Begin Again with Davina McCall - How Childhood Shapes Your Boundaries and How to Change!

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

The people who benefit most from your lack of boundaries are often the ones who react worst when you finally set them, boundary expert Nedra Glover Tawwab explains why. In this episode of Begin Again, licensed therapist, relationship expert and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab joins Davina to explore how to create healthy connections without losing yourself. Together, they unpack what a boundary actually is, why different relationships require different boundaries, and how speaking up for your needs can transform the way you love, work and live. Nedra explains why setting a boundary can feel so frightening, particularly when you fear rejection, conflict or abandonment. She shares how to respond when someone becomes angry, withdraws or gives you the silent treatment—and why another person’s reaction does not necessarily mean your boundary was wrong. Davina and Nedra also explore codependency, hyper-independence and healthy dependency. They discuss why constantly rescuing, fixing or supporting other people can leave you exhausted and invisible, and how fear of losing a relationship can lead you to give up too much of yourself to keep it. Nedra opens up about growing up around addiction, being exposed to adult problems from a young age, and learning to listen before she was able to speak freely for herself. She reflects on how those experiences shaped her understanding of people and led her towards a career helping others build healthier relationships. They also discuss parenting, consent, vulnerability and the patterns we carry from childhood into adulthood. Nedra explains why your children are not younger versions of you, why healing cannot happen entirely in isolation, and how relationships give us the opportunity to practise everything we have learned about ourselves. At its heart, this is a conversation about loving people without abandoning yourself. Nedra reminds us that we are not permanently trapped by our childhood, attachment style or past relationships. Change may feel uncomfortable, but as long as we are alive, we have the ability to show up differently. Nedra Glover Tawwab reminds us that boundaries are not about pushing people away. They are how we protect our energy, communicate our needs and create relationships in which both people have space to exist. 🌟 Follow for more honest conversations about identity, growth, and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨ Follow Nedra: https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab/ ✨ Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for all your behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much, much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm (00:00) Intro (01:02) Meet Nedra Glover Tawwab (01:24) What Is a Boundary? (03:36) How to Set Boundaries With Your Children (08:13) How Growing Up Around Addiction Shaped Nedra (11:11) Becoming the “Therapist” as a Child (13:37) The Client Who Changed Nedra’s Career (16:08) When People React Badly to Your Boundaries (17:59) How to Respond to the Silent Treatment (21:42) Why Other People’s Reactions Aren’t Always About You (25:18) How to Set Boundaries Around Sex (27:02) Do Health Ad (28:13) saily Ad (29:07) How to Open Up and Be Vulnerable (32:50) Loving Someone Who Struggles to Let You In (34:01) Codependency, Hyper-Independence and Healthy Dependency (39:32) How to Build a Healthy Relationship After Unhealthy Love (42:32) What Your Breakup Can Teach You About Yourself (45:18) How to Stop Passing Your Triggers to Your Children (49:31) Why Asking for Help Feels So Hard (51:42) How Small Acts of Kindness Can Change a Life (54:33) How to Reconnect With Your Inner Child (58:34) What’s Next for Nedra Sponsored by: Do Health - The waitlist is open. Begin Again listeners get fixed early access pricing when they sign up today at dohealth.co/beginagain use code BEGINAGAIN Saily - Download from the app store and use code DAVINA at the checkout for 15% off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For some of us, our wisdom grows as we get older, and for some of us, we just get older. But as long as we have breath in our lungs, we have the ability to change. You've written the balancing act, and you want to create tools for people to implement healthy boundaries for themselves. So what was life like for you and you were a little girl? I knew something was off. Both of your parents were alcoholics. It's very easy to assume. If they loved me enough, they would stop drinking, and we're adults now.

But many of us carry it on. Like at work, you're doing the co-workers work. You're the friend who's over-helping. You're the partner who's burnout. So I talk about physical boundaries, emotional boundaries, time boundaries. I think we do boundaries wrong when we... Sexual boundaries, I always think are quite interesting. How do you navigate that nowadays?

If you're getting into a new relationship, what's really important is to Nedra, thank you so much for joining me on Begin Again. I am really looking forward to deep diving into all of the things you're particularly knowledgeable about because I just think it's going to really help people live a life they love through building healthy relationships and that's what it's all about. Connection. So the first thing I think I'd like to ask you about, because obviously you've written this amazing book about boundaries,

but also now we've got the balancing act, is what is a boundary? Well, a boundary is how we display our needs, our expectations, we can do it through our behavior, or sometimes we speak those boundaries to other people. It is the solution when we're having problems. It is the way that we regain our focus and energy in life. Okay, listen, I was just wondering. You know the subscribe button down there.

Could you just press it? That would be so helpful. It doesn't cost anything, completely free. But it really, really helps us bring you fab guests. We really want to do that. Boundaries are an ever-evolving conversation. I don't think we'll get to the end of the topic. But it will evolve as we age, as we grow as humans.

It's like, okay, boundaries 20 years ago, wasn't technology, but guess what? Now we have inserted technology into the conversation of boundaries. Can I ask you about the different, because the technology was the last boundary that you can set, but can I ask you about all the different types of boundaries? So, and set boundaries, fine piece. I talk about physical boundaries, emotional boundaries, intellectual boundaries, time boundaries. You know, time boundaries is one of those things we put on other people a lot.

like, oh my gosh, you're taking advantage of my time. And it's our time. We control it. I think the parts you're talking about with technology is your boundaries with yourself. Yes. Boundaries with family. Your boundaries at work. Like there's so many places for us to utilize boundaries.

And I don't think we apply it to every scenario. Very often people say, I have poor boundaries. And I'm like, well, in what area? Yes. Because you could have great boundaries with your partner and terrible boundaries with your kids. Yes. You have great boundaries at work and terrible boundaries with technology. I guess my biggest moment in my life of boundary setting was with my kids. I got really good at it, but it was always a verbal thing. I put something down. And then if they did the thing,

and I said, but this was going to happen. If they did the thing, I would make sure that it was implemented. I was quite strict in that. I was a, I was not a strict mother, but with the boundary I was. And it set me up, I think, to help me in later life. I don't think I had good boundaries before I had kids. It was quite interesting. So kids brought out the boundary. Yes. Well, it made me realize how safe it made them feel, if you know what I mean. Yeah. When I think about kids and boundaries, some of the unspoken boundaries. And I guess it's a little. And I guess it's a little, little bit about what you said. Like I'll say, hey, if you don't knock, you can't come in. Or if they just come in, I'll say, okay, well, next time I'll unlock the door because sometimes,

you know, I'm startled. I startle easy. I think I've watched too many scary movies. So if someone just enters the room, I'm like, and I'm like, I live with people. Why am I shocked? I don't know. So locking the door, it's like, well, you don't knock. So I don't have to be. That's a pretty impoundary. Yeah. Like, I'm not, I'm not speaking it. But This is the boundary as a result of you not knocking before you come in. So we can try it again. We'll give you a chance. But this is the boundary.

I think that's a very interesting boundary for kids as well because they get to an age where their privacy, they are allowed privacy. I think they need to have a certain amount of privacy from a certain age. And I think if you don't listen to them at that point, that is a really big problem for a teenager. And interestingly, I think people are different, aren't they? So their boundaries, you might have one boundary in a family for one child, but then you've got another one who's completely different. And they don't even need the boundary. No, they don't need it. Yep.

It's not. And it's that way in all our relationships. I think there are, you know, a family member or a friend who we might have a certain boundary. with and we don't need that boundary with another person. And I think we do boundaries wrong when we try to have a one size fits all boundary. Like this is my boundary for every person in every situation instead of the boundary is flexible depending on what's needed with this person or in this situation. I'd quite like to talk about this idea that as a child, you don't even really know it's called a boundary. You don't know what it is. You haven't got a name for it. You

don't know that you should be asking for it. It's instinctive. What are the kind of things that stop kids from having the ability to implement healthy boundaries for themselves? And how can we, well, how could somebody recognize that they didn't have that as a kid? And how as a parent can we help implement healthy boundaries, even when they don't really know what they are? Having boundaries requires emotional safety. Right. Or at least physical safety. Well, yes.

Yeah. So for kids who are not emotionally safe where they have a caregiver who understands, respect, listens, shows some level of concern, they can't have boundaries. There are some people who grow up in households. where, you know, parents might even say to them, you can't say that to me. You have to listen to me. You can't question this. Or this is the rule, even if the rule doesn't make sense or the rule is unsafe.

So some children are taught that it's not okay to push back even when it's necessary. And unfortunately, when you grow up in an environment like that, many of us carry it on, even though we can have the boundary. We're still in the mindset of, oh, my gosh, I can't do this because when I was a kid, I was never taught it. And so so much of my work is teaching adults that, you know, we're adults now. We're grown. And so you can reclaim some of those things that you weren't able to do at those younger ages. You can show up in relationships differently. And you can even show up with your parents differently.

I mean, is it all right for me to talk about your upbringing? Yeah. Are you okay with that? Because I was fascinated to read about you were brought up by your mum, but both of your parents were alcoholics, am I right? Yeah. And when you were a kid, how did your childhood shape your future? Because I think sometimes people who have had really difficult childhoods feel like it'll ruin them. But actually, in a way, it's been the making of you. It put you on a set of tracks. to get you here. I think it helped me understand people. Right. So what was life like for you and you were a little girl?

Oh, gosh. It was interesting and I knew something was off, but you can't quite describe it. I was a heavy reader, and I found myself in little pieces of characters, and I'm like, that's it, that's it, that's it. And so it was me like putting pieces of a puzzle together like, oh, that, well, that's why that happened. That didn't make sense.

It was like affirmation in a way to read stories and to be able to understand because the way I grew up, it was like, no, everything is okay. So I'm like, is it? Yeah. Like I was questioning like, is it? Is that normal? Did you look at other people's lives and go, that's not like. Well, people on TV because a lot of people around me. did have a similar life. And so if you're talking to them, it's like, no, this is normal.

It's like, is it? Oh, okay. And so you had that mind. I had that mind that, you know, some of these things do not make sense. And I was a questioner. And I was told like, hey, hey, hey, hey, too far, right? Too much questioning. Too many questions because I couldn't, I couldn't put the pieces together. I couldn't make it make sense. But they couldn't either. Do you ever look back at Little Nedra and go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I talk to her a lot.

Do you? Yeah. Tell me how you do that, because this might be nice for people to. Yeah, I have pictures of Little Nedra on my phone. I think about, you know, scenarios in life where I was just like, oh my gosh, I don't know what I'm going to do. And then I look and I'm like, look where we are now, girl. Look what we did.

Wow. It's, you know, it's constantly a wow. You know, I think the way that I grew up, it is, it alchemized, you know, so much of the energy in me to help others. Yes. Yes. I learned so much. I learned so much in an unfortunate way, but it was very helpful. Because of the way that you were and the type of.

inquisitive questioning and genuine interest in people's stories. You almost got treated like a therapist before you were a therapist by friends and family. Tell me a bit about that. Oh, yeah. I knew way too much adult business. Way too many things. Why aunt so-and-so left her husband? Why this person needed to move quickly?

Why, like, all of these things. because I was like asking questions. And if I wasn't asking questions, I was like watching. Like listening. I'm listening. Yeah. Yeah. So did friends ask you for advice?

Was it like just a natural process? Not only was I a talk or I was a listener. So, you know, I would ask people questions. People would share their stories. When I was younger, I would say it was a lot of conversations with my dad. Like maybe he gave me some therapeutic training around like listening because he had a lot to say. In what way? Just just talking.

So I would, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. He just, you know, I was his sounding board. I was the person that he talked to about, I don't know, a variety of things. So I feel like it sort of trained me to be a listener and not necessarily a speaker. Right. Which I wouldn't say was good because I didn't get to. talk as much, but yeah, I definitely listen. And I would say inappropriately so. I don't think it was appropriate sharing, but it was like him getting things off his chest and he had, you know, you're a

kid, you're a captive audience. So I couldn't have the boundary of, hey, I don't want to talk to you. It's like, no, you have to listen. It's like, okay, I'll, I'll listen. It's an art form, though, listening. It is in our farm and when you want to. Yes, that's true. Not when you have to. That's true. That when you have to, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think when you want to when the story is interesting, yeah, it makes sense to be a listener. But I would say, yeah, definitely at a young age, I was listening and talking to adults about their stuff.

And I would say as I got older more so, my friends, but, you know, really just family. And when you became a therapist finally at 24, sort of fully trained, because you'd gone to university, but then you kind of carried on and went into therapy and then became a trained therapist. What was it that first made you think I want to work in the area of relationships

and boundaries and how to kind of have a healthy relationship with yourself, with other people? Yeah, I would say maybe my first client sort of changed my perspective. I think so much of going to college is thinking that you want to do something until you start to do it. It's like, you know what?

Maybe I don't like this as much as I thought. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I want to work with kids or something. But my first therapy session was really about a boundary violation. It was a family member had sexually violated this teenager. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And, you know, the scenario was mom has some experiences as well. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like a repeated thing in the family. And if we don't talk about these things and try to prevent them, it just happens again.

And I think so often our hope is this situation will go away because it was bad, right? not this situation will go away because we address it. And so that was my first indication that there are boundary violations that are detrimental if we do not address that. Yes. From there, I started working with adults who were experiencing all sorts of, you know, adults is like work life problems, problems with your partner and all of these things. And also I'm like, oh my gosh, like there's this challenge with,

being assertive in our communication. Yes. I mean, that's it. Yeah. Right? I think for almost everyone. Yeah. So I'm like, well, the initial situation is, yeah, it's more intense.

But the core of the issue around like you can't come to my house because or you can't have a relationship with my child because or I need to leave work early. Like whatever those statements are, we have a huge issue with being able to say them. I think sometimes in the past, the issue that I had was my fear of how people were going to react to it. Because I think sometimes you can say a boundary and somebody gets offended. That's the other problem. It's a two-way thing, isn't it? You say it, but then the person you say it to gets offended and then you're trying to backtrack.

how can we do that healthily? Yeah, you're trying to say it. The other person gets offended. We talked about my upbringing some. My father would give you a silent treatment. If you tried to place it. If you didn't listen, this is where the listening goes right. If you didn't listen, like, hey, I want to get off the phone or, hey, let me cut.

You get the silent treatment for a week. And when they come back around, they're going to act normal or if they come back around or why isn't this person talking to me? I meant the silent treatment is a whole another level of emotional neglect, right? Yes. But yeah, when we're placing these boundaries, people can be mad at us. They can give us a silent treatment. But how do we handle that then? It's a part of the process.

I don't think it's something we need to avoid. People can be upset by what we say. But when they love us and they're healthy, they can move on in the relationship, even though we've said something hard. It doesn't mean that because I'm saying something hard, this person won't talk to me. And if they don't talk to me, how do I address it? If you give me the silent treatment and that's hurting my feelings,

how do I have that conversation with you around your behavior, giving me the silent treatment? And how do you do that? Yeah, yeah. You know, I think you notice it, right? Like, hey, we typically talk every other day. I haven't talked to you. Are you avoiding me?

Okay. Yeah, that's good. Or it seems like you're avoiding me. Or the last thing we talked about was really tough. It was tough for me too. I want us to continue on. Do we need to discuss it further? Or can we keep talking?

Yeah. The silent treatment sometimes, I think it's something that we ignore because the other person is ignoring it and we're waiting on them to initiate that conversation. and we can initiate it too. Like they're not in control of that dynamic. And that's the power that they have when they're giving you the silent treatment. They always think, that's why I say, or relief. You know, sometimes when people give you the silent treatment, they're like, oh, I'm going to show them.

Well, depending on the person, it's like, you've shown yourself. You've shown yourself. It's like, I didn't want to talk to you anyway. I was tolerating you. So you're giving me the silent treatment. is a relief. I mean, what I'm hearing from you here, and this is something that I think I've really enjoyed as I've got older, is listening, you listen to yourself. How do you feel? Not you. I mean, like you'd say to yourself, oh, how do I feel about this and how do I want to act

around it? And then think, well, you might, because sometimes I might think if somebody gives me the silent treatment, I'm a bit angry. Then I have to process that. Then go back and go, actually, I'm angry because my boundary has been violated. I'm actually hurt. You need to just, in an appropriate manner. That's the thing, I think, in these heated moments of boundary setting and somebody overreacting or not overreacting, they are just reacting.

To not let it all explode in our faces, it's like take a deep breath. think about what do you want? Because that was another classic thing that I used to do was the knee jerk and then full of regret. What do you mean? So like somebody would go, I need some space

and then I'd go like, oh well, okay, I don't want to be with you anymore. You don't love me. You know, and it'd be like, no, that's not what I was saying, I just needed some space. You know, when you were young and you think, I had abandoned,

issues, you know, like, so if somebody says that, I've been abandoned, that's it, bang. And it takes years of kind of work. So how do you not go into the fight or flight thing? I feel like, you know, this is saying something maybe a little bit about my personality, because as you say that, I'm thinking, like, if someone said that to me, I tend to be maybe a bit more of an avoider and I'd be like, bye. Yes. and then I'd be like, I didn't mean it.

Oh, you and I would be tired. I don't know if I would say I didn't mean it. No, I would, though. I would be like, I don't mean it. I'd be like, I didn't mean it. And you'd be like, bye, and I'd be like, I was just, oh my gosh. You know, I think this is unhealthy. We wouldn't need each other because somebody has to like someone here.

If I'm like, well, I don't like you anyway. I go, no, but I'd like you. Yeah, we need that because we can't have to meet. we can't have two use. So, you know, that's the balance of a relationship sometimes that we have these, these differences. So that's not necessarily a bad thing. But what I have realized is that I can't look to somebody else to change the way I feel.

How can somebody change the way that a relationship is going by changing themselves? Yeah, it makes me think about, you know, everything is not about you. I think when you have a parent with an addiction, it's very easy to assume, wow, this is about me. If I did this, then they would drink less. Or if this thing happened in their life, then, you know, all these factors that you sort of play out that are, oh, if I'm good or if I'm, and it's like, it's not really about you. If they loved me enough, they would stop drinking. If they, you know, if they did this and it's like, it's not about you. And I think relationships are like that in that same way, someone wanting space.

It's not about you. But it is up to you how you handle it. I think that's what I meant, that your reaction to what someone is saying is on you. And first we have to depersonalize. What does that mean? That means taking yourself out of their decisions. Does explain that? Yes.

Okay, let's go. A person saying, I want space. There could be so many other. stories going on in their life. Maybe they have some issues with avoidance and this is becoming too close. Maybe they are having some scenario that they haven't told you about that they don't feel comfortable sharing. Maybe they, but all of their scenarios are not about you. Very often, it's like, why did that person not smile at me? It's like, what? How do you think that person is even thinking of you? Take yourself out of it. Maybe they have a...

Yeah, it's like maybe they have a stomachache. Yeah. It's like maybe they're fine. Yeah, stop relying on that person to make you feel good. They didn't say hi and I said hi. It's like maybe they didn't hear you. Maybe they were preoccupied with thoughts in their head. But don't assume that every single thing is about you.

Sometimes people are in a bad mood. I'm married. I'm in a bad mood sometimes. It has nothing to do with other people. It's just like I didn't get enough sleep. unless you were jumping on the bed all night, it's not your fault. It's me. I was up.

I was scrolling. It's my fault. But it puts me in a mood, right? So it's not about the other person. And so this assumption that what people do is always about me. Yeah, like you said, there is some level of arrogance or some assumption that you are the center of this person's thoughts. and perhaps allowing them to explain even what does this mean. If we need space, what does that look like?

What are you thinking for us? What do you need me to support you through? I mean, if you really want to keep a person who's saying that to you, explore it. Don't assume that this is the end. And space could mean, I don't want to talk to you for the rest of today. It doesn't mean ever again in life. So you've given them an explanation to what they're, trying to say. It's not, you don't even know yet. So if you jump in and you're like,

okay, fine, never caught. Now you've broken up with them. You've broken up with them and they haven't even said anything. So allow the situation to unfold by asking more questions instead of assuming that you know where they're going with this. Sexual boundaries. I always think are quite an interesting thing because everybody has their different tastes and different ways that they like to approach a sexual relationship. But obviously you don't really want to be in bed when you find out that somebody's into something you're not. And you go, oh, sorry, you don't want to be setting a boundary when you've gone that far. Or how do you navigate that nowadays?

Like, is it something that you do, is that foreplay in the kitchen while you're still closed? I just want to let you know, putting it out there, that this is my preference. If you've got something that isn't kind of a normal, I mean, what's normal, but what I'm saying is a... It could be that we put it out there. So we see if this is a situation that can even go to the next level. Right. Because if we're not interested, do we want to continue to pursue a connection with a person who isn't into the same thing as us? So it is a conversation that needs to be.

be had before you're in a sexual space. And it's a conversation that's really important. But permission and consent is also important and not, you know, having some, some scenario where it's like, oh, my gosh, I don't feel like I can say no now. So, yeah, I would say the sooner the better. And, you know, I don't know. I feel like we're concerned about, oh, my gosh, what will this person think instead of how do I need to feel what is important to me in this experience. And so that advocating for yourself

early is really important when it comes to sex. I've partnered with Do Health for this episode, and I want to tell you why. Forty-six percent of Do-Health members showed signs of hidden cardiovascular risk after doing their blood test. Forty-six percent. And do you know what? They had absolutely no idea, no symptoms, no big dramatic warning. And look, I get why people put this stuff off because results can feel really scary. You know, you think, what if I find out something I can't, oh no, but finding things early can change everything. And that's what's great about what Dr. Rangan has done with Do Health. This app gives you something clear enough to question, understand, and then act on. It checks your blood three times a year, including lots of

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without having to pay expensive roaming fees. It's available in over 200 destinations, and it comes with built-in cybersecurity. But the best part is that it lets you change your online location to home while you're away. If you've been watching a show, for example, Then you go on holiday and suddenly you can't access it anymore. Well, with Saley, you can.

Give it a try. Download Saly in the app store or by scanning the QR code that's on your screen right now. And for a cheeky 15% off your first purchase, you can use the code Davina at checkout. That's Davina for 15% off. I think it's quite interesting the difference between men and women sometimes in talking that I think women naturally we spend, I mean, I'm generalising here, so I know that not all women are like this, but so many women go through life just talking about very personal things. Even, I mean, if I go to a ladies lou in a bar somewhere, often you'll end up talking about their husband. Somebody you've literally met at a sink, like at a basin, you know, you end up having very personal.

And easily, it's comfortable for us. But for men, it's much harder to. How can somebody learn how to feel safe telling someone how they feel? It's, again, it's putting down a boundary if it's not in your nature to do that. Are there any tools that people can use? Well, you know, you can practice being honest and maybe one of the most simple ways when people say something like, how are you doing? Be honest about it.

Because people do ask that. And very often we give a fluffy answer of, oh, I'm good. Everything is fine. It's been a tough morning. Yesterday was really weird, and I'm trying to gather myself. So start there.

Give people an honest answer when they ask. The other part is you can't be vulnerable with everyone on the same level. So figuring out who in your orbit are the people that you need to open up to a little bit more. It's typically the people who are showing up, they are asking, they are consistent, and maybe you're not giving them enough. If you're not going into detail with anyone about things in your life, that's probably a problem. If people would be shocked to know that you're struggling with something.

Yes. But you talk to people, you're not going deep enough with them. So, you know, sometimes when I'm working with clients and they're like, nobody knows, you know, that I'm struggling with depression in this way. And it's like, can we start to tell someone? At least one person. Yes. You know, can we tell one person that you're depressed? And when you get off work, you go home and you sit in a dark.

One person in your life could know that. You don't have to tell your friend group. You don't have to send text to 20 people. But can we have someone who knows so everyone isn't shocked? Yes. And then once you see that person is safe, can we spread the news to one more person? Because very often people can't help us when they don't know what we're going through. Yes.

And so they need to be filled in and just told like, you know, hey, this is the thing I'm going. through. Maybe you don't know what level of support you need, but at least they know. And some people will just step up in that knowing and say, hey, here's how I'm going to jump in and support you. I think also if somebody's going through something alone, they can look a bit distanced, you know, a bit frightening. They don't feel personable. So they look a bit prickly and scary, but actually what they're doing is struggling alone. And so actually when somebody does disclose something, like you were saying, it makes you feel closer to them and understand why they might be appearing a bit distant.

Yeah, and one of the things I talk about in the balancing act is when we encounter... Let's just get this out here. Let's quickly hold it up to what, this book. Yes. Madra, are you talking about this one? The Balancing Act, creating healthy dependency and connection. without losing yourself. You had me at that line.

Yeah. This is so good. Without losing yourself is the key. Mm-hmm. So yes, you were just saying about... When we have relationships with people who are distant, we have to continue to show our love despite that. Yes.

Because it's really a barrier they're putting up to protect themselves. Yes. And again, we have to be personal. It's not us. People have, you know, we started off talking about childhood. People have a story long before we meet them. And even if we grow up with them, we can't determine how what they've been through impacts who they are. And so when we're in relationships with people, we think, we act as if we are the first person they ever met. So everything that they think is about me. And it's really not. It's about their uncle. It's about their grandmother. It's about dad. It's about mom. It's about their fifth grade teacher. It's about all this other stuff mixed together. And then here's your person. Here's your friend. Here's your coworker. And they're showing up in the world with their stuff. And sometimes it is, I don't know how to let people in. Continue to invite them. Continue to reach out to them via text. notice it. We don't do enough noticing allow of what we're experiencing with people. Yes. I notice when I text you, it takes two weeks for you to respond. Is everything okay? Yes. I mean, my goodness, when somebody does do that, I think it just means so much.

Can I ask you about the different types of attachment? Because I know that, Well, in here we're talking about codependency. In fact, let's talk about codependency, independency, and what these things are, there are different levels, aren't there, of these things? I'm reading, have you ever heard of peer melody? Yes, yes. She's codependence no more. Yes.

I'm just in the middle of reading that for the second time. So please can you tell me the difference between codependency and dependency and are there more kind of attachment stars to learn about? Well, I think about dependency as something that's on a spectrum. So on one end of it, you have codependency where we're totally enmeshed and overtaken by our relationships. And on the opposite, and you have counter dependency where people have trouble with needing others or even showing. them that they may care about the relationships because they're so hyper independent. And in the middle there is kind of where we have healthy dependency because dependency is

healthy. We should be able to rely on others. We should be vulnerable. We should be able to have tough conversations and be able to exhibit some boundaries. But the unhealthy way is to be, you know, maybe codependent where you have no boundaries. So what does codependent look like? So it's not somebody who's independent. It's somebody who kind of needs somebody else to function.

It's the needing of someone else to function or feeling like you have to be needed to be in that relationship with a person. Co-dependent No More, which is such an amazing book, is really centered around addiction, right? Yes. And it's why I read it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I've just come back to it now. That's so good. Yeah, it's really centered around addiction because what happens sometimes with people who have addictions is they have these other folks around them like upholding the addiction by engaging in their behavior in an unhealthy way, by not setting boundaries, by allowing them to have too much say in a situation where it's like, this is an absolute no.

And so the person with the addiction, you know, they may be wreaking havoc on a lot. loved one's life and it's like oh my gosh and on their own on their own right and so this this other person is like I have to save them I have to rescue them there's something I can do to to make them change their life I will do everything I can about how how other people in your childhood you know can end up having such an effect on you as an adult but that you have the power to change this is the amazing thing, I think. And this, I think this is what I loved about that line connecting, connection without losing yourself, that you have the power to get yourself into a place where you can still be you, but and have healthy boundaries in place that somehow some people

grow up, like thinking that in order to do all of these things, I'm somehow going to sacrifice myself, but you don't have to do that. Yeah, I think there is this idea, especially, you know, with something like codependency, if I don't do this from this person, I can't receive their love because there is this withdrawal that they may have of, okay, I'm not going to talk to you anymore if you can't, if you can't do this thing for me, especially, you know, when it's an unhealthy dynamic. And that can be such a threat to you that you're willing to not have any of yourself in the relationship. You make the relationship totally about the other person.

I think codependency is especially damaging when the majority of your relationships are codependent. It's one thing to have a codependent relationship. And it's a whole other thing when it's like you have 10. Yeah. At work. At work. You're doing the co-workers work.

You're the friend who's overhelping in that dynamic. now you're the partner who's burnout because you're doing everything at home. Then you have the parent who that's when it becomes particularly burdensome because you have no space where you can show up and receive support. Because everybody is set up for you to support them and you're not receiving enough. And so that's where we start to see more loneliness. We start to see more depression. People have challenges with speaking up because. the people that they have, there's this fear they'll leave because if I start setting boundaries now,

these people are going to leave me. And it's like, these people, these people who are taking everything from you, you actually have a lot of leverage. Yes. You have a lot of leverage because you've made yourself need it. So how do you start to execute some of your power? And it's by, you know, showing up differently in those relationships, risking whether or not this relationship can be different. And I think that is, you know, one of our challenges that if I say something, if I do this, this person might leave or they might adjust. We don't give people the opportunity to adjust because we're so afraid they'll leave.

What do you think people can do to like the top tips to try and if you're going to start in a relationship? And again, you can't change somebody else. So what things would you say to yourself, this is how to prep yourself to have a healthy relationship with another? I'm talking as in a sexual relationship with somebody. How can you say to yourself, okay, I've been in a country. codependent relationship before or I've had unhealthy relationships in the past. I'm changing because I think people sometimes think I'm stuck in this attachment style or I'm this kind of person. I can't be in a healthy relationship or oh, you're like this. I'm going to be a disaster with you. But how can

we actually bring our best version of ourselves to a new relationship and start again? Begin again. As long as we have breath in our lungs, we have the ability to change. And very often, we give up at 20. We give up at 30. We give up at 45. We give up at 60. This is the way I am. I cannot learn anything new.

I am avoided. I am codependent. I am depressed. I am whatever, fill in the blank. I am a person who spends money this way. I am a, you know, whatever it is, we get really fixated on. It's a belief system, isn't it? Yeah, and it becomes your behavior system.

Yeah. Because your beliefs and your behaviors alive. In actuality, you have the capacity to change. Is it comfortable? Absolutely not. But it... Absolutely not. I won't guarantee that.

You know, a lot of times... I mean, change. I always imagine myself. I'm up against a wall like that. And I'm getting like this. No, no, no. Yes. And then I do it.

And I go... That wasn't so bad. That was great. Oh, gosh. When I'm teaching, you know, some of these therapy techniques to clients, I say it's going to feel really corny. It's going to feel really cheesy and terrible at first. But the more you practice it, it'll become a natural rhythm. So you have to get into the mode of practicing a new thing.

So if you're getting into a new relationship, what's really important is to center who you are. Yes. to know who you are. If you don't eat a certain thing, don't let this person convince you. It's not, you know, if you have a habit of, I'm going to take on the personality of my partner, you know that's an issue.

So when you go into this new relationship, what is my personality? Am I pulling from them or am I being myself? How would you know? Do you kind of, where would you like, would you sit somewhere? Would you, it sounds like this is a big discussion with yourself to learn who you are, what do you want?

Yes, it is. What does that look like? It's a big self-talk. Yeah. You know, when we break up with folks, what we typically focus on is what they did wrong. Yes. And not enough on what we did in the situation as well. So look at yourself.

Look at yourself. Even if they did some big thing, how did you allow it? How did you get there? What sort of person did you have to become the top? That's what you're undoing in a new relationship. Yes. You are not repeating a cycle. So if you start to notice, oh, I'm getting back into agreeing with everything someone is saying, I can't do that.

Even when I don't. I'm taking on their perspective of a scenario that I had a pretty strong belief about. They're not convincing, but I'm just doing it so they'll like me. So it is this conversation you have to have with yourself and a level of awareness. There's an opportunity for you to talk to some people and say, who was I in that relationship? Yes, that's a good idea. Who was I in that relationship with that person? Yeah, yeah, who was I in that relationship with that person?

What did you see? Sometimes people will tell you you didn't talk very much when you were with him. You got very quiet. You're usually a bubbly person, but when you all were together, you got a little weird. That's something to notice like, oh, Okay. So when I'm with a person and I'm not talking, what was I experiencing in that moment? I felt like if I didn't let him be really being, he'd be upset at me. So those are the things that you're correcting.

You have to notice who you were, not who the other person was. Oh, they did these things. It's like, what did I do? What didn't I do? These are the things that I'm mastering. Very often we feel like I can only master these things. isolation. I'm not getting into any more relationships because I need to correct all of these things about myself. Well, correction also requires practice. So you have to be in a relationship

to be able to practice the things you've been working on. It's very easy to practice something when there's no audience. Right. It's like, okay, sing. Oh, yeah, we love to sing in a mirror. Now go audition. Oh, wait. So the relationship is the audition. Right. Of who you will. are. Yes. Oh, I love that. Yeah. It's the audition of all the stuff you've been practicing. All the books you've been reading, go audition. All the things you've been taking in. Oh, I should, you know, when I read parenting books, I'm like, huh, I got to practice this today. It's like, I have to audition this today. You know, I can't just take that information and leave it there. Now that I've acquired something new, that's actually good. I highlighted that. I have to audition

it today. I mean, with parenting, obviously this is the beginnings of someone's life. And we've been talking quite a lot about the triggers that your child could, can leave you with and how they can manifest in everything, relationships, work. You know, they can, and we don't know what other people's triggers are. And there we are with a blank canvas of a child. How do we turn up for that child in the best possible way to not burden the same kind of triggers that we had. Well, we first have to assume that they don't have the same triggers that we had. They're being raised in a different environment. They're not us.

They're not us. Can I tell you something? Go ahead. Okay, let me get myself comfortable. When my eldest daughter was about nine, I was really struggling with how to be. with her but I saw her as me she was little me

so she was she looked like me she has the same sort of attitude about her body as me she had the same mannerisms she was like exactly the same but I would when I would see her do a dance and then a look

on her face I go oh my God oh and then a weird thing would happen and I would go to her and go, are you okay? And she'd be like, yeah, like, and I'd be like, oh, that didn't go out as I thought. Me didn't do that, right? Yeah, it was, it was, it was just interesting. I was just, we were misfiring. And I went to see a child psychologist, not with her, because I knew I was the problem.

I was like, I've got this thing with my eldest daughter. I don't know how to be with her. It's so weird. And she told me, she asked me about my childhood, and then she asked me about her childhood. And she went to Vina. she's not you. And I went, well, no, I know she's not me. What do you, what do you mean?

She went, no, she's not you at all. She's got a roof over her head. Her parents are together. They get on. She's secure. You're not drinking. She's got a mum that shows up. I was like, she's not me.

Yeah. And it was really interesting because, all I'd done was changed the way I perceived her in my head that she's not little me, she's an independent person, she's her own person. And from just the microchanges that I made in the way that I related to her made such an enormous step.

We just got on brilliantly from that moment. I thought, my God, I've been putting something on her. How often do you think people do that? A lot. Do you think? Oh, yes. Yes. When we use phrases like, I wouldn't have done that at that age. Yeah. Or I used to. Or when I was a kid, like those sorts of things, you're in, you're comparing. And I'd be like, oh, I understand you. But I didn't understand her at all. Yeah. You, you couldn't because you grew up in a completely different sort of environment. When I think about how my kids are growing up versus how I grew up. Yes. It is very different. So I am working to understand their context because I don't have it. Yes. I don't have your context.

So some of these things that you're asking or, you know, when I look at my kids, I was like, gosh, I was way more independent than you. But I had to be. Yes. I had to be. In a way, you don't want them to be that independent. I don't want them to be that. So actually, okay, come back. Ask me more.

You know, it's like, I want you to be able to ask. That's something that I didn't get. And so, yeah, there. they have a completely different, you know, story from us. And so as parents, I think we do our kids a disservice by assuming that they think and feel as we would. Yeah. It's not true. You just talked about asking for help.

I think that's another really interesting thing that you've covered quite a bit and is a very, was a very, very difficult thing for me to do. Why is asking for help? So hard. Well, it's really hard when there wasn't a trusted person who could actually deliver, you know, which is the situation if you grow up with a parent who's an addict, right? Like they struggle to be able to be consistent and dependable. And so you may learn like, oh, gosh, I need to figure out a way to rely on myself, right? Did you have that? Oh, yes.

Yes. I mean, in a way, I found it quite helpful. in some ways. It is an awkward superpower. Yes. That's exactly how I see it. It's like an awkward super like, no, no, I can figure it out. Like I've been figuring it out, but it is burdensome.

Yes. Right. Like to be the person who has to figure it out. Like even if I can, I don't always want to. Yes. It's like, can somebody else do it? Like, I'm tired of it. I've been doing it since I was zero.

Right? So, yeah, I think it's really hard to ask for help when people don't do the job well or they mess it up so they don't have to help you. Do you think they, because I think sometimes people do that on purpose. Yeah. Yeah, they mess it up because they don't want to have to help you. Like, oh, I did it. Here's your water. It's like, oh, gosh, and a broken glass.

It's like, well, just say you didn't want to bring me a cup, right? Or, you know, I think there are these instances. where we struggle to ask for help because we fear people will perceive us as incompetent or not smart, weak. We should be able to do things on our own. But there's a lot of value in having support from people. Yes. Because it does take away the loneliness of having to figure it out, having to be your soul provider. I also want to say, I've been thinking while we've been having this conversation, how different the world would be if we could all speak to each other better.

Is that really in how you show up to everything? You can change. Can we as individuals change the world by all showing up as better people in every situation that it might inspire other people to show up in the same way? Do we owe it to the world to show up better? I don't know if we owe it to the world, but I think it would bring great value to the world to show up better, just in the smallest way. Sometimes it's, you know, being kind to people,

kind gestures. Oh my gosh, I think kind gestures. What do you mean by that book? I'm thinking of a neighbor that I have right now, and when I get back to my room, I'm going to do this. They have a sign outside their home, that says, it's a boy.

I don't even speak to them, usually, because I don't live that close to them, but I do want to send them a gift. Just as a kind gesture, because I think you put that sign out there as like a calling, right? Like, to bring people. Like, yeah, community.

So I just, I want to send you a gift. When you see, like, someone's like, oh my gosh, this person graduated, just hunking your horn and being like, good job. Anytime I see teenagers, dressed up and it seems like they're going to something for them. I'm like, you look beautiful. You look so nice today.

And they're like, oh, really? It's like, yes, you look lovely. That kind gesture of, I just want to say something that improves your mood. I just want to say hello to someone. I want to pay for someone's coffee. I want to, whatever those things are. You know, a few weeks ago, I walked my daughter to the bus stop and our neighbor didn't have an umbrella. I went back home and got the kid an umbrella.

I'm like, here. He's like, I'll bring it back. I'm like, you can have it. It's an umbrella. We have tons. We have tons because my kids always lose them. So I just buy them. But, yeah, it's like, how do we just impart a little bit of something?

Sometimes it's a hug. You know, when I walked in, you're like, oh. You know, just the welcome of people into an environment. When you walk into a space sometimes, like the bright color, the music, like whatever kindness looks like in your environment, in your life, what you can do. It doesn't have to be monetary. It can be physical such as a hug. It can also be, you know, you just creating a space for people to feel safe. I just wanted to talk to you about childhood.

And, you know, we talked a little. bit about parenting and letting kids be kids and helping guide them. And, you know, we can't promise them no trauma because that's not life, but to try and help them have the tools to deal with life. But I think when I listen to you and I think about me, I didn't really have a childhood like other people's childhood. Sort of half the time I was being treated as an adult when I I was like eight, you know, it's kind of mad. How important do you think it is? I mean, for me, it's been immensely healing.

If you've not really had that, if you've had one of those lives where you couldn't ask for help, super independent, old before your time, to find the child in you. It's a lot of practicing new things, things that adults might feel are childish. Because I think there are so many adults who are still struggling who didn't have it. and they're still struggling to feel what that magic is like. I don't want to jump on a bed. I don't want to do cartwheels and flip over, you know, a couch or something. But when I see that the Disney Castle, when I walk in Disney, it is like, I have a moment of pause.

The music. Yes. And it's like, yeah, you know, whatever that is. So there are things, even an adulthood, that just transforms all of us to this place that we weren't able to tap into or that we don't tap into now. It could be amusement parks. It could be coloring. It could be playing with dows. It could be, you know, playing football with your friends.

Whatever that is, it's very important for us to recapture that and to allow ourselves to have it. sometimes because adults need play too. Play is not just for kids. We need it as well to fill alive, to thrive. Do you know, I've also started doing again because my kids have left home. What are you doing? Nightclubbing. Playing for grown-ups.

Okay. Dancing. Okay. So good. My kids have not left home. So hearing about a nightclub makes me want to go to sleep. Well, we're one day, one day you and me. have more energy.

Don't worry. I'm coming to get you. Okay. Yeah, my form of play now is going to bed early because I'm chronically tired. So, yes, in 10 years, maybe it'll be that. But, you know, for me now, I really like to, I like to play with playing cards. I like to play like solitaire. Like, that is so relaxing to me.

Yes. I remember as a kid, like playing a lot of card games. So I've been doing that more. And that feels like, oh, it's like mindless. It's like in the moment you have to think. It's like, oh, yeah, Uno. I remember that. So, yeah, I think whatever it is, like discovering what that thing is and doing it,

dancing at a nightclub. Like as adults, I think sometimes we're so judgy about what we look like with other people. So just going and being like free. Free. This is fun. The other day I learned a few TikTok dances with my kids. I don't think I mastered them. God, can I just say something?

They learn those dances so quick. They do. It takes me like four hours to learn a three-second TikTok thing. This dance, it took like 20 seconds. I'm like, wait, so you just stop it at that part in the song? I'm like, is there another part to the dance? I'm used to like these full length dance routines. We sound so old.

Right. I'm like, oh, it's only a 20-second dance? Oh, I could do that for 20 seconds. Why do you want to dance for 20 seconds? Nedra, I want to talk to you finally also about your dream, really, because you've written set boundaries, find peace, and the balancing act, and you clearly want to spread healthy, psychological kind of tools. You want to create tools for people to go forward and live the life they deserve.

But what's next? I would say a deepening of what the work has already been. Boundary violations are unfortunate, and I don't think we're going to get rid of it in culture. Yes. But we have to figure out a way, even when that has happened in childhood, how to not allow those early experiences to impact who we are currently. I mean, when you go to therapy, of course, therapists are going to talk about childhood, right? Like, we love to do it because it is important. It's important.

However, but presently, how are these things impacting you and what can you do? We can talk about all those scenarios of when you were five, when you were seven. But what is happening right now? Yes. What are you doing in these relationships to undo all of that stuff or to reimagine a future that you didn't think was possible. Yes. And it is possible to change. I think you think because this has happened to me then, and I react like that because of that, but you have the power within yourself to change how you react to situations or to change your narrative. You can't change your narrative because it

happened, but to change the way you deal with it as you get older. I definitely feel like I've changed from the little girl who had a fear of abandonment and acted accordingly I feel like I've learned so much that's why I think getting older we mustn't run away from that because I really enjoy it

I feel so much better now yeah for some of us our wisdom grows as we get older and for some of us we just get older but for some of us we go at clubbing and I also want to tell you that when you are ready in 10 years

I'm taking you out I'll merely be 70 Yes getting older and wiser And I'll still be clubbing And clubbing Just letting you know And I'll still be wearing socks with shoes

Yes So just in case you missed this episode here If you love this episode I know you're going to love that Thank you.