Begin Again with Davina McCall - Katie Piper: From Surviving an Acid Attack to Finding Faith & Love

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

In this powerful episode of Begin Again, Katie Piper opens up about her remarkable journey following the horrific acid attack in 2008. She reflects on her path to survival, the deep emotional and physical challenges she faced, and the profound transformation that followed. From struggling with agoraphobia and navigating countless surgeries to discovering her faith, Katie shares how she rebuilt her life. Alongside this, she reveals the moments of humour and strength that helped her endure. Katie also discusses how she found faith in her 20s, a journey that’s shaped her perspective on life and healing. She opens up about finding love, building a deep connection with her husband, and the joy of navigating motherhood—experiences that have been pivotal in her recovery. With raw honesty, she speaks about the loneliness of recovery and how she learned to embrace her new identity. This conversation is a heartfelt exploration of resilience, the power of faith and love, and the ongoing process of healing as Katie navigates life after trauma. Her story is one of profound strength, transformation, and the importance of embracing the complexities of life’s challenges. Katie’s Book ‘Still Beautiful’ - https://www.dk.com/uk/book/9780241722596-still-beautiful/ Upcoming Events for Katie - https://www.katiepiper.co.uk/book-tour www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod (00:00:00) Coming up… (00:01:02) Davina's Introduction (00:02:18) Meeting Katie Piper (00:05:21) Katie on Finding Her Faith (00:10:51) Katie's Acid Attack Story (00:18:03) Who Was Katie Before the Attack? (00:24:37) Immediate Aftermath & Hospital Life (00:30:25) The Impact of Loneliness After Trauma (00:31:26) Identity & Physical Appearance Post-Attack (00:36:33) Life in Rehab (00:38:40) Mental Health Impact After Being Attacked (00:43:16) Katie Isolating Herself After the Attack (00:49:48) Katie’s Mum's Diary Entries: A Personal Look (00:58:09) Overcoming Mental Health Struggles (01:02:50) Drawing Confidence from Suffering (01:05:03) Dealing with Misogyny & Inspiration from Deborah James (01:09:34) Finding Comfort in Aging (01:13:27) Navigating Dating (01:18:49) Meeting Her Partner & Finding Romance (01:28:07) Pregnancy & Parenting After Trauma (01:33:38) Letter from Katie’s Mum (01:37:01) Parenting Through Trauma & Healing (01:41:19) Katie’s Foundation: Giving Back & Raising Awareness Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Taos, you deserve more confidence. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUVW, German-engineered for all. So much time, money and expertise was spent on saving my life. How dare I not live it? You are the ultimate person to have on this podcast. I was... And then a few days later, I had acid thrown into my face. I went to hospital and it was like all those simple things in life you take for granted was so hard. People would follow me around pointing at me before I was like contagious or had some kind of disease.

So I found Christianity in my 20s. If you find something bigger than you, it's very comforting. but I know other people who've been through terrible experiences who just can't get past it. But for you... Love came out of something really difficult. How did you get back onto the dating scene? I realise it's a sort of like connection and an energy. Yes, looks are so unimportant.

We're even lying to young people that 20s are your heyday. In your 40s, most people are the most secure, most wise, most confident. Katie, forget everything else. This is why I love you. Thank God for that chapter. Here's the new chapter. Here's the new me. You guys are in for such a treat. Katie Piper, I've always known her and respected her.

But recently I got to visit her on her TV show that she does on a Sunday morning. And I looked at her and I was like, oh, wow, you're actually a brilliant, brilliant broadcaster. And then I thought, wow, what a begin again. Your life and where you've come from, I would love to talk to her. I found out she was writing a book and I thought, oh I must get that book. So I got this. You have to. But she is so, she's a brilliant communicator. After everything that she's been through, she's so level-headed and she is so wise. So listen up and enjoy. Oh and by the way, we are really nearly 100,000 subscribers.

and if you've never done it before and you think I'm all right, please please please just click and subscribe and like while you're at it. I mean, it's literally like that and then that. So if you could do that, that would be great. I've known you for a long time. Yeah. And we've seen each other on tell you and everything. And obviously now I've just been to your new show that's out every Sunday

on TV for like forever. That's how it feels, doesn't it? Me and Michael, they're forever. I'm actually at home in bed. Michael, my partner, worked with you on that show, and I came down to visit you. And I thought I knew Katie Piper. You know, I thought I knew who you were

from seeing you on loose women and things. Yeah. But I saw you interviewing people, champions, in their local community. And I thought, oh, wow, you are really good. at interviewing people and empathetic and sensitive and you're a very good listener. And then I thought, well, that must be because you've, everything you've been through in your life has made you who you are today.

And I started really kind of thinking about who you were, and me and Michael discussed you a lot. Okay. And then I thought about everything that you've been through and you are the ultimate person to have on this podcast. Oh, can we feel like, I feel privileged to be here and it means a lot coming from you because I grew up with you, you know, so it's quite surreal in that way.

It's an honour for me to have you here, but it's been supersized by reading your book. I'm going to hold this up, Kishie. Still beautiful. Out now. This blew my mind. Because I think I didn't know you at all. and the depth to you and the way that you think

and the way that you can express yourself and the way that you've used single pages you know a moment to pause here it says which part of your story do you find it difficult to make peace with how could you rewrite the ending so it's something you're proud of there are so many nuggets golden nuggets in this book but from a life that has been so crazy and difficult,

but you are not a victim. I love this. Yeah. It's weird, isn't it? Because to some I'm young and to others I'm old, but what I've lived is, like you say, a bit of a crazy life because I suppose what has happened to me won't happen in some people's lifetime.

And in others, it may, but it will be two friends like this in their 80s, reflecting on it. You know, at 41, it's a lot to have gone through, not necessarily negative, but it's just unusual for somebody in their 40s to have contended with those emotional and physical things. But it's my life that I was given and because I have a faith, I know it was meant for me. Can you tell me how you came to find your faith? Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, if we were having this chat 10, 15 years ago, I would have been like really reserved

and it would have held this quite close to my chest because, you know, I was raised, my parents were fairly sort of conservative in that, you know, I was born in the 80s, grew up in the 90s, you didn't talk about politics, you didn't talk about religion, unless someone really offered it up, you definitely didn't ask them. So much so, I remember when my mum and dad would go and vote and do their ballot in the local church at the end of our road,

They wouldn't tell each other who they were voting for, like political parties. Whereas if now people have it in their bios on Instagram, they main grid it, they story all about it. So I found Christianity in my 20s, which is quite late. I didn't grow up in a religious household. And I really didn't talk about it because that was the early 2000s. And, you know, I'm the founder of a charity. And when you are running a not-for-profit, you don't want to politically align or religiously align because you're a applying for grants, you're applying for trusts. And it's important to be neutral because

we fund treatment, right? So everyone that approaches us, regardless of their beliefs and backgrounds, we'll get funding. So I've never really talked about it. And then here comes Instagram, here comes TikTok, and here comes Gen Z that are so proud of their political alignment, so proud of their religion, which in one way is brilliant, which then is in another way is like we've never been in such a divisive time like culturally and politically. And it's like if I say one thing about politics or religion on Twitter, I sit in the left forever or I sit in the right forever. And in some ways that makes me sad because it's like you can have different views that fall on both sides and you can have friends that have completely opposing opinions and sides and they can

still be your best mate. And that's how we grew up. But it's very, very different now. So I was very kind of quiet and considered about talking about being a Christian. And also like I'm what I would call a bad Christian. I don't go to church. I use an app to pray. I use an app to worship. I'm not christened. My kids aren't christened because it's up to them. And I don't live by the Ten Commandments. So I'm my kind of Christian. I would like to also say, I think in life, in any kind of spirituality, There's no such thing as a bad version of no one is bad. I would like to say whatever you follow, you have to make something work for you.

Faith. Yeah. I love that word faith. Yeah. I have faith. Yeah. It's very broad. It's very broad.

Yeah. But I know if I put that online, people would be like, oh, are you homophobic then? And it's like, absolutely not. But I can understand how bits get pulled and misinterpreted. It's a shame that, isn't it? It is. but I think like anything in life, if you're curious and want to explore it,

you should pass no judgment and you should read into it and you should live it. Yeah. I would like to talk to you a bit about how you came to the attention of the public and how you became the Katie Piper that we now all know and love. And it's actually been via a very painful pathway. Did you have faith then already? was always faced something that happened after. No, it happened during when I was an inpatient and I had a nurse that kind of mentored me.

She was Jehovah's Witness actually, not Christian, but she kind of mentored me and that's how I found it. And I think it's like you search for something bigger than you. And that's kind of like a quest for a meaning. Because if we always think we're the biggest thing, like it's kind of like a level of narcissism, right? If you find something bigger than you, it's very comforting. And it's also someone you can. ask for help. If it's just you, then... Yeah, I don't want it to... Help me. Help.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it is comforting and reassuring for sure. Yeah. Because I'm kind of a bit of a solo... I fly solo in a sense, right? Don't we all? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know if I'm just a weirdo. I don't know. But I am like... I can I just say one thing? Katie Piper. I've read your book. I know you a little bit. I've seen your work. Love what you. do you're not a weirdo. But everyone's somebody's weirdo, aren't they? Well, I would say, I would say actually, in all honesty, you make the most sense

almost of anybody I've ever spoken to. Like, everything you say makes complete and utter sense to me. But I think this idea of we are all alone in the world. Die alone, leave alone. Exactly. Like born alone, die alone. Yeah, yeah. And I'm okay with, I kind of like that because I guess now my level of

self-esteem is that I can rely on me and I trust me. So it's comforting. But it all started really in 2008. That's right. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit? Yeah. What happened to you then? It's so unique because it's so unique to my colleagues because the people I work with now, they could be other TV presenters, actresses, models, singers, dancers, men and women in production who've all gone to stage school, university, maybe they've had parents in the industry and now they're here in the industry with really tangible, recognised achievements or talents.

But the way that I came known to the public was as a new story. You know, I was attacked in 2008. I was raped, I was beaten, I was held, and then a few days later I had sulfuric acid thrown into my face. and it was really as the victim of that attack, the public knew my name. And then, and funny actually, you know, you say 2008, that's when that happened.

But when you are the victim of a sexual crime, you have the right to be anonymous. And I've reserved that right for a year, which some people don't realize. And the reason was I was in quite a lengthy trial that went on for over a year. And I didn't want to jeopardize any evidence or any outcome. So I was Girl A in the media at first. And because I wasn't famous, Girl A was like a few lines in a paper. You probably would have missed it. And then when I revealed my identity, I'd also been filming a documentary,

not as a presenter, but I was the subject. You know, I was the contributor. And it was an observational documentary. And it was a female crew. It was one director, a camera woman, and then one sound woman. So just two of them. And I had agrophobia. I didn't leave the house.

So they would just come to my home and film with me every day. And as you know... How did that even happen? Did a production company come and ask you after the... No. It was... The only people I really had kind of communication with were legal teams, the Mets and medical teams,

mum and dad. And every time I'd meet different people in those circles, Because you know what, sadly, acid attacks are something now I think we all are familiar with. And we've probably heard of other survivors of acid attacks. But back then, you were talking like 17 years ago, I don't think that's something we'd heard of happening on the street in the UK. So when people would meet me, they'd always, you know, they were there to treat me or represent me legally. They'd always think it had been a car accident or a house fire. and I'd have to brief them on the story

for the context of what they were doing and they'd be like, sorry, what? You know, it was always complete disbelief, compassion, kindness, empathy. And they were like, it's like a movie, but not in a good way. And people were like, this story needs to be told on your own terms.

So I think at first people were talking about you should write the story. And my own therapist said you should write kind of privately because there's all these things that you need to unburden from your subconscious that you don't want to frighten family members with. So I did write, I wrote for a long time. Not very well. I don't have any higher education.

I stopped at GCSE and I didn't even do great at that. And then as I met people and as I wrote, people started talking to me about talking about it on camera, filming it. And to be honest, that filled me of dread at first because I was a very different person to who sat here today. And I just started to self-shoot. And this was before camera phones. I had a Nokia back then.

I don't even think the Blackfrey had had its time. Instagram didn't exist. It was MySpace. And I started to self-shoot on like an Argos handy cam. You didn't remember that pull-out arm with a little screen. And I just started to self-shoot more. It was really strange. like my sort of naked body.

It was really personal. And my burns are like down my front because obviously it was thrown at me. So I started to shoot my body in a sort of subjective way. Like my body was very purple and very like shiny. And I just started shooting the changes of my body.

And then I would like play it back and only watch it on the small screen. And then reshoot and reshoot. And then mum, my mum's a retired school teacher mom would start helping we document it on like Microsoft and we'd make little brochures for nobody like we document it for us

and just see it and then I met somebody through my surgeon a, it's like a BBC freelance journalist a man and he was such a great man he was like this is more than a news piece this is a program and I'm not interested in monetising this or taking anything from you

here's my black book, go and explore it, and stay in touch. And he didn't ask for anything from me. He never has since. He's stayed in touch, you know. And then it went to like Trevor MacDonald tonight. It went to Channel 4. And then I chose to go with cutting edge in Channel 4. Can I ask you about a little bit about who you were before?

Who were you in your very early 20s? And what were you like and what was happening in your life? Yeah. It's hindsight. isn't it, when we think about who we were. Well, I was kind of a tomboy in some ways. It was very different because when we look at young people now, they're like brilliant at makeup.

They've got all these YouTube tutorials. They look fab, right? And when we were like the kind of shave your eyebrows of a bit razor crew, pierced your own ears with their nappy pin and an ice cube, if you were raving and partying, you had one dress, because we didn't document partying.

So no one knew you only had a one dress. And we were fine with that, you know. We used the night bus. We walked home. It was a great time, actually, you know. And I think I was kind of bold and resilient and ambitious and chaotic and crazy and selfish. I was 20 and I lived my life for me. And I was a thrill seeker.

Yeah, I seeked excitement, not routine. What kind of thrill? I came from a small town. I came from a small town outside, two hours outside of London. It didn't have a lot going on, no big industries, kind of rural compared to the city. And I was excited by what else is there out there? What is there for me? Because I want to find it, you know.

I was optimistic. and kind of can do, but naive and young. Were you naive because you lived in the country, do you think? It's like I grew up in the country, and when I moved to London, I was 13, I was just, I knew nothing. I was so country girl. You know, like you said, there's just nowhere to access all of this stuff nowadays. You know what it's like living in a city because you can see it all.

Yeah. Yeah, I was from a nice family. So I was really trusting. I was like, people are good, people are lovely. And I was 20. And was I a young 20? I don't know, what does that mean? I'd been working since like 15, and I loved working.

And I'd moved out of home at 17 and paid rent, paid bills. But I romanticised relationships and life. And I was very trusting. and I loved being in love and I loved people socialising, connecting, knowing people meeting them, partying. You know, I was a lover of life, but maybe sometimes to my detriment.

In what way? I just think I was, I don't want to say I was excessive because I sit here now and I'm a mum and I'm the breadwinner and my life is serious and responsible. So when I let it back on her, I'm like, you go girl get it like I'm so glad totally yeah live your life I don't you know I see some people that that

you know it's not a criticism but a lot of that part of their life was spent in education and being responsible and because of what happened to me I'm like thank god I went and got it because I don't I don't long for it because I really I really exhausted it and you were I mean you you talk about being ambitious I always think it's quite interesting for women to voice that. I've always been ambitious. I unashamedly so. I wanted to do well. And it's very interesting, I think, sometimes that it's seen as a bit of a dirty word when connected to women. Yeah. I think it's women like you talking about it that's paved the way for people like me

because I do think previously it's been seen as like greedy and is it like capitalist and who are you to want that and you're a mum, stay there? you know so I think the more when they like you have those conversations people like me are like yeah me too I guess it's okay then yeah yeah I mean I I felt like um you were really getting somewhere in a place where if you if you've got no nepotism and there's nobody giving you leg up it's a very difficult area to get into but you just signed to an agency and you know how much I love talking to you about that because obviously I worked at models one for all of those years so that was amazing Yeah.

And you were doing bits of telly. Yeah, I mean, look, it's funny. When I see my story first reported in 2008 in like red top tabloid, it's like former model, former TV presenter. I'm five foot four. So it wasn't Claudia Schiffer. And in terms of TV presenter, you know, Holly Willoughby wasn't feeling threatened by my career at that stage. So, you know, I was on, do you know what I was doing?

I was living in North London in a rented bedroom with five friends who were all going to auditions, dancers, singers, actresses. And we were making like 800 quid a month, which was loads to us because our room rent was 200. And then we were raving, barely eating,

and wearing one dress to every party. So it was fine. And I would do random stuff. Like, you know, I'd be working on the jewellery channel. These were the days of like no social media. So it was all like shopping channels, satellite tele. the casino channel, the DIY channel, selling solar paneled lights.

I remember, like, I was living in Golders Green, and I had an interview for a shopping channel based in Manchester. This is like, this sounds nuts, but I feel like you'll get it. I drove up, I had a fiesta 1.1. I drove up to Manchester for the audition, and I slept in my car because I couldn't afford to sleep in the Premier Inn. I slept in my car, and then I went into the Premier Inn just to wash my face and do all my hair in like the toilet.

And it was the day of the tom-tom sat-nav that you stuck on the windscreen. Yeah? And it left the circle on the windscreen. So I'd put my sat-nav in the glove box. And when I came back out after I'd freshened up, so I wanted to smash the passenger window and stolen the tom-tom because I'd left the sticky mark on the thing.

So instead of like ringing the police or going to Halford's and getting some tape to board up the window, I drove up the motorway to the audition with all the air and all the glass because I was like, I've come here for this audition and I got the job. But Katie, like, this is, forget everything else. This is why I love you.

This is where I think. It's a bit unhinged. No, it's not. It's how much do you want the job? Yeah. Like how much you want? This is something I feel is such a great lesson for anybody watching or any parent to say,

this is normal. Do the really difficult thing. And I feel like before anything terrible happened to you, you were the person, you were resilient. Yeah, I think, yeah, I know what you mean. Do you know what I mean?

Because whatever level you're at, whether you're aspiring or you're established, it's full of rejection. All the time. And you don't understand that until you're in it. And actually, rejection is no bad thing. It makes you really robust. It's a blessing.

Yeah, it is. You know, the more you get rejected, I used to say that a no is a yes that hasn't happened yet unless it is in the bedroom. Yeah. And then a no is a no. A no is a no. Yeah.

But like, if you're like, no, you're not right for this job, you just think, oh. We'll see. You don't know me yet. Like, you don't really mean that. I'll come back next week and I'll annoy you again. Yeah. Because...

And I feel that in you. Yeah. A tenacity. And do you know how that has served me so well? It's not through work. It was when I tried to date again, basically disfigured, it was littered with rejection.

And I was like, fine, because we're all rejected for all different reasons. And they can be. surface reasons. Can I ask you something very quickly before we deep move into this? I want to ask you how soon... So, I mean, you had literally hundreds of operations post the acid attack. Yeah.

How long were you in hospital? How long did you have to recover for? Give me a little bit of a setup before you were ready to look at being with someone again. So mum and dad moved in to Chelsea and Westminster NHS hospital and they slept Moved in? Yeah I mean they slept on those plastic chairs There's this thing called the patient's hotel for like critical patients And your mum and dad can go and live in the patient's hotel

So they can come down to ICU Because obviously for me at the beginning It wasn't about reconstruction it was about survival Yeah You know I had all my police interviews filmed so that if I did didn't, they could still go to trial. And actually, like, we have such, the police have

such a bad rap right now. And so do men in general. These were all men and they were like, we're going to get you the justice you deserve. And if you're not here and you don't survive, we will take these tapes and you will stand trial on these videos

and we will get you that justice. So, so that was three months solid, that was. I know, it's, it's, it's, It's sort of like great and awful, isn't it? Yeah. But great men. Yes, but it's really...

Thank you. Thank you. That's hard to have been through what you went through and see that. I'm grateful though. Yeah, I can see that. And that was a proper three months solid just living there. Three months. Yeah.

How many operations did you have during that time? I mean, it depends what you think. an operation is in terms of like is it sedation is it general it just endless procedures yeah because it's it's not everything you can see in terms of like so if you have a facial burn it's so functional because of like respiratory gastro eyes ears and then i have body burns and then i have internal with esophagus the stomach you know it's just how did how did you get the internal burns because it's it was thrown at you but i yeah how did that happen so you can have it through um just splashes because crevocy, you know, sulfuric acid in, in that volume and that strength.

Just the fumes can burn your esophagus and stomach. It could be droplets, but it can also be emergency incubation. So you think you don't, you arrive to hospital as a blue light, right? And you're incubated, you know, you're on opioids in the ambulance being stripped, being whatever. And then you're incubate, like these people are amazing. I mean, you know, these people are amazing. When they incubate you, they might split the esophagus because it's just keeping you breathing. Alive.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I was in a coma. So I was incubated for a long time. So that can damage the esophagus. So I don't really know what to attribute it to, but it kept me alive. So your esophagus was damaged. Yeah, in three places.

Yeah. Yeah. And that meant you had to be tube fed. Tubeford, which is such a funny thing because 90s teenager grew up like, you know, slim fast, watching your parents, do you keep rape vine and all this stuff? And you're like, if only I could be thinner, fuck now I can't swallow. You know, it's like ironic. Did you have those thoughts of, gosh, here I am and I've taken for granted all of this time?

Or was it just, you're just surviving at this point? Yeah, I think those thoughts would come like later when you could reflect. But I think that there's so much, so many drugs, so much trauma. You don't even, you actually don't know what's happened. Really? Yeah, it's too great. You weren't thinking, am I going to make it or not? Because you weren't even sure what was going on.

Yeah, I think there's so many opioids and so much ketamine. Sounds like a great party. But you don't know where you are. You think, like, for me, my hallucinations were that I was on a film set. So it's so far from your lived reality. Right. And they want, I mean, good. Yeah, maybe.

In a way. Maybe, yeah. But the answer is I was in hospital for all of my 20s. Like, when you get discharged, you're given a leave. So they're like, we're going to allow you to go home but come back four days a week. And then you become an inpatient for surgeries, recovery. Then you get infected. Then you get hospital.

So it's just like people are getting mortgages, getting pregnant. The date it. They're going on Tinder. And you're like learning to swallow. and it's just like it's such a weird like my twenties were just like just very different very different one of the things that touched me so much when I was reading your book that I hadn't really thought about in in terms of when this happened to you and what you might have gone through was the loneliness yeah and how isolating it is can you talk to you. Can you talk

me a bit through those feelings. Yeah, it was shit. Yeah. I mean, it was like people didn't turn their back on me, but my circle kind of shrunk because I had a lot of party friends, like acquaintances, party friends, and that was what we had in common. And also in people's defence, you know,

because social wasn't around, no one knew where I'd gone. No one knew what had happened, right? I just wasn't there. Like my flatmates knew what had happened And they stuck by me and they visited me But they couldn't visit at first No one was allowed in

I had like police guards on the door I was in a coma You know It wasn't it's not like visiting someone after a hip replacement You know And people don't know what to say And the loneliness like you know I think we understand loneliness better now

It's not about not having physical bodies around you It's about not relating to something And this wasn't about a bad thing but like mum was my best friend you know and I related more to older people um and life was just full of appointments whether they were legal medical whatever you know and I didn't have capacity for anything else do you think you related to older people because you'd had to grow up at like such breakneck speed yeah when you're young like the currency is like beauty youth and you can like flip through. I mean, look, I had a pretty privilege, right? I was like

white, blonde, fun and you can sort of flip through life as you want with that privilege. And then it's like what women usually experience is gradually aging out of the male gaze, right? People don't give you the seat on the tube. You can't apologize and get the parking ticket written off. I was removed from the male gaze in like 30 seconds, age 24. It's so unusual. And then my body was disabled. So it's like all those things a woman would feel at 82. I felt at 24.

And so many, after my doc went out, so many trans men and trans women wrote to me because it was like you're in a body that doesn't represent how you feel on the inside and I you know this is before the trans movement that has become

yeah and I I'd never really thought much about trans back then and I read the letters and I was like hmm they're right they're really really right it's like presenting to somebody

and they see this and I'm like no I'm this and I there was like a sad time in the beginning where I went to France to stay in this medical facility. And this is so sad. I used to carry a picture of my old self. And I used to show it to people that were treating me. And I used to be like, oh, I'm this age and this is who I am.

Because also I was age less, not like young or old. Like it's hard to age a burn survivor. And I was bald and like, I didn't have my nails. And I used to like, that was my ref point. Wow, that's really amazing. that you want to show someone a picture. That's so interesting because this is, this is me. What you're seeing here, the idea even that nails or, I mean, hands are so indicative of someone's age, right?

Yeah. Hands, eyes, hair. And you had none of that. Nothing to tell people who you were. Because how you look and how you dress and how you walk and how you present yourself. Tells people about who you are before you've said one single word. Yeah. It's not vanity.

Yeah. It's identity. Yes. It's necessity. And that picture was, it was like frustration and desperation. Because when I wrote the book, you know, like when you write a book on aging, write a book on beauty. I was like, I'm not writing a book that tells people to buy a bath bomb and have a bubble bath. And I'm not writing a book that tells people to buy a bath bomb and have a bubble bath.

And I'm not writing a book that tells people. you're beautiful in the inside that's all that matters that's not true and if we tell young women that that's what people will judge you on that's a lie and we do judge people and how they look we do make those first few seconds that assumption and I suppose I was like shy and quiet but screaming inside like here she is she's not here anymore but here she is it's embarrassing now to say it it's weird because it's weird to think of me carrying this picture Why is that embarrassing? Because I just think it was the only way I could communicate

because the way everyone else communicates is with their face and their presentation and mine was in a mask and it had been taken away. Yes. And I could only communicate like that. I feel like that's not embarrassing. That's so heartfelt. It's like a screen.

I can hear it. You know what I mean? I don't think that's embarrassing. That is a desperate. way of communicating. Yeah. Like I really want you to know who I am. It was important to me.

Yes. Yeah. So that's not embarrassing. That's a beautiful thing. Just like culturally, to some people, it's really important that you know where they're from. Yes. Right.

It was like my roots. Yeah. I don't think that's embarrassing at all. I really 100,000% understand you. that was this the place in France where your mum went a couple of times with you and then she had to let you go alone? She came on like a recie

and so did my NHS surgeon bless him he like obviously NHS surgeons have no time so on like bank holidays he came out to do a recie to hand over notes to the staff mum came like the first time and then I went on my own ideally I would have been the longer

tell me what it was what does it do for you it's a rehab centre so like when we think of rehab we think of say like the priory drugs and alcohol this is like burn rehab scar management so it's all about physical treatment so it's physiotherapy occupational therapy and if you understand the functionality of being burned you have a graft and the grafted skin shrinks and shrinks

So if my burn is here, it shrinks so much, my arm is fused to my body. You know, if my face shrinks, my mouth is open, I can't eat. My eyes are pulled down. Oh, it's like, my nose closes like a wound. I can't breathe. So all the rehab is to make the skin pliable, malleable, and stretch it and get extra movement, extra inches. So you are functional. It's all functional rehab.

And then the French patients would also have psychological. You didn't. That was that E and GCSC French. So I had an NHS therapist. Oh, so they're all French speaking. Sorry, that's absolutely ridiculous of me. I hadn't even factored that in. You went on your own to an entirely French speaking.

Yeah. It was very rural because, you know, obviously it wasn't like tourist France. You know, it was like rural out in like, you'd fly to Montpellier. Obviously, I had no money back then. So then you'd get like a coach for like three hours from Montpellier to this place called La Malulaban, which is like rural in the hills. Everyone's French. So like it was like that was lonely.

It was a privilege, but it was lonely because at the weekends, family would visit the French people or they'd go home. Did anybody sort of adopt you at all? A little. bit. People would, the trouble is people had had life-changing accident. Of course. Yeah. And they're all dealing with their own shit. Yeah. And it's like they had like accessibility problems. They would go home at the weekends. I was really the only domestic violence victim. It was more like car crashes, that kind of thing. And it had a Liddle. So that's

what I would do at the weekend. I would walk around Liddle. God bless Little. Look, God bless Liddle. So I would walk around Liddle. But my rehab was interrupted because obviously with my trial that I didn't take my attackers to trial, the CPS take them and I'm a witness. So I was called back by the crown to the trial. And then I had gastro-N-H-S surgery that I had to come back for those dates for stomach surgery. So my rehab was always interrupted with either gastro-surgery or being called to the stand. So you didn't get to stay there for as long as you probably would have liked? Well, I could have benefited more. But you know what? Some people don't get any of that. So it was fantastic.

It was a part of my recovery and I'm super grateful for it. It's funny, isn't it, when there's one person or one therapist or one o-t who says something and you go, ting? Oh, I have somebody. Yeah, I read straight away when you say that. I'm like, yeah, Marie. Marie. I love it. That's so great.

Marie wore like really dark, like red wine lip, like a French woman would. Right. and she was the best English speaker and she would take pictures of me like animated profile with her digital camera and she would print them for me to send to mum and dad to show, because animation is really important to show like stretch and reach.

So my goal when I was there was like, I really want to be able to bite an apple and I couldn't get enough reach to like, how do you mean reach? Because I couldn't vertically open my mouth. Yeah, because my scars had binded. And it was like affecting speech and it was affecting bite. So I was like, I really want to get bite for the circumference of an apple.

So like Marie would measure me with like this thing called a therabyte. So you put the ferabyte in the mouth and you wind it open. And then you measure the reach every week. So we would do that together. And she would talk to me in English about my story. They even nicknamed me because I would show them the picture. The picture I used to show them was like bright pink lipstick and like big curly hair extensions. And they called me burnt barbie.

which sounds so crude. But isn't it funny? These things... It was a pet name. Yeah, but it's... It's so weird in the darkest of times. Yeah. Sometimes you can find something to laugh about.

Yeah. And it's such a relief. And it's such a different culture. Like, we would have meals a bit like being at school. We'd have like a communal dining room. And it's obviously like a medical centre. But they would serve like wine with the meal. French.

French, right? And then a lot of the patients were older generations. because obviously that's when people decline and have medical problems. And they would all nickname me Roast Beef and have a go at me about the French Revolution. I just want to let you know that Rochebeef is like calling a French person a frog. Yeah, yeah. So we all get called Rozebif. Yeah.

Yeah. It's hilarious, isn't it? Yeah. So funny. And it was nice to have a laugh. Yeah. Like it was a dark time. I wanted to have a laugh, you know.

I mean, what's interesting now is that we're talking about the physical aspects of trying to come to terms with scars and how to keep your face malleable and all the surgeries. And for me, I think the idea that you were, you were raped and then a few days later, somebody threw acid at you, these are two enormous life experiences that on that own would take an enormous amount to mentally process to integrate into your life where you can make it part of you. It's never going to go anywhere. It's going to be part of your life forever, but you can somehow live with it in your daily life. When I read your book, I was struggling to understand how you process those two things mentally. I mean, you're talking about France

and dealing with all of that physically and the others get sort of psychiatric help or they get speak to a counsellor, but you didn't. How on earth do you start to integrate this experience? I had good access to a therapist in the NHS. You know, when I was in the UK in Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, I had a brilliant CBT therapist, Lisa. And that was like, because I was an impatient, she was coming to the bedside. When I was unconscious, she was chatting to mum and dad and helping them. Wow. So that was like two days a week as an impatient. And then I go back weekly. when I was in the UK. It was difficult and it's really like encouraging

and I don't want to keep talking about social but you know I follow like a lot of feminist accounts and I follow probably more women really you know of all ages actually and to see this kind of like anti-andra tape movement adolescence coming out me too times up

even now I'm like, wow, go, you go. You call that out because I'm not from that generation, you know. And I never really like to talk about my first attack. I'm from the generation of like, when I did publicity for my documentary, male journalists were like, well, why did you go to the hotel with that guy? And to be fair, to those journalists, I'm not even like having a go at them. No, that's that era.

I see what you're saying. Yeah, and it's not actually not a criticism of those people. You are younger than me, quite a lot younger than me. I can't tell you how many women of my generation were attacked in somewhere or another and never said anything about it for that reason precisely. I hate to say it, but it's quite women and normal. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, all the feelings that come with something so terrifying happening,

How do you, I'm not, when I'm talking about processing it and integrating it, I'm not even talking about bringing that person to justice. I'm talking about you and all the feelings and emotions. I mean, what did happen to you? Did you get anxiety? Were you? Yeah, I think the biggest mental health issue I had was post-traumatic stress, which manifested as like agoraphobia where I couldn't leave the house. Because I was like, if I. It was your safe space.

Yeah, and I was like, if I leave the house, I'm going to get attacked, and that was quite real. God, I mean, you were attacked in the street. Yeah, so it makes the streets everywhere on the bed. I know, and it was 5pm daylight and it was rush hour. So I think it's like when I think about all my like stay safe education, if you're raped, it was like stranger drags you down an alleyway in a bush. You know, it wasn't like someone you know. does this to you.

And obviously when we look at stats, child abuse and domestic violence is actually someone we know. And that's not what I thought. But I think what I did, and I'm really proud of myself actually when I look back on that is I removed myself from society. So I didn't have an email.

I didn't have a phone. And I stayed at home with mum and dad. And I didn't see that as a failure. And I didn't be like, oh, I'm agoraphobic. I want to be inspirational and brain. even push myself and go out. I actually just declined and I went into myself and that was good that I needed that.

I wasn't brave. No, but this is really interesting. I feel like that is brave. I mean, I think there is a society. I think, yeah, but I think there's a big pressure on people when they go through something. It's like you just said to be strong and face the, you know, face. the thing and go and that's a it's my it will be quite comforting i think for people to say it's okay the way that i healed myself was in fact a hideaway feel safe yeah in like therapies myself in a

funny kind of way i mean what how did you do that why was it good because it was no outside noise i had this thing like now i always feel um like a weird over it but uh i have this big like blank in popular culture. So like if you really look into this right, like any kind of like like top 10 singles and like top movies often contain like sex or violence, especially like songs are always about love, sex, romance, vast love, whatever. And I didn't, I couldn't tolerate sex or violence.

I'm a big Michael Jackson fan, right? And a lot of Michael Jackson songs are about environment, climate, family. Like he's the only real pop star that wasn't centered on like sex and love. love. So in all of my 20s, wow. Yeah, it's quite rare to find it, right? It's really fascinating. So all of my 20s, I didn't watch any films, television, or listen to music. So I watched like box sets of like Alan Partridge because I love Alan Partridge. Oh my God. Yeah. Like if I'm on the radio now, I'm conscious that I'm not being

Alan Partridge. So it was like nothing. So like now if like I'm with somebody who's my age, they're like, oh my God, remember that movie? Oh, that song. Oh, so you lost? And I'm like... A decade. Yeah, I've no idea what they're talking about. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but...

And I never say it. I just like, just don't contribute. But I only really know, like Elvis, Michael Jackson. I know the Spice Girls. But there's like a big blank of like... What was interesting in that? I mean, this is what I mean by it a bit lonely. Like you just said, I won't have seen it, but I'll never say it.

Because you're alone in this experience. It's a cultural. Yeah. Like do you remember now they have like Spotify and they stream? But we knew the songs because we were in the club. And then the DJ played the song. And then we, that was how, and then we bought the CD. So I didn't do that for like eight years.

I didn't go to our price. It's weird, isn't it, how those things can like, those references. Like, because then you're like a, what am I? I? I'm like a millennial 2000s baby, you know. But it's fine. I'm okay with that because, like, for all my losses, I've gained so much. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower.

Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on. antacids ginger tea and milk. Habaniero, more like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. Welcome aboard Via Rail. Please sit and enjoy. Please sit and sit. Play. Post. Taste. View and enjoy. Via Rail, love the way. I am, I've just thought about something around the time when you were recovering and you were talking about your mum and your mum went with you to France and she actually gave us some diary excerpts from that time when she was talking about you and how she was feeling. Do you mind if I...

Her diary? Yeah. Oh, God. My mum is so private. Do you mind if I read a couple? I am I really I'm not going to put my glasses on

my mum's saying I'm private and shy I think as a mum and you're a mum now and we've both got daughters and reading this now it's so powerful seeing as a mum

the things you have to go through about how much you love your daughter yeah so this one is from Thursday the 26th of June. What year? 2008. Oh, okay, it was very early then.

Kate feeling down today. I'm finding it hard to know what to do with her. Lots of tears today. The psychologist has said we must let her cry. She needs to release her emotions. But as a mum, I just want to comfort her. She's my child. I just want to make her better, but I can't.

I have to learn to stand back. she has to feel able to express her anger hurt and pain in any way she wants. Thought we'd go to Marwell Zoo, but got there too late. So went for a walk by River in Winchester. Kate's still nervous and unhappy at being out. The thing I got from that was letting you feel and holding space for you. But how hard that must. Must have been for her as a mum.

She'd try and get me out and we'd go to like pound shops, charity shops. The zoo, Marwell Zoo was the old school trip. So it was like a familiar place. And then she'd like pack a cool bag of like medication, sandwiches, liquidised food for me. And I'd get there and refuse to go in. And it, or in worse days we'd go in the pound shop and we'd be asked to leave. and things would just be a shit show

because of how you... Yeah, I mean my appearance was so different I had like a shaved head a plastic face mask, purple face and I sometimes think people thought I was like contagious or had some kind of disease and people would follow me

around the shot pointing at me and then it would cause like a whole scene and like just things would just it would always be like the intention to just, you know like with your mum you just moot you around don't you? looking at things. And it was like all those simple things in life you take for granted was so hard to do.

But mum kept trying. Because in like a really practical way, I needed to leave home again. But the offer was there to stay there forever. But they didn't want me to stay there forever. But I did want to stay there forever at first, I think, because I was sort of like not really... It's so funny when people talk about me, right?

It's like, oh, you're so inspirational. You're doing all these busy things. And it's like, yeah, but I wasn't, that's not what recovery is. It was small time, small goals. It wasn't setting up businesses, setting up charities. I wanted to stay at home forever for a long, long time. But at one point, like it felt like forever, you know. But I think things change, you know.

And people always look like when they narrate a story, they look for like this big moment. And I don't think life's like that. I think it's small moments, small things, repetition. You know, recovery isn't a movie with a nice wrapped up end scene. It's sort of like doing things and it being terrible and then doing it again. And it's not so terrible. You know, it was like consistency and repetition.

We've got another one here. And this one is July 2008. Sometimes dealing with her is like treading on eggshells. You can't say anything right. You get accused of being patronising or not caring enough. Sometimes there's no answer and really Kate doesn't want an answer. She just wants to let off steam. Totally get that.

And we are the first in the firing line. We have to be very strong and recognise that it's not personal. she's attacking the situation not us, letting out her frustrations and anger. I try not to let it affect me, but it does. I need to stay calm. It's so hard seeing her in so much turmoil. There's so much going on,

so many appointments to organise in so many places. Kate tries so hard to be positive, so we have to do our part and not let her see if we get upset. It is unfair. She is the one suffering the most. We have to let her rant and rave, be happy or sad, stay in her PJs all day if she wants to. Sometimes I'm glad that she feels safe enough to let it all out on us.

I know that no matter what, we will never desert her or stop loving her. And when we come out of all of this, we will be stronger than ever. She should come on here? Well, you know what? That's quite weird, you said that. As I was reading that, that is exactly what I thought as a parent to, she also went on her own journey. Right? I think a big learning curve is holding space for someone you really fucking love.

Yeah. To feel the feelings and not try and take them away no matter how uncomfortable they make you feel. You're right, because when people are going through stuff, the people that are supporting them ask you for advice. and it's like it's not about you. Stop trying to fix people. Stop, you can't take it away. And that's why it's so traumatic. And I think what she said there about me,

like we've got so much better about talking about mental health, but there's still only like surface level acceptable mental health, which is like sad, anxious. But real mental health is like being aggressive and psychotic and violent. And like what my mum's talking about is I was really aggressive. and like vocal and shouty and angry. And that's not really like the nice mental health we see on those squares. That's still quite shameful.

But what I rather liked about what she said is that she had an absolute understanding. And I think as a parent, I think you'll get this, that she was a safe place for you to be angry. Like if you'd have been with somebody else, a friend of hers you might not have felt free enough to feel fucking furious

but because it was your mother and you knew she loved you she was a safe enough place to really fucking feel it would that be fair I could even guess what happened that day that she wrote that entry

because I smashed up my childhood bedroom and they let me so I could hide it from the world and they never said anything. And they used to do this thing for me called face care. It was part of my treatment. Like when I came back from France, you have to have face care. So face care is like, when you're doing it from home with what you've got,

it's just like a tub of E-45 and you just lay on the bed. And you hang your head and your neck off the bed to stretch your burn and you massage it. And mum would do face care. And then I would feel like all, like, wet. And I was like, and obviously I'm blind. one eye, right? So I'd be like, and then I realised mum was crying on my face silently. So mum, and it was in mum's room that had an on-suit bathroom. So mum would swap with Dad and be like, I need a wee. And then the on-stit bathroom had a fan and she'd pull the fan. It should be

gone ages for a wee. So you couldn't hear. And then Dad would take over. And then I'd be feeling like, the same wet. And I'd be like, what is happening? And then Dad would go into the bathroom, the farm will stay on. Then Mom would come back. And they would do, like, shifts like that. And we used to play audio books. I had like a ghetto blaster. Yeah. We had CDs in a ghetto blanche.

We used to play like Deepak Chopra. This was even before people like Mel Robbins. It was like Rhonda Brine, like the secret. You know, like the really early day. And we used to play all that. And I'd come out and be like, oh, you'd missed CDA. You were in there for ages. I'm on CDB.

Almost not realising because I was, you know? Yes and no. Like the day I gave birth to my first child and I was a mum, I rang my mum and I was like, sorry, because now I'm a mum and now I understand. And yeah, I understand more now I'm a parent. But yeah, I knew some of it, but it was, it was like, because I had a lot of post-traumatic stress, I was always in like fight or flight. So it was, it was difficult. How did you deal with that? slowly each day taking it one day at a time and a deep deep belief for there is more beyond this and like there is life and I've lived for a reason and you know I was like very hopeful and

optimistic and I did feel bigger than what tried to hurt me very early on I was how did you understand that had that that hang on a minute I am bigger than what's happened to me. And when you said early on, how early on was that? I think it's a bit like a bereavement where it's not like, you don't meet up with someone and go, oh, you know, are you over it now? Like, because you never, like a bereavement is like you learn to live a bit, right? And, and you have radical self-acceptance. And it's like, let's put that to rest now because that's gone. And I think I went through all those stages of grief that we know and understand about, with that safe place of like anger being one and many

other things. And I knew I wasn't going to be the same again. And I think it was having such a full life when I was young. I was like, I really did that to death. Like, thank God for that chapter. Here's the new chapter. Here's the new me. And I was like, curious, I suppose, curious to see what lay ahead. I knew it wasn't going to be the same thing as what I was used to. But I was curious to see what God had in store. But you said quite early on, I thought, okay, I have potential for something else. When did that start? Well, there were like big things thrust upon me like, you know, big surgeries, big trials. What was your biggest surgery? I think they were all equally big and demanding and physical and big things like going into crowded, even like the beginning

of this world, right, where they're like, oh, you're cosmopolitans, inspirational women, come to the barbican and you're, you're a bit of. And you're a lot. And you're, you're, like, oh, that's really nice and everything. But it's also full of like, people that I can't relate to it. And it's like noisy. And it's like all these things. So like everything was always a first and like it was like really putting myself out there. But I kind of knew that I was born to be alone and do those things and that. And I could. And it was like that self-belief of like, well, come on now. People do die from these injuries and you didn't. And I think it's almost like gratitude of like you've experienced it in the medical world where these people, whether it's

private, whether it's NHS, whatever it is, they don't have a lunch break. They don't, they don't, their holidays are determined around the list, right? And they fast and they go into theatre and then it takes longer than they four and then they have to ring colleagues and they do radical things and then they're just on to the next and have a prep like a sandwich, you know. And it's like so much time money and expertise was spent on saving my life, how dare I not live it? You know, it's almost rude, right? And that gave me a confidence because, like,

so many people bothered and believed in me, they must be on to something. It's fascinating because I'm always, I just always fascinated by how is somebody positive? Like, is it, I'm not sure, is it genetic? Is it something we're born with? Is it something that I feel like you are a very naturally positive person, but you have talked about your mum and said she's a very positive person.

Perhaps it's genetic. Or is it because you went through this experience and it's done something to you that's made you, but I know other people who've been through terrible experiences who just can't get past it? So what's your take on that and your positivity? Yeah, it's an interesting question because I suppose you can only talk about your own experience and you don't know what it's like to grow up differently to an experience that you had. And my mum and my dad were both optimistic people. And the advantage I've had over other people is I grew up with stability and I grew up feeling wanted and I grew up feeling loved.

And I always had somewhere to return to if I fucked up. And not everyone has that, right? And you can't underestimate like there's a solid foundation. and if things got shaky in adulthood like they did, I still had that foundation. And that's a privilege, right? You meet other people now and they tell you about their foundational lack of it and you realize that wasn't everyone's experience. So I don't want to say being positive to choice because not everyone had the same toolkit. But I just think, like for me, I mean, this is why I started the book because I was 39 and every time I was being interviewed,

actually primarily by female journalists, they were like, do you mind if we print your real age? Do you mind if we talk about the big birthday that's coming up at the end of the year? Oh my God. Yeah. Do you know, Katie, what is people's obsession with age? They never do that to men. It's women's, it's also weird.

Ever. It's internalized misogyny for women. Yeah. It's not male journalists. And it's like the same time people were saying that to me, Baobabe was dying. She was my age with kids my age. Deborah James.

Yeah. Would you just explain for anybody that's watching that may not be British or have known who Deborah James was, how you came across her and why she made such a massive impact on all of us, really? She was an amazing woman that was going through stage four bowel cancer. She was a lover of life, owned loads of sequin clothing, had young children, she was a schoolteacher, she was a people person, and she decided to document her medical fight. and you know I would never want to say I understand what she went through because I've never been sentenced with a terminal illness right but what I saw in Deborah was she has what I called a hospital mum which is her mum, Heather and I have a hospital mum and what hospital mums do

is they lose their social circle they don't go to the pub quiz anymore they get compassionately from work or they lose their job and they eat from the vending machine for a year and they sleep on the plastic chair at the bedside and then they sit in the recovery suite playing Sudoku whilst they wait for you to come out of recovery and I saw Deborah's hospital mom and I saw and she even looks like my mom Deborah's mom. She's the same like blow drive and I just got obsessed with the story because I was like and she was really honest you know sometimes with terminate honest people make peace with their death and that's their journey and Deborah was like no I want to live really want to live really do and I remember

thinking, I remember that, wanting to live and feeling like this is unfair, you know. And she really inspired me to like grow some balls, you know, and like, okay, I look different and I'm not going to be a once cup of tea, but she would give anything to still be here, whether it meant looking different, whatever it meant. She just wanted to be there for the kids and like be there while they grow up. She wouldn't have cared being burnt or whatever, you know. and it really, really inspired me. And so when people were asking me about this birthday, I was just like, this is wild.

Like, do you understand the alternative of not being 40s? It's having what's happened to Deborah. You know, I am so proud of living. And all this internalized misogyny is because I've been through this. I've had round one. Now it's round two. Round one was 24 and no longer being pretty because beauty is the most powerful currency a woman can have.

Okay, 17 years later, You're now placing this value on youth because youth is another powerful cancer that women can have, right? When you talk like this, it is mad. It is mad, right? So now I'm not beautiful and I'm not young. So now you're like, do I want to tell everyone or shall I say I'm 37 forever? And I'm just like, do you know what? I am now in my peer group, one of the most powerful and beautiful women in the peer group,

not by Western beauty standards, not by symmetry standards. And everyone told me that, like, a basically disfigured person couldn't be that. I am that because I ignored society and I made my own way and I rejected beauty standards. I rejected conforming to that. And it kind of like it makes me so angry because we're lying to young people. I mean, we're even lying to young people that 20s are your heyday. Like in your 40s, most people are the most financially stable and secure they've been, most boundyed, most wise, most confident.

But we dress up that they are the 20s are the best. and then we actually diminish in our currency and our value, that we're washed up, that we're somehow rejects. But it's not true. Do you know, like if there was a moment there where I wanted to go, It's great day! Yes! Yeah.

And I thought, no, just let have any interrupt this thing. But I'm so like with you. And also, I really remember getting older. Yeah. And going through perimenopause, and slightly, like, grieving the way that I had become a bit invisible. I was like, oh, I kind of disappeared. Yeah.

And going through a phase of like, this is what I have to part with. Then I realized you can wear outlandish clothes. Yeah. And you can wear brightly coloured lipstick. You can Irene Apple this shit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like dress it outlandishly.

Yeah. And they might not. look at you for the same reasons, but it's like I'm still here. And that's gradual, right? You're aging out of the male gaze gradually. Mine was like 30 seconds. This is another term that you used that I was like,

oh, wow, you disappeared from the male gaze. The male gaze. I've never heard that before. And I was like, oh, like, that is so kind of weird, hard to get your head round. Because it took ages for me, but I was grieving for ages. And rightly so, like I understand it, like 30 seconds before people were clamouring to like get my MySpace address and chat to me. And then post everything happening, I was like in places and no one spoke to me.

And I was like, people in Poundland are asking you to leave. Yeah. I can't, I can't just. But that's why when I started to age, I really wanted to say to people, this is okay. And actually you are super powerful. Yeah, you have so much to offer. And like this is something that's happened to you gradually. And also, you know, actually I don't want to make this into an anti-man thing

because the people that rebuilt my life were all men. My surgeon, the lawyers, the Mepa, like my father, like strong male role models. And we can't have equality and privilege and a great life as women without men. They are our allies. and we have to do, we can't, we're more, we divide each other more when we go against, so we need to, we need to do it together. But like, what is the male gaze? Like, why are we so?

Why is, because I was there where external gratification and attention was my goal. It was my focus. I've got kind of half an idea about what I think it's about and it's in your 20s and it's important. Yeah. And then you kind of get used to it and it's still happening a little bit in your 30s and then less so in your 40s. and for me it's biology, right?

Fertility. It's fertility. Yeah. It's mating. It's about carrying on the human race. I want to look attractive so that you will inseminate me and we can make children to keep the human race going. I think it's that biological. But what happens is we start to kind of slightly enjoy it, not just for having babies,

but just because, oh, like, hang on a minute. a bit sexy or good here. And then when it starts going, you're like, oh, it's going. And so are my eggs and so are everything else. But for you, it wasn't that. It was like it's gone. It's gone. Yeah.

And who am I without that? And this is, but I didn't want it to be one of those like, go grey. Don't use Botox. Don't wear, because that's not who, that's not true. If I go grey, I will be dying it, right? And I hold my hands up and say, look, I'm not perfect. and I've always been glam and I love being glam and I've got what do you mean by perfect what do you see society's version of well I think it's a twisted thing of like oh well if you're a feminist

you shouldn't dress revealing you know if if you're happy of who you are why are you dying your hair or why you're having Botox you know these things and it's like because I love expressing myself and communicating and I love feeling fabulous and it's part of who I am and I'll be that woman in a leopard print leg in at 80. You know. Right next you, Kate. Yeah. You know, and I don't, I don't feel weak because of that.

I don't feel ashamed because of that. Well, I think actually that's quite strong. Yeah, listen, if another man had never fancied me ever again, I would have had children through a sperm clinic, right? I would have carried on with this career. I would have had fulfillment. I would have, it wouldn't have been my choice, but I would have forged away and found happiness, you know.

I'd like to talk to you about getting back onto the dating scene, actually. You were talking about finding another man to fancy me, and you talking in here about your experience of dating was so, well, I mean, I'll let you tell the first few stories of you kind of on dating apps. So what, like, how soon after your operations and you going through, were you still living at home when you started dating? No, it was, so basically I lived at mum and dad's. And then I moved out probably like a year or so.

Maybe like, I suppose it was 2008. It happened. I think I moved out in like just around the end of 2010. And I moved to West London. I got like a one-bed flat. And it's funny because like when people ask me about dating as a burn survivor, it was shocking. It was difficult.

There were loads of barriers. But we always look at things like we've romanticised it and it's always rose-tinted spectacles. My dating history was shocking. when I was hot. It was always shocking and it's like not to blame the men. Like maybe I was always the problem. But when I talk to friends now that are super intelligent, successful, gorgeous and they're single and dating is a nightmare now and all the apps and like like really, to be honest, whoever I speak to, dating is challenging and it doesn't matter what they look like.

But yeah, it was difficult and I want to be honest to people because I know a lot of people follow me with Feudius Figuement. I don't want to be really honest. Like it is a barrier for some people and it is a problem for some people and I think that's okay. I don't think we should pretend that everyone should fancy everyone because that's not really real life. And you're allowed to not fancy tall people. That's, that's you. And actually what can happen sometimes is you then work with someone really tall and get to really know them and actually then be like, I've really fancy you. But you might not have approached them in a bar. I often feel like having a is just the worst way you can approach dating at all.

Because type at the end of the day, once you get to know someone, someone who is an adonis without a nice personality or a similar moral code to you or the same outlook on important things like raising children or... I don't know, it could be anything. They'll become unattractive to you, even if they're the most... But somebody, regardless of what they look like, who in personality just gets on with everything, I don't know, now I'm older, it looks are so unimportant. Yeah. Well, also, people become sexy.

Yes. You know, it's like, yeah, it's a sort of like connection and an embodiment and an energy and an energy and an outlook. Yeah. It's so much more than a physical. physical attributes. But we have to be honest, to get there, you have to initially draw them in. So that's the issue, isn't it? You do have to have to have to have that.

But then you think on an app, you know, you can talk for ages. Yeah. Text, message. You can get to really know someone. I think it's sad how flippant people get. Like, oh, didn't like that look, but you really like them online for ages. And you think, really, you're going to just not like. I think also for me a barrier was like this kind of ableism of like the public, especially in the UK, the public was so good to me, so kind. I'm only here because people got behind me and supported me, men and women, right, of all different ages. And I don't just mean supported me by buying books or watching programmes. I just mean genuinely like lovely people coming up to me in the street and like actually rooting for me because I think everyone's experienced abuse in some capacity. Like coercive,

emotional, physical, grew up, seeing the parents abusing one another. Yes. Whatever it is. It's the unsaid like you're in Tesco and it's the unsaid, you know, you get that a lot. Yes, I bet you do. Yeah. But sadly, what kind of does happen, you know, like on paper I have a disability, right? I am blind, I have a facial disdement.

It's class as disabled, right? So sadly what that means to a lot of people. a criticism because it comes from a good place is we really desexualized people like that they wouldn't think of as having like a sex life yes and also if they're a woman they're cute bless you oh bless you're cute you're inspirational you're strong your um you're you're you're sweet you know and especially having like a sexual attack attached to you like you're in a like you're in a zone like a little ring around you and it's it's not the zone you used to be in when you were going to China White at 24.

It's very different. So it's not nasty, but it's not where you want to be in your 20s. So how did you and Richard connect? How did that happen? Blotbuster still existed. No Netflix and show. And love film. Do you ever remember love film?

Yeah. They'd post you there. Yeah. Yeah, you had to send it back after three days, as you got fined. So always got fined. I love that. Mind you shy, like the detail.

Yeah. He lived in like countryside Essex out in like Billy Ricky. I lived in like Hammersmith, West London. So it was like on the A406 to see each other on a Friday night. It was like two or three hours each way. I worked in the week. He worked in the week as a carpenter. So we couldn't see each other in the week.

So we take it in turns each Friday to drive to each other's flat. But how did you find each other? So it was the day of the Blackberry and my friend was like dating his friend and we'd go to like pub gardens in a group. So he met via mates. Kind of, yeah. And he asked for like my BBM pin. And I was like, oh, I'm not giving him my BBM pin.

I don't know him. He ignores me in the pub guard. Doesn't speak to me face to face. Just ignores me. And my friend was like, all right, well, he's only asked for your pin to chat to you. You know, maybe he doesn't know how to approach you. And obviously then like two days later, I was like, oh, you know, that guy that wanted the pin. You can share it now, actually. And then he shared the pin. And then I was

making a stem cell documentary with Channel 4. And I was going to Minnesota, right? So big time difference out in America. And I was going to Minnesota for like a month. And we just started chatting on BBM. And then we became like phone friends where we talk on the phone and then you fall asleep and you wake up with the phones on the pillow. Oh, can I just say that's more than friends? It was very like, that's deep. falling asleep talking to somebody that's deep. Yeah.

It was friendly friend and stuff and the problem was my reference point had been like you know guys would come up to me and chat to me and I'd be like oh maybe he likes me and then they'd be like my wife loves you and I'd just be like well that's great David

yeah thanks David I don't want to hear that you know and then it would just be like at least you were getting that I get my grand last year I wasn't there then but it was always like this thing of like oh he's nice like I wonder if and then like oh no

who am I to wonder that his wife likes me or he wants me to sign a book for a raffle or wants me to open the village gate yeah it was always like desexualised yeah and then I'd like

be like oh because I've got to be nice because everyone knows me as nice it was like a bit of a luxury problem you know so we'd fall asleep on the phone and then I came back to the UK and then we were having our like blockbuster love film relationship

And it was still friends. And then I like unexpected. But you had feelings at this point? I was always just like, who am I to dare even ponder this? So you were too, oh, Katie. Well, I just, you were too scared to hope. It just felt like these are the scraps I'm given and I shouldn't try and like fantasize beyond. Like, you know, because it might be like bad for me to interpret this like something else.

Wow. You know, and I didn't, I was grateful for what we had. you know, so that is a lot, I don't know, to think about from you being this girl before to this girl who just had sort of slight, it's not, well, you had sort of slightly given up hope, it's not that you were a victim about it or really depressed and you were like, look, you know, I was practice, it is life. Yeah. It's my life. But there was this guy sort of trying in a way. I feel like he's flirting with you, right? I never knew.

Well, yeah, maybe. Maybe he was. Did he have to tell you? Katie, I'm flirting with you. No. I mean, like to just like get context, this was 13 years ago, right? Right. So this was like no diversity at any, like this was like all the beauty ads were like people

didn't have pores. There was no representation, okay? Like how you saw Burns was to fundraise for them in school assembly. and military heroes, like it just wasn't there. And I unexpectedly had a problem with my septum and I had to go and have nasal cartilage surgery which meant removing a rib, using a walking stick and having a osmosis expander.

So an osmosis expander is, it looks like a grain of rice and when it hits moisture, it expands to stretch burnt tissue. Okay. So I had to have an osmosis. expand it and jetted into here and that expands like a big bowlless like tumour almost on your face so when i knew i had to be done i was like okay just to let you know we're supposed to be in the like shave the top of your leg yeah fancy underwear period and i'm about to have a walking stick and a facial tumor oh god wow katie and i was like you've got a six-pack and you're really good

looking so if you just want to go now wait wait wait i need to unpick this because Did you say to him, you've got a six-pack and you're really good-looking? Or did you just say, look. Did you? I was just like, look, I'm having some unexpected medical problems here. And you're very young. It's 27. I was like, you're very young and good-looking.

And also I had taken, basically I had taken rejection drugs for a transplant. I'd had a cornea transplant. And one of the side effects is infertility. And I never had periods after what happened to me. I think it was like the shock. So I also thought it was infertile. Quite the catch. But this is so much for you to be processing at the same time as trying to consider the idea that you might like someone and they might.

That's why I didn't even dare because I was just like, I'm the lower one here. And if the exchange of like hierarchy, I'm not, I'm not the top one, right? But what was he saying to you? And were you hearing him? He was like, oh. I've rented the love film in my name and you've got them I'm going to get fined

we have to meet up on Friday to get the love film and like you know and you have to give the CD back you know and the jumper and he was like but I thought everything was going really well and I was like yeah but you don't understand he was like well I'll come to the hospital and visit you

but it annoyed made me cross because I was like oh it's not like a cast on your arm you can't just come to the hospital I have like drains and iodine and like you're You can't just come to the hospital. Oh, it annoyed you. Yeah, I was, and then what, but, and then what did you say to him and what did he say about?

I was always really mean, because I was always defensive. And I was like, I totally understand that. It was a nice and fluffy. It's so difficult, but this is what I'm, love came out of something. Yeah. Really difficult. Do you mind talking about this? Because I'm in it.

I'm so invested. It's not like the nice story everyone wants it to be. I was horrid. I don't want it to be anything. Yeah. But what I love is that it is the nice story. Yeah. Look at where it ended. Yeah. He loves you. Yes, he does. That is true. Wow. And he was like, well, I am coming. And he was like, well, there'd be parking because I hate London. Because he's not a London person. He's an Essex person. And I was like, God, get the tube. And then he did come. And it was really funny because it was like, mum came to him. And obviously, like, normally your mum doesn't meet your boyfriend. Yeah. So then mom had to meet him in like the ward, you know.

And he came with like gratia and some like frazzles. Well, Garcia and Frazzles. I mean, oh my God, winner. Yeah. And then I was only in hospital for like a couple of days. It wasn't like thing. And then the recovery was like I couldn't stand up straight because it was the top right rid.

So then again I was just like, look. And it was like we were at home at Blockbusters and I was just like, I'm not going to come to Blockbuck. We used to do the deal with the ice cream and the Doritos and the Phil. And I was like, I'm not going to come. Just get the deal and walk back to the flat. And he was like, because you don't know what it's like, I've got like big scabs and dressing and a walking stick.

And they had to take some skin from the edge of my face. And it was all black, right? I was like, people will stare at me. They might say things. And it's embarrassing for you. And like, you just go, get the ice cream, get the Doritos. And he was like, I don't care. He was like, I'm, he has a nut allergy.

He was like, you need to come because if it's no nut stuff, We need to make an agreement on other food. And I was like, oh, for God's sake, I don't care, just get whatever. And he was like, well, I'm not going. So we don't have anything to watch. Can I just say, he's great? Isn't he? He knew how to work you.

And we went with the walking stick from Hammersift to Chisit High Road. It was good this year. Oh, I love him. That was our romance. But he got you. Yeah. On a cellular love. He forced me. He did. He did what your mum did to you.

Yeah. And this is like British, like this is like tough love. Yes. It's not like going to someone. Oh, it's what's on the inside that counts. That's not like powerful enough. No. So then I was like, oh, for God's sake. And we went. And people did like second take. Of course they did. I had a floral walking stick and like a black scab and like a nose out here. And then I think, what did we get? I think we got like going to America, Eddie Murphy. Doritos and like fish food, the fish food ice cream. And that was it when we were inseparable.

Then we were inseparable. Then it was like honeymoon period. Wow. Yeah. And, you know, you talked a bit about fertility and being scared that you might not be able to have kids. And he was, did you talk about that quite early on? Yeah.

And I think he was a bit like happy go lucky young, 27 year old bloke where he was like Not even think about it. Yeah. And I think men are a bit like that, maybe a younger year. And I was up front about it and he was like, oh, you know, whatever. I'm not thinking about that. And there was no deep chat about that.

And then we were together. That was 2012. I remember it well because it was the year of the Olympics. Yeah. And I was working with big year. Yeah. Right. Channel 4. I was working with them and they were hosting the parrots. And I was a torch holder for the light in the cauldron. And he came and

Katie. That's mega, isn't it? Wow. It was like this thing of like we got all these tickets from Channel 4 for like wheelchair basketball, blind football. So I was like, I've got all these tickets to the Olympics, but it's the Paris. And he was like amazing, cool. And we went to all these different people of different disabilities doing amazing things. And he was so interested.

And I was like, oh, he's like got depth, you know, not just a nice jaw. And a six-pack. Yeah. And then that was 2012 And then like we moved in together And then in 20 Late 2013 Like Christmas 2013

I was volunteering out in Tanzania I was working at a burn unit For children Bottom of Kilimanjaro And I used to be a smoker right And I was out there And we were staying in that hostel So it wasn't like very sanitised

And I was always ill in the hostel Like vomiting, diarrhoea I was smoking like mould were red Tanzanian cigarette, Tanzanian beer every night. So ill. And when I came home, I was still ill. And I was like, why are I still ill? I need to go and have some bloods done at the GP.

And they did a pregnancy test. And I was over six weeks pregnant. So obviously in my head, I was like, oh my God, I've been smoking like marlbou red and drinking all this beer. And I was like, I need to go and tell him. And so I went home. We were living together by then, right? And he was making pasta. He was making. And he hadn't put the sauce on.

He was like sauceless. pen, pasta. And I was like, so I'm, I'm pregnant. And he was like, you? I was like, yes, and he was like, oh, right, okay, now. I was like, now. And he's like, what happens next? I was like, I don't know. I don't know. He's like, should we go to the petrol station and get another stick to check? I think he thought like, she's blind, what she's talking about. So we got another stick and I did a wee and then and then he was like oh you're pregnant yeah he's like would I do I still put sauce on the pasta I think so

yeah because moul of a red spin all right so definitely dolmeo's fine I love that he's already taking care of you yeah sauce okay oh bless wow he was buried about garlic how amazing

yeah and you've had You've had two girls. Yeah, so that was Belle. She's now 11. And then we went on to have P, who's now seven. Yeah. Both through natural conception. So, like, totally blessed.

P took a bit longer because then you're, like, planning. And you're on those unromantic, like, ovulation apps and stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah. It's hard that. But after what you've been through, you've been through so much, you know, it's like just, I'll deal with this. Yeah.

This is going to be okay. Obviously, we've just talked about becoming a mother, and I know that you and your mum became very close, really, when you moved back home. Yeah. And my dad as well. He was a bit of that. Yeah.

Yeah. But your mum has written you a letter. Really? Oh, my God, I'm surprised. And I, if it's all right with you, I'm going to read it to you. Okay. Are you okay? Yeah.

She would have hated you. So tell me why you're surprised. Because my mum is just like traditional and strong and stoic and, you know, like she's so loving, but she's like, you've just got to get on with it, dear. You know, you really have. She's not gushy. She wouldn't like to go on telly. I had to force her to be in my doc, you know.

She's just, it's like a different generation and she's just not like that. And I wouldn't want her to be any other way. But she's very private, you know. Would it be fair to say that your relationship, you got closer later in life? Yeah. Deeper. Yeah, like all relationships, you know, like my childhood,

she, like I always knew at the centre of my mum's life was us, us three, I was the middle child. And with my mum, she worked as a teacher, then she worked in waitrose, then she was a childminder, then she was a teaching assistant. And at the centre of my mum's life was our education and our stability. And she was the taxi and took us to every whole, hobby, you know. But then, you know, I'm ashamed to say then in my teens, like, I really like

majored against her. You know, I was a difficult teen and I think she found it hard to make sense of that. And I think my trauma and that recovery like united us and we found each other. Well, we chose each other because you don't choose your mom, do you? But you have later in life, you know if it was a good relationship because you do fly home. Yeah. God, in recovery, I chose my step-mom. Okay, you ready? Oh, God, okay, all right. Dear Kate, I was looking through some photos of you the other day, and it made me reflect on how far you've come since that dreadful day in March 2008.

As a mother, it was heartbreaking to see you hurt, to see you so badly damaged and feeling so helpless in the face of your pain. But what stands out to me the most is the incredible strength you showed, even in those early days. When everything seemed uncertain in the few, looked so hard, you refused to let it define you. You turned a dreadful situation into an opportunity to grow and to become even stronger. It wasn't easy. There were setbacks, struggles and moments of doubt, but you kept going and you conquered one challenged after another.

You kept that sense of humour that you had as a child and even in difficult times you managed to make us all smile. You prove to me and to yourself that no matter what life throws at you, you have the power to take control and overcome. Over the years, I've had the privilege of watching you blossom. Your career has been a testament to your tireless work ethic

and your stubborn determination. And in addition to your career, you started your charity because you wanted to give back and make a difference. I've watched you work so hard on that too. That's who you are. A person who not only overcomes adversity, but who is driven to help others do the same. And then I've watched you become a mother.

To see you with your girls, teaching them the same values I taught you, strength, resilience, kindness and determination has been one of the greatest joys of my life. I can see the love, the pain, patience and the wisdom in your interactions with them. You're passing down the very qualities that made you who you are today and I am so proud of you. As a mother, there's nothing more rewarding than seeing your child grow into the person you always hoped they would be, strong, compassionate,

and capable of navigating the ups and downs of life with grace and courage. I am so proud of everything you've accomplished and even prouder of the amazing woman, wife and mother you've become. I'm going to end this letter with the best piece of advice I have ever given you. Just get on with it, dear. With all my love, mum. That's our private joke. Just get on with it, dear. It said it in ICU. Yeah, it's, you can't go back and change things. But when you become a mum, you can give them everything. And I don't want to see everything I didn't have because I had everything.

But the greatest gift my mum has given me is to be able to parent. And that's what I'm trying to do, parent them, like she parented me. But with the wisdom of some of the other things that happen to me that I'll never be able to change. And I'm so private about my children. You know, I don't put them on social. I don't take them to work things. And I want them to have that agency and that anonymity to go out into the world and fuck everything up

and enjoy life and be who they want to be. And I want to keep them so safe. But not be like a helicopter to mum. You know, I want them to choose me and fly home to me. But go out there. And I don't know if mom knows this, but she did do that for me, even though we, like, butted heads quite a lot. But I was allowed to butt heads with her because I knew we'd never fall out. She's so...

Yeah. And I hope I create that. I mean, I'm already there with my eldest where she's like, can you stop walking next to me on the street when we walked to school? I'm like, sorry. So sorry. Like I went to Korea's Day on Monday for years six. And I was like, did a 30 minute talk about being a writer and a TV presenter. And I was like, did you like it?

And she was like, why did you wear the cardigan with feathers on? Oh, my God. Because I'm jassy. I'm jassy. I touched the small of my son's back a couple of years ago. I've never touched him since. I was like, I'm really sorry. I touched him.

And it's hard because I'm not, in some ways I am the mum my mum was. But in other ways, I'm not because my mum dedicated her life to us. she sacrificed her career. And I'm not ashamed to say, I don't, I don't, I sacrifice parts of my career. Of course I do. But I am a career woman, which is different to what my mom was, you know. And she's had opinions on that too, and I understand that. But Richie's a good dad. And we, we work together as a team, you know. But yeah, I'm so grateful to my mom and dad that they gave me all of this so that I could be who I am today. that's why all that I am is them not what happened to me yes absolutely and this is the

overriding message i'm going to end with me holding this book because everybody should get this book no honestly katy i i i knew you a bit before and but i i read this and i really know you and I like you so much. Your message in this book is brilliant for everybody. Everyone in life should read this book. I feel like me and you've just run a marathon together with no refreshments. Yeah. I feel like kind of exhausted.

Yeah. Yeah. But in a good way, I am happy exhausted. This is... Well, I just love what you're doing because I don't know, could I have done this interview like 10 years ago and what would have been the platform. Like, I feel like I couldn't.

And I feel like what I can do here with you is say things that might have been like a seat, not a secret, but just I just don't know if there was like the space for that, you know. And that you haven't, you know, I've done interviews in the past with women. And it feels like they want to catch you out. And it's accusation or there's, that is weird ownership and blame. And I don't know, I just feel like what your creating is really special. Well, God.

And I respect you so much. So coming from you, that's really high praise. And I thank you very, very, very much for that. It helps lots of people. Katie, you help lots of people. Can we just quickly mention your charity? Can we just, would you just mention it by name? Just in case anybody's watching that might need a bit of help. We will obviously put a link to it as well everywhere. So we're a national charity, the Katie Piper Foundation. We're there for anybody who's had traumatic scarring or a burn injury. We fund rehabilitation, scar management, psychological support, and we support partners and family as well as the survivor. And we always need people to do crazy things for us to raise money as well. And any volunteers? Do you never need volunteers or people to help you?

Yeah, it's about community and that's the thing that as you've heard talking to me at length, it doesn't take just the survivor or one person to help somebody, any recovery, whatever it is, whether it's a benefit. It takes a village and that's what we always need. and we're always grateful for anybody in any capacity. Katie, I really love you. I love you too.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for trusting me. Coming here, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to say. I don't know if I've got anything to say. What have I got to say compared to other guests? I was really worried.

Isn't that like... And it's not just what you've said. It's what we've learned. Yeah. I've really enjoyed it. Is that a weird word? to say, enjoyed it. I've enjoyed every second of it. It was amazing. Thank you.