Begin Again with Davina McCall - Paul C Brunson: Should You Stay In A Marriage Without Sex? Never Ignore This Sign After An Argument!

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina sits down with renowned relationship expert Paul C. Brunson, a trusted voice on Married at First Sight UK and professional matchmaker. In this episode Paul shares the psychology behind dating and relationships, uncovering why we choose the partners we do and how anyone, at any age, can change their dating patterns to create more fulfilling connection. Paul offers practical insights into the steps we can all take to transform our relationships and make meaningful choices in love. Paul hosts the We Need to Talk podcast, where he explores these topics and more. Listen here: https://www.youtube.com/@WeNeedToTalk-Podcast Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro (01:18) How To Tell If A Relationship Is Worth Saving (04:20) Setting Priorities & Expectations In Relationships (06:55) Should You Stay Together For The Kids? (08:51) Dating Again: Finding Love The Second Time Around (12:07) Tips For Feeling Younger And More Energetic (12:39) Self-Acceptance: The Key To Peace And Confidence (14:36) Confronting Inner Demons And Embracing Self-Acceptance (16:35) Being Your True Self But Still Struggling To Find Love? (19:57) Keeping The Spark Alive In Long-Term Relationships (21:40) How To Be Unapologetically Yourself (22:30) Building A Support Network That Champions You (23:16) Becoming Your Authentic Self (24:13) How To Find Love In Midlife (27:30) Fiverr Ad (28:20) Adobe Ad (29:17) Can You Really Save A Failing Relationship? (31:31) Healthy Conflict Resolution In Relationships (32:51) Why Partners Should Be On The Same Team (33:49) How To Handle Constructive Feedback In Relationships (37:06) Is Intimacy Essential In Long-Term Relationships? (40:40) Secrets To A Fulfilling Sex Life (42:34) How To Initiate Better, Spontaneous Intimacy (47:36) We Need To Talk (48:30) Find Love (49:34) Key Takeaways (51:04) Zoe Ad Sponsored by: Fiverr - https://fvrr.co/davina Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ ZOE - https://zoe.com and use code DAVINA10 SetArtwork provided by Kimi Zoet. Enquiries: [e-mail] https://g2ul0.app.link/oQMAPbdSGNb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruitflies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen, these little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. 80% of marriages today, they don't feel satisfied with their partner.

80%. Oh my God. Now, what does that mean? The number one reason for separation is not infidelity. It's not poor communication. You know what it is? It's you're with the wrong partner. You meet someone, the flame is really strong, right?

And it's burning hot and you're like hot and passionate, and it's all new and everything. But towards the end of a relationship, you just go, and it's gone. how can you revitalize a stagnant relationship? There's a couple places. One, I'm always going to say this, is who you choose as a partner is one of the most important decisions of your life. So when I see people break away from that relationship, typically I'm happy. What I'm really sad about are those that stay. It's one thing to be alone, but it's another thing to be in a relationship.

And lonely. There are more people in the 50-plus dating market. than ever before. And they're entering relationships that are much stronger. If you are 50 plus single sexiaity, I'm like, okay, yes, you go get yours now.

You've done it. How did you do it? To have love, you need to have three components. One is intimacy. Two is passion. And three is... Ah, yes. Paul Brunson, so lovely to have you here. We're going to be talking relationships

and discussing how to navigate them in midlife, which I think it's a very busy time in term of relationships, but I really wanted to kick off by asking you, say a couple have been together for 20 years, like they've just become passing ships in the night. They don't work together. They've got kids. Their kids are slightly growing up, and they're kind of dreading empty nest. How can you revitalize a sort of stagnant relationship? First, and this is going to sound counter to everything I stand for, right? But first is you should evaluate, are you even in the right one?

The right one. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because I believe that the number one reason for separation is not infidelity. It's not poor communication. You know what it is? It's you're with the wrong partner. And not even did you select the wrong partner, but you allowed yourself to be selected.

And this is something that I believe a disproportionate. proportionate amount of women have done. You should assess, are you even in the right relationship? Is this the right partner for you? And a great way to determine if you're in a relationship with someone who is the right one for you, are they making any effort to better themselves and the relationship? Yes. This is very important because if you're with a partner who says, you know what, therapies, no, no, no, no, I don't need that. Coaching? No, no, no. I don't need that. Reading a book with you on our relationship, I don't need that.

If someone believes as if they have no desire to grow, especially for themselves or for you, that is someone who you can't be in a relationship with. I always would say to my kids or my friends, do you like yourself with that person? If you are making that effort to change or to adapt to that person, but you've adapted yourself to a point where you don't recognize yourself anymore, then again, maybe that's not the right person for you because you can't be yourself. No, no, no. If let's say you're in a relationship with that person and you decide, let's still try to make it work,

it will never reach the heights of what it could be. And that means that you then are taking away from your own life. When we're in a partnership with someone who we can have a close emotional connection with, what that means is that we live longer. It means that we're healthier. It means that we're happier. There are studies that show that we make more money as a result of that. When you're in a relationship with a strong partner, you get nothing but upside, opposed to a partner who's going to create more stress for you.

You get every benefit in life. So that means, to me, that who you choose as a partner is one of the most important decisions of your life. Paula, I'm really interested in this because also I see nowadays people, men and women, come to the dating scene with a checklist that is impossible to tick off. You're not the one, shoes, or you're not the one, you were five minutes late. I mean, just really kind of ridiculous things where actually I think sometimes when you fall in love with someone, all of those little things that you would have looked at. looked at your checklist from five, ten years ago, none of them matter because you love the core of someone, but you're not going to know that until you meet them and spend some time with them. What the people with the big checklist do?

In the matchmaking agency, what I noticed is that there were certain people who would come in with literally, Devinna, like 150 items on their checklist. And things like good feet, like toe nails need to be trimmed, like all of these little, these nuances. Now, I get it. To nails trimmed is important. But if they don't come with toenails trimmed, is that a deal breaker? Yeah. But then there were others who would come with one or two items on the list.

Like what would be the one or two items that you'd see? So one of my favorite clients ever, she was 76 years old. Oh, amazing. 76. Fantastic. She had lived life fully. And she said, Paul, I just want one thing. Go on.

I want a man with one thing. You know what that was? What? I want him to be able to be able to. to walk up to the third flight, because that's where I lived. I just need him to walk up the stairs. And I thought, are you serious? That's it?

Like, you don't care what he looks like. Religion, ethnicity, nationality. What she was saying, kind of tongue-in-cheek, was... Active or able. Able. I want him to be able. Everything else I can work with. Yes.

Typically in our 20s and 30s, we have a lower priority list because you're trying to work things out. As we go up to our 40s, kind of mid-40s, at this point, we begin to have the highest checklist. Right, the longest. The longest checklist. Okay. But then as we get older, the checklist goes down and down and down. Also, I think that there is a commonality among the checklist and well-being. What do you mean?

Those of us who have the highest well-being have the lowest checklist. Those of us who have the lowest well-being have the highest checklist. So actually you see a high checklist or if you've got a high checklist, you need to look at yourself and do a bit of work on yourself. Absolutely. I think the other thing that people do in midlife often is stay together for the kids. Yes. It's not only one of the worst things you can do for yourself, but one of the worst things you can do for your children. Yeah.

There are so many unhealthy rules that we have around parenting and children. So one is let's stay together for the kids. A part of that also is let's not. argue in front of the kids. We can have our disagreements. Let's make sure that we close the door and then go ahead. Why is that so detrimental? It's so detrimental because the children don't understand how to have a resolution to a conflict. They don't understand. They are learning through their parents, what their parents do, what their parents say. They need to be able to observe a parent or two parents resolving the issue. This is very important. When you stay together,

for the kids, the assumption is that the kids don't realize that you're miserable. Yeah, but they know, don't they? Like, they can see it. They can see it. Yeah. And you know what's worse? You know what's terrible? When you talk to many of those children, you know what they'll say? They'll say, I'm the reason why my parents are miserable, because they're staying together for me. Right. So therefore, I'm to blame. So the parents, what they're doing is actually backfiring, staying together for the children,

is not the best strategy, not the best strategy at all. And I think as well, like as parents, if you can be an adult in the divorce and divorced together but do it in as nice a possible way for the children, I think it's important that kids are part of the negotiation, you know, that they understand what it's going to be like going forwards, that even though you're apart, you're still together, united as mum and dad,

but we're just going to be living apart to make it as painless as possible. This idea of people staying in a relationship for a very long time is an unhappy relationship is a sad one. We talked about the kids. But the other thing I thought was interesting, I do a dating show, and it's about second time round as Finding Love. And when we're casting for that show, we find it quite easy to find women

because women are more likely to leave and then stay single for, two, three, four, ten, fifteen years while they bring up kids. Men stay single, it seems for about three minutes. Have you kind of looked into that or thought like, why does that happen? Yeah, there are a couple of things going on there. One is, if you look at society, we are still living in a patriarchy. What does that really mean when it comes to relationships?

What does that really mean? What it means is that we still place a premium on men. in the dating market. And as men get older, they have even moved. Because... The good ones. Yeah, the good ones.

You know what? That reminds me, we had something called the matchmaker number, which is terrible, but it was the truth. And that was that typically, when a woman would come in

to the matchmaking agency, she would say, I want a man who is older than me. So my age or older. the man would say, I want a woman who is one half my age plus seven. Now, he wouldn't say that exactly, but that was the matchmaker number. So you think about that.

So if you are a 50-year-old man... So it's hopeless. Yeah. But think about that. If you're a 50-year-old man, 1-5-25 plus 7, 32. Right. Does a 50-year-old man want a 32-year-old woman? Definitely.

On average. Yes. I mean, yes, I've seen that happen in my circle of friends. Yes. Yeah, yeah. How funny. Yeah. And the woman, like somebody maybe a year or two older, but da-da-da-da.

But she'll take up, she'll take up to 50, though. Let me tell you a secret. When I got divorced, I don't get approached by men very often because I'm famous, so I'm a bit scary. He can vouch them, not at all, but like, no. Not at all. Not at all. But I am a little bit. But I got approached by maybe two or three people in the few months after I got divorced.

And all of them, they ranged from 25 to 40 and I was 50. That's quite interesting. So nobody wants to marry you, like, or be with you in a long-time relationship, which is kind of, I don't want to go and have sex everywhere. But that's what they want. They're thinking, for older lady, you know, experience. But, you know, you have something else. going for you, which is really good. You are incredibly youthful.

So that's a very sexy trait. And it's not about wrinkles and stuff. I think it's an attitude. It is how you show up. It is how you walk. It is how you talk. It is how you dress. Based on how I'm dressed right now,

there are people saying, oh my God, look at what this guy has on. I'll never listen to him. Where others are saying, look at how he's dressed. I will listen to him. You know, it's funny because there are things that I have started doing as I get older. And I was trying to come and I was trying to come up.

up with a list of things that I feel make me feel more youthful. One of them, I walk with purpose. Yes, you do. Always. Like, I walk like I'm going somewhere. Like, even if I'm kind of meandering, I think, walk with purpose, because it makes me feel like I'm on it. I've got somewhere to go.

I know this sounds absolutely mad, but my boyfriend was, my boyfriend got his teeth done. I've known him for 26 years. I've known him for such a long time. He got his teeth done. He got braces. You Americans, you're so good at this stuff. We're late to the game on this, us brits,

but getting my teeth done. And everybody's like, why are you doing that? We're kind of shaming to people that want to improve themselves. Getting my teeth on. Best thing I ever did, self-love is also loving yourself enough to make an effort for yourself. Yes. And it begins to then, I think, speak to the seeking of not placing value in how extraordinary you are.

Right. And I think this is key. like we all, each of us, and I fully believe this, we are extraordinary. Yes, everyone. I totally agree. Everyone is extraordinary. And when you really think about, what does that mean? What does that mean?

It means that you are extra ordinary. You're not ordinary. It means there's no one that is like you. No one. And no one will ever be like you again. And there has never been anyone who's walked this earth who's been like Divina. So you are extraordinary. You're extraordinary.

So as a result of that, think about all of you and just put a spotlight on it, opposed to taking it out, opposed to covering it up. Instead, put a spotlight on all of the pieces that make you you. That's a place that I love to see people move towards. And I think that's also part of why you are so loved is because I feel. as if that's what you do. You say, this is who I am. I'm going to fully self-accept, which self-acceptance, by the way,

is a key piece to high well-being. And self-acceptance, to me, is even more powerful than self-love. Because self-acceptance is saying, I know all the demons. Yes, warts and all. And I'm okay with it. I've learned from them.

That's self-acceptance. Can I ask for something there? Like, what happens if someone has a demon and what do you do when you can't quite get past something you've done? Are there bad people? Absolutely. David Bus wrote a phenomenal book called Bad Boys. And he looked at what is called the Dark Tetrad.

Have you heard about these folks? No. Oh, all right. The Dark Tetrad, they are bad. These are the psychopaths, the sadists, the narcissists, McAvelians. right, who are purposely trying to manipulate in a bad way. In a bad way, right?

So there are bad people. And unfortunately, when you are a psychopath, when you are a narcissist, et cetera, there typically is no coming back from that. You are that forever. So it's like you have to manage that. But when you were that, those things, you typically are not empathetic. Would you be able to see it in yourself if you were as well? Because I feel like I know a couple of narcissists and they would never say they were a narcissist.

They would never say it. Yeah. Because they're not able to step outside of themselves and feel empathy. So as a result, that person that you're talking about, he seems like he's self-aware and he realizes, oh, my bad. I shouldn't have done this. And I feel remorseful for this, et cetera. And how many of us are good people that did a bad thing? Yeah, all of us.

I was like, I don't think there's one person that's not done a matter. There's not one. There's not one person, right? You are a good person that exhibited bad behavior at a certain point. That is powerful. And you are not in this group over here. I think that's a great place to start. I really hope you're enjoying this episode.

And if you can, give us a follow. So I spoke to a friend of mine the other day. she's menopausal. She lives in Berlin. She's a DJ. She's super cool. When she DJs, you've never seen anything more beautiful. She puts a little feeling into it.

Sometimes she'll cry playing a record. She's like unbelievably hot and attractive while she's doing that. She's been single for, I think she said, eight years. Okay. But she said, people see me on stage, but I'm not that person. And I saw her and she was, like, lovely, but she sort of wasn't weighing any makeup. She was wearing trainers and a track suit. And I thought to myself in my head, and I must have this conversation with it,

but I thought you are that person. You are that hot woman on there. Why don't you bring a little bit of her to your day life? Is that a right thing to do? Because I sometimes feel like if I say to somebody, get up in the morning as if you're having a date, but you're actually just having a date with yourself. Like, why don't you feel like that every day?

Right. There's so many places I would go in terms of trying to figure out how to help her because she was my main client for 10 years where most of my clients were super successful women who would show up one way at work and be looked upon as like a God, basically, right? And then to walk out of work and feel like, okay, I'm not getting any attention. Invisible. I'm invisible and I don't know why. And so she sounds like that. That's exactly how she feels. There's so many, you know, places to go. But one key question that I would ask her is, what is she doing to engage with people?

Because typically what I've found is that women and men in those positions, there's so much going on in the workplace that once they're out, they just want to disconnect. Yeah. Put on their slippers. Put on their slippers. Right, binge watch, right, some Netflix, like whatever, you know, and just eat ice cream out of the thing and just, just, right, before they put on that mask and go back. And so that would be my question is like, what are you doing?

The other part to that too is it's so important to engage in places that were passionate, but in circles that are unfamiliar to us. Right. This is very important. Yes, okay. So you think about the fact that she's a DJ, she's a creative genius. Yes, she really is. So creativity is a huge value to her for her. But I would say you said she lives in Berlin, right?

So what would happen if she would come to South London, where I live, go to Brixton, go to the black cultural archives and participate in a painting, you know, a painting class. There. The reason why is you want to step out of the circles that you are used to and go to new circles. This is incredibly important. Of creative, of her kind of thing. Of similar values. Yes, yes. Okay. Because she will be appreciated. She will feel the connection, but she will meet new people.

You know, living in London, I was born in New York, lived in Washington, D.C., now live in London. Massive cities. However, you talk to most people, they say, I see the same people every weekend. Why? Because we all live in these micro circles within larger circles, within larger circles, within larger circles. The key to meet new people, to add value and insight and not just romance, but business opportunities and friendships. All of these things is you have to step out and you have to step to places where you are uncomfortable. I put myself in this category. One of the key reasons why my wife and I decided,

consciously decided to move to London was we were like, we don't know anybody here. Yeah. Like we know no one here. And as a result of coming here, we're going to be forced into new circles. We're going to be forced into novelty. And that novelty is going to spark

all types of beautiful things in our lives. And also beautiful things in our relationship. Because what keeps a relationship going is novelty. And when you have to experience something new with your partner, it's you and your partner taking on the new thing. You know, you're learning new things, but you're also on the same team.

Have you felt this way as, as you get older, you become more unapologetic? Yes. Oh my God, well, I mean, the world's got to brace themselves because the next 10 years are going to be very... It's crazy. Yeah, it's like, this is how I feel,

but I feel so... like happier. Yeah. You know? So, and it's not like just carefree. But you've done it. How did you do it? Because I think there will be lots of people going, I want to be like that.

It takes time. Like, it's one of these where right when I walked in, you know, I was talking about this, this, this no stud that I have is I have wanted this no stud since 1999. You know what I mean? Since watching Tupac. Like, that was my. I was like, Tupac got that no sted. I love that.

Then, you know, I graduated from college, getting to investment banking, I have to wear a suit. Oh, I have a mask. Oh, you could never, you could have a no stud, never. And then I moved to the next stop. Never you can have the no stud. They start doing television. Oh, you could never do television with a no stunt. No one, oh, no one's ever going to listen to you, Paul, with a nose sign.

It's like, no, you know what? I'm getting a freaking nose. And I think a large part of that, and this is connecting, I think, to this conversation is being around a group of people who cheer for you. With or without the thing, they adore you. They cheer for you. Many of us are in circles and around people and they only are. They're trying to keep you in the box and they only like you for the thing or not the thing. So they're the one saying, as a result of the no stud, we would never be able to.

But this circle that I have over here, they're like, whatever, whatever, like, do whatever. And that then allows you to tap into, well, what are the things that I truly do like and experiment with those things? So it's a journey to becoming your true self? Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I think, says it best. And this is, in essence, what I'm saying around the people who support you is that, you know, it starts off with, with these basic needs of, okay, do we have food and shelter and, you know, do we feel safe? If you can't have those things, you can't express yourself because you're not concerned. But then it moves into do you feel like you have connection and belonging and love and support.

Then once you have those things, you can move to a higher place of being self-evolved. And this is the place where I feel like. where we're all trying to get to. We're all trying to get there. We're all trying to get there. And interestingly, Maslow said that very few of us will get to that place. But you can't just leapfrog to that. You have to move through the levels.

So you said something earlier about guys looking for somebody half their age plus seven and women looking for somebody older. How are we ever going to meet each other in our 50s, if that's the case? Oh, 40s, 40s, 50s in midlife. Yeah. Well, one is that's the old, slowly going away. Has it gone away? No, but that's one. That's one. Secondly, is on an upside is there are more people in the 50 plus dating market looking for partners than ever before, ever before. I mean, half of me is quite sad about that, but half of me is quite happy because for the 50 and 40 year olds, like, well done. Yes, yes. And the reason why I feel so happy, I'm more happy. Okay.

Because, all right, I'm going to connect it to research. Yeah, yeah. So Eli Finkel out of New York has done some research around the satisfaction rate in relationships, in marriages. He found that 80% of marriages today are not, they don't feel satisfied with their partner. 80%. 80%. 80%. That's sad.

80%. whereas 20% feel as satisfied or more satisfied than ever. Now, what does that mean and how do I relate that to being happy with the 50 plus market? So to me, that means, okay, the 20% this is great. And they're probably so happy because they have so many tools today, so many great podcasts, et cetera, to listen to. This is good. The 80% are not satisfied, but they're staying in the relationship anyway.

So when I see people break away from that relationship, typically I'm happy. What I'm really sad about are those that stay. You know, it's one thing to be alone, but it's another thing to be in a relationship and still feel alone. That is just incredibly sad. So if you are 50 plus single sexy out here, I'm like, okay, yes, you go get yours now. You go get yours. And the beauty is you could get yours any way you want it. You don't have to get married.

You can have a committed relationship. You can choose to have a polyamorous relationship. You could choose to have whatever formation you want. But you now have the availability to do it. And because there are more 50 plus than ever before, the pool is larger. There's more tools now to connect. So from that standpoint, I'm optimistic about that. The other thing is when you look at the ages in which people are getting married,

you still have the, I think, mid-30s is the number one age range for marriage, but number two is right around 50. So you have a lot of people who have re-entered the dating market for whatever reason, empty nest, et cetera, and they're deciding and they're finding partners. and they're finding partners and they're entering relationships that are much stronger than any relationship they've ever had.

And to me, that is beautiful. So I'm happy about those things. We're taking a quick break to talk about today's sponsor Fiverr. Have you experienced the immediate panic when you're asked to create something on the computer but you have absolutely no idea how to do it for me at social media?

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most transformative chapter of your life is waiting for you. There must be a percentage of people that are dissatisfied, but would love to try and make it better. They still love that person, but it's not the percentage of people we were talking about at the beginning who probably shouldn't be together. These are people where I always talk about love like a pilot light. You meet someone, the flame is really strong, right? And it's burning hot and you're like hot and passion. and it's all new and everything. And through life, you know, it can go down and go up and go down and go up. But towards the end of a relationship, it goes down really, really low.

And it's very fragile. And at some point, one of you, or maybe both of you do it at the same time, but you just go, and it's gone. And it's literally like, light goes out, pilot lights gone, it's gone. But if it's still there and you want to make it go, like you want to make it go, like you want to make a go of it what can you do to save your relationship you know that was a brilliant analogy

I may have to use that if you use it you know like in this interview where you've gone quote quote like Oprah said this blah blah said that like please and Davina McCall this is brilliant but you know what as you

because as you said it I could picture it was going up going down and going up and then you decided to blow it out that's exactly what happens. And for most of that, you're probably hoping I wanted to stay on. Yes. And for that 80% I'm with you. I think most of those are people who you have one, at least one of the two, that say,

I want to keep it on. And the other thing that we have to, I think, give credit to is there are a significant number of men because I think men are bashed on this issue. They are, I think. Unfairly. Yes. Where there are a significant number of men every day. Who are working at it.

Who are working at it. I got this Bible's message from a gentleman just yesterday telling me about how over the last 10 years he's been trying everything to make his relationship work. And he got to the point at the end where he's literally saying, Paul, I'm crying because I want this to work. What do I do? And that's what you're asking. What do I do? Yes. So there's a couple places.

One, I'm always going to say this, is counseling therapy incredibly. important. It is accessible. And there are many forms of therapy, many forms. Can you tell me a few? Absolutely. So therapy, as I describe it, means healing. It is healing. Healing can come from different sources. So therapists are incredibly brilliant at this. But you can also be healed by a counselor, which is slightly different than a therapist, by a coach, slightly different than a therapist, by a great friend, by a mediator, by a pastor at a church. All of these represent therapy. But you know what also represents therapy?

Sitting down watching a YouTube video together, listening to a podcast. Yes, I mean, that's quite a new type of way of, and I don't think people in midlife in their 40s and 50s would necessarily think of that straight away. That's a brilliant idea. Yeah. And the thing about this is that sitting down watching a podcast together on any relationship, relationship topic as a partnership and then discussing it means that you are now on a pathway to managing the problem. So that is therapy, right? You're working on the tools to manage the problem.

That's healing. And if both of you prepare to do that, I think, you know, you might look at your partner and go, wow, look, they're willing to come to this with me. Thanks. Already you're winning, right? Already you're winning. That is a quick step. And that is a high return from the quick step. Right. So that's incredibly important. Another area is the individual work. And a lot of people don't automatically think about that because they're in a relationship and they say,

okay, well, the problem is actually what my partner's behavior. It's not mine. But sometimes we don't realize how our behavior, I'll just say impacts our partner and either increases. their willingness to continue to act like an asshole to us, or decreases that or mitigates that. And so understanding how we show up, why we show up is incredibly important. And part of that analysis can be done simply by asking your partner to give you feedback. How many of us have turned to our partner to say? I don't think I've ever done that.

How did I do that? How did I do in that? The only time that ever comes up sometimes is after sex, people will say, well, how did that work for you? Right? But how about just if you were having a disagreement, you know, and I say an argument, right? And to then literally the next day say, you know, did you find that, was I fair in that? Or was I not? I mean, that's so healthy, isn't it?

Like, how lovely. Wow. It's a game changer. Yeah. I, for years, thought I was the most fair. I was like, this is what I do. I'm so proud. I was like, when it comes to these with my wife, Jill,

I am the best person to have an argument with, you know what I mean? The best. And there was a moment where I asked, I was like, okay, Joe, what do you think? And she said, you know, I find that you're unkind in these arguments. But that's such a brilliant way to word that, because it's not saying you're unkind. she's saying, this is how I perceive you. Yes. So it's not like you're not going to get defensive.

I mean, obviously, you know each other very well, but she's said that brilliantly. Yeah. The fact that she said in these scenarios, what she did is actually textbook. One is that psychology is her background too. So she knows what she's saying. She's really good. Is that she used a technique that is very effective. And that is that typically when we enter a disagreement, any person,

you look at it as you, you versus your partner. This is how we typically look at it. But instead, I would say reframe, and this will change your every argument. And that is, it is you, it is your partner against the issue. Brilliant. Against each other? No, no, no. You're dealing with this thing over here.

It's this thing over here that we're dealing with. But visually, that's so helpful. Yeah, visually. It is over here, you are here, I am here, and we are on the same team. Yes. And we're combating this thing. And what that does is it begins to reframe and it helps you understand that you're not under attack. Yes.

You're not under attack. And not only are you not under attack that you have the support of your partner. And so she was able to do that, which is brilliant. But getting feedback is incredibly important, I think. How did you take it? Oh, then I'm open to receiving it. Because you asked, because you asked so you know that you're going to get something back. This is true.

This is true. Okay. This is true. But because some people go, what do you mean? Like, how do you not get defensive? Jill's deliveries are spectacular. Because she also uses the whole crap sandwich delivery too where she'll start positive. She'll add something constructive in the middle.

Then dump the crap. Yeah, that's the crap. The crap's in the middle. Crap is always that goo stuff. And then finish with a... Then you finish with something nice. So it's like the bread, the... The bread is the nice stuff and the crap is in the middle and she packs it in and hands it over.

I know that in a lot of people's relationships, long-time relationships, I have several friends of mine who are married who are like, oh, well, we don't really have sex anymore. And that always slightly worries me because I think, but is it possible for some people to stay in a marriage and not have sex or what's that about? And if there's one person that does want to have sex sometimes, but their partner's really gone off it, like, what do you do about that? Is sex incredibly important? Absolutely. Absolutely.

I'm a believer of that. But some people will just go, it's not. No, no, it is. Because then it's a friendship if you're not having sex. You know what? So there's Robert Sternberg is a researcher. And he created something called the triangular theory. of love, right, in the 1980s, triangular theory of love.

And he says that to have love, you need to have three components. One is intimacy, which is not the physical piece, but the closeness. Two is passion, physical and sexual desire. And three is commitment. If you have intimacy, passion, and commitment, you have the most full definition of love. But if you don't have one of those things. you have some component, like you have some part of love, but you don't have full love. So you think about that.

If you have intimacy and you have commitment, but you don't have passion. Which is a lot of marriages. They have that closeness. They've been together for so long. And that we're going to stay together forever because we're married. And you don't have? Yeah. So what does that mean?

Well, to me, it means your best friends. It's not a relationship. It says it well, it's a friendship relationship, not a partnership, a marriage. So this is interesting. I'm with you, but not with you. Okay, go, go. So I'll tell you where I'm with you. Where I'm with you is, yeah, they're best friends.

So can you be married to your best friend and not? Some people can. Okay. Because there are, remember, there are thousand types of relationships. You know, living apart but being to. together, those relationships are now, one of, like, that's the trend is where you have a partner and your partner sleeps in another room, or you have a partner and they sleep in a different house. Right? And you see each other once a month. And that's your marriage. And you're...

And they work great. And they work great. I've seen that happen sometimes, yeah. So if, if, so that's why I think knowing what you want and ensuring that your partner has those same goals is incredibly important. Now, do most people, people want that? No. Most people want, they want their partner to be their best friend, to do backflips in the bedroom with them, and to be committed to them for life. That's what most of us want. So in that relationship, if you feel like, okay, you're not getting that out of your partner and you want to create more of that, you want to get more of that. The novelty, the therapy, these are incredibly important. But I always say, just like in the argument, I say

it goes back to you, you want to begin to evaluate you. And I'll bring my relationship into this. Right now, my wife and I, being married 23 years, we have more sex now than we did year two of our marriage. And why? Now, I think there's a... How? Not lie.

How? How does that happen? Well, technically, DeVina, you see, what I do is I take my... No. Yes. But, okay, what are some of the key reasons? One key reason, and very few people talk about this when it comes to sex, is that we're healthier. We're literally healthier.

This is incredibly important. When I say healthier is that, like, literally, we work out more consistently. Eat better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have, we sleep. You know, I was talking to. Karen Gurney, who I think is one of the top sex therapists in the world. Oh, Karen Gotti. Yeah, she's amazing.

She's so good. And I asked her, I said, what's the best thing to do if you have a poor sex life? And you know, a lot of people say pop pills, drink this, do that. She said, get a good night's sleep. But think about what she's saying. What she's saying is that when you are rested, when you are less stress, when you feel safe within yourself, you're better able to then express. And sex is part of that expression.

But if you feel under stress, if you feel like you've eaten a terrible diet and you just feel like heavy, if you are sleep deprived, do you want to have sex? Absolutely not, whether you're 25 or you're 55. And so your individual health, your personal health, is incredibly important. And I think that's one of the key reasons why sex begins to deteriorate. Now, there are other reasons, the emotional intimacy, sometimes slips and all these. But our actual health, this is why it's so important for us to take care of this vessel that we have. Incredibly important.

It sounds like you and your wife talk a lot, you know. And I, it always makes me laugh this idea of a couple being married for such a long time. And then, you know, sometimes people say to me, like, it's got to the point where he'll go fancy a shag tonight. You know, like, it's literally that kind of, that's foreplay. And then, but actually if they said having a drink or something on a sofa, I'm trying to picture kind of how that could sound better. It would be like, if I was to take you to bed tonight, what would you like me to do to you? or what would you like to do together? And you go, what are you talking about?

You go, I'm just asking. And then you start talking about it. And then bang, like you're already in the mood. Yes. So you know what the issue here is? And this is something that guys, fellas, we have to stop this. Or I'm sorry, we have to appreciate this, is that we are all turned on.

And when I say turned on is there's what's called spontaneity, spontaneous sex. And then there's others who it takes us longer to, let I say, warm up to sex. Well, I think that's men and women, isn't it? It's like, yeah. Men and women, so there's a big gender difference and then also in terms of age. So fellas, if you have a wife and she's in her 40s or 50s or 60s, you coming home and saying, let's get it on right now, it's not going down the way that you want it. So that's one thing is that we have to appreciate that.

The other thing is that we have to step outside of the script. Now, there is a standard script that happens in heterosexual sex, and that is oral sex. The wife delivers oral sex to the husband or to the male partner. Then there's vaginal sex that happens as long as the husband is able, once he ejaculates, then that's it. It's a wrap. This is the standard script to sex.

And what happens is you could imagine if that is what you're used to and you are a woman who doesn't climax as a result of that, there's no orgasm as a result of that, and we know that there's a massive orgasm gap. You know that after that has happened time and time and time again. You're not going to want to do it. You don't want it.

Definitely you don't want that. You definitely don't want that. You'd rather secretly go upstairs, find your toy, make yourself happy. Good night. Good night. You much rather than do it. You know, men, we have to understand this is happening. It's not about us. It is about we in this. And so that's also part of it. Part of it is tapping in. And what I would recommend is on the script, by the way, is it was Karen Gurney's book, Mind the Gap. My wife and I were reading it together. Talking about it together. It's like when you do,

these things together, it opens up the opportunity to talk and discuss. Right. So absolutely, incredibly important. The other thing I'd like to say to, I mean, I guess in same-sex marriages for women, I guess it would be the same thing. But I would think intrinsically a woman would understand a woman and a woman's needs. But is that sometimes for women, foreplay is literally like cooking a meal together in the evening. You get home.

or asking how the day was saying, would you like a glass of wine or shall I make you a cup of tea? That is foreplay. Because if you've had an evening where you've not communicated at all, you get into bed and you go, right, let's... Even if you're not saying,

like, fancy shagg, but the hand goes on the back, you think, I know what this means. I know, I see that play out. Yes. So many times that actually the whole evening is foreplay. If you think that you want sex, like, warm us up, you know. It's like a, that's so important. What I say is that for play begins the moment that sex has ended. That's really where it begins. You are so right.

For the next time, right? For the next time. Absolutely. This is, this is it. This is it. Oh my God, that is so good. That's, that's, that's where it begins. Oh, that's actually made me feel amazing. I just think that is actually it. How nice would that be for so many women if suddenly like the guys were behaving? Even if it was coming in two or three days time, it's like, I'm going to start right now. Yes. And then also the guys need to understand that there's benefits for us too. Oh my God. There are many. It is endless benefits, you know. For everyone. For everyone. Why wouldn't you? Why would you not want to win? And this is why, and then you think about that, then that aspect of your life becomes so much better.

Yeah. Then what happens? It's like a tide. Yeah. It, everything rises. Oh, thank you. It's good. I feel like you are in such a great place right now in your life.

Please, can you just, you're launching your podcast. Yes. It will be launched by the time this goes out. So let's just say you've got your podcast. Please can you just quickly tell everybody about it? Absolutely. You know what so wild is. My set is just right.

It's like we're in a family. We're part of the family. We're related. We're related. We can throw a rock right, right, right, right to myself. But, you know, I am incredibly excited. I'm overwhelmed in my excitement around our podcast family. And my podcast is called We Need to Talk.

And I'm doing this in essence and focusing around relationships. So those couples, for example, they could watch. and they can watch together and dialogue and discuss. I love this idea of couples sitting down to watch. So we need to talk. Yes. Also, find love. Find love.

To help people navigate what is quite a tricky world of dating. Absolutely. This book was about 10 years in the works, I'd say. Yeah. It is specifically for people who are searching for love, whether they are already in a relationship, or not yet in a relationship. I've just had the best time with you.

This was good. Like, I love you. I love you too. Yeah, thank you so much for doing what you do. I appreciate it. And I thank you for doing what you do. You are loved and adored. Ditto.

And I think it's something that I hear the word national treasure. This is something I didn't hear until I came to the UK, national treasure. And I had this whole conversation with someone. I was like, what does it mean? What is it? What is it? And you know what they said? They said, you know, it's someone like Davina McCall.

That is so funny. Yeah, isn't that? That is so weird. Isn't that something? Give me your hands. I love you. Love you too. Thank you.

Wow. Who doesn't love Paul Johnson? I mean, what an amazing man. Such brilliant energy. Clearly practicing what he preaches has a brilliant relationship with his wife, Jill. And I love the way that he's able to kind of share their experience to help all of us kind of have and navigate a better relationship. I think my takeaways are that. If you are already in a relationship and you're not happy and you're really struggling,

and your partner's kind of not prepared to make that effort to make those changes, which I love the way he said, watch something together, listen to something together. You don't necessarily have to go and pay loads and loads of money to go and get therapy, even just coming together to learn something that might help your relationship would be good. If you're not prepared to do that, you've got to ask the question, am I in the right relationship? He was saying, you know, don't stay in something unhappy. And I thought that was such a clear and strong message.

I was amazed by the 80-20 thing. 20% of people are satisfied in their relationship and 80% are unsatisfied. And if you're unsatisfied and you think you can do something about it, do it. Also talked about splitting up and dating in your 40s and 50s and like, what's that like and how hard is it? And people, men having this, I want to date someone half my age plus seven and women. saying they want to meet someone a bit older, but he did say that things are changing in that area. And I did love when he said about meeting someone new.

I mean, we covered so many topics. Paul, thank you because you've given us some great guidance. Let's talk about the sponsors of this podcast. Zoe membership, a personalised nutrition program. I always get asked why I look after my body. And the answer, I want to look good naked. Joke. Don't worry.

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