Begin Again with Davina McCall - The Happiness Expert: It’s Not Too Late To ReInvent Yourself, 5 Steps To A Better Life! With Robin Sharma

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall sits down with world-renowned happiness expert, bestselling author, and leadership coach Robin Sharma for a powerful and heartfelt conversation about how we can all live more meaningful, joyful lives. Robin shares the transformative lessons that reshaped his own path — from breaking free of fear and self-doubt, to embracing silence, journaling, spiritual practice, and daily routines as tools for happiness and self-mastery. With his signature mix of depth and clarity, he explains how small shifts in mindset and behaviour can lead to radical change — no matter your age or stage in life. Together, Davina and Robin explore the truth about reinvention, the neuroscience of fulfilment, and the emotional power of letting go of what no longer serves you. They unpack how to parent with purpose, create space for stillness, and age with intention and grace — while staying connected to your deepest values. This is a conversation about starting over, showing up, and choosing joy on purpose. Grounded, inspiring, and rich with wisdom — Robin’s message is a timely reminder that it’s never too late to begin again. 📢 We’d love to hear from you: What’s one habit you’ll adopt to boost your happiness after listening? Robin’s mentoring programme The Deep Magic of Daily Consistency, is available now with 10% off for Begin Again Listeners at: https://bolindaoriginals.supercast.com/?coupon=DAVINA Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod   (00:00) Intro (01:02) Robin’s Life Transformation (02:23) A Special Gift for Davina (03:24) Faith and Bold Life Choices (08:20) Starting Over in Midlife (09:41) 5 Questions to Start Your Day (13:22) Rewire Your Brain for New Thinking (17:26) Managing Stress and Recovery (20:43) Digital Detox and Boundaries (32:31) Indeed Ad (34:04) Overcoming Victim Mindset (38:03) Letting Go of the Past (43:54) Purposeful Parenting (48:50) Robin’s Morning MVP Routine (54:40) Spirituality and Daily Prayer (56:50) How Words Shape Self-Belief (1:02:52) Journaling for Mental Clarity (1:07:04) Fitness and Health Habits (1:12:39) Power of Silence (1:14:17) Aging Gracefully (1:27:05) Robin’s Advice on Love (1:39:03) Davina’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Indeed - https://indeed.com/beginagain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You have changed so many lives, empowering people to begin again. We have to be brave. We have to take risks. And no matter what age. You get to that midlife point. It's almost like a feeling of panic. People feel like it's too late to change. Well, let's go to the science. There are five questions to ask yourself each morning and be happier, more focused and more alive. So the first question is, have you got any tips or wisdom around love? There are so many people who have been in in long-term partnerships, but it's like, how do I keep the love going? I don't think you can give someone more love than you feel within yourself. The second thing is, I think a great life is about setting boundaries.

Once we know better, we can do better. And so how do you set the boundaries? Well, first of all, but if you want to be in the game for another 30, 40, 50 years, key to longevity is... This is life gold. I feel like I've been reborn. Okay, before this podcast starts, go grab a notebook and a pen. You're going to need it because there is so much class information in this podcast that you're going to want to write it down.

So after you've written it down, this could also double up as your journal. There'll be more about that in the podcast. And if you want more top draw guests on this podcast, then please you've got to like and subscribe. It's literally just clicking a button. but it would massively help us. Let's start. Okay. Robert Sharma, I love you.

Like, hi. How are you? It's great to be here, Davina. I mean, it's such an honour to have you here. You have changed so many people's lives and talk about kind of enriching people to begin again, start their own lives again, enabling people, empowering people.

And I think, I know you, predominantly I think you're seen as like a business leader, but for me, it's not just about business, it's about life, it's about purpose. And that for me covers everything. Your purpose might be something completely different, but you help people find that. And I'm so happy to have you here.

But we were just talking a little bit about, you gave me a piece of artwork. And I feel so privileged to have received this piece of artwork, but I am fascinated as to how come I was the lucky one to receive it. What made you want to do that? It was just instinct. About two days ago, I said I should do some art for Divina. And last night, I just got busy last night.

And then this morning I went for my morning walk. And as I was walking, I said, I've got to do the art for Divina. So I went back to my hotel room. and I pulled out my charcoal and I pulled out my pastels and I just drew intuitively. And in my artwork, I also try to use words. Yes. And the words that I wrote just, they were just what I felt would be helpful to you. So it was a real joy for me to do it.

And it was just instinct. I mean, what's fascinating is one of the words that you used was faith. And I mean, this might feel like quite a topsy. Hervey interview because I'm going to start with that because we're here now. But I thought of a story. When I got clean, I was a drug addict. And when I got clean, I was told, I went to Narcotics anonymous and I was told to pray every day. And I was at the point where I would have jogged on one foot in the middle of Trafalgar Square naked if they told me to do that. You know what I mean? I would do anything to stay off drugs. And so I was praying, but I'd lost faith.

I put my hands together and I was like, please give me strength and courage, whatever. Like, you're not even there. Everyone was dying. I had lost any faith in any good at all, or any God or anything. And it's a God of your understanding. It's not, it doesn't have to be any particular God. And I thought, I'm going to go and see a psychic. I don't even believe in psychics. I don't believe in any, don't believe people can talk to dead people. I thought, I'll just do anything. So I sat in front of this psychic and he said, I'm talking to your granddad, that guy there. Wow.

And I said, oh yeah, like so sarcastic, like so like, yeah, and. And he said, he said every night you pray for strength and courage. And I'd go like that. And I think, oh my God, that is actually what I pray for. And I start crying. And he said, he wants you to know your prayers are being heard. And I don't even really believe. I've looked back at that now,

but I believe that something took me to that person to hear that message because I interpret that as the world is listening. And you putting faith on that painting and me thinking of that today. And I was just like, you know, I think our instinct is so much more powerful. than our intellect. And our intellect are the beliefs that the world teaches us. And our intellect says,

here's what success looks like. And our intellect says live in the safe harbor of the known and don't take too many risks and don't trust yourself and sing with your voice and create life on your own terms. But I think the instinct is our voice of wisdom. I think the intellect is basically what society says we need to do to fit in. And the world, when we're born, we're curious. But as we get older and we're influenced by the programming of the world around us, we shift from curiosity to conformity. And I think instinct is so powerful. And the more we listen to it and get still and quiet and then have the bravery to trust it,

whether you're 50 years old, 60 years old, a hundred years old. You know, DeVina, I have to tell you last night, the reason I didn't do your artwork and waited until this morning is my 85-year-old mother got on a plane from Toronto and by herself flew here to London. And I was hanging out with Mama last night and just walking the streets of this incredible city. And, you know, I just think, I think we have to be brave and we have to take risks and no matter what age. And she's 85, as I say, and she still has the sparkle in her eye, you know, and she still says, I'm going to walk down these stairs. And I'm still going to have a glass of champagne with you and just enjoy time with myself. done. So faith is important. Taking risks is important. And we're in our world right now. It's such a

mess. And faith that we're being protected. I think that's part of what you were suggesting. Faith that faith that we're being protected and everything is going to turn out absolutely fine is super important. I am I feel like you know when you're talking about instinct it's so interesting. you said about little children that they're born with this instinct and then as parents I think we think we're working in their best interests we kind of knock it out of them

sometimes they say really weird spiritual things I remember my daughter saying I don't think that the universe is finite I think it's infinite and then I remember kind of thinking what is she told? talking about, but you know, she's right. Like it just goes on and on and on and we now know that it goes on and on. It's like there's no, there's no end to it. And I thought, who am I to tell her?

But then we get it beaten out of us. And then I think as we get to our age, we start listening again. Why do you think that is? Well, I agree. We're born into genius and too many good souls get resigned into ordinary. When we're little, when we're little kids, we don't hate. When we're little kids, we have a sparkling our eye. When we little kids, we love doing our art. When we're little kids, we are possibilities. And why, then we do get it knocked out of us. We are taught to think like everyone else. I mean, we don't celebrate the free thinkers, but I think free thinking in this world we live in is a radical act versus, you know, group think. But why do we get to 40, 50 or 60 and then start waking up again? I believe it's because we start to connect with our

mortality. When we're 20 years old, we have a huge runway. We're never going to die is what we think. When we reach the halftime point of our life and when we start thinking about beginning again, we realize the shortness of life. And one of my favorite acronyms is KDC. keep death close. KDC, keep death close. And I have a morning protocol and part of that protocol is asking myself a question, what needs to be said at the end? Yes, and I, because there are five things, right? You wake up in the morning. Amazing. And that's the last one. Right. So tell me, what do you mean by that? I was, that was going to be one of my questions too. It's weird that, well, there's nothing weird. This is completely as it's supposed to be. Um, what does

What does that mean? So the tool is the five, just to be of service to your many viewers and listeners, the protocol, as part of the morning routine, is called the five question morning maximizer. And these are five questions to ask yourself each morning and then just write a paragraph or two in your journal. And my clients have found it really valuable to be happier and more focused and more alive in their days. So the first question is, what am I grateful for?

We know that gratitude is the antidote to fear. Second question is, where am I winning? So we start celebrating some micro wins because the human brain has a negativity bias. We're always looking for what's missing and what's not working. This reframes it. Third question is what must I let go of? Yeah. And we can talk about, you know, one of the great spiritual skills or leadership skills is learning to let go. Learning to let go of betrayals, disappointments, the past. Fourth question is what does my ideal day head look like? So you have a little script. So you're setting some intentions. And that brings us to the fifth question. What needs to be said at the end? And the more we can connect to the shortness of life, the more we can connect to our mortality, the more we're going to start to live to the point versus being busy, being busy, spending our days chasing trivial pursuits. And I think if we could just connect to our mortality every morning and strip away complexity and administeria and even holding back the love in our hearts, holding back on the things our instincts as we should do.

But we're, oh, what if I fail? What if I'm laughed at? What if I look like a kook? And we just live from that instinct. I think we'd be so much happy in our lives. So when you say at the end, you mean at the end of our lives. You know, it's like how am I going to feel on my? deathbed. I turned down a job. I fell in love at 50 and I turned down a job that would mean that I

probably wouldn't be able to be with my boyfriend in the evenings because I'd have to get up so early to go to work because I thought to myself on my deathbed, will I be pleased I did that job or will I be sad I didn't spend more time with Michael? And I thought, I want to spend more time with Michael. So it's quite good when you think of that, like, is that what you mean by that? That's exactly what I mean. Another little mental tool that I use is that thank goodness, I'm healthy. But if I'm lucky, I have 25 years left to live, maybe 30. And so I call this my 25 summers question. So when I'm about to make a decision, I say, well, I roughly have 25 Christmases left, 25 summers. Wow, that's quite sobering when you say it like that. When you say it like that, you say,

okay, I better get this done or I better do this ethical ambition or I better take this risk or I better chase that love story. So I think death is not depressing. Thinking about death is not depressing. I think thinking about death is actually inspiring because then it just sharpens you on what's most important in life. I think what is scary when you get to that midlife point is this kind of, it's almost like a feeling of panic.

It's like you said there's that confidence that you have in your 20s and 30s that it's just going to go on forever and then there's suddenly a realisation and I think it is probably 40, 45 where you're like, oh okay, this is halfway.

And I think that possibly people feel like it's too late to change. Young people can make those changes, but I'm stuck in my ways. Is that true? Well, let's go to the science. Every human being alive today has a gift. And the gift is the gift of neuroplasticity, which is a brain that can adapt to new circumstances.

How easy is it to change those neural pathways? So one of my favorite brain tattoos is all changes hard at first and it's messy in the middle and it's gorgeous at the end. And I better say it again because I can't stop saying it. All change is hard at first, messy in the middle, gorges at the end. So our society says that if there's change and it's hard, there's something wrong. It should be easy. What's this fascination with easy? What? Wopen. Yes. A great relationship isn't easy. Climbing a mountain isn't easy. Reading war and peace or the prophet by Khalil Gibran isn't easy. Writing a screenplay that inspires the world is not easy. Running a marathon or raising a family is not easy. Getting into great health is not easy. What is this love affair

our society has with easy? I feel like that's quite a new thing. I just everyone wants it all easy and quickly in three seconds and in a nanosecond. But the best things in life are hard. Yes. And it's not and that's not a bad thing. because often it's what the journey towards the Mount Everest, what it makes of us is also part of the reward. So when we do difficult things, it introduces us to powers, abilities, gifts, and talents we didn't even know we had. So I would actually say hard is easy and easy is hard.

When you do hard things, you join the 5 a.m. club, you eat clean, you keep your promises, you treat people well, you take your work seriously and you push magic into the marketplace. You do hard things. It gives you an easy life. When you pursue an easy life, you know, just looking for the path of least resistance, you're going to have a hard life and be stuck in misery. Can you explain to people why it would be miserable to pursue the easy life? Because I think people think, oh, but the easy life, it's less stressful, it's less, you know, it's the kind of past the least resistance. Why wouldn't, why isn't that good? Well, stress is actually not a bad thing. So science will confirm stress isn't, stress is not the killer. Stress introduces

us to our hidden capabilities. A great athlete uses stress to get stronger and to build muscle. A great, a great writer will do difficult work to increase. their mastery. So stress is not the culprit. It's we don't recover from stress. I think that's a key point. Stress makes us better. Billy Jean King, the great tennis player said it beautifully. She said pressure is a privilege. Pressure is a privilege. If there's a lot of responsibilities on your shoulders, look at the people you get to help. Look at the strengths and the talent you get to know about yourself. It's just we don't recover from the stress and whether it's rest or whether it's meditation or whether it's working hard as well as taking walks in the park. That's that's the

issue. I think what's interesting, sorry, just to stay on the stress thing for a moment is that what we're saying is that it seems to be all or nothing. Either people are living a life where they are on it 24-7 and I think this is I have a potential to be this I love my job I love doing it I could do it all the time and I feel like stress is going to give me an edge and keep me going and I like that feeling of stress but actually I know that physically for my body stress is terrible um for my heart from from from inflammation for physical but but it means that the other people seem to be going, oh, I don't want any of that. You know, stress is so terrible.

So there is a middle ground and this is where we should all be aiming. So there's a model that I teach to my client called the twin cycles of elite performance. And the idea behind it, the principle behind it is elite performance without deep recovery is an empty victory. Wait, did you say that again? Elite performance without deep recovery is an empty victory. victory. And related to that, the Energy Project has done some great work, and they found that the most creative and productive people are less like marathoners working 24-7, 365, and their research has found the most productive and creative people are more like sprinters. They work in bursts of

intense effort. So the twin cycles of elite performance model, imagine a circle, and at the top of it, imagine a box. Inside is the HEC, the high excellence cycle. And then at the bottom is the DRC, the deep recovery cycle. And all I'm saying is each day, when you work, do real work versus, or anyone do real work versus fake work. A lot of us spend eight hours, but it's only two hours of really real work. So when you work, really work hard. And then each day takes some time for deep recovery. That's recreation that re-creation. That's recreates. you. It could be connecting with nature. It could be an Epsom salt bath. It could be what I call MVP, meditation, visualization, and prayer. It could be in the evening, put down your phone

and read a book that causes you to feel more alive. It could be a conversation with your family without any technology. And then each week, take at least a day off. I call it a digital fast or a digital Sabbath. I love this idea. Yeah, just a day with 24 hours, week with no digital devices because a lot of us are becoming cyber zombies and we are just overstimulated and we can't sit still anymore than every quarter take a few days off. And so build recovery into your days. And that is not only a key to doing great work, it's a key to longevity because you want to be in the game for another 30, 40, 50 years.

And if you're not, if all you're doing is working, then you're actually depleting your assets of genius, like your inspiration, your energy, your discipline. I loved what you said about the 24 hours of no technology. And I was talking with the gang this morning before you got here. We were very excited about you arriving. And I was talking about social media and how much time I personally waste scrolling. And the awful thing is that part of my... job is social media. So that's my excuse, right? I tell myself, oh, well, I've got to have a look

at it because it's for work. And, you know, it's important that I can kind of respond to people or tell people what I'm doing or promote a program or a podcast, right? And I've got one of those things that tells you how much time you spend on that. And like, sometimes it's like four hours, Robin. Robin. Like, imagine what I could do with those four hours. Imagine if it was. Imagine if it was It was just one hour working a day online and three hours of all of the beautiful things that you were talking about, having screen free conversations with your family, learning something, reading. What am I doing? I'm actually surprised it's only four hours because... Can I be honest?

Yeah. That's a good day. That's a good thing. Well, that's very honest. The research actually says that on an average day, most people spend 4.7 hours on their phone. And I believe you can change the world or play with your phone all day, but you can't do both. I believe that technology is an incredible servant, but a terrible master. Like when you think about it, technology is fantastic.

Look at all the people you're influencing through your Instagram, for example. So I think it's extraordinary that on your digital device, you can influence. millions of people. That's, I think, something to celebrate. The real key, I think, is just having good digital hygiene. Yes. And setting boundaries. I think a great life or a great relationship is about setting boundaries. I think a great life is setting clear boundaries. Can you just explain to people? Because we talk about setting boundaries in life all the time. But what is a boundary? How do you set it? And how important is it once you've set it to stick to it? Brilliant question. What I would say is the more, you know, I'm going to be 61 in June.

Can I just say something as well? Sure. Sorry, I don't mean to blow smoke up your ass. But we were all saying, you are a brilliant advert for how you live because you look great. Oh, thank you so much. I mean, I don't want to say for 61 because what does 61 look like? But oh my God, shames. Okay, carry on. Thank you. And I'm happy to share some of the habits that have been helpful to me in the spirit of service to your to your listeners and followers. We want that. I'd be very happy to. And there's some things that anyone can do.

So for sure, we should get to that. So. Sorry. On the boundaries, the more I look at behavior that doesn't feel right, do you know what I mean? More like someone does something, sometimes you scratch your head and go, why did that person do that? why did that person make that betrayal? Why did that person take from me? Why did that person not show up on time or whatever it is?

Some of the behavior that irritates this about others, more and more, I believe it comes down to boundary issues. And people do the best that they know based on the level of consciousness they're at. And so as Maya Angelou once said, if once we know better we can do better. But I think a lot of people do suffer from boundary issues and it goes back to childhood. And if we live in a childhood or our family of origin is an environment where there's no structure and no boundaries, we grow into adults that don't respect other people's boundaries, but even more importantly,

Divina, a lot of us don't respect our own boundaries. How do you set boundaries? Well, first of all, you get clear on what your boundaries are. And then once you know your boundaries, like maybe you need time for yourself, maybe someone always shows up late for your cocktail or your dinner. And you just go, that makes me feel bad. And there's another model. I don't want to make it too complicated, but joy is a GPS and you've got to trust your joy. And so how do you set the boundaries?

You speak your truth even when your voice shake. none of us like I love that none of us like conflict so most of us we don't say a word if someone keeps on showing up late or we end up paying for dinner

every single time or we share something in confidence I say Devinna you know this is really private and all of a sudden they go and they tell everyone they've broken that disrespected that boundary how do you how do you protect the boundary you say Sam I just want to let you know

when you did that it made me feel this. And it's an act of bravery to use your voice to protect your boundary. And that causes people to respect you. And if they don't like it, maybe they're not the right friend for you. I mean, I loved what you said about children. And it really resonated for me. You said that children just need strong, firm boundaries and to learn morals and manners, you know, like to kind of to have a moral framework. And I think that is so true. They don't need you to be their best friend. They've got lots of friends and everything. They need you to parent them, you know, guidance. And I, you know, I get on well with my kids, but I am a parent, not their best friend. And I thought

that was brilliant. We are singing from the same songbook. I'm not my parents, I'm not my children's buddy. I have an incredibly great relationship with Colby and Bianca, but I'm their parent. And it's my responsibility to parent them. And, you know, children of alcoholics, for example, I have one. My mother was an alcoholic. So they suffer from something called crisis-oriented living. And so, as I understand it, because the childhood environment had, so much crisis, they become adults who actually find safety in crisis. And often we recreate the crisis even where no crisis has to be because it's familiar at a subconscious level. And so I agree with you as much as possible if you're a parent, you know, creating a safe haven

in your home and creating structure. And your kids will say, oh, like, I don't like it. But secretly, I believe they love the structure because it shows they're being protected. It shows that you care. And people and kids want that boundary in that sense of structure in their lives. I was very lucky because I didn't actually grow up with my mom. I would visit her in the holidays. So I'd have the carnage for a holiday. And then I would go back to my grandmother, who is the wife of that man in the naval outfit.

and they brought me up and they brought me up with quite, they were quite strict. But I loved what you said there, that they will quite like it, the children, if you bring them up with these boundaries, because it actually just made me feel safe. You know, I knew where I stood. I know that this is, this is my area and I know if I step over that, I'm going to get told off, but it makes me feel safe to know that to be the truth. Do you mind if I ask you a question? Yeah.

So we live in a really strange world right now. There's pandemics and there's wars and there's social upheaval and there's a lot of economic volatility. Do you feel safe in the world right now? Interestingly, this morning I spoke to Michael. I've been in a bubble for six months. And actually the thing that made me not feel safe in the last six months, I mean, I'm I missed three months of life. I didn't, I couldn't remember anything because the tumour was in my short term memory. So I was, I basically woke up with advanced Alzheimer's and got better type

thing. It wasn't Alzheimer's, but it was like that. That's how it manifested. And how that made me feel. I normally, since I've been with Michael, everything has felt right. It just feels right. and I feel safe possibly for the first time in my life and whatever is happening in the world it's uncomfortable it makes me sad probably more than anything I just feel come on

come on guys but in myself I felt safe but this last six months made me feel vulnerable and I've never felt vulnerable before and interestingly obviously I knew your work before but in the past sort of two three weeks

of deep diving back into you again I was like you really helped me feel less vulnerable because I am in control of my life again. I suddenly felt like other things were controlling me and I had no power and I was like oppositional thinking has come back into my life.

You know, I'd kind of lost that, actually. And could you explain to people, this is one of your concepts, what that is? Sure. Because I was having negative thoughts again, and I hadn't had that. Well, I love the word agency. All human beings have agency, whether we believe it or not. We have the power to shape our lives, whether we believe it or not. One of the ways you can define someone who operates as a victim is CBE, complaint, blame, and

excuse. They are constantly giving away their power to the economy and to the wars and to the news and to the polycrisis, to their difficult customers, to a difficult childhood. They're constantly giving away their power. And I think if a human being practices anything, they get really good at something. And if each day we give away our power to external things, we get really good at becoming powerless. And just because we feel in this world right now, we don't have any power to handcraft a life that we adore or to make a difference doesn't mean that we don't have any power. And so I think the opposite of victimhood is leadership. And yes, I spent a lot of my life working with billionaires and sports superstars and mentoring the leadership teams of the

Fortune 50 organizations. But leaders don't have to have titles. And, you know, you know, you can lead without a title. And you can be a human being who shows leadership over your days by shifting from CBE, complaint, blame and excuse to APR, absolute personal responsibility. Do you run your own business? Are you looking to hire more people? Well, if you answered yes to both of those questions, just want to say, well done, boss ladies and boss gents.

Keep chasing your dreams. I have been there myself and I know how much goes into building and growing a team and it is brilliant fun and it's scary but it is really worth it and I know when it comes to building a team how time consuming and also hard that can be but I want to tell you about today's sponsor because when it comes to hiring indeed is all you need do you like that do you see what I did there it rhymed but anyway seriously indeed is the place to post your next role because they will help you hire the right person fast. And their sponsored jobs mean you can stand out and they'll even put your post at the top of the page for any relevant candidates, which truly

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Terms and conditions apply. You're talking about victimhood here. And I've always thought or felt like people that are in victim mode are almost the toughest to reach, would you say that's a fair kind of view? I would because I think it's an act of courage to let go of the beliefs that you are certain are true. I think the bravest people alive are those who say, here's the beliefs that I've constructed my life around.

But what if they're just the beliefs that have been programmed into me by my early caregivers and my teachers and the media. Most people think that we see the world as it is and we forget that we see the world as we are. We see the world through a perceptual filter based on, based on the beliefs that have been programmed. And so, yes, I believe a victim doesn't, seems very strong, not because they're strong, but because they're terrified. They're terrified of saying, what if my beliefs aren't true and the ground that I stand on is actually going to fall apart as I adopt new beliefs, new behaviors, new ways of operating, treating people more differently, taking my work, seeing my work differently, changing my health.

That's why human change is scary and that's why all change is hard at first. It's messing the middle and it's scourge just at the end and to go perhaps even deeper. the very act of changing, whether it's health or love or work or anything, involves a micro-death. And what do you mean by the? Well, I mean, for us to change, there must be a death of our old beliefs, a death of our old emotional architecture, a death of our habits of yesterday, for us to become the next version of our greater selves. That takes great courage.

It takes great courage. But it's the best way to live out the rest of your life because you're getting to be who you're meant to be. So victims, I think, are very scared and they will cling to their beliefs. And I think that's why I'm such a fan of personal growth. I think it's a dangerous way to live and it's a difficult way to live and it requires micro bravery every day. But I think it's the best way to spend the rest of your life. When we're talking about, you know, victims being the hardest because they're almost the most frightened. I mean, I remember seeing a bit of a footage of, a bit of footage of, it was a primate. When I think of me trying to control my life, I was a complete control freak because that used to make me

feel safe, but it wasn't really safe. But it was, so I just kind of try and make sure that I knew everything. I just couldn't let go. And I have got better at it. I'm not brilliant. I'm a work in progress on that family. Me too. But I remember seeing footage of a monkey in a raging river and it was holding on to a branch to live, to survive. It couldn't get out of the river. The river was too strong. And letting go was uncertain, didn't know where it would end up.

And it was clinging on like that. And that's how I see myself, like animal. It's like terrified, clinging on in a raging river. And what happens if I let go? But the times when I do in my head just go. I'm letting go and just go with the water is so unbelievably liberating. I can't explain the feeling, but it's really incredible. Sorry, what I'm trying to say is what would happen to a victim to make them be prepared to do that because it is that terrifying.

Well, what you just said is really fascinating to me about the monkey in the river because it makes me think of a poem called The Trapeze. Who's that by? I wish I could remember who it's by, but we could search. Yeah, yeah, we'll say it. Give credit to the person who wrote it. Okay, let's do that. But I'll paraphrase the trapeze. And the trapeze basically says, we go through life holding on to the trapeze bar of the moment.

And as we're on this trapeze bar, we know most of the answers to our. biggest questions. And we're going through life with a great sense of certainty, so we cling to this trapeze bar for the moment. But every once in a while, off in the distance, what do we see? Another trapeze bar with our name on. And if in our heart of hearts, we know that if we don't grab onto that trapeze bar that's coming to get us, we are going to miss out on our greatest life. And so with shaking hands and a beating heart, we let go of our trapeze bar for the moment, and we leap into the void. And for a nanosecond or for a year, we're in the void, where we haven't caught on to the trepeze bar of the future, but we've let go of the trapeze bar of the past. And then this poet goes on to say, I believe that in the void is really the only time that we're truly alive.

And in the void is when we have that faith walk, where we get to know who we truly are and we really figure out what's most important. And so I think life is a series of trapeze bars. And I think we have a choice. We can be victims and live our lives in the safe harbor of the known. Or we can say, hmm, instinct is telling me I need to leave this relationship. Instinct is telling me I need to fix this relationship. Instinct is telling me I need to move to Bali. Instinct is telling me I need to write the screenplay, run the marathon, climb the mountain.

And so when we leave the safe harbor off the known and we go out into the blue ocean of possibility, it's more dangerous and we face more risks, but I believe that's what life is all about. No, I was thinking about then. Sorry. I mean, they have to put tissues by my chair. Like, this is ridiculous, Robin. What has happened to me?

It's like all my feelings are on the outside of my skin. I mean, I kind of like it. Like, I like... What I was thinking there was this... I had such a real, strong... feeling when you said let go and you're in the void of joy. Is that weird? Like the letting go into the unknown takes again such enormous courage and it's so difficult to do. But the joy that you must feel when you do that and you don't know what's coming, but you have faith that it's

going to be okay. But I was thinking it really made me think of my kids. I don't know about your son and daughter, but there comes a point. Yours are a bit older, I know, now. How old are you when you had kids? Around 30. Okay. Me too, I was a bit older. I was a little bit older, but I'm just letting go of my kids now. And it's interesting. It's quite hard. Go make your own mistakes. I'm here if you need me. You know what I mean? Sure. And I think, I think that's another job of a parent, which is rather than, it's very easy out of protection. to control the child. But I think our job as parents, and this is my humble opinion, but it's to let them make their mistakes and let them trust their instincts and let them think for themselves and

become independent, kind, generous, loving people. And if I may, I just want to say about what you're saying, how deeply you feel right now. What an incredible gift the universe is given to you. like in this world where so many of us are numbed out, we're digital addicts, too many of us are just, you know, whatever. We're running away from what is for whatever reason. Maybe it's some kind of a blessing, I believe it is. It feels a bit like that. Well, you're just, you're just hyper alive. Like, I think, I think, you know, you're in a state that everyone wants to be in,

in many ways. I mean, I think also with, with, I think my brain was affected by the tumour and I didn't, I didn't think I was symptomatic and I think that I was. So I just, I'm thinking a lot. And I'm loving that again. You know, I feel like I'm back. And so like talking to you, you keep saying things. I'm like, it's like I've never heard anything before.

It's like being, I feel like I've been, I feel like I've begun again. Like I've been reborn. And everything I'm hearing, like you talking, I'm, I'm, like at the beginning of this podcast, I'm going to tell everybody to go and get a notebook and a pen. And you're going to be stopping, rewinding, stopping, rewinding. This is like life gold. So thank you. You're just, I'm having the best time ever, I just want to say that.

It's an honor. I think the other thing that's interesting, and I know we don't want to talk about what not to do really, because this is the wrong mindset to have. It's almost like putting the thought into your head and you don't really want to plant the wrong thoughts in your head. It's like think the right thoughts to go down the right path. But equally as a parent, if you are trying to control your child, in a way, the disservice that they're doing. Let's just talk about your dad for a moment, who was such an amazingly positive influence on your life

and him and his self-help books and how that shaped you as a person. But a parent that's very controlling around their child or stopping them from doing things doesn't allow their child to learn or make mistakes. How can, you know, have you got a blueprint to be the, best possible parent. I don't have a blueprint, but I think, you know, love takes many forms. And I believe love is setting boundaries and, you know, mentoring your kids by offering them

great ideas and giving them great experiences. I learned this from Jackie Kennedy. She said, you know, I'm not just a parent of my children. I'm a developer of my children. And based on her lead when my kids were, you know, I was a single father and my kids were two and four and we went to this shop and bought backpacks and we traveled together through Europe. And I took them to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa, you know, two and four. These two, you know, and they were like, oh, Daddy, it's so small, you know. And then we did some overnight train trips and then I took them to here, here to London. I took them to Rome. And so I think it's important that we develop children. I love traveling with kids and people say, well, my kids are too young, you're planting seeds.

So I would say expose kids to great art, expose kids to great music, expose kids to great experiences. I think of Joseph P. Kennedy, the patriarch of the Kennedy family. When the Kennedy kids were just kids, when someone interesting would come to dinner, the kids were expected to be at the table and participate in the conversation. I think it's very easy to say, okay, this interesting guest is over for dinner. Kids go watch TV or play with your devices, which brings me to another thing. This is just my opinion. But the time with you have a little window of opportunity with family and especially kids. And when it closes, it's hard to open it up again.

I do see not judging, just reporting, but a lot of families, let's say in restaurants and everyone's on their digital device. And I just think, you know, you'll never get that. time again with the kids. Once in a while, I think, but if it's a daily practice where you're so exhausted that you're just saying, here's the iPad or here's the digital device, I don't know if it's the greatest way to raise kids. And then also part of a blueprint maybe is, I think you just do have to show tough love and set clear boundaries and, you know, not be liked. I think if all you're trying to do is be liked by your kids, you're doing your kids a disservice. And even in our other relationships, I think we get into huge dangers just by wanting to be liked by everyone.

I think leadership and living a high functioning human life is not about being liked. It's about doing what you think is right. It's interesting. You talk about lots of things that are helpful in life and one of them is adventure. And I was always, I think because I was never really taken on any adventures, I've been nervous about doing that with my children. I mean, I guess I do adventures of different kinds. I love clubbing and music. So I've taken all my kids clubbing when they turn 18.

Oh, that's pretty cool. So it's like a different, I guess, but I'm not, I wish I could go back and do it all again. And I suppose this is a very brilliant thing to tell. young parents now, you don't get this opportunity again. I can't go back and reparent my kids. And what I know now, you know, I can't wait to have grandkids. I'm going to be a great grandma. Are you a granddad? Not yet.

Oh, it's going to be, my God, can you imagine having Robin Sharma as your granddad? God, it's a scary thought. It's going to be maize balls. Gosh. Yeah, but we're going to be so cool. I think you just aged me and five. Fuck, we're the same. We're the same age. Like, don't, like, virtually.

So close. Like, oh, that's, okay, let's get on to that. How do you look like you look? Well, so I am a card-carrying member of the 5am club. I've been doing that for many years. And I don't, I don't. I'm going to quick just hold this here because, I mean, it's a lot to go into, but I hope you'll just give us a little premise of the book.

Sure. But this is a game changer. I've got to say to me personally, 5 a.m. I've got a boyfriend that likes going to bed at midnight. We've got to change that somehow. We've got to go early. We've got to get to bed earlier. But this is the wins that you get from this changing your life in such a small way really is amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. So I think a great morning routine is absolutely helpful. And I like getting up at 5 a.m. or even 4 a.m. And for the past year, half or so. I've been getting up around four and then I'll do 45 minutes of MVP, meditation, visualization, and prayer. We can get into what it looks like. I'm happy to share how I pray. I would really like to hear it. You want me to get into it? Yes, I do. So I just don't want to go too detailed. But if you want me to get into it, it's a pleasure. Can I say,

I think that possibly that part of your day, having read about it a bit, is the most important. It's the start. It's setting up your intention for the day and actually how you do it. we would love to know. Sure. So the macro principle is the way you begin your day sets the entire tone for your day. So started in the most positive way. The Spartan warriors say sweat more in training and you'll bleed less in war. So this is a training period so you have a great day.

So four to four 45 I get up and I lay in bed and I open the window and I get this fresh air coming in. And I MVP meditation. The M is for meditation. My meditation is I might do some body scans and notice, oh, there's some, there's fear in my solar plexus. Let me work through it just by acknowledging it and befriending it versus resisting it. To heal an emotion, we need to feel an emotion. My meditation. Oh, wait.

That's interesting. So if you're feeling fear, you know, because sometimes you can say, oh, like, don't feel that. It's fine. You kind of like try and change it by ignoring it. actually you're saying feel it. Well, Carl Jung, one of the most eminent psychologists, talked about the shadow side. The shadow side is the part of us that we don't know we have, but that runs our days. It's the subconscious trauma and wounding. How does our shadow side build? How does it occur? It's because we experience things during our days. Maybe it's hurt,

anger, frustration, disappointment, and we swallow it because I, our society says don't feel it. But little kids, before they're trained to be adults, little kids go, they start to cry. I feel really sad. I didn't get invited to that birthday party. Or I'm angry with you. You didn't buy that toy. And they let it out and then three minutes later they're off riding their little bicycle down the street.

Hadn't thought about that. So if we don't feel we build up what I've called in my work a field of hurt. and we carry that with us through life. And that's what's really driving our thinking and it's driving our behaviors, but we blame it on the world. So meditation, sometimes I just go into the body and I just feel whatever emotions there are and I befriend them versus judge them as wrong. Shame is not wrong. Disappointment is not wrong. Anger is not wrong.

Sadness is not wrong. Jealousy is not wrong. It's called being human. But we live in a world that says be happy, happy, happy. And if you're not happy, there's something wrong with you. No. So meditation will do that. Sometimes meditation will focus on a mantra, which is a word.

How do you choose your mantra? I just whatever intuitively, like it's, you know, today is going to be a great day. Or it could be something just appreciating the progress you're making. And then I get to the V, the MVP, the V is visualization. So I'll spend maybe another 20 minutes laying in bed, seeing myself inhabiting the project. If I'm working on a new book, I'll actually, when I wrote the wealth money can't buy. I actually imagine. That was from last year.

And I, based on the eight forms of wealth, model, I've been teaching for about 20 plus years to my clients with great results. And can I just quickly say as well, I really love that one because it's not about money. It's about personal wealth in other ways. And our society teaches us that money is wealth. And if we don't have a lot of money, we're not wealthy. That book is the other seven forms of wealth. And once you know them, you go, wow, I'm living a much richer life. And so the visualization, I imagined readers reading the book and getting light lit up.

Or I might imagine myself at the next level of fitness I want to be at. But visualization is extraordinarily important. Just ask any great athlete. And then I get to the PFMVP, which is prayer. And whether you're religious or not, prayer is scientifically proven to reduce inflammation, increase immunity, grow, hope, reduce negativity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And when I pray, I pray from, if you want, I can share what I pray for. But prayer is very powerful. I would love you to share what you pray for. Sure. So it's very personal, but I pray for my elderly parents and their good help and their happiness.

And then I pray for my partner, Elle, and all her happiness and success. And then I pray for Colby and Bianca and my two children that they live their truest lives and find joy and stay healthy and are protected. Then I pray for my larger family. Then I pray for my little dog, who I call Super Chum, because she's a very much, and I pray for my super chum because she is and she's a six-pound chorky who thinks she's about to change the world. This dog is, this dog has confidence like I only could dream my head. Ah, she's a hilarious, quirky little creature.

She's amazing. Then I pray for my team. I'm here with Mihaal. You know, I've got a great team who, you know, helps me on this mission. Then I pray for my CRFs, my clients, my readers and my followers. because as success grows, it's easy to forget who puts food on your family table. So each morning I just reconnect to the people I serve. My clients, my readers, my followers, then I pray for my neighbors in my little village and community where I live.

And I pray for the people in my country, people in the world. And then I believe, well, any astrophysicist will tell you we are on one planet in a galaxy of trillions of other galaxies. So I pray for the universe at large. So would you say that rather than a religious man, you're a spiritual man? I would. Yeah. So you're not praying to a specific God of any specific religion. So a little bit like we said at the beginning of this talk when I said,

I'd seen this guy and he'd said, your grandfather wants you to know your prayers are being heard. Would you say that's kind of how you feel that like, You are praying, but that something, the universe, something is hearing you like it's going somewhere. Yes. I believe there's huge power in words. Yes. And that's why I think we live in a culture.

I'm not judging. I'm just speaking what works for me. But I think we live in a culture where we're very loose with our words. They say, I love those boots. They're sick. I love you you you did a great job on that podcast of vina you killed it we have all these words and we use our words slightly and prayer I think is ever so powerful I believe every single prayer is heard whether it comes to life on our timing or not

each prayer is heard I think even the words we speak in our self-dialogue is extraordinary powerful because our daily behavior reflects our self-identity. Maybe I could repeat that again because I think it could be valuable. Our daily behavior reflects our self-identity. And if we want more money, for example, want better health, want more love, want more joy, want greater peace, it's not about the world changing, it's about us changing. And what do we need to change? I believe it starts with the way that we see ourselves. Yes. And our self-ident, because if we, and positive psychologists have found this, that we have a

personal story. And if your story is, I can't launch an app that'll change the world. If your stories, I can't find true love. If your story is I can't get really healthy because I'm not the kind of person who could be healthy, then you're not going to practice and do the work required to be healthy. And our words shape our self-identity. If we say, you know, I'm not really good. at this. I hate this. Oh, I'm always so stupid. Oh, I always forget this. Oh, I'm never on time. Oh, I can't

join the 5 a.m. Club. Oh, I can't become a reader every night. It's all too hard. It's, you know, it's easy for you, but I can't do this. Well, our words will actually create a self-identity. And then here's the key. Our self-identity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Our self-identity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because we see ourselves as that kind of who can't get things done, so we don't take the action and then we'll never get the results. Do you know the person I always think of when I'm thinking about this or I'll talk to people when I say, don't say that about yourself and they'll go, why? You know, if I hear a friend of mine saying, I wish I had the verbal ability. No, I don't. I could have the verbal ability that

you have. I'm going to practice more. Thank you. Oh, God, that was quite good. I picked myself up there. But I always talk about Muhammad Ali. And because if somebody was to ask someone who doesn't know much about boxing, who the greatest boxer was of all time, I would always just go, Muhammad Ali. And then if somebody said to me, why?

I go, well, I don't know, because he told me. Because he told us, I am the greatest. I mean, you know, he basically told everybody that he was greatest and why he was great and how he was great. I've never known anybody with such amazing self-belief as Mohammed Ali. Whenever I think about the absolute king of it, I think of him. And Froslav I was like, oh, yeah. And I'll go, what makes him the greatest? I don't know.

It's like none of us know. but it's he told us and I thought God that is powerful that if you tell somebody I used the most intimidating thing for me when I was younger was being around really smart people I found I found I just lost my voice and I just couldn't speak because I thought I'm I'm not worthy in these circles of really intelligent people and I've talked myself out of that and that's great like as you get older, you do start realizing that you have the power to change the way you perceive yourself. Again, let's go to some science. There's an American psychologist named James Flynn. And he talks about a fascinating term. And he calls it capitalization. And what he's found, for example,

is the best boxers in the world are not the most naturally gifted. The best boxers in the world are those who capitalize on whatever talent they were born into. And so I think that's a really important point. Genius is less about genetics and more about your daily habits. Genius is about consistency. Now, I've got this program that just came out, the deep magic of daily consistency that I've wanted to do for years because I think the golden thread of any human life,

any success, any happiness, it's consistency. It's not what you do once a year. it's what you do every day. And so by building that consistency muscle, we get things done. But capitalization reminds us that it's not about being born into giftedness. It's about what you do each day, how much you practice, how much you're focused, et cetera, et cetera. And in order to live whatever potential we have, I think we do need to speak to ourselves in good ways, this idea of inner dialogue and what does it look like? It's just you start to pay more attention to how you talk to yourself when you talk to yourself. Most people talk to themselves in incredibly

self-punishing ways. So the more aware, like even pulling out a journal, call it yourself dialogue notebook and start writing down. So you have a visual of how often you're saying, I can't do this. What if that doesn't work out? I'm not a good person. They don't like me. me, I can't be a possibility. And you're going to start to see it. And with better awareness, we start to make better choices. With better choices, we can make better results. And it's as simple as then you become aware and you go, I just caught myself saying can't.

I just caught myself saying, I'm so stupid. I just caught myself saying I'm not a morning person. I just caught myself saying the world is negative. Oh, my God, Robin. I say that. That's so funny. Okay. So then we still.

Let's get about journaling. Of course. I'd love to. Okay. Because this is, I've got a barrier and I don't, there's something, it's something like, I feel like writing, maybe it's the modern technology thing. The world of technology has got me out of the habit of writing. I feel like writing is an artist.

But actually the visualization of seeing something that you have written or being able to go back or see how far you've come. is so good, but I've got to get into, how often is journaling good, like you talk about it in the morning to set your intention for the day or, like, evenings feels like quite a good time to reflect? Do you do it twice a day? You can do it whenever you want. Okay. Martin Seligman, the father of positive psychology, has done an experiment where he had people do

one simple thing. Before they went to sleep, they pulled out a jury. And they asked themselves, what were three good things that happened to me today? Okay. So even in the hardest day, you could say, the sun came up. Yeah. There were daffodils in Hyde Park that I walked by. And that London cabby was super friendly.

Oh, so like little, like real lovely little winds. Lovely little winds. And his research found that that simple evening ritual, dramatically helped people become more positive, more grounded, and more vital. So you can do it in the evening and you can do that exercise. I love doing it in the morning as part of a morning routine. I shared the five-question morning maximizer, but sometimes I'll just free flow. Here, I go, HDIF, how do I feel? And I just write how I feel. If the night before I went to a restaurant in Rome and I had a glorious meal of Mozilla di Bufela.

Oh, Mozilla. I mean. Mozilla di Bufela. Yeah. After that, you have the Talio Lini con tartuffo or Pomodoro or Carbanada. I'm getting hungry. Excuse me. Cabin.

Grown man is drilling on your show. But I love great food. But I always go into a restaurant and take the business card. And the next morning, I pull out my glue stick. and I glue the business card into the journal and I write about my experience so I relive it twice. When I'm on a train, I'll take the train ticket or a plane. I'll always get the paper boarding pass. And as people are boarding, I'll find my seat and I pull out my little glue stick and my little

color highlighters and I'll glue in the boarding pass and I'll say, I'm flying to Dubai. and here's what I'm going to do. And I'm always writing. And when I've gone through painful times in my life, my journal has saved my life. And I remember one time in my life, in one month, I journaled about 500 pages. And it was emotional processing. You can pour the pain out onto a fresh white page and there's huge healing on it. You can write about your hopes.

You can say, okay, in the next quarter, the next three months, what needs to happen for this to be the greatest three months of my entire life? And then you actually do a mind map where you say, oh, here's my fitness, here's my spirituality, here's my family life. And the more you can write it out, the more you're programming your mind to take the actions to make them true. You're very inspiring. I really feel like I'm going to buy a book. I think I'm going to have to get a bigger handbag. I think this is the thing. Because actually taking your journal with you everywhere is a good idea, I think for me. Yeah, bigger bag. That's where I'm going to start. I hope you do it. I love moleskin journals. Yeah, they're lovely, aren't they?

Just a moleskin journal, carry it in your bag, stop for a cup of tea, write. You talked about, you were just talking about writing a mind map and all the different things, and you talked about exercise. and obviously I'm a huge advocate for movement and exercise. I mean, for my mental health, I would say that saved me many times because, well, I mean, for office reasons really, but I think especially sometimes when exercise has taken me outside nature and exercise together is like, wow. Can you take me through what exercise and fitness means for you and what it does for you? Sure.

And then I'd love to because then I think I can offer a better answer to what's important to me when it comes to wellness. So exercise is so important. It creates a pharmacy. Anyone who doesn't exercise or maybe wants to turn it up, there's so much neuroscience about the value of exercise. It reduces cortisol, the fear hormone. It increases dopamine, which is the inspirational neurotransmitter. It releases serotonin, which is the pleasure neurochemical. It releases BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which actually promotes neurogenesis, which is the formation of new brain cells. Isn't that quite a new concept, new brain cells? Because people always said, you can't create new brain cells. True. They've just found out you can.

Absolutely. What a miracle. What a miracle. Exercise. Exercise will promote new brain cells. Amazing. BDNF also repairs brain cells that have been damaged by stress. And I find this interesting exercise releases nor epinephrine, which focuses, which gives you focus. And that's why after a workout, have you ever noticed, the monkey mind starts to calm down. Yes. So, so I love exercising. I do it as part of the 5 a.m. morning ritual for at least 20 minutes, just to be tactical. I, I love. love the elliptical machine. Is that part of your 2020-2020-20-20? It is. It is. I love the elliptical machine. I hydrate when I'm on the elliptical for increased mitochondrial function. And then I listen to a podcast or an audiobook.

What do you listen to? I just listen to business books. I listen to books on philosophy, communication, leadership, spirituality. One of my favorite books is letting go by on spirituality, letting go by. David Hawkins. I don't know if you've ever heard that. No. It's an extraordinary book. Well, I mean, that's my goal in life,

letting go. So I'd love to get that. We'll put a note about that somewhere on this pod. Sure. Sure, please. And then mobility, I do weights, which I think is important as you get over so you don't lose muscle mass. Right? And then I also, mobility is so important, so I don't get injured. So I stretch and I have the bands and

et cetera, et cetera. A good night's sleep is also related to me, very important for exercise. People think the 5M club is about sleep deprivation. Oh, you, but what about your sleep? The key to a great morning routine is a great pre-sleep ritual and science says we need about seven hours of sleep. There's even a chapter in the 5M club, the essentialness of sleep. So I think that's important. Sunshine, a little bit of sunshine every day, I think is key. Fresh air, what a concept. Walking in nature is good for your soul, so as much as possible. Get out by the flowers, get into a park, walk by a forest. And then I'm not an expert at medicine, and I'm not giving any medical advice, but

biohacking is really powerful. You know, there's supplements that are available that would be very helpful. I like ice bathing. Well, I shouldn't say I like ice bathing, but I'll do cryo and ice baths. Yes. Which I think are great. Do you know what's been interesting? I've been reading about that because to me ice bathing feels like counterproductive, intuitive and I've been doing lots of research because my partner, who is a man, loves ice bathing and he's always trying to get me to join him. And I'm like, no, it really feels bad. But they've said that it's better for biological males than it is for women. health-wise and that a slightly less freezing bath is better for a woman's biology.

So I'm taking that. But you know what your solution is. Well, there's a solution that has science. And again, I'm not an expert on medicine. Yes, yes. But from all the research I've read, if you want to live much longer, you don't have to be cold, you should be hot. And it's sauna. It's sauna.

Just got a sauna. So sauna is... I'm in it all the time. I'm obsessed. I heard one pundit speaking to this and they said it reduces all cause mortality by this huge factor. And people who were three times a week in a sauna for whatever the time was extended their lives by seven years. Crazy. So I think sauna is really amazing.

Fasting. I love fasting. So I do a lot of fasting. I just, you know, my mum used to fast every Monday, so I had that example. You talk a lot in your books about silence. Do you do silent retreats or are you silent? You do have moments of silence in your day, I know that, or reflection, you know, where you're calm and peaceful.

But what's your take on silence? Because when I hear somebody's been, even if somebody was to say that they were silent for a day, I feel like during COVID, the solitude, and I was locked down with five children, so it wasn't silent very often, but I was lonely. I don't know. I mean, it's probably what I need, right? If I'm not great at being quiet, maybe that's what I need. Well, you know what you need, just by your own instinct. I can tell you're a very intuitive person.

Blaise Pascal, the French mathematician, said most of a person's misery is derived by their inability to sit quietly in a room by themselves. So that might be something to play with. Practice. I think a lot of us, even when we're alone, we're never alone. Yes. Because there's just too much going on inside. So we pick up the phone.

Even if we're alone at home, we turn on the telly or the sound or the sound or whatever. But I believe silence is, is. nature sweet restorer. And I think spending time alone is so important in quietude. That's why I love reading. I think reading is such a solution. So there you go. You're alone. You're alone when you're reading or walking in the woods I think is so powerful. And I love walking. You love walking. So, I mean, you're doing, you're doing so many, so many things right. Okay, I feel a bit better about that. There's one final really biggie that I want to talk to you about

because I feel like the young, the youth, the youth of today, the ones who really do want to get ahead or that have a drive, you know, we said lots of people just want it easy, but there are some who are really super driven. the ones who do want that are all seeking at quite a young age purpose. I feel like there is a whole generation of people, maybe 40s, 50s, who spent their lives not thinking about their purpose, going for a job with stability, a future,

because we all want to get married and have a family. It was all so kind of printed, mapped out for us our lives, and this was the life that we were supposed to desire. And now it's become a lot more fluid and free, which I like. But for us midlifers, it's like, how do I find my purpose? Like what is purpose and how do I know what mine is and how do I get there? So I think the first thing is, again, we go back to self-identity. And I call the age that we are, whatever the age is.

I call it your driver's license age. And that helps me realize that's just a label society puts on us. So whether someone is 40, 50, 85, 85 is the driver's license age. You can be as youthful as you do the work required to be, if that makes sense. So never let an old person into your person. body. I think it was Robert Duval who said, Can I just hold your hand for a minute? Never let an old person into your body.

Never lose the sparkle in your eyes. Thanks Robin. Oh, that's so good. Well, it's that old idea that adults are nothing more than deteriorated children. So don't lose the sparkle in your eye. Keep, you know, keep risking and reading and having interesting conversations. Like I said, mom's 85. She hopped on a plane.

And she said, oh, of course I'm going to come. Was it a surprise? No, she's a force. She's a force of nature. She sounds great. She is a force of nature. But the first thing is, whatever your age is, if in, let's say, midlife or much older, that's just a number society has put onto you.

And I think here's the important idea, which is we don't grow old because we're old. I believe we grow old because we grow old because we're old. We think we're old. And so we say, I'm 60. I should retire. And because we say we should retire, we say, I'm 60. I can't move as much anymore. And I'm 60.

I should do the things that 60, 70, 80, 40, 90-year-old people do. Because we've allowed a program in that this is what old people do. So I think we should make a difference between the driver's license age and our true age. And I think that's, that's really important. And who's going to inspire the kids? You know, like these guys need to see us and go, like God, 60 looks mega. Make 60 the new 20. Yeah. Make 60 the new 20. Yeah. And then when it comes to purpose, I would say, you don't find your purpose. Your purpose finds you. And the deeper,

well, journaling is powerful. Prayer is powerful. Reading the people, reading of the people whose lives you want to be living through their autobiographies is very powerful. And the more you can say, hmm, this resonates with me, this life resonates with me, these beliefs resonate with me, these habits resonate with me. Then you take action to make the ideas real. And the more you take action, the more you'll grow into your greatest life. I would also say on purpose, you know, your purpose doesn't have to be to free a nation. I had a conversation. with a doorman in Barcelona. And I said, by the way, you know,

if you influence through your, he was so positive and he was very kind. And, you know, I said, you know, if you influence 100 people every day, after one month, that's 3,000 people. After one year, that's roughly 30,000 people. After 10 years, that's almost half a million people. Wow. And he was just like he couldn't believe it. It brought tears to his eyes.

And all too often, we forget that the work we do, is a chance to serve. And you walk into a coffee shop and some people are in a trance and they're checked out. But there's that one person who looks at you and says, Divina, I'm going to make you a great cup of coffee today. They're on purpose. They're on purpose. So lead where you're planted and find purpose in your days.

You don't have to go to the Himalayas to find purpose. You can find it exactly where you are. I suppose what I'm feeling from you there, that the purpose is a positive. that you can have a positive impact on someone else's life via, via what you do. Like purpose is almost like positive impact, but how are you going to have your positive impact? So it doesn't really matter what you do. You can keep doing what you're doing, but bring purpose to it?

Absolutely. Purpose could be leave everyone you meet better than you found them. purpose could be you're a teacher but maybe you've fallen into a trap of focusing on the lack of resources and the hardship and whatever maybe you don't have to change your job you can just say what is my purpose in as a teacher or as a gardener or as a taxi driver and again like i i love london cabs yes and just imagine if you're a london cabian they're great but maybe you know some Just imagine London cab who says, okay, I'm going to have 50 people in my cab today. And I'm going to say something great to every one of them and share something maybe philosophical.

Or I'm going to be curious and let someone be heard in a world where so many of us are longing to be seen and heard. Can I tell you a story? Please. So last Thursday, I went to go and have my final scan. And it was brilliant. And when I was in the taxi going to the train station to get my train back home, I got a phone call from my surgeon who said, look, I've had a quick look at your scans

and I just want to let you know that your brain looks like a brain that's never been even operated on. Amazing. It's immaculate. It's all gone and it's not coming back. And obviously I'm in the back of this cab, and I'm having a proper moment. And I say, can I tell you something to this cab driver?

And we had. Robin, we had like an amazing 10 minutes. I will never forget this guy ever and I will probably never see him again. But just what you said just there, he made a massive difference to my life. And he was like talking to me about his life. And we had like a real moment. And I thought, what a gift. And I got out and I said, mate, I really needed you.

And you fucking totally fucking showed up. Like, thank you so much. And he fainted. Yeah. No, but like, that's what you're talking about, right? Like, he's, he has the possibility. He has so many people and nobody knows what the person in the back of his cab or her cab is going through. And the power that everybody holds, we've got a family motto.

Do you have a family motto? We don't. You need one. Yeah. Yeah. Great idea. Ours is give more than as expected. And I think that's a little bit of that.

It's like go the extra mile. And it might inspire the person you're going the extra mile for, to go the extra mile for someone else. Well, this brings us back to KDC. Keep death close. Yes. If we knew we had 24 hours left to live, we would not be holding back.

I would say, oh, how much life we lose because of our fear of rejection. How many taxi drivers hold back from a real conversation? How many of us hold back with a stranger or a work colleague or even our intimate partner? We hold back for fear of rejection. But if we keep death close and realized we only had a day left or a month left, we wouldn't be holding back. and so on purpose because I think it's a really important point. I think one of the deepest longings of the human hardest purpose. And again, if we could just go to some science.

I agree. I don't know if you know this. You probably do, but Maslow has a hierarchy of human needs, the famous one. And at the bottom are the needs like shelter and survival, the basic human needs. Exactly. And as we take care of shelter and food. and safety, then we have the luxury to go on to focus on the higher human needs. And as you know from his famous Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, at the very pinnacle is

self-actualization, which is so much of what your podcast and what you do is, you know, self-actualization, self-awareness, building ourselves, building better, beginning again, etc. But not so many people know this. Before he died, he actually put something above self-actualization. actualization, which is personal development. And it was self-transcendence. Self-transcendence. What does that name? I think what he was saying is the deepest need of the human heart is to live in a way that we live for a cause that's larger than ourselves. Yes. And I think we all have a need for this

purpose. But I just really want to emphasize it doesn't mean you need to lead a country. It doesn't You need to be Mother Tracer Nelson Mandela, a taxi driver, a teacher, a street sweeper, a production assistant, whatever. We all can be a light and inspirational and find purpose in our work and uplifting other people exactly where we are. And if we do it consistently, because consistently really is the mother of mastery. And it's not what you do once a year that's going to be important. It's those little micro behaviors that you do every day that over time take you to a completely different place.

I think that's really how we find great fulfillment. The last thing I'll say on that is when you give someone else a gift, you give yourself a gift. My granny always used to say that. To give us to receive. That's so true. We forget it. When we're stuck in fear and scarcity, it's what can I get from the world. But the paradox is by asking yourself, what can I give to the world in your work,

in your language, in your interactions? When you give to someone, you uplift them, but you also give yourself a gift of self-respect because you're more aligned with who you truly are. The Japanese have a term called Intoku, which is the art of giving inceasing. And I think that's a real gift because a gift given for a reward is not a real gift. Wow, gift given in secret. Could you imagine that? Yeah. So you don't want all the kind of congratulations and the, yeah, that's really, I said we were going to end on purpose, but I've just got one more thing I do want to talk to you about.

Sure. I feel like in midlife, there are so many people who have been in long-term partnerships who they love. love their partners, but it's like how do I keep the love going, the passion, how can I renew and reinvigorate my relationship? And also for people who are meeting someone new in midlife or at any state of life meeting somebody new as a chance to be a better partner and bring something new. I always think a partner, I say to my kids, do you like you with this person? It's not what are they like?

It's like, are you a nice person with this person? So have you got any like sort of tips or bits of wisdom around love? Well, first of all, I'd say over the years, love changes. Yes. And that's not a bad thing. I think it's a great thing. Yes. So there's the early dating form of love, then the mid-stage love.

And then there's mid-stage love, and then there's maybe, you know, the love of some people in their 80s. I look at my parents, and, you know, they've had a great love story. And, you know, their love has evolved, but there's such a deep level of love. But it looks different from the way it did, I'm sure, when they first met. So I think that's one thing for us maybe to consider. The second thing is if you want deeper love, find deeper love within yourself. I don't think you can give someone more love than you feel within yourself. And that's where all the methods of personal development and healing come in.

The more you heal your wounds, the more you will step into your highest loving nature. and the more loving you can become to yourself by setting boundaries, by talking to yourself in nice ways, by eating clean food, by being in nature, by stripping away the energy vampires and the dream stealers, all those things that I talk about in my work, the more you can love yourself,

the more capacity you'll be able, you'll have to love. not only your intimate partner, but strangers on the street and the world. So personal development and self-growth, I think, is their way into more intimate love. Into everything. I really, really do believe that. Third thing I would say is, you know, a great relationship takes work. That's, again, that hard is easy and easy as hard.

And so maybe if any of your viewers and listeners have got to a place where it just seems mundane, what I think is really important is the idea of leaving because things are coming up just means things are going to come up with the next person. So why not work through them with this person? Because I've yet to meet a perfect person. So often we say, oh, this person is frustrating me. And it makes me think of, again, Carl Jung, the things that irritate us are doorways into our better selves.

And so I would say, look at what's irritating you about the other person. and then just start trying to work through it with that person. And that could be healing retreats. It could be couples, therapy. It could be reading books together. And the last thing I'd say is just, you know, get away from your home and your usual life and go travel again. Because traveling or getting away and again, adventure.

Like when we are adventure, we're nomadic. We're nomadic. We're supposed to be pirates. You know, and yet a lot of us. us have just allowed the responsibilities and the serious of life to sort of affect our childlike spirits. And when we have fun again, often the love grows again. I loved what you said earlier as well about having the confidence to be honest. And I think in relationships, sometimes we don't say something because either the way we say it sparks an argument. So we think, oh, I'm going to give

up to say something. but actually you've got to keep talking. We always say never ignore a niggle. So if something's still niggling you, you can just keep going back, talk it through until the niggle's gone. It's really smart, yeah. Because in past relationships,

the niggle would be there, and I think, I can't go and revisit that. But the niggle would just grow into something bad, you know, and it would become a big thing, and then you can't go back. So it's like if you've got an issue, you know, sort it out at the time. Get it done and leave it behind you. But that's a lot to do with communication and how I communicate in a way that's non-inflammatory or kind of, it's like, could we just talk about that again?

Because I haven't quite let it go, you know. And so it's just about learning. But that's what's interesting about getting older. the older I get, the more I learn, the happier I am in myself. Yeah, it's... And just on that point, if I could, DeVine, it's like, let us not be resentment collectors. Yes, well, this is it. That's exactly what I mean.

And when we don't speak, whether it's to our intimate partner, or maybe we're in a restaurant and the food was cold and the service was bad. And, of course, you have to pick your battles. Yes. But our society says don't speak up. And so what we do is we build the resentment inside of us and the anger bills and we take it out in toxic ways. And you're right. We're not trained how to communicate in a relationship or in the world. If you're in a restaurant, the food isn't good. You don't have to yell. You don't have to scream. You don't have to be rude. One of the key principles I believe in communication is you can say whatever you want so long as you say it with respect. And you might just. You might just. You might just. You just say to the server, you know what, I've heard such great things about this restaurant. And I just had a bad experience today. And I wanted to share it with you. I'm sure you did your best. But I felt, you know, it was inattentive and the food was quite cold. I'm wondering if there's a solution you could provide for me because I'd love to come back here.

99% of the time, I think if you language it in a respectful way, you're going to get a great solution and probably have a new best friend. I mean, talking about best friends, just very quickly you have mentioned about getting rid of toxic people in your life. And I think that when we're young, we put up with a lot of difficult friendships or sometimes they're historical friendships from childhood and you feel like you want to keep them. But I think as we get older, we understand how poisonous they are. Why is it important to not surround ourselves with or keep toxic people near us? I think you can be happy or be around energy vampire. you can't do both. There's a model that I have called Joy as a GPS. I talk about it in the

deep magic of daily consistency. It's really powerful for consistency and happiness. And here's basically what it means. Joy is a directional system. Joy is like a GPS. And if we were to imagine the model, it would have people, places, and pursuits in it, a circle with people, places, and pursuits. And the idea behind it is, ask yourself, which people bring me joy. And those are the people to bring close. Then also ask yourself, who are the people that steal my joy? The people who, every time you say, you know what, I'm going to do this after listening to this podcast episode. Or I just read a book and here's what I'm going to do. I just got an idea last night. And I'm going to launch a business. And they go, come on, be reasonable. That will never work. Oh, that's.

silly, you're going to fail. So strip those people out. And then the second part of joy as a GPS is places. Go to the places that bring you joy, whether it's a new city, a new country, or an art gallery where every time you walk into the Tate modern, you just come alive. I've never thought about places. Wow, that's, that's mega. I love that. I am so influenced by places. I will walk into a hotel room if the light is right. right, if there's a kind of wood table, I feel in spot. It makes you feel good. Yeah.

So why not trust your joy as a GPS around people, around places, and even the last part of the model is pursuits. As much as possible, do the things that bring you joy and outsource the things that steal your joy. Because you might not like whatever, but there's someone on the planet who's like, who gets lit up by doing the thing you don't like to do. So energy vampires, if you want to completely change your life, ask yourself, who must I let go of? Then people always say to me, but what if it's my mother? What if it's grandpa? What if it's my best friend?

Recent season lifetime. Some people come into our lives for a reason, some for a season. A few get to hang with us for a lifetime. But if there is someone who is constantly stealing your joy and toxic, even if it's a family member, I would say let them go. and love them from afar? Family members are a difficult one, isn't it? I think people feel, I mean, I was estranged from my mom towards the end, and I got quite severely judged for that by other people. I mean, I felt comfortable in my decision, but I feel like it's quite a tough one for people to do, isn't it?

I think it's our lives and I think living is not a popularity contest and if it was right for you who cares what anyone else thinks an opinion is just an opinion. Robin, I am going to now thank you for giving me the best ever like I just loved our chat. Thank you. I had, I've already put you on a pedestal, but I'm glad that I can leave you there and shut up at you, none. So it was amazing talking to you. I've absolutely had the best, best, best time ever and learnt so much.

I'm going to go back and watch this again. with a pen and paper. Yeah, it was lovely. And thank you so much for my artwork. That meant a lot. It was a pleasure. I've had an amazing time as well. You took me to places I usually don't talk about

or I didn't think we'd go to. But thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. I've got to be honest. This morning, I was really nervous about interviewing Robin. He felt like someone I had such enormous respect for and have learnt so much from already.

And I wanted to do him justice. And I kind of lay in bed and I thought, well, what would Robin do? And I thought about his oppositional thinking and I thought, let's change those nerves into excitement. This is going to be an amazing opportunity to speak to somebody that you have so much love and respect for. Anyway, he turns up and he's done a piece of artwork for me. And this morning with Michael, I was talking about faith and spirituality.

And Robin and Howard would love to kind of talk about that. And he's written the word faith here. And look at this gorgeous piece of artwork and grace is good. I just, I just can't believe it. So look, when you watch or listen to this, I would really strongly advise there are so many golden nuggets that will change your life for the better that I would really recommend you going to get a note. and a pen and jotting things down as you go.

And then you can keep that notebook and pen as your journal, which I'm going to start doing, because that was a big piece of information, a golden nugget, as I was saying, that can change your life for the better, for sure, journaling. And I'm definitely going to start doing that. And I love the fact that he takes his journal everywhere. You know, he'll journal about everything.

It's almost like a scrapbook, like he'll stick things in. He has a glue stick and a journal and a pen. I might just copy that.