Begin Again with Davina McCall - Relationship Expert: Why Independence Is Killing Your Intimacy & Can Men & Women Be "Just Friends"?

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Why Do Relationships Really Fall Apart? In this episode of Begin Again, couples therapist and Netflix’s Blue Therapy relationship expert Karen Doherty opens up about what really causes couples to drift apart, lose intimacy, and stop feeling connected. With over 25 years of experience working with couples, Karen explains why so many relationships do not end because of one dramatic event, but because of a slow, quiet disconnect that grows over time. Karen explores the hidden patterns that can damage a relationship: unresolved triggers, contempt, poor timing, emotional shutdown, infidelity, loss of trust, and the everyday resentments that slowly wear away at love. She explains why couples often fight about the surface issue, like the dishwasher, sex, money, or tone of voice, when the real problem is usually feeling unseen, rejected, criticised, or misunderstood. This conversation also dives deep into intimacy, and why it is about far more than sex. Karen breaks down the different forms of intimacy, from emotional and physical closeness to humour, curiosity, micro-connections, and the small daily gestures that help couples feel chosen again. She also shares why scheduled intimacy, honest conversations, and understanding each other’s triggers can be powerful tools for rebuilding connection. At its core, this is a conversation about love, repair, and what it really takes to keep a relationship alive. Whether you are in crisis, quietly drifting, rebuilding trust, or simply trying to understand your partner better, Karen offers a hopeful and practical reminder: relationships need care, attention, and intention but there is almost always a way back to connection. Sometimes, the choice to begin again is the clearest sign that love is still there. 🌟 Follow for more honest conversations about identity, growth, and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod Follow Karen: https://www.instagram.com/karendohertycoaching/ ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for all your behind the scenes access, recommendations and much much more at: https://linkly.link/2g2xm (00:00) Intro (01:03) Karen's Background: 25 years of couples Therapy (02:07) The biggest problem facing couples (04:55) Working with couples and Beginning the process (07:17) Is hope for couples in crisis? Couples who come to therapy to break up (08:56) "independence vs autonomy" (12:16) 4 essential components of love (13:40) Contempt in relationships, and managing couples who are breaking up (17:50) the different forms of intimacy, and the importance of "micro-connections" (22:16) 5 love languages and managing each other's differences (24:49) The external pressures Facing Your relationship (27:04) Saily Ad (28:00) Shopify Ad (29:02) Different types of triggers in relationships (34:29) Why You Should Be scheuduling intimacy (36:57) Managing differing sex drives, and negotiating "couple deals"(40:21) Understanding each other's triggers (45:07) Karen's rules for arguments (47:19) infidelity and can male/female friendships work (53:24) Karen answers questions from viewers about relationships Sponsored by: Saily - Download from the app store and use code DAVINA at the checkout for 15% off Shopify - https://www.shopify.com/uk for £1 a month trial Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You know, saying, it's just fancy a shag tonight. Scheduling it, sex is so unromantic. Now, now, now, tell me off. I love it. I love scheduled intimacy. Oh, really? I'll tell you why. You have been an expert in your field for 25 years. You actually love each other.

At the end of this conversation, you sort of find out, are you going to stay together or what's going to happen next? It's a slow creep. There's a bickering or an argument, then that awful sort of no-man's land where two people, they don't necessarily connect enough to maintain a meaningful, really. But those escalations wear away at the patience of the couple.

How do you know if there is hope? There's always hope, okay? Let's talk about what's important to a healthy relationship. The first thing is most couples have got about five triggers. Can you name me some triggers? I didn't realise that. Of course it is. I mean, I can't get through to the end of this without mentioning infidelity and trust.

And also, what's the most important thing in a relationship, friendship, sex or something else? How do you know who the right person is for you? for you. I mean, Karen, I think I actually quite like to start the interview by talking to you about this weird thing that happens when you have been an expert in your field for 25 years, you know, quietly working away very privately because obviously relationship experts, even if you see your clients kind of out, you can't like talk to them about it because

it's a private thing and they don't want everybody to know. So you have been literally so secretive and now you're famous. Is that weird? It is a bit weird. It started a bit before Blue Therapy. It started with the neurodivergence and my sort of expertise in those relationships. And that started me getting out on, you know, sort of my face was out there and people were asking me about it. And then Blue Therapy, that's how they found me, I think.

And then Blue Therapy came along. And yes, it is a bit odd now. So it's been an adventure. Let's put it that way. I was just wondering, would it be all right if you just subscribed? Thanks. And have you enjoyed the journey with Blue Therapy? Oh, it's been such fun.

Yeah. Such fun. It would all happen so quickly. Yeah, I mean, like, it's a brilliant idea because it's, well, you never get an insight into people's couples therapy. It's something that couples don't want to talk about, or they don't really want to share, or they don't really want to admit that they're going. Yeah. But to watch people unpick something and people will be able to relate to every single

episode. There'll be something in there that you'll go, oh, I do that. Like, oh, no, okay. That's exactly learned. It's learning new things, isn't it? That's exactly what the hope was of the whole show was the themes were to be universal and they were. You know, I see these themes in my office all the time.

What would you say is the most prevalent theme that you, you see? Disconnect. People have just become disconnected for all sorts of reasons. And these days, that's really prevalent. You know, we yearn for intimacy. And yet, and it's a hyper-connected world, and yet it isn't. Everyone's so disconnected. The challenge is being present with each other. And lots of couples are having trouble with that. What does disconnection look like? it can look like it's a slow creep it's not something dramatic that just comes in it's a it's a slow creep first of all maybe there's a bickering or an argument then perhaps that tails off a bit as

people can't be bothered is that even worse that's even worse when they can't be bothered we've stopped bickering oh we're fine now actually not yeah it's worse it's worse yeah you've lost the curiosity about each other and why that might be happening. Then there's the space that opens up between two people, that awful sort of no man's land where two people start to live their parallel lives and they don't necessarily connect enough to maintain a meaningful relationship. And then there's just disinterest, complete disinterest and it drifts.

the slow creepers now moved into a drifting apart. And then, of course, there's all sorts of things that can come into that space, isn't there? There's, you know, thirds can come in, all sorts of things. But people are so busy these days. They're so, they're so preoccupied. I mean, I can tell you, all day, every day, I hear, oh, do you know what, Karen, we didn't do that. Why not? Why haven't you done the homework?

I didn't have time. So what sort of homework are you talking about? like you, so if you talk to a couple and they come to you and they say we're so disconnected, we're not even, we've gone through bickering, we've gone through kind of just living separate lives and there's nothing. What kind of things could help a couple come back together? That's a tough call, but you've got to start finding, you've got to start finding out what it was that they originally had together. Go back to the beginning and you sometimes, I sometimes managed to get a smile as they remember that.

Come on, what was it? Did you, you know, what did you, what was, what was it about her that you fell for? And that often brings a smile and then the sort of feelings might soften a little bit. And you can start the conversation there. And there'll be a gentle sort of exploration of how the disconnect has grown and how it's become so, yeah, just how it's grown and how it's just become so, so. unbridgeable. And from there, you start the conversations around actually what's going to happen next. Are you going to stay together or what do you think is going to happen next?

So you ask the couple if they're going to stay together. Yeah, what's your intention for being here? Why are you here? And have you ever had a couple say, one say, I want to stay together and the other one say I'm checked out? Yes. Yes. You do get that. And then you have to respect that.

have to respect how people present. I work quite short term. I'm very much concerned these days. We're thinking about how do couples often come in in crisis. How do we manage this crisis? Either there is a silence and they're completely disconnected or they're screaming at each other and we have to stop that. We have to calm the crisis down, whichever way.

And so that first session is a really big session. You sort of dig, dig, dig and find out, and I've got lots of experience now. So you can sort of tell what might be. Well, by the end of it, I know how I'm going to work with them. By the end of the first session. By the end of the session, you know how you're going to work with something. Well, I've done it for a very long time.

Of course, 25 years. And only couples. Only couples. Just do that all the time. So it's my passion. I'm very, very connected into couples. How quickly can you see if you think that there is hope? there's always hope.

That's nice. Always. Okay, I don't go into this without hope. There's always hope. You know, you always go in and think, well, they're here. Yes. They're actually here. They've presented.

So there's got to be something. It's very rare, actually, that people do come and they've completely thrown, you know, completely lost any hope of reconnecting. It's quite rare. I've known couples, which I thought was a really good idea, go to. couples therapy to spit up. Yes, they can. And that's, you know, the conscious uncoupling.

Absolutely. It's quite a kind of good way of doing it because that's when the real mud starts getting slung all over the place and you think, oh God, what's happened? And such a healthy way of doing it. Such a healthy way. Such a healthy way. But the problem is there's always one who wants to leave

and the other one who probably doesn't want to leave. You've got to get them both to the same place in order for that to be as. positive as it could be or should be. Yes. Because somebody's always hurt. Somebody's hurt and maybe still having hope. So that's a very specific piece of work there.

Going to a therapist say, look, we want to split up. Can you help us? And that happens in my room after people have explored. Yes, so they've kind of looked at every possible eventuality. And they've done the work. They've decided, actually, this has gone a bit too far. and we can't come back. What are the values that people should be looking at

to create a healthy relationship? What's important to a healthy relationship? I've got Karen Doherty on the podcast today and I want to find out a little bit about how relationships are going for you. Give me the top five must do. Oh, okay, three. The first one I have is like actually laughed at and being, and having fun. The second one is, I love dinner at the table with candles pretty much every night.

And we have a baby as well. So it's having that time, just the two of us having candle at dinner. Things to look forward to. Things to look forward to is great. It's that dance, isn't it? It's that interdependence versus autonomy, which is a really tough call these days. Because we live in a world where autonomy is absolutely lauded. as how we should be, how we should behave.

God forbid that we're dependent. Self-sufficiency. Yes, God forbid that we're actually dependent or interdependent on anybody. And that's not conducive to really healthy relationships within which you can show vulnerabilities, that relationship that you come home to that is actually a resting place.

Safe place. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a difficulty. You know, this hyperconnected, there's so much choice out there. There are so many different,

different avenues to pursue that it's hard for people to stay on track. It's much easier to look out than it is to look in sometimes. It was interesting. I was thinking, obviously, I've been around for quite a long time. And I was thinking when I first started dating when I was very young, you know, there was no Facebook. No. There was no social media. And I think about the web, you know, the websites like Friends were united. and you can go and look up the person that you fancied from high school

like disaster waiting to happen isn't it? Yes. Anybody can get access to anybody they've ever fancied. Yes. Yes. Go find them. Go find them. Go haunt them.

Go stalk them. There's all sorts of downsides to that, isn't there? All sorts of downsides. It's really difficult, I think, for people to know how to know where to go, how to meet people. rather than there's such a lot of disillusionment around the apps. Although my client base is normally 35 upwards. Okay, so we can go 35 to whatever.

Actually, I've just had a couple in their 70s. Have you? Yes. So cool. So cool. So cool. And wait, I'm assuming they've been together for a very... 50 years.

Oh, can I just say that is such an important message? Yes. It's never too late to work on your relationship. Not at all. Not at all. And the work is fabulous. It's absolutely fabulous. They're really interesting and I'm really interested in them and they want to find a way to deal with their differences that have become a challenge and I'm more than happy to be in there, you know, digging around and seeing how I can help. No, it's really, really good. Because I think my dad, who's up there top shelf. Yes. He's said to me once and I've held up.

onto this. He felt that love needed four things to survive. I love a list. Right. So the first is friendship. Yes. You have to like the person. You do have to like them, yes. No, sometimes you can fancy the fuck out of somebody, but you don't like them very much. Like in the sack,

it's like electric, but they're not a very nice person. They're not exactly that, yeah. Yes. So friendship. Yes. Carnal love. I think I'd probably now change that and I'd like to talk to you about this to intimacy. Ah, yes. So I think for some people, carnal love isn't a necessity but they have to feel intimate with their partner or they can make do with carnal love without the intimacy. Oh well I want to unpick that in a minute.

You can pick that up in a minute, yes. And then trust. Yes. And respect. Respect is key. That's what you see. That's when people, you know that you've got a problem in the room if there's little or no respect and hopefully not contempt. That's, yeah, that's key.

I mean, is contempt the thing that comes after loss of respect? It's like you don't give a hoot about that person. You've really lost the patience. What does contempt look like? How do you know? It's so mean. It's so it's mean and it's calculated and it's hurtful and it's defensive. Very defensive.

It's like eye rolling. Eye rolling and sort of those sarcastic comments that are just dropped. They're very hard to be around. We've all been around couples that are in that phase and it's really hard to be around. It's not nice actually. I've actually said to people sometimes like, can you stop it? Well, I've said like either go talk to somebody or split up. Yes.

Like this isn't good for either of you. No. You're both lovely people. Yes. And it's not working. And it's not working. So if you're not going to go to relationship counseling, then you've really got to. And that's really when couples have just, they've missed each other.

They've just missed each other. They can't, they cannot align. They cannot align for whatever reason that potential to align has got lost in the mix. And so they're desperate really. And if they've lost that potential and so they've tried couples counseling, then honestly the best thing to do with. would be to spit up? Or is that very hard for you as a relationship counsellor to say?

Because you're like, I want to make it work. I don't want to make it work. I think what I'm, I think, I think what I'm going to hold up with that. I love you. This is really, you're so lovely. This is so nice. So I was like, I've really presented her with a conundrum here. Okay, okay.

No, I love it. What I want, what I, what, before that happens, what I really, want them to know is why they're splitting up. Yes, okay. Okay? They really need to know that. They've got to understand. They've got to understand that. It's not enough just to be spiteful to each other or to have, to not be able to

that's not enough. What's happened would be to love someone split up with them and then regret it? Yes. Can you imagine? And they've moved on. They've been, they've been forced to move on and they have. And the other one is still, well, how did that happen? Yeah.

It does happen. We know that. We know that. know that sometimes phases in life, one person is with somebody and they can't stay with them and so they have to move on. And yet later on in their lives, they might think, I wish I could have stayed or I wish that had turned out differently. Friends reunited. We're not advertising that, no, we're not advocating for people to get onto that. No. Oh, the horror stories. Yeah. Although just recently somebody had just, they weren't in my room, but I heard of somebody actually reconnecting after years, they've got married. So we can't knock it. We can't knock it.

No. I mean, I think that that feeling of regret from realizing that you've made a mistake is the reason why people will consistently try and make something that did work, work again. Because you think I don't want to ever regret leaving what happens. Yes. And also it's worth the work. It's hard to leave children homes. And we've been through a time of plenty where divorce. was a choice. I'm seeing less and less of that.

That's interesting. Yeah, I am definitely seeing less and less of that. It's not so easy to unravel stuff. It's not so easy to, it's not so easy to disassemble homes. Yes. It's even less easy for two people to go and get new homes. Yes. It's very disruptive.

You hear of people that are very unhappy that can't afford to get divorced. Oh, and that's really. That's a terrible thing, right? It's absolutely awful when. two people have to inhabit that space. That's when you really have to work with people to be able to get them to be able to at least accept each other or find a place of acceptance around the circumstance, best for the kids, best for them.

You've really got to work at that because that's silent treatment or viciousness or separate lives in the same houses. It's brutal for everyone. Especially for the kids. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Can we go back to intimacy?

Yes. I'm fascinated by this because I've always been a bit of a, I've been pulled up on this podcast about it by our viewers. Oh, go on. Because I've said that sex is a very important part of a relationship. And that, you know, you need to maintain a healthy sex life in order to stay close. And people have quite rightly said, and I've, I've, slightly change my tune on it.

Yes. That it's not just about the physical act of sex. It's been about, it's about closeness. It's about feeling, loved, seen, touched. There's so many different types of intimacy. Please could you talk me through some of the different types of intimacy and how if you feel you need more, like what can you do? Well, so intimacy, just off the top of my head.

So psychological, intellectual, energetic, emotional, physical, sexual, erotic, erotic, humour, have I missed any? Can you think of any? No, I mean, like you just named five more than I thought about at all. Like I always thought the intimacy was like sex and erotic and something else but like not all of those things.

I didn't think of laughing as intimate. Of course it is, yes. But that's so funny. I've never, you've blown my mind. Being able to laugh at each other. Yeah, very much. And with each other, it's such a, you're so close to someone. When you've got that sort of humorous short hand as well, it just makes everything lighter.

And, you know, in times of trial and tribulation, that really helps. Even in the room, I love it when people have a sense of humour because we do laugh. You've got to laugh. I didn't realise that was intimacy, but now you say that. Yes. It's a huge part of intimacy. And all of these threads, they all weave together and they're all different in every, different. In every couple that I meet, they're different. Okay? They weave together and make different

patterns. And it's keeping that alive. It's keeping that, or it's even rekindling that because that's... And can you? Yes. It's about intention. It's about intention. It's about intention. What do you mean by that? It's intentional micro-connections. You know, actually, one couple's told me last, a couple of weeks ago, they've got a little love book, so they write little messages to each other because they don't see each other, they're in and out, and they've got a little love book. Wait, that's such a nice idea. You're just little message. So you're passing ships in the night?

Passing ships the night. But I have the love book and I see. And you, like, I wonder if there's like a thing where you can signal that you've written in it so you know to open. You know to open it. Yeah. They had it next to their bed and so they would pick it up and if she was out early in the morning, she'd leave something and he'd pick it. It was really sweet.

So that's, those little, they're called, I call them, I call them micro-connections. Pardon me? Where you actually intentionally try to meet your partner. So, you know, walking past the garden next door, pinch a flower, take it in. Here we go. Bag of sweets on the pillar.

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and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Those types of thoughtful little things. It's a little. Even a meme, even a meme during the day, just saying, oh, God, this is awful. I'm having a terrible day.

Oh, hope you're having a good, whatever. I'm thinking of you. I'm thinking of you. Just, it's having the other in mind. Because basically, that's what's lost. In this world, that's what's lost. And also over time, yes.

If you've been with somebody for decades, just take it for granted. It's right. You just take it for granted. But those little things mean a lot. And then I think if somebody does that for you, oh, you want to do it back. because it just feeds that sort of, it just feeds that.

It's oxytocin, isn't it? Yes, it gets those hormones going, those love hormones, you just start to feel. Wow, that's really nice. That's really nice that they've done that. I'm going to do something back. It's a reciprocal flow. And that's what intimacy needs to be. It needs to be reciprocal.

You need to be able to have that flow. It's going to ebb, but there's a flow. Did you ever read the Five Love Languages? Yes. Oh, people bring it in all the time. Yeah, I thought that was quite interesting. Yes. Because I'd never really thought of that before.

That whole concept of people being different. That's really what a lot of my work is around is navigating the difference. People start fighting. There's nothing really wrong. They've just different. Maybe they've got, maybe they're being, maybe they're emotionally dysregulated. And so they've, they've escalated. The twist has taken them.

can't, you know, and the other one is thinking, what's going on here? What's going on? And they don't, they don't understand what's going on. They don't understand what's going on. This is particularly relevant with the neurodivergent work that I do. But it's with every work. It's with everybody. It's understanding the difference. And we, we sort of assume, or people have done up until now, that if you're with somebody, then you're the same. Okay. There's an assumption that, oh yeah, well, you know, we're with somebody, so we're the same, without it being navigated. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, never ceases to amaze me, that couples still think that, well, we're aligned, we're the same. Actually, they're completely different. And there's a real sort of, you know, there's a really

excitable nervous system with a very calm nervous system. Or there is, the difference is just there all the time, different executive functions, different, different abilities to communicate. That's being able to, so it's, it's being able to start tasks, finish tasks, follow yourself around and tidy up after yourself. Short-term memory sometimes is affected with executive function. So, you know, I've just told you that. No, you didn't. I just told you that.

So we have to quite a lot of work around, you know, that difference is between people because they cause, they're one of the major causes for the disconnect. Because they're not navigated. And it's nothing to do with your mother or your father. It's to do with actually two people trying to navigate their difference. And I think if you know about the difference, That's the first step, right?

Yes, yes, exactly that. Becoming aware of it and respecting it. Respecting it, you know, we all have slightly different capacities to tolerate things. And just because we're a couple doesn't mean that we have the same. And that needs to be understood by both. You know, if somebody's social battery just can't take what the other one can, the other one thrives, the other one can't, that's got to be negotiated. It's got to be navigated. otherwise people are going to feel rejected or abandoned or disliked

nothing to do with any of that I mean I loved what you said about intention earlier and I think you can see knowing someone's intention towards you is everything yes this is something we have to sort out so often in the room these these narratives these scripts that people attach to the other one part of the couple will attack to the other, oh, he won't like that, or she doesn't, she, she, she doesn't appreciate that.

How do you know? These are assumptions. Where's the actual communication? And is that because they can't see in here? They're not, they're not connecting in a, in a, in an unfiltered way. There's too much going on. And we've got to understand that couples are really facing a lot at the moment. There's a lot going on for couples. How, what do you mean? Well, cost of living is terrible, you know, people are struggling. There's no safety nets. Come on. There's no safety nets. They used to be a national health. They used to be

really sound education system. They used to be dentists. They used to be all sorts of safety nets. And that's not the case. Plus people have ended up living away from their nearest and dearest, so there's less help available. I mean, these are

you know, these are real problems that I see in couples over 40. You know, those relentless years. Those, when the kids are still around, the teen, that's when. And you're looking after your parents. And then you've got this. Yes.

And your menopausal or manopausal. Together. Together. All of that. I mean, those relentless years are brutal. And it's no surprise that, you know, working therapists will tell you between 16 and 22 years. That's when they're coming in.

That's when the couples are coming in because it's too much. It's too much. And sometimes that's what they need. They just need somewhere safe to be. Somewhere safe to consider what's going on for them. And when you say somewhere safe, it's somewhere where you can voice how you really feel without the fire happening that normally happens when you're at home and you broach it. Do you know what an e-sim is? Be honest. It does the same job as a physical sim, but it's been. built into your phone digitally. And Saley, whose sponsors begin again,

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Go to shopify.com.uk. If you want to, you can sign up for £1 per month trial and you could actually start selling right away. I mean, if someone's watching and they can't afford to go and see a relationship counsellor, Yes. How can you as a couple sit at home and take the fire out of something that is normally full of angst and anger? So the first thing is to understand the triggers. Yes, so let's talk about triggers because triggers are important. Everybody's, what you say, five, you say everybody's got about five or something? About five. Yeah. About five triggers. So, you know, most couples have got about five triggers.

So identifying those is critical. So what is a trigger? So it is something that is said or done that actually pierces the other in such a way that they can become hurt, they can feel rejected, they can feel criticized. And it could be something old from your childhood, something where it could be anything. Anger's one of mine. If someone's angry at me. You don't like it? I want to cower in a corner.

Oh, okay. So that's a, yeah. So what do you do with that? I've got better with it. Yes. I've trained myself out of it to under, but that's when I can see the intention that somebody had, that they love me, but they're angry.

I can, they're not angry potentially with me. Exactly. Exactly. So you've trained yourself to that. You've trained yourself to that part. But it used to make me close down. You'd bunker. You'd bunker away.

You'd just bunker down and that's it, not speaking, not you just withdraw. Yes. understanding these triggers, understanding that something has pierced the other. Let's call it pierced. Some people talk about... That's a good description. Yeah, it's pierced the other in some way, okay? And they're going to react.

And so they react defensively or they blame or they escalate. And that's what starts. That's what starts the whole cycle, the vicious cycle of, oh, here we go, because obviously Oh, this always happens. You overreact. You overreact. The other has no idea, actually, you're overreacting again. And that's it.

The escalation starts, the twister starts taking them both up and spits them both out. Yeah, that's another good description of twister. Like I can just imagine. In you come. You're going over that way. You're going over that way. Out. Go on.

And then they flee. So that sort of escalation is really, it's really common, isn't it? Can you name me some triggers? tone of voice, timing, people don't understand how critical timing is. I can't tell you how...

What do you mean? I can't tell you. So very often it's a night out. Okay, so one part of the couple thinks, great, I can bring this all up now, we can talk about this, you know, tricky subjects because we're going to be out and it'll be nice.

And the other partner is up for a night out. Okay, the last thing they want to hear about is holiday plans, kids, anything, anything. They just want fun. And that's guaranteed to put a real downer on the night. Timing. Or if somebody's just come in after work and actually needs time to transition, you know, that sort of commute home, exhausted, they need time to transition.

Take 10 minutes. Just don't jump on them as they come in the door because they actually can't transition that quickly. So timing is a big one. I think that is a really interesting one. Transitions are very difficult for some. They're not, they don't adapt easily. They might be sort of hyper-anxious or kept themselves in a hyper-vigilant state all day because they've been at work or had to deal with stuff.

And then they're still feeling that way as they walk through the front door. And it's not even sometimes I think just the people are going, I've been with the kids all day Could you help me? Yeah. It's not even that. Even if somebody bounds up to somebody at the door

Yes. And once to have sex with them, it's like, No. Just give me 15 minutes. I can't do it. Then you're rejected. Yes.

Then you're rejected. And then it starts. Well, of course he doesn't, she doesn't love me. What's happened? Now I'm rejected and off you go withdrawing. And that's, that happens so often.

So often. Just give me 15 minutes. I'd love to be like that. Yes. Can I just need. I can't tell you how many couples, you know, one might start something in the kitchen and the other one is just not ready, just not ready. And so they stop trying, they stop approaching, they stop initiating, they stop going in for the hug.

Because actually they haven't quite understood that the other needs time to transition and be ready for that. It's a positioning that somebody needs. They're not that adaptable or open. Do you know Paul Brunson? Yes. Obviously. He came and did a chat on here and he said something that was so brilliant. And he said, for play starts the minute you stop having sex.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, really? Of course it does. Like that makes complete sense. And all these things that you were talking about earlier about those little shows of intimacy. Yes. Those are the kind of things. That's foreplay.

Yeah. Of course it is. You know, that's like saying, I love you. you and I, rather than 10 minutes before you want to have sex, you know, saying, fancy a shag tonight, like scheduling it in so unromantic. Now, now. Yes, no. Go, sorry.

Sorry, I'm a great believer. No, don't. I'm a great believer in scheduling. Don't, don't ever, like, worry about telling me off. Tell me off. I love it. So scheduling is good. I love scheduled intimacy.

Oh, really? I love it. Tell me what. I'll tell you why. Yeah, yes. When I say this in the room, one goes, what are you talking about? What about all that spontaneity? And my first answer is, great, when did you last have sex?

Yes. How's that working for you? How's that working for you? Yes. And there's always that silent. Actually, it might have a point. But I'm a great believer in scheduling intimacy. Intimacy.

It doesn't have to be sex. You can't just say, oh, we're going to have sex that night. I ask you to describe what intimacy looks like. Like, what could that be? Instead of going to bed, one with the phone, one with the eye. iPad, headphones on. Instead of that, why wouldn't you say, right, every couple of weeks, do you know what, we're going to put some candles on, we're going to go upstairs, just we'll leave the kids, whatever, and we'll just hang out. Let's just hang out. Let's just chat.

Let's just be upstairs. Maybe get into something comfortable. Doesn't mean that we have to have sex. That's not, the idea is that we are creating an intimate atmosphere. The idea is that you and I are going to actually just hang out in a nice, in a nice environment, a comfortable environment. We haven't got our day clothes on or our shoes. We're just being comfortable. Put, you know, put a nice silky thing on or whatever. What's wrong with that? So I have become a bit of a demon about scheduled intimacy. But I love this idea of a couple going upstairs, getting into comfy clothing. I'm imagining people sitting cross-legged opposite each other on the bed. Sometimes you have to get, yeah, talking or if they find that hard, sometimes, you know the School of Life and the card games with all those, get you

talking. Yeah, we'll get you talking. So if people are having difficulty, just starting. Great recommendation. Fantastic. Really fantastic. So if they're there and they can just have a, have a card, if they're finding it difficult, or this feels a bit weird. I don't, you know, I don't, well, okay, have a read of this. Let's have a, let's have a go with this. Let's try something. But it's getting, it's intentional, intentional connection, which is what makes, oh, no, not what makes. It's what keeps a couple going. What about So if one wants to have sex And the other doesn't

How can you bridge the gap Oh it's so funny I never forget this Way back, way back There was a couple in Canary Wharf And he was so He was so down to earth about this He said, do you know what

If I get three out of ten hits I'm doing well I don't mind stayed with me for years and I have to say this to couples you know it's not always going to be the right moment it's not always going to be and yes you may have different appetites

but you've got to talk about that yes they have to talk about that that's got to be managed don't let it manage the couple the couple need to manage that I don't know everybody has their own deals you know I'm a great believer in couple deals I'm always I'm always negotiating couple deals

so all the old Models are gone, aren't they? You don't have to get married. You don't have to, you don't have to, you don't have to, the old breadwinner might be either one of you. There's polyamory groups of people. There's, what is infidelity in any couple because it changes on blue therapy. I had two types of infidelity, three types of infidelity. So I like, I like to think that I like when I'm working with couples. Right. Okay, new year. Out I send my list of, come on, let's have a think about it. What worked for you individually? what didn't work for you individually, what works for your couple, what didn't work, and actually now bring it all together, so we have a session, bring it all together. Now, what are the, what's going on? What are the new rules for the next year? What do you want to achieve? What don't you want to achieve?

What didn't work? It's a sort of a negotiated, a negotiated an agreement, okay? What is infidelity, younger couples these days? What's infidelity for you? Changes with every couple. Every couple. It might change throughout a relationship. Precisely.

My point, which is why these couple deals are so, I find them a really good, a good piece of work to do with couples because then they can come back six months later or a year later and actually think about it. Do you know what? Menopause. Yeah. Not in great space.

Don't feel, you know, I'm not like I was. I'm not like I was. So we've got to work around that. We might need to change things up a bit. Okay, guys. I need you in my Begin Again gang. Listen, it's the most funnest, most awesome club in the whole world. And I want you to be part of it.

So when you sign up to our newsletter, you get all the bits that I don't share anywhere else. Things that I'm loving, what I'm reading, my favourite outfits, some of the most gorgeous Begin Again stories that you've sent in. I actually really love reading those. one of my favourite parts of the week. And the really fun bit is I will also share some begin again secrets, like what guests we've got coming up, and you'll know before anyone else does. Shh, don't tell everyone.

So come and join the best gang ever. The links right below, and it just takes five seconds, and it's free. What other kind of triggers can people go through? Because you said, like people often have five. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets. Yes? Good. This is for you.

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Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. You know, like old past like hang-ups that they carry through. I mean, after abuse or something like that. Yes, but they're not sort of the day-to-day triggers. They're sort of more deeply embedded. And they live, they live. there all the time, they need work. The triggers that I'm talking about are the sort of ones

that get, you know, stupid triggers, like leaving the dishwasher, for example. How many times have people mentioned the dishwasher? Oh, really? Oh my God, how many times I do the dishwasher and then he or she comes and changes the dishwasher and off they go in the kitchen? Why do you have to do that? Why can't you just leave it? I mean, it's a trigger. Because there's a need for order. There's a need for order in one mind that is not the same as the order. order in another mind. Let it go. But people can't.

They get triggered. But I was just going to say, like, you know, have you had people going, well, that's easy for you to say, but it drives me fucking mad? Yeah. How can you get out of that? Well, then we have to talk about where's your capacity to tolerate? Come on, let's have a think about. How do you make this environment, this couple environment, more able to tolerate both of you?

Come on, we've all got quirks. We're all different. we've all got these little bits and pieces. How do we get to acceptance of those without them being triggers, without them, you know, understanding actually, you know, I'm not going to say that now because it's just come in. I will give him 10, give him, you know. Or it's that time of the month. So I know that she's not feeling very well. And I won't mention that today.

I'll do it later. Maybe I'll go and get a bunch of flowers. Something. Just having an awareness of each other's triggers actually de-escalates so often what. could have become something ridiculous. And the point is those escalations within a couple, they are, they're exhausting. Yes. And they wear away at the very, they wear away at the patience of the couple.

They wear away at the tolerance. And then you've got this again, that's when the couple just starts to move away from each other because they can't be bothered. But if there is an intention to sort of find out actually what can I do not to trigger? Let's think about that. I mean, I have people sort of, if they've had a bicker, if they've had a bicker, you know, separate. And then the next day, can we have a process conversation? Yes.

Can you tell me, please, exactly what it was that triggered you. Okay, yes. Because I don't want to do that again. Oh, wow. So, yes. That's so nice because that's saying, I know I triggered you. I don't want to do that again. I don't want to do it.

Yeah, please just tell me. That's such a nice way of coming about it rather than go, you triggered me. No, no, no, no. I did it. Oh, yeah, that's great. Please, please. What was it? Just tell me.

I don't want that to happen to us. And if I know, then maybe I can avoid it. And that really works. And also, I think, if somebody said that to me, I'd be so appreciative. I'd go, thank you for. Yeah, couples like it. They like it. They like it.

They're starting to get to know each other. Again. Because don't forget with the general, I don't know, life, it's too busy. People don't get, they get to know each other, you know, they're together before the kids come along and they know each other then and this wonderful, you know, full flows of limerence and free and enjoy. Do whatever. Yeah. Spontaneous sex happens all the time. Yeah. Everywhere.

Everywhere. Nobody's thinking about it. But don't worry when your kids leave home, it all happens again. It does. I've got lots of people that, you know, really, really, they can rekindle after that. You know, they can get back to normal. But yes, that's, yeah, it's that sort of, it's getting to know each other, keeping in touch with each other. Well, have you developed that cough? Where did that come from? Is that that that vape? What are you doing? How is it, is that good for you? Oh, I know you're trying to give up.

That feels caring, right? Yes. It's not like lecturing. No. That's coming from love. No, from love. Yes, the nagging, that's, you know, that sort of constant, constant repetition, that doesn't necessarily have to happen. There can be a different way of communicating. Because those, those, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, all the time just wears away at the fabric of the bond. It's exhausting as well.

Yeah, it can be. It can be. You know, when you wake up the next day and that's been. Yeah, and you open your eyes and it's like, oh, he'll be. we go again. We've done this. Yeah. I'm another, that's another rule that I have no talking at night. No, no deeper meaningfuls at night. No. Oh, no deeper meaningfuls in the bed. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I guess then the bed becomes a hostile place. Yes. Or not a hostile, but you know, like a not a sexy

place. Not a sexy place, not a kind place. It can discombobulate those deep and meaningfuls. Somebody's tired. So something needs to happen. Like if you're going to have a deeper meaningful, you You need to make an appointment in a different room. Come on, emotional check. Let's go somewhere else. Let's sit down. I had this with Ben Branson on the hidden 20%. He said, well, I can't go to bed if the argument is still alive. And I said, but what about your wife?

He's got three kids all day. She can't have a deeper meaningful. 11 o'clock at night. No, that can't happen. He wasn't happy about it. But he did, you know, he took it on. Actually, do you know, I've always been told that you can't go to bed on an argument. But actually, perhaps sometimes it's better.

to leave it until everybody's fresh and not take it into that bedroom. So it sounds like if somebody's in real crisis, it takes a lot of work. You've both got to be prepared to put in the work. It's not something you can just go, oh, well, we just love each other. It's not like that.

You must work to keep a relationship alive. I really believe that. I think everybody could come into a couple's therapist for, you know, a six week. six session MOT. And to say, look, this is what we're thinking about. Yeah, fine, let's have a think about that. And even good couples.

Yes. Even good couples could benefit from sitting with somebody, a safe space, and actually, can you help us with this? We keep doing this. Let's have a look. Let's unpick that. Let's think about how we could, you know, change that, shuffle that up a bit.

Well, imagine the joy for you having like a healthy couple come in and you can help them unpick something. You're not having to deal with any dramas or anything. It's like, well, that's actually a healthy couple is when the work is, that's really, you know, you get straight into it. Straight into it. Because the first job is managing the crisis. Yes.

Calming it all down. Yes. And then getting de-escalation. Yeah, the de-escalation. Yeah, that's the first job. I mean, I can't get through to the end of this without mentioning infidelity and trust, loss of trust. I mean, there was quite an interesting one you talked about because loss of trust isn't just infidelity. No.

It can be when a secret or a lie. Ha, when's a lie a lie? Yeah, that was like profound. There's lies and lies, isn't there? Just been talking about this actually. When is a lie a lie? Because people, they don't think they're lying. They will cover things up

because they are ashamed of something. Blue Therapy was good at this because Mike wasn't lying. You know, the guy that used to go out and go around the corner and then come home, even though he'd lost it, pretend he was going to work. But it's that. It's that covering up and people, people with their own levels of shame, not being able to tell the truth, which we see in couples.

We do see that. And it's not just, I mean, the big ones are infidelity. But again, I mean, I've seen couples who can't, like one person can't tell the truth because the person that they're talking to gets so upset. Fear of that. that they're frightened of the escalation. The escalation. The reactivity.

They'd like to be honest. The reactivity. But they can't be honest because when they are, all hell breaks loose. Yes, but what's that about? What's that about? Why is that reactivity is quite? Why is it there? And why does that, you know, what's the missing piece there for those two?

And how do people come back from infidelity? Well, Esther's, Esther Perel's brilliant on this, isn't she? Those infidelities, are they the opportunity to re-broker. your entire relationship. And they can be. They can be. What was the infidelity? How was it?

There's levels of infidelity. There's levels of deceit. There's levels of dishonesty. It's a big one. It's the thing that comes in and it's tricky. But it's also like, I think the big thing is, I guess I would like to believe that if you are happy with someone and your relationship is fulfilled,

but it's, be possible for one person to think that the marriage is great and the other not. And the other not. Yeah. Or the other. Is that possible? Yeah, it is possible. Or the other is just a little bit more sort of seeking, seeking stimulation outside

the marriage is a little bit. So could it be that someone just wants to have a fling with someone else, but they still love their wife? Yes. Yes, it can. But not even a fling. I mean, there's got to be, there's, there has to be rules to say it, but they have to be rules. Own the fact that. When do you put the rules down?

At the beginning. And then that's my couple deal rules. What's infidelity? Is it a deal breaker? What is it? Is it that you're having a sort of an emotional fare at the office? Is that infidelity? Is it that...

What does an emotional fare look like? Not a physical one. It's not physical. No, it's where you have... You seek somebody out at the office. Are you cheating if you are... If you have a sort of an emotional connection... And emotional connection.

And talking to that person about your private life or how you're feeling. And how do you keep that person's secret from your... You probably, you may not even keep them secrets, but do you own the whole level of the actual relationship? How do you feel about that? Is that infidelity? Well, that's interesting because for some people...

The work wife or the work husband, you know, that sort of scenario. That comes up quite a lot. And yes, it is. It can threaten the other partner. That does just sort of sound quite right. I'm there. And I'll be... And I'll be interested to see your take on this.

I have really probably been quite bounded around my very close relationships with members of the opposite sex because at some point, if you get too close, there's going to be some fuzzy... There's a blur. There's a blur from one of you. Sometimes. Sometimes. What you're saying is that there's the potential for that.

Yes. And you don't want to run the risk of that potential. No, I don't want to lead some on. Exactly. Exactly. So you're being very boundaries about it and decided. Boundaries are good. Boundaries are good.

But what's your take on? Like, can guys have really close workwives or whatever and be best friends and go out for lunch and stuff? So I'm quite interested in the idea of a work husband. Stop. No. Women can do work husbands. Because it's like platonic.

I just don't think men can do platonically. Because men can have girlfriends. Men can just be friends with girls. And they will always, if they're given the opportunity, they'll take it. Yeah. Where women, I don't think are as bad as well. Men can't have work wise. People can't keep anything platonic, I don't think.

That is absolutely dependent on how honest they are with their actual partners. Right. And I would say there is always, you run a risk and you know the point at which you're running a risk. And you will run that. You can feel it. And maybe they will run that risk if things aren't okay at home. At home, yeah. Because if things are okay at home, it's really hard for a third to get in.

Yes. It is really hard. You know, it's difficult for somebody to actually penetrate a good, a good couple. It's difficult. And this is why, like it's so important to work on your relationship. That's right. To keep it live. To keep it live.

Relationships are live entities. They need feeding. They need watering. They need thinking about. They need to be worked on. You can't just say, oh, yeah, I'm married or I'm, yeah, this is. You can't just do that. It won't work.

It's not a stagnant thing. It doesn't stay like that. It needs to develop. It needs to be looked at and cared for. And when it's dying, you can both feel it. Yeah. Yeah. You can.

And that's the dangers. And then there's your decision. Right. What do we do now? Come on. Let's get some help. Let's get some help. So we asked our viewers, listeners, if we could get some questions from them.

So why, in your experience, are you taking me a lot more seriously now I'm wearing glasses? Yes, I am actually quite frightening. Hang on, I'll just do this. Hang on, I'll do this. You do this. You do this. I'm sorry, you do, don't you? I've seen you do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Over the end of the glasses. And then it's like a kind of... And then something comes, yeah, I'll say something.

Yeah, I know, I know. A bit of my own medicine here. Yeah, now you know how they feel. Right? Oh my God. I'm going to have to think about this. Hold my hand. Don't leave me hanging. I love you.

I'm not being such a nice time. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. So why does love fizzle out, boredom or chemical? Well, boredom. It's not chemical.

Chemicals are, they can be renewed. They can be regenerated. It's boredom. If you've lost the curiosity. Yes. You have lost the ability to actually want to know something about somebody, if you want to connect with somebody, then that's that. Chemistry is, okay, I love him, but I don't fancy him.

That's a state of mind, actually, all right? It's a state of mind. There are loads of ways that a couple can be inventive in the bedroom and bring back some chemistry. Tell me some ways. Well, well, we've talked about them, be intimate. Anything. This world is just full of potential for raunchy, raunchy experiences wherever. there's so much out there.

I mean, it's been interesting actually on this podcast, what's appealed to people. I think because a lot of our audience are maybe beginning again as a second chat in their lives and like, what are we doing? It's like sex as you get older, I guess people would be a bit more free. It's like let's do some roleplay.

Let's try something different in the bedroom. Outside. Would you go polyamory? Polyamory. What's polyamory? What's polyamory again when you have a third? Third, fourth group. It's very dependent, actually.

It's quite tricky polyamory. But lots of people are making it work. Lots of people just think that that's, as long as both people, as long as the primary relationship is secure, I think. And I think that's the way that it works. Everybody has to be, because I couldn't imagine it,

if one person was being cajoled into something. No, no. That would not be just the worst feeling ever, like, That's not genuine polyamory. It's not going to work. It's not going to work and it's not genuine polyamory. Okay. What needs to happen to be in love with someone and sustain it?

I mean, I know we've slightly covered this really. Yeah, but you have to, you have to, being in love, what are you talking about? Are you talking about that incredible mix of chemicals and experiences and surprise and wonder, the limerance of the first two years? Are you talking about when that calms down and there's just the two of you and you can mooch around and what is love? It changes, it develops, it morphs, it moves into your couple according to where your couple is.

The zeitgeist of the moment, you know, how do you maintain that, how do you, how does love become translated into acceptance and fun and humour? All that intimacy, how do you translate, how do you keep the relationship going? And it is what we've talked about, this intimacy, this fun. Holding hands or doing something physical. And love, what is love? Love is different for every person. Is it because that person's got your back?

Is it because that person's on your team? That's got, is that love? What is your definition of love? It's very, it's dependent. Everybody has their own definitions. You can always ask someone, can you, what do you need? on it. Yeah, what do you need? But you agree on it. Yeah, this is, I really love you. You know, you. I really love you too. Oh, so, so.

Okay, this is, this is a good one. What's the most important thing in a relationship, friendship, friendship, sex or something else? Do you know, I think probably you've got to be mates. I think probably you have to be friends. You've got to like, you. Sex won't happen unless you like the person. Exactly. Well, that's not necessarily true. As we said earlier on, that's not necessarily true. Sex can happen and you can absolutely loathe them. But it's not going to last. No. It's not going to last.

So I'd say friendship. Yeah. I'd say actually. At the core. Yeah, at the core, having sort of common values, common experiences, enjoying the same things. Yes, I'd say that. Yeah. Can you find love after loss?

Most definitely. Don't look for the same. Don't think it can be replaced. But you can definitely find love again. It'll be different, but you can find it. I just thought I'd let that hang there for a minute because that was lovely. Yeah. And big, actually.

I think when you've lost someone you love, yeah. You just think you'll never find that again, but you don't want to find that again. No. You will find love. Yeah. Not that one. How do I convince my husband, this is a good one,

to do marriage guidance counselling? So I believe we need it, but he thinks. thinks we don't. I get lots of emails around this. How do I? And I say, okay, so sell it like this. Come in for the initial session. Get him in just to have a chat. He never has to come back again. Yes. But get him in to have a chat and let's see how that goes. And there may be a moment during that chat when actually something changes for him. So just don't think about doing the counseling. Just say, come on, let's go and meet her or let's go and meet him and just see. You'd be amazed how often that works.

Really? Yeah. It really does. How can I better understand and communicate my emotional needs in a relationship without feeling like a burden? Oh. Like that you feel like you're being, oh, it's, you know, I'm being needy. That's it. That's what it feels like.

Because if you can't. But you're allowed to be needy. Yes, totally. You're allowed to communicate your needs. Exactly. If that conversation isn't happening between you, then actually what are you doing? That needs to happen. You are allowed to be needy.

Somebody explained it to me brilliantly once. Go on. Which was, if you're feeling needy, it's because your needs aren't being met. And I'd always thought of it as like, oh, I'm needy. But actually, when you're with somebody that meets your needs, you're not. You're not needy. And also that definition of needy. It really annoys me.

Just because somebody shows vulnerability and wants support does not make them needy. Just because somebody is not confident enough, not necessarily needy. Perhaps you can, as a couple, you could work together on that so that one does feel a little bit more comfortable in oneself. As I was, we were talking about that, weren't we? About how the couple can develop each other, not just together. So I'm not sure about that neediness. And I think what's interesting is also if you're worried about feeling needy, then have they got a problem with needy people? And is that a problem they've got, you know, as well.

Yeah, is that their problem in that they're not emotionally in touch and can't actually think about you or have you in mind, the other in mind and their needs? That can happen. Very difficult for some people I really like this one How do you know who the right person is for you? Do you think you know? I do yeah For me

But have you known before? No You know, did you think you did you I don't think I've ever felt right for anyone Okay And I feel like this one is right.

I'll tell you why, because I really like myself with this person. You know, they just, he just brings out the best in you. You are personally happy. I like myself. And comfortable. Yeah. And with yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. Rather than being, rather than trying to please the other, you are. Or that I bring out things in the other person that isn't them and they bring out something in me that's not me that I don't like. Yeah. People don't recognize it. People don't recognize that that's happening. They don't, they don't, they don't, they don't know that that's, that's happening. I, I don't know. I'm not, I don't know that there is the one. Yeah. I think there might be, no. And I think there might be one for a certain decade or two. Yeah. And that might not be the one that's going to see you through to the next. to the next phase. Yeah. So when do you know if you love somebody? You know if, I don't know if it's the one.

I agree. I don't think there is the one. And I think that everybody's a bit hung up on finding the one. And I don't. It's like you just said after you've lost someone. Yes. Yes, there's someone else for you. There's someone else.

They'll be different. Exactly. It won't be the same. Exactly. So I'm not sure that there is the one. There might be one that really, really suits you. And go with it and work at it and see. You might be lucky.

It might be the one. But I'm not sure you can know that from the beginning. Yes. That's a hard one. Yes, that's very good. And are dating apps no longer working? Apparently not. If so, where do you meet good people?

Hmm. So really, I just had that conversation earlier on. It's a big one, that one. I think, you know, everybody's talking about AI disconnection, robot. This, this, this, this, this. But I think that's bringing out something. else in people. I think that they are wanting to connect. Yeah. I agree. So there are communities that are building up everywhere. You know,

have you seen those coffee morning raves and... Oh my God, we were talking about that this morning. Yeah, coffee morning raves where everybody... We want to do begin again, coffee morning raves. Exactly. I'll invite you. You must. Thank you very much. I'll be shimmering. Can't wait. That's, you know, there are communities building up everywhere around different things. art, fashion, painting, all sorts of things. And I think that that's more likely now, dog walking. I think it's more likely that people are going to meet them, if they've just got to get out and get part of those communities.

You know, meetups walking or whatever it is, chess or whatever. But I think, I do believe there's going to be more of a shift towards that rather than the swiping. I don't know. But I think that's what that's what I'm hearing from definitely the, definitely under 30s. They are much more able to just align themselves with different communities. And maybe it's a generation thing. Maybe as people, people find that hard when they've got their kids.

But, you know, after that, that's what that's what people do when the kids leave. They start joining communities to bring life back to themselves. I think, I hope. I really hope. So if you are alone and you would like to meet people, go join a group. Anything. Anything. Anything.

Dancing, hiking, like anything. Anything. Art school. Ceramics, fashion, sewing, chess. There's so many things going on. You know, there's whatever. Anything. There's so much going on.

You can literally find. You can find a tribe anywhere. You can find a tribe. God bless Google. Maybe six tribes. And then you, you know. and then you're out there. You are out there.

Six tribes, I'm imagining then, like, a polyamorous relationship. In every tribe, can you imagine? Well, maybe a bit much, but, you know, that's hopefully the way forward. Karen, thank you. Thank you. This has been absolutely mega. Thank you so much. Big round of applause.

Thank you. That was so, so, so good. Thank you. You're absolutely great. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.