Begin Again with Davina McCall - Fearne Cotton: I'm Saying No More and It Feels Great! At 43 I Feel More Me Than Ever.

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

In the first episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall sits down with Fearne Cotton, a familiar face from our TV screens who found her true self after stepping away from the spotlights of fame and other people's expectations. Starting her career as a TV presenter at just 15 years old, Fearne shares her journey of battling anxiety, panic attacks, and eating disorders while navigating the pressures of being in the spotlight. It wasn’t until she stepped back from TV that she learned to prioritise her well-being and embrace the power of saying ‘no.’ Now navigating her through her midlife, Fearne reflects on finding peace, rejecting societal expectations, and gaining new perspectives. Fearne Cotton is the founder of Happy Place and the host of the Happy Place podcast. Listen more here: https://open.spotify.com/show/1J6Ddy4dcXjFZDmWQs3Pu0 – Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  – (00:00) Intro (02:01) Fearne Cotton On Aging Gracefully (05:25) Fearne Cotton's Mental Health Journey (24:15) Media Scrutiny & Growing Up In The Spotlight (28:36) Fearne Cotton's Career Transformation (34:42) Zoe Ad (36:09) Adobe Ad (37:07) How Tough Times Shaped Fearne Cotton's Gratitude (43:22) Who Is Fearne Cotton Today? (48:50) The Importance Of Therapy In Fearne Cotton's Life (51:08) Trigger Warning: Sensitive Topics Ahead (51:23) Fearne Cotton's Battle With Bulimia (57:00) How Motherhood Changed Fearne Cotton (01:00:30) Life Lessons Fearne Cotton Learned From Podcast Guests (01:04:51) What's Next For Fearne Cotton? (01:08:58) Fearne Cotton's Words Of Wisdom (01:11:21) Davina McCall's Episode Recap (01:12:33) Fiverr Ad – Sponsored by: Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ ZOE - https://zoe.com and use code DAVINA10 Fiverr - https://fvrr.co/davina – SetArtwork provided by Kimi Zoet. Enquiries: [e-mail] https://g2ul0.app.link/oQMAPbdSGNb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road, that's the Volkswagen Tiguan. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood accents. Under the hood, the available 201 turbocharged horsepower engine gives it a fun to drive edge. The refined Tigwan, you deserve more style. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SuvW, German engineered for all.

Presents Laura versus Fruit Flies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, Fruit Flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Two weeks in I was on my knees and all of those male columnists were awful back in that era.

And one guy, he said that he wished. Oh, wait, put the car in park a moment. What did you just say? So Fern, tell me, the post Kids TV, Fern, was it you? I felt at that time, oh God, I'm so uncool. You thought you were uncool? Oh, but I was. I was deeply uncool. Fern?

No. You did a pivot, an extraordinary career pivot. Talk me through that process. Right, I don't really want to do radio anymore. And there's no telework. No one's ringing me. I'm not getting offered anything at all. I'm just sat there feeling really insecure.

You're not flavour of the month anymore. What did that feel like? How do you overcome a thing that you feel is now something that you can no longer do? Knowing that other people feel like you do, is not to be underestimated. There's definitely going to be massive road bumps and failure and getting things wrong and that's okay. The most important thing I've learned is that I feel like I'm really proud of you. Hey, and welcome to my first ever episode of Begin Again.

I'm so excited. Basically, I think we get to a stage in our lives where we have a bit more freedom. You know, we can start kind of feeling a bit more like we can wear what we like and say what we like and do what we like. But sometimes we also feel a bit stuck and a bit unsure of what to do and how do we move forwards and how do we pivot jobs and how do we live the best life possible? How do we follow a spiritual path? There are so many questions and I want to bring you the answers. I want to go on this journey with you and it starts here. So let's begin again.

You turn 40 and you've talked a lot about the joy of getting to this stage of your life. And part of that is understanding you, but through that, understanding you because you understand your family. Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. I think I turned 43 this week and, yeah. It's great. I mean, right? It's great.

You know, women are constantly, and this is so obvious, I'm not saying anything new here, but talked about like aging is such a terrible thing and that, you know, we have to do so much and spend so much money to try and stop it happening. I'm only experiencing great things. And I know that there's shit, you know, there could be women in their 60s, 70s watching this going, oh, wait until you get to my age, there's pain and whatever, and I know that's all coming. And there's all sorts of stages and phases. But I'm talking about a sense of feeling like I'm in my mind.

own body and feeling like I can be me rather than a filtered version of myself or an extra version of myself because I'm not quite enough or whatever I might have thought in my 20s. I'm just going to turn up as me now and that will differ on any given day. But actually, I really like the feeling of that comfort of just being myself, especially in this bloody job. Well, it's relaxing. Yes, isn't it? I'm expending less energy on having to be something I'm not. And trying to be something you're not is fucking exhausting. And I like what you said of, I am enough. I was having a chat with Marissa Pia about, and I said, you know, okay, what would be the one golden nugget? And she said to write, I am enough on your fridge, on your mirror, on your mirror,

because it is probably overarchingly the biggest thing that the vast majority of people that go and see have the therapy feel that they are not enough. Yeah. I mean, I haven't entirely nailed that one. I think hopefully you have moments. Yeah, and I think incrementally it gets, it becomes a more natural inclination. But I think also you become more cognizant of the moments where you do feel, I mean, And then I don't waste four hours after a social encounter worrying about what I said, what I didn't say, replaying the whole conversation over in my head eight times, wanting to call them and say,

oh, you know, that thing I said. I didn't mean, you know, I used to waste hours doing that, not sleeping because of it. That I'm more aware of when I'm doing that, when I'm not doing that. and I feel more confident in liking myself, even if I have said something stupid. Yes. What's and all. Yeah, I'm not beating myself up because I did something that was a bit off, because we're all a bit off. And that's okay. Everyone is. And there's less, I think there's less tolerance for it in our job today than ever.

And that's a problem. And that stresses me out. But in my everyday life, I'm getting much better at going, oh God, just don't worry about it. It doesn't matter. You can still like yourself. Where do you think this staying up all night and thinking about something and going over something you said comes from, is there an event in your life where you think, oh my God, you know, I said this to someone and this happened? Yes. Yes.

I mean, I went through a whole ton of shit in my late 20s. early 30s and I guess I've spent the last seven years writing and talking around events, but never about them necessarily, talking more about the feelings and the repercussions and the hangover from it. And it was a deeply challenging era that still troubles me greatly. and I'm still in therapy every damn week and I'm very lucky to be able to do so and I'm still triggered by the same things. I'm still unnerved by stuff in my past, but there is a lovely incremental climbing out of a big deep ditch that I was in.

And it is a bit of a wiggly line, but it's definitely a wiggly line that goes up. And I really, really felt it. We just had the Happy Place Festival in Manchester. Yeah, I saw that. And on the Sunday, I felt so overwhelmed, but in the best way. And I stood on the stage,

thanking everyone for coming, and I could have wept my heart out. But I was so happy, and I was so content, and I was so comfy with feeling like it was okay to have all those people there, not sort of undeserving or, like, out-of-body experience. I thought, yeah, I've done this and this is fucking great. And I felt really happy and, but in my body, I wasn't like euphoric floating around. And it really made me

think back to like, say, 13 years ago, an unrecognizable person who no way could have done that. But I've still got a long way to go. There is no way I would want to host a live TV show. I would want to host a live radio show. There is no way that I could sleep in, I don't know, a house with a bunch of people that I don't know really, really well. Or even that I do know well, sleep's a massive issue still. So I've still got these really niche things that I can't get over. Yes. I cannot get.

And I will, but I feel, and I've got over, like I couldn't drive on the motorway at one point for about five years. I didn't drive in the motorway. And I have conquered that one. So I know they're conquerable, but I can't do it at the moment. I don't know why. I really, really struggle with those three things. And then there are a few others, but they're the big ones that I don't even know where to begin. But if you said, oh, you've got to go and do live TV show now and present it like I did

for hundreds of years before, no way. There's no way. So you were okay doing it at the big of the big. Yeah, yeah. Oh, more than like, I was complacent. I was just like talking to you now. There was no switch that went on where I was on live TV. I was just doing it. You know, from a very young age. I did live TV from 16. Disney, right? Yeah, we did Digit, which was, I did Disney Club, which was pre-recorded then from 16 onwards. And then Digit, yeah. Digit was live. Smile was live with Reggie. I had a whole host of live TV shows, back to back, top of the pops was live at one point. I didn't even feel nervous. I used to love it.

thrive in that environment. Now I would have a panic attack in heartbeat. There's no way. And it's not even directly rooted to that era. There's nothing about what I was going through that is directly related to the outcome. But that's the weird thing I think we're going through challenging stuff that these sort of darts, these arrows end up going into all these different bits of your life that are unrelated. And you can't figure out the root of it or why, but they're there. and you become, you know, you become sort of obsessional about them, which is the problem. So I would like to tackle those down the line. Luckily, my career isn't dependent on it these days and I'm grateful for that.

But I would like to just for my own confidence and just to sort of overcome more areas, especially the sleep one. I would love to sort that out. Talk me through your sleep? My sleep is not great. I mean, I just have to have the right environment and then I can sleep. So I, for the majority of the time, sleep in the spare room because I am so obsessional about noise, whether it's my husband's snoring, which many people do, or if I'm in a new environment, like I'm not a fan of hotels, because I don't know if there's going to be thick enough double glazing or if doors are going to shut in corridors. If I hear, like, doors shutting, I know I'm screwed.

I will not sleep. And before, I could sleep anywhere. I would be able to sleep on the rug there in a heartbeat. You know, I spent my life in my 20s going from different time zones. I never got jet lagged. I'd just sleep anywhere. Now, any noise and I'm on high alert. And then my heart starts racing.

And I can feel panic and adrenaline and these big adrenaline rushes. And then I'm just up all night. So, and I, that relates again to like if I had, when I was still pushing through and sort of, if I was covering for Zoe on Radio Till, I used to cover for her on breakfast. Knowing that I had that the next day, I definitely wouldn't sleep. And I'd be catastrophizing all night.

Catastrophizing. And I can do it in my eyes closed. Like, I know how that show works. I love doing it when I'm there. But the level of catastrophizing would give me these big adrenaline rushes, and then I would just be awake all night. And it got to the point where, you know, two weeks in, I was on my knees. And I had to say to the head of Radio 2,

I love doing this show so much. And I could do it with such ease. but the night before is torture and I can't do it to myself anymore. And it was horrible saying that. I wanted to do the job, but I couldn't do it. And I still couldn't do it now. There's no way.

So, God, this is amazing because I read you as like such a calm person but I think you keep yourself in a calm environment. Yeah. In an environment that's safe for you. Yeah. But I still, you know, so there was, I don't want you to talk about. something you don't want to talk about.

So there was something that happened. Yeah. That triggered. But you didn't really have anxiety at all before that. No, no, no. I don't suppose I did. I mean, I... No, I don't think I'd ever felt...

I mean, understand normal nerves for a live TV show. Absolutely. Like nerves if I had a big new... Like when I started doing children in need and I was in my early 20s, you know, that was a big deal. I was in love with Sir Terry and I still am. And I felt like, you know, there would be... healthy nerves.

But I would do the job just fine. I would sleep the night before. Right. I'd feel fine. But that has gone out the window. Maybe it's possible to go back to feeling like that. But it's so weird because say doing this or say when I'm doing my podcast or on a stage doing a big talk in front of thousands of people.

Feel fine. Totally fine. Like unbelievably calm and actually so connected to what I'm doing and engaged with it. I'm not disassociating. I'm not floating out my body. I love it. Like doing the festival this weekend, we had thousands of people.

I'm doing talks on the stage. Absolutely fine with public speaking. It's something about being in other people's domain, like doing something for the BBC, doing something for ITV where I'm not on my turf. I'm on their turf. Anyone could say anything to me. I've got to deliver what they want me to deliver.

Do I know what that even is? how am I meant to be? It's all too confusing for my brain and the pressure is way too much, way too much. So I have found, luckily, ways of forging a new career. I'm so grateful I've had a part two, which is on my terms and it's been a slow burn, but we're in really good place now. And it works for me and I can create projects where I feel safe and I feel comfortable, luckily. And I feel like I've got a purpose behind it now, which I maybe didn't before, didn't necessarily have that. Like, this is why I'm getting out of bed in the morning. So I've been really, really lucky that I can keep working. Because for some people,

you can't, you know, you can't do that one thing that you know how to do. So I've been able to shape shift a little bit. But, you know, it's been rough along the way, but it feels good now. How long ago did you get that shift? Well, in feeling good about it. Well, I'm feeling like from not being anxious to anxious. When did that change? Oh. Do you know what?

It's really weird because I think when I was going through all the tricky stuff, the initial reaction was a very low mood. I was in a bit of a black hole. I went on antidepressants for a bit because I just couldn't quite function in my everyday life. And it was actually a really amazing friend who had the balls, quite frankly, to say to me, you are repeating yourself every day. And you're saying the same thing.

And it's actually quite worrying now. So we're going to go and see someone. I would never have gone to see a doctor if she hadn't said to me, I think you need to do something about this. So that's what I went on antidepressants. only for a short while. It was maybe six months just to sort of get my head above the ground.

And then there was a period where I was a bit flat, but I was kind of, you know, okay. And, you know, had very happy moments throughout this. The birth of my children, getting married. You know, I had some big, big highs, and I really enjoyed them. There was no, nothing, none of the magic was taken away from those things, thank God. I think it's important to talk about that

in the context of depression, because for me, It wasn't one thing. It was at the start. And then it would, it were peaks and troughs. And there were beautiful moments in that period. And then weirdly, about four years after that, the panic started out of the blue. And I wonder personally if it was because I was coming out of the low mood. And all of a sudden I had to go, I've got to deal with all this stuff that I can see.

And before I was just fingers in it is not looking. So then the panic kicked in and I had my first panic attack while I was driving on the motorway. I'd been fine driving forever. Yeah, so then that became a trigger. But then that sort of initial bit, everything was a trigger. Traveling too fast, things being too loud, feeling out of control, could be anything. Sort of unexpected things happening, like bumping into someone that I knew could de-revelling. stabilised me to the point where I couldn't remember their name, but I knew them really well.

And then I'd start panicking that I didn't know their name, so I couldn't say it out loud. It could be anything. So that was a period of sort of panic. And then the panic attacks are a lot less frequent now. But that might be because I don't put myself in those situations. So I don't do live tele. I don't do live radio. I try and sleep in an environment where I know I can.

I'd like to change that one. So I don't have one for, I don't know when the last time was, months and months and months ago. This is a lot to live with, isn't it? It's like, it's, you're, I put on my Instagram bio, I'm a work in progress. Yep. But I feel like you're a work in progress, you know, that something's triggered this. And then now you're living with it, but you're working.

hard, I feel like, to try and come through it. You're not like just throwing your hands up in the end going, I'd give up. No, no. But like you said about the arrows, you can only sort out one problem at a time. You can't go right. I'm going to get rid of all of my anxiety. It's like, okay, I've done the motorway driving. Yeah. How do you do that? Because there'll be people watching who are suffering with deep anxiety. And it's like, how do you overcome a thing that you feel is now something that you can no longer do? Well, I did, during the pandemic, I tried EMDR. Is that the right order of letters? I think it is. Yes, EMDR. Could you explain to people what that is?

Yes. So I'd heard about it from a friend who had had great success with it. And it's an eye movement or bilateral tapping therapy. So it's either you do this sequence of this therapeutic sort of sequence. where your eyes are either moving, I was on a screen because it was obviously in lockdown, to the sides of a screen, or some people, some therapists will use a stick that people follow, it could be a dot on a screen. I struggled with the eye movement, so I ended up doing this bilateral tapping. All therapists who work in this way will have a different method,

but the particular therapists I work with gave me the tools to think of when I'm at my happiest, and to really visualize a place and a space where I'm really calm, really happy, really safe, really cozy. And that's a really important part of it because you have to always be able to go back to that. Then you go through the nitty gritty of reliving stuff that has felt very challenging. And that isn't fun. You know, I dreaded doing this therapy. Absolutely dreaded it. And I found it exhausting to do it.

That said, I'm extremely lucky that I found someone who could. could do it. I'm very lucky that I could afford to pay to do it because this is the massive systemic problem that we have on the planet, but certainly in the UK, access to these treatments, the waiting lists are long. They are not cheap. So I'm extremely fortunate that I got to try this out. And I did it on off for about six months. And we weren't targeting any particular problematic area. I was just going through the motions of reliving some stuff. But for some reason, it enabled me to feel like, oh, I could drive on the motorway, I think, today. I don't know why. And, you know, it wasn't just like I got in the car and drove. I was really shitting myself the

first time. And I could feel the swell of panic, but I was able to just kind of simmer it down. And now I'm pretty okay. I'll have a bit of a, whew, when I first get on the motorway. And then I'm okay and I sort of listen to a podcast usually to distract myself and just get out of the headspace of worrying about it. So I could probably do another course of that and see what other areas it starts to work with. I mean that's hard though because you were saying reliving. Yeah, that dark stuff is like you know it's going to help you in the long run but it's very hard sometimes to do that. Yeah. What other things have you found that have really helped you? I'll tell you the one thing that's been the biggest blessing is starting happy place.

Yeah. It has been in every way, like, it's totally saved me in ways. That sounds so dramatic, but it doesn't. It sort of has because I've still got a job, and I literally wouldn't have had one. I don't know what I'd be, I'd be kicking around going, please someone give me a TV show that I don't really give a shit about, but I'll do it. Like, that's where I'd be. And also the knowing that other people feel like you do is not to be underestimated. Like when I first told a few of my mates, or maybe even sort of said it publicly like, oh, I've been having panic attacks.

I had 10 people that I know really well text me and say, why haven't we been talking about I have these? Or like someone, one of my friends who's in her 70s went, oh my God, when I was your age, the amount of overwhelm I felt that would lead to panic. And I just saw her as this robust, amazing person. So I think that has been huge. And also finding the right few people, one of them being a therapist, but actually the majority of them being friends, that I can sit and say, I feel like this, or this thing really worries me,

or I feel shame because of. And knowing they're not judging me has honestly diminished. I would say 80% of the, really the shame that I felt around all the feelings I had and where I was at in my head. It just wiped it out of the equation because I thought, well, if they're not judging me, maybe this isn't all so awful. Like maybe this is, this is okay. And I give myself a really hard time. I'm a real perfectionist. So I expect too much of myself.

But also, our job and the way. way that we can be scrutinized, vilified, one sentence we've said can be pulled apart and our whole personality assassin, like just totally pulled apart and annihilated, I have deeply struggled with. So then I give myself even more of a hard time. Oh, I am an awful person because John from Birmingham said I am. Oh my God, I am absolutely terrible because Susan from Bogner said I I've absolutely clung on to those comments. I don't even know if they're real people at the end of the day. They could be bots or they could be people that are struggling in their own lives.

But I've used that as ammunition against myself. So I definitely need people that I can use as a soundboard and hopefully do the same for them to go, this is all fine. You're all right. You're just a human, bumbling through life. And so I might, you know, for us all to have that commonality. It's a big one. you know, all of us really in the days when kind of there was a free-for-all in the press really

to just sort of, they were just having a go at everybody all the time. It was absolutely bonkers. But I forget how young you were. Yeah. Because I didn't get famous until I was 25 and I was on MTV and that was quite niche. Not that many people watched MTV. It was kind of worldwide but, but you know, it was quite niche. like I could still go out and...

But you went on prime-time television at Howald. Well, I was on ICV at 15, yeah. I mean, that's nuts. Yeah. Tell me what that was like, because effectively you spent your childhood with us. Do you know what? Those first, I don't know, maybe seven years,

were amazing. They were amazing. I had this brilliant woman in my life, well she still is, called Maddie Darrell, who is still one of the biggest kids TV producers out there. She created, she worked on Disney Club, she created Digit, Smile, all those early kids TV shows. And her level of nurturing and care for all of us in that poll, certainly me and Reggie, who we've gone through the whole thing together,

which is an amazing thing to have him by my side for that whole. thing. We've been through thick and thin together. And I was really cared for. It wasn't traumatic at all. And we didn't have the internet really kicking off until a bit later down the line, certainly no social media. So I would do a show, go home and then go to a dance class. I didn't think about the show ever again. I'd just done it. And I didn't worry if I was good, bad. I just did it. I didn't give a toss afterwards. And I didn't start considering any of that, probably until, yeah, probably when I started doing adult TV, like top of the pops and stuff. But then I don't think I got too much shit then.

I remember when I started Radio One, that's when it really kicked in. You know, you're on a really open forum in terms of the feedback because you've got text coming in the whole time. And all of those male columnists were awful back in that era. Yeah. Like I remember one sort of, I remember all of them verbatim, the bad ones, because you do. Like, you read them in the paper, they stay in your brain. And one guy, who I'm not going to even give the time of days, like, mention his name, I'd done this TV show with lovely Ben Shepard, who we are all in love with.

And we did this bungee jump thing together. And he said that he wished the bungee rope had snapped and I died. I mean. And you're just as a young woman in her early 20s going, am I that awful? Am I that bad at my job? Am I that unlikable? And I think that's when my country is.

confidence started to seriously dissolve. Having that, like a grown man, and I think I just thought at that point, I'm not a proper adult, these are proper adults who know, and I'm in, I thought I was in the wrong, that I was doing a bad job. I didn't for a minute think he's wrong. I felt angry, but I think the big takeaway for me when I read those things was, there's something wrong with me. I am awful and I'm bad at my job. Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. And then having that sort of compounded with social media down the line and people just saying whatever they want whenever they want, you know, it's, I sometimes think, how did I even carry on doing that job every day? I don't know. People do far harder jobs. I'm not saying people who are doing

actually important work in the medical fields or science, whatever. I don't think they have that constant critique. Horrible. Yeah. It's horrible. Um, so I don't put myself. in that environment anymore because I don't want to. I don't want to be a dartboard for everyone to just pin their thoughts to. I really don't. I'm not up for it. I'm not interested in your opinion. I know that I'm good at my job today.

I know that I'm good at interviewing people. So say whatever the fuck you want, I will keep on doing it. But I don't want to put myself in an arena where everyone can just say whatever the hell they want. One of the things I really, really, really love it. I mean, there's so many things I love about you, right? But you did a pivot, an extraordinary career pivot with Happy. Originally it was a book and then Happy Place. It was such a brave and bold thing to do.

Talk me through that process. It didn't feel brave at all, if I'm honest. I felt, well, we. With the book, I just thought, oh, I guess I could write a book about, I could write an honest book because I'd never been honest before that. Yeah, we didn't know, we didn't really know you. No, but were any of us given the space to be ourselves? No.

We would do a TV show, there'd be an auto queue and we would read it. And then we would, you know, do a press interview and be as guarded as humanly possible. Yeah, isn't that sad? I never said anything because I was so scared that something was going to be misconstrued or, or whatever, or taken out of context. So I thought, I've got nothing to lose at this point. I wasn't really coping that well with the jobs I was doing. I could write a sort of fluffy book about happiness,

but actually why not write about the fact that I've just come off antidepressants or wherever I was at that point. I thought, I've got nothing to lose, and I assumed it would go a bit under the radar. And luckily, that book really connected with people. And it was received well. in terms of people saying, oh, I felt like that too. And that was, you know, unexpected.

I didn't think that would happen. Did you literally get stopped in the street? Oh, yeah. It was quite instant after that book that the conversation changed from, I loved your top on that show to shit, I've been there. And that was extraordinary. I'd never had that conversation before with strangers. ever. So I definitely felt a teeny tiny glimmer of something new, like, oh, maybe I can just be me.

It wasn't a glimmer of, and there's going to be this whole other happy place universe. God no, I just thought, oh, that feels kind of different. The whole thing was a big happy accident. I didn't feel like I was doing anything out of the ordinary, all brave, or different. I just, then, you know, then the podcast came about. So I thought, right, I don't really want to do radio anymore. And there's no telly work. No one's ringing me. I'm not getting offered anything at all. I'm just sat there feeling really insecure. You're not flavour of the month anymore. What did that feel like? Awful. Awful. Because I in the sort of

person that, again, used it, I turned it on myself. Like, you know, I would call people that I work with and say, am I really bad at this or really weird and no one's telling me? Because I just want you to tell me, just tell me so I know. And then I'll call it quits. I will happily walk away from it and I'll do something else. Why aren't I being asked to do telly anymore? What is it? I still don't know, but I don't care as much anymore. And there's not that many shows I'd really want to do, But back then I desperately wanted them. I still don't know. I don't know if I was a bit or am a bit too out of the box for it

or a bit too boring or not good enough. It could be any of those things. I don't know. But what I have done is taking the bits of my skill set that I know I'm confident in and that is interviewing. And that's where the podcast came from. I'm just going to sit and talk to people. Those conversations were received well early on.

And I think that's what I really started to think, maybe I don't have to sit around waiting for the phone to call anymore. Maybe I don't have to go in to these big TV networks and have these ghastly meetings where as someone says to me, oh, what you've been up to you recently? Quite dismissively. And then says to me, like, what your interests? And I'd be like, oh my God, I've been doing TV at that point

for like over 20 years, they don't know what I've been doing, and they don't even know what I like. And then I'd go into desperation mode. Oh, well, I've been really busy. And, oh, I really like painting. Could that be a thing? Desperate, desperate in these meetings for anyone to believe in me in any way. And I'd come away feeling gross, like violated.

Why did I go in and do that? Why did I go away? Why did I go into that meeting and act so desperately in front of this boss I've never met for or this TV exec, whoever it is? And they still don't want me to do a TV show. Why am I doing that? So I think after the podcast, I thought, I'm not doing that anymore. I am not putting myself through that. I'm going to literally spend every waking second working out how to expand the joy that I'm feeling from doing this podcast. And we're doing it. And we're fucking doing it. And I am so glad. And it hasn't been without extreme hard work and grit. And the slow, slow building of an amazing team of people that I would not be able to do any of this without. They are the, I cannot explain how much I love the people I work with.

They are the fucking best. They're the best. And I couldn't do it without them. So I feel like that's taken me years to get there. years to get there. And it's taken not just the six and a half years since the podcast, it's the 20 or years before that of getting it so wrong and meeting good people and getting it right. But it's all of it that has enabled me to do this bit now. Let's talk about the sponsors of this podcast, Zoe membership, a personalised nutrition program.

I always get asked why I look after my body. And the answer, online. good naked. Joke. Don't worry. That's not it. I do it because I know what my health is worth and I want to have the best life ever. I mean, every decade has looked very different from the last, but with age comes wisdom. Enough to recognise that the more I invest in my body, the more it pays me back.

And I did Zoe's at-home test and learned about the good and the bad microbes in my gut. in my gut and then Zoe gave me specific food scores so I could see which foods my body responds to best. And it's science led. In randomized controlled trials, Zoe members who participated in the study saw positive changes to their gut microbiome and energy levels. So if you want to join me and over 100,000 Zoe members, head to zoey.com and use code Davina 10 for 10% off.

Zoe.com and use code Devina 10. Oh, and by the way, as you clearly like podcasts, you should go and check out their new show, Zoe Science and Nutrition. It's so good. I am a massive fan. I love how they do all of this research and they give it all away for free. I've got a little challenge for you. Think of one creative project you've always wanted to start.

Okay, now let me tell you how you can bring that idea to life with our sponsor, Adobe Express. So it's a really quick and easy, Create Anything app by Adobe. So this tool's designed to give you the confidence to turn those dreams, your dreams, into reality. I've even tried it myself. We've used it to brand this show, so I can actually genuinely say that it makes creating gorgeous graphics and social posts and professional presentations just so straightforward.

With smart templates, I can get things done like in a few clicks, and there's an AI feature, which is like having a little creative genie with you. So whatever you're dreaming about, honestly, it's never too late to begin. So I dare you. Sign up for Adobe Express for free and take that first step. The most transformative chapter of your life is waiting for you. Are you grateful for the tough times? I mean, yes in a way, but I often feel frustrated when I hear people go,

I've got no regrets and I wouldn't be who I am today without the ship here because there's a bit of me that would love to have not to have gone through some of the stuff I would love to be without it I guess that in a way that the the consequences of what you've gone through some of it you are a long way down the road but some of it you're still dealing with oh yeah yeah and there might come a point maybe we're when you're my age and you go, wow, I've really, I'm so far away. Yeah. From that.

I think so. You know what I mean? I hope so. This journey, it feels so fruitful to me for you this journey, watching you go on it. It is. And kind of getting to know you a bit at a really difficult time around quite a difficult time in your life. And watching you do this pivot and how. I mean, your interviewing technique is so good.

Coming from you, I could literally die happy now. I mean, listening to you now is a joy. I'm like, oh, wow, like, this is so good. Because I see it from your side, really, more than, more, I'm not just listening to the person you're interviewing. I'm listening to your questions, but I'm in awe of you. Well, it goes two ways. I feel like I'm, I cry a lot.

But I feel, I feel, sorry. I feel like I'm really proud. I've seen you, you know, I've heard you, I've spoken to you sometimes, but I didn't really know, you know, how. When you said about your friends saying, you said the same thing. I thought, wow, that's dark. We're kind of like the best friends that never happened. We're both busy with slightly different generations.

I had kids at a different time. We live in different places, but I have a love for you that I can't even begin to express and to see how you handle your life and what you go through because it's not about what you own or the job that you do or anything like that is about the feelings that you've endured, the problems that you've had, the way that you've dealt with it and continue to deal with it.

Yeah. So of course it's not It's not going to be easier or as simple as I'm grateful for what happened to me But you know I was an addict I am grateful for that Yeah

But that was 35 years ago Yep I can say that now I couldn't say that 20 years ago So that's what I love about life Like you know you say you feel good I do Better

I do feel good I feel good most of the time Yeah And I really like like knowing myself. I think I didn't know myself back then at all. I didn't know and I still don't truly know, but I didn't, I still learning. I still learning. Like I didn't know my capabilities. I didn't know that it was all right to fuck up. I didn't know that. I thought you had to be perfect all the time. How hard is it for you to fuck up? It's really hard. Really hard. Yeah. Really,

really hard. And not only is it hard for me to fuck up, but it's hard for me to accept when things haven't gone the way that I wanted. More specifically in work, I'm probably more forgiving in my life. I think I've got a good understanding being in a blended family that things are really complicated. And they're great and they're beautiful and they're gorgeous and overwhelmingly beautiful but also really complicated. So I've got I've got much more leeway when things go wrong in my personal life, but in my work life, when things don't go the way I want them to, I believe it's because there's something wrong with me or I'm not good enough, I've not worked hard enough, or I've been deluded. That's one of my big fears. I've been foolish to believe

something could be a success and it hasn't ended up being that way. So I still give myself a time and I still don't like things going wrong. But what I think I've learned, especially from that tricky era, was for whatever reason, and I don't know what it is, I don't give up. I won't. Like, I could so easily not do this job anymore. And, you know, the amount of times I've thought, I'm out, I'm going to go and do something else or I'm going to move away to another country or start again. But actually, there's something about learning about humans, having the exceptional privilege of sitting two metres away

from someone exceptional every week. It doesn't have to be someone necessarily known, but just exceptional people with great stories, that I can't give up on. And creating something that feels really cool, this little community we're building with Happy Place. It feels so cool and special that, yeah, I didn't even know what it was going to be back then, but something kept me doing it.

I don't know what. Maybe also my parents of work ethic and, like, you don't give up. I don't know what it is, but I didn't. And I very, very nearly did. So, yeah, it's a funny one. Who are you? you now and where do you want to get to? I don't know who I am now. I really don't. I'm still figuring it out. I know bits of me.

I trust myself a lot more than I used to. I believe that I'm a good egg. And I think I didn't truly believe that back in the day because I listened to so much outside noise. I'm good egg who tries a best, who gets it wrong sometimes. Doesn't give up, but it doesn't give up. And I know that I'm curious, constantly. I know that I love to feel excited. So I'm constantly seeking what that next thing is. I don't like a plateau.

Like, what's the next thing? I want to feel excited. I love that. I love being alive. I feel like it's such a privilege to have a different day to wake up to and to see what happens. You know, I'm deeply interested in life and all of its complexities. But I think I'd like to peel back more layers to feel even more comfy in my own skin, comfortable in saying no.

That's still a problem. saying no is so good I remember when I first got clean and they offer you a tea commitment if you're new do you want to make the tea every week and every meeting that I went to which was every day at some point they'd offer me the tea commitment everybody'd look at me I'd say yes but I ended up with

seven tea commitments and I was in floods of tears it's too much responsibility I just couldn't do it my sponsor said you've got to go and give some up So I gave some up and somebody said, so you don't want to do it anymore. And I was like, no. And then somebody went, well done. Revelation. I was like, what?

Well done for saying no, what you don't hate me. Yeah. No, we're so proud of you. That was hard. I was like, what? And then I went on a no spree. I was like, this feels fucking great. Yeah, I need to go on a no spree.

I still find that one really hard. What you need is you need out me or a friend or someone near you when you say a no and we go, well, fucking done. Yeah. You know what I mean? Bernie Brown says something like, well, we're all obsessed.

We're obsessed. She said something about when you stop being a people pleaser, the one thing you have to get used to is, you know, I know there's the other side you've just expressed, but you're going to piss people off. There will be people, but don't get it because of their own shit.

Yes. And they're, you know, And also they're very used to you saying yes all the time. Yes. So when you start putting new boundaries down, there are going to be people that go, but you always do what I want you to do. Well, you've always done that thing or whatever. So I definitely struggle with that one still.

I am not great at saying no. I've got better, but I want to learn. I want to go on a no spree. You've inspired me. That's a good catchphrase for me to write somewhere. But you're willing. I'm willing. And the more, the older I get,

the more layers I'm peeling back, the more I'm realizing that it's just okay to be me. And sometimes that means saying something that might not please the other person or saying no. Or also I want to get, and I don't know if this is even possible with my personality trait. I want to get better at resting. I don't know how to do it. I'm so bad. Yeah. And I actually don't like it.

I don't really, I know. Do you know either? I think about work all the time, because I love it, how lucky. I'm sure we're not, we're not right. I don't think we're supposed to do that. I know. We're meant to be resting more, but I don't know how. I love, right, this is how.

But when I rest, I come up with brilliant ideas. Brilliant ideas. Yeah. I am so bad, right. So after I had a few good friends over on my birthday in the garden, we had lunch. We had lunch, because I don't like doing things at nighttime. So we had this lovely, lovely lunch. And it was so joyful, every bit of it gorgeous.

When they left, I am never happier than when my house is a shithole. And I have to clean the whole thing up. Therapeutic. I am like, and Jessie starts helping out. Nope. Go for a walk. I cannot wait to do ever. And I'm like a whirling dervish, just going around the kitchen, around the garden,

and picking up paper plates and cleaning and dishwashering. I love it. I need to be busy. I need to be doing things constantly. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. Well, I think for both of us, it's probably not a good thing because we're escaping something. We're on the run.

We're on the run. It's like if I sit down, I'll have to think and then I don't want to think about the things. Yeah. I'm pretty sure we're both escaping. We're on the run. We're Thelmer and Louise. But yeah, I like the fact that you talk about having therapy every week.

I've had therapy at times for kind of years at a time. I mean, obviously, recovery's, you know, group therapy of a sort. Yeah. Did that for years and years. And it helps me. So how does it help you? And do you feel you've still got things to talk about after a year? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I've not been in consistent therapy. I've sort of dipped in and out of it, done these extreme bits of different therapies. I've tried all sorts of things. I'm really open to try new things still. You know, I'll always try a new technique. It's very much kind of how the happy place festival was born, that there's a place where there's all these things that you can try. And see, because there's not one thing, it's not one size fits all.

I think you've got to find a thing that works for you. EMDR the most effective for you. It probably was in terms of panic. But I think in terms of just feeling happy in my own skin and liking myself, just finding a very good therapist, is the one. So I'm actually working with a therapist now that I've only probably been with for about six months, but we're on a really good role. Great. And something's shifting and it feels good. So, yeah, I feel very grateful.

But I have had like a whole year off. And I've just tried all sorts of things. And I'll always give things to go. And I also know the stuff that I can implement at home for free, like walking, big one. Walking on my own. Heaven. Love it. Dipping in and out of meditation.

I'm always very honest about the fact that I'm not a daily meditator. I so want to be though. Yeah, it's because we're not good at rest, so we're also not good at that. It's hard. But I did last night and I felt I benefited so greatly from it. Does it help you sleep? Helps me sleep, helps everything. Yoga, definitely.

I think that's quite meditative in its own way. Eating well. Eating well is a big one for me. I just wanted to give you a bit of a heads up that me and Fern do do a bit of a deep dive into eating disorders. and if that sounds like something that might be difficult for you, we've got timestamps and you can just skip past those bits. I had a bad past with food, so I think that's a big one. I want to touch on that.

Yeah. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, again, it's something that so many people tackle. And I read somewhere when you talk about it, you say, look, I'm over it, but I still deal with the consequences or I still kind of have to pull myself up a few times. Can you talk me through that? Because I think sometimes people don't really understand that.

They think when you're over it, you're over it. Well, exactly. And it's like addiction. I think it's very similar that you live alongside something when you've had, when you're in recovery from anything. And I had this sort of on-off period for about 10 years. It wasn't consistently 10 years. It was very extreme at the start of that 10 years

and then inconsistent bulimia. And I felt extremely uncomfortable talking about it actually until I guess the catalyst for me was reading Brynie Gordon's books because she's very open about it. We love Bridie. And then also talking to Elizabeth Day, who's one of my besties on her podcast.

That was the first time I'd publicly talked about it. And it sort of took the, the sort of spike out of the topic for me, just talking about it in a very everyday way. And now I feel really comfortable talking about it. It's funny, isn't it? Very comfortable. And a distance that is long enough away for me to do so.

But I had, yeah, a very dysfunctional relationship with food and fuelling my body. And I didn't even. binge massively. Sometimes I would a little bit. It's such a strange visceral feeling, the release that I would get from it. And it was secret. And I needed something at that point for me because everything was everybody else's. Yes. It was so public and up for grabs that this was a secret thing. And it gave me such a release of tension. And then it was just something. after a while that I would fall into if I was stressed.

So it wasn't every day. It was every day at the start. It was multiple times a day. But then in my late 20s it was a sort of reaction to stress. It was the only way I knew. So in my late 20s, I did this deep dive into really overcoming a bit of a phobia I had about food. And I cooked and I cooked. cooked and I cooked and I touched the food and I smelled the food and I healed myself. But I didn't

actually have any counselling for bulimia. I'm amazed by that. I didn't go into a rehab thing. I just deep dived into food. And I think it was really meeting my husband and my stepchildren where I was like, oh Christ, I'm like in charge of two kids here and I'm in charge of what they're eating, I need to sort my shit out and I wanted to have a baby. So my therapy was going for the extreme of cooking as much as I could all day every day. And it worked. And I have been healthily eating and, you know, I've certainly had dips, which I think is important to be honest about, where I've found it confusing or situations confronting or I've still. been scared of certain situations, but I feel physically the best I've ever felt in terms of how

I'm feeding my body, exercising my body, and the relationship I have with it. So for people that are going through it, you absolutely can get out of that habit because it is a horrible habit, a horrible cycle to be in. And it was ruling my life at one point. It was all day, every day. You can absolutely overcome it and it feels impossible when you're in it you think there is no way there is no way So was it your sort of stepkids that made you think

Right I've got to do something about it Definitely a big part of it You need a trigger to help you go right I don't think everyone does But it was a wake-up call to me Because you know I wasn't looking to meet anyone at that point in my life but I happened to meet someone with kids And it shifted a lot of things in my life

And I've been broody for years since I was a teenager. I was like, I want to have a baby. And then I met the person that I thought, oh, I could have a baby with this person. And I thought, I need to get my body in a place where I can do it. And I wasn't actively bulimic all the time at that point. But it was an occasional thing that I would lean on when I felt stressed.

And I just thought, this has got to go. And also I was, you know, going out drinking loads. Luckily, had never had a problem with alcohol. It's never really interested me. I would, like most people in their 20s, go out and get pissed watching a band or something. But even that shifted like, oh, I don't really want to do that anymore. I'm over that.

I just want to have cozy nights in and have family time. So it shifted a hell of a lot for me. And I'm very grateful for that. And I've stayed happily cozy at home ever since. Tell me about becoming a mum. Hmm. I mean, if it's something, you know, I guess you had like a soft launch with your stepchildren.

Yeah. But then you had your two, Rex and Honey. What's that meant to you? Oh my God. It's been, the whole thing has just been, you know, I've got to start with my stepkids because I have the most beautiful relationship with them. I love the bones of them.

And they've brought me so much joy and so much happiness. And I still think there's a long way to go when we talk about blended families and how amazing it can be, yes, it's complicated, yes, it requires an insane amount of communication and compromise and everything that we all go through.

But the joy those, they're adults now, have brought me, is insane. And now that we're at such a fun age, we have such a laugh. And I've, you know, I've known Lola, my stepdaughter's 19 now. When I met her, she was five. Wow.

She was teeny, teeny tiny kid. So I've seen her go through all of this, you know, go through puberty and then become a woman. And now we're out having a laugh together at dinner. And what a joy. It's been a blessing to have this inexplicable relationship with someone. It's not the same as having my own kids. It has a different tone to it, a different flavour. But it's so enjoyable and so beautiful.

And I certainly wouldn't be who I am today without my stepkids. There's no way. They've helped inform who I am as a baby. person. They fast-tracked me to being a responsible adult. They've made me accountable for my reactions to things. They're just, they're amazing. And I just, I love them. I feel so lucky they're in my life. And then having my own kids, I mean, how do you even describe the feeling of bringing life into the world, what a privilege it is, how do you describe how insanely difficult it is, how challenging it can be, how confronting it is,

how you have to learn so much overnight and continue to forever. You think there's a bit where you just stop learning and it's all like, oh, we're in the rhythm of it now, we're just parents. It's every bloody day. It's exhausting. But absolutely life-affirming. And I don't even have the words. Like, I don't have the words to sum it up.

It's all too big and all too overwhelming. And I just bloody love them so much. The very bones of them. I know. I mean, I remember once, and I can't think who said it, I feel like it was weirdly John Legend's wife, but she might have then taken the quote from someone else. Right.

The feeling of having kids is like having your heart beating outside of your chest all day every day. It's kind of terrifying and you don't feel. like there's enough protection around you and them and everything's a bit scary, but it's so intense and raw. I think it's really hard to put your finger on what it is and what it means to be a parent and a step-parent. They're the most important relationships in my life, without a doubt.

I mean, obviously you've been on this journey in yourself, And at the same time as that, you have interviewed some of the greatest thinkers, movers, shakers, philosophers, just people with amazing stories over the last six years. That's a lot of people. Can you give me any tools that you think, things that you've gone, oh my God, pickaxe and forehead. This tool is amazing. It's going to change my life. Yeah. And who was it from? I think there have been quite a few.

The ones that instantly spring to mind would be when we had Deepak Shopper on the podcast, we talked a lot about panic and panic attacks. And one thing he said that I kind of knew, but I needed confirming in the context of panic, was whatever you resist persists. So in the thick of a panic attack, we were going, I don't want this, why is this happening? I'm a freak. I need this to go away now. What breathing technique can I do? Oh my God, that didn't work. It's now even worse. The best thing you can do is to surrender to it and go, I'm having a panic attack. And it's all right. It's not going to be forever. It might be undulating. It might go on for longer than I want. But actually, that level of not resisting it has helped me hugely, hugely. And it's not. saved a lot of time, so I'm glad of that one. Did you, on that panic attacks, did you see the Australian,

was it an Australian guy who was having a panic attack while delivering the weather forecast on an Australian television? Oh, I need to see this. And he talked about it previously, so it was a known thing on the show. And I think he'd sat at the desk and talked about his panic attacks, but he actually had one while he was doing the weather. And he had to say, I'm just going to hand it back over to you, because I'm just having a panic attack right now

and I need to go and deal with that. It was so brilliant. How cool that he did that. It was so brilliant. And I feel like people like you, people like Deepak Chopper explaining what to do, has made it part of the conversation. It is incredible that.

It's so good because so many people are having them all day every day. Yeah. And the thing that... I possibly not even realising that that's what it is, you know. Yeah. And I think the thing that keeps... them going is the fact that you feel like no one else is having them and you're the only person and you can't cope and everyone else is coping. So actually if we all just go, oh, I'm having them

too or I used to have them, whatever it is, takes the heat out of it a little bit, I think. Yeah, that's amazing. I need to see that clip. I'll find it in a sentence. Yeah, I need to see that. So who else? I really loved when we had Elizabeth Gilbert on, who I am in love with. I desperately need to interview her again, like once wasn't enough. That's amazing, isn't it? It just wasn't enough. An hour was not long enough. And she's also kind of gone through a whole metamorphosis since I interviewed her.

So I need to meet her again and talk about that. But she was talking about when her girlfriend was gravely ill and she knew she didn't have long. And it was all really stressful and it was all really heartbreaking. she was sat one time by her bed and like all of us had a sort of bulging inbox and a text inbox full of messages and WhatsApp whatever and just went delete like none of this matters none of this shit matters because this matters and although we might not be able to actively do that that helps in those times where I'm trying to cook the kids tea I know I've got about 10 emails

I probably should have replied to already and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and this feeling in my chest here is really fizzing and oh my God it's just like it doesn't actually matter it doesn't matter it really doesn't matter if I get back to them in a week

whatever so that was sort of life changing in a way that is very relatable in sort of everyday life have you got plans for more like more happy place Yeah. Tell me. I've got all the plans. Like, I can't sleep at night because of that a lot of the time. I'm thinking and I'm thinking and I'm brainstorming. And also, I'm constantly, sadly reminded of how many people are having a shit time. Yes. And suffering and don't have access to the resources they need or the therapy they need or whatever. And I certainly can't fix anywhere near any of it.

but it's constantly motivating that we need more positive spaces, places for people to be able to have decent conversation, be able to truly express how they're feeling, be able to learn from great minds, people that we're trying to bring to the table at the festival and on the podcast and in a little YouTube series that we're doing. But I'm always thinking up new ways that we could do that. And, you know, part of it is because I want to help.

But I want to be brutally honest that part of it is because I'm deeply ambitious. Because I am excited to do this work because I love it. And also because, like, my nans didn't have the opportunity to really have a job. You know, they were at home. And I feel like a bit of a duty in my female lineage to really maximize the opportunity. that I've got and work and work and work to see what my get anywhere near my full potential will try and understand what it is. I think we've all got way more potential than we believe. I'm not any different to anyone else. I think it's just about giving things a try.

I also feel like, you know, you started in a business that you loved, which then fucking crucified you. Yep. And took you down. Yeah. And then, but you still didn't give up. This is the other thing that, you know, you're not lucky. You made your own luck. You created space. You took risks. You worked hard. And you're constantly learning about yourself. Yes. And you love yourself warts and all. Yeah. Yeah, I'm getting there with that one. I'm getting there with that one. But I think that's, look at you. It's enabled me to try something new because I think that's where the self-respect has come in, that I'm, I've created something where I don't feel ghastly, whereas back in the day, I didn't have enough self-respect. So I was being treated badly at work

a lot of the time. And I was running back for more like you do to an awful ex-boyfriend. Yes. You know that they're not going to call. You know that they're going to be a bit dismissive. And you keep going back. Keep going back. Please like me. Oh my gosh. But what if I'm like this? Maybe you're like me now. Do you like me now? Like I'm a different iteration of myself. Could you love me now? And we've all done it in relationships. I was doing it at work. What I do is like, like, go back and hug that little fern. Yeah, me too. Me too. But now, no, no, no. Never again. No, no, no. I can't. I can't do it. I don't want to do it. And if I find myself being pulled back there, occasion I might get offered a TV thing. And my ego goes, oh, maybe they like me.

now. Oh my God, they like me. Maybe I'm not this weird freak. And I'm like, halt. I think, Fan, I was just going to say, if there's something that if someone was watching, say they were kind of 30s, 40s, unhappy with where they're at, and wanting to look at kind of doing something different, a bit like you did when you had that pivot. Is there anything from what you've said today that you think might help or any words of advice? I think especially for women, like just try it. I think we've all got such imposter syndrome that we can't. And fear.

It feels unsafe. It feels unsafe. And it is a bit because you don't know. There is risk. You have to take a risk. If you're unhappy, I still believe it's worth taking a risk because you're better off than being stagnant. and feeling shit. But you're paying a price either way, right?

You really are. So I think it's worth trying that there's definitely going to be massive road bumps and failure and getting things wrong and that's okay. I'm saying that to myself as well. That going wrong is fine and that it's the most important thing I've learned

whether it's about changing lanes or just feeling a bit better is that we can do all the things, whether it's yoga, meditation, smithering ourselves in rose quartz, drinking green juice, whatever the fuck it is, hanging wind chimes up. We can do all the things. But unless we are willing to learn to like ourselves, cultivate a bit of self-compassion, forgive ourselves, hopefully end up liking ourselves, you won't touch sides.

None of it will touch sides. Because constantly people go to me, oh, I tried wellness. or whatever, just doesn't work for me, it's shit. And it's like, if we're doing all the things, but we don't like ourselves, it will not do anything. Because you're still there. You still feel like shit. You know, it's a bit like in an anonymous fellowship

when somebody moves country. And they go, I still feel terrible. I'm in this amazing country, but it's because you're still there. You're still there. Unless you do the work on yourself. You and your problems have followed you. Yeah, you're going to be wherever you are. You've got to change something inside.

You just got to like yourself. That is, I think, the key to so much of our... And it's hard sometimes. Ease in our bodies and minds is we don't like ourselves. And it's really hard. And I'm not sat here saying that I've nailed it at all. But I'm absolutely cognizant of where I need to get to in terms of liking myself. You're on that journey.

I'm on the journey. I'm on the journey. Well, I love you. I love you. Aren't we lucky? I'm so pleased you're in my life. I'm so pleased you're in my life. I'm so pleased you're in my life.

I'm so pleased you're in my life. Thank you, Sean. Thank you to being this. I mean, obviously, I'm invested in Fern. My heart and my soul. I feel like she's a very, very special woman with an enormous heart who's been through some incredibly traumatic times, picked herself back up, dusted herself back off,

tried to help her heal herself, looked around for different ways to do that, and is now sharing such wisdom with the world to try and help other people get the support and healing that she did on her journey. What I love about Fern, is she still on a journey? And I can't wait to maybe do this interview again in five years and see where she's at then. I've just got a feeling that, yeah, she's just,

on a very good journey and she's going to be in an amazing place. But I feel very warm and gooey. And I really love that woman. I bet you do too, right? We're taking a quick break to talk about today's sponsor Fiverr. Have you experienced the immediate panic when you're asked to create something on the computer, but you have absolutely no idea how to do it. For me, it's social media.

But I have realised that I can realize. on Fiverr. It's an online marketplace. It's got talented freelancers who specialize in different areas from social media and graphic design to marketing, website building and coding. I don't know what I mean. But with Fiverr, I can leave it to the experts and focus on the stuff I do best. So if you want to give Fiber a try, and I think you should, search fiver.com or click the link in the description and use the code divina at the checkout for 10% off your first order. That's F-I-V-E-R-R.com.

And don't forget, the second art.