Begin Again with Davina McCall - Buddhist Monk: Why You’re Angry. We’re Living in Fight or Flight! The Biggest Toxins Are In Your Mind. I Hated Meditation! Gelong Thubten.

Episode Date: December 26, 2024

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina sits down with Gelong Thubten, a Buddhist monk, meditation teacher, and author. They explore the core principles of Buddhist philosophy, how to apply this in our modern lives, and how to find inner peace, resilience, and balance amidst life’s challenges. Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro (01:20) Discovering Your Life's Purpose (02:34) Meditation Tips for Beginners (05:22) The Benefits of Meditation Explained (08:51) My Life Before Joining the Monastery (10:48) From Burnout to Finding Peace in a Monastery (11:52) Why I Chose the Monastic Life at a Young Age (12:46) How to Embrace Self-Acceptance (17:49) The Power of a Retreat for Inner Peace (22:43) Overcoming Technology and Distractions (25:12) Creating Mindful Micro-Moments Daily (27:11) Managing the Stress of Modern Life (32:10) Understanding the Fear of Abandonment (34:06) Transforming Anger Into Love (35:35) Are We Living in a Crisis of Comfort? (37:36) Coping With Grief Effectively (40:33) Healing From Trauma (45:31) What Holds People Back From Happiness? (47:13) Simple Daily Check-Ins and Micro-Meditations (51:01) Exploring Celibacy and Its Purpose (53:51) Guided Meditation With Davina (59:27) Davina's Key Takeaways Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I was starting to look at all the reasons why, from burnout to a monastery. I just wanted to find a way to accept myself. But the reality is... I'm going to start crying. I've got to stop crying in this podcast. It's absolutely ridiculous. I feel like stress is a massive one. I just can't stop thinking about my phone. We need fight or flight in certain situations.

We're not being chased by tigers. We've been chased by WhatsApp notifications. And then I think the mistake people make is they assume that... Yes. I knew I wanted to meditate. I really needed to. I was incredibly stressed. The first few times,

I was quite shocked at how difficult I found it. One of the barriers that I felt when I started was thinking. I'm thinking. Oh, I've ruined it. People make it harder for themselves. I thought you're supposed to kind of clear your mind. That's not how it works. And the more you try and do that.

Yes. What's the promise with meditation? Everybody can transform. This is like really, really important. I think if people don't understand this, they just struggle all the time. And the whole point is you... Oh my God. Actually, sorry. That's just blown my mind. Taptan. Hi. Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you. And I mean, there's a lot to get up with you. I'm very excited. But I wanted to start by asking you quite a broad question. What do you feel is your purpose with regards to getting a message out there to the general public? Well, I do like to communicate about meditation, but in a very general broad way, so that people of all religions or no religion can appreciate what it can do for them. And I suppose my focus is to help people understand meditation is maybe easier than they assumed. People make it harder for themselves. I give a lot of meditation classes, so I hear a lot of questions from people,

and I think people struggle for reasons that they don't need to be struggling for. So I like to kind of simplify it and demystify it and help people understand how it can really transform their lives and also transform our society. It's interesting because in your book, the last one, the second one, handbook for hard times, I felt like one one of the common themes, threads is that we seem to give ourselves a hard time and then think that hard time is the barrier to everything. And particularly in meditation, if we're going to start by maybe touching on that,

one of the barriers that I felt when I started was thinking. I'm thinking, oh, I've ruined it, you know, give myself a hard time. Can you talk me through? You know, because I think lots and lots of people think thoughts are bad things during meditation. That's the problem, isn't it? You're meditating and you think, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to meditate. I'm just going to sit here and I'm not going to have any thoughts. And then thought comes, thought comes. And the thoughts are really random. You know, one minute you're thinking, did I feed the cats, the next minute, what shall I do tomorrow? I want to go on holiday. What did I see on TV last week? You know, the thoughts just come up. And then that's when people start to feel, I can't do this. I can't, I can't. I can't. I can't. get rid of the thoughts, or people kind of disqualify themselves by saying, well, I've got a very busy mind. There's no way I can meditate. But that's what people say to themselves. That's the story people tell themselves about their journey with meditation is I can't do it.

And I definitely found with myself that actually when I started meditating, I really hated it, really hated it. How old, did you meditate at all before you went to the municipal? No, I just, in the deep end, I became a monk and learnt meditation all at the same time. And I knew I wanted to meditate. I really needed to. I was incredibly stressed. But the first few times, I was quite shocked at how difficult I found it and I didn't like it.

And I thought, well, it's too late to back out now. You know, you're signed up for this thing. And I think the reason why I hated it so much was because of this very problem, that I thought you're supposed to kind of clear your mind and empty yourself of thoughts. And the more you try and do that, the louder, the louder it shouts. Yes. So the more you push the thoughts away, they're going to just bounce back with equal force. And then you start feeling, I don't know, it becomes like a battleground. And a failure. And you feel like a failure. And the meditation actually makes you more tense. But the whole thing is based on this premise that I'm supposed to sit down and clear my mind.

and that's absolutely not true. That's like putting yourself into a kind of comatose state or unconscious state. That's not, you know, imagine if you could. Imagine if you could sit down and for 10 minutes just be blank. Well, the question is so what? Is that what we're aiming for? Just to kind of go blank for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, then you're back to normal life. It hasn't changed you.

That's not the way, that's not how it works. What's the promise with meditation? Well, I think we want to get more in charge of ourselves. We want to get more in charge of our own minds. We want to have more freedom inside. It's almost as if we have a very complex relationship with our minds that we're trying to feel a certain way or be a certain way, but the mind controls us too much.

So we definitely have thoughts and emotions we'd rather not be having throughout the day. And those are the causes of most of our problems. Our relationship with our mind is really the cause of most of our suffering. So you learn meditation because you want to change that relationship. And then I think the mistake people make is they assume that means you have to stop the thoughts and just throw them all out. But actually that's not how it works at all. In fact, the thoughts enhance your meditation.

How? Because when you're meditating, you might be using a technique such as your breathing. I say technique, but I mean, we're breathing all the time. It's not even a technique, is it? And the whole point is you notice that your mind has wondered, and then you very gently bring yourself back to the breath. And it's that returning that really counts. Because every time you come back to the breath, you are actually,

building a skill of being able to make a choice in terms of what your mind is doing. You know, the mind got, it's almost like you lost control of the wheel of the car and now you're back behind the wheel. Okay, yeah. And you drive the car back to the breath. So the coming back is what really makes you stronger, which means you have to have somewhere to come back from. Right, and if you don't go anywhere.

So the thoughts that took you away are the very thing that bring you back. So actually, the whole experience of meditation is all about that process of sometimes you're with the breath, sometimes you're noticing that you got lost, and sometimes you're returning to the breath. And all those three aspects, being with the breath, noticing you got lost or returning to the breath, they are all meditation. So noticing that your thinking is meditation, which means the thinking has enabled the meditation. This is like really, really important because I think if people don't understand this, they just struggle all the time. And there is that moment, isn't it, when you're meditating, and then you get completely caught up in a kind of mental fantasy and mind wandering.

And then there's that moment where you realize, oh, where was I? That doesn't have to be a moment of failure. Yeah. It doesn't have to be. It's actually a moment of success because you really. realize where you were and you come back. If you meditate like that, the whole thing becomes more gentle, becomes more loving, more kind, more compassionate.

Otherwise, it's a nightmare. I mean, really a nightmare. And I know this because I've been there in that nightmare of trying to squash the thoughts down and feeling dreadful about myself. And in a way, using meditation just to try and suppress everything, I've tried that. Didn't work. I mean, I've kind of gone a bit wonky because I've talked to you about something

and I'm desperate to get the backstory because I want to learn about young you. Okay. And I know that something happened and you literally got burnt out. You just talked to me about what was happening to you at that time in your life. And how did you get burnt out? I had a very huge burnout at 21. So young. Very young.

I was living in London and then New York. I was training to be an actor. My mother's an actor, and I kind of wanted to follow in her footsteps, and that was my career path, and I started doing bits of acting, and I also went to drama school. But I was living an incredibly unhealthy lifestyle. I was a real party animal, but not a happy, it wasn't a happy experience. It was a real desperate kind of running away from my soul.

because I would have these periods of depression and anxiety that I didn't know what to do with except just get very busy. So very focused on career, very focused on partying and addictions and all of that stuff just brought me to my knees. But in a very explosive way, you know, with some people burn out sort of as an incremental thing. With me, it was just very sudden, literally one morning waking up in Brooklyn and New York and just having all the symptoms of a heart attack, but not a heart attack, but fell like one. Went to the doctor.

The doctor said you've burnt yourself out. You've had a breakdown. You've got to stop doing everything you're doing and just change your lifestyle. I mean, this was the seed for me to becoming a monk. I know it's an unusual choice. you know, from burnout to a monastery. But for me, I was desperate for something quite radical to change my life.

How did that change happen from burnout to monastery? How did you get there? So when I had this burnout, I think Buddhism became a very strong option for me. And an old school friend of mine told me about a monastery in Scotland called Samuel Ling, which is a Tibetan Buddhist monastery in the borders of Scotland. and they said, oh, they've just opened up this new thing where you can be a monk for a year. I love that.

It sounds like a deal. Be a monk for a year. Do you know what I mean? So she said I'm going there to be a nun. And I said, I want to come with you. Can I be a monk? She said, sure, let's go. So literally a friend dragged me there.

She'd been there before and she knew about it. It was my oldest friend from childhood. And we went there and four days later, I became a monk. But only for a year, that was the plan. It didn't feel like a huge step because it was only going to be a year. It was like a retreat.

It felt almost like rehab. You would walk 22 at this point. It's an enormous thing for a 21-year-old to have spent a year. Celibate. No drink, no drugs, no partying in thought. Actually, all of that was a relief. Was it?

A huge relief. because I'd done too much of it all. And so it felt like, oh, I can breathe. Now, at that point, I never was thinking this would be my whole life, but it was a breather to have some kind of reset. And I was starting to look at all the reasons why I had got involved in addictions and the lifestyle I'd been in was so much about, there was so much self-discussed about it and about me.

and I just wanted to find a way to accept myself. Self-acceptance, you talk about that as well in hard times. How long a journey has it been for you to find self-acceptance? And how have you done that? Okay, so what happened to me was I decided to try another year in the monastery. So in my second year, I went into solitary retreat. Okay, this is where you lose me. Okay, so I don't know if I, I don't know how you did that.

Well, I wanted to go deeper. I wanted to kind of lock myself away in a room and meditate very, you know, sort of full-time. And it was during that time that I started to have these very revolutionary thoughts about my life. And what am I doing? After this retreat, am I going to go back to my old lifestyle or do I want to go even deeper? And that's when the idea. of staying for life started to emerge? I'm so interested about when you're meditating or when you're alone

and there's no one to talk to, there's no one to bounce off, and there's no phone to interrupt you. Is it that sometimes then when you meditate, you're able to meditate on a concept about yourself or would you keep the meditation for switching off? and then when you stop meditating, then your mind is so clear, you see things so much clear. Actually, it's very messy. It's a jungle.

You're walking through a dark jungle of your own mind. Because you're doing these meditation methods all day where you're trying to kind of harness your attention and keep it on the different meditation practices you're learning. But the reality is it's you stuck in a corner with your own thoughts and your own feelings. And you really have to find a way to make friends with yourself. And actually during those nine months, I experienced levels of self-hatred I'd never thought were possible. Really bad.

Because all the props have gone, all the things that you're using to not have to be with yourself, they've gone. It's just you in a room. And then you start to experience your own trauma and your own sadness and your own misery and all of that stuff that was really bubbling away becomes on the surface.

And then for me, on top of that was a whole heap of shame, a whole heap of self-criticism. I shouldn't be like this. Why am I like this? Why am I so depressed? Why am I so anxious? Why am I so useless? I'm a failure.

I can't meditate. I'm a terrible monk. I'm a terrible human being. I mean, the whole lot, it's just everything. But that's a process. I mean, looking back, it's all fantastic because it's a process of discovering more about yourself and how to accept yourself.

But at the time, it's very dark, very, very dark. And I think in that retreat, I just saw how much work I need to do on my mind. And it wasn't actually until a later retreat, 12 years later, which was much longer, a four-year-long retreat. It wasn't until then that I started to learn about self-acceptance. So how much later was that four-year retreat? 12 years into being a monk. Wow. So I'd been a monk 12 years.

I'd already made the decision by then. I'd already become a lifelong monk. and I was also even teaching a bit of meditation and I did have a feeling that I was really needing to go deeper and I had a feeling that I was in a way just sort of suppressing myself, you know? There was something else to get at. Well, I think I went through a phase of been a bit of a sort of like fake, you know what I mean?

I do, yeah. where you feel that you've earned the spiritual stripes, as it were, but there's something in there somewhere where you know there's an itch to scratch. Also, you sort of think, when I'm a monk, so I better look like one. Yes. I better act like one. I better... I mean, that's super self-aware, right?

I better be sort of serene. You know, I better do the serenity thing. Wow. And I think I went around trying to look a bit calm and people. peaceful where really there's a volcano inside. I think it was a hell of a lot of suppression going on. So that's why I went into retreat because I thought I need to get real. And tell us about that retreat.

It was horrible, but very transformative. Yeah. I really hope you're enjoying this episode. And if you can, give us a follow. I went into this long retreat, four years long, on the Isle of Aran. So, you know, a remote-ish island. and the retreat is, you're in an enclosed space. It's an old farmhouse that's been converted into a retreat.

So there's a wall around it, and you've got a bit of a courtyard to walk in. But basically you're... You don't get out. No. And you only have one letter a month from your family. There's no internet, no phones, no news, nothing. No interaction with the outside world. And you have a very solid schedule all day of meditation.

It starts very early in the morning till late at night, long, long sessions and meditation. I mean, we're talking 16 hours a day, right? I think the schedule is like, yeah, 16 hours, 14 to 16 hours a day, with gaps, little breaks throughout the day. And that's all you're doing. And again, you're back to that experience of you in a room with your thoughts. And, I mean, it was quite shocking because after 10 days I had a, I already crashed, really crashed quite badly. and to be honest the first half of the first two years of that retreat was hell

in that I so I'd gone into the retreat with this slightly suppressed thing going on in me of just pushing all the pain down and trying to look as holy and spiritual as possible and then there's no audience there is there they're all gone so you can't who are you going to fool who are you going to try and look spiritual for it's just you that's when the work starts and I really I got incredibly depressed and it was a very

a very toxic mix of depression and anxiety where it was oscillating from one to the other so I felt like I was just falling down a very dark hole all the time kind of screaming it was really horrendous because what I realized was that I'd been

constantly pushing something away and constantly hating it and hating myself and all of that stuff. And when I learned how to sit with it and sit in the pain, it's a very physical thing. How do you do that? Well, it feels physical. So there's an emotional state. There's a very strong misery and upset and like a kind of like a storm in your mind. but I felt it in my body

because our emotions resonate in our bodies, don't they? So you can feel sadness like a sinking feeling. You can feel fear in your belly. You can feel stuff in your body. So for me, it felt like a constant pain in my chest, like a heaviness combined with almost like a knife twisting, twisting constantly in my chest. And so that became my meditation.

I'd never thought that I'd always thought that's all nasty stuff I've got to get rid of it so I can do the good stuff but actually using that as my meditation became very very helpful and you sat with the pain sitting with it sitting with it because when you when you turn something into your meditation focus your whole relationship with it starts to shift because you're allowing yourself to stay with it and when your mind why wonders, you bring it back to it. So instead of trying to get it away, you come back to it. Yeah. Oh, wow.

And so the second half of the retreat was very different because I started working with that. And that's the first time in my life. And I'm quite surprised to say this. You know, after 12, I'd already been doing meditation for 12 years. It's the first time I started to enjoy meditation. Because before it had always been an experience of. trying to get rid of something.

And now it was all about bring it on. Bring it on and be with it. Be okay with it. It's funny. I was when you were talking earlier and you were talking about meditating and things coming into your mind, the worst thing for me,

I don't know if you know Johann Harri. Yeah. He wrote a great book called Stone and Focus. And the worst thing for me is that I just can't stop thinking about my phone. Oh, I just want to look up. I wonder what? What if? What am I missing?

Yeah. It's because something really interesting be happening. Yeah. It's incredibly addictive. Oh, I must just check in. It's so addictive. I'm in the middle of meditating. What am I doing thinking about my phone?

Put it in a different room, maybe. So what's your relationship to your phone? How do you do that? Okay. So it was a big shock to me to come out of that four-year retreat and find that everybody had phones. So what years did you go in? Like what happened? Did you not hear any news?

Nothing. Oh my God. Actually, sorry. That's just blown my mind. Four years in our life now is so long. But also four particular years. It was 2005 to 2009. Oh, wow.

Twitter. The whole lot. Facebook, all social media and smartphones. So before my retreat, a few people had Blackberries and that was in. Wow. I come out of retreat. I literally feel like I've entered a zombie film because everybody's walking around. No one's looking at you.

No, they're walking around with these gigantic things in their hands and just totally in the phone all the time. I'm in London. I came out of retreat. I arrived in London. You went straight to London. Yes. What were you thinking?

Maybe that was a mistake. Maybe I should have like gradually. But no, I was in London and you're going up the escalator in the tube and the pictures on the side are all digital moving images. Before my retreat, they were static. That has subtle difference. But boy, did it make me feel. sick. Yes. I felt dizzy. And so I'm coming out of this retreat and I'm experiencing the world

very, very differently because everybody's got phones. You know, maybe when you're in it, you don't see the speed speeding up, but when you go out and come back in, you see it. Yeah. And I, you know, I'm thinking, what is this doing to our mental health as a species? What's going on with us is that our relationship with information has completely changed. because you used to have choice. You could choose to go to the news. Yes. Now the news comes to you.

It's invasive, isn't it? It's invasive and also it's monetized. And so there's a whole different vibe. We're all frightened. Well, there's a different energy to how the information is portrayed. Because of the monetization of digital news, You've got a whole system where headlines have to be written in a certain way to grab your attention so that you open the article and then you've got the ads.

So how do you grab somebody's attention? You frighten them. So I do have a phone. And I've often questioned, I've often thought, could you actually do the stuff I do without the phone? Because I write books, I give talks, I travel, I'm catching trains. I mean, nowadays, even to catch a train, nobody has tickets anymore. It's all on the phone. And I do have a phone and I do see how addictive it can be.

And so my policy with myself is there's no point me being all holy about it and saying, I'm not going to use a phone. I'm going to use the phone, but I'm also going to give myself medicine in the mind. So as many times as I'm checking my phone, I also want to meditate. So I practice micromomoments. Oh, tell me about those. They sound amazing. micro moments of meditation many, many times a day.

You know, like we're constantly snacking on the phone. Well, also you can snack on meditation. It's a way of rebalancing things. So I'll be standing somewhere and I'll feel the ground under my feet just for a few seconds. Or I'll be aware of my shoulders, aware of my breathing. Tiny, tiny moments repeated often. I feel that that is a very powerful way, well, to integrate meditation into your daily life, but also particularly with the phone is to in a way detox the mind and in a way a counterbalance to the, yeah.

And so social media as well. I mean, I like to post things that are inspiring. So why not use social media to reach more people? Reach people with a positive message. It doesn't have to be, here's the food I've just eaten. Everyone please be jealous of my meal. It doesn't have to be that, does it? it can be something different.

It's all about motivation, isn't it? But I'm going to be completely honest with you. I can see that I get over-addicted to my phone. I can see that. But I've also got methods I use that help to balance that. So let's talk a bit about fight or flight because I feel like in the modern world, and especially when you're thinking about people, perhaps,

in their second chapter, maybe 40 plus, we're looking at the next part of our life. lives. And we're all interested in trying to be a bit healthier because we're looking at trying to maximize our enjoyment of the second part of our lives and we're not getting any younger. But stress, it seems, I do feel like we are slightly making ourselves ill. And it's not even necessarily with, you know, we're all exercising more, we're all trying to eat better, but there are outside things that are making us sick. And I feel like stress. is a massive one because I, maybe because of my childhood or something, but I constantly feel like

I am ready for a disaster at all times. Now, I'm really, I started meditating for that reason. What's your take on the stresses that are put on us today? It's huge. And I do think that we put a lot of effort into the body, but not enough into the mind. I mean, you can drink the green juices, you can not drink out of plastic bottles. You can try and avoid as many toxins as possible, but the biggest toxin is our toxic thoughts. And if we are not learning how to detox the mind, no amount of green juice is going to work.

You know what I'm saying? Yes. And we are up against it because of the inputs we receive through advertising, social media, The whole messaging around you're not enough. You're not good enough. You know, when you're told you need this product in order to be happy, which is a kind of, I mean, that's a very sort of like simplified way of describing advertising,

but that's basically what it's saying. When you're told that again and again, aren't you also being told there's something wrong with you? Yes. There's something missing. So aren't we constantly receiving this kind of? a battering from life saying you're not good enough. You don't have enough. Even though we've got more than enough, we feel we don't have enough or we're not enough. And so I do feel that we are constantly under siege in that way. And there's a lot of fear, a lot of, is that fight or flight?

You know, fight or flight is a natural response. It's useful, you know, if it's used properly. If you're being chased by tigers, bring on the fight or flight. I'm not going to sit there all zen and meditate away. I'm going to run from the tiger. That's fight or flight in full force. But we're not being chased by tigers. We've been chased by WhatsApp notifications, aren't we? And I did feel, I think, in my life.

And I know a lot of my contemporaries have felt the same that we were almost proud of our stress levels. Like, you know, we are like, I can do a 14-hour day. I'm cooking and breastfeeding at the same time whilst coming up with a great TV idea. And I'm calling everybody. And I operated like that for many years and thought that I was bossing it because I was in Fidel Flight 24-7. That's not good for my health. No, it produces.

It produces a lot of cortisol in the body. And cortisol is a natural part of the body when we're in danger. but to be constantly stoking up those stress levels means we are absolutely draining ourselves. Cortisol is very draining. It's very, it's debilitating. And meditation must be an antidote to that. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And that's what a lot of the science shows, is that, you know, you can do brain scans on people who meditate and you can see that their brains are healthier. There's less of an activation of the fight or flight mechanism. and the part of the brain which deals with that, the amygdala, is less overreactive. Because that's the problem, is that we need fight or flight in certain situations, but we don't need it constantly throughout the day.

And it's true what you say. We really go through these phases in our lives where, and it's sort of culturally encouraged, where, you know, somebody says, how are you? And the right answer is busy. I'm busy. I'd literally admire somebody if they said that. You know, maybe in the past I'd go, oh, well done, you. Yes, I'm busy, therefore, or I'm completely stressed.

I'm literally on the verge of burnout. That means, oh, you're doing really well. Great. It's mad, isn't it? Great for you. If you say I'm not doing very much, there's something wrong with you. Yeah. Is that not a bit, is it not quite weird?

I mean, I now, we're supposed to be as busy as possible. I admire people who say I'm taking a few days out for me, or I really admire that. Because sometimes I think it's hard to identify feelings. or, you know, I had a, I mean, I said I had it, I'm sure it's still there, but I've definitely worked on it a lot, a fear of abandonment. And if you were to ask me where my fear of abandonment would be, it's here. You know, I know where it is, I know what it feels like, I spent a long time using drugs to try and squish it. I mean, I probably had a similar youth to you, the same sort of running away from things, don't want to look at things. I went to Narcotics Anonymous and spent years talking. And it's helped a lot. But the

older I've got, it's helped a lot. I'm more willing to look at things or go to dark places that I didn't really want to go to before. And can you, when you do that, do you feel a sense of acceptance? Yes, I think. With the feeling. Yes. Because there's a part of you that you've been pushing down. Yes. And now you are willing to go there. Yes. Is that scary? It was. It's less, it feels less scary now. Is it less scary because you are sending some love into that place?

Well, I'm trying to in my life. Yeah. Send love everywhere. Yeah. But it has to start with you. But I mean, I'm going to start crying. I've got to stop crying in this podcast. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I read your book. I couldn't stop crying. Like, it's a lovely thing though. I'm sorry about that. Do you cry? Yes, I do. Okay, good. Yes.

Oh, wow, yes. I mean, it's, I just feel something. And I cry, like, and it's usually kind of connected to love in some way. But the older I get, the more love, I feel. And I'd love to talk to you. You do a brilliant bit on anger. And I think throwing love at anger is a really, helpful thing to do, but how would someone do that?

Well, again, it's all about finding that place in you where there's the rage and the anger. You know, it's so, it's so tempting to just go with the blame, isn't it? It's so tempting to say, well, I'm angry because. And there's always a reason. Somebody did something. Somebody said something. Yes, yes, that happened. Yes, I'm not denying that.

but right now there's a feeling. And the more I go into the wise and the wherefores... It's worse. It gets worse and also it's not really the truth because the truth right now is there's just a feeling in me. Everything else is in the past. The real truth is right now there's a feeling in me, it's anger, and instead of looking at the thing that made me angry,

it's about looking at the anger itself. and sending kindness into the anger, forgiving the anger. It's not about forgiving the other person, it's about forgiving the anger. That's the difference. And through that, you can forgive the other person, but you've got to start with your feeling. So it's the same technique. You talked a bit about resilience in the book,

about how this kind of constant seeking of happiness makes us less resilient. stop trying to be safe or full of fear and making your world all small and not risking anything because we've got to be happy and safe. And then actually when something does happen and it always does in life, we're going to lose people we love. We're going to, this is life. Yeah, I think a lot of this is modern life.

It's very much about comfort. And I often say we live in a crisis. of comfort. That's such a great. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, God. I'm totally agree with that, yeah.

And we're constantly told you have to be comfortable. Yeah. And we live in a culture where you can get certain amount of comfort. I mean, we really can control the temperature in our house or in our car. We can turn the dials and try and make everything just right. But hasn't that made us more frightened of discomfort? Yes. And we're so upset.

with you must be happy, that unhappiness feels like a terrible failure. Yes. But I feel that all the unhappiness I've experienced in my life has made me stronger and I'm grateful for it. But at the time, I just wanted to get rid of it. And I do think we're socially conditioned to be as happy as possible. What is that, though? What is that happiness?

And what does it look like? And it's so much about objects and things and people and places And of course, that's how the machine turns, isn't it? We have to be told all the time, you need this to be happy, you need that to be happy. And, of course, the problem is, is that when we are, when we're seeking happiness from a thing or a person or a situation, we're already building the habit of needing more. Yes. Because looking for happiness means you're always looking for happiness. I wanted to talk to you as well about grief

because I feel like grief at this time of our lives is something that we have to deal with a lot but it can be especially for somebody I've had a life of loss throughout my life but a bit like you I'm so grateful that I've had it bit by bit but sometimes people get to this stage of their life and they lose a lot of people. in like a five-year period.

Like a domino effect. Yeah. Yeah. What can people do with that? I mean, possibly a similar thing to what you're saying earlier, but what, have you got any advice? Well, I mean, I think we need to recognize how much we're conditioned to deny the facts of life and death. You know, we're so conditioned to have this weird sort of. a fantasy of immortality.

Yes. I mean, intellectually, we know everybody dies, but we don't know that emotionally. We don't, we don't, so we're so shocked when it happens. And we use, even in our language, we use expressions like, if I die, as if there are options. Yes, not when. I had never thought about that.

The fact we can say, if I die, really does suggest that there's a part of us, that thinks, well, you know, there's a side door. I could avoid that. Yeah, yeah. The other thing is people are very, they really struggle with the word. They've died. Yeah.

They're dead. They say they passed away. They've left us. I mean. We are frightened of death. We are. Understandably, of course. But I think it's more, it's worse than it needs to be out of fear of death because of the denial.

So one of the major things in Buddhist practice is to actually sit with death as a meditation, to actually meditate on impermanence, to think about, to sit and think about how everything is impermanent, this body is impermanent, everybody's, we're all going to die. Now, the phrase we're all going to die, does that mean we have to be depressed about it, or could we actually use that knowledge to live better lives, knowing that time is fleeting? and knowing that death comes at any time, could that make us more, really value the time we have

and value the relationships we have, not waste so much time? And then when death comes, when we're dying, or our loved ones are dying, I'm not saying it's just going to be easy, but maybe easier to accept because we were ready for it.

We're less, maybe less sort of suppressed about it. I do sometimes, think about people in life, there are some people who, a bit like you've seen kind of problems as a learning tool and feelings are only bad if you don't make something positive from them or send them love. But you think about that later, like let's be on at the time. Exactly. You're not, oh, bring it on, it's great.

Later on, you look back on it, don't you? And I was thinking about what about the people out there who are. are really struggling to get out of victim mode, that everything else has made me like this and I can't get better because of that. What can they do? But this is why I want to get meditation into every aspect of our culture.

This is why we've got to get meditation into schools. It's happening. You know, we've got to get meditation into the prison service, into hospitals, into businesses, everywhere. And that is happening. There is a growth, isn't there, of that? And because I want that to be available to everybody so that they have a tool through which they can manage their feelings better and they have this way of relating to themselves differently. We have the chance to

see ourselves in a different light. And you describe that victim mode, which I understand that. We've all been there, but it doesn't serve us. It doesn't serve anybody. So imagine if we could give somebody a technique where they can learn how to forgive themselves and forgive others and send compassion into their own hearts and also out compassion for yourself, compassion for others. People who feel victims say, I mean, victims of domestic violence, victims of abuse, and, you know, I totally get what you're saying, but I would say that maybe somebody would be sitting there just going, I don't think I can do that. But is there a place, is there a time where you could do enough meditation where you might be able to find forgiveness or be able

to send love to somebody who has hurt you so badly? And let's be very clear that none of this is about condoning what other people have done. And of course there are many situations where you need to get away from a toxic, dangerous situation. None of this is about being a doormat or just saying just walk all over me, I'm going to accept it. Of course not. We understand that, but you extract yourself from a dangerous situation, but then you are left with the feelings. Yes, which could ruin your life.

And those feelings are you and your mind, and you don't need to feel imprisoned by them. You can start to work with those feelings. And you don't need to feel, if I forgive, am I somehow allowing and saying it was okay? No, you're working with your own mind. You're freeing yourself. It's like you're dropping that burden inside yourself little by little so that you're allowing your own heart to breathe. You're doing this for you. And sure, it might make you think of the other person differently. You might think, okay, they were obviously coming from a place

of immense confusion and negativity and darkness. And I'm not condoning what they did, but maybe I don't need to feel so wounded as if they were out to get me. It's more that they were just completely wrapped up in their own pain. Maybe that can help to somehow change the dynamic. It doesn't mean you ever need to see them again.

I'll talk to them. And I've tried to move past something. I sometimes ask myself, you know, I'm so angry they did. that and then I'll say to myself, why do you think they did that? And then if I know them, usually if someone's been mean to me and it's really hurt, it's because I know them really well. And I think, I know it's this thing happened to them in their childhood and they're acting out at that.

There's always something. Yeah. And that helps soften. Even the worst seeming, you could say, monster, what is it that has turned that person into a monster? So what is it that's happened to them that's brought them to that place? Because at some point they were a baby lying in a cot just there, and then their life evolved in certain ways, and they become monstrous in their behavior, but are they a monster essentially deep down inside? Nobody is. Nobody is.

Life makes us a certain way, but we can also change. Everybody can transform. I really think that's important because otherwise we, to know that, otherwise we just write people off as monsters forever. What would you say is the thing that holds people back when you've met people and they've been in a dark place? Is there a common theme to a blockage that you felt or seen in people? Well, there's a feeling of despair, isn't there?

I have no hope. There's no way I can get out of this. I know that when I was in that retreat and I was incredibly depressed, I just couldn't see any way out of it. And I didn't trust myself that I had the strength to bring myself out of it. I had no sense of my own strength or power or anything. I just thought I'm lost in this. And so I think people get very blocked when,

they don't know how to access the part of themselves that can do the work. Yeah. And I do think that if we sit with our anger and if we sit with our fear and if we sit with our pain, you've got to ask a question which is who is the one sitting with the anger? If you're angry and you're watching the anger, the watcher is not angry, that there is a part of ourselves that's not the anger. and not the pain. And meditation puts you in touch with that bigger part of yourself.

And that's very strong. That's a strength. And the more you can get in touch with that, the more you can feel the chance for freedom. Do you do like, is your practice a daily check-in with what's happened every day or these mini-check-ins that you do? Oh, I practice both sitting down for a couple of hours a day, day. I mean, people often don't have time to do that long, so I even think 10 minutes or

20 minutes is fine. I'll do 15, 20 minutes, is it? Yes, absolutely. But it's all about having that time to sit on a cushion on the floor or on a chair. And then I'll also do those little moments throughout the day. So I'll do both things every day. And I never miss a day of meditation. Do the little moments throughout the day feel easier, you know, because I think I don't know how I do the little moments. I really have to get into it. You make a habit. Okay. So you could even start with something quite tangible like washing your hands mindfully. Okay. Like every time you're at the sink washing your hands, the soap. Okay. Yes. Okay. Brushing your teeth. So doing something. Yeah, doing something. Where you think about what you're doing as opposed to. Yeah. And it's not even

you think about it, you just feel the moment. You feel the sensation of the toothbrush against your tooth. You feel the water on the hands. You feel the ground under your feet. And you just make a habit of doing this. But for me, this becomes really interesting when you deliberately do it when you're stressed. Deliberately. Okay. I mean, it's hard to do that from day one, but if you build the habit of micro tiny moments throughout the day and then you've, you've, you've, you've got that available for you when you're stressed. So one way I learned this for myself is through whenever I'm waiting for something, I'll practice these mindful moments because waiting is a kind of you're meeting your edge slightly. You know what I mean? You're standing in a queue and you want

to get to the front or you're stuck in traffic or you're waiting in a train that's stopped in the tunnel. These waiting moments are really powerful moments for meditation because there you have a Perfect example of how we have automatic reactions, fight or flight. So if you feel the ground under your feet, you feel the seat under your body in that moment, you're training yourself to relax against the odds. You're giving yourself an amazing skill

because you're learning to relax no matter what. So if you start working it into the waiting situations of your life, it can start to become part of you so that when you're in bigger stressful moments. Right, you can cool on it. Yeah, it becomes almost sort of a natural place where you can go. And I find this really helps me, sometimes after the fact. So sometimes I find somebody might say something to me that is quite harsh and I'm shocked.

But then I can go away with that hurt and work on it because I've got the habit of being able to go there in moments of stress. It's very helpful because you. you're actually, I mean, dare I say it, you're sort of almost looking forward to difficult situations because they're like weights on your weightlifting machine, isn't it? Yes. Oh my God, this is so good. I'm just enjoying this so much

because I'm loving the micromeditations. I'm going to take that away with me. But this idea of like little kind of points during the day where you think, oh, there's another five kilos on the weighted bar, like your brain training. Do you mind me? And please say, no, I don't want to talk about it. But I am slightly fascinated by the celibacy.

I feel like if you were to do my five lung languages, it was like a cool thing that happened, you know, there was a five love languages book. And like you would be asked these slightly Myers-Briggs kind of personality test type questions and you'd come out with your love languages, you probably could tell by the hug I gave you when I first saw you that mine is touch. And along with me loving to talk and hug people a lot, I feel, I mean, I know it would probably teach me so much if I couldn't do that anymore.

But how do you cope with celibacy? I think it's really important. Celibacy is not for everybody, of course. And it's what monks are celibate, but I don't feel that it's helpful to look at celibacy as something you, like you can't do something or what you're losing, but more what you're gaining. Okay. Because you're sort of, yeah, you're giving up those kind of relationships

so that you can have a deeper relationship with yourself, with your practice, and you can be more available to others. You definitely don't become friendless. I've got loads of friends, very warm friendships with lots of people. It's just you're not having sex with people. And that's so shocking in our culture because sex is sort of promoted as such an important thing. It's a biological thing. It's part of the human body.

It's natural. But I just feel that for me, celibacy has given me time and space to focus on my practice. more on the meditation and what I want to do. Also, I find I have different relationships with people now from before sex was always on the agenda in some way and now it's off the agenda. You can relate from the heart more quickly with people. That's nice. I like that.

I like to really connect with people from the heart and there's no other agenda. I also really liked what you said about it's not letting go of something, it's giving you space for something else. Well, I think we should try and think of everything in life like that. Not what am I losing, but what am I gaining? Everything is gain, if you look at it that way, isn't it? I love that as well. Everything can be.

I've got to underline everything in my brain. Would you, I mean, obviously, We've talked about meditation so much. Would you be all right, letting us, I don't know, enjoy maybe a five-minute meditation. Would you talk me through or anybody that's watching or listening something? Yeah, let's do that. Should anybody like go and get themselves in a comfy? Yeah, and you can sit on a chair.

I know that traditionally you see pictures of people sitting cross-legged on the floor. Yeah, but you can also sit on a chair like this. but it is quite good to sit with good posture if you can. Obviously, within your own physical setup, sit in whatever way is comfortable, but some kind of good posture where you're as upright as possible, and your hands can be in your lap or on your knees, whatever suits you. And the first step is always to bring your attention into your body. I mean, that sounds ludicrous because obviously we are here,

but often our mind is very distracted somewhere else completely. so just bring your mind to where your body is. Feel the weight of your body on the chair. Feel your hands resting on your lap. And then start with a moment of compassion. It's always good to sow the seed of compassionate intention at the start of a meditation session. By making a prayer or a wish or a deep intention,

may I meditate. for my own benefit and the benefit of all beings, may this help me develop greater compassion. And then bring your focus to your body and relax your shoulders, relax all the different muscles in your body, relax your face, try to connect with your breathing, just let your breath be natural. You don't need to breathe deeply or slowly,

or differently to how you normally breathe, just let it do its own thing. Feel the breath in your body. Feel how it makes your chest or your belly just rise and fall rhythmically like a wave. And when your mind wonders, keep gently bringing your attention back to your breath. Bring your focus to your face.

Feel the air coming in and out of your nose. Or if your nose is blocked, then your mouth. Feel the air brushing against the skin at the edge of your nostrils, as the air travels in and out of your nose. Let your mind focus on that place of entry and exit of the air, or your lips if you're breathing through your mouth. When you get distracted, at some point you realize you got distracted and just gently return to the breath. Now focus on your body again. feel your hands resting in your lap, feel the chair under you, feel the ground under your feet, and end with a promise to yourself that you're going to meditate whenever you can,

out of kindness to yourself and kindness to others, and stop there. So just being present, being here, I think that's the key, because when we talk about beginning again, wouldn't you say we begin again in each moment? Wouldn't you say that every moment is a chance to begin again? It can be that simple. Every day, every moment, you're fresh, you're new, renewed. And that's what meditation can do.

Literally, I adore you. You're absolutely brilliant. I have the best time. You're very sweet. Thank you. I feel so lucky. I get to talk to you. Thank you so much.

I've just enjoyed this last, I don't know how long we've done. I have too. I've just enjoyed it so much. It's been a great chat. And, you know, food for thought as well. It's just, and I know it's going to help a lot of people. So thank you so much. Thank you.

I'm going to give you another hug. I'm sorry, I can't help it. I'm just such a hungry person. I mean, I feel so good. I learnt a lot. I think my takeaways from that were around identifying feelings, which I think sometimes is hard. You're just in a huge ball of feeling,

and you just, I'm going to try and identify feelings, feel the feelings, and kind of integrate them into me, and then send out love. And that doesn't mean condoning what you've been through. That I really like that idea of even if something really terrible has happened, that you can let it go by accepting your feelings around it and then sending kind of love and understanding. Yeah, that was mega.

Then the other thing that blew my mind, because if I'm honest, when he was talking about micrometitations, before I was like, oh, I'm not quite sure what you mean. And then we got on to something else, and I'm so glad that we revisited it. Because when he started explaining what a micromeditation could look like, I thought actually mindful, doing something mindful, anything if you're in a high-stress situation

to take yourself kind of out of that fight-or-flight mode, feels so powerful. And I'm going to start using that today. And also I thought, what an amazing idea to go and be a monk or a nun for a year. Wow. I hope you enjoy.