Begin Again with Davina McCall - Gillian Anderson: Why Talking About Sex Changed My Life & The Real Power Of Fantasy!

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, award-winning actress, author, and advocate Gillian Anderson opens up about the personal journey behind her public persona. Best known for her iconic roles in The X-Files, The Fall, and Sex Education, Gillian shares how embracing sexuality, owning her fantasies, and confronting shame transformed not only her relationships—but her entire sense of self. Through honest and intimate conversation, Gillian explores how therapy helped her navigate anxiety from a young age, why women still feel ashamed of desire, and what it really means to speak up about what you want—in bed and in life. This episode is a powerful exploration of female empowerment, sexual honesty, and emotional courage. Whether you're curious about how to talk about desire, or simply want to understand your own agency more deeply, Gillian's story is raw, relatable, and deeply inspiring. Packed with wisdom, vulnerability, and breakthrough moments, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in sexual confidence, mental health, and reclaiming your power. 🎙️ Drop a comment: What’s Your Biggest takeaway? www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod Buy 'Want' here: https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/want-9781526657893/ (00:00) Intro(01:09) Davina Intro(02:02) Intro & Being a Role Model to Women(05:47) Gillian's Youth and Cultural Identification(09:33) Therapy at 14 after Mental Health Struggles(12:28) Gillian's Big Break at 24(16:59) Taking Risks in Her Career(19:50) Family Life and Career Balance(21:46) Becoming Stella in 'The Fall' and Thatcher in 'The Crown'(26:43) Ancient and Brave Ad(28:22) New Audiences and Playing Jean in 'Sex Education'(35:13) Sexual Assault and Recent Discourse(39:47) ‘Want’ and How it Came About(46:38) Fantasies, Shame and Satisfaction Sponsored by: Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You inspired an entire generation of women to go lightweight bra silk shirt. You've empowered women. Can you feel that? Only in the last few years. Actually, without even realising I'm saying this out loud for the first time. I loved sex education. It was your graduation into us seeing you as a sexually aware person. I think women feel unsafe sharing sometimes. That's not just about shame about the fact that we even have fantasies.

It's shame around asking for what you might want in the bedroom. in the bedrooms, you need to realize if I were to want something, what would that actually be? Do I actually even like the sex I'm having? And if I'm not, why don't I feel like I can talk about it? Something that came up again and again was about how many women fantasize about the man that they are with. To be looked at adoringly for who I am and how I look. And for that to be the thing that my partner is desiring. Not the perfect version of it. It's okay to look how you look, love who you love. It's okay to be all of these things. Literal light bulb moment.

Well, there's a bigger light bulb. I don't know if I can handle that. The bigger light bulb is... You could change your whole of life. So today I am talking to Gillian Anderson. I mean, she doesn't really need an intro, but she's the star of the full sex education. Interestingly, the roles that she's taken... files, you know, she's, she's, we've seen her develop and grow and change with each of the

parts that she's taken. But then, now she has, and I like the way they say this, submitted by anonymous, collected by Gillian Anderson. She has written this book with many other people called Want. It's Mega. Watch this. You're going to learn a lot. And if you're listening, give us a follow. Bastards. So before me, I have sat a woman who has won so many awards. I can't even count them on both hands or both feet. But I mean Emmys, like numerous amazing television awards, film awards.

And let's not forget, 1996 FHM Women of the Year. I wanted I wanted to end with that because we were both FHM girls but I was just excited if I got to number 99 you actually made it to number one and I think at the time it was such a just a normal part

of celebrity being a woman it was so accepted that that's what we did and for us to look back now It seems like such a crazy experience. What's your take on Gillian from back then? Actually, I feel like on the one hand, I'm almost as naive as I was back then,

just in terms of, I mean, at the time that I was asked to be on the cover and why. I don't think it ever occurred to me what my actual thoughts around it might be or that I might be able to steer it in a particular direction and not do X, Y and Z. And so I guess the fact that it was such, I mean, have we moved on that much? Actually, really is a big question I would have to say if you look at that. the difference between, you know, covers of magazines between men's magazines and women's magazines? You know, I don't know.

It still sells. And but I think at the time I, the big change, I guess, was agency or feeling like I definitely feel like I have more agency. and pause to, you know, take control over what it is that I'm comfortable with, or not based on all the reasons you can imagine. Yeah. I mean, I think what's been so nice for us, I feel we're quite lucky. We're similar in age.

You're younger than me, but a similar kind of era. And we've been in this industry for roughly the same amount of time is how, I guess, you have enabled you've empowered women can you feel that i i feel it now yeah yeah i i i heard it uh you know in my 20s 30s and um but i i fully properly feel it and know it um have i have just start to embrace it, I think, over the last few years, only in the last few years, as being actually, this is really important. And I'm not going to shy away from it. Actually, I'm going to embrace it and lean into it because it's still really important.

I'd like to go back to you as a nipper. Yeah. Because I know that you spent a bit of time moving between the states and the UK. I think you moved to the UK when you were around two years old. Yeah. So you wouldn't really remember that. No. At all.

But you grew up. Did you find, did you feel at home in the UK? Or did you feel like a visitor when you were growing up? I mean, as I got older beyond two, I think I felt both. I felt at home. home, but at the same time I was reminded on a regular basis by people on the outside that it wasn't my home because my parents were American. Right. And I mean, I was born in the States, but I felt, you know.

British. I felt British. Yeah. You grew up with a British accent, I'm assuming. Oh, yeah. Totally. It was my first language, first way of speaking. Because I think culture in our blood is such an interesting.

thing. I'm half French. My mother was French and I used to go to France in the school holidays and I would become French on the plane. I would get off the plane and be French. And culturally, I acknowledge that side of me, but I imagine if I'd have lived in one country and then another, that then it's quite confusing, like, which one am I mainly? I acknowledge that I'm British mostly. Where do you sit? Like, what do you feel? Well, the remarkable thing is that I don't think about it

because it's such a norm and always has been in my life, such a norm to move between the two and switch in whichever place I am between not changing languages but changing the way I taught because that's what I grew up doing. And, you know, if you ask me, do I feel half and half or do I feel more one or more the other, you know, what does make sense to me in my brain is that, you know, my cells, feel American, but my soul feels British. That really feels right to me. That's a great answer. That I really, I love that. That time brings true for me. Yeah. I wouldn't, I don't think I would, even with the current situation, I don't think I would give up my American passport. Right.

It's a big question. Yes. You know, even though. And, you know, but I do feel If somebody said I could never live in the UK again, I would really properly mourn it. Yes. Yeah. But I didn't really ever mourn moving from the States because I knew I was always going to come back. So, you know, it's complicated. Well, I mean, you're half and half. Yeah.

And that's a lovely, it's a luxury that lots of people don't have. Yeah, yeah. And it's, and it doesn't bother me really important. Well, I think, you know. I think it's such an important part of somebody, and I guess like asking you about that is it tells me a lot about you as a person. So to know that your cells are American, but your soul is British is brilliant because it articulated perfectly. I kind of feel like I know you better just from knowing that. Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. Good. When you move back to the States, I think you were around 11. Yeah. And I read that you went to see, well, you went for therapy at 14. What was that about? Was that your parents kind of suggesting, well, Jillian, we think that you might need some help or some support here?

I was really struggling at the time with my mental health, I think, what is how you refer to it today. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just struggling. I was just struggling. I was struggling with life. I was struggling with relationships. I was struggling.

Yeah, all relationships. And so, yeah, they suggested it. And it was, you know, on the one hand, it absolutely saved me from myself. But by the same token, I wasn't. I wasn't a hundred percent honest with the therapist and there was still something that I was too afraid to talk about and there weren't there weren't consequences to that I mean I didn't you know but that tells you the degree to which I was still you know what what I considered too bad or too much or too yeah and I

I think I was also afraid that it would get back to my, I didn't quite trust, you know. My experience so far, you know, that, you know, I've pretty much always had a therapist since then. And again, would say that it's been a lifesaver. But I have learned how important it is to, you know, to talk about everything. And to be honest. Yeah. I think that's what I love about this book, which I am going to deep dive in. to want later.

But that's tied up in that. Oh, yeah. Shame. Yeah, that's what it was. Projecting, well, no, my own, my own shame and projecting further shame on my parents for what I was up to. I can relate in quite a big one. I mean, I went also was my parents suggested I talked to somebody when I was 15.

I was honest, but it was actually ever something that had happened. And it was a relief to talk about that. But in terms of what I was doing secretly, clubbing or boys or like drugs or things like that, I was hiding so much back then. I couldn't believe, actually, when I read about you starting to act, how actually young you were when you got your first. big break in television with the X-Files, you were, what, 24 when you actually got the part? Yeah.

What were you like as a 24-year-old? I think by 24, I'd been in L.A., I'd moved from New York to L.A., and I'd been in L.A. for about just under a year, I think. Who were you with? Were you living with friends? No, I was actually living with a boyfriend. I'd moved there with a guy I'd met. doing a play in New York and I went to visit him and sold my return ticket, which you could do in those days.

Great. Yeah. Write somebody else's name on it and then they could use the, do you even imagine? And then smoke in the back row. Yeah. And I was living with him when I got the job. And I, you know, at every stage, I think, I felt so much more grown up than I was. And I know, you know, feel like we've talked about the degree to which that happens, you know, when you are in circumstances where you grow up very fast, I mean, I remember feeling like a grown up at 12.

And certainly some of the situations or circumstances that I found myself in were only really appropriate for an adult anyway. So that exacerbated the feeling like I was older than my real age. So when I was 24, I was ancient. You know, I was so, you know, looking back, it's only really sometimes, I think, when we look back at what a 12-year-old looks like or what a 24-year-old looks like and the responsibility of, you know, being on a number one hit TV show around the world for a 24-year-old. If I looked at my daughter at that age, I would have thought, poor child, you know, oh my God, how can you? And then a year later to have a baby in the midst of that. It was, you know, a lot, a lot all at once. But that's kind of been my life.

That's kind of, you know, I don't know whether that seared, you know, that experience seared the concept of a lot in my life. in my system so that from that point on, my life has been a lot and then a lot and then a lot of a lot of a lot and more. But it's all me. I'm the one that makes these decisions. I'm the one that says, yes, I'll do that, and I'll do that, and I'm going to make this, and I'm going to create that, and on the side, I'm going to do this. You know, one of the reasons why I started this podcast and and it's called Begin Again. It's about trying to help somebody live the type of life that you've lived so that on our deathbeds, whenever that might be, we can say we really lived and die happy. Because I think if you feel regret, you know, you feel like to me,

you wanted something I mean I heard somewhere that you lied about your age to get on the X-Files is that true so how old did you say you were I said I was 27

because because the character was 27 and I thought there's no way I was so I mean to begin with I thought there was no way in hell they were going to cast me

anyway because I had done nothing before and this was going to be a very big show or they were hoping it was going to be a big And it was. And it was, but, you know, putting the responsibility of a professional onto the shoulders of a 24-year-old with no experience in my head seemed just so outlandish that maybe

they would do that for a 27-year-old with no experience. I don't know. So I said I was 27, like the character. And I don't know if that contributed to the... you know, to doing the trick. But, yeah, it didn't cross my mind that I shouldn't or wouldn't lie to them because I wanted the job. But this is what I love. This is what I mean. It's that thing of taking the risk, doing the naughty thing to get to where you want.

It's these type of experiences that make you feel alive. The risk. Yeah. And it's interesting because we were talking about shame and that horrible feeling from when, but you also had this other side of you of kind of naughty girl. Like, I'm going to lie about this because it might get me the job and I don't think I want me like this. So I'm going to, that's quite a hustle. Yeah, I am a bit of a hustler.

I mean, on the one, on the one hand, I don't feel like I am. A risk take, I mean, I've known, you know, proper risk takers in my life. Yes. And they're quite exhausting risk takers. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I don't feel like I strive for that buzz and that, you know, energetically, that kind of frisson. But I do, I guess I go after things.

If I have an idea about something that I think is, is good or, you know, might help people or I do, I do go after it. And in a very often it doesn't, I don't think it ever occurs to me that I shouldn't or I can't. And often I go after things before, the risk part is I do it before I've actually fully thought through what the consequences are or they might be on my life. For instance, saying yes to so many things or thinking of creating so many things that I haven't thought, oh, well, if that actually goes and happens, that's going to happen at the same time as this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this. And that's the bit that I'm starting to, it's not regret, but I think as you get older, starting to realize, you know, that there are

consequences to my decisions and that there's a recklessness somehow in it. That, that there's that is both, I think, good, but also there's a recklessness that, that, you know, does have impact. And if I also simultaneously want to, you know, be able to have more freedom to be able to say, actually, I'm going to go over here where my kids are, because even if they don't really necessarily want me to be there, I can show up if I feel like I spend some more time with them, as opposed to being simultaneously busy. to that, you know what I mean? Stuff like that is what goes through my head now, which is, yeah. I mean, kids are a really interesting one.

I've got three kids as well. And trying to juggle a career and be a mum is demanding. And I see that when they were young, you really, was it a conscious decision to keep them separate from your public persona? Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. A very conscious decision. And also, I was very mindful of the time that I was away from them when I was young and had very strict rules about how long I would be away working on stuff,

which is a huge luxury. Yes. You know, and I think one of, you know, I think our business, business is one of the only businesses where you actually have that kind of luxury when you get to a certain place to be able to say that and simultaneously be able to either, you know, afford to have help or be able to rely on a partner to be able to balance the weight with. So, you know, all of this is with the prerequisite of I've been unbelievably lucky both in my career to be able to make those choices and decisions, but also to have had, you know, parented with a, my, particularly with my

boy's father, you know, who can and is interested in and wants to kind of, you know, be the main rain holder. That's, I wouldn't be able to do, you know, what I do without that. It's a gift. Yeah, real gift. I want to talk about the fall. Yeah. Because, I mean, I will never forget watching you in the fall.

Number one, I guess it was like a gripping, brilliant drama. But you inspired an entire generation of, women to go lightweight bra silk shirt. I was like, this is the greatest look and cold rooms. I mean, I literally changed the way I dressed. And what I think what I loved about it was that she wasn't overtly sexy. You didn't, she was serious. She was good at her job.

She was just hot as fuck. Like it was... Did you consciously make a decision to make her like that? Or was this always her role, her part? What did you bring to Stella? Well, one of the things that I found the most remarkable in reading the scripts when they landed with me was how, how, how little was described on the page, and yet somehow, through the dialogue and the action, you got who these people were, who Stella was.

And it was very clear to me when I sat down with the costume designer. We both, you know, we could have said it at the same time. It's separate. It's suede. It's leather. It's silly, isn't it? Yeah, it's so, it was, you know. And then when we did the fitting, I think back then, you know, it was sometimes what you do for jobs in the UK's.

The costume designer will take a room at Selfridges and bring in a rail. And she did, and every single thing on that rail ended up in the show. she just had an eye for what was going to work. And it was so clear, it was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And when you wear something like that, does it help you become a seller? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I don't dress like that.

And there were times when I was, there was actually, you know. I do. Yeah. Thanks to you. And you, sure. I mean, I don't because I remember thinking, I should dress like this. often because it felt so good, you know, but, and I immediately felt like her when I stepped in those clothes and, you know, I've worn similar things and I've tried since her to kind of steer away

from that look when doing other characters, of course, because she wanted them to be as different, but she, you know, but there was, I remember there was, even in terms of your question about did it help? Yes, absolutely, and always does, no matter what character, but, you know, particularly in that instance, Stella. But also it was the way they did her hair and the way it was curled, and there was a period of time where my hair was falling out because I was working on three jobs simultaneously,

where I didn't have, I had, I didn't have wigs, so they were using my own hair and some of my and so they decided that instead of the iron, they were going to use rollers because it was here on the hair. Yes, but it made it look. Well, it made it different. See it different on my shoulders? And I couldn't work. I literally were struggling to be her that day and it was, I couldn't fucking believe it.

I couldn't believe it was so weird. I didn't feel like her. And I mean, that was one of the biggest lessons about the impact that, you know, the outside for at least me as an actor, how much that influences. And, you know, because very often, I mean, I remember when I was doing Thatcher, I'd asked whether I could take one of the outfits home with me in her shoes because I didn't have anything that was even remotely like shoes that she would wear. and just to feel what it was like to walk in those shoes and in those particular printed outfits and stuff. You were breathtaking as Thatcher. Thank you.

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So if you'd like 20% off your first three subscription orders, go to ancient and brave. Dot Earth slash planet. So I think it's interesting because obviously we went from Stella. Yeah, sorry, I'm bouncing. No, no, it's great. I love it. I love it. We went from Stella to Jean. and Stella and Jean

feels like the beginning Jean from sex education Yeah I loved Jean I loved sex education I felt like for you it must have been

such a wonderful thing because did you feel like it brought me you a completely new audience Oh totally totally felt that But also I don't think I, and this is where I, you know, when I talked about being naive, I often don't, I respond to things on instinct and it's only really afterwards that I realize why I've done something or all the impact that it potentially can have. Need a vehicle that isn't afraid to make a splash?

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the actress to be working on comedy and for, you know, people in general to see that I could do comedy and that, and also to be working in such a new and fresh thing that was different from anything that I'd, that I knew of or read before. But I had no idea. And of course, it's interesting because, you know, the Netflix execs did. They could see it. They know exactly what they had and the air exactly work Ben Taylor was creating. I didn't have a clue. I just, you know, I should, and even, you know, I remember thinking while shooting it, is this, is this good?

Is this going to be good? You know, is this, you know. And it wasn't until I did the first season at Ed's when I thought, oh, she's great. Yeah, actually. How great that she's out there. And people are responding to her. and how interesting that, you know, this isn't just for the kids. I thought, and, you know, it turned out that it wasn't, that through her, in part,

it wasn't just for the kids and how grounding she in that house and their world was in the mania of the school and all the other storylines and stuff. So, you know, I'm, I'm pretty stupid when it comes to that kind of stuff. Just say something. Put the car in park, Gillian. Sorry. Put the car in. Don't ever say that about yourself, ever.

I don't actually mean it. You are like, mega. I think what's lovely about you is that when you accept something, you accept something with a beautiful naivity of like, this sounds like an interesting job, but you're not thinking, you're not calculating. That's a good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You accept a job because you like the sound of it, but you're not thinking, this will get me to a nice young audience. You know what I mean? Yes. Things happen to you by default and it's great. Yeah. But it's not a calculated move on your part. No, it's not.

But I also think that what I'm listening for when I listen to my intuition or instinct, my heart, I think I listen for, without actually even realizing I'm saying this out loud for the first time is the thing that is the thing that. that moves me or that feels important in some way. And even if the important bit is just self-serving is because, you know, how great to stretch a muscle to do comedy. I mean, let me talk about how important this was. Because firstly, to have a show like that out in the world when, you know, the nature of sex education at its point. best is challenging and archaic in the UK, let alone when we were doing press, Poland doesn't

have sex education or didn't at that time. I don't know whether the show helped, but doesn't actually have it in schools. You learn however you learn. And that, right? So, but also just speaking of representation, you know, so many different characters and sexualities and race. and cultures and, you know, some of the different versions of humans on that show that showed the audience worldwide that it's okay. It's okay to be who you are. It's okay to look how you look. It's okay to feel how you feel. It's okay to love who you love. It's okay to be all of these things that I think has, you know, it really, really had a positive impact on a lot of people and brought families together, you know, started conversations, brought generations together.

Amazing for that. And I, you know, couldn't have guessed, well, firstly, going into that and not knowing, you know, that it was going to be not just as successful. but as as watched, as appreciated, as embraced as it was. But then what I couldn't have known, which maybe I did know because I was listening, was the degree to which it would then have knock-on effects. And this book, for instance, would not have happened, were I to not have done that show, well, I not to have done that show.

And also, you know, I've got a functional soft drink, which would not have happened had I not done that show. So it has had a big impact on my life, in fact. I mean, I was going to ask you about being accepted as a sexually aware person. I don't know the best way to describe it because it's not about being, you're not overtly, But sex education and a little bit the fall was like it was your graduation into us seeing you in a slightly different light. But you talk about the comedy in sex education, but what I think is interesting, you covered some really important topics for women. You had a storyline with Amy Lou. Could you just talk me through that storyline very quickly for anybody that hasn't seen such education?

Well, Amy Lou Wood played a character called Amy. Helpful. Who was on the bus one day, I think on the way to school and was sexually assaulted. A man ejaculated on her jeans while she was standing on the bus. and it really traumatized her. And she didn't actually realize the degree to which it impacted kind of every area of her life. It impacted, you know, it impacted her sleep patterns, it impacted her friendships, it impacted her relationship. And it was only somebody else, I think Maeve, her best friend, Mave, when Amy told her.

what had happened, you know, said, Amy, you've got to report this. This is not, I think it's what I found interesting is that in that story is the way in which we, as women, and maybe it's anybody, but how we have a tendency to brush things under the carpet when potentially or ostensibly traumatic things happen to us. that. I mean, I know I certainly do and have for my whole life. I just kind of get on with my life and it's not until somebody else with some objectivity says to me, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, what's going on here? And you need to take care of yourself or you need to address this or you need to report this. And so, you know, Amy, character Amy came to my character Jean at one point

to talk through this and I gave her some advice as a therapist, you know, as a professional. And, you know, so much of it was about taking care, you know, taking it seriously, taking what happened to her seriously, not brushing it under the carpet, accepting the fact that it was actually having an effect on her life, not trying to trivialize it, and address bigger issue, which is the degree to which, you know, women are sexualized, women can be attacked. And what we now classify rightly as a sexual attack, I think, you know, sometimes is, you know, people would prefer to see it as actually something much more, um, uh, small.

smaller than how we classify it. The expression I keep thinking of is don't make a fuss. Yeah. It's that thing of, don't make a fuss. Yeah. It's that old-fashioned, it feels like a 40s, 50s over. Yeah. That women just don't make a big thing out of it.

Yeah. And I was thinking how amazing it must be working on a show with storylines that teach you so much, or give you so much to think. think about when you go home. Yeah. But also, you know, that, I mean, we've gone down quite an alley here. But, you know, at the time and during me too, the degree to which, you know, women were

encouraged to share on social media how many times or how often in their short or long lives, they had been, you know, harassed or attacked or raped indeed or whatever. And, you know, the percentage was like three quarters of women, if not more, had had that experience. And so it's important we make a fuss. You know, it's not nothing. It's an empowering time, I think. And also a very sad time for a lot of women that had had experiences.

happened to them and Outs had anything because they wanted to diminish. Yeah. Diminish it. Yeah. You said about sex education being a kind of stepping stone to want, and I really want to get to want. How did want come about? Like what was your thinking and how did, how was it born?

It actually, in the first instance, wasn't my thinking at all. It was my literary agent who had come across her mother's copy of My Secret Garden. Oh, wow. Yeah. So she had... So let's talk about My Secret Garden. For anybody that doesn't know what it is, because I think actually they should all go and buy it if they haven't read it.

They've just republished it. And that's thanks to you. They're probably very happy about that. So could you just explain what Secret Garden is? So Nancy Friday was an author in the 70s, and she decided that she was going to put together, she was going to ask her friendship group and her community to write in sexual fantasies to her anonymously,

and she would publish them under the name My Secret Garden. And so it was, you know, a relatively small community cross-section of women, but there were some really, really raw, moving, sexy, some dark, some beautiful, very powerful letters in the book that she published. And it was a bestseller. It was, you know, I'm sure it was banned in various places. But it was incredibly successful in Europe and in the States, and very often women would buy it and hide it in their bags or under their beds or whatever. Yes, I mean, I bought men in love, which was the men's fantasies book by Nancy Friday. And it wasn't under the duvet job at all.

Yeah. It would have been so shameful. Whereas this, on the other hand, is like, say it loud, say it proud, have it on the coffee table, which is so brilliant, Gillian. Anyway, yes. So my literary agent, because I'd been, since sex education, I'd been asked, or my agent had been asked whether by publishers, various publishers, whether I'd be interested in doing a book talking to sex therapist or a book

as if I were a sex therapist, talking to women about, you know, sex or whatever. And I'm not even sure whether she passed on any of those. those requests to me. But then she had an idea of when she saw her mother's copy of My Secret Garden, she thought, actually, this is interesting. What if instead she were to do a modern-day version of My Secret Garden and, you know, and show how far we've come or not between, you know, 2025 or 2024 and we published it and 73, which is when Nancy's Bridie's book came out. Wow.

And then when I started to talk to her about it, what I was interested in different from what Nancy did was to, because of, you know, the age that we live in, put a very wide call out. I was really interested in having as many women from as many people. from as many places around the world as possible to represent representation of women, differently able women and trans women and binary people. And so it's, you know, it is that. And so we put the call out through Bloomsbury. They created a portal.

And we got, I think, 1,800 submissions in the month that we had the board. in the month. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's mad. Yeah. And not all the submissions were finished. You know, they were started.

I think in the end, we had about, if I'm remembering correctly, we had about 900, which I'm quite grateful it wasn't more than that because it takes quite a long time to read. I think that was about, the equivalent of about 800,000 words or something. Yes. And so that really led to the. this book and and I wrote the introduction to the book and to the different chapters. We put the letters into chapters. And did you go back and read Secret Garden again?

Yeah. Yeah. And did you compare? I compared to the, well, yes, I compared. I don't think I'd realized, you know, because I can't. kind of skimmed it for sex education just in terms of, you know, thinking along the lines of that world and how open my character Jean was. But it wasn't until I started working on this book that I properly went back and read it

cover to cover. And I was shocked at how raunchy some of it is. You know, there's part of me that, you know, just completely stereotyp, you know, but wanted to, you know, put ladies in the 70s under boxes of, of, of, they must, surely there were more prim and proper than, than we are today. But, oh, there's, there's, there are some, some doozies in there. And, and so that was fascinating. I was

I was assuming that our letters were because of the degree to which porn is such a big part of society today because of how much sex we you know we see it everywhere we see it everywhere magazines on telly on our phones and it feels like it is

so at our fingertips I had assumed that conversation around it or the concept of fantasy and desire, and particularly women's desire, was going to have properly moved on. Yes. And it hasn't as much as I... Fascinating. ...would have thought that it would have. Because, I mean, I think there's, you know, there's a lot still about...

It's not just about shame. It's not just about shame about, you know, the fact that we even have fantasies or even shame to admit that there is a fantasy that one might think about when either masturbating or having sex. But the biggest one for me was, you know, shame around the very idea of talking about it with one's partner or even asking for, what you might want in the bedroom. I think what's interesting about asking a partner is this idea that you are telling them a fantasy. The idea of a fantasy is that it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy because it's something that is safe.

You can think about it. It might happen if you both say, okay, well, we've talked about this for a couple of years. Like, would you like to try and make this happen? Yeah. Or a couple of months or whatever. But actually genuinely, a fantasy really is a fantasy and it's safe because it's something that you're thinking about. But you have to have that conversation before with your partner to say, please don't shame me. When I tell you this, it's taking a lot of courage for me to tell you this thing.

And I really need you to be the same with me after I've told you not change in any way. because I think women feel unsafe sharing sometimes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and, you know, on the one hand, I'm sure that men do too because they think, oh, this is silly or this is, you know, if they knew that this is what goes through my head. If it's something from the office, you know, your wife or girlfriend might be absolutely hideous to that person from the office when they see them next

at the office drinks at Christmas or something like that. on like not even want you to go to the office. Yes. Christmas party. Yes. Or whatever. But I think what was remarkable about the book and the conversation that it started was because of the courage of the women who submitted the letters.

And the fact that not only were the readers being able to see, you know, there are people out there too who have thoughts and desires and feelings like I do, or, oh my gosh, mine is nothing like what is out there. Or, you know, but to me, almost even more importantly, is this thought process, which is, hang on a second. There is something that I think about, but I've never actually even thought about it as fantasy. and if I were to want something, what would that actually be? And in fact, while I'm in the process of asking myself what it is that I might actually want,

do I actually even like the sex that I'm having? Am I satisfied with the sex that I'm having with my partner? And if I'm not, how am I complicit in that? And if I'm complicit in it, why don't I feel like I can talk about it? Is that me or is that them? And if it is me, why don't I try it? And if it's them, I need to think about that and have that conversation. God, yeah.

This is amazing. Yeah. Why do I feel uncomfortable? Is it because I know that they're going to feel, I know they're going to think that, oh, my God, it's been so long and I've always been doing it this way and they actually want it this way. I know that, you know, all of these things, or there's going to be some form of, you know, backlash or judgment or, you know, pun, or whatever it might be. Yes. It's so complex. But then there's another part of the thought process, right?

I just say, this is gold. Like, I can see people listening to what you've just said. and having literal light bulb moments. Well, there's a bigger light bulb. I don't know if I can handle that. The bigger light bulb is, if I'm not able to ask for what I want of the person I've been married to for 25 years, does that have any link to why I'm not able to ask for what I want in the work that I do

and the raise that I've been thinking about asking for, or actually to assume that I might be talented at this other thing that I haven't gone after because I've been kind of wrapped up in doing this and being this for this person or whatever. It could change your whole of life. Do you know what's amazing? I now totally understand why you called it want. I've got goosebumps. It's big.

Yeah, it is big. It's massive. It is. Yeah. And I've had women come up to me completely unexpected. I didn't expect the reaction that we've had and I didn't expect that these were the types of conversations that we'd be having. But I've had women come up to me and say, this has changed my life. And at the end of the day, we're talking about courage.

Yes. Really. Yes. Yeah. How much would you recommend actually, even if we're not sending it to you. writing down our fantasies. Well, what that, I mean, the other part that I really loved about that for women is that there's something, there's something very creative about that process is that we don't,

you know, very often that there are lots of people, and I live in a creative industry, I do a lot of things that ask, that tap into my creative self. and only one part of that is the acting part, but I'm so used to free form thinking and brainstorming and whether it's writing or drawing, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, there's a lot of people on the planet who maybe don't think of themselves as being creative or they've grown up somewhere in India

and they go to whatever job they have and it's not a creative job, and they've never even thought about, you know, being creative or using their brain in that way. And actually sitting down and putting pen to paper, so many things are being asked of one in that moment. Aside from the courage to actually, I'm talking paper now, but, you know, we asked for it in a computer bottle. But the level of, but the creative writing that took place in women, you know, expand. their imaginations to a degree of allowing themselves to think about, you know, if the world of your brain is your oyster and you can put down anything, you know,

and so I really loved that for women who were participating. And now I can't even actually remember what you're original. Well, it was basically about writing it down, like is that even if you're not sort of giving it to you. Oh, yes. I think the act of writing. And I also loved all the different religions that wrote to you, the different complexities of how those religions viewed women and their sexuality. And the fantasies that those women had, I thought that was so, it's so enriching in every way this book and liberating. But one of the sweetest things that I really enjoyed and something that came up again and again was,

about how many women fantasize about the man that they are with desiring them in an absolutely like, I want to rip your clothes off and fuck you right now type of way. You know that thing where but you've been with somebody for 20 years and they haven't done that and everything's changed and now you talk about who's going to empty the cat litter. You know, it's like it's got to that point but you are desperate to be desired. I found that so touching. Yeah, there's a lot of really, really touching writing in here. And honesty is so much, you know, real, real touching honesty. And part of that too, which really moved me was women writing about being seen.

Yes. About I, you know, yes, there's a version of a fantasy where even for myself when in my mind I am, I look like, I look a certain way, you know, and I'm imagining that they are desiring me as that way that I look. But actually, the thing that I really want is to be looked at adoringly for who I am and how I look. And for that to be the thing that my partner is desiring, not the perfect version of it, but actually you. The essence of you. Yeah. Like the real you.

Yeah. I'm running out of time. Yeah. But I want interesting you should talk about that now because I think like for me what makes women and men the most attractive is confidence. And that is a belief that you as you are like in your own skin like attractive. And I think you embody that for me. Listen, I just would like to thank you, Gillian, and I'm going to take my glass off and be all serious. Jenny Anderson, because I feel like I'm going to finish off by paying you a compliment.

There's a new purpose to you. And I love it. And on behalf of all women. And in fact, men as well, I'm going to say thank you. You know, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for the light that you're shining and thank you for being a boss woman that we can all aspire to be a bit more like

I really love you I love you too I've got goosebumps like mad I'm going to give you massive paddle thank you and so good to see you