Begin Again with Davina McCall - Paloma Faith: How I Knew When To Leave! Our Relationship Is Better After We Split. Dating Over 40 Is Tough!

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina is joined by Paloma Faith—singer, songwriter, author and actress. Paloma dives into her experiences with relationships, knowing when it's time to walk away, dating apps, the challenges and rewards of dating over 40, and how her views on feminism has evolved. Paloma offers insights on finding balance, embracing vulnerability, and creating a life that feels genuinely fulfilling. Paloma explores these topics and more in her book, which you can find here: https://amzn.to/3Auau61 Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro (01:06) Paloma’s Journey Accepting Help (02:23) Lessons From Past Relationships (04:24) Navigating Separation Therapy (08:15) Pregnancy (12:39) The Challenges Of Being The Breadwinner (15:26) The Power Of Vulnerability (17:43) Midlife Dating: Finding Love Later In Life (22:45) How Therapy Changed My Life (24:16) Inside Her Book (26:01) Adobe Ad (27:10) Inspiration Behind Her New Album (28:47) Exploring Music Preferences And Taste (29:39) Ageing Gracefully And Planning For The Future (36:02) Defining Your Unique Style (40:00) Top 5 Ways For Women To Start Fresh (42:02) Finding Yourself: A Guide To Self-Discovery (43:58) Final Thoughts Sponsored by: Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ SetArtwork provided by Kimi Zoet. Enquiries: [e-mail] https://g2ul0.app.link/oQMAPbdSGNb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think I'd postpartum depression for a couple of years. Did it make you feel a bit scared? I said to him, I really want another baby. Can I do it? And he said, I don't think we'll make it as a couple. You know, there's this midlife thing. Dating in midlife is really, really hard, I think. Definitely don't want to date someone who's a fan of my music.

I only like people who think it's rubbish. Are the people in successful relationships genuinely, successful or are those people just compromising? You come with a lot of baggage. Unless you are prepared to work through that, you won't have a healthy relationship. You can easily get mixed up with emotional attachment so you can attach to someone before you realise. I think I made my biggest breakthroughs after my breakup. It really changed my life. That is when you know that you've done the right thing. I have this feeling that now I'm having another lie. I feel sexier than I ever was. What I love about the person I day is that I'm yes how old would you have been when you understood that you found it hard to

receive help i think the the moment i the first moment i really needed help was my was childbirth so probably 34 35 can't remember how old it was when i had my first child and i got really sick and it was definitely not the picture perfect experience i thought it would be and i was vulnerable for a long time in a physical sense. I couldn't really stand for three months afterwards. After you'd given birth? Wow. Because I had like several infections and it was a bit of a, it was like, you know, a lot of things went wrong. I was on antibiotics for a long time. It wasn't healing and yeah, very depleted. And then I think after that, I just realized, oh my God, in order to be able to help this mini person, I'm going to need some help.

And I just didn't know how to ask. I didn't know how to receive. I didn't know where to look. And I think, yeah, I think I'd postpartum depression for a couple of years before I realized. And I didn't realize I had it because I was in it until it cleared. Are you okay talking about your relationship with your ex-husband, partner? Partner, yeah. Because obviously this is such a big part of how you're kind of helping other people.

And this is called begin again. And I think actually leaving the father of your children is such a massive time to begin again. Yeah. And a huge time for self-reflection. So how old were you when you met him? I was 31 and he was 24. Right. And what was that like?

Was it like I think it was the closest to love at first sight I've ever experienced in a cynical way like I was like that doesn't exist but I was in a relationship at the time and I was with friends I wasn't in London when I first met him and I turned to my friend and I said

I need to get out of the relationship I'm in because I'm obsessed with that guy I hadn't even spoke to him and I was like Even if he's, I was like, I said, I hope he's an idiot. But even if he isn't an idiot, I'm still need to be not in the relationship I'm in. Because if I'm feeling that strongly about someone else, this isn't a right one to being kind of thing. I think it's funny when you talk about begin again, because in a sense, even though I ended the relationship with him,

it feels like I began again with him as well. Yeah. So I do have a really good relationship with him now and I have a lot, we have a lot of respect for him. each other and we still say I love you, which I think will be difficult for the person that I end up with. But it's kind of like it has to be that way. So, you know, at the moment, that's how it is. I feel like our relationship has changed shape, but it's a better relationship now than it was. I mean, I think what's always a very healthy way to look at your ex, even if it's ended acrimoniously, which sometimes they did. Well, initially, it was terrible and we did loads of work on trying to, we began again.

We did. We started from the beginning and we remembered all the bits we liked about each other. And even like, because we did separation therapy, even speaking to that therapist, sometimes she was a little bit harsh and we'd laugh and bond afterwards. Like, right. Should we stay on just and just chat about how insanely harsh this was or was. But we kind of bonded over there. I'd want to ask you about separation therapy. What is that? Yeah, so we did like, we did have relationship therapy when we were falling apart.

And I don't personally feel like we had a great experience in that. Right. If you don't both feel heard, it's very difficult, I think. Yeah. And it doesn't work so well because often you're in it to sort of. sort of prove that you've done the best you can, but it's sort of already over. Right. Got to be honest with yourself.

Yeah, I feel like, but then I met like another person who was a therapist and she mentioned separation therapy to me. She was like, you know, you're going to have a relationship with him for the rest of your life because you have children together. And so you should work on that relationship for them. And we did. and she recommended someone and this woman was just amazing. I sort of wished that she'd been our couple's therapist

because she was harsh and I need that because I can easily dominate a situation and just be like, no, in its fear, isn't her? And she was just like, whoa, you need to shut up a second. Oh, brilliant. And I loved it. A refreshing, yeah. Yeah, I was like, oh, okay.

She's like, no, he's talking, you know, like all of that. And vice versa. It felt really fair. And I think that we realized that all was not lost in a way. And I think sometimes when we first break up and it feels like we've hurt each other so much, over an extended period of time, you just think it's broken, it's never going to be okay. But it was. And sometimes we still get irritable.

Like the other day, he won't remember me saying, I got annoyed with him. and he was annoyed back and then he just went, I'll have a great evening. And I just wrote, ha, ha, ha, back on the text. Because I was like,

that is kind of the luxury of not actually being together as you can be like, we don't have to continue talking to each other. We're not like forced, you know. Yeah, he'll probably laugh when he sees back and goes, oh, God. Yeah, when we saw each other again three days later

for like swapping kids, we just were like, hello, you're right. It was just fine. it are diffused. Isn't that funny that you can have a much better relationship with somebody apart? Yeah. That is when you know that you've done the right thing.

I still think he's one of my best friends. Yeah. And sometimes we get like if we're emotional or tired, we both get a bit upset about that. But then also grateful that there might be a future for it, you know. Well, there has to be because we've got kids. Oh, you mean a friendship? Not a relationship. Not a relationship.

You know that that's over. Yeah. Because there is like that kind of weird grey area when if you are getting on really well, then... You think why? Why can't you stay together? Yeah, but I feel like that's a dynamic that I know I don't want. Yeah. Okay.

It's fine as soon. Yes. So I did want to talk to you a little bit about your struggle to get pregnant. Because often also women in their 40s might be thinking, last chance saloon, I want to get pregnant, it's not as easy. What was that journey like for you? Well, it's horrible. And people sort of say, oh, you can just do IVF like a flippant thing. Yeah.

But it really isn't. And I think emotionally was the hardest thing. When we first started trying, I had already had some really like, I'd be. been pregnant quite easily. So I was concerned. And what's interesting as well is that to me, and it does irritate me, is that science, because it is mainly dominated by men, means that if it's a male fertility problem, which it was in our case, is still the woman that has to endure the brunt of the stuff. And it's like, there's been no breakthrough that, I mean, he was devastated the whole time. Like if there was something I could take or I could do injections, I'd do that because it's,

why is it have to fall on you? But it did. And it does. Just like most, you know, medicine, most medicines tested on men and for men and in favor of. So that did sound like he was empathetic. He was empathetic, but I think that put a strain on our relationship in itself. Yeah. Because he was like, his view was, you're so hard working.

You're such a go-getter. you provide, you know, you bring more to the table, breadwinner and all of that. And all I had to do was this. And I can't do it. I can't even do something to help. And that was difficult. I think that's really important that it's talked about because it's not talked about enough. No.

And it's quite often when you say I had IVF, everyone assumes it's a female fertility issue. And the reason why I point it out that it wasn't is because of that. because everyone just goes, oh, it's the female side because it's us doing all the injections. But so it was difficult because I knew as well that I could just conceive naturally. And I think that put a strain on us because I'm not somebody who varies.

My feelings, I just say, you know, this is frustrating. Especially like that, though, I think. Get them out. Yeah, get them out. Yeah, get them out. Get them out. Rather than quietly resenting someone. Yeah, exactly.

But so we did all that. And then the birth was not ideal. And when we came to lockdown, the fertility clinic called me and said, oh, we're still open. And obviously you're not working as much. Do you want to have another baby? And I was like... What, they called you?

Yeah. Wow. And I was like, I really do. And then I call... Wow. And then I said to him, I really want another baby, and they're right. Like, we're not, I'm not working as much. I've got time to relax.

I'm not stressed. Can I do it? And he said, I don't think we'll make it as a couple. So he knew. And I was like, I want to do anyway. It was it what you'd gone through? Yeah. Postnatal depression and the pressure.

I think the resentment as well, like I just felt. alone. And like I said, like, I think we touched on a few of these issues. But, like, you know, there's this midlife thing. And you're, you're, like, looking at a perimenopause around the corner and then a menopause. And you're just like, last chance saloon. And you've spent, like, the first half of your life, like, you know, building up who you are, growing confidence, knowing what you like, maybe stop apologising for what you like. And you just get to this point where you're quite frazzled, I think. I think we do have kids too late because we're quite exhausted by the time we have them.

And then I just was like, I just raised an only child, so I just had it in my head. I need to give this child a sibling. As a major breadwinner, which a lot of women are nowadays, and a parent, you know, I know you've spoken about this before and I find it so great to hear other women talking about it because it's a lot. It's a lot going to work and having little kids

and kind of feeling like the onus rests on us as women to do the majority of the parenting and cleaning and keeping house and working. What was that experience? like for you. I always used to say to people that I felt like a single parent even in a relationship. I guess the difference is that the loneliness at times like when you put the kids to bed and then you're just on your own. But you get used to that, I guess. It takes a while though. Yes, I mean, I think I think men generally speaking are getting better each generation. My partner is an amazing dad

and I'm in awe of his parenting. So I do think that... That's amazing that you had... Future generations, you know, we... Our boys will get better and better and better at sharing. But I'm exhausted and I do think that it's unfair and I'm still exhausted even though we're separated it's still always on me.

And sometimes even my kids perpetuate the imbalance. Like they'll say to me, well, it's you that's got to do it. And I'm like, why? Yeah, well, well, well done. Good, challenge. Yeah, why is it me? And then they said because, they say because they might, I mean, she has said like, because Papa's too tired or something and I say, well, why don't you think I am?

You know, like, I mean, you are a ball of energy as well. And, you know, you are an independent person. And this is sometimes, it's interesting how. I resent my own independence at the moment, though. Do you? Or did you? Do you know what I have always found it incredibly hard to do is ask for help? And that sometimes also comes in support.

So I am learning now, ripe old age. I'm 57 next week. Congrats. You look hot as hell. Thanks. I mean, like you, I feel like we're quite similar. I refuse to grow old gracefully. Yeah.

I am not doing it. No. No. I mean, no way. Hot pants. I'm going to be naughtier as I get older. Hot pants, yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. So. But being supported in something, I find it really, really hard to be vulnerable. and to say I'm really struggling, please can you help me? Same. And I'm learning how to do it. I don't even know how to say that to myself. Like sometimes I don't know that I've been struggling until it stops.

The struggle feeling stops. And then you can say to somebody, I've really been struggling, but I'm okay now. Yeah, exactly. How are you going to learn to stop doing that? I don't know. I've started by saying it, but I need to learn to demonstrate it. and I find that really uncomfortable. It makes me feel awkward.

Does it make you feel a bit scared of being left? Like if I'm this independent person, you're going to find me really attracted because I'm like this. But if I'm vulnerable and I show you, I need you, are you going to leave me? Because I'm saying that because that's how I felt in the past. And actually what I've realised is being vulnerable cements a relationship sometimes

because they're like, oh, you do need me. I kind of feel like not so worried about being left anymore because I've, and because I've been through this huge breakup. And you're fine. And I'm fine, yeah. And I think before maybe, before that one, I would have been worried about being left. What I'm worried about more than anything is that I've evolved as a feminist woman

in such a way that, there isn't a relationship for me because I will not tolerate, I find it difficult to tolerate less than what I expect. And because I set such high standards for myself, I think I set high standards for other people and I've become fussy and I didn't used to be fussy. I used to just be like, oh, we'll just fix it or we'll have a project and now I get very upset when I meet people and realize that I've grown an attachment to them, but they seem like a project and I find it, I don't want it. I really hope you're enjoying this episode.

And if you can, give us a follow. What I'm interested in is like dating in midlife is really, really hard, I think. Yeah. Because men don't stay single. Are they? Just like that single for about three minutes, the really good ones. You think, oh my God, where have they all gone? whereas women are so happy to stay on their own for ages.

And also as someone famous, how do you do that? How do you date? I try to not worry about being famous just in life in general because I don't think it's that healthy. No, but like, isn't it, can you go on dating apps? I did. Did you? Yeah, I don't like them.

I've written an article about it if anyone's more interested in the deeper thoughts. But I, yeah, with the fame thing, I just, it's not good for me or healthy for anyone if I get worried about it or become paranoid or whatever. Like, I can't do that. It's good for my kids or anything. So I just sort of go, everyone else who's worried about it, that's their thing, but I'm not. So I just carry on. I get on my bus sometimes.

Oh, yeah, I do that. I go on supermarket, whatever. I do all of that. I'm not bothered. But I was thinking dating. And I said I went on the dating app as me. Yeah. I mean, that's amazing.

But I don't really, I didn't look at anyone's messages that directly message me. I just looked at people that I'd like, so it was a match. I didn't like read anything appeals. Right. Because they all started with, I'm a big fan of your music. What? Definitely don't want to date someone who's a fan of my music. I only like people who think it's rubbish.

But, yeah, so I did that. And I don't think my experience of dating apps is much different to anybody else's because I'm famous. But I think it's a melting pot of damaged and, you know, resolved people. And I also think that a lot of men on there go on there for like an ego booths and use it like a really free way to get sex without attachment. So you've got to be careful on there. and I think maybe I was a bit naive when I did it at first. And also...

How long ago did you do it? Well, I've done it a couple of times, gone on and off, like people I go love-hate relationship with it. It started when I was just feeling like I was in that baby jail phase because when I broke up my ex, the baby was quite young. So when they were about one, I went, on it because you're always at home with the baby and they're putting them to bed and sitting next to the cot and all of that stuff.

You're just like, what am I going to do? Yes, okay, like just growing up. Ironically, I'd done that in the music video before I'd even broke up with my ex. I did a scene with a baby sat next to me. Oh, my God. And it was like a prophecy. Oh, my God. It was a kind of joke at the time and then I was like, the jokes become real.

Jokes on me. Yeah. But yeah, I just did it as kind of to feel the time waiting for the kids to go to sleep sort of thing. But I didn't do it in a serious way. But then I met some people and everyone's really damaged and I don't know. I don't have any answers. I don't think I would go on it again. I have deleted them all.

I don't think they're of interest to me. I think that I've got too much debt. for the people I met on there. Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing is the damage is quite interesting. I do that TV show called My Mum, Your Dad. Yeah. And it's eight to 12 single men and women

between sort of 45 and 50, well, 60. Yeah. But what is interesting about people at our time of life is that you come with a lot of baggage. And unless you are prepared to work through that, you won't have a healthy relationship. You've got to let go of the damage that's been done either to you or by you. Both are damaging.

I think both always apply anyway. Exactly. You can't to everything. Even just by your choices. Yes. Yeah. And even just that awareness is important. I mean divorce, I always think, is a 50-50 thing.

Yeah. I always say that on stage has been saying on the stage. I've been saying on this tour, like it takes two to get together just like it takes two to break up. Yeah. And people love to vilify and say, no, this person did this and they were the one that said it. But it's like, you don't say that, especially not when there's kids involved unless things are really bad. So everyone contributes. But, you know, if you or people, not one, if one is going to find a meaningful relationship in the future,

then everybody's got to start working through their own stuff. You know, you mentioned therapy earlier. Is that how you would work through something? I feel like it's a combination of things. It's plugging in with my really amazing support network. I've got amazing friends and I feel like they're, I attribute a lot to them. I think they're amazing, the women that I know.

So there's a lot about the sisterhood. And yes, I do therapy and I always have, but I've done different types of therapy because just psychotherapy doesn't, it's a little bit, I don't like, for me personally as somebody who's got ADHD, I like something a bit more structured and focused and short. Yes. With a target.

Sure. Rather than just like, well, just go and talk about, you know, so I've done one that really really. really helped me was called cat therapy, cognitive analytic therapy. Oh yeah. And it's only 16 to 24 weeks, but it's so targeted. Yeah. And I think I made my biggest breakthroughs after my breakup doing that type of therapy.

It really changed my lie, actually. The other thing about you is that you are incredibly honest, which I think frees other people up to be more honest. Why did you write the book? Was it to help others who might be going through a similar journey, but also to know that you can still be yourself and fun? Yeah, I was still in there. I guess simultaneously giving myself permission to be myself while writing it,

but also, and it was validating the reception it had of people going, thank you, because I felt like that. But I also think that when I was looking at Lips, about this point in life where a lot of us are who are more like women with careers tend to have babies later. And then we're looking, we're basically like, career, career, career, career, career, career, baby, perimenopause, menopause. Like it's like squashed in at the end. It's like all these overwhelming things. And then I just felt like there wasn't much literature about me as a person.

It was all about how to look after a baby. But not how to look after myself. Yes. Because you, originally the working title for it was the birth of a mother. But then I realized I'd written more about also just about being a woman in general and about women who don't have kids and about how mothers come in many forms, not just biological children. And so it was the wrong title in the end.

But it was sort of about giving birth to yourself when you give birth initially. And it was that feeling that like I didn't feel that there was much out there for me. I felt a bit isolated. So I wrote it for that. I've been thinking about the power of community lately, thanks to our favourite creative tool and sponsor Adobe Express. You might know it as the quick and easy create anything app from Adobe, but it's also a really buzzing creative network.

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and get the app for free. Sunday Times best seller like straight off the bat, right? Yeah, it was nine weeks as the best sell. Isn't that amazing? I couldn't believe it, honestly. I just couldn't believe it. What do you think it was that spoke to people? I think it's just the honest, the true.

And then feeling validated. Seen. And not so bad, not so hard on yourself. For having things like ideal talking about the fact that I didn't immediately connect with the baby. Like stuff like that that we're ashamed to talk about. My haemorrhoids, that's a favourite of mine. Like, yeah, body positivity. I'd love to be body positive.

It was difficult for me at that time to be. All these things that we're not allowed to say because the zeitgeist is that we've got to nail everything. And we just don't have to nail everything. I also want to talk to you about the glorification of sadness because I'm so into this idea of a chronological album. Can you tell me, when did you write it? Was it last year? Well, it started, I started writing it before my breakup when it was sort of, yeah, and then it just goes through the whole process and then

dating again at the end. What was it like and how long did it take you to write it? Because if you were writing it while you were still leaving. Yeah. It was about sort of 18 months. Really? What kind of music do you like? What do you listen to? All kinds. Right. So it depends on what I'm doing at the time.

But for this album... Who were you channeling? I didn't do much referencing other music because it felt very pure. Yes. It was like so raw and like present that it didn't really... It kind of came out of me.

And a lot of... It's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. Amazing how as well, like, musicians are very empathetic people. So quite often we'd start with me just sitting, crying and saying, like, what would happen that day or something, just feeling like a failure. And then they'd just be so full of empathy that they'd translate it into music.

I want to talk to you about Milf. Yeah. Because there's a certain sort of. sort of irreverence that I just fucking love about you and always have done. And what is your plan? Like, how do you see yourself in 20 years time? Well, I don't believe that if you're creative, I don't think the medium's relevant. I think you just keep making stuff and it doesn't matter how you express it. So I'll keep doing that because I don't know how to do anything else And it's all a journey.

And I don't think an artist's work really stops until they're dead. Yeah. So you just keep going. So I might be writing films or be in them or write more books or whatever, music or all. But 20 years time, I feel, I hope that my kids still like me. That's my main thing. And I think that I will, in 20 years time, perhaps be the right age for my personality. So tell me about that.

Do you not feel the right age for your personality now? No, I'm getting closer. The older I get, the closer I feel I'm getting. But like I feel like I've always been sort of silly and fun in a way that I think suits an older person. Like that no shit's given thing. Yes. And everyone else feels quite inhibited to me.

Yes. And I feel like I'm just. just not. Like, I don't, I was talking to somebody this morning, actually, and they were saying what their bugbear was, like what their trigger is. And mine, I realized just from having this conversation this morning, is being misunderstood.

I said, I don't care about being embarrassed. Like, I don't really get that. Like, I don't, like, really care. Like, people are always, like, saying to me, when I, like, if I need a wee, I'll just go for a wee. That's my thing. I'll just go between cars or whatever. people are like, pro my faith, behind the car weeing.

And I was like, I don't care. That's the least of my problems. I just don't care. Do you know what happened to me once? I was weeing between two-part cars. Did you become a meme? Thank God it was pre-camera. I was wean between two-part cars and there was someone in one of the cars and they turned

their lights on. And you can't stop, you know, like I was mid-wee. I was like, hi, hi. Sorry. The full flow. But yeah, I feel like I'm really looking forward to aging. And I feel like when we say to each other that we are never going to get old, it's because I feel like I've been the same age my whole life.

I was born an age, which I think is about 35. And I think I'll continue to be 35 until the day I die. But my wardrobe is definitely geared towards somebody. in their 80s. What'd you want? I hope so. No, so you've got to keep dressing outrageously for the rest of your life. No, that's what I mean.

Oh, good. You know, like, I feel like my current wardrobe of an 80-year-old, quite cool woman. I want to keep wearing it. You think that's an 80-year-old woman? The 80-year-old woman I want to be is there. Okay, if you stay like that to your idea, I'll be very happy. Do you follow that advanced style person? No.

He does all the photos, street photography of retired people in amazing outfit. No. That's where I get a lot of styled hips. When I go on that site for advice? From like older women who've like, there's this one lady who dyes her hair orange and she cuts the ends of her hair off and uses the ends as her eyelashes and she just glues her orange dyed hair onto her eyelids. Genius.

So good. So moving forward with your life, I feel like a bit like I was at your age. You know, what's quite nice is I feel we're quite similar. We've got kids the same age. You know, I had them at the same age as you. I had one a little bit earlier. I had one at 33, then 36, then 39. So we're very similar.

So you will be me at my age. Well, that sounds like a brilliant advertisement. I love that. I've definitely, when I was around your age, started on a journey. and I wasn't sure where I was going, I wanted and I'm still going. Tell me. Because I feel like I just read the D-Miranda July book, All Fours,

and it blew my mind. Say that again, I don't know that book. She's written a book called All Fours, Miranda-July, and I read it, and it blew my mind because I felt like it was a kind of weird, surreal interpretation of exactly where I'm at. my lie and if anybody is watching hasn't read it should he's in their like early 40s and is you know a creative minded personal or rejects societal norms or whatever like it's so it's really made me excited about the future because it I do have this feeling to sort of be

beginning again but like I have this feeling that now I'm having another lie. And I've started it. And that's scary and all those things. But what I love about the person I am today that I wasn't when I was 21 starting adulthood is that I know what I like. I know how to say no to things I don't like.

And I'm really kind of empowered by it. Like I feel sexier than I ever was. I feel like, you know, more silly. I feel more immature. almost like in a but then i've got all the important practical things covered in a really mature way like you know the house is in order the kids have dropped at the right time they're albeit a bit late sometimes but like yeah i you know i feel that's all taken care of but now it's the beginning of a new life what were you like um in terms of style and when when you had babies i totally disappeared

into what I thought a responsible mother should look like. What were you like? I can't look at photos of myself when my kids were little. I am literally, I don't recognise myself. I'm so straight. Yeah, yeah. No, I kept the clothes, but I maybe should have gone straighter in the ternity wear

because it's really awful. What, when you were pregnant? Yeah, that's so funny. There's awful pap shots of me that I just, I can't believe it online because they use those lenses anyway that are just unforgiving. But I look like the size of a house and I'm wearing like a marvell tax bright yellow t-shirt and there's one where it's just like it's all,

it's like I was refusing to go down that. But in doing so, I just look crazy because it's not. I love that though. It's not dressing for the body. My daughter always says to me, because she's seen the photographs, obviously, her childhood is so well documented. Yeah. And she's always like, when I have kids, don't let me dress like that. I said, I know, I don't know what.

What was it like, just really stayed? No, do you know, I mean, this is how I like to dress. I like to dress. I'm a peacock. Yeah. So I like getting up in the morning and thinking I want to. And it starts with my underwear. I wear banging underwear.

Me too. Do you? Yeah, always, because I worked in Asian Provocator for three years. Of course you did. So I can't. I knew you then. It's all matching. Yes, okay.

You knew me as a shop assistant. Yeah, I came in, I remember you. Brilliant. Yeah. That's such a girl. But I always, I always loved Ajean provocateur. Yeah. But I'm, are you wearing banging underwear today?

Yeah. I've got an AP set on. Have you? What color? It is black, but it's a lacy one. No, but it's lacy. Yeah. I can't even remember.

I don't even care if no one sees it. I think I might be wearing the same one, but in the black. Purple. But you know what? It's not about who else sees it. No, it's about the way you feel. Yeah. And I get dressed from the bottom up.

Yeah. Oh my God. We're literally the same person. It's so important to how I feel about myself for the day. But when I had children, it was almost like... You bought a pair of packet pans. I did. Three packs.

Cotton. Yeah. I had a five-pack. White- beige, black. Five-pack. Over the belly button. Who were we? Me and my best friend actually jokingly say

sometimes like to each other, don't go to the packet pants era. You can't go back now. That's exactly what my daughter is saying to me. Yes. And my mum keeps buying my packet pants. But I do think they have their place. Like after a C-section, It's bliss.

Okay, yes. But that's necessity. Yeah, it was blit. Like, literally you pull them on. One of my besties just had a C-section. And I was like, you throw these away as soon as you're back to normal. But these, this packet pants you're going to love. And she texts me afterwards, it was like, these are heaven.

I find out the biggest size you could buy, size 20, 22, whatever. And you just put them on. It doesn't matter what size you are, but the best. Yeah. After a C-section. Yeah. Really important. I mean, I lost myself, I think.

And I had three kids, two years apart and then three years apart. And I lost myself for quite a long time, like 10 years. Yeah. Of just. And then I suddenly started thinking, hang on a minute, I'm, who am I? Yeah, that's what that's about the book. Because that's why it's the eye for identity. So say someone is watching this and.

They are a woman. They are, they've kind of lost themselves. Like we did a bit. They're stuck. Top five things that a woman could do to help her start again, to help her begin again. Like you said, touched on in the interview, always say your feelings and like hopefully you'll be,

they'll be received. And if they're not, then move on. Yeah. Because it doesn't work. My big one for me is because I felt quite miserable yesterday and I put on this massive red furry coat because I was like, oh, I always put this coat on when I'm feeling my worst

and I look like Sesame Street character in it. I've got a green fake fur coat that I put on. You'll know I need a hug if I've got the green fake fur coat on. So I was like, just shove that on the red lips and you're like, fine. So I'd say put on your wall paint and don't let it slip because that's important. I would say don't be afraid to make huge changes because everything will always be okay.

And initially when you make a big change, you do grieve what you lost inevitably, and that's part of the process. But you will come back to something of joy of happiness or contentment again, even if you think you've made a mistake. Because there's no point living life in a permanent state of regret. You go, I did this. Maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but I'm going to sit with it until I feel better. And it will come back. But change is always good. I love change.

Even if it's not right. Yeah. Just keep changing until you get that. But it's so important. Just gross. But I think you can get a bit, I can get a bit addicted to change. I'm like, no, switch again, switch. They're like, how many switches?

What else? I was wondering about being yourself, like, how do you find out? Because I'm thinking about people who are like, who am I? Okay. I feel like the who am I question is potentially damaging because you're everyone and everything. Great. So I just think it's really sort of maybe a bit restrictive

to put yourself under that pressure to wonder who you are. all the time. And it's okay to accept that you're all of those things. And I've had people weaponise like who they thought I was against me before and say, but you're this and you said you were this

and I said, yes, that day I felt like that. I changed my mind. But today I'm not that. And that's okay. Like you've got to accept the whole person and I think we're all so kind of indoctrated to feeling that we have to know who we are

and none of us know. And I don't think we should either. Because it comes out unconsciously. Well, then you can't really change if you sort of go, I'm this person. Yeah, then you're stuck. So we love change. So we can be whoever we want. Just change hourly.

And then I think we could end on lingerie. Yeah, dressed from the bottom of the outfit out. So we wear nice lingerie, don't we? Every day. Just to feel good. Yeah, for ourselves. For ourselves, yeah. Mm.

Paloma, I just. I adore you. I've loved talking to you. Can I also just please stress to anybody that is what you're listening, please get this book. It will change your life. And it goes with my album. It's the same. They're like a pairing. And get the album. I don't know why I'm holding this. The invisible album. Download the album. Honest to God, the two together, it's very, very powerful.

Thank you. You are inspirational. And thank you for sharing your experience. because I know you're changing lives. If you do anything today, please go and buy that book, go and buy Milf and listen to this album because it is so gut-wrenching and you have to listen to it chronologically and really get into the lyrics. It is, I don't understand why Paloma Faith isn't kind of a stadium-selling artist.

She has an extraordinary voice, but not only that, she makes you feel this is her rawest of albums. And she's powerful. Please download it.