Begin Again with Davina McCall - Dr Tara Swart: Losing My Husband and the Science Behind The Signs He Sends Me

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, neuroscientist and author Dr. Tara Swart shares the extraordinary story of losing her husband, Robin and the signs of his presence she’s received from him ever since. Tara opens up about the deep grief that followed his passing, and how it challenged everything she believed as a scientist. What began as devastation slowly became a spiritual awakening, as Tara started noticing moments that defied explanation from vivid dreams to repeated symbols and numbers. In the process, she began to explore what it truly means to connect with someone after death. The conversation delves into the healing power of nature, the science behind intuition and signs, and the difficult realities of caregiving and loss. Tara also speaks movingly about writing her book The Signs, the comfort of ritual, and the surprising ways love continues even after someone is gone. With wisdom and vulnerability, Dr. Tara Swart offers a profound reflection on grief, healing, and the enduring connection between souls, showing us that love doesn’t end when life does. (00:00) Intro (00:38) Meet Dr. Tara Swart (01:30) Manifesting Love and Finding a Soulmate (04:46) The Connection Between Soul and Body (07:50) Grief and the Enduring Power of Love (11:27) Writing The Signs (17:45) Seeing the Signs in Love and Loss (22:58) The Biopsychosocial Model and End-of-Life Moments (25:25) Diagnosis, Caregiving, and Loving Through Illness (29:32) Sponsor Message: Ancient & Brave (30:36) How to Prepare Yourself to See Signs (35:48) Tools to Regulate the Nervous System (38:42) Designing a Brain-Healthy Life (45:10) Trauma Release, Creativity, and Neuroaesthetics (50:11) Seeing Signs: Personal Stories and Insights (59:11) Intuition, Self-Knowledge, and Meaningful Events Sponsored by: Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet and use code BEGINAGAIN for 20% off your order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I've never shared these things before, but six weeks after my husband died, I actually saw him standing next to my bed. You are a psychiatrist and a neuroscientist. I couldn't just make myself believe you can communicate with someone that's passed away because it would make me feel better I had to be able to prove it. Tell me about Robin. I remember the doctor said to me, you need to start treatment straight away. He thought he was still going to make it. And then it had kind of hit him that he was definitely going to die. And after Robin passed away, I asked for a sign.

Then I was about two and a half years in and I was in like daily communication with Robin. For anybody that has lost somebody, how do we be more open to signs? There were two things that started me on this journey. First of all, you're more likely to see them if you're spending time in nature. But the signs really started when I... Are you kidding me? Just an absolute knowing that love never dies. Can you tell me you're a most outrageous sign?

This is going to blow your mind. So today I am interviewing Dr Tara Swart. I am, well, I love you. I mean, we're friends, right? So it's really nice to be sat here in front of you. And Tara is a psychiatrist and a neuroscientist and a neuroscientist and has worked all over the world with very important people and businesses. But today I want to talk to you about something which I am so pleased you've brought to the fore.

your book, The Signs, I love this book so much because it gives us permission to see and feel what we really need to see and feel to carry on sometimes. And that'll become clear, I think, after we've spoken what I mean by that. But thank you. Obviously, you met your soulmate, Robin. and well let's just talk a little bit about meeting Robin. Can you talk me through where you're at in your life? Because you were a bit like I'm never going to meet anyone.

That's it. I'm done with love. So I'd been married before and got divorced. And then I had dated on and off for a while, but very much protecting my heart, like not anybody that, you know, I thought could break my heart. And then I dated someone for a while and I decided to stay completely single for two years. because I just felt like I was wasting my energy

that I could be putting into my business. So basically I became like a total workaholic flying all over the world. That is a danger, isn't it? For people who love their job, deciding not to have a relationship is basically quite a dangerous thing in a funny sort of way.

Yeah, and I think looking back that I was definitely running away from, you know, love or potential heartbreak. So the second year, I put a tiny heart on my action board. You know, I call Vision Board's Action Board. but it was still a lot of business and travel, and it didn't make any difference. So I thought, if you really believe in this manifestation and it works for everything else, like really, like, try it for love.

So I found this big pink engagement ring, and I put it on the top left corner. And I don't normally put words on, but I found this phrase, joy comes out of the blue, put that on the top middle, and early February I met Robin on a plane in the sky out of the blue. Oh, my God. Wait, and I just quickly want to talk to you about your vision boards and manifesting, because obviously you wrote a book before this. And just in a nutshell, can you just tell us about that? Because that will also help people if they want to do what you're just talking about.

Yeah. So manifestation is bringing into reality the things that you want. And I do that through what's called vision boards, but I also say you have to do the things that make it come into your life, not just create a fantasy and sit on the sofa waiting for it to come true. So even though I wasn't dating at the time, but I had a very big intention of a relationship that would actually lead to another marriage. And we actually got engaged that year as well. So, yeah. Absolutely incredible.

So you met him on a plane. I think I saw him in the lounge. Oh, I see. Okay. Then we were in seats 1A and 1K, so they're far apart from each other. Yeah. Are you like that? I looked at what he was reading.

Did you? What was he reading? Romanob's. Oh, okay. Were you impressed by that? Were you like, oh, I feel like a reader. And if we're going to go into it, he just had cheese and red wine for us to. Is it quite difficult sometimes being a neuroscientist and looking at people and kind of understanding why they're doing something or the motives behind something? Or also wondering, I wonder what it is that's making them do that. I mean, it must be exhausting.

No, because if something alerts my radar, then I'm right in on like, why is this person behaving like this, what's going on? But the rest of the time, you can't be like that. Or like you said, you would go and say it. Go mad. Yeah. So I'd like to just talk to you a little bit. And we'll go back to Robin a bit later. Obviously, you lost Robin.

And when you lose somebody. So I've, like, that's my sister obviously over there in the air. Yeah. That's my dad on the top shelf. and that's my grandpa on the middle shelf. And when you've lost somebody, when I lost my dad, he had Alzheimer's and he was in a home. And the nurse came in who he knew quite well. And after he died, she opened the window to let him out.

Oh, wow. And they do that with everybody that passes in the home. And I was so, I've never seen that before. But what was interesting, I'd been with my sister when she died, but with my dad, it was really apparent that he just left his body. He'd gone. And you talking about the soul and the body being separate things. Where does your belief in that come from? Because to me it made complete sense.

Yeah. So, I mean, I was brought up Hindu. So obviously reincarnation, ancestor worship, past lives were, you know, what I was brought up to believe in. But Robin getting leukemia and then me knowing that the treatment wasn't going to work, shattered everything that I believed in, including manifestation, love, abundance, reincarnation, soulmates. You know, it was all like, I felt quite angry. Yes, I bet. but I was with him when he died

and I immediately knew that that body lying there wasn't him I didn't know where he was I didn't know what it meant I was just like this absolute sense of knowing which really helped me during cremation because I didn't identify with the body in the coffin being him that is quite interesting actually the idea of remating just a but just a vessel a vessel that's exactly how it felt

like the essence of him the spirit of him even though he was so, so poorly in the last few weeks, like he couldn't raise a glass of water to his lips. He, you know, still tried to smile at me. So, you know, he definitely wasn't his old self, like he was a sort of shadow of his old self. But the spirit was very much there. And it was just so odd.

I can't really describe it. But that was the first thing that happened. Then, as in, you know, you said in the book that I've written about dualism and materialism. and all of this kind of stuff, because I had to know as a scientist. You know, I couldn't just believe and, you know, make myself believe something that would make me feel better. I had to be able to prove it, which, you know, in some ways there are unprovable things, obviously, in the book. But as much of the stuff like near-death experiences and terminal lucidity and the nature of consciousness that I could try to prove, I had to.

I mean, I think this is the power of it, is that these are things that I think as lay people we experience, but we think don't be ridiculous. And it's, I got so excited way before I was even thinking that you might even deem to come on my podcast about this coming out because of my experiences of losing people that I love and how much these signs mean to me. Yeah. That I've always slightly poo-pooed them, you know, like, don't be ridiculous. It's just because you need it or, but to have somebody in science look into it and give it meaning. Which is kind of ironic in a way that it had to be that, but obviously I feel super privileged that that's added to the impact that it's had for people. I think where I'm at now, you know, it'll be four years at the end of this month, October we're in. He will actually have been dead for longer than we were married this year.

So that's quite a... How does that feel? It feels, I mean, I feel very relieved that my story is out. out there and I can live fully authentically now, it feels like permission to move forward with my life. Yeah. But it's strange. Yeah.

Yeah, just, I mean, it's not longer than we were together, but it's longer than we were married. And it just seems like so odd because I felt like we were married for a long time, but this four years just seems so short. So, you know, that perception of time passing is something I've written about in the book as well. But where I'm at now is so unscientific. It's just an absolute knowing that love never dies. I know that's like 100%. Sorry, that's so comforting. And I mean, you say it out loud and that makes such absolute sense. Of course it doesn't. It's a feeling. And that

person never dies because of that, you know. And I think sometimes I've enjoyed the pain of grief because it shows me and them, wherever they are, how much I loved them. So I had a moment in the mirror where I realized that staying in a certain part of the grief, being unhappy, kind of, you know, feeling like your life is never going to go back to normal or how it was is actually easier than being happy and re-engaging in life. And I had a moment where I thought, it's okay for me to be happy again. It's okay for me to say I'm happy. It's okay for me to have career ambition again.

How long in was that? Oh, it was quite recent. So I would say like three and a half years. Yeah. It does take time. Yeah. But that realization that saying I'm happy and being okay was actually harder than staying in the grief for that long. Yeah, I mean, obviously I've learned so much.

And I always said I was never ever going to share my private story unless I learned something that I thought would help people. So I'm glad I got to that point as well and obviously being just like blown away by the response to it all. What made you start? Because you've really gone into quite a lot of work to find out the ways that we can get ourselves into a position where we are able to receive signs. And at what stage of your grief did you start looking into that or think one day where I'm going to start doing this work now as groundwork and I might publish it. Was it like that? No. No, how did it work?

There was about two and a half years in, and I was in like daily communication with Robin. And then a big beauty brand in China wanted 60 copies of the source in simplified Chinese and couldn't get hold of it for some reason. So I texted my publisher and he said, you know, we'll sort that and how about another book, Tara? And they hadn't asked me for five years. And I think I've been pretty vocal about saying I absolutely hate writing and don't think I'm good at it. So because I was in this daily communication with Robin, I thought, that's the first time I thought I could write a book. So I said, actually, I have an idea. So he said, let's have a coffee.

Next thing I know I've got a contract being waved under my nose. And it just was easier for me to stay at home and write for a year. So, yeah, I started. And it was hard. You know, people said it'll be cathartic. It wasn't cathartic. It was, I mean, last October around the time of the Anne. anniversary, it was so sad. It just made me so sad. And, you know, I even felt sorry for the desk

editor knowing that they were reading this with the dates that were coming up and, you know, kind of understanding how difficult that must be for me. But, but now it's cathartic that it's out and, you know, it's helped so many people. So that's interesting that writing it wasn't. What made it hard? I had to relive a lot of memory. Right. I couldn't tie up the emotional stuff when I had to put personal story and for some reason I had to handwrite it

and then the way I worked with my desk editor was that we would have a Zoom call that would transcribe it so that we had the, you know, what I had said was written down already so I said oh the easiest thing will be for me to just read this out to you on Zoom and I couldn't read it without crying

I struggled reading the preface of the audio book to be honest I would be exactly the same It's a huge deal. And I think the person that I was probably the most, I struggled with losing the most was my sister. We lived together up until the day she died. Oh, God.

We had six years apart when she stupidly went to live in London. I was like, what are you doing? But then she came to live with me again. It was like, good. And I really just. missed her. We were together all the time, a bit like you would, a partner, like she was really part of the fabric of the life. Yeah, if you live together, then I think the gaping loss is so much more in your face. And then you know about this, caring for somebody that's sick

when they die, that also leaves a big hole of the caring. You know, they're remembering the medicines, the names of the medicines, they're going to the pharmacy, they're talking to the pharmacist about how your loved one is, the taking all the meds back, the not having to go over and check on them three times a day. It was such an interesting loss that of the medicine and the caring about someone that's left a huge hole. And so when I, when I lost her, that was, that was the hardest thing ever. But, and I, I, I pined for her. but then a big pain and real grief came again seven years after she died. Oh, no.

Yeah, it was so weird. And I don't know if you're having this now. Sorry, I'm talking, I don't know. But I don't know if you're having this now, but around an anniversary, the light at the various times of day and the temperature of the air and the clothes that people wear all bring it back to me because it reminds me it's this time of year. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I hadn't thought about it like that because for me, it's the autumn leaves, isn't it? And the robins. And now that I practice neuroesthetics, which will also go into, which is the art of noticing beauty in nature, and I'm just so in love with the autumn leaves.

So it's kind of become a positive. Yes. And I think because I was so isolated, because I was living in the middle of nowhere when Robin passed away, that I, well, people came to visit me every day, but I don't think I was really noticing what they were wearing or anything. Yes. I mean, I feel really strongly like Robin is doing all of this with me.

Yeah. Everything that's in the book, you know, meet every podcast that I speak on. And, you know, when people say his name and talk about him, like almost as if they know him a little bit, it just, to me, that keeps him alive. Isn't that a beautiful thing? It's a legacy. And I don't know if you've seen inside the cover.

Have you taken the paper cover off? Oh no. I haven't. Let's do a reveal. Yes. Oh my God. How funny is that? I didn't. Oh, I love that. Oh, so sweet.

Like, my publishers, they promised me that they would put a little gold-imbled Robin up. And tell me about the three circles and the triangle. It's not a particular choice. It's to do with sacred geometry, which is like how nature works and the world works. And Robin was obsessed of the Fibonacci sequence. It had a nod to that. That's really lovely. I know. Oh, thanks for telling me about that. That's so nice. So when you were sort of, did you talk to other people or had you talked to many other people about signs that they'd received or how did you you know that it was a universal thing? Yeah, I mean, I have a few friends who have lost people,

but I don't know anyone that had lost their partner. So I'd heard it spoken of before. And I think I was like desperate to get one, right? And apart from seeing a lot of Robbins, I didn't. But then six weeks after he died, I actually saw him standing next to my bed. When, how did that happen? Yeah. So it was, 4 a.m. when that happened and it was, I was sleeping on my left-hand side at the edge of our bed with my right shoulder exposed from the duvet and I just got this massive thump to my shoulder and I had been awake about an hour earlier because I heard a strange sound which it's only just clicked for me now that was probably him starting to come through because there's something else that happened

with some electrical glitches and then he came through recently which I can also tell you about. So I, we'd been burgled when he first got diagnosed, the garages outside. So I got up to go and check if it was that, but the noise got quieter as I went away from my bedroom. So I came back and I thought maybe it was birds in the distance, but actually, again, thinking about it, I'd never heard birds in the distance like that there. It's a very silent place. I went back to sleep. I'm a good sleeper, so I was fast asleep, got this thump to my shoulder.

As my eyes acclimatized to the darkness, I just saw him coming. through, like becoming more and more solid. And I could see life size, the outline of his face and hair, and then he just dissolved from the top down. And I just, like, gasped and fell back asleep. And when I woke up in the morning, I googled, is it possible to see a lost loved one? And then I think within a few days of that, one of my neighbours wanted to drive me to the Christmas market, because it was sort of mid-December. And I didn't know her that well, and I didn't know if she was spiritual or religious but I guess because I you know wasn't really seeing that many people I just blurted it out and she turned to me with this beautiful smile on her face and said you are so lucky

and she shared about losing her dad the year before and she's never you know seen him or received anything and again I think he was still in a bit of shell shock I didn't really realize how lucky I was of course now I realize everyone that's lost somebody would love to see them again you know you'd give everything for a second with them again um But the signs really started, I think how, it just clicked for me one day that numbers would be the way. I think I'd just been seeing a lot of angel numbers, a lot of 11-11. And I told him that he was my twin flame, and that's the number for twin flames. And I was going through a really difficult period.

I had to leave that house where we'd got married and where I'd scattered his ashes and moved back to London. And I kept seeing four-four everywhere. and I looked up what it means, and it means your angels are protecting you and guiding you and you're on the right path, and that meant a lot to me at the time. And then he always used to say to me about any sort of dilemma, you have to Rubik's cube it.

That's the way his brain worked. Yes. And I was watching just like some psychological thriller and somebody mentioned the Rubik's Cube. And I just thought it's really odd. And then I sort of just had this moment of insight where I thought he would communicate with me through numbers. And so once I opened myself up to that, I started asking for specific numbers, like anniversaries and stuff.

And this is something I find fascinating that you can ask. And I've never done that. This sounds amazing. Yeah, it is. And the number of DMs I've heard from people saying, I heard you say that on a podcast. So I asked and it came almost immediately is astounding. But in your book, you say people do come and be present. So where I've written about near-death experiences, I said that people who have them and people who sort of induce the closest thing through dark retreats, they don't fear death anymore. So they live life with like much more gusto, like the more likely to take healthy risks. Don't, you know, don't worry about failing. And I think that's what happened to me. I think because I lost my husband, I remember like even though I then like lost my house and my car and quite a few other things, thinking like nothing.

can be as bad as losing Robin. Like, there's nothing that can scare me now, because I've lost, like, the single most important thing in my life. So if you actually think about it, which I stupidly didn't, I'll say, that book could have been career suicide for me. I could have become so discredited in the scientific community. I didn't. And actually, at the Penguin Sales Team conference,

where I presented the book for the first time, so that was the first time I spoke publicly about losing Robin. Someone did say, are you concerned about criticism? And I said less so than with the source for some reason. I think I was just not as evolved in my career and personality, like that five years ago. And then I said, well, of course, you know, there will be some criticism, but I'm confident that I can, you know, speak to it if that happens. But, I mean, that was foolish.

really. And I'd just like to say that amongst the people that have written to me, there are so many psychologists, psychiatrists, dentists, doctors who have written to me as well. And I just feel so sad that we're literally like handcuffed and gagged and not allowed to speak about stuff like this. And what I really like about what you said about opening the window to let your dad out is that there's lots of research on. So we have what's called a biopsychosocial model of healthcare, which is you look after the body, you look after the mind, you look after the, you know, who's around that person that's important. But we should have a biopsychosocial spiritual model.

And there's papers dating back 10 years that say this, but I don't really see it happening in practice. What is that a biopsycho? So as well as the body, mind and community, also taking into account the person's spiritual or religious beliefs. Because especially for care of the elderly and at end of life, that could make a very big difference to, you know, like for example, Robin didn't practice as a Catholic

but he wanted last rights and so of course I made sure that happened do you think it is a natural thing like Robin did to go back to a religion that you have practiced maybe as a child or your family practiced when you're near death?

I think so because I think the risk of not doing the thing that you've believed in or been brought up around would be quite hard He didn't want a religious memorial or anything like that. But he did, yeah, it was interesting that he wanted last rites. Yeah. I mean, the other thing I think talking to you and for anybody else

that's been going through something similar is that there are so many awkward moments and how to talk to somebody about. the fact that they're going to die and how hard that is sometimes and how funny it is when somebody from the outside comes in with all their weird living energy. It's like some weird outside energy. There's something that happens when you're just with somebody in that very enclosed environment. We were in such a bubble.

We, you know, we'd really been in a bubble for over one and a half years because I shielding him during the pandemic. Of course, yeah. And then I've never shared these things before, but I had to give him his diagnosis. So we've been seeing the lymphoma doctor. And the doctor emailed me and said, I need to speak to you this evening after clinic. But we need Robin's permission for me to speak to you and not him, which Robin obviously immediately gave.

And the doctor said to me, don't come and see me on Monday. You need to go to the Leukemia Award. and he has to start treatment straight away. So I walked round and told him this. And his immediate reaction with no hesitation was, well, it's been the happiest five and a half years of my life. And I said to him, I love you so much. I wish this was happening to me, not to you.

And then when, so then he started the treatment and, you know, I had to take his temperature all the time. but I kept him like so safe we did not see anyone go anywhere apart from the hospital so at first he was still able to like get up and walk to the Yon Sweet bathroom by himself but then later

it was just easier for a while you know there was a sort of in between period where it was just easier to help him like in the bed and so the nurse he needed to use the bathroom the nurse came to help him and he didn't want her to help because I was there so he said I'd rather my wife does it

and which you know it was fine but I did say to him you know I'm not here 24-7 and you've got to let the nurses help you and he's he looked at me and he said why would anyone want to be a nurse and I said darling they they want to give your you know to preserve your dignity like when you're like feeling like this and they're like angels and you've just got to let them help you yeah and so yeah the kind of conversations you have the things you have to say like the things I had to do no wife should have to do yeah and so yeah And because I was a doctor, I could do a lot more than any loving wife would even be, you know, capable of doing. So, Tara, I feel really bad because I really feel like I'm traumatising me here. I don't know how we've ended up here, but I'm, I'm, if you're okay, I'm okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. You know, for me, the reason that I've been through everything that I've been through and carried on is because it's not about me. Yeah. It's about helping people.

Yes. And so as long as I feel like this conversation might help people who's been in a similar position, then I can have it. I mean, I think in particular just hearing people talk about their grief or grieving or when somebody's ill, I've talked about my sister. I talked about it to Stephen Bartlett on Diary of a CEO, talked about her dying. And the number of people that loved hearing that. loved hearing that because they'd been through something similar. There is something rather lovely hearing someone else's very difficult moment. Yeah.

And, you know, we talked about, you mentioned joy in grief, like after they've died, but I, in those last moments, days that we shared together were like the saddest, but most precious moments I ever had with her. Like it was magic. And I am so grateful to have had that time. You know, that I think of all those people that lose someone in an accident. Yeah. Oh, the shock.

Yeah. You know, that I had a chance to properly... Yeah, that's true. How do you take your tea, Davina? Milk, no sugar and a scoop. of AMBTC, please. ANB what? It's Ancient and Brave True Collagen, the sponsors of our show.

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to get 20% off result. Choose to that. Choose to that. For anybody that has lost somebody and, you know, there's a blueprint in the signs of lots of different ways that we can prepare ourselves to be more open to signs. Could you talk me through some of those? Yeah. I think, first of all, having this conversation and having the psychological safety in your own community to have that conversation is important.

Because obviously if I started talking about signs and everyone just thought I was losing my mind from grief or my friends started to get worried about me because I was talking about signs. It would have pushed my, you know, it would have changed my journey. So I already, in the past few years, have been having that conversation a lot with my friends. And they get signs from Robin as well, which is wonderful. Oh, that's...

You even want people that didn't know him. Wow. Mm. And I don't see him in dreams that much. But two or three of my friends, they get dream messages from him. I get so jealous of people that dream of loved ones. I know, because it's like you're actually seeing them. Yeah.

I never get that. I've had it a couple of times, but, and I can partly do lucid dreaming. So I managed to extend one of them a little bit, but then I think I must have fallen asleep or something. And I was like, oh, I wish I'd stayed in that dream for longer because it was so vivid. What is lucid dreaming? So lucid dreaming is when you're aware you're dreaming and you can actually control the events in the dream to some extent. I think I've had that like once or twice.

Do you get that a lot? No, not a lot, but I've had it. So, yeah. If I ever became aware that I was in a dream with Robin, I would try to keep going. Of course. And so one of the things, obviously, is getting your community aware that you're not going that shit crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. And being able to have mutual conversations about it. And then for me, the first two things that started me, you know, on this journey that I had no idea how I was going to navigate were nature and community. So, I mean, people came to visit me every single day. I got so many flowers that I had, I ran out of vessels to like put them in. And so one thing I learned is that if someone close to me loses someone, I'm going to buy them a vase, not flowers. Yes. Oh my God, that's good. It was a good learning. And I'm talking about like six months solid of getting flowers like all the time. Wow. Even now, and it's been nearly four years, I would say borderline overly protective friends.

But I love them, obviously. Oh, that's nice though, isn't it? I think they just couldn't bear to see anything else, you know, about it happened to me. Yes. Which I get. Yes. And that's really lovely, isn't it? it. It's, well, you were talking about community. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I worry for people that

don't have that level of support because I, I mean, I just had such a, like, you know, fallback amount of people to fall back on that, yeah, so when people sometimes write to me and say, I don't have anyone, I just, I just can't bear it. So I've written about how to try to bring some form of, you know, support into your life if you don't have a lot of friends by either volunteering or joining like an dress group, like a walking one or an art one or something. So I was, you know, living on a large property that I would just like walk around for half an hour every day.

And then because I didn't really have anything else to do or couldn't really do anything else, I just started walking for longer and longer. And I felt the benefits on my mental health of doing that. And I also had a weird analogy, which was that I have a terrible sense of direction. And where I was living, I would have no signal. So if I got lost, I wouldn't be able to use Google Maps.

And I could walk for hours without seeing anyone. But I started going down paths I'd never been before. And I just had this, a bit like that, you know, the weird feeling of him not being him when he died. I just had this weird feeling that I would find my way. And on some kind of spiritual level that I'd been in that place before, which I can't explain. but the for me to I mean I can lose my way in London I can be crying on a street corner in London and I've lived it in my entire life

for me to say it's okay to just keep walking because eventually you'll find your way back felt like an analogy for grief yes even having to drive because Robin always drove and even when he was between treatments I would drive to to the country but he would say get into this lane

go down to 50 turn off here so suddenly having to drive on my own. At first, I was like, you know, shaking and terrified and didn't even feel like, oh my God, I got home safely, that's great. I just looked at the seat next to me and just thought, like, why aren't you here? But then my driving improved, you know, like, it had to. And so I used that as an analogy.

I was like, I can't see my grief journey, but I can see that I've improved in driving this much in six months. so it must be the same. I like this idea of nature being so healing. And often, you know, these long walks are like, I just need to keep going. And how much they help. Yeah.

And I think, so my neighbour, she lost her brother and she said to me, just walk your way back to healing. Wow. She specifically said that, yeah. So great. Yeah. But I think the thing for me was, when you walk and it goes across the seasons as well,

you see this continuous cycle of how nature recycles everything. Yes. Like, yes. And even in, weirdly, in the bouquets of flowers I would get, the roses always die first. And so I became a bit obsessed at watching the life cycle of a rose. But understanding that the petals and, you know, they go back into the earth and they form some of the soil

that helps new ones to grow. But also, when nature is so beautiful, you feel awe and you feel connected to something greater, and I think that really helped me as well. And also a lot of signs come from nature because the classic ones like the white feather, the robins, you're more likely to see them if you're spending time in nature. You talk about regulating your nervous system in the book

about that's another way to help yourself. Yeah. Tell me a little bit. about the other ways that you can kind of regulate your nervous system. So I believe in creating what I call a patchwork quilt throughout the day. So there are lots of different touch points that, you know, do that for me. But also long term, you know, I've obviously built up a lot of mental resilience and have learnt to stay in a regulated state most of the time.

But I listen to classical musical musical chanting in the morning whilst I'm getting ready. chanting? Can we spotify that? Yeah, like Buddhist, Buddhist chanting. I think find one that you like because there are a few different ones. So I listen to either Buddhist or Hindu chanting. So chanting is good, right, for us. Why is it good? I think it is and humming as well. So because I listen to that, I hum a lot.

Musical chanting in the morning. I'm then humming it for a lot of the day. So that kind of continues it. I think it's to do with the vibrations in your body. And you know I love going back to evolution. And if you think about our ancestors in Paleolithic times, they had no spare resources for anything that was just like fun or a luxury. Everything was to do with survival.

So basically food, shelter and reproduction. So why did they drum and chant and hum and dance and make cave paintings? It must be integral to human survival. So, yeah, gratitude practice. I sort of, I start my day with that, but if I'm ever feeling stressed, then I will do it immediately and it changes my mindset quite quickly. A gratitude practice. Yeah, yeah. So tell me what does that look like?

You just would lie there and you'd think of things that you're grateful for. So I start it in bed in the morning, but I start it very practically because I think I've got the, you know, the ideal bed for a neuroscientist, which is like, science. sleeping pillow silk pillow case like really good mattress and wool topper and like lovely sheets and stuff so I just give gratitude for those immediately because I can that's I can latch on to something before I start thinking oh my god I've got Devena's podcast today what should I wear you know because it's easy to go down that road first yes um okay that's quite nice so regulate your brain before you start worrying about the day yeah definitely um and my phone is like floors down from my bedroom so I don't even see that.

So you never have it in your bedroom? Never. Ever. No. I have an alarm clock. If that's people's excuse, you can just get an alarm clock. So then during the day, if I start to think something's on my mind that I'm worried about, then I've got quicker and quicker at remembering to do a gratitude practice in the moment

to kind of like make my mindset more positive. I'd love to talk to you about neural pathways. Like how, we've been talking quite a lot recently about fear. And there are certain social media platforms that there feels like a lot of fear mongering on there because it's more clickable. And we are living in a time of great, like there's so much kind of strife in the world and extreme political views. and just feels quite toxic the world and we don't get to see much beautiful and there's beautiful positivity happening everywhere

but we don't see it what happens if we feel like we feel of danger everywhere see it everywhere can you unpick that? Yeah the greatest example I can give you related to that is that so it's about 9-11 that those that imagery

of the Twin Towers falling, people who had no connection to New York didn't lose anyone, no personal connection to it whatsoever, who repeatedly watched that imagery, because it was on the news a lot, could get PTSD. So I'm also very, very careful about what I see on social media or television. So basically, that would make you hypervigilant. It would make you anxious. It would help your amygdala and hippocampus, so that's the emotional centres and the memory centres of the brain, to get together and forecast danger, which would, you know, probably prevent you from doing some things

that you actually, you know, could enjoy. Yeah, I mean, I was just actually talking to my hairdresser about the world is in a really bad state at the moment. I mean, it was bad enough after COVID. It was, you know, bad enough during, bad enough before. but now it's really bad. And I start up. Yeah.

So even for someone like me who curates everything that, you know, gets to my brain really carefully, I can't not know these major things that are going on in the world. But let's just talk about how you create this because I've started trying to do this and I've deleted a social platform off my phone. And I have deleted loads of accounts that I feel serve me, anger, negativity, not things that I need to see, things that feel bad for me. And this is particularly since my operation, where my brain felt vulnerable to imagery, toxic imagery or messaging.

And it's made me feel much better. Are there any other ways that people can specifically try and change a memory? Can you talk yourself into changing a neural pathway if you feel that there's a pattern of thinking that's negative for you? I mean, I think if it's as bad as what you're describing, then probably therapy would be, you know, would just make it easier than trying to do it yourself. Talking therapy? Yes, but I want to add a couple of things here. So, you know, journaling does help to offload things from our minds as well. But I had two sets of therapy. Once Robin was ill, it was offered in the hospitals. I took it up straight away. It lasted for a year. But then by the second anniversary, I was in such a problem. bad way that my GP was begging me to take antidepressants. And I said, but I'm not depressed. I'm

in grief. And she said, well, I think you're totally burnt out. You've got PTSD and you're in grief. And this would just help to take the edge of things. And she, we're very close. And she said, I just can't watch you suffering like this. But I knew for me, and I'm not saying this is for everyone that if I couldn't get through this by relying on myself, I would never be able to trust myself again. And I'm back at that place now where I trust my instincts so deeply that my friends are actually commenting on it at the moment. How does that feel? It feels amazing. It's like it just it just makes life so easy to be able to trust yourself that much. and you know whether sometimes it's good things sometimes it's bad things but I you know

I'm okay with what I know to be you know right for me or wrong for me we've got we've gone on such and I'm really enjoying this Tara so yeah I think for people watching that have gone on a dark path and in light of what is happening in the world like we just like we said some people really are frightened of life You know, they watch the news too much, or they get onto social media and they're following all the news platforms and they do, blah, or they follow something and they're so angry about the way that people are behaving about this. Or it's, we don't have enough places where we see lambs and kittens. Exactly. And babies.

I find this bunny, bunny spire account on a social platform. And it's just so cute. Yeah. Like, if you looked at my explore page. Me too. It's babies. Like puppies. Funnies.

Yeah, but that's ex. Mushrooms. That's where I've got to now. Yeah. Where did you just say? Oh, mushrooms. Yeah, because you work with Dirty, don't you? Yeah.

God, love Simon so much. Yeah, same. Like, what a guy. Yeah. But, but, like, it is hilarious. I mean, beautiful, mushrooms. Yes. fungi are amazingly beautiful.

I mean, there is science behind trying to help us get to a place where our brains, and I know you've talked before about the gut brain axis, but that is really important. Like our gut microbiome and taking care of that is phenomenally important for the state of our brain, right? Yeah, and in the source I'd written about gut brain axis, but here I've written about the gut, gut microbrome and brain triangle. Right. And just gone into like another level of depth in terms of how looking after that helps with us accessing our intuition as well. But just to segue back from what we were talking about, I came to learn, thankfully, well, I wish I'd come to it a bit earlier,

but about trauma release from the body. So most people have heard of the book, The Body Keeps a Score by Bessel van der Kock, and that talks about trauma being trapped in the body to a point where you can't articulate it through speech. Right. So the answer to that is also very much spoken about in the book, which is that I actually went and had body realignment therapy in cranious acore therapy, but people can dance around the living room,

you know, sort of do some drumming, walk in nature, do yoga, do art, you know, all just things that kind of use your body, not just your mind and particularly articulate. speech. I really liked, I mean, you just mentioned art, music, dancing, and in the book, you talk about creativity and how important that is for de-stressing. But what I loved, because as I told you earlier, I'm a sort of black and white person. I'm a, you know, there's a right and a wrong answer, maths, like it'll make everything makes sense. But when you said it doesn't matter

if you can draw, it's the just drawing. Don't. don't get hung up. What is the science behind that? Like? So that's my new favourite area of study, which also connects back to what you were saying about how people access signs and how you can try to reverse this danger, you know, alert that we're all on, which is the field of study called neuroaesthetics, which is about the arts and beauty and culture and the effect of those things on our mental health, our physical health and our longevity. And that's the splits the arts into making and beholding. So you can either do a drawing or you can go to an art gallery.

So you can either sing in your shower or listen to music and you can dance around your living room or go to the ballet kind of thing. And there are different benefits from making and beholding. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. So I thought maybe they'd be the same, but they're not. No. And, you know, I would admit that I do a lot more beholding than making.

although I consider my like chopping food and cooking is like art therapy for me. Oh yes. Yes. Definitely. Because that is creating something beautiful, isn't it? Yeah. And I kind of occasionally I'll listen to a podcast whilst I'm doing it, but mostly I actually do it as therapy. Like, you know, when I was writing, it was my first break from stopping writing and moving into like evening mode. And like when, you know, we were in the pandemic,

it was the signal to my brain that you finish. work now and now it's time to be a wife and, you know, kind of make it, you know, make everything homely and stuff like that. And so there's a really, like, I find astounding statistic, which is that people who indulge in the arts every two months have a 31% lower chance of dying. And people who indulge only twice a year have a 14% lower chance of dying. Really? I actually, in my research, looked at is art what makes us human and there's quite a strong argument from archaeologists and anthropologists and stuff

that it is and so some other statistics that I really liked where we know about cave paintings from 40,000 years ago but 10 and 20,000 years before that we were in Southern Africa people were making carvings into ostrich eggshells and we were making necklaces out of shells and 50,000 years before that

we were finding ochre and crumbling it and putting it on our faces and bodies and we think there was a reproductive advantage to that because you would look more attractive and creative. But 500,000 years ago, we were making tools that were more beautiful and symmetrical than they had to be to do the job that was required. Yes.

So art is, you know, like perhaps second only to nature, but nature is also an art form. Art is very integral to the human experience, sense with it that way. It just made me think about something about Michael. So Michael builds things. He makes things. So he builds coffee tables or kitchens or he'll,

he's built an outdoor shower the other day or he'll build a sink. He'll make taps. But sometimes he'll do something like he built a bench. And he was a bit like, I don't know why I'm building this bench, but I'm building it. And then a month later, we will sit on the bench in the morning with a cup of tea and have a very big, deep, and meaningful about something. And he'll go, that's why I build a bench. You know, that there is a thing about, sometimes you don't know why you're making something beautiful or creating something or painting something.

It suddenly makes sense months later. Yeah. It's the interesting thing about creating. So the other ways that we can open ourselves, we've talked about creativity, we've talked about nature. Nature. And then I think it is very directly asking for unmistakable signs. And it's not going to happen on the same day for everyone right away. And later you can become more specific about it.

Like I asked for a sign of three first American symbols. by 7pm the next day. And... It's so demanding. I know. They're probably going, God, this is classic Tara. How are we going to get this one?

Pushing me. Yeah. So funny. But at first, I think for people either notice if there's something that keeps coming to you, do Robbins keep flying close to you, do you find white feathers lying around,

are there numbers that you repeatedly see? That's one way of starting the journey. A more direct way, particularly if you've lost a loved one, is to think about that person, think of a memory that, you know, you really cherish with them or an in-joke that only you two would get,

and then choose a symbol that would represent that to you and ask for them to send it. And then, you know, wait and see what happens. I mean, I've got so many now. I should have written them all down, but, you know, I haven't. Can you tell me your most outrageous sign? Yeah, I think I mean, they'd get more and more outrageous,

but I'm going to start with one. So it was Valentine's Day, and one of my girlfriends had taken me out for lunch and a walk, and then I was actually doing a sort of, like, workshop with Simon. And it got to about six, and, yeah, he put me in an Uber.

And I was fine. I had a lovely day, but I suddenly felt a bit sad that I was going home alone to an empty house. Yes. And so I thought, darling, you've got to send me a sign for Valentine's Day. And then I heard a car, and it's a very specific car that Robin had. I could hear it coming from behind.

And it drove straight past. And I thought, oh, it's red. And you didn't like red sports cars. But I suppose it's like right for Valentine's Day. And then I got this absolute urge. And this happens to me when I know a sign's coming. I get this like, like, kind of like, I have to like see something. And I thought, I have to see the registration of that car.

And I immediately thought that R.B. is going to be in it because he was Robin Bee. Yes. But like I was stuck in traffic. That lane was free flowing. The chances of us catching up were really low. But somehow we did. And I took a photo of the registration plate. And it said C-21 R-B-N.

So I sent it to my assistant, who's like my workwife. And, no, before I sent it to her, I was thinking, what's C-21? Like, that doesn't mean anything to me, but RBN. That was a sign as well. Yeah, because I then cropped the photo to send it to her. I even Googled C-21 to see if it meant anything of relevance, and it didn't. And she said, RBN is phonetically Robin, so that's way more than just R-B. And she's...

RBN, of course. Yeah. It's basically Robin without the valve. Oh, that's mad. And she said, it was... birthday was the 21st of September and he was born in Canada. No, okay, that is mad. Yeah. And then

another series of things happened around my birthday. So you can see which birthday. My birthday this year. This year, so this is all. So do you feel like you are more open now to signs than you were closer

to when he died? Because I wonder whether you're so raw and so in it that you're, you know, we're talking about getting your mind to a space where you're open and inviting them in. I think when you're right in the thick of immediate grief, you're almost grieving too much to let the signs in in a funny kind of way. Yes, but also I believe that this whole process has been like learning a language.

Right. I have now become fluent. Yeah. I've become fluent in this language. And it's only just occurred to me that that sign came on Valentine's Day and the next thing I'm going to tell you came on my birthday. I mean, he is sending these things on the days that he knows I need. them.

Okay, so tell me what happened on your birthday. So I flew back from like my third trip to LA in two months. I was absolutely exhausted and jet lagged. But I had already arranged to have a pre-birthday dinner with my friend. So it was the day before my birthday. And she had chosen this new place that we'd never gone to. And when we got there, it was a bit strange because it was pre, it was a set menu and it was pre-paid.

So she said, well, she said Tara doesn't eat me. So can we go to the regular restaurant downstairs? And they said, you can, but we're not going to refund you. So I said, it's fine. I'll just eat around, you know, I'll eat everything else. Yeah. And they said we can do some substitutions if you don't eat meat. So we were like, fine.

And we started it. It was like several small courses. And it was delicious. So she actually called the way to pack over and said, thank you for not letting us leave because this is amazing. Oh, nice. And then I looked down at the glass. I look down at her glass.

And in the bottom of the glass was engraved R.B. So we took a photo. Both the glasses had R.B. Engraved at the bottom. That's not a brand of glassware I've ever heard of. That's so weird. Yeah. Did you ask the waiter about that?

No. No. No. No, we just... My God, that is so mad. Yeah. And she's one of the few that I've never met him. But she said to me, I feel like he does send you messages through me.

And I said, I've noticed it before as well. So then she... I said, I'm going to do... a dinner on Robin's birthday. Just like, to be honest, I wasn't going to invite her because she hadn't met him. I was going to invite some of his friends and my friends who knew him.

But she kind of insisted in a cue way. And she said, let me put it in my diary. So 21st of September, she goes to put it in her phone calendar and she just has this shocked look on her face. And I'm like, what? And she said, I used to have this habit of writing in people's birthdays and then putting the age that they're going to be this year but I obviously haven't updated it for years

because it's my aunt's birthday too and the age that's in there is 44 and she knows that's my angel number with Robin. That's just too much, isn't it? The next morning I get a screenshot from her saying I'm shaken up. She received an email who's tied... So she paid for dinner.

We normally always split it. Because she'd prepaid, I said, can I pay you back off? And she went, no, no, no. And she'd also bought me a gift. She sounds great, but... She is great. She is great.

she's great. All my friends are amazing. The next, so she said, I'm shaken up. I look at the screenshot. The title of the email is a thank you from Robin. And it was a receipt for a charitable donation she'd made two weeks earlier. And I said, the fact that you took me out for dinner, you paid for dinner, you gave me a gift, that's exactly what Robin would have wanted and done. So he's literally thanking you. And then the last one is going to blow your mind.

A few days later, she matches on a dating app with somebody called Robin Bieber. No. Yes. What? Yeah. No. That, no. And there's more?

Oh, God, no. I don't know if I can take any more, Tyra. This is like a lot. Are you kidding me? No. I mean, that's not even that common a name. No. It's not common to talk.

Okay, okay, carry on. Go, more, more. So then, of course, it crossed my mind. I want to look at this person on Instagram. And then I thought, don't, it's weird. Yeah, just don't. And I think I was actually coming here. So I was just trying to set that up.

I could make my excuses. I was coming here, so that's a long journey across Sunday. Oh, it's a long journey, Tara. Yeah. It's very long. So obviously, at some point during that journey, I was like, I can't resist. I've got to look. So I went to look.

I feel so sorry for this guy, because everyone's going to get them look. Maybe you'll get some new followers. I looked at the account. I picked a random picture. So not anything from the top row. No. Just a random one where he had the, you know, these like eye gel pads you can put on. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

And so it's just a funny picture. Yeah. And the caption was, EYE, I love you. And the date was Valentine's Day. So to me, why did I pick that picture and get that message? It's from My Robin. I mean, sometimes, you know, Like these things happen and you think, oh, these are signs definitely.

But also sometimes I think, because you talk about intuition. And I sometimes believe that there are things that, like my intuition is something that's protecting me as well. Like I might see something that has come to me or that I see that other people might not see, but that just helps me. Yeah, definitely. Do you know what I mean? I think it feels like a dance between. our intuition being open and whatever that source is, you know, God, the universe, lost loved one, kind of dancing or interweaving.

When I had my operation, the thing that came out of that operation, the word I couldn't stop thinking about, and I met somebody else that had had had brain surgery and they had exactly the same word was synchronicity. like just this kind of weaving of life and how things happen and things happen for a reason and how weird that that happened then and sliding doors moments and intuition I think is being open to hearing, reading, acknowledging, seeing things and sometimes I feel like those kind of things can save your life. Sometimes they can just keep you safe. Sometimes they can heal your heart.

But intuition is so healing in so many ways when it's working for you. I was thinking of getting a really strong feeling of they can change the course of your life. Yes. Yes. I mean, I've got friends of mine that have moved country on an intuition. Oh, I have done. Yeah. You've moved country or you've had friends that have.

No, I did that when I was. married to my first husband, we moved to Australia, but the place that we chose, I said to him that's our destiny. And he didn't even question all the other places we could have gone. So I've also always had that strong backing from someone important to me that my intuition is worth listening to. But it's next level now. I mean, it's... Have you heard of Ram Dass? Okay, so Ram Dass, what would you call him, like a spiritual, like leader? Was he put... He was sort of like a good... Like a yogi.

A yogi. He was American. He's dead now. I'm just going to explain to people. But he he's done lots of beautiful talks which have been put to music by various people. You can find them on Spotify and things like that. John Hopkins did that amazing version of Sit Around the Fire. Sit around the Fire is an amazing meditation.

Lovely to listen to. But in it, he says, you can let go of everything. thing that you don't need. And he says things like you can let go of greed because you already have it all. I love that. You can let go of loneliness or you could never be alone. And you can let go of doubt because you already know. And I love that because intuition is you talking to you.

you get the signs, you hear the people. But there are things that happen to you where you go, I knew that was going to happen. Yeah. And that's in all of us. That's gifted to all of us. But I think because of the reasons you were saying earlier about the state of the world, people have lost trust in themselves.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. So how do we find faith in ourselves? I know we've got to wrap up quite soon, But how do we trust ourselves again? So when I started writing the book, I didn't want it only to be about grief. So I was thinking about loss in several ways.

And that is loss of sense of self, like loss of trust of your intuition and loss of purpose. And then during the pandemic, there were a lot of breakdowns of relationships, marital friendships, working relationships as well. And then I think it's about loss of connection to something great. So whether that's the planet, nature, environment, or something even greater, I think that could be different things for different people. So everything in the book is about reconnecting to those things. It's how to find your purpose, how to rebuild or like take your intuition to the next level, how to really like tap into your senses, how relationships work from a genetics and neurochemistry point of view so that you can hopefully that can help you to navigate, you know, relationships.

and community in a better way. And then at the simplest level, a connection to nature starts that journey of understanding that there's something greater than you, but also that you have something to contribute to the collective. And that is your power, right? You always have something to contribute. And it doesn't matter who you are,

or where you are or where you've come from, you have something to contribute. Yeah. Isn't it? Mm-hmm. Tara I'm going to end it there I'm just going to say thank you

wow man that's been like such a beautiful shared experience so thank you so much and I just want to say to you because obviously I do a lot of podcasts this was such a different conversation to one that I've heard with anyone good and I think it's very much down to you so oh good I'm really pleased I really loved it I love you I love what you you do. Thank you. Thank you. Let's please give Tara a round of

claws. Can I give you a cuddle?