Begin Again with Davina McCall - The Press Shamed Me So Much I Left The Country | Amanda de Cadenet

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Amanda de Cadenet became famous as a teenager, but behind the headlines was a young girl trying to survive. This is the story of the woman behind the image. In this episode of Begin Again, Amanda de Cadenet joins Davina to talk about fame, shame, care, motherhood, sobriety, recovery, and what it means to finally tell your own story. Amanda opens up about growing up fast in the public eye, going out clubbing at 14, being surrounded by older men, and trying to act like an adult long before she was ready. She reflects on the pain of feeling unprotected, the shame she carried as a young woman, and how being put into care while already famous became one of the most frightening and defining experiences of her life. Davina and Amanda also explore the brutal reality of press intrusion, from paparazzi outside her school and care home to the tabloid body-shaming that eventually pushed her to leave the UK and start again in Los Angeles. Amanda speaks honestly about becoming a mother at 19, getting sober, breaking generational cycles, and why her daughter helped save her life. They also discuss Amanda’s work as a photographer, storyteller and advocate for women, including how her own experiences of postpartum depression, grief and shame led her to create spaces where women could speak openly about the things they had been taught to hide. At its heart, this is a conversation about survival, self-forgiveness, and reclaiming the parts of yourself that the world tried to define for you. Amanda de Cadenet reminds us that shame can only survive in silence, and that sometimes beginning again means finally telling the truth in your own words. 🌟 Like, comment, and subscribe for more honest conversations about identity, growth, and beginning again. Tap the bell to stay connected with new episodes of Begin Again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Follow Amanda de Cadenet: https://www.instagram.com/amandadecadenet/  ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for all your behind the scenes access, recommendations and much much more at: https://linkly.link/2g2xm (00:00) Intro (01:31) How Amanda And Davina First Met (02:16) Why Clubbing At 14 Changed Everything (03:32) How Absent Parents Shaped Amanda’s London Upbringing (08:48) What Happens When Vulnerability Meets Predatory Men (11:20) How Drugs And Alcohol Entered Amanda’s Life So Young (13:19) SexualAssault At 14 (14:54) Why Amanda Went Into Care After Being Arrested (26:23) How Amanda Began A Relationship With Duran Duran’s John Taylor (28:00) What Hosting The Word Really Meant For Amanda (32:31) Why Media Harassment Pushed Amanda To Leave The UK (35:15) How Atlanta Saved Amanda’s Life (36:53) What Getting Sober Finally Made Possible (38:23) How Amanda Started Over In America Without Fame (40:21) How Amanda Found Her Passion For Photography (44:31) When Amanda Photographed Keanu Reeves For Vogue (45:59) The Real Story Behind The Conversation With Demi Moore (53:31) How Grief Led Amanda To Become A Counselor (58:21) Amanda’s Advice For Processing Grief In A Healthy Way Sponsored by: Do Health - The waitlist is open. Begin Again listeners get fixed early access pricing when they sign up today at dohealth.co/beginagain use code BEGINAGAIN Saily - Download from the app store and use code DAVINA at the checkout for 15% off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Spotify, Apple. advertising. You're among fans. I left the UK as a massive trauma response to being tabloid fodder at such a young age. I was determined to have a life that was different than the one that was expected of me. Amanda D'Cadne, you are an absolute boss bitch. You were a wild child, but you were so independent. I was 15 when I got my job hosting the word. I definitely learned to take care of myself at young age.

out of necessity. There was paparazzi trying to photograph me in the care home at my school. That was completely bonkers that you were that young. It feels like you withstood horrific amounts of press intrusion. I had Atlanta, my daughter at 19, and the media was so brutal about my body post-pregnancy. Amanda deflavenate, horrible body shaming. I was wrapped up in my consumption of drugs and alcohol. And I said, I've got to get out of here. I can't take this. I got sober at 20. But what I realized was, I'm a storyteller, and I loved photography. I was on the cover of GQ at the time, and I went in with like a little box of photos to say, hi, here's my work.

Would you hire me as a photographer? You're such a hustler. I love you. How did the conversation start? The conversation TV series. Yeah. And I basically ask women, please come to my house and we're going to talk about difficult issues for women. I can sit opposite Jane Fonda, Hillary Clinton, Miley Cyrus.

And it's proof that if you have an idea, you can make something. And sometimes you just have to say. Amanda D'Cadne. I am so happy to have you here in front of me. Because, well, not only are we good, very good old friends. Old friends. I was thinking about how old I was when I met you. I was 14.

And you were my model booker. Yeah, and I was 19. And it was the beginning of my career. Like very beginning. And you were just fantastic. I mean, what a career. you've had. Okay, I'm not going to interview you. I'm sorry. But I think what is interesting is that I saw so much of myself, even back then, I felt really at 19, maternal towards you

because I had been where you'd been. I started going out at 14, 15. And you were going out clubbing at that age. Yeah, crazy. So could you just explain to sort of anybody watching now? Because it's so different now. Yeah. What life was like for a young girl trying to get into a nightclub? It was actually quite easy.

Yes. Because I looked older than I was. I started developing boobs when I was like 12. And so I suddenly went from being invisible to very visible because I was super curvy. And it was very easy to get into clubs. You know, no one asked for an ID. Ever. Never. Never, ever, ever.

And in many ways, it was like, you know, I'm like the last generation before the internet. And thank God, because my stuff was on the cover of all the tabloids. If the internet had been around, it would have been even worse than what it was. So, I mean, I think in many ways, there was a lot of fun that was had. Although when I think about, like, my kids at 14 going out to clubs and the people, It was a lot of older men that I was around. And of course, they want young girls in clubs. So they're like, yeah, come on in.

When I think back to you, you particularly were very vulnerable, but at the same time really wanting to be seen as a grown-up and enjoying the kind of attention, which was the same, I totally get that. But I'd like to just go back to your parents because I, I sometimes think like, but where were they? What was going on? That's what I thought as well. Yeah. So what was it like for you growing up before they got divorced? You know, it's interesting because being back in London, I have a story on so many street corners here. Do you know what I mean? There's so many streets that I go to my, oh my God, I did this, this and this here. And that's been one of the reasons why I've stayed away for so long because I didn't know that I could handle being back here. You know, I sort of left the UK as a massive trauma response. to being, you know, tabloid fodder at such a young age, which was so detrimental to my sense of self.

So I didn't come back here for years. But I've really loved walking around and just remembering all the different experiences I had. And I've been thinking, where were my parents, you know? My dad was, you know, racing cars. He was a race car driver and that was his passion. And he was mega, right? He was amazing. He was, you know, he was a brilliant, charismatic, you know, innovator that kind of,

really came from not a lot and made a life for himself. And so his first passion was racing cars. And it remained that way throughout my life. You know, so he was, he was off having a career. And I think my mom couldn't really cope with me. I think, you know, when I was, teenagers are difficult, you know. And in hindsight, I don't think I was any more difficult than what the average teenager is. I have to say, now having raised three teenagers, I'm not particularly alarmed by how I was at that age, given my own kids. But I just think she didn't have the resilience and the support to be a single mom raising a teenager, you know. So, I mean, your dad was off racing, but she had a kid and she was at home trying to bring you up basically alone.

Yes. And didn't and really just didn't have the, you know, the thing about generational trauma. is that, you know, if you're raised by people who weren't raised by people, who weren't raised by people, how the fuck do they know what to do? They're just going on instincts, you know? And so she did what she could based on what she knew, which was not a lot. She wasn't raised by anyone. And that person wasn't raised by anyone. That person was raised by nannies and that person was raised by nannies.

So it kind of makes sense. I mean, it's interesting as well because for you, and I'm, please tell me if I'm wrong, but this was my experience. When I was in France and there were no boundaries, I was like, oh, this is great. Oh, yeah, of course. I can go out. Yeah. Like whenever I want.

Yeah. I mean, I think having boundaries, I don't know how different my life would have been. I think my mother tried to put boundaries in, but I just went straight over them. You know, I was, I was forceful and I was determined to have a life that was different than the one. that was expected of me, you know. And so I was very committed to building a life for myself. I wanted to be financially independent from a young age. I did not want to rely on anyone.

What made you want that? Had you seen something where you were like, hang on a minute, my mum is reliant on my dad. Yes. When my parents separated, my mother did not know. She didn't have any skills. She did not know how to provide for my brother and I financially. And so she went from this kind of like bougie Chelsea life to like working in, you know, the chippy down the road.

And it was really shocking for her and it was a huge adjustment. And I saw that and I thought I will never be reliant upon someone else to provide for me. And, you know, I was 15 when I got my. job hosting the word. I mean. And I was so grateful because I could then buy my own school shoes. You know what I mean? It was like I was like I've now got income and I can provide for myself. And it was that's why I talk to women a lot about about financial autonomy and how important it is. Even if you're in a partnership, like have your own bank account, do your own bills, write your own checks, balance your own accounts, like really learn financial literate, be financially literate

so that you can make the choices you want in your life. You can have the freedom to say, I don't have to stay here because I can afford to leave or I don't have to stay in this job that is undermining me or not paying me enough because I can afford to go and do a job somewhere else. And I think that is one of the greatest freedoms. And I saw that early on. Early on, I was like, I must have that. How vulnerable were you to predatory men? Because you were saying you were out 14. Yeah.

It's a dangerous place to be. Yeah. We all know that from that time, right? Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I definitely was independent and I definitely, you know, learn to take care of myself at a young age out of necessity. I think I was very looking back. I think I was definitely in situations that were non-consensual because as a 14-year-old girl, you don't really have the wherewithal to know what you're consenting to when you're with men who are much older.

And it's interesting because my beloved Tarana Burke is the founder of the Me Too movement and I've been active with that initiative. And there were many stories that came back to me where I was like, ha, that was non-consensual. That was non-consensual. What does consent mean? And, you know, I just decided to not follow up on any of those things for my own personal reasons.

But I think I was very susceptible because I wanted to belong to someone, you know? Like I had this feeling. of like, will someone please take ownership of me because I'm a kid, I'm 14, and I'm not getting parented and I don't know who I belong to. So I knew that kind of being an independent person and giving the vibe that I didn't need anyone was the way to go. But I don't think that's how I really felt inside. Yeah. This might be a bit sad. Yes, it's sad. It's very sad. It's such a vulnerable place to be, isn't it?

Yeah. You know, and I guess I'm identifying with you where you get yourself into situations and you don't know what's going on and you're still trying to pretend to be an adult. Yeah. But you're suddenly feeling very vulnerable and then you decide not to do anything about it.

I'm still like that, though. Well, you know who I think was so inspiring? I don't know what it did for you in terms of things that have happened. to you in the past was Giselle Pelican. Oh my God, I mean. That her talking brought, did it bring up stuff for you? Yes.

Stuff for you. It really did for me. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I think, you know, a big part of my story, as you know, is that there's kind of before I got sober and after I got sober. Same here. Yeah. And everything that kind of happened before, I got sober at 22.

Everything that happened before was largely. wrapped up in my consumption of drugs and alcohol. You know, so my decision making was very reactive instead of from a mindful place. And it was really just about survival. And so a lot of the choices I made were just because I was trying to survive. And then once I got sober at 22, I was the first time that I had real agency over myself, where it was like, hmm, hang on a minute. Do I want to do this thing?

What are the consequences if I do this? What are the pros and cons? And I, for the first time in my life, had a kind of mindfulness that I had never experienced before. Because when you're drinking and doing a lot of drugs, you just don't have the same agency over yourself. So that was kind of, I look at my life as like before sobriety and then after sobriety. I think another very sad thing of before sobriety is the situations that I, and I will talk about myself here, that I got into that I was young and I basically thought that it was my fault

because I'd let myself get into that dangerous situation and somebody had taken advantage of me. And I think, well, it's your fault, you know, don't do that again. And that's how I thought all my life. I mean, I realized when I was older, have you like had, maybe therapy where you've kind of gone, God, like all my life, I kind of blame myself for taking these decisions. Or did you know at the time, oh, I know this is wrong. I need to get away. I didn't know at the time. I mean, I experienced, when I was 14 years old, I experienced a

sexual assault at, you know, a party in the country in England. And I remember coming back on the train with my clothes all ripped and I didn't tell anybody because I thought if I told my mom, she's going to say, I told you you shouldn't have gone out. And so that person, I used to see them on the street afterwards. And I had this terrible... The person that assaulted you. Yeah. I had a terrible feeling of shame that it was like, like, it was like a feeling in my stomach of like this being so small and that I had done something wrong. And I came to realize when I got sober and I did a lot of work around, around, you know, a sex inventory, basically, that that was not my fault.

And it actually was the responsibility of the man who chose to do that despite me saying, no, I don't want to do that. And so I don't feel like I've taken ownership of that. I've done a lot of therapy and a lot of work on freeing myself from being. And also, I don't feel victimized.

You know, I've done a lot of work to kind of understand and have compassion for myself that as that 14-year-old girl, I was doing the best I could do. You know, and I made the choices I made, you know, and really to have compassion for myself. You know, Amanda was a 14-year-old girl who was really desperate for attention and really wanted to be admired and loved and seen. And that led me down paths that were not healthy. I was very shocked to hear about you going into care.

I never knew that. Can you just explain how that happened? Yeah, it's kind of shocking, actually. And it's only now I'm writing a book at the moment. And it's only now when I work with my editor. And she's like, wait, you were in a children's home. You were a ward of court. What? That I'm kind of realizing the gravity and the impact that that had on me. So I was, I moved out of my house, my mother's house. And it was very difficult to live with my mother at the time. She had her own emotional struggles going. on and I... How old were you at that I was 14. I mean, almost 15. Yeah. It's nuts to think that. Where did you go?

I went to, I stayed at different friends' houses. I remember sleeping under my best friend's desk with a pillow at one point. I mean, at her mom's house. It's nuts, isn't it? No, it's nuts. If any of our kids did this, it'd be like, I'd never allow it. But I basically was arrested and I was, because I was reported as a missing person, which I wasn't, because my parents knew where I was.

but I was, it's a long story that I'm writing about at the moment, but I will say that I was made a ward of court, meaning that your parents no longer have jurisdiction of you. Because was this because you were arrested and they were like, where are your parents? Yes. Why are you not living with your parents if they're not looking after you? Yes, exactly.

Okay, so, but did your mum go, I want to look after her? No, my mom. And I've been reading all the social workers' records at the moment. How's that? It's fascinating. It's really filling in the blanks for me in some areas that therapy couldn't because I'm getting to read the psychologist and the therapist notes and observations of me and things that I said and my parents and our interactions.

Wow. I've been able to put a lot together and it's been really helpful. But spending time at White City Children's Home was when I was, you know, a very public person. And on, you know, there was, I was on the cover of a lot of times. tabloids and, you know, there were TV shows talking about what had happened to me, that I had gone into care. It was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. And it was also a phenomenal gift because it taught me in no uncertain terms that no matter what our Zipcode is, we're all having a human experience.

And we're all trying to live life. and, you know, some of us just have more support and tools than others. And so I saw kids that came from very different backgrounds to me and were in there for very different reasons to me, but that they felt in a very similar way to the way I did. And so I learned to connect with people through their emotional experience as opposed to the outside stuff. You know, maybe I had like, you know, fancy issues,

but the way we felt was very similar. And it was my first exposure to, to really understanding that, you know, humanity and life experiences are what connect all of us, you know, whether you're driving like, you know, whatever car you're driving or zip code you live in, you're not exempt from life's experiences. And it taught me that and it taught me how to pretty much connect with anyone. I can find something similar about practically anyone. If I'm on the tube or I'm waiting in line for a coffee or wherever I meet random people,

If I talk long enough, I'll find some common ground with anybody. And it taught me that. And I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to learn that. God, Amanda, can I just already say, what a life. What have no wonder I'm tired. I had no idea of what we were sort of superficially connected, partying, Yes. Plubbing, modelling, superficial.

But I just, I'm sort of sitting here going like, what I love? Yeah, I know. I feel such compassion for little you. Little Amanda. Yeah. I know. You talked about going into care and about how seeing all these different people from different places, but you're all the same. Yeah.

But you were very different in that you were famous. and none of them probably were. How did you navigate that? Because that's really hard. And also, did you, because I knew you then, you were out all the time, but were you allowed out when you were in care? Did you go clubbing?

No, no, no, no. I was driven to school every day in a police van to Holland Park Comprehensive and the police would bring me in up to my classroom and I would have to do my classes and then the end of the class said, walk me to the next class. And then at the end of the day, I was taken back to the care home.

And it was very odd because there was a lot of media tension and a lot of, you know, paparazzi trying to photograph me in the care home at my school. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean, like, that is just nuts. It was nuts. Like the shame, talk about shame, you know. Like it was, I just felt like there was a sort of light, a beacon pointing at me all the time. Like, look at her, you know, she's done all these things that are.

are unacceptable. But the thing is at the time, you're just like, you're just trying to survive. Like, I was in survival mode for so long. Yes. That it's only really now and in writing this book that I'm sort of really connecting with how traumatic and scary that was, you know, for, you know, 14, 15 year old Amanda to be in that situation. But I was so used to being in scary situations that I think I just toughed it out and just, you know, just got through. You know, when you're just in survival mode, you're just like, I just need to get through the day, you know, and just because, and I've also realized just because I can handle a lot, it doesn't mean that I have to. And so now, when things get to be kind of, you know, the first stage of a lot,

I'm like, okay, I don't have to do this. I can stop as opposed to, oh, I can take a lot more. you know, because I've been conditioned to take a lot more because of my life experience. But I don't have to do that anymore. That is very interesting, isn't it? Resilience also comes with a burden of like, I can do anything but actually don't. Exactly. It's a burden. One of the lovely things about being in London right now, and I was saying this to Ella, my daughter, who's 19,

because Ella hasn't really been with me in London as an adult. And so she was like, Mom, all these people come up to you and say, you know, and are excited to meet you. And Ella's got no clue what my life was like here because she lives with me in L.A. And you're just mom. Yeah, I'm just her and my mother. Yeah. But what is so lovely being here now is that it's the first time that I've been back here in so long where, like, I'm not really a famous person anymore. There's people that grew up with me on TV.

So they come up to me and are sweet and lovely and excited. And then anyone who's like, you know, under 40, like doesn't know anything about me. And so it's so nice to be able to walk around. And I've noticed that I don't look at the ground when I walk around. I look up and I can meet people's eyes without that flicker of recognition. And that flicker of recognition for so many years would induce a feeling of shame inside me. Oh. And so I just couldn't come here.

And so it's been so freeing to be able to be here. And A, I've dealt with that shame and understood that, you know, I have compassion for myself as that young person, that young woman. And that just people don't know my, don't know my history, you know. And it's been a whole different experience. And it's been, it's been lovely, you know. I'm like, I don't really want to go back to L.A. I think I could stay here a bit longer. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Maybe. Don't go back. I know, I might stay a bit longer. Yeah. Yes! I know.

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Every style, every home. God, amazing. I'm going to do like a women's circle. Yeah, great. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Isn't it funny? how we work differently now. Every night I go to bed listening to Ram Dass. Yes, I know. I know. Same.

I've got my deep, my deep sleep, 485 kilohertz music to sleep to, you know. I know. It's really crazy. Frequencies. Yes. They're really helpful. They're really helpful. When you came out of care, how long did they keep you in there for?

I don't really know because I don't remember. And I've been thinking about this. Yeah. I mean, when I, when I, I got out of care, I, you know, it's interesting because I think of my life as before sobriety and after sobriety, but I also think of it in terms of relationships. I've partnered with Do Health for this episode, and I want to tell you why. 46% of Do Health members showed signs of hidden cardiovascular risk after doing their blood test. 46%.

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Not more worry. It's a way forward. Go to dohealth.com slash begin again and use code begin again to lock in early access pricing. Do you know what an e-sim is? Be honest. It does the same job as a physical sim, but it's built into your phone digitally. And Sayley, who's supposed to... sponsors begin again is an ESIM app that I love because it gives you a safe, secure internet

data connection overseas without having to pay expensive roaming fees. It's available in over 200 destinations and it comes with built-in cybersecurity. But the best part is that it lets you change your online location to home while you're away. If you've been watching a show, for example, then you go on holiday and suddenly you can't access it anymore. Well, we're sailing. you can. Give it a try. Download Saley in the App Store or by scanning the QR code that's on your screen right now. And for a cheeky 15% off your first purchase, you can use the code Davina at checkout. That's Davina for 15% off. I've had mainly kind of four relationships. I'm like a serial monogamist. And my first

husband, John Taylor, who I had my daughter, Atlanta with, I met him right with. I met him right when I came out of care. And I said to him, look, you might have to adopt me so that I don't go back in the care home because they basically told me. What? Yeah. Hang on, that's just so, wait, that's so blown my mind.

You, John, you said to John Taylor that he might have to adopt you in case you had to go back into care. Yes, I was terrified. So how old were you when you met John? I was 16. God, so. Yeah.

I mean, legal. allowed to be, yeah, we got married instead. And that, that sorted that out. But, you know, I'm so grateful that I met him. How did you meet? I met him at a play, a matinee play, because I had to be back by 6pm. It was sort of like house arrest after I got out.

And I really love kind people. Yes. I love kind people. And he was very gentle with me and very kind. So, I mean, that's. I've picked that in my partners. They're all very decent people and who their kind of moral compass

is in a direction that I respect. And so I was lucky enough to be able to meet him and kind of start a new life. You know, it was like care, all that tabloid craziness, then, you know, hosting the word. I needed a job.

I had to get a job when I got out of care. How did you get the word? Because that was absolutely mega. completely bonkers that you were that young on telly. I was on live telly and it was, again, it was normal for me, you know, it's crazy. I mean, I remember just like, and we had no delay. We had no delay. So you could, if you said, fuck, it was on TV at that time, you know.

It was great. And I love, like, it has prepared me so well for life because, you know, at that time, it's like, you've got an earpiece and they're counting you down and there's a million people watching you, you know, live on TV and you're like, wait, who am I talking to? What am I doing? And you just wing it. It's taught me how to just wing life because you can feel such nerves and terror, but you're like, I got to fucking do it because I'm live, you know. And it really prepared me for life in a great way. And also, I think you were great with just hustling with whatever was happening. Yes. You know, you could just adapt. Because look at my training for life. I had to just adapt.

You know what I mean? And so I was a great person to host live TV because whatever happened, I could just handle it, you know. And so it's been a great training for life. Again, like, you know, all these things make sense the older you get where you're like, oh, I see what that taught me. Right. I see why that needed to happen. It taught me this thing, you know, and I've just had that over and over again. Has writing the book been good for that?

It has been really good for that. Connecting the dots, you know. and seeing stuff in black and white. It's like doing an inventory in many ways. Yes. You know. Can you explain to people what an inventory is? Oh, an inventory is so wonderful.

It's the same way as like a business can't stay in business without taking stock of, you know, what's working and what isn't. And it's an inventory is what we do in recovery on ourselves. What aspects of us as a human being are working? What isn't? What is a defect? What is something that is really holding me back or sabotage? myself and it's a way to look at everything written down on a page and go, oh, right, I see a pattern that's really negative here in my life and I need to really be mindful of changing that.

How do I change that? Because that's not serving me. Oh, I've got this amazing asset over here that I've been developing that is really moving me forward in a direction that I want. Let me spend more time doing that and less time doing that. And I love doing inventories because it lets me really see where I'm at a way. in a very honest, unbiased way. And I share it with somebody else who then it removes the shame because most often

than not, they're like, oh, yeah, I did that too. And you're like, really? And they're like, yeah. And you're like, oh, great. You know, it just frees yourself up from more shame, basically. And it allows you to move forward with more intentionality. That's the thing. It's like, I don't want to be reactive.

I want to be responsive with what I do in life. So I listen to myself. It doesn't matter what other people have to say about it. It's like how do I feel about it? And do I feel good about who I am in the world, whether anyone knows about it or not? You know, in private, do I feel good? And there's things I feel great about and there's things that I definitely keep working on and have to improve. You know, and my kids, you know, remind me of those things.

They're humbling kids. They are. Oh, my God. They really are. But my kids just take the piss out of me using a phone so badly. Why? Oh my God, the way I text, the way I dictate messages. So do I.

Because it's just easier. I know. Same. I've got long nails as well. And they're going full stop, comma. That's what mine do. That's what mine do. Mine do the same thing.

Oh my God. It's so funny. But our kids, they put up with a lot. They do. And my kids have been very clear. about, you know, what the boundaries are. And how is it for you? Because you're very respectful of that, right?

I am, but it's difficult because there's things that I think would be helpful for other people. Like my family know that I use my life experiences and I try to make it into something that will be helpful for other people. And that at times might include them. And so it's a fine line that I walk.

And that's an ongoing discussion, you know, of what that line is. I think for anybody kind of of later generations watching this or listening to this might be interested to hear what press intrusion was like back when you were famous, when you were really, really famous. I mean, you're famous now, but when you were like when it was unbearable.

Yeah. Because you actually ended up leaving the UK because it was just too much with John. I did. What was it like before you left? How bad was it? Can you give a sense? some kind of examples.

I mean, for a young person, at the time I was, I was, I had Atlanta, my daughter at 19. And I think the combination of a member of Duran Duran being married to, you know, television presenter Amanda Ducadenae was just like a match made in tabloid heaven. The combination of us was very intense. And Atlanta was less than a year old. And the media was so brutal. about my body post-pregnancy. And there was the worst photos of me.

I mean, you can't imagine that. And headlines, you know, Amanda de Flabeney. And just like horrible, horrible body shaming. And I remember I was breastfeeding in the park by where I lived. And not like with my boobs out, like discreetly breastfeeding. And I guess paparazzi got photos of those pictures and put them on blast. And just to say, so people know, you couldn't. You never saw the paparazzi.

You would know that they were taking pictures. People would go like, oh, well, they knew. You don't know. You don't know. They are brilliant at hiding. Really good at it. And they can take them from miles away. Yeah.

I mean, it was bad enough that I was telling Ella, my daughter, because I walked past my old house that I used to live in. And I said, that's where I used to live with John and Atlanta. And I said, you know, I left this lovely house in Notting Hill with food in the fridge and laundry in the hamper. And I said to him, I've got to get out of here. I can't take this.

And we went on a holiday to L.A. And I never went back. Wow. And so my house had to get packed up and shipped to Los Angeles. And I didn't come back here for 10 years. Wow. Yeah.

It's such a shame. It's such a shame because, you know, there's so many wonderful things about being here and so many old friends. And my career, left my career. Like, I really just, like, got up and left. And it's only kind of through all the work that I've done, all the different therapies that I've done, you know, that I've been able to kind of heal a lot of that pain from that period of time when I used to live here, you know. How much did having Atlanta help you, like, it feels like you withdrewing, horrific amounts of press intrusion?

Yeah, I did. But then you had Atlanta and it was like, okay, not okay anymore. Yeah, it was just done for me. What was it about having Atlanta that changed? I think having a daughter at 19 allowed me to get my focus off of myself and onto someone else, which is always helpful. It's so unhealthy to be a person who has that much attention on them because then you're focusing on yourself to such a degree that's all you think about. And so to have Atlanta and to be able to think about someone else and to want to protect her and take care of her

in a way that I didn't feel like I had had and I just didn't want anyone photographing her. Nice. I think she saved my life in many ways. Yeah, I did. Breaking that generational cycle. And Atlanta saved my life, you know. She really did.

She, I don't know if I had stayed here and not left and gotten sober, I wouldn't have gotten sober if I hadn't have had her. I got sober when I was pregnant with her and I stayed sober because I wanted her to have a conscious mother. And I don't know that I would have survived had I not have had her. So I kind of thank her with so much gratitude for my life, really. She kind of gave me a life that I, a trajectory that I wasn't on.

And I truly think as well as having Atlanta getting so, and going into recovery, like proper recovery at 22. At 19, which is when I was pregnant with Atlanta, I just stopped drinking and doing drugs. But I went into recovery, meaning I actually got a program and I got into a support system that gave me a structure that I had never had and gave me a community that I had never had. And that is what really changed my life, you know.

And if you change your life, you are giving yourself the best opportunity to not drink again. Exactly. And for a long time, I didn't understand that I could have help to stop. I just thought, I'm a strong person. I'm a capable person. I've got phenomenal willpower. Look at my life. Why can't I stop doing this? And I didn't understand the nature of addiction is that it doesn't matter how strong you are and how smart you are. You know, addiction and alcoholism is not discerning and it will outsmart even the smartest of us. And so being able to be in a recovery community, has been the bedrock of my life. Absolutely. Without that, it's at the centre of every single thing I do go through the filter of recovery.

And it's given me an internal support system and tools that I live by daily, you know, for 22 years now. Congratulations. Thank you. Well done. Thank you. Yeah.

I mean, when you moved, you like literally left everything behind and just got on a plane and left and went to America. Did, were you famous in America at all? Did you just start completely from scratch? I started completely from scratch. It was terrifying and it was exciting. And I, you know, I had gone from this kind of big high profile life and hosting live late night television. Overwhelming, like.

So much to like being an anonymous person. And I remember buying a car that was like a $2,000 car that kept breaking down. And I had a new baby. And we were renting like two bedrooms out of this person's house in Laurel Canyon. And it was the most kind of happy I had been. Isn't that funny? Yeah. I was so happy to just, it was like that felt genuine to me, you know.

And it was so needed. It was like, I need to find out who I am without how. having an identity thrust upon me, you know? And I think that's, that's, we didn't have social media then. So I couldn't communicate to the world who I really was. There was, it was a one-way conversation and it was with what the media put out. You couldn't respond. There was no way of responding.

Yes. And so you had an identity thrust upon you. You couldn't write the wrongs. You couldn't. And so that's also what's great about about this book is that I'm able to tell my story. from my perspective. And that has been so freeing, you know. One of the first gifts of sobriety was about a year after I got to America,

I was so grateful to be able to just like live a normal life and find out what that was. And did I enjoy that? Or did I miss being that person that was on TV and very known? And I didn't miss it. But what I realized was around 22 when I got into recovery. was around 23 that I realized that actually like I'm a storyteller. Yes. What is it about me?

I'm a communicator. I'm a storyteller. And I loved photography. And I had been photographed by some of the most phenomenal photographers in the world. You name some because they are, you have really. Yeah. So two of my favorites are Mario Serenti and Glenn Lutchford, who I just love so much. They're amazing.

Both of those guys are brilliant, aren't they? Yeah. And I would ask photographers. so many questions. Like, what is that like? Sophia Coppola photographed me a lot. Wow. And so I was always asking them, like, what film do you use? What camera is that? What lens is that? And so when I was about 23, I discovered, actually, I do want to tell stories that matter. I just don't want it to be my face and my voice. Yes. And so that was another pivot where I actually became a photographer. And I remember going into GQ magazine and I was on the

cover of GQ at the time and I went in with like a little box of photos that I had taken to meet the photo editor to say hi here's my work would you hire me as a photographer and everyone in the office was like oh our cover girl is in here but as a photographer and no one understood why I would choose put them in a box yes I love you they weren't in a book no they were in a box oh my god love you Amanda I didn't know I just didn't know no I love that and you were actually on the cover of GQ and here's a box of pictures. Exactly. Yes.

And I wanted them to hire me as a photographer. You're such a hustler. I love you. And I was not, I was so excited to have the meeting with the photo editor. And so unfortunately my first jobs as a photographer required me to be in the pictures. Right. Because people were like, okay, you can do self-portraits. And this is before selfies.

So you had to like load up your camera, focus your lens on something, put like a stand in. Yes. And then get them to move. and you had to jump in and press the cable on a clicker and take your own pictures. Wow. So those are my first jobs as a photographer. But it was such a relief to be able to tell stories through my perspective as opposed to my body and my physicality. And that was a brave decision.

Yeah, really. But it was just brought me so much joy because I got to photograph women in my community in a way that really showed a female perspective. because it was mostly men who were the top photographers that just weren't women who were in my age range. No. There were people who were much older. And I just didn't really have a path forward as a photographer. So I was like, I have to create the path where one doesn't exist

because the female perspective is invaluable. And women are not seeing ourselves portrayed by our own eyes. We're seeing ourselves portrayed through the male gaze. And there's nothing wrong with that, but we need balance. We need the female gaze too. I think that's what you do with your photographs. You can, you really tell a story. I want to.

That's what I try to do. With just an image, which is amazing. Thank you. I love photographing people. And my last book that I published was a mix of super high profile people and completely unknown people. Yes. Like I've got, you know, Orlando Bloom asleep on the sofa with a dog next to a man who I saw in Holland Park who, is deaf and he has a hearing aid

and he's got a cookie monster t-shirt on and I photograph them the same way with the same reverence and respect you know and I like to tell a story of who someone authentically is whether I'm interviewing them or photographing them I'm looking for that true essence of them

and I think that's what I give to people when I'm working with them whether I'm shooting them or interviewing them and that's what I'm looking for is that authentic honest connection of like, let me show you who I am and I want to know who you are genuinely, even if there's parts of you that you don't feel great about,

like it's all welcome here, you know? Talk me through the Vogue cover. So I photographed Keanu Reeves for the cover of Vogue. And it's a beautiful photograph. You know, I don't think he really likes being photographed. But I said, hey, this is something fun that we can do. And at the time, there was so, again, few women who were photographing.

You know, successfully at the time. And I love that photograph of him. It's a very authentic image of him as someone who's been photographed a lot. I just feel like he looks so comfortable in his eyes. Yeah. Like he's really like he feels safe. Yes. So it feels like, and not that I know, I've interviewed him once.

We were talking about this before. and I was like hoping that he was as nice as I think he was and you said he is. Yes, he's a very kind man. Yeah. Like I said. You got that. I did. I did.

And I think that photo of him really marks a time in his life and in my life. I love those photographs so much of him. We shot at his house and I was like, can you get in the pool? You know, and he was like, oh, okay, you know, all right, for you, I'll get in the pool. But I love that photo and I think it does show his true essence. Like I said, I have gravitated towards kind, genuine people in my life and he's definitely one of them. When did you meet Demi Moore and how did the conversation start? The conversation TV series, yeah, which is now my podcast.

So when I had my twins, I was 35 years old. So I had my first baby at 19 and then 14 years later, I had twins. I had twins and it was a very different. Just before we start on, yeah, I just want to talk to you about your experience second time round because obviously 19 was so young and then 34 you have learned so much in life. It was a lot harder. Oh, was it? Yeah, it was a lot harder because I knew so much more.

And twins. And twins, which was a beautiful surprise but I was like, oh my God, too. And so after that pregnancy, I had really severe postpartum. And at that time, which was 19 years ago, I could not find stories from women about postpartum. Nobody was talking about it. Could you just explain how did it manifest itself? And when did you know? And did Nick notice?

Did anybody see? Did your husband see? He did notice. And the people around me were like, maybe you need to get some extra help for this. Because I was breastfeeding twins. I breastfed them for a year. one of them for a year and one for six months. And I was exhausted and I felt like maybe this is just a new twin mom, but it was much deeper than that. It was like an apathy and a kind of like I really felt

like I couldn't bond with my kids. And it was a horrible feeling and I was very, very depressed. And I was desperately looking online for stories about post-pregnancy mental health issues. And I couldn't find it. And I thought, this is. crazy. Like I found some on some forums. Yes. You know, like buried. In those days, the forums thing, weren't they? And I was like, this is nuts. I mean, if I'm going through this, there have to be millions of other women who are. And how are they getting support? And so what I start, I thought, you know what, I'm going to find people who have talked about difficult issues for women and I'm going to talk about these things. And because I was a photographer, I knew how to light a room and I knew

how to use my cameras. And so in my community of women, I found out who were the people that could talk about these different things, whether it was Gwyneth Paltrow who talked about the death of her dad, or it was Mini Driver who talked about choosing to have a child by herself, or it was, who else did I talk to? I mean, that was, I'm thinking of the beginning interviews that I did. And I basically asked women, please come to my own. house and we're going to talk about this subject matter. And I filmed it myself. I lit it myself. And I found a friend who knew how to edit on the computer. And I did these interviews with the lens of let me have women talk about these things that are stigmatized. And I will put this online.

And therefore, the woman who is Googling postpartum mental health will find my interviews and will feel less alone. And so I was doing these interviews with women in my community and Demi, who is, you know, a soul family, you know, my, how do I describe DeMe? DeMe, is like chosen family. And so she said to me, what these interviews you're doing, you know, and I showed them to her. She said, wow, these are amazing. Can I help you to get them out in the world? And that's, you just love that.

Yes, that is women who really help other women who are like, I see you. Let me use what I have in the world to help you. And that was such a gift because we have the same manager. And she said, let's talk to Jason Weinberg about this. And Jason said, these are amazing. Let's sell this as a TV show. And initially, nobody wanted it before I had showed them the footage. People were like, yeah, right, you're going to get Lady Gaga to talk about cocaine addiction and self-harm.

And I was like, yeah, I am. I think it's really important. And I think she will talk about it. and no one believed that I was going to be able to do it. But do you know why you could? Why? Because of your life. Yes.

But your experience. Yes. It's like sitting in front of somebody who totally gets everything you're saying, whatever you say, whatever experience you've had, you've done it. That has been my experience largely. And it's been why I feel so grateful I've been able to turn all these life experience into something positive. I can sit opposite Jane Fonda, Hillary Clinton, Miley Cyrus, you know, and, you know, Camilla Harris and whoever these women are, and by the way, not just famous women, women from all walks of life. And most of the time they talk about an experience they've had that I can relate to myself.

And that is so incredible to be able to do that. And what happened with to me and Jason was we took it out. And once people saw the footage, then they wanted it. And at the time, no one really gave a shit about women and girls. And so we were fighting the media who were saying in America, it was like there's one network that's dedicated to women. And we've got one show talking to women. I was like, what? You know?

And so it was a fight, but we got this show licensed on 18 different networks around the world. It was on Sky in the UK. And I have to say when it was on Sky in the UK, I came back here. And I was so excited to talk to the women in media. And I was like, who are the women with their own shows here? I want to go talk to them and there weren't any. And that was so upsetting to me. I was like, I can't believe that, you know, 18 years later, 19 years later since I've left the UK.

Nothing's changed. Nothing's changed. There isn't a woman that is anchoring her own show. No. There's a show called Loose Women for fuck's sake. Why? Why call it Loose Women? Give them another name, that amazing group of women, you know.

And I was so disheartened. But that is why I made this show. I made the conversation because a show like that just wasn't existing in so many countries around the world. And it's proof that if you have an idea and that you're really committed, you can make something. We have technology and we have tools now that we can create so many things now without someone giving you permission to do it. Yes. And so when that show launched, it kind of established me as an interviewer in America. And I didn't mind being known for that because.

it was for a purpose. You know, it really was like I was able to be a conduit for all these incredible women's stories and things that they hadn't shared before publicly and to put those stories out in the world so that other women could relate. And that show is now a podcast because in COVID we had to stop filming. And it's done what I wanted it to do, which is that it has exposed so many women to choices and alternatives and tools that they can use and apply to their lives through the power of storytelling. How much healing has doing the conversation given you? I've had so much healing from doing

the conversation and being able to talk to people. The conversation mirrors what's going on in my life. Yeah. So the last three years, I've been really immersed in grief, culture. When my dad died three years ago, it was the beginning of me understanding that I needed to get intimate with grief. I had a series of losses that I learned is called compound grief, compounded grief. And at that time, I knew I had to learn more about grief because I didn't know what grief was. I had no idea that I was grieving and how multifaceted and multi-layered grieving is. And so I took a course to become certified as a grief counselor. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's amazing.

It was so beautiful to be grieving and to be able to be in a space of other people learning about grief and how to support people through grief. It helped me move through my grief. Can I just ask you, what is, could you explain what is compounded grief? Compounded grief is when you have a series of losses that ultimately were not your choice, one after the other. And I had multiple losses starting with the death of my death. dad in an 18 month period. And I had just, I was just about get my head above water and then I would get another, I had another loss and then I had another loss. And it's, you know, when you learn about grief, it is, you know, I'm doing a course right now to add to my certification about attachment based grief, which is so interesting. And it makes, it's so interesting. It makes sense to me that people grieve based on their sort of attachment styles. And you've got someone who's avoidant of their feelings. they're going to grieve in an avoidant way, which is they're going to push those uncomfortable feelings away and not deal with them. And they're going to come out sideways.

And if you've got someone who's got like a disorganized attachment style, they're going to have an ambivalent feeling towards grief. And their feelings and themselves. Wow. And so if you look at grieving through the attachment lens, which is something that I have spent a lot of time looking at because of my early childhood and the kind of attachment ruptures, it makes so much sense. you can help someone through their grief process if you understand how their attachment process works. It's just another lens to be able to look at grief. And so, you know, becoming intimate with grief has been phenomenal for me, you know, because in life we're experiencing, you know, big grief and little grief.

I mean, especially I think when people, I would say probably my followers are often around midlife. Yeah. And at a stage where we're going to less weddings and more funerals. Well, not only that, but like we have children leaving home. Yes. We have marriages dissolving. Yes. Of course there's not just death.

We've got careers ending. Yes. You know, changing. Wow. And so learning to grieve, learning to understand what grief is, whether it's, and by the way, even for someone who is leaving high school and is going to college, there's a grieving process. That's a little grief, little G, you know,

because we're experiencing grief at all stages of life and we just don't know that that's what's happening to us. And so, you know, my daughter, my eldest daughter got married. Yes, last year. It was amazing. Oh, well done. I know. I'm so proud of her.

And her husband is like, she has married. She's good. She did. She's married a man who is so kind and thoughtful and loving. And he's my other son and he's wonderful. He's about five years younger than me. And he's an amazing man and she's got a beautiful marriage.

And I'm so proud of her. And when your oldest daughter gets married and you had her at 19 and we've definitely had an emishment, there's a grief in that transition. You're no longer responsible for that adult. Now her husband has taken on the role because she's married. And so there's also a grieving that's a beautiful grieving in that process too. My eldest daughter Ella moved out and started her career.

There's a grief in that too. And I'm so proud of her and she's so brave, you know, for like setting her up and herself up in another country and starting to work. I wonder where she gets that from. Exactly. The best parts of my survival skills. But there's a grief in that too, you know. And so I think learning that it's okay to grieve and learning what grief looks like is really important. How should we process it in a healthy way? What do we do?

I mean, there's many different things that we can do. I think everyone is different. There isn't a kind of one size fits all. There are, there's the initial kind of talking to someone which connects you to your feelings. If you're talking, but you're not connecting to your feelings, it's not really going to help you. If you're trying to work it out and make sense of it just in your head alone, it's not going to move the emotion. The emotion is somatic. It's in your body. It's felt. And so when I talk about somatic therapy, it includes your body and your mind. And what are the ways that you can connect with your body? Being in nature, swimming, doing yoga, those are all things that put us into our bodies, as well as talking to someone.

There's also EMDR, which is a type of therapy where you're using eye movements to activate parts of the brain that store memory and emotion. And so you either do it through holding these tappers that vibrate or you do it through looking at a light that moves across in a horizontal motion like this. and there's something about that that vibrating pattern or that eye movement that access is stored and repressed emotion. And that's a really great way to connect with your feelings and cry a lot. Cry a lot. How important is crying? It's so important.

People say, oh, don't cry. You know, or like, oh, you know, that person cries too much. No, cry as much as you need to cry. You know, I cry most days a little bit. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little bit. You know, wail, if you need to wail, if you need to, like, beat the shit out of your pillows on your bed and get angry, like, do that too. Let it go.

Let it, just let it up and out, you know, and know that there isn't, there isn't, like, an end date. Like, it's not that you're one day going to wake up and go, oh, I don't have grief about that person dying anymore. You just learn to metabolize it and it becomes integrated into you. And it just becomes a part of you. Grief is a part of me. You know, loss is a part of me now. It used to be a huge part of me.

And it's swallowed me for a while. And now it's a smaller part and it's in me. This is an unbelievably helpful talk, the grief chat, because I think we will all encounter grief. It's the only inevitability. Yeah. Really. This is the only inevitability is that we're going to die

and the people we love are going to die. and we will experience grief and loss in our lives. And the fact that Western culture is so uneducated and doesn't prepare us in any way whatsoever to metabolize grief and to even know what it looks and feels like. I didn't know what was going on with me. I thought I was losing my mind. It turns out I was in perimenopause and grieving.

You know, and I wish that I had have had the knowledge to identify what was going on with me. And that's, you know, I've been, I was doing these grays. grief circles in Los Angeles after the fires when people had lost their homes. And obviously, I had just become certified as a grief counsellor. So I wasn't leading it. I was the backup person. And it's weird because all my years of interviewing people and knowing how to kind of like manage a lot of people talking hosting live TV prepared me to do these grief circles with 40 people. Amazing. You know, and I was, I learned how to like, you know, quietly shut people up and let someone

speak and to ask questions that help people, you know, express what they were feeling. So it was weird. It was like my experience of hosting live television and interviewing people got put to use as a grief counsellor in these grief circles that I was doing. Who knew? I'm wondering whether you'd been able to see, because it feels like you've done a lot of retrospective work now that's been able to make you see the positives and everything. But were you always able to say, oh, actually, I'm pleased I went through that. I learned. something or was that something that happened much later on in your life? I have, I think recovery teaches you to really find the truth of the situation and it teaches you

compassion for yourself and others. It teaches you forgiveness and no, I have not been in a place of acceptance and forgiveness for all of the situations and things that have happened to me in my life. It's been a really long process. Some things were easier and other things were much harder. You know, I had these losses that I had over this three-year period. I was very angry about a couple of them, like really, really furious and felt very wronged. And, you know, teenage Amanda, who will like fuck you up, like, she came to life within me, you know. And I was like, hang on a minute, hang on a minute.

You are a woman in recovery. you cannot be acting out from a place of rage and anger. And I took that anger and put it into, you know, my therapeutic process and my recovery process. And I feel like at the moment, I've done a really good job in being in more acceptance. How are you with anger? I think it's a really important motivating force. I think it's something that people are afraid of in women. They don't like it.

It's threatening. you're considered you're labeled as crazy if you show any anger. And it is a really important emotion to have. How you express it is the key thing. Yes. Just because you feel anger, it doesn't mean that you can go about, you know, cussing at people or being violent towards people or being mean.

But it is okay and important to express anger in a way that is appropriate. And I think I want women to be able to connect with all emotions that they have. and not feel that there's a part of themselves that they should deny, because that's when we get into problems. I feel very much that I have been forging a path my whole career for bringing issues and conversations about stigmatized things to light, mostly for women because I was so stigmatized. And I really have advocated for speech, freedom of speech,

and to be able to talk about things that most people feel a lot of shame more embarrassment about. I mean, you've single-handedly brought the word perimenopause and menopause into the language of so many women, you know? I mean, you did for me when I was after my dad had died and I was in terrible, terrible grief and so incapacitated, you know, I would send you these FaceTime messages like sobbing, saying, I don't know, I know I'm in grief, but like this feels like something else and you'd say to me, have you had your hormones checked? And I said, yes, they're fine. And you said, it doesn't matter. Your symptomology, what you're describing to me, it sounds like you're in perimenopause. Get on some hormones. And I did. And I didn't,

I didn't know anything about menopause or perimenopause in all my years of interviewing women. It's mad, right? And I've interviewed so many phenomenal women. Not one woman mentioned either one of those two words. And I realized it's because we are, it's internalized misogyny. we live in such an ageist culture that no woman wants to say guess what, I'm not fertile anymore. Yes. I've got no more eggs.

I'm done. Because it means that you are a certain age. Yes. And then you start to experience ageism. And it's like I've experienced all kinds of prejudice in my life. And now once I say I'm in perimenopause, it's interesting because now I'm getting to experience some ageism too. It's absolutely madness, isn't it?

And I have to say, I am 58s, I'm on the other side, no more periods, I'm in menopause. Happiest I have ever been. Wow. I'm completely feeling in my power. I am like in my greatest place ever. You give me hope. Well, can I just, can I just say, Amanda de Cadne, you are like such an absolute boss bitch.

Like I cannot tell you to see you sat here and everything that you've said and to be able to see all the learning. Yeah, so much learning. And that you're sharing that learning with other people. Your kids will be, and I know they are now, so extremely proud of you. Thank you. I'm going to do a message for your kids. Okay.

Atlanta. Sylvan and Ella. stop giving your mom stop like giving your mum a hard time she's not embarrassing she's literally the coolest woman I've ever met I just want to say she deserves a lot of fuss a lot of attention

and you're very very lucky all of you she's amazing Amanda I'd like to say thank you so much for to us you are amazing fuck me oh my God

I can't believe your life. So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.