Begin Again with Davina McCall - Spencer Matthews: The Real Reason I Push Myself So Hard...

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Spencer Matthews opens up about the life-defining challenge that forced him to confront fear, trauma, and who he really wanted to become. Spencer shares the story behind Project 7, his mission to complete seven Ironman triathlons across seven continents, and the moments he thought it might break him. From the freezing waters of Antarctica to terrifying encounters in Cape Town, he speaks honestly about fear, fatherhood, and the pressure to prove he’s changed. He reflects on the death of his brother Michael, his struggles with alcohol, and how falling in love made him want to become someone entirely new. Spencer talks movingly about his relationship with his wife, Vogue, and how wanting to be worthy of her transformed every part of his life. Spencer also talks about masculinity, emotional vulnerability, and why pushing his limits helps him stay grounded. This conversation is raw, reflective, and full of insight for anyone trying to rebuild or redefine themselves. Whether you're chasing self-improvement, navigating grief, or figuring out how to begin again this episode will resonate deeply. Don’t forget to like 👍, comment 💬, and subscribe 🔔 for more stories. Click the bell icon to stay updated on new episodes! 🌱 Project 7:  https://givestar.io/gs/spencer-matthews-project-7 Follow us here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  (00:00) Intro(01:13) Project Seven & Breaking Two World Records(09:49) Learning to Show Emotion and Express Himself(19:35) Overcoming Fear and Embracing Personal Growth(25:54) How Spencer’s Wife Vogue Transformed His Life(33:56) Spencer's Journey to Self-Discovery(37:09) Sponsored: Adobe Ad(38:15) Sponsored: Aura Frames Ad(39:17) Losing His Brother Michael and How It Shaped Spencer(47:38) Spencer’s Ongoing Commitment to Self-Improvement(50:53) Struggles With Alcoholism and Finding Moderation(59:12) James’ Place: Supporting Men’s Mental Health(01:04:17) Addressing the Modern Crisis in Masculinity(01:08:50) Inside Spencer’s New Documentary: Am I a Psychopath?(01:10:26) What’s Next for Spencer? Sponsored by:  Adobe - https://Adobe.Ly/OneBetter Auraframes - https://auraframes.co.uk use code DAVINA for £35 off Carver Matt Frames Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There were unusual circumstances surrounding my brother Michael and his death. We certainly felt that his death could have absolutely been avoided. And so I carried a lot of hatred towards people. Marrying an amazing woman who I want to be better for has been very helpful. But I could just see the relationship slipping if I didn't make an actual change. Before you tell me about that, could you just explain to us what you did? Two world record Iron Man attempts and we went from London to Arizona to Cape Town to Perth, to Dubai. Dubai to Rio and finished in Antarctica.

These things make me feel really alive. Cape Town, it was the first time that the challenge felt very dangerous and that it could come to an end. Shock, city, isn't it? Heart thumping, hyperventilating, lost sense in my arms and legs. I was just thinking about my kids. What a stupid way to die. But you know, I've been incredibly lucky to have people that I admire in my own family,

especially at my brothers, Michael and James. I want my family and friends to know that I could handle this. What is your next journey? I think... I love you. Nearly cried. I was so nearly there. And I thought, how can I suppress these feelings?

And firstly, we've got to talk about Project 7 because I... Well, well, well done. Thank you. I mean, what, December the 4th, you got back? Got back just a few days ago. I think we finished around then. Unbelievable. Being back for 48 hours or something.

Unbelievable. I mean, how are you physically feeling? I feel much better than I thought I would. It's not so much a physical feeling, but very proud. And for me, that hasn't always been a given. You know, I've carried a fair amount of shame through my 20s and, you know, regretted a lot of my behaviour. And so for me to be able to express myself in this way, it is really... meaningful to me. It feels like real progress. You know, it's a big difference to where I feel I've lived before. And yeah, I'm just really proud of the team and what we did. I feel, and it's not so much for me to say, but I feel that we have done a really good job, you know, that we did something special, that we've made hopefully a bit of a difference. And, you know, the whole thing feels really,

worthwhile and I'm really happy with it. Isn't that a nice feeling? It's so good, isn't it? I mean, I can't even begin to imagine the level of training and input that you must have had to put in beforehand. Before you tell me about that, could you just explain to us what you did and the countries that you did it in? Sure. So Project 7 was two world record attempts. one being the fastest time to achieve an Ironman distance triathlon on every continent. So seven Iron Man's, we were aiming for 21 days, and then also the fastest Iron Man in Antarctica, as a kind of double-headed thing.

For those that don't know, an Iron Man, a full Iron Man, is a 3.8K swim, which is roughly 40 football fields, followed by a 180K bike, which is a 180K bike, which is a cycle from London to Manchester, followed by a full marathon. And that's kind of, that's back to back as a single event seven times. And we went from London to Arizona to Cape Town, to Perth, to Dubai, to Rio, and finished in Antarctica. And only two people have ever done an Iron Man in Antarctica before. I was the third and the fastest, which is great. You know, actually, it never really, that second record was a bit of a cherry on top, you know, I never really spent too long thinking about that, but obviously nice to have a target and a bit of friendly competition.

I managed to speak to the guy who inspired the whole journey, Connor, Emmany, he's a triathlete from Toronto. And he was just incredible, lovely heart, very kind man, you know, just really helpful, gave me loads of great advice. And, you know, we were, we were. We were, we were doing this for a number of reasons, which I'm sure we'll get into, but it was... Yeah, I want to talk to you. Pretty special time in my life again and, you know, just delighted to be home. Kids surprised me at the airport. Did they?

Yeah, it was an incredible feeling. Obviously, my gorgeous wife, you know, Vogue was doing the jungle at exactly the same time. It was unfortunate timing. We've never gone that long without speaking to each other. Obviously, they take your phone. So not being able to share the experience in real time with her. was quite a strange feeling, kind of you felt a bit isolated. I know you must share everything, right?

You're on the phone to each other all the time every day. So not being able to do that must be so weird. Just, yeah, also, you know, when you have tremendous highs and lows in your life, it's lovely to talk about it with the people you love the most. And, you know, I'm closest to her in my life. And so having that blackout in communication was unfortunate. But also made the reunion that much better. What was that like at the airport?

Oh, lovely. You know, I just... Did you cry? No, I didn't. We'll talk about this. Yeah, I know. It's... My friend Jamie and I had an interesting conversation about crying.

It's not something I actively suppress. I don't do it on purpose. I'm just not... It takes more than a normal situation. I suppose for me to feel a huge amount of emotion. I don't suppress it purposefully. And I don't really know why that is. What was the last thing that made you cry?

I teared up on a number of occasions throughout the challenge when I was really depleted and a certain song came on. A certain song comes on and you're looking at something, you know, incredibly beautiful. And when I did a TV show called Pilgrimage, we learned about a thin space. which is this idea of a moment in time between heaven and earth type thing, like an incredible sunset or a gust of wind that reminds you of someone or something like that. This project was full of those incredible things that you'll probably only ever see once.

You know, like Antarctica being an amazing example. But there was a really phenomenal sunset in Arizona, but like something that you couldn't quite believe was, was happening, you know, Tom Beard, who directed Finding Michael, was documenting this journey with us. And we agreed to kind of climb this hill together early evening, the night before the Arizona Ironman, so that we could get a good look at the, you know, landscape and where we'd be going. And around the time that we got up to the top of this hill, there was a big group of people on top of, you know, this viewpoint that we were off to. And, and quite hard to describe

bit. There was this incredible beam of light kind of cutting through the clouds that was just beaming down into Arizona, but bright, bright orange kind of, you know, pink, orange purples. And then the clouds kind of gradually cleared and it just revealed this insane sunset. And there are people there that go and look at the sunset all the time and said they've never seen anything like it. And it's obviously the only night that we're there, so it felt lucky. And I immediately think about my brother Michael and, you know, sent a picture into the group and family group. And everyone literally was like, that's Mike, you know, straight away because it kind of felt that way.

So that felt like thin space to me. Antarctica is such a kind of threatening but also beautiful place, you know, it's somewhere that you'll see, you know, I'll probably never see it again, potentially. But also very threatening, very, very frightening. there's something kind of tremendous about it. Do you know what I mean? It's very barren

and seemingly dangerous but also very beautiful. Honestly, there's so many moments. You know, there was... I opened my curtains in space. Yeah, yeah. It's good, right? Yeah.

Sorry, you open your curtains. No, I opened my curtains in Puntairenas, which is a stop between Rio and Antarctica and it was just before we left the hotel to catch our flight to Antarctica and opened my curtains and at the time I opened the curtains the sun began to appear from behind the sea horizon

but like out of nowhere. Just the tip. At the very time that I literally, I could have got up at any time like and open the curtains and it was like something out of the Lion King, just the sun just went and I was like, I couldn't believe it because if it was 10 seconds earlier I wouldn't have seen it.

And if it was 10 seconds later, the sun would already be up. So kind of it, curtains, sun. It's like the start of a play or something. Massive, great, big, you know, it was just a... And I remember then thinking, like, what are the chances of that? You know, just like random flight time. So I don't know. There was a fair few moments like that.

And sorry, you asked me when I cried. I think I shed a tear in Cape Town at the end of a really long difficult day. It was probably the first time that the challenge felt very dangerous and that it could come to an end in the water. I felt, I felt a tremendous sense of fear and was overwhelmed with what I can only describe as potential panic. Are you talking about Cape Town here? Yeah, I was in the water at nine degrees. I mean, also it's just shock city, isn't it? Cape Town.

It's in the back of your mind, yeah. You know, I think you have to try and rationalise all of it in real time. And this is something I'd love to talk to you about fear. You know, you can, having experienced it quite intensely recently, it's interesting how it comes into play and how you allow it to affect you. And I think, you know, I've certainly taken some lessons away from how I managed to certain elements of the fear throughout the challenge. Because in that moment, it was game over.

It was kind of you felt like how you might imagine a panic attack to feel. I've been fortunate to have never suffered a panic attack, but sort of felt like a heart attack. And I've read before that panic attacks feel like you might be having a heart attack. And heart thumping, hyperventilating, lost sense of my arms and legs, felt like if the support boat wasn't there, that I certainly could drown. So pretty fear-inducing. And you have to begin to kind of rationalise it and just say,

what, you know, what danger am I actually in here? Because, you know, I'd spent a while panicking about, you know, the idea of being bitten by a shark and stuff that is actually somewhat irrational, you know. Let's be honest, though, Cape Town, the water there, it's not that irrational. I did, don't try this at home. I don't know. If you remember this, it was a TV entertainment program back in the 2000s, I think. and one of the things was to go

Great White Shark diving and we went to Cape Town Yeah I think shark attacks happen but they're not common if you know what I mean That's what I mean by it So you know there's always a chance but also it's unlikely So it's kind of and then you're tackling It was pitch black so not to not to drag it out

But it's black Arrived at the beach at 4.40 in the morning It's everyone's sleeping it's dark Dark, no light of any kind. Sand feels really cold. I'm freezing in my wetsuit, which is unusual. Normally, you're kind of quite warm until you get in the water. Felt cold going into the water, which, you know, again, just doesn't sit well. Our driver had told us about an issue with rabid seals in the area and that they had attacked someone days before. And he was like,

you know, it's probably not a, not a problem. You know, I don't worry about it. I was like, well, of course I'm worried about it. You know, why would you tell me that? And sure enough, I've been in the water for half an hour. Seals start kind of diving over me. And, you know, you can't see anything. So I can feel these things in the water with me. Don't know what it is.

So it's just generally a kind of pretty negative experience where your mind just floods full of dread and fear and you have to, you have no choice but to just handle it, right? So you have to calm down. You can't continue to operate in that space. So you breathe, you think about your kids and nice things and, you know, food that you like, whatever it might be, you know, you just relax and try and try and imagine, you know, a song that you love and just really try and grind it out of your mind.

And then, you know, then I lost sensation in my arms and legs and stuff, as I think I mentioned. And it just, it was a bad experience, you know, got out of the water. And then that just felt, wow, that felt a bit risky for my liking as a father and, you know, a husband. Yeah. I mean, you know, you wouldn't necessarily care so much before. And I've always been a bit gung-ho. But that was, you know, I came out of the water and I was like, you know, why I've put myself in that position, you know. And it felt risky and dangerous.

And then coming back to the tier, we had a nightmare on the bikes in Cape Town as well. Huge headwind, 70 kilometre an hour. Oh, can I just say. Ten hours. In a much smaller way, I had that on my sport relief challenge. Headwind. The headwind. It's the worst.

I was peddling downhill. Yeah, yeah. And I was so angry with the wind. Yeah, yeah. I was screaming obscenities. It's the worst. Just to forgive me a break. I would rather cycle in very heavy rain

than any kind of headwind. Headwind is just... The flip side is that ordinarily you get a tailwind because you go one way than the other, but we had about 140 kilometres into a headwind. We were on the bike for nine hours and 45 minutes. You know, it's just a long old ride, and then you got the marathon to run.

So about halfway through the marathon when I knew that we'd get round, and I knew we'd get around in time. I had an 18-hour cut-off for these races to count the normal cut off for an Ironman is 17 hours they gave us an extra hour because we have traffic lights and you know

hills and stuff to contend with that you probably wouldn't have in a normal race and no I shed a tear then Johnny saw me wait wait there's a witness you're just you're literally just skimming over this I want details so you were running you were halfway through and you thought

I am going to make it yeah what did it where did it start the feeling. I had an old nickel back song playing really loudly and it was quite a kind of old like rock and rolly. Nostalgia. Yeah, just just but like a really cool kind of love song, you know, and I'm my music choice is really lame.

Like I'm super. That's good. Super commercial kind of like I'm not cool when it comes to music at all. But this song just really got me and I kind of started blubbering. And I just loved the feeling of it. You know, as I say, I don't try and suppress these feelings. No. When they come out, it's wonderful.

Yes. I just struggle to be able to draw on them when I would like to almost. And actually, I think there's incredible strength in men expressing emotions and vulnerability. And I think that this challenge in many ways was full of that for me. You know, I think when you're depleted, when you're short on sleep and, you know, been going for hours and hours and hours and, you know, your body and mind really want a break, but you don't afford that for yourself. You just, you just carry on. It takes less, you know, to get you going. And yeah, for me, those feelings are really welcome. I like feeling that way.

I mean, I think it's an enormous release. Yeah. And a really important one because it's real feelings being felt in real time and there's something about what you were just talking about, feeling depleted and you are just empty and unable to fight or to suppress

because you've just not got the tools to do it because you're done. Yeah. I don't even know, you know, I think as I mentioned earlier, I had this conversation with Jamie and he said to me, you suppress your feelings and you, you know, he essentially implied that he felt that I thought that crying was, was weak.

And I don't, I don't think that at all. I just, you know, if I could burst into tears now, I would. You know, I just, I, I don't really know. Don't say that because I feel like that's a challenge now. I'm going to be like, I'm going to be like thumbscrewing you all the way through this interview. I don't know, I don't know, I don't really know what it is. I feel feelings of elation. I feel extreme feelings of joy.

I'm a very happy person. I feel, I feel, I feel extraordinary love in my life. But, you know, I'm not, I'm not a crier, really. I just don't, I don't really do it. And, you know, I grew up in, my father's a very proud Yorkshireman. My brothers were, you know, born up in Sheffield, which I realize isn't fully up in the north. I think it's fair to say that my brothers and dad at least would consider themselves, you know, Yorkshire and Northerners. And we always, you know, just grew up in a, not that crying was negative.

negative or weak just that it wouldn't help you. You know, and that was that was the reality of, you know, I would cry and my dad would say crying crying, crying won't help you. You know, like there's no point in crying. It's not going to make you feel any better, which could be wrong, but you know, maybe it will make you feel better. But I just I grew up in I grew up just and again, I do want to reiterate that we don't, we didn't think it was weak. It just wasn't. It's kind of like it's not going to get you from A to B. Yeah. If you're on your way to from A to B and, you know, you're crying along the way. You know, it's not going to help you get there. Essentially was how it was what I grew up with.

But, you know, I don't regret or resent anything about my life and childhood and love my parents and we have a wonderful relationship. You know, I think it's, that's been slightly misconstrued in the past when I've said that, you know, my father wouldn't let me cry. I think, you know, he was kind of indifferent to whether or not I was crying. You know, it just didn't, I didn't gain anything from it. It didn't get any additional attention. I get exactly what you're saying.

and I get exactly what you mean. I think one of the things that I really like about you, it's funny because I don't really know you that well. We spent three weeks together up in the Alps on the jump, which I loved, you know, so much. And of course it was where you met Vogue and I want to talk to you about that later. But I really like you as a person.

And I think it's all of, I feel like Spencer. You are on an incredible life journey of self-discovery. And you are very open to learning and discovering new things about yourself. And I loved hearing you talk about the fear and how paralyzing the fear felt and how you, you overcame that. But how you were able to identify it and go, okay, this is a thing. I need to get over this thing if I'm going to complete and this is important to me and I want to do that. But what was the run up to Project 7 like

in terms of handling fear? How was your, did that start then in the lead up to it? Yeah, I feared the Antarctic swim for nine months. Really? In a very real way as well. You know, I didn't share it much with people because I didn't want to worry my family. Could you talk to Vogue about it?

I told her that I had some concern, but again, I kind of, I want her too much, right? I want her and my mum and, you know, I suppose women in life, but also, you know, the two main women in my life, but also, you know, the rest of my family and friends to, to know that I can handle this, you know, like I think it's, I think that, you know, worry and fear to me just means. that you're more likely to do the work to get to a place where you're comfortable taking on a difficult thing. Yeah. You know, I think if you don't fear anything, then you're perhaps, you know, not setting your targets far enough. You know, things should feel big and frightening, I think, if, you know, you spoke about self-discovery.

I'm fascinated by personal development growth, you know, becoming the version of myself that I've always wished I could be. I think it's really important. I personally gain a lot from attempting to do difficult things. I think a major point, and there's a massive turning point for me in Project 7, which was completing the Antarctic swim. However you cut that part of the challenge, it's life-threatening, it's dangerous, it's hardly ever been attempted by anyone before for good reason, you know, and you, you know why as soon as you're there. It's overwhelmingly scary. And we had a briefing the night before specifically about the swim and it made it worse.

You know, there was 20 people there, Russian guys, Chilean guys, everyone's super serious, no sense of humor whatsoever. Seven leopard seal spotters, two boats, you know, a person. Why leopard seals? Talk me through the leopard seals? Leopard seals are... Is it savage? Yeah. So again, there haven't been a huge amount of leopard seal attacks on humans, but humans are

very rarely in the water in Antarctica. So there have been... They probably have been... There have been deaths by leopard seal. Apparently they come at you from the side and they drag you onto water to, you know, as fast as they can to drown you. And they're big apex predators. They weigh between, you know, 300 and 600 kilos.

Big, big, huge... You know, they're nine times the size of me in terms of weight, right? So one of these things gets a hold of you, good luck. You know, you're gonzo. Yeah. Big, they kind of appear like a, like a big dog, you know, like a really sharp tooth, aggressive thing. I'm sure they're also probably just curious animals that, you know, perhaps take a bit of a negative turn if they feel like it. But, you know, you're in their world here.

Yes. And so as well as the zero degree water that you'll be in for between an hour and a half and two hours, and the very serious threat to actual dangerous wildlife, your mind, if allowed to, will just wander into all kinds of hell, right? And that's before you're even in the water. So you have to take a, again, a kind of logical view on what's happening. A lot of trust gets placed in the kit.

I had the choice between a wetsuit that would keep me warm in kind of six degrees in which I'd be able to. to swim fast or a bigger, more heavy-duty wetsuit that would almost certainly make the swim a massive struggle, but I probably wouldn't be that cold. I opted for that just because, you know, going hypothermic at that stage in the day would be a big problem for the rest of the day. And, you know, the night before it, I was in all kinds of, you know, in negative headspace. It was just, it felt dangerous, unnecessary, stupid, foolish, risky. I was just thinking about my kids. I was like, you know, what if, what if I actually do get taken by one of these things? What

what a stupid way to die, right? Like nobody's forcing me to be in this water. And, and then, you know, at the risk of sounding overly confident or even arrogant, which I hope it doesn't come across, you have to remind yourself that you're the guy, you know, for this, you know, I know, I can do it. You know, look at what's been achieved in the last 19 days. This This is the person I've always wanted to be. You know, of course it's going to be hard, but don't be too surprised. That's why we're here. You know, and be calm and focused one stroke after the next and just handle it.

You know, if you're not going to handle it, nobody's going to handle it for you. And you can choose to suffer for two hours worrying about all kinds of stuff. Or you can just try your absolute best to be calm. And that's really hard. How have you become this guy? I've no idea. Marrying an amazing woman, who I want to be better for, I think, has been very helpful. Oh my God.

I've always wanted to. No, but genuinely, the person I used to be isn't good enough for my wife. You know. I believe I watched you two fall in love. And it was clear as clear as day. I saw you laughing together. and standing next to each other and supporting each other

and I saw you see something in her that it felt like you'd never seen in anyone before. You were like looking at her in wonder. Like, wow, there are girls like you? Like, he's so real and funny and naughty and hot and like all the things like that would be good for you, like honest. She's honestly, you know, I don't mean to sound overly soppy.

She's got it all, you know. She's a very special person and she lights up rooms that she walks into. She's immensely popular. She kind of, I've never met anyone really that doesn't immediately warm to her, you know, incredible sense of humour. And very beautiful. And you only have to spend, you know, a few hours with her around her kids to just see what a special mother she is as well, you know, completely selfless.

and very special. And I made a very conscious effort to become better when I first met her. In what way? I had big problems with alcohol. You know, I was, I think you'll probably remember on the jump. I was a very heavy drinker. My bar bill at the end of the jump was like nothing short of astounding. I spent the majority of my fee, I think, on the bar bill.

I was pretty generous back in the day as well with everyone. I was like in order to entice people to drink with me more, I would just pay for everything. And I hope the generosity has not changed too much, but I drink an awful lot less, so it's far less expensive. But I essentially, I went sober for her initially. It then immediately almost became for me as well. I just wasn't, I had no idea the profound impact that that would have on my life. But initially it was, you know, I don't mind saying for her. Not at her request, by the way.

I could just see the relationship slipping. I could see that she would lose interest in me and, you know, put me on some scrap heap somewhere if I didn't make an actual change to my own health. In a way, it's like she triggered an awareness in yourself of you and your behaviour. and an awareness that if that didn't change, you might lose the thing. But that wasn't you before it. You were just kind of plowing through life, enjoying yourself slightly on self-destruct with the alcohol. Yeah.

I think it was the fear of losing her was quite real, whereas, you know, I hope I'm not offending anyone. But I've never felt that before in previous relationships. You know, I was quite selfish. And I would do, you know, I'd go out and drink and stay out all night and do whatever I want. really and you know if it didn't work it didn't work and that was that you know I've never considered marrying anyone but Vogue thoughts never crossed my mind you know and I was young obviously and you know I'm not sure all the Made in Chelsea stuff helped me much you know it was all quite thought it was fun for a while and then really kind of begin to almost hit

self-destruct on purpose you know for like you know to dramatize situations and obviously that sticks with you for a while so that's a big part of what I you know like to try and put in the rearview mirror. You know, I describe that person as my former self just because I've got nothing in common with him. It is quite mad looking at you now. And I felt like the change started happening on the jump. I could see you.

I don't know, you felt a bit different to Maiden Chelsea Spencer to me. I went a bit, I went sober for two weeks before the final. So just, you know, I was drinking very heavily. when we were in Innsbruck. Yeah. And then when I made the final, I thought, let's give this a really good chance. I'd love to win this. You know, I'm naturally quite competitive and went home and didn't drink.

And by then, Vogue had injured herself. So she was in hospital. And I would go and visit her every day. And, you know, we'd spend time together. And she joked that, you know, if I won, that she would go out with me. And I said, okay, great. That's why you won. Yeah, well, you know, I'd like to think I would have won anyway.

But anyway, it was, it was in the back of my mind. I was up at the top of the ski jump. Louis Smith, bless him, who probably deserved to win. You know, he was a fast superior athlete to me and won absolutely everything in the lead up to it. You know, I basically won nothing until that final jump. He did 21 metres or something. And Graham Bell, I think his name is,

on the thing. It was like, Spence Matthews knows, he's either going to crash or win, you know, type of thing, because I had to give it, you know, I don't jump 17 meters. something before so I had to really go for it. Did it, knew that I'd won, like, in the air, just because I popped off this thing and really enjoyed it

and landed quite far and I was just, I was really excited, you with that, Aaron. I've got goosebumps. It was amazing. It was such a cool moment. I loved that show for a number of reasons. It was amazing. And one in the end, obviously, and the rest of history.

We've been together, you know, ever said, we've been together eight and a bit years, possibly even longer. And probably one of the biggest. adventures of your life, right? Yeah. What, marriage? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely. It's, and you know, I hope I'm not coming across as like we are, you know, we have the perfect relationship because I don't think that exists. But one thing we are is, I think, proud of each other. We love each other. We support each other. We, of course, have our moments like every married couple, particularly with three young kids, you know, it can be quite exhausting.

but but I do believe our relationship is is you know is special I feel very fortunate to be in the position I'm in with her I'm really proud to be her husband you know which I think is a wonderful thing she lights me up you know and I love it you know one of my most favorite things and in fact it is a comment that we have had on this podcast a lot when we've had other men on here Richard E. Grant came on and talked about his little life. I love him. In the most wonderful way. But to hear, I mean, without blowing smoke up your ass, you know, like you are a proper man's man and you live a sort of man's man life and you go and do these big challenges. And yet here you are saying these wonderful things.

And rather than being seen, I think what's nice is for other men watching to see this as a strength, you know, not a weakness, to be your partner's cheerleader and to support them and to, it is a strength, not a weakness and it's so nice to see a man comfortable enough

in his own skin. Well, thank you. To be able to do that. It's just the truth. And look, I know that it's, you know, marriage can be a difficult thing and, you know, I'm not here, not here, you know,

about my happiness, hopefully. I just, we're lucky in many ways and, you know, I'm just, yeah, I'm very proud of her as well. I think she's a very special woman. I know, I can't say it enough. No, but I think the other thing I think in life, and I, again, it's something that I see in really successful relationships is when you can be each other's cheerleader. and sometimes if there's competition in a relationship where someone is maybe a bit jealous of somebody else's success or they wanted that in their own lives

or they're somehow not happy in their own life then they can't cheerlead their partner and there was an element of competition I think at some point in our relationship when we first were getting going because I think at the time we did a very similar thing as well we had a podcast together and so you're kind of

as well as trying to make a good product, you are sort of competing. You know, we did an awful lot together. We had a TV show together, then a podcast together. And I've actually found it's been far easier to be fully behind each other with less on our professional plate that's together. Yeah, with our own directions and our own careers. We want different things and we weren't, that wasn't clear to begin with. We kind of, I used to want to do a lot more in TV and she's always wanted to be a television presenter, but that was sort of in the back of my mind.

And it took the 30 marathons in the desert last year for me to really understand who I want to be. Yes. You know, and just, and it was a wonderful realization. You know, I had a few little things going on that were, you know, semi-successful in entertainment. And I just realized I don't really want to entertain. I'm not a comedian. I'm not an actor. I'm not a singer. I haven't got discernible kind of talent in that space. I'm just, I've done a bit of TV and, you know, hopefully I've made a few people laugh from time to time, but who am I? What is it? I'm really enjoying watching you on that journey.

Why? I think it's so important. And this is what you're putting on television. It's like, I'm watching you find out who you are. Tom. Tom. And it's brilliant. Tom. Tom. beard at the very beginning of documenting Project 7 said, why are you doing this? I said, I can reel off three or four reasons that I think I'm doing it, but I think that will become clear when we're out there. You know, I think it's for such a simple question, it's a really hard question. Yeah. You know, it's because it's easy to look at something like Project 7 and go, you know, why.

It's not a, it's very hard to answer that question. And things started coming to the forefront of my mind during it that I found really interesting. But it's, you know, again, your podcast being called Begin Again is really interesting to me. You know, that's something I feel like I've done a few times. You absolutely, that's why you're here. You recreate yourself and you constantly try and change and grow and be better. which is why I'm so happy we're here talking. The one better guide from Adobe Express says

if you want to get fresher social ideas, get outside, go somewhere different. So with the help of our sponsor, I need fresh ideas on how to fix this video. Are you any good at TikToks? I'm Ollie and Annie Pecking and being outside nature beats any brainstorm. Get inspired by the sounds,

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So I'm going to give her her own aura frame. Don't tell her. I think it's hard when you're on the other side of the world or in a different country. know when you're not with your family. So I hope this is really going to help her and remind her a bit of how much we love her. Oh, I look quite pretty. They're all of me.

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You are on this great path now and you were just talking about your brothers. Would it be all right to talk about Michael? Of course, yeah, pleasure. You were very young. You were, what, 10 when Michael died? Could you just talk us through how big was the age difference and how did it happen? Michael was 12 years older than me. He was 22 at the time of his death.

and he was the youngest Brit to reach the summit of Mount Everest which is a stat that he wouldn't have cared about but I like saying it you know very difficult for me to have a full character assessment of him being 10 but as I understand it he was a very modest

kind not quiet but you know probably a fair amount more reserved than me but a very beautiful soul you know good looking young man very successful in his own right early on, you know, just very good at anything he did. And on all count, quite a quite a special boy, I suppose, we should call him, you know, 22. You know, there were there were unusual circumstances surrounding his death.

I think it's fair to say. We were, we certainly felt for a long time, although we were never able to prove. anything that his death could have absolutely been avoided and the only reason we would ever think anything like that was just the sheer amount of people that told us that who were there. We're not the kind of family to seek justice or revenge for an accident. Obviously climbing Everest is a very difficult thing to do. You are risking your life and had it just felt like a mistake on his part or an accident, that would have been the end of it.

It wasn't. It was, you know, that there was certainly, you know, many reports of things being done in a way that where his death could have been avoided. You know, problems with the oxygen tanks, not enough oxygen on the mountain, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I kind of grew up, obviously, not at the age of 10, but, you know, by the time I hit 15 or was old enough to drink regularly, I absolutely did. And nobody ever forced me to drink. and took me a while to actually couple the two things together. You know, I'd spoken to some therapists who absolutely believe that my excess for drinking could have been certainly in part

due to trauma suffered at a young age and not processing it. I was always slightly uncomfortable with coupling those two things together because I, you know, I enjoyed drinking to excess. Nobody held a gun to my head. And I wasn't always thinking about Michael and the potential injustice of, Is injustice a word? Yeah. I suppose you know what I mean of the situation.

But worse than that, there was kind of a, there was, you know, blame, I suppose, attributed in it all. It didn't feel like a mistake. I think if your loved one got hit by a bus, you know, you're not going to necessarily blame anyone in the situation. I carried a lot of resentment and I carried a lot of hatred towards people. at quite a young age and probably felt like my pain was worse than yours. So I developed a kind of lack of empathy quite early on for people's problems. I've never been, I've never felt like an empathetic person. And I wonder if it's because when something, you know, terrible happens to you like that,

do you just become slightly shut off to other people's pain because you feel like you've gone through it or not. I don't know. I've actually not spoken about that to a trained professional, so I wouldn't know, but it kind of makes sense to me. Yes, I mean, it's interesting because you were young when that happened. And so you're processing something as a young person, potentially without help from an expert or a psychologist, and somebody else comes along and says that they're hurting or something, but you're like, you don't even understand the half of what I'm going through. this is the worst kind of pain imaginable. I totally understand that.

But also it's a slightly it's a slightly juvenile way of looking at it because of course all pain is subject, exactly, but all pain is obviously subjective and deeply personal and everyone, you know, listening to this has probably lost someone in their life, right? So my situation is not special. It's just I'm trying to understand, you know,

why I turned out a certain way, you know. I think what's interesting is that you'd explain, you know, it's a juvenile way of looking at it. But you were young when that happened and your brother died and it was under mysterious circumstances. And that is a, that is fucking tough. Excuse my language. You know, that is, that is traumatizing in life. I never dealt with it really because I never truly believed it at the time firstly because he was a... What, he might come back.

Yeah, he was a huge hero to me. I was very young. I didn't, I didn't believe it when I first heard it. You know, my parents told me he's gone missing on the mountain, you know, and then subsequently that we probably won't see him again.

And I just thought, what a letter rubbish. I didn't believe it for a second. Then, of course, nobody at the memorial again. Like, you know, where is he? And then, of course,

you grow out of these feelings that you'll see him again, obviously realizing that you definitely won't. You know, I have lived a, a life of extraordinary privilege. But, you know, I'm trying to put myself in difficult positions a lot of the time to really understand.

And that came out in my feelings during Project 7 was that, you know, is it because I've had Michael aside, you know, a very lucky, easy life, shall we say, that I enjoy the pain? Because I do. I like it. Like, genuinely, I enjoy, when the challenge was going pear-shaped and when it was rough as hell, I would come alive then. And I thought to myself, I love this feeling. You know, it's exciting and it feels good because it's, you know, personal trauma or, you know, my brother's death aside, I have had an easy life. And I think it's nice to rough it up a bit sometimes.

You put yourself, you take yourself out of your comfort zone all the time. And you are disarmingly honest. And you have got a lovely relationship and we can kind of all see that. And you are a great dad. And it's almost like proving to proving to everyone. I'm not who you think I am. Like is there a feeling of like needing to show? show people, this is me, or is it just you on your own journey of self-discovery, mostly?

There's been a shift in that. There was probably a conscious effort before, less so now. I think the distance between my former self and me now is such that that's no longer necessary for me to really think about. And in fact, I started dropping it a bit when I've been doing press around Project 7 because it makes less and less sense to me. This whole, you know, I want to be different to how I use it because I am different. So I don't need to keep talking about it.

It's been a long time now, right. It's been ages, yeah. And, you know, I think I'm very, I'm very much in my own lane. You know, I play, I pay, I pay very little attention to my competition, really, if there is any. And I focus almost, you know, all of my time outside of family on, on work and career and how I can be better. you know, better at making money, better at getting better deals, better at raising money, better at challenging myself, better at being a good father, better, you know, it's, it's a positive experience to try to develop, you know, I think if we look at the drinking

as well, like I used to drink probably at my worst when I was bored, you know, like between TV shows, I wouldn't go and meet my agent and think, right, what can we be doing? How can we make more money? How can we, you know, better what was it? I would just get pissed. Yeah. You know, and wait for the next opportunity to come my way. And in reality, it doesn't really happen.

You might get lucky every so often and something just falls in your lap, but not really. You know, that doesn't, that doesn't tend to happen. And I certainly feel, you know, that when you make a conscious effort to be, you know, sober, fit, you know a good father a good husband things tend to go better in your life there's a direct correlation for me yeah with drinking page one of a of a self-help book that exact phrase that you just uttered there is it it's it's it is funny you know that I don't want to say the universe rewards you for you know because I honestly I have no idea I think like you're right I have no idea how these things work, right? But when you, when I make an effort and I try, nice things

happen, you know, and if I'm on holiday and I decide to, you know, like day drink a bit and, and, you know, take my foot off the gas, then things slow down, you know, and it's as simple as that really. I don't know. I'd really love to talk to you about when, what's the moderate, moderate drinking? Like moderation. Moderation. Yeah. So like this is a really interesting and important thing for people to be able to learn to do. You can go from drinking a lot to moderate drinking or do you, in your opinion, would you have to stop?

How did you start drinking again and what made you realize you could? Hmm. It's, it's, I think if you are, if you have my kind of nature, call it an addictive nature, um, or an alcoholic nature or whatever you want to call it. There's always, it's a slippery slope. Always will be. I think the difference is, um, responsibility and, you know, all of the good work that you do. Yes.

I think, you know, me going out and destroying myself for days on end is going to get in the way of my business, it's going to get in the way of my career, it's going to get in the way of my marriage. It's going to, you know, it's not a good example for my children. I think having kids makes quite a big difference. You know, my kids have never seen me drunk, you know, and they never will, hopefully. I had a lot less on. I had a lot of turbulence in my mind before. I was lazy as well. I didn't, I didn't try.

I didn't push myself. I didn't have the aspirations I have now. You know, before Vogue and kids, I was pretty loose, you know, I was just spiraling kind of all the time. And you think it's fun, but it's not, you know. And I think, you know, have firstly what we spoke about earlier, you know, wanting to show up for Vogue, wanting to prove to Vogue that I wasn't some, you know, drunk, loose. loser was important to me. Then, you know, I wasn't sober for long before starting a business. And then all of a sudden, your plate's kind of full and you're busy. So you don't even really feel like drinking much because you have a new addiction in my case then. You know, I was, I fell

hard into startup land. I loved it. Was that clean? Yeah. I loved it. I just, and I still love it, of course. I'm talking in the past tense because that's when we started it in 2018. And I just, I just, I fell head over hills in love with that instead, you know. Can you just explain to anybody watching or listening that doesn't know what Klinco is? It's an alcohol-free spirits company. So we make gin, whiskey, rum, tequila, vodka with no alcohol. Which sounds... Drinks your gin.

Oh, does he? Oh, thank you. Well, I should send you some. It's... It might, you know, to somebody that's never heard of an non-alcoholic spirit, maybe you might be thinking, what's the point? It's... It gives you that kind of ritual of having an alcoholics.

alcoholic drink without drive. Yeah. It's like... If you're pregnant or something like that. And now, you know, they really taste pretty good. You know, we've got new stuff coming out as well. In the new year that is... What?

Like what? Just new formulas. But they're pretty special, these ones. These ones are potentially problematic because they taste so good. Yeah. Like genuinely, like I tasted the whiskey. I myself was like... Are you sure it's not?

I feel like I'm having a whiskey at 9am in the... thing, you know, which I think the liquids were never quite that's good, you know, so you didn't quite have that placebo effect. That's why I don't drink non-alcoholic. You shouldn't touch the new stuff. Well, I mean, I don't even touch the oil because there's something about non-alcoholic gin for me. Yeah.

That's a bit triggering. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I can't. But I've got loads of friends of mine that aren't ex-drinkers, big drinkers, alcoholics, who love non-alcoholics. alcoholic alcohol or non-alcoholic drink because they can have one drink and then continue to sort of look and feel like they're having a drink but they're not. Yeah, it's it kind of felt like something that needed to be made to me years ago.

I had a kind of big lightning bolts. We were second ever to market behind Seedlip, yeah. And we're the leading independent brand in the world now. Thank you. And it's been an extraordinary journey. You know, we've attracted millions of pounds, tens of millions of pounds of investment from incredibly serious funds and people and funds that don't even invest in consumer products have invested in us because they love it so much.

And, you know, it's been an incredible journey. And again, with that came responsibility to not be out drinking and being drunk, right? And then you have children and then it's all layers on top of, you know, each other. I think if I was the kind of person that now went out and had a couple of pints of beer and couldn't stop, then I wouldn't have the beer. You know, I'd just, I'd have the experience to just go, what's the point in any of this? The fact is I can have the occasional drink. Sometimes the occasional drink leads to several drinks in a night. But, you know, my relationship feels more normal now.

Yes. You know, and I think I read Dr. Anna Lemke's book called Dopamine Nation, which was just a fascinating. fantastic if you've not read it. Oh, I haven't. So thank you. Oh, it's wonderful. And it's quite, you know, it's, um, it's, it's neuroscientcy, but it's also an easy read. Yeah. And it's not that you need, not, no, but honestly, right up my street. For me, I mean, you know, I'm obviously not a scientist. So for me, uh, it was a welcome read because I, I was so fascinated by it that I flipped

through it in kind of no time. And, uh, it's all about kind of, um, you know, spikes in dopamine and how toxins and alcohol make you feel, but actually the result of what drinking actually does to your brain. And, you know, I think the more educated I've become about it, the less keen I am to be involved with it in that big scale anyway. This is alcohol, I mean, because realistically, and I'm sure I'm not ringing any alarm bells here, it's really bad for you, you know,

and I'm very interested in my health. So, you know, in the same way that I'll have a fried chicken sandwich every so often, I might also have a beer every so often. It's not a very big deal to me. And if it did feel like a big deal, I would stop. So, you know, I am conscious of it, though, like very conscious of it. Yes. And I wouldn't ever want to threaten where I've got to.

And I don't mean that in a kind of success scale. I just mean so much good work has been achieved in the last few years. And I know that, you know, drinking could destroy that if I let it. So I think just being aware. of it has been helpful. I love not drinking. Yeah. No, I also love stint of variety.

Yeah, I mean, I would say that you don't drink really, like, but I love not. I love, I love it. And it's funny, I got my liver checked. This morning is part of kind of my annual health check, liver of an 18-year-old. Like, I'm just like, ha-ha-ha-cha-ching. Delicious. I'm like fascinated by this kind of idea of semi like just being able to have a couple of drinks though it's really interesting that and what's really nice about it is it's not making me think

oh you could do that I think for the first few years of not drinking I really missed it but it's been decades now and I don't miss it at all Yeah, I think... It's become habit to not drink. For me, I'm still discovering bits and bobs about it. I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up completely TOTTAL, to be honest. I don't see an issue with it, but I think it quite easily could be. You know, I need still stints of extended periods of time off it.

So can't wait for January. I'll do three, four months without a single drop. You know, then I'll probably have a few. beers in the summer and then I'll go off again. It's, it's, it's, I try not to think about it too much. It's not, it's not really in the forefront of my mind ever. I don't walk past a pub or a bar and go, I'd love a drink, you know, which I'm, I think I'm quite lucky, you know, in that regard.

But alcohol is a truly destructive thing for me and I haven't forgotten that. Yes. You know what I mean? It's quite a good memory to have, really. I think, you know, it's like if you've ever been really hurt by someone, you know, you might choose to move through it, but you don't forget it. Yes. Same thing with alcohol for me.

You know, I'm fully aware that if I allow myself, oh, yeah, like, you know, I'm just not going to drink Monday to Wednesday, but, you know, Thursday to Sunday, I'm going to be, I'll be, I'm so dangerous. See you later. Yeah. I'm gonzo, you know, so I just need to be conscious and careful around it, I suppose. But, you know, I have to say that it doesn't feel like a current issue. You know, I'm not, I'm not walking around.

wandering if it's safe. I, to be honest, don't really think about it. I think what's interesting as well about alcohol is that what a depressive it is and can be. And, you know, you were talking earlier about James's place and that that was who you were raising money for on this massive seven triathlon mental kind of trip that you've just come back from, but you were raising money for this amazing charity. Could you just tell us a bit about that? I'd be an honour.

I feel so lucky to be able to be in a position to go and do Project 7 to raise money for these people. James's Place is, without question, an incredible charity. They save lives in real time. They have a near 100% success rate for saving a man in suicidal crisis if they come through the doors. it's it's I couldn't believe it when I was sat with them and they were telling me you know the stats about suicide in this country I think masculinity firstly is in is in kind of turmoil at the minute generally but in this country you know genuinely and I'll talk about masculinity if you like in a bit as well I'd love to they save men in suicidal crisis through unique and professional conversation that is specific specific specifically tailored to allow men to understand that that's not the only way, you know, out and that they can live a better life.

And, you know, if you're 35 years old or under in this country, the most likely thing to kill you is yourself, which is when Claire Milford Haven, whose son was James, told me that on Untapped, I, I, I, it's it completely just, you would never think that. I don't think anyway. I would certainly have never guessed that the most likely thing to kill me is myself. You know, you'd almost certainly assume it was an illness or, you know, a road accident or, you know, but it's... So the fact that that is, the fact that that is a reality is such a shame because they are proof that it's preventable. You know, not in all cases, obviously, but... The majority of suicide cases, they feel, could be prevented. You know, if only men knew where to turn or who to talk to.

And another shocking stat is over 50% of men who killed themselves didn't seek any help at all. So didn't tell their loved ones, didn't tell their family, didn't tell their mum, you know. It's just, I'm a father to two sons. It's actually making me feel a bit emotional now. I'm father to two sons. If one of my sons took their own life without ever talking to me about it, like imagine the pain that you would feel. It's, you know, that you weren't able to help. You didn't even know about it.

So a lot of this goes on, you know, somebody takes her own life every hour in this country just about. And, you know, the idea behind Project 7, I think, is that we want to raise funds to pay for the therapy, but we also just want to raise as much awareness as possible. You know, if somebody is considering taking their own life, just please call James's place first. You know, just explore that as an option, you know, because it's, it will save your life, chances are. And, I mean, I was just thinking then, the problem is, I think, when somebody gets to that point, they don't want someone to save their lives. But I do feel like it's worth saying that it would just be a conversation with a person before, you know,

you think of doing that thing that just maybe even just talking to somebody might be a nice thing to do because they must be so good at that. Yeah. But even just the idea that reaching out... These poor men wouldn't talk to anyone.

Yes. So what is the crisis you would say that we're going to talk about masculinity? You know, we really have done so much work for equality but men seem to have lost themselves or something of themselves, their identity in this kind of process. What can we do as allies, women, to help?

Well, I mean, I'm sure there's better people to speak to you than me. I personally don't think that women becoming stronger means that men have to become weaker. No. You know, and I hate the divide that's been created between men and women. You know, why is there so much hatred towards women from young men online and why is there so much hatred from women to young men? Like, you know, all of these clips of women saying, we don't need men and, you know, men are useless and then men responding by saying, you know, women are shit and, you know, we're strong. It's all, why are women and men opposed to each other generally? I think men are going through a complete identity crisis.

I think that, you know, there are all kinds of ideals that are pushed on men via social media via very toxic voices, you know, the Andrew Tates of this world who are preaching to young men that they have to be strong, rich, you know, like, and almost, you know, misogynistic in order to be respected by women. Yes. Whatever happened to just kindness, just be kind. But that's why is people, men like you, in the public domain, speaking the way that you do, are so important. But, you know, but no woman is going to appreciate being treated like shit. No. Right. So that's creating a divide.

All of these voices that are, they're incredibly toxic. I find myself on social media from time to time and I see these videos and I just think, like, how is this not censored? You know, and also I just saw that in Australia you now have to be 16 to be on Instagram. Thank God. Like, why is that not a thing? I know. Like, the idea that my sons will be on Instagram or anywhere near it at a young age frightens the shit out of me. And, you know, even in some cases they may, you know, catch the odd Andrew Tate clip and it might influence them and they may not even tell.

I might not even know, you know. And all of a sudden it's really problematic. And to be honest, I don't have any answers other than to try to set a better example myself through positive action. You know, I think Project 7 as an example displayed, you know, strength, weakness, vulnerability in my own way. You know, and this isn't some assault on Andrew Tate or whoever else. But I just, I don't, I don't really understand. Even the logic behind that kind of messaging. I'm not,

I'm not sure where it's coming from. It's full of hatred. And it's really dangerous. And I'm assuming that they know that. So it's, I don't know, I find it a bit confusing as a father. He's a father.

But, you know, I just think it's a real shame. And in an ideal world would be ignored. But it's, it's completely the opposite to that. It's everywhere. you know, I'm not sure if you watched adolescence, but just what an amazing show. You know, like I love Stephen Graham anyway, but I'm just fascinated by it and just raised so many interesting questions about what are on phones.

And, you know, I just think it's, it's the world we live in today, not to dampen the mood is pretty frightening for a parent, I think. Yes. And for young boys and girls. It's terrifying. I mean, that's why, you know, you. you talking the way that you do. And Michael, my partner, he is amazingly vocal and kind and loving about me on his Instagram or on his lives. And, you know, we can see men and women responding well to that because it's nice to hear men being emotional or feeling. I'd like to talk to you a little bit about that

because you brought up earlier about not crying but I've listened to you talking throughout this podcast with great emotional intelligence I feel and yet you've done this really rather brilliant documentary for Channel 4 which will be out soon I think when is it out? Are you talking about the psychopathic? Yeah.

Soon I'm not sure Sarah's just though I'm not sure what we can say But yeah, I think it's already news, isn't it? That, yeah, am I a psychopath? We'll be coming to Channel 4 quite soon. We're still filming. Which I think, and maybe you can't talk about it too much, but even the idea that you would ask that question

is like mind-blowing to me, because it's like, what? You're going to do a documentary that potentially at the end could go, yeah, actually, I don't see you are. And I'll be going, I'm sure he's not. You know, he's a very, very nice boy. I think the, without too much detail maybe, is that it's the idea that that condition isn't necessarily dangerous. Yes. That's interesting.

And just that, and, you know, just, I'm actually not sure how it will come out. You know, I think lots of people have some traits. There are 14 in total. Most people have some. You know, I'm sure I'll fall into that most people category. I'd be surprised if I came back full blown. But let's see. I am quite interested to find out.

Like, where, I remember when I did my sport relief challenge in 2014, and everybody kept going to me, so what's next? And I was like, well, you can fuck right off. It's everyone's favourite question. Right? Like, I'm going to bed. Yeah, yeah. I'm not doing anything.

Like, I'm going to go on holiday and sunbathing. for the next six months. Shut up. I'm not doing any other challenges ever in my life again. And so I just wondered like apart from challenges like what

do you want to discover about yourself next or what is your next journey into life? That's a good question. I thought you were going to ask what the next challenge is like one else.

Don't want to know. Yeah, I actually don't. I actually don't know, obviously. I think at the moment I've changed the team around me a bit after the desert stuff. And we're beginning to hit the ground running with a few cool ideas for 2026. I'm not trying to be ominous. Nothing's really concrete at the moment. But potentially some more television stuff.

I really want to focus on Clean Co and Untapped. I think I find that with the kind of mind that I have, have it's quite easy to all of a sudden get a bit overloaded with with thin stuff that's certainly how I felt going into the desert it's like I've got you know all of these things cooking and happening but actually these two could really benefit from you know my full attention so I think I think Clean Co fits very much still in line with my plans to kind of work on and develop things that help people. I think untapped, like this podcast, can be quite helpful to people. We explore human potential. Yes. And, you know, if, if Project 7 can inspire one person to go and run a marathon,

obviously that's a really cool thing to do for that person. Hopefully it does more than that. You know, if James's place, you're able to save one life as a result of it, which I happen to know as a fact we already have, you know, I think just this. And you know, every person, that James Place helps at some point may meet somebody that's also in trouble. Yeah. And we'll want to help them. And in turn, you know, the ripple effect of one person being saved, the gratitude from that in itself must be so firm.

It's honestly a real honour to be working with them. Like I just think they do such great work. I'm really proud to be able to do my bit for it. Spencer Matthews. You didn't disappoint. Well done. You're the best, I love you. Nearly cried. Yeah.

Yeah, you got me. You got me at one point. I was so nearly down and I thought, how can I suppress these feelings? Get rid of it, this weakness. Yeah.