Begin Again with Davina McCall - Bobbi Brown: This is What Starting Over at 60 Really Looks Like

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, makeup mogul and bestselling author Bobbi Brown takes us through her remarkable journey of reinvention. From building an iconic beauty empire to selling her namesake brand, Bobbi opens up about the pivotal moments that shaped her career and personal life. She shares the challenges of stepping away from the company she created and the unexpected freedom that followed. Bobbi discusses her decision to start over at 60, launching her clean beauty brand, Jones Road, and the powerful lessons she learned about aging, health, and maintaining passion in her 60s. The conversation delves into her family dynamics, including the deep bond she shares with her husband Steven, the impact of her mother's mental health struggles on her upbringing, and the complex path to self-empowerment. Bobbi also reflects on her entrepreneurial spirit, the ethical values that guide her brands, and how to stay true to oneself despite external pressures. With candor and wisdom, Bobbi Brown offers an insightful perspective on how to navigate transitions, challenge societal expectations, and redefine success on your own terms. Bobbi: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justbobbidotcom/ "Still Bobbi": https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/still-bobbi-9781526687722/ Jones Road: https://www.jonesroadbeauty.com/ 👉 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beginagain/ 🎥 Watch more on TikTok: @beginagainpod (00:01:25) Introduction to 'Still Bobbi' and Her Journey (00:03:19) Growing Up as the Eldest Child (00:04:45) Meeting Her Husband, Steven (00:05:40) Her Mum’s Breakdown and Bipolar Disorder (00:07:04) The Bond with Her Father (00:08:44) Struggling in School with ADD (00:12:12) Leaving High School to Pursue Makeup (00:14:50) Finding Her Way in the Fashion Industry (00:19:25) Becoming an Entrepreneur in Beauty (00:25:25) Motherhood and Partnership with Steven (00:30:32) The Creation of Bobbi Brown Cosmetics (00:34:02) Selling the Brand and Moving On (00:35:36) Adobe Ad (00:36:45) Ancient & Brave Ad (00:37:53) Navigating a 25-Year Non-Compete Clause (00:39:05) Health, Fitness, and Living in Her 60s (00:40:56) Brand Ethics and Losing Influence (00:47:01) Leaving Bobbi Brown and Starting Fresh (00:54:59) Rebuilding Herself with a Life Coach (00:58:44) Launching Jones Road Clean Beauty (01:05:17) Confidence, Gratitude, and Being a Woman in Business (01:09:03) The Future of Jones Road and Family Involvement (01:12:40) Bobbi’s Journey Is Far From Over Sponsored by: Adobe - https://Adobe.Ly/Davina Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet and use code BEGINAGAIN for 20% off your order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was here to celebrate the 25 years of Bobby Brown. I walked into the office and she just said, we're canceling your work contract. And I went, you're firing me? I've always loved makeup, but I didn't think about a career in it until I saw a chemist. He told me that he knows how to make lipsticks. I told him exactly what I wanted and he made it for me.

And then I said, I bet I could sell this. So it was us. And I think Mac was in the market back then. You got to a point where we were beating them in the stores. We sold to Estillotter with a 25-year non-compete. It meant that I couldn't do anything in beauty. You kind of feel like you got handcuffs, but I had complete autonomy.

It was the golden ears until it wasn't. He said, we want Bobby out of the day-to-day, but we want her to be the face of the brand. And I left. I'm like, well, those days are over. I felt like a failure. But actually, Estée Lauder did you a favor. I literally rebuilt myself.

The best thing that ever happened to me. We launched Jones Road. the day after my 25-year-9 compete was up. I was 63. Many people later in life of something they've always wanted to do, but a failure later in life is horrible. I mean, I don't feel my age, and I don't think about it.

And I have this saying, So what, now what? I love that. And what if? And why not? God, I mean, that is amazing. For people out there who are thinking, I'm stuck, how did you do it?

You know what? The truth is... Um, Bobby. Yes. I'm really happy to have you here. I try and bring on great change makers or people have pivoted in their lives, and you are a brilliant example of that. I've just read Still, Bobby. It is so good.

Well, it matches your walls. It looks beautiful with the walls. I mean, like, oh, my, like so aesthetically and the table and everything. You knew. I knew. aesthetically pleasing, but also just a really, really uplifting, punch-the-air read, but also at times, and this is why I knew you'd be amazing, quite a painful read of what you had to go through in order to get to where you are today

and find out who you are. It's been a long old journey, right? But it's funny, when people say, you know, you had a very challenging upbringing, a very, whatever word they say, I'm like, it was a wonderful, It was loving and my parents loved me. They were young and they had some growing up challenges. And yes, there was mental illness in my family, my mother, my brother. But it didn't define me. Like, as some people, it does.

It didn't. Do you think that the older we get is made easier by the fact that we can look back at things with a slightly different pair of glasses on? I don't think necessarily because you look back. at it. I just think the older you get, you realize what is a waste of your energy suck. It's not worth it. And, you know, the, I haven't read the book yet, but Mel Robbins let them. I don't know what, but that's, yes, let them. They want to be like that. Fine. I don't have to deal with it. And you realize what's important. I think what's quite funny is you understood Mel Robbins book just there. All right. I didn't have to read it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, let's just talk about your childhood. So you, you have a brother and a sister or had a brother and I have a sister, yes. But you're the oldest.

Right. What was your experience of being the oldest childlike? You know, it was, I never really thought about it. I mean, if I had to choose, I would choose to be the oldest again. You know, I never had a great relationship with my younger brother. We fought from the second he came home. And my sister and I were like mother and daughter. I mean, she's definitely my best friend.

Oh, God, that's so nice to hear. Yeah, and we're very different. I always say she's a nice version of me. She is so nice. She is just, she can't help herself. She was a special ed teacher, turned massage therapist. Now she's a health coach. And so she grew up, you know, watching my mom and her issues where I kind of followed my passion and kind of flew the nest.

She stayed around and took care of a lot of things. And it's no secret that she's, you know, someone that nurtures. other people for a living. How old was your mom when she had her first breakdown and how old were you? I was in seventh or eighth grade. What age is that? I don't even know. 13.

Oh, okay. 13, 14. Yeah. And so my mother was 20 years older than me. Never, never showed anything before. And then, you know, for time afterwards after her nervous breakdown, we didn't, no one talked about mental illness. No, it wasn't done in that.

No. Was it? No. And when she had her nervous breakdown, had to go in the hospital, it was right around the time when one flew out of the cuckoo's nest came out. Nurse Ratchet. Right. So that's what I was watching, you know, on the way to, you know, during the time where I would go visit her at night. Yeah.

And it looked like that. There were people way crazier than she was. You mentioned that she was on lithium. And that is such a tough drug to see someone on. because it's a disassociative. Oh, it's unbelievable. What's that like for you as a young girl? Well, she had this depression.

I mean, I hadn't seen the manic. She hadn't been manic then. It just started out with depression. So that was hard seeing a different mom, you know, sitting there making pot holders, you know, waiting for her group therapy. And, you know, she had been through a lot. She wasn't diagnosed yet, but they treated her. And she did have some shock treatment, you know. Yes.

That was done in those days, wasn't it? Yeah, that's what they did. And it took a while until she actually got a diagnosis, a proper diagnosis of being bipolar and understanding that it was a chemical imbalance. Right. And she took medicine for that in the end. She did. Kind of did slightly regulate her.

Yes, it did. She went on and off things because she didn't really like the feeling on medicine. She liked the manic things much more than she liked the calming things. She just, my mother loved, yeah It's quite interesting, I didn't know it was possible to sort of enjoy the Oh, I'm on it. Are you kidding? You know, you don't think you have a streak that like you remember those crazy evenings or nights or things you've done, you know, that are so much fun

and exciting. Yeah. She loved that and, you know, when all of a sudden it was like that, she wasn't having as much fun. And it was a dullness of her senses when she was on the vacation. Yeah. I mean, it is quite, are heavy, isn't it? Heavy duty. Right. Those moments when you were going, because I think, am I right in saying it was just you that went to go and visit her in the evenings because your siblings were a bit too young, really?

That you and your dad really bonded. Bonded. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, first of all, he told me how important it was that I was there, you know, being in charge, that I was, you know, taking, helping him with some of my mom's, you know, position in the house. And so that made me feel very important.

And then we would just talk about not even just my mom, but everything. And it was special bonding, you know, father and daughter time. It's quite weird, isn't it, in retrospect, when you look back at things in your life and you, it was a terrible time because of your mom's illness, but also beautiful time because of this time you spent with your dad that none of your other siblings ever got. Right. And it's funny. when I started writing this book and the writer, you know, my ghost writer at the time would ask me all these questions, and he made it sound like it was so awful. And I'm like, well, it really wasn't. And then I had to stop and think, am I blacking out all these things that happened to me? Or have I moved past them or around? I think I move around them. You don't move past things. I just move around them. And so I think, you know, for me being out of my hometown of the suburbs of Chicago, being in New York City, you know, being in college, all of those things allowed me to soar.

And for someone like me that wasn't a good student in high school, and all of a sudden, I saw this world where I could be, where I felt listened to, I felt successful, I felt part of it, I understood it, was very different than sitting in a classroom, not paying attention to someone talk about science. What do you think it was that you struggled with in a sense? school environment? I mean, I think, I mean, I didn't struggle in the school environment. I had a ton of friends. Yeah. I, you know, I got C's, some B's, and occasional some Ds. You know, it's funny, I wonder if the Bs and the Ds were equal. But I was an average student. I know now I had a learning disability. I am

very ADD. And if I had a teacher that was boring, I just zone out, you know? Or if it's like, I can't still to this day, I cannot read a pamphlet. to know how to put something together, but if someone shows me, I could figure it out. So, you know, I've learned that I'm just a visual learner. Yeah, a lot of people are. And a lot of friends, you know, or women I know will come to me and say they're struggling with their,

you know, they have two daughters. One of them is getting all A's and the other one is struggling. I'm like, let's see, does one of them paint and draw and do crafts? Yes. Guess what? You've got to learn to parent them different. Did you get parented differently? Did they understand?

Yeah. I think eventually they did, you know, they decided that I was never going to be a good student, so they stopped punishing me. And they said, you know, she'll probably only be, excuse me to all the people, she'll only be either a mother or a teacher. Well, first of all, I am both. And much more. Yeah. I mean, I think it is these moments when you're being kind of told,

that you're not quite achieving what people want you to achieve. And then it slightly lit a fire in my belly of like, you'll see. Yeah. I knew I had something to offer, but I wasn't quite sure what it was. And I realize I still to this day, like why? Like my friends who are my age who maybe aren't working anymore say, why do you think you have to do this? I don't think I have to do it.

I just want to do it. Yeah. This is what I'm doing. You guys, why do you want to do it? go play cards in a room because you want to and that's okay I don't um Bobby there's so much proof now as well I'm I know I'm going a bit past and present and past and present but that's how I roll but there's so much proof now that um actually keeping your mind active for as long as you possibly can is incredibly good for your brain health well then I'm going to live to 300 because I

cannot shut my brain off I'm sure you can't either I mean honestly it's like um Working is good for us. Yeah. And if you enjoy what you do. And it's not even just working. When I have downtime, I'm so bad. I'll sit there with my iPad and I will just be on Instagram and I just get all these ideas and connect with people. I have a social life where I DM people so we could start being DM friends.

So, and I find it so invigorating and interesting. And I still am hungry for learning and I'm still hungry for trying new things. keeps you young. I guess. I mean, I don't feel my age and I don't think about it. I, you know, it's funny that people always come to me for longevity tips, you know, beauty. I don't, when I create products, I don't think about age. I just think about, you know, whatever. So yeah, you get older, your skin's drier, but there's some young girls that have dry skin. So how old were you when you left to go to college? I guess. Well, I left my senior year of high school. I left early to follow a boyfriend to a school in Wisconsin.

So I guess I was 17. Yeah. And then we both transferred to a school in Arizona. And that lasted a year. And then I transferred out of the relationship. I transferred out of the relationship. Well, when you read the book, you'll read the story that the one boyfriend fell in love with his other boyfriend, realized he was gay.

but the only problem is I fell in love with the same straight partner and he fell in love with me. So it was a little triangle that kind of took its own life. Wow, that is quite something. And then you ended up going to study makeup and for film and things like that. So like tell me about that next step. Has you always been keen on makeup and beauty? I've always loved makeup, not thinking about it as a career, but loving it because it transformed my mother.

It made me feel prettier. I love the whole art of putting it on, looking at color. But I didn't think about a career in it until my mother sat me down and asked me the most important question of my life. If today was your birthday, you could do anything you want. What would you want to do? And I said I wanted to go to the department store and look at makeup. She said, well, there it is.

You should be a makeup artist. Yeah. And I said, I didn't want to go to beauty school. She said, I'm sure there's a college somewhere. And there wasn't. But I found Emerson College that let me create my own major. So there wasn't a major in makeup. And now I know that starts your thinking about doing things differently and becoming an entrepreneur.

I think what I love about, well, how old. were you when you met Stephen? I was 30. 30 and a half. So you'd been through college. I'd been through college. You'd done your makeup. You were working in the fashion industry.

Can I just say, channeling a bit of Carolyn Bissette, there's a picture of you and I was like, wow, yeah, with the hair at the desk and everything. I was like, she was one of my beauty role models. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. So stylish. Simple. Simple.

Simple. Yeah. I always, which is kind of the French thing. I always love the simplicity of things. Yeah. And you went into the fashion industry, but how was that for you? Because that is a really interesting, crazy. I mean, I worked in the kind of modeling side of it.

I loved it. It was super fun. But how was it? I mean, it was super fun, super interesting. I always, I often felt like a fish out of water. Here is this normal girl from the suburbs of Illinois, Chicago, in this studio with the photographer, you know, Gieniel and this fantastic, oh my God,

and all these fabulous people running around. I mean, that was not the life I came from, but I loved it. I soaked it up. I was a sponge. I learned a lot. And then, you know, fabulous. people would come in and out of my life.

One of them, we already talked about our mutual friend, Sam McKnight, who was one of the most talented hairdressers I'd ever worked with, but he also was one of the nice ones. Yeah. And we are still friends to this day. So, you know, you're in the fashion world. I'm quite interested to know how a young girl from Chicago, quite innocent, gets as far as you did, as quickly as you did, in what is a really competitive industry. So I mean, I know obviously you're good, but...

Well, I wasn't that good in the beginning. I wasn't, I got better. I wasn't that good in the beginning. I was more trying to figure out how to do this thing instead of realizing I know how to do it. I should just do it my way. And a lot of business and a lot of industries, it's not just your talent. It's how you act, how people perceive you, who you know, you know.

If I was not a night, like I always arrived on time. I always said hello to everyone. I always asked questions. What kind of makeup should we do for this? And I think people like to have me around. I was helpful. Someone, you know, I help people hold the silver reflector card. Yeah.

I went and got people water. I noticed things were happening and I tried to help. You know, like once worked with the celebrity, none of the clothes fit that this, you know, these guys brought, the stylist brought. And she was, you know, middle-aged, probably in her 50s. And I just said, guys, go to the gap and just get some white shirts. And they got some white shirts, and that's what ended up on the cover.

Just a white button-down shirt. And she borrowed my little pearl earrings I had on it at the time. And, you know, none of the clothes they brought fitter. And that destroys the shoot. And it destroys her confidence. And it destroys her confidence. Yeah. Yeah.

God, I mean, that is amazing. What a gift you were. that day. And I mean, there's been other things, you know. So I think I started to build my posse, my, you know, my people. And it was also, I said yes to a lot of the jobs eventually with the people I liked. And I said no to some of the jobs that I had done before with people that were rough. Like in the fashion industry, there was, it was okay to be not nice. Yes. It was Okay. It was bad. I walked out of a couple makeup tests because the stylists were so rude or the hair or the designers were rude. And, you know, I was just like, not working with you. No. You can't treat people like this. But sometimes those people, and we all know who they are, really, were very high up, big name photographers. So actually for a young, new makeup artist, that's pretty balsy.

You know, it was amazing. The ones that were most successful were nice. Isn't that interesting? Yes. The bigger they were, the nicer and the better they were. Yeah. God. And it's really the mid-insure people. Yes. Yeah. It's true of life, really, isn't it?

Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. But it taught me, like, when people come around me, other makeup artist or someone that wants to meet me or work for me, I'm like, I get it. I was there. I get it, you know. And I know they're like nervous and they want to either take a picture. And I just said, do you want to take a picture?

And they're like looking at me. I'm like, yeah, smile. But also I think that's, you've got empathy. I do. You remember how it felt. I do. You remember who you were. And that's a really attractive thing, I think.

So what was it that triggered Bobby the entrepreneur? Like when did you start believing actually? Do you know what? I think I could actually make something better than this. or I want to do something different. Well, I never thought, wow, this could be something. Or I never thought, oh, I want to do this and not that. I saw at a shoot, a chemist, and I talked to him.

Oh, yeah, the pharmacist's straight. I mean, so he made me a lipstick. And, you know, we sent it back and forth. But wait, he made you. Oh, so you'd had a little chat with him. I had a chat with you. He made you lipsticks. And he told me that he knows how to make lipsticks.

And I told him exactly what I wanted. I showed him what color I wanted. And he made it for me. You know, we sent a bit. back and forth a couple times. It was too greasy, too dry. We finally got it, and I said, oh my God, I love this. And then I said, I bet I could sell this. But then I realized not everyone will look good in that color because people have different color lips and some people like reds or pinks or oranges. So I, you know, came up with like an idea of different people's

lip color. And that was the first original 10. And that's how we started the company. And he went into business with you, didn't he? Well, the deal was, our business deal, which was all done on the phone. He said, I will supply the lipsticks. You sell them. You ship them. That was the whole story. And whenever we ran out, I'd call and said, we need more. And that was, you know, year, year and a half. You know, he would send me, I don't even think I looked at the books, but he just, I would get checks. Not a lot, but enough, you know, for grocery money. And I was still working makeup artist. But what I love about you is that you met somebody, you saw an opportunity, and you took it. And there are lots of people. This is, you know, the first sort of vision of an entrepreneur that you see like it's an opportunity, but you act on it. And this is part

of a begin again moment, I think, for me that other people might be listening. Because we're going to talk about all the many times that you've done this again and again and again. But But many people later in life have got all the knowledge, the experience, sometimes the finances, to do something they've always wanted to do. But it's frightening. Right. And failure later in life is hard. And you...

I think I'm fearless. I think you are. But it's funny, I'm not fearless about everything. I'm very, very fearful when it comes to safety, my kids, when they travel. Even when they were little, they're going to fall. my granddaughter, I drive her mother crazy. I'm like, get another lock for that door. She's like, would you stop?

My kid's fine. So I'm not reckless, but I'm not afraid of doing something, especially around work or, you know, the kids' school fundraiser. Or I just see these things. And I have this saying, I always say to myself, so what, now what? I love that. And the other one I really love is, what if? What if? And why not?

Why not? Why not? I'm a friend of mine that's got why not tattooed here. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, mine's in here. I don't have to tattoo it.

Yeah. So good. Yeah. lady wrote about the lipstick, so we got a lot of orders. Can we just talk about the glamour lady? Because that is amazing. The editor. So I had lunch with the beauty editor, Glamour magazine.

And she was, you know, a friend. She had a new baby. I had a new baby. So we just got together to talk. And she said, what else is going on? I said, oh, I'm working on this little thing. And I told her, she goes, can I write about it? I'm like, why would you want to write about it?

Duh. Now I know it's called PR. Right? So she wrote about it and we got a lot of calls. And then I don't know, and I don't remember if it was before the Bergdorf lady I met. Yeah. I think it was after. And then during that time, we became friends with this couple and they brought us to a party.

He was in the cosmetics business. She was at a PR firm. And the woman who invited everyone to the party went up to me and I gave her a gift. Thank you for inviting me. She goes, oh, I'm a big fan. I remember saying, how do you know who I am? She goes, oh, I'm in the beauty business. I'm the cosmetics buyer of Bergdorf.

And I said, oh, I'm working on this line. And she goes, oh, you know, we should take it. And that's when we joined with this couple as partners and had to find a much more traditional way to have a business deal. 50% does not work. No. Yeah. So we had to redo the lipstick.

And we found a lab. Do you want to how I found the lab? Yeah, go on. I was in an elevator in my building, and a woman came, a door opened, she comes in. I said, hi. Sharon, her name is says, hi. And I said, oh, do you live here? Yes. And I said, what do you do? She said, I work at a cosmetics lab.

Stop it. I said, do you have a card? And they did my lipsticks for decades. I mean, but this is what I mean you don't ask. If you don't ask, you wouldn't know. Right? Right. Yeah. You're not supposed to ask as many questions anymore. My kids have informed me. Like if you get into a taxi cab, you can't ask the driver where they're from. It's politically incorrect. So, you know, I'm very curious. But I still do that. Yeah, I do too because I find people's story interesting. Me too. You know.

I'm still asking people. Oh, that. All right. Well, I am too and they're not wrong. And they quite like talking about. Right. Of course. I mean, my grandparents came from another country. Yes, exactly. So you've done this lipstick nine. Bergdorf Goodman, it's all go. You're in a department store. On a table. And you know what I love? You also had your first child.

You're carrying your child. You're at Bergdorf Goodman. You're like bossing at life. Oh, I was pretty much. I was a deer in the headlights. I didn't know what a boss was. And no, I was deer in the headlights. I was wearing a big Armani green jacket that was way too long for me that my dad bought me for my 30th birthday.

I thought I was, you know, Melanie Griffin and Working Girl. Cool. Yeah. And I had this baby. But you know what? As soon as the event was over, of course, I was exhausted and depleted. Yes. Went right home, put my mom outfit on, you know, if I, probably my robe.

And I just was like, all right, now what? My second job, being a house. house mom. And is this the point where Stephen starts going? Yes, you can. He always. Yeah, because first of all,

we've been married 37 years and every time I'd say, oh my God. Can I glist? Yeah. And every time I would say, oh my God, Stephen, I have to do this and this and this and this. He goes, stop. You're not doing it now. You're sitting here now.

Stop, relax. You know, and he's helped me a lot in things like that. But it's his way of, he doesn't realize it pushing me to do more. Yeah. But because he knows you. Yeah. Well, he didn't know me that well.

We got engaged in three months. Yeah, and like married three, what, three or six months later? Six months later. Yeah. Done and dusted, nine months. Yeah, we were done. And then I got pregnant on our one-year anniversary. Amazing.

But I think it is possible to meet somebody and know them. Yeah. Yeah, it was comfortable the second I met him. It was like this. Right? It was like this. Yeah. Do you know him in the same way? I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think so. What would he say about you? If he was to go, oh, Bobby does this for me that nobody else can do? I don't think he's ever maybe thought of that. I just think we are like incredibly great partners. Yeah. You know. And after 37 years.

And trust me. To still say that like you just did. Yeah. And trust me, I annoy him. Oh yeah. I mean. Right. No, but in ways that I'm not always present.

You know, I'm constantly, I've got so much going on. And, you know, I try. I really try to be present. Like, so he'll ask, he'll say something or I'll ask him a question, he'll answer me. Five minutes later, I ask him the same question. He's like, you aren't listening. And I'm like, no, I wasn't. I wasn't.

I said, but I'm really, Stephen, I'm listening now. And, you know, sometimes he'll tell me in other times he'll say forget it. So, you know, he's, he keeps me at my toes. But it sounds like you do with him. I mean, it sounds like he's quite in control of everything and he's quite solid in him. and that you respect him, but you're also, because of what a go-getter you are, he respects you. Oh, he totally does. Do you know what I mean?

He does. It feels very balanced. It is very balanced, you know. It is, you know, it is very balanced. I do say yes to him more than I would like to. You know, he is, like he wanted, I did say no to him tonight. He wanted to go to the theater at 7 o'clock tonight. I'm done working at 6.

I didn't sleep well last night And I just, I didn't even know what play it was I just was like But also I think that's like You've got to take care of yourself Yeah And if you can't take care of yourself mentally physically

Then you can't Take care of anybody else Right That's 100% true When you're a matriarch Right But as a working Makeup artist mom

I would have to No matter what, turn myself like this. Like, I'd be in a store during a personal appearance, and there's hundreds of women, you know, taking pieces of you and the makeup artist. And then my husband would come in with the babies on the stroller. I couldn't just say, I'm tired. I want to lay on the floor. I just had, you know, I had obligations that I wanted to meet, which was to be a mom and to be a partner to my husband. He wanted to go do something. I went. And it did end up giving me like infusion being with the family and being quote unquote normal, right? Because

you're with when you're in an event and you've got all these people pining over you. Quite mad, right? And it's not normal. No. You know, you do it. I mean, you know the feeling. And then when it's done, you're like, you're depleted. Depleted. So Bobby Brown Cosmetics. Yes. You've heard of them? Yes. So how, how, how was that born? And, was it like actually do you know I want to expand I can do more no I never said that what did you it just happened um did it just happen well we launched in burgdorf goodman you know the story is which I could tell in my sleep is we thought we would do 100 lipsticks the first month yes we did 100 the first day yeah all right so it was a moment you know and then um we started this little

company and then it was doing so well at Bergdorf. We added lip pencils. Then Neiman Marcus asked us to, you know, to go there. And we just started, I was still a working makeup artist. I was still a commuting mom in New Jersey. It was pretty exhausting. My husband had gone to law school because he was in the real estate market and it crashed. And he was like, I have to get a job. And I just looked at him. I said, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I can't imagine you having, you know, one of those jobs with your, an overcoat and a, you know, a briefcase standing at the bus or the train. I'm like, no way.

So he went to law school, which turned out to be a great thing. But so I kept working because we had to pay the mortgage. Yeah. Yeah. And so it organically just expanded. It organically expanded. It did. You know, it really, it did.

And then, I mean, I've never stopped being a makeup artist. Yeah. Because it's really my passion. It's what I love. I think one of the things that I've noticed with people that I've spoken to is the anguish that people go through having called their business their own name and then eventually at some point having to let go of the love, care and attention that you would put into your business with your name. But even if it was called Green Couch, I would still feel the same angst I felt. Oh, really? Do you think so? Yeah, I do. I do. Because it's still, what's the difference? Okay. You know, the good news it was.

in my name and I am still that person. So, you know, it was very strange at first. But I never felt bad that I sold my name. I never, I never, I know what I was doing. I've, I kind of didn't really mean about you selling your name. I think what it was was that you had so many things that you would never do with your business that was your name. Oh no, that was hard. Yeah. That was hard. I mean, And that was really just the end of my working there because for most of the years I was so in control. Can we go back to when Estée Lauder did kind of come to you? So you literally started properly, Bobby Brown Cosmetics, kind of four and a half years before.

Right. And you got to a point where... We were beating them in the stores. We had the number one line. And it was all the rage. You know, it wasn't all the... There was no such thing as an indie makeup brand. Yeah.

So it was us. And maybe I think Mac was in the market back then. And Lauder had bought half a Mac and I thought, oh, well, we're never going to sell to Estee Lauder. And then Leonard called and Leonard was the most divine human being. Had you ever met him? No, I never got to meet him. I've heard about him. Just incredible.

And so, you know, we sold to Leonard and with a 25-year non-compete. So I want to, I mean, I need to unpick that because that is, when you think about that now, that's absolutely. Absolutely nuts, isn't it? They don't do it anymore. No. And that you had, you had basically sold very well. We didn't need to talk about numbers. Right.

You sold very well. And they put in this extraordinary. So let's just explain to anybody that's non-competers. It means anybody that doesn't know. It means, for me, it meant that I couldn't do anything in beauty. at all until my non-compete was up. So we're not just talking, makeup we're talking about anything. In beauty.

No, in beauty. So, you know, and if there was something I wanted to use my name, I would need their permission. So, you know, that was, you kind of feel like you got handcuffs. But I also understand that by us selling the company to them, my husband and I have been able to send like 25 kids to college. Tell me about that. Yeah, well, you know, our kids, our nieces and nephews, and then we started a foundation for, you know, helped a couple kids go through college. Tell me a bit more about your foundation, because that is a wonderful thing.

Well, it's not a real thing. It's just us, you know, when something comes up and it feels right, we offer to pay for college or whatever. That's an extraordinary gift. I don't want people sending me letters because it's really not a foundation. You are never too old to learn something new. I used to be so terrified of tech, but I started using Adobe Express, which is the quick and easy create-anything app. And it's one of our sponsors too. And I use it to tell my story my way. It's about impact.

Havina? Yes. Did you mean to export this poster of Michael to such a large size? As I was saying, it's never been easier to bring your ideas to life. Yes. Just checking these stickers that say ready to wait, they're also for you two? Yes, those are for me. Merchandising is an important revenue stream.

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did you turn bikets and djokes? She loves Adobe. I'm glad you've joined me for today's lecture. Today I'm going to tell you how to age disgracefully. Tell naughty jokes. Dress outrageously. Flirt outrageously. And take your collagen.

So when I say take your collagen every day, I don't mean putting a little bit of cream on at night. I mean taking true collagen by us. sponsors, Ancient and Brave. They did a trial where 60 women were involved and all of them noticed a difference. They had an improvement in their skin, elasticity and a reduction in their fine lines and wrinkles. Win! So what really, really sets Ancient and Brave apart isn't just their award-winning products. It is their absolute commitment to sustainability. They're a B-Corp and proud members of 1% for the planet. So that means that 1% of their profits, which in fact

they've just up to 2% goes to helping environmental causes. So if you want to give them a try, head to ancient and brave. Earth slash planet. And if you want 20% off your order, use code, begin again. So it changed, you know, your life, other people's lives in an amazing way. But I really enjoyed reading about the kind of conversation that you guys had about, okay, so this non-complete, compete, what does it mean? to us and you were talking about your age.

Right. And how, can you just explain to everybody the kind of thought process that went through, like, should I sign this or not? Well, you know, I thought about it for a second. My husband said the deal's done. All the terms are agreed upon. However, they want you to sign a 25-year non-compete. And I never even heard of a non-compete.

No, who would ask me not to work? And 25 years, I started counting on my fingers. And I'm like, oh, I'm not going on to work when I'm in my 60s. And I was like 59 and a half when I left the company. Yeah, on the verge of 60. And isn't it funny when we're younger, it's like, I think for you and I in our generation, 60 was retirement. Yeah. I was the same.

I'm heading. I'm very close to 60. There's no way I'm stopping. Like, I can't imagine that now. And 60s are better than 50s. Yeah. And because I enjoy it, right? Like I'm really having, is it better than 50s?

For me. I'm in my 50s. Yeah. Poppy. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

You know, as long as you keep yourself healthy and you really have to keep your body limber and, you know, like engaged. I mean, I don't let people put my luggage on the airplane. I do it. And I'm five foot tall. I get it down too. because I want to be able to like do it. How much do you work out then? Not as much as I would like to because I've been so busy.

But I, you know, whenever I can I will book myself with a trainer because I know myself when I go do it by myself. I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, I have to do this. And I have to. Yeah. Chat, chat. Something. So I like to have a place that I have to be at.

Yeah. So I do that, you know, a couple times a week. And then I walk the other day. I was going to say you live an active life. I do. You know, you're always on the go, standing, not sitting all the time. Right. And my husband and I, when we're on holiday, we shower in the morning.

We get our, you know, whatever I put my tights on, a nice sweatshirt, and we go have breakfast. And then we walk all day until lunch, eat lunch, and we walk again. Shared Valise. Yeah, yeah. Every once in a while, I'm like, can we please take an Uber? So Bobby Brown Cosmetics, you meet with Leonard and you have this meeting. You are discussing this non-compete clause and you are thinking to yourself, okay, 25 years, who's going to want to work then? Yeah.

And you sign. So what happens then normally with people? So this is another begin again, right? So this is a new phase of your life. You are with an enormous organization. You have creative control. Right. And you really did.

Oh, I did. I had, as it was told to me, complete autonomy. Yeah. And, you know, I trusted Leonard. Yeah. I didn't even know where it was in the contract, but it was in there. And, you know, for many of the years, it was, you know, we're thinking of opening this country. What are your thoughts?

You know, I mean, great. You know, let's do it this way. How about we do this? like they really supported me and gave me the right teams. We were allowed to hire our own teams and build our team. And, you know, it was the golden years for many years, you know, as I say in the book, until it wasn't. Yeah. Until it wasn't.

Until, you know, some new people started entering the company that were not lauders. Well, what's interesting, I suppose, is that 25 years is such a long time that it is somebody's entire working career. And obviously there's going to be changes. And I suppose at the beginning when you signed that, you're not thinking about that. You're just thinking, oh, this is great. And I really love you. And we're all. Right.

And I was excited about learning more. And I was excited about being more successful. I mean, I look back now at how small the business was when I sold it. I mean, we're at least 10 times bigger already in less of, you know, our new company. But Leonard saw this value in owning Bobby Brown. cosmetics because he believed in me. And it was really, yeah, and it was, and it was evident. He did.

And whenever I had had an issue, I would just go, Leonard. And we would talk about it and figure out what to do. And, you know, it's not that I always got my way, but we were able to make decisions. And yeah. I think one of the things that is so brilliant about you and really nice to have it all confirmed in Still, Bobby, is about, your inclusivity. You have always been a passionate advocate for looking after everybody, everybody's skin, and it's not about changing the color of your skin.

It's about matching the color of your skin. And, you know, whatever color your skin is, I always said, when you come to a counter, you have to find your color. And you have to find your blush and your lipstick and your eye shadow. And by the way, we would have meetings every year, the bottom 5% of the business, they would want us to discontinue. And about 4% of that was makeup for women of color.

I said, I'm not discontinuing it. They said, but it doesn't sell. I said, well, then go get me more customers. Like, you know, that was a non-negotiable. But I, for years, I was able to have the power to say things like that. And at some point I wasn't. And I think that is one of the reasons why you were so massive. is because people could see that you were providing, yeah, a service for everyone.

Right. It was like no one was left out. Right. But what happened then? Like they just said, no, we're not, there was a change in. There was a change of the guard, change in leadership. There was a few changes in leadership and things change. Companies get bigger.

Yeah. Organizations get bigger. And it just, you know, things get diluted. That's what happens. You know, when I started, like, hearing about someone that was joining my brand who I never met. Right. I was like, that was, I used to meet everybody. Especially the, you know, the top hires.

That was like the start of it, you know. And I saw it slipping away, but I just kept thinking in my naive way that I was going to fix it. You know, I'm like, oh, I got this. I know exactly what to do. And I just couldn't get the ground swell around me. to say, yeah, let's, we'll do that. Or they would say it and then nothing would happen. So I don't know, but honestly, I'm so grateful that I went through all the good times

and I'm really grateful I went through the end where it was so tough because where I'm at now, I would have never been there if I was still at the brand trying to fix it. And, you know. At the end, you did keep trying to go back to fix it. like it would happen and then you'd think, oh, I'll go away and I'll have a breathe. And then you'll come back and you'll go, let's just try and, or you might kind of think, no, no, I've got another idea. Right.

Yeah. Bobby Bank Cosmassy. I can change it like this. Constantly. Constantly. And it's so funny. I have this picture of me at my old office and there's a creative board behind me. And it's all the ads I tore out that were fashion ads and some of my photos that I wanted to turn Bobby Brown into.

And I couldn't, you know, we were using these monies. and retouching them so they look like paintings. It was so like unauthentic. And now I look back at those pictures. It looks like Jones Road, the new brand. I'm like, so I got to do what it was in my head to do. And I always wanted to turn the products clean. And I couldn't get anyone to agree with me.

When you say clean, can you just explain what you do? Sure. A clean brand is that there's 2,500 chemicals that are not allowed in your formulations. And that was done by something in the East. something in the EU and that was handed over to us in America. So, you know, I'm not the foremost expert on it, but I was lucky enough to get the list. So I would just hand it to the chemist that you can't put any of these in it.

So a lot of those things weren't traditional makeup. And again, you know, this is like a big pivot. It's like I mean, the word that, again, that's coming into my head is fearless. It's like, I want to, well, you leaving was a big deal. How did that come about? Well, one day, I was in the UK to celebrate the 25 years of Bobby Brown. It was a really great time. And things were really tough, though.

So I was fighting with my PR at the time. I was, all sorts of things were going on. It was pretty intense. You know, there was behind the, seen struggles that I didn't know about. And I think they were ready to let me go. But I came here and then I came home and I was called up into the building and I thought they were going to tell me finally here are the candidates for the president because we'd been like going through search for a year and not one candidate. And then I walked into the office and with a person that was

sitting there that I was supposed to meet with. And there was another woman there who was, you know, a big head of legal or HR, and she just said, here, Bobby. And I said, what? She said, we're canceling your work contract. And I went, you're firing me? She goes, no, we have a new opportunity for you. And she handed it to me. And I said, I don't want it.

She said, you have to take it. I said, I don't have to do anything anymore. You just fired me. And I left. Didn't even think about it. And when I got in the elevator and went down. My elation, all the, all the, I was, look, I had, I had like pockets and pockets of photos from all over the world of things that look terrible that needed to be fixed. Lighting. I said, just go buy light bulbs. We don't know the, it was, things were really a mess at the end. And, you know, and when I got home, you know, when I spoke to my husband, this woman called my husband and said she wouldn't read it. Here it is. And it was basically saying, we want Bobby out of the date.

a day, but we want her to be the face of the brand. And this is what really got me. And she has to be available when someone, you know, calls her to ask questions, but she's not at liberty to tell them if she doesn't like something. Gagged. No. And it was a lot of money. And I said no.

It goes more in depth than the book. There's a few other things that. Yes. So, yeah, it was, you know, it was a time. And it was, I'm not going to lie. You know, my elation from the elevator all of a sudden turned to what the hell just happened. Like, you know, someone like took the rug under me and then someone cut my legs off and my arms off. I was, oh, my emotions were angry, sadness.

Yes. I felt like a failure. Yes. I just, and then I would get little bouts of elation, like excitement. Like, oh, my God, there could be, but it was very little. And it took a while. And you were out of your 25 years. No.

I had four and a half years. Four and a half years left. And, you know, a really tough part, because I'm now rekindled with all of the employees that were my people, because most of them are gone from the company, they weren't at liberty to talk to me. They were not allowed, or they would get fired. So I literally, and, you know, truth is, some of them called me from their son's phones. Wow. Oh, yeah, no, it was not pretty. It was not pretty.

I literally rebuilt myself, like emotion by emotion. Okay, let's talk a little bit about that because, again, if this idea of change, something that is so terrifying, something where your back is so far up against the wall and you're like, no, no, no. But it's a bit like when you are terrified of something and you don't realize you're holding your breath and then finally you go, you go, oh, I can breathe again. that's kind of what you went through. It's like just, oh my God, what, what, what, what, what.

People out there who are thinking, I can't change my job, I'm stuck, I'm paralyzed. How did you do it? Well, first of all, I didn't have a choice. Yes, okay. But I did have a choice. But would you have left? No, I don't think so. Really?

I don't think so. I always thought I could fix things. And if I could just bring in a president or a GM that had the same beliefs and we could work on things together, I thought, no problem. But I didn't even get a candidate. So actually, as day lords did you a favor? Oh, my God. The best thing that ever happened to me. The best thing that ever happened to me.

And by I'm not alone. It's a lesson, isn't it? It is. But I'm not alone, right? I mean, this happens Kelvin Klein, Donna Karen. I mean, so many people lose their brands and reinvent themselves, Joe Malone. Yes. You know, so it happens.

And now I am the first phone call from any of my founder friends that had the same thing happen. You know, it happens. And by the way, it's their company, not mine. You know, it was hard for me to understand that when I was there. Yes. It was. It was very hard. And not that I would have done a contour palette, I wouldn't have.

No, not that I wouldn't want. And they did. That was one of the first things they did is they took something. But you know what? The truth is I'm only talking about this time in my life because I'm on book tour. I don't think about it. I am so moved beyond and past. But can I also just say, Bobby, I am pleased that you're on here talking about it. And I appreciate that it is all in the book. I strongly recommend anyone that is thinking about any kind of change in their life to read because it is so. inspiring because at this stage in your life it's never too late. No, it's never too late. To start again and this is what I love. And you were what, 63? 62 when I left. 62 when you left and 62 when we launched Jones Road.

That's 62 to learn a brand. No, maybe I was 64. See how bad I am in math? Because it was four and a half years. 58 to 62. I was 59, that I know. Oh, so 63. I was 63.

In between us. Yeah. And I did a whole bunch of things, you know, a whole bunch of different projects. In between? Oh, yeah, from like literally after two days. I literally stayed home two days kind of sulking. My friends came over two nights in a row with tequila. Sook.

Two days. And then I started making phone calls to people that I knew that, you know, were not involved in my business because I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone of my business. So I, you know, started going out and seeing friends, one friend that owned a couple department stores, and he said, why don't we do the Just Bobby Shop? I'm so glad, you know, and so I started signing up and doing projects. My husband and I started working on a hotel in our hometown, and I started, I knew I needed a team. Yeah. I knew I needed an assistant. First of all, at 59, I needed someone to help me with my iPhone. So I hired someone out of the Apple shop. Right? Of course. Why wouldn't you? Yeah,

who never heard of me and didn't know who I was. And she came and worked for me. So she worked for me for me for a year or two. And had you been thinking between the end and even though you hadn't started it, if I was going to start another brand, what would it look like? No, because I just thought one and done, that was, you know, and I thought when I left that no one was going to, you know, and I thought when I left that no one was going to ever want to interview me again and ask me things like, where do you like to go on holiday? What do you want for lunch? You know, the things used to annoy me.

I'm like, well, those days are over. Can I? And it was the opposite, by the way. I would like to talk to you about that because I had something happen in the middle of my career where I thought, I did a show and it was, I'd been on telly for 15, maybe 20 years. and I'd been hugely successful. And I presented a massive turkey. And I got ripped to shreds.

And I was the breadwinner. And I was like responsible for three kids. And I just thought, oh, my God, it's over. I am done. And I've always been grateful for my life. But fuck me. After that, fuck me, fuck you. Fuck me, fuck you.

Yeah. I was so grateful if somebody said, hey, I loved you on that. Right. Did you not like a massage my ego, but thank you. You know, I understand when something happens, when you get broken up with, you get fired, your husband leaves you, cheats on you, there's a hole. And, you know, really, you have to fill it up yourself and it's really hard. So I didn't go to a shrink. I did two things.

Hang on, can I just ask you about that? Is there like, you sound like you're proud about that? Is there something about going to shrinks that you don't like? No, no, it just, well, I find that when you go to shrinks, you talk about my mother did this and I grew up like this. It wasn't about that. No. So I had a friend of mine who was a life coach. They came to me and said, can I just do a session?

I'm like, what's a life coach? It was amazing. And he started giving me every week certain things to do. Like what? Well, the first thing, he was like, tell me what's bothering you. And so I would talk about the departure. And then I started saying, there's things in my house that drive me crazy. So I walked around and I took a picture of the couch that, you know, the things were coming out, the mess here.

And then he brought me the pictures the next week with a Sharpie. And I circled them. And then he took it back and he started writing next to it. He'd say, you know, so-and-so trimming. Here's the phone number. call them, they'll come and they'll fix your couch. Like, he started giving me solutions to the things that were bothering me. The things that he had no solutions about, he said, all right, I had this couch that was filled with down, and it was older already because my kids, you know, were in the

house, and it used to drive me crazy. Like, I'll never get a down couch again. I always want to get some kind of, like, nice cushion firmly. And he said, but tell me about this couch. What happened to it? I said, my kids jumping and they're friends. And he said, but how did you feel? having your kids in the house. I said, wonderful. And I started looking at that couch with a little bit more love in my eye. We eventually got rid of it, but at least it didn't bother me as much. So, and he, we just continued to work on things, and he would give me an action plan. Wow. And I'm an action, yeah, and I'm an action plan guy. And some of it was get out early and go walk in the park. Yeah. You know, don't eat as many of this, add some of this. Like, it was a whole thing, and it

really helped. And then I had a chiropractor that gets rid, that does energy release in your body. He got rid of a lot of negative energy. That was, that was probably the combination of the two things helped a lot. And then I had other projects, so I was busy again. So when did Jones wrote, like when was it born in your head? So I did all these different things. And one of the things I did was a wellness brand. I actually, we had it in boots for a short time. I saw a picture of you. Yes. And it was really fun, not successful. Like I'm used to the, you know, the kind of success with makeup. But it was interesting and I learned a lot. And then I just said, you know, I miss being a makeup artist. So I had a space that I have a space that's a photo studio. So I would do shoots for this company and hire the models and do all the things. And then I realized how much I missed makeup. Yeah. And at the same time, I got two calls that were so incredible. One was for, from the Indian makeup show, and they flew me over to India to key a couple big giant, you know, shows there.

And I did not ever use Bobby Brown from the day I left. I didn't want to touch it, didn't want to see it. Yes. And I started building a kit. And I realized I didn't like any of the things that were in this kit. Right. And I also got a call for Masterclass to do the first ever makeup masterclass. It's great, aren't they those?

They're so good. So that was filmed after I started working with the chemist and I had little samples of things that eventually turned into Jones Road. And I got to use those on camera and I'm like, oh my God, this is so good. It was better than anything I've ever used. It worked perfectly with the lighting. So we launched Jones Road October of 20 the day my 25-year non-compete was up. Actually, it was the day after because it was a Sunday. I wanted to launch on a Sunday, but I agreed to launch on a Monday.

It was a week before the presidential elections in the middle of the pandemic. But I did it anyways. It kicked off, right? And interestingly, you didn't want it to go into stores. No, I'm still not, we're not in stores. We're in one department store and that's Liberty. You just wanted to be direct to consume. Yes.

Why was that? Because I've done the department store things. I've done the Sephora's, you know, the Alta's. It's a different business and it's a different ballgame. And it's not the, there's a lot of aggravation and not as much reward. So, and I had a platform. Like I didn't have to do that where a lot of young brands, that's how they get discovered. Yes.

I mean, the amazing thing is, is that you did it your way. Right. And I didn't expect it to be anything other than. people might like this, kind of like how I started with the lipstick. Yes. I never thought, wow, this could be a brand. Yes. But, you know, when I first made Miracle Bomb, that was my first product.

And I mean, look at that. I mean, look at that is right. And I would give little samples to my friends and they would call me and say, oh, my God, what is this? You know, because the middle of the pandemic, everyone looked bad. And you just put a little bit on your face. You're like, oh, my God, I look so much better. I think the interesting thing about launching Jones Road during the pandemic is Zoom. Yes.

You know, 100%. Like we were all on Zoom. Right. And you bring out something and you go, oh, hang on a minute. God, I look at how much better this. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And we were all, I mean, how much of the day do we spend looking in the mirror not that much? No. You know, you maybe go to the bathroom and you have a quick look. Yeah. But we were in front of a screen. looking at ourselves. Without hair color. All day.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mad. Right. Yeah. I learned at least to put my Zoom camera in front of a window. Yeah.

Other people didn't. Give yourself the light. Yeah. You need the light. So, you know, that's how we launched Jones Road. It's now five years. Yes. Can I just say, hang on.

Yeah. Stay there. Yeah. Happy birth. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. And congratulations for a buzz, like. Yeah.

I, um, how's that journey been? How's the five years been like? Well, first of all, when we first launched, I thought, uh-oh, I don't want to be a one-hit wonder. Right. Possible. I didn't know if people. I mean, that is a thing, right? It doesn't. It's not about the money. Mm-mm. No, it wasn't about the money for me. And, you know, I, it was such a different concept. I'm like, are people going to think this is the emperor's new clothes, not as much color as the traditional companies? it's not in, you know, over-marketed anything.

You know, I just, I always hated cosmetics marketing. Yes. And so I just, you know, wanted to just say, this is what this is, this is what it does. End of story. And this is how you use it. I think the other thing that I love, which is very in that vein, is the packaging. Simple. It's so cool and simple.

By the way, it's stock packaging. So we get to keep our costs down. Right. Because so many companies spend so much. much money on packaging, which is wasteful. Yes. I mean, it's interesting that you're talking about, what did you call it when it was the EU had asked to keep out those, a clean?

Clean. A clean, a clean product. But it's a sustainable brand. But I think is that something that you've got really passionate about? Well, I'm not someone that likes to waste anything. I don't like wasting my time. I don't like wasting money. Yeah.

You know, when someone says we're going to get you a car service, you know, I want to how much it is because I know I could take an Uber or a taxi. Yes. It's fine. Yeah. Like I like to compare. Yes. So I'm very practical. And also kind of a gift for everybody else that's working with you.

It's like you're quite different from lots of people we meet that aren't like that. You know, you're very grounded. I'm grounded. I'm direct. and if someone asked me something, I will tell them the truth. Yes, which is glorious. Yeah. I mean, I don't understand how other people don't.

No. I really don't. You've always been like that. I think so, yeah. And that's why I got along so well with Leonard. I could tell him, Leonard, this is what I feel. And he never made me feel that I was anything less than just because I felt something. You know, where a lot of people in business, you're just a woman.

You're just too emotional. Yeah. I talk about being a woman in business. What are the experiences that you've had where you've been a bit like, holy moly, this is bad? I've never felt, holy molly, this is bad. I would sit in situations and I would sit there looking at all these pompous guys in suits, realizing that you guys don't have a effing clue. You just don't.

You don't know what women want. You don't really understand this. You just talk louder. I think the interesting thing about you, though, is that your brutal honesty is very disarming. And I would imagine in a room full of men who are used to kind of maybe trying to overpower somebody, male or female, you know, that when you've got somebody who's like, no, I don't agree with that. And I'm like, yeah, 100%. 100%. You know, when someone was telling me what women want, I'm like, I don't think so, you know.

And then what men love. You know, it's a woman's makeup company. Well, a man wants to find a woman sexy. I said, not all men. My husband thinks I am sexy. I don't have to try to be. Yeah. You know.

I mean, I think the interesting thing is that all the people that I find attractive. And obviously, I mean, I'm in love with Michael, but you can find somebody there's a charisma or something. Right, sure. It's confidence. It is. Confidence, and you know what confidence is? It's just being comfortable with who you are. are. Yeah, totally. It's like not like, you know, it's, and, and, you know, and we're allowed to be

different, right? We're allowed to be different, you know, and still be friends and still work together and, you know, it's like, I don't know what's wrong with people and I don't know what's wrong with this world. We are allowed to, to think and believe different things. We talked a bit about learning about who we are. Like, who are you today? I am someone who's very tired because I said yes I said yes to a lot more things than I probably should have I'm glad I said yes to this

I'm glad I said yet for this but yeah no but I would like a week between getting on another airplane but I get two days sometimes so that's okay but I'm going through this very incredible book tour with an attitude of not I have to do it but I get to do it an attitude of gratitude Oh, it's total. I mean, I am so grateful. I mean, whoever thought I would have this second, you know, beautiful part of my life. And it's just so interesting because now I have two little kids that are my grandchildren and you have no idea how that changes you. Yeah. And it's, you know, when we do our shoots, my granddaughter comes, you know, runs into my arms, BB, BB, and she wants to do the makeup. So she's got a brush and she puts makeup on people and then she helps. I just, I just

style all the shoots. So we've got tables of jewelry, tables of clothes, Lily, pull something out and gives it to the model. Like, she's, for three years old, she is very confident. But this creative, you know, you're saying I style all the shoots, is just slightly blown my mind. I edit the shoots. I style, I edit, I book, I don't physically book, but with my creative director, we choose. And, you know, it's funny, we've been using models over and over again and half of them are not real models. They're beautiful girls that I love, you know, they have a spark. I try to do mostly those girls. Like we have our, you know, our little book of who we like. And every time we bring a new model in, like on occasion we find someone that could be part of our,

you know, our stable. Like, yes, put them in for good. And other times it's like they were fine, but yeah. Just a question about Jones Road. Like if a big company came along, and ask to buy it, what would you do? It depends who it is. And it depends what the situation is. You know, I'm not looking to sell the company to go home. Yes. And go on a holiday.

I'm, if we ever, and I, in the beginning, I said, we're not for sale, we're not for sale. But it's a very big business right now. And it's incredibly, it's self-funded, and it's totally profitable. And I know that's unusual. Amazing. And, you know, I am not looking forward. to having partners that would change anything. I'm not looking forward to it.

You've been burnt. Yeah. I just, well, I know what it's like to not be in charge. And really the starting Jones Road, it really has allowed me to be in charge again, which is kind of ironic because my second son is the CEO. So I'm kind of in charge again. Kind of in charge again.

How is that? It's interesting and great. He's the best person for the job. He is so good at what he does. I have no idea how he's learned everything he's learned. And, you know, he's not afraid to try things. Sometimes he will get my permission. Sometimes he won't.

Sometimes he'll say, well, that didn't work. Like, it's amazing. That's amazing as well to be able to go, we tried this, but it didn't do well. Let's put something else. I mean, that's amazing, isn't it? That's confidence. It is. It really is.

and his wife is our head of brand. Oh, great. Yeah. Oh, my God. Can I just say, you, that would be an important job to give. Oh, my God, it's a huge job. It's everything.

It's like, what's right for me. It's me. Yeah. And she gets it. And she gets it, but she also pushes me, right? And only she could do that. Only she could do that. That's amazing.

They both push me. They both push me. And I, you know, I have to, I have had to learn new ways of communicating. because, you know, it's very easy to piss off people that you live with. Yes. So, you know, you have to kind of pull yourself back. Kind of the same situation when I was in a corporation. I'd have to understand.

I'd have to push myself back and then figure out how and when to say something. Yeah. And it's really how you say it. It's really the words that come out of your mouth. Something that I'm really appreciating about you actually is you're always learning. Oh my God, I'm always learning. Yeah. You never think I know everything.

You're like, I may have made a mistake. I need to rethink how I speak, you know. But I also, like, I have a woman who does all my PR and partnerships in America. And we're just, we're both, you know, she's your age, she's 10 years younger than me. And we're both like, okay, that'd be so amazing. How are we going to do that? Okay, well, that didn't work. We're not taking no for an answer.

We're very similar that way. And it's like, okay, it's not happening now, but we will. Can I tell you something that I've said all my life? That a no is a yes that hasn't happened yet unless you're in the bedroom. Right. But I'm always like, no, you just don't know it's a yes yet. Don't worry, you'll change your mind. I'm always like, no never means anything to me.

Because it also, it might be a no now. Yeah. But I'm not done. No. I'm not done. Exactly. You know. Just because someone said no, you don't have to give everything else.

up just repackage. Right. We figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. One more thing. This podcast was about living a life you love so I could die happy. And I was just wondering, you know, you are still working, you are still loving life.

You are in a very successful marriage. Got three great kids. Like, what would you like your legacy to be that people are left with of you? when you go. I mean, I think I've already achieved it, you know, because people tell me all the time what I've meant to them. And I know people will say, you know, she made me feel good about who I am. Yeah.

And she gave me permission to be myself and to go for it. It's a pretty good legacy. Yeah, I mean, so I've done that already. So now I've got to figure out what the next one is. Now you can just have fun. I am having fun, but I'm not done. There's still things. Tell me.

I don't know. That's the good news. I don't know. There's still things. We're definitely going to be DM friends. Yeah. Oh, yeah, no. I need to know. I mean, this year I got one of the greatest awards. I've had a lot of awards, but, you know, I was Times 100. I had about that. Which was like, all right, well, I'm done. I'm not getting a noble Peace Prize.

So what else is bigger than Times 100? I'm like, all right. But you don't know. I don't know. There might be something. I don't know. I could probably, you know, create peace with blush. Just walk around, give everyone blush. Smile, feel good. Yeah.

Blushes everything. Yeah, blushes everything. Yeah. Bobby Brown.