Bedros Keuilian Podcast Show - Frank Kern: Are You Spending Too Much on Ads? - 061

Episode Date: August 22, 2018

Ever wondered how an Internet marketing genius approaches advertising? In this episode, Bedros Keuilian sits down with direct response marketing legend Frank Kern, who shares the simple 3-step formula he uses to turn his ads into compelling stories that hit home. Watch or listen now to discover why you need continuity if you want to scale your business to 7 or 8 figures. If you want to generate more leads from your online ads, then this episode is a must-listen. “Don’t make a permanent decision on temporary feelings.” - Bedros Keuilian Here’s what you’ll discover: 1:40 - How much do you need to spend on traffic when advertising online? 7:20 - How to build a bond with your prospects and make selling easier. 13:41 - How to improve your communication skills and make your ads more powerful. 40:28 - Why continuity is the cornerstone to financial stability. 45:33 - Why successful entrepreneurs evolve by nature. “The money is made when the bond is created.” - Frank Kern

The fact is the money is made when that bond is created. Like, can you go and hit people hard and, like, get the sale immediately? Sure. Here's what it takes to do that. You've got to be one of the best marketers on the planet, right? Because it's really, really freaking hard. And in order to scale it and sustain it, now you have to be like one of the best of the best of the best marketers on the planet. And the math still doesn't work in your favor.

Hey, friends, Bedros Kulian here. Welcome to another episode of the Empire podcast Inside Look. Today we've got a very special guest, a dear friend of mine. For almost a whole decade now, Mr. Frank Kern, America's number one direct response consultant. At least by weight. Easily by weight. Yeah. Dude.

So we've known each other for almost a decade. I think longer. Perhaps longer. Yeah, I think it's a lot, because I was thinking about it on the way up here. I think it's 11 years because you've known me since the mass control days. I think that was 2007. That was 2007. Ain't that something?

And see, I'm good at the math. I'm good at reading and science. ciphering. So I think that's 11 years. How about them apples? So for those of you who don't know of you, which is probably a small segment of my readership, since I often talk about you, but we've got a pretty big following on the Empire podcast showing out. Why don't you tell everyone what it is that you do right now, and then we'll start kind of going backwards into the history of that? I am an unrepentant advertising man. Yeah. So what I do is help clients turn advertising into profit. And that's really the easiest way to describe it. Preferred medium is social at the

moment. Sometimes I'll help folks with direct mail. Used to do a lot of email copy for folks and strategizing and strategizing on that. But right now, social is so cheap. I mean, we're broadcasting this live. We'll probably boost it if it's good or an edited version. We get people to see it for pennies. Yeah. So long story short, I make long form commercials that get people help them get their story out there and then retarget the viewers of that to create sales. So when you say you use social for advertising, I think maybe some people watching think, oh, well, then I just have to create a lot of free videos and free content and make some posts up there, maybe get some influencers for advertising. I think that's a current trend of thought,

but you're really spending dollars to buy traffic, right? Yeah, I would have it no other way. How do you decide how much money you should spend to buy traffic? Well, here's the unfiltered, non-sexy, I'm never going to sell you anything with this answer. Answer. It depends on risk tolerance. Really. What is risk tolerance? It depends on how much you're willing to lose at first, you know?

So I guess we'll talk to two different camps of people because some of the people that watch your stuff are like really, really advanced. And then some of them are new. Yes. So I typically, I'm not like trying to be like, hey, screw you if you're new. But most of my clients are seven-figure plus businesses. And even they need to be reminded of this, whenever you start a new campaign, of any campaign, you don't know if it's going to work. I mean, you think it is.

So when you first start it, the question of whether your seasons are not, the question of how much should I spend is, well, how much am I comfortably losing on this if it doesn't work? And, man, you'll never hear that from someone trying to sell you on, buy my course on how to buy ads or whatever, or how to run ads. But that's really the truth. Right. Well, they're going to tell you that, hey, when you buy my course on how to run ads, you're going to run profitable ads and make a lot of money and have this amazing lifestyle.

Doing nothing while the gold-covered unicorns deliver money to your house. Truth of the matter is, again, I'm buying traffic from Facebook for my franchise. I'm buying traffic from Facebook and Google for my coaching programs, which is very similar to what you're doing. But the way we buy traffic is different. It's almost a two-step process. and I've learned this from you. I don't even know what he's talking about.

I would like to at this moment retroactively acclaim 100% responsibility for all of your success, even before you met me. Right, right. Yeah, early days. Yeah, my gym. Anything you accomplished in childhood. All of that was me. It wasn't much.

Still taking it. But the two step I'm talking about is something that you, I think I saw you put up a video recently where, hey, I put up a video recently, where, hey, I put up a piece of content video that gives people results in advance, and you build an audience, and then you target them again to sell them. Why spend money twice to make a sale? Why not just run an ad for an offer to a webpage that sells? You can, and that can work.

So here's the challenge with it. Ultimately, the answer is math, A. And so I'm like the least, now physically sexy, yes. But the content, the least sexy content you're ever going to hear from somebody because I'm just going to tell you it's ultimately math and nobody likes math. Like, who wants to buy my math course? But at the end of the day is math, all right? So if you look at the traditional model of Internet marketing, all right, whatever you want to wrap that up, you drive traffic to a landing page, somebody opts in, all right? So let's say you're spending a dollar click, you get a 30% opt-in rates, you're spending $3 per opt-in.

Right, right, great, whatever. cheap opt-ins, by the way, depending on market. And then now your job is to email those dudes some videos and stuff or whatever to warm them up before you pitch them. All right. So let's say that 50%, and which would be a huge amount of people, by the way, but 50% of everyone who opts in actually opens the email, reads it, clicks it, goes and watches your video. Much higher percentage than what is real, but for the sake of easy math.

That means we've spent six bucks in marketing costs to get a person to start watching. the video. Does every person who starts watching the video finish it? No, of course not. You know, so let's say that half of those people, of those 50% they go to watch the first one, actually consume all three of your content videos if you're following the traditional model of like a three-part warm-up sequence. So it's 12 bucks, right? So short answer is math, taking a long way to do it. We, I'll give you two week old stats. So these are the most recent stats I have by memory. Our average long-form content video. that we post and pay money to run traffic to on Facebook.

As of two weeks ago, it was eight minutes and nine seconds. We run to my fans and followers, and we run to complete strangers, and we track the performance of each. It costs us an average of 88 cents to get a total stranger to consume all eight minutes and nine seconds. So if you multiply that by three, it's under three bucks. Which would you rather spend? $12 or less than $3?

Because the fact is the money is made when that bond is created. Like, can you go and hit people hard and get the sale immediately? Sure. Here's what it takes to do that. You've got to be one of the best marketers on the planet, right? Because it's really, really freaking hard. And in order to scale it and sustain it, now you have to be like one of the best of the best of the best marketers on the planet. And the math still doesn't work in your favor.

So it's way better to build a relationship. Let's stop right there for a second. Don't you tell me what to do. You hit the nail on the head and I want to dive deeper into something. The money is made when the bond is created. Yeah. And I think what happens with most people, and I was guilty of this until discovering your stuff a decade ago, of the equivalent of walking into a bar, church, gym, going, wow, you're cute. Let's get married.

Let's say we're doing that in the church. It seems like the right. No, let's do we're doing it in the gym. Yeah. Like it never happens in the gym. Yeah. Right? Hey, you're cute.

Let's get married. She's likely going to slap you or run away from you. But when there's a bond made, it's when you make the money. It's when you're likely to get married. So in the advertising space, can you expand on that? Because I see firsthand less and less people trying to build that bond in a relationship, the no like and trust factor, and they're spending more time trying to aggressively grab the money and then getting frustrated when they can't.

Yeah. They should stop doing that. Explain the value, the benefits. What are we going for when we're trying to build this fucking bond? Well, I mean, you know, selfishly, it's profitable to do. A, right? I mean, so there is that. So to not come and be forthcoming with that would make us bullshit artists.

So it's more profitable to do that. But it makes the sale easier, you know, and it sets you up for long-term success. So, man, I see, like, even, like, really successful clients falling into this trap of, I got to get the money right now. Right? So you have two choices. So I remember the movie Color? Yes. I remember the end of the movie when they're like the guy's telling the joke of the two bulls

on the hill and he's like, all right, you know, there's two bulls on the hill. And the young bull looks at the old bull and he says, let's run down that hill and have our way, I'll keep it clean. Let's run down the hill and have our way with one of them cows. And the old bull looks at him and says, why don't we walk down that hill and have our way with all of those cows? And so building the relationship is essentially walking down the hill, right? And so the reason it's important is number one, the math, like I just explained, and

is typically going to be cheaper, even though it's counterintuitive because you're spending money on stuff that doesn't make an offer yet. By the time you get to making the offer, the offer works better. And number two is, when the bond is built, you have repeat business, right? So I'll give you an example. I'm a big Rolls-Royce guy. Love them. Have driven one, well, actually, I don't personally drive hours very often.

It's a company things. We pick our clients up in it. But have had one since 2007 or something. And the reason that I wanted one was number one, the salesman called me and they had an unbelievable deal and it was really cheap and I'm like, okay, you know, it's like one of those lifetime. I still can't get that same deal again. What happened, right? But then the reason I wanted it was because of the story of the Rolls-Royce brand and their history and what that means to me and internally the relationship that I feel with that company, even though I've never met anybody from that company. we've had, and I know it sound like a dick talking about cars right now, but it's just a really good example of a tremendous amount of money being spent purely on emotion, right? So, reason I like Rolls Royces is because the Spitfire airplanes in World War II were powered by Rolls Royce Motors. And I'm a huge World War II fan, and especially aviation, I'm like, that's so cool. You know, so that's reason

number one. The reason number two, the spirit of ecstasy is a sculpture of a woman who one of the partners was in love with. And so I'm like, oh, I did not know that. So awesome, right? And then reason number three is my hero of all heroes, David Ogilvy, which is who I want to be when I grow up. I know I've got a long way to go to make fun of me. I mean, I'm getting older, but in terms of becoming as great as that, you know, he wrote

the campaigns for roles and drove one. So none of that has to do with automotive, right? It has absolutely nothing to do with a car. But still, that's why I get them, and that's why I want to pick up our clients and when we have private clients, you know, we send the cars for them and everything. And that's the power of really establishing that relationship. The bond. So I'm going to buy those cars forever.

You know, I don't care if Bentley's a cooler car, which is not. Sorry, Bentley people. Everyone's got in your opinion. I remember one time, and I forget who you were talking to. And I was, it was at some workshops you were running, and I was standing around and you were talking to someone. And they said something about a Bentley, and you go, that's an almost Rolls-Royce. And that always stuck with me.

And another thing that's stuck with me is where Rolls-Royce is concerned, you don't drive a Rolls-Royce, you're driven in one. And so ever since hearing that, my entire perception of driving has changed where, you know, I have my own driver, right? But going back to what you were saying, the Rolls-Royce origin story that has nothing to do with the car itself. Yeah. The history that it comes where their engines powered the spit-furt. fire in World War II. The spirit of ecstasy was modeled after a woman who one of the owners was fond of or in love with. What's the third thing? That David Ogilvie drove one. And that he wrote the campaigns for them, which made them very popular.

Scientific advertising? Was that David Ogilvy? No, that was Claude Hopkins. Yeah. David Ogilvy wrote, what did he write? Ogovie on advertising? Oglevy on advertising. Oglevy on advertising. Everyone should study him like regardless. Yeah, yeah. And so because of the origin story and the connection that you have the bond, because earlier you said, when you have the bond you make the money, the bond you have to the origin story created the bond and the desire for the car. Yeah, and they're excellent car. I mean, if they were shitty cars, I wouldn't like them. But, you know, they are. You know what's funny, dude, is this is how powerful this is, right?

So you're talking about, you know, Rolls Royce, you had heard that a Rolls Royce, you're meant to be driven in a Rolls Royce. And I'm thinking in my mind, oh no, we've changed that and we're actually working to change a public perception. And in my mind, I'm saying, we, I have nothing to do with Rolls. I don't represent them. I don't do their ads. but I'm so like in tune with them like from not like okay I'm like cool like them but I love that brand so much that I immediately took ownership of that mentally and like was like thinking in terms of not the brand but oh no that's not how we do it and that's what if you can create that with an audience you're done right I mean it's the end like there be a strong brand

eliminates competition right there is none like there is like for me There are two types of automobiles. There's Rolls-Royce and Other, right? And that's the same way with cities. For me, there are two cities on the planet Earth. There's Paris, other. You know, and if you can create that with your target market, then you have, like, you know, Dan Kennedy would call it an iron fence.

I would call it like a gigantic, you know, glass dome around that marketplace. It's impenetrable. So then we're shifting gears perfectly. You've become the master at creating the iron fence or the gigantic glass dome to create an ecosystem where those that you work with or those who end up in your ethers are like, holy shit, Frank Kern knows his stuff. I always take the time to kind of reverse engineer that. And sometimes I've even texted you like, I think it was like five, six years ago.

I texted you, dude, you should do a thing, of course, on how to create like this online celebrity status of yourself because you organically do that so well. And I realize part of that is, well, I bought it through advertising. True. Yeah. Yeah. You manufacture celebrity, right? That's what we do.

We manufacture celebrity in the space that we're in. But you've also mastered the art of communication where you're able to simplify the complex things of buying traffic, entrepreneurship. How does someone begin to improve their communication skills? Because a big part of advertising, selling the way we do today, the internet involves communication, whether it's video, whether it's audio like this, or in the, in the advertising, the way we do today, the internet, in the written form. How does communication get improved? Don't try to be fancy.

No kidding, man. It's some, yes, again, I'm really, really lucky that I don't teach this stuff as much as I did in the past. I do it now professionally for so many clients, like private clients. I'm 50 people in our private client group, which is really, it's not a mastermind. It's like people calling me, hey, what do I do? What do I say? Do we have our agency clients? I'm the creative director of that agency, so I'm scripting out frameworks for all. all of their content that are putting out every week and overseeing all that stuff.

And the number one thing, especially in today's environment, because most people that are listening to this are watching that they're online, most online media right now is very native in the sense that the media is primarily used for people to share data with their friends, which means it's not fancy.

So if you are not fancy and you keep it simple, that's gonna be the best thing ever. And the most powerful way to get a point across through story. So you got to learn how to be a good storyteller. You had sent me, you were helping Natalia, you were helping Natalia with the presentation. I have to remember the story correctly. You were helping Natalia with the presentation.

I was at your house. You took a call with a prospective client. I was talking to Natalia. She was telling me how you helped her with the presentation she was going to do. And then when I left, you sent me the structure of the presentation. Can I ask you to share that here? Yeah. It's simple as point story metaphor.

Yeah, so most people will, first of all, they try to sound smart, you know, and I don't know what it's like to be smart, thanks to my freaking history of debauchery, you know, which he never, he was never party to, it was all me, you were never involved in any of it, you know, but the three remaining brain cells can't really act together in synergy. But first of all, like, don't try to sound uppity, if you will, right? But then most folks would say, okay, you know, I want my message to be this, and they'd say, here's the point. Hi there. Today we're going to talk about this point, and here's a bunch of reasons and technical stuff and yada, yada.

So the best way to do it is a point story metaphor. And I'll share Natalia's that framework. I'll use her as an example as a way to explain it. And this is actually using the framework to explain the framework. So here's the point. Point story metaphor is a great framework. Here's the story. My wife wanted to do a presentation. Her name is Natalia. She's amazing. And the point that she wanted to make was that if you carry your negative, the real point

was that you got to let go of the past in order to progress into the future. So that was her point. So we're trying to figure out how to make that point other than you should let go of the negative things in your past. So it'll sound cool, right? So she was telling me a story of how when she was in college, she took English because she's Ukrainian. And the English teacher said, you're never going to speak English. I'm not even going to let you take the final exam. You suck. Get out of here. You're getting a D and consider yourself lucky for getting a D. And it was very painful to her and it sucked, you know. And fast forward to today, of course, she lives here. She speaks English fluently. She's married to a dude who speaks redneck.

We got, you know, three, four kids. Three, give or take a child. Yeah. Give her take a child. Sorry, we'll let it that out. Yeah. No, we've got four, but I can't remember because one. One of them sleeps with us and punches me in the face all night, so don't get me sleep. Yeah, and so they all speak English. You know, she speaks, all of our clients speaking. So fast forward to today, that's it. So, like, that's her story, right? So now we needed to use, and the story was if she would have let that pain stay with her,

she would have never learned English, she would have never progressed. So now we need a metaphor to go along with that story. Right, so the metaphor we created was imagine every bad experience. you have in your life is like a rock and you've got two choices. You can drop the rock and leave, or you can take that rock and you can put it in a backpack and carry it around. And the fact of the matter is everyone's going to have negative experiences in your life. And if I would have held on to that rock from my teacher and all of the other rocks, I would have never had the strength to walk to where I am now. So that was her metaphor. Right. So that framework right there is

really, there's a little bit more to it, but that's like the basic framework of, if you master that framework, which ain't hard, you got it. Point story metaphor. Boy, story metaphor, baby. And I learned it from watching Joel Osteen. So I'll dork out like a mofo. So I got a lot of his stuff, transcribed it, went through it, and it was like, I'll be damned. Point, story, metaphor, point, story, metaphor.

And if you look at, you know, a big secret is if someone has what you want, find out what they're doing and try to reverse engineer it, then he has massive influence. Whether you like him or not, who couldn't like that guy, but whatever, you know, some people might I mean, bin Laden, if you're into him, whatever. I mean, we did win, right? But nonetheless, if you look at all of this stuff, it's almost always following that framework. Here's a dude who wasn't professional speaker

built this giant movement on that one simple framework. What a story. And it's funny because as I look back, and the first time I experienced this, and then to have you reinforce it again when we connected was the first. First time I remember understanding this concept was reading through the Bible, I very quickly realized every message is told in stories. Because remember stories, no one remembers lessons.

No. Right? Hey, Frank, look left and right before he crossed the street. Okay, that's a lesson. But if we can give that in a story like we do in the Bible, and look at the Bible. Every year, it's the number one selling book for a reason. It's because it's a story and it drives a point home and every story and it has a lesson in it. So that was reinforced to me in, let's see here, 2001, 2002, I learned about Gary Halpert.

And very much how you say you kind of dork out on things. I go all in. The OCD kicks in and then I go all in and I was like, holy crap, this world of Gary Halbert is fascinating. And I did anything and everything I could to get every single Gary Halbert. and every ad that he had written. And I had this milk crate that I had all of his letters and copy and anything he's ever written. You still got it? I do.

I'll pay to have it digitized. It's already been digitized. Get to me. I'm going to tell you who did it. When he passed away, when he passed away, I was telling this story to Kevin and Bond, his sons. And they're like, wait a minute. I go, dude, you don't understand. I would get evicted from my apartment, and it would just be my clothes, and that crate of Gary Halbert letters that I would take with me to stay on someone's couch.

I didn't care about any of my other possessions. They were just getting in the way. And seeing how he wrote stories and copy, one of them was like this full-page ad that he ran where he was looking for a wife or maybe a wife for the moment. Oh, it was unbelievable. Right. Of course, some of the best copy ever. Yeah, and I think it was in the New York Times or something, right? He had a full-page ad.

Yeah, yeah. It was covered in all this media and stuff. It was incredible. Yeah. And so I'm telling the guys, Kevin and Bond, his sons, after Gary dies, and they're like, dude, can we have that? I said, yeah, absolutely. We want to digitize it.

And so I gave it to them. So, yes, the short answer is, I'll get that to you. Nice. I've got the crate upstairs, and I'm sure they've got the flash drive or something somewhere. I'll get that too. But Gary did such a good job explaining the point story metaphor. analogy and ever since then and then of course discovering you some 11 years ago and seeing how you teach one of the there's what people say and then there's the

watching them right and see how they say it you had a butcher block out I forget if it was mass control that was selling but it was a butcher block table I really need a time machine I have yeah zero recollection of this but I like absolutely but this is a detail that I remember okay holy shit he's just standing behind a butcher block table and just very matter-of-factly in the simplest way possible explaining in this component is going to create this outcome for you. And then when I used it, and then you were so specific, and I saw that even the numbers you used were never around numbers. I'm sure they were very specific. Like, I made $28,643, and you still do that in your

emails, the specificity because it's more believable, there's believability there, versus I made $30,000 from this one campaign. Yeah. Right? So I'm just rambling on about the, value of great communication and communicating through stories where people then can create a bond going back to your rose royce love and loyalty to them so let's backtrack into your life a little further because i think we'd be doing a disservice if people don't understand and realize how horrible you were at selling i'm still terrible at selling would you say that or are you just being modest honestly the whole reason i'm good at building the bond is because i can't sell without the bond. It is impossible for me to sell with it because I don't like selling. I hate it.

You know, so like if someone, if you're like, oh, that person's interested in buying your stuff, I'd be like, okay, well, you get to tell them to buy it. I don't want to go tell them to do. So I have to build all of this desire to make people come to me. I'm still, I'm awful at selling. Can you talk us about an experience where you were selling a credit card machine? Oh, yeah. And I think it's worth sharing with the audience because you articulate it so well. right now and everyone who knows you right now who knows the Frank Kern right now they're like well he can do that but I can't but I know the story of you going door to door and getting kicked out of some unsavory places if you would share that so there's yeah so my first day on that right

so first of all was a car salesman right so like I had this long sorted history of failure in business and finally I ended up as a car salesman because I had exhausted all opportunities so I'd already run a invisible fencing actually it's dog watch like pet containment business into the ground, I'd already run a home services business into the ground, I'd already tried buying and selling used cars unsuccessfully. So I had zero, I still have no education of any kind, no credentials of any kind, I'm not fancy, I don't know shit, except for how to do one thing, you know, that's it. So if people stop wanting money or customers, I'm screwed, you know. So I'm selling cars and hate it because people come onto a car lot and they're

immediately, it's confrontational and I hate confrontational. I have no confrontational bone in my body. You know what I mean? They're like, book you. I'm like, I suck. All right, bye. You know, it's awful. And so I'm like, I got to get out of here. And then I see an ad to go work for a credit card processor, selling their credit card machines. And I thought that meant going to work for MasterCard and Visa. So that's the reason I took the job is I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to work for this big, you know, fancy thing. And people are going to like me because I'm with MasterCard and Visa. I go get trained. And so I'm on the job. And one of the places they send me, is a strip club. And what was the name of the dang? I can't remember. I probably shouldn't say it on camera anyway, but it was like one of the only strip clubs. Where was it?

Middle Georgia, but it was in South Georgia. It wasn't Macon. It was somewhere south of Macon. Like, middle of nowhere, dude. Like, you know, there's the meth lab and the truck stop and the strip joint. And I go in there, and I think the dude had been, like, involved in professional wrestling or something.

And so the first conversation's pretty good, and I'm talking to him for a little while. I'll never forget this. I'm in the guy's desk. His name was John. I think he's huge. Big scary freaking guy. And I'm talking to him. And he's here. His wife's standing there. Moderately good conversation. It's a small office. So like the walls right by my face. And I'm noticing out of the corner of my eye like a picture. I'm like, yeah. So anyway. And then there's full blown 100% of the wife right like eyeball level. Wow. And I'm like, holy grub. I'm guessing she was naked. Completely naked, dude.

I know this woman's medical history at this point, right? So I'm like, okay, I know everything you've ever experienced in your life. I know exactly what's going on. Here we are. And I'm like, okay. So now it's right there. And this is the dude, and he's like, because that's how he was. And then she's just sitting there going, hey, you know, because anyway,

I don't want to make any stereotypical comments or anything. And then they tell me that they have a daughter. And I'm like, I just don't know when to shut the hell up. So I'm like, oh, man, I guess you probably try to keep her away from here, huh? and they're like, no, she comes and works here, like every Saturday, and it just went downhill from there, and the guy ended up running me out of the strip club. So you didn't make that sale. No, I didn't do well there at all.

And it was scary, dude, because it was a big dude, and it was like this biker place, and it was like, son of a bitch. And then the thing that broke the, the straw that broke the camel's back, it was still carried on with it a couple months, like scraping by, you know, like clawing my way to try to make everything. And one day I'm cold calling. I had no idea how to market. So I'm cold calling, going to this restaurant. And I was like, I was not unpopular in school. I was just a fuck up in school. So no one expected anything good of me.

And at this point, all of my high school class had gone on to become people. You know, like graduated med school, law school, or whatever. You know, I go into this restaurant and I see a group of high school or the people I'd gone to high school with that were friendly to me, but always kind of looked at me like the fuck up that I was. So I'm not putting them down for it. You know, they had acknowledged like, this guy is a dope fiend and probably isn't going to end up anywhere.

And I'm in a black suit because it's making Georgia. And I thought I looked like, as this is before, I looked this bad. So I looked really young. I'm like, I have to wear a suit that look presentable, but didn't dawn on me that like a black wool suit in 100 degree heat with 100% humidity is a bad idea. So I'm all sweaty. I'm like, ah.

And I'm coming in and like black suit. Look at these people I graduated with him. I'm like, oh, hey, how's it going? They're like, Jesus. You know, because I looked like I just got off a bender, so I'm going to pouring sweat. And the restaurant owner throws me out. out and he threw me out in front of them.

Because he thought you were. No, because I'm, no one wants a cold call salesperson coming in at lunchtime if he won't own a restaurant. Sure. So he's like, get the hell out of here. I'm busy. Quit bothering me. I'm like, oh, shit.

And they're just like trying to be nice, you know, but kind of like, I knew this guy was the fuck up. And I, man, that was it. So I went back to my little desk and there was no Google. So whatever was before Google. And I entered in like how to sell credit card machines on the internet. I don't know why I was married to credit card. machine idea. The whole thing comes to, I didn't want to talk to people.

What year was this? Like, what's the era here? 1999. 1999, got it. October of 1999. I started. So you enter that in the computer, how to sell credit card machines. It was the escape that pain of rejection. It was the whole thing. I wasn't like, ooh, the internet's the next big thing. It was like, how do I not talk to anybody but still sell something? That's what I was trying to do. Wow. So previous to that, you mentioned about three failed attempts at entrepreneurship, right? And then of course you try and sell. credit card machines door to door, that didn't work out so well. Not at the restaurant, not at the strip club. No.

Even with the owner's wife's full naked picture next year. And she's right there. And I'm trying not to let either one of them know that I can see it, but it's right there. You know, that was really one of the most awkward moments of my life. I'm going to ask you something. I kind of want to just be like, well, ain't that something? But you can't because the dude's right there and he looked like he had injected all of the meth lab.

You know. Gotcha. So I'm like, okay. Understood. So after all these exceptions. experiences, what made you decide that you still want to be an entrepreneur? I mean, that's a lot of failure. That's a lot of rejection. That's a lot of fucking falling down. Oh, yeah. I knew I couldn't be a civilian. So I remember having a conversation with my mother because I'd had my sheer nine to five

jobs or whatever. And it was at the time when I had one of those types of jobs, which I can't even remember. I remember telling her very bluntly, if this is what life is like forever, I don't want to live it. So I'm not cut out for it. I can't do it. I'm not cut out for it. I can't I couldn't be, like even it was a cool shop ever. I just couldn't be like a, I don't mean that like I need to be an outlaw kind of guy or anything like that, but like living in that environment just isn't for me and there's nothing wrong with that environment, you know, but I just am physically incapable of doing it. And I wanted to make a lot of money.

Yeah. Yeah, I really, really wanted to make a lot of money because money to me equals freedom, you know. So it was like I want to not have to do anything that sucks. Don't anyone tell me what to do. Yeah. I don't know one to tell me or bury me. Did you understand the value of money equals freedom back then? Yes, 100%.

Some 18 years ago. Yeah, yeah, always got it. You never had a bad association or thing with money. No, I'm very, very lucky that my grandfather was a self-made multimillionaire. Didn't give me any money. And he really kicked my ass a lot, not physically. Although when I did have a pierced ear for like 20 seconds, he ripped it out of my ear in the parking lot of a seafood place. And I was like, I don't think I could get it.

away with that if my kid did that right now. I don't think I could rip it out of Sasha's ear without going to jail. I'm glad he did, yeah, because I'd look pretty stupid with it. So I was always, I never thought money was bad. I never thought rich people were bad. I never bought into that bullshit in the movies. I thought being a bad person was bad. But I met plenty of bad people that didn't have any money. Sure. Yeah, there's just bad people without it and bad people with it. All right. And I'm going to shift gears just a little bit because I'm just curious your perspective. You're a coach. At the end of the day, you still do coaching and consulting, right? To a degree, yeah, for our private clients.

Right, for your private client. But there's really more I just tell them what to do. Yeah, you know. So I'm like horrible with the mindset stuff and like motivation and everything. So I do diagnostic, you know, what are you trying to accomplish? What are the assets we have to work with? What are the moving pieces? What are the numbers behind everything?

Okay, do this. And then that's, so I guess that's more just yelling. I guess it's more just yelling at people, you know. I'm nice about it. I'm really nice to them. Right. Well, they're paying you to yell at them to give them to give them the advice that they can take on their own.

They have their act together, you know, so I don't do well with, you know, the struggling person or whatever. What happens when you get someone who's limping along? Like, you thought they had claws and fangs, but you realize they don't. They're emotionally, mentally weak for now. And that's not degrading them. That's just where they are. They had a fucked up childhood or a fucked up experience with money, and they thought money's

bad, money's evil because mom and dad never had money. What happens when you come across someone like that and who wants to be your client or who did become your client? If I know that they're like that and they want to become a client, I won't take it. because I can't help them. It's not like I really am, I know I'm running the risk of sounding like an elitist asshole, you know. So it's not like I'm too good for these people. I just can't serve them. So I don't want them to give me money, which they're ultimately going to regret. And I want to be like, I got a pretty good track record. I'm a little bit of an egomaniac when it comes to that. Like I'm the best in the world at this. So I don't want a bad track record because I, you know, I don't want my gas. I don't want my car running badly because I put bad gas in it. And that client would be that bad gas. So I just, I won't take them. I won't take the money. Good for you. Yeah. Good for you.

That's an important lesson that I want to share here on the show because we see so many people taking money for services or a product that they couldn't deliver. In other words, they might promise a unicorn to the right person. Like, hey, if you work with me, you'll get a unicorn. But if the person doesn't have what it takes to create the outcome of a unicorn and they end up with a donkey because why thought Frank Kern was going to do all this thing magically for me and transform my mindset. Yeah, I can't do that.

If I don't have the skills. I wish I did. It would be great. If I did, I'd give them away, I think. I wouldn't charge for that. I'd just be like, here, please use this if you find it helpful. Right. So I'm just curious.

I'd love to get some ideas or some maybe stories of clients who came to you and said, hey, man, here's an outcome I want to produce. You don't have to give their names or if you want to, you can, but just want to hear some industries and then some outcomes that you've helped them produce or they've been able to produce opportunities that they didn't know existed and you were able to show them. I don't know about opportunities that weren't exist. I'll tell you two stories that come to mind. and these are, I'll tell them, I'll preface this by saying,

I'm not mentioning other clients because I've never had the discussion with you, if you're a client going, how come you never talk to about me? I've never gotten your permission to, that's why I don't. So these two people I have their permission. So about five years ago or something, there was a lady named Brooke Castillo that came, and she was making $300,000 a year as a life coach. So she was doing the life coaching. She wasn't like, I'm going to teach you to be a coach who teaches other people to be a coach

so they can teach other people to be coaches, you know, which is funny to me. It amuses me. Keep it coming. That's adorable. But she was an honest-to-god actual life coach. She was making $3,000 a year. And she said, I want to get a million bucks. And I don't have a good filter, you know. So I'm in with her, and she decides to become a client.

I had a group. It was like 12 people. It was exclusively four people who sold high ticket that wanted to scale. And so we have this group. She joins the group and she goes, I have committed to literally do everything you tell me. And I was like, okay, cool. And she goes, I want to grow to a million dollars. And I said, well, I think that's a really good start. And it didn't occur to me how flippant that sounded. And to her testament, and as a testament to her character and her mental toughness, because she is

literally one of the most amazing people I've ever met. She got very inspired by that. Like that switched her mind to, a million dollars a year to this guy's nothing. You think she took that as a challenge? A hundred percent, but not even like, oh, I'll show you. It was more like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I've just been putting this ceiling and maybe I'm making a big deal out of something that is normal and maybe I should start thinking about it as normal. So she had the magic power, which is just to go, okay.

And the first thing we did was we worked on her pricing because her challenge when I started working with her was she was at a capacity issue. She didn't have any problems getting the client. She couldn't serve any more of them. And selling was really easy. And any time selling is really easy, it's a big red flag saying, you're not charging enough. So I was like, well, I don't know, it's double prices.

And she goes, okay, does it? Meet her again. Everything's great. Still the capacity, what should I do? I'm like, I don't know, double prices again? Does it? It hits the million, right? So there's a lot of stuff packed in there.

Number one is, sometimes it's just one simple thing. With hers, it was double pricing, and having the mental toughness to do it and not be afraid of the what-ifs and all of that stuff. Number two is keep it simple. The simplest path is often the best, right? So I didn't go, let's build an elaborate machine or, you know, let's do and product launch around this thing. I was like, all right.

I mean, if you're, if you got, you can't sell any more stuff because too many people are saying, yes, charge more and see what happens until they start saying no or something. And that got her there. And then she's been working me ever since. And I'm happy to report now. she just texted me while she's on vacation, 10 million. 10 million? Yeah, just hit 10 million for the year.

Holy smokes. I know. I'm just curious from my own curiosity. This is a very selfish statement. Maybe it'll help our audience too, I'm sure it will. If her schedule was packed, she can't take on any more clients. Obviously, she had to create a process. I'm a big fan of process.

She created a process where she can scale, still get on more clients. So what did she do to be able to open up her schedule or did she use other people to, how did she get to 10 million? Oh, eventually. Yeah. So she had, she was selling programs where she was helping people with over drinking and overeating. And then this was like year two or year three, we built in continuity. We, like I'm taking any credit for this.

I suggested, hey, maybe you should build in continuity. And she used the magic words, okay. And so she built that onto the business and allowed people. Again, this is still in the like actual delivery of coaching stuff. You know, it's not bizoppy stuff or any of that. Not there's anything wrong with people teaching how to do coaching. I just want to clarify that this, you know, for anyone who's considering working with her, she is an actual highly qualified coach to help you get your act together.

So that's what I'm really trying to point out about her because I really admire her. So we built on a monthly thing for her, and it's called Self-coaching Scholars. And we built a simple little book funnel to liquidate the customer acquisition cost and then a little funnel to sell the continuity. and she kept doing that. Brilliant. Which is the other thing, which is focus. You know, so she's on every list we're on.

She's getting everyone's like, oh, you could make a million dollars doing this, this, this, or this. And she's like, uh-uh, I'm going to keep on doing this little thing. And I think there are 2,000 subscribers now, which doesn't sound like a lot until you realize it's $300 a month. Yeah. Yeah. That is a lot. It's a pretty good. That's a big chunk of change.

Pretty good. Larry David, Kirby, Enthus, do you watch VEP? No, I haven't. And I'm out of stuff to watch. It'll change your life. I can't wait. For the better. Yeah, yeah.

You never know. I didn't tell him what it was going to change it to. That landmine's going to change your life. Right. Yeah, yeah. Watch VEP. If you love Larry David and Curb Your Enthusiasm, you're going to love VEP. It's just foul.

It is foul and hilarious. It's that type of humor. Going back to a word you just said, continuity. If there was one thing I can point to the success in my businesses, it's been continuity. My franchise has monthly royalty fees. The software that we have where we have 2,000 personal trainers paying us $69 a month is continuity. My coaching programs are built on continuity. The supplement lines are all built on continuity.

The ad agency that we have is built on continuity. Explain the value of continuity because one thing I do know about you and the one thing we've done in a parallel fashion is all of our businesses are built on continuity. And I see you advising your clients to do the same. What's the value there? As my other very, very successful client, Carl White would say, why would you ever want people to stop paying you? I mean, that sums it up. Like, why would you want them to stop paying you?

So if the relationship is there and if you can continue to deliver the value, it's crazy not to have continuity. Sometimes it's harder to sell, by the way. Sure. It's easier for me to sell in certain environments, a $38,000 private client engagement than a $400 a month in a circle thing. But I think a lot of that has to do with who I'm talking to. as well. But I mean, for me, and probably for you, there's the psychology of knowing I'm going to get this much money and therefore not having the pressure that could cause you to make bad decisions. Right? So I built, and it took me for, like everyone else that I work with like you, you take

my advice a lot better than I do, which is why you've got so much damn money, right? You've got more money than me because you are better at taking my advice than I am at taking my own advice. So he does have a lot, by the way, more than me. I looked. We don't know that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Well, you know, my first wife.

Gone. She might put us both shame. Yeah. No, I'm just teasing. But she ain't got, yeah, she's great. Wonderful person. So, yeah, continuity. You started before me.

So I started in 2008 with it, got bored with it, turned it off, didn't turn it back on until 2016. Here's my master plan for my continuity. By the way, I was a member of that. I was like, what the fuck, man? I was totally got tired of doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.

Yeah. Literally didn't want to do it anymore. Dumbest thing ever. I'm curious why. Just two friends talking. And look, people, the good idea of fairy comes to people of the stupidest times. And I always say don't make a permanent decision on temporary feelings. And usually the good idea of fairy will come when you're having these temporary feelings.

Well, fuck it. I don't feel like doing it. I'm going to turn it off, right? Why did you turn that off? What was going on? Oh, dude, there was so much going on. So that was 2010, I think, right around there. Number one, I was really tired of being an internet marketing guru.

I don't like doing that. I would much prefer. I've always wanted to actually have an agency. So I got super baked and did about 37 seconds of research and was like, oh, man, I could sell, done for you, lead gen. websites to the professional services industry and then manage those websites on ad words for a spread, right? And so like make 15% of the ad spread. So maybe charge, I forgot what the idea was like 500 bucks or something to set up the site. And then charge them a thousand bucks a month

to manage the ads. And then we'd keep 15% of that or something and grow that way. Seemed great after like 97 rips of super silver haze. You know what I mean? It's like this is going to be killer, dude. So, you know, at that time, I did not really do things like think things out. So I was like, fuck it, I'm going to stop everything. I'm tired of writing this newsletter anyway. I went at least a bank building in La Jolla. I partnered with someone who was very famous as a sales trainer. We hired 40 people to start doing outbound sales to professional services industry. I remember that, yeah. Yeah, just madness. You know, I mean, it was such an era of debauchery. And it totally tanked, by the way.

It was a terrible idea. How in the hell are we going to make any margin, like, on $150 per client per month at scale to support the overhead we were doing? And plus managing those. They have to work. You can't just, like, give me a thousand bucks. Like, the ads actually have to perform, you know. But the real thing was we couldn't sell a damn thing because we were terrible at it. Like, I'm not a good salesperson.

And my sales trainer, partner, trained our Craigslist hired random off the street. salespeople for about 12 hours, and that was the last that really worked together in that business. So it was a debacle. So that's why I stopped it. I was like, eh, I'm magic. I have magic powers. I'm Frank Kern. It says so right there in my sales letter about myself that I wrote. I'm a genius. I can do anything. That's fascinating, man. So what happens then that you decide I'm not going to be an internet marketer because so many people might remember you as the guy who was doing launch after launch, and there was a group of guys. that we all looked up to, bought from, did business with, but then you went and recreated yourself.

And that's kind of what I want to end this episode on, is recreating yourself. Like when I got into this industry, I was bald. Literally had, I would shave my head. I was bald. And there's still people who send me like DVD pictures of my first product, close clients, from 2002, 2003, where I'm bald. and then I grew my hair out and had a goatee. Then I changed it up again and grew a beard.

Then I cut my hair short again and constantly recreating. And I found that if I don't recreate, I'll soon perish, both in the way I market, my business, I guess even my appearance. And I've noticed how you've reinvented yourself from the product launch, internet marketer, surfer, right? dude, long hair jeans, one of my favorite stories of a launch video. And again, see this story, I couldn't tell you what fucking product you were launching. This is a great lesson for everyone watching and listening to this.

I don't know the product that you were launching. I remember the story where you are walking down the street in La Jolla in your jeans. I even remember I think they were like lucky brand jeans and you said, hey, I want to show you something and you were showcasing your lifestyle and you said how you went under something to get closer to the beach. and as you went under this fence or bar, you tore your pants. Oh, yeah, yeah. Do you even remember this?

Oh, totally, but I didn't. I did the old thing. I had Andrew zoom in on my elbow and it looked like a butt. And then to the camera, like, ah, yeah, I totally remember that. Yeah, but the point is like, everyone watching, I know this was like, what the fuck? Like, why am I hearing this story and why do I care? Which then led me to buy whatever the product was because I remember buying it. You should buy it again.

I should, not a continuity basis. Exactly. And then you can stop the fucking continuity. Yes. But truly, you've recreated yourself so many times reinvented yourself. Is there any value in that? Is that deliberate? Is that something that just evolution?

Weirdly, it wasn't. Yeah, it was evolution. So during that era of all this product launches and all that stuff, I was very unhappy. I was unhappy in my home life and I was very, very intoxicated. And that really, the point I'm definitely not making it. it's hey, you should get blasted in market. It's like you can do it. The point is that if I could do it in that condition

at the scale at which I did it, it demonstrates the opportunity we have right now because the reach of the internet is so strong and it's so easy to get in front of people. If I was buying television spots of those videos, it wouldn't work. People would be like, who in the heck is this moron? I think they were saying that anyway

and then like some of them bought stuff. Sure. Enough of us bought stuff where it made sense. Yeah, but the story of the reinvention is I got married to Natalia. I stopped drinking constantly. You know, I mean, you knew me back then, do you? I'd start drinking like two or three in the afternoon, chain smoke weed. If there was a drug or two laying around, I would take it and then find out what it was after I had taken it.

I remember some conversations we had when I'd come out there and visit you. Yeah, and it'd be like, I don't know what I'd do. You know, and so you take that out, and then I moved away from the beach, which caused my hair to no longer be white. long as I wasn't in the sun and the ocean for four hours a day. And the reason I have this short haircut is because I went, this is a true story. I have really bad generalized social anxiety disorder. Like I actually went, got my brain scan, took this assessment, and the prefrontal cortex part or whatever it is, your fight or flight thing, mine is lit up all the time on 10 out of 10. And my brain sees humans and thinks they're angry at me. And so everything I see, I have to filter

through that and then like and so there's this whole process i'm unconscious of it but it's like so to make the story a point go to the barbershop lefties barbershop in pacific beach i think i chose it because it was called lefties and i was like i'd already gotten a little bit my hair cut off and the lady that gave me the first haircut awesome i was like would you please give me that same it was like a richard branson style like long but like you know well cut oh we do that again she's like great gives me a tony robin surre 1984 like big helmet i'm like shit So I'm not going back to her. I choose lefties because it sounded cool.

Walk into lefties. Never been there in my life. Three barber chairs, a bunch of Pacific Beach surfer dudes, you know, like mean-looking guys. And the guy's like, all right, come on. Bob will take you. Bob's like, what do you want? And I don't want to be like, well, I was kind of hoping I could look like. So I'm like, fuck, I don't know.

And the dude next to me says, give me a number one fade. And I said, I'll take a number one fade. Didn't know what a number one fade was. Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, what you got right here is number one fakes. Because once you number one fade it, you ain't going back. Ain't going back. No.

I mean, then you got to go through the whole. They say that about me, too. Yeah. Yeah, no, they don't. They don't say, they don't say once you go be? No. But I tell you, I mean, I had that meat of yours this morning. It was something.

That was something. Yeah. Just keep looping that in the edited version of this, I think. Hey, let me ask you something. The brain scan that you did. Yeah. Your fight or flight component is always firing. Yes.

Might be a personal question. You don't want to answer it. You don't have to. Do you know how that happened? What triggered that? What made that happen? Why is it always on? Yeah, I have a theory, and it's called LSD.

Whoa. Yeah. So like so many people, you know, everyone was experimented with hallucinogenic. I had my first dose of acid when I was 16. Immediately loved it. And read somewhere that if you take 300 doses of LSD, then you're legally insane. So between 16 and... in the end of high school, it was my mission to take 300 doses of it, to see if I would be

legally insane. And so I did, and then I went to college and became a serious LSD user. So when you alter your brain that much and you have experiences at the level of intensity that one will when you take mega doses of acid, I think it can potentially weird you out a little bit. Oh, shit. Yeah, I never knew that. I think I kind of rode the lightning in a little too long there. Rote it a little too long, man. Because I would deliberately put myself in really intense situation. So I'd take all this acid and then go to the grocery store at three in the afternoon

by myself just to see if I could hold it together, you know, and just be like, you know, I mean like really, really flipping out in there, but just like trying to see how well I can hold it together. Looking back, what do you think you were thinking? I was thinking, I really hope this person doesn't know how fucked up I am right now. And if I can get out of here, I will have won this idiotic game that I'm playing with myself. So it wasn't some attempt to self-sabotage? Not at all.

No. I love every second of it. Okay. Yeah, it was a great time. Most of the... I'm not going to say good for you, but... No, I mean, yeah. But no, it wasn't like, I hate my life.

I loved it. Yeah, it was fun. God, I probably shouldn't... Right. We're not encouraging this. Don't go LSD, 300 doses, any of that shit. That was the start. Yeah, that was before I got serious about it and moved out of my house with my parents.

and was in an environment where I could get a lot of it. There's a component that all type A, obsessive, relentless entrepreneurs have about themselves. Jesse Itzler was standing right where you are. He wasn't looking as cool. No, nowhere near as cool. Sorry, dude. When you got it, you got it. I mean, you know.

And I go, Jesse, you love doing these wacky little, like, physical challenges. What causes this? He goes, let me tell you something with his little New Yorker accent. He goes, one day I went into a sauna and there was a guy sitting in it. And he goes, I don't know how long. No, I take that back. He went into a sauna. There was no one in it.

He goes in this hot sauna, steamy, hot. Some dude comes in and Jesse tells himself, I'm not going to leave until that motherfucker leaves. Right. I already love this guy. Right. Yeah. Right. And it's the same thing of you taking all this LSD and then three in the afternoon.

I'm going to go to the grocery store. Yeah. And I'm going to see. if I can hold it together. And just, yeah, buy like some apples. You know, make eye contact with the cash here and count the change.

And like, yeah, it was really intense. The lesson here, and I've had my own versions of that, the lesson here to me is that it's okay to live in extremes. It's okay. Not necessarily using LSD again. We're not promoting drug use here, but what I'm saying is the best entrepreneur

is the most successful people I know, the change makers, impact makers, legacy builders, empire growers, live in the extremes of life. Jesse running a 100-mile ultramarathon and then going into a steam room and saying, I'm not leaving until that motherfucker leaves first. Or you take an LSD and try to actually be functional in the grocery store at 3 in the afternoon. It's okay to live in extremes, and that's the only way you're going to achieve the lifestyle that you have, that I have, the freedom that we have, and the impact we get to make.

I also get to see how much you get to help people and know the cost. causes that you're connected to like the Honor Foundation. Yeah, a big deal there. It'd be really worthwhile to talk about that and our friend Joe Musselman. What's the Honor Foundation? Honor Foundation is an amazing organization that I just support financially and help them with their message when they ask me to. And what we do, again, I work with people and I always take ownership, you know what I mean?

I feel like I'm representing a company that I help, so it's not an ego thing. It's more like a teamwork thing. What honor.org does is they take retired special forces operators, typically Navy SEALs, that have done like 20 years in special forces operations in the military and are ready to now transfer into civilian life and teach them business-y stuff. That's a terrible pitch for it, but you know, we're talking to business people, so you get it, right? So they get them up to date on like how things work in the business world and get them ready to

go out into the workforce. And it's like a factory for Superman and women. It's unbelievable. The people that come out of this thing. It's like, I tell you, nothing will make you realize that we're just not shit, like, going and hanging out with a bunch of people that were special forces operators for 20 years or whatever. You had the opportunity to go out and shooting rifles or sniping or something, right, with them?

No, there's a, they're, what the heck did I do? No, I haven't done anything fun with them. There is something they wanted to jumping out of planes. That's what it was. I didn't jump out of a damn plane. Right, right. Oh, I know what it was. They gave you something that they had the target or, the, yeah.

or whatever it is they shoot at. Yes. Holy smokes. Super cool. Well, Frank Kern, how does someone learn more about you, find out more about you, connect with you? Well, you could go to frankkern.com and see a very outdated page. If you opt in there, you will get, I think, one email. Or if you're interested in becoming a branding client, go to kernbranding.com and enjoy what might

be the ugliest website in the world, built it myself. Thank you very much. But it still works. It's power in the company. So my man. Well, hey, thank you so much for being here imparting the message with us. And truly, I know you probably don't do well accepting compliments, but let me just tell you this, that over the decade that I've known you, not only through the products and services and the coaching that I've gotten from you in the past, but also just by watching you. I've learned so much and it's impacted my business, literally in millions of dollars in positive ROI. And that's like firsthand experience. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you for listening and watching to this show. guys, go and build your empires, make a massive impact, and be a change maker like you are. We'll see you guys later. Thank you so much for joining us for another amazing episode of the Empire podcast.

Now, the greatest compliment that you can give to us is liking, loving, and sharing this episode with all of your friends. So please go to iTunes and give us a five-star rating and then share it online and social media with everyone that you know. And make sure to tag us because we love hearing from Empire listeners. And if you own a business that's doing half a million dollars or more in annual revenues, and you know it's got massive potential, and you like myself and Craig Ballantine to help you scale it by 5x, 10x, and 20x in the shortest amount of time possible, then you might be a great candidate for the Empire Mastermind Program that we have. To learn more about the Empire Mastermind Program, go to bedroskulian.com forward slash empire.