Begin Again with Davina McCall - Everything You Need to Know About The Menopause!

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, journalist and menopause campaigner Kate Muir opens up about her personal journey through the menopause and midlife crisis, revealing how these experiences have shaped her life and work. Kate discusses her groundbreaking work in menopause advocacy, from writing her book to challenging societal taboos around women's health. She shares her own story of navigating the emotional and physical challenges of perimenopause, the impact on her relationships, and how menopause became a driving force for change. Kate also dives into the science of menopause, exploring its effects on the brain, memory, and Alzheimer’s risk, while emphasizing the importance of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) and testosterone. She reflects on the emotional highs and lows of midlife, including her divorce, dating at 54, and finding her true self. Through her powerful activism, Kate is helping shift the narrative on menopause, encouraging women to embrace it and reclaim their vitality and self-worth in midlife. 👉 Follow us on Instagram: @beginagain 🎥 Watch more on TikTok: @beginagainpod (00:01:28) - Kate & Davina: Shifting the Menopause Conversation (00:04:09) - A Guide to a Magnificent Midlife Crisis (00:04:58) - The ‘Menodivorce’ & Midlife Crisis (00:10:18) - Hormonal Rage & Shame in Perimenopause (00:11:16) - Rewiring Your Brain: The 3 Ps (00:13:42) - The Mental Health Toll of Perimenopause (00:17:01) - Menopause Hormones & Alzheimer’s Risk (00:22:51) - Hormone Therapy & Testosterone for Women (00:29:56) - The Economic Cost of Menopause (00:32:42) - New Science & Menopause Myths (00:38:39) - Adobe Ad (00:39:13) - Midlife Crisis: Grief, Divorce, Therapy (00:44:20) - Building Self-Compassion in Midlife (00:46:30) - The ‘Vagibiome’: Dryness & UTIs (00:52:06) - Kate’s Affair & Midlife Dating (00:55:39) - Finding Love at 54 (00:57:45) - Kate’s Journey to Her True Self (00:59:50) - Davina’s Gratitude & the Miracle Scan (01:01:56) - Synthetic Hormones & The Pill (01:07:05) - Why Male Contraceptives Don’t Exist (01:08:22) - Kate’s Activism (01:09:46) - Kate’s Lifelong Championing of Women (01:10:28) - What’s Next for Kate? Sponsored by: Adobe - http://adobe.ly/Davina  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Nice travel. When I met you, you lit a fire in my belly. You have been fighting Women's Corner your entire life. If I get run over by a bus tomorrow, I should be pleased that we did this work. Today I'm chatting with the incredible Cape Muir. Someone who knows exactly how to turn life's toughest moments into something really powerful. I feel that I've been given a second life. She talked to me about her midlife crisis and how from pain comes growth.

Very stupidly, I had an affair with a married man. It was about me being looked after, being loved by someone. We talked about how menopause played a huge part in all of it, and the exact steps that she took to start feeling like herself again. One in ten women are leaving their jobs because of menopause symptoms. I had those peaks of madness, which were not like me, and that's when I started. Kate shared everything about why so many women are left in the dark. during one of the most powerful transitions of their lives.

Why is no one having this conversation? These women have done so much suffering with our periods and our childbirth. This is only a little bit of suffering added to the top. Kate's story is a reminder that it doesn't matter what you've been through. It's never too late to begin again. Kate Muir. Oh my God, I'm so happy to have you here. I feel like you have massively.

Not just changed my life, but I was just telling all the girls at the team here that the work that you've spent your whole life doing has made all of our lives better. And I never feel like you get enough credit for that. But you are the OG. You know, you wrote a book about menopause way before I did. And you have been fighting our corner, women's corner, your entire life, I think. Well, I feel we've done this together. Yeah. Well.

You know, you just coming on board when we had the idea about the menopause dogology and rocking it and exposing yourself in the way you did saying, oh, at 44, you know, I had symptoms. I had hot flushes in the makeup chair and, you know, mentioned vaginal dryness on telly. I mean, that changed so many women's lives when we talked about mental health. Yeah, it was mental health and virgina. And so, you know, if I get run over by a bus tomorrow, I should be. pleased that we did this work that we talked to women that, you know, a million more women are on HRT and than were before this all. And it was lots of people, not just does, but lots of people came to tipping point. Wait to hear about it. I am just so, I'm going to talk about this

now. Good. So how to have a magnificent midlife crisis. And I love the fact that this is the book that's come now. I mean, I guess you've had your midlife crisis. Very much so, yeah. And it's safe in a way to look back on it now as something you've been through. Yes. Yes, indeed. And you are going to help other women go through theirs because it is specifically really women's for women. It's not just a toolbox. I think of it as a large handbag with lots of different things in it. And you know, it's got a digital detox. It's got hormones. It's got longevity.

It's got how to avoid Alzheimer's. And it's just got how to throw all your toys out of the pram and kind of see what happens. And for me, I regretted some of the things that happened quite seriously. Like getting divorced and moving out to a flat and leaving their family home. That was massive. And I, you know, the pain of you think you break up from a person, but you break up from a family. Yes. And much as I'm with my.

kids again, my adult kids and we're having a great time together, you're just sad that that institution, and you must feel the same as me and some of that institution no longer exist. Although that institution like all institutions was not perfect anyway. But that said, I feel that I've been given a second life and a second adventure and indeed a second husband. And, you know, that has just been, I just feel really, really. lucky, you know, that just in the tide of trouble has come this positivity as well. I think you talked about a big change and the pain. And, you know, there is a knowledge now, really, that life is suffering. Like, we all kind of understand that this idea of everybody

being happy all the time and living a perfect life, it isn't achievable. And you shouldn't really want it to be achievable because suffering makes. the wonderful moments better. Yeah. If we just felt wonderful all the time, it would be boring. Yeah. But leaving a marriage, which, do you know what the stats are on divorce? Well, they peak around 44 or 45 in perimenoport.

Yeah. And when kids are a certain age, and, you know, there is this new word meno divorce. And, but it is the time when, I mean, I think, you know, our loving mommy hormones go down, our, estrogen is going down and up. And that's the other thing. So we're both sort of having these hormones taken away so that we see everything clearly. And it's all very, very raw.

Suddenly we don't have those soft progesterone moments helping us to sleep at night. And we wake up and think, I'm going to do something about this. I'm angry. I'm going to change this. And I think one of the big things for me that sort of was a catalyst for this story was the perimenopause. The perimenopausal sex, so as George. So when your hormones, when your estrogen goes to these huge peaks in perimenopause and then suddenly falls a day after.

And lots of women experience, you know, this real kind of last minute out-of-the-box moment in their sex life. And at the same time, you mean, you mean a really strong sex drive, right? I certainly. Like a real boost in testosterone. It's like your body going, this is one last time. I think it must be. Get as much shagging in as. she can.

I don't know, but it certainly explains those kind of midlife affairs for women and why. And it's also, I think we've worked so hard raising our children. We just, for those of us who've had children, we just can't see beyond that. And that's all that matters. And you do it and you get on with it. And suddenly when you don't have to get on with it, and, you know, emptiness syndrome is a word they use, but it's your nest and you're flying out of it. and one way or the other, you need to leave that nest too.

And I don't mean getting divorced, but you need to find a new life, find new friends, find a new career, find a new adventure, travel the world, whatever it is, or, you know, start a charity. Just you need to do a new thing with that second half of your life because you've been a carer all that time and you don't have to be a carer anymore. You are free to create and do. And one of the things I've written about in the book is the sort of creative renaissance. And one of the people in it is, of course, our friend Karen Arthur, who was in our first menopause documentary together when we were still wearing COVID masks.

And, you know, she talked about her menopause and she's set up menopause whilst black Instagram and your most amazing campaigner and presents. And she's such a positive, she's such a positive energy, Karen. That's what I love about her. She's all about wearing colours and brightening up kind of people's lives. And when you meet her, you immediately smile because of the colours that she's wearing and her energy. She's a gift. Yeah.

And that she went from being a teacher, that she walked out and had a job in a hot flush in a depression, got therapy, changed her life, eventually got HRT, but eventually, eventually, and then ended up being this amazing fashion designer and far more than an influencer, she's a changer of the world. Yeah, she is. And so I talked to her for the book. And really, you know, menopause was just a switch that switched her in the other direction. But we don't know who's turning the switch when it's being turned. Why it's, you know what I mean? It's this mystery moment. But it is, I think, really important. And I'm thinking, you know, our kids' generation, they know what's

coming. They know perimenopause. They know what hormones do. They're just going to, they probably won't have a proper crisis. Actually, having this kind of midlife crisis. crisis in a way is essential to a smooth path post. Yeah. I mean, just to go back to anybody that isn't quite aware of when does Perry menopause start, how long can it last for? Could you just give us a rough quick synopsis of the Perry and the meno? Yeah, I'm not a doctor. No.

I've interviewed a lot of it. Yes, as you have. So Perry, any time in your 40s, but earlier if you've got early menopause, And hormones are really hopping around and changing throughout your 40s, menopause at 51. And those particular hormones, it's the fact that progester, which is your calming, you know, sleepy, lovely, you know, makes you lovely mum hormone, it's just going straight down like that, tanking it. And then estrogen is going up and down on the roller coaster. And at that point, I must say myself, I threw it, I'm not an angry person.

and I threw a number of things against the wall in the kitchen. And I, you know, I had three kids. I had a mum with Alzheimer's complex relationship. And I chucked broccoli, a butter dish that broke with all the bits of butter and china in it. A butternut squash, blue poster paint, and a copy of Nogela's Christmas at the wall. At all different times over a number of years. And I only realized looking back that those peaks of madness, which were not like, me and sort of calmed everybody down because somebody had exploded.

That was it. That was the hormones doing, and we've heard about this, the rage in my head. And actually, now that we've taken the rage and turned it into a political rage, this is political. Yes, it is political. And we've, of course, we've been to Parliament a lot with this. It's been really worth it taking that sort of boiling. kind of neat to change things, which we were expressing domestically, but now we're expressing kind of internationally.

Well, it's quite nice to have somewhere to take it. Yeah. You know, I hear a lot from women publicly. I did a talk the other day, and I talked a bit about rage and how a shaming or shameful it feels to display that when it's not really you, you said yourself, I'm not that person, I'm not that person. I don't really get angry.

I'm quite easy going. But God, when I got angry when I was perimenopausal, the shame I felt straight after, bang, fury, ugh, get in the car, crying at the steering wheel, just, and then just going, I'm really sorry, this isn't mummy, I didn't mean to, you know, because I was out of control. Yeah.

And I'm never out of control. control. Yeah. It was so frightening. Your brain changes, and that's one of the big things I talk about in this book, that your brain changes three times in life, and it's the three peas, pregnancy, puberty, and the other puberty, perimenopause. And literally your brain is rewiring.

And if you're not taking HRT, which most of us are not at first, your gray matter is going down, so your big computer in your brain is going blue. And it goes up again later on. But, you know, the white matter, all that sort of connective motorway in your brain is going down. And that's when you go, oh, it's the film that I saw last Wednesday that had Quentin Tarantino in it, but I can't remember. And, you know, it's all these kind of really, you know, rotten pathways in your brain. And I think one of the things I certainly realized was when I lost my own memory and I couldn't remember a domestic noun, you know. And can I just say, because I know you, you are fiercely intact.

You were a journalist at the Times for 30 years, foreign correspondent and God knows how many different countries. You are one of the smarter women I know. It must have been very hard for you, Mrs. Memory Box. You know, quite frightening, right? Yeah. Yeah, and I was just like writing, I'd been forgetting people's names and I thought, that's when I was a film critic. But then I forgot, I was writing a shopping list that must shave my legs. And I wrote down the word shaver. and I thought definitely another word for the thing in the bathroom.

Yes. And I couldn't remember. I remembered 15 minutes later it was called Razor. And that's when I rang all my friends. And that's when I said, I've got Alzheimer's everybody. What are we going to do? That's exactly what I thought. But really, I was so scared because my mum had died of Alzheimer's like the year before.

So it was totally in my head that women of a certain age lose knowns, very slowly cover up for themselves. My mum really smart, you know, been a, you know, a personnel manager and volunteered at the Citizens' Advice Bureau, proper person. And suddenly, her losing her nouns, you know, I was really aware,

and I thought, oh, that's me, this is going to happen to me. I've got Alzheimer's. And, you know, you just, it's really, really frightening. And then I rang all my friends, who'd got HRT privately and had, you know, because I've been to the doctor twice, and that hadn't been of any use, and I'd have heart palpitations and all that. Lots of menopause symptoms.

And you'd put me through your symptoms that you had just because, again, it's quite helpful for anybody watching or listening that might kind of go, oh, you know, you've just mentioned palpitations. Lots of people don't know that heart palpitations are a symptom of me. Huge. Our survey, which we did, as you remember, 44% of women get heart palpitations in perimenopause and menopause as hormones. I had it. Flutuate.

So your hormones are going up and down. And the electricity in your body is going haywire, your heart goes a little bit haywire. It's not going to kill you. But oh my God, you're so frightened. And it happened to me all the time at 4 in the morning when my estrogen or whatever was at its lowest. And I'd wake up panicking, that anxiety at 4 in the morning. And my heart doing the Tom and Jerry. Yeah.

I mean, literally. And I got all these, you know, tests on the NHS, which must have cost them a huge amount of money. And they said, you're absolutely fine. You're drinking too much coffee. I was like, I always have two cups of coffee. This is not different. What, you know, and then I got HRT privately, because I didn't get it off the NHS at first. And of course, my heart palpitations disappeared within a day.

They just did not come back ever. And within about a week, I was remembering all the words I wanted to remember and all the faces and all the people. And then a few months later, I got really, really angry. and I began to think if I, as middle-class investigative journalist, have ended up having this struggle, which has sort of created a mountain of pain for everybody around me, what about the people who are not being informed, and what about the mental health aspects of menopause? That was huge for me.

I thought it's not the hot flushes, it's the fear, it's the Alzheimer's, it's, it's the memory, it's the depression, it's the anxiety. It's the anger. Yeah. So the mental health thing, which I think in that first documentary, when we had women going, I think I'm going, I thought I was going crazy. I just didn't understand. I was a changed person. And I think the mental health thing was the one thing that really talked to women out there. And I'm really proud we did. Yeah. I also feel that it's such a lonely place. It was that we all felt like. No one else knew what was happening.

And no one was talking to each other because we were all embarrassed to be in this place. Even when you talk about shame, there was this big ball of shame we were pushing away. Yeah. Kind of in front of us, weren't we, all the time? And now that that's not the case, but you talk in other countries. And, you know, I'm doing the European Space Agency menopause talk. And you've got to go in and talk quite differently because they are not. talking in the down-to-earth, honest way, that we are talking.

And they want science. Yeah, many parts in space. But, you know, it is really interesting in Europe and elsewhere that the conversation has not exploded. And it's so important that we continue doing this. And I also think in terms of sort of longevity and long-term health, there's a whole new thing that I'm thinking about now and reading the science on, which, you know, I wrote about it in the book too.

I mean, we touched on, you've talked about your mum, having Alzheimer's. And so just to give people a bit of context, when we were filming our documentary, and we were talking to Lisa Moscone, who's the most amazing neuroscientist from New York. Is she from New York? Yes, Italy. Italy, but then she lives in America. And she's doing amazing research into the brain. and perimenopause and menopause and hormones.

And I was going to interview her about what she'd discovered and the day I was going to interview her, my dad died of Alzheimer's. And it was such a, you know, it was such a mad, mad thing. But so I was always, I've always been nervous and afraid of getting Alzheimer's. As, you know, we know it can be a genetic kind of gift that, relatives leave you, but also our hormones pay an enormous part in our brain health. And HRT recently, there's been new science that's come out, new research. Could you tell us a little bit

about that? And I know that you're not a doctor, but I know that you have interviewed. So I'm just giving you a little. I've talked to Lisa Mascone and Dr. Roberta Brinton, who are the two big brains behind thinking about hormones in the brain. And when we were doing our documentary, we were showing those pictures of the brain pre-menopause and post-menopause, and you could see literally the change in the energy level in the brain just by looking at it. And I think that visual sort of told us a lot. Lisa Musconi's book, The Menopause Brain, is terrific. And quite simply, estrogen helps your brain work.

Estrogen is really good for protecting you against neuroinflammation. And it just, and by also keeping you. in good health elsewhere in your body in terms of sleep, in terms of relaxation, in terms of ability to exercise, that whole package helps prevent you getting Alzheimer's. Now, it doesn't work completely for everybody. But what we have is a huge study of the American database, which has got about 400,000 women in it. And Dr. Roberta Brinton, who's been studying this for 30 years, then found out that if you are on HRT for basically any decent length of time, even five years, you're 58% less likely to get Alzheimer's. And if you're on it for six or more years,

you're heading up to 79%. Can I just park the car there? Just for one moment. That is nuts. Yeah. And I feel like that is not out there enough. I still feel like. I still feel like, There are so many people that have no idea about that statistic and that's why it's so important what you do. I call myself an amplifier and I really think that you're the same, that you know all the experts and you amplify their message. And how valuable that is because that is, you know, how many women are out there feeling like we did that they've lost their memory. They can't even find the neural pathway. But also being a carer, as you know, for someone without a worst thing. The sort of thing that nearly broke me was, and I wasn't there all the time we had carers,

but occasionally it would all fail and I'd be up there feeding my mum in hospital because she didn't want to feed herself anymore. And when your mum thinks you're her mum, I mean, it's absolutely awful. And if I can prevent one person going through that and their kids going. through that looking after them, then that's really, really important. And I don't think it's necessarily as simple as just estrogen. Eestrogen isn't a cure for Alzheimer's and a testosterone may have a part and progesterone may have a part. But what we know is another statistic for you, women who go into early menopause are 35% more likely to get Alzheimer's. So what is missing in

their lives? Yes. That there's 25 years or 20 years or whatever where they're high and dry with no hormones. And the hormones mean you sleep and you don't get hot flushes. And people who sleep four hours a night like Margaret Thatcher are more likely to get Alzheimer's than people who sleep eight hours a night. And that's basically your brain doing the recycling. So it's the whole health package, but hormones are part of getting you into that package. And not everyone can take hormones. And if you can't, then you're working really hard on your health and exercise and your diet like McDonald's diet

or, you know, burgers and milkshakes, you can see in the brain scans of the diet of someone who's been eating ultra-processed food and you can see the Mediterranean diet

with fiber and vegetables and olive oil. They are different brains within months. Yes. And so the ultra-processed brain we do not want, you know,

and we want hormones. So I think the Alzheimer's thing is huge and two-thirds of Alzheimer's patients are women. Why is that? Because of estrogen. Because we run out of hormones first and men are hanging on to testosterone until they're about 80 quite often. And we have nothing.

And that's why we suffer this more. And we only notice as we live longer that that's what's happening. And we can make a big difference just by talking about it. And I've been talking to Alzheimer's research who are really. beginning to take an interest in all this. You mentioned testosterone there and men sort of, they do a very, very gradual decline and we're kind of plummeting. There's something quite big has happened in the UK recently regarding testosterone and

being able to get a licensed testosterone for women, hasn't it? Could you just explain what's happened? Well, there's the testosterone, we were all using the male testosterone, those of us who could get testosterone. as part of our menopausal hormonal package. Just for clarity. You did. I did. I did. We've got it. So there's a new pink tube.

It has to come into a pink tube. It's called Androfem. Yeah. And it looks like toothpaste, actually. And you can just square. Well, you just need a little pea-sized blob. And it's fine or you can measure it out very carefully. But you get the exact amount. It's very hard to measure out the males.

Very hard. And getting it right is great. because guess what, we have not grown a moustache. No. And I love the level of fear mongering around testosterone. I think it's hysterical and incredibly old-fashioned and incredibly set in its ways. Even from the high end of the medical establishment, the medical establishment. I mean, you know, this is a hormone that we've got recetors for all over our body.

Yeah. And especially in some places like our brains and our vulvas. and, you know, the idea that it's just been there as a joke for all these years, and it's not an essential female hormone. I mean, you know, do the maths kids. You know, it's like they're almost unable to see the kind of building blocks of a female body. And they're talking about it as a fun, extra full libido. And indeed it is, but someone who's had a libido, you know, without it.

But it is really interesting for brain, for muscle. I feel when I, and I remember you saying to me, sometimes I've got a big meeting and I put on a bit of tests. What did you say? No, basically. What I, I had, my libida didn't suffer too much. But the difference that happened for me when I took testosterone was I got me boss bitch meat back. So I walk into a meeting and I remember three months after I started to. taking testosterone.

I walked in and I was like, hi, sit down, sit down. I'd prepped. I sat down. I knew what I was doing. I knew what I wanted to say. And I was like, I thought, oh God, I felt like I had disappeared. That thing that women say when they have perimenopause. Yeah.

When they go, I don't feel like myself anymore. Yeah. I've lost something. Yeah, I'm invisible. I'm invisible. I don't feel joy anymore. I can't, what? Yeah.

I'm just gone. And I was like. Oh, I'm firing on all cylinders. Yeah. That's what I got back. And it was the missing link for me. And I mean, I know that's dangerous saying that because it's not always that for everybody. Yeah.

And if you don't get low test on, mine was quite low. Yeah, I'd not. And it did make a difference because it had dropped so much. Yeah. And once you get your estrogen and your progesterun sorted, it is as simple as a blood test to see if you need it or not, right? Yeah. And also the amount of testosterone we're talking about it. I mean, you're making it sound like superpowers.

It's what you would have had when you were 40. Yes. So there's nothing shocking about this, but there is this huge fear out there in the world. And, you know, it is part of our next little bit of liberation is liberating our hormones and the truth around those sort of hormones. And I think also, you know, I mean, if you take it correctly, you don't get any side effects because like you said,

you're just revisiting where you were at when you were 40, 45. Yeah. So it is available, but not on the NHS yet, but the cream is available in the right amounts. And hopefully the NHS will take it off. And there are some amazing doctors out there, who are fighting everywhere for us and talking about it and really, really thinking.

And then there's a sort of institutional fatberg of people who just want to keep everything the same. And there's a sense also that. The idea that HART is a kind of, you know, happiness juice that we just do for our skin kind of thing. Yes. You get a lot of that. People say, oh, yeah. Do you take it to look good, didn't it?

No, we don't. We take it to feel good inside and look after our brains and look after our muscles and look after our bodies and look after our thermal regulation. Yes. And the idea that this is a decadent little extra rubbish. Well, it's insulting. And it's slightly treated still like that by the medical establishment when the question should be, I think, why are you not taking HRT? And I absolutely understand because I've got lots of friends with breast cancer,

what they're doing and why, and it's really complicated. But for the majority of women, this is so protective, transdermal HRT now, the safer kind, the body identical. That goes through the skin, doesn't it, transdermal? Super safe. and you know why not have it back why have a creaky

older life why be sad you know why struggle and I'm really interested in osteoporosis because this is huge and I suddenly realised

we did a big campaign called Give Your Bones a break where we wandered around with skeletons and things like that and did a lot of daft stuff but you know simply this I want to tell the government

can we can we do this can we trap where's street here for five minutes and tell him, yeah, we'll do that. So we need to tell him, one, you know, the majority of osteoporosis patients are women. Why is that? Because the hormones run out. What happens at menopause? Well, whereas our hormones go down by 20%, 10 to 20%, our bone density goes down by 10 to 20%. And that's when women start breaking their wrists at 60 when they trip over. And that's when people start needing hip replacements.

And that's when, you know, they start dying of terrible injuries. And we don't need to do it. Hormone replacement therapy in all these big studies, you can get around 7 to 10% increase in bone density, start early, protect early. We can throw our zimma frames away. Why is no one having this conversation? Why are we giving women drugs after they break a bone?

Why are we giving them dexter scans after they break? It's daft. I mean, it's just silly medicine. And they could save billions a year just by getting women on HLT early, particularly those at risk. And we're not doing it. And it's just a no-brainer. You know, hormones make bones, end of, government, listen, you know. I mean, and you talked about the cost, right?

And I think it's also really interesting to look at the. economic cost of heri menopause and menopause on women and Britain. And it's fascinating because women leave the workplace, women leave schools, nurses leave their profession because they just can't cope. The cost of that is so huge. And with just a little bit of support, it's that women are shamed. about taking hormones still now. I can feel it often.

If I say to somebody, at every talk that I do, and I'm sure you get the same thing, have you thought about taking HRT? No. It's like literally that kind of embarrassment. Oh no, I wouldn't do that. And we've got to change the story because not only would it be better for them,

but if people, if the government want to think about it, the amount of money. I mean, can you tell us a little bit about, in the workplace even? So the statistics are, one in ten women are leaving their jobs because of menopause symptoms and that's a survey of 4,000 women around Britain, all different ethnicities and economics. So it's a huge thing. And also the very places that women are leaving are things like the police, the health service, and they can

get pensions. They've worked their time. They'll get their pension. They'll leave. And you lose a nurse at 50, you know, that is a genius of value, you know, an experience and knowledge. And you cannot replace her with a nurse of 22, great as that is. And the cost is just extraordinary. And we treat people so badly. And I mean, I've been in hospitals talking to nurses and they can't get a menopause appointment in their own hospital. And you think, this is so stupid. You have just thrown, you know, hundreds of thousands down the drain by not listening to this one woman who is saving lives every day. And that's, you know, it's absolutely got to be called out all the time. I think as a really smart woman, you must see solutions everywhere and it seems insane

that people aren't doing it. I mean, how frustrated do you get? It's odd that I'm not running the government. Yes. But I completely feel that, you know, you can see very clearly, and we've discussed this with menopause mandate, if we put HRT and this hormone conversation about longevity into the 45-40-something doctor's appointment that you go in to get, that would cost nothing and really maybe change a lot of people's lives. And it might stop hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people getting Alzheimer's and osteoporosis and, you know, diabetes. Because I feel like so many women don't even really know about it. Well, the doctor's appointment.

Yes. You're supposed to get one around 45. Yes. But I don't remember getting one. I didn't ever have it. And you're supposed to be told everything about, you know, your risks of osteoporosis and high blood pressure and diabetes and all those things and said, why don't you take more exercise, etc., etc. But hormones and menopause was not mentioned in it. And I don't think they've changed it yet.

And it would be a very simple thing to do. And we have this huge resistance. And I just think it's because this knowledge isn't out there. And I love the science because the science is a joy. Because every time you pick up a book or a new paper, it says, wow, we can stop this. We can protect this. We can help this. We can lower the chances of diabetes.

This is all new, isn't it? I mean, when we did our documentary since then, we were kind of cow girls talking about, like, Take HRT. And actually a lot of what you were talking about has been proved right. Yeah. Well, the science was there. Just people didn't know enough about it. And actually, there's even older signs that looks really good.

But it was mostly on the old synthetic HRT. It was basically like ultra-processed food. And now we've got the goods, kind of fresh, organic food, in terms of copies of our own hormones. Yeah. And the medical establishment, the NHS, are still getting those. two things muddled. You know, plastic apples, real apples. And, you know, it's that simple. And I ran it all through AI the other day for a piece I was writing. And guess what?

What? Chat GPT. Doesn't know. Can't tell the difference. Well, it can if you go into incredible detail. But if you ask chat GPT about HRT, it says it will give you blood clots, here are the risks. And of course, we know that the kind of HRT, the transdermal kind, is like WD40 in your veins and is actually preventing you getting sort of vascular problems and things like that. And it carries no risk of blood clots. And yeah, so basically there's this bulk of old evidence. Imagine how many people are asking CHAPGBT. And the other thing, you just ask the basic question, you know, is it safe to take HRT?

Well, you know, well girls, no, because history tells us, you know. And that is what we're up against. So we're up against a whole new level of trouble. And also because people only go to that one kind of Google answer, perplexity answer, whatever it is, they don't look any further because they think, oh, that's right. And, you know, you go through it and you think, oh, well, wait a minute. So I'm really worried about that.

Yeah, the other thing that is terrible is how many women are so frightened of hormone replacement therapy and they're getting the symptoms and how many private doctors or people, not, don't want to, I don't want to kind of vilify or villainise private doctors, but some people will kind of come up with loads of other illnesses and things that you can, syndromes and things that you can have that will keep somebody in a cycle in a, well, like, no, no, no, I haven't got that. I've got this. I can't take hormones. Yeah, yeah. And actually, they could take hormones because somebody said to me the other day,

oh, well, I can't get the bio-identical or the body-I-donical, H-R-T. I'd have to go private. I said, no, the gold standard hormone replacement therapy that you get is on the NHS. But people don't know that either. It's like, and we've been doing this, you've been doing this for five years. Five years. And it feels like it's so slow. I know.

I know. Yes, three things. Let that rage. come up. It's the post-manipausal rage we're seeing here. So let's, let's, we've done that. Yes, sorry. But what we would, what we would like to, no, never apologise, Kate Muir. You are amazing.

Oh, good. So we've talked about HRT and we would, if you can, we would highly recommend it to help it. Do not wait until it gets so bad. Why do we do that? English, British women are like, I'm going to wait until I really, really need it. I know. Why suffer?

I don't understand it. And I think it's because we've done so much suffering with our periods and our childbirth and, you know, you've written all about that. We've done a ton load of suffering. This is only a little bit of suffering added to the top. And absolutely, this is where risk begins. Suffering is a risky time for us. And it's not just keeping calm and carrying on. It's keeping calm and getting sicker.

Yeah. I think it's very important to make that clear that. You really need to stop looking off yourself. This is actually a time when you do need to craft yourself the minute the symptoms start, start thinking about what you're going to do. And you need to do the other stuff like exercise and weightlifting. Yeah. We love weightlifting, definitely.

Anything like that. And just not eating any crap. Yeah. Bit of crap. A little bit. But mostly not. Yeah. You are never too old to learn something new.

I used to be so terrified of tech, but I started using Adobe Express, which is the quick easy create anything app and it's one of our sponsors too and i use it to tell my story my way it's about impact kivina yes did you mean to export this poster of michael to such a large size as i was saying it's never been easier to bring your ideas to life yes just checking these stickers that say ready to wait they're also for you two yes those are for me merchandising is an important revenue stream. I work with Stephen Bartlett. You know, I'm an entrepreneur. Look, whatever your business, side hustle or random, oh, I've got an idea moment is, Adobe Express gives you everything that you need to design it, share it and make it real.

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and still spacious enough for weekend getaways. While available 4-motion all-wheel drive gives confidence in rain and snow. The capable Taos, you deserve more confidence. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUV, German engineered for all. So, obviously, in a midlife crisis,

perimenopause, menopause is like the foundation of the crisis. But what other things do you think trigger a midlife crisis? You're talking about divorce rates and grieving. And I like the way you talked about grieving the loss of a family unit. And there's something about menopause that's also grieving. I think a crisis, a lot of it is around grieving. How did yours hit? Oh, I suppose, I mean, my mum died of Alzheimer's and like you.

And let's give her a name check, Ella Muir. Elam. Fantastic. And I've only really come to terms with thinking about her and sort of 10 years on after she died. Because at the time, you know, that slow death, that living grief that you sit with, with Alzheimer's, you lose someone bit by bit by bit. And I remember realizing that she had Alzheimer's properly. And, you know, people repeat stories and they're getting old.

And I came back and I flew up from London and I stayed with her. And I said, I'm just going to go and wash my hair. And then I came back out again after I'd done it. And she said, oh, you're here. I thought, oh, no. She didn't realize I was in the house from 10 minutes sort of before. And a couple of things happened like that. And I went to the pub with my friends in Glasgow.

I got absolutely hammered. I got so hammered. I couldn't take the bus home. And I got in the taxi and I cried all the way in the taxi back to my mum's flat. And, you know, that was the moment I lost her, you know? And you must know that too. And it's the same that moment when you realise that part of them is just dying in front of you. And it just makes me so keen to talk about it and do anything you can for the other people

who might have the APO-E-4 genetic variant, the inherited Alzheimer's. So I suppose that that happened and that was grief. And then, you know, also, I think you can't almost get divorced when your parents are still alive and the minute they're not. You know, I couldn't have dealt with the two at once.

Yes. But in a sense, I could, you know, I just had run dry. There was nothing left. You know, I was keeping walking and talking, but actually I was just empty. And I was empty for about three years, I think. I lived by myself and sort of rebuilt my life.

I bought an old house and did it up. And, you know, a lot of, I think actually rebuilding your life and almost rebuilding a home. And rebuilding yourself. Yeah. And this home is you. It's not someone else. Yeah.

And I think that's a big thing for women who get divorced is to go, even if it's one room, but it's their room. Yeah. and there's no one else telling them what to do or what they want. And I think it's really good to be on your own for a while. I mean, you were too, weren't you? And it's kind of cleansing. How old were your kids?

My littlest one was 15. So that was really difficult, really hard on her. And I really regret that. Although we're actually much closer now than we might have been in a way. But it was, yeah. That's the interesting thing about the calamity. I was saying that yeah

for I think every experience doesn't matter how hard it is as a place for learning and growth yeah and depending on how you deal with it you know obviously you dealt with it well and it's meant that you've become closer because of it yeah well they dealt with it well too

I'm really proud the way my kids dealt with dealt with it too and in a very kind of graceful way in the end which was extraordinary and you know my ex-husband dealt with it in the end in a very graceful way too and that is like oh few you know that's you come a long way

when you get to that stage and obviously being Scottish never talked about myself or my feelings a Scottish Presbyterian and obviously psychotherapy a stupid idea that only weak people did and then a friend of mine in San Diego said to me I went for a walkie style

I think you should probably get a therapist and he recommended a friend of a friend And then she was fantastic. And she was really feminist and really tough. And she said, do this. Write a letter. You know, she didn't just sit there going, how was your childhood? She was like, she was my kind of therapist.

Was she the first one you tried? The only one. Well, yeah, I've got couples therapy. One should never go to couples therapy. It's just hell. But the actual, my own therapist, I went for 18 months. That's amazing. And you found someone that was right straight away.

Because I feel like if you don't get that feeling that you've got, try again and again and again because if you see a therapist, that's exactly how you should feel like they get you. Yeah. And she just talked me off the tree, basically. And, you know, one thing that she really did was making me feel more self-compassion, which I was very bad at and we all bad at. And she'd say, well, you know, you did quite well and you're done with that.

You know, it's okay. And I was like, oh, yes. Sorry, I wanted to reach out to you, but that's a really, but yeah. No, we've got to be kinder to ourselves. And I hadn't, I just hadn't seen a lot of things. You know, you can be quite good at listening to other people's stories, which is what you and I do all the time, you know, and drawing them out and having the conversation.

But you're just funneling that, but you don't, you couldn't do it to yourself. What happened to you? when you found more self-compassion? I'm just happier. I'm more relaxed. I really, really, and I have more time for other people who have had a lot of crap. I can see where they're coming from much more clearly,

I suppose. There is that sense of, yeah, I know where you are and I know what you're. And also, I think talking to midlife women, I mean, often I'll go into an office and do a menopause talk and then I'll meet someone afterwards and be having a coffee. And they'll just tell me their whole life story.

I'll tell them the whole life story. And then we'll talk about vaginal gyrness together. And, you know, it is just, it's lovely. And we're completely honest and we're completely direct. And it's as though we've known one another for 40 years. And I think that is what being smashed down and then rebuilding kind of does to you. And that you all really appreciate that you are all kind of rebuilt people or rebuilding people, we're always rebuilding.

And I love that. I love this community. It's like my second wave of feminism after my kind of baby student wave of feminism. And I love these women. And I love being among them. You do anything for them, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we do.

It's just, and that has been a fantastic thing. I do just want to touch on vaginal dryness because it is something that people are still embarrassed about. And I didn't really have massive problem with that at the beginning, except I was getting a bit sore when I wiped myself after going to the loo. Like there wasn't enough, like, liquid, or I didn't have enough sort of discharge to wipe.

And I was like, oh, it's a bit sore. But when I started taking HRT, it kind of made it a little bit better. But interestingly, it's about 50, 51. I noticed quite a big difference. Yeah. And I intercourse was a bit more painful. And I thought, oh, I know exactly what this is. I'm going to go and get vaginal estrogen.

And it is amazing. I talked about reopening your shop in menopauseing. Yeah. Because no one, even somebody now we know, with, but you should always talk to your oncologist, but it has now been proven safe for women who've had huge studies. Eustrogen receptor breast cancer.

You can start taking it in your 70s or 80s if you've never taken systemic HRT before and you're not going to start taking that. You can still take vaginal estrogen. Yeah. It would make an enormous difference to all women, right? Yeah. It's Chanel for your vagina. We spend all this money up here.

down there. And also what I wrote about in the book, I did a whole chapter on the vagi-biome. Vagibium. So the vaginal microbiome, all the chat about the Tim Spector

microbiome in our stomachs. And of course, it's all going on down there with the lactobacillin in our... It's a party down there. And basically estrogen feeds the party. estrogen is keeping it going

and a bit of testosterone too lots of testosterone receptors down there so if you're putting your estrogen back then all the good bacteria thrive all the way across your vulva from your clitoris and they also thrive in the urethra

so UTIs are halved in 70-year-old women there was a big study by starting vaginal estrogen just imagine UTIs being halved so they're not going to on antibiotics seven times a year. So important. And you think about all people's moms in kind of care homes who are getting older. They are not being told that unless they've got the most

enlightened and smart doctor. And even when they're told that, they fear putting hormones down there. And it's just the tiniest amount. And it's just like cream or a pestry. But it could make a huge difference to UTIs. Does the government mention that in any of its UTI advice to people? No, it does not. And, you know, it just should be doing that. It's such a simple thing. Why, shame, has to be shame, has to be the fact we can talk about our stomachs everywhere, but we can't possibly talk about, you know, the microbiome in our vaginas. And, you know, keeping it happy. It's so easy. And number one, it's painful having a dry vagina, so it hurts. So that will affect work. And this is something that is completely safe and nobody's talking about it. Number two, when my, so my

grandmother, Pippi, came to live with me. So I lived with her. She saved my life when I was a little girl. I lived with her for 10 years. And then she came to live with me when she got dementia. And she had a carer coming because I was working and everything. But it was great having her there. And when she got a UTI with a bit of dementia, it was horrific because it would make her have a very deep psychosis where she would be trying to climb out of windows. I mean, she was a danger to herself. So UTIs in the elderly, you know, if you could do something about that, which we can

and not have to give antibiotics and make them occur. less. Oh my God. Yeah. No, that's exactly what happened to my mum. And she ended up in hospital with a UTI and then she never went home. She went to a care home after that. And so the UTI is also a big, it's big thing that we can help. You just think it's tiny, but actually it is life-changing for so many people. So yeah, but it's great that we have these answers. It's just getting them out there and telling women and getting it to every community, every. everywhere, you know, it really, really matters. It did make me giggle a bit.

There was a vaginal estrogen that came out that was called Gina. Oh, yeah. And I was sort of like, what is that like vagina? I've never known how to pronounce it, have you? Vagina. I'd like some gina vaginal estrogen, please. But didn't you think labia were labia? Yes.

On labs, labs. Is it labia? Well, I think they're labia, but that could just be post-people's labia. and other people may have labs. I've got labs for sure. You can say, but all these things. But I just go and pronounce any of these words and don't worry about them

because who knows what these are. No one knows. I'd also like to talk about, because you were very candid as well and talked about an affair that you were, I think you were ashamed of really at the time with your family and everything. Do you mind talking about that,

sharing about that? I mean, I spoke, I had very, stupidly. I had an affair with a married man. But I needed someone in lots of ways. It wasn't just about a sort of sexual affair because that was important. But I needed support and I was wanting support when my mum was dying and just have a safe place to go where it would be about me being looked after, being loved by someone. And there literally wasn't time for that at home.

And so having that pocket and I think the secretness helps also that it's in a different... exciting? Or like, is that, is it the secretness that makes... Well, I suppose so, but it was also just quite difficult and quite sad and quite addictive. It was really addictive. I think it was my addiction of that time and I'm really glad it's over and, you know, we broke up and, you know, but then I'm... It's part of your journey, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like sort of opening the paint. It was sort of letting it... It let a lot out.

And also I felt sort of seen as well. You know, there was that. But then I went on the date. So we broke up and, you know, I'm living on my own. And I went on the dating apps. And I went on Guardian Soulmates. Okay. This is quite, Guardian Soulmates is great.

It was, we should start a new dating app that's proper like that. Can I just say something? Yeah. I would love to do that. Yeah. It would be so much better. For midlifers. Yeah.

Proper one. A proper one. A proper one. A proper one. Lots of emails and lots of long discussions about, you know, just complex things about what you read and what you did. And also, I don't know my left and my right. So the swiping is very difficult for me. I have a lot of trouble with that.

Anyway, so wrong way. Oh, anyway, lots and lots of emails. And I met a lot of nice men. Really, you know, I met a diver, a psychotherapist, a librarian, a Scottish nationalist. And I just went out every week. I did one a week. And I met them for a coffee or in a bar for one drink. And I met a great load of people.

And did you know after a coffee or a drink? Yes or no? Yeah, you do, don't. Well, I didn't think about it as yes or no. I thought about it as a sort of story I was in. And I think that's the way to think about it. Because otherwise, well, no, just the idea that you meet all these different people. And they're interesting people because they've probably been through a lot too, you know, these kind of guys.

So I think they were nice on the Guardian soulmates app. Anyway, as it turns out, I'm on there and you have a nickname and my nickname was ironically. You go under a pseudonym. So that was quite sad. So I'm ironically. And I get a message from someone and he says, I recognised you. We were at university together. We were in law class and I realized, oh my God, that's Cameron Scott from my law class.

War bad jumpers, wore pringle jumpers with triangles and, you know, diamonds on. We were mates and we had coffee together, but we never went out or anything like that. Yeah. But we both did philosophy of law. Wow. I bet that's an interesting degree. And then we met up and moaned about all the other people we've been dating on Cardi and Salmates. And then we fell in love.

And that's how it was so nice. So I'm asking, do you mind me asking you how old you were when that happened? 54. Wow. Now 61. Wow. Yeah. And we got married to New York last year.

Wow. In fact, we eloped. We eloped. Oh, my God. Wait. Married the City Hall. Oh, your Kate's short. Goosebts again.

Goosepumps again. I love that, Kate. It was so nice. How did your, how did your ex feel about that? I don't know. I mean, he said me congratulations. So that's nice. Oh, yeah, no, he was, he was, he sent it very sweet email.

That's really nice. Yeah, how did your kids? The kids were great. Oh. And my daughter was there because she lives in New York. So she was our best man and wicks. and whatever you, you know. But it was great.

So we got married to City Hall, $55. Can recommend that. A big queue of other people going in, you know, people in double tuxedars, people in dresses made of meringues from New Jersey. You know, it was absolutely fantastic. People getting married in an emergency. And then we had dim sum in Chinatown afterwards

and went and hung out with our friends in New York. And actually, when I get to a second wedding, it's really not about all the aunts and uncles and the people. Yeah. It was kind of just us, the two of us. And it was really nice. And I wore tartan. Did you?

I wore a tartan suit. Is there a, what clan is? Is there a, you know, the clan? No, not really. No, but it was just sort of, it was just really nice. It was a really wonderful kind of end to this mad ride of kind of survival and struggle. And, you know, it felt like we, you know, and my partner had been through a lot too. So it was really nice.

to kind of do that. For anyone watching or listening, like it's a journey life, you know, and this book is about navigating a tricky part of that journey. Can you explain what it feels like to go from that to where you are now and how you feel? Oh, wow. Do you know what?

I'm not sure that I can. I just feel, I suppose I feel like I'm both, I've grown up, but I'm also 12 again, because there is that sense of just being utterly you in the way you are, you were 12, almost before you have to deal with anything feminine or masculine or anything, you're just climbing trees and causing trouble and doing, and I feel like I'm just climbing trees and causing trouble and being very, very happy about quite simple things. And I think it's a kind of curve that comes back to almost that stage in your life when things are quite simple.

And I kind of see things clearly in a way I didn't. So, you know, I have been really lucky. Yeah. I don't think you've been lucky. That's what's interesting. From what I hear from you, you've worked hard to get here. Yeah. Well, so have you.

Don't throw it back at me, Kate. That's my job. I'm a journalist. Take it. Take it. Because that sounds so lovely and I'm sure I'm just thinking about people listening and how appealing that sounds. But the thing I love that you just said is that you are your true authentic self. I'm interested. Does Cameron feel the same?

I think to a big extent, yeah. He's been through a huge amount and he was a barrister and now he's training to be a psychotherial. And so that is quite a different life. He's, you know, he's made his big change. Yeah. You can have him on next time. Yeah. Lovely boy.

Well, I think that's, you know, again, it's like this is what I've always wanted to do. And we have to go through the hiccup to get to the point where we're ready to make the change because change is hard. Yeah. And it's painful. And sometimes it takes work, makes you grow. Yeah. All of these things. I do want to go back a little bit.

I might cry now. I would like to say thank you to you very quickly. I want to go back and talk about the pill and the pill documentary and everything that we did. But I was having a think about it earlier. And I watched the beginning of the pill documentary and then I watched the bit where I had the coil fitted with Leslie. Oh, yes. And I was slightly I didn't realize

how triggered I'd get by that because it happened at One Wellbeck. And because of that, because you took me to One Wellbeck to get that coil fitted, they asked me to do a menopause talk with Leslie for their staff. And I did the Menopause talk. And then this girl said,

We'd like to offer you a three, Halscheck. I said, I can't share about it because my followers can't afford it. It's like expensive. I don't want, I can't, I can't give you anything in return for it. She said, you've already done that.

You did a talk like, and I was like, but they said they'd do a dexas scan as part of it and everything. And I thought, oh, I'm thinking, I don't really need it. I'm a fitness lady. Like, who's got two days to do that? She was quite insistent, Rupy. I love her.

So I said, okay. And they found the brain tumour. So it's thanks to you. But it's all connected. You hadn't taken me. There. Yeah. Thank you.

Well, it's thanks to you too because it was your idea to do that. And it was an amazingly courageous idea. It's really important. But the universe does those things. Yes, it does. You know. It was so weird watching it back. But that pill documentary, I would like to say,

I'm constantly hassling Channel 4 to keep those up. on all four where people can keep watching these documentaries. And then if they're not going to do that, please can we put them on YouTube? And actually the pill documentary is on YouTube. I don't know if you know that. Oh, right. In its entirety.

Oh, good. So if anybody out there who's listening or wants to watch it, they can go and catch it. It's called The Pill Revolution. Yeah. And I just would like to talk to you about what's, about the pill, journey that women go on and kind of the scandal of the fact that nothing's changed.

Could you just talk us through that a little bit in terms of contraceptives? Well, basically the pill has got lots of synthetic hormones in them and most pills do. And synthetic hormones, ain't that's great for you. In a short term, yes. When you're saying short term, can I just interrupt you that? When you're taking short term, what kind of, how short do you mean? I mean, I think probably you'd be okay going on the pill for five or ten years. years, but really in terms of long term, there are risks and there are the risks that they

always thought existed with HRT of things like breast cancer. But also the main thing for me is that synthetic hormones are lowering very young women's hormones at the age of 15 when they go on it for, I've got acne, my periods are all over the shop. And instead of looking at the problem, we just shut the person down and shut their hormones down and give them these synthetic hormones and they are really bad for mental health and I think we found that in our survey

that we were looking at about a third of women talking about mental health problem on the pill and what alerted you and me to this was our kids and having to deal with all that ourselves you know as mums and my daughter Molly came back in lockdown from Edinburgh University and she'd been put on a new pill and it was micro-girginer.

Giverton, the basic pill, and had come to London and basically shut herself in her bedroom and she said, I didn't want to come into the room. I felt I'd darken the room if I came in. You know, she didn't want to come up and eat dinner with us. And she was like a different person. And then her pill ran out in lockdown and, you know, nobody was bothering getting anything renewed. And a month later, Molly was back. And she was back in the living room. And it had had a massive depressive effect on her mental health and I just thought oh it's COVID you know we're all having a hard time no she'd really been suffering on the pill and keeping going and it had never occurred to me that the pill could affect your mental health to that extent and it turned out that that was true

of millions of millions and that the studies were out there and molly got right in there and started looking at the Scandinavian studies and researching them and then we saw huge numbers of women in these giant population studies in Scandinavia who had mental health effects from the synthetic hormones in the pill. And obviously all these progestions are different and some are better and some are worse. And there's new kinds of pill that have got some really good body identical estrogen in them, slightly better. But none of it is good enough and we are being treated like, you know, contraception machines.

We stop people having babies. Who cares if, you know, their skin is terrible. they're having horrible mental health problems. They're not having base. Or they're feeling a bit flat. You know, that's the kind of worst thing that we're flattening out. And there's a real revolution against that. And obviously, TikTok and things like that and the misinformation.

So it's so important we should give them the right information. And it's very hard to get that and get people to stand up and talk properly about it. And lots of the research hasn't been done. I mean, I did a book on the pill. And, you know, I was digging and digging and digging to get the information. I needed and it just nobody'd put together the big picture and we need to keep doing it. You know, this is the thing about the pill and about the menopause

is that it's almost like almost every single woman will take some kind of contraceptive or use something as a contraceptive at some point in another line. The idea and every woman will go through the menopause, the idea that every medical professional and every every business doesn't know all of this stuff is so insulting. Yeah. It's, you must be, like, getting sensed.

Yeah. I mean, well, that's why we don't stop, is it? I would think, why would I get up and put up another menopause post or a pill post this morning? Or why would I look at, you know, and I get alerts to all the new signs. And I just think, oh my God, just got to keep fighting. And it's really important that we fight and the fight gets bigger. and bigger and bigger. But I do see this incredibly positive results around menopause that ordinary people who were not, you know, are more aware. But that we really changed the conversation.

And if we could change the conversation more around the pill, and that's probably for young people to do too. I mean, the other quite interesting thing that we looked at or talked about was contraceptives for men. Oh, yeah. And that is still slowly progressing. And we've got it. all. We've got a lovely contraceptive shoulder gel for men. And it's just not out there yet. They're still waiting for trial number three. And the standards of safety are so much higher for men because we face a risk of pregnancy and they don't face any risks.

So the safety standards have got to be hugely high because they're not preventing anything. And the idea you don't think of a couple as a unit and consider that men should take a little bit of the risk too. And the stuff they're being offered is much higher quality than us. body identical, better progestin, if I may say, in the shoulder gel. And there's pills. And there's all sorts of things that are non-hormonal that are being tested for men that, you know, stop the swimmers. And, you know, that will be great, actually.

That will be really great. That would be helpful, wouldn't it? You know, if you can put through a COVID vaccine in three months, why on earth can't you put through a male pill? Why have we waited since 1960? I mean, it is, it is an outrageous. It is of bias. And that's what this whole story is about, is this outrageous bias about women's health and women's suffering.

Well, I love about when we met that you, I feel like you came out of the womb activist. And I have always been, I hate to bring star signs into excess, so pants, but I'm a Libran and I love balance. And activism is like that. You know, there's no balance. We've got to fight for it.

And I'm always like, yes, but what happens if we do this? And maybe we can be balanced. And maybe this is a good way of like looking at something. And when I met you, you lit a fire in my belly. Oh, good. Yeah. And I was always a bit frightened of being too shouty or I don't want to upset the balance.

But you made me see that it's, it is your Instagram account's meno scandal. It is a scandal. Pills scandal. menno scandal, scandal for women in health. And it's still going on. And we all know it's happening. And it's still going on, which is even more of a scandal. And I hope that our conversation today has gone some way

to make other people feel like they've had a little fire lit in their belly by you and what we've talked about. And by you? Well, us. Here to cause trouble. Cause trouble. We've got to do it. I'd like to sort of finish on this idea that this podcast was started with the idea of being able to die satisfied with our lives.

And I feel like you're already there. You're satisfied with what you've achieved in life. How did you, were you, did you think I want to find purpose and when did you think I need a purpose or have you always? had a purpose? I think I've always been a bit of a troublemaker, but the particular bit of menopause and women's health was absolutely gripping because the chances for change were so within reach

and it was so powerful. And so I suppose it was kind of mini training for this moment. And also that it was sort of magical what happened in that somebody getting, Lurane County gave me your phone number. I rang you and you were driving to Tunbridge Wells. I went mad. I went mad.

Did you go mad? Yeah, I went mad. Yeah, we both went mad. We make a documentary. Well, fuck it, yeah. And you know what I mean? It was sort of a piece of magic. And then you came on.

And you... Loved it. Took this issue and made it giant size. We loved it. But without what you did and your sort of confident intimacy with your own body, with women, with, there was a thing you did that sitting around talking about the science was never going to do. And the thing you did was sort of emotionally connect. Well, I've probably sat there doing the science papers and you emotionally connected the world

to this story. You know what I mean? Like it was, it was the brilliant meeting. I can't tell you, I was banging on about how excited I was about talking to you today because you changed my life. in every way. And I feel like I'm alive today because of you. Like it's amazing. You've changed my life. And you gave me purpose. I love myself because of you.

No, honestly, I really mean it. It's amazing. Thank you. But I want you're sitting here. You're going to help that other people do that because I think this is what I want this podcast to be. It's such a good idea. It's a fantastic idea.

idea and that we rebirth ourselves. It's lovely. It's fantastic. I love you, Kate Neer. Oh. You're amazing. Thank you for everything. Dangerous hug. Thank you.