Begin Again with Davina McCall - How to Date in Midlife and Reignite Your Sex Life!

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, celebrated relationship expert and Married At First Sight psychologist Mel Schilling shares the most powerful lessons she's learned from decades of guiding couples — and from her own late-in-life love story. Mel opens up about what dating later in life really looks like, why modern romance requires a different mindset, and how anyone — at any age — can find meaningful connection. She reflects on her journey of becoming a mother in her forties, meeting her partner abroad, and the myths we need to unlearn about love, sex, and intimacy as we age. With warmth, clarity, and a no-nonsense approach, Mel explains how to keep the spark alive in long-term relationships, why emotional intimacy is often misunderstood, and the practical shifts every couple can make to deepen their connection. This episode is full of honest insights, surprising truths, and expert strategies for anyone navigating love — whether you're starting over or trying to reignite what you already have. 🎙️ Drop a comment: What’s Your Biggest takeaway? www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod00:00 Intro   01:00 Davina’s Introduction   01:55 Mutual Appreciation and Warm-Up   04:22 Mel’s Early Ambition and Power of Manifestation   07:25 Where Psychology Meets Peak Performance   09:02 Finding Love Later in Life: Mel’s Story   11:01 Trust, Safety, and Dating After 40   13:39 Building a Dating Brand: Self-Awareness and Authenticity   16:30 Letting Go of Old Identities in Relationships   19:13 Mindset Shifts That Transform Dating Perspectives   25:20 Rejection, Resilience, and Emotional Strength in Dating   29:11 Knowing Your Dealbreakers While Actively Dating   33:15 Core Relationship Values 35:23 Mel’s Honest Miscarriage Journey   38:37 The Reality of Sex While Trying to Conceive   41:13 Mel’s IVF Experience and Emotional Impact   44:40 Thoughts on Parenthood and Family Life   47:35 Ancient + Brave Ad 49:04 Davina Reflects on Her Relationship with Michael   51:45 Ranking Relationship Values with Michael and Davina   1:13:13 Davina and Michael on Marriage and Commitment   1:13:45 Which Values Matter Less in a Relationship?   1:17:37 Understanding Consent in Modern Relationships   –  Sponsored by: Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet with code BEGINAGAIN Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruitflies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. What about if you've been with somebody for a very long time and you are thinking, I want to spice up our life and you're a bit worried that your partner might overreact?

We started calling the bed the workbench. That's so on the workbench. I really want to talk to our listeners who are all of a sudden starting again. The dating pool. Let's just take a moment to row how it is. It's a world of rejection and resilience. All the rules have changed. But don't be daunted by it.

So what would be your advice? Online dating does work. And there's some practical aspects there that you can get out of the way really. quickly. For example, we have 70,000 thoughts a day. Most of them are negative. When you've been with somebody for a very long time, you've got to like who you are with someone else. But you can't do that if you don't start by liking yourself. You're just going to project that onto the other person and it's going to be an unhealthy relationship. Let's talk about deal breakers. These sorts of indicators of basically being a bad person.

I look at them in two ways, really. Wait, everybody going to get pen and paper right now. If you say that again, I love that. Today I am talking to Mow Schilling. She's my new best friend. I love her. So basically she knows everything there is to know about relationships and navigating, dating and dating apps, which, as everybody knows, can be quite tricky. She is full of great advice and tips. Stick around as well because we're going to be talking about 11 values that we discuss. And Michael put his values, 11 values, in an order. and I put my 11 values in order and we can see how they compare

and what that means and it's something that you guys could definitely do at home. So if you could, it would be amazing if you could like and subscribe. It means the world to us and yeah, it means that we can deliver amazing content to you all the time.

Mel Schilling, I am beyond excited. I feel like meeting you, you in the car was a kind of meeting of energy and love for life. And yeah, it felt mega like I've got goosebumps. Yeah. Look, my hairs on my arms are all standing up on end. You are such a great human and you do such brilliant things for people. So thank you.

And I can't wait to amplify it and share your. expertise here. Thank you. So I'm so happy to have you on Begin Again. Thank you. Before we do anything, yes. I have something to get off my chest. Oh yeah, get off your chest, yeah. Davina.

Yes. Thank you for changing the conversation about menopause. I know that is not our topic today, but I don't care. Thank you for being that voice, that little voice. that has shifted the entire paradigm for women in this country and made it okay for us to talk about it, to make it safe for us to have a hot flush and laugh about it, to talk about brain fog when we're on live TV, which I've had to do. And really importantly for men as well, you know, I sat and watched your documentaries with my hubby,

and he learned so much, and he was then looking at me and going, oh, I kind of get it now. Oh, I get it. Thank you so much for doing that. Mel, thank you for saying that. I mean, obviously, I have to say that there are so many people out there fighting the fight. And it's me and a whole team of like other brilliant women doing that. But I just appreciate you so much for saying that. Thank you.

Thank you. Hey, how are you? Thank you for asking. I'm husky, but I'm good. I sound kind of sexy, don't I? Yeah, you do. I've got my sexy boss on. I like it.

Yeah. To go home and record your answer machine message immediately. Yeah, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? I am not home right now. You've got double 0.5. This is Mel. But I'm here, and I'm so excited to be here. I kind of want to ask you about young Mel, just out of school.

and you went to study and you studied some very specific university degrees to go in a very specific direction. Were you always certain of the kind of direction that you wanted to go to? Because it was psychology, I think, and HR, wasn't it? Yeah. Not at all. So what made you do that, go in that direction? I didn't have the opportunity to be famous yet. So is that what you knew you wanted?

Absolutely. I was the same. Right. I was a kid performer from, and I still am, you know, grew up on stage. That's my world. I mean, the other thing that I said, well, you're a grafter. I know that of you. But I feel reading about you going a bit deeper into you that you were ambitious.

Oh, yes. You wanted to succeed. I was always called a dreamer. Right. My family still sometimes call me that. I always wanted something bigger and I always had my head in the clouds. And I would often have this thing that I have now harnessed and I use with clients. And I call it a recognition fantasy.

And so I would be the kid who'd be walking along the street and have this fantasy that someone would come out of nowhere and pluck me out of obscurity and say, we want to put you in this movie. and I'd feel embarrassed about that because my family would say, oh, you're ridiculous, such a dreamer. Or if I was in the dance class and I was at the back, I would imagine that the teacher would circle me out

and say, Mel, come to the front, everyone do it like Mel. Or that that would happen at school. And I felt a lot of shame around that because particularly in Australia, we're very big on, don't get too big for your boots. And here. Right. Yeah, you don't own your success.

they do in the States, I guess. They're much more comfortable there, aren't they? Whereas we, yeah, I think Brits and Aussies are a lot more similar in that way. You can't, you can't brag and we cut you down if you do. So I felt a lot of shame around that. But now, fast forward, you know, 40 odd years, I now realize the power in having a recognition fantasy, particularly for people who are suffering from things like imposter syndrome, where they might naturally click into the fantasy of, I'm going to be exposed. People are going to undermine me. People are going to know that I'm not worthy. If you can flip that and go, imagine sitting in this space now and imagining someone

coming forward and actually discovering you and putting you into that place of recognition. It's actually a really strong, positive mental move to make. I know that now. I mean, that's basically what people call manifestation. It's like putting yourself in that place and it will come. Yeah. What was it, Kevin Kossner said in that film? If you build it, they will come.

Yeah. I absolutely believe that. And I have built so much of my life on that. I mean, when I continued throughout uni and into my early years in my career, which was very, very serious career, I started in child protection. So I was literally banging on doors with police and taking people's children away. And I was 21. I had no experience.

I really was so out of my depth, but it was a really under-resourced government agency I was working with at the time. and they just threw us in. Anyone who had any kind of qualification in psychology at the time were just thrown in. So I was doing that by day, by night, music theatre. I was on the stage. That's such a mad sort of dichotomy, isn't it? Yeah.

Like two completely different worlds. Worlds. Colliding as such. Like, that's amazing. Yeah. It kept me sane. Because doing psychology, that's wanting to help people, right? Yeah.

But I realized, again, as a. a performer, that some of my best work was in a room with one other person and only an audience of one. Yes. And I realised I could take this to so many other people and have an impact. And I guess fast forward to now and, you know, I've now done 15 seasons of Married at first side. Who does 15 seasons?

No, but that is? Yeah. Breathtaking. Eleven in Australia and I'm filming my fifth here now. How amazing is that? That's that perfect combination of psychology and performance. Yes. Yeah.

And I guess your husband, I mean, you, you fell in love quite with the one. Yeah. Relatively late in life. I guess people are looking like in their 20s, you know, to sort of settle down and then women that have a plan. Yeah. Late 20s, early 30s, get pregnant, have a baby, bish, bash, posh. But actually, you waited. Yeah.

Because you knew you hadn't met the right person. Yeah. How did you meet Gareth? We met online on E-Harmony. And you'd worked there or you worked there after you'd met him? I worked after. Right. Yeah.

And was that because you were like, this agency were going to. This stuff works. I want a shout out of on the rooftop and still do. Because online dating does work. Yes, and I want to talk to you about that. Yes. But how, tell me how you, how did you put yourself out there?

What made you think I am now ready? Do you know, it was interesting. And this is probably the only way I would have got myself into that space. It was through my work. So I'd been a psychologist for 20-odd years and I decided to retrain as a dating coach because that was my passion. That was, you know, because I was in that world and, you know, all the friends, I loved having those conversations about dating and all the nuance.

And people would often come to me for advice and discussion. So I thought, I'm going to actually do this seriously. And they need your help. I mean. Yes. That's right. because there's so much psychology there. Yes.

Particularly around the self-love and, you know, self-worth. So I started retraining. And as I was learning these methodologies, I started applying them to myself. So I think, looking back, I think I was telling myself that I was just doing experiments. But actually. I was sucking myself in. I was actually really going in there for real. But I was, I think the way I allowed myself to let my walls down was, oh, this is.

is just for my work and it's for my clients. So I started experimenting and dating and putting some of my principles into practice. Tell me what kind of walls you had. Oh, sky high. Very much about do not get close. My girlfriends would say if I went out to a bar, I had F off written across my forehead. But where did that come from? I think. hurt, you know, early, early young relationships with careless boys, you know, in the 80s and 90s, who didn't know better. I think I can say that now. I think if it was happening now, I'd say, get a grip, mate.

But looking back then where... They were young and they didn't know anybody else. Right. They didn't know how to treat girls. And we didn't know what we deserved. So I feel like I put myself in so many precarious positions, so many other people. unsafe positions, which is why now a big part of the dating work I do is around dating safety, particularly for women, and knowing those boundaries and how to protect yourself.

But I think I got myself into too many positions that made me feel uncomfortable and unsafe so that when I grew up a little bit and was ready to start having adult relationships, I was like, I don't know, don't trust. It took a lot for me to trust. I mean, what's interesting is that this is a really, I think, for people who are maybe second time rounders or who are dating a little bit later in life, this is the biggest barriers, the problem with trusting. And I've got a couple of friends of mine, including a man who got catfished and blackmailed from going on a dating app. And it's devastating, I think, to your confidence and ability to carry on or continue on those kind of apps.

How did you start then? And what, I mean, what would be maybe your advice to anybody? I mean, you've got tons of it. I know. Like, what would be your advice to anybody wanting to broach the apps again who may have just been like, do you know what, I just can't be asked anymore? Yes, I really want to talk. to our listeners who are finding themselves coming out of long relationships, all of a sudden

single again, you know, maybe in your 40s, 50s, 60, 70s and starting again, all the rules have changed. Not just the rules, but the roles as well. Yes. And the tools. So there's some practical aspects there that you can get out of the way really quickly, particularly if you've got kids, nieces, nephews, grandkids, get them on the tech with you. You know, don't be daunted by it because.

you can surround yourself by people who can say, right, come here, mom, come in, Nan. I'm going to help you create a profile. You can get the tech stuff sorted. So don't worry about that. Put that to aside. I think the bigger, more important stuff is how you are going to choose to step into this next chapter of your life. And what is your dating brand? Now, that might sound like a funny thing to say.

A wait. Right? I love that. A brand. You're a brand. How are you going to sell a brand? Exactly. Exactly. Right? Yes. I love that. And then we talk about it in our careers all the time. What's my brand? What's my social media brand? But what's your personal dating brand? So that is, once you figure that out, you can then make sure that the outside matches the inside. Okay. And that's where authenticity comes from. Okay. So here and the brand.

Look, how would you identify your brand? Great starting point is your personal values. Okay. Oh, wait. Is this what we talked about? This is homework, DeVina. I've got homework. I had homework. Can I just say I really took it very, very seriously. I love that. So, I think, so in fact, before we get the chart out,

let's explain why, so you're thinking up your brand, what's important to me. Can you just talk me through values and why they're important? Well, even before values, let's even take a step back before that, which is the self-awareness piece. Right. Because any personal development... This is the triangle. This is my pyramid.

So the pyramid at the bottom of the pyramid is self-awareness. Talk to that. I think any step towards self-development or personal development has to start with looking at yourself. Yes. And this is something that I find so often, particularly in a lot of the TV work that I do, where people are sort of fronting up and saying, okay, I'm ready, ready for a new relationship or ready to do things differently without first taking account.

for maybe mistakes they've made in the past or, you know, issues they've had, pain they haven't dealt with, they haven't done their work, the work on the self. So that really, it's really where you need to start. I think sometimes that is painful. Yeah. Because in midlife, we all come with lots and lots of baggage. And I do. I think it's amazing going back and looking, at how we made mistakes with other people in old relationships. And it could be relationships from when we were quite young, but admitting actually we didn't really do that right. Or I don't want to do that again.

I think what I love about that, your idea of starting with self-acceptance is that you've got to like who you are with someone else. You can't do that if you don't start by liking yourself. That's right. Not a me. That's right. Yeah. Because if you don't accept yourself, you're just going to project that onto the other person,

and it's going to be an unhealthy relationship. Can you explain what projecting is? Because I hear that a lot, and I sometimes think it's quite complicated. Yeah. Doesn't have to be. An interesting idea that, like, what is projecting how you feel onto someone else? What does that look like? It's a bit like, let's say right now I'm feeling insecure and uncomfortable.

I might say to you, you're looking pretty uncomfortable. comfortable there, mate. Oh, right. Okay. So it's like literally thinking how you're feeling is how the other person is feeling. Right. Okay. And it's often done in quite a blaming way out of the therapy world, but in relationships, you often see it with sort of narcissistic style behavior. It can be quite manipulative. Yeah. So I'm feeling scared in a situation. I'm going to come down hard on you for being scared and weak. It's that sort of thing. And it's really, it's highlighting your own. own insecurity. Yes. Yeah. Okay, so you've got to sort all of that out. Yes. Look back at the history, take the lessons, get really clear on where you're at now and what you want. What you want

can come a little bit later. I think even at this stage, it's really more about who am I and what am I going to bring into this next stage. And I think this is quite exciting. Like to come back to the begin again premise, it's a new beginning. Yes. You know, you can let go of those always. You know, lessons, start again. Is it possible to let go of an old you and be reborn as a person? I think it's possible, but I wouldn't recommend it because sure, let go of elements of the old you that don't serve you, shed them. Like what would you, what kind of things would people let go of?

Oh, I love the idea of shedding things like blaming yourself for something that happened in a relationship. or some pain that happened to you that was actually someone else was doing. Yes. Childhood stuff. You know, imagine you're a tree and you're now getting to this point in your life where you can stand strong and you can shed those leaves that are no longer relevant, that no longer serve you.

I think that's so powerful. But you're still you at your core. You know, it's not a complete new beginning, but it's a metamorphosis. Yeah, I love that. So good, isn't it? able to put something down that happened that might affect you moving forwards or your choices. Yeah. Or again, like you said, walls.

Yeah. Your barriers. Yeah. So what's next up in the pyramid? Mindset. I mean, so important. This is the mindset. This is the good stuff.

So this is where, you know, you've done that self-reflection piece. So you've got a good foundation. You can now start listening to the same thing. self-talk. And I think self-talk is one of the most powerful tools that we have if we use it well. You know, we have around 70,000 thoughts a day. I mean, imagine that going through your head. 70,000 thoughts. Most of them are either negative or unhelpful. Wow. The vast majority. And many of them are not new. They're just on rotation. They're just old scripts being played over and over again. Most of them are automatic. And because we have this built-in negativity bias, you know,

where we're constantly scanning the environment, looking for threat, looking for negativity to tune into, we naturally tune in to the negative hard stuff. So we've got this tiny, tiny little bit of focus left for positivity if we don't work on it. But we can expand that. through conscious thought. So how do you do that? Well, it takes work. Yes. It's simple, but it's not easy.

Yes. Yeah. So the simplicity is, oh, a negative thought comes up. I'm going to challenge it, change it, and go off on a different track. So can you give me an example? Yeah, I'm feeling fat today, let's say. Let's say I'm in a fat mode. I'm telling myself I'm fat.

And all I can think of is I have an exercise this week. I shouldn't have eaten that cake. All of that script. we've all done it. That's going over and over and I'm in my fat mode. I feel like everyone's looking at me because I'm fat. I've got roles, you know, the whole thing, everything, you know, you know what we do with our thoughts. We fill in all the colour, particularly when we're being hard on ourselves, don't we? We make it really vivid and really revolting. So if I just came along to me and said, just stop thinking that, that's not going to happen,

is it? It's too hard, particularly if that is something that's been socialized into me from, you know, being a child, growing up through the 90s, you know, all the messages that we received about our bodies and, you know, thin and all of that, there is too much in that to just say switch it off and for that to be realist. It's not going to happen. Our brains are smart. We try and trick them. They're just going to say, forget about sister.

So we need some strategies in play. So one of them, there's a few different approaches. One is to just accept the thoughts. and allow them to float by. So I love this idea of imagining you're a fish, swimming through the water, and you see someone's fishing, and the hook comes down, and you see this hook right in front of you,

and you've got a choice. You can either hook onto that with all of the thoughts and feelings and actions that come with that, that thought, I'm fat. Or you can just watch it. That's a brilliant visualization. It's powerful, isn't it? Well, because once you're hooked on, then it's hard to unhook.

That's right. You know, like, you're still thinking about it. You're thinking about it when you leave the house. But if you just swim by, it's like, okay, it's a thought. Yeah. I'm not going to engage with that today. Right. It's a day.

It's not denial. You're not pretending that it's not there. You can see it. Oh, that's brought in the water. It's still there. But if you can steal yourself and something we talk about in psychology is right. the surge, so a surge of whether it's anxiety, whether it's a fear, whether it's an unhelpful thought. It comes in a wave, a bit like going through contractions when you're having babies.

It comes in a wave. So if you can just ride the surge, wave, let it pass, it will pass. And then you can allow your mind to free up for a little bit more space over here. And what could be over here? What could you be looking at over here? Something really positive. Right. And this is where things like positive affirmation and visualization come into it, because you need to replace that I'm fat thought and feeling with some self-acceptance.

Can you give anybody some ideas of kind of things that they could think of? Because I think sometimes when you're stuck in negative thinking and somebody goes, you know, think of some positive affirmations. You think of anything. Like what does that look like? Right. And it can be hard. Yes. And do you know what the first thing I would say is it doesn't have to be a positive affirmation.

It can be a neutral one. So let's think about the continuum. Oh, well, that's easier, isn't it? Right. Lots of people like it. Yeah. Yeah. So if you've got at one end, I'm fat, and at the other end, I'm perfect, you don't have to go to I'm perfect.

No. You just have to go to, I like who I am, and I'm working every day to become the best version of me. Wait, everybody going to get pen and paper right now. Wait, let's give them 10 seconds to go and get pen and paper. We could put some lift music in here. Elevator music. Della-down, double-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-do-d-l-d.

Okay, let's assume they've got the pen and paper. Okay. Could you say that again? I love that. I like who I am, and I'm working every day to become the best version of me. Literally makes me want to cry. I love that.

You know what, it's achievable. Oh, I love that. It's not Pollyanna. It's not over the top. No. It's not I'm perfect and everyone loves me. No. I'm a work in progress.

Oh, I just... Yes. Yeah. My Instagram account says Davina McCorm, a work in progress. I am always, I am never there, but I'm really enjoying getting there. Yeah.

You know what I mean? I love that. That's so brilliant. Yeah. So improving your mental kind of mind stays. Yeah. Is the next level up. Yeah.

And even these small, you know, even getting halfway to positive. Yeah. In fact, that's... Particularly when you're dating, because it's... Let's just take a moment to row hard it is. Yes.

You know? It's so hard. Oh, God. It really is. I'm so grateful that I have a partner. I am so unbelievably grateful I'm not out there. Yeah. It's really hard.

It's a world of rejection and resilience. You know, it really is. Let's not pretend that it's not. It's not rosy. It's hard. you need to have all of your resources, both internal and external around you at the ready to support you if you're going to do this. Because the very fact that you make a decision to step into the dating pool means you're going

to be rejected. It's a fact. So having these tools behind you and a great support team, of course, so important to surround yourself with positive, safe, non-judgmental people is so incredibly important. And that resilience muscle is really important. really going to be worked out because you're going to have moments on a date where you get disappointment or maybe embarrassment or, you know, rejection, feel vulnerable. Those things are going to happen.

But it's about what you do with those so that you can bounce back and do it again. I remember my auntie saying to me, you know when you're dating and sometimes it's like you date somebody for a month and then it doesn't work out and you think, God, I've wasted six months this year, trying people out. You know, even if you're texting for six weeks, it's like, it's like, I've wasted so much time. She showed me, she said to me, every single person you interact with is preparing you for the right one.

And you learn from every single person. But it's like, take a breath afterwards. Yes. and really assess what have you learned in this experience and how are you going to use that moving forwards? And I believe that is true. I love that she said take a breath afterwards. And I think for our listeners who are maybe coming out of those big relationships,

that taking a breath is really important to not necessarily jump into the next relationship, but just say, I'm going to give myself some time here. And just invest back in me. So important. Or have tons of frivolous sex. Absolutely. Intentionally. You know?

That's what I mean. Don't get it wrong. Don't get confused. No. Yeah. Enjoy. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, there's something funny, isn't there, when you've been with somebody for a very long time and you think like, this is, you know, oh, wow. But actually what's interesting is you might realize that that isn't what you want. Right. You know, you think. You can explore. For years.

Oh, my God. I'm going to just go absolutely mad. but then actually it comes through it and you're like, I don't think I do want to do that. It's a massive time for self-learning, isn't it? Yeah. So this is the middle slice. It's like learn, look at yourself. And it's very much about using your mental skills, your thinking skills.

Yes. And there's a lot in there about balancing head and heart because both are so important. You know, and when it comes to love, of course, there's so much heart, there's so much emotion there. but it's about balancing that with keeping your feet on the ground, particularly when it comes to, you know, making decisions about situations you're going to put yourself in. Don't just be all head in the clouds, but at the same time, don't be too methodical.

I have been accused of being a bit unromantic. Tavina, I can tell you, with my clients, I give them spreadsheets. What do you mean? Oh, my God, I love that. Your spreadsheet queen. Yes. I love that. But why?

like in relationships. Dating, not relationships. Okay, keep tracking. Okay, keeping track. Okay. And so giving people, you can give them scores in terms of how they well, how well they match your values, your lifestyle preferences, do they have deal breakers, a little bit. But that's really helpful.

Yeah. Deal breakers. Oh, yes. Let's talk about deal breakers. Yeah. This is a big one. Yeah. This is a big one.

I look at them in two ways, really. They can be global deal breakers. What does that mean? Well, for me, that is something that should be a deal breaker for. anyone. So absolute global deal breakers. That's how you're on a date with someone and they show aggression towards someone else. Or they're being really racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobia, showing those sorts of behaviours. Or maybe they're glorifying someone else's pain. These sorts of indicators of basically being a bad person, you know, doesn't matter where you come from. The real red flag.

No matter where you come from, what your background is, what your politics, are you're going to look at that person and say, I'm not going to have a healthy relationship with that person, out. So that's global. But then there's the personal ones, which I think are much more nuanced, much more important, often linked to values. So let's say one of your highest values is health. Yes.

And you connect with someone on a date. And they start talking about how they love nothing better than sitting around eating junk food, not exercising, you know, they don't look after themselves, they don't sleep well. And they're describing their whole life. And really, that becomes a deal breaker. Because as someone who values health, you want to live a lifestyle that is healthy. So connecting with someone who doesn't subscribe to that is not going to work. That's very interesting, isn't it?

Because that's basically when somebody gives you the ick. Yes. And sometimes, is it a good idea, do you think, So you're setting out your values. Like how soon on a date do you start mooting this idea? Isn't mooting a word? Yeah, let's make it. Yeah, I think it's mooting, muting, mooting, I think it's moot.

Boot. I'm going to moot this. Rooting. This idea of, you know, what are your values? Because actually I think that the idea that we share the same values is important. But is that like saying I'm just interviewing you. that a bit... It's about how you do it, mate. Oh, okay.

Do you go, so... How to make values sexy. So... That was very sickly. I've heard me about your values. No, you do it covertly. Right. And in fact, you can do it if you're doing online dating.

You can start screening for values on your profile. Okay. So it's just the language... I've never... Yeah, me too. We've just licked ourselves. I've never... I've never dated online.

I've been very fortunate. And I don't know how much... information you give online? I have some pretty clear views about the way to do that because a lot of people are afraid to give too much information away. Yes. But I think it's smart. Right.

I believe in strategic dating, which means ruling people out as readily as you're ruling them in. Let's say your deal breaker is you don't want to have any more children. Yes, of course. That's so big. Right? That's so big. Lead with it so that anyone who comes along who wants to have more kids is going to be put

off. That's appropriate. Yes. You know, a lot of people have fear of, oh, but that's making the pool smaller. Well, that's good because it's becoming more tailored to you and more customized. So I really think you can use your profile and the photos as well to demonstrate you living your values. Here's me living the healthy life. Right.

Being with my family. Working out. You're carving, having an adventure. This is me being me. So that people who come along and see those photos who don't have similar values or lifestyle are going to be put off. Good. We want them more.

Right. So I think this idea of like putting more information than you think you should because I think if I was going to go on to a dating app, I would feel exactly the same as the kind of people you were talking about who think I don't want to put too much on here. Yeah. Because I'm revealing too much. But actually, the important things like do you want to have any more children? Yeah. I think political leaning, if you are extreme one way or the other and it really matters. to you. It's a deal breaker.

It is a deal breaker. Then put it on there. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something you can experiment with, you know, and I really encourage people to do that. Maybe put that there for a week and see how people respond and maybe change it. But it takes a bit of courage because it is really putting your important stuff out there. But it is so much smarter.

I also think the other fascinating thing about me as a person, and I'd be interested to see if you've changed like this, but my values have changed over my lifetime. How have yours changed? Well, I think we have enduring values that are pretty much you're born with, and then some that are more adjustable. I think an interesting one for me has been my independence, because that's such a strong thread through my entire life.

But having a family has really shifted that for me. and it's almost like, I think if I was to really drill down into it, it's probably been not replaced, but probably sidestepped by belonging, that feeling of belonging in my family, that's more important to me. Yes, than your independence. Yeah. Yes. And the cool thing is what's packaged up with my independence is always travel and adventure.

Yes. And we do that together. We're, you know, we're the traveling wheelbaries, you know, we're constantly having adventures together and we lived in Bali for three years when Maddie was two and a half, you know, and we do this and we travel around. So I feel like I've got my independence in a different way with this beautiful little team around me. We're going to come back to values in a minute, but I'd like to quickly talk to you about your family and about Maddie because having Maddie was such an amazing and complicated and emotional journey for you. Yeah. Did you always want to have kids? No.

So when did that happen to you? It wasn't until after 40. Wow. It did not hit me all. So even after you'd met Gareth, like it wasn't immediately when you were together. No. It wasn't. How did it happen?

Well, there was a long and boozy day at the races, DeVino. As all good stories often start. And we'd only been together for maybe six months. And I, after the races, we thought it would be a good idea to go bar hopping on the way home. Of course. And I'd have a cry in every bar, which was good. Great. Had a lovely cry.

This is what happens when you date a Northern Irishman, of course. Brilliant. Yep. And I got to the point, I will laugh about it now where I was blubbering saying, what if I can't have a baby? Will I be enough? Will you love me if I can't have a baby? And I was so surprised at myself that this came out.

I didn't know where it came from. I'd never had this thought in my life. I didn't have a maternal bone in my body, I didn't think. But all of a sudden, this was coming out. This man, this partnership was making me feel comfortable enough to actually start showing some of that. So we did a bit of the dance back and forth. I was ready.

He wasn't. He wasn't. I was and so on. Got to the point where we both felt ready. I went off the pill after 20 years and was pregnant within about 10 minutes. It was absolutely instant and I was so not ready. Right. Oh, went into absolute denial, I think for probably a good six weeks.

How old were you at this point? 40. And my body was starting to change and I was not up for it. And it was such interesting timing that I just found myself. getting to the point of starting to accept the reality. This was at 11.5 weeks. And then the miscarriage started. And it was the most shocking wave of grief that I experienced and still feel sometimes today.

Because it was so surprising. I didn't think I had that type of love in me. and all of a sudden I realized I had it and there it was and then it was gone. And it changed me in ways that I did not expect. Soffened me, opened me up in so many ways, made me realize that, and I think through learning to love Gareth and in such, you know, him making me feel so comfortable and safe and strong in a, enabled me to let that little soft side out.

And before we knew it, we were on this road to conception sex, which is not very sexy. Very different, isn't it? Yeah. We did 12 months of that. Wow. And the ups and downs and meanwhile, I'm getting older. Can I just very quickly, for anyone that's going through this at the moment, you're so great to talk to because you've been through so much yourself. but with your psychologist head on or hat on,

could you please give anybody any tips on how to navigate conception sex because it's really, really tough on a relationship? Yeah. I think humour is one of the best skills you can bring into it. You know, because it's not sexy, it's functional. We started calling the bed the workbench. That's so much bench. It's a job.

Let's get the job down. And I think there's something really cool about having conception sex, but then having normal sex as well. So having different times. Did you manage to do that? Sometimes. Sometimes. When it wasn't time to. It's not easy because you're so singularly focused on, you know, where's my temperature,

where's the ovulation happening. But to also find time to go, let's just be together and just enjoy this time as well. I don't think we did enough of that. Right. Yeah. I think looking back, there were moments when we did it. it and I remember reflecting back and thinking, yep, that was good, should have done more of that. So that would be my advice.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, to break it up and to have, you know, almost like different sex hats on. Yeah. This purpose is the workbench, there's the bed or wherever you want to do it. But it is hard. Because I think that brings back real intimacy because conception sex isn't intimacy, it's practicality. That's right. It's a function.

I bet you missed intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways it became stronger because we became such a team. Yes. You know, and having that shared, really passionate common goal of something that we wanted to create together definitely brought us closer. But then... Would you say that's a very important piece of advice that if you're going to start trying for a baby, you both have to want it equally?

Yeah. Absolutely. Because a baby doesn't fix a relationship. No. You know, and we hear that so often, don't we, that a relationship? ship was on the rock so we'd have a baby. Oh, no. It's so important that it's a shared goal, particularly if you end up facing fertility trouble because it's so tough. So then we did IVF? And how is that? Because that's hormones. Oh, my gosh. I think the hardest, the cruelest part

of IVF is that your body almost, it's like your body tricks you into believing that you're pregnant. You look pregnant. I remember having a belly. that looked six months pregnant when I was having the hormone injections. I had all the emotions of someone who was pregnant. I had like a morning sickness kind of experience. It was like being pregnant and then it's gone. And you'd already been through that with the miscarriage. I think that's one of the hardest things with a miscarriage.

That's right. You're still left with the feelings of being a mother for ages afterwards. That's right. That's right. and you have the physicality as well. And then, you know, we did the first round of IVF. They put two eggs in because I was older. They said, we really need to make the most of this.

There were two that were ready to go. And they both just fell away. Nothing happened at all. But then my doctor called me the next day. And she said, we've got this little Aussie battler, this little egg that wasn't developed in time, but it is now. would you like to put it on ice? I said, yeah, okay, let's just put it on ice.

We're not ready to do it again yet. I've got to recover. Need time to heal. Put it on ice. And we waited until my next natural cycle. And they said, would you like to pop that little frozen thing inside you? I said, why not, nothing to lose? I didn't have to go through the hormones again.

Right. I just went with natural cycle. Yeah. Popped her in. And that's Maddie. So she was frozen for the first six weeks of her life. Wow. You know, we've actually only just told her that story last week.

Oh, really? Yeah, she's 10. And? Oh, she was fascinated. Because she loved science. So she was really carefully listening. Because she's about to learn all the sex education at school next term. And I thought, well, I want her to know that her story is different from maybe some other kids because they're going to talk about IVF.

And I said to her, you know, you. you know, you're going to be having this conversation. What do you know about it? She said, well, I know that you have to have sex to have a baby. And I said, well, our story was actually a bit different and told her. She was fascinated. Wow. Yeah.

I think it's so good to be able to have that conversation with kids. It's been interesting. I've found it so easy to talk to my girls, but I've kind of left it to my girls to talk to my son. Right. It's quite difficult. You know, like a really interesting. It's been a really interesting journey. But, I mean, he's brilliant and he knows what he needs to know.

But it's been a fascinating. Yeah, he's been quite a journey that. And so she found that out last week. Yes. And has she had the lesson yet? No, it'll be when she goes back to school. How? So I want her to be able to say, that's me.

I'm an IVF baby. Mega. I'm special. And really interesting. for the class. Yeah. But she'll know and be able to explain her story. Yeah.

There was actually a test tube. It was in a lab. Wow. Yeah. So what was it like actually, you know, going through a whole pregnancy with Gareth and, you know, we're talking values. And I think sometimes you can be with somebody, say you want to have kids, go through everything.

And then values are completely different when you've got to. had a kid. Suddenly it's like, oh my God, all of the things around being a parent, there are so many values that are tied up in being a parent. How was that? That's a really good question. Because it's interesting because Gareth was a parent already. So I have a stepdaughter. She's 30, married. She's a big girl, which is amazing. She lives in Canada. So Gareth was in her life for the first sort of 10 years and they were, you know, not in touch for a little while. And then now they're they're back together again, which is beautiful. They've both got matching tattoos of Northern Ireland on their back.

The beautiful map of the country, I love that. Very special connection. So I knew that he had some parenting experience, but also it was a difficult situation. He wasn't with the mother, and it was a different situation to ours. So I was very interested to see how that was going to play out. And it's essentially a new beginning for him. Yeah. You know, and he felt maybe he made some mistakes.

first time around, he got to redo those. God, what a great opportunity. So, so powerful for him. And I see him living it every day. How lovely. Yeah, it's really beautiful. Because our family, we're sort of built in a way that I'm the primary breadwinner, and he's the primary parent in many ways without the way our career is structured.

So he, you know, takes Maddie to school on his e-bike every day there and back, takes it a taekwondo, you know. It's their bond is just so. beautiful. And I can see that as one of his values coming to absolute the fore for him is his role as parent and guide and support for her. It's so beautiful to watch. What I love about what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if you've made a series of mistakes through your life and relationships. every relationship is an opportunity to correct those mistakes of the past. You can, you can begin again. Yes.

To stop that happening again with someone else. Either through a tweak to, well, you can only ever tweak yourself, right? Yeah. You can't tweak other people. No. Yeah. You can try. And it might work temporarily.

What is that? Who are you? Davina, it's me, us, from 2045. Oh my God. We look fabulous. We're still going strong, we're still doing workouts, we're still glowing like a lava lamp at Glastow, clearly. And I just really wanted to come back and say, thank you.

Thank you. No, did we overcome Rogan and become number one podcast in the world? Yes, that did happen. But that's not why I'm here. I'm here to say thank you for taking Ancient and Braves True Collagen every day for the last 20 years because... So that collagen scoop in my tea every day actually did work. You bet your glowing ass it did because when our collagen levels were supposed to drop, we supplemented with Ancient and Braves True Collagen.

My new show sponsor. The one backed by clinical trials using the sustainable and refillable bottles. Taking it every day is a great way of supporting... future you. So if you're one of our brilliant viewers and you want 20% off your first three orders of ancient and brave, then head over to ancient and brave.org.com. That is ancient and brave.com. And because they're a B-Corp and a member of 1% for the planet, that means that 1% well, actually 2% of their sales goes to protecting the planet. I hate to think how good we'll look in another 20 years.

Can we? Because I am dying to see what he said. So Michael Douglas is my partner. Listen, Catherine Zeta-Jones, if you're watching. No, you don't want his. Don't worry. It's not that one. He can't do her. He can't do her.

It's my one. He has done it. He's taken your list of values. And he has put them in order of import. And I have put mine in order of importance. And we did it after we left each other this morning. So we do not know what we have put. This is exciting.

Yeah. And what's really nice about it is that I don't mind. I think, you know, sometimes in relationships, if I was doing this publicly, I'd be terrified. Oh my God, are they going to be super different? And it doesn't really bother me. but I am super interested to see what his values are because it will help me be better maybe around him or with him.

And understand him. And understand him better, exactly. Yeah. Can I ask why do you think you feel so comfortable and you're not scared, you're not worried about what's there? I think because before we got together, I knew him for decades. Oh, right.

So he has been my hairdresser since 1999. Wow. Yeah. And neither of us were married. We didn't fancy each other at all. We both married other people and had children. And we spent 20 years being friends. Wow.

And work colleagues. And so when I say he was my hairdresser, he was my hairdresser on TV programs. So we worked together three or four days a week. for 20 years. Wow. So we talk a lot, you know, about everything. I knew him better than I knew lots of my best friends. I can imagine that.

Because we just spent so much time together. It's actually quite an intimate relationship. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. And I just know him. So I know. And that's a really, I think friendship is a nice place to start.

If you're going to date somebody, it's a very nice place to start because you know there are no surprises. And there's trust there. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to pause there. We're going to get a board out. Let's get another tea.

Yeah, tea, another tea. Tea, lovelies. So as if by magic, we have magiced in our board. And what we're going to do is, so you gave me these 11 values. I'm not sure that we're going to be, we'll have to squish them in a little bit. But I'm going to put my most important. value first. And then you can show me Michael's most important value. And I love that you've done this separately. So neither of you know. We don't know. We don't know. Brilliant. And I think let's focus

on your top three. Okay. Both of you. Because that's where the real magic is. Okay. You ready? Okay. First one. Let's do it. Up here. No, I mean, no surprises here, I would imagine. Most people that watch this podcast probably know this is how I feel. And also, touch is really important to me. Yeah. Like good sex and touch. Yeah. So if I don't get this five times a day or something, like, I'm like, what's going on?

Yeah. It means a lot to me. What do you feel when you, if we put the sex aside and give the touch, what does that do for you? Connected. I feel connected. Yeah. It's not a need for security. But it's a connection.

I love the feel of skin on skin. I love intimacy and closeness. It brings closeness. Yeah. That's what I love. And I think that's what makes it for me special. Like I've got real close to my best girlfriend. I love her more than anything.

But the difference between Michael and my best girlfriend is that we are physically intimate, me and Michael. and that brings us closer. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. Why do you think that's number one for you? Because if we didn't have it, I don't know if we would last. Like it's that important to my relationship as a whole.

Physical intimacy is an really clear indicator of how we're getting on. Right. which is generally always good. It's an indicator of like how we're feeling in ourselves. I mean, obviously, if there are things where we're both stressed, but it's got nothing to do with each other and we don't, then that doesn't have. But if it's because we're misfiring or something,

then that makes me feel sad. Like I always think that having a healthy sex life is a good. great indicator of our relationship as a whole. Like a little health test. Yes. And how it's going. Yes. Okay.

And it leads so beautifully from the chat that you have with Tracy Cox recently. I love that. Yes. I love that and see how important that is to you. You know, again, you know, talking to our audience at this age. It changes. Yeah. Well, for lots of women, it's not important.

More men. Yeah. But, and I guess that's what's important about finding somebody that feels the same as you. Like there might be somebody that loves me, but that isn't that bothered by it. But that would bother me. Yes. You know. Yeah.

And this is where we'll get into this in a moment, but we can talk about there are values and then there are lifestyle preferences, which are really values in action. Yes. So how that actually, how you live that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Are we ready to see. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. Do you want to guess? Do you want to try and guess what do you think? Is it good sex? No. Oh, yes, of course.

It's honesty. Yes. Well, at least I was honest about the good sex bit. Yeah. But I know that about Michael. And why do you think that's so important to him? I just think from his life and how he values, I know that he values us because even if something's very difficult, we will tell it like it is both of us to each other. And the other one doesn't fly off the handle.

You know, and it's a painful truth. You don't go, what the fuck? We'll go, okay, I take that on board. Or like, thank you. You know, we'll say thank you for your honesty, even if it was something difficult to hear. So we often talk about how lovely that is that we have that together. So that's lovely.

And it's interesting, I mean, at face value they might look quite different. But how do you see the interplay between the good sex and touch and intimacy and the honesty? Well, I think without honesty, you can't have good sex. Right. Yeah. And I think also around good sex, there has to be an openness or a willingness to talk about things or, I mean, that will lead to you feeling safe enough, I think. Safety is really important for a good sex life as well.

You feeling safe, seeing, heard, you know. I think that's a real theme and perhaps a linking point here is feeling safe and vulnerability. Because both of these things at their core are about feeling safe enough to be vulnerable. Because when you're really honest, it makes you vulnerable. And when you're having good sex, you know, really raw, open, intimate sex, you're being really vulnerable as well. So it's interesting, isn't it? You've both chosen something as your highest value that relates to vulnerability. Yes.

We are both very open people. So number two for me is. Oh, okay. Now we're getting some congruence? I feel very, very proud of, I guess, the person I can be around him. I've always said this, like, I like who I am with him. So I feel safe. and he brings out the best of me for sure.

So sometimes I think if I've been in an unhealthy relationship in the past, it's quite hard to be honest because you think, oh, is this going to go? Am I going to get into trouble? You can't be honest because it's not safe. It's not that I've been unsafe in relationships. That's not what I'm trying to say, but emotionally. and it's not just my marriage because I don't want everybody to think, oh, she's talking about her marriage.

It's like way before that. It's just that I feel in a really, the honesty is the thing that makes this different maybe from my past. Being with the right person enables you to be honest. It does. And the right dynamic between the two of you. It is really interesting, isn't it, that honesty is up there for both of you, and this is a mature relationship. You know, I think we're talking a little bit earlier about some values that change over time. And I think this is one, because it takes so much strength and vulnerability to really be honest.

It can be something that develops later in life. And it's beautiful when you can get there. It takes bravery. Shall we look at his? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. We're starting to see why you put it together. Wow. That is so funny. What does that say to you? Well, it's just, I mean, that's just so nice to see, isn't it really?

It was funny because, if I'm really honest, when good sex wasn't the top one, I was thought, oh God, I wonder where it's going to be. And I wasn't worried, but I did think, oh God, I haven't, like, embarrassed myself by putting it so high. And it's like number seven. And it's like number seven. for him. And I guess if I'm really honest, that probably, I would have probably gone home and had a conversation about that and gone, oh my God, is it not as important for you? Like, are we, it would have made me feel a bit like unsure. So weirdly, having said it didn't matter.

I think actually interestingly, it kind of did. Yeah. But now there's relief. Yeah, well, seeing that. I kind of believe that our values would be similar. Yeah. or, you know, top five or whatever. Yeah.

So this is really nice. Yeah. It is interesting. I was like, yeah, yeah, no, I'd be fine. I don't care whatever they are because I know I love him, but actually it's funny. It actually means a lot more than you think it's going to mean, right? What part of it's funny? Just that it's the same.

but what I like was that because good sex hadn't come up first. And I honestly thought, I thought it probably would. And it wasn't. I was like, oh, God, what happens if I... So I think the reason why it's funny to me is that it's relief. Yeah. That's what I'm... I'm laughing because I'm so relieved.

Yeah. That we do feel how I thought we felt. Good. Yeah, that's what's interesting. And that there was a little bit of fear there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Which was unexpected.

Unexpected. Yeah. And quite a weird feeling for me. Yeah. I imagine having put that up there first, you felt a little bit exposed. Exposed, yeah. Yeah. And now this is saying there's no need to feel this.

Yeah, fuse. You're there together. Yeah. You're out on that. We're in together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Let's see what comes next.

Okay. It's some more colour. Okay. Ah. I can't tell you how important this is. Oh, the kind of to me. Yeah. And this is something, it's not, it's just something that is inherent in Michael.

He's just a very, very, very good person. And I knew this about him all the way through our friendship. Like, he's extremely kind. Why is kindness so important to you as a person? It's a quality that I really respect in people. It's very easy not to be kind. It's very easy to sometimes a short route or a funny route or a humorous route is to be cruel to someone, about someone. Michael is inherently a kind person wanting to make people feel good about themselves.

And I respect that enormously in him. And I think being kind to me, you know, when, I think sometimes, obviously I'm famous and he's, you know, he's well known in his field. It's quite hard to look after me sometimes or and sometimes for, you know, guys when I was younger and I was on the telly or it was quite hard to handle. Yeah. And he's always been, he's never been sort of take the piss out of me or he's, he's cheerleads, which is a kind act, I think. Like it's, um. And it comes from a secure place.

Yes. Yeah. Which is attractive. Yeah. Yeah. Confident. Yeah. Yeah.

He's not threatened. No. Yeah. And it, it links very closely with honesty. because Yes, I guess, yes. That's interesting. Kindness, isn't it?

Sometimes it's hard to be honest, but it is the kind. Kindest thing, yes. As long as it's delivered in a 30 point. I think sometimes people can become more honest as they get older. Yeah. Like you become more confident. You know, it's an easier thing as you get older. It takes incredible courage to be honest and open.

I think most of us, if we're very, if we're being real, would say that there are aspects of ourselves that we're constantly holding back, keeping from people. And, you know, to be able to get to the point that you're at now where you're in this relationship that's absolutely blossoming because you are both, you know, being open and vulnerable and honest. I mean, that's really special. They feel very lucky. Is it luck or is it what you've created and what you deserve? Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, that's a really nice way of looking at it. And it takes work, doesn't it?

Yes, yes, show me, show me. Yes. Yes. I mean, the interesting thing is, is that I don't think I'm particularly funny, but he is hilarious. You don't think you're funny? No. You're hilarious. I feel like I'm funny by mistake.

Accidentally funny. And that's sexy too. Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. There's been some interesting research done on that around attraction. And one of the things they've found is that if the values are aligned and your lifestyle preferences are working well together, the laughs will come. And it's when you're laughing that the real attraction starts to happen.

Because you get into that playful mode and you drop your guard and you flirt. Humour and fun is such an important part of the mix. I think quite interesting. he is very funny with me in the fact that he can be very rude to me. But I used to get offended if people took the piss out of me. I wasn't very good at it. I would find it hard to handle. Maybe because I was a bit insecure.

And he literally, well, I went out for dinner with him, my best friend and her husband last night. and my best friend and him like literally ripped into me and I was howling with laughter. Love it. Because I know they care about me. Yeah. Because it's coming from a car.

Yeah. So it's so interesting how that's changed for me in this relationship that actually I quite like it when he takes the piss out of me because it feels like a loving act. Well, is that one of his ways of showing love? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And he does it in a kind way.

Oh, yeah, totally. see that. It's so funny. And I think, you know, the humour and the good sex are a really important mix as well, you know, because like we're talking about before with conception sex or any kind of sex, you know, even sex after menopause, you know, there can be some bumps in the road. So to be able to have that humour hat on, have a laugh, laugh at yourself, laugh at yourself, laugh at even, yeah, you can even, yeah, you can laugh in bed. Yeah, yes. It's great. Yes. Naphrodisiac. Yes. Yeah. But preferably not. At certain things or points.

No, no. Pick your moments. Yes, pick your moments. Okay. What's next? Next one. Okay. We have, oh, no, hang on, it wasn't that.

A little preview. Ah, okay. So, one of my favorite things about Michael is his brain. Hmm. He is off the charts, smart. but if he went back to university or back to school something, he could study something like physics or quantum physics. He loves quantum physics.

Like he's a, he's a force to be reckoned with brain-wise, and I find that incredibly attractive in him. So back to you and why that's important to you, would you say that intelligence has been an enduring value throughout your life that's important to you or has it come later in life? I think I like talking. if I can't talk things through or dissect something or have you read this and I feel really lonely.

You know, it's possible to go out with someone, have a boyfriend and to feel a bit lonely because you can't talk. Yeah. So actually really talking to somebody or I'm picking something. And I can, I always look at comedians and I think comedians are very, clever you can't be that clever without being I mean you can't be that funny without being clever yeah I admire intelligence in people um and I like being brought up you know I like it when I learn something from someone I find that very attractive like teach me something yeah I don't know

do you see yourself as the intelligent I never did when I was younger and then I had a test like a non-verbal reasoning and a verbal reasoning test before my operation. Okay. And I did very, very well in non-verbal reasoning and I had always thought that I was a bit stupid. Huh. And it's changed my whole life.

And it's made me very, very sad that you didn't... For the way that I spoke to myself all my life. What kind of thing? Very interesting journey. Would you say to yourself previously? You're not smart, don't bother. Or you can't do this.

Or I'd be... If some... If you were to take me to a dinner full of really smart people, I would be really nervous because I just think I can't, I can't keep up with these people. I flunked out of my maths A level. I was like, what am I doing this for? This is stupid.

I mean, I was taking loads of drugs at the time. So, duh. Of course I was going to struggle. But I'd quite like to go back and take my maths A level to prove to myself that I can do it. That'd be an amazing to do. Yeah, it'd be nice. Just for me.

Yeah. Yeah. You have to share it with anyone. No, exactly. Yeah, just for you. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just, it did slightly make me.

make me feel sad that I did use to beat myself up when I was younger for something that wasn't true of myself and how many times do we do that through our lives? Yeah. We feed the wrong message to our brains and we become that wrong message and that's really sad. Absolutely. And that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the mindset stuff and the self-talk.

Yeah. And so often those voices are not even our own. You know, it's someone else. Maybe it's family or. You know, people you went to school with saying you're dumb, you're not good with numbers. Yes. And we make that our own. But we don't have to.

No. Ah. Oh. Yay. We are aligning beautifully. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. It's beautiful alignment here.

Yeah. That's so great. I'm going to put the next one up because we could quite possibly be here for five hours if I don't hurry. Now I'm laughing because it is funny. That's just... Wow. Yeah. Oh.

Romantic. Oh. And romantic, if you really wanted to look at it, is like a combination of all of these things, isn't it? You see, this is quite interesting because I didn't, I didn't put it that high up romantic. But he is amazing. So, but I didn't put it out because things like we don't do Valentine's Day. we don't do the big romantic gestures that people are expected to do with the thing because we don't need to because every day is.

Well, it depends how you define romance. Yes. Isn't it? Yes, I think. How would he define it? Why do you think he's put it there? I think he's put it there because it's thought. Right.

It's the thought. Yeah. Holding you in the top of his thoughts. I'm going to carry on. Okay. Oh. There it is. Devena, something tells me you two could be a good match.

I think you should get married at first sight. Do you know what's funny? It's like, I kind of, oh, that's a thing, yeah, brilliant. Is that I, I used to kind of hold getting married quite high up. Like, it's not important to me anymore. It's quite interesting that. Why do you think that is? Is it because you've done it?

It's just because we've done it and because we're such good friends and like it's not important, it's not going to add anything. And do you feel that it's perhaps something is more important to other people outside the relationship? Yes, totally. Yeah. So everybody's, everybody's telling us all the time because they want it. They want a wedding. They want a wedding. They want it.

They want it. He is the most stylish dresser ever. He dresses so well. Every day I'm like, oh God. He's like, if he wears a red stripy t-shirt, he'll wear red socks with black shirt. Like it's all going on. On purpose. On purpose.

Is that smart? Mel, it's brilliant. It's so good. Yeah, I really like that about him. And it's hugely attractive when somebody cares. about the way that they look. Yeah, their self-respect of it. Yes.

It's really nice. And we're not embarrassed to be stylish together. Do you couple dress? No. But we like to make a... Oh, yes, sorry. Very similar. Yeah, I mean, it is similar, isn't it?

Yeah. It's the aesthetic. You know, you're both creative people. You're both in the public eye. Yeah, I see that. I wonder what might... I'm just quite interesting. interested, what, my next one. Oh.

Ah! I was thinking, God, where is looks for me? But it's, yes. So looking at those two lists, do you feel like they're in the right order for the two of you? Yes. Makes sense? Yep, totally. I would say honesty is Michael's most important thing that he would say that, yeah.

Yeah, it makes complete sense. And I think mine would make complete sense to him too. he won't be surprised when he sees this. No. Yeah. And I can't wait to take a picture of it and take it back to him. Can I ask you something? So say like a couple were at home, have you brought out these cards?

At home, you know, once a year, you could say, right, on the 1st of January, every year, let's bring out our values. I think it's a really nice idea to talk through. I mean, even just you and me talking through it, I feel like I've had marriage guidance therapy. It's been amazing. And he's not even here. No. It's just from your perspective.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That would definitely be something that we could do. Great for couples. Oh, it's so good. I want to, shall we finish?

No, let's do the last two. Let's do them quite quickly or three. What are we up? So, money, I've got next. All right. And then he's got style. Style. Okay, yeah.

Then after money, I've got occupation. Okay. So there he's got money. So we're getting into pretty similar territory. Yeah. I mean, honestly, we're... And then, once children, because obviously that's off the cards really for both. Occupation.

Oh, God. That's interesting, isn't it? And once children. Oh, my God. Hang on, I got to put this here. So you can see. But your NBitt, pretty much the same. They are the same.

They are the same. Yeah. God, how funny. Brilliant. So interesting. And so reaffirming. Yes. I mean, so reaffirming.

I'm definitely going to put you together. Yeah. Definitely. Yep. Great. Good match. Great match. And so would these be what you would do on maths?

We do. We do with fuse values behind the scenes when we're watching. But I've also had the opportunity to sit with some couple. It's like this can actually do it with real cards. And that's where the real power comes from. We don't always have time. But when we do, I love it. Because I can just get right into it.

I really do. Love it. So one more thing. I really, really want to cover. And then I promise you, I am going to let you go at some point, Mel. You will be allowed to leave you. But before you do go, it's something that I think is really important to talk about. For men and for women, how do we talk about it?

How do we make sure that we're doing the right thing and that is consent? Yeah. Huge issue. It is massive, I feel. Yeah. And if we think about our listeners and where they might be at in their journey, having been in the dating and relationship space many years ago, so different. So different.

In terms of the way the climate's changed, but also the way we've changed. And what we now understand, if we perhaps start talking about from a woman's perspective, we now understand that we can say no if we're not comfortable. We don't have to be obligated to go all the way with someone. And I think what's been most enlightening for me in really learning about consent is two things. One, it needs to be enthusiastic. Yes, okay. So it is not just a, yeah, okay.

It's yes, I absolutely want to do this, whether that's verbal or nonverbal, but showing enthusiasm. And number two, it's continuous. Yes. I think that's the most important part because that means that you can actually withdraw consent at any point throughout your sexual experience. And I think that's very new.

It's a new concept because, you know, many years ago, the idea would be... I was always like that before. Right. Or you gave me a kiss, therefore that's an open door to have sex. Yes. Or I paid for your dinner, therefore you owe me sex. Yes.

All of that stuff is irrelevant now. And it's now come down to that communication between those two partners or three or whoever's involved, the people who are involved. It's about that open communication and continuous communication. So this now means that if someone is entering into the sexual realm with you, it's not just about doing it. It's about talking about doing it. So this is where all of that conversation stuff becomes so important. I mean, sometimes talking about doing it is foreplay. No, it's like it's sexy in itself.

But what happens if you start talking about it? Because I think if you're going to, it would be, is it, sorry, I'm not making myself clear here, but I'm just thinking while I'm going, that if you go out on a few dates for somebody and you've sent lots of messages, I don't know, maybe it would be something that you might want to message so you're not having to do this face to face. but it's like, do you have any clear boundaries before we have sex if you know you're going to have sex or is that too much? Is that too obvious? Do you know what? I think we can learn so much from Gen Z here. Those are the kinds of conversations they're having and it's normalized.

Right. It's a bit trickier for us. Yes. You know, because it's uncomfortable, but we can learn so much from them. I like the idea of having a consent contract with yourself and this is something you can do before going on a date. And you can sit down with a piece of paper and just write down the things that I'm comfortable to do tonight. This is a contract with me. It's not about them. It's about me. Yes, nice. I'm happy to kiss. I'm happy to touch, etc. And these are the things I don't want to do. Yes. And take it with you. Have it in your bag. So if you need to, if you get a bit wobbly, you can go back and check on it. It's a contract with yourself. And I think these kinds of tools can be really, really helpful as you're learning, you know, to start navigating this new world.

world of consent because it is different and it won't come naturally. But then I guess the next piece is how do I say it? Yeah. Because that is hard. Yeah. You know, I think you make a good point there with the texting because these days, the beauty of communication is it's multifaceted. Yes. It doesn't all have to be verbal face-to-face. You can use other mediums. So if you're more comfortable before a date saying, really looking forward to seeing you tonight, just letting you know, I won't be staying over but really happy to enjoy dinner and maybe a drink afterwards. Setting that expectation so it takes a lot of the pressure off. I mean, help.

Even when you said that, and I'm not even on a date, it made me kind of go, you know, like the relief. You're not thinking, oh, my God, is he going to, is he expecting me to go back? It's, it's, it is a different game, isn't it all together nowadays? the dating game. It's so challenging, I think, for people our age who haven't done it before. Or have just, to use one of my mum's terms, put up with it. Right. So I think of women now dating, maybe in our age and older,

who maybe in previous relationships didn't feel comfortable with sexual activity but just did it. Yes. Because that's what they should do. now finding their voice to actually say, well, firstly, to acknowledge it to themselves, to go, oh, that feels wrong, I'm not comfortable with that, but then to actually articulate it. You know, it's a kind of thing that I think can take a little bit of practice. And this is where you can take the consent conversation out of the sexual realm and into the domestic or normal life realm and start practicing it.

Yes. Even if it's saying things like, okay, if you're asking for consent, asking someone before you hug them. Is it okay if we hug? Oh, I do, I do that with everybody that I don't know when they ask for a selfie. Right. Can I put my hand on your shoulder? Beautiful. That's yeah. I, but I've only started doing that maybe in the last sort of 10 years. Okay. That's consent. Or I just used to just hug everybody. Not everybody wants it. But I did that because of my kids. Right. And so how does that work in the other way around? Like if we're thinking about someone who's learning to express that they're not comfortable with boundaries, starting to express those in other realms

that aren't sexual. So, for example, if someone does put their arm around you, for example, in a workplace, or you're standing in line for a coffee and someone's getting too close. Do you know, I would find it very hard to say something. Okay. I would, because I would think that people were thinking I was being difficult. You can do it nonverbally. That's bad, isn't it? Well, you've been socially conditioned. That's not your fault. You know, that's what we've been told to believe. You can do it in a nonverbal way.

So, for example, if someone's behind me in the line, I'm lining up for a coffee and they're too close, I'll turn around, give them a look and move away a little bit. And so nonverbally, I can be saying to them, too close, mate. Yes, okay. Yeah. Or on the tube. Classic example.

Yeah. Always opportunities, people too close to you with the tube. And that's probably a good place to start practicing it, actually. to start giving someone the look, so eye contact to say I'm serious, I'm not comfortable with this, and then move yourself away. Creating a physical barrier between yourself and the uncomfortable situations are good move. So whether that's literally moving to the other side of the train, putting a book up, you know, those sorts of things are good practice that will help you that when you get into

that sexual dilemma that might be a bit uncomfortable, you'll be a little bit more comfortable, saying it. That's actually really important to do the little steps and a social situation beforehand to give yourself the confidence to be able to do it in a bedroom or somewhere a bit more intimate

where it might be hard or otherwise. Baby steps. I was thinking that what about if you've been with somebody for 15 years and you are thinking, I want to spice up our life and but then it's like asking consent for something that you've never tried before and you're a bit worried that your partner might

go, what? Or overreact. Like, how do you broach that kind of topic? Like, I don't know what it might be, but it might be something frisky or fruity that you've never done before and you think, oh, God. It's all part of the continuous consent conversation, you know, so just because you've consented to it before doesn't mean you will now. Bringing something new in, you've got to have the conversation. You know, I think this is, we're coming back to all. those values we were talking about with you and Michael, with the humor and the trust and the honesty, having all of those elements in place enable you to have those beautiful conversations and to maybe not take it too seriously and say, like, I feel like a bit of a dick, but, you know,

I really want to try bringing your third person in. What do you think, you know, haven't done it before, shall we try it? How would you feel? And I guess even if you don't want that, just listen, go, God, I totally understand what you're saying. But I really. And then nobody being offended. Yeah. That's the key, isn't it? I hear you.

Yeah. I don't think I'm really ready. I'll go away and process what you're saying. And I'll come back to you, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. But it's not like nobody should be shamed in that situation because it's brave and honest. Yes. Mm. Yeah.

And that's what makes it safe. Mm. And safety is key. Yeah. Safety is sexy. Safety is sexy. Yeah. Well, if you're me, everything is. Yeah.

I love it. On that, Mel, I'm going to come over here and hug you. Full consent. Full consent.