Begin Again with Davina McCall - Richard E. Grant: Richard E. Grant: Losing The Love Of My Life & Growing Up With An Alcoholic.

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Richard E. Grant opens up about his turbulent childhood—growing up with a narcissistic mother, an alcoholic father, and the lasting impact of both. He reflects on finding true love with his wife Joan, their deep connection, and the grief of losing her four years ago. A raw and moving conversation about survival, love, and navigating life after loss. Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro (02:34) Childhood and Early Life (03:18) Guilty Pleasures (04:41) How to Find Excitement (06:22) Overcoming a Difficult Childhood (19:28) Growing Up in Apartheid South Africa and Taking Risks (26:33) Meeting His Wife, Joan (32:16) Mother, Relationships, and Reconciliation (40:23) Forgiveness and Coping With His Wife’s Passing (1:09:00) Life Lessons From Richard E. Grant (1:11:03) Falling in Love (1:20:05) Living With Grief (1:24:22) What's Next? A Pocketful of Happiness (1:26:33) Davina's Final Thoughts – Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's something else here now. Something new. From exclusively on Paramount Plus. It's the series Stephen King calls Scary as Hell. Everything here is impossible, but it's also real. Sci-fi vision calls it the best show streaming right now. We're running out of time and we still don't know the rules. Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch.

Saving those children is how we all go home. From binge all episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Your wife got cancer. She was sick. Nobody could talk to you about that. And then she died. She didn't want to talk about it. She said to my daughter and I, we cannot tell anybody. And I said, that is an insanity. So she was the first woman you fell in love with? Yeah, really. I mean, I thought I'd been in love, but really falling in love with somebody. That warped me. Yeah. She said to me right at the beginning when she got the diagnosis,

I want you to let us be together right up until the end. So on the day that she died, I was sitting, holding her hand. conversation that began in January 1993, then stopped 38 years later, still talking and still holding each other's hands. To have had that with one human being, I think is the greatest gift that you can have. Because at the end of your life, it's not the achievements that you've done or the money that you've made. It's the relationship that you have with people that you care for. But how were you after she died? You feel that you're never going to be able to fully breathe again. I now write to Joan every night.

I know in writing to her, it keeps the connection going. I think the chances of meeting somebody and feeling that, I don't know how many times that can happen in your life. Weren't we lucky? Really lucky. Really, really lucky. Okay, I've got a favour to ask you. I was just wondering if you could just give us a follow.

It costs absolutely nothing. It's completely free. and it really helps us to continue to bring you lots more episodes of Begin Again. I'm so pleased you're enjoying it. Thanks. Richard, I want to start by saying, I just accosted you on the way in because reading about your life in such detail, I knew a bit about you from Instagram and everything, but actually going into the minutiae of your life,

made me really regret not knowing more about you when I sat next you for four hours when we were on the panel of the Masked Singer we would have had so much to talk about. Yeah, but it's on a place that you can really sort of say, Biasam, what did your granny do? And your father stooped her, you know, you can't start the moment to do it.

You know, I mean, growing up, being born in Swaziland, were you born in Swaziland? Yeah. Yeah. And it's the smallest country in the southern hemisphere. Yes, you have done your association. Yes, it is, the smallest country in the Southern Hemisphere, and it's it literally feels like you've, you know, the whole world is outside and beyond. So there was no TV, there was the BBC World Service on the radio, and there was one cinema, and that was it.

I mean, in terms of the things that I'm interested in. Yes. So, and with your... Reading, reading, reading, that was my way out. So I read voraciously. But that's the making of someone, I think, reading, literature, education. Yeah. But it's also, you know, I like trash TV as well.

Okay, wait, I've got to ask you now while we're on that. What's your face? Passwise of anything. Really? Passwise of anything. Below deck, above deck. Any deck. Any deck.

Oh, yeah. I just can't imagine you watching Housewives. There's got to be a favorite series. It's almost like people are different. species on this show on these shows. And my daughter started watching them. They're so, there's something, because of what I do for a living, it's, you know, where everything is scripted to see stuff that is a free-for-all where people are making it up.

You see like real life happening, even if it is, however it's set up it might be, there's something absolutely riveting about that to me. God, isn't it funny the things that we start loving when we get a bit older? Like, it's just like a guilty pleasure. I have no guilt. I have no guilt whatsoever. Oh God, that's great. Yeah.

No, guilt is an absolute waste of time. You can do whatever you like. Yeah, do what you want. Yeah. The other thing I loved, the other day you were talking about... I was a spice world of a movie. You know, I can't sit the high horse. That was a great movie.

Don't put it down, Richard. I'm not putting it down. No, good. Other people did. No, well, I loved it. Good. You were talking about helping your daughter with the Monday Blues. Yeah.

And there is a thing when animals shake, they're shaking off negative feelings. But you were talking about this kind of the bit where you grip and you get really excited. It's like it gives you some kind of adrenaline joy or hit. Yeah, it makes you feel better. I just did it in the car. And you immediately, I can feel it right now. It's like goes right through you. It's a fantastic feeling.

You see, when you do it, it looks like you're strained to get one out. Like that. That's all I feel like. Yes, Christmas is coming. I go like, I tense my whole body like all my muscles and I'm like, like that. Yeah. Anyway. It makes you feel good.

It does. I mean, it brings, I think, a bit of a rush. And I always like that. Have you done that all your life? No, but I have shaken. Like I'm trying to shake it off, like Taylor told us to. But I've never done that. To get rid of something.

Yeah. I just want to get nerves or something like that. But what I liked about what you do is that it's summoning excitement, not getting rid of something negative. It's summoning something positive. Okay. That's how I see it. All right.

It brings you a good feeling as opposed to getting rid of a bad. bad one. All right. All right. Well, you've analysed all this. I just go, Christmas is coming. I'm seeing DeVina. I wanted to talk to you about your mum and dad and how you found out. To me, it felt like a pretty traumatic experience of you being in the car because you lived with your mum and dad together, but then this thing happened. You were asleep in the back of the car. In the year that you were born, 1967. Yes. Yes.

What happened there? Oh, my mother and my father's best friend were on the front seat of a car and stopped on the way back from a cricket match. And I was asleep on the back seat of the car and I woke up and the lights weren't on. So I knew that I wasn't home. But there was a rhythmic movement in the car that I wasn't the car engine. and then gingerly looked over the front seat and my mum and my dad's best friend were having it off from the front seat. So I knew that I was seeing something that I shouldn't say.

I didn't really understand what they were doing. And they didn't see you see? No. You just slid away. I just lay back on the seat and kept completely quiet and pretended to be asleep again. I knew that I was seeing, witnessing something that I shouldn't have. So how did that affect you afterwards?

Because that's a big secret. You feel guilty. Yeah, you feel guilty. Because I thought, oh, I must be somehow, you feel that you're completed in it, that it's dirty. Yeah, that you're, that you'll see, you know something that nobody else should know. And I obviously couldn't tell my dad, couldn't tell my mother.

So I started, I tried God, got no reply. And then I started keeping a diary. Because that would be the one way. You know, if I wrote it down, then it did happen. And that's what I've done ever since. Did it, did or has anybody ever read your diaries? Because I wrote a diary, but my diary got read. And I got into really big trouble for it.

And I just wondered, how did you hide your diaries? Because I think that, you know, my mother was, I now understand, as an adult was a narcissist. So I think she had no, you know, if it wasn't about her, if her picture was on the cover of my diary, I think she might have been interested in having a look at it.

But I just kept it hidden in my bedroom. So I'm not aware that they ever saw that. And did you... I've been asked that. I've never been asked that. Have your parents ever read your diaries, no. Because I think if

basically if a child is writing something then I'm surprised your mum didn't if she was a narcissist but I guess she would have been the one in the diary and your dad probably wasn't interested I don't know in reading something And it's also because I As I said before

I had huge number of books even when I was a boy I've hit my diary amongst my books so it's not something that she would have found. And how, because then you must have known that they were in bad shape as a couple. Oh yeah, because they didn't speak to each other. For nine months, the last nine months of their marriage, it was asked Devina for the salt or ask your father for the keys, ask your mother for this.

So I was piggy in the middle. But I think it's very common with divorcing parents that the child is. And then you're caught between the devil and the deeply. so you don't know who you're supposed to be loyal to, because you love both of them. Who did you feel loyal to? I think to my dad, because my dad got custody of me,

which I know you share this thing as well, which was very unusual. So rare. Because traditionally it's the mother that wants, or take the children, but my mother's position was that, oh well you wouldn't have to leave home and you'd still be at school with all your friends so that's how she logically put it but of course what you feel is that you've been rejected

that's the one person that should not be saying no I think this is good for you you want to say well you know take me but it turned out for the best because when I had psychoanalysis when I was 40 this absolutely extraordinary man said to me would you you have preferred to have lived with your mother who was sober or with your father who became an alcoholic? You know, he tried to shoot me at I was 15 when I emptied all his scotch supply down the sink. And I'd never thought of it like that. And I said, I'd prefer to have lived with my father. So even though he was an alcoholic or became an alcoholic after my mother left, the person that I knew and loved by day

outweighed the monster that he turned into when he'd downed a bottle of Johnny Walker, which I know we share in common, that your mother did the same thing. My mum used to have a bottle of Johnny Walker black label. She still had her levels of, what would you call it, like taste. You know, she had to kind of have the black label, obviously.

every day she drank a whole bottle. Was your dad one bottle a day? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it would come nine o'clock at night, there would be this personality switch, and he became unrecognizable.

So if you had the choice between living with your mother or your father, who would you have chosen? My father. Oh, same thing. Yeah, but your father wasn't the alcoholic? No. I mean, my mother was good fun.

Like absolutely hilarious, brilliant, beautiful, fiery, sexy. Mad. French. A French. Hot blood. Like hot blood, yeah. I needed security.

I wanted stability and I couldn't get that with her. I just got forgotten all the time. So do you think addiction is in your DNA? Because you were a heroin addict. Yes. I've got to be very careful. You don't start interviewing me, Richard. Oh, no, I don't.

I will quickly tell you that I believe that I believe that I'm, The whole that drugs filled for me was partially genetic, but also the loss of my mother's love and the way that that made me make wrong decisions around things, but it also made me very insecure. At my core, I was on sort of quick sound. And drugs made me feel solid. I feel safe on drugs, which sounds very weird.

No, no, I understand that. And do you still long for them? No. Because I'm no longer on quicksand. I've got to a place in my life where I feel very solid and safe. Safe. So how- Did you ever feel safe?

I think safety is a big key for me. Yeah, I felt safe. I found a surrogate maternal figure in my piano teacher. Oh, did you? Yeah. She fulfilled everything that my mother didn't. So I felt safe with her, but in my own family life, I never felt safe. Never.

Because if you have a parent that's an addict, as you will know, it's schizoid because who they are when they're sober and who they are when they're not, the part that I remember now about my father was when he was sick. sober, but when I'm doubtful, which is every day at some point, the voice of you're not good enough, you're useless, you're ugly, you're have no talent, that's what comes squatting on my, and I have to consciously go, shut up, because that was what he would say when he was drunk. But that is what you remember. And I think it's the same with most actors that I know, is that the worst reviews that you've had, that's what you remember. You don't remember when people,

people say, oh no, I think you're brilliant of what you do. Somehow you don't believe that and you don't, that's not what you remember. You remember the bad stuff. What I find interesting about you, Richard, is that you went through all of this, a very tough childhood, really, and yet you are such a positive person full of gratitude. Well, I think that's, I think that that is what your innate personality is. I think that, because I know people who've had much easier lives and my childhood was who were miserable. Yes.

And I think maybe they always were tending towards the glass, three quarters empty. And I've always been glass three quarters full to the annoyance of people where you go, you know, why are you so excited about stuff? Why, you know, is this an act? you being so delighted in things. And it's not because having to sustain that would be,

that would be, I can't imagine what that would be like, playing a role where you have to be up and peppy all the time, but I do. My dad said to me when I was eight or nine, he said you're like an overwound clock. It's like bottles of Coca-Cola that are all fizzing at all at the same time. And I think that's just how you are.

Do you feel that it's different? I feel, I've had the, phrase annoyingly enthusiastic. Yeah. Throwing at me. And I've thought, I'll take that. I'll take that over misery, you know. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I feel somewhere genetics play a part. My dad was unbelievably positive in the light of redundancy. Like everything could go wrong for my dad, but he'd still always find a positive. and his mum, my granny, was like that. So I feel like there were genetic things, people in my family who have passed down some kind of positivity to me.

But I also feel like, if you are slightly like that as a person, I read this in you, that the tough times in your life, you'll always try and find a learning from them. Yeah. And my dad died when he was 52 years old. And I was 24 and I thought, I knew it was young then, but I thought if I can live till I'm 53. So every year that I've lived beyond his lifespan, it feels like a bonus.

And I thought, well, if you, you know, because you never know what's coming. So try and live and grab as much of the day as you can. How did you feel when your dad died? Well, because he was a chain smoker, I felt real frustration that he had said, oh, I'll carry on smoking. I don't care. Of course, as soon as he got diagnosed with lung cancer, then he stopped, but it was too late. So, you know, the frustration of that, and certainly when my wife died of lung cancer as well,

and having not smoked for 40 years, there is that thing if only the person had, you know, because the information has always been there. and when I see people smoking now I want to beg them and say please do you know what a gruesome death it is but of course you can't because even on the boxes it's showing you what a lung looks like

and people are just absolutely oblivious of that Have you ever smoked? No never I tried it Have you? Yeah I did and I was in love with smoking like if anybody tried to tell me to stop

I'd be like don't drood. If it smelled good then I would because I love smelling everything but the smell of it and the smell of cigarettes on people's bodies and their breath. Now, I mean, I stopped when I was 24 and I... Sucking an ashtray.

Yeah, yuck. I couldn't do it now, but at the time I do understand people are very attached to it in a way that they can't... Addictive. One of the other things that I was really blown away by was...

Yes, Dr. Freud. One of the other things I was really blown away. Sorry, yes. When I was reading about you was your love of acting came through school and various kind of productions that were put on. But I loved this idea of the troop that you set up that was, because was it at the time of apartheid?

Yes, I went to university in Cape Town, which was the nearest by 1,200 miles, that I could do a degree as well as a drama diploma. So the only thing my father said was prepared to pay for. And so I was co-founded a, it was called the Drup Theatre Company, in Cape Town in 1980 for two years, which was a multiracial group of actors at a time when they had to, you couldn't socialize. It was a weird anomaly that you could rehearse together in the theatre, but you couldn't go to the same restaurants.

go on the same bus and you couldn't live in the same areas of the city. And that was, and yet in the theatre you could. You could stoop people and you could work together and do all of that, but outside the theatre you weren't able to do that. And it seems, if you think about it now, it seems absolutely insane. Yeah, it's hard to even imagine what that would have been like, didn't it make you angry. Oh yeah, which is great because it's absolutely galvanises what you want to do

and to try not to be judgmental on somebody's religion or their ethnicity. So that, and I'd gone to school with Mandela's daughters in Swaziland. So, and there were 27 nationalities at the school as well. So it was, it felt like we were in the crucible of a revolution in South Africa. Because when I went to university there, leaving Swaziland, was multiracial and didn't have the apartheid laws, but South Africa still did. But in 1976 when I started university, all the black students in the country rioted against being taught in Afrikaans.

And so it felt like things were going to happen. And the police and the army completely squashed that for another 14 years. Yeah, it did make you angry. I bet. And of course when you're that age, you know, you're very, everything is literally black and white, that you feel that you are going to be able to change the world by doing theatre or whatever you do. And of course that's not what happens.

It's economic. Economics bring that change. But I mean, how many multiracial troops, acting troops were there at the time? Were you... Pretty unique? We were the, yeah, there was one in Johannesburg at the market theatre, and then there was this one that we made. So you were changing the world?

Well, we felt like we were, but, you know, in reality, it's... Well, it makes a difference. Well, I don't know that it does. I think these little, I feel like... Yeah, I do. I feel like everybody, well, even you talking about it now, for example. Yeah. Somebody listening might go, wow, he did that.

I'd quite like to do this thing that's a bit different. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Even if at the time it would inspire people to do something, to step out of the confines of what people expect or want you to do, to take risks, or it's a brilliant thing. Yeah, my worry about it is that you risk sounding self-righteous or that you are somehow better than somebody else,

whereas this came from just absolute the anger of the social injustice of it. That was the thing that galvanised us. So you don't even... You think, well, there's no alternative. It has to be like this. How can you possibly say, because of somebody's beliefs

or what colour of their skin, that you take judgment against them? Yeah, I mean, not self-righteous at all. It's amazing. Yeah. It's common sense Yeah it is but I think lots of people are frightened of that Sometimes

Common sense can feel a bit dangerous sometimes And it's good to step out of That kind of restrictive Ideals that people have and take a risk and do something a bit naughty What's the biggest risk you've taken? Well in terms of social... Well I mean this sounds really stupid In comparison to what you did

No, I've done nothing I guess I think talking about the menopause, when kind of the general feeling was don't do that because it'll age you. And if you get aged, you won't get entertainment TV programs anymore. And you'll be seen as somebody that's a bit less desirable. I was like, I don't care. And did you feel the impact of that on your work prospects? Only in a good way. Only in a positive.

I think it's been good for me in terms of how I feel about myself. and in terms of feeling part of female, the female domain and being, I walk past women in the street, midlifers, and we go like that. All right, I've got your back. And they're like, I've got yours. You're all right, thanks. It's so funny, I'll sit opposite somebody on the tube. See them having a hot flush and go, yeah.

I know, sister. It's such a good club. It's such a good club. Minus five degrees. Yeah. Anyway, so I think that it was seen by others as like, we're not sure you should do this. And I was like, I don't really care.

I have to do it. I'm really glad I did. So where do you think your fearlessness comes from? My childhood. What about you? Yeah. Yeah. So like, it's a positive.

I think it is. Yeah. but it's it's only when somebody else pointed out to you because you don't I don't think

you particularly feel that you think oh well just bumbling along your life and the confusion of all of it but then somebody says oh you did this and that always takes me back

somehow I always think everybody else has got the answers I still do and do you find it easy to find answers in yourself like can you

if you dig deep can you find the answers that you need? I think that, you know, it's what you said before we started this when we met outside. You said we've got so many things in our lives that are in common, that with Michael your partner, that you feel that or with your late sister, that the voice of that reason or logic is carried in you and helps you make a decision. And because I was with my late wife for 38 years, I know what, you know, if I was describing what you were wearing now and what you were like and how this all went,

I very clearly know what her response would be. And of course she'd say, well, out of ten, how much do you fancy Devin a call? You know, because I know immediately there's sort of a lioness in her would be going like, you know, am I being challenged here by a beautiful young woman? And that delights me Because it's So that sort of is ongoing in my head Is that what you mean when you say

Do you know stuff? Yeah Or that informs your decision making Yeah I love the sound of Joan She really sounds like my kind of woman She was very feisty And very small

Five foot four But you know Celtic blood So I think that's You know like your French blood It's a different heat from Angus Axon. So you two met

what was it? 84? End of 82. 82. So a year after your dad died you went down to London. Yeah. And then met her and How did you meet? I met her at the, I went to,

she was coaching a series of regional accents at the actor centre. So, oh the notes have gone. Yeah. I mean, I don't need it. And so I met her there and I said, I'd gone to learn a Northern Irish thing because there were so many dramas being made about the troubles.

And this agent that I had said, you know, you're over six foot, you have dark hair and blue eyes. You could go up for Northern Irish parts. And he said, what's your Belfast accent like? And I said, debatable. And so I went and had these, did the sessions. And then I asked Joe Washington, who was coaching, if she could teach her.

me privately to sort out my colonial sound. And she said, well, I know what you're talking about. And I said, yeah, but I, a director had said to me that I spoke like somebody for the 1950s. And I suppose Swaziland was in a kind of time war of that expat society. So she, I said, how long is it going to take? And she gave me a couple of lessons. And I said, how much is it going to cost?

She's 20 pounds an hour. And I said, I can't afford that because I'm working as a waiter in Covent Garden. and my bed sit in Notting Hill costs 30 pounds a week so 20 pounds for an hour it's a huge amount of money she said well what can you afford and I said 12 pounds she said all right

okay come for 12 pounds on condition that if you ever make it as an actor you have to repay me so on our first wedding anniversary in 1987 I read that paper is the gift that you're supposed to give so I gave her a thousand pounds in 50 pound

notes and I said, I hope that I've repaid my debt. She said yes, I think that'll do. My God, how great. Yeah. And she... I like that belt that says I am the boss. Is it a close-up of that? Oh, what's the story? So, I mean, I feel this is like a conversation. This is quite weird. But anyway, Michael's helped me develop a relationship with my mother even though she's died. Right. So I mean, I feel After her death, we were estranged, but after her death, I said to him once, you would have loved my mum. Yeah.

And he said, I've met her. And I said, I don't understand. And he put his hand here, and he went, she's in here. Wow. And I was like, and then I put my first photograph up of my mother in my house. Never had a picture of my mother up in my house in a frame. And in this picture, she's rolling a joint. Of course.

She's got this belt on. She's wearing that belt. Well, he found me an exact replica of the belt on eBay in Japan or something. Wow. And I got it for my next birthday. He's a man in touch with everything by the sound of it. He's amazing. So, and I thought, I'm interviewing Richard.

I'm going to wear this belt today. I'm honoured. He's going to love it. Is he the best? boss or you are the boss? We're bosses. Your bosses together. I mean, I would say I

look to him for a lot of things but then he will say I've helped him a lot with things. But we look to each other for different things. I look to him for advice and feedback. Who's the most stable

of you too? I'd say him. Okay. But he might say me. I don't know. That's interesting. Call it. I don't know where I was. I am the boss.

Yeah, it's good, isn't it? That was so my mum. How old are you when she died? 41. And you hadn't reconciled? No. I mean, I'd tried for years. It was exhausting.

I don't know what it was like. For you, with your mum, the narcissist, but you know you keep going back. You do. In Narcotics Anonymous, they say that insanity is repeating the same mistake but expecting different results. Story of my life. It's quite good though, isn't it?

Yeah. And it was driving me insane. I just kept going back to my mum, going, please will you mother me? And then she'd do something and I'd go, why do I keep doing this? I've been doing it for 40 years. I've got to stop.

So who did you find a surrogate mother in? My step-man. Oh, your step-maud? She's amazing. And she's still alive. Yeah. I just had the weekend with her. What about you?

Did you get a surrogate? Oh, your teacher? Yeah, my teacher, who died when she was 94. Were you still in touch with it then? Oh, for my whole life. Were you? Yeah, she's my piano teacher as well as she was Scottish called Bunny Barnes. Oh, she was Scottish as well.

Yeah, and she was my English teacher. and because she did all the music for the amateur plays and musicals that I was in when I was at school at the theater club, she became a mentor and said she was the one person that didn't laugh when I said that I wanted to be a professional actor when I left school. She didn't think that was a ridiculous notion. So having one person believe in you and then we stayed in touch all the way through until she died. I was doing my for a lady at Sydney Opera Company in 2007 and she died at 9.4. So we had from phone call to faxes and then emails. So my relationship, I've got boxes of all our correspondence in a way that I don't have

with my mother at all. My mother was somebody who would write almost in telegram form of going, I met Devenom called today. She had long legs, scuffed boots. The dog has had to get her. go to the vet and the bolognies have been hit by the hail mother that was it whereas bunny was like a full-on you know long yacky conversation did she know that she was filling that role for you yeah yeah completely because when my father tried to shoot me um at mist she's so drunk wait that's just such

that is such a brilliant thing to say no I was 15 I mean I laugh about it now as we'll be here I'd emptied all his Johnny Walker scotch in the scullery and I thought well if I get get rid of all of this, somehow that might stop his drinking for at least a week. And as always, halfway through the 11th bottle, you know, gun at the back of my head, I ducked, went off, ran to the garden, he finally found me. And, you know, I said, I'm going to blow your brains out. I said, you know, go on, do it. Just get this over and done with. Did you actually say that?

Oh, yeah, yeah, I did. I was so angry at this point. And then he pulled the trigger, but because he was drunk, it wavered, so it went straight past. And I fell to the ground and then ran away. and I stayed with Bunny Barnes for a couple of weeks I was too frightened to go back home. And she was, she had no judgment on it. She was, she was just amazing.

And I remember she said, we're going to take this opportunity to improve your classical music education. She said, I want to introduce you to Puccini. So she put Madame Butterfly on the record player, as it was then. And she said, I'm going to have to face away from you because it's so erotically charged. I don't know whether I'll be built.

able to contain myself. So, oh my God, I said, escape my father. And now I might be jumped by my piano teacher. Of course, I've never happened. She had to look away from you. That's so brilliant. Yeah, she said because it's so, so she was, you know, she really took my education in hand, as it well,

and gave me sanctuary in a safe place. Also interesting that she didn't judge your father. I think, you know, when you have got. an alcoholic parent but who you do also love, you would defend them to the end of the earth. Like if somebody else said something back, you can say something about them, but no one else can.

Exactly right, yeah. And I think it's for people who have not dealt with addiction, they find it very hard to understand. They said, well, why didn't you just leave? And I said, well, of course I did when I was finished school. But, you know, you know that the person that's, they become when they're handed the influence is not who they really are. Yeah. And that's the person that you love.

You talked about going back to speak to your mother. Yeah. Because actually you were estranged for quite a long time, weren't you? Oh, decades. Until you were 42? Yeah. It's a long time, isn't it? It's a long time.

Yeah. But how did that go when you went to go and meet her to try and... Oh, when I finally, she wrote me a very long letter after every subterfuge of the psychoanalyst had got me to try to get her to tell her side of the story. And she finally did, instead of being a very short letter, she showed me a very long one explaining what it was like to be a colonial wife in this very hermetically sealed,

snobbish, hierarchical, you know, goldfish-bowl society. And that she had, you know, essentially, she'd fallen out in love with my father and in love with his best friend. So as an adult you can understand that But as a child you was thinking Well I must have done something wrong that I haven't been good enough So I then wrote the equivalent of what had happened to me

Including my father trying to shoot me And she was so appalled by this because she said When I was married to your father he hardly drank So this alcoholic person that I had talked about She didn't really recognise And of course I realised when he was dying Because he told me that he drank for unrequited love from my mother.

She didn't believe any of that. She said, no, I think he's pulling a fast one. I said, no, I think when people are dying, the last breath. That probably suits her. Exactly. She needs to believe. Exactly. I said, but the one thing when I finally went, flew out and met her,

was that you didn't address was what I witnessed in the backseat of a car in July, in 1967, when I was 10 years old. And she took this long pause and then just leant forward like this. and braid a kind of animal sound and she said three magic words, please forgive me. And that was extraordinary because in that moment, of course, that's what you long. You long for as a child or the person that has not taken responsibility for what they've done. So, of course, she didn't know that I had seen this. So it was amazing.

So it completely shifted everything. Didn't change the fact that she was a narcissist because I think you're born like that. But it was, it changed everything, and we started having an ongoing conversation. What did that mean to you? Oh, everything. It was, I didn't think it was possible that you could have a rapprochement with someone. And, but what was interesting is that the power balance of it changed, whereas I had been fearful of her and her disapproval,

suddenly it was, I was the one who felt that I had more power, because she'd asked me to forgive her. And of course, in that moment, you do instantly. So it's like a, what I imagine is like a religious epiphany. You think, well, of course, I forgive you. Because you've taken responsibility for what you've done rather than feeling like somehow you're the one to blame. Because this is a podcast about beginning again,

I'm always really keen on those kind of life lessons because I think that in life, so many relationships go wrong, not just with husbands and wives or partners, husbands and husbands, wife and wives, whatever, but also with friendships over something that had happened, but everybody's too proud to take ownership of their side of it. And actually, those three words, if my mother had ever said those three words,

everything would have been over in a shot. I wouldn't have needed her to be my mother, just the fact that she understood what we'd all gone through. The power of that is so enormous. And you weren't expecting her to suddenly not be a narcissist or be brilliant or be an absolutely fantastic mother. But that was a very powerful moment, I think, and a great lesson for anybody watching that thinks,

oh, how can I change it? You know, we've been at each other's throats for years, but actually owning something and then asking for forgiveness is massive. That's why it's very hard when... And I understand that when somebody dies, that people find it difficult somehow to express or to talk about it.

But the people that I had counted on as being friends who dropped away, I should be forgiving, but I'm incapable of doing so because I judge them and that is probably not a very good thing to do just for clarity we're talking about when Joan died

yeah I'd like to talk to you a little bit about that we're going a bit toxy-turvy but I don't think that matters people will be able to keep up with us you and your kinky boots I love these boots I'm never without a cowboy boo ever ever it's French it's my French side

I can't not wear a cowboy I've been thinking about the power of community lately, thanks to our favourite creative tool and sponsor Adobe Express. You might know it as the quick and easy create anything app from Adobe, but it's also a really buzzing creative network. So the other day, I couldn't get our Begin Again logo to look how I wanted in a dock. So we jumped into the Adobe Express Facebook group, and within minutes, the gang in there came to my rescue.

And there are thousands of business owners and creators in there, all helping each other out. And it's not just design advice and they're not frightening at all. And loads of resources and stories, honestly, it's amazing. If this podcast has taught me anything, it's that starting a new chapter, you know, whether you're creating a logo for your new business idea or just doing a personal project. You know, obviously it's always going to have its ups and downs, but having the right people around you can really make all the difference. So if you're ready to take on your next big thing,

don't be afraid to reach out. It's not scary as you think. There are loads of helpful people out there and they want to help you along the way. So search for Adobe Express to find out more and get the app for free. Want to go electric without sacrificing fun? That's the Volkswagen ID4.

All electric and thoughtfully designed to elevate your modern lifestyle. The Volkswagen ID4 is fun to drive with instant acceleration that makes city streets feel like open roads, plus a refined interior with innovative technology always at your fingertips. The all-electric ID4, you deserve more fun. Visit vW.ca to learn more. SUVW, German engineered for all. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the Orange

one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a Flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon.

When Joan died, the other thing I think is quite interesting is that the British hatred of the word died. Yes. They said passed away, passed on. I hate it. What?

The person died. Yeah, they died. They're dead. It's done. Yeah. We're finished. It's not like passed somewhere. Like, so I think that's quite interesting.

Why do people, why do people feel so weird about that? Like, I don't get it. It's an embarrassment? Maybe we're. Yeah, maybe. We're embarrassed. So I think that's a big thing with the British, that we are embarrassed of death, that somehow it's a bit like talking about cancer.

I mean, you've had a double whammy. Yes. Your wife got cancer. She was sick. Nobody could talk to you about that. And then she died, and nobody's talking to you for you. She didn't want to talk about it. She said to my daughter and I, in the first three weeks when she was diagnosed in 2021,

she said, we cannot tell anybody. And I said, that is an insanity. Because what we have to then go through exactly what I went through with my father, of going, no, no, no, he's in the bath, he's just not home yet. No, he's paralytic. So you're having to lie and cover up. And I think that I'm of the absolute conviction that toxic, that secrets are toxic. They make you sick.

They make everything worse because then you're leading a triple sort of double life. And that when we... My daughter and I said it's too heavy a burden to carry on our own. We have to tell people. We can't lie to people and say,

well, Joan's not here today because she's just having to lie down. Why do you think she didn't want to tell people? And I understand this. She said she didn't want to be defined by... people feeling sorry for her or pitying her or, you know, pitying her and say, oh, and I can't work with her now, she was an accent coach for actors,

because she's got cancer. She wanted to carry on leading as normal a life as possible. And we said, you know, I quoted at her because I was great friends with Victoria Wood. And when she got diagnosed with cancer the first time, I was included in the people that she told. And then, of course, you can give the person all the love and support that you're able to. And when it recurred, she only told a very small number of people. And I heard about her death on the evening news.

And I felt as if I had let her down that I had not been a good enough friend to tell her. And I said to Joan, you know, that feeling of betrayal that I had of just not being good enough for the friendship, people want to show and want to help you. and she had a complete turnaround. I mean, she didn't speak to my daughter and I for a couple of days. She was outrageous. And we told, you know, about 30 people. And the deluge of food that we were sent

and flowers and cars and phone calls and visits completely turned her around. And she said, I see the value of this because it's like a living memorial that you have no real sense of how other people feel about you. until they know that you're dying, and then they show it. And that really lifted her spirits enormously. So she saw the value in it.

I've often thought that's a funny thing, isn't it? How people, I always think you should have the funeral before the death because it's at the funeral where you go, I have no idea you felt like that about it. Well, a friend of mine who had this clothing company called Cabbages and Roses, she did this. A month before she died, she had what she called a few. funeral party and she had 200 people and she's you know every single person she was sitting in a

chair she couldn't really walk easily every single person in her life came and told her how much they loved her and how you know and was very celebrated of course it was emotionally as raw as can be but we could tell her to her face what what we felt about her and I thought that was an absolutely genius thing to do to have done so So telling people and people getting in contact with Joan was all right for her. Joan quite enjoyed that. Oh, quite. She hugely enjoyed it.

She was absolutely buoyed up by it. But then in the last six weeks of her life, she said, I've seen everybody. Yes, quite. I don't like what the steroids have done to my face and how physically depleted I am. I don't want to see anybody anymore. But there were friends that said, we don't care about that.

We're coming to see you once a week and sit at the end of your bed. and to talk. And people are very cognizant of how much, how little energy you have when you're dying. So they would only stay for, you know, 15 or 20 minutes. And I will never forget the people that did that. And equally, we'll never forgive the people that literally fell off the cliff face and didn't come near us. For whatever reason they have, because you can't explain to the person who has.

has died, why they didn't turn up. So I'm contradicted myself with you of talking about the power of forgiveness. But if somebody I think came afterwards and said, I was incapable of speaking to you at the time or come to see Joan, that would be different. But to just disappear is, I can't, I can rationally forgive that, but emotionally I find that absolutely impossible. how are you about that? Yeah, I mean, I had an interesting, my best friend really struggled when I had it,

when I got a brain tumour. Really? And before the op, we had dinner for my birthday, and we both had a good cry. She apologised. She said, I just, I've been a bit lost and I didn't know how to talk to you about it. And I said, I knew that. Wow.

But then that was it, that was done. We were done. She'd said her thing, and then we were fine up. Yeah. Yeah. But that's all it takes. It takes so little. Joan was sick in lockdown, right?

No, she got sick at the end of... At the end of COVID. At the end of COVID. Yeah. It was still... Were there any restrictions on you guys being able to see each other in treatment? No, we couldn't... When she got her diagnosis, our daughter wasn't allowed to come with us

because there were two of us in the room. with the oncologist. So that was a restriction. But no, otherwise... Oh, yeah, and she got an infection at one point and had to go into the Royal Milestone, which is the only time she had to be in the hospital for five days.

And I wasn't allowed to go into the... I wasn't allowed to go and see her. Oh, that's hard. And that was... So, you know, technology meant that we could FaceTime instead. But that was very hard. But compared to people that weren't able to be with their partners or their family when they were dying during COVID, we didn't have that. Thank goodness.

I think that would be really tough. Were you with her when she died? Yeah. She said to me right at the beginning when she got the diagnosis, whatever you do, Suarez, I want you to let us be together right up until the end. And I said, well, Pai Kast promise I would try my best to do that. but with the disease you have no idea where the person is going to be hospitalized or not. But she had palliative carers who came

a couple of times a day for 10 minutes in the morning and the evening in the last two weeks of her life. And then the Longfield Hospice who were absolutely extraordinary Gloucestershire, they sent a nurse to stay with her from 10 o'clock at night till 6 in the morning so that my daughter and I could sleep because of the sleep deprivation that, like a new parent,

that is what wipes you out. And you so need to be able to recharge. And so on the day that she died on the 2nd of September, 2021, I was sitting talking to her all day, as you can tell, I'm not short of a yak and holding her hand. and then I felt that at about 10 past 7, I felt that a hand was starting to get colder. And I thought, this must be the end.

And then at 7.30, 20 minutes later, she died. So I was holding her hand and talking to her whole time. And we'd spoken, you know, she slept most of the afternoon, but, you know, holding hands and sleeping. So essentially a conversation that began in bed in January 1993, then stopped 38 years later on the 2nd of September 2021, still talking and still holding each other's hands.

So, you know, to have had that with one human being and, as you will know from Michael, to be completely seen by somebody else, I think is the greatest gift that you can have. That is the greatest intimacy. When you talk about being seen, what do you mean? That somebody knows

everything about you and that you have willingly wanted that person to know about you and you about them and yet she still surprised me she still had stuff that she would come up with people that she'd slept with that she'd reveal

oh yeah yeah yeah and I go she didn't tell me oh that one it's so great honestly she just so brilliant yeah yeah she was much more contained closed book about her secrets in her life than I was whereas mine

is like a pane of glass you just see everything and so it was good ying and the yang of that but that's what I mean to be seen and the trust that you have in another human being

that is absolute and complete there's no scintilla of doubt about anything you talked a bit about how on both sides of your family with your mom and your dad about lies or dishonesty and how toxic that is.

So in your relationship, that was really, truth was important? Yeah, absolutely paramount. I said that, you know, what? If you sleep with somebody else, I would kill you, and she'd said the same thing to me. Yeah, I think that if you can trust somebody completely, she had been, her first marriage, her husband was, repeatedly unfaithful.

And so, and I think because I'd seen the sort of nuclear detonation of infidelity and the effect that it had on my father, it then meant that both Joan and I placed fidelity on probably a much higher altar or pedestal than he's probably reasonable. So that's a good thing. You both felt the same way about it. We both felt exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah, we were both astonished that people could have open relationships or open marriages.

You know, whatever works for people, but I couldn't imagine that. The idea that you would pledge your allegiance to one person, but you'd have five other people on the side or in the wings. It's just not in my nature to do that. I think, like, what is also interesting, I was with my dad and my sister when I was with my dad and my sister when they died and I felt that was a great honour. Yeah. And I'm so pleased for you that you got to be with Joan. Yes, and it takes the fear away of death.

Yes, well, tell me about that. Because you're with the person and then you hear and feel their last breath and their flesh getting colder in yours and that it felt in our situation incredibly peaceful and a relief and a release that she was. no longer having to deal with all this disease. So I think that, you know, it was an amazing thing. And she was fearful. In the last week, she said, I really am fearful about what it's going to be.

Am I going to just the unknown of it? And I think that, you know, I get that. Being able to talk about that, I think, must have been with you, must have been really nice. Was that the only time that she really did that, or was she quite open about dying? because she seems like a very honest... Oh, she talked about... We talked about it a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. And did you talk to your sister about it? Never. You never did. So was she... She's such a different person to me. I mean... Was she fearful about dying?

I don't know. I was her little sister. Yeah. I loved her so much. Yeah. I couldn't talk to her about dying. I didn't know. She hadn't done a will.

I didn't know if she wanted to be coordinated where. I couldn't talk to her about that. I just, because she couldn't look at, but I felt like I couldn't go there. And she was French, fully French. I'm half French. Yeah. She was like, she'd just be like, no.

Like, if you just asked to do something, she'd just be like, no. Like, shut up. I think my, I mean, there's got, I would like to say one thing. There's one thing that I did that I'm, really sad about she she had lung cancer we've sort of touched on this earlier outside she had lung cancer and secondary brain tumours as well and she was she smoked with impunity right i mean i i i'm

amazed she's she was kept on at her advertising agency job because every time i went to see her she was already outside having a fag she loved it jitaine yeah like i mean she literally loved it but also she smoked tons of pot and this was to basically escape what was quite a difficult childhood in Paris with my mum. Yeah. But like she'd go out with a cigarette packet full of joints, 20, like. And when she found out she had lung cancer, we were holding hands and that it was terminal and that it metastasized.

We were holding hands. She looked at me and she went, I said, Caroline, it's not like that. People that have never smoked get lung cancer. Yeah. It's not that. You know, we were both in cars nonstop, or through our entire childhood with all the windows shut, with everybody smoking except for us.

I mean, like, we, there wasn't, it was just like that, right? Yeah, completely. But I, that stayed with me, and I went back to her house and I chucked out every single bit of weed. She didn't smoke cigarettes anymore, but every bit of weed or hash or anything that she had, I threw away.

I mean, I was clean, so I didn't, I wasn't interested in it, just chucked it out. And then it still smelt, and I found a big lump of hash under her bed. I was like, found it, chucked it out. But then the awful thing was, why did I do that? It was her joy. It was her one joy. She died seven weeks later. I took away the thing that she would have been like out of it and dying.

You know what I mean? Like, why did I do that? Because you're a horrible person. I feel like it. No, don't. It was like... Absolve yourself. It felt like such a weird thing.

Why would... So I'm curious. Even though she wouldn't talk about dying, did she never at any point say, I know that I'm dying or let me go? Never. Because the pallet of people and everything that I've read about it said that it is the most common thing

that people do when they're dying, they ask to be... let go by the family so that you don't try every medical subterfuge to keep them alive. You said, just, I've had it, I've just let me go. And my wife did that. So what I'm interested in with you is that did you say to her when she couldn't speak or could she speak? Oh, no, she could speak right up till the end.

And when she said, two weeks before she died, she said, I know that the end is very near now. She said, please let me go. and my daughter and I said unequivocally absolutely yes of course you have our blessing you don't want them to go but you also know that they don't want for this that way of life to be extended any further this is intolerable it's very interesting those last minutes because I kept just telling my sister that I was going to be okay oh did you I knew she was worried about that like don't worry about me I'm going to be okay like you because she looked after me so much emotionally.

So when you said that to her, what does her reply? There wasn't one because she was kind of put to sleep. Oh, she couldn't talk anymore? No. But I think they said she can still hear. Yeah, apparently hearing is the last sense or whatever to go. Because Joan said to my daughter and I, four days before she died, I know that you're going to be sad, but try and find a pocketful of happiness in each day,

which was a brilliant mantra to bitch to live by. You wrote your book? Yeah. A pocketful of happiness. So tell me what did she mean by that? I think more than anything, she said, I know that you will be sad, but every single one of us, including you two, are going to die.

So without saying it, what is built into that little phrase is don't have any guilt about feeling joy or happiness. after I'm gone. And that has been an amazing thing, not to feel guilt of thinking, my goodness, this Christmas pudding tastes fantastic. But Joan's not here. No, but it still tastes fantastic.

Yeah, to... She gifted you that. Yeah. To really embrace what you have and not, oh, you've got to walk around in a quagmire of grief for the rest of your life. Does that's really good? Speak to the kind of person that she was. Yeah.

Yeah, she's very pragmatic and also, you know, philosophical about that you've got to enjoy yourself. Otherwise, you know, what are you going to be walking around? In widows weeds, widowers weeds for the rest of your breathing days. That's not good either. But how were you after she died? You think, you feel that you're never going to be able to fully breathe again because it's so, you know, it's like an anvil, it's being stuck on your chest

and that you're not going to be able to walk or, I think more than anything, I felt like a crab or a tortoise or a turtle that your shell has been taken off, that you're so vulnerable that you can be just squashed by anything. And you can't imagine that your life can ever normalize again. And people always say, you know,

time will heal or time will tell or all these cliches that come out with. So it's a sort of day-by-day adjustment. I don't, you know, four years on from her death, I don't wake up and think, oh, Joan's dead today, which I had done for so long. And the wonderful trick of memory is that, I don't know whether you've had this, but I've experienced the last six months

a re-calibration of it that when I remember her now I remember her in full health I don't remember her when she was what she looked like and was like when she was ill and if I look at photographs again of it I'm really taken aback

of how altered somebody is by disease have you had that experience with your sister I definitely just think of my sister in rude health In root health, yeah. And how long did it take for you to have that? About probably five years, I would say. Yeah.

And do you feel guilt at all about the fact that you're living and she's not? No. No. I never have. Good. Weren't we lucky? Really lucky. Really, really lucky.

It was interesting you were talking about people who found out hard after they died and how they kind of avoided you. Mm-hmm. I found that really hard to hear. I felt like I was quite lucky in a way. I guess maybe my sister's friends were like contemporaries. But your friends were contemporaries of yours. They were your friends and hers. Yeah, I thought they were friends.

I mean, if people are watching and they're losing someone, a friend or something, what's like these are the things you must do to support, your friend that's going or the partner of the friend that's going. Because what could you have done with? Talk to the person or just, you know, even if you don't know how to say it, if you hug somebody or you just squeeze their shoulder or you do that, and that person knows that you're acknowledging it, I think that that is so simple and so profound.

But crossing the road or... Have you actually had that? Oh, yeah. We had this house in the south of France, we had for 35 years that we spent every summer there. And there was a Swedish couple that we'd known. It had been at every party at our house, every summer we'd been to their house.

And as I walked towards them in the market, I was sorting out my sale of my house. I was about to go, Bonjour. And both of them simultaneously went like that. And I felt like I'd been slapped and punished for the fact that my wife had done. So for whatever reason, I've never seen them since, I never will. But that was an extraordinary thing.

And the other thing that I know that I have done answered your question is that when somebody is dying or ill or in trouble, you instinctively phone them or message them and say, let me know if there's something I can do for you. And whatever? I realize is that you've put all the responsibility onto the person that is suffering it. I've done that. Yeah, I've done it.

Yeah. And then you think, oh, well, if they haven't called me, they obviously want to be left alone. Whereas people who have gone through it, like you have and I have, and certainly a great friend of ours, Nigella Lawson, who had had so much loss in her family, she sent food round. in a taxi every Sunday afternoon that would last for two or three days, which meant that I didn't have to cook or shop for that time so I could be completely with Joan the whole time. And that act of friendship was practical and loving at the same time.

And I will never forget that. So now when I never say, let me know if there's something I can do, you just show up, even if you ring on the doorbell and they don't want to come to the door or somebody comes to the door and said, this is not a good time, or you can have five minutes. That is better than saying, let me know if there's something I can do

and you sort of push the responsibility onto the other person. Just do it, like the Nike advert says. That's what I would say. What would you say the key learnings from your, if you were to do, you know how there's 12 steps in the NA program? Yeah.

I think even Jordan Peterson did 12 rules for life like I mean watching you and seeing you on Instagram you take so much learning from everything that you go through can you give me your like

top five learnings of your life there can never be enough kindness and you know just a simple thing of being polite to somebody or saying thank you the amount of times that

you know somebody writes you a card or has done something for you and you just thank them. That is, it sounds so simple and banal, but I think that that is, that goes a huge, hugely long way. And every message that I've received, and even from total strangers on social media, acknowledging it with, you know, I think you press it and a heart or something comes up.

Yeah. That you acknowledge that you've seen the thing. because everybody wants to be seen and wants to be heard. So if somebody has extended that out to you, I think that to me is worth more than any amount of money. Because at the end of your life, it's not the achievements that you've done or the money that you've made

or the awards that you might have aspired to or have even received or got hold of. it's the relationship that you have with people that you care for and I think that's the only thing that is really sustaining and that I found incredibly helpful that answered your question when you and Joan got together you weren't interested in getting married either of you

no because I'd seen this nuclear fallout with my parents divorce which was so acrimonious, I thought, well, that's what you just don't go near that and certainly don't have a child, put a child through that. So, and because she had got divorced, she felt the same,

that, you know, whatever you do, don't jinx it by getting married. And of course, the problem is with that is that you fall in love with somebody. And I had never had that before. So she was the first woman you fell in love with? Yeah, really. I mean, I thought I'd been,

in love with, because you know, you're infatuated, I lived with people and, you know, had partners, but really falling in love with somebody is that waroped me. Yeah. And she said the same thing. I said, yeah, but you were married. And she said, yeah, but she said, the way that I fall in love with you is different. And I said, yeah, that sounds like a Milsman Boone, no, tagline on a romantic novel. She said, no, no, it's absolutely true.

I mean, I think the interesting part of that is that it's that being seen and being understood on the deepest of levels with you and Joan. It's hard then to imagine you, I mean, I'm not talking about you. I shouldn't really judge you. You can do whatever you like, Richard. I know that you know that. But I'd like to discuss whether you think you think, you would ever go out with anybody again?

How do you feel about that? I've been on sort of dates with people and I've been set up with people. I was just going to say, do you get set up all the time? I have been, I've realised in retrospect, being sort of set up. But I think that when you are ready to do that, something will happen.

But it depends on what you're looking for. I'm not. I don't think on a daily basis, I've got to go on a dating app. I haven't done anything like that. I mean, it would be a bit difficult for you to go on a dating app, wouldn't it? So I, Richard, he got... Old pensioner.

Looking for a dining companion. Oh, God. Amazing. Yeah. No, I get, I get, I've had messages on social media saying, we have everything in common and we should meet. Well, God, did I sound like that when you walked through the door, I was going to go, Richard, you're not going to believe it. You did.

So, you know, I think it's, yeah, I don't know, but I can't, I think the chances of meeting somebody again and feeling that or experiencing that is, I don't know how many times you can, that can happen in your life. So I have no expectation of it, put it that way. But if in a year's time you see me in St. Paul's getting married to the Princess of Transylvania. then, you know, quote this back at me and say, yeah, you're a bit of a traitor. Nothing would make me happier. You're with somebody for 38 years and now you found somebody else.

You don't see that as being a traitor there, do you? Or do you? No, no, I don't think so. But maybe other people do. People judge you all the time. Are you judgmental as a person? No. I mean, I can't be right.

No one's fucked up more than I have. Like, I would. would be really bad. Ladies and gentlemen. But did you think that you were going to, when you fell in love with Michael, did you anticipate that that might happen? Did you ever fantasize that that might happen?

What? That you would fall in love with him. Oh, when we first met? Yeah. No. I mean, I was about to marry my husband. And my life was on that trajectory. He was about to marry his wife.

We both light went off with our. partners and had children. We'd worked together four days a week. We'd talk all the time and... In touch your hair. Yeah, it's just really funny. Like, I just didn't look at him with those glasses at all. So what changed it?

I don't... You don't remember the moment that it happened? It was magic. But once I'd put on different glasses, I couldn't take them off again. Like, I was working with him four or five days a week. We told each of you. other everything I mean this is one of the things that I really really enjoyed

talking to you about is the honesty is that we're just brutally honest with each other yeah we'll just we'll just say everything that's the greatest intimacy you can have with somebody don't you think is I mean the amount of times you have sex with somebody in a day is proportionately unless you're you know doing a tantric seven-hour job and even seven hours if you're If you're doing seven hours a day, it's still not the majority of your day that you are speaking to somebody and connecting with them. And I think trust, my dad always said, I mean, Paul Brunson does a relationship podcast with Flight Studios. And I feel a little bit like I'm treading on his toes here.

I'm going to try and... But this is from my dad, the guy out there in the red trousers. He used to say to me, love is made of full things. friendship you had that obviously in a mega way trust it was like

if you do anything I'll kill you I like that kind of trust brilliant carnal love really important and respect yeah respect is so important because without respect you lose

the carnal a carnal side, I think. You know, if one of them goes, then something else struggles. And I feel all those feels for Michael. I think what's interesting with modern day relationships, and I'd be quite interested

on getting your take on this, is that everybody's looking for a soulmate. This has got to be the perfect person. Yeah. But how do they get what you had? Because that is so rare. When you're in it, you don't, it doesn't seem that it's, it seems, well, why isn't this, doesn't everybody feel this? Yes.

So what is different about it? Because you talking about talking, we've talked nonstop for 38, we talked nonstop for 38 years. Yeah. And I was still talking as I held her hand. Yeah. And she, she died. Yeah. What is the magic ingredient to a great relationship in your opinion?

Curiosity. That you never stop finding or stuff to talk about or things to do or things to want to do with the person in every way. I think that's because as soon as you take stuff for granted, then I think you, you know, that leads to board. order more, this again. The depth of feeling and the trust that you have with somebody after that amount of time, I think that in itself is... Sexy. Part of the heat of your sex life.

That's so true. Don't you think? Rather than thinking, oh, is it the same old position, the same old, you know what I mean? But I think the same old position is with somebody that you don't talk to about, let's try something else. Or why don't we... Yeah. But still fancying the person that you're wish.

Yes. That is something that you have no control over. It's something that if you're lucky enough to have it, which we did, then that's very sustaining. I also think physical attractiveness to somebody in a relationship that you're in with is often also about the other person making an effort. So when I see my partner make an effort, it makes you some, again, feel seen. I think. Yeah. By them making an effort with what they wear,

you think, oh, they want me to see them. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Tell me about, because how did you work after Jonah died? Because I just think going back to work would be very difficult. Well, because my job is I'm on location filming for so much. I'm so used to being on my own or away from.

home, that that was very familiar and that the most difficult part, as always, as I'm sure you know, is what I call the steering wheel stuff that at the end of the day, downloading everything. What was DeVina like? What is her hair color? Do you think she dyes her hair? How much facial surgery is she had? I love that.

What were her boots like? How long did it take you to get to the East End? Four years. All of that stuff that you just talk about. during the day or your observation of it, not being able to tell the other person anymore, I found, I thought, wow, this is like a sort of grand canyon of, you know, it's a bottomless hole. And in exactly the same way that I started keeping a diary when I was 10 and I continued to

do so, I then, I now write to Joan every night. And I have no, you know, woolly spiritual delusion that she's hearing this or that I'm going to get a response. But I know in writing to her it somehow makes, it keeps the connection going because I know what her response would be. Do you write dear Joan? Yeah. So I write emails to her. I mean, I write an email form in a diary, but yeah, dear Joan, and today that this happened, this would really have amused you. I think we should do this. So it's somehow it makes it feel like that person is still there. It's an ongoing conversation.

Sorry, I interrupted you. No, don't. Do you not feel that she's still there? No. She's gone. Yeah. I mean, she's inside me and in my daughter and in the memory of our friends

and I've got photographs of her around the house, but I don't, my father was unequivocal about saying that heaven and hell are human concepts and everything is the here and now. We only have one life. Nobody's come back.

And I haven't been able to find a better theory than that. So I take great comfort from the fact that it is how life has been completed in the same way that all the other people that I know and have never come back. So I have no... I'd like to have had faith that somehow when you die, I'm going to see all the pets and the people that I've loved in some other space. but I don't have any delusion that that is going to take place. And I find that reassuring.

So are you reassured now about the end of your life? Yeah, yeah. And she said to me, would I bury her ashes underneath a chariotry that we've got in this cottage in Gloucestershire? And that's the one thing that I have not been able to do. I've still got her ashes in the box that they came in. they're your sister's sister I can't bring myself to do that

and I know I know that people said well that's her last wish but it might not be her actual ashes I said that doesn't really matter it just that is the last thing that I have of her physically and I just can't bring myself to do that because I think well if I sell this house or there's a rainstorm in the mud

little illogical stuff so I think just better to keep this in the box don't think it's illogical at all Well She asked that they be You know Bad in the Garden But I do understand

I understand you saying If there's rain or like if we sell Like then she's left there But that's That's not practical It's just an emotional You know thing Still stopping you from doing that

Sentimental Old Fool.com Yeah Richard. Devina. What are you doing next? I am going to see a screening in an hour's time of a film that I have to do the post-syncing on. What does that mean?

If there are sound problems on something and you get these bleeps that come across the screen and you have to match exactly what you've said to the dialogue that you've pre-recorded because a plane went over. Oh, okay. They've edited it and taken one word out here, so you've got to do that. What's the film called? It's called Death of Unicorn

with Paul Rudd and Jenna Ortega. And I'm sure you're asking me, in the long term, what I'm doing? Do I have another job? But this is what I'm doing today. Yeah, great. Yeah. But when is it out?

It comes out in April. Great. Yeah. I love movies. Yeah. I love unicorns. then he'll go and see this one. Yes, because they do exist.

Talking about that, I just quickly want to ask you, pocketful of happiness, where are you going to find that today? I've already found it. Great. So I was really hoping you were going to say that. I was like, please, please let me be Richard's pocketball of happiness for today. You are. You are, you are, you are.

I want to be teacher's pet or anything, but it, you know, it's nice. You are. I'm very happy. Cheers. Cheers. And you don't drink either. That's another. That we have. Yeah, well, I basically am.

I mean, if I did, I'd be streaking around here, so, you know, it would be a disaster. They'd all think it was very funny, but it would be a disaster for my career. Yeah, would be. Yeah. That's what my mom used to do. She used to walk around and flush people and I'd look and she'd be naked underneath the coat up. Put the minge away. Put it away, mother.

Yes. Thank you. I mean, I knew this was going to be lovely, but I wasn't expecting it to be this lovely. So, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for being so prepared and informed about my Gubbins. It was a joy learning about you. Thank you. Richard was everything I knew he would be and more really.

I mean that really just felt like a very open and warm and fun and deep and moving chat with a friend. I loved what he had to say about living, about death, about loving someone and losing them, about can you start again? Richard was a joy, obviously, and it's hard to pick out certain things that he talked about because everything that he talked about was perfect. but I think this idea of what being seen means to people and when you find somebody that sees you how special that feels also I really loved hearing about his childhood I'd never I'd never heard about that before how many things we had in common that was quite weird but also handling losing someone you love

He talks so brilliantly and eloquently around that. And it's really nice to meet someone who is not embarrassed or ashamed of their feelings. Yeah, I hope you enjoyed it.