Bedros Keuilian Podcast Show - 178. Leading a Movement and Taking Risks

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

In today's Inside Look episode, Bedros speaks with Ryan Michler, founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement that has reached millions of listeners worldwide. He is a husband, father, businessman, Iraqi Combat Veteran, and Author of Sovereignty: The Battle for the Hearts and Minds of Men.  Ryan has made it his life's mission to help men worldwide live up to their full potential in 3 critical pillars of masculinity: Protector, Provider, and Presider.  In this must-listen episode, Bedros gets to the core of what drives Ryan, the business behind Order of Man, his strategy for reaching millions of listeners, ways to monetize a growing podcast, and so much more.  Here's what you don't want to miss: 2:05 Starting a podcast in a saturated market and how his financial background helped find his break-through-method. 6:44 The moment Ryan shifted gears from a financial advisor into podcasting full-time and the risk of walking away from residual income. 9:41 Launching the first Order of Man product and how to create a fast outcome by simplifying the speed of implementation  13:03 The importance of authority and excelling the brand's credibility by adding a second weekly show 15:00 Ryan's methodology for reaching out to potential guests and his formula for releasing episodes 18:17 The importance of cutting your teeth with a B-level guest, building confidence, finding your voice, and getting into a rhythm  19:00 The specific strategy Ryan used to grow his podcast following and build community by cross-pollinating his marketing efforts 22:26 How to position yourself to potential guests by placing yourself between their pain-points and a solution 25:00 Selling products that align with your mission to avoid being disingenuous and build confidence with apparel 26:15 Ryan's paid-for mastermind, the Iron Council, and recommendations to start your service-based program 31:55 Ryan breaks down a real-world scenario that you can apply today and immediately add value to your clients  37:22 Ryan's past struggles of being a husband and father that lead to the origination of Order of Man 38:43 The importance of being hyper consistent and giving yourself time to mature as a subject matter expert  42:41 Why men lack confidence and the ability to lead their families in today's society  Connect with Ryan Michler: https://www.orderofman.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ryanmichler/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/orderofman YouTube

These are the pillars in my mind of masculinity, somebody who's capable of protecting, providing, and presiding for themselves, and for the people under their care. And if you're doing that, you're on the path to becoming a man. Hey, friends, welcome to the Empire Show. My name is Bedros Kulian. This is another inside look, which means we've got an awesome guest here. My dear friend, Ryan Mickler, from Order of Man, and someone who is absolutely leading the charge on a movement. Ryan, welcome to the show.

Honored to be here. What a privilege. So we've spent the last two days together now, which is pretty neat. We have known each other through social media and talked, but we're meeting in person. Right. And I wanted to really create this opportunity for my audience to get to know you better in a different way. Sure. Guys and gals, if you don't know Ryan, you're going to want to start following him, number one,

and really get on board with his podcast, men, because the big missing golden thread in our society right now is how do men become men? this man is leading the charge on that. So with that said, we want to talk about a different part of Ryan Mickler, which is this amazing podcast that you've built and launched in a world where there's a massive saturation of podcasts. Yes, there is. And you've gotten to the top in a very relatively short time, six years?

Yeah, just under six years now. In March, will be my six-year anniversary in starting this thing. So what we're going to do on this whole inside look is we want to take an inside look into your business, how you run your business, why you designed it the way you did, what are your income streams so that the audience who is interested in running it, if you're going to launch a podcast, might as well launch it the right way and what are the ways you can monetize it?

Sure. How is it that you find your guests and all that stuff? So let's start doing the deep dive. First and foremost, why did you even decide to start a podcast when there's so many already? I thought, you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts. enjoyed what I heard. I did some audio for my financial planning practice, and I realized that when I sent a CD with a potential prospect, that my conversion rates started to go up. So I would give these people a CD, and I'd say, listen to this, and then when you're done listening to it,

let's set up an appointment. It was an audio CD. It was an audio CD. What was on the CD? And it was just basically my introductory presentation. Got it. So I made a bunch of CDs. I went to Staples, and I got the things that you could print them on and took some professional pictures, slapped them on the CDs, printed them at home, and I'd give these to people, and they'd come in, and my conversion rates went through the roof because the people that met with me already went through the first thing, and they decided they already want to work with me. Gotcha. I'm going to stop you right there, and this is what we do at The Empire Show. I kind of break the fourth wall here and explain what's happening. So, we're going to do a deep dive into that. In that time, in that era where you

were creating the CDs and sending it out to prospects, and you figured out that, holy crap, my conversions just went up. Right. what was the standard practice with financial planners with their, was it just a call? The way that I learned is, hey, will you sit down with me for 10 to 15 minutes and I'd like to share with you what I do and how I might be able to help? And so the first time, cold or warm if you knew who that individual was or even a reference or something like that, a referral. So I'd sit down with these individuals and I'd take 30, 45 minutes and, you know, my conversion rates were what they were, but I was wasting all of this time talking with people who may not even be reminded. I'm totally interested. So I was wasting their time.

I was wasting my time. And I decided, I'm going to put this first pitch, if you will, on a CD, and then they can decide, and then I'll only meet with people who have gone through that filter first. Brilliant. So guys and gals, you've heard this before from Jesse Isler on this show. And once again, from Dean Graciosi, show up different and have a way to scale. So if you were going to, let's say, get in front of 20 people, you couldn't get in front of 20 people today because there's only one of you and not enough time.

Exactly. Right? But one, you show up different with the CD. You take your presentation. You're like, I don't know who the person is. I don't know if they're going to be qualified. I don't know if they're going to know like and trust me. But I'm going to put my presentation that I do in person on a CD along with some pictures and send it. I can send it out to 20 people a day. 30 people, 100 people. Sure. And as Jesse Isser says, you show up different with his whole story is about the be a different brownie on the shelf and you can charge whatever you want and do whatever you want. And of course, Dean says when you find something that works, can you scale it? That's a very scalable strategy. I'm curious, how did you learn that strategy to show up different and also to create scalability? Or was it out of necessity? It was partly out of necessity because I was really, really struggling. And I was burning the midnight oil with trying to meet with enough people and trying to improve conversion rates. So I'm like, how do I do this better?

So it was that. And then also I read a book called The Selling Chronicles, which is specifically geared towards the financial services industry. And they said, stop selling, stop promoting, stop trying to talk to people who may not actually be interested in what you're doing. And so that all came together and caused me to do that. And then I scaled it further with a podcast. So I thought, well, this works, CDs work. So podcasts were starting to come online.

So I said, well, I'll just start a podcast. So my first podcast was not what I'm doing today. Get out of here. So your first podcast was in the financial planning world. And I thought to myself, there's no, I was working with medical professionals at the time. And I thought, there's no doctor, educated, intelligent doctor who's going to listen to me on a podcast and then want to get my services, my financial services. I get a call from a pediatric physician from Pennsylvania. I only remember that because three piece.

Pediatric physician from Pennsylvania. Yeah. And he says, he calls me up. He's like, hey, I want disability insurance. And he lists out all the features he needs in disability insurance. Nobody knows anything about disability insurance unless you sell disability insurance. Everybody else needs to be educated on it to know anything about it. So this was rare that this guy knew what he wanted.

I said, you're obviously shopping around or you're familiar with disability insurance. Like, how do you know so much about what you want? And he said this, and I'll never forget it. It changed my life. He said, oh, I just listened to your podcast on disability insurance and wrote down everything you told me I needed. You just educated the market without even being there. That's right. And so he became a client of mine, and it was a light bulb moment for me, and that's when I realized podcasting is where it's out.

Brilliant. So at what point did you decide to shift gears and I guess leave a career that probably paid well? Yeah, really well. Financial planning. And residual income that I was walking with as well. Yeah. And to make that leap because so many people have careers or maybe they've started businesses that they can't or feel that they're locked into with a business partner or because of debt that they have. Yeah. How and why did you make that leap into doing Order of Man podcast? So I realized that I really enjoyed the podcasting medium, but I wanted to have different conversations. I didn't want to have the conversation it had since over a nine-year period. It was meaningful, significant, but different, you know? So I started the Order of Man podcast and immediately loved it.

And I gradually transitioned from doing financial planning to Order Man consuming more and more of my time. And then my wife one day came to me and said, hey, this is good. You're doing this. But how are you going to make money doing this? because you're taking away from the financial planning practice, household income's going down. You're fulfilled, but you're not making any money, so what are we going to do?

Now, were you aware of at that point that household income is going down, but I am having this sense of fulfillment? Yeah, I knew that. Fortunately, the residual income, you know, provided for a way of life. So even if I didn't, you know, technically show up, we still had the income coming in. And then I remember I had a client reach out to me, and I got my phone, and I looked at my phone,

and I saw who it was, and I went. And it wasn't. about that client, it was, I did not want to have this conversation. And so I realized, man, I'm just doing my clients. I was a fiduciary. I have a responsibility. And I'm not doing that many services. So I need to sell this practice. Okay. So at that point, you sold your practice, I'm guessing. Yes. And you went all in on order of man. Yeah. I'd been doing order of man for about two years, I believe, before I sold my financial planning practice roughly. And at that point, was order of man generating any revenue? It was, I would say probably, without having the exact numbers,

it was probably around 1,500 to 2,000 a month as all. Okay, so no one to write home to. No, maybe, maybe in the sustainable. This is, I had, so I had the luxury of the business that I sold that provided the financial support until I ramp that up to where it needed to be. Got it, yes. So another lesson here, guys, and the lesson is this, that, as Craig Ballantyne calls it, your Friday night project, right? You've got your main gig. It's provided. your revenue and your income for your family. But Friday night, you could either choose to go to the bars and hang out or Netflix and chill or whatever people do these days,

or you can spend two, three, four hours of meaningful time really diving into what your passion project is. And in that two years, sure, $1,500 a month, maybe you can get a two-bedroom apartment in the slums of Tennessee. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. But... You'd be hungry. Right. You wouldn't have anywhere to get anywhere. That is true, too.

But that was the spark of, man, if I'm making $1,500, Why can't I make 15,000 and 150,000, et cetera? Just like you said earlier with the scalability, I remember the first thing that we launched. The first product that we launched was a 12-man membership course, and it was over a 12-week period of time. I said, I'm going to teach you guys six different topics. We're going to focus on one topic for two weeks before we move on to the other. We're going to have a Facebook group, and we're going to have phone calls where we get together and discuss these things. And I had 12 guys sign up immediately.

I charged 100 bucks for it. So I'm way undercharged. Sure. Filled it up immediately. Did you spend, you know, weeks and months writing sales copy? You could run Facebook ads? No, I didn't do any of that. I had maybe a thousand people in our Facebook group at the time.

And I had nothing written. I had a little sales funnel that basically was just put your credit card information here. I love that. And then I just promote it to my Facebook group and on the podcast. And I said, hey, I'm launching this thing. It's open. go put in your credit card information. I still have the email from the first person who signed up.

He's still a friend of mine and we're in contact. In fact, he's still in the Iron Council. Oh, wow. And the email says... Is he the first member by chance of the Iron Council? The very first member. No kidding. Yeah, the very first member.

Number zero two. I'm zero zero one. Right, right. He's zero zero. That's right. But, yeah, so it basically said, hey, you know, I appreciate you putting your faith and trust in me. It was one, now we're two guys.

Let's keep going. And I still have that email. I saved that email. That is awesome. So, again, what I'm hearing you say, because the human brain, especially where entrepreneurship is concerned, it's like, I want to complicate things. I want to complicate things. I'm going to run Facebook ads and YouTube ads and it's going to go to this funnel.

At that funnel, they're going to get pixeled, and then we're going to retarget them here. And then we have to write a BSL, video sales letter that's so compelling that's going to convert people at $1,000 ahead. And you're like, I got an idea. I'm going to take the people that already have the KLT factor, the no like and trust factor with me from your podcast. And I'm going to introduce them to something, as you said, you undercharged. Yes.

But it was an opportunity for you to sell something and gain confidence. Right. Test out the product or service that you have. Does this thing really have traction? Did it impact their lives? And when you sell something for a low price, you don't really need the most fancy and high-speed sales process. And, you know, even the way that we had worked the program, I knew the six topics that we wanted to talk about. I didn't have any of that written out.

I had the first two weeks. The first topic I had written out, it was a PDF, and it just said, here's, you know, 10 questions, here's 10 things that we're going to talk about over the next two weeks, and here's the Facebook group. And that's all I had written. And so I was moving into lesson number two, working on lesson number two, as we as a team were going through lesson number one. This reminds me of, oh man, catch me if you can. Tom Hankson, what's his name? Leo, Leonardo DiCaprio.

Right? Because that was based on a real situation. Frank Abignaleigh, I think his name. Exactly. And when they asked him, the FBI asked them, they said, all right, we understand how you counterfeited checks and airplane tickets, but how did you go into a university and teach for a whole year? And I don't know if you know this. His answer was, I just had to be one chapter ahead. That's it. That's it. I didn't know that, but that's yeah. I just had to be one chapter ahead of the students that I was teaching. That's it. And so if we go from complex to simple, we can create an outcome and impact faster, which is really what you're saying.

The lesson of speed of implementation, good man. Right. That's powerful. Yeah. So now you're like, all right, this thing works. I've got these people in this council and well, at least six pillars of education. I'm going to do it. Your podcast is growing.

Now were your podcast solo episodes or did you have guests? We started with a guest episode and then about a year and a half into it. I moved to a second show a week, which was just a monologue. So it was anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes of me just talking about some concepts and ideas. Because what I realized is that the people who are listening wanted to hear from the guests, the experts that we had on. But there was also an opportunity for me to position myself as an authority too. And that's where that Friday show came in. And then about a year and a half or two years after that.

Wait a minute, wise guy. Listen, you're just, say, this is what happens when we talk to someone who has gone from like competency to zone of genius because you just preased over so easily something so magical that you did and you said because when you have a guest on your show you're a host

sure yeah right I'm a host right I'm a host right when I'm doing a monologue when you're doing a monologue and when you launched a second show where it's just Ryan Mickler you are now the celebrity definitely and that's how you build the brand right and that was a very powerful thing you said it but I don't know if the audience caught it so I like to slow it down

and explain that. Was that a very deliberate attempt of doing that? It was because I realized that I had built up some level of credibility with my audience because I was borrowing it from my guests, which was fine, but I felt like I had to position myself as somewhat of a credibility or authority on the subjects that I was talking about. Sure. Because there was things that I wanted to offer, more courses, more programs,

gradually events that we brought into the equation. And I realized that was going to be a big part of it is selling myself, not just other people. Brilliant. Brilliant. So as you, as someone who is going to launch a podcast, I've had this happen to me where I might get a DM. Pedro, I'm thinking of launching a podcast, and I would like you to be the first guest. And I never know how to answer that, because I certainly want to be the person to help them. But I also know, like, are you sure it's a good idea to have me as your first guest? Like, what would you advise that person who reaches out to me?

Should they go after the biggest fish they can? or do they start small or monologues? How does someone start? So the way I look at guests, this is, I just want to say this differently than, let me put a disclaimer in here. This doesn't mean worth of individuals as I say this. Sure.

We're talking about it purely from a strategical standpoint. Right. So I look at podcast guests in tiers. We have A, B, and C tier. A C-tier guest would be somebody who might have a message, maybe they're just getting started, don't really have a great social media footprint at this point, aren't real clear, articulate on what they're talking about,

but they're solid. They've got some interesting things to share. That would be a C-level guest. A B-level guest would be somebody, like myself, I would be a B-level guest. So I've got information. I know how to articulate it. My social media footprint is there.

It's visible. Obviously, I know how to communicate a message in a way that people resonate with. And then you have an A-level guest. An A-level guest is somebody who's potentially, household name, they're well known, they've got a huge social media footprint. Those are the home runs. And you need mostly A and B guests is what you're looking for. B guests can actually be more valuable than A level guests. How so? Because B level guests have a reason to share the fact that they were on your podcast. A level guests have no reason to do that. Really? Because they

already have the following. Jock was a great example. You know, Jock was a friend of mine. He's been on my podcast four times I believe now. He's an A-level guest. He has no reason whatsoever to share anything. Now, he will because we're connected and there's some trust there. But he doesn't need to do that. A B-level guest is going to feel honored and proud that they were, when this podcast goes and is available, I'm going to share this because it's in my best interest to share because I get to borrow from some of your authority and credibility with your audience. Sure. Makes total sense. So where do the C-level guests come in? In other words, should that new person, start with that A-level guest when they have zero listeners?

It's not a bad... Because that A-level guy is not going to go promoting them, as what I'm hearing you say. They're probably not going to promote you, so you need to be aware of that. Do make it easy for your A-level guest to promote by creating assets, showing them the links, honoring the guests that you have on by presenting them in the best possible light that you can. That's very important. But the B-level guest, you know, if I was to create a formula, I would say four to one. Four B-level to one A-level.

Gotcha. And I'm strategic about when I release those A-level guests as well, it's not A-A-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B. It's B-B-B-A, B-B-B-A. Brilliant. Thank you for that formula, because when we have a formula, a process to follow, we can then go through it. So a 4-to-1 ratio is in 4B-B-L-Gest's, 1-A-level guests. Correct. And it's B-B-B-A in way of releasing them.

So I'm not going to release like Michael Jordan and then this guy. Right. and, you know, a high-level athlete. The other thing, too, is why would you want to cut your teeth with an A-level guest? So I'm going to go back to Jocko. I remember I was, he was not my first guest. He was probably my 70th guest. And I remember that that was at the time the most nervous I had been for an interview.

What if that was my first? Right, and that's what I always wondered. I would have ruined it with him. I would have ruined any authority or credibility or likability with him because I was so, I was nervous. And he was, I'd been doing it. I did 70 episodes. And I was still nervous.

So I can cut my teeth with a B-level type guest, get comfortable, find my voice, find my rhythm, and then you can start working in some of these A-level guests when you have some of that experience under your feet. Makes total sense. And so making those assets for them, honoring them in those assets, giving them the link. Basically, make it easy for that A-level, B-level person to promote you. Right. Right. And get that out there for you.

Great tip. Let's move on to the fact of how, is there a strategy to build the following of a podcast? So I use the term cross-pollinate when it comes to the platforms that I use. So the platforms that I currently have are all of our social media accounts, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all those things. And then you also have your podcast potentially. And you also have the ability to go on other people's podcasts or shows like we're doing now. Sure. So what you want to do is you want to cross-pollinate.

So this is a tactic that I learned. in a financial planning industry. There was a report that showed that those people who had multiple lines of business with you were more likely to stay with you if they did. So if they bought life insurance, for example, and that's all they bought, they were less likely to be a long-term client

than if you had life insurance, mutual funds, a 401k, et cetera, et cetera. So the whole goal was to give as many lines of business going because that would represent longevity with a client. The same thing is true in this world. If you're following me on Instagram and Facebook and the podcast and you're on my email newsletter list, you're going to be more likely to stick around because you're seeing it everywhere. And you actually think I'm everywhere when I'm really not.

Right, right. It's very much similar. Right, exactly. So you need to cross-pollinate what you had. Now, I did something that I'm not going to say it was, it wasn't, it was, I'm trying to think about how to say. It probably isn't the best strategy. Okay. But I have, I had this, I had this, I had this.

client list, and there's a lesson here I'm going to explain, but I had this client list and I had a database that people I had reached out to in my financial planning practice. I sent an email to them and I said, I'm launching a podcast and has nothing to do with financial services. And here it is if you're interested. So it was unsolicited, but the lesson is you got to have a little bit of balls. Sure. You've got to put yourself out there and ask people to listen or to follow or to do what it is you're doing. So the other strategy is build a community. The earlier you can build a community the better. So if you can get other people talking about it, it's much more relevant and powerful than if you are talking about it alone. So our Facebook group was a huge strategy in building a

community early, and that's how it magnified. Makes total sense because this is the share era where if someone loves a message, loves an episode, loves a clip, I'm going to screenshot, share, tag, et cetera, right? Well, and not only that, but think about if I told you that, we have a great podcast. That's not as credible as you saying, Ryan has a great podcast. Right. Makes total sense.

Love that. And so let's talk about this for a moment. You said, you've got to have a little balls to be able to go to people and go, hey, guys, this hasn't nothing to do with financial planning. However, I'm doing this thing,

and this might be the topic, and you might want to take a listen. In that way, if someone's like, dude, I want to get this B-level person, hell, A-level person on my podcast. I've got 20 shows under my belt, and I think I can do this. Does everybody report,

with the hell yes when you message them right? Very few people actually reply with a yes. Let's talk about that for a moment. I get turned down every day. Still, every day. Still, every day. Folks, listen to that. Still, every day after six years,

where the man is an authority on a topic, on a very specific topic. So tell us more. Yeah, and not only turned out, I mean, flat out ignored quite often, you know? So that is a challenge. You have to have thick skin and be aware of that. But what I would say is be very strategic

in how you're, I don't want to be I don't want to use the word attacking, but that's probably a good choice because you have a target. And so you have to think about what is the best way to get to this target that you have. And the best thing that you can do is find out what pain points they're experiencing currently and how you can help, positioning yourself between their pain and their solution, or what programs and courses and offerings that they currently have available or they're interested in promoting. So when I reached out to Jocko initially, I said, hey, I know that you have extreme ownership. And we've used this book as our book of the month inside of our Iron Council.

The men who listen are already familiar with you. We can introduce a whole new subset or an audience to you. And he said, yes, because it was hard to resist that offer. And it was not like, please do me a favor because that's about me. Right. It's about him. What's in it for you for the person that you're reaching out? Correct.

case you want to show up with value. How can I put money in your pocket? And how can this serve you, making it easier for them to say yes. And make it quick and succinct. So if you're going to reach out to somebody, they don't need the entire backstory. They don't need any of that because then it's about you. Right? You're highlighting you.

Why are your pocket? That's you. That's ego-driven. My favorite is. Make it about them. The stuff that I talk about has made me who I am today. When I have no idea who you are today, and I may not be very impressed with who you are today. Right.

So make it about them. highlight them, feature them, solve their problems. And, you know, there's another great strategy, too, is that if I can get an introduction via somebody else, you can cut through a lot of that nonsense too. So if I said I wanted a connection to Steve Weatherford, for example, and you and I had a good rapport built, then I would feel comfortable asking you for a connection to Steve

and you would connect me to Steve. And then I get to bypass his gatekeepers, all the emails that I need to send, figuring out the best way to get to him. because you have made that introduction for me. Love that. Thank you. So as that happens, and we've got the rhythm of how we're going to put the posts out. We know that the B-level people are much more likely to promote for us,

and when they promote, we start getting more of their followers. We're going to cross-pollinate across many platforms. Copy, got that. And now let's talk about, all right, man, I think I've got a good rhythm here. I've got a good rhythm. And I'm getting guests. I'm getting turned down, but I'm going to be persistent. I'm going to have balls.

I'm cross-pollinating. But, Ryan, I need to make money because I just don't like my full-time gig anymore, how do I start monetizing this podcast? Well, simple answer is to sell something. Lovely. And most people can't wrap their heads around that. Right. Because they think that if they sell something, that somehow they're alienating or taking advantage of their audience. Or they're a sellout, yeah, right? Like, you're not authentic anymore. You're trying to gain something. And that might be the case if it is in alignment with what you're doing. I actually, when I started, I started doing podcast ads, and I was selling life insurance and underwear promotions and mattresses. And I thought, this is

ridiculous. I don't want, it has nothing to, this is disingenuous. So I figured I had to sell something else. Very easy. Sell some hats. Sell some shirts. That's the best way to do it. Go set. Put a print, a design on a shirt and it's cheap, it's easy. You don't need a lot of inventory. You could probably get 20, 30, 50 shirts, sell shirts. And you can realize that, oh, I can actually make money. And that confidence booster, like you said, is a huge, huge advantage. Great place to start, which is apparel. and sure it's great place now someone that's say who's service based or they might even have a product and let's say you know what I think I want to sell some kind of a service and use my

podcast as the feeder into that service yeah maybe they're a nutrition coach online coach a financial planner yep they do some kind of life coaching etc let's talk about the iron council and how you started to feed that with what near 800 people now right over 800 guys over 800 men and the Iron Council, a paid for program, and the main feeder for that, if I'm not mistaken, is the podcast. Definitely. Okay, let's talk about that. So that was the course that we initially started, the 12-week course with 12 guys. It was called the Iron Council.

And that's what I would recommend to anybody who's wanted to get started with something that's service-based is to put together a four-to-six-week program. Don't do a 12-week program. That's what I did. It was too long. Got you. Do a four-to-six-week program. What did you find?

How did you come to the conclusion that it was too long? Because I realized that there was more opportunity than I thought, and I had to wait to take advantage of those opportunities for 12 weeks when I would have loved to have only had to wait four weeks before we opened something else up. And I can back that up by saying here at Fit Body Boot Camp, we run our annual New Year New Year Challenge where the people worldwide who get the transformation, they could win $100,000 from us. And our first one was 12 weeks, and we saw a massive drop-off of excitement enthusiasm. We went down to eight weeks. We had more people finish it. Like 20,000 people started, 15,000 finished. And then we went to six weeks now,

we're seeing that stick rate is almost 100%. The other thing, I think you may attest to this, I'd be actually really curious what you say about this, is that in six weeks, where they're still at the peak and the height of their excitement, they're more likely to convert to something else. Bingo. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Because the, you know what this is like, I would sell people, when you buy a brand new car, when you buy a brand new car, that's when you take best care of it. You're an armor all on the tires, not eating food on the inside of it. Hell, you're going to hold your fart, and you're going to fart outside, and you're washing it and waxing it as though you work at a car dealership. And after a few months, there's, like, wrappers in it, and it's got a ding in it.

And the reason is that excitement is gone. And the human excitement for services I found through thousands of people that I coach from our franchise and my businesses, Six weeks, four to six weeks is a sweet spot. And you nailed it. And that's exactly it. And I think it's just because then after we kind of lose enthusiasm, we go, what's next?

What's next? What's next? Yeah. And that's what we did. We said, okay, these guys, they were in for about eight weeks, and we realized, because a lot of them were asking, what do we do when this is closed? Because it was a closed system, right?

12 weeks, and then it's over. And I didn't know. And I said, well, I guess we'll just keep going. And so that's what we did. And we've evolved and we've changed and we've tweaked and adapted as we went from 12 members to 80 members to 500 members to now we're getting to the point where we're going to hit 1,000 here pretty quickly. Gotcha.

So is the Iron Council now a membership site, or do they go through a course and then into the membership piece? It's a membership piece. It's continually open. So that means they can sign up and they can leave at any time. But we are considering making it only available once a quarter. Got it. So we'll close it down. Probably the end of this month, we'll close it down.

And then we'll open it up at the beginning of March. for a 30-day window. Like an onboarding place. Right. And then in April, they'll have access to it. Gotcha. So in your expertise and in your trial and errors that you've gone through, we know that you said, hey, try and do four to six weeks.

Four to six weeks because now I've got more opportunity and I can go, all right, guys, here's what we're going to do to continue. Plus it's less content that you need to put together to. Less content. I've been through that. I'm like, oh man, what am I going to talk about? What am I going to? A week thing.

That's a lot of content. I can top this in one thing. For sure. And so someone new starting out. What I found in my business, and I don't know if this runs in podcasting, because, again, I'm learning so much where the empire is concerned, we've been doing this for two years. But in my business, if I get a new coaching client that goes, hey, I got this idea for a membership site, I'm like, let me see your following, let me see what you've sold before.

And if they don't have a good following and they don't have a good footprint in the industry, I go, do not sell a continuity program, something that's a membership site. because the person doesn't see you as an expert or an authority or industry celebrity. Right. They're kind of like in this position, like, I don't know who you are. But if it was a one-time purchase, right, a one-time buy this course, $99, love it or hate it, it's one-time payment. Right. That's what I found in my world.

In the podcasting, the new podcaster who's listening to us and saying, all right, so should I just do like an iron counsel and go right into a membership site? Or should they start with a course and then convert into continuity? I would probably do that. I don't think I'd go into a membership site because it looks easy and I get a lot of people. I've had people reach out to me and say, you know, you have a great job. I want to do it. It looks like you just, you know, sit there and play around on social media all day. You like that? Yeah, that's all it is.

Go for it. Good luck. No, it's a challenge. It's hard work. And running a membership site with hundreds of people is a challenge where, you know, people have concerns or complaints even or they have situations and circumstances, especially in COVID. Right. You had a bunch of guys that wanted to leave. And I'm like, well, I don't want these guys to.

feel like they have to leave because the finances aren't there. So we started at a financial assistance fund. We're the guys who were set contributed to this fund. Okay. And then we don't offer this to anybody's not an existing member. You have to be an existing member. If you're struggling financially because of COVID-related concerns, you can tap and access into the financial assistance fund.

Well, we don't want finances to be an issue. If you're there, because you've already proved and committed to us. Now, if you come to me and say, hey, I'm hurting financially, I want to join the Iron Council. Yeah, because I've heard you guys have a little bank that I can do. Right. It's like, no, we don't make it available for them. But what I would suggest is do a four-week course, and here's what I would add. I'll tell you exactly what I would do if I was to start all over.

I'd have four topics around your area of expertise. Let's say it's nutrition. So the first could be when to eat, you know, eating schedule. I'm just making things up. Eating schedule, the right type of food to eat, how to resist temptations, and then how to maintain that course of action for months, if not years. Okay. Those are the four topics.

You're going to start a Facebook group forum. You're going to have a weekly phone call via Zoom. Everybody's using Zoom now, so just use Zoom. And then you're going to put together an assignment. And that assignment, here's the beauty of the assignment. It's not content. It's only questions. So you're not putting together paragraphs of information these people need to do.

You have a list of maybe five to ten questions per topic, and you give that to them, and you say, complete this before our call on Friday, because I'm on a list of maybe five to ten questions per topic, and you give that to them. because on Friday we're going to discuss the answers. Got it. Do you mean an example of a question or two from your world? Because my brain's going, well, what kind of questions? Yeah. So this month we're focused on overcoming imposter syndrome in the Iron Council.

So a question might be, why do you feel like an imposter? Where does this feeling come from? What would need to happen so you feel more confident about who you are? What are your biggest fears about stepping into uncomfortable and awkward situations. Gotcha. You just help me right now, like save, you just save me from fielding like about 300 questions from people saying, what kind of questions would I ask them, though?

So thank you for that. Good, yes. So you just ask those open-ended questions, allow them to fill it in, and then you make prompts in your Facebook group. Which allows them to also kind of go within and go, where am I feeling this from? Where does it show up? And where did it come from? And what do I need to do?

And isn't that what you'd want to do? Like, you don't want to solve all their problems. You want to give them the information so they can solve their own problems. Yes, sir. So then what you do in the Facebook group is on Monday, you say the first question. Why do you feel like an imposter? Comment below. So now you're fostering engagement and community.

Now they start, one guy says, well, I'm feeling like that because my dad always said I was a failure. And the other guy says, my dad said that too. Like, what have you done about that? And now you are having members interact with each other and you're not having to do everything. Yeah. And then on Tuesday, you ask the second, Thursday. third, so on. No content needed. You literally came up with five to ten questions. You sent it out in a PDF document. You gave a place where these people could gather and talk about

important issues and you gave up an hour of your time on Friday or whenever it is for a call to interact with these people one to one. One other little bonus you could do is if you have people who are credible in these areas, make sure there are two things. Credible and they have the ability to communicate effectively because credibility alone is not enough. If they're boring and they're not great communicators, that's not going to help you. But you could consider bringing on an expert each week. And if

you did that, you wouldn't need to do anything. Right. Right. There would be no con- That's all you're doing. I don't know that I recommend you not doing some sort of contribution to it, but that is a strategy. My opinion would be that you ought to do it yourself. Yes. But if you want to scale in many different

verticals, I mean, there's a person, there's people who do that. I'm a big fan of Nissan GTRs. And there's guys that, like, holy crap, this guy runs a whole Nissan GTR site, but he also runs like the whole, same thing on AR-15s. Yeah. And the same things on Winkler Knives. Like, I see what you're doing.

You're just bringing in experts. I mean, he's got three YouTube channels, all in the millions. Right. But he's just the facilitator. Yeah, it just facilitates. Or what I would do and what I do currently do is I'm the expert, so to speak. I don't think that's the right term necessarily, but I host a Friday call still. Yeah.

And then periodically we have guests. experts come in that are one-off type situations where that enhances their value. Which also creates, because I do that in my ignition program, my online coaching program for business owners, which is when you are the person bringing in guests that they would no longer have access to, this creates retention for you. Definitely. Because by way of being in the Iron Council, I have access to whatever, let's say, Jocko, David Goggins and Bob and Joe and holy crap, like I see yet another reason why I need to stay in this group and stay connected.

Right, because how else are they going to get access to you? Like nobody would, not nobody, but very few people would be able to sit down and ask you a question about that particular topic. But if you're in the Iron Council and you come on and you visit with us and how they have access that I created for them. Correct. Correct. All right, so let's shift gears now with I think everyone watching and listening to this has a very clear and deliberate idea. If you've got a business, you should start a podcast. How do you monetize that podcast? How do you get your guests?

And that obviously in the process of monetizing and getting those guests, don't sell out and, for a lack of a better term, be disingenuine, right? Which we talked about. Yeah, not only is it a miserable way to do business, it's not a very profitable way to do business either. Because you'd have to have millions and millions of people listening for you to make any money selling ads on your podcast. Yeah, with things that you don't even believe in.

Right. Which never seems on. Yeah, it's not going to be exciting at all. Right. So I want to shift gears a little bit before we wrap this up and talk about the mission of Order of Man and the mission of Ryan Migler and what you're doing here. Yeah. Where did this, well, I know where it came from now because you spoke at the Squire program yesterday, but where did Order of Man originate from? Well, I struggled as a new husband, a new father. I didn't do what needed to be done and it caused a lot of problems in our marriage. My wife and I went through a separation.

I put a lot of blame and burden on her that didn't belong there. Some responsibility, sure. But I wasn't accepting my own portion of the responsibility, which is 100%. Right. I engaged in the relationship, 100% my responsibility. And she also has 100% responsibility, both of us do. So we went through that separation. Long story short, I learned a lot about who I was and responsibility and accepting the burden of the responsibility.

And as I did that, we were able to work out and salvage our marriage. We've been married. This year will be 17 years. But I talked with a lot of guys who'd gone through similar situations. Dad wasn't available. Went through some separation or potential divorce with their spouse. They felt inadequate. They didn't feel like men the way they wanted to feel.

And as I had these conversations, I realized, oh, my goodness, like, this is a conversation men need to have. So when we released our podcast in March of 2015, that first episode did more downloads the day that we released it than any of my previous podcast, which was called Wealth Anatomy. Sure. And I knew immediately, okay, this is on, yeah, we're on to something that's very relevant for people. And I will tell you the other thing about it, too, in an environment where podcasts, there's millions of podcasts out there, right? Millions of YouTube channels.

Like, this is the way it is. That you have to be hyper consistent. I remember sitting down with a friend of mine who was very successful in business and I said, yeah, I'm going to start this podcast. And I'm not going to make a decision as to whether or not I stop or continue for two years. I said, I'm going to do this for two years. And I'm not even going to look at the results to determine whether or not I should continue. I'll look at the results to figure out if it's working. Right, right.

But not if I'm going to quit. What was the idea behind that? I realized that I needed to give it time to ramp up because it was very saturated. And so how can I expect to compete with other organizations? when I'm just putting my foot in the water and they're already in the deep end doing laps. Sure. So I needed to give myself time to catch up

and I knew I could. Time to mature, ladies and gentlemen, that is the most important thing and not only in your development as a subject matter expert, but also in a new platform you launch. Definitely. Every market is saturated.

It doesn't matter where you go. It's saturated. So how do you stand out? You have to give it time to find your voice. Yes. And for people to find your voice. And you have to be hyper-consistent. So when we started that podcast

in March of 2015 to now, we've done over, I want to say it's close to 700 episodes. I have not missed a single podcast, not a Tuesday, not a Wednesday or not a Friday, not a single podcast in nearly six years. There was one time I almost missed. I was at 11 o'clock at night. I was at a jiu-jitsu camp for a week, and I forgot for some reason. And I had just haul ass and go do it. I had my recording stuff with me. And I recorded at 11 o'clock at night, and I hit published around 11.30 that evening on a, it must have been on a Tuesday evening so the show could go live Wednesday morning. But I've not missed a single episode,

and that's what it takes. I had something very similar happen, so I told you about these six week challenges that I do. For some reason, I took on 100 days of beer drinking. And I'm not a big fan of alcohol. I like soda pop. If I'm gonna have anything to drink, it'll be soda pop, right? And so I'm like, you know what?

I'm gonna learn the difference between a hoppy beer and a Pilsner and an AAL, like, oh, I want to know, man. I feel like it's something I had to know. Because someone's like, hey, having a beer, you want a beer? And I do like the taste of some beers, but others I'm like, oh, that was horrible. Yeah. But I don't know if 805 is going to be hoppy or not, right? And so, long story, shoot, I'm like, you know what?

I'm going to do a very different kind of challenge. It's not going to be physical. In fact, it's probably going to make me fat. 100 days of beer drinking. And so one day, and one of the rules was that every day I have to drink a different type of beer and, you know, kind of research on it, just 10 minutes, 15 minutes of research on it, and that's that. But if I miss it, because there always has to be a discipline component to it for me, if I miss a single day, I start over at day one. And so it was like day 40-something, and I, you know, brushed my teeth, crawl into bed, you know, kiss the wife, good night.

And, oh, shoot, right? Like, I got to go. Where are you going? Downstairs. I got to drink a beer. So I bought the beer. I never drank it. And it just happened to be that we were going to bed late. It was like 11.15 or something. And so anyway, you know, thankfully I got there before midnight. So like you, I was able to, and that was the worst challenge I ever did. But I couldn't quit because I would just feel like a loser if I did.

Yeah. Ironically, I can taste any beer now until exactly what I'm drinking. Yeah. You learned. Yeah. And it takes that time and that consistency. So let's talk about something here before we wrap up, which is men. Why are men so confused? Why are men so allergic to leading? families leading businesses. What is the problem with men today, man? Well, we've, frankly, we've grown up in an environment that's fostered that level of confusion and contention and frustration around what it means to be a man, you know, from the time that we're born. I mean, think about the figure when it comes to fatherless homes. You know, I was raised primarily by my mother. She did a wonderful job, but not the complete job, because not to any of her discredit. She did an amazing job raising me, but she wasn't fully.

capable of turning me into a man. A good human being? Sure, but not a man. Sure. Men need to learn from other men. What's the difference between a good human being and a man, Ryan? Well, that might be longer than we have for this. But let's talk about these few subjects. First and foremost, personal accountability and responsibility. But any human being can do that. Sure. Right. Next, you have, and this is very important, these are the pillars in my mind of masculinity, somebody who's capable of protecting, providing, and presiding for themselves, and for the people under their care. And if you're doing that, you're on the path to becoming a man.

So we have these terms that we throw around. A lot of people don't really think about these terms as much as I do because I'm in the space. Masculinity, for example, and they'll conflate that with manliness or being a man. Masculinity is just what's produced because of the testosterone that's coursing through our veins. A man has learned how to harness his masculinity and turned it into productive outcomes for himself and the people that he cares about. Understood. That's manliness, not masculinity. Gotcha.

Protecting, providing, and presiding over yourself and the people that you, that are under your protection, sexually. Yeah. Yeah. Meaning, you are right. This is how I look at it. No, you are right. But we also have a responsibility for people who aren't quote unquote under our protection.

For example, my wife and children are unequivocally under my protection. I've signed that contract, if you will, to say, I'm going to be your partner and I'm going to be your father. Okay, so definitely under my protection. But then there's strangers and people who, for whatever reason, can't take care of themselves or provide. We talked about charity the last couple of days. They're not technically under your protection, but you do have a responsibility to these individuals to help lift them up. Amen. Well said.

Well said. What am I missing here? Is there anything I should have asked in terms of podcasting, getting guests, monetizing, growing, that I should have, that I missed? I would say look at different avenues of income and don't limit yourself to what other people are doing because that's the way you're supposed to do it. Find something that's going to work for you. So we have merchandise sales, we do courses, we have our membership program, which we talked at length about today. We also do live events. And so we've created different ways to connect individuals, to offer services and

products that are going to be valuable in the men's lives, and then also to generate revenue for us. So this was a perfect time this year. Some of our events got postponed and canceled. Sure. But that did impact my business too negatively because I had other things in place that were able to hedge in absence of those things. So start with one. When you get a good foundation with that one, look at bringing in some ancillary products and services that can round out your portfolio, I guess is how I would choose to look at it. Great way to put it. appreciate that. That's absolutely high value. And to that point, this episode is fantastic for man, woman, any entrepreneur looking to build an amazing podcast that actually gains legs

and has traction and can financially benefit you. But for men who want to find you and connect with the order of man, with learning more about the Iron Council, and just literally, I guess getting mentored by you on social media. What is the best platforms to find you on and connect with you. So the podcast is the best place because we're going to talk about all of this stuff. And then we also have a free program available. It is specifically designed for men, but I've had hundreds, if not thousands of women, go through the program as well, and it's been beneficial. And if you like it for the information, great. If you just want to see it for the strategy, then that's good too. But if you go to order a man.com slash battle ready,

then you'll go through a free email course that's going to explain what it is we do, help you become battle ready in your own life. And also, because we're talking about it from a business perspective, it's going to guide you into the Iron Council. Now, whether you choose or not to go that route or take it and take the information, that's up to you. But the whole concept is to guide you into the Iron Council. I want to be very clear about that because that's what this podcast is about. Right. Right. That's exactly right. So it's order of man.com forward slash battle ready. Got it. Understood. And of course, subscribe to the Order of Man podcast. Be sure to follow Ryan. It's just Ryan Mickler at Instagram.

Yeah, on Instagram, at Ryan Mickler. Sure. Done and done. Hey, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Pedro. And guys and gals,

thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode of the Empire show. Do me a favor as you listen to the show or watch it on YouTube take a screenshot,

share it in your stories, and be sure to tag Ryan and myself. We'll see you later.