Begin Again with Davina McCall - Ms. Jo Malone CBE: From Surviving Breast Cancer to Rebuilding My Life

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Jo Malone CBE opens up about her incredible journey of resilience, transformation, and reinvention. Best known for creating iconic fragrance brands, Jo takes us behind the scenes of her personal battles—from childhood struggles to surviving breast cancer—and how these challenges fuelled her success and growth. Jo candidly shares how surviving cancer not only reshaped her outlook on life but also sparked a new chapter of self-discovery and starting over at 50. With deep reflections on faith, family, and perseverance, she reveals how she rebuilt her life and brand after the hardest moments, and how a renewed sense of purpose drives her forward. In this powerful conversation, Jo talks about the importance of resilience in both life and business, how embracing reinvention can lead to a new beginning, and what it takes to live life on your own terms. This episode is a testament to the strength of the human spirit, the power of transformation, and the belief that it’s never too late to restart. 💬 Drop a comment: What’s your biggest takeaway from Jo’s journey? 👉 Follow us on Instagram: @beginagain 🎥 Watch more on TikTok: @beginagainpod (00:00) Intro (00:01:14) Resilience and Career Shifts (00:03:15) Like & Subscribe! (00:03:34) Growing Up with a Gambling Father and Working-Class Roots (00:07:15) Caring for Family: Jo's Early Childhood (00:12:04) Overcoming School Struggles and Pursuing a Better Future (00:13:16) Jo's Relationship with Her Mother and Moving Forward (00:14:50) Moving to London at 16: Beginning a Career (00:16:05) Faith and Doubt: Jo’s Spiritual Journey (00:18:51) Ancient & Brave Ad (00:20:18) Airbnb Ad (00:21:29) Letting Go of Jo Malone Business and Facing Cancer (00:29:15) Cancer Surgery and Reconstruction Journey (00:32:49) Unexpected Participation in Cancer Treatment Trial (00:35:01) Survival, Hope, and Reclaiming Her Life After Cancer (00:36:26) Losing Her Sense of Smell During Cancer Treatment (00:39:12) Leaving Jo Malone London: A Crisis of Identity (00:42:08) Rediscovering Purpose with Jo Loves (00:46:35) Overcoming Anxiety and Embracing Change (00:53:16) Taking a Gap Year at 60 (00:58:11) Jo and Gary’s Relationship and Support (01:01:26) Smelling Gary’s Illness: A Unique Gift (01:05:33) Expanding Jo Loves and Exploring the Five Senses Sponsored by:Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet  Airbnb - https://www.airbnb.co.uk/host Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I was diagnosed. I could feel my sense of smell disappearing and I just thought my God, I can't tell anyone that. I'm joined alone and I've got a global fragrance company. I remember the teacher said you're lazy and you're stupid and you will never make anything of your life. And I just said, you're absolutely wrong. And I used that humiliation to motivate me. There is no stopping you. I'd like to talk about your breast cancer diagnosis. I just looked at my body thinking I'm never ever going to be attractive again. I'm never going to be able to live my life. We then get to the end of the chemo and I found something and the other one I had to go through it all again. I felt like it was stripped of everything I was.

My darling and husband never left my side. But then something happened. I feel like crying. I don't know why. I'm telling me, thanks. The way the world is at the minute, faith is an important thing. It makes me want to be a better person. I look at my life now and today is all that matters.

Yesterday it's gone. I can't do anything about it. But I can learn from everything. Yes. Ms. Joe Malone, CBE, The Legend. I am so excited to talk to you because I've always loved you and your sense of smell because what you've delivered to us throughout your journey and career has been so overwhelmingly gorgeous.

But I had no idea about the twists and turns that your life had taken, where you'd come from, how hard you'd worked. I had no idea about the turmoil with your business and how Joe loves began. And also about, I had no idea about your new venture, which I'm so excited to talk about. So there's a lot to get out here, Joe. But thanks so much.

No, thank you. I love sharing my story. I love, and because I think one of my biggest aims is always, is if someone listens to me, either in a speaking engagement or podcast or interview, is I want them at that last bit to go, if she can do it, so can I. Yes. And then I feel my job's done. I think a really massive thing I felt about your life when I read about it was that you've been through so many different,

quite traumatic experiences, but they have made you who you are today. And they have created somebody who is so empathetic, I feel, but also who reads people. You know, you talk about your senses quite a lot, that you have an amazing ability to see people as they are. Yeah, I do, I do. Good and bad. Yeah, and that's a gift. Because everybody is of value. I really do believe that.

And everybody has something incredible about them. And life is all about finding what that jewel is. What is that moment where you go, this is the best I've ever been. And I want to be even better. And I think trauma and things that happen, because good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, that is just life. It's how you deal with it. Yes. It's how you deal with, you know, when you meet people and they blame everybody else about for their victim mindset.

This was because of this, they look, that. And it's like, but you can change it. You can change your destiny in a second if you want to. And perfect people don't make great entrepreneurs, if I'm really honest. Imperfect upbringings or first jobs or lack of education. That is what makes great entrepreneurs. I would like to go back actually to Little Joe. And tell me a bit about what your life was like and your first memories.

Oh, I had a really happy childhood. And I grew up on a council estate. And it's so funny when I go around talking now, when I say the word estate, everyone imagines downtown abbey. And it's like, it was far from downtown abbey. And it was a little two up, two down, council estate. My dad worked for Alcan, the double glazing company, and my mom worked for Revlon. and they always had sort of quite a

an angry relationship. There was always a rattle. And I would walk into the house. And if my father said to me, tell your mother, I thought, oh no. And all you want as a child is happiness, don't you? Yes. It was safe and secure.

And I was the adult in that house from 11. I really was. So my father was an absolute brilliant man. He was an artist. He was a magician, but he was a huge gambler. as well. So he would paint pictures and at the weekends I would go with him to the market. I was probably seven or eight. We'd set up a stall and I would send my dad off to go and get breakfast and I knew

within that 30 minutes I had to sell a painting because I knew that we didn't have any money to eat. Oh wow. My mom would say if you don't sell anything today, there is nothing to eat. So I would sell that first painting, put the money in my pocket. and I would hold on to it. Oh, you wouldn't give it to your life. I wouldn't give it to my dad because I knew what he would do on Sunday with it. But he was, I loved everything about my father.

He was kind, gentle, loved animals. I mean, I'm so similar to him. And then he had... Sorry, I just want to unpick a little bit of that because that is so interesting because in a sense, I can hear the love you had for your dad. But at the same time,

he would kind of put your whole family, like you weren't sure whether you're going to be able to eat or not, but that didn't affect how you felt about your dad. No, because I thought everybody lived like that. Oh. I had no idea that, I mean, you wouldn't, would you? You just think that's our life. And, you know, we lived on a council estate

where there were people worse off than us as well. But I think the, my father's sense of entertainment, I just wanted to be with him the whole time. I was trained to be the magician's assistant. I was the Debbie McGee. And when he would go and do magic shows to earn some money, I knew how people were sawn in half.

I had a pet dove called Sukki, and she would appear from a pan of fire. Oh, I loved her. She used to sit on my shoulder and coup in my ear. So I knew all the tricks, and I would help him. And then, of course, the money he would earn, he would then take me to the poker game and that's where it all went wrong every time.

Did you notice then, oh, this is what he does and it's going wrong? Yes, oh yeah. How old were you then? I was at 7, 8. Wow, so young really when you think about it. But he trained me to read marked carts and I had really long hair. So I was sitting in the corner, I'd watch some more playing and I would twiddle my hair to let my dad know what was in there all.

one's hand. And I think about it now, it was so dangerous. Yeah. You know, to, and in my life, I've never gambled. Never. Never had an overdraft of my own. I've never gambled. And because of that memory of what it can do to a family. And I look at it now, Davina, and I think, my poor mum, that's probably why she was so angry. And so she found me a threat always. And, and, I think it was probably because she was really insecure and really unhappy. It is quite a gift getting older and being able to see with hindsight reasons for things. Has that helped you, do you think? I think I don't want to feel bitter, actually.

That's what I don't want in my life. And, you know, because of some of the other health challenges I faced, I was angry as a teenager for a long time. Understandably, you know, I left school with no qualifications. So I felt for a long time, I was like a little old lady in a young body. That's where I had, it was up to me to make sure there was always three meals in the fridge. And it always involved a tin of baked beans, eggs, you know. But we had incredible neighbours and community.

And they would knock on the door because I looked after my sister. I'd pick her up from school, take her back home, cook dinner for her. then I'd have to clean the house and then my mum would arrive back at about 10 o'clock at night and I'd have to have the twin tub ready to go with all the sheets and at 10 o'clock at night I was doing a full wash so that my mum had clinic sheets for the next day you know when I think back on it

11 years old and your sister was five she was quite young she was like a little a little girl to look after she was but again our neighbours would knock on the door and auntie mooring would say oh I I've picked up some lamb chops. You know, it was such kindness.

And it wasn't done, it was just done out of love and kindness and community. It wasn't patronising in any way. It was like literally just, you're a mate, you'd do this for me. Yep. Yeah. No judgment either. Yeah. No judgment.

And still to this day, I have to have three meals in the fridge, even now. Because you never know. And that keeps your feet on the ground. Yeah. And, you know, I'm probably never going to have to worry about another meal in the rest of my life. But it keeps me appreciative of what I do have as well. But I laughed a lot. It was a happy childhood.

Always dogs around. So I love dogs. I love animals. But not a lot of money. That little Joe, I always think it's quite a useful and brilliant thing to remember yourself as this little person but with love. Because she is in you. Yeah. She is you.

Yeah. And she is why you are you now. And that's such a gift. And nothing's wasted. Yeah. You know something, I truly believe that in my life. It's like what, if I looked again at my life, would I change anything? I wouldn't.

I really wouldn't. And I changed some of the things I've said to people. I was thinking when I was learning about you and falling in love with you a bit, right? I was like, but she doesn't regret anything. I bet even though some of it's been really hard, it's all been okay. You've made it. It's made me who I am. And actually all the pieces, and we are a product of our upbringing.

We are a product of our family. And when I look at my son Josh now, I look at him and I just think he is a product of the love that we have as a family. And he believes he can do anything, absolutely anything. So we have such a responsibility to equip them with a life toolbox of ways to behave and things that will help them. And I had to create my own toolbox from the age of seven. I'm going to be interested like how, because you were talking about, in a sense, I feel exactly like you that my upbringing made me want to be a different mother to the mother that I had. But what I love about you is that you said, you know, I could, I've enabled Josh to have a life and be the mum where he wants to, he could do anything.

He feels that. But you actually did end up feeling, you did so many amazing things when you were little. But do you think you had that in you? Or do you think it's, it's your upbringing and how you had to fight for everything. Survival. Yeah. Honestly, I didn't think I was this, I remember being, because I'm severely dyslexic as well, like letters run around on the pages. So I spend a lot of my energy trying to pull the letters together to form the word.

And by the time I've done that, everyone is so far ahead of me. And I remember being at school once in a school exam. And I cheated because I was a multiple choice and I thought, I just don't want to be last again. I just don't. I felt so humiliated, but I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia at that point. And I was caught cheating and the teacher said, Joe Malone, stand on your chair. And she said, you're lazy and you're stupid and you will never make anything of your life.

And I just, that young kid, I thought, you're wrong. You're absolutely wrong. I could probably run faster in business than you ever could, even at the age of seven. And I used that humiliation. to motivate me and saying to myself, I will change my, I'm not going to grow up here. I'm not going to raise my family here. I'm going to be happy and strong. I'm not lazy.

I'm not stupid. I just have a different way of getting to a destination. And that's really where my determination started. And that's when the problem started. What problem? The rub with my mum. So it was when you found hope for your future and the little light went on, That was a problem for your mouth.

Wow. And I took control back. Wow. And she knew that she couldn't control me in the way. And I loved my mom very much in a different way to my dad. Yeah. But I did love her. And when we were very young, she was such a loving, wonderful human being.

Something happened. I don't know what that was. Something happened to change her. At the age of 11, she had a severe mental breakdown. and I was the one that nursed her. When you were 11. I was 11. I didn't go to school for about six months.

And every time social services would come round, I would pretend that my dad had just nipped out or, you know, my mom. And I slipped through the cracks, which is why I never finished school. But I was her carer and I looked after her. And when she came back from that and then she had another breakdown, she was never the same person. And she looked at me. She was angry.

And I can understand, do you know what? I have no anger or bitterness. I look at it now and I think, you poor woman, what you must have gone through. And but as a young child, it was her responsibility to look after me, not the other way around. But when she came back, I think she looked at me and she thought, that's the life I wanted. And it was right before her every single day. Yes. She didn't mean to be mean to me.

she just wanted the life that she could see I was taking hold for myself. So I left school at 15, no qualification, didn't even sit, exams. Nothing, absolutely nothing. And went to work in a flower shop. And that's where I really started to find Joe and this different identity and this different person. Yeah, the smells. But I didn't realize at that point. So I got my first job and I needed to live in London because we were living in Barnhurst.

And my mum had a friend and she said, look, very happy to have Joe come and live here, should be sharing a room with another girl. And they just were, they had this beautiful big family house and they were a Christian family. And I had never sat at a table and had dinner every evening. I'd never had Sunday lunch in that way. And I remember the first time she served artichokes and I just didn't know what an artichoke and what to do with her. You like. So it was full of love. It was full of freedom and to be able to find myself.

And it just opened up this incredible world for me. And we would go to church every Sunday. So that was how I got involved with the youth group. What did you like about it? Family. Yeah. Honestly, for me, it's one of the Solomon's riches. And they don't have to be birth family.

You just have to feel comfortable in the plate. and you can just be yourself, you can let your guard down, no one's going to judge you. And the church gave me, we had a youth group, so I used to help with the youth group. That's purpose, isn't it? Like when you can help? I wanted to help other people.

Yeah. And I'd come, by that point, I'd really found my feet. And my first job, I loved my first job in. It was just into blanks, and that's where I got fired. But anyway. Yeah, they just gave me that platform. And you know what? When you're in that, when you've come from a background. And I used to go home every weekend, by the way. I used to go home and see mum and dad. And it was so much happier. But I was so much stronger. I was not going to be manipulated by a situation. But, you know, sometimes mum and dad would be together. Sometimes they'd separate. So I never knew what I was going back to. But I always knew by Sunday evening, when I'd get on that train, I was going back to something stable. Yeah.

That family you moved in with in London really were a godsend like. Yeah, they were. Well, literally. They helped you find your faith, which has helped you through your life at various times, I'm sure. I struggle with my faith a bit now. Yeah. So why is that? I don't know.

I don't know, actually. It's not that I don't believe, but I don't know. I don't know. It's really interesting you said that because I was brought up a Christian, my granny and I went to church every Sunday in the church choir and then I found it again when I got clean and I went to the church next door to my flat in London

and did a bit of Sunday school Oh I bet you were great So but it's quite weird these parallels But as I've got older I too have I would say now rather than being religious I have faith Yeah I do I do

And I'm not sure where it's What it's in I just think the way the world is at the minute, faith is an important thing. And whatever that means to each person. But it makes me want to be a better person. Yes. I want to do good because it's the right thing to do. I want to do good because I feel my life is so great.

I want to see others. And that is, you know, the whole point of religion. And I don't like the thought of just saying, we're right and everyone else. is wrong. I really don't. Ladies! Hey, come here. I have just found out a major, major secret.

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And it's like it's out of your hands. There's something bigger. And I'd like to talk about your breast cancer diagnosis. And where were you at in your life when that's? happened? So we had built our first business and within five years to the day, we had sold it to the Estée Lauder, the Estre Lauder Corporation. And I was 36, 37 years old. And honestly, we went from sleeping on a piece of blue foam. So the council estate followed us all the way through. And we had very little money, but we'd started this business. Gary was in building,

surveying, we've gone in together and we said, look, give it a year. And if it doesn't work, we'll go back to what we do. But it did work and we did sell the business. And the first thing we did was buy a double bed. That night was so strange sleeping in a double bed because we slept on foam. And both of... Sorry, can I just quickly go back. So you sold your business five years after you started it, but you were still living on a phone mattress five years in. So you weren't taking money out of the business, you're just plowing it all back in? We were, yeah, absolutely. But I was still doing faces at the pipe. So I was a facialist, making face creams and etc. But in that five years, you have a pool of money and you think,

okay, can I take a little bit out? And if I do, then we can't do that, that and that. And actually, Joe Loves is in the same situation. I don't take a salary from Jeff's. I earn my money in other ways. But yeah, so we were sleeping on a piece of blue foam. I could remember it. I used to scent it every night. I just thought, even if I'm sleeping on the floor, it's going to smell good. But it is interesting.

That is important. To me it was. Yes. To me it was. Somebody who loves smell. I mean, I'll talk about senses later, but. But it was an empty room. I mean, I filled my home, and I still do, with fragrance.

I don't need lots of things. I just need a good smell. So anyway, and then we sold our business. And it was, we lived for a year like kings and queens. We did. And I had, I'd fallen pregnant. And I had hyperamesis. So I was sick for, you know, that kind of, oh, my goodness.

Oh, you're pretty thing. But like for nine months, nine months. So I was seven stone two when I had Josh. Oh. And he popped out, healthy as can be. And I was really poorly for it for a little bit. But within eight weeks, I was back on the road. I wanted to get back to work.

You know, I am not somebody to sit on a beach the whole time. I love doing something. And I started to, within a year, I started to feel really tired and really poorly. And I was in New York. And we were shooting this amazing, we called it a magalog, I think it was, like a catalogue and a magazine. And we were shooting it. And I just, one day I just thought, oh, I feel so weak.

There was a tiredness that wasn't normal. I was 38 years old. And I went back to the hotel. I had a shower. And I found a lump. Just here was about that big. Oh, big. I don't know how I hadn't.

It didn't hurt. Yeah. And it wasn't. And it moved. Went home, had it checked out. And my lovely doctor, who's still my doctor today, said, I think we need this scanned. So I said, okay, well, I'm going to go to a party tonight. He said, no, we need this scan now.

Oh. And he sent me. I was very lucky enough to. And actually when you hear that, the quicker you can get that diagnosed, the less anxiety, because you know what you're dealing with. And so I had it scanned and I saw the nurse's face and she said, excuse me, I'm just going to go and I'll be back in a second and I knew at that moment. Then the doctor came in and said, we're just going to take you upstairs and have a little chat.

And he said, we can see by the scan, it's cancer. because it had jagged edges. It wasn't like a cyst, well, I shouldn't say these things because I'm not a doctor, but he said to me, if it was like a round pebble, it was probably not a tumour,

but they could see the jagged edges on it. I had all the scans for the next seven days, which was horrendous, you know, has it gone? And every time I went in one of those machines, anyway, by the end of it, he said, look, you have in a very aggressive form of breast cancer. we're going to need to do a lumpectomy straight away

and I remember coming home that evening and I called Evelyn Lauder the wonderful late Evelyn Lauder Wow And I said Evelyn Made you call her Because she headed the breast cancer campaign She was the pink ribbon

I mean that woman Oh wow was she? I didn't know that Legacy to this world Although so many women are alive today because of the amazing Evelyn Lauder. And I called her and I remember her first thing and she said, remember honey, you make lemonade from lemons. And I said, what does that mean?

And she said, yeah, sometimes the Swedish thing in your life comes with huge bitterness and a war you have to fight. Anyway, I jumped on a plane the next morning. I went to New York. Thank God I did because I would not have survived on normal chemotherapy. Was that on her advice? Did she know something there? come and see Dr. Larry Norton

and Dr. Larry Norton is the man who saved my life along with his team. And I walked in, they looked, he looked at all the scans, my bloods and he said, okay, we are going to do a lumpectomy tomorrow.

I mean, it was really, really quick in, they did the lumpectomy and then they called me seven days later and they said, you have DCIS. And I said, what does that mean? thing and they said ductal carcinoma in situ. So even if we take this, it's going to come back. So you're going to need a mastectomy. Gary fell on the floor. It was so, it was so awful and he cried.

I was so shocked. I didn't know what. And I said, no, let's do the test again. You're wrong. I mean, you just can't believe it's happening. You've been in the same situation. And I was operated on seven days later. And I went into severe depression like anxiety. I got. I didn't want to talk. I didn't want to see Josh. I didn't. And I just looked at my body thinking, I'm never, ever going to be attractive again.

I'm never going to be a woman again. I'm never going to be able to live my life. And is it going to, I mean, so many things. And then they said, you're going to start chemotherapy almost immediately. So I had this cage in my chest called a tissue expander. And I used to have, it was just every day was a day fighting for my life. for nearly 18 months. Did the first lot of chemo very, very poorly, lost all my hair.

And that's where I felt like it was stripped of everything I was. My darling and husband never left my side. He was there every time I was in intensive care every seven days where my white cells would drop. I got everything, I got shingles, you name it, I got it. And it was just grueling. Anyway, we then get to the end of the chemo and they're going to reconstruct me. I found something and the other one. I had to go through it all again.

And then I had the other one taken. I just said, take it off. I'm not going to live my life like this, wondering. Isn't that fascinating that you'd gone from, oh no, please don't. This is me to just go. I'm not living my life like this. What helped you get there? Because I think, again, women, it is common for women to get breast cancer.

at some points relative. It's like one in seven of us. One in three. Oh, one in three. So one in three, you know. That's why it's important to go and get your scans because early detection will often meet a complete cure. But you were quite young.

I mean, I don't think women get scanned at 30. They should do. 38, 39. They should do, right? We should be looking at breast health, prostate health, all of those things and get yourself checks. I could sit here all day and chat to you. AI is going to be a huge advantage in this.

So that is another conversation. And actually now when I was diagnosed with cancer, which was 21 years ago, a long time ago, the survival rate is so different now. Why? Because of early detection. Why? Because of people like Dr. Larry Norton

and the Memorial Sloan Kettering and the Marsden Hospital all working together across the world with AI to find solutions and you know you can go on and live your life but going back why did I say just take it off because there was still that woman that wanted to look great in a swimsuit and I know that sounds really stupid can I just say I don't think any woman here would ever agree with you on that it does not sound stupid oh okay I totally fickle or something No, I just get that. I wanted to look good.

I wanted, and I thought, okay, I met this amazing plastic surgeon, part of the cancer hospital called Dr. Joseph Disa. And he was so, still is, very good looking. And I thought, if there is anyone going to be rebuild me, it's going to be, we called him Dishy, Disha. And I thought, right, I'm going to choose him. And so once I'd gone through all my treatment and my chemo and my hair had come back, I'd then had two cages. I looked like Dolly Parton by the end of it. They were out here. And I did not want to have, you know, huge bosoms at all.

I just wanted shape. And I wanted to be able to wear. And so I went to see him. And in I go for the operation. And he said to Gary, it'll be about 45 minutes. I have silicon implants in at the minute and she'll be out two and a half hours. And Gary's like, what's going on? And when I woke up, I said, Dishy, what happened?

He went, you know what? I know you. and if they had not been perfect, we would have been back in next week. So he said, we got you up. And we did Hortenek, strapless. Yep, down we go. Getting them all fitted properly. Honestly, I, Gary and I did a message to all our friends saying,

we'd like to announce that we've given birth to two new bouncing baby girls. I've got so many baby grows. They thought we had to be. I was talking about my boobs in sense of humour. I've never regretted it ever, ever, ever. And honestly, might have been in 21 years. I'm probably going to have to have the switch quite soon now because they shouldn't stay in.

I've never had a problem. I'm able to wear anything I want. And I'm going to go into my coffin, you know, when I'm 90 years old, with a perfect set. So I choose to not allow it to, but I think when you're going through that process, It's hard. It's hard. It's very, very hard. But for me, what was important for me was to look at the end goal. But the real point, the real excitement of this story is Dr. Larry Norton came to have, came to a speech in Dubai just recently. And he came and had dinner. I just adore him so much. And he said, now I'm going to tell you the real story. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, when you walked into my room, I knew that if you'd gone on to normal key, chemotherapy, you would never have survived.

It was so aggressive. He'd never told me that time. And actually, what was the point in telling me that? No, because then you lose the will. You lose the hope. Yeah. And the hope, yeah. And so the protocol he put me in, which is normal protocol today now, by the way,

which was called dose density chemotherapy. So what they do is they bombard your body. I had it every seven days for 18 months, every seven days in my body. He chose 30 women worldwide. who he knew would never survive and put them on this new protocol. I knew it was a new protocol. I didn't know it was that new.

Today, every one of them is alive. So if you have been diagnosed with breast cancer today, you have to take hope in that. The chemo and the dose density and the therapy and the protocol, we took people are surviving breast cancer and going on and living. It would never have done it. All because of the incredible work

that research does in cancer. And of course, that dose density doesn't just affect breast. It's everywhere. Ovarian, all of those things. You know, and we're seeing these protocols kind of really. Isn't that amazing? I just sweat. When did you find that out?

Like, about three months ago. You found out that you nearly died three months ago. No, I, 21 years ago. But you knew that it was fatal 21 years ago. I knew it was fatal, but I did the chemo. and I've been clear ever since. Right, so you just thought this was normal? I thought, yeah, I didn't realize that only 30 of you had happened.

Yeah, and they tested it. But that's why we have to live our lives. And when somebody tries to take your life or a day away from you, if somebody takes one hour of your life, take two back for yourself. And yes, we had to go through that. And why did we get it? I've no idea. You know, I lived a pretty clean life.

And I don't think cancer really cares about any of that. No. But to hear positive stories of people that survived. I had this lovely woman called Stacey Kaplan, who was my friend in New York and she had gone through it and she was two years all clear. She was invaluable to me. Why?

Because she gave me hope. And hope, you know, what is the greatest faith, hope or love? I believe hope is the greatest, actually. because hope gives you another day and it gives you that motivation to want life more than anything and yeah and it's I never let cancer be the book it's only a chapter in my life I kept it in a chapter I boxed it and I'm not frightened of it anymore the first year coming out was a bit scary

because I couldn't take to Moxifen or anything but of course now I understand why I didn't because I was on this protocol. Hair came back, life came back, but what I told nobody was it'd taken my sense of smell. So that's what it had. And I hadn't told Larry, I was so ashamed because Joe was so ashamed. Oh, Joe, that's... I was so ashamed.

But cancer can often do that. It shames you. It wants to make you feel that you're not worth it. And we are. And we have, in reclaiming your life, it can be, very liberating but very challenging, but of course I had the chemo. I could feel my sense of smell disappearing. Could you?

And I just thought, my God, I can't tell anyone that. You know, I'm Joan Malone and I've got a global company. Have you ever read perfume? Yes. Yeah, peat and so good. It's so good. How good is that book? That's you.

That scent, smell. Well, I don't try and capture the scent of virgins. No, no. But I think when I read your story, that was the first thing I thought about. I read that book when I was quite young. I've always thought I've got quite a good sense of smell, but it's nothing like yours. And I want to talk about how important at that time when it started to go, how much had you fallen in love with your sense of smell and what did it give you? Well, I was in love with my sense of smell from a very young age.

So it was my compass in life because of my dyslexia. So I could navigate life. It's my language. It's my emotions. And I also have synesthesia as well. So explain what that is. Is it a medical term or is it something? So it is a medical term.

It is. And when I had my brain scanned in those last scans, the doctor came out and he said, you have a very large hippocampus. Thank you. And you don't know it's in your head. And the hippocampus. part of your brain. I'm joking. It's funny though.

I love that. Humor is in full sense. If you don't laugh, you cry. Yeah, exactly. Hibocampus is the primeval part of your brain. And people with dyslexia, dyspraxia, that is often a very active kind of part. And it probably explains my dyslexia. But my brain, and he said, explain to me other things. And I said, but my brain is sort of wired when I see colour, like, I can smell fragrance

on you're sitting on that chair. Tell me. So you're sitting on a skin of a nectarine, a mango, and pink pepper, crushed peppercorns like cologne, lemon grass, a little bit of, probably a bit of cedarwood in there as well. I just tell you, weirdly, cedarwood, lemon grass, citrus are all my favourite tones. Well, there you go. Isn't that funny that you have to sense that? But I've smelt it from the minute we started talking, whereas you sat down. And so, but when I think about it, it disappears, but it's there with me the whole time.

And it whispers in my ear like, like these walls. I could paint it with fragrance with my paintbrushes and the whole room would smell of, anyway. So that's what Sinicier is. That was still with me, but I could only smell it in my imagination. I couldn't physically smell. And that was the big reason I left Estée Lauder and Jome, in London. So I don't know when people know this, but I've been out for over 23, years. I have nothing to do with the company at all. Very proud of what it's achieved, but it's not me.

No. And when I... But you talk about that company being in your name and leaving that behind and what that felt like, because I think a lot of women, even going through a divorce or something like that, might identify with this kind of loss of identity. Well, I'd face that through cancer, then I'd faced it through my loss of smell. And when I walked away from that company, I had no sense of smell. A month later, I was sitting at home, woke up one morning, my sense of smell came back overnight.

Can I just quickly ask you something? I've just had like a big... Yeah, yeah. Do you think that leaving was the catalyst to bringing the smell back? There was something in your head. Oh, my goodness. I've never thought that.

To let, oh, I just feel like crying. I don't know why. Like, that you left something behind and you were gifted something. And I get the gift came back again. Oh my gosh, I've never, ever thought of that. Because it came back overnight. Yeah. And I said, Gary, have you opened the fridge?

And I was three floors up. And he went, yes, how do you know? And it was like, I can smell, I can smell. And then it came back with, actually it came back so differently and with a vengeance. Like, I could smell everything. Like, not the way I did before. It was more heightened. I could smell the tiny crumb of bread on the, it was like.

Oh, well, this is perfect. It was, yeah. I mean, now I'm used to it again. But when you haven't had something and then it comes back to you. And it was, I got my life back. I can be Joe again, but I was in a five-year lockout. Oh! And that five years, so I couldn't do anything with it.

Oh! So the five years. a lockout, I got anxiety. I mean, severe anxiety. And even though I could smell now, and I was still Joe, couldn't do anything with it. I would prowl around. And we had five years. Wait, wait. Can you just describe Joe prowling around for me? Oh, I'd clean everything in the kitchen. I was like in a clean. I always had a bottle of sort of Ajax or whatever in my hand. I say vodka. I'll talk about that later.

And I tried to do other things. I did a TV show which was called Built. No, what's it called? High Street Dreams. High Street Dreams. High Street Dreams. I did a show there. I did all kinds of things and it's like, all I want to do is create fragrance.

And I knew I was brilliant at it. We look back and five years went. But actually when you're in it, one year is an epic amount of time. Yes. But five. I had a five-year-law. But I'd sold my company.

Yeah. We'd shaken hands. And actually, you know what? Today we all have to sign things. If you shake hands on something, you agree it. Do it. Be full of integrity. Okay.

So we did. To the day. To the day. And then when it was over, it was like, I've got to start again. Because if I hadn't, I was living half a life. I had to find Joe again. And so we started. I quickly ask you.

Yes. You said I had to find Joe. I had to find Joe. But you didn't have your name anymore. Like, what do you do then? Well, actually, it's been more of a struggle recently than it was in the beginning. Because they own the name of the brand, but I was still the person. Yes, of course.

And to be honest, if someone was to say, you know, Joe Malone, I'd turn around. That's my name. Yes. I know it's, that's how we identify. ourselves. So, and in the beginning, it was, it was perfectly all right. You know, we made sure, when we started Joe Loves, we made sure that it was all very clear. We went to their lawyers, showed them the business from day one. They didn't like this. They didn't like that. So we took a couple of things and then we got on and we did it. And, um, well, that's a really different

way of going about business, right? Yes, yes. That's a very, well, in, yeah, full of integrity. Well, it's better to be truthful and honest. Yes. And get it out on the table. Anyway, and then we continue to build Joe Loves. The first year was excruciating. I got everything wrong. And again, I'm really happy to share that because sometimes you'd think, oh my goodness, you've got everything right the first time.

Second time, distribution wrong, packaging wrong. The only thing I got right was the fragrances. And I thought, okay, we've got to return here. You've got to be agile. So, you know, when I talk about either win or a learn, that was a big learning time. Yeah. And it was quite expensive. And it was a lot of pivoting.

And then we found Elizabeth Street. And it was my birthday. Gary gave me a little key. This is absolutely mega. I have. It's so good. There's a picture. Of you outside the shop.

Yeah. And then just remind me of the name of the first. Just in the blank. Just in blank. Look at him. You were, what, 17, 16, 16? I was 16. This was, I was 16.

Your first ever job. I worked in the flower shop and I got fired. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Look at the first packaging, that. So mega. My goodness.

How awful is that? I don't, I rather love for it. No, that was a big mistake. But then we came for Circle and I walked into that shop. Here. Yeah. Yeah. I walked into that shop and I thought, I've been here before.

I've worked here. And Gary, Gary, of course, knew. And I walked in and I felt the shop say, you will change the world again in this place. And you will build a global brand. And I felt like the wars were not in an eerie way, just the spirit of creativity was there. And we opened, I think, six months later. But it's the same. Love Gary.

I love Gary. And, oh, so do I. So he's a real visionary. But often in life, he's a real visionary. But often in life, life will bring you back full circle to where you first started. And when life does that, that's a gift. That really is because what life is saying is try again. Yeah.

Try this again because this time. And, you know, Joe loves has been a struggle. The use of my name has caused me great anxiety, to be honest. Because I have had anxiety before. Is it a new thing that came when you sold the business? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And I went through, so I went through a time. It wasn't just about my name.

It was about, I've always grown up trying to do the right thing, honestly. And second-guessing yourself, you can call me anything you want. I can't use my, I can't pick up a bottle of fragrance and say my name. And so I second-guess myself the whole time. And I don't want to harm anybody. I don't want to fight. I just want to build. and I want to create

and I want to do it respectfully but I won't go away either I'm not going to be pushed in a corner and told I can't be Joe no one is going to take that right for me I'm still going to be the person and I'm still going to build and create and this strength

this mantle of strength has really come upon me and going through anxiety with like what is it when your heart really breathes? Heart petations no it's called when you have panic attacks oh panic attacks yeah and I remember on my birth

a few years ago, I collapsed in a panic attack, rushed to hospital. My blood pressure was literally through the roof. And stayed in hospital for six days. They couldn't find anything. And then this wonderful doctor called Dr. She's called Anna Albright. And she is a cognitive therapist. And she said, you need help, Joe.

You do. You can't do this on your own. And between her and Dr. Elsa Epan. And I take a little pill. I take the tiniest milligram. I was so reluctant to do it. I didn't want to do it. I felt like I went to be in control.

And my body started to rebalance itself. And I was still having panic attacks, but I was getting better and better. Yes. And then I went to Dubai. How long ago? This is four years ago. Went to Dubai for a holiday and still having these anxiety. Not as bad, but I still couldn't get rid of it.

Because every day I go, I've got to control this. And of course, that's the worst. thing you can say. In a sense, that's... You can't. That's anxiety, isn't it? You can't control it. No. So you've got to just, you know it's not going to kill it. You've got to let it go. But that's so hard.

Because it's always... It's always in your mind. But that's where creativity comes in because it takes focus your mind onto something else. So I'm sitting there and I thought I've got to break the pattern. I've got... I know I'm meant for something really big in this world. And actually, I haven't achieved it yet. I know I haven't, but I know it's pretty close.

I can feel it now four years on. And I said to Gary, should we come and live here for six months? Just six months. Let's just see if we just change. And sometimes when you're suffering, it's not that you have to go and change the country you're living in. Just have to change, you know, the carpet or pull the rug from under your own feet and just change something. And actually the perspective suddenly changes. And he said, yeah, why not?

Josh was in uni. Can I just say one other thing. I think the other thing that I love about you is change is generally speaking to people terrifying. And here you are with anxiety and you're going. Let's just change. And we've had a couple of people on here have done that big thing. And I love hearing about it because it's something that we all are a bit scared of doing big change. But it's where the real liberation.

Yeah. Liberation comes. And also, if you're stuck, it takes big change. but then something good's going to come out of it. It doesn't have to be big change. No. So I was talking to someone amazing yesterday and we were talking about could we start a kind of movement of a billion breakthroughs across the world. And what is your breakthrough today?

So it doesn't matter how old you are, where you come from, how poor or rich you are. It doesn't matter what. What is your breakthrough? Could we create in 24 hours a billion breakthroughs for the entrepreneurial world? Yes. And the answer is yes. Yes. So my, I mean, anyway, so my breakthrough on that day, and this was a big one, I looked up and I thought I've got to break the cycle of anxiety.

And I looked up and there were people jumping out of planes. And this was so out of character. And I said to Gary, should we do that tomorrow morning to seal the deal? And we did. and I went this was so out of character of me it was unbelievable and not everybody has to jump out of a plane

by the way but for me it needed to be something big I just knew Mike I knew who I am and I needed to prove to myself that I was bigger than my fear and so we go up in the plane I was strapped to an Egyptian rugby player

called Tarik nothing was going to happen on his shift so we all get into this little plane We're all strapped to our, you go down with somebody. Yeah. So in I am. And he said, we're first out. And I can't tell you.

He says, okay, he straps you in, tightens you up. And I'm going, tarry, I know, I've changed my mind. So he goes, hold on, hold on. He opens the door. And all I can see is open sky and clouds. And I go, no, no, I've changed my mind. He went, too late, honey, and just nudged me. And out you went.

And we free fall for 8,000 feet. I wish somebody had told me, you have a cameraman with you to close your mouth I look like Wallace and Gromit come in all the way down and then they put you go down 8,000 feet

and my heart was banging and he pulls the parachute and I swear to God I felt the anxiety's gone and as I came down and from this day I left that fear in that plane

I've still had panic attacks but nothing I faced something in my life and I thought now I can do it anything. And from that minute my life really started. Four years. And now four years on, living in Dubai with the adventures. I am the bravest girl I've ever been in my life and the happiest. And why do you, why that's so fascinating. So firstly, can I ask you how old

you are now? I'm 61. So at 61, you've become the bravest girl. The bravest girl and happiest. I feel, I wake up smiling and I live on the beach. I know that seeing the sunset on a beach is, I call it my blue office and I'm happy, very happy near water. I'm thriving in my personal life. I think Gary and I call it our gap here at 60. Talk me through that because I read about that. And a gap here at 60 is the greatest idea ever,

along with the billion breakthroughs. Breakthroughs and a gap year. This is how you go into the next chapter of your life in really good shape. Because I think because we still feel there is so much event. I mean, every day we look at each other and go, what's going to happen today? And I have amazing friends in Dubai and lots of expats, lots of, I love everybody together. So lots of Emerity friends And it's

One of the most happiest places I think I've And I call it home now, it really is home London is not home for me Dubai is home And where my creative businesses as well But I look at it And I just think

When we were kids You didn't have a gap here Did you? You either went to university If you were smart Didn't do that Or no did I Or you went to work

Yeah So we never had any of that And I just thought And we work every day. So it's not like a gap here like we travel around the world. We pack our cases and we look at each other and go, where should we go and live? So we lived in Lake Como for a month. And we set up office within eight hours.

We got the hotel room or wherever we're staying, the villa. We live in Zanti for a month. Actually, two months. Zanty. It's quite wild. Oh, it's beautiful. Overlooking the sea, little Greek village. And I sit.

I take 100 notes with me. I sit and I smell every day. I do my Zara collection. Wait, just explain. Just explain about notes. Notes. So notes are like a note in music. Like, whew, who.

Fragrances is exactly the same. So we'll have top notes, middle notes, bass notes. But a note is an accord. So what I do is I take lots of accords. I twirl them around. I'll sort of put them all over the villa somewhere and I'll go and smell them every hour. So my studio is,

I'm living. So you could literally work from anywhere. We do. We do. If you take the next with you, you can go anywhere. You set up an office. So your gap here is just going wherever you want to go,

whenever you want to go. What do we want to do? Where do we want to go? Where do we want that creativity? So we've just launched a fragrance called Love from Como, and it was based on my month living in Lake Como. And the view on the bottle, I think actually we'll send you some, is the view from the window where I stayed.

That's amazing. So we would work from seven in the morning to about two, have some lunch, get in the car, drive around and find inspiration. And we find the little, we found so many beautiful places. And I remember one day we drove and we had a tiny little car and off we went. And I went, stop, stop, stop. I can see the lake and there's a little hotel. So we go in and there's flowers everywhere. I mean, it was so beautiful.

Food was delicious. But they'd shut the hotel for a wedding. And we were sitting there having a drink. And we went, oh, no, no, no, no, don't worry. We'll find somewhere else. And she went, just stay. And so we sat and watched someone else's wedding. The boat arrived and the family were just divine.

You stayed for someone else's. That's so, you were wedding crashes. That's so good. We were in shorts, sitting and having our lunch. It was just, and it was so generous of them. Yeah. So great. I've got goosebumps.

That I think is make somebody else's moment. Yeah. As well, that was kind of them. They didn't have to do that. Yeah. But Lake Homer was one. Wonderful. Zanti, we've done... Just very quickly, for anybody that's watching or listening,

what I love about that is 60's a perfect time to do a gap year. But I know I'm going to keep working because I like working. Working keeps me going in my brain. Maybe work, you know, quiet down a bit, but maybe not, you know. But what I like is you've incorporated your gap year with work. It's just that you can go wherever you want to go. You're free. That's what I'm hearing. And most people, you know, they work all their life and then they retire.

I'm not, I don't like the word retire. No. I'm never going to retire. No. Ever. But, you know, if that makes you happy and what I would love, the things I want to do, that I just think, then do it. What if?

What are you waiting for? So the adventure begins and that step of a billion breakthroughs starts with two words. Yeah. What if. And the next two are if I could. What if I could? That's where it starts. That's your breakthrough today.

We could have a billion breakthroughs today if only you were to say, what if I could? Then it's up to you. Can I talk to you about Gaz quickly? Yes. How long have you guys been married? Forty years. I mean, unbelievable. He's so wonderful.

And you're still saying that after 40 years? Well, I think. how, yes, I'm gosh, yeah. That's that mega, Joe. I'm in love with that man. And I don't, I mean, I feel like, I mean, I feel like I'm in my 30s at the minute. I know I'm not. I know I'm not.

You look at them. I feel like I'm in my third. I'm living my best life. So he and I grew up as young kids, had nothing. And by the way, Gary's. How did you meet? Oh, my goodness. I want everything.

Give me everything. We met a Bible school. We've had our moments like anybody. Well, that's comforting for people to hear. Well, not everything has gone, you know, we've had our moments and when I went through anxiety, you know, it was really hard for him. And then we've had illness. He's had a life-threatening condition as well.

So we've, but we've come through all that. I don't think there is a secret. I don't think there is. It's, I wake up every day and I always go, good morning. And we wake up with a smile. And it's not that we're always happy. It's just I want to start the day positively. I think we allow each other to be who we are.

So although we work together, we're in separate spaces. But I kind of, I love him, but I love his company. And we laugh. You like him. I really do. And, you know, we don't have date nights or planned date nights or anything. But, you know, Josh has grown up now. And we look at, I think we're really appreciative of our life.

And we're at a part of our life now where we know we're. in the third semester. We're in the third trilogy. In the trilogy, we're in the last bit. I mean, let's be honest. I want to make it count. And when I look and I think, honestly, I don't look at anyone else and want to be with anyone else.

I love being with him. And I remember recently I was flying back to Dubai and my battery went on my phone and the plane was delayed. And I arrived four hours late back to the hotel in Dubai. And he was besides himself because he couldn't find me. And I've never seen him like that. And he went, oh my God. And he ran towards me, put his arm to him.

He said, I thought something had happened to you. And it was such a beautiful kind of moment. I said, I'm sorry, but it was my phone. And I could see he thought for a second he'd lost me. And but he is an incredible human being. He is. And he's kind, he's funny. Not perfect.

And neither am I. And just, I think you have to allow people to be who they are. Yeah. And, you know, if someone's having a bad day and he's having a go or I'm having a go, I normally just take myself off down the beach and I'll sit there and read a book or makes notes. I sometimes take myself out of the situation and never hold onto a grudge. Never. It's not worth it.

And nothing can be that, well, no, sometimes things are that bad. But we've never done anything to give each other. But I'm every day. Just take every day. as it comes. Yeah. You touched on something that I've forgotten to talk about and I do just want to very quickly talk about the miracle of you and Gary discovering his illness

because is it true that he smelt different? Can you just tell us a bit about that? So Gary has something called Addisons and where he's adrenals. So he gets, goes into adrenal failure very, very quickly. So it's called acute adrenal failure. And he's severely asthmatic. He has conditions, but we don't like any of those things stop us from living our lives. We have to travel everywhere with a breathing machine.

So it's part of how we travel. And we've got it down to a fine art yet again. Even then when we go to all these places, always have to check. There's a local hospital and all of those things. But it's on our checklist. But during this time, he started to get very sick and very thin. and there was a smell down his neck there and it smelled like rotting wet dirty moss

and it was I didn't know whether he had an ear infection or something and he was getting thinner and thinner and thinner anyway we went to the doctors blood's normal heart norm everything was normal apart from this and then he got up one day and he had lost like four pounds at night and what happens is the body shutting down and we went to see again this incredible doctor called Dr Michael Pelle

and Dr. Pelle was based in the Chelsea and Westminster which was the St. Stephen's Hospital when I was born. I was born there and we went there and I said I know you think I'm going to be crazy but I can smell something on his neck and Dr. Pelle said I don't think you're crazy at all tell me what you smell and I told him and then he said to Gary tell me what you're feeling Gary by this point he just was skin and bone couldn't walk

and he said, if you don't do something, I'm going to die. I feel my body is melting. And the fact that he said, he actually said that to the doctor, and the doctor said, test his adrenals. His adrenals were like at nothing. So he was rushed into intensive care, put onto a drip. And what I, and I said to him, so what does that? And he said, that's the adrenal.

But I can't explain, Joe. Anyway, I was doing an interview. Actually, I was doing this morning, I think, and I'm talking about it. And this charity calls me who trained dogs to medical detection, dog detection, or detection dogs, based in Milton Keynes. And they said, can you come down? We'd love to chat with you. It's Dr. Claire guest. And it's a fact of charity I'm now involved with because of the dogs.

And they said to me, we'd like to chat with you because we're training dogs to smell. for adrenal. At the time, COVID wasn't happening, but all of these like severe bacteria's and everything. And they said, what are you smelling? Because the dog kept hitting the neck there and they couldn't understand what it was. And of course it was Addison's.

It was adrenal failure, which you can die off unless you get medical help. But how brilliant that you could help in that way? So I then had my nose tested with the dogs. I had to get in the pen with the dogs. and so many they're all Labradors sniffing may think

because they had to believe I was one of them and then I had my nose tested and I was in the top three with the dogs so I didn't make the top one and I'm actually made the top three

but you were like I didn't make the top one no and what that charity do is incredible they've got they've just discovered the smell

so if these dogs can detect something way before a blood test Wow. So we're looking at cancer, Parkinson's, diabetics that go into three-four diabetes. The dog will tell you. I mean, there's pots, you know, when people just, you know, go out flat. So I am known as a super-sniffer.

That is one of my titles. I mean, I think that suits you very well. The super-sniffer, yeah. Joe, I also want to talk about senses because we've talked about smell, losing it, getting it and how much it means and how it exploded, your olfactory sensors exploded. But now you're on taste.

So when I went to Dubai, I set myself a challenge and it doesn't have a date. It's just like, I'm going to do this. And I thought to myself, everyone knows me for the sense of smell and they trust me with that. And I won't take that for granted, by the way, ever.

And I would always create fragrances always and I love doing it. But I was, pardon? Thank you. I will never stop doing it. I won't ever, ever, ever. My mission was to find the five senses of Joe. Could I build global brands?

So I've been part of $2 billion, helping them become billion dollar with my creativity. Can I do that a third time or a fourth time? Yes. I don't want to run it. I don't want to do all the things. I want to do the bit I love. And so my mission was to find the five senses of Joe.

So I was thinking, and taste and smell are so similar, and that's a similar part of your brain, memory, although taste is kind of much more concentrated. And somebody came to me and said, would you ever consider doing vodka? And I looked at it. And first of all, I thought, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. And then I thought, you wanted to find your five taste. This is your opportunity to learn. You may not get to it. And when we first started out, it was about 18 months ago.

But it was when I met a woman called Jamann Moore, and she is a master distiller. So she is like a master perfumer. And I thought, it's identical to creating fragrance. I could do this. What if I could? And off we went. And so the first submissions of vodka, I got my papers out, you know, the papers that you smell from it. Dipped it into the vodka and smell.

And she went, what's you doing? I mean, I'm smelling. We smell first and then we taste. and now we always start by smelling our vodka and then we taste it when you smell you can so what I get people to do is smell and taste at the same time and we've got one called the Bohemian

we've got three we've got the purest the Bohemian and the artist and it's called Joe Vodka and you'll see it in 120 airports by the way across the where she's only a month old she's our new baby she's got a red glass stopper it looks so nice

Once it's used up, you take the stopper out and you can create one of those, you get one of those lamps that are battered and we created it so you never, it's like a piece of art. Don't ever throw it out. Use them as beautiful lamps. It's a bottle that you're meant to keep. You don't throw it out. It has another life.

I love that. It has another life. You have done so much, but I feel like there is no stopping you. I haven't finished yet. You haven't finished yet. The world today is telling us, don't trust those much, don't say that, don't feel that. And actually, your gut instinct is a human thing. Your babies are born with an instinct.

An instinct for their mother, an instinct to get up and walk. So instinct is a huge part of who we are as a human race. And that's what it's doing. And actually, sometimes when something's taken away and then given back to you, you hold it with fresh hands. Yes. You become the child again and the innocence of that gift. And I think when you face your own mortality, that's a scary thing.

Or you face, you know, you don't have to be sick. It might be someone who's going through a divorce and their life is Jane. You feel like it's the end of everything. Yes. And actually, once you cried the tears and you've started to move and motivate towards the other, side, you start to find a new life. I mean, how many times have you heard, you know, my life began when? I'm used to change. Yeah. I'm used to change now. People are terrified of change. And that may be, that may be who they are, though, as well. But I think with our younger generations,

I look at, you know, I went to speak at a school the other day and they were just so interested in the story. I could see them sitting like this and they're. were leaning forward listening to me. And it was just a story. But at the end, so many of them came forward and just said, oh my gosh, I just, I want to do this and whatever. And it's given me hope. And I think I could do that now.

And it was just so wonderful to see my enthusiasm and excitement had rubbed off with them just within 45 minutes. And they were taking that away and thinking, if she can do it, I can do it without a trigger of a doubt. So, and the place I live at the moment, as in my head, I believe that everybody has a bank account in life. And it's called creativity. And no one can touch that bank account but you, no one. No one can steal it from you, but it will only go up in value if you use it. And for me, my bank account is full. That creativity is just buzzing in so many different directions, you know, what is the sound of Joe?

but actually doing this podcast today, this is sound as well. All of these ideas that you're having, you are blowing my brains. Like a billion breakthroughs. I love this. In 24 hours, we could do it. Your purpose. Like imagine the people that you could help, a billion people that you could help with a breakthrough. A gap year at 60, blow my mind.

That would be. We could do, we could. Oh, no, you're too young. You're too young. We could do a Thelma and Louise. You and me. Can't drive. I can.

Oh, that's okay. Right? I couldn't for six months, but I can now. I can't drive, can't swim. Can't tell my left to my right. Don't worry, I'll rescue you. But don't worry, you'll smell great. But there's so many wonderful people out there as well.

There's so many wonderful people, you know, like I sit in airport lounges the whole time. And I am Chattie Kathy. and I'll sit. If someone's on their own, you know, are you going somewhere? And just make it count. Make the minute at moment count. And if it's for you or it's for somebody else, you may never see them again,

but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter about that. You know, just making somebody feel part of your world, five minutes or for 100 years. It really doesn't matter. And I think that gap here, though, is, and Gary and I laugh, We pack our little bags.

We always take rummy cub. And so you'll often see us somewhere in the world sitting. We'll be having a pasture, a glass of wine, playing rummy cub, play three games, and we have a competition. Take, you can imagine. We're very competitive. And we'll go and listen to, I don't know, the violinist playing, like in Lake Homer, there was a square. And all these students come out and they suddenly, they're playing the double bass and they're finding. And it's like, this is precious.

Imagine if this was your life. You know, when you sit somewhere and you go, imagine if this was your life. But it has me? I know. What? But that's like it. And yeah. So I just want to say thank you.

Oh, I've loved it. Yeah. Can we do it again? Joe Malone, CBE, Super Sniffer. Super Sniffer. That was so amazing. Oh. And there's so much to take home.

Oh, really enjoyed that. Thank you. Round of applause, please. Hope it helps.