Begin Again with Davina McCall - CEO of 'The Ordinary' Opens Up About Her Co-Founder’s Tragic Death

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall sits down with Nicola Kilner, the powerhouse CEO behind beauty empire DECIEM and founder of The Ordinary, to explore the highs and heartbreaking lows of her journey. From co-founding a $2.2 billion beauty empire in her 20s to navigating the tragic downfall of her business partner, Brandon Truaxe, Nicola opens up about the immense challenges she’s faced. She reflects on her father’s struggle with alcoholism, the resilience it instilled in her from a young age, and the lessons she’s learned about leadership, loss, and finding purpose in chaos. Raw, inspiring, and deeply personal—this is a story of strength, survival, and redefining success on your own terms. 📢 Drop a comment: What’s your biggest takeaway?  Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro (02:14) Nicola’s Childhood and Her Father’s Struggles with Alcohol (13:55) Early Entrepreneurial Spirit and the Power of Kindness (18:40) Meeting Brandon: A Life-Changing Connection (20:17) The Beginnings of Deciem: A Vision Takes Shape (23:37) How The Ordinary Was Born (31:51) (Ancient & Brave Ad) (33:10) (Adobe Ad) (34:13) Brandon’s Experimentation with Drugs (48:16) The Public Downfall (1:08:17) The Tragic Loss of Brandon (1:15:55) Recognizing the Signs and Offering Support (1:20:18) Starting Over and Finding Joy in Life (1:27:58) Championing Mothers in the Workplace (1:38:06) Davina’s Final Thoughts Sponsored by: Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet  Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Throughout this entire conversation, I've thought about 20 people that I need to send this to. You had this idea for the TripAdvisor for skincare. People asked like, why was it so successful? It was common sense. I remember from the second I met Brendan, he was a genius. You couldn't help but like being or of him. Then we launched the ordinary at the end of 2016. The business was exploding.

It's quite mad what you guys did. Brandon sounds like a brilliant guy. He sounds like a maverick. So when did you first start noticing that something was. off with him. I've never seen a human change so quickly. He'd left his body. Everyone was petrified.

What would you call it? A psychotic break? It's so hard to diagnose. It was all on Instagram. It was very public. Were you devastated? He shut down the whole company. That was the point when then everyone had to step in.

So then a court order was applied to remove him. And I was seven months pregnant at that point. Where is he like? is he saved, what's he doing? And then he passed away. I feel like in many ways I still haven't stopped to process a lot of it. I don't know what you can do differently. So I think what I've learned is... This podcast is called Begin Again, and you've done that again and again and again.

And now, where are you at? I can't think of a better way to end than with that. Today I'm going to be talking to Nicola Kilner, and she is an incredible... businesswoman. She was the co-founder and CEO of DESEM, a beauty brand, umbrella brand that had the ordinary, which became a billion pound selling business. I love this woman and I think she's going to bring something for everyone, young or old, ideas, inspiration and lots of life experience. Oh, by the way, if you haven't subscribed yet, don't forget to subscribe because then you can get lots more episodes.

I'd like to go back to where you were born. Were you born in Sheffield? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I was born in Sheffield and spent all of my life there until I went to university. My mum and dad were both from Sheffield. Everyone in my kind of family was from there. And like I love Sheffield. I think it's just like that northern city where everyone is kind and warm. Has like a bit of brick to themselves too. Tell me what your dad was like because he sort of encouraged you, didn't he, on the business side of things. Yeah. So for me, my dad was just this. like so much charisma, so much energy. You know, he was the kind of person that would like light up every room, you know. My mum was kind of more reserved, like a little bit more in the wings. But my dad was kind of just the life and the soul and the energy.

And, you know, I remember we used to, like, growing up watching your big brother. And, like, he'd always like, come sit on my knee, have a cuddle. Like, so kind of very loving. And but at the same time, I think he, he had a challenging upbringing. I remember he was like the first child to ever get. expelled from his junior school. I think he started smoking

when he was like 10 and, you know, and I maybe don't know all the complexities, but I think he maybe had challenges in his childhood. And as much as he was

this like energy and this light and this charisma, he also had kind of moose swings and, you know, you would know when to be scared. So he would sometimes

make you scared like he was that erratic. If he was angry, I remember like the whole house would be in silence and just like creeping around with my mum and feeling that fear. More just from, you know, never from violence or anything, but more just from

him being angry and like the mood swings that would be there. It's interesting, isn't it, trying to learn how to handle someone's anger and how frightening it can be even though violence is not the threat

that it's the perception of the anger and how that makes you feel and behave it's such a strange thing because you don't think you're going to get hit but you feel like you might at any moment yeah and I even though I hate confrontation like I'm very happy to like have like a heated debate like I'm happy to disagree with someone

as long as it's like respectful. Like there's respect there. But I hate and like, you know, I'm lucky my husband's super calm. Like I don't think we've ever had a raised voice and, you know, the 15 years we've been together. Because I'd get like, like, sad if there was like ever that feeling of like anger or confrontation. But it's interesting because, you see, I've only actually ever been to two therapy sessions because I felt like there was just some stuff that I was kind of crying about.

And it's one of the things why I feel, very mentally and emotionally stable, but I was like actually, the fact that I would cry quite easily about a couple of topics, I was like maybe there is more to evolve. Do you mind me asking what those topics were? Mainly when I talk about like either my dad dying

or Brandon dying, and I think it's just those periods of, I don't know, like, and even now actually that's me just talking about my dad then, like normally I'd be crying. It's just like good sign. So it's really interesting because one thing she said to me was like,

most success, like she was, so I basically, and my dad eventually became an alcoholic. He, he always liked to drink, but was never kind of dependent. But quite quickly, something kind of happened, and I think he, he then lost his job. I even think things like, you know, me and my sister moving out when we went to university, like kind of just this loss of purpose, I think kind of things escalated quite, quite quickly. But anyway, it's interesting because she said actually so many success. successful people are those that come from, a family where they almost have like one, like an alcoholic or kind of like a challenging parent. And then the other parent, like my mum, who's just the

most loving, kindest, calmest, sweetest, like most stable, supportive person. And she was like, that combination, she was like, if you've grown up with like medium trauma, actually it kind of creates you to be who you are. And it's one of those things where like, how you think about my strengths and it's you know never being like the smartest or any of those things but i think i'm a really good reader of people and emotions and actually like when you like read into actually like growing up in a childhood like that you read the room you know when to stay silent you know when to like ask a quite like and i don't think you necessarily realize that as a child what you're learning but actually learning for me like growing up in that environment then when you become business

and it's ups and downs and so much shit happens along the way. You're actually just like, I'm always calm. Like nothing phases me. And I think that's because actually like, I remember like, you know, my mum, if my dad was in a bad mood, like we'd be petrified to go back in the house and just like not want to make any noise in case it like triggered him being angry. It was interesting that you said that he became an alcoholic because when you were talking, I thought this sounds like the kind of behaviour.

that we adopt around an alcoholic because you're not quite sure when they're just going to flip and completely change in one moment but it sounds like he was it's what we would call a dry drunk it was someone who was behaving like an alcoholic and yet he wasn't drunk

yeah and yeah and like he always lied to drink but I never remember it was like consistent you know he was the kind of person that would you know have a couple of glasses of wine with dinner know, he'd have a vodka before bed, but I never remember any peaks of there being like a drunk episode. But you see quite quickly, and I think, you know, when he, and actually I remember the doctors in hospital saying to us, like, he, he was almost unlucky because they said actually how quickly he deteriorated. Wouldn't normally happen. They were like, normally people can actually survive years of drinking heavily.

whereas actually within like probably about three years he'd gone but I also remember at one point the doctor's taking to it's like with alcoholism like it's a terminal illness sorry I thought it was it

no it is I don't know if you know my mum was an alcoholic so I totally get I get you but yeah I remember a doctor just taking us in true It's like it is a terminal illness because even if he ever stops drinking, like he's always going to be there.

Like there's always going to be triggers. And I remember like he'd be in hospital. And he'd walk out of hospital to go to an off-license to bite a bottle of vodka. And you're like, you're in hospital. And I feel like, I'm so grateful that I think we're starting to know so much more about. Addictions and mental health and like, I hope there becomes like much more treatment and awareness because when someone's brain is effectively the thing that's ill.

Obviously we'll talk about Brandon later, but it was like a similar thing. But when it's someone's brain, like they can't themselves see the illness. Like, and not to say it's easier, but like if someone has cancer, like there's a test result, there's a treatment plan and largely everyone's aligned. I'm like fighting to get that person.

and better, when it's like an addiction or mental health, the brain is telling that person that nothing's wrong and like that everyone else is kind of out to get them. And you can't get that support. And I also think there's, there's like a stigma as well. I think that I can remember with my dad, like, we tried to hide it. Yes. I feel so straight that we could never just say what we're suffering from. Yes, there is. Yes, there is. I remember visiting a good girlfriend of mine I was at school with and I found out she was in hospital and I went to visit her and she was yellow

and her eyeballs, the whites of her eyes were yellow and I was like I could help you you know do you want me to help you get you into treatment she said it's a tough one that she said I just don't know it's hard to let go of this And I thought, but you know you're going to die if you don't.

She said, yeah, but it's still hard to let it go. And I thought, wow, that's the choice. Yeah. Let go or die. And it's still a hard choice. Yeah. It's. And when it gets to that point, you love drinking so much.

Yeah. That you can't, you'd rather die than not drink. Yeah. And I think it's sometimes hard. to like empathize with it because for me like I think I have a very healthy relationship like love a few drinks with my friends but like you know I don't particularly like drink in the week or at home so to me the thought of like I'm going to like not see my children like I'm going to lose my life for a drink it's like hard to comprehend which is why I think like for me it does

help to just understand like the brain is so powerful and if that person's brain really is changed to that way like it's hard to mean them back but yet I remember like the yelling as to like the smell but it's not even the it's not the smell of the alcohol on the breath it's like it's like it's sleeping yeah it's like you're rotting from the inside

how is your mother through all of this she was good she was just like strong in a way of you know it's difficult when when someone's very like a strong character and powerful and he's always you know my mum was

stay at home for many years and when you know she she worked but it was like part-time receptionist kind of things here and there so like my dad was you know they were very traditional in like the roles my mom did all the cooking the cleaning so I think it was difficult because I don't think anyone I mean no one could have stopped my dad from drinking and like and I think it's one of the things you always thought like could we've done anything differently but again I think we're still as a society and it's great that I think there's so much more awareness coming about alcohol. But we still, it's like all this thing,

like you still have to justify more not drinking than drinking. Yes. And it's still like as a society, like we kind of, I don't think fully understand how addictive it is. Yeah. But yeah, my mum was super strong, but she was just incredibly warm. And like I think for me, I'm my sister. Like she just, you always felt her unconditional love and she was there.

And also I think I, I also have the respect that. like I knew she would never leave him, but I loved her for that. It was kind of a like, we're a family like through thick and thin, like we're together. We're staying as a unit. Like, we will survive this. Okay. One of the things that you mentioned earlier was the quite traditional aspect of your family

about your mum playing traditional kind of mum, housewife role with part-time jobs and then your dad being the provider. But your dad seemed really keen on trying to help you. become more than that. Do you think he saw an entrepreneurial flair in you, or do you think he was just trying to say, you can do more than just being a stay-at-home mom, you could go into business?

Because didn't he gift you business books for Christmas and things like that? That was more me asking for them. Oh, was it? So I think I was more that... How old were you then when you were asking for business books? Oh gosh, probably like, from definitely from like 12, 13. and like I used to love watching like Dragon's Den and just but again like I think a lot of and like we you know we were definitely comfortable like middle class and like you know a lovely

house and kind of lucky the mum didn't have to work but we didn't have spare cashing so I always had this feeling like I want to have freedom and life like I want to go on the holidays I want to I want to buy what I want and I don't want to rely on a man or anyone else for that like I just want to kind of be in control of and playing what I want and kind of no one having to have an opinion on that. So I think that was more of my motivation. And I think again, like seeing, you know, when my, it was like a difficult chicken negative, like when my dad got ill, he obviously lost his job. And then that kind of made it worse.

Like, because it's also like a business, you're an employee. And if you don't do the service, eventually, like the paychecks stop and you lose that. So I think even seeing that made me kind of like, gosh, I don't want anyone to be able to dispose of me. Like, I kind of want to be in control and kind of really just, like, own my own destiny a lot more. So you did business at uni? For me, university is one of those things that,

I really think you need to go unless you want to become a doctor a lawyer. Like, you need to learn, like, that field. So to get into business, if there's anybody watching and they think their kids are into it, you don't need to go. That's interesting. I do think university is just a great life experience. I think that age of like 18 to 21, the fact you can go to another city, you live a way, like you're learning so many skills of like independence, making new friends.

So I feel like it's worth it from that perspective. But from business, you could go into another company and get that experience. So I was kind of like a little bit back and forth that spoke to my head of six women who is also my business studies teacher. And she told me about this course, which was a business. studies in management course where effectively you did the first year as normal at university and then years two and years three you got sponsored by a blue ship company so I did mine at boots and it was just like the best experience because within so like when I finished university after three years those two years I'd done four different roles at boots like seeing different areas of the business and actually

boots are a phenomenal employer for actually just like really looking after their people like investing in growth. So I worked in, as the assistant buyer on premium fashion brands. And that was a time when there was like lots of new brands coming in. So I really enjoyed getting to work with kind of these indie brands and giving them advice and okay, look, we're going to list you, but you need a PR agency, you know, you need all of these things in place to actually make sure that that consumers are coming in to buy the products. And through that, I think I was lucky that they kind of spotted that. I think I had a slightly different skill set. I think it's much more common now around, but then at the time.

And they actually created a brand new role for me, which was to be their buying manager for innovation, which they'd never had before. And this was really someone who could kind of go and find new brands, but really just handhold them and say, like, come into boots, like, we're not scary, like we're going to work with a plan on how you actually can have success in boots, so not just get the listing and then, you know,

we return the stock six months later. How old were you at this point? I think I was like 22. This is, yeah. You know how amazing that is. Yeah. For a 22 year old to get an entirely new role made for her. Yeah.

That's incredible. And like I remember you were just going into the corridor with my mum like because it wasn't expected and you know, they're like to get to a buyer. My role was to move sideways into healthcare, you know, like they have all these career plans like you need to do this and you need to do this. This is the normal trajectory. unexpected. I would like to ask you. So you were at Boots. They'd created this role for you. You did really enjoy being at Boots, but in earlyish 2000s, was it 2011? Did you meet Brandon? Yeah. So I'd say Brandon was with his previous beauty company called Indeed Labs. So he'd been one of the brands that I'd be nurturing.

And I remember from the second I met Brendan, he'd like bounce into reception and just, when someone's just so, you know when you just fall in love with someone instantly. like this person, like he was a genius, but also just actually his personality was just like, you couldn't help but like be in awe of him. So I met him when he was doing an Indeed and we did a couple of launches through the innovation program that I was managing. And then suddenly out of the blue, I got an email to say that he'd left indeed. And I was like, like, oh my gosh, what's happened? Because I mean, their product launches were so successful at Boots. It was like some of the biggest launches we'd ever had. And I was also like gutted. I was like, I don't. want this person to be gone from my life, kind of what's going to happen. So this was happening.

And at the same time, like I'd always wanted to have my own business. And I'd found that since working in beauty, all of my friends, family, and I was like, well, what's the best mascara? What is the best foundation? What's the best serum? And I was thinking kind of around, you know, if you went on holiday, you'd go on trip advisor and, you know, you'd look at rankings and reviews, but it didn't really exist the same way for beauty. So I'd message Brandon me like, oh, look, I have this, like, business idea that I really want to do, but I would love some advice, like when you're next in London, because he's a you. He lived in Toronto.

Like, could we meet? So I think quite quickly, he was in London, I met him, and I spoke about my idea. And he was like, perfect. I'll help you build that, but will you come and help me do DESEM? And like, we'll do both together. So it was like, perfect.

What's interesting when you're talking about meeting Brandon and you had this idea for the trip advisor for skincare, but he also had DESEM. Could you just explain for anybody that's watching that didn't know the beginning concept of DESEM, to me, knowing my partners and an entrepreneur, you know, I've got friends that have started businesses, it's quite mad what you guys did because everybody always goes, start one business and really concentrate on that, but that's not what you did.

I know. So Desioms from the Latin word for the number 10. So it was all about building 10 friends at once. And the thinking behind this was, first of all, like, we wanted to bring everything in house. We wanted to have our own labs, our own creative team. And if you're just building one brand, like, it's difficult maybe to justify all of those resources, which is why most, you know, most entrepreneurs, you end up outsourcing everything. And like, that is one way that does work for so many people. But for us, we felt like when you outsource, like, they're wearing other people's

hats too. They're not like living and breathing it like, like we are. So we wanted to bring everything in house but also if I was flying to Australia to meet a buyer on one brand well why don't I go meet 10 buyers and do 10 brands and actually build so many more efficiencies by doing it that way and so that was kind of the thinking behind it and you see another thing that I think was really interesting was everyone we hired had very little experience really and again partly that was because as a startup you can't like experience means high salary we couldn't afford anyone with high salaries So effectively, everyone we were hiring were early, like in the 20s, out of college, out of school, you know, maybe they'd had kind of one role. But actually, that was a successive decim because experience can really work from, in many ways.

And like there are certain fields you need experience. But if you want to do something differently, experience can sometimes be the worst thing you have. Because experience means you think about doing it the way everyone else does it. If you don't have experience, then you don't know. know and actually so like we often talk about common sense and and like I think the ordinary is such a good example of it's like people ask like why is it so successful and I'm like it was common sense like people want to know the ingredients like if you have a headache you would walk into a pharmacy you know you'd go and buy paracetam or aspirin like we know when it comes to healthcare the basic ingredients we would

buy for our needs yet you would walk into a beauty hall and you know maybe like a retinal or haleronic had some awareness, but largely ingredients were not known. So you would go and pick which serum you were like moisturising you wanted to buy, which was largely just based on either a recommendation or maybe it was a... Nice packaging. Packaging or whoever caught your attention first on a cancer in a department store. Like people didn't have that awareness of ingredients, which is so important because like you need to know like, you know for some people, retinal works amazing for other people,

maybe vitamin C is better. But if you don't know which ingredients you're using, how do you actually know what's really working for you? So I think, you know, Desien was lucky that it was formed with just young, hungry people who were naive, but naive in all the best ways. Like I say now, like, part of our problem with Desium is we've lost a lot of naivety. Because we know when we're going to get told off. Like, we know the way to do things.

Whereas in the early days, we'd just be like, sorry, like, we didn't know. We were just kind of, we were trying. But it's also really interesting. because the ordering was the 11th brand we launched. Right. And, you know, the other brands before the ordering, we still have Neod's still out there, so we still have a couple of others.

And the others we did retire, but they weren't failure, well, nothing's a failure because you always learn. But, I mean, they did okay, but back then we made the mistake of getting a listing too early, like into a retailer, when actually the demand wasn't there. And I remember when I had the privilege of meeting Leonard Lauder,

Like one of the biggest advice he gave to us, he was like, you always have to make sure demand leads distribution. Like your demand has to be ahead. Like you need people to want you and they can't quite get you yet. Right. And I think too often it happens the other way. And actually, I think it is a good thing now with social media and like the way you can actually build demand for a brand. You can kind of test it. And then if consumers want it, you can then follow the distribution strategy afterwards, which I think is.

It's just much better, but yeah, it kind of, it took us a lot of attempts and, you know, we did a hair care brand, like we had a supplement brand. So we were trying in different fields. And again, it was interesting because the ordinary, it came out of kind of frustration that we had some niod, which is one of our other skincare brands, which is really about like the next generation of skincare technologies. it's always evolving, it's always looking at new. Now, new doesn't mean better because if you went into a pharmacy and you saw a painkiller, which was brand new £100, you'd probably be like, why am I going to buy that? Because I know paracetamal works, it's safe, it's effective and it's going to cost me like 50p. So new doesn't always mean better when there's actually something there,

but also new is a way that you can kind of like look at different technologies. And actually we looked a lot into pharmacy to say all of these ingredients. exist and some of these ingredients have been around decades but just like paracetamol it doesn't mean they're bad like these are some of the most effective trusted skin care ingredients out there so actually let's just make them transparent like let's tell the consumer like this is the ingredient this is the percentage let's make it accessibly priced because the reality is those ingredients there's there's no patents anymore because they've all expired and therefore they can be manufactured it anywhere, which means the cost prices come all the way down.

Then we also had efficiencies. So you'll notice like most of our, you know, the packaging, like the glass bottles, they all share the same. So actually it's just a new label. So there was so many efficiencies we made through the production process too. But interesting, I think about that. It's an efficiency. But that's one of the great things about the brand.

It gave the brand a look and a feel that everything was uniform. But actually for you, it was an efficiency. That's really clever. Well, and I find the aesthetics really interesting because, you know, it seems a very simple design, except simple, so complex. Like, I remember the creative team going through so, like, you'll never believe how many shades of white there are until you're trying to pick the pantone for the white of the box. Because actually, like, it makes such a difference. But actually the design, also, the fact it was kind of, it was, you know, we really believe the ordinary is a brand for everyone. Like, there is a product.

it doesn't matter like your age, your gender, like who you are, like there's something for you. And again, I think before then a lot of beauty brands were, they were designed with an age group in mind, with a gender in mind. And actually that's not what skin care's about. Because again, we took a much more like this pharmaceutical approach and then applied it to skincare. So Brandon at this time was you were co-CEOs, would you call it yourselves that? He was CEO and I was co-ceo. And effectively, you know, Brandon, so he studied computer science. So he saw the world very much in black and white.

Like he was a kind of tech person. And interestingly, the reason he got into beauty was because during tech, he did a like a university scholarship in a big beauty company where he designed a software program where they could effectively see which ingredients would work and which wouldn't. And it was in that where he saw the cost price of some products. but he couldn't understand why like the margin on an eye cream was so much bigger than something like a facial cleanser and he was kind of told well it's just marketing

as like what the consumer wants to pay and he was like no sure like in his mind it was you know this is the price and then you add the markup and kind of the margin would be standard when actually like you know typically out there an eye serum from most brands would have the highest thing because you've got such a small milliliter whereas actually even like cleansers are really hard

because actually you've got such a big volume and it's got good ingredients in there so actually just the size can really make a big difference in pricing yet the consumer's prepared to pay much more for an ice syrup than they are for a cleanser. So there's actually like these nuances which makes sense but like when you're coming from a black and white world you're like that doesn't seem fair to the consumer.

So that's kind of what spiked his interest really in coming into the beauty industry. So that's interesting. He and you had a similar way of thinking from the get-go. You know you're like, hang on a minute, I want to do it this in a nice way and he's thinking, hang on a minute, the consumer's getting ripped off here. Yeah. And I feel like that's, we've always put the consumer first.

But like with Brandon, like, he just had so much in a good. Like, he wanted to make the world a better place and not be a scamming. And, you know, I think it's what was a shame. I think there was a lot of people that were skeptical about skincare. Yes. And, you know, Brandon actually had a great quote around, you know, like airplanes fly in the sky. Like, you think before that was possible. it would blow your mind that someone would say that's possible.

And like everyone accepts it because you can believe it. Yet, you know, people don't really think like a serum can improve their skin. Even though actually that's like a much easier thing than making an airplane take people into the sky. Yes. Oh my God, wait, you've just blown my mind a bit there. That's quite, that's quite funny. I haven't really thought about that. So like somebody going, yes, planes can fly.

Then somebody else's going, this ingredient really does work in this serum. You think, yeah, whatever. I've got to say, I have been super cynical about skincare in the past. I was very like the people that you were referencing earlier. Yeah. It's funny that, isn't it? Yeah, and I think because for so long, I think people did overpay. Yes, and we were a bit angry about that.

Yeah, and I also think people were overpromised. So, like, one of the things that we were very, particularly in the early days, like we, and we've kind of got into it a little bit more recently, particularly in the early days, we didn't do before and after. Like we tried to stay away from that because too often. And if we do do, like we always use our own people, like we don't use models. Because I think people sell an unrealistic expectation. And like everyone's skin is different and it's going to react differently.

Yes. And also like there's so much on like usage consistency. Like, you know, when you do a clinical trial, it's being used perfectly. That's not the reality at home when people forget one and like maybe they use too much. They don't use the right amount. So we always try to lead much more with like just the science. And, you know, with the pricing of the ordinary, if someone spends seven pounds on the serum, like their expectations were really much lower.

Yes. So then they see it works and they're like, wow, like that's really now working. I want to go and like layer up and kind of build my regime. Whereas when someone's spending 70 pounds, they're expecting the world. Because they're spending that, they're seeing like this gorgeous Hollywood actress. I want to look like Christy Turlington. Exactly. Like they think that's going to be the outcome.

So I think again, it was. was like just this new approach around like, again, just being more honest, being like, this is good skin care. Like, it's not going to change you, but like, hopefully it will like, you'll see those improvements in your texture and like the things that we can address. I'm excited because I'm going to introduce you to my new show sponsor, Ancient and Brave. I love a secret weapon. Well, this isn't really a secret because I've been banging on about it for years. It's collagen. And more specifically, ancient and brave. True collagen. It's been part of my routine for years and it's completely tasteless, odeless and dissolves in anything. Coffee, tea, smoothies, even just water. But this is why I swear by it. Collagen levels naturally decline as we get older. I know, I know, it's so unfair. And that basically affects everything. Skin, hair, joints, muscles, you name it. But true collagen helps keep everything strong,

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Really exciting and fun to be around. So when did you first start noticing that something was a bit off with him and what changed? So again, similar to my dad, he was very quick kind of towards the end. And, you know, I think there's an element of when you see, like, geniuses and entrepreneurs, like, I think there are many who are potentially on, like, the spectrum because I feel like their brains are, they're different. They think differently, yeah. They are just constantly thinking and pushing boundaries and, like, their brain never switches off. So I feel like there's always this fine line between, like, it's almost like between, like, genius and I don't know if it's insanity or like what that is.

But, like, they kind of, like, balance this away through it, which is what makes them so special. I think that's quite an interesting thing. I've always looked at people who were super clever as being in some way disadvantaged. Yeah. That friends of mine who were very, very clever always struggled in some way. It sounds like Brandon had a slightly different type of mind. Yeah. So Brenda's mind was like his knowledge of science.

You know, we would, he would drop me off at, you know, 10 p.m. and he's picked me up the next morning at 7 a.m. And he's already read like 10 papers on an ingredient and looked at this and this and I'm like, whoa, I just went to sleep and woke up. So like that was his mind and like his level of understanding. And so he really was like the product development and kind of like he was that creative genius.

Then I think I was the person where I was setting up the officers doing the distribution, like looking after the team, like kind of building that side of it. So I think it was a good balance. And I think also because, again, Brandon probably some similarities to my dad, but like, Brandon was the kind of person where people could always be scared of him. But it was interesting because I never felt that, but I felt it on behalf of the team. Yes. Do you think that's because you're super honest? Because I always think that people, I worked at Models 1 when I was a teenager and my boss was quite scary.

But he never was scary to me because if I messed up, I just go, I've messed up. can you help me? Yeah. Rather than try and hide your mess up because you're a bit scared. Yeah. And then he'd go, why have you hidden the mess up now? I can't help you. Yeah.

That kind of thing. Yeah. I probably think, yeah, like the honesty, just the owning up. And I think the fact that I'm very calm. And probably also like he knew, and not that anyone who makes mistakes me to be like, I always just approached everything with like doing my best. And you see with Brandon, like he, and he knows, it's interesting because like the world's also changed a lot. And yes.

I often say to like a few of the team members who, you know, spend a lot of time with Rinder 2. I'd love to see what he was, would be like in today's world. Like he was a workaholic and I remember at one point. So in Canada, the standard time off you get is 10 days, like two weeks. It's crazy in America, isn't it? In Canada. It's like the, oh my gosh, how do you live? And maternity leave is what?

How long? Like three months. Three months. Canada's better for that. Sorry, US is that. But yeah, the like, legal standard for vacation for holiday is 10 days yet. Mad.

But I remember being in Brenda's office and our HR person came and she was like, someone's like asking for more holiday. And he's like, who? Who was asking for more time? Because he was, you know, just this like we should get in a startup like everyone. And again, like I think we were fortunate that like back then like most of us. So we didn't have families. We were all in our twenties and we live.

We like lived it breeder like. Yes. We wanted to work the evenings and weekends because we were all. engagement and and you know also like everyone had options in the company so everyone kind of felt like they owned it and everyone knew we were like building this together and like this is so exciting and you know i see things like that so like people were kind of like oh or you know if if he saw something he didn't like he'd be like who designed this and you'd see if i'm like oh yeah you can't be like that so i feel like i was always kind of the you know it's kind of like

them probably playing the role of my mum have just been like calming things smooth and things kind of playing the mediator in some roles. Did you ever moot the idea with him about having some time off or, you know, could you see him burning out a bit or? You see, it's interesting with burn out. And I think in general, actually, like the work life balance. And again, I think one thing that I'm always respectful for is like, everyone chooses what works for them for work life balance.

And for me, like, I loved my, I would have hated to work my 20s. in somewhere that was nine or five because actually like I don't have that many hobby like for me like I loved it like you know when you're so passionate about something like I want to live and breathe it every day and it's interesting because now kind of where we are now

with Medesium and like I know who I'm talking to so like some of those early team members and now like you know we all because we're all the same age we all have kids like we've kind of gone through like the life stages together that for example like I've always loved the flexibility that

If my kids are in bed and Sean's out and I'm at home, I want to work because actually if that means that then the next day I'll take Luke to a swimming lesson and I'll have like the time off when it matters to me. So I feel like balance can be a really good thing if it works for you. And I also have a lot of respect for the people who are like, I want to work 9 till 5 and switch off and actually don't come to me, don't communicate, I don't want to think about it. But Brendan's someone, like, his everything was work.

and actually one of the things that I knew we were like his family but the thing that really hit me was when he passed away and then we saw his will every single person in there was a decium employee and that is how much of a family it was so like when you know people

did you guys not know that before the one no I'd never seen I mean but I guess like I also but it didn't surprise me because I knew like we were his life like and again it's it's so hard to explain because when I talk about it sounds like a cult and it was but like I was happy to be in the cult like you know we were like I think business I think I've heard Stephen say this I think a business I mean I'm using

like the word cult obviously is not a very positive one but it's got to be a team but that's so tight and so together and so supportive of each other that I get that I get that But there's something, it's really interesting learning something about someone after they've died. Yeah. And from a will. So what you're saying, it was mostly work people, not family. But you see, we were his family. Yeah.

But did he have family? It was complicated. Like his mum passed away. His father was sort of like, he wasn't close to any of his family. But again, what was interesting was a lot of stuff I learned. it's so strange because I felt like I was like, we were best friends and we were. And like, you know when you know someone,

but then you don't know them, but you still know them. And to give you examples, I didn't know he had a partner. Now, and like this is, we've been like eight years of like inseparable together. And I'd go to, you know, we'd be traveling. We'd always be together.

And like he would never, you know, I feel like in the early few months, you'd maybe like try about like, oh you know you're dating and there'd be no and then there was just never any conversation after then so i kind of just assumed you know like he'd tell you if he'd met someone or not yeah he's kind of just on his own or whatever but he'd actually had a partner who worked at decim but i didn't even know this because i was just kind of i don't know you you don't question i guess like when you have that why didn't he tell you because i think he i don't think he wanted to discuss his

sexuality and you see he was he was from iran where actually like being gay isn't really something that's accepted. And I think it's something that one of the things, and I actually feel like this is very topical at the moment because I can't believe how many companies are getting rid of like D.E. and I diversity, equity and inclusion. Yes. For me, like it was something the world had actually made progress with.

And when I look a lot about what happened with Brandon, I think pre-Decian, I think the world had made him feel like he didn't belong. Like he couldn't ever be who he truly was. Yes. And, you know, maybe that's because of childhood, like, growing up in a country where, like, something wasn't accepted had made him feel that way. So when I look at Desien, we are the most diverse company I think you would ever meet, which I love. And I think also a lot of that was probably, you know, Brandon's push in the early days. Like, it wasn't even an active push, but, like, I just look back and I'm like, gosh, like, we are such a beautiful,

blend of humans where and like we always as a company our north does belonging like for us the most important thing is that any of our team can just come and be who they are and and show up and and i find like that is what's so nice about humans like having different experiences different people yes all being human and the fact that companies are starting to to move away from something which i feel like was actually good progress just i feel feels a bit sad because i think it will lead more people like how Brandon felt. Like he couldn't be himself. Like he couldn't show up.

What's sad about Brandon is what I'm seeing is a man who was nearing on genius level. Amazing interpersonal skills. A great businessman full of energy, love life, but had a relationship with somebody at work that he couldn't tell anybody about, that he couldn't show. I wonder how much tension that brought to his partner, you know, between him, like, why can't we be out at the office? Why can't we?

I don't know whether that would have happened. That you didn't know something, that he couldn't open himself up fully to you. That's not being yourself, I would say, is the biggest weight in the world to carry, isn't it? And especially because, like, hopefully you'll realise this, but like, I feel like I'm the most open, loving person to any humans. Why couldn't you tell me? It's not even like he had to hide it from someone who maybe he would think would have like a different opinion of anything other than acceptance. But I also think it's hard maybe once you just keep going. And it's not even like he was living a lie.

I don't know maybe he was, but I think at some point it probably all just is going to take its toll on your brain. Of course. To kind of be living that way for so long. But you see the other thing, and like the thing with Brandon again, like when it comes down to brains, like it's so hard. to diagnose, like, what happened, like, the chicken and the egg kind of how it all came together. But towards the end of 2017, and so again, remember, we started Desiom 2013, the ordinary launched at the end of 2016. So it was going mad.

So, like, I mean, from the get-go, the ordinary just went bang, right? Yeah. So it had gone crazy at Desiom. So, yeah, so towards the end of 2017, Brandon had, again, again, again, again, it had, again. Again, I think this is a, again, maybe another common theme, I think, and this kind of level of geniuses with like high brain activity. He got intrigued by drugs, but by this, I'm talking about magic mushrooms because this is something, yeah, where it's kind of like it's to do with the brain, it's due

with creativity, it's about actually how can I kind of explore different parts of my brain. And again, like, until this point, you know, with Brandon, he, he didn't even drink alcohol. Like he was a Diet Coke, French fries, just kind of a... So he'd never experimented with drugs or alcohol or anything. I mean, he'd have like an occasional glass of wine. Like, he was like 10 years older than me, so like early 30s. Wow. You know, he'd have a glass of wine if we were at supplier dinner and like he felt like he had to,

but never from choice. Like, he'd always just prefer a Diet Coke. So anyway, it was... But again, like he wanted to go to Amsterdam to do it where it was legal. So like he was a maverick in many ways but he also didn't want to like break the rules or get in trouble. So you wanted to go to like Amsterdam

and just kind of explore the idea of your brain. So that's, so I feel like it started very innocently which I think it often can do. Did you notice a difference in him after the first time that he took that? Did he have a psychotic episode that first time on psilocybin or was it something that built?

It's a difficult one because like I saw changes. but not in it. So like, and this is just a silly example, like, but he became vegan. And like, it was just things were like,

and that's not to say, I don't know, there were like changes where he'd been quite consistent in the way he was. So I could tell like things were changing in his brain, but nothing from like a worrying perspective. But the thing with Brandon,

you know, his whole brain was addictive, but in the best possible, like when I say he dropped me off and he'd just spent the whole night researching something. And like he was addicted to work. Yes. To get into something and just go forensic.

In the best way that like I think makes an entrepreneur and kind of makes that type of person. But obviously the downside of that is when your personality is like that and you're doing it with an addictive substance, then I think that kind of path starts to start to unwind. So I feel like this kind of all started the last couple of months of 2017. And also within this, so we just got investment from S.A. Lauder companies and like it just felt like something. really going to happen here. So we kind of just got this investment and obviously this then happened with Brandon. So then it was over the Christmas period

and he wanted to go and just kind of explore and he told me he was going to like go to some extremes. Because again, what does that look like? The amount of what he was taking. Oh, okay. So that's also interesting. So he's gone from trying it a bit

and then he's like, okay, I'm going I'm full whack. Yeah. But again, like, it was coming from a, like, a good intention. Oh, so I get what you're saying. What he's trying to do is to be superhuman. It opened his mind, not escape something. No.

He's not escaping a bad life or a trauma or... No. He's... And that's what, like, it came... And not like, taking criticism, but, like, he was coming from, like, a good heart. Like, he just wanted to, like, be better, more creative. Like, kind of have these... you thoughts and stuff. Do you know why I think

this is quite good to talk about because we've talked about psilocybin a little bit on this podcast already and about quite a bit about the benefits. I've talked to Professor David Nutt about that and I talked to a wonderful one about taking it and it

helped her realise that she wanted to help women and da da da da. But we haven't discussed what happens when you are someone who is maybe a bit vulnerable mentally to something and you start thinking that you would love to take enormous amounts because you've got one of those brains that kind of is vulnerable but also adaptive but also you love that kind of deep thought but then there's an edge isn't there

there's a point yeah and I think it is so true because it kind of like out of all the drugs it feels like they get celebrated. And like, of course, there is so much research and like there are likely benefits of like the microdosing. But if someone's an extreme personality and it goes to the extreme, then then things change and things happen. So that was kind of the new year. And overnight it was an entirely different person he became.

And I remember I was in Australia. Me and my husband, we've gone to Australia and New Zealand for Christmas New Year. year and then because I had meetings there in the beginning of January. I remember it was like January 2nd and he was just like go straight to the airport, go and buy a first class flight, it doesn't matter how much it costs, go to the airport. He was like, just get your passport, just leave everything else, like it doesn't matter. Turn your emails off, like we're going to slow down and just meet me in Toronto. And I'm someone who I'm like, keep it.

I'm in hot weather. You're like, I need to just sort things. And, you know, we've always been frugal. And now you're telling me to just go and book a first class ticket. And did he sound normal? No. Like, I instantly knew it. You knew.

It changed. And it is interesting because even though, like, I can't really put my finger on any, like, specific examples before. I'd actually been getting headaches, which I never do. And I think it was, like, stress headaches of just knowing something was changing. And again, like, I was someone who's like, you know, never even smoked weed. Like I haven't done that well. So for me, I'm like, gosh, like, drugs are scary.

Any other drugs at the same time? No. Nothing. Just psilicide. Just at this point. And when I got to Toronto, it's like he'd gone. Yeah. He was like this cold.

Like, he was so warm. Like, oh, like, he'd be there at the airport to pick me up. He'd open the car door. You know, he was just someone who was just like so good, so warm. He cared so much about like his team. Because like I said, like the Desium team, like we were family. We went through everything together. Like so to suddenly be with someone when it was like this, this coldness.

But then again, he'd start to say things where, you know, he was like, we don't need it. We don't need time anymore. Like we'll just say I'll meet you in the morning in a coffee shop and we'll just bump into each other. Like let's not let time. and I'm like, I keep it, what time are you going to be there, you know? And then like he said about phones, like he was going to get rid of his phone because we don't need phones, it's too much communication. And he's saying things where because he's such a genius and I remember like bringing

Sean being like gosh, like he's saying these things like. And Sean's your husband. My husband. And like, is it just the next level genius of like, you know, because you try and keep up with someone's thinking in this way? And then you're like, no, actually like, that doesn't make sense. Of course we need time. Like, how can we get by if we don't have time?

So you kind of like trying to balance this just because I've never seen the human change so quickly. What would you call it a psychotic break or where someone's literally just gone? It's like he'd left his body. He was cold. It was like he was vacant. And it was just so difficult to understand what had happened. And then I mean everyone was petrified. Because one, it's scary seeing someone you love like this.

But then again, this is someone who is very powerful, can, like, have outbursts, can raise his voice. So you have all of these mixed emotions. And, you know, he summoned a few of us to one of our stores in Toronto, which is when he said, you know, like, the company's growing too fast, like, we should slow down. But again, like, this was, we'd kind of done everything together. And then suddenly it was kind of just this, like, like he was like, I'm decided this and we're going to stop this and do all these changes.

Oh, and you'd always been a team. Yeah, together. So I was like, okay, this is, this is strange, but like I have to kind of just figure out how to get through this. And then like the next few months it was just like so insane how someone, it changed. And it was all on Instagram. it was very public. And so then, so in the middle of February,

so this was kind of five or six weeks, and he just, we had done a brand partnership with someone, and he cancelled it on Instagram, without even telling this person that their brand had just like ended. So I was just like, that's really hurting people now.

And I was like, oh, you're okay? And that's so not what you are about. Yeah. You can't, I'm all up for doing things in a new way. and like being disruptive but like there's also just respect and kindness that like a values that we should never really and compromise on so I kind of like I said look like something and it's strange because until then like I'd been too scared to even address with him

that like something was wrong because like even I I was fearful of just like not really understanding how much change had happened and again maybe like being so in awe of someone's genius that you're kind of so like gosh like is this Maybe this is a plan. Yeah, maybe like this is the goodness. Yeah, you still see sparks of that within there. But I think the kindness is really what had gone, which was a big shot. So then he fired me in the February because effectively I'd started to be like, things aren't okay.

Which again, like he wasn't allowed to do that without, like everyone else being involved. I was like, okay, I'm just out of this situation, which is maybe like a good thing for a little bit. and again like I'd you know I'd married my husband like a couple of years before but I'd always because I was working so crazy I was like we can wait like a little bit longer until we have children so at this point I was like okay I'm out so actually I really want a child so like let's just try and have a baby so we were like super lucky that it happened like more or less straight away so I fell pregnant and then I was suddenly in like my personality is two parts I'm either I do a day of work and I'm like I want this crazy

and I want to do businesses and then I'd be like a church playgroup singing hop little bunny hop hop with my child and I'm like I want to be a stay-at-home mum like I'm like both extremes. I was exactly the same. I was either just work non-stop or I don't ever want to work again. Yeah, but I feel like each day I'm like depending on which day is. Yeah, that's so funny. I bet lots of mums relate to that. Yeah. And like you know it's such a small period of your life. And it's such a small period of their lives too, you know, where they're really little. No. So I was like, hey, I can have a baby. So I got pregnant and we like went away. We went to like a beat for a couple of months. And then again in this time like it's difficult because I'm seeing everything play out and like the team is still every single day like we're in contact. And I'm seeing how bad things are getting. But like it's difficult. I mean like everyone was powerless. Like the best thing everyone could do was just try and do their role in this quiet way as possible. quietly. Yeah.

But it's difficult when everything was so publicly played out. So then, so I felt pregnant late March and then in the, maybe like end of April early May, like, I just remember like, Brandon ringing me. He was crying. He was like begging me to come back and just feeling like, because again, this is someone I love. Like, and this isn't just a colleague.

This is someone who like, I see as like a best friend and we've been through so much. I was like, okay. I don't know if I can help, but I can't do anything on the outside. So at least let me go back and see what I could do. And in my head, I was like, you know, our baby's due at the end of December. So I've got the easiest get out. If it doesn't work and I can't do anything, then like I've got something else to look forward to. But even that, you see, I told Brandon quite early on I was pregnant because he was also like,

there was Instagram post, he would type whoever there'd be lawyers, It'd just be like this kind of crazy world. And again, knowing what he was a good human he was, I was like, look, if I just tell him like, look, I'm pregnant, I'm kind of just out of this now. But then he posted on Instagram that I was pregnant when I was like eight weeks pregnant and we hadn't even told anyone.

But even like that is something that isn't him. Yeah. So it's so difficult to even explain. Yeah. And like naivety on my side to even think he, but again, like, because you just hope the person's in there that you hope that actually like, you might respect that love what we like actually like yeah yeah um were you devastated

i don't know if devastated like i was devastated by the situation by him and but even in that you know like he was so much like i was pregnant i was happy i had a husband i had a life like okay i didn't want it on instagram before we told anyone but when someone else is suffering so much all I cared about was kind of like him and the team and like just this crisis that we were in. Can I also just point out something that I'm seeing at the moment is that you had this idyllic meeting with him, starting the businesses, really exciting. Everybody in the same loving environment, Desiom, caring, kind, maverick. Then suddenly the ordinary Estée Lauder, mega, everything, then. the stress that started at that point.

And I always think when you're carrying a baby, you become a different person because you are safeguarding someone else's life inside your life. And the amount of stress that must have been landing on you, even though you're happy and you've got your husband. But this must have been an incredibly hard time for you while you are making a baby. Yeah. And it's weird because I didn't feel it because I think I was just so, I was worried more about Brandon and the team and the situation we were in.

And I was like, I was very busy because it was kind of like, gosh, like, what are we going to do? Because again, like not only was this happening, but the ordinary was going to be. like this because even though this chaos was there like the so it hadn't affected the business and the business was exploding almost because of it because again like it was how much it was news publicity it was publicity like people were talking like have you seen this on instagram have you seen this brand have you seen this founder like people were like watching it unfold but they were also like they make amazing skin care like have you tried so that's so nuts yeah so then you have like you're scaling like it and like we do all of our own manufacturing we're building a new factory like

you're trying to like do all of this and and again I think maybe what helped at times was like Brandon was traveling a lot so actually I think there was like big periods of time where like he wasn't seeing the team that often and we were lucky that we also had some really strong people in the business who were kind of like carrying it through because again I think we were lucky because we had the history with Brandon that like he was like you know everyone's everyone loved him and you know you feel sorry for

someone when they're in this situation so you were all giving him a bit of slack yeah and then at what point did it escalate to the point where you thought okay this this isn't okay anymore were you all still hoping he's going to come back yeah well I remember the first time so he

and like he posted this on him on Instagram like he would post from like when he was sectioned in like different hospitals and like he was getting sectioned yeah i remember the first time it happened we were all relieved because you're like okay this is the turning point like he's going to get the help and like you have that that hope and then he was out five days later but he was out feeling like see told you i'm like there's nothing wrong with me because they've let me go and it almost made it worse yes and then it was this cycle and I think what was difficult was that, you know, I think the drugs escalated into like then trying

because again, like, and I say this is someone who's always kind of been too scared of drugs to get in, but I feel like when you have a feeling and you see that you can do things with your brain, I suspect it like can make you like, I want to try a new thing and it's like a spiral. It's addiction, you know, that can go. And so kind of it was all getting worse. And that's what I say when it's, I find it very difficult. And I mean, I'm not a doctor. And obviously that was his health.

But to really know which bits were drugs, which bits were mental health. And actually just the correlation between the two because I think they both just spiral each other. Yeah. I mean, whenever I've had friends with mental health issues and they've got a drug problem, it's just, it's like fuel to the fire. It's a terrible. And what kind of, what kind of additional drugs was he doing? So he spoke about, like, I wasn't there, so I didn't see to know, but he spoke on, on emails and on Instagram about things like taking Crystal meth. So I think.

So that's the worst of the worst. Exactly. And I think there was probably things in between. But when he started writing about that, it was kind of like, oh gosh, like. Game over. I mean, that's a really, really dark place to go. So if that's happening, that must have created the end quite quickly. Well, so the end came. And like I have to say throughout this whole period, like even the support we had from like the S.

a lot of companies, like the investors, like everyone was just, because everyone loved him, everyone was just like, we just want him to get better. But no one knows how to act in their situations. And especially it's like a new dynamic when it's all playing out on Instagram and and you know any email you send, any conversation will be posted. Like, you know, he'd be posted like the paramedics chasing him. Like it was just everything was being played out publicly, which then gives you just as humans another level of fear

because you kind of don't necessarily, when you're thinking about helping, it puts another thing behind you because you're like, okay, if I do this, I'm probably going to get publicly attacked by him on social, which whilst many people can see, what's happening, you know, you have comments, you're putting yourself into a situation that you don't necessarily... Which is quite possibly what he wanted, you know, I can't get attacked because they know I'll

post it. We were all like, we were all scared. And so then in the, in early October, so you know, really kind of just nine months in, he shut down the whole company and he basically said the stores were all shutting, the factories. And so like that was the point when then everyone had to step in. So then a court order was applied to remove him. Now, it was a temporary court order. Like, the point was like, he needs to just be removed for now so the company can survive.

Because, again, we had 1,500 employees. Like, it's a lot of people relying on livelihoods on being paid. And I think as well, you struggle with, we've shown him love. We've shown him, like, you've tried all of these different angles. And, you know, people say, you have to reach rock bottoms. You're like, okay.

Maybe that will be the trigger to wanting to get better. And sadly, it never was. Like, he never made it back. And I think that's one of the things that I struggle with, because knowing how much we were his family, I hate the feeling that that was taken away from him. And like already he must have been so lonely, so scared. and actually that that mixture of it being work and like your best friends and everything can

want it can be good in many in many ways but actually when it goes wrong i don't know i feel so sad and then so that was in october so then obviously that's when i got made sole CEO and i was seven months pregnant at that point oh my god so i'd gone from thinking like i wouldn't have kids until i stopped working and would like have all this time to then kind of being in this crisis situation but also just like it's double the work now never any doubt because it's kind of like look we have to survive this because also we're protecting it for brandon like we all thought he would get better like i don't think anyone ever thought it would end and again like end so quickly so yes you all want to make it work so it's there for him when he comes back god and

i can't believe the stress i mean i know you say you weren't stressed because you just had to do it but still that is difficult emotionally it's not that it's it's more the emotional weight of what was happening on you yeah it was emotional and i think the one thing i felt was almost this it was like the 24-7 anxiety of not knowing the next phone call the next email the next post like the next where is he like what's like is he safe what's he doing so that was really hard and then in January he passed away and it's difficult to even know like no one was there that night to know what happened

where was he? He was at his home in Toronto and his condo and he came over the balcony now it's difficult to know like I do not believe for a second that he that was suicide that night because he had too much to say

like he always had 10 words for one And especially in that moment, like, if it was, he'd have written an email, he'd have done a video. Like, he would have marked his last moments. So I very much don't believe he intended to take his life at night. Whether he had substances and he thought he could fly or, you know, he was very, like, maybe sat on the balcony. It was just such a windy night in Toronto. Like, it took him off balance. like no one knows anything other than like he was on his own and he came over the balcony.

But you see I also sometimes wonder, I find it interesting because he updated his, the last time he updated his will was at the end of 2017. So like just before he started this journey. And again I think like was it a long suicide in terms of a choice of like actually the ordinary was getting big and like a big business is stressful like because again like he he was the genius of of creativity formulations like i can't even say enough words about what a genius he was but he didn't like the headaches of people a big organization you know forecasting like all of the things that naturally come with rowing maybe like hiding who he was for so long like i don't know sometimes i wonder like was it an out but again again Again, like, I generally do think it just started with the exploring creativity. Is it? Is it really hard after someone's gone?

The how, the why? So I think for me, like, one of the things, and I feel like in many ways I still haven't stopped to process a lot of it. So when Brendan passed away, like, my daughter, Mila was three weeks old. So she was three weeks old. Brendan had gone. The company had just been through chaos as well as like growing and I think it was so busy. Like Mila went to Toronto when she was four weeks old because we obviously went to to sort Brandon's funeral. And then like her first year of life she was in Toronto once a month like my mum would come.

And I feel like because life was so busy you kind of never stop to actually really think through what happened. And actually I'm grateful because I think for me that was probably the best way to deal with grief was actually just being busy. Because again, like it's, I can't diagnose what it was wrong, mental health. Like, I didn't know all the drugs he did. Like, no one knows that but him. Well, he probably didn't know exactly what was happening in his brain. So all you can do is really go on like your experience, what you've seen, what you felt. And it's just, I just find it so sad.

because I'm like well with him and my dad I'm like what a bloody waste of life like for two people that just had so much personality so much character had so much more to give and to both die at such a young age like my dad was 48 Brandon was 41 I'm like that's nothing like you're not even halfway through like life and but then I'm also like I think they both probably had more suffering than I could ever imagine or ever know in their brains And actually getting up and dealing with that on a daily basis, particularly in a world where it wasn't as open about mental health. And I actually think another thing,

and I say this with no science or any knowledge, but I actually think we also, I think some people really severely suffer. Like, I'm trying to say that I think we need a term where we all have mental health. Like we all have brains, we all have how we're feeling. But I think the people that are really, struggling. We need to be careful that in a way we don't dilute the term mental health because actually for people where it's so severe, like it needs a different type of acceptance

and like as a society as a world like we're still not ready to treat it. Like I remember my dad like we couldn't get him into a rehab because he didn't want to and we didn't have any control on that like Brendan got a few times it was like there but like he was straight out as soon as he could like and I don't know what the answer is because obviously you have we're also great that we're in a world where we have freedom and free will so I don't really know what the answers are yet but I feel like there's still a lot more to really understand the brain health because I think if it's not dealt with then when you maybe do reach this point and maybe an addiction or something comes into your life like it is just the end it's quite interesting how the two I mean obviously

apart from Sean, but the two biggest male figures in your life both came to addiction later. Yeah. And it went very quickly, naught to 60, and neither of them were prepared to stop. Or not prepared, but had the desire to stop, even though they could see the carnage unfolding around them. But you see, I also think they were both proud people. and I don't know how they would have felt. Like, I think it must be so hard to be in that space and, like, acting in a different way to who you had been.

And I don't know, like, coming out of it, and, like, especially for, like, Brandon, when everything was out on Instagram and then it was on YouTube, it was on TikTok. Like, I feel like, that's a lot to, like, then, I don't know, like come out of that cycle and see everything where maybe you won. I don't know. I don't know how that you deal with that. Yeah.

And it's, I mean, being a former addict myself, I'm always fascinated by what, how come I wanted to get clean and how come so many of my friends didn't. And what is the thing? I'm not sure about tough love anymore. Do you know Johann Hari? I'm going to send you his book. And I met him because he wrote a book about addiction and how to help addicts. And it triggered me in an enormous way because I was like, God, this is sort of not anything that I've known or learned through getting clean.

But I'll send it to you. Yeah. But I just, I feel so frustrated. frustrated for you and your loss of these two giants in your life and how annoying it is. So I'm going to turn it on its head, I think, a little bit. And I'm going to ask you what you've learned. What have you taken from losing these two men in your life? And how can you make something good out of that?

So I tell you what I've learned and then also what I haven't learned, what I would still like to learn. So I think what I've learned is, I think one thing is, I think one thing is around with my with my dad and Brandon like I'm so aware of the people suffering around

and I think actually one of the things since I've spoken a little bit about this topic was the amount of people that reached out and who are the family of someone suffering and I think they need support too and I think they often aren't because again there's still a little

bit of a stigma around when it is addiction people think it's a choice And whilst the first time may have been a choice, eventually it's not a choice and it is an addiction. But I think like, I guess I've learned that, I guess it's made me who I am in terms of like I'm fiercely independent. Like, I'm a really bit of a control freak because I think in areas when you can't control things, you're then like, I need to control what I can control. Yes. But what I haven't learned and which is something that I really want to learn more on, I hate this feeling.

that if I was in this situation again which, fingers crossed I never at. I don't know what you can do differently. Yes. I don't know at which point. Is it the signs? Is it the signals? Because no one actually has much advice.

And actually most of the advice is that there's so little you can do. Yes. For that person and everyone like, I remember like with Brandon, I kept saying like you just have to wait for them to reach rock bottom. But like sometimes that never actually comes.

Well, sometimes rock bottom. is death and then it's too late and I think sometimes people try and speed up by rock bottom by doing something awful or or cruel and sometimes that can feel like a really difficult thing too so it's very hard for families to understand but rock I think the problem is somebody has to want to get clean and what is going to be the thing that triggers them to want to do that and you don't know and you might never know and so you can't trigger them to get clean.

They are on their own and only they can do better. But I will, for anybody watching this or listening to it, post somewhere, all the Instagram accounts and email accounts for, all the anonymous fellowships that do help families. So Al-Anon is for relatives of alcoholics. There's a gambling one, there's a drug, one, Naranon. So we can definitely try and help support families because even if someone's died, if you were a relative or a friend of somebody that had a problem, you can go and talk about

your experiences with lots of other people who've gone through the same thing as you. And I think that is fantastically supportive. I think one of the problems that I feel like Brandon had was that he didn't have anyone. Yeah. And that's what you found out kind of after he died. Yeah. How few people he had around him. Yeah. You didn't really know him, but you knew him so well. Yeah, and be like he was someone there that had so much love in him.

And yeah, I think he lost his mum when he was young, which I think like would have had a big impact and just... And again, like I do think for Brandon, it really comes to like growing up and not feeling like you can be yourself or that you belong. I think it must be like the hardest thing to overcome. And if you're broken in that way, I don't know what it would take to repair. But holding that kind of weight or that kind of secret, like you said, would be devastating.

And again, like I think it's something where, like for me, like family is just so important. Yes. And I think for someone to not really have that feeling of family, it must just be like incredibly hard in life. I mean, you have loved. And, you know, this podcast is called Begin Again. And you've done that again and again and again, you know, left, well, been fired and sort of thought, right, I'm going to be this person. I'm going to start a family. Then gone back, started again on that, then learned how to be a parent and working so hard, which is another Begin Again.

And now, where are you at? Like, are you, you're still involved with Desien. but to what level and what's next? Yeah. So at the end of last year I stepped down as CEO and that was something where I just, I didn't want to work as hard as I had been. And, you know, I feel lucky and privileged that, you know,

through everything we've built and, you know, when it's been like 12 years, you're like, actually, it is time for me to step back a little bit more. And also, like, I think I'm quick to recognize when I'm the right person for the role and when I'm not the right person for the role. and you know Decium has grown to be the most phenomenal company but I was very lucky that you know I went to a se lauder I asked for help we brought in an incredible general manager yesper who actually is 10 times better at me

running the business because you know when you get bigger like your supply chain like there is there are so many different things and and the reality is and one thing that I still wish I could change more but like those big jobs like there's a big commitment and there's a big responsibility there's so much travel and it's hard to do that if you also want to be a present mom which is kind of what I also wanted to be so it's like actually it's just time for a change and again like I was grateful for the support from Stefan who's the new CEO of Svalorda companies who was just like amazing and so supported but I was like I want to kind of give up the responsibility and a lot of the work but like I'm not ready yet to give up the people because when I say we're like and again I'm

I don't like it when all companies say family, but there are so many of us because, again, you think what we went through, like, resilience, like a team that goes through trauma, like you bond like no other. And like it is like another child. So, you know, we, I'm in a role now where, like, I'm still involved as co-founder where, you know,

I'll be involved in, like, brand direction, advice, like doing the people stuff, doing some kind of PR telling our story. But it means I don't have to do the day to day now. Like, I don't have to, like, do the calls. on forecast supply chain and all of these other things that come with that role, which for me is like this perfect balance now of like, like, I want to be at the pickup every day.

Like, you know, I want to do all of those things with my kids and kind of be there. And then I also want to like start looking at some new projects because I think for me, like it is this balance of I like being hyper-focused mum for half the week. But then I also like to have like other interesting things, meet interesting people, do stuff. So for me, it's kind of looking at what that looks like. in the next few months. So might I be interviewing you again in a few years about your next absolutely mega business? That would be quite good, isn't it?

I would be cool. Oh my God, how exciting. I feel like I'm always like, oh gosh, we could do this, we could do this, we could do this, we could do this. But again, like life's different and, you know, you also want different things. And I, you know, I am so happy that I kind of did what I did in my 20s. But I also read a thing the other day about someone saying that they never see a relaxed woman. And it really got to me because I was like, actually, women are all, like, because we're always so busy, like, we're being a mum, like we're doing

all of these things, but then they see relaxed men. So I was also, like, I want to be a relaxed woman too. So I actually like planning these times in and actually making sure that you just take time to actually do other things you enjoy. I heard you say that. And you were talking about, when you're saying about a relaxed man, like a guy will go and play golf or have a hobby or something, I don't have a hobby. I've talked about this before. And you don't really have a hobby. Your hobby was work. Yeah. Or being with the kids. Yeah. And then my kids have grown up now my hobbies just work and I've I've started playing the piano again I've started singing I'm trying to do other things for me yeah because I didn't do it for 23 years

but again like I think that's one of the great things about life that like like when I was like looking at all your fitness stuff and I'm like and by the way I actually remember probably being about eight years old and like doing the divina with my mom on on the TV but you know like I'm like gosh like I want your figure like I want to do that but you know and I'm like I'm like I'm like like, gosh, once the kids are at school, like, you have time. You have to pick. And at the moment for me, like, any free time I have, like, if the kids aren't at school, like, I want to be with them, like, when the kids are at school, like, that's the time.

And then I'll, like, do work and stuff and, like, pick other things. But again, like, you don't have to be everything in one period. Like, if you have kids or you have a dependent parent or someone, like, that takes so much time from you, though, like, it is okay to not do it all because you're going to have another chapter where you are going to be, and you're like, me and Sean talk about holidays at the moment, like, hey, like, where will the kids be? Because there's no point it's going for, like, long lunches

wanting to read a book, like, we have two young children, like, that isn't our holiday at the moment. But in another 20 years time, we will be, like, probably bored on the beach reading books. So one thing is, like, my brain doesn't switch off. And, like, that's the thing that I've learned about, like, my husband's always like, you just need to go and relax. But I'm like, if I have a massage, I'm like, okay,

when's this done? Because I've got, like, things to do. The one thing that I've started, learning in the last few years, which I really love is skiing. Because I didn't ski growing up. I didn't grow up in a ski family. But I really want my kids to. So anyway, I started having lessons.

But I love it because actually like, do you ski at all? I skied a little bit when I was little with my mum, but it was kind of mad. Yeah. And I have done it a couple of times as I got older, but my partner loved skiing. I've got to be honest, I am terrified of injury. and I don't bounce anymore. I mean, you're at an age where you still bounce. Do you love it?

I love it because like when, and like, I say I love it. Like I'm so like mainly on green slopes and stuff, which is just great, but that's nice. I'm like, I can't check my phone. Like all I'm thinking is about like parallel or like how I'm getting down and like the fresh air being out. Like, you know, Milo, our six-year-olds like skiing with us now. So I feel like, you know, when you start to find something which actually like is a way to relax for me. Yes. But it's fine in those things because, like, yeah, I feel like my brain is active and, like, you know, not anywhere near to the level of Brandon, but I don't switch off.

Like, I think about things all the time. And, you know, I'm lucky my husband's an entrepreneur too. He's got his own business. It's quite nice. So you're in the same. It's great. But it's also a nightmare because, like, we'll both be together and be like, oh, like, we could do this. We could do this.

Like, he's bought the village pubs and then he's, and I'm like, oh, gosh, we do not need any more projects. But, like, you kind of can't stop yourself. And then again, like, I go back to this, like, oh, like, I want my kids to see you relax. relaxed woman but then I'm like it's okay not to be relaxed as long as you're having fun and enjoying what you do yeah enjoy life what you do and I think for me the only thing I've ever craved in life is freedom like freedom just to like do what I want to do like on my terms buy what I want go where I want and and for me that's like everything to life was building up to and again part of this chapter of like giving up the CEO responsibility but doing this is again just like a bit more freedom now where

you know like being a CEO for a big company like it's a lot of weight on your shoulders like and I still feel responsible still in my role but it's it's slightly different um so yeah I feel very happy about the next chapter one last thing I want to ask you is that I do feel like you have boss being um a mum and that you are balanced and you have a good outlook on it have you got any advice or help. I mean, advice I would say for companies that are starting that are trying to provide a friendly, welcoming, inclusive place for parents to work. Because I think when you become a parent, everything changes.

I loved working. I had a baby. I looked at this baby and I went, oh my God, where's my ambition gone? Yeah. And then as they've got older, I've really started to love working again because they don't want to be with me or need to be with me all the time. how can companies support parents and how can you manage you wanting to work and be a parent how what are the best things to do so actually like the one thing I'm so grateful for so when I had

mila so we had Stephen Kaplan was our COO yeah an incredible incredible human like just so kind hearted in his 60s I remember like obviously you know meel I was three weeks old and he just said to me, like my kids have left home, like, I have nothing to do but work. I will cover for you. Like, I will do the extra spreadsheets. Like, I will, anything I can take off your plate, I will do, like, and enjoy it. And for me, I was like, wow, what a sense of community. And I wish it could work more because, like, you know, ultimately, like, those years, particularly when your child's, like, under five, but, you know, rarely through school, like, it is different. But, like, when I was in my 20s, like, I was happy to do everything. And I feel like the more that, you know, we can

support each other as humans and it's not competition, it's not trying to take someone's role. It's like, actually, in my life right now, I can give 110%. In my life right now, I can give 70%. But the way we could actually like cover for each other to actually just allow people to have that time, like I think is really important and something really nice. The other thing that I... I just quickly want to say something now because I'd just quickly want to say something there because I'm just thinking about the people that would go, well, I don't want to have kids, so why should I cover for someone that's having kids? And so what I sometimes think with things like that, look, if you don't want to cover for somebody because you don't want to have kids,

then don't do it. You're fine. But for somebody that does understand or would like to cover, but I guess it's a, it's fostering a type of workplace where this is the norm. Yeah. And again, it's kind of like accepting you can be either but just making sure there's enough of each. So like if you just want to be your like always 100%, like you don't worry about anyone else. But like if you can be someone who pays it forward so that maybe then at that time there's someone else paying it forward or, you know. But again like maybe then you're going to have a dependent parent. Like there's different stages in your life. It might not even be children where like you can't give your rule.

And if you've got that support network and that community, which I think of like, like probably easier when everyone was in the office. Like it's harder like the more kind of remote work there is. What do you think about remote work? So I'm like torn on it because like as a mother is it's much easier like you can drop them off like be on Zoom and do it. I worry about females because I read a study and it was saying around like there's like proximity bias that ultimately the more you're face to face with someone like the more chances you are off promotion and also like creativity, conversations like it's never quite the same on Zoom. And when you give someone like the full choice about remote working,

typically we're finding that particularly mums are choosing to work from home. Men are choosing to go into the office like four days a week, five days a week. And what you had to be really careful of is that we're not getting offices filled with men whilst the women are at home because actually women have like gender equality has come on so much. but that's a real risk particularly for months. So I think you have to find a way where like, I mean, I think the whole working week's ridiculous, by the way, Monday to Friday, 9 till 5.

Like, this was from the Henry Ford area where you used to have like the traditional female at home that did all the jobs, just one in the household went to work. Like, you can't have a household of two people both working full time. And then expecting to like raise a child, like look after the house. Like, it just doesn't work. Like, unless you can outsource all the help you need. So I think in general it needs looking at

But I think with remote working You should try and So I actually heard from a lot of women They like it when they're forced into the office Like even if it's just two days a week Because actually We all have this guilt of like being a mum Like there's so much that I need to do.

Like if I'm at home like I could do a wash I could kind of do this other Whereas they like getting into the office But not feeling guilty like they could have done differently And equally with men Trying to force them to have a couple of days at home to so that we're not getting back to a boys club which i think is like a danger of the workplace yeah and hadn't thought about it like that that's really interesting yeah you've just

literally expanded that so that i've totally seen what's happening yeah we are going back to home to be a mum yeah and again it is balancing because gosh like the if you are a working mom like the flexibility is so useful. But equally, like, the men aren't choosing that. The men are still choosing to go in. And, like, you know, I'm talking, like, stereotypically. And it's also interesting because I often have this conversation with my husband and, like, you know, all of our different friends.

And they're all great men and I'm not meaning to call anyone out. Because there's also choice, like, I love being, like, the maternal mom. Like, I love me. Like, when my husband's like, oh, shall I pick the kids up to it? I'm like, no, I want to. So, like, I fight for it a bit. But I also think it's interesting. interesting for like any mentor to remember that in workplaces like gender equality well in my

experience anyway and I know we're lucky at DESE but like it's it's pretty much gone I think in a lot of modern companies so like we've done so much progress and like so I talk to my husband and obviously like all these peer group of men and I truly like they don't see any difference between females and males on hiring which is incredible yeah I know from speaking to my friends like you know most of my friends are still carrying the majority of the mental load and kind of that responsibility. Women. Women. And then again, it's interesting because I'm like, gosh, like these same husbands who are in the workplace who I know are such advocates for like gender equality, need to remember at home that actually like if you're promoting there, then you're also to be aware of like this mental workload and actually how much maybe is still falling on the women again.

Gender equality in the home. Yeah. Because I think people think about it just in the world. workplace around like you know they interview the hire but you also need to make sure at home like it's equal if again if you choose that because I think if you're both working yeah because I also think you know people can like like no one should look down on anyone like I also think someone who's like I'm just going to be a stay at home mom I'm like kudos to you or stay at home dad like it's such a short period like if you can afford it like wow go you if you want to work go you just like it's all

about making the choice for you and again like we're very lucky and and like I was saying, like we have the greatest support network. And, you know, we, so I'm from Sheffield. I went to university in Nottingham and met my husband there. And like some people are like, oh gosh, like, you know, you live in Nottingham as in, there's obviously so many like incredible places in the world. And from a work perspective, we definitely both work more out of Nottingham. But I'm like the village we have there.

We actually live in a village, which I love. But it takes a village, right? So raise kids. My husband's parents, like my mum, like their cousins, just like everyone around. This has been so brilliant, Meckle. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed talking to you. You know, one of the weirdest, most inspiring things that you've just said to me,

that it's not about being a grade A student or being perfect or being amazing. It's about who you are, what you learn. And the other thing I love that you said was about being kind. Yeah. I've almost begun to hate that phrase, be kind. because people have started using it like an abusive term, a bullying. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. But actually, just being courteous to each other and looking out for each other, look how brilliantly you've made that work in your life. Yeah. I think kind is like, you know, it's not about being a pushover. Like, I will stand my ground until at the end of time, but I'll always do it with respect. And I think it is just that balance of, like, for me,

the most important thing in being a human. It's just like who you are, like your values, like your inner good. And actually like, if you're a good person and like, you know, the you, and I think that's one thing in life now, I feel like I get coached every single day because you open TikTok and like it's like a therapist to you and you get so much advice. But like, you know, I always just think about that thing around like in a hundred years from now. No one will remember you.

Like everything will be gone. So actually all that matters when you're like in your last days is that you've been. like you've been a good person like who's around your bed like do you have love in your life like do you attract those things and and sorry I say that but then I also believe in like freedom comes from decisions you make in life and again it's not to say like everyone needs to be an entrepreneur because in many ways entrepreneurship doesn't give you freedom because you never switch off like you're constantly thinking but it's just deciding what freedom means to you and just get going like like I have some friends who is like always they have ideas and it never becomes one.

Yeah. Just like you have nothing to lose in this world. Just try. Like just get out there and do it. I've stopped hugging Nicola Kilner now. I literally couldn't stop hugging her because she was so inspiring. There were so many things that she's been through that I thought, God, that actually would just finish someone off.

but she's learnt from all her life experiences and carried them through and gone on to just be more and more and more successful because of it. I think the thing that I loved about her the most, the message that really surprised me, I think, is how kind she is and how she likes to foster a loving environment in the office. And that doesn't mean at the expense of being a tough businesswoman. that means at the expense of people. She believes in looking after her employees,

but also her business colleagues. Doing business with someone should be a pleasure, not a punishment. God, and there were so many takeaways from this interview. I hope you enjoyed it. If you like, I'd love you to comment and let me know what you liked about it, and I'll try and bring you more content like that. Thank you.