us and said, Game warden boys. And we was freaking out. Because I thought it was a game warden. Well, little of you know, it was a game warden. Wow, wow.

But, man, he told that story a few times that, man, he would laugh. Looking back, Claude says the signs were everywhere that his relationship with Bob Thomas was suspect. However, this type of undercover work was entirely new, and Claude was like a deer in the headlights, especially when the relationship came crashing down. For Claude, it was the surprise of his life, one that would change it forever. So, RT talked about how he said he was closer to you than probably he was anybody he ever worked. Yeah. Which was interesting.

And part of what we talked about was what was it like to be turned. in by somebody you really thought was your friend. Yeah, that was probably the worst thing that had probably ever happened to me, to be honest with you. You know, we hung out for a long time together, and I think basically about every day. I mean, there might have been a day or two that we didn't hang out, but for the most part, we used together, me and him and Dawn a lot. Yeah. So when that morning, seven o'clock at a morning, you know, they hit everybody at seven o'clock in the morning.

All the guys that were involved. In the sting. Yeah. Well, I remember being in bed that morning, and we've been up late night. I guess my place was party central. That's where everybody come to, and we just hang out and have a good time. But anyhow, the morning that happened, I kept hearing all this pounding on my house. I thought I was dreaming.

Because, you know, it's summertime, and my wife finally gets me up and said, you better look outside because you're a big trouble. That's exactly what she told me. So I jumped up out of bed. Of course, I got long hair then, and as a matter of fact, I had orange shorts on it look like I was getting ready to go, Joe. So I'd looked outside and I'd seen all these wildlife officers and and- How many trucks were there? Wow, you know, honestly, I think there must have been, gee, my best recollection probably 15.

Are you 15 vehicles pulled up to your house? Yeah, there's Crown Victoria's and there's game warden trucks, A1 towing. Columbus News, Times Recorder, which is our local news. Oh, wow. So they pulled up with a tow truck to tow your vehicle away. Yes, yeah. And the media was there? Oh, yeah.

They were going to film them pulling you out of your house. Yes. And they did. Yes. Wow. So you answer the door. Yeah. Time I got my bearings together.

What in the world? You know, I'm thinking, what's going on? Did it even occur to you that this is because of killing turkeys illegally? I mean, you're just like, what? I said, what's June 16th? I mean, it's summertime. It's like, why's all these game wardens here? Yeah.

So I couldn't figure out exactly what was going on. And they're yelling. I mean, these people are yelling, open the door, or we're busting the door in. Yeah. So I ran to the front door and opened the door. And when I did, they pulled me out of the door and wanted to know if I had any loaded firearms in my house

and they read my rights. And I still couldn't figure out. They didn't tell me. Bob and Don or whatever. Right, right. So it almost seemed like a dream really, looking out there and seeing all these game warden vehicles. And I think our local game warden,

he was probably a second guy through my front door. The guy you saw in the station wagon following you. Yes, yes. And like you say, he still comes in my store this day. I mean, I have no bitter feelings. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. He's doing his job.

I find Claude's ability to move beyond the past to be unusually developed, kind of like when you watch a fisherman skilled with a knife fillet a fish. What they're doing is very difficult, but it looks easy. I'd say Claude's position is rare. Here's Claude with more. After they read my rights, we go back inside the house, and my phone's ringing off the hook, as you imagine. Well, back in them days, you know, you had the answer machines. So good buddy, my Mike, and we're still good buddies this day. He's probably my best friend.

His wife calls me. The game ward just left there. Left his house. Yeah. Did they get him? Yeah. But they didn't have much on him. I mean, he didn't.

He wasn't out with me, per se, that every day, like, why, when I was going out. But his wife was in panic mode. She said, Claude, if you're there, answer the phone. She said, the game warden just left my house. She said, and I think they're on their way to yours. And they would not let me hear you. You're hearing this message as they're arresting. Everybody's right there.

All the game words right there and listen to everything. Say, if you have any illegal deer meat or turkeys in, you better to get them out. Oh, wow. Yachty, yoddy. And I was like, ah, really, Jenny? I said, can you shut up now? You know what I mean? But, yeah, of course, he was just trying to do me a favor.

If you remember, R.T. told us this exact same thing from the law enforcement side. In the intro, I said that Claude's son Cass was four years old in 1996. Here's the story Claude loves to tell, and we're back in the bowling alley with Cass. They all come down on me, so we're outside. And I say, it's June, warm out. And my son had said, look, one of the wildlife officers who said, look at that cronad hole right there. And game works, said, I don't think that's a cronadthole.

So he was there when the wildlife officers were searching your house. And he was like three years old. Four. So Cass said, yeah, he said, there's a crawledad in that hole there. Wild officer. He said, I don't think there's a crawled owl, bud. And he said, oh, yeah, it is. He determined he's going to show him.

So he went and got his mom's bucket that she watered flowers in. And he took the spout off of it. I was pouring water right into that hole. took it and filled it clear up nothing come out of yet so he went back and fills it back up pores her in there again waits there pretty soon

this great big crawldad comes out of this whole he jumped up and down he said I told you I told you I told it so this was a technique you knew would work get the crawledats out yeah which the pond went too far it was like I mean it's low ways actually so you remember when this happened

so you have memories of of the law coming to your house to get your dad. What was going on? Yeah, I thought it was a fun day. I don't know. I thought all these people were here, we're gonna have a good time. Let me teach you how to catch a crowd out, big guy.

Come here, man. I didn't realize the severity. I didn't know. Dad had to make game warden friends. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of friends. Yeah. Now that's a good story.

They didn't teach those game wardens about crawdads. And hey, not to digress, but Cass called it a crawdad and not a crawdad. prey fish, which indicates to me that Ohio might actually be southern. Louisiana is exempt. They call them crawfish down there. And another thing, Claude called it spotlighting, not jacklighting. Because nobody from the South ever called spotlighting a deer jacklighting.

On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a head. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness. and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person.

He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about something that matters. And I'll tell you what matters is wives. Wives usually have a strong intuition,

especially when it comes to their husband's friends. If you want to talk about wit and instinct, a wife is often like a lightning rod for this kind of stuff. But oddly, Misty has always really liked Brent Reeves. Anyway, here's Claude talking about how he still didn't really know why the law was at his house. And even then, I still, I'm rocking my brain. It's like, I don't know what's going on.

I mean, no one's really told me anything. So I go outside and they're at my house for hours. At that time, I was remodeling my house. Just doing a little remodeling. I mean, I didn't have any money. I was just trying to make the place look a little nicer than what it was. So when my wife had come outside when I was sitting on the, I think had a bench out there in front of my poor chair,

I was sitting on it. I was bummed, as you can imagine. Does they have you handcuffed or anything? No. So they knew you weren't going to run off? No, I mean... They had you. Yeah, of course. I don't know what they had me for because I didn't know. And they're searching your house. Oh, yeah. They're tearing apart. I mean, every inch ever.

So my wife's comes out the front door and she whispered in the ear, and she said, Bob and Don, I bet you. And I looked at her like, she was crazy. I said, no, she said, I bet it is. She said, you thought you guys were friends. Wow, so she sniffed it out. Yeah, which, you know, she never did. Even when it was going on, she was always, oh, because RT would call me quite a bit.

And I think if he was really being honest with himself, he could tell you that, that Bob would call me a lot. Say, hey, you want to go out tonight? You know, and it would really tick my wife off. she was like, you know, Clyde, you're going to get yourself in trouble. Wives know. They just always know. So I guess when that all happened,

when I finally did figure out, I think one of the officers, he handed me all my charges, all these papers. I'm like, huh? Them are all mine, huh? Because there was a bunch. What did it, how did it read?

Well, on the front of it, it was all written up from the court. Yeah. Send all these charges. You know, it's like pages and pages. I mean, it looked like a catalog, you know what I mean? And I said, I looked at him. I said, them's all mine?

He said, yep, them's all yours. And then the one officer asked me if I knew about Thomas. So when he said that, I was like, okay. That was my friend that just got me right there. This was a tough moment for Claude. I don't know that I'll ever know, or at least I hope I never do. What it feels like for someone you thought was your friend to actually not be. And what makes this so wildly interesting is that RT, even 30 years later, still has mixed feelings about it.

And we know we can't blame RT. He was just doing his job. He was defending the law. I just think it's interesting to look at it from the other side. And this goes back to our original commentary on what a weird human experience, an experiment that undercover work is. You know, and at that time when that happened, like I say, I'm early 30s,

and I just felt like someone kicked me right in the teeth. I mean, kick the legs right out from under me. So here's this guy that I thought with my friend, that we did a lot together and had a lot of fun together. It had a, I mean, it's hard to say a real friendship, but you said to me earlier that you can't fake the kind of... Oh, absolutely not. And I feel like that's what RT told me when I sat across from him.

Yeah. Because he said, man, he said, Claude was a good guy. He said any other situation, we probably would have been really best friends. Yeah. We had a lot of fun together. I mean, we really did. I mean, just, like I say, there's some stuff you can't fake. I mean, there's times that I can remember leaving looking back.

RT would, you know, he'd be laughing. hard, you know, tears be coming out of his eyes. I mean, that, that was on a lot of different occasions. Yeah. Getting back to that question, you know, I was so depressed to think that that happened to me, you know, it was like, I couldn't get over for a long time to think that that he'd done that to me. And I almost wanted revenge, you know, and, and, uh, I almost wanted revenge, you know. And, uh, But, you know, he was doing his job. That's what he gets paid to do.

That's how I look at it now, looking back at it. I mean, he's there to do his job, and he did his job. But for me, it was just, it was not real. I mean, that it actually happened to me. I mean, you can ask my wife, and at them times, for a first two or three weeks, I didn't want to be here. I didn't, you know, I just didn't, I was in a real bad place. It was a dark time for you, you told me.

It was. Yeah, and then I just didn't know if I could pull out of it. I mean, it's for the audience that's listening right now, unless you're there, you know, you can't have that feeling unless you know, unless this actually happened to you. But with that said, I brought it all myself. It wasn't like to anybody twists my arm to make me do what I'd done. From the very beginning, I appreciated Claude's honesty about this whole situation, but also how he takes full responsibility. responsibility for it. You'll never hear him blame anyone else. And that's rare. Human nature in its wild pursuit to justify its own action often relieves its burden by shifting blame, but not

Claude Maxwell. You remember me saying I wasn't the most popular guy in McConnell'sville after bringing Operation Redbud to the national stage after 30 years of it being not there. I'm pretty sure much of the town believes that this sting was heavy-handed that in parts of the operation these guys were entrapped. I'm just reporting what I heard on the streets of McConnell'sville, not from Claude. But even if it was heavy-handed, the operation was valuable. Let me cast a metaphor into the river of your mind. To the caribou herd as a whole, the lone animal that gets eaten by the wolf is lost.

but impacts them more than the living. Its death changes the life of the whole herd. They adapt. They reroute. They become stronger. The wolf makes the caribou strong. In this metaphor, the undercover work is the wolf. And by picking some of the stragglers off, in a sense, it purifies and strengthens the whole herd,

which the whole herd would be in the hunting community. though you and me weren't suspects in Operation Redbud, it has impacted our life. You know, if you're a hunter. The herd knows. Are you with me? This type of law enforcement is necessary for our system of wildlife management to be successful. And we'll see that getting caught by the wolf can change your life for the better.

Isaac, that was probably way too deep of a metaphor. I don't know if people are going to get it. Oh, we're recording. here's Claude. What were you actually charged for and what was the punishment for it? Well, I know you can't cite all 74 wildlife violations. Yes, that's how I mean I had 74. I think most of the fines of the citations I got, out of 74 of them, you know, a lot of them were, you know, you might have been hunting without Hunter Orange or maybe I'm just trying to think of some of the crazy charges that I had that they wouldn't,

It wasn't serious charges. Okay, I see. You know what I'm saying? They were just, they were trying to get you for every single possible thing. Yeah, and I think he did. How many actual convictions of killing illegal game of the 74?

You know, I used to have that big pamphlet. I think I throw it away because I wanted to wish every memory away of that day. I think I had got charged for killing seven turkeys or maybe eight turkeys. And seven or eight deer. that 18 months of whatever it was that we hung out. So did you go to jail? Well, no. I remember being in court. So they didn't, with 15 wildlife officers there, or 15 vehicles, they didn't

handcuff you and take you to jail? No, no. Now, if I had to cooperate, yes, I'd been on my way of jail. So it was mainly fines, and then they revoked your Ohio hunting license for life. Yes. Yeah. How much in fines, can I ask you that? How much in, how much in fines? Can I ask you that? How much in fines did you have to pay? $11,000. $11,000. Yeah, actually, the craziest this is, when I'd hired this attorney out of Lancaster, Ohio,

but anyhow, he'd come down and represented to me. Basically, we're just going to do a plea bargain, okay? I'm guilty of this many charges. I think I end up, I think I was guilty of like 70 of them, probably. I mean, I was guilty of all of them. Everything that RT honestly got me for, I was guilty of. Even back then, that was your position. Just like, I'm guilty.

I'm just going to do the time. Basically, because my attorney had looked over the films and things. He said, boy, they really got you, Claude. And I said, I know that. So all we can do right now is go to court and make the best of it. I'm trying to think. It gave me this big fine. And he turns to me in the worst of my ear and said,

it's going to do, no, he's going to give me six months in jail and $11,000 fine. So he whispered down my ear and he said, that's not too bad, Claude. He said, if I was you, I'd take that plea. I said, I'm not doing six months in jail. He looks at me, he said, really? I said, yeah, really. So he gets up and says, he makes a plea to the court, you know,

and said, you know, Claude's got two little kids. Can you show you some way and see? So the judge thinks about it for a second. He comes back and says, yeah, they're going to give me six months house arrest. So I got to wear a leg bracelet for six months. Was that a stiff enough penalty, do you think? Like if you were just looking at this from the outside, you knew what you were doing and, like, in your life, what would have?

Because, I mean, all these punitive penalties that the court systems would enact would ultimately be designed to get people on the right track. I mean, say whatever somebody wanted. I mean, was it stiff enough? Was it too stiff? Well, looking back, I get you. I thought it was almost too stiff. And let me tell you why. Because I wasn't making no money whatsoever then.

I mean, I was at bar. That might as well have been 100,000. Yeah, of course. I mean, I was like, how in the world am I ever going to pay $11,000 fine off? I mean, I don't have that kind of money. I didn't, I didn't then. Was that, was that helpful to you in the process of being reformed? I think it was.

I mean. Because, you know, and I'm not saying this to talk specifically about you, but people all over the country talk about how wildlife violators get off too easy. Yeah. I mean, really, like some of this stuff going on, because it's not narcotics or some kind of abuse, you know, like human abuse or violence or when these things go to court, a lot of times judges have compassion on this guy or leniency. Yeah. And then, but in the wildlife space, it can upset people. Yeah, sure. Because, you know, as a culture, we value wildlife.

Oh, yeah. We value being able to go and hunt, and we have this thing in North America that's really unique to the world and that guys like me and you can go hunt deer and hunt turkey. I mean, this is unusual. Yes. What do you think about that? I mean, do you think judges should do what they did to you? Yeah. I mean, you know, listen, I probably had everything that come to me is, you know, what I got, I had coming to me.

I probably needed to stop. I mean, I was, I want to say, out of control. I was, it was not right by no means. And so what I got coming to me. And with RT, he did his job, him, Dawn did. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have done way done because that's what he was there to do. On this side, it's easy to say

the poachers got what they deserved and leave feeling good about the steaming hot plate of justice they got served, which is an entirely justifiable position that most of us have, almost all the time. And I'm not trying to make us soft on criminals and act like they're the victims. But what I am saying is that every situation has two sides worth thinking about. I want to ask Claude about re-entering his life after the conviction. You just, you felt just kind of the social shame of what happened. I mean, you were embarrassed by it.

You were like, what were the feelings going on? Yeah, I mean, I was. because people, like say, the people that didn't know me, it was about to find out the things that I'd done. So, you know, the majority of those people that I worked around had no clue, you know, spotlighting, turkey hunting, whatever. But, you know, even then when I was doing it, I never even thought it was that big a deal, I guess.

Now today, I mean, looking back, it was a big deal. I mean, you're breaking a law. I mean, that's just, it's not, it's not just forced my thing to do. Yeah. So, yeah, it was, it was really hard going back to work. I didn't want to go back to work. I wanted to quit because I didn't want to see nobody. I didn't want to be around nobody because I knew, I knew what was going to take place.

I mean, it never ended for months. People wanting to know the story and people criticizing me for who, for what I'd done. And then there's people that, you know, that stood beside me too, you know. You got to have a little bit of support. Something like that happens to you. It was bad times. I've talented you. How did you recover from it?

I mean, because really, your story is so unusual that you would be in that position when you're 30. And then now you're 60. And like I said, I feel like I'm sitting across from an intact man. And not just because of your business success. That's not what I'm talking about. Just your family's intact. And I don't know your son's well. but I've met one of them, and I just, it's unusual.

Great kid. I mean, he's, I honestly think if I hadn't had a family then, my wife was really supportive of me, and she always has been, probably the greatest woman I know. But yeah, so having a big family like I had, just my brothers and sisters, and just for my family, and then not to mention Heidi's family, I mean, all of her family were super close, you know,

were they all supported you through this oh yeah absolutely they didn't no disown you no i remember her dad telling me one day i think it might have been two or three days after it all come down but i remember being on the couch i don't think i got off the couch for a week i mean i was that bummed i mean i just didn't want to talk to nobody well he he'd come out and i just told his son the story the other day but i said i can remember being really depressed so the good guy that her dad is he tried to make make things better for me. He said, well, Claudi said, you know, you're only up from here. You can only go up from here.

He said, you just, you got to pull yourself together and make the best of it. He said, we all love you. He said, you know, just, you made a few mistakes and ain't we all? I might have said, yeah, or whatever, but I didn't want to talk to nobody. And as you can imagine how many times my phone would ring a day. People wanting to know, or I just, I just never took a phone call. I just, but I knew at some point, you know, I'm going to have to go back to work. And if it wasn't for the fact of having a wife and a four-year-old son and then my daughter, Adrian, and she was just born, I probably wouldn't have back to work.

I probably would have quit and started a new life somewhere or maybe wouldn't even make it that far. You know what I mean? Because I was not in a good place then. By every indicator possible to gauge a human, Claude was at the very bottom. But as painful as it is to be there, Claude's first. father-in-law was right. The only place to go is up. And being at the bottom is often necessary to get people going in the right direction. The bottom isn't always bad. Part of Claude's conviction was a lifetime suspension of his Ohio hunting license. That's a hard slap for a man whose blood

runs thick with the love of wild places and beasts. Even being someone who was abusing the law, He was fueled by the same mysterious draft that has caught so many of us. After seven years, Claude was advised to go to the county judge and ask for the punishment to be revisited. And to his surprise, the paperwork on the revocation of his license was never completed, and he was actually eligible to buy his Ohio license. Anyhow, he told me I could, you're good to go get your license. Wow. Which I don't think at the time our local game warden was very happy about that.

Yeah. But from that day on, I did things right. I got to get myself on the right track here. Yeah. Because, you know, even taking my son hunting and stuff, you know, I took my son hunting a lot. I tried to teach him right. Yeah. And he does things right.

You know what I mean? Yeah. He's a good kid. But anyhow, yeah, there's a son hunting. That's a big transition. I mean, you kind of make it sound simple, and I realize it's... It wasn't really simple. Let's be honest.

Even though I did get my license back, I said, man, I sure miss them days of just going out there having fun. But I knew better, you know, and I never did. I never went out early turkey hunting, early deer hunting, nothing, squirrel hunting. I mean, from that day on, I just, you know, I went by the rules. That's just how... You know, if it's one turkey season, that's what I killed one turkey. And if it's one deer, it's one deer. I just, it's just looking back of how I was then.

I mean, I was a little out of control, but it feels good to be on the right path. I mean, it's way better. You know, it's, it makes you a better person. Yeah. It really does. Well, it sounds like there was, it was a broader, and I'm speculating, but I'm speculating off pretty hard evidence that I have, not knowing you well, but seeing what you've done inside this community and just talking with you here face to face,

is that, I mean, it sounds like your life took a turn for the better in a whole lot of places. Yeah. I mean, because somebody that's partying and wild and disregarding game laws is not going to be able to do what you've done because you, I mean, you have a very successful outdoor store here in McConnellsville. You opened up this bowling alley. you've got multiple, I mean, you're a successful guy. And when I meet your family, your family is intact, which in today's world is a big deal. Yeah, sure. I mean, to have kids that respect you.

Yep. I have a great family. I'm very fortunate. I mean, it sounds like you, a lot changed probably from those days. Am I right? Oh, yeah, it has. I mean, a lot has changed, which is really hard to believe that even looking back that all my life, you know, how much things have changed for me. I mean, I think when you do right, people will notice it.

We do a lot for our community. I mean, we really do. I say no to nobody, you know what I mean? If someone comes in, wants a donation for whatever it might be, you know, it might be a family member sick, or we just help out. We do. I mean, that's what we are. But quite a far cry from what I used to be.

Not that I was, I never looked at myself as a horrible person. You know what I mean? When I was growing up. I mean, I had a great family. When I had eight brothers and sisters, you know. Where are you at in the birth order? Next to the youngest. Next to the youngest.

Yeah. Yeah, my mom and dad were great people, all my brothers and sisters. I mean, and we're all tight-knit. I mean, we're, of course, none of my family looked down on me from what I had done. I mean, because, you know, blood's thicker and water. But, you know, they realized I'd done wrong. I was in a good place in my world at that time. Yeah.

Especially after 1996 when the Thursday of, June 16th in 1996. A lot of good day. Yeah. That's when all the OD&R was at my house. It was almost like unbelievable. Man, you've gained my respect and that you were willing to talk to me. I mean, I think it takes a lot of guts for you just to even just talk about it,

which you didn't ask for anybody to bring this all back up. Right. You know, and you didn't ask for me to come up here and talk to you. Right. I asked. Yeah, I was listening to you. your podcast with RT, and then that's, uh, and that's when, uh, so somebody, somebody sent you the bear grease podcast and said, Claude, you got, you got to listen to this. Yes. Yes. What did you

think when you heard us talking about Operation Redbud? Well, I was kind of, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was set back in a minute, I ain't going to lie. It was like, uh, dang, I said, uh, been that many years and they're still talking about me. And, and, uh, and I thought, were you relieved when we bleeped your name out? I was. I mean, I mean, Yeah, I mean, because there wasn't really no need in using my name, I guess. I mean, I think everybody knows anything about Operation Red Bud knows who was involved. Regionally. And that's what I found out.

Again, this is new stuff to me just in the last couple of months. I would have never heard of this. I think regionally, Operation Red Bud is real well known. Oh, yeah, sure. But nationally, maybe not. And I've shared this with you privately, is that when I did this, like I know. never really thought about the repercussions of it. And that's part of the reason I wanted to come to you today. Because, I mean, you're the guy we were talking about, yeah, we bleeped out your name,

but still part of the story. Yeah, sure. Was you. And then it never occurred to me that, because really we were trying to highlight like wildlife agents and law enforcement. And so for that, I guess I, in a way, apologize to, I'm not upset that I did the story. I mean, I'm not. But it probably brought something into your life that you weren't asking for by people coming and saying, hey, look at this. I was a little hesitant to do this podcast today. I mean, my son's one. I said, no, Dad, you need to do it.

You need just to do it. He said, I think it'll do some good. And even last night, I was kind of up and down all night, think about it. and of maybe what to say or even how to say it, I guess. But I don't know. Honestly, I think it's made me a better person. I mean, not this podcast, but just a better person than what I used to be. I mean, heck, who knows if this hadn't happened to be 30 years ago.

Who knows where I'd be? It was almost unbelievable, Claude said. You get the feeling that it's hard for him to look back and believe that this actually happened, especially when you look at how successful his life has been since them. This story is about the stereotypes that we all have at different times about people that are sometimes just wrong. It's a story of how people can change and be different.

It's a story about how some actions don't always lead to the outcomes we think they will. But at its core, at a moment, more philosophical level. I think this story is about repentance and forgiveness. These words are fundamental to the human experience. Repentance is ultimately taking responsibility for your actions and making changes so the bad stuff doesn't happen again. Forgiveness is in essence forgetting an offense.

Humans crave these things. We want people who've done wrong to be sorry and punitive justice. can be part of that repentance. And when we do wrong, we deeply want people to forgive us. When I was in my early 20s, I had a moment of clarity of what forgiveness was. I had had a wretched nightmare. One of those where you've done something terrible and unbearable stress is caving in around you. In the dream, I had stolen a car and was running from the police.

I deeply regretted what I'd done, but it was too late. I couldn't undo it. The tension of the dream grew to such height that my resting state was unable to contain it, and I awoke in a burst of consciousness. The feelings of regret and consequence lingered into reality, until after a few moments of looking around, I realized that I was in my bed. I actually hadn't stolen the car.

It was only a dream. A gush of relief poured over me like cool water. I felt as if my life had restarted. In that moment, a thought walked across my mind that I would never forget. And the thought was, this is what true forgiveness is like. It's like a dream that never actually happened. It was powerful. And the implication of that was, what if I could deliver that kind of forgiveness?

to the people in my life who'd done me wrong? And what if I could receive that kind of forgiveness for the stuff and the people that I had wronged? As humans, we have a powerful tool at our disposal that apes and mules don't have the luxurious option of dispensing or receiving. And that tool is a choice that we have to extend a functional forgiveness to others and to receive forgiveness. I think our society could use a refresher on how to use the powerful human tools of repentance and forgiveness rather than living with bitterness and shame. That's not being soft on crime. That's being strong on cure. I'd like to extend a genuine bear grease hat tip to Claude Maxwell

and to RT Stewart. It took a lot of guts for both of these guys to tell their story. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease. We're putting all we have into these stories, and I deeply value every person that I have the opportunity to interview. And I deeply value every one of you guys that engage so deeply into these stories. I thank you for your support of our podcast. And you can help us by sharing this.

this podcast with your family and friends and leaving us a review on iTunes. And you can follow me on social media at Clay underscore Newcomb. Instagram is my main platform, but I'm also on the TikTok with all the kids, hipsters, and data snatchers. Maybe they'll snatch up this story. Who knows? Have a great week, and I look forward to discussing this story with everybody on next week's Render.

Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I, collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right?

that's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelps Game Calls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers

who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.