Begin Again with Davina McCall - Davina McCall: The Brain Surgery Experience That Changed My Life. | With Steven Bartlett.

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

In this exclusive and deeply personal episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall steps into the guest seat as Steven Bartlett takes over hosting duties for a powerful role reversal like never before. For the first time, Davina opens up about the life-changing moment she discovered a 1-in-3-million brain cyst, the fear of undergoing surgery and the difficult decision to keep her diagnosis private until the day of her surgery. She shares the raw reality of waking up from major brain surgery, the emotional letters she wrote to her children, and the long road to reclaiming her sense of self. Steven Bartlett, entrepreneur, bestselling author, and host of The Diary of a CEO, guides this emotional conversation with care, as Davina reflects on the anger, uncertainty, and gratitude that shaped her recovery. This is a story of resilience, vulnerability, and the power to begin again—even when life takes an unexpected turn. Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro (01:22) A Message from Davina (04:54) How Does It Feel to Be Back? (06:40) Telling People About the Diagnosis (10:26) Finding Out About the Tumor (15:31) The Official Diagnosis & What It Means (17:11) Deciding to Have the Operation (24:35) It Can Happen to Anyone, No Matter How Healthy (27:31) Telling Friends (31:47) The Day of Diagnosis (35:33) Confronting Death (39:24) The Children & Motherhood (43:56) Adobe Ad (45:05) Rebuilding Her Relationship with Her Stepmum (58:26) Davina’s Relationship with Michael (01:01:22) Fear After the Operation (01:10:46) Public Reaction (01:13:14) Friends & Family (01:15:19) Gratitude (01:20:28) Coming Back to Work (01:27:18) Beginning Again (01:36:47) How Are You Feeling? Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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In my head, I was literally the healthiest person in the world. I felt like this thing had taken control of me. And I was so angry. I was like, how dare you control my daily life like this? You have no idea that benign brain tumors can still kill you. It's just you don't know when it's going to happen. I talked to Michael about my wishes, I wrote letters of wishes to all the children. Personal letters to them.

Yeah. Don't feel sad. I have had an amazing life. I really went to sleep and thought everything will be okay. Whatever happens. You wake up, post up, what happens there? The cyst was sitting on a passage that short-term memories passed through. I mean, I don't really remember where I was.

He was like, is this it? Are you ever going to get better? Davina, what were you scared of? My old life just felt so alien. I was like I'm still in here. And how are you feeling? In your core. Well, I feel like life's...

I feel like life's never going to be the same again, but in rather a good way. Hi, so I thought I'd film a little video to put out at the beginning of this pod because I am quite emotional in this pod. It was filmed about eight weeks post-op. And I really wanted to, in a way, do this interview with Stephen because I was quite selfish, really. I wanted to commemorate where I was at at that time in some way for me to have a memory of quite possibly the biggest experience of my life.

This was a harrowing experience to go through, but the end result carried great learning for me. And I wanted to kind of punctuate my recovery in some way by talking about it. At some point, someone was going to make me talk about it. I was going to have to talk about it in a news interview or a print interview. and I really wanted to talk about it in a safe space. I love Stephen, and I know Stephen loves me, and I feel very safe with him. And I knew that I would in some way be able to put my story across

and it wouldn't get messed about with or cut or edited in a certain way to look a certain way. I just wanted the truth out there, and this is the truth of how I felt eight weeks post-a-months. stop. It's very real. It's very raw. I am feeling so good now. I am like maybe two or three weeks further forwards. After the interview, I called my counsellor and I put in an appointment with her and the combination that week of the podcast and an hour with her really made a massive difference to me. I was able to process quite a lot of stuff.

had been a bit stuck. And Michael said to me the weekend after that week, he was like, oh, you're back. It was like it was kind of the piece of the jigsaw that I was missing. So it was a bit like therapy. Anyway, so you get to watch my therapy session. I hope you get something from it. Listen, if you're going through something in your brain, a cyst or a tumour,

I'm thinking of you. it's a lot and I think interestingly only people that have gone through it really get it and I get it I'm sending you all huge love I hope you get something from this to be honest I don't I mean I don't mean this in a rude way but I don't care if you don't because I really did but I hope you do and I just want to say thanks so much to Stephen and to flight studios for letting me do this.

It really, really helped me. Okay, thanks. Davina. Hi. Are you ready? Yes. This is so weird. Welcome back.

Thank you. How are you feeling? My answer is only. This is really a very strange. Well, firstly, I can't believe what everybody looks at when I talk to them. That's so funny. But it's really interesting. Yeah, it's...

I've been quite nervous. I think what I don't want to do is cry the whole time. But it's right here. But I also don't want to not cry because I... When I see people crying, it's a bit like when I see people out running. If I'm in my car and I see people out running, I will wind down my window. And I go, I don't even know these people. I go, yay, well done you.

Like, well done. And they're like, oh my God. Like, they think I'm mad. But I always think, you've got out there. You're running. Crying. We spent so much time going, don't cry. Don't cry.

Or your crying's making me uncomfortable. I'm going to hug you so you stop crying. Actually, if you are going to cry, this is the greatest gift you can give yourself. Because if you keep it in, hey, listen, I may have learned this on your podcast that your body keeps the score, right? Like, don't keep the tears in. Stop pushing them down. If you're going to cry, like, really do it. But I don't want, at the same time, although I have been.

letting myself cry a lot whenever I want to. I don't want to cry the whole way, our way through, do you know what I mean? Is there an element of having to keep yourself strong for other people through this process? Because I know the phone call you had with me when you have to deliver news to me that you know is going to hurt me. And you must have had to do that over and over and over and over and over again. And there's almost a certain resilience that I think you have to kind of. maintain, or at least I got a sense you were maintaining, even though you didn't have answers to

some really big questions around your prognosis and all those things. Is there an element of yeah. I mean, it was interesting with you because I feel, I don't know why, but I feel weirdly quite maternal towards you. I really love you, like, but in a very protective way, not like a business way or I mean obviously I admire I admire your achievements but I'm proud of you kind of in a maternal way if that makes sense and I hope your mum doesn't mind me saying that but that's how I feel about you and a bit like I was worried how my kids would feel I was a bit worried about how you would feel in that same kind of way and that's such a weird thing to say. I know that's a bit funny. So telling my kids, me and Michael, were very practical about it. And my oldest is in the medical field. She's a dietitian. She quite wanted to be a GP. She thought about being a surgeon. So she was quite interested in the facts. She wanted facts. My middle one, who's in Australia, was understandably upset.

really upset. My sister's out there, thank goodness. But it's very hard when you aren't near enough to go around and get a hug or I really felt for her. And then Chester, interestingly, he's only just realized sort of post-op how big the op was. And I think that's probably on me, but actually I'm quite glad that he didn't have the fear beforehand. But my friends, I mean, my mind, my. Michael and I were quite weird about it because I just did not want the drama, right? I felt like the drama would make it a hundred times worse for me. I don't want people, I don't want limp necks. Oh my God. I don't want pity. I don't want because a lot of people have said to me since when you told me I thought you could die.

And I thought, I don't want people looking at me like I could die. I'm dealing with that myself. Like, I just want positivity. It's all going to be fine. You're very robust that I just need that. And you have to choose. Somebody said to me something and they said, choose people who are coolers, not heaters.

Oh my gosh. Amen. You know what I mean? So they're not going to fan the flames. Yeah. They're going to calm it. down and I was very careful who I spoke to. Okay, I've got a favour to ask you.

I was just wondering if you could just give us a follow. It costs absolutely nothing. It's completely free and it really helps us to continue to bring you lots more episodes of Begin Again. I'm so pleased you're enjoying it. Thanks. You need to take me to the beginning. Yeah. So how did you find yourself in a position where you were even having a brain

scan to be done. What's the... Like what? How did this begin? Um, it was the maddest. Maddest. Are you comfortable in my chair? I'm so comfortable. It's actually better than... I've not got shoes on, I'm quite impressed. I never podcasting shoes. I love that. Well, I don't see because you're under a desk.

What's at your house? Why would I... Yeah, you're at my house. Like, sit back, relax. Yeah, so... The very, very beginning is I did a documentary on the pill. and for it I went to a place called One Wellbeck which is a building in Wellbeck Streetnet The whole building is like a medical centre And I went to this place to go and get a coil fitted

On television And I went to Professor Dame Leslie Regan Works from One Wellbeck And she's done lots of work in the menopause fear and I knew her and she said she'd fit it and what women didn't know is that nowadays you're allowed to ask for pain relief when you have your coil fitted which is revolutionised coil fittings they just don't hurt anymore so I wanted to show one with me camera on my face and so it would because actually online is one of the most popular forms of

contraceptive but lots of lots of women are very frightened of it So I thought I'm going to do this thing. Got talking to Dame Leslie. She showed me around, there was a woman's health floor. And I was like, wow, this is so impressive. Like, wow, this is incredible. And I met this girl who worked there. And she was called Rupal.

And she said, we'd like you to do a menopause talk with Dame Leslie here for the people that work here and all the staff and maybe some other people. and I said, oh yeah, of course I will. I'd love to. And she was really tenacious, this girl. Do you like tenacious people? Yes, context dependent. I mean, you don't want a salesman or a... Yeah, no, exactly.

But when somebody, it's quite hard to be tenacious and not really annoying. Yeah. And she was that. She was tenacious, but like, she'd always get me excited about the things she wanted me to do. And she was saying, we'd like to give you a health check.

Stephen, in my head, I was literally the healthiest person in the world. Like, I'm... I covered for Amanda Holden on Heart Radio, and I used to run to Heart Radio, like, every morning. Like, I was fit. You know, I used to pick up a lady from the bus stop, and she got into the car, and she was like, you're that fitness lady.

That's what I was known for, like being fit and healthy. I, you know, I did my workout DVDs for years. I've got a fitness platform. I've got a healthy BMI. My blood pressure is low. I've always had slightly high cholesterol. But they went, your good cholesterol's high as well. You've got nothing to worry about.

I used to have a blood test every year. Good cholesterol's high. Don't worry about it. So I didn't need to worry about any of that. And I had this head-to-to-scan, and it was under duress. Rupil was like, Get this scan, head to toe, you'll be absolutely, you know, like head to toe, you've got skin, we want to look at your skin, moles, heart, liver, kidneys, dula, da, da, brain.

I was like, okay, rough, I'll ace it. And they came back and they went, okay, we've got your results, we'd like to talk to you. And they said, you've got a benign cyst in your brain. And weirdly, Stephen, I went, oh, okay, but I heard the word benign. I just thought, oh, benign is fine. It's not cancer. That's nothing to worry about, right? Benign.

How long have I had it? Oh, possibly since you were born. Oh, doubly fine. Like, I've had it since I was born. It's not bothering me. I'm asymptomatic. I thought I was asymptomatic. I'll talk you about that later,

but I thought I had no symptoms. So they had to kind of hassle me to get it kind of looked at a little bit further We think you should go and talk to somebody about your brain and possibly get that looked at. So I went to see a neurosurgeon and he said, I'd like to send you to somebody for a kind of chat about possibly getting this operated on. And I was like, why am I getting it operated on? And he showed me the picture of my brain. And he explained that it's called a colloid cyst.

And a colloid cyst is a three in a million thing. So three people in a million would get a colloid cyst. And it is interestingly always in the same place. So it's of the third ventricle. And the third ventricle is right in the middle of your brain. And it is a finite space. So once it's filled the space, it can't grow anymore. Or it will start causing damage.

hydrocephalus is what happens, which is water on the brain. And it can also cause very, very rarely, but it can also cause sudden death. So if it was to grow and you'd get hydrocephalus, you can just suddenly die. So it was one of those things where you could sort of not wake up in the morning or have a snooze somewhere and die in your sleep or something like that. I was like, oh, what? so can it grow anymore? And have you ever had something really bad wrong with you

where what happens is the specialist, they can't kind of tell you what to do? No, no, but just you describing it would make me, I feel so frustrated, like tell me where it's come from and what to do about it and what's going to happen, like, yeah. You and me are so similar. Yeah. Because I was like, tell me what to do.

Well, I mean, you could leave it and see what happens. It might grow. It might not grow. You've had it since you were born. It is in a place where it can't really get any bigger or it will start causing damage, but it might never grow again. But you might also have sudden death. But you might also suddenly die.

Like, it's such a mad. So I left that meeting and I didn't. So I thought, I've got to get a second opinion. because I need somebody to tell me what to do. Do you know who I spoke to? So mad. Do you remember a TV show I did called The Jump? Yes.

So it was filmed out in Austria. And on it, Caprice had... She got concussion. Right. I mean, we sat there for a scan, and she had a brain tumour which she had no idea about. She didn't know she had it, and she needed to get it taken out. She went home immediately. And I remembered this, and I called her straight away.

and she was brilliant. You know, Americans. Yeah. They're just different, right? She's like, this does not belong in your head. You need to get this thing out, and you must not worry about it. I was back at work two weeks later. You are going to be absolutely fine.

You call me whenever you need. She said, do you need a brain surgeon? I was like, well, I'd love to get a second opinion. She said, I know the guy. I'll get you his number right now. So, hats off to her. She really, really, really, really helped me. So I found a second opinion and I actually took my doctor with me to that second meeting

because I didn't understand what was going on. And so I've got that slightly wrong actually because I saw the neurosurgeon first and he sent me to the scientist. I took the GP to that but she said he's not giving you a straight answer but reading between the lines. he's trying to tell you to get it done, but I wasn't sure. So then the one that Caprice sent me to, me and Michael talked to. Okay. So me and Michael met Kevin O'Neill. We met him online.

And who's Kevin O'Neill. So Kevin O'Neill was who Caprice had suggested to me. And he's a neuroscientist. He's a neurosurgeon. Okay. And this will have context later, but he was a plastic surgeon who changed and re-studied and went into neurosurgeon. surgery. How mega is that? I mean, you've got to be pretty smart. Yeah, talk about begin again. That's like

mega. Anyway, so he, I mean, I think all surgeons are next level. Yeah. I want it to be one. That's why I say smart because I just didn't have the qualifications to, yeah, there was a point in my life where I wanted to be a dentist, wasn't smart enough. I thought maybe I'd be a surgeon, wasn't smart enough. I've got to say, I think you are smart enough. Not that kind of smart, not book smart. that. No, please tell me about Kevin. Anyway, Kevin is he's mega. And I,

me and Michael sat down and we met him and he was just very, very forthright, straightforward. He, he suggested a different approach from the first approach that had been suggested to me. I've been suggested an endoscopic sort of approach through here, which was a slightly smaller approach,

but he said, I'd like to do a bigger approach through the front of your head in between the two halves of your brain, straight down to the middle, pop it, suck out the stuff inside and pull out the cyst. And he filled me with confidence. And when we put down the phone, I looked at Michael and I was like, that's the guy. And he went, that's the guy. Yeah.

He thought there would be too much of a risk to leave it because there's always a risk associated with any kind of invasive surgery. So he felt that it needed to come out. He didn't say that either. Okay. So what is interesting, I'm not sure that any surgeon that thinks that they're going to operate on you can tell you what to do if there are options, because it might never have grown. Okay. But if it did grow, it would be an emergency. So I would need to land the plane the minute it hit land over the Atlantic.

or I would have to go on holiday go to a doctor in India and have brain surgery that I didn't know or that it would be that kind of emergency and I just thought I don't want that and are you a control freak? No comment. I want my team here. I am. I have spent the last five years

trying to learn how to let go. I find it unbelievably hard I find meditating very hard I find switching my brain off unbelievably hard but sorry it's okay it's okay

I felt like this thing had taken control of me and I was so angry about that I couldn't I couldn't let it go.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I was like, how dare you control my daily life like this? And make me feel every day like I'm in danger. Like, it's a horrible feeling. Since this operation, what's been amazing for me is that I have, you've found enormous sympathy for people who have benign brain tumours because you think, I have had so many people say to me, well, at least it was benign.

And you think you have no idea that benign brain tumors can still kill you. It's just you don't know when it's going to happen. It's like it's like it's, it might happen, it might not happen, it could happen, it could happen in two years' time. It's, it's different to cancer. but it is also awful. A benign does not mean fine. Living with that uncertainty is pretty terrifying.

And even the thought that no action, no solution, no operation, and then for the next sort of 10, 20, 30 years, you're always going to have slight angst that you might get a headache someday and start to think, oh my God, is that that? And I know, I know enough. now to know that look, I am healthy. I look after myself. I exercise. I've got all of these things going for me. But stress is a killer. And I do, I want to de-stress my life. I do not want to live with the stress of thinking any minute. You know, I could be taken out by something and I don't know

if it's going to trigger or what's going to trigger. And I'm pretty sure stress would be bad. in spite of the fact that you lived an unbelievably healthy life and I mean there's memories I have of you calling me at 7 a.m. running down the street. I'm running. I've listened to that episode in your podcast. I'm running. And you're like, move out my way. And there's like you're literally running down the street at 7 a.m. or whatever. But is there an element of sort of assessment that goes on and you ask yourself like, why me? How did this happen to me? Definitely. Because there's a real sense of like injustice and fairness when you play by all the health rules and then you still find yourself in a doctor's office with a bad diagnosis that I've never experienced yet. But I've always, you know, when I hear about people passing away that like didn't smoke, didn't do something. And they pass away of like lung cancer. And then you hear of other people who maybe made less optimal health choices and they live to 100 years old. I don't know. I always sometimes pontificate.

if I got a bad health diagnosis now, I would do a probably unproductive analysis of the decisions that I made to try and find a reason. I honestly, seriously believe wholeheartedly that somewhere in my genetic makeup, this was in my stars from birth. It was in my brain at birth. So I can't.

You know, I know that I look after myself. And yes, it is bad luck, but I think it is just genetics. And that's a lottery, isn't it? So mad. So I get what I'm given. And I mean, I've got to say, like, even, I never once thought with this, oh, that's so unfair. It's quite interesting that. I just thought I'm robust.

I can get through it. I'm going to do this. You know, I was just like, I'm going to positive my way out of this. I remember the phone call. That's how it felt. You felt like you were on top of this. You had this in hand. There was an element of me wondering whether you were putting on a brave face.

It definitely was for you. But how could you not be? I wanted to reassure you I was going to be okay. I don't know why. I just... I mean, I'll tell you why, actually. I don't want to be the person that is like, oh, poor me, this terrible things happen to me.

I don't want to leave people weighed down by my diagnosis. Life is hard enough without them worrying about me worrying, about my diagnosis. Me and Michael told my friends. I had a little like birthday gath. And we told everybody just before, I called my brain tumour, Geoffrey. I'm really sorry to any Jeffries

that are watching or listening, but I needed to name it something and I didn't have any personal friends that were called Geoffrey, so it seemed like a good name to call him. And we had a fuck Jeffrey, happy birthday to me party. And Michael played the piano and sang some songs and sort of did speeches and we all kind of

talked about things that, you know, and I talked about the fact that I was a bit scared, but like I know I'm going to do it. And if it was going to happen to anybody, it was good. It happened to me because I am robust mentally and I can handle it. and it was fun. And everybody was like, this is the weirdest kind of gathering I've ever been to. This is so mad.

But it felt like an appropriate thing to do. I don't want the heaviness. I don't, that's who I am. I don't want sympathy, limp, necks, weight. I don't want to carry a burden of other people's worry about me. So even though I was a bit scared, person, the person that got all my fear and it was only on one night and then another night maybe when I was furious about Jeffrey taking control of my brain. I wasn't furious with Michael but I was

like, I feel so angry. Like he's like, let it out, just be angry. I was like, oh, like, you know, and you just want to scream. But what Michael does for me, he holds space. for me. He holds space for me to feel my feelings, even if they really freak him out or they frighten him. He is not codependent in any way. It's so nice. He's taught me so much around that, like me and him.

If he needs to feel something, I don't hug him. I don't like try and take it away from him. I go feel it. And he did the same for me around this. So if I was crying, he'd sit with me next to me, but he wouldn't touch me or hug me. He would go feed it and I would let it out. And then at the end, he'd give me an enormous hug. Because you know that thing, have you ever had that with Mel?

Like when you're, do you cry? Yeah. Yeah. So when you cry, somebody wants to hug you right, to take that away. And when they hug you, you kind of do try and pull yourself together. Yeah. I feel like that is the wrong thing to do. Interesting.

Interesting. Interesting. When you're crying, cry until you're finished. Hmm. And then be like, okay. And then get the hug. Because you do need to let it out and there is an interception that happens when you're touched or when you're held. You know, interesting.

That's why on long-lost family, that, do you know how I learned that? How? In COVID, on Long Lost family, we were still filming, but we had to be two meters away. And I used to constantly touch people. So if they were having, if I told them something that their son had been found, I might touch their hand because they'd be really crying. In COVID, I couldn't do that. And I had to, it was hard.

I had to watch them go through the pain. But then sometimes it would turn into joy and then they'd start laughing. And then they'd be crying. And I'd think, wow, I would have taken all of this journey you're going through away from you by touching you if I'd done that. You had to see their pain. That day when Michael's with you and no one else is there and he gets to see how you're truly feeling,

if I was Michael, what would I have seen that day? Probably someone you'd never seen before. Really? I mean, I am allergic to being a victim. So I don't want to feel sorry for myself because I know that there is always something I can do about it. And I didn't even see that I was a victim in this situation, but I was vulnerable.

And I don't think, I think illness really is one of the, or a terrible experience, but since I've been with Michael, I haven't been through a frightening when I've been the victim of a crime or something like that, so I haven't been through anything like that, thank God. But I guess vulnerable is how you'd see me. And it's quite weird seeing me vulnerable.

I'm not like... I have felt very, very raw and vulnerable since the operation. And it's not changed me forever, but I've learned things about myself that I would never have learned without this operation or without the cysts. It's been, I'm pretty sure in two years' time, I will see it as one of the greatest blessings of my life.

There's almost a thread in you that I think I've come to learn, which is you take on the responsibility of other people's emotions. Yeah. And much of what's, I guess made you so successful in the public eye is your ability to elevate people's emotions with your energy. And I don't know, I just. But is that a good thing? I don't know. And I, I know for myself that when I feel that responsibility in my day to day life as maybe an employer or someone else maybe, you know, at Christmas time with the family, it is draining on one end because you're not

just carrying your own weight. You're also carrying the weight of, as you said, the other people's, you know, emotions and their worries and trying to keep them having. Like the fact that you were calling me and you were trying to manage my emotions versus the alternative, I think, is it speaks to the person you are, but I just, it's a lot, you know. It's a lot, especially in those moments. I think what's really lovely about Michael is that I don't have to do that with him. Yeah. And he was like my safe space where I could just vomit vulnerability. to him and be vulnerable. And do you know what he said?

He said, when I met you, you seemed quite hard to look. Well, not what met you, because we'd known each other for, we've known each other for 25 years. But he said, when we got together, I said to you, you are very hard to look after. And I was quite upset by that, actually, because I thought, I might look like it on the outside. but I'm not hard to look after at all. I need the same things that everybody else does. But he said to me that day when I was really upset that, you know, I've been in training for this moment.

I've been learning how to step up for when you need me and I'm ready. I've got you. At what point did you and Michael talk about death quite quickly weirdly I mean I said look I've got to plan

for if it doesn't go according to plan when I'd spoken to the doctors they'd talked about things like stroke epilepsy these all being risks um nicking an artery or a blood vessel in the brain and having a bleed.

So there were a lot of things that could be a risk. And obviously because of my age, you know, I'm 57, that was another thing that mattered to me. I was thinking, you know, would you rather have brain surgery now or if it grew in eight years' time, would you want to have it in your mid to late 60s? Would it not be better to get it done now while you are fit and healthy in every other way?

So yes, we had that talk quite soon and I did go and address my will and make sure that was airtight. I talked to Michael about my wishes. letters of wishes to all the children, put those in my will. Your letters to them? Yeah. Personal letters to them.

Yeah. And I made sure that when I went to sleep before the operation, I could trust in Kevin and let go of the outcome. And I really got there, Stephen, Like I really, really went to sleep and thought everything will be okay, whatever happens. And it felt like I'd climbed a mountain, but it was a good mountain to climb, you know.

Like I really meant it. You're at peace? The other quite funny thing, my daughter, my eldest daughter, Holly, she's always, she's quite perceptive. And, um, because I'd been around her a bit and we'd had the summer together. And, um, I was saying I love you quite a lot. And I was also saying, I've had an amazing life. I mean, I was saying that all the time to all of, all of the kids.

I just want you to know I've had an amazing life. And it was because I wanted them to know that if anything bad ever happened to me, Because look, we could all get run over by bus tomorrow. Don't feel sad. I have had an amazing life, like a life that you would want somebody you love to have. I have had that life. It's had ups and downs. I mean, you know about my life, right?

It's been carnage. It's been amazing, but it's been mega. Like the carnage meant the amazing felt even better. that I've felt all the feels, I've felt real love, I've felt real despair, like it's been mega. How does your relationship with, I guess, I guess we'll start with motherhood and your children start to change. How does your thinking there change when you consider the possibility that you might not be there to watch them grow up? Yes. Because of all the conversations you've had, I think the ones that,

that sound like they were the most tricky, would have been those with your kids. Funnily enough, I remember my mum, I just remembered this second, my mum calling me when I was 10 and telling me she had a cyst in her breast. And I remember the just total devastation as a 10-year-old. Yeah.

Like the total, I just didn't understand. I thought I had lost my mom. Yeah. And at that age, it's just, I mean, it's like your world has ended. what was what's that moment like with the children with the kids emotionally are you trying to set them up prepare them in any way are you telling them the truth a version of the truth were you physically with your mom when she told you I found that on the phone I know I know

who are you with I remember I so funny remember exactly where I stood I picked up the phone and my my mom said she wanted to speak to me and she said that she had a they discovered a benign chew in her breast and that um and she spoke to me about it down the phone and then then she hung up the phone and i remember i probably with my siblings at home yeah um god that is quite intense isn't it it is intense the fact that i remember exactly what i was still almost what i was wearing in that moment at 10 years old 20 years ago um but your children yes they it sounds like they processed it quite pragmatically they did okay they did and i did and i think it was funny with Chester because he's the youngest.

He's 18. And he was, it was only when I came home. He was like, I didn't realize how serious it was. I said, well, I'm pleased, you know, because look, here I am and it all went well and it was fine. But in a way, there was part of me that was thinking if it hadn't been fine, he would have struggled the most. And in a way, that's what I wanted to do was to try.

Try and find a way that they would all find a way through it if I didn't make it. I mean, obviously, your mum, you know, I mean, the thing you really want to do is have your mum around when you have babies. Yeah. Get married. Yeah. Your babies take their first steps. You know, Christmases with grandchildren. I mean, I can't wait for grandkids.

those are the kinds of things that I would feel sad about but what I was trying to not do is think about things that I would miss if I didn't make it I was trying to think about how would they cope if I didn't make it, who would they have around them, who would support them, where would they live, da-da-da-da. I was trying really not to kind of think too much about what I would miss because it just made me feel too sad.

Were you worried about them? Weirdly, I'd thought about it so much that actually my final thought about it was that they're surrounded by love and family and Michael. But also, they're really great kids. Like I just thought, you guys, it will be devastating, but you will all be.

be okay. And I just had that feeling. They're good kids. They're smart. That was such a nice feeling. I don't mean smart as in clever. I mean, in life.

Robust. Yes. Like, they make me very proud. And, you know, it's interesting because I always wanted my mum to say that. That me, do you remember? That's why I became famous. Like, that was the whole reason. but it's so nice to be able to say that about my kitten

to tell them all the time. It's amazing. But through this has made me immensely proud of all of them. I've been thinking about the power of community lately, thanks to our favourite creative tool and sponsor Adobe Express. You might know it as the quick and easy create anything app from Adobe, but it's also a really buzzing creative. network. So the other day, I couldn't get our Begin Again logo to look how I wanted in a doc.

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Did you think about your mother through this process? I know she's passed away now, but... I didn't massively. I, to be honest, I think, if this had happened when she was alive, it would have been, I would have gone to her for a reaction and I wouldn't have got the reaction that I was hoping for. I mean, the person who I've had an amazing kind of connection with during this time has been my stepmom.

Gabby? So my dad's wife, Gabby. Yeah. And when I was growing up, I went to go and live with Gabby and my father when I was about 13. I lived with my grandmother. Then I moved in with Daddy and Gabby when I was 13 in Shepherdsbush, West London Girl. And I moved in and then Gabby got pregnant. And weirdly, how I read that was I felt a bit guilty to be invading in their new family.

It was such a, I don't know why. But I thought, oh, I've come up because they haven't been able to get pregnant. And then I've come up, she's got pregnant. And I'm in fact, anyway, she has this baby, Millie, my sister. I was 13 and it was like hard work for them as a couple. And I was going, beginning to go off the rails. I was smoking a bit of weed. At 14, I started taking Coke.

15 speed, 16 heroin. You know, like I was careering off the rails, obviously a bit of a nightmare for them, going out a lot. So I was really difficult. She was amazing with me, Gabby. She was my stepmom from when I was six years old. She was always great. She used to take me shopping at Topshop.

She used to, when I was a little girl, and she was solid, dependable, reliable, kind, pragmatic. You know, my mum was like a far, farry, whirring, dervish of sexual energy and there was Gabby, who was everything I wanted my mum to be.

But there was something about her that I either felt that I was always doing something wrong, stay in the house. She never made me feel like that. It was me. I was like, oh, I'm a wild child, and they've got this lovely baby, and I shouldn't really be here.

And it was a very interesting thing. And in the last two years, I have with Michael talked a lot about Gabby, and he's always said, what an amazing woman she is, and how brilliant for a 75-year-old, she kind of went off to learn Spanish on her own in Valencia, with a bunch of post-uny students. She lived in a flat with a bunch of post-uny students.

for a week and then she went to go and see Coldplay in Dublin. I mean, she's like knockout. And I have had these real massive revelations around Gabby and I've just thought, I've wanted a mother, I've wanted my mum to be a mum. I've been asking somebody really to be something that they're not. All her life, I was sort of going, I wanted my mum to turn into, you know,

somebody that was dependable, pragmatic, take care of you, cook food for you, you know, take you to top shop, da, da, da, my mum would never have done any of that. To give people context on your mother for people that don't know, can you fill in that picture of the behaviour, the, I guess, neglect, the betrayal? Yeah. So, you know, it's really interesting because you say neglect and betrayal and immediately I'm like, well, it wasn't that bad. Because when it's your mother and she's your flesh and blood, I weirdly always want to

defend her. But she took me to So basically My birth mother was French And she was given a lot of money When she was young And she never really worked for it She was given it by her dad

He made lots of money And he gave her a massive lump sum of money When she was 18 And she spunked it all on Eves Saint-Aron clothes And sports cars And met my dad at 22 She'd already had a baby

at 15. She was forced to marry the dad at 16. She had you at 15? No. My sister. And then at 21 or 20 she met my dad and had me at 21.

And she was just wild. She was immensely sexual. I remember I remember being quite young and they'd got divorced, I think. But I remember going to someone's house and watching her.

her snog, someone's husband, by her car. I remember, you know, she just had no boundaries. And my mum's, like, line when somebody would say to her, but you slept with him. She'd go, it's only bodies. Like, she was just sort of, and there was part of me that kind of always was like, well, at least you're honest. There was something so, she was, people were like, she was magnetic. Well, men would just flock to her. But really what I wanted was Angela Lansbury.

Do you know what I mean? Like I just wanted Cardi wearing sensible shoes. Do you know? Yeah, of course. You know what I mean? But actually what I had was somebody that was doing citizens' arrests on people at 8.30am in the bar around the corner. You know, it was too much.

But I love for. her with all of my heart and half of me, half of me, all my naughty bits, probably, well, Michael's already told me this, because once he said, I've already met your mum, and I said, what do you mean? And he put his hand on my chest, and he said, she's in here. And I was like, and he went, all my favorite bits about you are your mum. You know, all my naughty bits, all the bits where I'll wear like a short skirt

or I want to go out clubbing or all of those things. That's her. I've heard to thank for that. But all my good bits and my pragmatic bits and my sensible bits and my bits of being a good mother. I learnt from my grandmother

and I learnt from my stepmother and I never gave her credit for that. And Michael's also, I mean, Michael's like, sounds like my guru right now, but I'm slightly full of it because we've been through something massive together but Michael helped me

like put new pair of glasses on a look at Gabby my stepmom in a different way and I've literally fallen in love with her like in such a major way for the first time so she said to me this is a good example right she said to me what kind of pyjamas are you taking to hospital and I was like

what kind of pyjamas do you think and she went Oh my God, are they really sexy? And I would have read that five years ago as an insult. Oh, you think I'm too sexy. Like, you think, oh, it's stupid. I shouldn't be doing that. Now I was like, yes.

And we laughed and we laughed about it. What were the glasses you took off? I took off. You wish I'd never come to live with you. I agree. And I put on, I think you always want to be. me to live with you. They're much nicer glasses. Have you told her this? Oh my God, we've talked about it nonstop. It's unbelievable. It's so good.

She looked after me for two weeks. We walked arm in arm. I've never walked arm and arm with my mum ever. My stepmom, I mean. Like I've never, we walk arm and arm. We talk, we laugh. We've been so honest to each other. But you know, my mum and I have gone deep. We have had the since this operation, I have had the most amazing time with her ever. Was she aware that you had this perspective? We were both aware that we were slightly like two cogs that was slightly out of kilter. Yeah. And we just, when we were turning, we were just getting stuck sometimes.

An unresolved misunderstanding. Yes, yes. And we just went bleh. And I'd noticed she was reaching out to me a bit. Before this. Yes, because I think she's 75. And a bit like me now, she's looked death in the face and she's like, I want to heal everything. I don't want there to be any weird vibes or any bad feelings or anything.

And she said to me, I'm sorry, I asked you to kind of move out when you were 19. And it was so funny, she said that to me and I said, why? I said it was the single greatest thing you've ever done for me. I left home and I worked hard. You taught me everything. It was such a gift. I've only ever spoken about that. But she carried that as a bad thing that she'd done.

And I was like, whenever I talk to anybody about it, it is the greatest gift. Because my dad lost his job in the 80s. And they had to have to be. to move into a flat instead of a house. So they moved from a house to a flat. But in order to make money, they were getting in a lodger who was at business school. And then she would do bed and breakfast for them.

And that would bring in a bit of money while my dad was trying to find work. And she was like, there's no room. And I was like, I'm 19. I'm not a university. Like, I should go and find myself somewhere to live. So once we talked about that And I was like, no, it's the greatest gift you've ever given me. She was like, oh, I'm so...

Plus and said, have you been carrying that? And she went, yes. I was like, right, let's do this. Let's get it all out on the table. And we just vomited everything. There's a lot of lost time here. Oh, I mean, I'm 57. I am so annoyed about this.

anybody's watching or if you've got anybody in your family that you you please talk to them now do not waste any time because doing other people's thinking is none of your business like it is the worst thing you can do why don't we divina why didn't you why didn't i talk to gabby why didn't gabby call sooner or like i think that we both first that our feelings about how the other person was feeling were correct. And both of our feelings about each other were making it feel like it was correct. Well, it was correct. Like she thought that I was feeling funny about her and I was feeling funny about her

because I thought she was feeling funny about me. But actually we wanted to love each other. And she'd lost her husband, your father. Yes. 2022? Yes. Had that at all, do you think, changed her perspective and sort of realigned her priorities and you said that she looked to death in the face herself.

I think, I think the one thing I have always had for Gabby is enormous respect. I mean, my dad was a bon vivant. What's a bon vivant? Oh my God. I'm going to take you to Paris one day, Steve. Oh gosh. Okay. A bon vivant.

Bon vivant is someone who loves life, a good liver. Okay, okay. So my dad was really good fun. Love going out, socialising, only. My mum was what I would call a mid, you know, mid, not an extrovert, not an introvert. She was. Ambevert. Yeah, ambivert.

Is there such a thing? Yeah. Is there? Yeah, there is. Oh my God, I love that. Someone said on my podcast and I was okay. Oh my God, this is great. She was an ambivert.

That's such a good. So she was the perfect kind of in between. But that was a lot. You know, I do a, I do a ladies lunch for a charity that I've been working for since I was nine years old. I've been raising money for this charity since I was nine years old. And every year I do, I do a ladies' lunch. I've been doing this lady's lunch for this charity for 16 years. And it is raucous.

Ladies' lunch, everybody gets absolutely mullered, really good fun. And the only men who have been to the ladies' lunch are there's an auctioneer who goes, he's never safe either. There's a radio DJ who sponsor the event. My dad went until he became ill, until he got Alzheimer's and then he didn't go anymore. But every time my dad went to this event, he'd get absolutely trollied. And then all the women would take him to, I think it's called Tiger Tiger. Tiger in Portsmouth and they would all go out all night

Portsmouth's massive and then my mum would go home and wait for Dad to come home but like every year I'd go back to the event and they'd go, went out with your dad last year God, it's amazing. It makes me think that you had the mother you always wanted there the whole time.

She was there all the time, Stephen. I think about so many relationships of mine that probably are trapped on the other side of some trivial misunderstanding. I think a lot of us have that. And I've even, I've even, a few years ago, I thought about doing a TV program where I help people. The last time you said this on a podcast with me, it happens.

Yeah, so sorry. But it's about doing a TV program to help people get past a family block. Because they are so sad. And I think on our deathbeds, you know those nurses who are palliative nurses, and they see people on their deathbeds all the time, I wish I'd made up with, I wish I'd spoken to, I want to forgive, I want to say sorry. These are the things that on our deathbeds, I don't want to be that person. Hmm. One of the things that I learnt through watching the process you went through, but also being, experiencing it as a friend in the WhatsApp group where you had some of your friends in there, was how to show up as a man. And I'm talking about Michael here. When someone you love is going through something like that. Like I actually said this to Michael and I said, thank you actually for modelling that for me because I'm, I guess, fortunate enough to not have been.

been through that before, but the way you've shown up for Davina, this like really unconditional, managing all of us as friends in a network, the support, the doing everything, you know, all the, some of the, not so, you know, some of the stuff that most of us would never think they'd have to do for somebody. And just the, how solid he was as a man, you know, I thanked him for that. I remember sending him a message just to say, thank you for that, because it was really remarkable to see the like strength and a per like what i described is it's this perfect model of love and it's hard you don't always get to see love in in its essence until something tests it and that was a really testing moment and he just really really inspired me i was wondering how your

relationship with him is different now on the other side i tell you what's what's been interesting is that I think it has been the most testing time for him ever to see me, who is normally misses in control of everything. I mean, beforehand with the fear and everything, actually brought us really, really, really close together. But I think the first month for him in hospital was so painful and difficult and hard. And that that WhatsApp group

was his therapy, his saving grace. Like, I don't know what he would have done without it. But this is the amazing thing about him as a man. He is everything. He is strong. He's soft. He's funny. He's serious.

He's really. smart and super silly. He cares about you a lot. Yeah. Oh my God. I feel it every day. Because when you came out of the operation, there was a few days where... It's really hard.

Yeah. And that's when I could see in the videos, I think, doubts in his mind as to whether he kind of lost you. Yeah. Can you explain that to me? Yeah. What happens? You wake up, post up, what happens there?

Um, so I think, I mean, I don't really remember where I was, but I think I was in intensive care for two or three days in the end. Because my short-term memory, so what had happened was the scar goes from here to here to here. You can kind of see it a bit. It's growing back. Ah, yes. That goes from here, across here to here. So is that about 12 inches?

Yeah. And they peel it forward. So they peel your, you're sitting. your head forward. My skin to hear. Yeah. And then take a bit out here and go in through the two halves of your brain. And it's guided by like a GPS.

Did you see the picture of me with stickers on my head? Yeah. Those send signals to the camera taking Kevin down to where the cyst is. And it guides him to the cyst. And the cyst was sitting. This is, this blew my mind. The cyst was sitting. on a passage that short-term memories passed through.

So when Kevin said he got down there and it was waving at him, it was clear as day, like his worry was, is it going to be hard to find? But actually he said, I could see it so clearly. And he said the other worry was, what's it going to be full of? Because they have to pop the cyst, empty it, and then pull out the empty cyst because it's easier to get through.

If it was full of hard stuff, because sometimes it can calcify, that would have been a lot harder. But he popped it and it was full of, it wasn't very runny, but it was gloopy and they were able to get it all out. So that was the second thing that I had, that I was lucky with. And then the third, when he pulled it out, it came out relatively easily. But it was attached to this passage for short-term memories. And that got pulled up with the cyst until the cyst became. became detached. And then it went down, but it was misfigured. The short-time memory passage was misfigured. And the memories couldn't just go straight through. They were getting a lost.

And so when I woke up, I went, I cried a lot. I saw him. I was crying a lot. And I, and I remember telling him that when I went to sleep with the anethyst, I went to sleep saying my intention. that I set was love, love, love, love all the way. And he's got a video of me with the bandage on, crying, just going, and I was saying love, love, love, love all the way. And I could remember that. But then I went, we've just got to get back from America because I need to have an operation.

And he was like, what has happened here? And I'm not sure he fully understood at the beginning that that was the short-term memory. he thought she's gone, you know, she's gone mad. And then eventually he did kind of manage to talk to somebody who said, oh no, it was attached, so this passage, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you don't understand how important your short-time memory is for everything. I mean, you had a father that had dementia, right?

Did you have to confront that? Interesting, not then, because I didn't even know what, I mean, I didn't know who I was, where I was, what was happening. Michael would leave the room. I didn't think he'd been there. I mean, it was mad. I mean, that would be latest stages, I guess. In that moment, I actually felt this vicariously by watching Michael describing on video to me what he was going through.

It became really clear to me that actually we have a relationship with each other's memories. Yes. Do you know what I mean? It's just like my memories are attached to your memories. That's exactly it. And the minute one person in that relationship loses the memory, the relationship ends, basically. Well, the relationship is you knew it. There's almost a bit of grief that.

I mean, I think that's what he was going. through. I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't see it or feel it. But I think for him, I think for, I think for Michael that, that moment, those few days at the beginning. And even, I mean, I think after three or four days, was it three or four days, he's put out a message and he went, we've had a breakthrough. Yeah, it was kind of coming and going because there was moments where he was like, I think it's okay. And then he'd come back to the camera and it'd be, oh, I'm not sure. So what happened was, I think the surgeon started using the, the word should.

Oh, okay. And it should be back in a few days, but he got really nervous about this should because what if it never comes back? But actually, when Kevin talked to me, he was like, it's definitely all coming back. It's just got to shrink back down,

but it's not gone. But I'm not sure anybody had relayed that to Michael at that point. And he was like, is this it? are you ever going to get better? And, you know, now we know that each week it got better and better and better.

But at the time, first week, it was really, really hard. Not for me, but for Michael, and a very lonely. Because no one can really explain. I mean, it's so interesting that you realise that your personality is your short-term memory. It's like being with somebody completely different.

And even, I went home after, I think it was probably about eight days after the operation. I stayed in for one extra night just to feel a bit safer because I was still do lally. And so forgetful. And I went home eventually and I was with Gabby and Michael, I think, had to go out or go somewhere. And in the morning Gabby came in and she said,

do you want a cup of tea? and I said, no, I'm fine, thanks, I'm just going to keep resting for a bit. I was so tired. You have brain surgery. God, it's exhausting. And she was said, I'm going to go and have a shower. I'll come back down after the shower. You know, we can have a chat to start the day.

I was like, wait. And I've got this lovely, lovely cleaning lady called Fran, who came around and she knocked on the door and she was like, morning do you fancy cup of tea and I was like oh um no I'm all right I'm just gonna just try and sleep for a bit she said is your mum here and I went no and literally mom had left two minutes before and gone upstairs and she went oh that's weird because her car's outside and I went oh is she like that's how that's how crazy it is that you can't it's like it's like it's like A second.

It's terrifying. But then the next week, we were really laughing about that because I would have remembered that a week later. But I couldn't remember if I'd had breakfast. So at 10 o'clock, I'd think, or 11 o'clock, I'd think, I'm quite hungry. Did I have breakfast? You can't remember things like that. Basic care things.

I had to get really good at putting post-stits. Brush your teeth, you know, do this. I had to have order. I was actually quite good at it. I became quite methodical about when to take what, had this next to my bed, so every morning I would do that, then, you know. And then what was amazing,

and I did think a lot about people with Alzheimer's, is that I was going the opposite direction. I had experienced what it's like to feel completely lost and totally different and frightened and paranoid. It makes you paranoid. The other thing is that when you have no short-term memory, your perception of reading people's faces becomes so acute. So if you'd have walked into a room and started talking to me,

I'd be looking at your eyebrows, I'd be looking at, what are you trying to teach me or tell me? Are you happy? Are you angry? How do you feel like I'm trying to pick up that rather than remember what you're saying? Why? I don't know why, but it was telling me, oh, they're a bit upset, or am I annoying you?

Have I been annoying? Because I can't remember what I've done. I'm trying to read how you feel about me from your face and your actions. Is it exhausting? Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. But with every single week, it's got a little bit better and a little bit better. And I am so unbelievably grateful for that. Were you aware of the public noise?

Were you aware? Not at all. Really? And I mean, still not really now. What was weird? Because you kept it private pretty much up until the point when you had the operation. Yeah, the day before. Well, I think maybe even the morning of the operation, I put it out as I was about to walk down the corridor to go to get anithetized.

Because I thought I don't want the drama. but I haven't obviously I missed all the I missed television or I missed I didn't look at TV anything for a month I don't even I didn't read any of the WhatsApp groups

yeah you can't you can't remember anything I mean I could have I may have watched on television but I couldn't remember anything you could I mean you could have told me I'd seen myself I wouldn't know it it's so interesting in those moments

because when that story breaks and it broke nationally in a massive way, you kind of get to see what you mean to people. And the overwhelming sentiment from every corner of the internet and world was just people really like reminisce them on how much you've meant to them and the impact you've had on their lives and saying wonderfully beautiful things. It's a weird situation when the public is confronted with the idea of losing someone who's like a national treasure like yourself. and they go into this sort of reminiscent cycle of, you know,

when you first impacted their life, whether it was through you work now for menopause advocacy or a TV show or a piece of, other piece of media that you've created. And I wondered if you had seen it. No. I think you probably should because it's honestly, it's so, I always get goosebumps thinking about it.

It's just a credit to the way that you've lived your life. It really is a credit to, you know. Yeah, I mean, I've always said to myself, don't read the good, don't read the bad. So I've always thought Either the good might make you Feel too comfortable or safe And the bad

Might affect your performance later on So just don't read anything about yourself So I've just ignored it I tell you what I have enjoyed Is walking down the street Well I took the train today I took the tube That was quite mega

It was just like loads of people just going Yeah And I was like It's just funny. It's beautiful. It is nice. And you must have also seen even closer to home how much you mean to so many people. To so many people.

It's funny because I was put in a WhatsApp group with your friends and family, etc. And my first observation was how big that WhatsApp group is. I was like, Jesus Christ, she's got some friends. Like, but I thought this is a measure of a good life and whether you've like treated people well and lived right is in a moment like that, how many people deeply are invested in your well being and you coming out on the other side of this? Well, like people were every single day sending many, many messages to check in desperate to get an update. Do you know what I was thinking when I made the WhatsApp group is who do I, if something bad happened, who. who do I not want to hear it from a paper? So I was kind of thinking in a way

like I want them to hear good things. Who do I want to hear the news first before anybody else gets it? And that was my list of people. And it was, you know, people like you, who I work with, who I really care about. And then there were obviously my family members. And then it was quite nice putting that list together of people

because I thought, I have so many people I really care about in my life. You know? I mean, this is kind of my next question, which is about how this process has kind of crystallized what and who matters. Because sometimes we need to be confronted with, unfortunately, bad news to really understand what our true priorities were the whole time. And for someone like me who, you know, I'm 30 odd years old now, and fortunately I haven't been through any major health scares,

but I'm hoping that a health scare doesn't need to teach me something important about life. Stephen, would you, you're a grateful person though, right? Your upbringing's made you a grateful person. Would you say you're full of gratitude? Yes. And why? Well, do you know what that has come from?

A feeling that I am living life to the fullest in actually exceeded, like, what I ever thought my life might look like. And probably an underlying low level of imposter syndrome as to why I have been able to do this. Like how come? Yeah, how come, like, versus someone else. And just like this overarching sense of just constant privilege. So that's a grateful where my gratitude comes from. Just feel very, very deeply like fortunate people. I wonder, I'm always interested in the fortunate thing

because I always do believe that like we are responsible for our lives. Like it's you make it. But how do we, why, why are you the person that can, that can make it? I'm always, it's like the beginning of the universe. I always think gratitude is so, also not being a victim. So awful things can happen to you. You've had a tough life. We know lots of people that have had tough lives,

but they've used that, turned it around and become enormously good people or successful people. And how do you not become a victim? because in in AA, they say, poor me, poor me, like, oh, poor me. And then they say, pour me a drink. Like victimhood is like the worst place to be for, say, an alcoholic or an addict because it'll just take you straight back to using and drinking. And it's actually inertia.

if you're a victim, because you are at the beck and call of life, life is the thing that is affecting your chances of success, love, you know, enjoyment, all of those external things are the things that are stopping you from being able to be happy, when in fact you have the power to have all of those things, and all it is is putting on a new pair of glasses. There's victimhood and being a victim is clearly playing a role though. I was thinking about this a lot over Christmas and New Year's. I read a book called The Courage to be Disliked.

I think the first section of the book, it's five sections, and it's basically a young man asking a philosopher some of these questions about life and the young man is a victim. And the philosopher ends up telling him that what happened to us doesn't define us, what we're actually doing. And this is, there's like the Freudian psychology, which is determinism, where this happened to you so you became this. The other school of psychology by this guy called Older says that you use what happened

to you to serve a goal you have today. And it's a reframing because this explains how two people can go through the exact same thing and one of them can become productive and successful and someone else may never leave their bedroom. Yeah. And he explains these scenarios where we've used what's happened to us to serve a goal today. So I was reflecting on myself and some things I tell myself and this. sort of hero's journey that I say on podcasts, I was in this home and it was dilapidated and we

were black and that, like, for example, I say I'm an organised today and then when I trace it back, I tell the story of my mother like being basically a hoarder. But what I actually think I'm doing is I'm actually not a disorganized person. I'm using that as a way to serve the goal of communicating my origin story. And I just think, I think a lot about how that's reframing, right? Yeah. I love that. I mean, when I talk about glasses, I'm talking about reframing. How is it serving you being a victim?

That's what I'm getting at. Like, it's got to be, it's serving you in some level. And that's, I think, a conversation which makes people feel very uncomfortable. That your victimhood, the choice you're making. Well, I think often, victimhood means that people will feel sorry for you because you're stuck somewhere you'll never get out of. So people go, oh, I'm so sorry about that. But when you're not a victimhood, it means that means that, you're not a victimhood. you think I could do something about this.

Something. I could at least perceive it differently. Then you're not a victim anymore. Then you don't get the sympathy. And for some people, sympathy is some kind of attention or love or it's something, isn't it? Yeah. So I think it's a very negative. I would like to quickly, you talked about not wanting to leave your room just then.

And there is something I want to say about, I'd been at home I was still trying to get over my short-term memory loss and I had booked in to start work on the 15th of January and I was quite nervous about that and I you know I was getting a lot better as the weeks went by but still I was thinking there is no way I feel ready to go back to work

and this was like three weeks before I went back I was thinking oh my god I don't know how I'm going to do it you know it's kind of like just after Christmas coming up to New Year I was thinking God I don't I don't feel ready at all and I talked to Michael about it and he's always my sounding boy

I said I don't feel ready to go back at all and I'm spending I'm sleeping in bed still an hour in the morning I wake up and go back to bed for an hour feel re-energised then I have to go back to bed for an hour again in the mid-afternoon and then go back to bed again at 10.

I mean, I was just sleeping so much. I thought, am I going to work needing to do that? How's that going to work? And he said, DeVina, I really feel like the last kind of 10% is going to come back when you go back to work. You need this. And do you know how I felt?

I was like that. I didn't say it out loud. because I think my subconscious knew Michael was right. But my fear, I had become mildly like I had been institutionalised by my home. Yeah. I didn't know how to leave my home anymore. I used to go for two walks a day just around the local area and then go back. I can't drive for ages.

so I couldn't get in a car I couldn't go anywhere the only place I was at home or near home felt really safe and he would say this and he'd go I think it'll really help you when you go back and I'd go you don't understand

and then like towards the end I was going look could you stop just saying that I know you're trying to get me to go back and I never ever speak like that to Michael ever I thought who am I I'd have to go I'm really really sorry I'm really frightened I feel like you don't really understand.

I'm so scared of going back. I went back last week for the first day. I wouldn't want my family to see me in my thought. I'm not going to be able to remember anything. I was working on Long Loss family and I had to remember someone's whole life history. And I thought, my God, I can't remember if my mum's here and she's in the shower.

How am I going to do this? They got me the script five days early. And I went over it again and again. And I made it long time. memory because I did it every day. And Michael said, you've got this. And still, I felt like, angry. I think I'm crying because I feel so bad because he knows me right. And he was, he was, he was so right. Like, I found him up from the car. And I do this in the car. I just, I'm laughing. I'm just, I'm laughing. I'm just like, you were bloody right

and he laughed and I said I'm sorry you know I've been really fighting against this but you know it's been fear and I had this absolute revelatory realization of what anxiety

feels like you know when somebody feels like they're too scared to leave somewhere or they don't like crowded spaces and you've got someone you love, your mum, your sister, your best friend, a counsellor telling you, go do the thing, look at the thing you're really scared of and go do it. And I've had like a small look into what that feels like.

Davina, what were you scared of? Failing. Failing. Fear. Being scared. Like being alone. not having Michael or my mum around or like I had all these safety blankets in place. My home felt so.

And my old life just felt so alien. It was like six weeks since I'd done anything hard or difficult or demanding or... And your body's not working physically. Your brain is... My body was weirdly good. I could walk. Everything was fine. Oh, I was asleep.

I was tired. Yeah. But my brain was. was messy. Okay. Messy, messy, messy. But I think it wasn't failing so much. I think it was, I was literally terrified of life outside the comfort of my own home.

But the thing, what, if I could speak to a room full of scared people, I would go. I would tell them what it felt like when I got into the car after I'd done this shoot. Sorry. I'm so. That's okay. I'm not sure if you're crying were really happy. I'm really happy.

Oh, good. Is that the feeling that I felt when I got in the car was mega. It's like, do this. And if you don't look at the thing that scares you more than anything, and you might not feel like I can do this straight away. But if you never do it, You will never know that feeling.

And it was amazing, Steve. And it was like, I was like, I'm still in here. Because I think fear, anxiety, like, robs you of yourself in the end. You disappear. Stopps you beginning again. Yeah, yeah. I forget again. You began again.

Again. Begin again again again. Oh my God, I'm like Fred again again again. I began again. That's my DJ name. But that's exactly what a lot of people go through when they consider beginning again, whether it's off the back of a surgery and health school. Or whether it's career change. It could be having a kid and trying to go back into the workforce.

It's that the fear. You know, it's interesting because I've seen people talk about, oh, you know, so many people on these podcasts, they cry and they do all the thing. Crying is so good. Stop vilified crying. Like it's really important to get it out. I always feel much better when I let it go. And if you find that embarrassing or difficult, then don't watch podcast.

Like, this is a good thing to do. If people cry, I'm always like, yes. Yeah, it's a symptom of the depth of the conversations, which is, you know. Stephen, I'd quite like to, like, one day return the favour. You've already returned the favour. No, I want to interview you. Like, we'll do this one.

and I will be able to talk to you because it's really nice actually doing like you talking to somebody about, it's been really I wanted to choose who I spoke to about it. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean, that's the man. I don't want, I wanted it to be, I wanted to feel safe and I did. So thank you for that. I've got a few tiny things I wanted to ask you. Yes. There's a few things that I read online that I wanted to ask you about.

And this is obviously magazines with their fake sources and all that stuff. How are you thinking as you look to the future in your work time? Because some of the magazines have said that you've had a bit of an epiphany and you may be thinking of slowing down a bit, which I struggle with. I thought fucking slowing down a bit. No. Yeah. speeding up.

Oh, that was another thing I wanted to tell you. That's quite interesting is that I didn't think I was symptomatic. Yeah, yeah. I now think I was symptomatic. How? So my short-term, I went and had a three-hour memory test before I went, and obviously, look, I'm menopausal, so my memory's not what it was. But even the woman there was like, okay, your short-term memory is struggling quite a lot.

and I thought well maybe it's just I'm just it's age related or whatever but I did well in other areas like in nonverbal re-sing and stuff I did quite well so I was like oh that's really weird that that is one particular area like around a long remembering a story that someone told me anyway I'm going back to have it retested I'm really looking forward to it because after the operation one of the first things that I remember is waking up and opening my eyes and then thinking, oh my God, like, stop thinking. I think that I have not been thinking.

Twice in the last year I said to Michael, do you think all the time? And he went, yeah. And I said, I can see you thinking all the time. And then I used to think, I'm sure I used to do that. And now I am back and I'm like, well, you can see from me talking to you, I'm like, I'm firing on all cylinders. It's absolutely mad. So you think that that's just could have impacted your previous short-term memory?

Yes. Interesting. You've got three wonderful kids, Holly, Tilly and Chester. Yes. You know, they're much younger than both of us. And I was wondering, again, it's because similar to a question. I should ask early on, but I really want to get clarity on it because you've been through this journey that I haven't been through is what matters to be in life? What is it that actually matters? You touched on it earlier actually and when you said I am living a full life. Yeah. And I think there's that saying a life lived in fear is a life half lived. And if you are, if you are, if you are, if you are, if you are, if you are,

If you don't want to go and do the outrageous thing, I've never wanted to do a bungee jump. I mean, I did end up doing one, but I never wanted to do one. If you don't really want to do something, don't do it. But if there's something that you want to do, do it. And don't, I always think bucket lists, write your bucket list now.

When I did one with my sister Caroline, we wrote a really sweet, lovely bucket list. She died before she could do any of it. Why are we doing bucket lists? when we're dying. Write the bucket list now in your 30s and go, what is my bucket list? Like, what do I want to do before I die?

And let's start doing it now. And your bucket people. Yes. Yeah, and who are your bucket people? Like, who do you want in your life? I mean, that's another thing. I have several times in my life, I've thought, like, okay, who am I going to, who am I going to focus on this year?

Who do, who do I, who's really important to me? I think that's such a nice idea. It's not who do I want to get rid of. Don't get rid of people. Like, people can stay in your life forever. But who's got your full attention this year? Like, who are you going to invest in? And I think that's a nice idea.

But people, connections, talking, giving. And have your goals changed? Have my goals changed? Yes, I tell you one thing that I have. done, realized, is that I do need hobbies. I need something to love doing. I've never had work. It was my hobby.

I love work. I love what I do. I literally, I run here. You ran here today. No. Figuratively. I run here because I love interviewing people. The people who I interview is so interesting.

I love you. I love everybody upstairs. I love this place. Like, I love my job. My job is my husband. hobby. I'm so lucky. So people have hobbies when they don't massively love their job so they can do something that they love outside of work. But I love my work. But I've started singing lessons. Interesting. Oh my God. I'm, I love it. It makes me feel euphoric. You know what I'm

going to ask. What? Oh, no. No plans for an album running. I just, do it at home, I love it. Sometimes me and Michael sing karaoke to each other. Why is that important? Why is that new goal? Because on to, I'm, I'm looking for like dopamine. And I think music, dancing, connecting with people, love equal dopamine. Those are my things. Those are my mood altering drugs. I think I'm going to be a nightmare next year. I've gone to very self-reflective. What's Michael going through? I mean, what's funny is me and Michael reflect together?

Yeah. And we've always been like that. You know, hairstylists and clients, it's like you're, it's a bit like sitting next to somebody in a car, mother child, and you're not looking at each other. When you're looking at a hairstylist, you're looking at them in the mirror. it's like one step removed. You're not actually looking at their face. You're looking in a mirror looking at their face.

So it's a safe space to talk. Yeah. So we've always been a bit like that. But he and I love, we don't do medium talk. Okay, so deep hand. Deep, deep hand. It's great. It's brilliant.

It's so nice. So I can go, I've got something I want to unpick and I talk to you about it. He'll be like, great. No, we're going in, you know. And he can do the same to me. We will always try and get around something, get to the meat of a subject. And sometimes he'll talk to me about something and I'll change my mind about something. And sometimes I can do that with him.

And other times we disagree, but we disagree really healthy. It's like it is brilliant that. I love proper meaty conversations. Does he know how much you mean to him and vice versa, do you think? He absolutely knows how much he means to me. And I know how much I mean to him. I think if I ever was in doubt, I think after this experience, I felt it. And how are you feeling in your core?

Oh my God, grateful. I mean, I feel a bit like, well, I feel like life's, I feel like life's never going to be the same again, but in rather a good way. Can I hug you? Yeah. I'm coming to your seat. Okay. No, you've got a new. Thank you. I'm so glad I did this with you.

Oh, what an honour. Thank you so much, honestly. You've given me so, so, so much in so many ways that you'll never really realise. But I'm so, so, so grateful. And I'm so excited for this, this beginning again, again, again, again. to change the name I'm glad you feel good it's the most important then thank you

I can tell I can tell it so you just said at the limit you said it's life will never be the same but for the better and I really can I can tell you that before really if I made it I'd always said to myself

if I make it through this this will be the greatest thing that's ever happened to me I knew that it's quite weird that isn't it? Yeah but you're both self-reflective but I also think you've got

you're very good at understanding how life how life's lessons But I think that's because I was an addict and I think you having your beginnings and the way that your life was at the beginning makes you know that it doesn't always go the way you think it's going to go

and sometimes it's rubbish but sometimes it's great like it's... Yeah and you've been through difficulty you I think is you approach another difficulty, even before you've been through it, you're able to forecast that there will be a silver lining.

Yes. I've been through that a lot where I go, oh, this is going to suck, but I know on the other end. Do you know what I call it? I read it in a book months, and I can't remember what the book was called, but it's called a pre-mortem.

Ah, pre-mortem, okay, yeah. I love that. Yeah. Forget the post-mortem, figure it all out before it happens. Yeah. Do the premortem. Thank you so much.

It's such an honor that you'd ask you this question, so thank you. I love you. I love you too. Caring me. Yeah, brace yourself exactly. Watch out. It's okay.

I can do with it. Everybody this year. I can do with it. And I also feel like it's giving me extra, extra ammunition in a way for my podcast. Yeah. It's like such a nice. empathy is a big part right yeah I and also I think if you're talking to somebody that's been through something if they know you've been through something it's quite a nice yeah exchange then

it's like I mean you ask so much better questions if you've if you can understand at least a feeling yeah frame of mind yeah yeah because I think that's much of the the job of like someone in this position is trying to understand like you know the right question to ask in that moment and if you've been there then you do you do. you know. It's so fascinating. I don't know. I've definitely spent time thinking about that day. Actually, I get quite terrified of the thought that like I might lose, this is why I was thinking about Michael's position. I get terrified that I might lose Mel. And I like, I can't see on the other side of that. I honestly can't see on the other side of it. Like I know people say, you know,

we're just saying a second to go pre-mortem. You can like forecast you'll find someone else. But you know, you're 30. Yeah. And I'm 57. I'm, I'm, I don't think I would have known what to do at 30. Yeah, okay. But then you call me and Michael. Yeah. And we'll come and help you. Yeah, gosh.

You know, that's what it's about, right? You ask your elders to come and help guide you. But when you get to being an elder, you have lived an entire life. And either you've seen other friends of yours go through something. You've been through something. Your parents have been through something. And every time you learn from it, there's always got to be that question. What's the learning here?

Yeah. and if you make the learning then you learn it for the next time and you can pass it on and share it with someone else Isn't it something just like vicious and cruel about the nature of life that it's in love that we sign up to pain do you know what I mean?

Like in all the good that Michael gets from loving you heat and vice versa you both sign up to the agreement that someday you're going to lose each other and you both willingly sign that contract I can't bear the idea of that I'm hoping because I'm older that I'll go first I'm so hoping that I, but I passed before.

Yeah, it does. Yeah. But then I'm also like horrified by leaving them behind. It's like, yeah, it's difficult. It's really difficult, but listen. Thank you. I love you. Thank you.

Thank you so much. What kind of thing to? I just want to say, thanks very much for watching. And if you could just remember to like and subscribe, I quickly want to say to any of my viewers, that are my age, that subscribing doesn't mean it costs you any money or you end up kind of paying for something weekly. Subscribing just means that you will get notifications or you will know when this podcast is coming out. But it really helps us deliver a great podcast to you, sending you lots of love.

Thanks for watching.