Begin Again with Davina McCall - Elizabeth Day: I Found Love After Divorce

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, bestselling author and podcaster Elizabeth Day opens up about the deeply personal moments that have shaped her journey, from facing the end of a marriage to letting go of the dream of motherhood. Elizabeth shares how her divorce became a turning point, forcing her to re-evaluate her identity, desires, and the kind of love she truly needed. She speaks candidly about the grief and complexity of fertility struggles, revealing how she came to find peace and purpose beyond motherhood. The conversation explores the emotional weight of moving on, the power of female intuition, and the importance of holding space for ourselves and others in times of change. Elizabeth also reflects on rediscovering self-worth, dating in her 30s, and ultimately meeting her now-husband, Justin. Through her honesty and insight, Elizabeth offers a powerful message of resilience and self-trust, showing that sometimes starting over is the bravest thing we can do. 👉 Follow us on Instagram: @beginagain 🎥 Watch more on TikTok: @beginagainpod Elizabeth:One of Us by Elizabeth Day is published by 4th Estate on 25th and out now. You can by your copy here: https://lnk.to/OneOfUsElizabethDay?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAafJqQ3qrv8oajlu2PZrgFYrKgEEhAYCMsapPDFScLQy4spsj82in7NVVwPl5w_aem_nMEEzcYNX-PjK4NZQqhvWA How To Fail with Elizabeth Day is available every Monday and Wednesday on podcast platforms and YouTube: https://link.chtbl.com/hHntV5ys (00:01:12) - Introducing Elizabeth Day (00:02:20) - Growing Up During The Troubles (00:06:09) - Building Self-Assurance from a Young Age (00:08:24) - The Psychic Experience That Changed Everything (00:14:56) - Feminine Instincts with Davina (00:16:23) - Elizabeth’s Childhood in Ireland (00:19:17) - Fertility Journey and Letting go of Motherhood (00:23:13) - Lessons from Therapy (00:30:48) - Adobe ad (00:31:53) - Elizabeth’s Journey to Journalism (00:42:34) - Faking Confidence in London (00:44:42) - Why Reality TV is Important (00:47:21) - Facing Fear and Finding Safety (00:50:00) - Realising Her Marriage Wasn’t Right (00:54:45) - Dating and Finding True Love in Her 30s (00:59:45) - Building Elizabeth’s ‘How to Fail’ Podcast (01:01:59) - Davina’s Podcast Fears and Meeting The Rock (01:05:09) - Elizabeth Day’s New Book ‘One of Us’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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It's so painful feeling that you are in the wrong marriage. So in my 40s I've been really trying to lean into instinct. And then suddenly I was like, I need to leave. Wow. Let's go back to the beginning. Best selling author, great sense of humour, huge heart. Just sort of lost sight of my own desires. I had a period of feeling deeply unhappy.

I thought, I need to get out or I'm going to lose myself entirely. You know it divorces the right thing when you are paying. paying a price to stay, but you will also pay a price to go. Exactly. I'm like panicking because I'm staring down the barrel of my 40s with nothing in place. I had this yearning to be a mother and encountered so many obstacles and I'd kept going because I felt that I should. When I went through my third miscarriage, it was the worst one I've experienced. It was through a medium, wasn't it? Yeah.

That helped you navigate that time in your life. And she said, she gave me permission to let go. There was so much I really didn't know about you. And I love it when somebody takes on a new depth. I want to show you something. I am here with Elizabeth Day. I love this one. Honestly, the energy that Elizabeth has brought to us already,

you just, I walked in here and I was like, we could all feel it. You are a good soul. Tevina. No, honestly. Stop the interview right now. Let's just leave it. as that. Can I just have that?

I see you. One of my art biographies, on all of the covers of my books, just on my tombstone. Thank you. I feel exactly the same about you. You're not allowed to do that. Okay, but I have to do. So, so, you know, journalist, best-selling author, ridiculously successful podcast, great sense of humor, huge heart. Can't wait to kind of get to the bottom of you and your life. So thank you for coming on the pod.

you so much for having me on. I'm a huge fan of Begin Again and I'm a huge fan of you and I can't believe that I get to sit in this iconic chair with the cushions. I was like I looked at the chairs online. I was like, let me just look at the colours again so that I know what to wear so that I fit. It looks

really good. Okay, good. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely perfect. There was so much that I enjoyed reading that I thought about you that I thought, oh, I really didn't, I really didn't know this about you. And I think particularly when I heard about you moving to just outside of Londonderry when you were four years old, can you talk me through how that happened? How did you get to move to Londonderry? So I was born in Epsom in Surrey and

my dad was a junior doctor and his mother was born in Northern Ireland and raised there. And he applied for jobs all across the UK and he happened to get this job which was a major promotion as a general surgeon in Atner Galvin Hospital in Derry and so we moved out there when I was four which was 1982 and at that time it was a really intense time to live in the north of Ireland particularly as a person with an English accent which I was and still am because it was in the middle of what is still called the Troubles which essentially a kind of civil war and to speak with an English Jackson. First of all, you're an outsider, but secondly, in some quarters, you're also seen as an occupier. There's an automatic assumption that you're from a military family, which I wasn't.

And so aged four, that's quite a lot of energy to contend with. Yes. And not the wherewithal to understand how to express that you're not any of those things. Exactly. And didn't fully understand the context that came later. And so it was a very formative period of my life. And looking back on it now, I can see the seeds of what I do present day was sewn then because it made me into an observer because I didn't really like my voice. So I didn't speak that much because I didn't like my accent. And I never really picked up a Northern Irish accent because I felt that was fakery in some way. And it made me ask questions of people, both things that they would and wouldn't say.

I'm quite interested that you said that about not adapting the accent because it felt like fakery. Because generally speaking, when I meet kids or I see kids, or even when I went to Australia for three months when I was 18 and literally was talking in an Australian accent a week later, it's like a survival technique. But you didn't do that. And it was on purpose.

Tell me why. I find it really interesting too. And I've only really recently thought about why. And I think it was something to do with holding onto a core part of myself in that I had left behind my beloved grandparents and the world as I knew it. And it was very different than Northern Ireland. And, you know, it's gone through an immense amount that part of the world. And I'm so proud to be from there.

and I love going back, but it was also really tricky to assimilate. And I think there was just one part of me that was really stubborn. I was like, no, I'm still this person. And I think, again, that's become a guiding principle for me, that authenticity, truth is really important to who I am and how I like to operate in the world. And I think it's part of the reason I love you so much, even though we've met a handful of times, but it feels so much deeper than that

because I see that the same truth in you. I don't feel you're pretending. And a lot of people do and a lot of people do because they have to because life is tough. But there was some part of me that refused to do it. I think it's fascinating the journey to finding out who you are

or who we are. I'm still on that journey. Yeah. Still looking and understanding. But when you said, I am this person. And what's interesting, to me, it feels like you knew you were that person or who you were at quite a young age.

I really didn't. Right. And I find that so impressive. Yeah. Well, thank you. I find it impressive that you were able to blend in and survive in a chaotic environment. a lot of the time. And with me, it is quite weird, but I did know myself from a very young.

Weird, it's impressive. Well, that's very sweet. But age four, I knew I wanted to write books, which there are no authors in my family. It's kind of, it's a strange thing. What do you think it is? What is that? I think, I know I can talk about this because it's Tavina and it's begin again. I believe in sort of past lives and old souls. And I, I think, I know, I can talk about this, because it's stovina and it's begin again. and I feel like I've been here before. Yeah. And I feel as though my life and many people's lives is a process of you start off knowing yourself and then you lose that as you try and become what society tells you you should be and should want.

So during my teenage years, my 20s, I was like such a people pleaser. They're just sort of lost sight of my own desires a lot of the time. and what my own opinions were and what I actually wanted for myself. And now in my 40s, it's been this amazing and empowering process of rediscovering what was already there. Yes.

And finessing it and all of that sort of stuff and maturing. But it was there and I needed to get through all of the stuff that had built up around it to sort of get to the truth and the essence again. So you're kind of born with a knowing. I think so.

I mean, and I'm not saying that. in a sort of self-aggrandizing way. I don't read it like that at all. Okay, good. Because it's not that. It's just, you know, I, as you know, have gone through a long fertility journey. And two years ago decided that I wanted to let that go. And I am now fully at peace with not being a mother in the conventional biological sense.

And part of the reason I was able to feel at peace with that is because I genuinely do feel that in a past life, I've had experience of mothering. Yes, so talk to me about that because it was through a medium, wasn't it, that you spoke to? And she saw something which really helped you navigate that time in your life. What did she say? So this was a psychic that a good friend of mine had recommended. And she is based in America. And my good friend said, text her to make the appointment.

don't tell her your real name. And she was a very savvy friend. So I texted this psychic to make the appointment and I gave her, because I am truthful, I gave her my first name, my real name. I said, it's Elizabeth and I didn't say anything else. And this psychic said, okay, I'll call you at 7pm your time on a Wednesday evening. It was a phone call. She didn't even see my face. She couldn't have Googled me. And it was an extraordinary experience. The first thing she said was, well, you live. love words. And I was like, I do. I do love words. That is so me. And about halfway through this conversation where she said lots of other accurate stuff about my personal life, about my husband, does your mother have some neck pain? I was like, I don't think so. And then I checked later and

my mom had put out her back bell ringing. She was like, I'm going to see the osteosite about that. Wait, put the car in park, Elizabeth. I just want to just repeat that. Your mother does bell ringing. Yes. Love her. You would love her. But I love. I love. I'd read, you know, that your family is a bit bonkers. Yes. And that, you know, and now I know what you mean. You would love my mother. And actually, you really remind me of her in the sense that she's so beautiful.

Oh. And very sort of French. She's Swiss originally. Yes. And she taught you Spanish, didn't she? Yeah. We love that you know everything. We can't.

Oh, but I'm not quite quite couramon. It's quite coerroman, huh? It's quite. Oh my gosh, I'm loving this. I feel sexually attracted to you right now. Is that okay? Yes. It's reciprocated.

Oh, thank you. We fell in love on begin again. Yes. And probably in a past life, we have been lovers. Let's be honest. So anyway, about halfway through, the bell ringing and everything. Yeah. The psychic said this thing and she said,

I feel like you are grappling right now with letting go of a lifelong desire. And all I said was, yes, that makes sense. I wasn't asking her any questions. I deliberately didn't want to guide her anywhere. I said, yes, that makes sense. And she said, and I don't know if it's to do with children, but if it is, I have a very strong sense that you were a mother in a past life, and you were the mother of six, and it almost melted you.

That was her word. It almost melted you. And this life has been offered to you to live on your own terms. And that might be, if you have tried to have children, you might have experienced fertility issues or miscarriage. And when she said that, I was like, oh, so I totted up the number of unsuccessful fertility cycles, three. And then I've had three miscarriages, six. So I've actually technically been pregnant six times.

It was mind-blowing. And she said... I've literally got goosebumps. So did I. It felt so aligned with the truth that I had been avoiding in a way. Yes. Because I had had this yearning to be a mother. And I had encountered so many obfutable.

And I'd kept going because I felt I wanted to, but I also felt that I should. It's so interesting that. Yeah. And what that psychic did, and I'm forever grateful to her for it, is she gave me permission to see what it would be like to let that idea go. And it turned out that letting that idea go was incredibly liberating. And it doesn't mean that I'm not sad about it. I am, but I'm really at peace with it. and there are so many other ways that I'm able to create.

Isn't it fascinating when somebody sees you, and she didn't see you, but she sees you, and they give you permission to let go. And that actually you can't let go until somebody says, you know, you can let go. Yeah. And when that happens, you know, what does it feel? like? It felt amazing and ultimately what I come down to, I do believe that there is a spirit

world, call it what you like, call it universe, call it God, call it faith, call it something we can't explain, call it quantum physics, but there is something, there is some energy that is beyond our comprehension and that might not be for everyone and there are people listening to this who might not believe that. Either way, I'm so grateful that that gave me what I needed. And actually, there's something really important about that because no one else could have given me permission in a way. I needed someone who claimed to be able to tap into a non-human belief system, if that makes sense, like a beyond human thought process. Because none of my friends would say that to me in the sense that they love me so much. They,

They want to completely support me in whatever endeavor I'm choosing to do. Similarly with my partner. Similarly with medical professionals, they're like, well, we're here to support whatever decision you make next, but you have to make it. Similarly with therapists, like they're not the ones who are going to say you can let it go. And so actually it was incredibly helpful to me. And I have since passed or made appointments with that psychic for dear friends of mine who are going through massive challenges. And at every point, she has A, said something different. So she hasn't always started off with like, oh, you love words.

Yes. But B, she said something that has unlocked some power within them to see things differently. And there's something about that power of knowing, the instinct that we can tap in. Trust yourself. Trusting yourself. And women, for millennia, because of patriarchy, because of everything else, we have been sort of bamboozled out of trusting ourselves because actually it's so powerful. Is it something that's happened to you as you've got older?

Totally. Were you, so you had it when you were little? I think I had it when I was four and then I kind of lost it. Yeah. Probably from going to school and going into sort of institutions like that. And also because I was lucky that I did well at school. And so then that becomes external validation. And I learned wrongly to use that as fuel and motivation.

I just wanted more of that. and that can really divert you from your true course and your true in an owing. So yes, in short, my 40s, I think, I've been really like trying to lean in so much more to instinct. And launching my podcast was a huge part of that actually because it was just something I felt that I wanted to do. Just like popped into my head one day. I was like, I want to explore this idea because it's really exciting me. And I like being in that sort of fluidity of not having a five-year plan anymore. Yes.

Just sort of instinctively saying, no, I like that. And I'd like to do this if I can. This is so, I'd like to go back to the beginning because we've covered so much ground. You're welcome. Let's begin again. Because I want to talk a bit more in depth about this little girl who knew herself. there was something that you did obviously you're in Derry

I've got such a nice picture of you I'm imagining this little girl she's a bit quiet because she doesn't want people to hear her voice so what are you doing if you're not talking reading I read a lot I spent a lot of time in my imagination

I explored a lot like actually literally explored Ireland has an incredible countryside lived in the middle of the countryside it was unbelievable So beautiful. So beautiful. We had a donkey and four sheep, cats. I love animals. So actually, in answer to your question about the little me, I found a lot of my peace and happiness being with animals. And I have that still. I think we're so lucky to live in a world where we can have animals. And I'm obsessed with my cat now. So that was who I was, someone who lived a lot of the time in her imagination. And what was your sister like? Were you close?

Did she do that? Was she very different? I would say she was different. Like she was an amazing older sister. There's four years between us. She had asked for a baby sister and then a baby sister appeared and she was very protective of me.

But she was much more sociable than I was. Like everyone thought, everyone loved her. She was really great with little children. she was beautiful, sort of fair, good at everything at school. Whereas my perception of myself was I was good at maybe a couple of things. I really leaned into that and leaned out of the stuff that I wasn't good at. And I was quite a sort of stubborn child. And it would be quite hard to get me to do something I didn't want to do.

And I found it harder to make connections with other kids. What's interesting as an adult, you could probably now see. that as somebody who is quite a people pleaser and you knew yourself. Wow. It's quite an interesting take on that and sometimes I think older siblings allow a second sibling to be themselves because they're busy being the entertainer

over there but you can be who you want to be. Absolutely and I much prefer being the youngest. It's a gift. It is because she had done all of that I got my ears, who's got tattoos, everything and I feel I'm much free hearing that. So I'm very grateful. And now she's got two daughters and it's really lovely seeing that dynamic play out

and being an aunt is just one of the great gifts of my life. It is a blessing, isn't it? Being an auntie. It is. It's a real treat for an auntie. I love it. And I'm really happy for other people to have their journeys with parenthood.

And I also will have the experience of being a grandmother of sorts Because I bet I'm going to get to know your kids, kids. Yeah. And I've got stepchildren and I've got God children and I've got nieces. So there are lots of children in my lives and around me. And I feel fine about it. What should you do? If somebody hasn't got to where you've got to where you know, look, I'm taking responsibility for help.

But you are still in the journey of really wanting to have a baby. Yes. And it's been very difficult to get there. How would we deal with it if we were good mates? Yeah. We are good mates, by the way, just like you. Thank you so have you. My best friend was incredible throughout my fertility day.

Oh, she? Yeah. And she has two kids who are two of my godchildren who I love and adore. And she had this really good phrase, which was about holding the shopping. So emotionally it's like you don't have to do the shopping. I promise you I'm going to land this metaphor. No, can I just say I can already feel that this is going to be a takeaway for a lot of people. I hope so. Thank you.

Yeah. Go. So it's not about having to do the emotional processing for your friend. Yes. It's simply about signaling that you are there and that you hold space for them. You are holding the shopping. In your shopping bag are all of these emotional resources and all of your favourite biscuits. They're here for you when you need them.

And actually the best thing is to be guided by your friend. The worst thing is to say nothing. If you have that kind of friendship which is already close, you not saying anything is not going to make them forget it because they're thinking about it all of the time. And so actually simply saying, I'm so sorry that you're going through this challenge. And I don't know why you've been sent this challenge.

It seems really unfair. But I do know that whatever happens, something meaningful will come from it. and I love you and I'm here for you and I hold space for you and you can guide me as to what you need and when. What you shouldn't say is either you will never know love like the love you have when you have a child. And that's really, really obsessing to hear.

And also it can be obsessing if you're like, oh, well, having children is a nightmare, by the way. So you're better off out of it. Yes. Those things are so extremely. And actually they're unhelpful for other parents too because it's quite an isolating. thing to say. Because if you don't feel that, then you feel that you're in the wrong. So I think it's

just that idea of holding the shopping. And actually, when I went through my third miscarriage, it was during lockdown and it was the worst one I've experienced. And because it was lockdown, we couldn't go and see each other. And I remember my lovely friend Bet and her wife, Chenade, and Bett just texting saying, what shopping do you need? I'll pot to Tesco for you. And she and Sheenay did that. They put all of my favourite things in a shopping bag and they left it outside our front door. And I waved at them from the window. It's making me well up as well.

And that for me is just one of the most generous acts of love. The thoughtfulness that goes into that and the lack of requirement on you. Yeah. It was beautiful. No demands are made of you. Exactly. Exactly. even when someone texts and says,

I'm thinking of you, no need to reply. Yes. When you're going through it, you must have had so many experiences, I hope, of that of people showing up for you when you were having your tumour removed. I think it's asking someone as well like, what do you need me?

Yeah, what do you need for me? I am, yeah, can I just say that's so helpful what you've just said and this holding shopping. I'm always rather interested because I kind of... Michael and I do this for each other, this idea of holding space, but it's quite a confusing concept for somebody that doesn't get what that means. Could you just kind of explain what holding space for someone is? Yes, thank you for that question.

You're so right. Because as someone who has been in therapy for five million years... Me too. I often do fall into that kind of therapy speak and you're right. It can sound sort of vague and abstract and difficult. Essentially, what it means is understanding that your loved one is going through something. You do not have to have been through exactly the same experience to show empathy for that. It's about understanding simply that they're traveling through a part of their journey. And it's about, what you can offer them that would be helpful, both for them, but also what you feel is natural to you. So an example I can give actually is that one of my very close friends a few years ago, her father died.

And I felt so useless. And she called me up. I was one of the first people she called. And I said, what do you need? Do you need me to come over? She said yes. And I just dropped everything and went over. And I just was there.

And I worried when I was just there physically that wasn't enough. I was like, why am I not the person who knows how to make a lasagna and can like bring it around? And like, why am I not the kind of capable sort of World War II Women's Institute type who can put together a rotor of care packages and people? And I was like, I just, I'm not that person. and after a while I spoke to my therapist about it and my therapist was like well maybe she called you

because what she needed was not that I was just going to say that's such a brilliant thing isn't it that you were exactly what she needed yes she loves you and she does

and I love her for that and subsequently she said that to me herself and so sometimes it is literally just about physically being there you don't have to cure anything you don't have to solve anything I know that it's

so difficult to see a loved one in pain, but you don't have to fix it, just being there and holding their hand or holding the shopping, or making the lasagna, if that is you, all credits you, by the way, I wish I was you. Just those, it's about being present. I loved what you said about not fixing. Someone's got to go through something. They've got to go through it. You can't take it away from them. Now, that is a lesson that I only just learned. Isn't it great? Yeah. It is. And if you look at If you're listening to this and looking at your own life, I know that you would have been through many challenges to get here. You will have survived 100% of your worst days.

And I can all credit to you and your strength for doing that. And that was your suffering to get through. And you got through it and it shaped you. And my belief is it's made you stronger. And it's probably given your life a lot of meaning in many ways. And so actually when other people go through challenges or suffering, it's awful and I wish I could take it away from them and at the same time you can't

and it is part of a journey that we can't fully understand and to try and shape someone else's life and control it is not love. I mean that is the truth. Yeah. Because basically you're taking away progress. Yes, you are. I mean, I should say caveat, there are so many global injustices and so much horrendous pain in the world.

And where we can, we have to show up and be active in that fight. But global is different than a personal. That's what I think. Yes. So if someone's going through a personal pain. Because don't you feel like sometimes when you don't go through something, it's unfinished business, it's still in you? You've not let it go. It's actually probably the thing that has most harmed me, kind of being in denial about how I'm actually feeling.

And again, that goes into all of that social conditioning we were talking about, all of the people pleasing. I lost track of the fact that sometimes I was angry, but I would feel it was sadness or would manifest a sadness. And it's because I didn't feel able to access that anger and still be lovable. And one of the greatest gifts that my now husband has given me is I always worried that my emotions were too much and that I cried too much and was too upset or too sensitive about things. And he has been so wonderful at fully accepting me with all of those aspects. So I feel able just to have a good cry and not to be judged by him. And that's so helpful. And as a result, I feel more able to feel.

I feel more able to feel. And that's part of growth too. It's interesting about anger. Isn't it? Isn't it? It's a really difficult one for women. It's hugely. I think.

You were saying it comes out as sadness. Yeah. And I wish I could be angrier in some ways. Yeah. I wish when people say something mean or do something cruel, I wish that my response was anger rather than when maybe they have a point. And then feeling really sad and lonely and having to go through all of that process again to work it out. I was thinking like there would be space in the world for,

an anger release chamber. Yes. A soundproof. Nobody can see in, maybe we can see our room full of soft, like a padded room, full of things that you could like, a padded cell.

You want to be in a... That you could scream in. Yes. And no one can hear you and hit things and throw things against walls and but you can't damage yourself. Yeah. You are safe to release

Cracken. Like all of it. Yes. They have those anger rooms. They have them in the States where you can just go with a baseball back and like smash stuff up. Yeah.

It's always on the real housewives. It's a massive real housewives trope. But I would want to do it on my own. Yeah, of course. Because otherwise... You'd be on your own in this room. Otherwise people are looking at you. Exactly.

Yeah. Feels inappropriate. Yeah. In some way. You are never too old to learn something new. I used to be so terrified of tech, but I started using Adobe Express, which is the quick and easy create anything app. And it's one of our sponsors too. And I use it to tell my story my way.

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Get the data you need and keep everything working together. So you're ready for whatever's next. Learn more about their customizable plans at squareup.com. back again to you as a child because one of my other favourite things that you did was at 12 years old you started applying to local newspapers or just newspapers in general around Derry. To be a youth journalist that they needed some kind of youth representation, somebody young, to write an article. And I was like, what gave you that idea and where did that come from? I love 12-year-old you. That's so, you know, from going from the little girl who just didn't really speak,

your sister was like, I'm here, I'm going to sing and dance for you, and you're like nothing to writing to all these big old grown-up newspapers and saying you're doing something wrong. You need me. Yes, I know. It's wild, isn't it? First of all, thank you for making me feel so seen at every single stage in my life Because that's such a beautiful gift.

Oh. Thank you. Well, I'm so impressed. So age four, I decided I wanted to write books. And one of my great privileges is that I grew up in a household full of books. And my parents read to me and my mother taught me to read and write. And so I loved books. I just knew I wanted to be part of that.

By about age 12, I was like, well, I need to know how to write. So I need to somehow train myself how to write. And it seems like there's this job, which. which is journalism, where you can work for a paper. I mean, I'm old enough to remember watching press gang. It's got a niche cultural reference, but it was absolutely amazing. Dexter Fletcher. Yes.

Heart throb. Wow. And so I knew that journalism existed. I was like, I should become a journalist first. And after that, I'll know how to write and then I can write books. But even that is an amazing thought process. I was so desperate to be grown up. I just wanted to be an adult out in the world and not have to go to school and have my plan in place.

And, I mean, basically what you're doing is mega manifesting. Actually, now that I understand more about what manifesting is, I think you're right. Yes. Yes. And it worked. Yes. I sort of imagined myself into it. But we in, so we lived about half an hour outside Derry, just outside a little village called Claudia in the middle of the countryside.

And one of the magical things about living there was that half a mile down the road was Northern Ireland's only health farm for many years run by our friends, Alfie and Claire Danton. And I need to give them their props. Big shout out to Alfie and Claire. Big shout out to Alfie and Claire because they really encouraged my dreams as well.

And they knew that I wanted to write and they had a journalist staying at Raspberry Hill Health Farm once. And they called up my parents and said, would Elizabeth like to come and meet this journalist? And that's how it all started. I got to meet this amazing woman called Linda Gilby, who did me the great service of taking me seriously. She was like, okay, you want to be a journalist, you should start now.

And you should write to local newspapers and start writing for them and ask for a job. And so I took her at her word, and that was exactly what I did. And then I was given a chance by the editor of the Derry Journal, Pat McCart. This wonderful man. who was confronted with this strange English child, who was dropped off by her mum in her Nissan one weekend to have a kind of chat about what I wanted to write about. And he gave me a fortnightly column that ran in the Derry Journal for about two years.

And I'm forever grateful. Yeah. I mean, that's mega. Yeah. He's retired now, but I am forever grateful to him. I mean, he must look at you and just, well, for starters, that he saw something. you. Yeah.

There's something kind of really beautiful about that. Very. To take a young girl in what was at the time really male-dominated area. A young girl give her a seriously kind of important role in his newspaper. I mean, God, like... It was huge. Huge. And then, by the way, didn't have a column for another, like, 30 years.

It's a really prestigious thing to have a column on a newspaper. And I pitched it to him as a children's column. I was like, I should be your children's columnist. And very quickly he saw that what I was writing wasn't, it could be entertaining for anyone. So the only reference to my age was in the byline and it would say by Elizabeth Day age 12. But isn't this amazing that you were writing already then in a way that your age was not important? Wow. Yes.

or it was like a source of rye amusement because I was, it's so interesting looking back because I feel like I had quite strong opinions about things as a 12-year-old and then for the rest of my life I sort of lost those opinions and now I'm such a big believer in nuance. Yes.

But I had opinions about sort of unsurious. Well, you weren't afraid of what people thought of you. That's what it was. Davina, you've nailed something that I've really not understood for a long time. That's so true. And also because it was such a different culture. There was no internet.

There were no online comments. I was just writing what I wanted to write and free to put it out there. Yes. You're so right. What was your favourite piece that you wrote for them? What really set you on fire?

The one that I remember is my first one. That's the one that I remember the most. And I feel so apologetic about it now because it was about it was a particular time when Australian soaps were incredibly massive massive and I used to rush home from school to watch neighbours and home and away and it was at a time when a lot of soap stars were releasing music because the path had been forged by Kylie and Jason yeah yeah amazing and so I wrote this very opinionated piece about why soap stars should just stick to what they're

good at and why they shouldn't release music poor old Stefan Dennis who's now on strictly had a go at him, I had a go at the twins from neighbours. I was like, who did I think I was? It's so funny now. But at the time I was like, no, I love Australian so much. You need to keep creating these. But yeah, I want to show you something. We're going to talk about this a little bit later.

It looks so good. A little bit later. I'm talking about that a little bit later, but I want to show you this. How did you get that? How did you get that? It's my team. I love my team. A present.

No, stop it. That is wild. Oh, look. Oh my gosh, I am age 13. I've been there three years. I'm embarrassed. You got the one about Lasson. How did you get this?

My gang are really amazing. Honestly, my team here, they are. They're really special. They wanted to get that for you because they weren't sure if you actually, or when you'd seen it, like, I don't know. Do you know what's so special about this? I kept them all.

Yeah. And then recent, right, a few years ago we had a flood in our home. And the plastic binder in which I put these was one of the things affected. And I had to take out each like scrappy piece of newspaper and dry it. And so to have this, it's like, oh, we're so pleased. Well done, gang. Thank you so much. I feel like that bit on Jay Maguire.

You know when he does the interview and he's like, you got me. It's like, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry. This is, have you read these? Yes. Oh, my God. Honestly, it's such an insight into you.

Well, I just, I've already, I think, you're a very accomplished writer. Like, you feel confident. Oh. And you feel like somebody, this is, this is where I thought you're unafraid to just speak your mind. And how different a 12 or 13 year old would be now. And how terrifying it is in this present day to say exactly how you feel. Yes. And how sad that is in a way. So sad.

We have, I've definitely, we're not talking truthfully about how we feel about anything because it's not safe anymore. And we're all banging on about freedom of speech, but actually nobody's free to speak. Yeah. And that's a big thing. It's, you're so right. I'm, if I'm speaking in a public setting, I'm always analyzing what I'm saying as I'm saying. It looks. And it's also because I don't want to hurt anyone through choosing my words in a misguided way that can be translated wrongly as malice or lack of thought. And I do think we live in a society where it feels as though unless you are showing that you're doing something, you're not actually doing it.

Yes. So it's like we take what we see online as the whole truth. And actually there are so many conversations that are happening offline. And there's so much work that is happening behind those curated Instagram grids and so many relationships that are being forged out of the public view. And that's where real life is being lived. And we have to remember that. And it's funny because I think people in later life understand all of that.

But the poor kids nowadays, it's really hard to navigate. It is. It's why I do love a Gen Zia. I love Gen Zee. Partly because the 90s are back, but without as much of the toxicity that you would have experienced at such a heightened degree. And I experience just a little of like just being in that culture, but not with a public profile. But I love 90s fashion. And I quite like the fact that people aren't vaping anymore and Marlera likes are coming back.

Yes. Although I shouldn't say that. But Gen Z have so much more awareness of self-worth, how important it is to say no to the things that aren't for them, so much intelligence about how to live life that I feel like I'm really proud of that generation. Yes. And I hope that they're going to save us.

Yes. This is sorry. I know we take you seriously, but I can't get over this. Yeah, well, we wanted to get you something to, I don't know. We thought you didn't do it. But I just also want to thank my gamut. because they, you know. I'm going to ask them a lot of questions.

Yeah, yeah, do it, do it. Amazing. Thank you. It's our pleasure. It was really nice to see you see that. It was lovely. That's amazing. Yeah.

So you talked about not actually having your own column for 30 years after that. So at what age did you start working in London? I started working in London at the age of 22. So I had a gap year between school and university. And then I did work experience with lots of newspapers around that time. And one of them turned into a job at the evening standard. London's diary. London's diary.

London's diary. Yeah, I love it. You could still smoke in the offices. Mad, right? Madness. So funny. Still smoke back row of the plane. Oh my gosh.

The stuff that we used to do. And that taught me so much. was living in London as a 22 year old in a house share in Clapham and loved it. I loved it. The Londoners diary taught me so much about pretending to have social confidence and because they used to send me to all of these really glamorous parties, this sort of unknown journal and I had to try and get some gossipy tip bit for the next day's paper. And the only way to do that is to pretend that you're not nervous and that you're not highly anxious and neurotic and bowl up to someone that you recognize from the celebrity pages and ask them some kind of question and engage them in conversation

and say this time from the Londoner's diary and how are you and it was terrifying but it taught me a lot about the fact that confidence is something you can fake and then it becomes a muscle that is real yeah do you know i spent my life telling my kids you've got to fake it to make it And it felt kind of counterproductive saying that. Like I'm asking you to fake something and then it will become real. But confidence is that thing. Yes. And I learned that in a similar way.

Like I had to, if I wanted to get into telly, I would have to be ballsy and do something. And it was cringy. But do I want it or not? Got to do it. Can I tell you something? Oh, my God. So I think you already know that I'm a huge reality to you. TV fan.

Yes. And the early seasons of Big Brother and season one of Big Brother changed the culture. It was, I remember

backpacking around Tunisia during a uni holiday and finding internet cafe so I could log on and see what had happened.

And my mum was watching it and then she sent me an email being like nasty Nick has been writing letters is writing the names that people

you want to nominate and I just remember you being so phenomenal as that host but also the person who did the interviews afterwards. But the other show that I always think of, I think of actually an embarrassing man, is streetmates.

Oh, I love that show. You were incredible. I love that show so much. And if anyone hasn't seen it, it's unbelievable. You used to bowl up to strangers on the street and match them romantically. Lots of people thought, oh, it was produced. Like, you would know who you were going to talk to. I would arrive in a city not knowing anyone or anything.

and we would start the day and it would mean that sometimes we'd finish work at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and another time when I went to Dublin I stopped a man in Dublin and he happened to be gay and I said I'll take you for the rest of the day

and we'll go and find you a guy to go out for dinner with tomorrow night but it's hard being in Dublin and asking anybody in a tight t-shirt if they're gay and I was like I'm going to get punched in the face soon

I was like we're going to have to go to bed this afternoon have a little disco kip and let's go out cruising tonight so we went out cruising in Dublin to all the gay clubs and got him a date that way but what I loved was the freedom of it you never knew what you were going to get

so thank you for saying that I loved that show I love that show but it's also testament to you because in that situation you are sort of dropped in the middle of a city street and you have to go up to people and you have to forge a connection instantly so you have to bring a certain kind of energy

that makes someone feel feel comfortable enough to open up as to their romantic prospects. And you were incredible at it. Oh, thank you. And my best friend who I mentioned earlier about holding the shopping. Oh, yes. We used to watch it at uni. We shared a room together.

And there was one particular date, and I can't remember who it was. But there was a woman who was like so unbelievably keen and just wasn't playing it cool at all. And streetmate is still a code between the two of us. But when we feel like one of us, we're slightly, we're embarrassing ourselves. Too hard. Try hard. Yeah. We just say it's a bit streetmate.

It's a bit streetmate. My God, this is amazing. You're amazing. You know what I was thinking when you said you just bowled up to people and talked to people, it's interesting how. What's interesting is how sometimes the most challenging things in your life are the things that show you how to be empathetic. We were talking about this earlier. So my mum was a very difficult person. and it's thanks to her that I'm good with people.

Yeah. Because I used to read her all the time. As an alcoholic, you walk in the room, you go, who are you today? Who do you need me to be? Yeah. Okay, I'm going to be that person. Yeah. So when I meet somebody on Street, mate, I think, okay, I know what you need from me.

Exactly. I'm going to kind of make you feel comfortable by being who you need me to be. And it's a gift. It's a beautiful thing. And I don't have that experience of alcoholism, but I do have experience of someone close to me who had very unpredictable moods and you get used to identifying what the atmosphere is going to be

and to shape shift accordingly and as you say that's an extraordinary gift and sometimes it can lead you too far in the opposite direction and in my experience like I got into romantic relationships well one in particular that was not good

for me because I was still doing that sort of shape-shifting. Right. And it wasn't yourself. Exactly. Okay. It was all about what they wanted or what I thought they wanted and not upsetting the equilibrium because anger terrified me. And that's why I find anger difficult to access in myself and I'm deeply conflict avoidant.

Why do you think anger terrified you? Because it's so unpredictable. And because it's unpredictable, you never know if you're. if it's your fault. And if I never knew it was my fault, I would tend to assume that it was. And so then you feel bad about yourself, but you also feel really scared

because you're out of control of what you don't know what's going to happen next. I remember speaking to Rick Astley about his childhood and he experienced that with his father. And he said this thing about how he would almost know

when his father drove his truck up outside the front of the, he could almost tell by the sound of the truck and like how it was being driven what kind of day his dad had had and how Rick would have to behave accordingly so it's not to trigger him anymore. Yeah. I want to, I do want to quickly dip into, I feel like I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about your fertility journey, but I would also like to talk to you about divorce. Because in terms of begin again, yeah.

And I don't need you to go into too much detail because I know it's a very personal thing and I don't want you... Yeah, you don't need to reveal personal details. But I just feel like there might be a lot of people watching or listening that just something is not quite right in their marriage and how frightening it is to divorce and what a big step that is.

And I just wondered what that was like for you. you've been married twice. Yes. Well, I'm, yes. I'm with my second. Yes, you're not. Yes. Made me sound rather fabulous.

Yeah. Jacques, Jagabour. Yeah. It's so painful feeling that you are in the wrong marriage. There is no loneliness quite like it. And I think many people understandably are terrified of being on their own and of taking that step and of ending a relationship. But what I would always say is that. the loneliness your feeling as part of a couple is the worst kind.

Yes. Because you feel sort of alienated from the person who should be the one to make you feel loved and safe and secure. And my experience, which my caveat is I didn't and don't have children. And so obviously divorce is much more complicated in many ways if you do have kids. But I am a firm believer that kids are so adept at picking up on at least. on truth. And if their parents are unhappy and if those parents can manage to co-parent better separately, then I do think that you're actually doing a really great job as a family by getting divorced. And in terms of when you know, it's so individual. And for me, I had a period

of feeling deeply unhappy but not knowing what the source of it was and actually not even really knowing that I was deeply unhappy, I felt numb, really numb and sort of slightly out of it. And thank goodness I had some key friends who could help me navigate it. And in the end, I realized that part of the process was going to be allowing for it to happen. And what happened was I allowed my body to take over. So I realized this wasn't going to be an intelligence thing. Like it wasn't, I couldn't mentally think my way through it. I had to allow myself to feel it. And then I got to a stage where suddenly, it felt suddenly, even though it had been gradual, I was like, I need to leave. And it just happened. And it was an instinct, a primal, bodily instinct

that took over. How old were you when you left? I was 35. So you heard yourself then? Yeah. Loud and clear. And it wasn't, it was. It was like that gut. You got to go. Yes. That's what it felt Like it did feel like it came from my stomach and not my head. It was like, and it was sort of automatic. And then I just like went through the moment. And I wasn't thinking six months down the line. And I wasn't thinking, you're going to be in your mid to late 30s and you're going to have to online date for the first time ever. I wasn't thinking any of those things.

It was like a safety. For me, it was like an emotional safety thing. I need to get out or I'm going to lose myself entirely. Yes. And so that's what I say when people are worried about not knowing whether it's right or what to do. I promise you trust the process and your body will tell you. Someone once said to me, divorce is one of those things where you know it's the right thing when you are paying a price to stay, but you will also pay a price to go.

Yes. And you don't get to not pay a price. That reminds me of something that Monica Lewinsky said on how to fail. Just because you live with regret does not mean it was the wrong choice. you can always feel sadness for the life unlived for the thing that didn't work out but it doesn't make it a failure and it doesn't make it a wrong choice

the fact that you were married and I was married I'm so grateful for what that taught me and you are obviously we wouldn't be who we are like we wouldn't be who we are and all of those things a marriage is not a failure

just because it ends every lesson that you learn is preparing you to function brilliantly in the right relationship Yes. Every failed relationship is preparing you for a love that is worthy of you. Yes. And it won't come probably in the package that you expect. No. Well, I love the fact that you were about to move to another country.

Yeah. And you, I mean, what were you thinking? Wasn't it like days before you're about to leave? Yeah. Tell us the story. So left my marriage at first marriage at 35, got divorced at 36, got into a new relationship. I didn't think that quickly, but looking back, I suppose it was, with a really lovely younger man who wasn't at the same life stage as I was. And we broke up just before I turned 39, at which stage I'm like panicking.

So you were thinking children at that point. Exactly. And that's what it was. I was like, I want children and now I'm staring down the barrel of my 40s with nothing in place. At what time did you think, right, I'd like to have some kids. How old were you roughly? 32. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of, I think that's probably the same time as I felt. And it was like a biological bang.

You see, that's so interesting because I don't know if I experienced the biological. Oh my God. I was like walking like. Yes. I think it was more, this is what I should be doing. And it's what I've always anticipated that I would do. And I don't mean to make that sound like I didn't want it enough because I really did. Oh, no. And maybe it's because I was in the wrong relationship. Yeah, maybe. And there was that slight internal resistance that I didn't acknowledge of myself. But anyway, I started online dating in my late 30s.

And if anyone's listening to this and you're in that spot now, I really, really feel you. You're not alone. I know it's a hellfire out there. I know it's got worse. But I also want you to know that there is hope. And actually, I started understanding that the process of going on these dates was teaching me a lot about myself and what I'm. want and didn't want from a relationship.

So how many online dates did you do? Was it quite a lot? Like, were you just trying, were you finessing your choices? Yes, I suppose I was. And I did some real life set-ups as well. I mean, probably about 12, maybe. Yeah, it doesn't sound that many.

But it's like a full-time job, because then you have to have to have the banter and the texting. And then there's the ghosting, and then there's like, shall we meet up, shall we not? Anyway, I had six months of this. And then I matched with someone on here. hinge, which back then was a new app. And this guy didn't have the greatest photos. And was sort of consistently in touch with me, which by that stage, I was so used to emotional

fuckwittage. I was like, what is wrong with him? Wait, wait. You just made out the best word. Emotional what? Emotional fuckwittage. Fuckwitt. Yes. I think it was coined by Helen Fielding and Bridget Jones originally. Okay, good. So there was just so much of this gameplay and suddenly here was this guy. and he was texting me every day and I was like, weird. You just tell me what? Whirdo? Who is this like weird, emotionally stable, enlightened person?

Oh. And so I didn't think I wanted to meet him. I was like, this is just too much. It's too much, Davina. I need to have someone who's scared of commitment. You can never fully lean into love. Way too healthy. Yeah.

And after two weeks of this texting, he was like, Elizabeth, I'd like to meet you. And these are the options. I was like, oh, masterful. So he gave me various options. And one of them was a cocktail. I was like, okay, I'll meet you at 5pm on the 28th of March and I'll need to leave at 7. Invented something I had to go to because I'm only giving him two hours.

Yeah, well done. And I had such low expectations for that date that that morning, it was a Thursday morning, I was like, I am going to move to L.A. Full time. And I booked my flights that morning. So of the morning of you before you met him, brilliant. Brilliant. I was like, I just need to get this date out the way first. And so then I walk into this hotel bar

and there's this distracting me handsome man sitting by the window and I was like, is that? And it was Justin. And because Justin is very handsome but he's also just not at all vain. And he doesn't know it, right? He doesn't know it. So good.

He doesn't think I'm telling him the truth when I tell him. He had not put photos that reflected how good looking he actually was on the app. Clever though because when you see him you're like, wow. Honestly, it's like the opposite of catfishing. Yes. It's like reeling you in. He knew what he was doing.

Well done, Justin. It's dog angling. It was what it is. And that was Justin. And thank goodness I went on that date. Because he's now my person. And I, he is, I'm speechless. You know, he's someone, and I know you have this with Michael.

He is so fully supportive of my success. Your cheerleader. Yeah. He doesn't feel undermined by anything. And he's super successful as well. And I hope I do the same for him. Yes. To meet somebody that's confident enough in themselves.

Yes. That they can absolutely applaud you. It's a lovely, lovely thing. Yeah. And I also think that there's something important here about the culture where in the UK, particularly, we are not great at cheerleading people who do a good job. No, we're not. And we're especially not great at cheering on women who do more than one thing. Yeah.

We just can't get our heads around it. So I am a podcaster and I write books and I'm really passionate about both. But for some people, I think that's quite difficult to understand. But I just feel invigorated and stimulated by lots of different aspects of life. And so I want to explore lots of different aspects. And I know that you're the same. Are you doing a podcast workshop? like a kind of like masterclass.

Yes. Talk to me about that. Yes, because you had lovely Mel Schilling. Oh! She loves you. I know the two of you are like... You two doing a how to date. That's what we did. Podcast is like beyond.

It was amazing. It was basically like I want to put work into the world that I would have liked at the time. Yes. So I would have loved an eight week boot camp, which is essentially what it is, a loving boot camp. I call it a podcast master class.

And I would have liked eight weeks of Melchilling telling me what to do. And that's what it is. She and I both met our husbands online. So we present it and we have guests every week who talks to some aspects of dating. All the usual platforms.

All the usual podcast platform. Okay, great. There's also a website that you can go to thepodclass.com. Which has lots of free downloadable resources. I also produced an early one called How to Write a Book

for anyone who wants to explore that. It's specifically sort of towards women, is it? Well, yeah. So my production company is specifically devoted to elevating female and diverse voices. So it will always be presented by a female or diverse voice. So yeah, brilliant. It's like by women, for women.

And, you know, enlightened men too. We welcome them. I like calling them allies. Yes. Our allies. Our allies. Yeah. Exactly.

And they're always confident and settled and know themselves. Exactly. Yeah. And they love women. Yeah, we love them. That's the other thing. Yeah. Don't we?

Mm. God, Elizabeth, I feel like I need to come back and do kind of part two, like, so do I don't want this to end. I don't want this to end. And I know I've asked you countless times to come on How to Fail. You know it's an open invitation. No, I feel like. Whenever you want.

Do you know. Whenever you're ready. I feel like I am at an age now where I could come on. I went through a phase in my life where every podcast I went on, I would say something and I would, it would turn into something else. Yeah. I remember you're picking up. I remember like when I got divorced, I'd done a podcast with Joe Elvin

and I ended up having to deny going out with The Rock. That's iconic. It turned into a thing. It turned into a thing where Dwayne the Rock Johnson ended up kind of talking about me. That's amazing. On this morning going, oh yeah, I've heard about DeVina. I mean, it's so embarrassing. But it's because I said on Joe Elvin's podcast that,

I DM the Rock because I love him so much. And I told him that me and my son, Chester, we think he's the greatest thing ever. And I was going, imagine going out with the rock. You could use pickaxes to go up his thigh to get to his chest. And then just at the top, you do a shoulder press, like, pull yourself up and you go like that. And that turned into me dating the Rock. He's married. It was really dark.

I had to like, I had to deny it. I'm so sorry. So for years, I was like, I'm not doing any podcast because I've, cannot be trusted. Have you ever met The Rock? Do you know what ended up coming out of that? I must come on your podcast because I should tell this story. Do you know what happened? Tell me. Greg

Jane from Radio One. And there was like, listen we've got a funny thing to do here. We've got Dwayne the Rock Johnson coming on the breakfast show and I was like yeah and he said we want to FaceTime you get you and Dwayne the Rock Johnson to play rock paper scissors. Amazing. Amazing.

See what I mean? Yeah. See what I was doing there? rock paper scissors together and we did that and it's on YouTube and my son was just off camera here with tears in his eyes because it was like I had tears in my eyes it was like Dwayne I love him

he's a good soul he is such a good person He's met him I've never met him but my cousin is actually knows him I feel like he's a good man He's such a good man And were he not married

He would 100% date you But who won? God, but who was embarrassing? I just got to say I won But what was really funny Was that he was like you cheated And I was like I've done

We just He was good at banter as well And considering I was just The embarrassing midlife lady Who was trying to deny That I was going out with him It was embarrassing I was in Australia

And they went It's made the papers Front page news I'm so so sorry Can you imagine? So that's why I didn't do podcasts for a bit. That's the best excuse of it. I'm ready.

Okay. I'm ready. Well, let's do part of you then. Brace yourself. I can't wait, my darling. I can't wait. But your latest book, so how many does that make? Seven.

Ten. Who's going to? Well, this is my sixth novel, but there's four nonfiction. Okay. And tell me a bit about this book because it's out now. Everybody can get it. Yes. One of us is about rich people behaving badly.

So if you liked the talent of Mr. Ripley or Succession or Brideshead Revisited or Saltburn... Which let's face it, we all did. Yeah. The OG House of Cards. Reality TV, I believe it's all in here. Yes. And essentially it tells the story of Martin Gilmore, who's an outsider who for years has been secretly in love with his male best friend.

And something happened at university. They had a massive falling out. But now, years later, he is invited back into that family fold. and they are a very aristocratic privileged family. And Ben is on course to become the next Prime Minister. And it's about what happens next when Martin tries to wreak his revenge. So, because this is, I'm taking this. I hope that you'll love it.

And do you know what, Damina, you've actually inspired one of the characters. It's nothing like you, but it's the first time that I've written a fictional woman going through perimenopause. Oh, really? And I wrote it because I was going through it when I was writing it. And because you and through all of the work that you have done, have given us all permission to explore that and to open the conversation. Yeah. Serena. She's having hot flashes and everything.

But that's, you don't hear of that. No. You don't really read fiction. As a character trait, and it's actually such an important part of who you are at that time. Exactly. You know, it shapes you. Exactly. And she's struggling with like what her identity is because she's going through that transition.

I don't recognise myself anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I hope you love it. I know I'm going to. Thank you very much. I can't wait. And I'll be texting you relentlessly while I'm reading it as well.

Oh my God. Don't so, stop, thank you. No, I will. I will, I will. Thank you. Thank you so much. I've loved this. Yeah, me too.

And it's really going to help a lot of people. Everything that you've talked about has been amazing. You're so, the way you interview is so. Oh, my God. Why? But it's like all seeing. Oh. Thank you.