Begin Again with Davina McCall - Katherine Ryan on Feminism, Face Lifts & Controversial Parenting!

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, comedian, writer and mother Katherine Ryan opens up about the fierce, funny and sometimes controversial journey that shaped who she is today. Katherine shares her unfiltered take on feminism, aging, and identity from her early years navigating beauty standards and working at Hooters, to embracing her femininity and her candid thoughts on getting surgery without shame. She speaks openly about her parenting choices, including co-sleeping, early potty training, and raising her children in a way that challenges convention. The conversation dives into the emotional complexity of family life, including Katherine’s experience brokering her parents’ divorce at 15, her mother’s influence, and the story behind the face lift she gifted her. She also reflects on rekindling love with her high school sweetheart, and how their shared small-town values created an unexpected foundation for her family today. With trademark wit and remarkable vulnerability, Katherine Ryan invites us into her world a space where contradictions coexist, shame is optional, and motherhood, feminism, and identity are all up for redefinition. (00:00) Intro (01:22) Who Is Katherine Ryan? (01:50) Embracing Femininity and Feminism (03:59) Why Turning 40 Is Actually Great (07:09) Oversharing, Shame, and Owning Your Story (09:31) Protecting Children on Social Media (11:55) Katherine on Her Parents and Childhood (15:21) Learning to Stop Caring What Others Think (17:13) Dealing With Offense, Annoying People, and Growing Thick Skin (20:31) How Katherine Brokered Her Parents' Divorce at 15 (26:49) Single Motherhood and Spoiling Her Kids (31:29) Do Parents Really Have a Favourite Child? (32:34) Ancient & Brave Ad (33:40) Reuniting With Her High School Sweetheart (43:27) Working at Hooters: The Untold Story (49:37) Starting Stand-Up at 20 and Being a Woman in Comedy (56:33) Misogyny, the Patriarchy, Plastic Surgery, and Self-Love (01:05:56) Inside Katherine’s Parenting Style (01:15:24) Working in British Television (01:22:18) What Legacy Does Katherine Ryan Want to Leave? Sponsored by: Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet and use code BEGINAGAIN for 20% off your order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The nice thing about getting older, and I think maybe you have a touch of it now. Botox. No. Oh. But, like, yes. So I wanted to be a Hooters girl, and I kept getting in trouble from my smart mouth, and there was a comedy club next to the Hooters, and so that's where I would go. But I was not as happy as a child.

My mom started dating a 22-year-old. My dad stonewalled her completely. You ended up brokering the custody deal. For a 15-year-old, that's a lot. Adults I didn't even know were making fun of my family. And that gave you an armor, do you think? I very quickly became a single mother in a foreign country, in a bad relationship. And I can't imagine what that would feel like there were lookers than comedians.

Who would be like, you don't want to dress like that? Because the men will be distracted by you and the women will hate you. I think it's a mistake to assume that when we dress well, get Botox or plastic surgery, that that is anything to do with the male gaze. It is very lonely, I think, for certain women. for certain women to look in the mirror and not recognize their best friend, and that is just yourself. We want to be the right kind of feminist or the right kind of woman or the right kind of mother. And then we get lost in the shame when we can't execute all of those things.

Well, how would you like people to remember you? But I just want to be a problem. So today I am talking to a woman who has begun again many times, been very brave. She's always changing, always different. The ultimate feminist, I feel. Yes, I mean, she looks surprised when I say that, but we're going to get into this. Catherine Ryan, everybody.

Woo! Hello. Woo, woo, woo. I don't know if I'm giving feminist at the minute. Well, you know, I'd quite like to dive into feminist right at the beginning. Trave life, heteronormative cum dumpster. This is so interesting because what I love about you, is you are half tradwife.

Yeah. Half radical feminist. That's how I feel. Yeah. And I'm so grateful to you for that. Because I think there are a lot of people that are a little bit of everything. That's true. Mm.

So how did you come to be so feminine and womanly? I mean, I know your mum was a big influence in that department, right? Well, yeah, I think a lot of us are juxtapositions in ourselves. And then we want to be the right kind of feminist or the right kind of woman or the right kind of mother or the right kind of business person. And then we get lost in the shame when we can't execute all of those things. Well, and I think that what I am is just shame free about all the facets of myself that might be undesirable. So sometimes I speak about times that I did lean into the top. toxic feminism of the early nalties when I thought that the best thing that you could be was

beautiful. You'd have the easiest life if you were soft and gentle and non-threatening. And I worked at Hooters and I did bikini pageants and I went to the Playboy Mansion and my mom modeled a lot of that even though she knew it was toxic to. We're from what I call the girl band generation. The like nothing tastes as good as skinny feels generation. So I don't think that that's aspirational necessarily and neither did my mother at the time growing up with body dysmorphia and very cursedly beautiful. She knew that that was bullshit and she advocated being independent and strong, but we still like that stuff. Like I still want to have loads of surgery after this baby's born. I still want to be pretty. It is a little bit challenging, getting your head around aging,

getting on the wrong side of 40. Thanks for inviting me on a podcast. about middle age. Oh, I'm clearly navigating a teen pregnancy. Do you know what was really funny? I was just thinking, because I've seen you react to the word geriatric pregnancy in, I think it was in a music. Duchess. Oh, yes, maybe.

But how funny that is that, what is it? It's like after 34 or 35, something like that, you are a geriatric mother. I remember that myself. I was 39 when I had. had my last child and that word was banded around with me and how how funny that is. But how hard? I found 40 harder than 50. How did how was turning 40 for you? It was kind of fine because I think I've definitely become happier, more relaxed, the older I get. Like my 40s are a much happier 10 than my 20s. Yeah. So and I see women like you. Like so many women, I would see Louise Rednapp in

the press, I think around the time of a very public split. And I think she was 40 or something. And I went, wow, like, I think those women are just a little bit older than you. You go, they're busy, booked, strong, gorgeous. They have, like, friends and freedom. And I think women just that few years older than I am made it really aspirational for me to be in my 40s and now in my 50s and now in my 60s and I think it's changed. If you look at the Golden Girls, Blanche has the line which is like, well, I'm 34 and I was like, what? It's just about hair. It was about the perm, I think, did women wrong for a decade. I mean, it was instantly aging, right? And it needed so much upkeep. You'd have to be in the hairdressers looking really ancient with the little rollers and

everything. Rollers are aging. I mean, we're probably doing something like that now and we don't realize. Yes. Well, in 20 years. somebody will go, oh my God, straightening her. I mean, why wait 20 years? We've got teenagers. Yes. You'll tell us. Yes.

It's very humbling having a teenager. Yeah. What's the funniest thing that your teenagers said to you? She's funny. It's tricky with her privacy because I think she's so funny. But I've always been mindful. And this has been the challenge of my work, I think, since she was a baby. And since I've had bad relationships and things like that is to really deliver your

authentic truth and tell secrets about yourself because that's my language of love, intimacy through like people just telling me secrets and I tell people my secrets. But sparing those who are close to you. So you tell little lies to disguise people whilst delivering a central truth. And I think especially being 16, she should have privacy. But some of the funniest thing she says, I can't even repeat because she's really good. She's like a good roast comic and then she has friendship things that I can't talk about and she roasts me and you know she has things go out in her life that I would love to tell people but it's an exercise and discipline for me I don't don't repeat her slams do you know what I really like about you

is a it's a hard and fine line being famous and um you are somebody I I I I I'm going to hold your hands in fact and just say, thank you. I barely lean forward. No, you don't lean forward. You stay there. I'll lean. I have nobody. But thank you for this thing of telling us everything.

I tell you everything. Yeah, because it is a way of having a deeper friendship with somebody is when you reveal. So what you're doing with all of your followers and fans and everything is by revealing these things about, yourself, we know you, what you show us. Yeah. I know you don't show us everything. Pretty much at this point. But I didn't think it was very English. I think that's why I was a little bit of a shock on the scene. Yeah. People were like, it's not. Why would you say that? Specifically, I think in another interview I spoke about just some sexual liaisons at work. And again, the aforementioned naughtys and people are like, why would you be proud of that? People get lost in this space of

shame or pride. And there are a lot of things that I say about my life and my experiences that I have neither shame nor pride about. I just say them because they have to. And then, I think that lack of shame is something that we look at you. And we are, you, you, release something in us by not having the shame around that. Good. That's why are we embarrassed about it? Yeah. Why do you think the Brits are so embarrassed about talking about things?

I mean, you've been here for quite a long time. Yeah. I think the British culture values, nostalgia and tradition a lot more than certainly I do. Or Canadians, like if something's old in Canada, we knock it down and build a new one. Whereas you are more like, don't disparage your family. Remember where you come from. Yes, that's very interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

Whereas I've disparaged my family a lot. That's why I didn't care about giving the children my surname. I've done enough with that. They don't want that surname. I've dragged it through the mud. They can have my husband's very anonymous surname. Yes, and live great lives. Yeah.

The other thing I think is wonderful is this idea of, you value your children's privacy. But interestingly, but it's got to her own TikTok, well, very successful TikTok page. And we can see she's funny on that. Were you surprised by the success of that?

And has that made you nervous at all? Yeah, I think she's always had an awareness of what putting yourself out in public looks like. Like everything that you publish, and we use the word publish, not post. You publish online. Is there forever? You have to be careful who you speak to.

You have to be careful what you say. Like I kept her off social media entirely until she was about 14, 15. And then we would check her phone. The understanding is still she has a password that we know. But now that she's 16, I don't spot check it anymore. Yeah, good. I believe in that as well. Good, yeah.

I think children need their own privacy after a while. and it sounds like you have instilled the right thoughts processes for her around social media and now it's up to her. I don't know that she would always behave herself, you know, the way she should on social media. I just have to trust it at 16. I think you have a cutoff time. You instill what you can and then now she likes. She is funny.

She's quite funny. She has this. She has this, and I think it's good now that I have the babies. And I do raise them in somewhat of a controversial sense in terms of whatever people want to call attachment parenting, gentle parenting. I do this early potty training. I do things. I co-sleep with them like the dog, F. Peter Pan. With Violet, she is a good example, a decade at least, older than all the babies, of someone who has a very regulated central nervous system, someone who has a real quiet confidence.

I don't worry about her. I think if you have a mentally resilient 16-year-old, I don't really care what else she's doing. So whatever I've done seems to have worked with Violet so far. Well, I think even the idea that you feel like that, it's worked. Yeah. You know, you're not an anxious parent because you believe she's okay. I do.

Yeah, and I... I mean, that's good. She's quite healthy. She's better than I was. 16? What were you like at 16? Bad. DeVina.

Me too. Yeah. You have an excuse. Well, my difficult, I guess my mother was a quite difficult person. But having any Frenchness. Having any Frenchness. You know what I mean? Those ladies, they're not the, you know, I think they have a different parenting style.

Yes. And God love them. I think they, you know, but you had a tumultuous upbringing. She was an alcoholic. Lived with your parents. That was quite mad. Yeah. So, I mean, there you go.

Whatever you navigated, you have come out massively the other side, and it's been gray. What about you at 16? I have nothing because my mom wasn't an alcoholic. Yeah. For God's sakes. I mean... There was a lot of alcoholism, though. But your parents did divorce.

Yes. And you were 15 when that happened. Yeah. That must have been quite hard. What was that like? Well, a few things happened at once. So, for a start, I was not as happy as my children were from the get-go. I always had, it was always an artist, maybe I had like a tumultuous idea of what my life was and who I was and I was never settled the way my children really appear to be.

They're pleased with themselves every day. I would be writing poetry. I was kind of the original Taylor Swift where... The OG. Yeah, the OG. Mine was more like bars. But like writing hate songs about unrequited love and just really feel. trapped, not liking being in a small town.

Yes. Writing letters like, nobody loves me and this family. And I just didn't feel like the people in charge were qualified to look after me. When you talk about the people in charge, are you talking about your parents? Anyone. My parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, I was like, these people don't know what they're doing. I need to get out of here. I was always, like, very autonomous.

What type of parenting did they do? Did that shape your parenting? Were you like, I don't want to do it like that? Well, I think my mom was a really, really, really good mother, a really hands-on, very smart, very devoted mother. But there was an angst with her because my mom, if anyone thinks I hate men, have a chat with Julie McCarthy. That woman, she will not. You won't get five minutes with my mom where she's like, well, 98% of all violent crap. Like that's my mom.

And she's not wrong. That's where I get it from. But she grew up in quite an abusive alcoholic household, I think I feel at liberty to say. And then she married young and I think probably married for the wrong reasons. My dad was fine, but my dad was older than she was anti-Irish and very traditional. He had just moved over from Cork. And everyone in my small Canadian town was like, this man is tall and exotic because no one had come from anywhere. Right.

So they didn't really know that an Irishman born in the 50s. wouldn't be an incredibly, like, you know. In touch. With his self. Right. Like, yeah. So I think my mom was expected to work full time, have meals prepared, be a beautiful, and she was a trophy wife, you know, like she was really beautiful.

And, but that's not who my mom is. She's, like, spicy and smart and challenging. And, yeah, she's a lot. But I'm also like my dad. And then, so I had a really happy childhood, lots of musical theater, sisters. It's fascinating how our upbringing and who we are surrounded by and the energy that they bring, how it affects our development as women. And I think one of the things that I have loved about you is, and now it's so clear why that's happened, is this. sort of dichotomy of

you, I've see you so well presented all the time. You always look absolutely glorious. I can't tell you how brilliant you look pregnant. I was a disappointment to myself. I was dungarees and crocs. I mean, I

don't ever wear crocs, but I gave up when I was pregnant and I just went full crock. Crocs are back. I can't do it. Okay. But that's who I am. I was dressed up person.

I went through a parenting season. And now I'm back in my dress-up season. I know. And that's what's quite nice. Like, I think we should all allow everybody to go into whatever season they want. And thank you for that, because your outfits are really inspirational. And they bring me joy. And I think you can look at it as a service to your audience.

You're like, you know, this is a bit for me, but mostly it's for you. Because when I look at you, I'm the Masked Singer especially that is full glam. Yes. Do you know what I mean? I love that. You're giving permission for those of women who might still be navigating a season where they don't feel like they can be their full selves or they're told by someone toxic that it's, you know, mutton dressed as lamb. That's something early doors my dad used to say about my mom. I've definitely had that.

It's rude. But you know what? This is another quite nice thing about getting older that you have to look forward to. Yes. And I think maybe you have a touch of it now. Botox. No.

Oh. But like, yes. But I enjoy annoying people. Yeah. But I see people looking at me like... Like in the street? On the tube in particular. Oh, she's why.

And I think, yeah, get annoyed. I love it. Because I think there's almost like a pleasure. I don't know. Like how do you feel about winding people up a bit? So you're not supposed to do that. Yeah. Look like that.

I certainly don't go out of my way to wind anybody up. And in stand up, if I wind someone up or if I hurt them or they haven't got a sense of humor that I anticipated they might have about something that does make me sad. I've hurt people's feelings, celebrity's feelings. And what? Oh, celebrities. Just like slag them off. I've got a special coming off at Christmas that, you know, might upset some of the Love Islanders. But I don't mean to be hurtful.

I'm just trying to be funny. I mean, yeah, you're not going out of your way to wind them up either. You love that look. Yes. And then you think maybe you, here's the thing. You're still entertaining people and that's your job. And some people really want that. that sense of community where they slag something off that they all know in common.

It's very tribal, actually, to be like, you see Divina and they all know you, so you become someone in the village that they know. And they'll go, well, she's da-da-da-da. And they get a sense of entertainment and release from slagging you off, maybe in their, you know, Tupperware party. I don't know what they're doing. But you, but that's fun for them. But it's never bothered you. No, no, because it's still an act of service. It's like, my job is to entertain you. And if you want to take entertainment the way I deliver it, then that's great. But if you want to take a different route and still have some fun at my expense, I don't mind about that either. It doesn't bother me at all. So how did you, you have thick skin? And I feel like this is something that many viewers of

this podcast will go, please teach you how to have thicker skin. I wish I could get less offended or be less hurt by things. I know. And I even have one sister who hasn't got it. And so I have tried to explain my process a few times and it either hits or it doesn't. And that sister has been through divorce and navigating co-parenting and moved to the other side of the country.

You know, she's had things that are big things. And so I'm not really sure why she cares at all about what people think. So do you think it's the experiences that you live in life that make you thicker-skinned? I would think that, but then my sister wouldn't be so sensitive. She's just born a little bit more earnest and sensitive than my other sister. Which sister is she? The middle one, Joanne. Yeah.

She's just always been. But it is interesting, the order, because what I thought was fascinating about your story was that your parents split at 15. Yeah. But they actually just didn't speak. to each other, it was a bad split. And that you ended up kind of brokering the custody deal. I mean, for a 15-year-old, that's a lot. Well, yeah, and getting back to that, I told you when we first started speaking about the divorce, lots happened at the same time. So being 15 is difficult. Yes, in itself. And I know girls hit puberty at like 9 or 10 now, but I didn't until 15. So I had

puberty. I was also pointedly ugly, like orthodontically. It mattered a lot at that time. I just wasn't an attractive 15-year-old, which they all are now because they've got makeup tutorials on YouTube. But I was like a hideous 15. And braces at 10. Yeah. And I knew it. So I was like, I didn't have the body that I wanted, which was all saints. I didn't have like the teeth that I wanted. I was getting braces on and off and my eyebrows. were crazy. My eyebrows were crazy. And that troubled me a lot.

I think, again, because I had the values and had this beautiful mom who just got more beautiful in a toxic way because her divorce made her very thin. Right. So thin. Like a size six, but still with huge boobs. And only 40.

So, like, still looked great. And then my boyfriend split up with me and both my grandpans. parents died. When, all when you were 15? All that year. It was the death of my grandmother that prompted my mom to finally leave my dad because she'd

been unhappy for a long time. And then when my mom initiated the divorce, my dad resisted again for traditional, I think, cultural, religious reasons. There was a lot of shame in the Irish Catholic community with divorce anyway. And the divorce was great for my daddy as a partner now who's so much more well suited to him. Your stepmom? Yes. Tell me about her.

Oh, she's great. Great. Sharebear. She's called Cheryl. She and my dad golf together. She likes looking after him where my mom, like, didn't. She's like a real caretaker. I think again in birth order, she's like the youngest daughter. And she's just so caring. Younger than my dad. He likes them. Not too much younger. Okay. But on the subject of younger, when my parents divorced or during the split, I'm not sure what the paperwork was at that time. My mom started dating a 22. year old. He might have been 23, but I think he wasn't. He was 22. He was 22. And Abe the babe. He's from the Mennonite community. That's why his name's Abram. That's also why he's like, what's a men. Oh, it's like Amish. Oh, okay. Yeah. Which means that he's like ripped and very straight edge, like doesn't really drink alcohol, been vegan from birth, can build a house. Wow. Yeah, really sexy. And my dad didn't like that. And no one in the community like. Like, that. No. Because at that time, I don't even know if Demi Moore and Ashton Gretcher.

So there was no other public figures who had that big an age gap. No, it was giving Cougar, Miltf controversy. It's really interesting how people struggle with women, all the women and younger men. A lot. And they had an 18 year age difference. And that was really controversial in my small community. And again, it's like high school when you grow up in a small town. And there were adults who would stop me on the street and be like, your mom, like to slag my mother off to me, I was 15, and be like, what do you call him, your brother? And I'd be like, oh, my God. But to me, at that time, I was not impervious to shame or criticism. At that time. Yeah, okay. At that time, everything was kicking off in my life. It was like

the ugliest girl in the town. I had this really hot mom who had caused me as far as I could see controversy and shame and also loads of responsibility because my dad's stone. stonewalled her completely. Stonewalling was really his thing. Yeah. Before we knew it was toxic. Um, so just never spoke to her again. Like, he's never said a word to her really since. I don't even think he's said hello since. And that was, how old am I now? 42. Like, almost 30 years ago, he spoke to her. Yeah. And there have been weddings. They don't speak. So I had to like just navigate getting the girls here and there and passports and if you did all of that. Well, I was the go-between, like the little, yeah, which was fine, because I actually appreciated

people treating me like an adult at that age, but it was probably not age-appropriate. In retrospect. And that gave you an armor, do you think? Was it not yet? Well, or did it start the process? started because when you talk about enjoying, annoying people, as much as it bothered me that my mom in my eyes at that time through just living her authentic life had put me in this position where I became a target in my community and people were making fun of me. Adults I didn't even know

were making fun of me and making fun of my family. Deep down, I knew that they were wrong and it did annoy me and I thought, good. Like I liked that these old men in the town were angry with my mother. I think it's secretly, I knew it was cool. So that's when it all started.

There's a part of you, I feel like, as a parent, and please tell me if I'm wrong because I'm making huge kind of like decisions about you. Assumptions about you. You'll be very, Right. But I feel like, a bit like me. Well, my idea with parenting was that I want to make adults, young adults, who will leave home and never look back.

And actually now that they're all doing that and they're not fucking looking back, I'm like, hello, just once. Like, look back once. Like, I didn't know. No, but what I'm trying to say is I don't want somebody to be clinging onto my leg, terrified of going out into the big wide world. The idea is I build a confident young adult who's like, I want to go see the world. Is that what you've wanted to do with your kids? Or are you scared about emptiness? You know, you're nearly there. Like 16 is... Yeah.

Well, I don't want anyone to leave on bad terms or prematurely. I do have fear about that because I want everyone to, well, I do, yeah, I'm concerned that maybe I create a situation where they can't leave because I am very indulgent now. And my husband's like, you're sort of chopping them off at the knees. If you pay for everything and you facilitate everything and you make it too easy for them, like don't you look back because my husband and I have known each other since that age. He is the one who broke up with me when I was 15, 16. Yeah. Woring everything up going on a minute because he's a legend. But he remembers that and he has struggled and I have struggled at times and he's like,

don't you want to gift them that? And I think to myself, yes, but then I give them the credit card and I never discipline anyone so I don't know. But I get I do get this. And my husband identified it for me because I used to joke about it when she was younger and there was no male energy around to tell us what to do. I'd be like, oh, we're not like a mom and an eight-year-old. We're like two eight-year-olds, but one of us has cellulite and a credit card.

That's what it was like. I was like, we can have everything now. And I hate to think that she might not be able to afford something that she might be at a register and be like, oh, I can't afford that. For some reason, that makes me anxious. I don't like that. And have you ever been comfortable with it? Yes. Is that what it is?

I think so. I think you go one way or the other. There are people who grow up financially insecure, or they have a period. I didn't grow up financially insecure, although my parents didn't buy me anything, but that was just normal in the 80s. They were fine. I didn't have to worry about, like, food. But when I moved to the UK was the first time that I was super financially insecure. And I was coming off the back of quite a successful life. I was always the smartest. in my class. I was good at the musical theater. I was funny. I had friends. People expected a lot of me when I worked at Hooters. I was rich because I was a really good waitress. I kind of went from being good at everything and then moving away from my hometown at 19 and being financially solvent and having this beautiful condo. Like I was a rich 19 year old because of tax evasion and waitressing. Those days are gone. There's no cash anymore. But then I moved here and I was really, really poor and I hated it. And I was, and that was probably shameful as well because I couldn't just go back home with my tail between my legs. Yes, okay. You had to make something. Yeah. And I was like,

oh gosh, what have I done? And I very quickly became a single mother in a foreign country, in a bad relationship with no financial support from my daughter's father at all, which I learned early on that he was not going to be someone I could rely on for that. He was like to woo-woo. But I went, oh, Christ. And that was not a good feeling. I didn't like that. I certainly didn't like that as a mother. And I was lucky to turn it around quickly. But I do think I have like financial anxiety about any of my children going without. Well, because even though I know it's formative and it's important. And it's back on those years really fondly, I can't do it. I mean, I can't imagine what that would feel. Like, I was very lucky. I had children when I was financially solvent. I was on Big Brother.

And I basically gave birth on Big Brother practically three times. And I knew that they were going to be okay when they were born. But the idea of having a small child and then not having money to be able to look after her or being frightened about how you were going to provide. Yeah. It would shape your life, right? For the better, I think. But that's why Viaglia. That's my favorite. And I say that. Oh my God. Wait, wait, stop.

Wait, what? Yeah. You can't. What? Do you know, oh my God, that is so funny. I, like, my kids are always going, who's your favorite, or they make up ideas of the, but like, I have never said any of my children are my favorite. That is amazing.

I can say it. Violet's my favorite. She's the firstborn daughter. But I, and I think people don't like that. That's a very provocative thing to say as well. No, I love that. And I don't worry about it hurting my other children's feelings because I go, those are Nepo babies.

Like, guess what? She's my favorite. You get to go to private school. She's my favorite. You get to grow up with a dad. Life's not fair. She's my favorite. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense in a way, doesn't it? Like, they have privileges that she doesn't and she has a privilege that they don't. Yes. Yes. How do you take your tea, Davina? Milk, no sugar and a scoop of AME. BTC please. And be what?

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Dot earth slash planet and just use the code begin again to get 20% off result. Choose to that. Choose to that. I want to talk about Bobby because Bobby came into your life. He'd been a partner of yours at school. Had you dated at school?

Yes. Like very heavy. Okay. First love. I loved him. I always loved him. Always. I really loved him at the time.

I think energetically, it's interesting because you only have, what is it called, confirmed bias when you think you remember something, but you're remembering like an adult version of what you think you remember. But at the time. I think because of the tradition of our community and, like, his sisters, some of them married the boys that they were dating in high school and his parents. Wouldn't be crazy if you did. In our town, it is not crazy. A lot of my girlfriends are married to the guys that were with in high school. They're not happy.

They read a lot of, you know, erotic fiction. God bless the erotic fiction. They're making do big at a nice house. But it would not be unheard of to marry your high school sweetheart. And I met Bobby and I loved Bobby and I thought we were going to get married. And then he had the more worldly view of like, oh, well, we're obviously not going to get married. We have lives to live. We have to.

He wanted to focus on football. And I wanted to like go off and do these things. And I thought, well, no, no. What do you mean? Like, we'll just, and he broke my heart. It was a very serious relationship. We got back together a few times. But then ultimately.

It's really hard, isn't it, the get back together bit? Yeah. And when you're a teenager, everything's so amplified. So that's why I'm like, did I love him or was I going through puberty with my first love? I don't know. So he attempted to reach out to you over the next while, didn't he? He did. I love that.

Like, of course he did. Of course he did. I was waiting. But, you know, if you did love him and you always loved him. Yeah. Why didn't it rekindle in those first times when he contacted you? Were you like, no, you don't get to come back. Like, he wasn't explicitly trying to come back. Also, it wouldn't have made sense. He had a life in Canada. He married someone else. They didn't have children, but he married someone else. And then I made a post. Well, I thought he was a red flag. My instincts were probably right. He probably is like most men, a massive red flag. But I commented, oh, my first love got married today. I guess my husband and daughter tell me it's definitely over now. It was like a joke because I wasn't married, but I had Violet.

And the joke was like, oh, he's moved on, so I guess it's done. But I had this family. Yes. It was like one of my first tweets, I think. And he responded, 50% of marriages end in divorce, Catherine. Who comments that? That's a red flag. But their relationship by then was on the rocks, I guess.

But yeah. So, like, he was doing. little, pitched out another few times, but I just thought it wasn't a tangible thing. It was flirtatious, but I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then at what point were you like, yeah, yeah, yeah? Well, he started behaving in late 2018, like a single man online. So we had mutual friends because we grew up together. And I know his sisters. And I saw his online presence. my sexually frustrated girlfriends who've married their high school sweethearts, they actually highlighted to me on the group chat, have you seen Bobby's Instagram? I said, no, I don't follow.

I'll bless the girlfriends. Yeah, because they had seen Bobby's Instagram. And I was like, no, I don't follow Bobby on Instagram. So then I followed him, which was an interaction, I suppose. And I noticed Jim selfie after Jim selfie, like some real, the behavior of a man who was single. And then I went to Canada. that December to film Who Do You Think You Are? And we hadn't spoken.

We still hadn't spoken. I just watched his Instagram stories a few times. And for some reason I knew that if I posted on my Instagram that I was going out in Toronto that evening with my sister that he would come. I just knew he would. And I just posted, oh, I'm going to this place with my sister tonight. Anyone have any recommendations? And he turned up in the pub. And he just turned up.

He didn't message you to say he was turning up. He had message like, why don't you go to this other place? but I didn't go there. I was like, not going there because I was going to this place with my sister. So he did send one message, yes. And then he came to the pub, and then we had a one-night stand that went horribly wrong. Oh, no, why? Because now we have all these kids.

Oh. That was not the game. I just thought it would be funny to shag him. And it was funny. You're serious. Yeah. Did you get pregnant? No.

Like very quickly. Yeah. We were married nine months later. And then, yeah. But it wasn't my intention to do that because I really did enjoy being single. I did. And I never fancied myself as someone who would be married and live in this nuclear family. But, yeah, you just were really still in love, I guess.

And wait, wait, what was that first night like then if you were back with somebody that you really love that you physically knew? Yeah. Wow. Really good physical chemistry with him. Really? Yes. And then, I mean, like, I don't want to take it to. No.

But to be like getting off, getting off with someone when you're a teenager. Yes. I don't think a lot of teenagers, women have orgasms. No. No. No. And I was like, what? I shocked me.

I was, what is this boy? Yes. He was. That's chemistry. Yep. And then I never really did again until we're back. So, yeah, he's like, we have sexual chemistry. And then also I just left him

And he messaged me the next day Which I don't know Not really been on the dating scene But I don't think boys do that And he was just no nonsense Yeah He was like I want to have kids and get married I feel like

And a man, he was 35 And I was 35 And a man was like I think I've missed out on that Because I'm 35 And I was like What? Haven't you met men? You could be 95

And start your family with some like catalog model. And he was like, no. He's very sensible and traditional and not a pedo, crucially. You know, he's like, I want to have a wife and a family and a house and kids. And I worry sometimes that I've missed out on that. And now I know why I hadn't done that and I want to do it with you. And so I think when people are dating at any age, older, younger, I think they're encouraged to hold back, to play games, to be coy.

And Bobby was not. He was like, yeah, let's do this as soon as we can. What I like about the story about you and Bobby is that you are both small town originals. Like you started in a small town. And you have that brilliant combination of kind of slightly pining after a slightly traditional life. And that is a shared value that's really a big. big one. I think it's really beautiful when different cultures come together. Yeah. And I think it can work and it's amazing. But Bobby and I are from such a similar culture. And when I say culture, I don't mean

Canadian or white or anything like that. I just mean you can have a culture even existing in your home. Yes. We went to the same school and grew up on the same road and we have all the same friends. You know what I mean? Like we are culturally in a way very similar. that it did make for a lot of easy shorthand. It sort of made me understand arranged marriages and things like that. Because when you have such a similar background, there are so many things in your marriage that you just don't have to discuss. There's not, you know, because I've dated people from different faiths

and different backgrounds and different countries and that works for people, but you do have to negotiate. We don't. We just kind of read each other's minds. We are brother and sister potentially. So might say it is a worry. Yeah, we've got so much in common. Grandparents, yeah.

And so you guys came, you got, you guys got together over in Canada but got married and then he came back here and he lives with you here. Yeah, we got together in Canada. He came to London to visit on like a tourist visa. Then we got married in Copenhagen at 11 a.m. And I went to work that night and did a gig in London. Wow. We didn't have a wedding. We just like went to a quarter.

warehouse and then, yeah, we live in London with our kids, with our 45 kids. Yes, I mean, you've got three and one more on the way. Overdue, Davina. Overdue. Yeah, they won't let me go past Friday. Now, hold on, what date is it today? Oh, no, okay, because there's a full moon, but it's not until the beginning of November. I cannot. No, you're not going to be. No. So they're not going to let you go past Friday. Mm-hmm. Induced on Friday? Yeah. God, I am so lucky. I am so to be talking to you today. You're not. I am.

I'm going to take that. I was going to make it. Privileged. I would have come regardless. How cute would it have been if I had a newborn and we could have this chat? And you could hold the newborn. And I could be drunk. Oh, you could be drunk.

Oh, my God. Oh, well. But we're having this fat chat instead. No, you look absolutely glorious. And I'd like to talk about the way you felt about yourself because you have mentioned a couple of times. When did you decide that you were going to, I know that we talked about sorting your teeth out and that was something like one of the first things. Which everyone did. It was just normal to races. In Canada and America, you were way, I mean, it was a, the British teeth situation was a joke with Americans.

We did, yes. For many, many years, you'd look at like British people go, what the heck? But nowadays, I think we've all kind of got into old kids get. orthodontings and braces and but when you got your job at Hooters you were 19 can you just explain to anybody that's

watching that's British that might not know what Hooters is? So they do think it's a topless restaurant and it's not. It is very much like being a cheerleader we have sports on TV and beer and chicken wings and because I was a corporate trainer I can tell you the entire

introduction of of Hooters. It was created in 1983, just like me, by these guys in Florida, who's, they were businessmen, and they had a secretary, the original five, they were called, and they had a secretary who would run for exercise, and she would wear socks, like sports socks, and little orange shorts and a vest. And she was very all-American and open and friendly, not sexual. It wasn't like a stripper, nothing to do with like sex work. She was just a wholesome girl who was sexy to them. And that's what they modeled the Hooters girl on. And then they added the tacky branding of the owl. I tell people I worked in an owl sanctuary if they get too judgmental about it. But it's not

a strip club. And if it were, we're very positive about sex work now, but it wasn't. It was kids eat free on weekends. And what I loved about Hooters is that it was a brand I recognized. I wanted to be that kind of secretary. I wanted to be the kind of wholesome, bouncing, young woman who men went, oh, isn't she lovely? I thought that that was a place where I could learn that, but I didn't. I was still this, like still mouthy and still provocative. And there was a comedy club next to the Hooters, and that's where I would go. And that's where I started comedy because I kept getting in trouble at Hooters for my smart mouth. I was fired like a few future. I was fired like a future. times for different things, just having, just things like that, just accidentally causing political

upheaval in the restaurant. And again, I think this is all contributing towards you having a thicker skin. So when you got fired for this kind of thing, how did you, how did you feel? Were you like horrified? Yeah. But also like, oh well, or were you not a well? I cried and cried and cried and cried. And not because I was fired because I knew I'd weasel my way back because I was such a waitress. I never wanted to hurt people. And I was so mortified that I didn't like to be in trouble. Again, male energy, this boss screamed in my face and was really cutting, like, to the core of what I knew was wrong with me. He was like, why are you so weird all the time? Why do you have to say stuff like that? And in front of everyone and the rest of it goes, not everybody gets it, Catherine.

And that has been the soundtrack of my whole life. Not everybody gets it. I know. I'm like an acquired taste sometimes. That's why we love you. Well, that's what ended up being my strength. Yes. Even looking a little cartoony and having a long face ended up being, no, I do. Jimmy Carr taught me that. He goes all like successful entertainers, have a bit of cartoony thing about him. With Jimmy, you would say like teeth and Lego hair and the suit. And what's yours? My nose. Your nose?

You have a lovely nose. Yeah, I love my nose. But it's not a nose. Yeah, fine, good. And all the tools that you try to throw away when you are assimilating and you just want to be invisible and young, that's again, what's powerful about being middle age and plus is you recognize, oh, those were my tools. All those things I tried to get rid of to assimilate are the things that made me special. Yeah, so he screamed at me in my face, but I got my job back. So I'm just thinking about Catherine 19 Hooters, enjoying being a feminine, people appreciating you, probably making quite good tips, great tips, making good money, feeling the confidence of that.

I, as a young girl myself, I can fully appreciate how you felt. I wanted to be feminine, look nice, the clothes that I would wear clubbing. You know, I wore those for myself, but and for the entertainment of other people. Like, look mad, wear outrageous outfits, be controversial. Look at me, look at me. I was quite a, I was a peacock. You would have been a hooters girl. I would have totally been a hooters girl. We were all very like-minded.

Yes. Girls who, and we created this matriarchy where there were men who would come down from the office and yell at you every once in a while. But day to day, you. we were kind of untethered. We ran the restaurant. We were smart. We collaborated. I got to spend all day with women.

Yes. The men at Hooters weren't that lecheress at all. I'd worked in other bars and restaurants where they were worse. I was going to say, if you wanted to be leched at, you wouldn't work at Hooters or you wouldn't go to Hooters because it wasn't that kind of bar. I've been to America quite a lot. Yeah. And I've been to Hooters. And it's not that energy.

I was leched at more walking from college to Hooters. than in Hooters. Yes, interesting. But yeah, all the girls there were really fun and layered and quite smart and just different. Maybe from small towns and came to the big city and just wanted to Hulu Hoop and golf caddy. Be roughly the same age? Yeah. We were all like late teens, early 20s.

Wow. You were not really allowed to work there beyond that. And a real solidarity. Yes, there's still, my friends, I'm still. still in contact. Really? Yeah. They did a reunion that I couldn't go to because I was here. But my sister went. Oh my God. My sister worked there. Yeah. It's good. It was a sisterhood. You talked about the comedy place next to it and that you'd gone there. But did you go there first and see some comedy and think, wow, this is amazing. How did you decide that you thought

you could have a go at that? Because I think, am I right in saying you were 20? Yeah. I mean, That feels to me, when I think about my daughters, 22, 24, unbelievably young and brave. Like, talk about a begin again, hooters, and then going to stand-up comedy. It's like, wow. Well, one thing about moving from a small city to a big city to begin again is you're totally anonymous. I had never been anonymous. So it was the opposite.

Okay. Yeah. So in your town to do something extraordinary, everybody would know. But when you move to a town, a city, suddenly it's like, no one knows who I am. I could be whatever I want. Right. And the last thing I was famous for was my mom's controversial relationship. And if I had done stand-up comedy in my town, first of all, I don't think it existed.

But secondly, people would have been out for blood. You know, I would have been ruthlessly made fun of. But when you go to this big city and it was so multicultural and it was amazing. And so it was the opposite of seeking attention. It was like, I'm going to try to do this thing that I respect. I'd only seen it on television, maybe a few times live. I'd seen stand up. And also, I knew that, well, I want to be a good girl.

At that time, I still, I didn't want to be a comedian. I wanted to be a Hooters girl. I thought I might open a Hooters franchise one day. I didn't know what I would do. I was just navigating being 1920. So I thought I will exercise my demons at this comedy club. It will be fun for me. I'll do it anonymously.

I never told anyone I was doing it. And it was fun. But then I ended up finding a tribe there who were the alternative comedians, the queer community in the comedy club, the very few women in the comedy club. So it was cool. I mean, let's talk about how few women there are in comedy. I mean, the stats are crazy, I think.

Yeah. The number of female comedians there are in comparison to men. Why do you think that is? I think it's changing now because all comedians are having to, enter the circuit in a different way. So they're coming through on social media. They can make videos. And I think that is a great equalizer.

I think social media is very democratic, really. A young woman or, you know, a person from a different socioeconomic background or, you know, any mixed ethnicity person kind of has a similar chance because there aren't any gatekeepers with social media. It's just if you get a following, you get a following. and then commissioners on their sinking ship that is television, they're like, wow, get these influencers on the panel shows that are remaining. But in my day, I think it was almost dangerous to do the circuit in the way that men could do it. So they would take night buses and they would earn very little money in the beginning stages of carving out their career. And they'd be out late at night.

They'd be walking late at night. And then if you get a little bit more known, then you publish where someone could come kill you on a Friday night. Like, it is quite vulnerable to be like, hey, I will be walking around the back roads of Cambridge at 9 p.m. Come kill me October 17th. So I just think women are more hypervigilant about stuff like that. Some men would sleep on the floor in these comedian houses, like four of them. we don't have the same safety or we certainly didn't at that time. A lot of predatory behavior was probably going unregulated at that time where it wouldn't now.

It's kind of a different world. But also, I think it was, and I'm from a place of privilege because, again, by then, I didn't really care what anyone thought of me. By then, I was pretty impervious to criticism. I was going to say that too. and impoverished and impervious to criticism. But I think there are women who did feel quite knocked back when a booker would say, oh, no, we have enough women, we don't need a woman. Or like, women aren't funny.

Or you'd be brought on stage by a compare who would apologize for your gender before. Like, oh, sorry, the next act is a woman. That would happen a lot. Oh, my God. I think Joe Brand went on in between exotic dancers in the men's working. clubs when she started. Yeah. And like it is a different ballgame now.

I think I'm really positive and peaceful about the fact that it's changed. Yeah. And I feel badly complaining because I had a pretty easy time of it compared to some. Why? I don't know. I think, I think looking back, because I'm confronted by old videos now, because I've been on television in this country since 2012. well. I think, oh, from a third-party perspective, I'm like, she's quite different. I think being

different gets people's attention. Being young and pretty probably at that time really helped as well. Because I see her and I go, she's quite young and pretty and says these things and like puts the whole thing off balance. I was different. Yes. Yeah. I value that. I think, oh, yeah, you'd be stupid not to think that had something to do with it. were you were you not told like don't look so good yeah yeah not on television television loves looking good but in the clubs there were certainly bookers and other you know comedians mostly male i mean exclusively male who would be like oh you don't want to dress like that because i always dressed i thought i was dressing respectfully for the audience i thought they're paying to come to a comedy

night. And I think you should be the best dressed person there. And for me, I can't wear a tuxedo or, you know, I would just dress up. And I liked hair and makeup and glam. And I had those values. And then Bookers would be like, you don't want to dress like that because the men will be distracted by you and the women will hate you. I was like, what? And that was such a foreign, coming from Hooters, where we were very celebratory of each other and it wasn't catty or jealous. I was like, what do you mean women will hate me? Which never turned out to be true. even now, there will be women who are brought in kind of accidentally. It's like Trojan horse where they go, oh, I really like that top.

I think, like, what color lipstick did you have on on that show? I like that sparkly. And they're kind of brought into comedy because they think you're wearing something nice. Like, I don't know. I don't care who comes in and why. I think people are very complimentary of, like, glam. They like it. And the boys are doing it now too.

Like Joel Domit on your hit show. Yes. He looks good. Yes. And I just think it's so fascinating. Who is it that is having a go at women for wanting to look good? Because, you know, a bit like I was saying, half nun, half wild child, it's like it is possible to be half feminist, half trad wife in a kind of funny sort of way. Like, I want to, well, it's almost at odds with itself that statement.

But I know plenty of women who absolutely 100% agree with equal rights and equal gender, you know, close the gender gap and how important that is. But at the same time, enjoy dressing feminine, looking feminine, owning their feminin. which is sometimes seen as pandering to the opposite sex, but actually lots of women do it for themselves. I mean, you've talked about, like, wanting to take care of yourself. I'm assuming, like, why do you want to look nice? I think it's, I think that there are men and women who have internalized misogyny.

So many women have internalized misogyny. And I think they can be forgiven for that because we've all had to navigate the same world. and there are huge systems in place to deliver that messaging. Even if you still look at pop stars, they look like children. It's not a coincidence that both Sabrina Carpenter and Ariana Grande look like they're 11 years old and lingerie. Yeah, I hadn't looked about that. I mean, they're both very talented and I don't want to diminish.

Yeah, they're really talented, you know. But like, I do think Hollywood is gross now in many ways. I look back at some of the movies and the influence. that I had. And then it makes sense that we all buy into this beauty industry so much. And this toxicity propels, you know, somebody somewhere to get very rich and also to keep us slightly underfoot. I think it works for people. I think patriarchy works for men. They benefit from it, whether or not they're active participants. They benefit. So I think everybody subscribes to this system. And I don't blame any woman for whatever her level of participation is in it.

But I think it's a mistake to assume that when we dress well or we want to get Botox or filler or plastic surgery or breast implants or dye our hair or have like a unique authentic fashion presence, that that is anything to do with the male gaze. Yes. And I think that system, patriarchy, whoever is deploying it at that time, loves to think of everything in the male gaze. Like, well, a man won't marry you if you do, oh, well, you're trying too hard to bring that. Oh, well, you, I'm not, I'm not actually thinking about you or your feelings or your appraisal of what I'm doing at all. And men will always say, oh, you know, we don't, we don't like lip filler. We prefer, I'm not doing it for you. Yeah, don't care.

I don't care what you like. I don't care if you live or die. So, I, I'm, I'm great, great passion. A passionate advocate of beautiful lingerie. I never wear a neutral bar and a sensible pan ever. I would hate to show you my underwear ring. Well, but I, but you, like, this is, I think, where I'm at now. Like, you do whatever you want to do, but this makes me feel good about myself.

And what I love is saying, I love this about you and I love the fact that you do that. And I love the fact that you don't want to wear fancy pants underwear. I might want to. You might want to after you've had this baby. I do want to. Yeah, good. Well done. And I also want to go on a Zempek if that's what it takes next year.

And I want to have a facelift because people are doing that younger. And there's nothing I can do about my nose. A lot of people think I've had a nose job. I haven't. I wouldn't choose this nose. This bit is too long, but I don't think that I can have a lip lift just because my nose is so like Dr. Seuss. But I don't want to do that from that.

But again, no. Because I'm not a feminist. Yes. I just think it's fun. I think I have a healthy attitude toward all those things, which is why I'm happy to be joked about. Like, you know, oh, Captain Ryan's had all this plastic surgery. I actually haven't had any plastic surgery on my face.

I even haven't had Botoxin fillers for a long time because I've been so pregnant. But because of pregnancy, my face is like big and then small and then big and then small and then big and then small. So I will do something about it. And when I do, I'll tell everyone that I did it. Yes. Not because I'm proud of it or a show. but because I can exist in the middle and just be honest about like, yeah, I wanted to do that. And do I hate my face every day I walk past, you know, shop windows and think, oh, God, I'm a monster,

no. But I'm an entertainer and I think if people are going to come see me on tour, they deserve the best, most glamorous version of me because it's part of showbiz. And why wouldn't I give it to them? And also, the last thing I'll say about surgery, unless you have any follow-up question, is that my mom is 65. And I gifted her a facelift for her birthday last year, which is a risky gift if someone doesn't want it. But she does, she did want it. I know my mom well enough to know she'd want it. And she speaks very openly. Her attitude is the same as mine.

because I recognized that it's, first of all, it's harder, I think, for a woman born in 1960 who's like traditionally so beautiful to age because of the values that were instilled for that generation. But also, my mom knew that beauty is a depreciating asset. And she would say things. Like people go, oh, happy birthday. You're one year old. And my mom would go, well, I suppose it's better than the, the alternative. Like, she knows that it's better to be old than to die. But in a way, the joke is,

for that generation, not much better. Like, how dare you? How dare you age and become invisible? And I noticed how lonely it felt for my mother not to be missing out on that gaze and that constant, like, very toxic white van attention that she received all her life. But lonely, I think for certain women to look in the mirror and not recognize their best friend. And that is just yourself, your own countenance that you've gotten to know throughout all these years looking back at you. It changes so much. And I think that's why people have big life events like a loss or a divorce or something where they get a little bit older and they just, they're not trying to impress, you know, calling from accounts or anyone online.

It's just a return to something to go, oh yeah, there she is. And to see her own face in the mirror again. And my mom looks great and she loves it. So it's just fascinating, though, how much, how anti-any any kind of surgery society seems to be and how insistent they are on shaming people or, yeah, who have it. And it makes it very hard for other women to do that. Yeah. And it's sad because you've seen how it made your mom feel.

Yeah, she loved it. Yeah. And she would have been fine without it. Yes. But it was like a fun thing. And I think when you talk about having a facelift, for example, you remove the shame because what are people going to say about you? Yeah, I did. Yeah.

I mean, that is another thing I think about getting older. That it is easier to just go, yeah, I did. But equally, I really admire the women who don't. If you feel like your new face. But nobody should have to tell anybody anything. They shouldn't have to. But I think if you do take the step to have like a facelift, it depends on who you are. If you're me and I'm very open about everything, if I were to do that and then deny it,

I think that would not be authentic to me. And then also it might create a space where women who felt as though I was always honest with them were like, oh, well, how come my jawline isn't doing that after four kids? And maybe if I use that cream. Yes, exactly. Oh, there's someone in particular whines me up selling this neck cream. Yeah, right. Yeah, right, honey. Uh-uh.

Before and after. No. you know. You can have creams lovely. We need moisturized. We need SPF. Vitamin A is helpful. But to show me some of these wild transformations, I think can be honest.

One more big thing I really would like to talk to you about, which I am fascinated by parenting and how it affects our children. And I loved learning a bit about your parenting style and how. that is shaping your kid's future. So could you just tell us a little bit about that? Yes. So I really believe in the early foundations of laying down a regulated central nervous system. Yes.

And I think that... I'm good. And I think that we... So many adults of our generation are very sadly mentally ill and they have attachment issues. And I don't blame anyone. for that, it was a very different parenting style when we were all born. And a lot of us were left

to cry. And it's a necessity for some people. I always say the caveat is I think parents, but a mother specifically should prioritize her own mental health. We don't need anybody losing it. So if your child is in a safe place and they need to cry it out so that you don't walk it out into the street, then that's what you need to do. Fine. But if you can cope with it, I do believe in responding to small baby's needs immediately, carrying them as much as you can, having them with you as much as you can, co-sleeping with them,

potty training them really young because it gives them, like, agency and autonomy. But it makes people really angry, like any clip or any time that I speak about parenting, and I think it is an extension of women's just anxiety. And then projection of shaming each other for things. I'm really not trying to shame it on. I just want people to think outside the box and do things that work for their family.

One of the things I've loved listening to you talk about is the posse training. Yeah. I mean, that is amazing. It makes people so mad. Why? Why would it make someone mad? So I say that you should start potty training babies from almost birth. And when I say potty training, I think it gets lost in translation.

Yes. Go, what do you mean? And they get mad right away because they feel like, well, because, I've got a three-year-old in a nappy, you're saying that's my fault and I'm negligent and I don't love my child. That's not what I was saying. It's kind of correct. No.

Four. Look, I just think there's a miscommunication somewhere along the way is I think that well-meaning, very loving parents don't realize that when you put a nappy on a child and you can see that child going to the loo and the nappy, you know they're going and they use the nappy all the time to go to the loo. you are training them to use a nappy. And if you are the kind of parent who has a nappy as a fail safe, especially for a newborn, I mean, a newborn doesn't know they're alive. But you take the nappy off at regular intervals and you put them or you hold them on a potty.

You're training them to go in the potty. So whatever you do with your kids, whether you lavish them with attention or you ignore them, whether you party train them where you don't want whatever you do, you're training them just by your behavior, whatever you choose or lack of behavior. So all I do is I remove the nappies as often as I can from about three months. And I'm telling you, I thought my first daughter was a genius. She's my favorite. When she was fully out of nappies by like honestly 11 months, like before one. They've all been out of nappies fully by one. But I understand that there are limitations.

People have to go to work. Kids are in a daycare setting or child. I get that. But the reaction that I get is people going, well, you are privileged and you have chefs and nannies. Well, I don't. I mean, I do. I have a nanny and I have a cleaner that comes twice a week. But there's no chef.

Oh, that's Bobby. Yeah, okay. So I do have all that. But I potty trained Violet as a very financially insecure single mom. I was taking her to work with me a lot. I was looking at her a lot. And I noticed cues from about, like, as soon as they start solid food, you can see when a baby needs to do a poop. But by then, they have all these other skills.

They're very self-aware and they're stubborn and they can walk. And they have already been trained to go in a napi. Yes. But if you just interrupt that really young, they never think. That's like enough to. Yeah, they always, and it's just easy. They just want to be clean. So many other countries do it.

They did it for generations before we had nappies. It can be done. You don't have to do it. And for me, when I was very young and had violet, it was not very young, 24, 25. Still quite young, really, isn't it? Quite young. I just put myself in her shoes. I was like, I wouldn't want to be in a situation where a stranger was ever changing my nappy.

I wouldn't want to have a dirty nappy at all. So I just trained her. I didn't know about elimination communication, which is what it's called, and is practiced by so many people. I feel like a parenting book. I know, but like it just makes people so angry. But it would help so many people. Yeah. I mean.

That's all it is. Like, I don't think there's much more to say than that. So I don't think I could parlay it into chapters Because people do say Let's talk about that I bet you could For the right You're going to take your cash

You know you're right You know it needs to be a book It needs to be so many chapters And a signing fee Yeah So I want to talk TV with you Because obviously you came over here You were a comic

But like going into TV In comedy Again when you did it When you started Not that many women were on panels and things like that. What was that like, because things like, have I got news for you, to me,

would scare the bejesus out of me. So what was it like for you? It is an intimidating one because you have to know about the news and everything that's going on politically, and I definitely didn't. And to sit next to Paul Martin and Ian Hisslop and have them so clever

and all their writers are so clever. But I really enjoyed the challenge. And I think early days before I did have I got news for you, the first panel show that I did was eight out of time. Yeah, great. And I really was so lucky to exist at a time when, like, that was a huge show. And Sean Locke was on. And it was just like so funny, but so intimidating. The first day I looked around and I was like, I will never be as funny as these people.

It wasn't that they were men. But just these people, I just won't be as funny as them. It was Hannibal Burress, Sean Locke. Wow. Was it John Richardson, Stephen Mangan, and a boy from the voice who was adorable. They like to have a select to mix it up, but he was funny too. And Jimmy. And then I thought, well, I can run or I can do it my way.

And sometimes eight out of ten cats would have subjects that I wasn't familiar with. I think FIFA. Yes. Or like the Greek financial crisis was a topic at one point. And I just did it in my own way. I said, I think I said Greece and Carrie Katona have a lot in common. And they both get gas from Turkey. And they both, like, it was such a stupid joke.

But, like, I just found my little rhythm in any subject matter. And then people learned to accept me as, like, oh, she's going to say it in her own way. And it will be about celebrity culture somehow. And it'll be a bit vapid, but it'll be kind of knowing and kind of caustic. And that's, they didn't expect, like, a really cerebral political take. down from me. They were happy to have me talk about, you know, like Cheryl Cole. But I think that I think that's what's so clever about you that you, at each stage of your life, it's almost like every single job that you've done, every move that you've made, every man

that you've been with, it's like, who am I? You are constantly saying, be true to yourself. I think what we love about you is a real authenticity. It doesn't matter you might hate you somebody might go like, I'm parenting but they know it's true they know it's what you do

so you can't you can't go anywhere with the truth yeah except back to the truth like that's what they say you never have to remember what you say if you just are authentically yourself all the time

I think authenticity is really the only thing that works in comedy uniquely I think you can be well obviously an actor and be anyone, be really inauthentic because you're a chameleon. You can be a presenter or a model or like a pop star. But if you're a comedian, I think if people don't believe you, that's the difference between.

So there are lots of people who will come and see me on tour. And I feel so lucky and so surprised. Every time I tour, I'm like, oh, people are motivated to like get a babysitter, pay for parking, go to dinner, they'll come and see me. They care what I have to say. And I think that's the difference. If you are a good comedian and you can tell jokes, but you're just kind of doing an impression of a comedian, I see these people in the club sometimes. I'm like, well, they're really, really funny, but nobody cares.

Because it's not hitting. Because it's not real. Yeah. I can feel it. I want to go back to TV because you did this amazing sitcom. Did you write Duchess? I did write. Yes, yeah.

That it was really good, but it was one series. Yeah. Like, what happened? It's so, bring it back. There's space for it. Yeah. Or bring back a version of it. A version of it.

I wrote the Duchess when I was single and I loved being single. And I was confronting being on the wrong side of 35, like fertility-wise. And I thought, what will I do about growing my family? Because this is when women start to hear those voices from doctors or whomever about egg freezing or about, you know, some many now professional women at 35 have no children. Maybe they don't want children. Maybe they do. But they have to decide their biological legacy right then and there. So I thought, wouldn't it be funny to have, I was a big fan of Kenny Powers at the time.

It's a character from a show called Eastbound a Down. And I really recommend it. He's like angry all the time, but it's funny when he's angry. Yes. I thought this, I don't see a female character like that. He swears and he was like, angry. I thought it would be funny to have an unlike female lead. Like Tony Soprano wasn't a good guy, but he was lovable.

Everybody liked him. But I thought that was exactly what you gave us. I thought it was cool. It was brilliant. But I feel like you, everybody should go and watch it now. And it would be more relevant now. Well, actually, you were way ahead of your time. That's kind of you to say.

Yeah. I think people did really, the feedback I got, they didn't like how she was, she put people off. Isn't it? A villain. But I think to women. I think women really loved her. Oh, good. And also, pointedly, I wanted her to be a single mother who had money for no reason.

Because I see women portrayed. They have white wine and they're cross. crying and they live in squalor and they're like, I'm a single mom. And I wanted this woman to just have money. Why? Why does she have money? What does she do? Pottery. People were so angry about that. Really well-meaning men would reach out and be like, but why does she have a flat? And I'd be like, why? You don't need to know why. Why does Ricky Jervais character in afterlife? He works for a small print magazine live in a five million pound house in Hampstead. And his cheeky response to that is, oh, well, it was his wife's house.

Ricky, but you didn't have to explain that at all in the series. We just let these men on television in films and rom-coms. Like even when the Duchess character, she got a boyfriend who was a dentist. Yes. They are not remunerated fairly in this country. She met a dentist. When they went house shopping, locations found us a house. I was like, how come he's allowed this house?

This dentist, when we went shopping for a house, it was like a four million pound house in Kensal Rise. I was like, but people got cross that a single mother had designer clothes. God, it's really interesting, isn't it? Loads of people had asked me that. Why? Why does she have money, though? And I went so that you ask me that question, like just so that you're angry about it. Yes.

Mm-hmm. God, I think that's fascinating. It was so weird. They got so weird about it. Nice man. How dear she. Fascinating. Why does she have money?

She's a pottery artist and a single mom. She's great to piss you off. Yeah, exactly. Maybe she made good investments. She was dealing the guy and the boy beard. I mean, let's just talk about your current project because the real housewives, mega. Speaking of what? Mega, mega.

Yeah. And you are the perfect person to do this. It's like a reunion, right, where they're all kind of coming together to chat about what's going on. One's already gone out. We've got the next one next week. Yes. So what's that been like and what are they like? What's your experience of them?

What have you learned insights? Well, for a start, we were not anticipating two parts. It was meant to be a one-part reunion and it too. It just was very good. Yeah. These are interesting women to me because the Real Housewives franchise is about a group of friends who ultimately have a lot of ups and downs on a lot of drama and explosive moments and they live this lavish lifestyle that so many of us are not used to seeing.

You could be very wealthy and still not. be used to the level of like castles and helicopters and jewels that you see on the London Real Housewives. I mean, it's a different echelon. But at the end of the day, they have to come back together as friends. And that's what the reunion is about, to settle scores, to like show all the receipts, to work through all this trauma and leave as a group of girlfriends so that we can move on to next series. And they watch the episodes along with the rest of us.

So they didn't get advanced screening. So everything's fresh to them. They would watch it as it came out week by week on Hey You. And so there's a lot still brewing with them that they really wanted to get out. And I love it because Real Housewives of London passes the bed shell test. They're not talking about men, like hardly ever. This is women, most of whom are over 40, over 50. Where do we see a cast of all women of that age group on like primetime television,

not talking about their relationships with men. They talk about all kinds of, all kinds of very interesting things, but not so much men. And they're so relatable in the sense that I found they've got different traumas. They've all got their own different attachment issues. They've all suffered. They've all struggled. Many of them live in a perceived shadow of perhaps their partners' wealth or achievements. and that's difficult to navigate.

Like, I just, I really loved digging into, like, what was going on with these housewives. But on the surface, it's like fighting and fun as well. They do fight. They can fight. I love your face. Like, I mean, I was going to ask you, actually, as a final question about what you would like your legacy to be.

So, I mean, you're not going anywhere. for decades, obviously. But in the future, have you ever thought, or how would you like people to remember you? Like, who do you want to be? Because you're somebody who assesses yourself. So often, like, where are you heading? Well, I think we're so lucky to have these moments of our lives

captured forever on film or a radio or podcasts or because our descendants will be able to find a log of our lives for the first time ever. Women would lose their names. Women would lose their history. When I met Bobby Ann, who do you think you are? It's very difficult to trace the maternal lineage at all because these women just fade into the background until us. And especially if you're on television or doing something like that. So I like to think that I'll be remembered as a witch.

Like a real problematic, badass. I hope to get poorly behaved, like in my older years, get just worse and worse. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think you as well, Davina, are a real, like, turning point. And there's an indigenous, what's the word, not psychology. There's an indigenous, you can tell I'm pregnant sometimes when I can't find words. A philosophy. Philosophy.

There's an indigenous philosophy. talks about ancestral pain, ancestral trauma. And it says that everything that you do affects seven generations behind you as well as seven generations ahead of you. And I love that because I think you and I are real like path movers, like changers of like whatever happened before. Women of this age now have this incredible opportunity to just shift it any way we want. And I'm the first women in my family who purchased a house without a man. and I'm very problematic and the women before me were too

but they didn't get credit for it and we recently lost Diane Keaton oh and I see videos of her just like little things that she did that weren't problematic even the pantsuits are provocative were so good a hat a pin being a peacock

see me so provocative and her sitting on the edge of a Ralph Lauren runway is the clip I saw on my way here and she's greeting all the models as though she knows them personally and she's going, well done. And that's what I do. I was in Vegas.