Begin Again with Davina McCall - Natalie Imbruglia: I Got the Life I Dreamed Of... Then I Had to Start Over!

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

What happens when the life you dreamed of turns out completely differently than you expected? In this episode of Begin Again, Natalie Imbruglia joins Davina for an honest and deeply personal conversation about fame, failure, motherhood, ADHD, perimenopause and finding fulfilment on your own terms. Natalie reflects on finding fame young, running out of money when that fame faded, and then experiencing extraordinary global success with Torn. She opens up about the pressure that followed, becoming scared to leave the house, being dropped by record labels, and eventually walking away from music because she thought she was no longer meant to sing. She also speaks candidly about spending years trying to create the relationship and family life she thought she was supposed to have, her journey to becoming a mother, and why she now feels nothing is missing. Natalie also shares how ADHD, neurodivergence and perimenopause have helped her understand herself in a completely new way. This is a conversation about success, identity, reinvention and letting go of the life you thought you should have in order to build one that actually feels right. 🌟 Like, comment and subscribe for more honest conversations about purpose, resilience, love, loss and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨ Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm  We'd love you to share your Get Busy Living stories with us at https://getbusyliving.beginagainshow.com/ (00:00) Intro (01:18) Why “Algorithm” Marks a New Chapter (05:29) How Performing Became the Dream (08:22) Intuition, Spirituality & Manifestation (11:52) Stories From YOU! (Ad) (13:20) Davina Tries Monzo! (Ad) (14:30) How “Neighbours” Changed Everything (23:05) What Happened After “Neighbours” (27:17) How an ADHD Diagnosis Changed Everything (30:29) Moving to the UK and Running Out of Money (33:05) Breaking Into the Music Industry (38:44) The Story Behind “Torn” (41:04) The Pressure of the Second Album (43:36) Why She Made “Male” (45:26) Getting Dropped and Finding Purpose (48:22) Marriage, Love & Being Single (49:55) The IVF Journey to Motherhood (58:07) The Reality of Perimenopause (01:05:10) A Surprise Gift Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let's talk about Tom. It was a blessing and a problem. I remember thinking you're going to win every award this year and then nothing forever. Pretty close to what's happening. That's what's good. Nothing's fighting on tour. Today I'm joined by Global Star Natalie and Brulia, whose career has inspired a generation.

And went in and met this agent by myself. You were what, 16? 15 at the time. Yeah. I mean, you were very vulnerable. Alone on set. What was it like as a young girl? Natalie speaks.

really honestly about the reality of getting everything you've ever dreamed on. So I was like, well, obviously I'm going to be a star. So not till a lot later, I was able to be honest with myself about maybe how out of my depth I was. Oh my god, this is so funny. I'm being so open. She also talks about how often we're so focused on becoming someone else that we forget who we already are. When I got dropped by a record label, I quit music because I thought the universe didn't want me to sing. It is a conversation about identity, reinvention.

I just have always been very good at when I have to prove myself. I'll show them. When I was singing, I could just close my eyes. And so just coming back, recognizing the gift of what you're meant to be doing. And why you are always, and I mean always, allowed to begin again. Natalie Abrillo, everybody. Woo! Thank you so much.

So first of all, I want to quickly talk about your album because it's dropping like any minute. Yeah. And we've had a couple of tracks released already, amazing. But can you just talk me through? Because I do feel like each one of your albums has got a kind of theme to it. What was this one about? The album's called Algorithm.

That specific song is about my addiction to doom scrolling on my phone late at night. Which I'm still doing. Yes. So the song didn't fix me. but I wanted to open the conversation about mental health. So a lot of the subjects on there are to do with me coming into perimenopause. And for a year I was like, I'm not myself. I don't feel like myself.

And so all my neurodivergence came out to play. And so it's me going into sessions with the guys I'm working with, happened to all be men this time, and just saying, I am crazy. I don't even know. I think I'm going to have to quit my job. and ending up laughing and them trying to make me feel better. And so because I didn't want to bring myself down, I had to make it funny.

So the songs are very upbeat. And I was also playing lots of festivals. So there's lots of everything's written to play to an audience that's not your audience. So I don't have to pull anything out of the set. And algorithms been on Spotify for a bit, but with the blacked out like tracks that you can't listen to. But actually the track algorithm has been out for a while. So if you're watching this and the album's not dropped yet, you can go and grab a couple of tracks from the album already, can't you?

That's right. Just drive an algorithm and upside down. Yeah. But that's about my doom scrolling. So it sounds like it's about a sexy guy. And it's my phone. And it's how it seduises you in. I think it says Beast of My Dreams turning me on.

And it's the phone. And so I would, it's crazy because I'm an intelligent person, but I will see something that's a little bit violent or a little bit. and I'll go, oh, and something makes me press it. And so I think it's a really important conversation. Like, are you blindly following an algorithm? Have you learned how to change the settings on your phone? How about the algorithm in yourself?

Are you just taking in your environment? Are you, you know, taking steps in your life to make sure the people that you're around or the environments you're in or the self-care? Are you in charge of it or is it you just blindly? being led by the algorithm, your internal algorithm. So I just thought it was topical. So mine was lots of news outlets, and they all post all the really frightening things. So I unfollow.

Lots of violence and war and. I unfollowed all news outlets. Okay. And they were posting acts of violence, fights, murders, and things like that, all gone. So if you're not following them, can they still flash up and then you say not interested? because that's another thing you can do. And I wasn't doing that. I would just not want to press a button.

And I should have been actively saying, not interested, not interested. And then I started actively looking for puppies, babies. Yeah. Shaggy Mullet haircuts. I love a shaggy mullet haircuts. That's great. But I changed my algorithm and now my 4U page,

which used to be full of violence, is now full of puppies, haircuts and babies. You've totally inspired me. Okay. Because if I go to a dinner party, I'll just quickly have to put in puppies to try and disguise the ugliness of my. Because I don't want anyone to see my phone. And it will change your outlook. Wow.

Thank you for sharing that with me because I didn't, I'm still a work in progress and I'm still doom scrolling at night. So, like the phone's still in my bed and not outside the room. Yes. And I still haven't made the effort to do that. I only do it for certain times. times when I'm going out. So I'm going to do an experiment and see. I mean, I'd like to go back to your beginnings and growing up with your with your mum and dad. And I love it when you say that your mum had a different love language to you. It's not that she didn't love you. You know she loved

you. But she was kind of worried about you. Yeah. Were you going to be safe? She had to look out for you. And you were quite free, it felt like, as a kid. What was she like? Because she got you dancing early, right? Yeah. So apparently my sister was doing Scottish dancing and I was three and I used to do it up the back. So they just let me start. So I actually started at three.

Wow. By five, I was doing jazz and tap. Ballet came later because they don't want you to start ballet too young. But I was obsessive about it. So that was fine. But then I wanted to do character dancing as well. And I mean, financially, it was like, my mum was like, er. And then I wanted to do singing lessons.

And my mum said, no, you dance. You're just copying off Lee Belcher down the street, the girl who lived down the road. What does that mean? What was Lee Belcher doing? Because she was allowed to do everything. So mum was like, you're just trying to do what she does. And I'm like, no, no, no, I really love singing. And so I had to constantly prove to my parents.

And then even when I was at a performing of arts school, like after school curriculum, So like Johnny Young Talent School or the other one was Simon Gallowho's Young Ozys in Queensland. So we'd like perform in shopping centres. There's some really interesting footage of me singing Christmas carols. Because we had malls before you had malls before you had Westfield. I grew up with those. Westfield's Australian, isn't it? Singing in Westfield shopping centres with a Santa skirt, Christmas carols.

Wow. Actually there is one talent contest where I'm coming down, the escalator. Somebody was like, I think you should start at the top of the. and I'm singing True Blue. And my mum thought I was singing, hey, true blue, which is like a Pride Australia song, but I was saying,

I've had all the guys. And I was like 14. And she'd made me a really tight blue dress. And I came down the escalator. Oh, she looked up? Yeah, horrified. My poor mum. So you've always been a performer in your soul.

I felt like I kind of was born, feeling like I'd been here before and knowing what I wanted to do. And I thought that was normal. I thought everybody had a sense of destiny. I remember my older sister one day said, you don't know how lucky you are. I said, what do you mean? And she said, some people don't know.

It had never occurred to me how much of a gift it was, that my path was very clear. So that really hit me when she said that because I couldn't imagine not knowing. I mean, that came later. But it's interesting because we're going to touch on this a little bit later, but we were talking about instinct and the knowing and how it gets more heightened with age. Your conscience, the voice inside you telling you what to do becomes louder and clearer,

but it feels like you've always had that. Yeah, I always was very intuitive and fascinated with reincarnation, and the other realms and things like that. But it was kind of now we can talk about it more openly, whereas that was my freaky side that I had to keep quiet and only talk to with certain people. And now it's really nice that it's something we can speak more openly about. But I was always a bit intuitive.

But perimenopause has made it really dialed up. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? I mean, we're going to talk about that a bit later. But I love the fact that you and, And I feel like I did a bit too. And Michael, my husband also did it. We manifested our futures before it was a thing. You know, I just wanted to show off, perform, do anything.

So see me. I'm here. Please see me. Did you write a list? No, but you did. I was just going to ask you about that. Because your list was so precise and you literally made it all. happen. Tell us what you put on your list. How old were you when you wrote the list for a start?

I think 14, 15, around that age. And I've often thought, did I have certainty or is there no difference between this is my destiny? And I don't know whether you're manifesting or there's not really any difference, is there? Because I was just like, I can write a list and it will happen. So I didn't know, there was no, nothing had happened where I'd been disappointed. So everything's ahead of you and I have the school of hard knocks you know I hadn't really had those things that make you go oh maybe I can't have what I want so I was like well obviously I'm going to be a star of I'm going to be on East Street neighbors are home in a way then I'm going to be a movie star and they're going to be a pop star which order I don't know I don't really care

I'll just write them down wrote it down but it wasn't even weird for me to do that whereas the thought of doing that now or things I want to do in the future, I'd find that that much harder now. Would you? Yeah. After everything that you said you were going to do and you've done, but you'd still, you'd find it hard now? I think so, yeah.

I mean, I might have to go back again in a minute, but what would you write on your list now? Oh, playing stadiums, the house in Byron Bay. Aim big, fall madly in love later. I'm going to help you with that. Okay. I'm really good. You're good?

I'm not ready yet, though. No, no. Okay. See the panic? You let me know. When I'm ready? When you're ready? Oh, great.

Okay. You got a good track record. Okay, fantastic. Yeah, definitely there's a beach. There's water. So you have got a list? I've got a bit of a list. Yeah.

That's mainly about my son making sure that he's got everything that he needs as well. The ambition, the stadiums are all about him, really. Not so much about. about me anymore. What's one thing you'd love to be able to say you've done? Well, Monzo's sponsoring begin again to help us win some time back so we can do more of what we love, like finally doing that thing. I wanted to know what that thing was for you.

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Monzo current accounts are for 16 plus in UK residents, Tis and Cs apply. I'm interested in this 14, 15-year-old girl. She writes down this list of things that she'd like to do. It was number one acting. Yes. So how did neighbours happen? Because you were so young when that happened. So my mum wouldn't let me have an agent.

And I was now, I got a bursary to go to a school in Sydney, which was a performing of art school. And it was like proper. There was ballerinas there. And it was so you studied. But it was like fame. So two hours there. It was a long way, right? Two hours on the train.

And obviously you're tired. You're goofing off school. And so I started meeting professional actors at this school. And my friend Mel was like, I'll introduce you to my agent. And I was like, a Sydney agent. Because I was from the suburbs. and mum wouldn't take me, so I got on a train, and I was like, I'll do it myself then. And so I went for the meeting and went in and met this agent by myself.

And you were, what, 16? Yeah, I would have been 15 at the time. And so I started, but I became an extra in the background of the shows. So we'd be at home, and I was getting paid these good checks. And my parents kind of ears pricked up when it was like, oh, she's actually getting paid good money. And I was like, there I am. And we would pause and I'd be in the cafe in the back. And so that's where it started.

And I did that for six months. And then I was like, school's getting in the way of my auditions. I need to leave. So I left school, got a Coca-Cola commercial, a Twistie's ad. Wow. And then a guest appearance at the end of that year. So within six months, two commercials, guest appearance, like a two-week guest appearance. And then they offered me the job.

Wow. So it all happened within a six to eight month period. I mean, that list worked. Yeah, but also there's something very powerful about writing the list, something happening. And I'm pretty sure you didn't appreciate how mega that was. No. It was just expected. Or you knew it was going to happen.

I learned about manifesting eons later. And I was like, oh, was that what I was doing then? So the certainty of I can decide it's not that different. It's really not that different. It's just really putting it in writing. And yeah, we just, we did that more as a child. We just got to get back in touch with that little kid that dreams big. So this was quite a long way away from home, right?

Mm-hmm. I mean, Neighbors was a long way away. It was on your own. Yeah. 16 years old. 16 and a half, yeah. How were you feeling? Were you excited or not?

I mean, you were very vulnerable as a girl. You didn't? No. God, how amazing. I was like, oh, I can't wait to go out and go clubbing and no parents. But you were alone. You were filming. You were on set.

What was it like as a young girl? I mean, it was a dream. Actually, I remember the Blakeney twins? Yes. I think, because I had a really bad perm with, like, lemon squeezed into the bottom of it. Yeah, of course. Of course.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the twins came up to me and were like, so what are you going to do with your hair? And they very gently, sweetly, were like trying to make me look cooler and encouraged me to get my hair cut shorter and darker. And I'm so grateful because the perm had to go. So people were really loving and kind and sweet. and some knots and ice, but that's nothing new.

I think that was the harsh reality of being in an adult work environment as a child. I didn't know how to sign on and off work, so I didn't get paid for months because no one told me, you've got to sign in here and sign out there. So little things like that. God, that's so mad. They didn't have somebody specifically looking after you because you were young. No. I don't think it would happen now.

No. Because you were talking about wanting to go clubbing. You know, nobody asked for ID. then. No. Ever? No. And it's not like you had a chaperone. No. But I loved that. See, I was in a hurry to grow up and in a hurry to experience everything before you were meant to. And I used to say to my sister, you've got to stop reading books and just get out there and kiss a boy. You know, so I was just that child. So what would be scary for someone else was exciting to me. And I think it's not till a lot later that I was able to be honest with myself about maybe how out of my depth I was.

And that was a hard one for me, I think. And that period, I think as I got older, kept changing and reassessing. And when my niece turned 17, I mean, I saw myself in her and had that compassion for the situations I was in, what I'd survived, really, the danger I put myself in, numerous times, it kind of hit me in a different way. But I mean, I was all up for that. I just was running towards the wrong things, probably. I mean, you say running towards the wrong things.

I think I'm just so in awe of the girl that you are already, what you're 17, 18 years old. You are in a huge global phenomenon of a TV show that's on daily. you've got that all on your own virtue. Like my mind's already blown and I've only got you to 18 years old. But if you think about it, the gift from my parents

was not being showbiz parents and saying no. Do you think that's what it was? Oh yeah, I was like, I will. So the drive also came from, you will not stop me. They were very strict. And in wanting to protect me,

I think my mum was like, you know, don't have big expectations. expectations, you'll get disappointed in a protection way. And I was like, lift that lid off. So it was this weird thing of like, she gave me my drive and she gave me my determination. Because I had to do it myself because she wasn't going to help me. So I was like, I will find a way. And I remember sadly divorcing them in my head because I asked to go on school camp and my mum

had a bit of an expression of stress over money. And I remember thinking, you kidding me? And I went up to my bed and I was like, I am not a financial burden. And I made all these choices. And so I've often thought. Tell me what those were just quickly. Like you watch me not need you. Right.

This is quite heavy and I'm on TV. I've just remembered. No. I think it's actually quite helpful. Right. I was the same. And the thing is we're so sensitive that when we make a decision at that age, it's so powerful. And it had never occurred to me that I divorced them in my head, like what that must have felt like for them because I stuck, I was like, I don't need you.

You know, because the pain of being a financial burden to them or in some way being responsible for their unhappiness. And this comes back to neurodivergence as well in sensitivity. It pained me. And so it had never really occurred to me that. what I might have put them through and not needing them, you know, like, I think they must have been a little bit frightened that if they said the wrong thing, it's like walking on eggshells, you might never come home. And so I think later on, when you get over the fact that all the victim and everything's about you, you start to look at your part in it and how hard that

must have been for them. And as a parent myself, you know, so that's something I've thought about a lot how there was no room for my, for my, like my mum to mother me either. But at the same time, I've heard already as we've spoken, a lot of gratitude for your parents. You know, they made you who you are. Yes. And you're fucking ace. Thank you. So are you. I wonder if you look back, would you have changed anything?

No. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Definitely not. Well done. Yeah, well done. They're fabulous. So what was really funny, again, was, you know, I knew your story, but I didn't know dates and things like that. And I read and I was like, what, you left neighbours when you were 18?

Yeah. And I was like, I thought you were in it forever. It's so funny. I guess because it was daily and you were in our lives every day. It just had a lot of partners too. So I think that felt like the relationships went on for a year. By the end, they had me busy. Beth had done everyone.

Beth does Ramsey Street. Well, I mean, it was getting to the, I was like, really? This is a get, this is not my character. Yes, right. And they would just laugh at me. I'd be like, this is a get, this is off script. This is not, well, she would not do this. How frustrating is that when somebody makes your character do something that you think,

this isn't, well, they were just laughing at me. I was trying to take it very seriously. I mean, I thought I was a Thespian doing this, you know. But it is serious. She's got a phobia of blue and you've got her in a blue dress. This is me to the script writers. Yes, sweet. And they go, okay, thanks for sharing.

I need to talk to the scriptwriter. And then 18, you did basically the unthinkable. You leave this huge success and then you just up and move country. Yeah, you talk me through that. Well, I mean, 18. still so young. Yeah. Actually, I think I was, was I 17 and a half?

Wow. And I, so what we would do, you leave neighbours, you'd go do Panto to cash in and be an out-of-work actor. Right. So that would get you through. So that was the plan. And what happens is us, Aussies come over here and go, oh, my God, there's a whole world out there.

I'm coming back. And so, and then we never leave. So that's what happened. Via a trip through America, I ended up on a tour bus within excess. That's an aside. Wait. No, wait. You can't just say that and then say that's an aside.

So this is mega right because in excess at that time were just the biggest band in the universe. Yeah. And we've obviously all just seen that amazing documentary with Kylie and been re-blown away by Michael. He's and his beauty. I mean, I don't mean He was one in a million. I mean, in his heart. He was a beautiful person.

Yeah. Talk me through what that was like on the bus. Sexy, what God. I had become friends with a singer called Denny Hines. Her mother, Marsha Hines, is a very famous singer. And she was engaged to the saxophone player in In excess.

And she'd invited me to come stay to her hotel. So it's my first trip to the UK and I thought, well, I'll stop in the States and have a couple of nights with Denny and then go on to Canterbury. Like, imagine the first time you've gone overseas. And she got bored and was like, I'm going to go on the tour. I was like, you can't leave me.

I've never left home. And she said, well, I'll ask the boys if you can come on tour. And I was actually thought I was quite cool. So that was just really not cool and embarrassing. And like, don't ask them. Anyway, she said, oh, the boy said it's fine. And so next thing, you know, I'm flying to Chicago. And I'm on a tour bus with her next door.

Yeah. Yeah. And Helena Christensen walked in I was like I mean, yeah, wild. So how long did you do that for? I don't remember. It would have only been a couple of nights and then I would have had to go on back to New York

and then on to Petitip. Yeah, and I remember there was like bullet holes in the wall and someone was telling me about Al Capone. So there's just, you know, these things. And I remember one of the band members played me Joni Mitchell, girl at her volcano, sat me at a window with the, snowfalling. So those visceral memories of the first time you hear an artist like Ricky Lee Jones.

And it's just imprinted in my, you just can't redo those experiences. So that was, yeah, that was incredible. Earlier on you mentioned neurodivergence. And I just want to talk to you a little bit about that because now as an adult, I think lots of people, rather than labeling themselves, are just acknowledging that they probably have a bit of this and a bit of that. And that's why I've always been this way. Because I don't think you've been officially diagnosed, have you? With ADHD.

With ADHD you have. But you think you probably are dyslexic. Yes. But mildly, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it is interesting. The words used to move around on the page. Yes.

And I could never, I'd read three pages and go back and again. And I was like, I can't, how can I not remember what I'm reading? And thought I was stupid. Yeah. I mean, these are terrible these things that we go through when we're younger and everybody does just say, oh, well, you know, you're struggling a bit and da-da. But then actually when you do understand that there is probably a reason for that. Yeah.

And it's fine. And it actually also, I mean, dyslexia now is seen as it should always have been seen as a gift. Of lateral thinking. Yeah. And a different way of viewing the world. and how valuable that is. But, you know, it's sad because when you're younger, it's a burden. But you've been diagnosed with ADHD.

Yep. But I'm still thinking about this girl in all of these crazy situations on your own. It's mad. It is mad when you think about it. Yeah. But I knew I had OCD. How did that manifest itself? Well, my sister was really messy and we shared a room

and I had to put a piece of string down the middle and I was just very tidy. I was very organized and tidy and I was like, I'm so glad I've got OCD for my mum. So that was something my mother had lists. You know, she had us all kind of without chores and everything was orderly. But I was like, this is the best thing ever

because I never had it out of control. I never had compulsive hand washing. It never, it was like just the right amount. So I used to love that I had OCD and I'd tell everyone. Other members of my family later in life had to get treatment for it. I remember my sister had to touch the stove to make sure it was off and she'd come back to watch TV and she'd have to go back or she'd drive to work and think I've left the iron plugged in because mum was like, don't leave the iron plugged in.

We don't have house insurance. So that didn't help. But hers was getting out of control. So my niece and my sister had both had treatment for it. So then I became aware that there's a tipping point. I had no idea that they're all linked. That, you know, it doesn't really matter which one, like by the end of it. So by the time I'd been diagnosed and I realized that there's little bits of all of them

and that's an ADHD, D trait, not just a no-cate. I was like, oh, it doesn't matter then. Like you can get hung up on the labels or you can just say, you know, a sprinkling of all of them. It doesn't really, what matters is the tools you have to cope with whatever they are. Like, does it really matter? Do you really need to know specifically? It doesn't actually change anything.

So you came over to the UK. You did Panto, but then you were like, I love the UK. I'm coming back. And then it was a case of, I actually was trying to be an actress. So I had made some demos straight after neighbours, but the people that in Australia were trying to put me in like a girl group. And I was doing demos of Sean Colvin. Right.

Okay. I'm that girl group. It's too young for the kind of music I want to sing. I mean, it's just ridiculous thinking about it. I was like, they just don't take me seriously. Is this child trying to sing a serious country artist? I don't know if anyone knows who Sean. I do.

I love Diamond in the rough. That was my. Wow, brilliant. It just didn't fit. And so I just... Well, it did for you. For me, it did. But just not their impression of what you should be doing,

you knew what you wanted to do. Well, I actually was like I'm just going to have to wait till I'm a bit older. I'll put it on the back burner and I'll just stop being actress. Isn't that funny? It's amazing. So I then went to England and that's when I couldn't get a visa and to work as an actress and they were really cracking down on the neighbours' stars taking English actors' roles. And that was a hard time because I ran out of money.

So I was for a few years very famous from Neighbours and was doing appearances and appearing in clubs and signing autographs and just getting wads of cash in envelopes. And living like that. And that was the first time in my life where everything didn't fall in my lap. And so I just partied because I didn't know what to do. It's like, and then, but then the money ran out. And it was my dad once rang and said,

can I just ask, like, when are you going to get a job? And I was so proud. And I screamed at him and kicked off, But I was so embarrassed that he said that to me that I changed things then. So you'd had a kind of a pretty luxurious life for a young girl since you'd been in neighbours. You'd had a steady cash flow. You'd been an extra before that. You'd had an income coming in.

Yeah. So was it quite a good slap in the face sort of suddenly not having money? And it was like, oh, okay. Having to get the bus. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. It's interesting, isn't it? Because if for a famous person, then everyone might recognize you,

and they'd be like, are you Rebecca on the Lodglue from that? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Or they'd be like, I know you, but they didn't quite know where from. So the fame dwindles and the kind of recognition dwindles and the friends that were there fall away. And there you have the subject matter for the first album. And when did you start writing that? I'd run out of money and I was living in a basement.

of someone's house in Chelsea, which was weird, because I had no money, I'm in Chelsea, in this big mansion, but I'm just in the basement. And a lot of conversations with God about if I ever get lucky again, if I ever. Was it like a higher power, or were you religious? I was brought up religious, and I was still on the journey of what God was for me. I ended up getting very heavily into Eastern philosophy and meditation, and that helped me kind of understand my Catholic upbringing, strangely. I had met this meditation master.

How lovely? Yeah. How old were you then? That grounded me. That was, I guess I was around 21, 22 when Torn came out. So it was before that, just before that. So you got into meditation at 20? Oh, I'd already had my party years and then, yeah, dove into meditation.

Because I was like, I need, this is going to ground me. and if ever I have that success again, like I just want to don't let the wrong people in. Because I'd been through so much. And I just, this is incredible. It's a lot of lives for a little person. I mean, I think this is why I was so looking forward to talking to you on this podcast in particular, because often people spend decades in one thing and then change.

But you're, we've got to 20. And you've lived three lives already. It's incredible. No, but it's... I've got a spiritual name tattooed on my neck and I was like doing an hour and a half. Tell me what's your... Trea. Is that your spiritual name?

Yes. Oh, I love that. I don't go by it, but at the time I wanted it as a practice to... Yeah. Qualities I could grow into. Oh my God, this is so funny. I'm being so open. Bring it out.

What am I doing? I'm like, keep forgetting I'm not being filmed. Can I say something though? I'm in awe of you. Like, you're being open, but it's... Well... I'm so in... I'm so impressed by you.

And talking to a higher power. Wow, isn't it? Yeah, and having conversations. I don't know if I was having a mental breakdown. It could have been all the partying and then just kind of all the friends disappearing. And I don't know. I made deals with God. I was like, if you, if this happens, I promise, I think I wrote letters to my cousins and all kinds of stuff.

But it's cathartic. It was like... I've got a roof over my head. I remember thinking, some people don't. You know, when it's just reassessing, and when you've been spoiled and you've had things very easy and then it's all taken away,

things get stripped back and it's such a blessing. That was the birth of the album that changed my life. So, you know, the visceral memories, if you think about what's happened to you in your life, I'm not thinking about the awards and all of that. I'm thinking about when it was like, this is life or death

or like, I've got to get this together. That's where the nuggets of wisdom come and you make choices and pacts with yourself or with your higher power, whatever you want to call it, of, you know, what you're going to do now, what you need to do. And so that's inspiring to me. That's what I want to write about. That's what I think about and remember.

member more than accolates. So you've written some lyrics, you are struggling, everything is difficult, you're in a basement, you are writing lyrics to songs, but you wanted to act. But how did you get to meet somebody in the music industry who were like, okay, let's, did you make a demo? Oh, I know what happened. So I remember I couldn't get a visa to be an actress and I was like, oh, I'm going to have to do that other thing that I do.

So I had this idea that because I was on neighbours and so many people had had a music career or tried, I mean, there was quite a few. Had Kylie happened? Kylie was successful. But some people not so successful. And I just thought if it doesn't work, I'm like the 11th person who's tried and failed and that's it.

The stakes felt that high. Yeah. I knew I could sing. I was a stage school kid, but there's no game. guarantees. So it felt very risky, but I ran out of money and my dad made that comment and I was like, I'm just going to have to be the stage school kid again. Because it just wasn't cool. Like I got to teenagers, it's about boys and you don't, you're not a triple threat. So that wasn't cool in my head. It is actually really cool. So I went back to it kind of because I ran out of money. And did people try and pigeonhole you into the pop star? Well, no, I met this lovely woman called Anne Barrett, who was my first manager. And she really nurtured me and introduced me to Phil Fulnelly, who produced my first album,

and all the songwriters of the demos at that time. So I've got a lot to thank her for. I felt safe with her, and so that's when I started songwriting. And it was that the demos that I worked on with her that she took in to RCA Records, to Jeremy Marsh, who then signed me. And one of the demos was torn. Wow. So that's how it happened.

Let's talk about Torn because it was a blessing and a problem, like in a way, because it's huge success. Like literally it must have taken everyone by surprise. It just, I mean, it was a worldwide spectacular hit. The album, full stop. Yeah. I think it leaked on to. to K-Rock in America, which was not even a station that played pop music. I don't know how, but it got played.

And then so it kind of broke itself in America. And then we were chasing it around the States. I mean, Grammys? I got nominated. Yeah. I mean, it's wild. Like madness. Mm-hmm.

And what, you're how old at this point? 22? I think so. Something around that. Yeah, around that. Like still ridiculously young. Yeah. Brits.

Yeah, two Brits. You won, didn't you win two Brits? Yeah. Yeah. So like it's a ward, Sarah, and it's bigger than you've ever experienced before, and it's something completely new again. Yeah. Is it like we're inventing yourself, you know, actor? Oh, musician, different hats.

Or were you just being cute? Yeah. I was just me. And they were all things I did from already. Yeah. singing into a hairbrush. Not much had changed. And I was very rehearsed,

so I was like a stage school kid. And so would you call yourself very professional? Like you weren't just mocking about or... I still am a bit rehearsed. So Torn was not just an epic in terms of awards, but even just the amount of streams, the amount of albums sold, obscene. It was something like,

how many times a day in Australia was it being played? Something like 75 times a day, I think. I have no. Yeah, no, I mean, seriously, it was like the most streams. Yeah, and it was the most strange track in the 21st century or something from the 70s, 80s, 90s. I mean, it was... It's insane.

But the pressure. So then you're like, oh, this is brilliant. How long could you enjoy it for before your thinking? thinking second album. Oh gosh, I was thinking second album the moment it happened. I was like, oh no, calm down, everyone. Please stop looking. I'm supposed to be quietly learning a craft here.

So it was this real juxtaposition of I'm so grateful. I'm going to be singing this song forever. Make friends with it. Oh, you'll hate it. Yeah, of course. I remember thinking you're going to win every award this year and then nothing forever. Pretty close to what's up. That's right.

many awards since that's true. But like, not like that is so rare really for people to go on and do it year after year after year. It doesn't happen like that. But you are an accomplished musician who has released a lot of amazing music. So I'm just going to sow that seed. I'm thank you for that. You are amazing. I've gotten better. But, but, but, but that was just too big a first album really. So I think the pressure. for you after that must have been a month? It was. I think for me, the fact that I was even having the thinking,

what am I going to do with this? Like knowing that I had a choice to enjoy it, like that's the gift that the meditation practice gives you. It was like, you've got a choice here. You can be a victim of this, or you can just decide to make it fun and have the best year of winning awards of your life and just love it because then it's like, is it bad?

Is it bad? Why does it have to be bad? It doesn't have to be bad. Just have a really great year. I mean, some people don't get that year. And so I'm grateful that I had that kind of perspective at such a young age. But it was a lot of pressure.

So then it was agoraphobia. I was terrified to go out. Were you? Because people would say, how's the album coming along? Oh, God. Just that. And they think they're being lovely and social.

Oh. And it was just like, oh, I'm not that good. I just remember thinking, I'm not that good. Just calm down. That was like, you know. I already know, but you're going to have to make me in such a public forum fail. Whereas I'm already there. So it was like, it was so, the biggest achievement was completing that second album.

You have brilliantly, you know, carried on being a very accomplished musician and bringing us more brilliant music. And after three albums, your relationship with that record company came to an end. And then you moved on. But can we just quickly talk about, was it called Mail? Oh, yeah, the covers album. I loved that album. Thank you. It was such an interesting and out there idea for a woman to cover men's tracks.

And what made you do that? Like I just, it was, it was so different. And I love the tracks you've chosen. I love the way you sound on it. Like, it's brilliant. Do you know, I didn't really want a record deal. And so I'd gotten back into songs. writing and because I'd quit music because I got dropped by a label. It was kind of my way back

into music. But I'd kind of been tricked into going to this record company just to have a meeting for the future. And then I was plonked in an office and I was having to pitch myself to the head of this label. And then I got offered a deal on the spot, which was meant to be for an original material album. And I was tricked. So that's the real story behind that. But how mad that like you were tricked into getting signed? I was, yeah. Like that's sorry to the people that tricked me, but yeah, I was told it was just to go in for like future reference. But then it was clear that it was a bit of a setup.

But can't just say it. I loved it. Thank you. The result. Well, I was like if I'm going to have to. So then I thought I was doing original materials up. Then I was told, no, you have to do this first, which never ended up happening. I got dropped again.

So I just remember walking to this wind. of this New York office and the voice in my head said, never look at gift horse in the mouth. Yes, that was it. Still, it's a gift. Because I was angry. I was like having all these mixed emotions. And then that that sentence came into my head, never look at gift horse in the mouth. And I was like, all right.

Because I could have stayed bitter about how it came about. It's just like just sometimes you just go with the gift horse. Like, just go with it and you don't know what's going to come of it. And thank God I did because I'm in my creative flow. Yeah. And this is definitely what I meant to be doing. Yes, for sure. And the recognition that I'm not the best songwriter.

I'm not the best singer. I'm a communicator of emotion. And that's what changed it for me is trying to be an actress and that was harder. When I went to Hollywood and, you know, later on trying to do that. And that it's enough to be that. I don't need to play a guitar. I don't need to do this. I just need to be me and recognize the gift of when I go inside myself

and feel an emotion and sing it to you, you feel it. Wow. That was like, that's really, because only I can do it the way that I do it, that's empowering because then you, you know, that's all you're, you're not trying to be a good songwriter anymore. Like, I'm a communicator. How nice did it feel to realize that? It was everything.

Everything, because it's like an experiential feeling of what that is, the power of that. And the decision that I do it to two people in a pub, and if I change one life, that's it. Like to have that feeling that I don't need to get to the top, arrive anywhere, that it's valid. And it's not about, you know, the money or this or that. It's like it's about being happy. Because when I moved away from what I love doing, which I encourage people to do, if you're stuck. What do you mean by that?

When I got dropped by a record label and then I quit music because I thought the universe didn't want me to sing, just decided. And then I went to Hollywood to try and act. And it was so hard and so clunky. And I thought that that was my first. ambition taken away because this song happened. And I was like, I'm not really not enjoying this. This is really hard, learning all these scripts. And when I was singing, I could just close my eyes.

And so just coming back, like, recognizing the gift of what you're meant to be doing by allowing yourself to just walk away from it for a minute. And not fail, but not enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't really want to delve into your relationships per se, but You know, you haven't got a life partner at the moment. No, but I had what you're talking about in my marriage, you know, until it wasn't that. But I can recognize the effortlessness, which has set the bar so high. I mean, it's really. So it's not something that's on my radar right now.

And I don't know if that's having a child later in life. but a song from my last album, Nothing Missing, it's very true when I say there's nothing missing. I'm not yearning for it. I'm not wishing it away. I'm not blocking it. It's okay that at this point in my life, I'm fulfilled. My work brings me so much joy.

Being a parent, it brings me so much joy. So it's just not a thing. I mean, it's not a, I think what's interesting. is that it's not a conscious decision. You're not making a conscious decision to not be with someone. Oh, believe me in my 30s, I tried really hard. Yeah, but not now.

No, in my 30s, I was just trying to have that normal post-divorce, like, I've got to be normal. And, you know, hi. What's normal? Just desperate, you know. And I really wanted a child. So I must have just been really frightening for men. but I did try for 10 years.

If it's all right, I would really love to talk to you about the journey of becoming a mother because there are going to be so many women watching this. I have many friends who are at that crossroads in their life. Am I going to become a mother or am I not going to become a mother?

And it's a big life decision to make. And for me, it's been the making of me. I am a better person because of my kids. But I would love to just hear a little bit of your journey. Because it's not, nobody tells you. Where can you learn about it? I mean, for me, it was jumping through rings of fire for quite a long time. Yeah.

It's lots of mixed emotions. One thing I do like to say out loud is I didn't choose some feminist path of not being with a man. Yeah. I think that's really unfair to men because it's been written about that, about me. Oh, that I made this choice. I couldn't get arrested. I couldn't find a boyfriend. I pride really hard for a long time.

And then, you know, as a woman, you run out of time. Yeah. And so then you start going, I'm not going to have to think about, oh. and there begins the journey and it's really intense and can be really lonely. Yeah. So I just make myself available to any woman who's stranger at a party or whatever who needs advice. I give it so lovingly and freely because, yeah, I just didn't have that kind of support. And it's hard, like, hormonally sometimes.

The ups and downs and the hormones you have to take and the ritualistic. I was like a soldier. I just... That part I could wrap my head around. I think it's harder when you stop or when a cycle doesn't work and then you've got to pick yourself back up.

That's the hard bit. I think while you're in the routine, you've got your routine and you've got to take this at this time and it's all very... But then when it doesn't go your way, that's the hard part. What was it like when it did go your way?

Just the best. Yeah, pretty good. Devena! Sharing, I think, I spent so much of my life being guarded. It's exhausting. That is. And that's fear. Of what?

From being judged too young in an industry that was too critical on women. And I think it's good medicine for me as well. Like, just rip the band-aid off and it's okay for people to get to know who you are. You're not that bad, you know? Can I say something? You're gorgeous. Like inside. I am so an awe of everything.

Don't make me cry again. For everything you've done. Yeah. It's incredible. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, go somewhere else, try something else. Vulnerable, strong. sassy, like, talented. You're just fucking knockout.

Like, I can't quite get over it. But I feel like you're a little bit like me in that, do you quite like being the underdog? Like when you've got to fight for something, I just, it's a personality trait. I'm much more comfortable digging myself out of a hole than being on the top of a mountain and got there. Like, now what?

Well, now all I can do is fall off the pedestal. But I just have always been very good at, when I have to prove myself. I'll show them, you know, that feeling. It's really, it's character building. So, yeah, I've had to do that a lot. You tried many times and you got pregnant. Yeah, I think it was at least five-year journey, many, many attempts.

Did you worry? Because when I got pregnant, I think as somebody who's well-known and something big like a pregnancy happens, I was so fiercely protective by my kids, like a lioness. Yeah. So for you, getting pregnant after trying and everything, and you're on this journey.

Yeah. What was that like? Were you like a lioness? Were you like, oh, I don't want to tell people, I do want to talk people. I do want to talk it for six months. Yeah. Because the energy coming at you and because I'm quite an energy sensitive person.

and I just didn't want the energy coming at me. So I kept it hidden for as long as I could. And then I was like, I mean, there's a price on my head for the photo. So, like, you've got to make certain choices. And I think it was my family friends, the Branson's, were very supportive and helpful with advice at that time of my life. And I just made the decision to put a statement out. And I remember being terrified because I'm very private.

And so having to put this statement out to protect myself. and the baby to just get it out the way. And I just remember crying all the way to Oxfordshire, bawling my eyes out. And you know what? I just got inundated with the most beautiful DMs from all these women just saying, thank you so much. I need to talk to you. I really want to do that.

And it just hadn't occurred to me how many people I could help in just that little, that wasn't that big of a deal. It was just putting a statement out. But, and then realizing that that was actually quite a big deal at that time. So, yeah. And then you gave birth. Yes. And you had a son who's six.

Yeah. How have you changed? Like, what's it changed for you becoming a mum? Like, if anybody's watching and they're like, oh, I don't know if I want to. Or was it, was it, I mean, you, you fought for a very long time. To get here. Rings of fire. I believe if you've made that sole contract, that child is yours.

There's this little thing called Time, and maybe they want to be a Libra and born in 2019. So you've got to jump through a few more rings of fire. But whichever way you become a parent, whatever the story is, whether you adopt, whether it's my way, whether it's, it doesn't really matter. Like when you meet your child and you have that recognition, it's the most beautiful, incredible thing. And for some people, that's not the thing. So there's also people whose destiny in this lifetime is to not have a child. And that's okay too. I think there's so many social pressures on what your life needs to look like.

And so I think just to follow your intuition. I mean, I prayed for the yearning to be a mum to be taken away from me. Did you? Because that's what I, that was just to take the yearning away. Yeah. Because it was a biological, this wanting. Like if I just didn't want it, if I didn't yearn for it, then I'd be able to just get on with it.

And so, and that's because that soul was there waiting to be a Libra in 2019. You know, so I just kept jumping through the rings of fire. and yeah, so it's just the best thing ever. And it's the most, it's like everything else has more joy. There's way more stress. All you do is schedule. Your life's just scheduling. But it's so much joy.

The joy far outweighs the extra stress. You know, I'd quickly like to talk to you about perimenopause actually because you talked earlier about thinking I can't do my job anymore. I felt exactly the same thing. I couldn't remember people's names on a live TV show to the point where my exact producer came up to me afterwards and said, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine.

And then she left the room and I burst into tears. So confusing. Mine was seeing this expression in other people's face. Yeah. Like, you know, like when you're the anxiety and you're like, and then they're like, And so they look a bit frightened. Or the not to 60.

Yeah. I was a fury. So they're like, and they're like, oh God. And you see it too, like a lot in the day. And you're like, it was actually in one of my songs, but I changed the whole verse. So it was in the song Debbie. And it was, there's that face again. There's that face again.

And that terrified me. I was like, why am I keeping on seeing that face in other people? Not in one person. And everyone's looking at me with this kind of like, you know, who wants to be giving that reaction to someone? It's not cool. I did a talk for a company once about the menopause. And I talked about rage and how for women in particular,

it's such a shameful emotion, right? Yeah. And it's something that often we don't have or we suppress until perimenopause. And then you can't suppress it anymore. And a woman came up to me afterwards and had a little cry. And said, I'm so full of shame. Wow. I've really, the rage is.

It's real. Yeah. But I'm Sicilian. I'm already too much. I'm half French. Yeah. So when you're too much before Perry, and then you, you know, go through this thing and you're like to triple too much,

it's hard to, there's a lot of shame. I had the funniest, I have to tell you, I had this breakfast club. What's that? with my girlfriends, but they're all like 10 years my junior. Like we meet up for a breakfast club. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How lovely. And I was telling them.

Yeah. Oh, well, how useful are you? I was telling that, well, yeah, but know your audience. I was like, so, oh, girls, it's been so stressful because, like, I hit Perry. And suddenly I'm, like, before a show. I'm really anxious and I'm really touchy and I'm behaving in this way. And I was talking and talking and, you know, and then this one of the girls, who shall remain nameless.

It's like, I'm really sorry, but I just have to admit that I thought Perry was a person. So this girl was holding space for me hitting Perry, because I hit Perry. And then she's thinking, oh, I suppose if I was anxious enough,

maybe I'd hit someone, because I was saying I hit Perry, meaning a hit Perry menopause got to that point in my life. So she's thinking Perry's a person and that I punch, turn to violence, holding space for the violence, nodding politely, and then admitted. And she's like, I thought, oh, she said something. Yes.

She's going, oh, really? And she thought, I wondered if anyone's checked off. And that was my know-your audience. Ten years, my junior. Because obviously they're not there yet. And I'm going, oh. I'm super grateful now. Well, I just.

They're heading that way. I talk about it at Coxwood's dinner parties. It's not, you know, it wasn't popular. But there's a feminist in me. that when I had the tiniest bit of shame, I was like, no, this is not okay. Well done. And so I would just speak about it and male friends of Michael. Like, you know, how's your vagina?

And so, but it's medicine for me to talk about it and removing that shame and that stigma. Because the more it's spoken about, the more it's normalized, then the people coming after don't have to live with the shame. So it's our duty and responsibility to not have to go through that year where we're saying, I don't feel like myself, for 12 months. Yes, you can actively take a role in your own future. Yes. Take a part and decide, make a decision about, I mean, even before you hit perimenopause,

you can have a rough idea of when you do what action you would like to take. You can either choose to not take HRT or take. take HRT, it's great to know before you hit it. Have you done intervention? Have you done intervention? I've done countless interventions. I've done so many interventions. Yeah.

Just let me lather some estrogen on your arm, you know. But I think Instagram's been amazing for women in paraplegal. You've been amazing. You single-handedly caused a shortage of estrogen on your NHS. Yeah, there's still a shortage of patches. This is bad. I bumped into you. Do you remember?

Yes, I do. I watched your documentary and then I saw you in a restaurant and I was like, we need to talk. Yeah. What brand of testosterone? And I like wrote down everything and you checked in with me and I talk about you all the time for what you've done for me. Because I seen those two women scientists speak, show the picture of the colors in the brain. Yes.

I didn't know. Lisa Moscone. I didn't know that it was affecting my brain like that. So just associating it, just not with your period's going to stop, you know, too. It's my brain needs feeding. It's a movement now. It's absolutely brilliant. And there were women before me.

I just was right time, right place, I think. No, I just think you use your position to help people. Thanks, nice. And it doesn't matter how uncomfortable it makes you. You'll just, you do it for the greater good. And so I'm really grateful because. I got all the tips direct from you and I've helped so many other women

Yeah I was just going to say You know this is the other thing I love about being a woman And you know being a woman The reason why we love women Is because being a woman is fucking tough sometimes And we go through a lot And we have cross-sister bear Physical, mental, emotional

But it brings us closer together we will always have something in common with any woman we meet. We'll find something. I just feel like also from when I was younger, it just feels like women are generally more supportive of women. Have you noticed that? Or is that just getting older? I think it's because of what we go through.

You know, we suffer. But our suffer brings community. It does. Yeah. And also, I love the idea what you just said. You tell one woman something valuable, and she'll tell ten. Yeah. A couple of things.

I've got a couple of gifts for you. Okay. So I just want to show you something from a friend of ours who just wanted to say hi to you. Ready? Yeah. Hello, Natalie and Prulia. All two about the favourite people, sat opposite each other. child Oliver here

I just wanted to say Natalie you genuinely one of my favourite people that's ever been on the show we loved you on the Masking it really felt like you were one of the first people who sort of properly

embraced the costume and have fun in there and the audience just fell in love of you and you really had a great time and you were a worthy winner and I think still

one of my favorite reveals of all time I think I remember saying that I fad to you so much which is, I think I've been meaning for maybe the last of four years or so to apologise for that. But I'll be honest, I'll stand by it.

I thought it's a difficult too. I apologize to you both. I'm glad I'm not in the room. Have a lovely interview. Yeah, speak soon. Bye-bye. Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye. He's so lovely.

You know what happened after the show? He and his missus. What's his lovely glass name? He and Hannah rang me drunk to tell me that he fancies me, the both of them. And I think they were singing torn. And I was like, this is wild. You guys are great. Can I tell you something weird? Yeah.

Their son is called Wild. No way. Anyway, we've got one other present for you. Okay. Thanks, Joel. Love you. Your son. From my son? Yep.

Um, and you just wanted you to do. do this. To do this for you. Did he draw this? He drew it. This is him and his mate. Charlie, I think he's called. That's his best friend at school.

Which one? So that's Charlie. Charlie, you were eating something and he got some stuff on his mouth. It got all messy. It got all messy. This is bolognese. And it was really funny.

That's you. What's this here, do you think? My hair? Yes, I think so. This is the cutest. It's the framer. I shall treasure this. That's amazing. Thank you.

Love you. That's so sweet. Thank you. Love you so much. Grazie me. Thank you for having me. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.