Begin Again with Davina McCall - Gary Lineker: The Private Battles Behind a Public Life

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

What happens when you stop seeing your hardest tests as failures and begin to see them as a life well lived? In this episode of Begin Again, Gary Lineker joins Davina McCall for a deeply personal conversation about fatherhood, relationships, football, leaving the BBC and learning to embrace change. Gary opens up about the terrifying moment his son George was diagnosed with leukaemia at just six weeks old, the fear his family lived with during seven months at Great Ormond Street Hospital, and why they “could never relax” even after returning home. He also reflects on his two marriages and challenges the idea that divorce means failure. Gary reveals why he considers both marriages a success, how he has remained close to his ex-wives, and why, after years of being single, he has become comfortable with his own company, while remaining open to finding love again. After 30 years at the BBC and 25 years presenting Match of the Day, Gary shares what it feels like to step into a new chapter, why life outside the BBC means no longer “treading on eggshells”, and how he built Goalhanger into a hugely successful podcast business. From his father quietly believing in his football talent to becoming a dad himself, this is a warm and moving conversation about family, divorce, love, resilience, career change and finding the courage to begin again. 🌟Like, comment and subscribe for more honest conversations about purpose, resilience, love, loss and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸www.instagram.com/beginagain  🎥https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm  Follow Gary here: https://www.instagram.com/garylineker/?hl=en  We'd love you to share your Get Busy Living stories with us at https://getbusyliving.beginagainshow.com/ (00:00) Intro (01:28) Gary’s Latest TV Show (05:35) How Gary Built Goalhanger From the Ground Up (10:56) Gary’s Son George’s Battle With Leukemia (18:35) Monzo GBL Ad (20:06) How Gary’s Childhood Led Him to Football (23:19) How Harry Kane Broke Gary’s Record (24:50) Why Gary Ended His Football Career (29:35) Monzo 90 Days Ad (30:42) How Gary Made the Leap Into TV (36:05) How Gary Became the Face of Match of the Day (39:57) Why Gary Left the BBC for Netflix (42:18) What Gary Really Thinks of England’s World Cup Performance (45:09) Why Gary Wants the Super-Rich to Pay More Tax (47:11) How Two Marriages and Divorces Played Out in the Public Eye (51:34) Why Gary Is Still Single Download Monzo. Monzo Current Accounts are for 16+ and UK residents. Ts&Cs Apply. Join the 'Say Yes Club' and hear more about our events here - https://events.beginagainshow.com/  Mastercard's exchange rate applies. Monzo Current Accounts are for 16+ and UK residents. Ts&Cs Apply Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca. Davina and Linneka who linked up so well for Begin Again. Gary Linneka has etched his trademark

and Gary Linneker relishing the service. That one was a gift but he was there. Superbly done. Linnika! Chances today are all ending up in the back of the net. Gary's coming home. This is so exciting. So first of all I just want to let you know Gary Linneker, man of the people. See you. He's got a taxi. Forget the man of the people. He's not at all.

Look, he's giving a tip. Man of the people I take that back. I know. Gary. I know. I know I am. Gary. I'm not happy now. I'm so excited. That's it. Come on, Gary!

I'm quite excited. Can you tell? You seem a little bit excited. It's just that I've known you forever. Yeah. But I don't know you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's quite a funny thing, isn't it? Yeah.

That we have met occasionally over the years. Yeah. We've done various shows together and we saw each other at the NTAs last year, which is brilliant. But it's an honour to have you here. I think for somebody to still be relevant in the public eye after such a long and illustrious career is worth celebrating. Well, thank you. Well, thank you. Likewise.

Still here. We're still here. She's still going. Still punch you. So I'd like to talk to you first off because you've got this new show on ITV. And I was a bit like, you know, how many ideas can there be for TV?

How unique can it be? Oh my God, I got presenters envy. Did you? It's so good. It's a lot of fun. So tell us a bit about it. It's on ITV. It's on ITV.

It'll be coming in September, early September, I think. What day? What time? Saturdays and Sundays for four weeks Prime time of course Obviously, this is Gary Lineker Come on, come on We don't do anything but prime time

And you don't have to do anything except for enjoy it I'm so jealous That's very true It's a bit It's watching people Mostly have fun But also face their fears And all sorts of different challenges

So it's basically We've got ten celebrities And these 10 big yellow boxes It's a bit like telephone boxes, but you can't see out of them. So they wield these trucks around these boxes around the country, and the celebrities inside the box don't know when the box opens, where they are, what they're about to face, and it could be anything. And I don't want to give obviously too much of us people,

because part of the surprise is mostly the fun of the show. But some of the challenges are, you know, the I-360 at Bright, for example, We managed to get one of them on top of that in the sky And they walk out and it's like Wow, what have I got to do? And there's also a challenge after that So, you know, they come out of the boxes They're in front of a botlin's crowd and all sorts of.

I won't tell all of them, but they really went for it. I mean, it's the kind of show you have to throw yourself into, I think, as a celebrity. Definitely. They are having to. take themselves out of their comfort zones. And they're usually used to public arenas, but this is next level what you put them through.

Well, some of them. Some of them are actually just a bit of fun or some of them are actually a little bit thoughtful. They've got to work themselves through something. So it's not all horrible, but there's always a degree of the fear of the unknown as they step out of the box. It was something totally different.

They hadn't really done anything like that before. I've obviously hosted shows outside of football, but something like this was sort of gamey reality show was different. I mean, you've done lots of. And it's a huge, it's on such a huge scale. And you are having to think out of the box. Indeed. Very good.

Boom. Do you want me to write for you? I mean, there are a million pounds, right? You should do a lot of presenting. You should just try to present me. Have a go at that. I mean, you've had such a varied career because this is you're in your 60s now

and you are presenting like a mega entertainment TV program. That's so inspiring for other people, I think, as we age, to see you living your best life. It's still possible. Yes. pensioners that we can still soldier on. I'd like to talk to you as well about Goal Hangout. Am I right saying that you set up that business like 12 years ago?

About that. It was originally a sports production business with my partner, Tony Paster, who I was stayed in touch with. We used to work together at the BBC a long time ago. And then he was head hunted by ITV to run football there, to be head of football. So he did that for many years. But we all stayed in touch. And then we met one day and talked about doing something.

something together. He'd already started on his own doing this production company, but we joined, we made lots of sports docs, we did, you know, Rooney, Kevin Peterson, Anthony Joshua, did three with him. You did three documentaries with Anthony Joshua, yeah. Did you? Yeah, back about 11 years ago, 10 years ago, yeah, when he was making his name. So we did a few of those and then and then we discovered podcasts. I did, I did a, I did a, a podcast because we thought, what is this pocketist? Shall we do one? And we're going, yeah, maybe.

So we thought we'd do something. I did something with Danny Baker called Behind Closed Doors, like Footballer meets Football fan. And Danny's, you know, really funny. He's so funny. And he did okay. And we thought, we got a book deal. And it was very early days of podcasting.

We thought there might be something in this. And then we'd always done sport, though. And then Tony was in a bookshop. And he was a big World War Tourifice, you know, and he was looking for a book on World War II and he called me, he said the top four books at four of the books in the top ten are about World War II.

I went, oh great, because I'm not really about fussed about World War II. So I said, oh, great. And he said, so I thought I'd look for a podcast and I can't find one. I went, oh, that's a shame. And he went, shall we do one? I went, on World War II. I said, we've only ever done sport.

And in the end, we did, we did with Al Murray, the comedian, who's a massive World War II officiado. and his friend James Holland and it proved really quite popular. It's niche subject, but it does really well. And we have a World War II festival every year now. Yeah, for that podcast, yeah.

And then from there, we went from James Holland to Tom Holland. At school? Yeah. As well as so interesting. Sorry, James Holland to Tom Holland. So James Holland said Tom, his brother wants to do one on all history, and then it took a while to get his partner. and in the end we said,

well, we're a historian, mate. Who do you want to be with when you're in the pub? He went, oh, Dominic Sandbrook. So you could say the rest is history, but you know I've used that one a few times before. But the rest is, is such a brilliant precursor to anything. In the end, it is. And it's quite interesting because we undenade about whether to use it.

Again. Again, because the rest of history is obvious, because it's actually a phrase. Whereas after that, the next one, we did was politics. And there's only about four of us in the office back then. And we sort of, we were, should we do it with the rest is politics? Because it doesn't really make sense, but can we build a brand?

And we went with the brand idea and proves to be good, yeah. I mean, it's really works. And you know that they're all from the same stable. You know what you're going to get. You've built something you can trust. I think it's, yeah. No, I'm really proud. I'm really proud of what we've built out of nowhere.

but it didn't come about by accident but it wasn't a like preconceived plan to build this podcast empire, yeah. What's up your sleeve for the rest is? Up my sleeve. Well, we've been looking for a while at things like food and how you can do food because obviously food's very visual

and but having said that the podcast world now, as we can see here, everything is now filming. It is incredible, it's like a TV show. And we've obviously gone down that route as well. So food's impossible And we're looking at one about power And also true crime is a possibility But there's nothing absolutely immediate

At the present But there's a couple trying We're doing a few tryouts and things like that But I like going clubbing So if you could do the rest is raving The rest is raving The rest is raving Whoop

It's just been me in a cup Just do that. I'll have a really good time. I think it'll be all right for about three episodes. Thanks, Gary. After that, I think you might run out of something to talk about. I won't be talking. I just be dancing.

Oh, okay. It's great telly. I think it's not only is it a good brand, but it's also been such a massive success. I mean, it was something like 371% like increase. As a business, it's been incredible. It's just been nuts, right? You were talking about four of you in the office. How many are you now?

I think we're closing in on 100. But it's lovely. I go in the office and there's just such a really young people. We're employing young people. They're enjoying it. Really diverse. Super intelligent young people who are really enjoying their job. And that gives us so much satisfaction.

It's great. It's lovely to be around young people. It helps keep you young. Yeah. you got four boys. Yeah, I know. Michelle and you had four beautiful boys. How do they keep you grounded?

Quite easily by taking a piss out of me. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, what do they do? Oh, I don't know. They don't appreciate my dad jokes. They rip me for that. You're a dad joke guy? I love dad jokes.

It's almost like it's compulsive. I'm not actually telling the jokes, but it will always be like a ridiculous puner. There will be one before the end of the people. Good, okay, I'll look forward to that. I'd like to talk, in fact, about you and Michelle, you had your boys, and I know that George, when he was quite young, he got, was it leukemia? Yeah, yeah, very young.

And he was very, very poorly. Yeah. But you were at the height of your football career and, you know, a dad and with Michelle, like, how did you cope with that? Well, we both cope with it differently Michelle's more spiritual than I I'm kind of atheist I don't believe in any of that

So So we dealt with it in different ways Was that difficult? Not really, no Because it was equally difficult for both of us So I mean he was about six years Only six weeks old, six weeks old

And he had He's so vulnerable He had this little bump on his head And we thought, it's a bit odd But it wasn't just a bump, it was like really hard So we thought, I would take him in to see, get it checked And they looked at it, they said, Oh, it looks like this kind of skin condition

That we'll take a little biopsy And we'll report back in about 10 days. So we went home, blah, blah, blah, 10 days goes on He's now got lots of the bumps all over his head. He's like a bit. His head was a bit like a golf ball. And it was really weird.

So we were obviously worried. So we went back to the, and there were two doctors in there. And they said, well, first thing, it does look like it's this skin condition. It's come back as. So he thought, well, that's a relief. And then I said, well, I said,

you say that, but, you know, the last two, three days, he really does appear quite unwell. And his glands are up a little bit under his arms. You could feel that. I could feel that and his groins. And they said, oh, okay.

So they went, let's have a look. So they took his little outfit off and he took his nappy off. And they started feeling around and I'll never forget it. They just, I mean, they just looked to each other. And they went, Mr. and Mrs. Lineker, I'm really sorry, but this does appear

to be something much more serious. It was like, what do you mean? So, he said, well, we need to do some tests, obviously, but this does look like leukemia, so we've gone. I mean, yeah, it was just like being whacked. And then, so I knew leukemia was a blood cancer, but I didn't know anything else, really, at that point in my life. So I said, well, what does that mean?

So, well, we need to do some tests. The first thing is clearly very unwell. We need to get him within an hour, or even Great Ormond Street and where he spent the next seven months. And it was, it was so, it was hard. And also being in the public high made it some time, you know, most of the time in life it's, it's really good to be in the public. Everyone's lovely and we're, you know, we're lucky.

We're blessed lives and it's amazing. But this, I mean, we were in there, I was in there all, most of the night and I only made a couple of calls to family and to Terry Venables who was the Tottenham manager because I was playing for Tomlin now weren't you? So Terry said right he said Michelle's going to stay with him because it's just room for her I'm going to go home and then I'm going to he said you said I'm going to pick you up in the morning I'll take you to the hospital

and I said thank you and Terry came and I opened the curtains and there were hordes of paparazzi and tell it and it's like so I'm dealing with what I've you know this absolute terrifying news and but he took me to the hospital and then for about three weeks I was there all day with Michelle

and then I'd go home later and night she'd stay there were ups and downs they were incredibly honest doctors as they are a matter of facts and the next morning when the test came through said, right, we know it's acute myeloid leukemia, blah, blah, blah, and they said under these circumstances we would give him between a 10 and 20% chance. A survived.

I'm making it, yeah. And that is like, it's hard to describe that emotion because most of it was just fear. Yeah. Fear, you know, you just go. And I used to have these recurring dreams of, like, I'm not. like carrying a like coffin, little tiny art coffins were. There was just, but even though we were told, we were told at least twice that he might not make it through the night.

But he did and he kind of, whatever was thrown at him, he got, he got through, but the other parents weren't as lucky as us next to us in the ward. Yes, I mean, when you experienced that as well, it's, when you left the hospital and you knew he was through the war, worst, how did that change? Because I think an experience like that of coming that close to losing someone you love or supporting someone trying to help through something, changes your whole life, right? It has to. Yeah. It has to. It's obviously your imminent life because you have to work around things. And also, as we know, the most important thing with cancer is to get the patient into

remission and they got George into remission quickly, that was important. But then you have to have other courses of chemo. And then it's a question of once you've, the cancer's not there. It's whether it comes back. Yes. And, you know, even when you leave hospital, which we're seven months and we're all clear. But at the same time, we do know there's a serious chance that it could come back. So they say five years for cure, five years post-treatment for cure.

but, you know, we had four sons in the end and if any of the other three had a cold or anything like that you wouldn't think anything of it. But when George it was like, oh my, I always got a cold. Is it? Right. Is it like a spot on his face? Like a little spot because of his head thing,

you go, and you never really relax on it. But we were one of the lucky ones. A lot of the parents did they didn't. And however really was, you just clung on to a little bit of and that, I think, got us through it in different ways. I was always more comfortable and it helped me. I found to talk about it. Michelle couldn't talk about it.

So, you know, we dealt with things in our different ways, albeit together. What's one thing you'd love to be able to say you've done? Well, Monzo's sponsoring begin again to help us win back some time so we can do more of what we love. like finally doing that thing. I want to know what that thing was for you. Let's have a look. Who have we got? Hi, Davina.

I'm turning 50 next May, so I've written a list of 50 things to do before I'm 50 to push myself out of my comfort zone and be a bit braver. One of them is learning to skateboard. I've always thought skateboarders were so cool and no one in my family thinks I can do it. Come on.

I'm not expecting tricks and flicks but I'd love to race along the promenade with the wind in my hair. I want to be a skating granny. From Kate. Yes! I love this. This is so good. Because it's cool.

It's something you kind of think you can't do because of your age, but you're going to do it anyway. Yes. Look, have you got a massive milestone coming up? This might be the perfect excuse to say yes to doing the thing that you've always wanted to do. And this is exactly the thing that Monzo is here to help with. They put our money to work in the background. Sorted, saved, sent exactly where it needs to go. So our energy is free to say yes to more things in life.

Join the Begin Again Say Yes Club. I'll pop a link in the description. Monzo Current Accounts for UK residents age 16 plus T's and C's Apply. Two and five Canadians will hear the words you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer.

Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca. Parenting, you, there's a little bit that I have met you and talked to you. We've talked about being parents, and I know what a great thing. dad you are and how plugged in you are but i i know that your parents were um amazing can you just talk to me a bit about the influence that your parents had on you when you were a kid because you are a lot of your mum but your dad's work ethic you know he was a car after but also he sacrificed a lot for you right oh very much so um i'm definitely more my mum's personality because She's always quite calm, whereas my dad's a bit more fiery.

And he's a market trader and a card player and a drinker. And he lived life to life to the max, but he worked his socks off. And they used to go and watch me play all the time. And my brother, Wayne, wherever we played. How old were you when you started knowing that you loved football? Well, it's a little bit different to now because you didn't really play any kind of, competitive football until you were about under 11. So it would have been 9, 10, around that age that by the time I was probably 12, 13, people were going,

I was scoring, like, ridiculous amounts of goals. But your dad saw it before then, didn't he? Well, he did, but because, I mean, we moved out of the city to a place called Kirby Muxlow, just outside the city centre. and I passed the 11 plus and it meant that I would go to I only had one choice of school because of where we were about

where we just moved to and that was a rugby playing school and my dad said I know you know no you know he said that happened to me he said that's not happening to you so did you cook to like kicked a ball about

with your dad could he see that he must have done I had a conversation it's one of the last conversations we ever had he died about about 10 years ago and one of the last conversations

we had was you know we were talking about my career and that's nice and I went you know you did all these things because they moved house for me and I went to live with my grandparents for eight months which was great because boy could she make a cake so anyway so they moved

and I lived my grandmother parents just so I could go and play for a football in school and I had this conversation with him almost on his desk And I said, you know, to do that, you must have saw something. He went, I always knew. I went, I went, well, why didn't you ever tell me? He said, well, no, you've got to keep grounded and all this. But, I mean, I didn't know.

I didn't know until I was well into my career that I, yeah. But he always, you know, he was the only person on the planet that backed me to be the when the Golden Boot in 1986, I think you got about 16 to 1 or something. So, there you go. Oh my God, that's amazing. While we're on that, I just want to say you were the highest goal scorer until this World Cup.

Oh, no. What was the... Because, you know, Gary, that is, well, first off, well done. For lasting that long. Yes. It's a record ad for a long time. It is incredible. Anyway, and well done, Harry Kane.

But you were really lovely about. about him at that moment. Quite rightly so, because he's not only a wonderful footballer and a brilliant, brilliant goal scorer and hugely talented, but, you know, he's sound, isn't he? He's a really good bloke. You can tell. You can tell.

I mean, do you know, I've never met him? No, seriously. No, I've met lots of... I've met lots of... God, if we didn't know that, I'd never... We'd have made that happen. And we've flown him... We've flown him... We've flown him a thousand miles from Munich to be here with you tonight.

I'd love to look. This is your life. I love that bloody show. Let's do that again. Amen. Yeah. God, we're showing our age. I always thought about it, because I never fancied that this is your life. So they don't tell you, but my agent was under strict instructions if they ever asked. Yeah. No, never.

You imagine someone turning up that you don't like? Yes. What are you doing here? Yeah, I know. That must have happened sometimes. Oh, it absolutely must have happened. because they obviously genuinely surprise you. God, there's so much heart.

There's not enough time in my life to talk to you. But what I want to get under the skin of with you, Gary, is that all the emotions and you've had a lot of loss in your life. You're gifted enormous things through your talent and you're playing and you're presenting and your business and everything. But you also leave... big things and move on. So in terms of beginning again,

these are the things, these are the reasons why people stay stuck. Somewhere they don't like, some of them are not enjoying because they love the people, they love the office, they're going to.

You're just like, nope, leaving, gone, gone, next thing. Yeah, it's, it's, I admire it. Well, you've got no choice with football, right? So because, I mean, you can stay in football,

which I did in a different way, but you can't continue to be football because you know, you come to a certain age where you can't function as well. But what's that feel like? I think I was, I'm not going to say lucky because I didn't enjoy it

because I was injured for almost the last two years that I played or didn't play. I was in Japan. And I only played a handful of games there and I spent pretty much the last year of football trying to get myself fit in rehab. And it was grueling and it was boring

and I was without the buzz of a game at the end of the week and I just got me to the stage where I thought, I'm ready to do something else and you know you've got to because there's a lot of life after football you can't just quit.

I mean, the players now earned significant amounts of money that they probably could. You couldn't have done, even though I was well paid relatively in my day, it doesn't compare with the modern day. So, you know, there's a lot of life. So I was already planning on, going into the media side of things because I looked at things like tennis and golf and

other cricket and the people that ran the shows were all former play. David Gower in cricket, Sue Barker in tennis, pretty much all of them in golf with former players. So I thought if I could get into the media but not only as a pundit, which was just starting to be quite a big thing, I thought if I could possibly be a possible, present as well it might give me some form of longevity. And you had a chat with some of the presenters, didn't you, to kind of say, what, you know, what you're, I was keen to learn.

And even when we're, even when I was a player, I used to sit with the camera crews or the radio people or some of the journalists, see how they did their columns and opened the themselves. I was quite curious. I was always curious. I think, yeah, I've definitely always been curious about all sorts of things. Sometimes not known. Sometimes not for the better.

And so you end up realizing, well, okay, I can make this jump from football to not just being a pundit, but actually being a host on a sports program. I quickly do just want to talk about what it's like. So you'd been in Japan, but when you left the UK, because there is something I don't understand how much you would grieve leaving a group of people that you've been. with through thick and thin through all those letdowns and triumphs. Yeah, go on. Football is that that does change all the time. It's always transient, right.

Always, you know, you move clubs. Some players have one career, what, you look, a long career at one club. And I suppose that would apply more to them. But even then it's, you look at a squad now of a team, a big team now and compare it with six years' time. There won't be many left. There won't be, you know, there won't be,

they'll be kind of probably a handful of players that are still there. So it's something you get used to. You get suddenly, suddenly you find a new mate and then he's gone. Yeah. And sometimes you stay in touch. And with others, you just don't.

So in a funny kind of way, it's like prepping you for all the change that you have in your life anyway. It's like, oh, change. I've changed living where I live. I've changed where my family all live. We all move. Well, I played, you know,

I played for a few different clubs in two different, countries are that I've signed from here as well. So I think it probably, it's not, it wasn't part of the plan thinking, well, this will prepare me for life, obviously. But I think it does. I think it does a little bit. You know, you're suddenly in an environment, you're in a different country and you've, you've got to get on.

You've got to learn the language. You've got, you know, live the culture, which was quite easily in Barcelona. Yeah. And Japan as well, I would say. Barcelona. I love Barcelona. It's a great city. I love Barcelona.

Oh my God. So brilliant. Second hand. So as you know, I've been trying out Monzo sponsors of this podcast. And because I've just been to a festival, whoop-whoop, I thought I'd tell you what it does abroad. Now, you know that thing where you used to have to call the bank before you flew just to tell them that you were leaving the country? Not anymore. It's so good with Monzo.

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life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world. free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcf walk.ca.ca. When WestJet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel.

While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. How did you go from Japan to TV?

Well, I'd already started planning to do things. And I think it's, I get a lot of, I'm sure you do, a lot of people say, how do I get into the media world? How do I do it track? And I've got, how do you get into sports reporting? I said, well, you know, just watch as much as you can, write things, practice when you can, maybe try and get into some charity radio, hospital radio, local radio, school stuff,

anything that you can do, and maybe you'll get your chance, or you can score 40 or goals for England. So, which is my... Gary! No, but it's true, that was my way in. I was lucky because of that. So, you know, if I'd have just been, you know,

a regular player, I'd have been so successful, it's true. You weren't lucky. I was lucky to be born good at football. Yeah. So, yeah. But I have been lucky. I've had an amazing life.

Amazing life. You've worked hard. Yes, but lots of people work hard. Yeah, that's true. I was born with a gift. You were. I was born with a gift to score goals. And that gave me a massive, massive star in life.

Yeah. Big advantage. Yeah. And I'm aware of how lucky I've been, I think. I think also you were lucky because, and now I'm telling you, you're lucky, but you worked hard and you got to where you got to with your scoring goals. But also, you are a good communicator. It wasn't when I was young, though.

Really? So shy when I... Yeah, I remember... Are you shy? Yeah, I was terribly shy in my, you know, late teens and early 20s. I was kind of a very late developer as well, so... Yeah, I was always a bit... I overcame that.

I'm definitely not too shy now. But... And people go, yeah, you're not bloody shy. But I was when I was young. But I think all the traveling and all the experience that I have helped that, yeah. So how did you get into kind of the... BBC or did you start at the bead? I did a couple of bits for various, I think I did a little bit for ITV, a couple of things.

And then BBC wanted to, we had a conversation. Brian Barber was head of sport at that point and Brian was keen to get me in. And it involved doing quite a bit of punditry for the start whilst I learnt the trade of presenting, which I did on radio. So Radio 5. And let's say I wasn't very good. I was a rabbit in the headlights, particularly when the TV started.

So, you know, it's the difficult to add out, I didn't learn like a lot of people do on some little show that no one ever watches. I was learning on football, which is watched by a lot. I think when I started presenting, the second show I ever did was the highlights of England, Scotland

in the Euros in 1996. And there were 11 million people washing it. That's the second show I'd ever done. God! I didn't know that at the time, but I assumed it'd be a biggie because England's Scotland and it was such a huge game. It was, you know, the Gaza moment and the dentist chair and all that

celebration. So it was a baptism of fire. I wasn't brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, but I wasn't quite bad enough for them to give up on me. So they gave me time and there were so many times that.

I started to present football focus, which was my first real regular television slot. And I'd drive home sometimes at Saturday, lunchtime after the show, thinking I'm never going to be able to do this live thing, listening to people talking in my ear. You know exactly what it's right. But in the end, you get to enjoy it, and it's part of the fun. I mean, I was going to say,

now, hit an account and all this. Right. And now, if I have to do something that's recorded, I know. I'm like, like, what, we've got to do it again. boring. It's not. It's not.

Well, I hope it's not. People will decide. But it is funny. I mean, at least this, it does feel, we're doing it as life. Yeah. But when they go, actually, could we do another take of that?

And you're like, oh God. It's not that I'm not grateful, but it's just when you're used to just doing this is it, it's gone, and break gone. I much prefer doing the live. In that sense, for the buzz

it's good you know but I've done a lot of pre-recorded and obviously the box that's about to come out was pre-recorded but again it's as live it's as live because you can't repeat the stunts and the games and the exercises so there's even though

there are lots of times you do the show and then you've got to wait while they set up the next challenge etc right but so they're long days but then matches they were long days yeah very long days You know what's quite funny is how many boxes you have in your life? Because you've often talked about.

Yeah, because I was, yeah, the old one, born to be in the box. Yeah. Learned to be on the box. Soon to be in a box. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. It's only a marathon. It's closer all the time.

But yeah, and then to get a show called the box. Yeah, to get the show called the box. I know. Yeah. That was a natural fit. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. So then you become a pundit. and how long were you with the BBC, like 20 years?

Overall, almost 30. I started in about 95 and finished in 25, so that's 30, yeah. And it was 25 years... I thought 95 was yesterday. That's what's so mad. I know, it's mad, how quickly it goes. But we're still here. Yeah, because it was 25 years of match of the day,

and I started that when Des left in 99. Des. Des, Des was Des was the master. I learned a lot from Des. Yeah. Being alongside him because I did two years

as punner truth for much the day and Des was in the chair and, you know, talk about calm and the calmness, yeah. And a humor that I think,

you can't learn humor but he taught me to be brave enough not to worry about trying to have a bit of fun. And he says so many sports presenters he said, they're good. He said, but they're safe and they're serious.

And he said, it'll give you an edge. And I went with that. And sometimes, you know, you try that silly pun at the end of the show. If it makes three people happy in the country, it's, that's satisfactory. You know, it might make a lot of people go, oh, here he goes again. Yeah, but that's good. But that's fine. It's good, yeah.

Do you think that you've helped other presenters? Obviously, you know, we're getting to the stage now. where we've got other people, like you said, always kind of saying to us, like, how do you do it? How have you got on? Like, what can I learn from you? And that you've done the same as Des did for you

for other people. Like, can we talk about Micah? Yeah, of course. Please tell me he's as lovely as I think he is. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but he's even more lovely than... Oh, God. Gary, did you see my face fall for a moment?

No, Micah's great. I mean, hopefully you won't listen to this. He won't be able to get out of the door. Is he hilarious? Because his laugh, honestly, I think I would... No, he's a lot of fun. He's got an amazing presence and real energy. And he's the reason why it took quite a long time

to do a football pod because I wanted to get my car. I recognised it quite early when he... I'd never met before he started doing match of the day. He did a few shows and I... Did you see it? Immediately. Fairly immediately. Yeah.

Yeah. And he's grown into it more and more. So he's just one of those. He's got such a great enthusiasm. And he can turn it on for the, when it, I mean, for example, during the summer, we did the show, we did for Netflix. I mean, it was amazing. It was really amazing, by the way.

Congratulations. Thank you. It couldn't have gone better. Yeah. So Michael was obviously a key part of that. But he was also at home because he was doing. the, they were doing it from, BBC were doing it from Salford.

So in the green box and the time changes make that a lot of the nights that he would then come and do our show from his, when he got home, from his garage where we set up this beautiful shot. But sometimes it'd be three or four in the morning, you're thinking, God, and he comes in his way, and then boom, and he's like this energy. So he was one of the reasons that it took along all right

to do our podcast because I was waiting for him. Oh. And eventually we got him to... Oh God, he knows that. How nice. And obviously, Alan, as well, I've worked with forever, Alan and Shirers, Alan Shira. Alan's solid. I don't know.

I don't know, Alan. I feel like I know, Alan. You know what I mean? He's exactly as you know what I mean. So, yeah, so to get those two together, it took a long time. But it worked. This thing of going from the BBC to Netflix, I know that the BBC is a place where you are quite kind of...

Well, it's the BBC and they have people to answer to to and they have the public to answer to. We all pay the licence for blah, blah, blah, but suddenly you're on Netflix. Were you like, knees up, Mother Brown, okay, let's go. You could say that. I mean, I will say that I love the BBC. Yes.

For all its faults. Oh, I mean. And it has a few, obviously. Oh, but it's an amazing institution. It is, and it's still hugely respected around the world, and we should be proud of it. And it was, you know, I've been married twice. And, you know, eventually you can kind of be.

go you different ways. And it was a bit like that with the BBC. So, and, but yet, I must say, though, living life

outside of the BBC without having that thing on the show, it's nice not treading on eggshells all the time. Yeah. And, you know,

lots of things have happened subsequently. So now, um, the World Cup's over. Like, where's that going? Well, it turns back into the podcast that we've already doing,

which the show was based on. Yeah. Netflix had taken, But you're going to do more... Monthly episode. Right. And obviously we're upspecking the cameras in our various homes. So they've wanted to continue, which was great.

You know, I know what it's like in a World Cup. And I was convinced it would be the same that once it starts taking shape and England start doing okay, then the country goes mad. And they can't get enough of football. Everyone wants a bit of the stress of it. So from my experience of many, many, many, many world cups, I knew that would happen as long as England progressed

because it was a Netflix show but it's based at UK audience even though we did get an audience from all parts of the world as well so it was fun because also I was slightly nervous about doing this show because they don't tend to work these kind of shows

but normally they're comedically led so you've seen a lot of these post England game shows or post World Cops and they've always They're really flop mostly. So I was a little bit worried. But I think because we went at it with actually a serious football head-on,

but also have some fun as well. To get it that way round, I think it made it work. It worked. It did. I mean, I don't really know much about football. That's all right, Vivina. Nor do I, but I've lagged it for years. When it's a big campaign, I'm excited.

I'm also a gooner, I'm sorry. You're a gooner. Well, you're happy days. Happy days. Yeah, happy days. My dad used to take me when I was a little girl and then I took my son and now it's the best thing ever.

Anyway, but I go and he has to explain everything to me but I love it. But this year and I know nothing and I don't know if you felt the same, I really thought it was coming home. We need to get rid of that phrase because he said jokes. It's such a jinx that's coming over.

Have I jinks it again? Well, no, because we were already home. Okay, okay. We're home, but it is not. Is it my fault? It is in Spain. So don't blame yourself. I honestly felt like it was, it was seriously going to happen.

I had a real vibe. I didn't. You didn't? No, not this. No, I didn't quite. I thought we got to about where we are. I think we got in a position where we should have made it. I think we'd have really strong.

Yes. The best team won. The best team won the World Cup. There's no question about that. They were so dominant, so good. They only conceded one goal. They played really good possession football. I thought England did okay.

I think they'll really regret the last half an hour against Argentina because as soon as we got ahead, you know, I've played in games and subconsciously sometimes you just try and hold on to what you've got. And I think Thomas Tuchle, if he reflects, and I'm sure he has, will go, I think I exacerbated that by bringing on defenders and making it more.

And you can look at things tactically like if you've got that many defenders on the pitch, how can you give Messi that much space to kill you? So there were lots of things. But prior to that, you know, we're wonderful performance against Mexico in altitude. I mean, I don't. Yes.

And got through it. It was so good. Although I think maybe that victory in hanging on like they did, there, but that was with 10 men, might have influenced his thinking in the Argentine game. Right, right. But I think we did pretty well.

We had some really good performance. You know, Harry Kane got his goals. Jude Belling was fabulous. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, that was. Some good, really good performances. But once again, not quite enough. Can I just say something?

Everything that you've just said there, I'm going to use another day to make myself. Next time you're at dinner with someone. Really good. And they'll go. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I go, actually, I do because Gary told me. You know, you've left the BBC, but you've done this great thing.

I'd like to talk about this petition that you guys have signed and what that's about and what you are trying to suggest to the Prime Minister. Oh, the millionaires paid tax? Well, I think if there comes a point in your life where you have a wealth and I think you can perhaps contribute to society. Now, I know you can just do that anyway if you want to, if you want to, I think there's a way of just paying the, and you know, we all do stuff with charities and things like that.

But I think it misses the point when they argue about the fact, well, just do it anyway. But I think if you can get it as a kind of law that super wealthy contribute more to society. It would make sense. Well, it's, and it wouldn't really make any difference to them. How much do you actually need? I was just going to say that. Especially when you're talking about obviously super wealthy, like the billionaires. And you think, well, and they say, well, and they.

say, well, they'll just leave the country? Will they really over like 0.2% of their wealth? I mean, would they? Why? And you just think, well, would you want those kind of people in the country that? Yeah. I think, you know, as someone that's pretty wealthy, I've always been, you know, contributors to tax, I've always paid top, top level tax for a long, long, long time. And happy to do so.

And if, you know, if they want us to dip in, I think, I think most of us would like to help in a way. So we'll see if the government does that. There'll be a lot of lobbying against it, of course, from the super rich. Because for some reason, I don't know if it's like a, it's like my dick's bigger than your dick kind of game for them. A lot of them, I've got a bigger boat than you, and I've got this and the other. I don't quite get it.

But I think it's helpful that you get it out there and you speak about it because I think it might inspire other people to do something similar and it could make a really big difference. So well done, Gary. Well, it's not moved. It's not moved the government yet. But if it does, then we can say well done. So Gary, you mentioned earlier about, you know, you've been married twice. And obviously, you and Michelle, I know, because I've done it,

splitting up with somebody in the public eye is a fucking nightmare. It's horrible, yeah. Oh, my God. And you were kind of on good terms with both your exes. Exactly. Can you tell me through what that's like going through that? It's so difficult to do it because it becomes a public. And I don't understand, you know, people say, well, it's part and parcel of being a famous or a celebrity or whichever way you want to describe it.

But, you know, personal lives and with your, you know, things. Basically, I look back and I look back and we had this thing, particularly back then, whereas that is really that's a sight on your you know that you get divorced that's a failure you're to someone has to you used to have this thing

that someone has to take the blame which was ridiculous someone's got to be at fault to get a divorce exactly thankfully that law has now changed because it was ridiculous one of you had to admit and you not only had to say

we had to invent something we had to invent something for it it was ridiculous I mean I was going to took the blame for both marriages, but we had to make up the thing because actually it was just an amicable arrangement because, you know, we'd been, I look at it as I had two, people say, the failures, no, I had two really successful

managers. Yeah, you did. Really good. 20 years together, four children, Michelle. Danielle, we had a few years, we split in the end because of children and we're best mates, absolutely best mates now. We see each other regularly. So, and it's, and it works. And, you know, I'm not sure meant to be the same people forever. Some people are, which is great, and other people are not. But, you know, going through it in the media and it's front-page news and it's like, you know,

when you've got kids as well, it's, it makes it really, really hard to deal with. But it is part and parcel of being in the public eye, but I don't think it should be. I don't think it's fair. I mean, I... If you sell your whole life as long as you go. Yes, if you're a reality TV star, you can sort of say, well, Under those circumstances, maybe it's fair game. But I spoke to some of the main editors of the newspapers in those days.

And I think it was like a game for them to try and mess up your life a little bit. I had somebody, I did a chat show. And it wasn't my finest hour, but I literally got ripped to shots. And the guy that started it was like, yeah, we knew you'd be all right though. But they don't know you'd be all right, yeah. Well, they, and I think they thought that I would be, and I think that he genuinely was like, I knew we could take you down and you'd be all right.

But I was sitting in my car going into Sainsbury's. They don't sponsor the show, but if they'd like to, gives the clear. But with my head on the steering wheel. Other supermarkets are available. With my head on the steering wheel thinking, I can't go in again because I was getting rubbed on the back with sympathy. it was that savage. Like people were just looking at me across the aisle go,

I'll bless you. And you think... I went there's a perception that you don't have feelings when you... And it's also, it's quite difficult. You don't want to whine too much because we do have incredibly great lives. But also we need the press. Yeah.

Well, that's it. We need to advertise your podcast and my podcast. But it's got better. I think it's got better. I was going to say that it's changed a bit. There's not got that gotcha, that gotcha nature that it had for years and years and years and obviously through the phone hacking and all those terrible things that they did your phone get hacked yes yeah yeah i think everyone's to yeah i'm sure yours

yeah yeah yeah i think pretty much everyone was getting hacked in those days but um but i think i think i feel like it's it's got better in terms of yeah trying to basically trying to ruin people's lives which was seems a weird thing to want to do but that's i think for them it was a bit of a game but again there are a lot of good aspects to the media and the newspapers but I was just thinking in terms of like everything you went through then and are you with anybody now? No I'm single but how long have you been single for Gary?

I've quite a few years now that would be I dated for a while about four years ago and not since Mike, I need to sort this out All right, you're asking me out I've got buried

I know you, I'm sorry about that out But I can't believe that Because you are such a lovely Do you know what I have I have a lot of female company And companions and friends Are you just talking about friends with Benz? No, no friends with Ben, no Ben's

Unfortunately, no Benz I'm not too much Benz I don't want to talk about my Benz nowadays But generally I have a lot of female friends for company. I love female company. So, yeah. You have got like a feminine

energy. I think Michael, my husband's got that. Yeah. Like, um, you, you could be one of the girls. Like, we could all sit down and have a good old chat. You know what I mean? One of the girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I really do have a lot of really close friends that I see fairly frequently.

So it gives me that female. A lot of them are exes? A couple. I can imagine that. A couple. Yeah. but not a lot of them but yeah so I kind of Gary are they all in love with you really No I don't think so

I don't think so I think they I think they suffer me they put up with me Gary they're all like probably just going waiting for you to see the line I think what's interesting is that you know I think that the danger is

as we get older is that we feel like there's not enough room in our life in the end to put someone in it because we get so happy in our own company. That's the danger. I'm okay in my own company. But what I am is I just got so comfortable being on my own in the sense of I'm not sure I can imagine, you know, regularly sleeping with someone again or not that you have to, sharing a bed or, you know, as you get older as well, you tend to make a few more bathroom trips in the night and stuff like that. But we all do that.

Well, I know, but, you know, up and down, I'd say it anyway. But I'm not ruling anything out. I'm just, who knows what might happen? I think it's an interesting thing of like the idea of being with somebody, going to bed with them and then it's going, okay, you go home and I'll see. It means if you don't want to do that, it's quite difficult then. You don't end up having to leave someone's house to go. And then it's all like, how am I going to do that?

They'll feel a bit rejected. And the other things, you go. on the occasional date or something, something might happen. And then, you know, if you don't quite feel it, then you've got to try and say it and all that. You don't want to hurt someone's names.

I get that. I mean, I think what it is is it's almost like you need to reconnect with an old friend that you know really well. You don't have any of that awkwardness around. Yeah, that would be perfect. Maybe. So go back to your Facebook, Gary.

I never had Facebook, you know. Never. What? I had Twitter and then I'd Instagram. You've got a massive following on Twitter on X. Oh yeah, I don't use it. I'm not used it for years. I haven't either.

It's horrible now, isn't it? It's gone dark. It's gone dark. It's gone dark. It's gone dark. It's gone dark. Yeah, I like Insta. I don't bother.

Do you do TikTok? No, I've never done TikTok. No, I don't know. I don't even know where you get it. My daughter's trying to like. Is it in the app store? It's in the app store, Gary. My God, you and me.

Cut all of this bit out. We look terrible. It's all right, that's fine. I think it but don't have to be on TikTok. Tiki talks. Yeah. No dating apps either. Do you know any dating apps?

I've never had to do that because I was with, I know. I was with Matthew for 20 years and then we would, we'd been friends for 20 years. So like I've never, but that's hard being, being well known. You couldn't imagine going to date enough. I'm meeting something you don't know. I know. What? It's impossible.

But you've gone into my beginning. again dating computer. Oh, okay. I have been in the past, I don't want to show off or anything, but quite successful. I'll bet, yeah. In matchmaking people.

All right. So I will look out for you and I will be in touch when I find someone good enough. Sounds good? Yeah, it sounds great. Yeah, great. Sounds great.

Okay. As long as they're good enough. Yeah, yeah. Gotta be good enough. Yeah, we've got to be good enough. And what I also think is nice is that the right person brings out the best in you. I think that's true.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just want to say thank you for coming on. Oh, it's been an absolute. It's always a delight to see it. Honestly. It was the first time we've probably spoken properly. Yeah, ever.

Because you work with each other of times. We did sport relief a few times and stuff. And obviously met over the years, but never really had a conversation. Yeah. So it's really been lovely. Yeah, now you're going to sort my love life. Yeah, I am. I'm actually quite good.

I've got people that have started living together. They've now been together for five or six years. Thank you very much. That's worrying. And brace yourself. That's worrying. Yeah. But I understand it is quite hard when you become independent.

And you are happy in your own company to let people in. But I think the right person would you give space to. There you go. So good luck. Thank you. I'm sorting out. And I just want to say, Thank you for being such a brilliant part of our lives for so long, for everything you've contributed to society and all the great entertainment you've given us and everything you've taught us.

Don't make me cry. With Goalhanger and all the lessons we've learned and for being a great dad and a great role model. So thank you very much, Gary. Big round of applause for Gary. Stay there. I'm coming over for an uncomfortably long hug. Brace yourself. That was great. Thank you.

So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcf walk.ca.ca.