Begin Again with Davina McCall - Leading Sex Expert Tracey Cox on How to Have the Best Sex of Your Life!

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall sits down with internationally renowned sex and relationships expert Tracey Cox for a bold and enlightening conversation about the myths that sabotage our most intimate connections. Tracey shares decades of insight into what really drives desire, why so many couples lose their spark, and how outdated beliefs about sex, orgasms, and aging are quietly damaging our relationships. With honesty, humour, and hard truths, she explains how midlife can be the beginning of your best sex yet — if you’re willing to unlearn what you’ve been taught. Together, Davina and Tracey explore the psychology of attraction, the silent killers of intimacy, and the emotional blocks that stop us from asking for what we want in bed. They uncover how shame, performance pressure, and unspoken expectations hold us back — and what it really takes to feel empowered, connected, and satisfied. This is a conversation about rewriting the rules, reclaiming your pleasure, and reimagining what intimacy can look like at any age. Brave, liberating, and packed with wisdom — Tracey’s message is a wake-up call to anyone who wants more from their love life. 📢 We’d love to hear from you: What’s one sex myth you’re ready to leave behind? Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod (00:00) Intro   (01:54) Meet Tracey Cox: Sex & Relationships Expert   (03:34) How to Talk to Kids About Sex   (15:14) Rethinking the Orgasm Experience   (20:11) Is Porn Numbing Our Sexual Desire?   (23:00) Keeping Your Sex Life Alive Long-Term   (37:35) Vaginal Health Essentials Every Woman Should Know   (41:42) Facing Bedroom Performance Pressure   (43:04) Erotica, Fantasy, and Reigniting Desire   (49:24) Understanding 'Sexless' Relationships   (56:30) Spontaneous vs. Planned Sex: What Works Best?   (58:54) Love Languages Decoded for Better Intimacy   (1:02:07) Sex After 50: What Changes and What Doesn’t   (1:06:11) Inside Open Relationships: Polyamory & More   (1:14:58) Lubrication Myths Busted and Facts That Matter   (1:19:47) Men's Libido, Testosterone & Sexual Health   (1:24:38) What Viagra Really Does (and Doesn’t)   (1:27:32) Can You Truly Recover from Cheating?   (1:33:52) Tracey’s Top 5 Game-Changing Sex Tips   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sex is like one of my favourite topics that we're never allowed to talk about in this country. And if it has got a little bit better, it's because of you. Most women don't orgasm through penitative sex. If there's one myth that drives me insane, it's that women want romantic sex on a beach. No, they don't. They want explicit sex. Way more explicit than men. Great sex starts at 50.

The thing is, 30% of people who are in a long-term relationship aren't having sex after two years. Okay, so what are your top? five things to have great sex? Well, number one, also no, any sex problem can be solved if you can talk to your partner. Yes. How often would you say, should we have sex? So what would be a reason for scheduling sex? The more you have sex and more you want it, because your body remembers it, right? The idea is to make sex a habit.

But then how do you keep a marriage full of desire? What you cannot do, you mustn't do, is... Oh, wow. I think that's so... interesting. I'd never really thought about that. This chat was an absolute must listen to for anybody that is in a relationship and is worried about anything to do with their sex lives or not in a relationship, whether you're young or old. You must listen to this pod. I learnt so much.

Tracy Cox is just, she is brilliant at being, understanding, inclusive, thoughtful. She will make you look at it from a man's point of view, a woman's point of view. This is a must listen. I can't stress that enough. Oh, and like and subscribe. You must do that as well. Oh, I mean, Tracy, I have been like literally, waiting patiently for this interview.

I am so excited. I've got to say, I'm half French, so sex is like one of my favourite topics that we're never really allowed to talk about in this country without being shamed badly, I feel. It's got a little bit better, surely. Do you feel like it has? Yeah, I do feel like it has got a little bit better. And if it has got a little bit better, it's because of you. Thank you.

No, honestly, how long ago was it that you were writing for Cosmo, right? Yes. Back in Australia. How long ago was that? Gosh. Well, I'm now 63 and I was writing for Cosmo. Oh, look at my 30s. Yeah.

Yeah. So in my 30s, I was running for Cosmo. Oh, Tracy. Amazing. Okay. Yeah, so riding for Cosmo in my 30s. Yeah. So that was when it all started, really, was writing a sex column for Cosmopolitan and then I became Associate Editor of Cosmo.

And Cosmo is all about sex. Yes. So that was the fascination. But the fascination was before that, actually, because my sister used to work for family planning. So, well, you know, every other kid was reading Dolly magazine and sort of looking at Doll, she was like slipping these leaflets how not to get an STD or back then called SDGs. How to put on a condom? I was like, Deb, I'm like 10. She's in my blood.

What I think is quite interesting is this is a really good way to start, actually. For anybody that might be listening or watching, that's a parent, I think often we think as parents, we do not want to tell our kids about sex because it's going to make them do it. Because it's so much fun. Yeah, so can you explain the kind of the thinking behind, Why is it completely opposite and how can it help kids by talking about it rather than not? We remember when you're a kid.

You want to do something that you don't, that's mysterious and you don't understand. The more children are taught about sex, the lower the age of when they lose their virginity, the lower the, you know, unwanted pregnancies, all that sort of stuff. Because you're taking away the appeal of it. If you say this is what's going to happen when you have sex, they've got, you know, And there's no curiosity there. But what you're saying is not the low of the age that they have sex because they're having sex when they're older. But the lower the interest, but the higher the age.

That's right. So let's start that again. So the more information children have, or teens have about sex, the only you talk to your kids about sex, the better. And you don't want to have that big sit down and have the birds and the bees conversation. You want to talk about it and just drop it into the conversation. like you would. Your hair looks nice today or what are we going to have a banana for breakfast? Just little snippets about sex. And in fact, somebody was telling me the day, well, no, we've got a letter for the podcast. And this woman had written in and said, I've been really open with my daughter. She's 12 because my parents were really close with me.

And it took me a long time to go to a sex therapist to discover how to orgasm, all that sort of stuff. But she said to her 12-year-old, there's a place on a woman's body. that gives you pleasure and that, you know, we can talk about this later on. And the girl turned around and said, mommy, when we get home, can you show me where this please, this is please? And show me what to do with it. So she goes, maybe later, darling. And then writes to me and says, oh my God, what do I do now?

And it's like, well, you obviously don't have to show her where her clitoris is. But, you know, don't back away from it. Like just say, you know, we can talk about that later on. You'll probably discover it yourself. But the thing is, it actually protects children because they know that if kids know the correct name for their genitals, like vagina, clitorous, breasts, and, you know, it's not like my mu-moo or my whatever. Yeah. Anyone, any sex predator is going to be frightened off because they're going to think to themselves, well, they know this is true. They think, this kid knows what's going on.

She's not going to be the one that I can pretend we're just playing a game or whatever. So you protect your children by giving them information about sex. What's interesting you talking about that in terms of a sexual predator, the language that they might use or the danger that we're putting our kids in by not telling them the appropriate wording for their genitals? I think that's so interesting. I'd never really thought about that. In terms of online or trying to find places or ways to teach kids online, are there any kind of things or is it mostly you have to kind of tell them, can you steer them somewhere for anybody that finds it hard to have that eye-to-eye conversation? Yeah, speaking of eyes who are, if ever you're going to talk about sex to a teenager, do it in the car, do it when you're cooking, do it when you're not just sitting here like this.

That would be the worst thing to do. But there's that website called OMG, yes, oh my God, yes, which is actually, not for teenagers probably might be a bit much, but for anyone else who really doesn't understand how to masturbate, how to touch themselves. It's kind of like a self-help thing with lots of videos, full-on videos of real women, you know, not actors, masturbating, showing you their masturbatory technique. It's not salacious. It's just a really informative educational site. I would heartily, I should have shares in this because I recommend it all the time. That is absolutely brilliant. And there are lots of places where, I mean, there's almost so much information out there about sex now. The opposite to when I started out when there was nothing. But I think if you,

I'm trying to think of any other good sites, WebMD is quite good. I mean, just all the medical sites now have sex sections for them. But I would harshly recommend that. But the thing is, that's different about when we grew up to kids now, is they will have seen porn by the time they're 10. I mean, even little girls. This is, they will have seen corn. When you think about how protected we were. Yeah. We saw magazines, may. I remember finding the joy of sex in my sister's draw, you know, in looking at that and going, wow. I mean, they were like funny old things with men with hairy outfits. It was just ridiculous.

I remember finding the joy of sex diary at someone's house and each day had a different sexual position. And that's basically, that was the kind of beginning of my education. I thought this is hilarious. I was like, oh, wow, you can do that. Oh, wow, and that. Yeah, it's so different. And it's really not helping our young adults because I interviewed a girl recently about choking and the prevalence of that. And she said she was 23, very articulate.

And she said, you know, I feel like you guys got to grow up with, if you look at the songs of the generation, she said you guys grew up with like songs about love and happiness and they were all light and airy. We grew up with drill and rap and misogyny. and she thinks that now we are in an age of, you know, really toxic masculinity where she said masculinity before meant chivalrous and putting down a coat to walk across a puddle. And now it's, you know, the viler, the better, the more masculine you are. And she sees as a real, and choking's come from that where men feel like, you know, this is what's expected of them and this is how to be masculine.

I mean, how do we get from that, from that to that, really? But this is why it's even more important to talk to your kids about sex because if you don't talk to them about it, Andrew Tate will. You know, I mean, come on now. You've got to try and get that in because it's friends that you, you know, get most of your information from sex about really. So look at your kids' friendship group. Make sure that's good as much as you can influence it.

And, you know, you put in your odd bit. But I think the main thing for parents is to just if, so they know they can come to you. They know they can say, I'm really embarrassed about this, but, you know, this has happened. And to know that you're not going to overreact, you're not going to scold them, you're just going to listen and perhaps help if needed. So to be open and talk about it as often and as easily as you do, what did you have for breakfast, you know.

And to do that, say things like, you know, darling, I just read in the paper today or, you know, heard online that, you know, choking is a really prevalent thing. Is it happening at your school? Yeah. Do your kids talk to you about it? Yes, okay. So not specifically about it. about them just about general. It's general.

Maybe not choking. I might be a bit of start with, but it is. I feel like I hear about that on the grapevine a lot from other parents who are nervous about it or their daughters who have kind of mentioned it. Or somebody mentioning it to one of my daughters. It feels like it's around a lot. And this idea of a girl crying. in pain during sex or that somehow

upset is better than desire and it seems like such a weird world we're living in now. I mean the thing about choking it's interesting is that it's often sometimes it's not any men who ask for it, women ask for it too. And it's a...

But do you think that's because that was their first early experience of it Maybe it has become something that they think is normal. Yes. And the lower the self-esteem, the more likely they are to ask for it. Because they think that that's what men want. And it's so interesting about sex, isn't it? Because when I was starting out writing a sex column when I was in my 20s,

women were very, you know, I went for Cosmo and it was very much that we can have whatever we want and we can be whatever we want and we're not going to count out to men. Yet we were still very people-pleasy in bed. Still like that. Maybe certainly not like our mothers, but I feel like we were, I'm going to have an orgasm and you're going to give me one and, you know, this is how you do it. And I feel like we've now gone back to my mother, maybe not my mother's a not a good example, because she's quite sexual, but to where it was sort of lie back and hope they hit the spot. And there's less feedback now with women. They're still in that, you know, I want him to like me, so therefore I must do this in

bed. Forget what she wants. Actually, I'd quite like some moral sex or some direct clitor or stimulation or maybe we could invite a vibrator into bed with us. None of that, all about worshipping what the male wants in bed. And it's always been like that. And I thought this was the one thing that maybe we got rid of. But no. I think it's interesting that we haven't got anywhere. And I just heard you say, well, your mum quite enjoyed sex. And my mum enjoyed sex. And my mum was French. She was an alcoholic, but I think that just like was a side problem. But I saw her as being very liberated sexually. She loved her body. She loved having sex. She would talk about enjoying sex. So I always grew up thinking that it was something great, you know, that

we could enjoy and have fun with. And I, and I wonder if you and I, you and I, are, are not embarrassed about it being a lovely thing because of that. Yes. So it's up to us to be those mothers to our children. Yes, that's exactly. To help them enjoy their sex life without guilt. Completely. I mean, this is, this sort of,

and you've got to start doing it very, very early. I mean, the amount of mothers who do the complete opposite, they catch their kid. I mean, I have to say, once I was at a friend's house and she had a sofa with an arm and her little girl was probably about four, got on top of the sofa and started rubbing against it. And I was just saying, yeah, for you interested to see what happens now because I know this girl, women, very, very, very well.

And she just sort of looked at me and laughed and then the perfect reaction, she just went, does that feel nice, darling? And she went, yes, it does actually, my life is lovely. And she was like, well, that's great. But maybe next time, that's the sort of thing that you do in private. That was all she had to say about her. Now, if she'd gone to her, what are you doing? You know, why are you doing that? That's disgusting. Don't you do that? Don't you? You know, what do you think you're doing? How is that going to help? You know, that kid's going to go on and just think sex is dirty, sex is bad. I've just written a piece for the male online about Catholic religion and just, you know, very, very strict religions and how much they can ruin your sex life. Because if you're told that sex is bad and dirty from a young age, it's very, it's very hard to shake. And these women were like, intellectually, I knew from the age of, you know, 16 that it wasn't bad, but my body seems to have absorbed this message that it is. So it's very important to give the right signals very early on. I also know that an orgasm is so good for you for men and for women.

And that certainly for women, it relieves stress, anxiety, burns calories. it feels amazing. You feel fantastic afterwards. And yet there's so much like you said, shame built into society around more so the female orgasm than the male. Like, I feel like males kind of were congratulated or expected or, you know,

I think there's something about the fact that a man has to release or he gets blue balls, you know, that kind of, do you know, that kind of thing? like we don't have to, so why should we have the pleasure? And I've always felt quite angry about that. But I know you're quite interesting around we don't have to orgasm either of us when we have sex. Like we should maybe stop focusing on that so much. It's lovely if you do, but you don't have to.

It's quite interesting because on one hand you want the man or your partner, male or female or whatever they are, to want to give you pleasure and obviously the, well, it's not really obviously but one pinnacle of pleasure is an orgasm. But so you sort of want that. So the opposite, you don't want somebody who doesn't care less whether you have an orgasm or not.

It can go the opposite way and that men pressure women or women feel pressured by men to orgasm and it's almost like it's a, it's a sort of proof of their prowess, you know, I gave her an orgasm. And it's so funny because we've known since

share height, like what's that? A long, long time ago that women don't orgasm. Most women don't orgasm through penetrative sex. The clitoris is rather unhelpfully outside of the vagina so you have to have you know, extra indirect stimulation or direct stimulation of the clitoris. So

and most men, even I would say sexually savvy men are like, yeah, yeah, I knew that, I knew that. But not all women, right? And it's like, well, 80% of women, it's like, yeah, but I don't think I've ever been with one, really. So, you know, it's like, I just extraordinary. And women play along with the game.

They play along with this game. So of course that if you play along with the game and pretend that you have an orgasm through intercourse, you're not doing yourself a favour. You're certainly not doing the next person that comes along a favour. And then by the time you sort of, to have a real orgasm with somebody, you've got to teach them the technique that works for you.

It's generally during oral sex or with a vibrator or maybe using fingers, it's certainly generally not through intercourse. And the noises that you make and how you look when you were having a real orgasm is completely different than the one you've faked. So no wonder the poor bug is confused, you know, confused. Now wonder men are so confused by it all. I don't blame them. So we play this game and it just continues.

And it's, you know, women wouldn't need to fake orgasms if they weren't expected to have one. And men wouldn't expect women to have an orgasm if they knew how to actually give them one. So it's a bit of both of our faults, really. Have you ever thought or met men that would be prepared to let go of their orgasm? No. That's quite interesting, isn't it? But it's so easy. Honestly, I think whoever built our bodies must have been really worried about women enjoying sex,

which makes sense because of the procreation thing, doesn't it? Because if we enjoy sex as much as men, we would be running about populating the earth and women are there to have the babies and stay at home. Because if the clitoris was inside the vagina, we would be orgasming like that through intercourse, like men do. I mean, if we could have an orgasm as easily, women can orgasm easily if you know how to do it, but through intercourse, I mean, imagine what the world would be like.

We would both be having orgasms. Running off procreating and over the place. It's like, be amazing, wouldn't it? Yes. Just think how wonderful the world that would be. But we'd be having sex probably too often. There must be a reason. There must be an evolutionary reason why the clitoris is not inside the vagina.

There must be. But yes, men have sex so easily and orgasms, if you can have them so easily, are an amazing thing. Look at, you know, if somebody said to me, you're not allowed an orgasm with your vibrator, I wouldn't like it. But I have in my, I probably have, yes, I have met one or two men in the whole of my life. And I'm not talking about person. I'm just talking about letters, everything. And I get a lot who can't orgasm. I can

Who can't orgasm. Yeah, so. Yeah. So you can get many who find it very hard to orgasm. But I can't imagine a man who would be interested in having sex if there wasn't an orgasm at the end of it. So I have heard of men, young men, who can't orgasm, that's also becoming a thing.

Is that pornography, do you think? In what way can't they august? They just can't achieve orgasm. Can you become numb? from pornography. Oh yeah. To orgasm. You can become like,

it's not, it's sort of like desensitized. Desensitize. Yeah, they need more and more and more stark images and graphic images and then nothing does it for them. Yeah, you can, you can. I mean, porn can be an addiction.

Most men don't have an addiction to porn, by the way. Just watching porn a lot when you're young does not make you addicted to porn. The main addiction to porn is when you have a, sort of a disparate thing where like often people who are deeply religious who watch porn have a porn addiction, they don't watch it half as much as somebody who's not religious, but when they do, they feel terrible about themselves and it becomes this sort of toxic cycle. So that's more a definition of porn addiction than something.

You know, obviously somebody who watches it eight hours a day is addicted. And I heard a story about a man from a doctor who came to see him because his penis was just blistered and sore and he could not stop masturbating. That's that's a masturbation addiction. Okay, yeah. You know, when you're in pain, when you're masturbating, but you're still doing it. That's so great. But I don't know whether porn is quite the evil we make it out to be.

I think most men see porn for what it is. It's a, they don't take it seriously. It's a bit of entertainment. They like having an orgasm. It's quick. It's easy. What's wrong with it? You know, so long as it's not interfering with sex in real life.

Yeah. That's the way they think, right? I guess that's interesting, isn't it? Because people are often really down on pornography generally, aren't they? They're so... Yeah, I mean, there's obviously bad things with porn, but generally think in most relationships, and I don't understand why women get so funny about it.

I mean... When women would get funny about their partners watching porn, yeah. Yeah. I mean, pornography, him better going off and taking care of himself when he feels like sex and you don't, that's a terrific way to cope with, you know, mismatch libidoes or him just wanting sex when you don't. I mean, porn's a great way.

This is what I recommend to people, you know, if you feel like sex and your partner doesn't, go off and have sex with yourself. Why? And they worry because they think, oh, he's looking at this girl on the screen, she's nothing like me. Men change the way that, you know, the images that they look at,

you know, if you looked at them two seconds later, they'd be looking at some other girl. You know, he's got a different vision of somebody who wants to see when he's just about to ejaculate, then somebody wants to take home and meet his mother or be the mother of his children. It doesn't, it's sort of just mainly harmless

for most people. I think what's interesting that you touched on there was this idea of what happens when you want to have things and your partner doesn't and a mismatched libido that potentially at the beginning of your relationship was matched and then for ever reason, I mean lots of people

around our age now are you know 20, 30, 40 years into a marriage. And And, you know, you've got to keep. How do you keep a marriage, a light or on fire or full of desire? What keeps you together? You don't is the answer to that. And I think that if we kind of accept that we are, human beings are built to basically, you know,

there's no such thing as monogamy in the rule book of evolution. You know, there's no, there's a point to keeping you together for probably five years. And then after that, there's no point. So they're really not interested. Your body's not interested. And what happens at the beginning is that you're flooded. When you meet somebody and it's all new, you're flooded with all these sex and love hormones. And your brain goes crazy.

It's better than heroin. You know, it goes completely crazy. And you could be, you know, going out with Trump. You wouldn't know. It's just like you're completely under this intoxicated illusion. And then when they wear off, it can be anything from a month to nine months if you're lucky. Suddenly, then you see the person in front of you. And it's like, oh, God, you know, you've got orange hair.

Suddenly, and that's when you need technique to kick in and that's when people go, well, I'm with the wrong person. No, you're not. It's just that lovely rush of sex and love hormones has worn off. But then, you know, nature's clever and then you go into the cuddle stage and dopamine kicks in and then you have babies and all sorts of things. All sorts of things, keep you together in terms of love. But what we need for love and what we need for sex are two different things. So that sort of what we love about love is the security and contentment and snuggling up. watching Netflix and the predictability and the security. But what you need for sex and eroticism is danger and excitement and feeling vulnerable and

insecure and not knowing if they like you or not. So how do you keep the two tears? Most people choose love over sex because you can only have sex for so many hours of the day. So, you know, and then, and this is why, you know, the people who get on the best often have the least sex because they're too close. You need a bit of separation. Tracy, what if you want both?

I think that if you want both, you have to put a hell of a lot of effort into it. And the way to get both is to both want to do it, right? Number one, that is sometimes harder than you think, because you've grown up wanting sex. I've grown up wanting sex. So we're probably going to be the women who've gone through menopause and still want sex after menopause. Plenty of women get to menopause and go, you know what, I never really did like it. And now I've got a great excuse not to have it. So there's that sort of thing that goes on in long-term relationships. 30% of people, this is horrific, 30% of people who are in a long-term relationship

aren't having sex after two years. And we're talking about young people as well. People in their 30s and their 40s. They don't have it at all. They don't even have it bothered after two years. it's much more common than you think. I know that's extraordinary. That is extraordinary. I was like, really? But I know that that's true because I've talked to people of all ages.

And women are the ones that tend to go off, in off-sex and long-term relationships because what we were talking about earlier with how easy it is for men to orgasm and all they have to do is like, you know, put their penis inside the vagina, wiggle it around a bit and they have an orgasm, right? For women, women need,

interesting sex, erotic sex to stay interested. Otherwise, it's like, well, I often don't orgasms. So what really is in it for me other than, you know, sex? Desire isn't the only motivation for sex. It makes your partner happy and there's great health benefits, right? But they've got less motivation to have it. So women tend to go of sex earlier than men do. What constitutes erotic sex? Well, it's up to you. What you find erotic and where I find erotic would be different things. But it's sex that's not, I mean, most people have the same sex every single time in the same order they do, the same period of time. And it's just in it, and if you're lucky, it's efficient sex. You know, if you know the way to make your partner orgasm, it becomes, you do shorthand sex.

You just go cut out all the middlemen and just go straight for the things that you know are going to work. Very efficient, you know, you can both have an orgasm in five minutes, but it's not really that interesting. So, but that's better than nothing. I'd much prefer people still had sex. But what usually happens is you lose a bit of interest because all the hormones disappear. Other things come along. And the, you know, as you get older, your testosterone drops, your estrogen drops as a woman.

And it does in men as well. And the less you have sex, unless you want sex, and suddenly you're having no sex at all. And then it all becomes a bit awkward. And it's the sibling effect thing where it feels like you're having sex with your brother, you because you have done it for so long. That's happened to people. Of course. I know.

It's all the time. It happens all the time. We're best friends. Yeah. And most couples are best friends. So it's the only way I think that you can have hope of still having good sex is to really tap into the dark side. You know, that really, the stuff that you only told, you know, you sort of maybe that weird poor category that you. masturbate to or a fantasy that turns you on and you're like, Christ, I'm glad no one can read my

mind. Do you know that sort of weird shit that is your thing? If you can get to the point with your partner where you can tell them that stuff and they tell you that stuff, that's what kicks you past the darling, put the bins out, you know, I'm having sex with my brother type thing and puts you into, wow, you know, because you need something like that. That's why BDSM is actually very popular. Yeah. Because it gets you. Anything. that preps you out of that role. Like if you, if you're into bondage or dress up or, you know, you know, mild whipping or something, you're not going to do that in your, you know, casual clothes that you wear, watching this, you know, on the sofa. You're going to go and you're

going to put on a corset and you're going to get that whip and you're going to put on your high heels in. And all of this stuff puts you in the mood. It's all about triggers in the brain that go, aha, right. Okay. I know what's coming now. Like, you know, and so your body gets into it. But you've got to move out of that role that you're in most of the time of mother, of sister of, you know, like best friend and, you know, oh darling, you know, you're, you know, that cuddle mode and less of the dopamine and more of the testosterone and stuff. I'm just thinking about, you know, couples that have been together for a long time and how scary it is to talk fantasy for fear of being shamed again.

Yes. Because it's one thing to enjoy sex and everything, but then to talk about a fantasy where you're a bit like, I'm not sure how you're going to react to this. But I think, like maybe if one person is brave enough to do that,

the other person might then feel brave enough to come back. But what happens if they go, what are you talking about? Yeah, how would you... Well, it does happen. It does happen. And this is why I'm off to... and I don't know.

I mean, I know that that's the only way you're going to keep it going, but I also know that you, especially if you say you've got a fantasy about you come home and the workmen across the road, six of them all come in and ravish your own. So you've probably had this fantasy for five years before you end up telling your partner. Now, you've had five years to get used to this. They haven't. Right. Yeah.

So if you simply come in and say, actually, darling, I want to tell you my fantasy about the workman. see those weren't across the road. Well, I often imagine, he's like, oh my God, she thinks this is, this is what's going to happen. What she wants. This is what she wants, you know. And also, what does that mean? And so you've almost got to prepare the person.

You take baby steps. You don't come out with that fantasy. You would be leading up to things and saying, you know, to your partner, God, I feel like we've got in such a rut. Remember when we, in the beginning, we used to be really adventurous. Isn't there, you know, maybe we should go, remember that? to turn us on. Maybe we should try that. Little inch forward, inch forward. And then

then you can move yourselves along to go, God, have you ever thought about anything really weird? Do you have something that really turns you on? But you've never told anyone because it seems really weird. And you sort of don't give them the big thing. You give them a little thing. And that's

how it all, you know, comes out. But you've got to have a partner who's also good at talking about sex. Yes. Which is also difficult sometimes. I mean, I feel like it's also quite a good thing to say to somebody when you're just broaching the subject is that fantasy is called fantasy because it is

a fantasy and that if they do say something, don't worry you're not going to read that as them expecting it to actually happen in true life because those kind of things would be marriage ending if they happen in true life the whole reason why they're so erotic is because you know it's not going to happen. That's exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, you must say that. Yeah. It's exactly the first thing I say, if you go to share a fantasy, you've got to say what you want done with it. Do you want to role play it? Do you want to use it as titillation?

Or do you want a partner to surprise you with that sex worker and you have the threesome? You know, because don't let them know. They might surprise you with a sex worker and you end up with it. It's like, what is this going on? I mean, that's happened so many times. Yes.

It's not just the cliche, joky thing. But if you broach it beforehand, maybe somebody would want it. Like, you know, there's nothing wrong, I guess, with that. Like if you both... I mean, the other problem, I think, if you are in a relationship where one person is trying to reach you, as a couple, if there's couples watching this and someone's broaching it,

then know that they want to improve or connect with you on some level. And I always think if you don't try and reach out connect, then if someone else connects with them on the outside, they're in danger. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That if you love somebody, it's really worth trying to stick close in that way. And if somebody, I mean, it's really hard, even somebody who's really good at talking about sex, you are vulnerable when you're saying to your partner, I'd like to have sex more often.

And actually, I have this thing I wish, you know, would you mind doing for me or whatever? I mean, that's, you know, they risk ridicule being judged. They risk, you know, that person going down the pub and telling their mates or, you know, you turn your girlfriends or whatever. And it's a highly vulnerable moment. So even if somebody, you part to suggest something that you think, what the hell, I have no interest in that ever, don't react like that. Yes. Never react like that.

Just say, wow, that's really brave of you to tell me that. And, you know, I'm not quite sure whether that's my thing. but I'll tell you what, let's try it if you would be prepared to. Or how about, you know, is there anything, how about we role play it? How about we, I've always wanted to do this. Are you interested in this? If you're going to say no, you say, I'm not interested in that, but how about this? Because then it's not a rejection.

Yes. But you've got to offer something else up or else, you know. And I'm also a great believer in low effort sex and no effort sex. Because honestly, if you have a reason that you really don't want sex, and maybe your partner's got a way higher libido or your postmenopausal and I mean, plenty of women would love to still have sex and they literally can't

because of, you know, painful sex or dry vaginas or just their desires just gone through the floor. So that doesn't mean that you can't be sexual with your partner. So if your partner, say I don't ever want sex again and my husband says to me, right, what are we going to do? You don't want to have sex. You can say, okay, well, I don't necessarily want to have integrated. course, but you could give me oral sex. I could give you oral sex. You could not touch me in the

slightest, but I could give you pleasure. Yeah, pleasure. Or I could even watch you give yourself pleasure. There are ways to be sexual without actually putting yourself out in the slightest. And I think that that's what we need to embrace more. I mean, self-pleasure is amazing and how people don't do that enough really. Like you think, God, if you just self-pleasured in front of each other, it's very erotic, you know, if you talk to each other and say, you know, if you talk to each other and say how gorgeous you think each other look or I love what you just did you just said oh wow when you were saying if you if you're a bit like or not on your nelly about the fact that they just told you but you go well that was really brave to congratulate the person that's really

stuck you know put themselves out there by telling you something that you can see they're nervous about telling you rather than shaming them saying well done well thank you yeah thank you for trusting me with that. Yeah. I appreciate that so much. Yeah. Because that's exactly, I mean, that's exactly. Intimacy, isn't it?

And I tell you who's really bad at this, this is men to women. When women suggest something that they want to try, that's a little bit out there, it's like, number one, who've you done this with them? Who've you done this with them? Oh, God. I mean, so there's that. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Or there's, well, you know, and especially if they're more adventurous than they are, then they feel, because it's the man that should be more. adventurous. So then they feel like, you know, God, she's obviously done more than I have. And so then they'll, you know, how many lovers have you had and, you know, all this sort of stuff? It's a really bad thing to do. It's a really bad thing to do. It takes a lot of guts to sort of say what you want in bed to even just say, you know, can you move your head there or put your finger there or whatever. I mean, actually, eating someone who meets your sexual desire is quite.

important but like you said your sexual desire can match at the beginning but you know after you've had kids or and you've mentioned a couple of times about dry vaginas and painful sex after after menopause and I'd like to just put my hand up and say I take vaginal estrogen and when I started taking hormone replacement therapy I was 43 and I didn't really have vaginal atrophy then which is when you're just in case people watching listening don't know. It's when your vagina gets drier. But I did get it kind of in my early 50s and started using vaginal estrogen and it has revolutionized my whole life. Because I felt like my vagina was getting shorter. Yeah, I know. And it was painful and it was, I got to

even masturbating or using a toy or something like that just wasn't it wasn't the same anyway vagina Eastergen has reopened my shop and it has been my vagina feels like it used to it's comfortable I enjoy sex again I find orgasming easier because I'm lubricated down there

it's all better so I just wanted to say that as a point of thing. Yeah, I agree. But also for STIs, for any kind of infections, because you're lubricated more, you don't get so many. There are so many benefits to it,

and go and see a menopause specialist if you're nervous about it or a doctor, but it is safe. They now know that vaginal estrogen, even if you don't want to take HRT, women in their 80s, 90s can start taking vaginal estrogen. It is, amazing medicine.

Yeah, because it's typical, so it's only on the area. But I think that does make a huge difference. But I also think, I mean, no sane woman over the age of 40 should have sex without Loub. Yeah. I mean, and that was the other thing I was going to say was this is something I was shocked about, is that some men think that Loub is somehow cheating and women have to hide the lube because, like, what's wrong with, you know, what does that mean I don't turn you on?

Like, oh, for God's sake, so many things affect vaginal lubrication. You can have drunk too much alcohol. You can be dehydrated. It can be the time of the month. It can be menopause. It can be so many things. You know, and the same things that affect how much semen they produce. But it's okay for them.

But for some reason, it's a big insult for you to have to use lube. It is absolutely pathetic. I hadn't thought about that, that men create less or more semen, but we don't go. Oh, you didn't produce enough of that. Like, can you imagine men going off and secretly kind of getting more semen or something inside their penis so they can look like they ejaculated enough so that we don't shame them about it? It is. I had never thought about that.

Yeah. That is mad. It is completely mad. That somehow our wetness is an indicator of how hot they are. Yeah. Oh, my God. In reverse, this women are guilty. of thinking how hard he is is an indicator of how much he fancies them.

Oh, right, yeah. And so we're just as bad at that. So if ever you're with a man who gets an erection problem, please just be kind and just go, oh, well, it happens to me, happens to everybody, you know, like, and then good, you can pleasure me now. You know, give me a bit more old sex. I'm sure that'll fix things. Just keep it like, because honestly, the amount of men who've ended up completely not, you know,

with ED problems for the rest of their life because a woman or a male person, partner has shamed them. They're like, oh my God, and they're anxious the next time. And of course, then, of course, the minute you're anxious, penises don't want to know. It just, you set up, and then it happens again, and then it's even more psychological, and it just is terrible. All for one thing, I mean, we're not machines. We are human beings. Sometimes his penis isn't going to work. Sometimes your vagina's not going to lubricate. Sometimes you'll have an orgasm. Sometimes you won't. It's just normal. Yeah, normal.

You know, it's interesting. I probably have been guilty of that. when I was younger that it was me in some way not. Yeah. That's quite interesting that. Yeah. You think... I'd never thought it's not fancy me. That is basically what happens the other way around. And do you know what? Often men... How? Often men... Of course. Especially when they're younger, have...

Can't get an erection because they fancy the girl too much. They're like, oh my God. You know, this is really important. This is really important. Christ's sake, you know, make sure you work. And then, you know, they're the girl. And these poor girls who are, you know, who, you know, who, you know, you don't think of it, looking at it from that, through that lens, they're thinking, oh my God, everyone keeps telling me I'm really pretty and hot, but why don't men think so?

Because whenever I go with the guy, you can't get in reaction. It's because you're almost too hot in some ways. So you should never, ever take it personally. For either way. No. Men or women, that's really interesting. They aren't indicators. You can be as turned on, more turned on than you've ever been in your entire life

and still not be wet. You can be as turned on, you know, he could be as turned on by you more than any other female has ever seen and still not be hard. There are so many other indicators. They are not the indicator that we should, you know, they're not as the sort of be all and end all as we think they are, particularly past a certain age for men and women. But even before that, even before that.

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SuvW, German engineered for all. In terms of desire, I always think desire is such a wonderful thing. And I think in a long-time relationship, if you've been with somebody for a very long, time, it can get to the stage where it's like, are we going to shag tonight? You know, it's like that, it's like, you know, you're talking about taking out the bins and, you know, doing, and sort of while you're cleaning up dinner, it's like, shall we shag tonight? And that's, that's what it gets down to. Yeah, that's what it gets down to. And I interviewed Paul Brunson, you know, Paul Brunson, and he was talking about four play starts straight after the last time you had

sex. And I love that idea. So what do you think, because I'd like to hear this for men and for women, what do you think of the things that spark desire in women? I think, I think women are more turned on by words. And I mean, the big thing now is audio porn. Have you ever listened to audio porn? No. Audio porn has completely come into its own now. And so, You can have, there's so much out there. You say generally you, you, you can either have somebody reading a, it's all somebody reading dirty stories in other ways. Yeah.

You can get classic ones. You can get really filthy ones. You can get, did you, um, listen to that podcast, Dirty Diana with Demi Moore? No. Oh, my God, you've got to listen to it. Ah, it's, what? It was made during COVID. Now, this is a sign that we have, like, got a little bit better about sex.

So it's Klaus Bang, Demi Moore. They're the two main characters. And it's all about this. Demi Moore plays this woman called Diana. And she records audio porn. And she's making a fortune on the side, but her husband doesn't know. And at the beginning of each episode, she got all these famous people, women, to talk about their... So they come in and they tell Demi Moore their fantasy and she records it for this audio porn channel that she does. And all these quite famous actresses are talking about quite explicit fantasies.

and then men or women pay to listen to this. But it's not just the podcast. I mean, this is a fictitious thing, obviously. But there is tons of audio porn out there. Tons and tons of it. If you look up audio porn, and you can, it's brilliant. You can look up audio porn. Yeah, just look up audio porn.

You go into it. There's millions and millions of ones to choose from. But there's probably about, I've done lots of stuff on this on my website, which is Tracycox.com. But how it's great, how it's great, is that you can, Because when you said what turns women on, words and stories turn women on. Have your earphones in, be listening to audio porn, and he could be giving your old sex and you're in a completely different world. So that, wow.

With the person, which is nothing against the person. But, you know, the whole point of monogamy and making it good is that, you know, it's the monotony of monogamy in a way. Any way that can take you out of that is good. 80% of people fantasize about other people when they're having sex with their partner that they've been with forever. it's not that the partner's not sexy or fantastic. You've just slept with them too many times and habituations kicked in. Or you can have the audio porn playing so he can listen to it as well and that's your backdrop. So it's an alternative to looking at porn, which is often what couples do, which kind of does it for him more than her most of the time.

Though there's great porn for women. So I would say that's one area that women could explore. Look at the 50 Shays phenomenon. Oh, that was extraordinary. The books were... Anyway, you might... No, I just wanted to say something. So I was reading 50 Shays of Grey.

A girlfriend and mine told me about it. I was getting on a flight. She said, buy it before you get on the flight. Read it on the flight. I was reading it on the flight. And I was like, because obviously I'm Davina McCall, so I was like, I'm reading this book and people are looking at me

and I kept like putting the book down like that. So when people walk past my seat... They couldn't see. They couldn't see what I was reading. And then I lifted it up. And then finally an air stewardess saw. She was coming around and she saw and she looked at me and I went like that. And then she went like, I've read it.

Like, it's amazing. I was like, oh, it's amazing. But you know what? It was. Yeah. Did you ever read Nancy Friday? Yes. I mean, Nancy Friday was the first.

They were fantastic. Now, so Nancy Friday is real women. I've got goosebumps from saying Nancy Friday. That's how good it was. She, because she got women around the world to write in their. fantasies and they she didn't edit them very much and they were hot hot and explicit and shocking and it completely it completely got rid of that image that women want romantic sex on a beach you know like with the wind and the and the waves crashing and no they don't they want absolutely shocking explicit

way more explicit than men yeah she was the first one who did that and and yeah 50 shades but what I found interesting about 50 shades there are millions of 50 shades books out there but it just some, it's all word of mouth and how things spread. But what 50 Shades did, which I thought was quite interesting, because around that time, I'd go to places or dinner parties and the people would go, oh, sex, darling, who has sex? We don't have sex, do you? And it was almost like a boast to not have sex. And then that happened. And women who hadn't felt like sex in decades, suddenly, I remember being on holiday once this woman said to me, God, I picked up 50 Shades. And I, she said, I actually woke my partner up at 3 o'clock in the morning.

We had had sex for like 10 years and said, can you have sex? And he was like, what? Okay. But because of that book. So whatever you think about the books, it doesn't matter. It started this revolution for women because it's interesting sex. It's naughty sex. It's forbidden sex.

It's like stuff that's not this treating. I mean, I'm sorry, but every Valentine's Day and people put rose pedals on the bed, please. We don't do Valentine's Day. It'd be like a bucket of cold water for me. I don't want romantic. Every day is Valentine's Day. Oh. Like every day is like a, like, I love you.

Like, I don't need to have one day. Sex should be a bit dirty, not romantic and fucking. And it's like, say, you have to, like, if you're going to do it one day, it's got to be this day. It's like, no, I'm not going to do it when you tell me. I don't know. There's an argument for scheduled sex. Oh, yes. Yeah.

So you're, so this is interesting. Hmm. Because, obviously, in a long-term relationship, like you said, it's quite easy. for it to go a month and then after a month, difficult. Difficult to come back from that. How do you instigate? How do you instigate again?

How do you, you know, it's, it gets, after that becomes awkward. Yeah. How do you... There's bed, I think, I'm trying to think was it... I think any couple who hasn't had sex for three years, unless you have a massive discussion, you are never having sex again. Right.

That's just... Okay, that's it. That's just it. Yeah. So I've talked about this before. Yeah. And there was a bit of an uproar. And I'd like to apologise now to anybody that's listening because I think I was wrong.

That I said, if you are with somebody and you are not having sex, I would not count that as a relationship because I would be like, but sex is part of the relationship. That is what makes you boyfriend and girlfriend. Because in the back of my head, I'm thinking that your partner might go off and have their head turned by somebody who does want to. have sex or you might, you're on very shaky ground. But lots of people were quite upset about that because they are, yes, well then I feel like I did learn something. Yeah, yeah, it's actually not true. There are sexless relationships and sexist relationships and some sexist relationships when one partner desperately wants sex and the other one doesn't. That is a recipe for disaster and no one's happy. Okay. But you can get relationships where couples just naturally evolved, then just maybe couples are just

not that interested in it anyway. At all. At all? With anybody. No. Or they've done, I mean, I know couples that have had the best sex ever and they talk about, God, remember when we used to do that, but they've almost had so much sex at the start that they felt like, well, we've done all that now.

We're on a different phase now. We're not interested, but it's just sort of not important anymore. So if there's nothing wrong with having no sex in your relationship, so long as you're both happy with having no sex in your relationship. And so long as the affection doesn't stop, like if you're really cuddly, you kiss a lot, you know, your affectionate, you're playful, you're intimate, then it's not the same as just having a friend.

That's not roommate, living as roommates. But if you've got one person who desperately wants sex and the other one doesn't, and the other one who doesn't want sex is saying you have to stay faithful to me, that's not fair. That's not fair and that's completely a different thing. But I mean, when I was younger, I used to think that. I used to think, God,

you know, why, what sort of relationship is that? But there are plenty of people. When I wrote my recent book, well, not that recent, but Great Sex Starts at 50, I interviewed lots of, she's got it, lots of my friends about their sex lives. I thought I'll start with them. And I did also probably 2,000 women and men.

Wow. Interesting. People that I know pretty well, right, not my core, group of friends, but my people I know pretty well who haven't had sex in years. You would never tell. You would, and sort of people who you think, who talk the talk, men, who just,

they're the ones that are not interested. Not the women. They're the ones that are not interested. Always the sort of way, isn't it? The people who are the boasty ones down the pub are the ones that aren't having sex and the people who are quiet usually are. But the amount of couples who have been together for a long,

long time who were just really not fussed about it. And the ones who were the less, the most comfortable with it had had good sex at the start. I think if you know that it's there, if both of you, and that's the other thing. If you're going to not have sex, you don't ever want to say, we're never going to have sex again. You want to leave it open so that, because sometimes something can happen in somebody's life most often when they do fancy someone outside the relationship. and it gives them the spark, they don't want to cheat, but suddenly they do want to have sex again. So you need to be able to be open to that as well.

You know, so you never say never. But I think so long as you have the conversation, but what you cannot do, you mustn't do, is just take it off the table and don't talk about it. And so many people do that. So then you don't know if your partner is really happy about it. And, you know, and they don't know if you're really happy about it. So then both of you are slightly.

nervous thinking, well, is somebody else going to come along? Because of course you're going to be more right for an affair if you're wanting sex and you're not having sex. Of course you are. So what would be the reason for scheduling sex? Like surely it would just happen if both of you were interested. So what? Okay, go on, tell me. Right. Of course it doesn't. It happens in the beginning, right? But that whole spontaneous sex thing, it happens in the beginning because it's fueled by hormones, habituation sets in very, very fast. Within two years, your body goes, well, I'm not going to get spontaneously turned on by you because I've done you hundreds of times. It just is the way the human brain works. It makes it, because otherwise, if we were suddenly so

excited by things all the time, we'd be exhausted in life. So it happens with everything, not just sex. So what happens after that is that if both of you get like that, the more you have sex, the more you want it because your body remembers it, right? The more orgasms you have, the more your body is going to go, hang on a minute, you haven't had an orgasm for a while. So the idea is to make sex a habit. So you can do that by going, I mean, my partner and I used to have like Sunday sex and we'd have this, we knew that sex was, like Sundays was sex day and it would be like, great, we got sex day. But you wouldn't just do the same thing. You had to come up with an idea of something different that you would do. And it'd be your turn one week and their turn another day. Oh, that's a great

idea. Yes. You can't just say, we have to have sex enough. 10 o'clock and we're going to have the same sex we've had for the last 50 years. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. But if it's a bit of a playful thing and it's like, you know, okay, well, this week we're going to do this and, you know, you can take it to, you could be a tiny little thing or it could be something big where you have to plan for it or it's up to you. But it's, you know, people rattle on about spontaneous sex, la, la, la. Anticipation is just as good. It's just as good. And if there's one myth that derives that drives me insane.

It's that we had so much spontaneous sex at the start. We never planned anything. We never planned sex. You plan sex more at the start than you do it any other time. What am I going to wear? What, you know, what we're going to do? You change the bedland. You look at your underwear.

You think about what trick you're going to do. You know, you pick the restaurant. Lightings, music. Exactly. Thank you. And the other thing we need to talk about is spontaneous versus responsive sex desire and how we desire sex. Oh yes, so what do you mean by that?

So spontaneous sex drive is two-thirds of men where it's like nothing particularly happens but it's like I feel like sex right now. So these girl walk past I feel like sex or looking at your legs feel like sex, right? A gay friend of mine, I thought this was so good. I said, so what's it like being gay? Like, you're just for the sex drive and everything.

And he went, basically, sex is my screensaver. So when his computer in his head just switches to kind of it's been dead for three minutes. The screensaver comes on and it's like rabbit sex. And I was like, oh, I completely get that. Yes. He'll just be sitting there for three. He was 27.

He was 27. Game out of 27. I'm going to collect a game out of 27. Yeah, yeah. Because I reckon they're having the most fun. Amazing. But that's true. That's true.

So spontaneous sex is just out of the blue feeling like sex, right? Responsive sex is, I don't really feel like sex at all. but if somebody touches me in the right way and I start having sex, suddenly I'm in the mood and women are two-thirds of women are responsive and this is where people get all confused about sex because women think,

I don't have a sex drive at all because I never spontaneously feel like sex. Sometimes I quite like sex once we start going but I never spontaneously feel like it so therefore I have no sex drive. No, you have a different sex drive. It's completely different. And also if men understand,

at that. Because men shouldn't be insulted if women don't want sex spontaneously because that's not the way they work. We're not made like that biologically. We're not made like that biologically. So if you could have a kind of agreement where you could start having sex if she was up for it and then maybe

after 10 minutes, five minutes, whatever you want to put on it, if she says, you know what, it's still not working for me, then it would be fine and he can masturbate in front of you or go off and whatever. Then that would work a lot better. The way that men initiate sex, pretty much guarantees that women say no all the time because it's they know they don't understand

that or you know what get you know if your partner knows that you're you've got responsive desire they would you know they could say well what what do you need to get in the mood so they you know run a bath talk to me yes you know give me a glass of white so i've got something interesting to ask you have you ever heard about the five love languages yeah have you heard about that book and it's... I've been around ever and ever. So I did the love languages test.

I mean, there's no guessing what my primary love language is. Obviously, it's touch. Yeah. And then it's acts of service and then it's words of affirmation in that order. So if I get touched

six or seven times a day and I just mean like an affirmative knee rub, shoulder rub, face stroke, something, I feel loved. Yeah. So that's quite interesting. Yeah.

And if, say, we do something like a clean-up and he helps me and that turns me on, like I feel loved, if you know what I mean. So all of those things are like foreplay for me. Yeah. And you saying running a bath, that's an act of service. Yeah. That's saying like, I've been a bath, shall we have a bath together? That's like, definitely.

You know what I mean? I feel so cherished. And I was thought that acts of the love languages were a complete tosh. And then when I did it, I thought, oh, God, actually I think that does speak to me. And I also thought, sorry, but if anybody's watching this is quite good for Mother's Day, as a child, if you know your mother's primary love language, it's touch, you know, you say, I'm going to give you a hug every day for the next year. Yeah.

Oh, my God, that would be the greatest thing. I don't need gifts. I just need hug cuddles from my kids. people are a mix, a good mix and sort of try and think that they should be one of those things sometimes? Yeah, I mean, I know that I'm a mix of words of affirmation, acts of service and touch. But if you, yeah, so if you... Well, actually, some people don't like the touch bit, do they? Yes, I'm a touch person. Yeah. And words are my... I like words, yeah.

And if you're with a touch person. So I know a couple who, um, one is touch, one isn't. and I'm worried about them because he does the five touchy things every day because that's what he needs to do to feel but she's like ugh stop stop pouring me then you think oh that's not going to work

so actually it is quite good if you're on the same page of course yeah yeah it is I was just thinking and I know some people like that and it is all words and you know like if you want a big long like when I write cards to people they're like, I'm writing all out first and I get it all completely perfect.

And then I've got a friend of mine who just writes, dear Tracy, love Claire. And I'm like, thanks Claire. You've put a lot of thought into that. And we laugh, you know, because I'll write her love letters basically. And we laugh about it. So then it is deal with her. That's good. But we deal with it.

Yeah. If you're in a romantic relationship, that would piss me off a lot if my partner didn't. So he knows. So he has to spend ages trying to write out exactly the. But he also loves words. So we are very similar in our love. And you're well-matched. Yeah, we are very well-matched.

How long have you two been together? 12 years. Wow, great. Well, great. Well done. Yeah. How nice. So second marriages for both of us. Yeah.

I'd love to talk to you. Are you married to your book? No, I'm not. No. But I would, I'd love to talk to you about second time round. And I'm in fact, maybe now is a good time, actually, that lots of people at our age, when they have been in long relationships or for whatever reason

they feel like they've come to the end of the road and they decide to move on to a different relationship. It can be, as you said, you know, 50, great sex after 50. This is a time when you feel amazing as an older woman, more confident,

more comfortable in your own skin. Talk me through any couples that you've met that are second time rounders and what it's like? I think that for women particularly, well, it's much easier to have great sex after 50 if you're going to be with someone new. Let's put it that way. I think that if you've been with the same person

in the whole of your life and you hit 50 and you get all those sort of problems and it cannot be the best time of your life, you can get past it and suddenly feel liberated. I think with age, women get better with age. They often get more confident, women, but some women get a lot more confident. They stop doing the people pleasing in bed. They stop worrying about diving the perfect body. They think, you know, actually, do you know, I've always

wanted to go to a sex club and I never have. They get braver. And those are the women that end up having great sex. But often what can happen is that they're in the same relationship and the men tend to get more conservative as they get older. Women can often get less conservative. So the how's you sort of going like this. So often that can be, you know, the motivation. People think women aren't interested in sex, they are. And lots of women leave their partners, you know, at the age of 50 or, you know, around that age because they want to have adventures.

They might be sex adventures. They might be travel adventures. They just want to have adventures. And if your partner's not going to come with you, you end up leaving the relationship and doing them on your own. And, you know, women post 50, I mean, this is why Mrs. Robinson's always being, you know, women over 50, especially on dating sites, end up with younger men. Younger men are extremely interested in older women because they're not needy.

They know what they're doing. They're, you know, they're not freaked by penises that don't get erect. They are prepared to ask for what they want. They make better lovers. So it's totally possible to have great sex after 50. And for lots of women, I think you get to that age where you worry far less about what people think, don't you? And you're prepared to, I think men have always been very good. hence the gay men, why they have such great sex is because they will,

they'll move each other around. You know, if it's not working for them, they just say, that's not working. Go here, do this. Can you do that for me? Women are like, you know, no, we're just like, just lie here and maybe he'll hit the spot eventually or, you know, too scared to do anything, too, don't want to hurt anyone. Never, they don't, they wait for someone to give them an orgasm. They don't take an orgasm.

Yes. And once you're past 50, you take them. You direct the show. You do, you know, all this sort of stuff that you should have been doing all along. You become more male. It's good to be selfish in bed. It really is. It gets you satisfaction.

And a lot of the satisfaction that people get from sex is seeing their partner, you know, really turned on and aroused, isn't it? I mean, even if you don't necessarily want an orgasm, it's lovely pleasing your partner. If you still feel that way about them and want to please love them enough. to want to deliver a great moment for them. And that would make you feel good as well. I think what is also interesting is this feels like there is a big boom in non-monogamous, well, omen, I guess you call them polyamory. Polyamory.

And I wonder if you're seeing that in the over-50s as well. younger people. Yes, I mean, I feel like I can see it in younger people, definitely. But is that something that you see it or not so much? No, not so much. More, I think because we've been brought up with monogamy, serial monogamous, most of us are supermonogamous and that continues on. They might have lots of different lovers and sort of go down that route.

But not so much that I'm going to be, have a primary relationship and also see people on the side. But really strong in 30-year-old women. Very, very strong. late 20s, early 30s, and it's the women that are more interested than the men of voters. It worked. I've never been able to do it because I'm so jealous. Yes, I don't know how that would work. Because you have to be one of those rare people.

Well, you have to sort of, I mean, so look, if I was going to invent a model that would keep everybody happy, if you could do it, that would be the way to do it because you'd have people get together in the beginning, have all this great sex, all the sex hormones, you know. la la la and then they move into the comfort stage and there's something lovely about that as well there's a lot lovely about that that's why we stay and you have children and you do all that sort of stuff but the hot sex that your body desires is pretty hard to get with the person you've had sex with the whole of your life so the best way the easiest way to get those sex and love hormones come flying back is to have sex with somebody else it's it's the lazy way but it's an easiest way

so if you are able to sort of cordon off your primary relationship and say okay so The love's going to be, well, actually, it's not even, sometimes people say, yeah, you can love lots of people. But the standard polyamory at this point would be that you love one person and then you go off and have sex with the people with rules. There's always rules. It might be no one in our friendship group or no one, it might not be, you're not allowed to do it twice. It might be or you might be able to have a full, full on relationship with somebody else. You might be able to marry some, you know, we can't marry two people, but have a, you know, a serious. A serious relationship.

So there are various ways that it works, but generally it's that you have the love relationship and then you each go off and have sex separately with other people. And then there's hot wifing, which is hot wifing is, well, where interesting. It's so rife now. So hot wifing is where you're in a relationship with your generally married and your husband wants you to go off and have sex with other men, right? And you then, he will either come and be there and watch it, you know, through a, you know, watch a video of it, be or be involved in the planning of it.

Or just get off on the thought of, you know, her with somebody else. And women, understandably, get very insulted if their partner wants to do this. Yeah. Because it's like, well, why would you want to share me with somebody else? Don't you love me? It's got nothing to do with love. There's so many theories on why it's become so prevalent. They think it's because, I mean, for women who do it, it's often that sort of, well, if one man desires me, that's great.

But if he can see all these other men, you know, especially if you put them up on sites and that's part of the turn on is him watching all these men respond to want to have sex with his wife that he's got, you know. So it makes its reflected glory a little bit. They also think, Justin Lee Miller thinks it's to do with sort of eroticizing this fear that she might cheat on you. So if you turn it into something that you're kind of in control of it becomes easier to handle, there's all sorts of things. But oh my God, it is so common. There's hot-wifing. And even in older couples, or is it still again?

Yes. And swinging has become way more popular. What's the actual definition of swinging then? Well, swinging is that you're doing it in front of each other. I mean, actually not necessarily. You can have open, swing and clothes swing. So you could go into a swingers club and you get a bit where you might go off into a separate room and they might go off into a separate room and or you might have sex with other people.

But or it will be couples having sex together. Yeah. Or in the same room as other people. Yeah. Or but not necessarily because you can also be a swinger and just be into threesome. I know lots of couples who will hire a sex worker and, you know, she'll sleep with a woman and he'll watch or something like that. So that's officially swinging as well. It's inviting other people into your bed with consent. With consent. So there is lots. So in terms of the polyamory, I think the older people are doing more of the hot wiping and the swinging and not the you can go out and do things on your own without me having any control. I think it's, I think it's probably trickier to let your partner go off into the world and have sex with people that you don't know anything about. Yeah. Then it is to say, okay, well,

I know you're going to be with David, hot David tonight because I've seen it. And I know where he is and I know what you're going to be doing. Then it is polyamory. is riskier because you could fall in love. I mean, you could fall in love with anyone doing anything, but to me that's riskier. So I think the older people are doing more of the swinging and the you know, and I think

I wouldn't be into swinging or anything like that because again, I'm too jealous. Those kind of evenings you know, feel like you know, those kind of events are all over the place. Yeah. And they're really good because even if you're not interested

in, like Miles and I are the most jealous people in the world. And we discussed going to something like that because I got asked to go for a professional reason. And I said, well, I'll go if you go. And you could see he was, but I know what would happen is that we'd go and he'd be looking at somebody. You'd see the, I know him well enough to know, and he knows me well enough. And then you'd both be like, shit, he's looking at her and she's looking, and then you'd end up having a drink and it would be all over. So we know each other well enough to not do that. But if you can, go and just look. and you're not jealous types.

Then you've got all this erotica. You can role play it later on when it's just the two of you without ever participating. I mean, I think what is worth saying is you can have a very big conversation before you leave home. Like, and say, okay, what are your hard boundaries?

Yeah. What would you struggle with? What do you really not want me to do? Yeah. If you ever want to go somewhere like that again in the future, you go, do you know what? I couldn't handle you. it if you looked at somebody and I thought you fancied them and they go, okay, I won't do that.

And then they go, well, I wouldn't really like it if you did that either and go, right, okay, well, we won't do that. We won't touch anybody else. We won't be intimate with anybody else, but we'll go and just walk around and have a dance and, you know, yeah, that's right. I think, like, if you were really boundered about it and you both observed each other's boundaries. And you didn't have a drink.

And you were completely sober and you set some rules. Some people, well, the sort of person who's not going to function in that environment would never go anywhere. They would be horrified at the thought of you even suggesting it. But I think things like that, you know, like are even going to Sexpo or, you know, things like, you know, those places where they're, you know, like sex exhibit, like the home exhibition, you have a sex exhibition. And you go and you can buy vibrators and you can, you know, and there is always sexy people walking around. And when I, because I did arrange, we still do arrange with Love Honey for sex products. And they used to send me all around the world. We went to one a Sexpo in Berlin.

Holy, holy, oh. They're like people leading people around on dog collars. And there's people having sex, live sex. And, I mean, that's a hell of a, that's a. In Berlin. In Berlin, yeah. Yeah, it's not. I mean, the Germans are they're pretty open.

Like years ahead of us in terms of. Yeah. Always have been. You know. Very. It's catenaded. All you're all. All the Europeans are way more open than us.

We would never do anything like that. It would freak everybody out, wouldn't it? Brits are better than Americans, though. Yes, we are, definitely. They are. And Australians are a little bit better than the British, in terms of openness about sex. But, yeah, they know they are.

But just a sexy environment, or even just go to a bar. I mean, that whole cliché thing about pretend to pick each other up in a bar, which I think I would just laugh my head all. But lots of couples really like doing stuff like that. They do. Or just like going out and being in a sexy environment then coming home. Like, you don't, the last thing you want to do is just stay at home all the time and never do anything new.

Yes. Because, you know, if you want to do something new in bed, go out and do something new in life and just get that part of your personality working. Just do new things. You were talking about Loub earlier. And I know that obviously for vaginas, you really do have to be careful about what you let go in there. and getting infections or, you know, urine infections or anything like that. What do you think works the best in terms of a lube for women? Water-based, oil-based, like what kind of?

Water-based, not oil-based. But I would go for, as well as a lube, I would use a vaginal moisturiser as well, which are two different things. One, vagina and moisturiser are things like replens, where you put it in twice a week, two or three times a week, just keeps everything nice and moist. A bit like the way your vagina estrogen works

and they work very well together. Just so people know, you can not have an applicator or you can just use your finger and you just get it as far as you can and it just sticks to the wall of your vagina and melts. Yeah, you can put it in outside of the times

that you would have sex. But vagina moisturises great. Viginal topical estrogen, great. HRT is really good as well if you can take it. people can more so than you think. And things like if you're going through a period where you're not having sex, what's really good to do is if you've got a vibrator that you would insert to just, or you can buy what's called dilators, which are just little dildos, really. And you put

estrogen on the top of it, estrogen cream, and you sort of twirl it one way 20 times, twirl it 20 times the other way. It keeps your vagina nice and moist and used to having things in it. So if you're going through a period where, especially if you're older, say your husband or your partner, you know, works away or you're just not going to have sex for a period of time, which can happen as you get older for many reasons. Just keep doing that. Keeps everything nice and healthy. Because what you don't want is if you go through menopause and you're not having sex and you're not noticing much, especially if you're not having sex, I mean, I'm always aware of my vagina. I don't know what always have been. And but some women are like,

oh my God, I went to get a smear and suddenly they couldn't insert the speculum. And it's like, okay. Yes, we hear that a lot. A lot. Yeah. And that's because they haven't had sex. And so they haven't inserted anything. They don't look.

They don't get any symptoms. So next thing you know, it literally can grow over. And you need to be able to get into your body. Yes. So it's, yeah, for safety reasons for health and things like that. So another thing that no one talks about is something called vaginal sclerosis. Yes. I've.

I bought that. people. It's not a great thing to have, can I tell you. Yeah. So what is it? It's a, I think it's like a, I don't exactly know, it's a skin infection that gets into the skin of the vagina. And what it does is it, so you've got a nice healthy vagina, you know, with the vulva and

you've got, and everything's all plumped up and together. And it makes the skin collapse. So everything kind of collapses. And what, what, and then the skin gets all like, you know, confused or what it's supposed to do. So it sticks together where it's not supposed to. And it. And it's just a mess.

And you can think, oh, it's just menopause. Oh, it's just a dry vagina. Oh, I know. And I know all about this. I write about it all. And I didn't realize I had it. So the telltale things are a bit of whitish. If you look at get a mirror and have a look, it's kind of white, a little bit of white patch or something like that.

Just to general, just be careful. Go and see about it. Because it can actually break down your vulva. You know, it can destroy clitorisers. You still have the nerve endings they can find. but and it can cause great pain. So it's different than just vaginalditis. What happened?

Just comes with age, I'm afraid. One of those things, but it's very similar to Exma. It's very similar to psoriasis. Same thing up there. Very similar to just normal old menopausal symptoms and you don't, I had no idea. No idea at all until I went. Yes, you can treat it with a steroid cream. But you want to get it early because it can cause a lot of damage.

And it's not great, you know, it's just. just, yeah, it's not as nasty. Well, that would be very helpful. Yes. Yeah, it is. And I am really educated about sex and vaginal things and, you know, gyno things, but I didn't spot it. But the thing that doesn't feel right down there, seek help or... Women do.

You just get told her what's menopause. Here's a tube of lube. Get a bit of vaginal estrogen and you'll be fine. They don't look. They don't ask questions. They just, and it does manifest very much like a menopausal symptom. So like you said, go and see a clinic if you could afford it or get referred to a clinic on the NHS that specialises in menopause and they will probably be able to spot it. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about sometimes it's the women that are still keen to have sex, but it's the men that as they get older, they're a little bit less interested.

I've been talking to lots of men recently, you know, because of all the work I do around the menopause about what happens to men as they get older. and if their partners have gone on HRT and are feeling much better and their symptoms are better and they've got vaginal estrogen and then their shops open and then like, you know, they are feeling up for it and then they're not up for it because their testosterone has got so low that they just have lost desire really

and that men can also go and get checked out hormonally and sometimes these things can manifest in a similar way to perimenopause does for women in that you would be feeling tired, less interested in sex, low mood because it's, you know, puts you in a good move when you feel a bit frisky, you know, lack of motivation. So all of those can be symptoms of that.

And if there are men watching or listening, do go and see a male hormonal, it doesn't have to be a man but a hormone doctor or male hormones. Even if they're not low on testosterone, what happens the equivalent to menopause for men is

ED by erectile dysfunction so men, we're coping with my vagina doesn't get wet and oh my god my natural desire for sex men are coping with the fact that their erections are disheart and what was extraordinary when I was writing that book about sex after 50

is women I mean, not all women, but a lot of women are like, right, okay, this is what is happening to my body. I'll try and find some solutions and I'll just deal with it. But it wasn't a great reflection on, oh my God, I can't be a sexual being. I mean, some women are like that, but a lot of women are quite stoic about it. Men, not being able to get an erection for a man is a psychological catastrophe. Yes. They, I mean, there's a brilliant sex therapist called Stephen Snyder, who wrote a book called

extraordinary love making forever or something like that. And he said he's a New York sex therapist and he said, if I get an emergency call from a man, I know it's because he couldn't get an erection. It is the worst thing that can happen to men. Men would rather not have sex than have sex without an erection, even if it doesn't involve penetration, even if they're just going to get a blowjob,

even if they're just going to get somebody masturbating with their hand. If they don't have an erection, they are not interested. it is absolutely totally all part of the male psyche and it happens. And if I get a woman riding in or talking to me and saying, I don't know what's happened. We used to have great sex, but my partner is, you know,

is just not initiating sex anymore. He won't talk about it. All of a sudden, he went from having loads of sex to no sex at all. What the hell has happened? Is he over 40? Is he over 45? He's suddenly got ED.

He's terrified to tell you. Always right. Men suffer. I mean, I feel so sorry for them. I hate the penis. They talk about penis, envy. Who wants a penis? Because it's all, and men don't understand that it is part of their,

everything about a man is allowed to age except for his penis. It's just aging. It is normal. You know, men need more strong stimulation, you know, like before it's a lighter touch, but now they need really strong stimulation. They need to get arouse the same way women do. And that's why often you have better sex when you're older, because you both go back to that full play stage.

You have to spend more time arousing each other because it takes longer because you don't have the hormones. So if we all just understood this is how it goes because of your body and hormones, nothing to do with you're not a man anymore or you're not a woman because, you know, you're not lubricating. Or it's just what happens. You have to work with it.

We do it with everything else. We'll go and get a stick. We'll go and get, you know, do more weights. We'll go and, you know, like realize we have to stretch when we get older. But when it comes to sex, we just punish our bodies. and ourselves about it. It's interesting, isn't it? It's so sad as well,

isn't it? I feel really sorry for men, actually. Yeah, and I think this is a really, really important conversation to have because I think often when you are one-sex, you are kind of thinking about yourself. Yeah. And you're not really empathising properly

with your partner about what that might feel like. You've done a brilliant job, I think, of explaining what that would feel like for a man. I mean, the idea that a man would be too embarrassed, to talk or tell your partner about that is sad, isn't it? Even young men? Yeah.

Most men. Of course, I think it might even be harder for young men because... I'll tell you something else is Viagra. We need to talk about as Viagra. And? Good or bad? Bad. Bad, bad.

What can happen with older men? I love the way you were like, bad. I was like, I don't know, Tracy. I don't know. Just bad in the sense that for younger men, we'll talk about after a bit. But for older men, they're having trouble getting an erection, they think, I know, they have a solution. Of course men have got a solution. No one's worried about women, but of course men have a solution because all the money's gone into it, right?

And it's easier to give a man an erection that is to work on response desire for a woman, right? But so they can go off and take this pill. So suddenly, have you ever seen a biogropinas? No. Right. They are completely different to a normal erection. They're slightly, they look slightly weird, you can tell. They're slightly purple. They're too hard. They're, they're, I mean, they're not off-putting, but you can tell the difference between an erection without Viagra and an erection with Viagra. So you can tell the difference. But you've got to be looking for it and know what you're looking for, but you can tell

the difference. But most men are like, hallelujah, look at this. This is amazing. Look at this. I've taken a pill. And suddenly I've got the erection I haven't had for years, decades even. They want to use it. You're going to put a penis, the 20-year-old version of his penis inside a vagina.

I know. That's 50 odd. The woman goes, what are you? I'm sorry, but this is not, you know, this is not great news for me because it's going to bloody hurt. Can you come on Viagra? Pardon? Can you come on Viagra? Yeah, you can, but it takes longer. That's why it's great if you're having premature ejaculation issues because it can make it last longer.

And, you know, but it's just this disaster. It breaks up a lot of relationships actually because he's then, well, I'm going to go and use it somewhere else sometimes. And it can be a disaster. With young men, they get, you know, especially young guys, you know, like high-flying types of doing a bit of coke and they're doing all that so they mix coke with tobacco. And then women and sometimes men who are really nervous about getting an erection

because of the way women act when they don't have one will take a Viagra the first time just to give them confidence. And then, of course, she's used to that. And then they stop taking it's like, wow, your erection's different than normal. So the next thing, they have to take it all the time. It's not great for you. Is it really big then, I agree with it? Yes, it's a big problem.

And men are, from the minute, you know what it's like if you click on anything, men are bombarded, young men are bombarded with, you know, your penis, big, better, harder, stronger, you know, rock star penis. And older men, the minute you hit probably 45, they'll be being bombarded with it. So this constant message must have a big, hard penis, you know, for men. So no wonder they're so power. annoyed. It's worse than women in lots of ways, I think.

This whole way it's been handled. You were just mentioning about, you know, if a guy would be taking that too much that's like increases the risk of an affair or something or an infidelity. And I was just wondering how, or in

your experience, can a relationship properly recover from an infidelity? Yes. I think so, and I think the person who's done the best work on this, is Esther Perrault. And because nice people have affairs, people have affairs for all sorts of different reasons, but it's not generally, it mean, for women it does tend to mean that she's unhappy.

Lots of happily married men just get into a position where they're opportunist. They, you know, it's at the right time, they think, oh my God, what's it going to hurt? And suddenly the whole world comes apart. And so I think I mean I I struggled with jealousy so badly as a child Because my dad had an affair And then I went to see a jealousy therapist

And I remember and I was married to my first husband And he said to me So if you wait say you're at a party And your husband's gone missing for a bit And then you walk down to the end of the garden And your husband is Just see a sweet little kiss on the lips between him and an ex-girlfriend that he hasn't seen for years,

would you, what would you do? And I said, instant divorce, absolute, never, you know, that would be it. And he said, what about if you had three children and you've been together 40 years? Absolutely not. Now I think, I don't particularly, I would love not to see that and there would be a lot of bloody talking, but I think things happen. What I would like is to not know about an affair. I think things happen in life.

And I think couples go through, you know, You can be married to the same person for years but have different marriages because you change and you're different. Sometimes you're in a great place. Sometimes you're in a terrible place. I met a 65 year old the other day and we were in Berlin, interestingly, and we were having a brilliant talk at a drinks party. And she said, I'm on my fourth marriage and I was like, wow. And she went with the same guy. And I was like, what do you mean?

And she said exactly that. She said, you know, we had the kid phase. That was one marriage. We had the, when we first got together, that was another. We've just intended all the kids have left home and we've been in a new marriage for the last eight years and it's great. I was like, oh my gosh, but I think people make mistakes.

They make genuine human mistakes. And for not all people just go, because there was hot sex on offer and they didn't care about the person, it's generally when somebody's drunk, it's generally when or there, you know, something's happened. Surprisingly, lots of people end up

having an affair after a parent dies because they feel like, I don't know, it's a very, you know, grief is a very interesting thing. Grief is extraordinary in what it does for people. And of course, the person that they're with is like, oh my God, what the hell you've just lost your mother and what you thought the solution to that was to go off and have sex with somebody else. But it's like this, this sort of primal reaction to something. It's, it's not something that I particularly understand, but people do nice people who are in love with their partners sometimes make mistakes and I hope I never have to go through it because I don't think I'd be very good as my dad

but I said you wouldn't walk out the door I'd be I would hang around long enough to know the circumstances you said you'd rather not know about it absolutely so say somebody's confronted by their partner are you having an affair you don't lie right because you should never lie I think like if you find out No, I don't know. Oh, you think, okay.

Listen, if you've had an affair and it was, and I'm not going to be popular for saying this either, but if you've had an affair, it was a genuine mistake, you deeply regret it, it's over, and you're probably never going to get found out. What is the point of putting your partner through that? Through that. I do not. If you really still love them. Absolutely.

What is the point? You're probably going to break up. Yeah. Both are going to be unhappy. What is the point? if you're having an affair and your partner calls you on it, sometimes I think you're better off saying, yeah, I am, and this is the reason why,

because people often have affairs to get themselves out of the marriage. They kind of want to be caught because there's a big problem. They've been saying for ages, I'm not happy, I'm not happy, I'm not happy. The partner's like, yeah, whatever, you're always winging about something and they don't pay attention. And it can be, and that's why some couples recover, because the other person goes, actually, yeah, they're always two people. And not talking about the opportunity affairs.

Opportunistic affairs are completely different. They usually, when somebody's drunk and they haven't thought through. I'm talking about genuine affairs that happened because somebody's not getting something for the marriage. It's generally, yeah, they often have asked their partner. So in that scenario, you might be better off saying actually, yes. And also, you've got more chance of surviving because if your partner's had an affair and you were like, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. You've got more chance of staying with them than if, oh my God, I thought we were the

happiest we've ever been. And then you think, well, how the hell am I going to spot that again? How am I ever going to spot that again? Whereas if you knew, if you saw signs, you're better off. I don't recommend having an affair as a way. No, I was just going to say, it's like, no. It's a deadly thing to do. Well, it's very dangerous because most people don't cope with them. The big thing that flaws people when their partner has an affair, particularly in a close relationship, is that you and me against the world, like you went off and had an adventure without me.

Like you, you, to be us. And don't you think I wanted to do that? Yes. It's that, it breaks up. Yes. It breaks out. And I don't know whether you ever get that back. I think that is very true.

I think that thing of being a gang, a two-person gang. Yes. Us against the world. Yeah. It's important. Well, it is to me, definitely. Me too. And that would be the hardest thing that I want to deal with.

Out of everything that we've spoken about, I would like to know, like, what your top five things, out of everything we've talked about, to have, like, great connected sex at any age, I guess. Well, number one, you have to be able to talk about it. you have to be able to talk about sex with your partner. Because if you don't... How do you do that with someone who's like locked in?

Well, you have to make them talk about it because you have to, because everybody talks about sex at the beginning, you know, weren't we great, we did that. That's easy. But the minute there's a problem, that's where people stop talking about sex. If you, like, any sex problem can be solved if you can talk to your partner. Yes. Any sex problem.

And there's a million things online about how to do this. You start with, you know, baby conversations and then you build up. to it and you start again talking about you don't have the big we're going to talk about sex because everyone's like what you just talk about it the way you know I was listening to a podcast today about sex and this girl you know when we're saying this move on to something else yeah that's sort of how you get used to talking about sex okay manage expectations we have such we're just we just fall for all the myths like you know the whole watch tv and everybody's having intercourse orgasms and I've just miles is like can we just watch one show where you don't

don't go into a complete rage at the TV. That wouldn't happen, would it? And then what would be another thing? I think find your own normal is the other thing about the frequency of sex. Don't get all hung up about, you know, I mean, they used to have a definition of a sexless marriage being six times or less a year. Now, a lot of couples are having sex six times or less a year and actually quite happy and consider themselves sexual.

So just find what works for the two of you. What else would I say? be the point before about being brave and if your partner opens up, be, you know, just be aware that people are very vulnerable about. Yes. It's really. But you are super vulnerable if you talk about it. I love that.

Yes. I mean, even I am. I've been talking about sex since I was like 10 probably, but maybe not 10. But, you know, and I'm still vulnerable. And, you know, you've got to have a partner who's not going to shame you or call you weird or just and understand. Understand about it. and understand like if you're, I don't know how people get through relationships

if they're menopause and they can't talk to their partner and say, Christ, this is happening. Can you believe it? And some women are like, I don't want to tell my partner this. You know, like I want them to see me as sexy. Well, I had.

You're human as well as sexy. A guy who I know, who came, came round to the house and knocked on my door in his mid-60s and said, I just wanted to say thank you for your menopause documentaries. And I was like, oh my God, are you kidding me?

He teared up and he said, me and my wife sat down. And for the first time, we talked about it. And I thought for all of those years where she'd been perimenopausal that she didn't love me anymore, that it was me. And when she explained that it was something else and she always had loved me, everything felt fine. Then when she was distant or angry or flew off the handle about something, he'd think, it's not me.

It's the menopause. Everything changed for him. And I thought, oh my God. That's a wonderful story. It was worth doing just for that guy. Oh, Davina, there would have been many, many, many people who watched that and thought that. Because people aren't open about things. And it's absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, your partner's meant to be the person that you can say, you know, this is happening to me. And also it normalised it. So if I say to my partner, I've just said this for general sclerosis, oh my God, it makes me feel so unsexy. And it means that I can't do that. anymore and then if he has erection problems he's going to feel much more able to come to me and go, well, you're talking about that. Well, my penis isn't doing what it should be doing. So it just normalises sex. The fifth one is desire isn't the only motivation for sex. Don't, don't people, I mean, something like 25 to 30 percent of the times that a long-term couple have sex is because

they want to please their partner. They do it to please their partner. Not that they particularly want to have sex. Right. And then the partners do it. to please them at other times. And virtually, I think they reckon half of most sessions that long-term couples have are not mutually satisfying. But that is what happens in a long-term relationship. And it won't mean that they didn't enjoy the sex, but they'll say, oh, I loved feeling close afterwards.

I loved watching her get turned on. It made us feel happy, you know, like it made us feel connected again. There are so many other reasons other than desire. And I think sex and a long-term relationship. Be generous, definitely. Be gentle. the next day, you feel closer in some way. Of course you do.

So even if you weren't triggered by desire, it has a very positive outcome. Yes. There are plenty of reasons. That's why you should make sex a habit and just keep doing it. How often would you say is a habit, sorry. They've done so much research into frequency because everyone's hung up on frequency. And they did one very important study and they made a couple have sex, like lots of couples have sex every single day. because we have this thing that, you know,

if the more sex the better. And couples who had sex every single day were quite miserable because it was too much. And they found the perfect time for couples to have sex to reap all of the health benefits, stay connected, but not too much is once a week. Once a week is the magic number. So for some people that was like,

whoa, that's way too much, that's way too little, that's, you know. But if you want to stay connected and stuff, if you can just manage once a week, you'll be fine. That seems to be the magic number for most people. But it's all about age and stage. You know, when people, they did that famous study about couples had sex 2.2 times per week. I grew up with that.

Everybody grew up with that. It was a bit like the menopause studies with HRT. A group of 20 people decided to do an experiment and that came out and it's just stuck. It's like the seven-year-inch was made up for a movie. God, that's so funny. It was a seven-year-e. I thought the seven-year-age was a thing. It was made up a very funny movie.

It was a fictional point in a fictional book within a fictional movie. There's never been a seven-year-inch. Oh my God. That is so funny. That is a great way to end our podcast with an absolute corker of a lie. Yes. That's mad. It is mad, isn't it?

Tracy, you did not disappoint. Well, neither did you. I have to say. I love you. This is one of the best discussions I've had about. sex. Don't worry, I shall worship at your feet every time I see. So we should do that every single time. That would be great.