Begin Again with Davina McCall - Mel Robbins: These 2 Words Will Fix Your Relationships!

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Mel Robbins reveals how she escaped £800,000 in debt, overcame crippling anxiety, and rebuilt her life using a simple tool known as the 5 Second Rule. She opens up about hitting rock bottom, the moment that sparked her transformation, and why waiting to “feel ready” is a lie. Mel also shares the science behind breaking bad habits and how small, consistent actions create real change. The conversation also dives into Mel’s viral “Let Them” Theory—a powerful mindset shift that’s helping millions let go of control and heal their relationships. From navigating marriage struggles and parenting challenges to building inner peace, Mel offers hard-earned wisdom, practical tools, and emotional honesty. This is a must-watch for anyone feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or ready to begin again. 🎙️ Drop a comment: What’s Your Biggest takeaway? Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod "Let Them" Available here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Let-Them-Theory-Life-Changing-Millions/dp/1788176189/ref=tmm[…]1OoSw1UBXmoh1rOflxcVGDm_jVjrYTds--OUYM&qid=1749572663&sr=8-1 (00:00:00:00) Intro (00:00:03:02) Coming Up... (00:01:12:07) Gratitude (00:01:40:02) Becoming Mel Robbins (00:07:05:17) Mel's Personal Journey and Finding Motivation (00:14:33:09) How I Got Out of $800,000 in Debt (00:17:44:17) Being the Villain of Your Own Story (00:19:09:21) Talking About Family (00:20:14:17) 5 Second Theory (00:27:52:07) Ancient & Brave Ad (00:29:21:16) TEDx Talk in 2011 (00:33:47:06) Science Behind the 5 Second Theory (00:35:59:05) Understanding Motivation and What Holds Us Back (00:37:57:13) Let Them Theory (00:41:16:00) Control, Power, and Relationships (00:47:52:05) When 'Let Them' Becomes 'Let Me' (00:52:36:12) Mel on Working with Her Daughter & Breakups (01:00:54:12) Applying the Let Them Theory to Children (01:04:52:06) Dealing with a Fight or Flight Mentality (01:12:56:23) Navigating Adult Friendships Sponsored by: Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was shocked to learn that the single biggest thing that is standing in everybody's way is that, oh my God. Myrubbins. You are the queen of beginning again. I used to be the kind of person that let my feelings run me over. Yes. I've spent my entire life trying to control everything. I think it was to feel safe. I can relate.

I thought loving meant controlling. The let them theory bridged a gap. But the truth is, the more you learn. how to love people as they are, the better your relationships get. Yes, I mean, I always say living a life that you love. Friends are so important. Adult friendship is very hard because there's three factors that make friendship possible with anyway.

Number one, you have to have proximity. The second factor is timing. And third one is, how can parents help children using the let them theory? Let them learn from life while you've got your arm around their shoulder saying, I am here when you need me. but I saw this thing that I'd never seen before. And once I explain it, you'll never look at life the same way again. Wow.

Uh-huh. Well, firstly, I'd like to say, Mul Robbins, welcome. Thank you. I just want to let you know that you are safe, but I am not such a big fan that you need to be worried for your safety or anything. You're going to be okay. But I love what you do, and thanks for everything. You're welcome.

what I want to start with. I think the huge thing for me that sticks out with you, you know, this podcast is about beginning again. And really it's to help people live a life that they love so much that when they die, they're happy to go. They've lived. And beginning again is scary. And I love what you say about courage.

and I want to talk to you about that later. But you've done it again and again and again. But you've been so brave. And, you know, I want to talk about that first time where you left what was basically a solid, safe job and leapt into the arena of what basically is your passion, your life's work is helping other people. where were you at and what made you do it?

You know, it's interesting you use the word brave because I don't think of myself as brave. I think of myself as somebody who is very negatively motivated. Right. That I had to get to a point where things were not working or I was so sick of my own bullshit that and you have this realization that no one's going to come and fix the state of your life. And at some point, you're either going to just throw in the towel and this is going to be it and this is what it's always going to be like or you're going to get so sick of where you're at that you're actually going to do something different.

That's why you're brave. See, I don't think that's bravery at all. I feel like bravery is something, well, maybe it is bravery because I was going to say that I, I feel that I, I feel. feel like in those moments where you're just like, I have to not allow this depression to consume. I have to drag myself out of bed. I have to get a job. I have to stop blaming everybody else or looking at the past and dwelling on the regrets. And I have to do something different if I want my life to feel different. And to me, those moments never felt like kind of a, ha!

They felt more just like a, all right. And that never felt like bravery to me, because bravery feels like lightning striking. I mean, I think what it is for me is that you seem to have that in you innately. And I know so many people that know that's what they need to do. but they can't do it. And that's why I think it takes courage to do those steps because you don't want to do it.

But it's almost like you're in so much pain you have to. But I don't know what gets you the pain. Like how do you, some people have it and some people don't. But there was something that I've read in your acknowledgments actually, which I absolutely love. What did I read? No, wait, it's so good. It's about your mom.

Oh. And I haven't got my glasses with me, but I'm going to say, thank you. Yes. Probably really dirty. No, wait. I'm just going to address our audience here for one moment. I just want to let you know. And anybody that's listening and not watching that I'm about to put my

robin's glasses actually on my face. Something magic going to happen to me when I do this. They're really dirty, so I don't know. Hopefully you won't get sick. What you mean? Dirty, filthy or like. I don't know what it's about glasses. Why they're always so dirty.

This is great. I can see. So, mum and dad. They look great on you. Thanks. Mum and dad. Thank you. I think you get credit for instilling me with the let me spirit as a little girl.

As I wrote this book, I kept thinking about that needle point pillow. Love this. You stitched with the saying, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it. What a mum. Mm-hmm. I mean, that is what gets you to the place. where when your back is up against the wall.

It's true. And when your mother says that to you, you don't want to hear it. Because you want someone to come in and fix it for you. And in life, there will be those moments. And they're all deeply personal. There will be those moments where you just get so tired of where things are at in your life that you pull up your big girl panties and you deal with it.

And it has happened so many times. times in my life. And here's the only thing that you need as a starting point in order to make your life better. The only thing you need is to admit to yourself that there is an aspect of your life that no longer feels the way you want it to feel. That's all you need. And how long it takes you to, in your words, find the bravery, in mind to just do what you need to do, how long it takes from the moment where you know that the way life feels isn't how you want it to feel anymore and how long it takes until you start doing something different, that's a personal journey. And it has a lot to do with your mindset. It has a lot to do with whether or not you have a level of discouragement,

which I think is the single biggest thing that people are struggling with. I think that the number one obstacle in everybody's way is not ability. It's belief. It's belief. It's. that it won't matter. You have the ability to change your life, but if you believe that it's not going to matter or that the things that have worked for everybody else will not work for you, that is a belief, then you will not do the things that you are capable of doing. And so I, over the years, have this steadfast belief that anybody can make their life. And, better because they are capable of doing the boring, grueling, painful, irritating things that make your life better. But what's stopping you is the belief that it's not going to work or that you don't deserve it or that nothing is going to help.

And that's it. I mean, I couldn't agree more and I think it is a belief in yourself, but it's a belief in yourself. It's so sad, isn't it, when people don't have that belief and you can't, they've got to find it within themselves to move forwards. Or you have to hit a level of pain or suffering where staying where you're at is actually harder than doing the thing that you're avoiding. And one of the things that was of, like, tremendous relief to me as I was interviewing all these experts and building the case for the Let Them Theory in this book was, One of these incredible neuroscientist, psychiatrist, experts from Harvard Medical School, Dr. Kay, he goes by the Healthy Gamer Online, basically said every single one of us has the wiring of the human brain completely wrong. We're stepping on the gas, thinking it's the break.

We're stepping on the brake, thinking that it's the gas. And the one thing that he said over and over and that he writes about in all his research is that your brain is wired as a default to move towards what's easy right now. and to move away from what's really hard. And so one of the reasons why I was stuck for so long is because it was easier to lay in bed. It was hard to get out of bed. It was easier to hit the snooze button. It's hard to get out of bed and look for a job.

It's easy to blame my husband. It's hard to accept responsibility for your role in how you got so in debt as a married couple. It's easier to drink. It's hard not to. And so if we reflexively move as a species towards the thing that's easy now, it means that you're not really wired to do the things you need to do until either you force yourself or where you're at sucks so bad that this thing you've been avoiding is going to be a lot easier than staying where you're at. I mean, you did get to a point where your life sucked so bad. Oh, yeah, multiple times.

I got into debt when I was about 18 and I had a Saturday job. That was it. And I was at school. I was finishing my school. And I got into about £3,000 worth of debt and I was throwing the envelopes in the bin, not opening them. They go straight in the bin. And my dad, I was still living at home, my dad noticed. And he was like, we're going to open these together.

and he looked at how much debt I was in. And back in those days, I mean, that was like decades ago. You know, that was a big deal, a huge amount of money. And he said, you know, he's not coming to save me. He's not coming to help me. But he said, I'm going to tell you what to do. You've got to phone the bank manager. You've got to make an appointment.

You've got to go in with her, go and have a meeting with her and sort it out. So I did. Greatest thing he ever did for me, I was 18 years old, and I've never been in, apart from the obvious debts, I've borrowed money to buy a car and I've re-paid. I've never been in severe debt where I have not paid payments or anything, again, because I've lived very carefully because of that. I learned.

When I read in your book that you were in $800,000, I literally felt the anxiety, dollars worth of debt. Yes. And what sort of age were you at then? 41. So, you know, if you don't know, The story basically at the age of 41, I had lost my job. My husband and his friend had gone into the restaurant business, and the first one did really

well, so like complete morons. We cashed out our entire life savings, the kids college fund. We took out a home equity line. We found every credit card we could, and we cashed all of that out, and we shoved it all into the business. And this was right around 2007, which was right. when the housing crisis and the huge recession hit. And we just found ourselves upside down.

Leans on the house. Friends and family had invested. So all of a sudden, you don't want to talk about the situation that you're in. I don't have a job. Chris isn't getting paid. Their payroll is bouncing. They're starting to take loans against the credit card receipts factoring, which is basically predatory lending. It was such a mess.

And the interesting thing about life is that when, it happens to somebody else. It's easy to give advice. It's easy for your dad or it's easy if you're listening or watching right now for somebody else to tell you, go to the bank, open up the bills. Let's start chipping away at this. But when it happens to you, it's personal. And we are so, or I was so ashamed, I should say, that we were in this state. And it also felt so huge. that I was convinced we would never get out of it. So any advice that anybody had, I would have said, well, that's not going to work. Because I was so deep in the hole of regret of the decisions we had made.

I was so angry at my husband. And this is a funny thing because I was angry at it. It's not like he tried to do this. But I was angry because it's easier to be angry and blame other people than it is to be afraid. And here I am in this moment where the things to do are obvious. Look for a job. Tell your families what's going on and ask for help. Open up the bills that have been piling up for six months. Stop drinking bourbon Manhattan like it is water you're hydrating with every night. Stop screaming at the kids. Stop screaming at Chris. Stop isolating yourself. Like there are things that anybody with a brain would know are making the situation. We're going to be a situation. We're going to be a little. first, I still did them. And I knew what I could be doing. I knew I should look for a job. I knew I should get out of bed. I knew I should exercise. I knew I should know my parents. I knew I should talk to my girlfriends about what was happening. I know I shouldn't yell at Chris. I knew I

shouldn't yell at the kids. But knowing it didn't help me do it. And that's a huge thing that I didn't know. I know this now, that there's a gap between knowledge and action. Yes. And if you know what to do, you're just, marked. When you do what you need to do, you change your own life. And it was during this period of my life where, you know, we're about to lose the house. Chris and I are in a devastating place in our marriage. I'm drinking myself into the ground. I'm isolating. I am experiencing crushing anxiety because I'm having these nightmares over and over that they're going to come in the middle of the night and we're going to get dragged out of this house and we're going to lose it all and just terrible.

And I would wake up every morning and the first thing I would feel is all of that anxiety pinning me to the bed like a gravity blanket. And I would stare there. I would just lay there and stare at the ceiling and just think about what a shit show my life had become. And then I would hit the snooze button. And then I'd wake up again and stare at the ceiling. And then I hit the snooze button. and then I'd wake up again and stare at the ceiling. And even though I knew I shouldn't be doing it, I kept doing it. And that's a very relatable thing. Like how many times have you been in a relationship and you're like, I need to end this thing?

I'll just wait another week. Or you go into a job every day for a year and you hate the thing. And you keep saying, I need to get a different job, but you don't do it. Or you slowly let yourself go. And you're winded walking up a flight of stairs. And it was never that way. and you keep saying, I need to get back to the gym. I need to stop just snacking every night.

And you don't do it. And that was the trap that I was stuck in. I knew what I could do, but I started convincing myself. There are two mistakes I made. I was convincing myself it wouldn't matter. And I was waiting to feel motivated to do it. I think one of the things that I love so much about you is that in life, In Narcotics Anonymous, I got clean by going to Narcotics Anonymous.

And in Narcotics Anonymous, they talk about attraction rather than promotion. What does that mean? So it means that when you get clean, you want to go up to all other addicts and go, oh my God, it's absolutely the best thing ever you've got to go to N.A. It works so brilliant. It's so good. And like, you must go. Like, you'll get clean.

It's so good. And they will just go, nope, no thanks. I don't want anything to do with that. But actually, if they see you. living a happy life, you are enjoying yourself, it's you've changed yourself, you're not telling them what to do, you are living your new life. And I think what I love about you is that you're telling us your experience. You're not going, if you do this, this will happen. This is what happened to you and hey, it might work for you as well. Yeah. And there's something so, I did want to ask you about

your family because you reveal quite a lot about your life. And how is that for them? For my family? Yes. Well, you know, I'm talking about myself right now and you'll notice in almost all the stories, I'm the villain. I have noticed. Well, people like to be the hero of their own story. You're also the villain. I got news for you. We want to make everybody else a villain, but what if you actually look at your own story as if you're the villain? Villain. Yes. Because, like, you know, I don't know. Like, I just, I'm, I have, I don't have any problem admitting the things that I have done that I wish I could have done differently. That's very attractive.

Well, I, it's easier than lying. Because people, lots of people do that, lie to cover up for mistakes that they've made because of the shame. Well, I did that for years. And then all of a sudden, you. you realize it's so much easier just to be honest about what you're thinking and what you've experienced. And you also then start to realize the freer you are with the stories about what happened and what you learned from it, you liberate yourself from judgment and shame. Because you don't have any. Like, I'm not, like, I don't feel like it's vulnerable or brave

or any of the stuff to just tell the stories about the places in my life where, I've done well or where I've done poorly because it is just what happened. And so back to your question about my family, you know, back then there was no podcast. There was no, I mean, I wasn't paying, I didn't even have a job for crying out loud. So today, I have boundaries around what I'll share about my family. So if we're going to talk about anything related to the kids in particular, I have to have their permission. And if it's a story on the podcast, they get to listen before the thing goes out and they can make whatever edits or say absolutely not. Because their story is not mine to tell.

But the experience that I have, I can certainly find a similar story not involving them that brings up the same theme. So I'm very, very conscientious about that. And sometimes I get it right and sometimes I don't. So you're talking about this trying to get out of bed, you know, the snooze button, which is something that all of us can relate to. And would you say that the five-second theory was the first sort of big one that you came up with? Oh, yes. This is mega. Well, I didn't think this is mega at all.

So what happened is I literally, my life was falling apart. And I was watching television one night and a rocket ship went off the television. screen just as I was saying, all right, tomorrow morning, Mel, it's a new you. You got to find a job. You got to be nice to Chris. You got to open those bills. And by God, woman, you have got to get out of bed when that alarm rings. And this rocket ship launched across the television screen. And I was like, that's it. That's a sign from God. I'm going to rock it out of bed tomorrow. I'm going to move so fast. I'm not going to be in that bed when that anxiety strikes. Now, I was four Manhattan's in. So it was probably the bourbon that gave me the idea, because it sounds kind of stupid. But the next

morning is when I saw this universal habit. I didn't call it that then, but I saw this thing that I'd never seen before. And once I explain it, you'll never look at life the same way again. There's a five-second window that defines your whole life. It is a moment of hesitation. It is a moment where you go from thinking about what you need to, from knowing what you need to do to then hesitating and thinking about it. It's unmistory. And once you see this, and I explain it with the alarm clock, you'll see it every morning. The alarm goes off. You know you're supposed to get out of bed.

You're the one who set the damn alarm. Like, it's not like, oh, that's a surprise. 6.15, I set that. And then instead of getting out of bed, you stop and think, do I feel like getting out of bed? And if you think about something and hesitate for more than five seconds, your brain just clicks into, like, habit mode. And you do what you always did. And for me, that was hit the snooze button and avoid doing anything. And that morning, just like NASA launches a rocket, I just counted backwards.

Right as I saw it, okay, the alarm's off. I remember the rocket. I don't feel like it's dark, it's cold, it's February. I don't want to, and I started reaching for the snooze button. I just started counting, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and then I stood up. It was the weirdest thing. And then I went on with my day. Next morning, same thing.

Alarm went off. I didn't spring out of bed. I still don't spring out of bed. Like, I don't feel like. I don't want to. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, I'm up again. It was the third morning. The third morning, when I counted backwards 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, I learned it was like,

am I a witch? Like, is this, like, actually a, like, secret from God? Like, what is this thing? And so I made myself this promise. Any time today where you know what you should do or could do, but you don't feel like it, just count backwards and make yourself do it. and I probably counted backwards 27 times that day. 5,4, 321, pick up the phone and start networking.

544321, put on the sneakers, go for a walk. 5, 4 321, call my mother and tell her what's going on. 5, 4, 321, take a breath, don't scream at Chris. And that was the beginning. And this countdown technique, 5, 4, 321, became a tool that I would use every day, all day, to push myself through the anxiety, the self-doubt, the procrastination, the perfectionism, the excuses, all of it so that I could take the actions that changed everything over time. What I think is fascinating is that so many people who are really in dire anxiety, holes,

financial problems, everything, will look at you and think, you are living proof that there is a way out of feeling like this. Yes. So was that like the first moment where kind of Mel Robbins speaker, podcaster was born, like in a way in your head, no. I suppose, but just think about this. I could have easily gotten out of bed that first morning and just been like, okay, and then the next morning hit the snooze button again.

Yes. See, what nobody wants to hear is there's no pill. There's no shortcut. cut, there's no overnight anything. There is the grueling, boring, tedious, small moves that you make in a new direction. It's literally you against you. That's what the work is, and nobody wants to hear it. Like I literally, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

I was getting out of bed putting one foot in front of the other. Day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, just trying to pay my bills, trying not to kill my husband or get a divorce, trying to get the drinking under control, trying to get the kids on the bus on time, trying to be honest about everything that was going on with myself and my friends and my family. So you're just trying to survive? Just trying to survive. And that was the beginning.

And I did this in secret and private for three years. I didn't tell anybody about it except for Chris. Hey, what am I going to say to my friends? I'm doing this countdown thing. You should try it. Yeah, I guess. My life is a shit show. Why would I be giving you advice?

Like, I'm literally just trying to 5, 4, 3,21, do a little better. 5, 4, 321, force myself to do the things that I know will change my life for the better. And the funny thing is this. You never feel like doing them. I mean, just stop and consider something. If you just did the things you don't feel like doing, in a matter of a year or two, you'd have almost everything you've ever wanted. You're capable of the actions. But it's going to be you against your feelings and you against your excuses and you against you against you. And so this little count backwards technique, I didn't even understand why it was working at the time, became a tool that I could reach for. in those moments where the emotions or the negativity were starting to stop me. And so, you know, it just proves a point. You change your life with action. You don't change

your life by thinking about it. You don't change your life by waiting around to feel ready. You change your life by making a decision that you no longer like where you're at. And you're going to start acting consistent with the kind of person who has the kind of life that you want. like it's the people's you know it's the simplest thing you know it's the simplest thing you want to be a right or right every day you want to feel healthier move your body every day you want to get out of debt open those bills chip away out every day stop spending so much every day and so for me this three year period where chris and i were just every day waking up and just taking the steps and aren't fun and pushing ourselves forward and starting to make the ends meet and

starting to chip away at things and things are starting to get a little bit better. And, you know, when I first shared this thing, this 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 countdown thing, I didn't intend to become some motivational speaker. I didn't intend to do anything. What is that? Who are you? Davina, it's me. Us, from 2045.

Oh, my God. We look fabulous. We're still going strong. We're still doing workouts. We're still glowing like a lava lamp at Glastow, clearly. And I just really wanted to come back and say thank you. Thank you. Oh!

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Save the everyday with Amazon. Could you just explain where you first shared it? Because it was a surprise to you, wasn't it, the number of people that related to it? Yeah, so I was invited to speak at this event. would have been 2011. So we're talking 14 years ago. Long time ago. Fourteen years ago, I was invited to speak at this event. Now, meanwhile, I'd been using the five-second rule for three years. We're in a better place. We've certainly, we have not paid off any of the debt, by the way. So that debt did not go like this. We still have the liens on the house. Like, we are just

making things that ends meet getting it together. I'm working two different jobs. Chris is still barely keeping the restaurants open. I don't know how we even threaded the needle on all this. But so somebody asked me, would you be willing to come to this event in San Francisco? This is like a college buddy. A friend of mine's putting on this event in San Francisco. They're looking for somebody who can talk about career change, and you've changed your career a lot. Now, that's not really a compliment. And so I'm like, I don't know. And they say, well, they're going to fly you and your husband out and they'll put you up at the St. Regis for two nights. So when you're in debt, that's free vacation.

So I said, yeah, 5, four, three, two, one. Yes. And so all of a sudden I get out there, and this is one of the first ever TEDx conferences. So TEDx was not a thing. I did not know what TED was. I did not. They were just starting to do these TEDx conferences, and they weren't really doing any kind of training because it wasn't a big thing.

And so it hadn't occurred to me, oh, you're going to be on stage in an auditorium. And even though I had been a lawyer, like when you're in a courtroom talking to judges, you know, and like, it's not like giving a speech in front of strangers. So I get out there. And if you've ever seen my TEDx talk, you're looking at a 21-minute-long panic attack. Like, I've got the bright red rash all over my chest a minute in. I'm darting all over the stage like a scared animal. Can I just say something? Yes.

I have seen it. And I didn't. I actually felt like you covered it quite well because I did see you afterwards talk about it. Yes. And say that you were going through a panic attack. But I was like, wow, I really didn't feel that. Oh, my God. Well done you.

Thank you. And I wasn't planning on talking about the five-singer rule. Wow. At minute 19, I forgot what I was supposed to say. And I do this thing where I'm like, oh, by the way, there's this thing I do. Are you serious? I call it the five-second rule. The moment you have an instinct to move,

you've got to move within five seconds or else your brain kills your instinct to act. Thank you very much. And then I went to leave the stage and I turned around and gave out my email address and I left. And I said to Chris, that is the worst thing that's ever happened to me.

I'm never giving a speech again. We went home. We went back to our lives and a year goes by. A year goes by, and in 2012, TEDx selected two talks from that event and put it online. I did not know this. That TEDx talk starts to go viral on Facebook,

and viral's like, you know, a couple thousand people see it. And how do I know this? Because people start to write to me at that email address. And I'm like, wait, how did you see that thing? in San Francisco. Were you in the audience? No, it's on Facebook. And within about six months, people started to write and ask if I would come talk at small events, you know, like a Realtors conference for a regional, whatever. And so I just started saying, okay, now I had no idea

why this thing was working. I didn't know if it was a gift from God. I didn't know if it was a magic trick. I didn't know the science that I know now. I had no idea. idea why it worked the way that it did. And so I decided, because I'm a lawyer, I'm going to dig in and figure out and make evidence and research this and build a case because if people are asking me to talk about this. And then meanwhile, as that video starts to spread online, people are starting to write and go, holy cow, I've used a five-second rule to get sober. Oh, yeah, 5, 4-3-2-8. You're sober. You're sober. Amazing. Every decision every day. Yeah. 5-4-3-2-1. I've tripled my business, because it's amazing for forcing myself to make cold calls.

5,4, 3,2, 1, I finished the album that I've been working on for five years because I stopped listening to the excuses and forced myself to take action. And so the stories started to build up. And as the stories built up, I felt more and more responsibility, honestly, to understand why this countdown technique worked. And so I just tracked down some of the world's leading researchers on how. habits and the things that I discovered were fantastic. Basically, when you count backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Habit researchers call it metacognition. They also call it a starting ritual.

So it's a little mind trick that you can use. 5,4, 321, counting backwards, requires you to focus. And that brings this part of your brain online. And the focus interrupts the automatic loops of thinking and the habit of avoiding procrastinating the anxiety that starts you down the what-ifs. 5-4-3-2-1 brings this part of the brain online and gives you a moment of control when you are now in charge of what you do next. And so it doesn't work if you count up, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.5. Because you can do that without thinking. No, 4, 3-21.

Yes, it's really interesting. Yes, it's very interesting. And so then, you know, it just took off from there. And so that was the beginning. but what's interesting is, you know, I've been using the five-second rule now for, my God, what is it, 16, 17 years. I still use it to get it out of bed because here's the thing. If you don't like doing something, you're never going to like doing it. And so I think it's a lie that habits lock in in 21 days. I think it's only true if you like doing that thing. And so once I realize, wait a minute, for the rest of my life, there are going to be things that I can achieve.

If I force myself to do those things before I feel ready, that's the secret. You cannot listen to your emotions. Motivation is complete garbage. It's not there when you need it. And it's never going to be there when the thing that you need to do is scary or hard or you've never done it before. And that's the mistake so many of us and that I made for the first 40-some years of my life. I was waiting for the feelings to strike first. That's not how you're wired.

the action actually reorders everything. And we've all experienced this. You force yourself to go to an exercise class. You feel 100 times better afterwards. You're motivated after you do it. Have you ever noticed that? Yes. I mean, I always say after I've done exercise, I love exercise.

Yes. But after I've done exercise, I always say I want to go for a run. Like I want to go and rah! Yeah, like I'm full of energy. But you never have it before. No. And so understanding that in life, if you can figure out what you want, or even just something that you want to make a little better,

you're never going to want to do it. Once you know what the thing is, whether it's writing, whether it's looking for a job, whether it's breaking up with the person that you don't, you know, that's not treating you well. But over the years, here's the interesting thing, is that, you know, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, 4, 3, push myself, push myself. I started to wonder, why the hell do I have to push myself so much?

What is the resistance? Like if I know that I should get out of bed, if I know that I want to get a different job, if I know I'd like to make more money, if I know I'd like to be kinder myself, take better care of. What exactly is in my way? And I'll tell you what, I was shocked to learn that the single biggest thing that is standing in everybody's way is the power that you unknowingly give to other people. behind every excuse, every moment of anxiety, every everything is a deep fear of what other people that are going to think or say or do. And that is the root of it all. Is this power that we hand over to other people.

I mean, that's why I need five, four, three, two, one. Yes, it's the resistance, but the resistance is coming from being so afraid of where I'm at or what people are thinking and the death spiral of thoughts. Have you found getting older It has been Has helped you with that Because I've found that as I've got older I've cared less and less

I don't think so Oh really? No Maybe you're stronger person than I am But I just It wasn't until the left of the theory I swear to God I can sit here and pretend

Because you do have a little bit of a Ah fuck it You know when you get a little bit older But I do feel that the let them theory bridged a gap between this truth that we all know, which is you've got to stop giving and caring so much about other people's thoughts and feelings and happiness and action to the detriment of yourself. But I didn't know how to bridge that concept into a day-to-day way of living.

I think I slightly misled you there with what I was trying to say because actually I care less what people think about what I'm wearing or, you know, like if I misbehave or I wear socks with shoes or which is seen to be something that people do with young, to be young, like that kind of stuff. But I think the thing that I found with this, the really big freedom for me, is that I've spent my entire life trying to control everything. Yes. How so? Give me some examples. I'm going to start crying, but I love crying, so don't worry about me. I just do this a lot. But I think it was to feel safe.

So I maybe grew up in an environment where I didn't feel entirely safe like it was a bit all over the place. And controlling things or trying to control outcomes or control outcomes or control people or control my children to an extent at the beginning, I got better at that as I got older. But actually, I found when I read your book, I had been doing a little bit of this as they got older. Anyway, but there are a lot of other areas like friendships, work. You know, this is amazing.

But I think for me it was security. but if I was in control of everything, nothing could go wrong and then I'll be okay. And it's absolutely exhausting, physically, emotionally. It has a negative effect on your relationships with people, everybody. And when I laughed out loud when I read the prom story

about your kids, because that's happened to me with my kids and then being like, What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Mom, you're annoying. Yes. Well, a couple things just to reflect back. You're 1,000% right.

This is actually a book about control, power, and relationships. That's what it's about. And peace. And every human being has a hardwired need to be in control. It is what makes us feel safe. We need to feel like we're in control of our careers, in control of the decisions we're making, in control of what's going to happen today,

in control of what might happen tomorrow. And the mistake that we make is that when somebody else does something that makes us feel unsettled or worried or frustrated or hurt or upset or we just don't like it or we have an opinion, their behavior bumps up against our need to feel in control. And then we make a fatal mistake of crossing the line

and trying to control them. Yeah. And then what happens, though, is every other person has the same need to be in control of themselves. So when you try to control them, it triggers their need to be in control, which is why there is so much unnecessary friction and frustration and distance and misunderstandings in relationships. because we are, I think as a species, I can speak for myself. I didn't pick this out until I was 54. I thought loving meant controlling.

I thought connection meant we're in harmony because you're doing what I want you to do. Right? And I got lucky because I married a guy who's very zen and somewhat passive, so he just lets all my stuff roll off his back. But the truth is, there was a lot of sort of distance between us emotionally because I was constantly trying to change him. And when you're trying to change or control somebody, that's not loving them. No. That's judging them.

And it makes people pull away from you even if they're right in front of you. And so if you've ever had this experience where you feel like, you're, you're, you're, you. you're living in a household with people that you see every day, people use the word roommates, or another word is, but you're both emotionally and mentally sequestered from each other, that you're not connected at all. That is a sign that the control and the judgment

and the desire that somebody is changing has created that in both of you. And the greatest thing about the let them theory is that once you actually learn how to let people be who they are, and let them be who they're not, and let people have the dignity of their own experience, of course, if you choose to support them through things and with you by their side, but the more you let other people and you learn how to love people as they are, the better your relationships get because you're the one who's teaching yourself how to break that toxic habit of trying to change everyone around you and control everyone around you and you're the one who's now creating this space that comes from acceptance. That is what this book is about. It's about power. It's about peace. It's about compassion and radical acceptance and relationships, both with self and with other people. because it's all, you know, and one of the things that people get wrong about the let them theories, everyone's like, so I'm just supposed to let them treat them terribly?

First of all, you already are. So if you're at a point where you're going, well, I'm just supposed to let them disrespect me, just stop and ask yourself, if you're noticing it now because you're saying let them, I guarantee you it's been happening for a long time. Let them is not allowing and excusing anything. let them is recognizing it because when you say let them you are forcing yourself to recognize that how this person treats you is evidence of who they are and how they feel about you and your power is not in trying to change or control them your power begins the moment you recognize the situation that you're in for exactly as it is and exactly as it isn't. And most of us, the most challenging people that are in our lives, were related to them. You know, families are in our lives to teach you

how to love people you hate at times. And it's easy to say, just cut people out of your life, but most of us have challenging dynamics with people we deeply care about, whether it's your ex or whether it's a parent or whether it's a child who's now married somebody that you don't like, and you don't want to cut them out. You want to figure out how to change the dynamic so that you can have them in your life. And it was a huge wake-up call for me when I was writing all about, you know, I'm building the case for the Let Them Theory that I have been wanting people that I'm close to to change my whole life. They have been the same person my whole life. and some of the world's leading experts on things like narcissism and, you know, child sex,

all say one of the things that keeps us trapped in dynamics that are challenging is the hope that the other person changes. Yeah. Right? So true. But when you say let them, you have to force yourself to recognize this is who this person is. If they're narcissistic as a personality style, that's who they've always been. So let them be that way.

And then something interesting happens. Let me choose. What I'm going to do now that I am recognizing this is what it is, let me choose how much time and energy. This is my favorite thing because I think if people access the Let Them Theory just from online and they don't read. You don't need to buy a book. No, no. We'll tell you everything you need to know. No, but I think they do.

Because I think if you just access it from online and what people are posting, often it is just about the Let Them sign side. People love them. And I feel like the let me is the most important bit. Can I also just quickly recommend the audiobook people. I'm breaking the fourth wall. I'm talking to you. Audio book is so good. It's so different than that too.

It's so you. The energy that you bring throughout the entire book is unbelievable because it must be exhausting. It's not a small book. Yeah, the audiobook's like 12 hours. It's incredible. There's a lot in the audiobook that's not in that book because I riff like crazy. Because I was doing a tooth-pronged attack, listening, reading. And then I'd be like, where's she gone?

She's gone. She's riffing. She's riffing. I'm off. Letter. The audiobook is incredible, they just to say. Well, so the let me. This is really important because everybody loves let them.

And you're going to say, let them, let them, let them. Let them. Let them. Anytime somebody pisses you off, hurts you, stresses you out, it frustrates you. Because people are really annoying. Let them. And you'll then start to feel fully yourself. Because the outside word's not bothering me anymore. I'm very stoic. I'm basically a Buddhist now that I'm saying let them. You know, I just let them. And then you're going to realize after about three or four weeks of just let them do this and let them do that and let them do the other. And I'm better than anyone anywhere and fuck them. And nah, no, no, no, no, no. Then you're going to start to go, wait, I don't have any friends. Wait, I, like, now that I've, like, not calling my siblings, they don't call me back. And then you have to sit with yourself, and that's where the let me part comes. Because it's one thing to stop caring about what other people think, or, you know, I think you should care about what other people think. I think you just have to recognize what you think matters more. and there are going to be times when somebody is disappointed by what you're doing and when you stop and you

understand why, you might actually change your plans because it aligns with your values to change your plans. You just won't be a doormat and a pushover anymore and do it automatically because you're scared people are going to be disappointed. So I think that the thing that happens, though, is that once you sit in your superiority and you judge everybody and you feel more peaceful and superior by saying let them, then you're going to say, wait a minute, if all I ever do is say let them and I'm recognizing that people's behavior is the truth and I'm seeing my friends don't reciprocate and my boss is a jerk and I don't feel like I'm appreciated and my family doesn't reach out. Now I'm really kind of lonely and a little stuck. That's where you have to now start to really

embrace the more important part, which is let me. And let me is very simple. There are three things life you can control. You can control what you think about something. You can control what you do or don't do. And for me, often not doing something is the power move. Don't reply to the email at work. Don't spend 90 minutes typing that stupid email because you're all pissed off about something and then it's maybe hitting send. Yeah. Let me just take a breath and recognize that it's not worth my time and energy. So you can control what you think, you can control what you do or don't do, and you can control how you respond to the feelings that rise up and fall in you. That's it. I used to be the kind of person that let my feelings run me over. And I also was the kind of person who was

very emotionally immature. I could talk a good game, but I would get myself so stressed out about work that I would come home and just vomit all over Chris and the kids and then be like, I'm sorry, really stressful day at work. That's not an excuse to take your emotions out on the people that you care the most about. And we all do it. And so the let me part for me has been incredibly helpful in managing my emotions and noticing when I get frustrated or stressed or whatever and teaching myself how to let emotions and stress rise and fall and not send the text, and not send the email, and not snap. at the kids or quickly apologize if I use a tone of voice that I didn't mean to use and clean that

up. And so it's been wildly effective. And in your relationships, this is the best part of the theory. You know, I wrote this book, you and I have daughters that are largely the same age, and I wrote this book with our oldest daughter, Sawyer. I really want to talk to you a bit about that as well. So I finish what you're saying, but I'd love to talk to you about your experience of Oh my God, we were going to kill each other. Like, it was an absolute, like, this theory works because we had to use it probably 37 times a day with each other. We are the exact opposite. Our daughter has worked for a cybersecurity firm in, like, like, data marketing.

She is an Excel sheet on legs. That's what she is. I am a just crazy lunatic. Like I always use this descriptor that my brain, imagine filling a cardboard box with mice and tipping it over a restaurant. That's what my brain is like. So, yes, imagine, she never wanted to work for me, ever. This was her worst nightmare.

And, you know, it's a long story, but like a lot of 20-somethings, she had an early career, then she went backpacking, came home broke. and I'm like, I got a problem. And she was broke. And so I looped her into starting to do some research on this. And then she's the one that came up with let me. Wow. Uh-huh.

Because when I first discovered this and I started sharing it, I, you know, in my own life and the power of those two words let them, that's all I was talking about. and when Sawyer, you know, came on and needed some money, I'm like, look, I just wrote the first draft of this book and it sucks. Because I thought this book, honestly, I thought the theory was like this thin, you know, it's not that hard, let them, right? What more could, this is modern stoicism. How, how, I thought this was like a book that was going to be like a book that you would buy to put in a bathroom, you know, that's like maybe 30 pages and you just kind of read it like a graduation. speech. That's how I thought how simple this was. But the more we dug into it, and as I wrote the book,

it's like, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them, oh, by the way, the book's not about other people, it's about you, goodbye. It was terrible. And so, I'm at this point where I've turned in the manuscript. I think the book is terrible. She's home, she's broke. This would have been like a year and five months ago, January of 2024. And I said, hey, here's what I want you to do. I did a podcast episode about this. Go to the comments on the YouTube episode and go to the inbox and I want you to do some analysis and tell us what are people saying. Forget about why they like it. We all know why they like it because it makes it feel better than other people. It makes them like, you know, rise above all this shit and not be so stressed out.

Why do they not like it? Where's the pain point? Where is it not working? I thought she would take four weeks. She came back two days later with like a 37 page Excel tab. spreadsheet thing with all this links. And she's like, you can't write the book. I said, what do you mean? I can't write this book. I, of course I have to write this book. Are you kidding?

I've been sharing, there are articles being written about this thing, like, that I'm not even right. Therapists are using it. She's like, mom, people are lonely. People are realizing they're in relationships with people that are toxic, that they're being disrespected at work. People are seeing how their family treats them. Like, you can't put something.

out in the world that makes people with them a problem. Yes. Yeah, wow. And so she's like, there has to be a second part. And I was like, what's the second part? And so then we start talking about how you have to teach them what to do. Once you stop giving all this power to other people, mom, what they say, what they do, what they think, and let them, how do I take it back? And that's where let me was born. And so I'm like, now you're really stuck because now you got to write this with me. And so we literally live together. We work together. we wrote 10 drafts of this book in about 11 months. That's 3,300 pages. We would literally let them, let them, and then I'd get pissed off because she'd want to work out. And I'm like, I can't. I'm a creator.

And I'd leave. And then she'd be upstairs going, let her, let her, let her. And I'd be downstairs going, let her, let her. You know, I can't do this if you're in this mood? Because you know how you get with your kids? Where they're in a bad mood? And then you're like, why are you in a bad mood? And then she's like, I'm not in a bad. And then next thing you're like, that was us writing this book. and by 11 o'clock at night every night, we would be above the garage typing something up, and we'd look at each other and go, this is so good. And what was great about it is because she's in her 20s and I'm in my 50s, we argued over every word. We argued over every story.

And it was almost like you've got to be careful when you write a book about control because the universe hands you non-stop situations that make you use the thing you're working. You get on a plane, somebody's kicking your seat. You go to the dog park, somebody is letting their dog poop everywhere and they're not picking it up.

Like you just like see... Wait, wait, Mel. Yes. Sorry, I would never normally interrupt you, but dog in the dog part with the poop not picking it up, please tell me what you do? It depends on the day. It depends on the day. There are lots of days where I pick it up. There are lots of days where I chase down the owner.

Okay. I'll tell you what, I wanted to pick up that poop and smear it all over her car. Yeah. So there's a story you're talking about in the book. But yes. People will do things all the time. I mean, every single day when you look at the headlines, there's a reason to be upset. But the question you have to always ask yourself is where's the power? is the power in managing the other person and some days you will want to go confront somebody. You will want to speak up about something because it matters enough to you and you have the time and energy.

And then there are going to be times where you go, now is not the time, I am going to let me conserve my energy because I need it to fight the bigger battles. And so one of the interesting things about this is as we were writing the section on love, her boyfriend of two years broke up with her. she comes sobbing.

This is one she thought she was going to marry. She literally was like, what am I supposed to do? Just let him leave. Let him sleep with other people. Let him break my heart. I hate this theory. And so we wrote the entire section about the breakup as she was going through it in real time. And what's interesting about that as a parent or a friend is that when you've been with somebody that's going through

a horrible divorce or they're going through a terrible breakup, all you want to do is take their pain away. And I had to use the theory to let her grieve. Yes. To let her be in a depressive state. To let her have her process. And all I wanted to do was be texting his mother and trying to get them back together. And, you know, I didn't want to have to, like, I didn't want to delete the photos on the frame. I was just like pausing them because I'm holding out. Like I wanted to reassure her, but that actually communicates that you're not strong enough to get through this. And one of the biggest lessons as a parent that this book has taught me is that your kids are so much stronger than you realize. And your job is to let them learn from life while you've got your arm around their shoulder

saying, I am here when you need me. And I believe in your ability to move through this. Because the truth is, if somebody breaks up with you or you're going through a really challenging divorce, it's a mentally healthy response to be in a depressive state. Yes, of course. Yeah. But we're so uncomfortable watching somebody go through that

that we want to take that from them when they are fully capable of moving through it with your support. I would love to talk to you because we've just talked about Sawyer and her helping you on this book, but I feel like there's another whole book that could come from children, but up to kind of teenagers. Then they need to be independent and be their own people and they can read that. But this idea, how can parents help small children using the let them theory? So the main thing that you can use the let them theory for with small children. And one thing I just want to say is this is a book about adult relationships. Yes.

And Dr. Stuart Ablon is one of the 57 world-renowned experts that are cited and were interviewed for this book. And there is a download written by him. He's a Harvard Medical School professor. He is the founder of Think Kids, which is this 30-year-long program at Mass General Brigham, the number one research hospital in the world in Boston. He's a child psychologist. And basically, with little kids, the best thing that you could use the Let Them Theory for is to restrain yourself from trying to fix your children's emotions and let them have the feelings that they have. and validate those feelings. And then as a parent, when you get frustrated or pissed off and you're stressed out,

that you learn how to use the let them theory to let your emotions rise and fall and not take them out on your children. If you can become a more stable and safe, and I'm talking emotional tone person, that is one of the best things that you can do for your kids. I was not that as a young parent. And, you know, it's very hard to be because learning how to understand your emotions and learning how to let them rise and fall and process them as a healthy adult is a skill. And if you weren't taught it and you don't want to learn it, then you don't have it. And so that's one way. But there's a huge guideline in the back that you can download for free that was written by Dr. Stuart Ablon for this particular reason. One of the things I love that you said about your kids is that about always giving them a safe space to be honest, no matter what that truth is. That's a hard one. Because when you say to your kids, you can tell me anything.

And they come to you and tell you something and you're like, what? Like, just, why are you? You just proved you're not a safe person to be with it. So it's like a lot of facial management when that happens. And I'm not sitting here as a parenting expert saying I got it right. Like a lot of the things that I lean into are noticing where I got things wrong and trying to understand where did I go wrong. And a lot of the things that I share, just like you would share, you know, if you and I were in a walk and we're talking as friends, there's stuff I would be sharing about something I'm going through with my daughter. seeking your help as a friend because you maybe went through it with your daughter.

And so I feel like everything that I am sharing is through the lens of my own experience or in an attempt to try to make sense of all the incredible research and scientific information and therapeutic advice so that it is digestible and applicable. But also I think the way that you explain it, and I particularly, find that. Well, with all of your talks and the book, or anything that I've accessed with you in it, is that as a layperson, I get it. It's like you speak my language. And that is so unbelievably helpful. There is one more area that I would really like to touch on because it's something that's massively affecting, well, there's two actually, but maybe we can do two quick ones.

Two quick ones. So the one of them that affects me in a big way and has sort of all my life is that I'm in kind of fight or flight 24-7. Okay. And I used to see it as a massive benefit. Like, great. I've got kind of something extra on other people. Like, I want to work longer. I can handle stress.

I could just go and go and go. I'm like a sort of just like a machine. Yeah. But actually, I have realized that I am operating in just a high state of stress kind of 24-7. I don't want to do that anymore. I know it's not good for my health. Yes. I would like to stop.

How can I use the let them theory for that? Excellent question. The let them theory is a phenomenal tool to teach yourself how to stop allowing the outside world to rev your engine. So I think a lot because I can relate to what you just said, and I think most women can. Yeah. Most of us can relate to this idea

that you have an experience of going through life and that you're on edge. Like you're waiting for the next shoe to drop. You're waiting for the phone call from the kids. You always sleep with your phone in case somebody needs you. You know, you've got parents you're taking care of. You got kids that need you. You got the X, you got this, you got that.

Like, always at the ready. And that is conditioned from your childhood. It's conditioned from society. It's conditioned from feeling the burden of being responsible for everything. And so one of the ways that the Let Them Theory is going to start to help you with that is number one, when you notice that you go on edge. or you start to feel the thought's spin, or you feel it right here,

just say to yourself, take a deep breath, just be like, let them. And you'll notice when you say let them that all of a sudden something comes to mind, something that you were worried about, and it's almost always other people. Might be people that you are responsible for in terms of your family,

might be something going sideways at work, might be something going on where you're waiting for a diagnosis from a bunch of tests for yourself or for a parent. But as soon as you feel that stress and that engine rev up, just take a deep breath and say, let them. And you'll immediately notice what the thing was that you've been worrying about. And so that cue of saying let them anytime you're on edge or stressed creates an awareness for when it's happening. Because I think one of the things that none of us realize is how we are going through life with the engine revved. And it's not until you go on vacation for seven days and then it's the last day where you feel finally like, oh, I can exhale and read

my book and now I got to go back because your nervous system has adjusted to a calmer pace. Yes. And so saying let them, anytime you feel stressed or on edge, starts to create this awareness for how often it happens. Yes. And then don't be alarmed when you start saying let them 30 times a day. Because the default has probably always been to be on edge. What if this? What if this person thinks that?

What if they're pissed off? Oh my God, am I in trouble? What about that text? They haven't texted back. Let them. And the awareness piece is super important because if you don't know it's happening, You can't change it. And so that's step one.

And then I would just do that for a couple weeks. I would not even do the let me part because I think that just recognizing how often you go there is critical. Because what I'm trying to teach you is how to separate yourself and create just a little bit of space. I should probably just a little bit of space between you and the outside world. and here's a simple here's a simple assignment the next time you're at work

or you're going through your day and you realize you haven't had lunch or you haven't gone to the bathroom in an hour or you haven't had any water and you tell yourself no no no it's too busy I don't have time

and I want you to say let them and then I want you to take a five minute break and actually eat something or go the bathroom or have a cup of water. And this comes from an expert who was on our podcast about boundaries. And I know her first name, it's Dr. Puzha. I can't remember her last name. But this is the assignment she gives all of her patients because none of us know how to create a boundary between the outside world and all the demands on us and our internal needs. And so let them is the first step and then take care of yourself for five minutes. And you're going to be like, but I can't, but I got to do this. And you'll see how

everybody else comes before you. And so you're using the theory to separate yourself from the obligation, the caregiving, the constant going and training yourself to tolerate five lousy minutes of just peace for a second. That's it. That's it. That's it. And then after you start to recognize how often you default there, then you can start practicing, let me. Let me take a deep breath. Let me calm myself down. Let me tell myself that right now I'm safe. I'm loved.

I'm okay. It's okay for me to take a walk around the block. It's okay for me not to respond to that thing. And so I would start, though, with the let them part, just to teach yourself that. Because here's what I found. I used to be just like that. And this theory and saying let them and then let me has completely rewired my resting state. I can see that.

Like I can visibly see you are chilled, that you're not that person. No. It's interesting that there's a physical side. Oh, it's energetic. It's energetic. And here's what's interesting. Like I realize now when you're like this and you're gripping the wheel and you pull up to the stoplight of life. Yeah.

And the engine's revving. It's like you're driving the 1970s Volkswagen Vidal or Fiat or something little. You know, and it's like, and it's like that when you're resting. Like you can now pull up in whatever car you want. Yeah. And it just chill at the light. Yeah. And then you step on the gas and go.

Like it just is powerful to know that you're unaffected. affected or you can easily settle yourself when life happens. Because this doesn't turn you into a robot. People are going to piss you off. You're going to sound off about things. You're going to be hurt by, you know, lies that people say about you. And then you're going to remind yourself to let them. I can't control it. And I know the truth. So let me remind myself that I know the truth about myself. So I got to double down on that, even though it bothers me that people think that. And I'm going to finish with this. I'm at a time in my life where talking to girlfriends, male friends, that we are all looking at our friendships in quite an interesting way, because it's

like this idea of living a life that you love and a life that you on your deathbed will be happy to say, God, I've lived a life, I've loved, I'm ready to go. Friends are so important in that because they bring quality, love, laughter, meaning to your life. And I have so many friends who are going through a kind of shift in changing friendships and saying, actually, I want to be more friendly with that person. And I, how can you navigate that part of your life and these kind of shifting friendships? How does that work? It's a great question. Everybody's going through it. And one of the cool things that came up in the research is that adult friendship is very hard because we don't understand friendship. And so I have this theory that I call the Great Scattering,

which is when you hit your 20s, like we're all conditioned to believe that friendship should be easy. And we're all conditioned to believe that you're friends with the people you see the most and that if you don't feel connected to somebody, oh, well, we're no longer friends. And what researching this book taught me is something completely life-changing. Because whether you're feeling that based on your friend group now, that you're growing distant with some people, you want to be more connected to other people, which, by the way, is 1,000% normal and important

and a really good sign of a healthy life. Or you're like I am, and at the age of 50, you up and move from where you raised your kids for 26 years, and you move somewhere that you want to move, but you forget, oh, wait, I'm actually starting over. I got to begin again. I got to like meet new friends at the age of 50. I got to create a new. What? I'm doing this again. And this is going to happen over and over and over again. And so here's what everybody needs to know. First of all, you've got to let people come in and out of your life. Yes. Because friendship as an adult has to be flexible. And the three things that I write about in the let them theory is that there's three conditions or pillars of friendship, I call them. These are the three factors that make friendship possible with anyone. Number one, you have to have proximity. Oh, I'm going to help me here.

You're going to love this. Oh, I love this. Okay, great. You've got to have proximity. Proximity just means we're like close. And when you were little, you were close to people your age all the time. That's why it's easy to make friends. People are going to come and go in your life all the time. And so proximity, how often you see somebody is very, very, very, very important. important. And from the age of 20 to 60, you see the people you work with more than you see your friends and family combined. The second factor is timing. Oh my God, I love this. You have this. This is incredible. Timing is what phase of life are you in, right? Like, are you getting married? So now you're not in the same timing of life as all your single friends or children or children. You have children.

And so you're not in the same. Or are you like, good friends with people at work, but the people at work are in their 60s and you're in your 20s. And so you love them, but you're not, this is why you don't hang out on the weekends. And so the fourth one, or the third one is energy. And you know what energy is about though? What? Energy's about what you're interested in. Yes.

So, here's the thing to understand. If friendships start to fade, before you literally say to yourself, oh, my friendship's ending, what's going on? Before you make it personal, now and forever, ask yourself, has anything changed in terms of how much I see them, proximity? Has anything changed about the timing of life that we're in? Because if we're not in the same timing of life, we're not going to feel as close. Has anything shifted about my energy or their energy and what you're interested? I'm sure when you got sober, the energy shifted a lot with a lot of people that used to hang out with because your energy was going towards something. This is so normal.

people are supposed to come in and out of your life because everybody is supposed to be in different timings of their life. They're supposed to be into different things. They're supposed to be moving around. And so when you understand these three pillars of proximity, timing, and energy, you can understand that people are supposed to come and go. Let them. And then let me be responsible for making the effort to stay connected to people who are not living near me anymore. But I'm still in the same timing and energy. Let me stay connected to people, even though they might not be in the same time of life, and let me not punish them because I don't see them as much. I don't need to have a story that we're not friends. It's just stupid. I really like when you talk about in the book

about approaching people or reaching out to people first. Yes. You know that sometimes, I mean, I would imagine sometimes as Mel Robbins, it might be a bit difficult or you might feel a bit it's self-conscious, but it's like, I've still got to do it. I want to reach out. I want to forge a friendship with you. Yes. I've got to make the effort. Yes. And we've all got to do that. Yes. And actually being friends with someone takes effort. Yes. And I love that. You got to go first. So let them come and go. Let me make the effort. Yeah. Mel, I have just loved talking to you so much. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming on. begin again. You are the queen of beginning again. You've done it again and again. This has been so

inspiring. Well, I'm just getting started. I feel like we're all going to keep doing it because you get to decide what this next year of your life is going to be about. Yes. And every time you make a decision about what you want to feel better about, you begin again. Thank you. Thank you.