Begin Again with Davina McCall - Trinny Woodall: Why I Finally Stopped Compromising

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

What happens when everyone thinks they know you, but no one sees what you’re really carrying? In this episode of Begin Again, Trinny Woodall opens up about the moments that shaped her life, her identity, and the woman she has become. Known for her energy, style, honesty and reinvention, Trinny reflects on the public version of herself people thought they understood, and the private struggles that were happening underneath. Trinny shares the truth about addiction, recovery, and the moment she realised she had to want to change her life for herself. After years of trying to hold everything together, she speaks about taking responsibility, starting again, and learning who she really was when everything else had been stripped back. This conversation also explores one of the most painful chapters of Trinny’s life: grief after losing Johnny, the father of her daughter. Trinny speaks honestly about the emotional and practical fallout of loss, becoming the person who had to keep things moving, and how selling her house became part of both survival and a new beginning. She opens up about ageing, energy, beauty, menopause, and why she refuses to disappear as she gets older. For Trinny, how we present ourselves is not about vanity, but about agency, identity, and asking: who do I want to be today? At its heart, this is a conversation about change, grief, self-worth, and finally refusing to live as the version of yourself other people expect. Trinny Woodall is proof that beginning again is not about becoming someone else. It is about finally becoming yourself. 🌟 Follow for more honest conversations about identity, growth, and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod Follow Trinny: https://www.instagram.com/trinnywoodall/?hl=en Follow Trinny London: https://www.instagram.com/trinnylondon/?hl=en ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for all your behind the scenes access, recommendations and much much more at: https://linkly.link/2g2xm (00:00) Intro (03:06) How Trinny Became “Trinny” (08:07) Trinny’s Upbringing And Relationship With Her Parents (11:59) Starting Her First Business At School (13:39) Working In The City In A Man’s World (19:02) Drug Addiction And Rehab (26:49) How Trinny Rebuilt Herself After Rehab (29:26) Shopify Ad (31:21) Why Self-Image Matters To Trinny (35:02) Meeting Susannah Constantine (37:53) Miscarriages, IVF And Fertility Struggles (41:18) How Trinny Fell Pregnant With Lyla (44:43) How Trinny Met Her Husband Johnny (52:56) Losing Johnny And Coping With Grief (01:01:35) How Trinny London Helped Rebuild Her Life (01:08:14) Ageing Disgracefully (01:14:02) Trinny’s Advice For Women To Live Happier Lives Sponsored by: Shopify - Shopify.co.uk for £1 a month trial Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A lot of women are uncomfortable looking in a mirror. Yes. But whatever you feel uncomfortable with, it makes such a difference. We've had 1.7 million customers at Trinley London. But there was a lot of madness. Can we talk about that? You started and finished a couple of businesses by your early 20s. Being self-employed is convenient when you have a drug problem

because you kind of don't always get up at 8 a.m. to go to an office. By the time I was 20 I was using fully. and it was slowly eroding my ambition. At what point did it become really unmanageable? So much has to be removed from your life for you to think, I will do anything to change my life. I want to talk about being in love. There's been tremendous love and amazing experiences

and real trauma and ultimately death. So I've gotten it hard. Because of the trauma at the end, I found it really, really challenging to look back and really relish the joy of when it was great. And I think now I can. I spent many years in my life

being something for other people. But the most important thing for a woman is to decide who I want to be for myself today. Tell us three actionable things that women could do to help themselves. Trinney, I have been literally so excited about this moment. I'm going to start off with a conversation

that we had yesterday. that really made me laugh. So you call me. Yeah. I am somewhere. The phone is on the bed. I can't get to the phone. So I look at Michael and I go,

I think I'm going to get that. It could be one of the kids. I pick up my phone. I get back in the bath. So I'm in the bath. And I look at my phone and it's you. I FaceTime you back because you'd FaceTime me. FaceTime me back immediately.

I was like, Trini, hi. you're like oh you're in the path and just please tell the story about Lila because Lila was so funny Okay so I'll tell you Lila first of all this is what happened so Lila comes upstairs and we both got a bit of jet lags so we were away she comes upstairs you know that morning 22 year old but she comes up quite animated and she goes

I've just had a weird email from Jess Jess is our lovely lady who runs our PR at 20 about some weird letter I've been asked to write. And I said, I don't know what you're talking about. From this woman, Lavinia, Lavinia. Davina, Lila? Yes, Davina. And I've got to write a letter about why I love you?

I'm not fucking doing that. And I said, okay, this is news to me. So I said, look, I said, do you know DeVina? I don't know DeVina anyway. Who is this weird woman? Who is this weird woman? And I said she's just fabulous. So then I spent a few minutes selling you in.

And I thought, no, I'll just FaceTime you. Thanks. I just face-time me. It's better. I mean, I'm just going to mention, I just want to mention one thing that you did that made me laugh so much that I never knew about you because you were five. Yeah. That when you were five, your name wasn't Trinney until you were five. Yeah.

Sixish. Yeah. But you are so Trinney. It's so hilarious. But I had no reason. I had no knowledge of Sarah Jane. No. And like where the word Trinney came.

from. I was like, oh my God, this idea that you cut off a girl's plat when you were five. You were quite naughty. Like that is a big thing to do. Yeah, it is a big thing. And bullsey. Yeah. And somebody mentioned St Trinians, you know, obviously because the naughty kids in St Trinians and you got the name Trinney from that. That you went from that to this. The journey, your daughter must be very aware. of whose... How much do you think kids of 22 are really aware of anything other than themselves? I would almost bank

on the idea that she is unbelievably proud of you and sees what you've achieved and knows that you've lost and made and lost and made. She'll know that. Yeah, she... Yeah. I think we are all selfish at that. age, the world revolvers around us.

But we're not unaware, is what you're saying. But we're not unaware. Yeah, and I think you're right in that regard. I think she is aware and I think that like when I even saw, when I saw her Instagram things and I thought one or two must have been inspired by it. And she has a great sense, Star-Lila. There was some woman who, you know how you suddenly get occasional comments on DMs? And I find it amazing when somebody chooses to write you a DM about your child.

child, you know, and you think you really took the time to do that. And it was something like just another Nipo baby. Okay. And because it's about Lila, I get really, you know, so I wrote back saying, actually, university project has to do something. They're all starting things. So please don't put labels where you don't know the background. Yeah.

And I... I think Nipo Baby is a horrible expression. God, it's a horrible expression. Because if somebody is a... Somebody who's a doctor, all right? And so Kit grows up where maybe they weren't allowed to be sick that much because the doctor was that kind of doctor. But it's amazing how many kids of doctors go into being a doctor. Yes.

So is there a NEPO baby element to that, you could say? And because somebody might be doing something in entertainment, it's given a terminology NEPO baby, but they're growing up with a parent that had a career in something and they're getting. some echo of that in their life when they grow up which makes them either love and or hate it. Well, look at, I mean, I'm sorry, Trinny, but look at you and Lila's dad's jeans. You were like, go get them. You were both. Yeah.

I'm going to then take it back for both of us. She's genetically predisposed. I'm going to take it back for both of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we both had mothers who were challenging in different ways, all right, and look, well, we both are because I think that's an interesting analogy to be now because your mother was not well and my mother compromised a lot in her life so I would say they didn't necessarily lead the happiest lives and my mother didn't have a career I don't know if your mother had a career

okay so my mom tried started lots of stuff but not um proff careers just started like a secondhand furniture company cloth kits which was this cut-up clothing you could do, you know, she became a rep for cloth kits. You know, just little things she'd start because I think she felt sort of lonely in her life. And my dad was challenging and she, I sometimes went to bed thinking, God, I wish they were divorced. It's really interesting that. I think that's such a big one for people to hear that because kids do think that. They do think that. It's, you know, so many parents. think let's stay together until they're 18 and kids pick up so much shit.

But just going back to this thing of what we inherit and what makes us motivated. So I think that's quite interesting because with my parents, my dad was really successful when he was younger. And then when I was about 16, his luck changed. So he was not. And then he was disillusioned in his life. So that was a trajectory of my father, incredibly successful, came from not much. Much did really well. Had a few lucky breaks in his 20s, but really did well.

He ran a bank in the end. Disillusionment when he's sort of 60. How was he just very quickly after that changed? Was he a difficult man to live with? It's challenging for me to look at my dad and know him well. It's really difficult because my father had three children and then devout. and then met my mother and had three children. And I'm the youngest.

And he didn't see his older children that much, even though they lived abroad, but at some stage they moved 50 miles from us. And I once asked him, how come you didn't see them? And he was like, well, times are different then. And I thought, my God, they were only 50 miles away. And you didn't see them that much. And at certain stages, they came to live with us when they were sort of unhappy. Different members of them came to live with us because there was challenges at home.

They had a very challenging home life. So there was a lot of kind of complication. But because I was the youngest, and I was for a little bit when I was younger, I wasn't very well. I had a low blood cell count and they didn't know what it was. So I was sort of spoiled a bit by my mum, which I kind of ended up really resenting. Oh, you resented it? In the end, I couldn't bear it. Did it make you stand out?

Yeah, just, you know, just challenging. And I went away to school very young. So I went away to school. to a boarding school at six and a half. They then lived abroad, so I sort of saw them. Definitely in the summer for about two months. My dad traveled quite a lot. And then at Christmas and then at Easter.

That was it. Then I stayed my grandparents in Brighton and Hove, actually, Hove, when it was really just full of people over 80. It was not cool then. It was like I was the youngest person by 75 years. And their life was a very old-fashioned life. And I used to listen to my grandmother play the piano. and play Pelmanism with her and Canasta, Railroad Canasta.

And I was on my own with a grandmother. So I didn't see my parents that much. And I don't know if that's why I didn't feel really close to them, you know, and didn't feel I really knew them. And then at meal times, I would always want to leave the table early. I had this weird thing. I just wanted to, I felt very bored sitting at a table. and I would always leave

either so I wouldn't have to do the dishes properly, I was being lazy or I just couldn't engage in the conversation but my sister who was four years old would sit there and listen to my dad tell all these stories of his life so she really got to know him and they were very close

and he stuck up for her my mother was not always brilliant with my sister and he would stick up for her and so this dynamic in the family was one where she was very close to him. My mom, you know, I was the last kid and for a while I wasn't that well. So I came out of boarding school for a year. We lived in France because the air was meant to be good. I don't know what reason. My dad traveled a lot for work. And then I spent two years where I was living at

home in Germany and my siblings were at boarding school. And that's when they weren't getting on. And I think my mom was probably just going into menopause. But she was having no idea of the emplacement, but she was incredibly depressed and she was low. I felt this low energy and my dad was away a lot and my dad actually had an affair for 30 years with somebody. So that was happening at that time and I don't know if my mother knew then or not, but I just sensed this real lowness in the in the household. But I had a few years where I felt we'd grown up with privilege and then You know, I was thinking would I go to university at 18? I probably wasn't smart enough, but there wasn't that opportunity.

I needed to go and work. And by then I'd also had a Saturday job since I was doing my A-levels. So I kind of was earning. And I started a little business when I was at school. Yeah, so can we talk about that? Because you were, what, 16 when you started this business. And that's incredibly entrepreneurial because it wasn't just like your mum did, little side hustle.

This was an actual business. Well, tell everybody what you did. Well, it was a little, I don't know what made me think I wanted to start it, but I remember I wanted to have my own money. So I did a job and a delicatess and partchairs, and I used to cut the meat. And I did that on Saturdays. And that was just, I hated that job, but I just did that job.

I don't know if my parents made me do that job or if I thought I need to do that job. I can't remember it's a long time ago. And then I had a girlfriend at school. And so we did these hair bows and we were going and get them, you know, do the designs. We bought this fabric in Berwick Street Market and then we had some ladies sew them

because I didn't know how to sew and then we went and found these brooches in Portobella which are like a pound each, put them on. And then we took them around to Scott Crohler. Do you remember Scott Crowler? Yes. And then we sold Harvey Nichols.

I mean Harvey Nichols. I know. 16, 17. 17. I'm 17. Mad. Yeah. But I loved it.

And then Katie went off to Heatherly Art School and I wanted to continue but I didn't thought I can't do it on my end so it just petered out and then I did another business a few years later called Sock It You. Yeah so wait you went and worked in the city. I went and worked in the city which was just right. So tell me how that happened because that feels so not you. So not me but it was what my dad did. So I think I was still at a stage of wanting to impress my dad because I wasn't great at school

and I didn't in the end up go to university. I thought, how can I prove that I can get a career? So I started as a assistant, or I started as a PA to somebody in a commodities physical trading house. And then from that, I then went and worked in a fund, but I was a salesperson in an Anglo-American commodities fund. So it was me, it was 55 men. I was probably the only woman trying to sell commodity funds. And it was a kind of time of trading place. that film.

You know, it was really the arse end of the city. I used to go every morning on the tube. I hated it so much. Did you? I hated it. And I, every morning, I thought, how can I call up somebody and try and persuade them? I mean, a sales job is a tough job. You've got to have a real chutzpite. You've got a really, like, black.

And I had a very low voice. And so I managed to convince this guy who was the one of the one. One of, you know, you literally call called old clients. And one of them was living in Nigeria. And so we would chat and he thought I was a man. And I only realized on the second call, because Trinney, you know, it could be anything. Yes. And so he said, when were there, should we go and see some girls in some clubs?

And I was like, yeah. These would be quite fun. Do you have a wife? And I was, oh my God, he thinks I'm a guy. Because I, you know, sometimes I call, like, if I'm in a hotel, I say, can I please have eggs and bacon? And they go, yes, sir. And I go, I'm a woman. But anyway, so I realized on the phone, my voice can sound low.

So this man thought I was a guy. And I knew that if I corrected him, he was quite a macho person. And he was coming over to invest. And I was thinking, my God, it gave me my first. Oh, he was coming over. And then he was coming over to invest. So I was like, what am I going to do? So opposite me with this guy called Philip, I said, Philip, you have to be me.

You have to be me. Okay. So then we went into the you record all conversations and there's a room where you do it so we listened to the conversation so he could have knowledge of what we talked about and funny things we'd said

so he'd kind of be aware so then the sky arrives and he arrived literally I mean I think not with a suitcase of cash because it was nearly that kind of time but like a banker's draft or something but he was ready to invest so I played Phillips secretary

and I brought in the tea Why are you bringing in the tea You're going Philip, do better So anyway, it closed It was the only deal I did there It closed, it closed And so I got my commission and stuff

But I hated it And then when it was Black Monday Or whatever that was in 1987 8687 I was the last person You know last person in first person out So I was fired I was like, oh, relieved, really.

And what, you were in your early 20s at this point, right? And you'd done your sock business? I done my sock business. I can't remember if I did it before or after then. Sater's on the floor? On the trades on floor. I think I'd done this job and then maybe I did sock it to you with this friend of mine. Fuck it to you.

And she and I knew lots of really pretty girls. This is just so politically incorrect. So we chose pretty girls, blonde hair, long legs. And they had these lovely baskets. We got our socks. We went to East London and there was a factory there called Barter. It was a East European sock factory. And they made socks.

So we just order what we thought was correct. And they went around with baskets on trading floors, looking very sexy and fab. Like the girls used to take sandwiches in. And all the boys flocked to buy the socks. They really wanted their phone number, but they bought lots of socks. So for us, it worked. Like we did three grand in the first month. It was unbelievable.

Paid the girls a 15 cent commission. Socks weren't very expensive. And then after about three months, sox sales eased off because we kind of had rather bad glue on the socks and the socks started falling down. And it just wasn't, you know, we hadn't done real research on quality of sock, quality control. So I learned a lot of things that business. I learned about quality control. I learned about what kind of people you should have for a sales force and what's engaging. So I learned a little bit about it.

These all things that help me later employing. people and who was reliable and who wasn't, who had had a late night and you hadn't, who would turn out for work. It's a few little things. But then in the end, we had to finish the business. And then for about three or four years, we were, I still lived at home. I would find in a garage, under my bed, boxes of goddamn socks. Yeah, it was just, it came to always remind me and torment me.

And then, you know, yeah, that business finished. So you had started and finished a couple of businesses by your early 20s. Were you at that time able to go, well, I've learned a lot, don't worry, I'll use it in the next one. Or how did it affect you? I think I didn't think that far ahead. I think I was living slightly, also at the same time I was using. So I was sort of leading this life of trying to be together. Being self-employed is convenient when you have a drug problem because you kind of

don't always get up at 8 a.m. to go to an office. And so, you know, in those, in a few of those times, you know, my using effective things, and I wasn't consistent. And it was slowly eroding my ambition. When I was about 16, I was quite ambitious. Yes. And I had been really bad at school. And then my parents that I could go to America if I came from 23 out of 24 in the top 10, so I came to third. So I knew a little bit was focus and attention. Yes. And I, it was in me. And I felt it was in me. And then from 16 I started using intermittently. And then, you know, by the time I was 20, I was using fully. And then 26 I stopped. So I had 10 years where, you know, I was sort of habitual use. At what point did it become really unmanageable? How long were you like that for? Like when it, when and other people. Because I think it's possible to hide drug use for quite a long time from people. where they can't really see it but when did all of those

kind of barriers start I think a few things happen I think it depends what people use friends of mine who used smack you kind of you know you can't sit in a chair and not look like you're using

yeah and you look different and you sound different and you're blurry and you know everything we know that we have friends who've been in the position and also you can die and quite a few of our friends died and overdosed. With Coke, it's different because you sort of think, I'll just use at the weekends, it's recreational.

You start in a recreational use. Then your weekend comes a Thursday to a Monday. And then the rest of the time is just you're trying to recover so you can use again. So that was my using. I had a few years of that, but I felt I presented as a together person. And it was still important for me to look nice

and to put on makeup and to make an effort. I had very bad acne, but I still, you know, there was really like what you present to the world and how you feel inside, and we know this thing of fitting in your own skin. You know, my skin and my body went so far apart, and you wouldn't necessarily see it. But then my parents began to notice,

and then my dad was like, what's happened to you? You just changed. And then one day I just thought, it's going to be easy for me just to say, look, I use. It was just, it was actually a release to say it. And I remember exactly when I said it. And I was probably 21. And we were sitting around the kitchen table in my parents flat. And my brother was there because I remember my dad said, now you've told me, you can stop. And I remember my brother saying, like that was the biggest. And I remember my brother saying, I think it's going to be harder than that, Daddy. I think she'll have to do. you know, go to rehab or do something. You were 21 at this point, right? Yeah, 21, 22, maybe 22.

So then I went to rehab. But I wasn't ready. And we talked a bit before about this sense of what a rock bottom is. And how much has to be removed from your life for you to think, I will do anything to change my life, you know. And there's a lot of damage that's done. There's a lot of things that happen. But you have to have had enough of things.

that old life and want to let it go to be able to successfully get clean. And that first time, I came back to London after a few months and I remember going to meetings and I remember when I went to meetings I would arrive late, I'd sit at the back,

I wouldn't get to know people. And I think what made me relapse... Look at all these awful drug addicts. That's what I used to say. A little bit... I was a bit like... But you know what? You know what? Weirdly, I...

Really, I didn't feel that, Tavina. I felt lonely because I arrived late. Everyone knew each other and I didn't. It really... Isolated. It really brought up in me that feeling. When I was much younger, I found it very difficult to make friends. And also I'd been at a boarding school early taken out.

Then I was sick. Then I had to tutor. Then I went to an American school. Then I went back to boarding school at 10 when everyone else was 11. Then I stayed down a year. So I was very challenged. making friends and also moving countries. So this feeling I had when I went was,

and a part of probably feelings the reason I used, is to give me this confidence to be able to be, you know, this sort of person who is, you know, can make lots of friends and be sort of sociable. Be sociable. It gave me that sociability, which I didn't have. So then when you strip back all the drug use and you're left with yourself,

but you're not working on yourself. It's so raw that feeling even more and there's nothing to numb it of that isolation and I'm so different and it wasn't that I looked down and said that struggle. I just thought I don't belong here because I feel they're all friends in a club and I'm not a part of it.

And then I felt because I wasn't finding a grounding there that my old life was appealing because it made me feel less lonely and one night I was out with friends and somebody said, do you want a line? I thought, why the fuck not? There wasn't that barrier of look what's going to happen if I do again.

You couldn't pull it forward. So then I relapsed. And then that time of relapse is when, and anyone listening who has all been through this knows this one. When you know there's a solution, the joy of using it disappears. So I had three or four years of just very knowing this was never going to go anywhere, seeing at this stage friends not making it. and just thinking at some stage, I will not be able to do this anymore.

And then it got to that stage. And then that time I was 26, and I really knew I had to do it for me. There is something where, if everyone helps you or puts you, I remember my parents sold a table at auction to pay for my rehab, and I heard about that table for two years.

You know, they would always talk about that table they'd had to sell. And I just, it was a good table. but I knew I would have to so I sold I had some jewelry I'd inherited and I sold the jewelry and I paid for my own rehab I think what happened to me age 26 is I thought

because I felt I'd lived a whole fucking life okay you had you know and I felt I have to for the first time take responsibility of myself and do this for me so that first step was doing and I spent a year in rehab you know I did seven months at farm place and six months in Weston Super fucking Nightmare.

It's quite funny. We've just got to explain that people in recovery that go to Western Supermare, call it Western Super Nightmare. Yeah, Western Super Nightmare. I'm so sorry. I really apologize for people who live in what might be now a glorious Western Supermaster. Well, it is a gorgeous place if you're not in treatment. I was in treatment. And it was just, I remember I think I lived on 13 pounds a week and that went on cigarettes.

And then I worked in a garden centre. in January outside, just like I remember always just being freezing, and you've got the wind and the sea and just, you know, and then I worked a bit in an old people's home. And it was very, I then came back to London, and it was that feeling, and we know this conversation, when you feel everything has been stripped back from you so much, and you have to build it up again.

You have to really, for the first time, age 27 by now, discover who am I and who do I want to be? And I think if I wind this movie forward for a second to the Trinny Tribe on Facebook and Instagram, can I just quickly ask you something? So this is your community? Yeah. How many people are in there now?

A few hundred thousand. I mean. Yeah. But this is this thing that's amazing. That's so important to me is to ask ourselves as women who do we want to be today for ourselves? Not who does our mother, sister, daughter, husband, partner want us to be.

And I spent so many years trying to be what all these people in my life felt I should be or I felt they felt I should be. And so to have that choice and to develop that in myself of who do I actually want to be was something I felt when we, you know, all these people start this community separately. But there is this, I think the premise for me, the most important thing for a woman is to figure out how can I decide who I want to be for myself today. And so that place, especially during COVID, when people felt they were living in family environments and feeling so lonely. Yes. Is how could I actually have a place where, you know, get online, Trinney's having a chat.

Sorry, I hate to talk about myself in third person. I'm chatting with these ladies, but we're talking about these subjects. We're talking about who do you want to be today? And that does then transmit in get dressed, wear color, put on makeup, do your hair, decide to look after your body, think about what menopause might be for you. How do you, I don't want to grow all fucking gracefully. I want to have so much energy in my life. You know, these are things I want for me.

And I really, the passion that probably drives me every single day is, is to, I spent many years in my life, Davina, compromising and being something for other people. And I don't anymore. Like, I don't, for one millimeter, even to the extent where some family relationships couldn't get their head around it, you know. And it's the most freeing thing I have done for myself. You know when you've got that little idea in the back of your mind, something that you think, You know what, I might do that one day, and then life gets kind of busy, and it just sort of stays there. Well, I was thinking about how sometimes overwhelming it can feel when you actually try to start something.

Design, writing, photography, payments, tech, all of it, it's a lot. Well, Shopify, whose sponsors begin again, sort of takes that chaos, and it makes it feel achievable. Because it gives you a place to build your shop without needing to be a lot. an expert. It's got templates, it's got tools that help you write product descriptions and nudge you along a bit when you get stuck. It means that you can just start. If you've been sitting on an idea or you could just maybe have a look, try it out. Go to shopify.com.uk. If you want to, you can sign up for £1 per month trial and you could actually start selling right away. Okay guys

I need you in my begin again gang Listen It's the most funnest Most awesome club in the whole world And I want you to be part of it So when you sign up to our newsletter You get all the bits that I don't share anywhere else Things that I'm loving

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and you'll know before anyone else does. Shh, don't tell everyone. So come and join the best gang ever. The links right below and it just takes five seconds and it's free. What I think is interesting is you started talking about the community and this idea of what do I want to wear, what do I want to look like, who do I want to be,

how do I want to be perceived, or not be perceived, because it's not about how other people see you, it's how you feel about yourself. What you've taught me is that how you look, if you're on your own and you're not going to see anyone all day, still matters. And it doesn't have to be posh or expensive.

No. It's like you're, you're, Such an advocate for the thought you put into yourself matters, right? Yeah. It has to flow. It has to bring you joy. It has to make you feel. You know, there are days I want to wear black.

And, you know, Lila and I watch that really trashy, the love story. So we kind of want to, you know, be Callum, Seth Kennedy or whatever, you know, for a second. But I also want to, I just this weekend changed my wardrobe because my wardrobe is my office. So I see it every day. And it's about the clutter and decluttering. of my brain. It's very psychological, but I'm surrounded by my clothes when I work from home. I'm mainly in an office, but just in the evening and firstly in the morning I'm there doing stuff. And I realize I want it to be a bit calmer, but I also want more colour in there because black can drain.

So I want to bring this sense of life and energy into how I dress. And that does change how I am. It gives me a brightness inside myself. And then I want to have great skin because I want to wear minimal makeup and I want that just to enhance that wellness. I want people to feel that. And this is actually a reaction. My mother would say probably every other day, you look so tired. Literally every other day. All right. My mother would say. Only mom's can do that. And I used to, that's when we talked about this thing about my mum sticking up for me, then when she would say things like that, I would get this burning anger inside me around my mum.

And it just, it was challenging my relationship with my mother. But it stemmed from so much more that the one sentence meant so much more. You know, it went back to so when I was sick and you look so tired. So for me, it was the most important thing when I wake up in the marriage, what do I do so I don't look tired? when you weren't well. Yeah. And what do I do so I don't look tired.

And so whether that supplements I take, whether that's jumping up and down like a bunny every morning, whether it's slapping myself, whatever it might be, I want to then feel that energy in the mirror in my reflection. Because a lot of women I have learned from doing what not to wear in other shows around the world for 20 years is how many women are uncomfortable looking in a mirror. How many homes I went into where a woman wouldn't have a mirror

apart from just for her face. Okay, which says a lot about not wanting to look at yourself. So whatever your size or height or whatever it is that you feel uncomfortable with, how can you look at your face and love yourself and love your face? And that's just about, you know, giving energy to your face and lightness to your eyes and life in your face. And if you see your face and you see, I have a life in my face, it makes such a difference because it makes you be able to say, I can do anything today. If you catch sight in the mirror and you think I look so tired.

You know, first of all, it takes a 50-year-old statement, you know, to be reiterated and reinforced, but I don't want to look tired. I think, you know, you were talking about your community and then you were talking about you as a 26-year-old. and that girl that was ready to get clean and then meeting Susanna all of that kind of time, what year would that have been? I met Susanna. I got clean in 1990 and I was 26.

And then I met Susanna in probably 90, maybe 95. I thought, 4.95, because I did a couple of jobs before. She was a journalist. She wrote about women's cricket in the telegraph, because she was at the time having an affair with a cricketer. And so she did that. But what's so funny is you've come from, she was doing kind of quite a masculine talking about cricket. Yes, she was. You were coming from the city. Yeah.

And too bullsey. I mean, when you two met, was it like I've literally fallen in love like I've literally fallen in love like I No, it was like we were like sniffing dogs who didn't like each other. Oh, really? We met. That's so funny. I went to a dinner party at her boyfriend's house. And she was obviously there.

And we met. And I remember we didn't talk much. And we were like two male sniffing dogs around each other. And then we had a very close friend who was our mutual best friend. And she had had us both sort of get whinging about not being happy in our career and wanting to do other things. And at the time I had this idea for this column that would be. sort of what's great and what isn't great and I'd always loved. I always had girls

ended up in my bathroom and ended up in my wardrobe and I was always re-styling. It wasn't. It was like you had you shot from, you kind of bought from M&S or Kukai or designer. And that was it. There was no Zara. There was no mango. There was no Massimo duty.

There was none. There was H&M maybe, but I don't even remember H&M then, not even like the H&M today. No. So Vogue would take a sample from Warehouse put it in vogue as their token isn't high street, but they wouldn't ever make the sample up. So it's like, you know, mum took you into St. Michael's, it wasn't M&S then, St. Michael's for your things, or you got a special treat and you were given something nice. So it was how could we then find this middle ground? And then could you just look at dressing

different price points and different body shapes? Susanna and I have very different body shapes. and so she then, we had coffee and she said, you know, can you, we got on well at that coffee and we both had a good chat. But then she called me the next day and said, can I take your idea? So, Susanna. So I said, no, we can do it together. And then we built this business up. We raised money really quickly. And then two and a half years later we had to close it.

And it was traumatic because I became a chronic workaholic. I was trying to have a baby, but I wasn't thinking about that. I worked 16 hours a day. Susanna was having babies. I call her in the morning if she wasn't there by 830 and say, where are you? And she say, I'm breastfeeding Joe and I go, well, what time will you be in? You know, it was that kind of.

We were on such different parts by then. And, but this is before we did telly. But I love building the team. I didn't feel qualified to do anything. So I hired very good people in. But they were people who then, gave a direction of what they felt the business should do. And we'd been invested in by what was our idea.

So the idea evolved. It.com bust happened because you had this bubble in between 99 and 2001. And then you had the recession after. So it was a time when I learned a lot about what I wouldn't do by that. But at the end of that, I was flawed. I was running on empty. Susanna was now having Esme, her second child. And I went off to Arizona to a place called Cottonwood.

and it was a rehab, but they had these things called Inner Path workshops. And it was one which was for people in recovery who wanted to just find out the next part of themselves. And I remember going on this cacti walk by myself. I remember it so clearly. And we're now in sort of 2000, 2000, maybe 2001, the world that decided not to end. Are you with Johnny at this point? I'm with Johnny. I'm on my eighth round of IVF and it's not working.

I've had a few miscarriages. So I'm like, life is challenging. I've just lost a business, lost some babies, feeling, you know, just quite a lot going on. And for the first time ever, I looked outwardly. And you know when you entirely let go and then what is meant to come in, we'll come in. And we always feel we do let go.

But it's like when you've picked a spot, there's still the sebum to come out. And then the blood has to come. You know, you have the sebum. Can I say only you would come up with the analogy. But it is that analogy. If anyone here picks spots when they were younger, there's that kind of, I've done it,

but then there's still something in there and you've got to get it out. And when I was doing the cacti walk, I got out all the seabum. Okay. So I really let go. And I just was like, you know, I have no idea what is in my future. I'd always spent my life trying to slightly control things. And I just said, I'm letting go. Whatever is meant to come into my life now, let it come in.

Okay. And that was probably the time I was most in tune, you know, with no agenda because I had everything taken away from me. And then I came back in this still in this state. And then the BBC called two weeks later to do what not to wear. How mad is that? So we started that. And then I, Susanna and I started out of Korea. And it really, people always look and we're like,

were in overnight, but we had, you know, five years, then we'd had the thing. And then so, but then within two years, we had number one books and we were number one shows. And, you know, so then within three years, got lots of awards. Yeah. So it was good. And then at the same time, I was still trying to get pregnant. So that was just, I always talk about this as you sort of think it would never happen, but you think it will never not happen. You live in this Limbo Land. And I remember Susanna and I were doing the Oscars with Diana

Sawyer in America. And we were on the red carpet. Wow. I know it was quite cool. And Susanna had both the kids by that stage. And I remember we went back. I remember

this so bloody clearly, we would go back to the hotel room and I go in the bathroom and I'm bleeding. And I think I've lost lost it again, you know. And Susanna was too, spotting. So I called up my obstetrician and I said, Tio, I'm losing another baby.

And he said, just, you know, come back and then come straight to me. And I remember I got off the plane and I went to him and I lay there. And I really, you know, your expectation is so low because it's happened so much. You just assumed that it was going. Yeah. And he had this mini, it was quite rare. then to have those mini ultrasound and I remember a mini alt sound and we had bo bo bo bo and I was like do that again you know I couldn't believe it and then and

then she was alive still I know it was like such a moment yeah 13 tries yeah yeah nine tries to have liner and a few more after but so that that was kind of nine for Lila nine for Lila but I mean nine for Lila but can I just say something yeah the amount that you have to go through to try for one round. It's a lot. It's a lot. Financially and every other way. God, I mean, financially, but also emotionally, the roller coaster.

Yeah. You numb it out when it's like, yeah, I remember because you have, you did the scene, golden or F and they, well, then it was, you know, you did different things, but I used to have to do this, you'd do an injection for 11 days and then you did something else for two days and Johnny would do the injections for me because Johnny had been a paramedic so I would kind of trusted him and then it's that kind of waiting you know it's like waiting waiting waiting but when with Lila I didn't have an IVF Johnny was away and the doctor called me up and said we've still got some of his sperm and

And do you want to come in? I was like, what's the point? You know, because we've never done an IUI, which is just shoving it up like a turkey baster. So we did. And then I didn't bother to, on day 11, I'd be like calling at 8.30 a.m. Can I do the blood work?

And I didn't. And I didn't. I just, I just, I didn't. And I literally, I was like, it's that cacti moment in the thing. I let go. I just let go. I just felt not happened.

And then day 16, Mari calls me out and says, Trinney, why haven't you called me? And I go, because I, you know what? I bled a bit. And I think that's, it's not happening. And I just didn't want the disappointment again. And I went in, she said, you're pregnant, you know. And, and it, but it was so, I so didn't expect.

I want to talk about Johnny. To you. Yeah. Do you know what? Seeing the pictures of U2, U3, like, just made my heart sing so much. I, Johnny, to me, was one of those characters. where once met never forgotten. I know.

For two minutes, you could meet him and you go, like, wow. Funny, warm, open up. Like, how did you meet and what was that like? It's so weird, DeVina, because I think if it was anyone other than you, we wouldn't really be having the details of this conversation. I think for anyone listening,

talking about the idea of somebody you've been, been with and there's been tremendous love and amazing experiences and real trauma and pain and ultimately death. You need so much time after that to be able to look back at the early times which were great because for many years, because of the kind of trauma at the end, I found it really, really challenging to look back and really relish the joy of when it was great, you know, and I think now I can. So a part of me is going in this conversation feeling there's such a nostalgia for what isn't

there anymore. Yeah. So I find it hard. Sorry. No, it's just. It's nice to see you feel like this because it's nice. It's nice to remember. It's nice to remember.

And so even though I'm emotional, it's very difficult for me, and you know this about me, to feel really vulnerable about how I really felt because I have to hold things together sometimes. Yes. You know? Well, a lot, Trinney, like you've had a big old life with a lot going on. But so we met in a meeting and he became my best. made. And I had had best male friends before, but I've always been a girl's girl. I've always, you know, my friends are mainly women. But I just loved how different he was from any of my other

male friends. And he was so, and he fucking made me laugh. Oh my God. With Michael, I see that with you. Yeah. You know, after lovely father of your children, but then not being happy and not laughing. And then Michael and you laugh so much. You know, you just do. So I think that feels. You feel. You of laughing and madness. You know, there was a lot of madness, but I have to be aware too because in this there's always, you know, you know, members of this whole set up,

but, you know, I met somebody who was coming out of a marriage as well. And so for both of us at the time, having this friendship was the best thing in the world. It was really healing for me in early recovery. to be friends with somebody because also I never knew where I stood with men before, you know. I felt I had bad, bad skin, but also other people saw me as an attractive person. And so I had, you kind of didn't know if somebody just wanted to be your friend.

I wanted people to just be my friend. I was quite shy sexually. So, but anyway, whatever. We're really good mates. He makes me laugh. And we did really fun stuff together. And then one day we were sitting. in my apartment

and we're just we've all been having that kind of afternoon coffee after a meeting moment and then everyone leaves and he's there and we're sitting at the end of my bed and he goes can I kiss you

and I am fucking horrified and I go why and he goes I said why we're friends Johnny and he goes because I want to kiss you and I just looked at him and then he kissed me

and I sort of felt stirrings of excitement but we both felt so guilty because we were kind of destroying we could never go back now to this really great friendship and it was going to have to go somewhere else and we were both scared and so we didn't see each other for a month

we didn't see each other for a month I mean we couldn't do with both of us so then it became complicated because there was complications and there was you know kind of just complications And after about a year, we then started going out together.

And it was very, my parents were challenged a bit by Johnny because he was very different from what we had all grown up with. He was a very different person. You know, he came from a slightly different life. He took the Mickey out. he would be quite funny with my parents and they kind of didn't have quite to deal with it but I sort of loved him for that because it was like I was just like

he was my comrade in arms to deal with my really complicated family and I love that it's like he got it and he just got he got people very well he was very perceptive got people very well and he was very of all the things and this is what Lila has from Johnny is he never ever ever judged anyone by their accent or money or no money or job or no job. You know, he decided, do I like the character that person or not? But more than anyone I've ever met in my life, he was that person.

So he would be best friends with the weirdest people. I think that is what I, you've just made me realize what I loved him. I think it was his lack of judgment. Yeah, it was a, yeah. I think as I've got older, it's one of the things I dislike. the most is people who just judge people. Yeah, I agree with you. Without getting to know them. Yeah. And he never did that. Yeah. That's really interesting. So there were very good years. And like if you look at your marriage, you know, how long were you with Matthew? 20 years with him and married for 18.

Yeah. So Johnny and I was 16. But in that, I can put that into phases of complication, utter joy, complication, really painful, good, disappointing death, if I do that kind of trajectory. And when Johnny was well, and after we separated, he went through phases, but when he was well and in recovery, and he was like the best, dad, you know, and our relationship as parents of Lila, when he was well, was fantastic. It was really like the best it could be in terms of he was a phenomenally, you know, when Johnny was well, he was a phenomenally good parent. Well, when he had the resources.

When he had the resources, when he had the mental capacity. Yeah. After you guys split up, it wasn't like you didn't speak. I mean, there was no animosity, really. It felt like an incredibly, um, amicable split in a way, even though it must have been a very difficult time for you,

but you still spoke all the time like Lila was. Yeah, I think with any, when you separate, there's a reason you separate and there's a moment when it's challenged and there were challenges

and there were really tough challenges. But then Johnny sorted himself out and then we had a healthy relationship. and on and off, you know, depending on how things were. When Johnny was 50, he took his own life. And there will be many people, sadly, this isn't a unique experience for people.

Biggest killer of men. The biggest killer of men. And having spoken, obviously, getting to our age, we've got lots of friends who either are approaching or going through or have been through. We've gone through this phase of our life, but there'll be people listening who are either heading towards it or an end. And it is a little bit like you were talking about, what do you want? Michael talks about this a lot with men of like getting to an age

where you realised that you never achieved what you wanted. And that being the crisis. And, you know, you went through. something with Johnny which will help other people who potentially either have gone through something similar to you or it may have just happened to them and you're 11 years down the line. How are you now and how did you handle it back then? I mean, it was such a shot but maybe not.

I don't know how. I think that I've learned a lot about suicide since. since then and I've, you know, worked with some charities that do things as suicide. And so I think I've just learned about people who really, really want to kill themselves don't talk about it that much, you know, and people who talk about it, it's a cry for help. But I think there's this window when somebody could choose not to make that decision. It's a really small window and that's why you have places like James's Place and different charities where they try and I've had one or two people who I've known or they're a friend of a

friend and I've helped them get to James's place. Can you tell us what James's place is? It's a charity for men who might be contemplating suicide and unlike the Samaritans, there's a centre in London and they have a centre there just opening. outside. But they do certain things that I think are very helpful. So you have to kind of fill something in which is challenging. I think you need to make it as quick as possible that somebody could talk to somebody and see somebody. But anyway, there's this point by which you're sitting down and you have this deck of cards. It's a really interesting way of doing it. And it's

sort of deeming out your cards of life. So one is if you live and one is if you die. And I think that people get to a place in suicide or make a decision to kill themselves because they feel it's the least selfish thing they could do for the people in their life to remove themselves from that life. That's nobody gets to a place where they don't have that thought. I think that is an overriding thought. I need to just remove myself. The world would be better without me in it. Yeah.

And it could be many different circumstances that lead them there. But I think that's what it is. So there were times earlier when I was slightly worried for Johnny. And I remember I spoke to friends and they said, whatever Johnny decides to do, there is nothing you can actually do about it. Yes. You know, there's got to be a shift in Johnny for Johnny. because I had tried lots of things.

I had, you know, tried to be supportive financially or not supportive financially to, you know, just lots of things. And whatever I tried, I tried everything, I think, DeVina, and you question yourself when somebody dies, did I try enough? And I think that wasn't something I stayed awake at night thinking about because I just, I didn't by that stage. I also think that there is a lot of things in recovery that help you handle really, really tough moments in your life. Going to meetings gives you some tools, knowing that you have no control over someone else is helpful.

But I also wanted to ask you about how you navigated. losing the father of your beautiful daughter, because then suddenly you are alone, you are a single parent. There's so many different aspects. Yeah, there's so many different aspects. She's lost to dad. But I think everyone has a slightly different kind of practical things that will happen that will affect them and emotional things.

So on practical things, if they've been the main breadwinner and they die, there's a lot of financial fallout as well. And that's incredibly worrying as well as if you have children, my father, my kids no longer have a father. So there's that kind of how am I going to live? There's the real financial burden. And I had that in a different way that Johnny left debts and I had to pay the debts. And as a result, you know, ultimately I sold my house to start my business and pay those debts. And so that fallout of having to manage a lot of the things that happened as a result stopped me grieving for a while.

That's one thing I'd say because there was so much I had to kind of be the main family person. Right. You know, because you know. You had a mess to clean up. I had a bit of a mess to clean up. Yeah, not saying that he left you a mess, but it's just how it. It was just the fallout. So there's that.

And then there's sort of you, when? someone kills themselves as opposed to just dying, people ask different questions, you know, as well. Yes, I haven't thought about that. I remember at, because I think you came to Johnny's memorial, but at the funeral, somebody said like a eulogy at the funeral, and I didn't love it. Like I felt they said things that shouldn't have been said three days after he died. And I told them about two weeks ago. You know the person. I told them about two weeks ago. And I said, by the way, I need to let you know, I didn't love what you say. Johnny's funeral.

And I got it out, but I got it out 12 years later. How did you talking about that? It helped you because you held onto it for 12 years. Yeah, I had, I just, I hadn't held on to it. At the time, I remember thinking, I don't think you should have said that. And then at the memorial,

three people talked about Johnny, and they talked about it beautifully because they didn't leave an elephant in the run the fact he killed himself. But they didn't, they balanced the man, you know, and it was candid and heartfelt. And they'd known him for many years, hadn't just known him in recovery. You know, so there was a whole life to it. And it was really beautiful.

And, you know, they were really fantastic words. But the things that helped me are Julia Samuel, because she wrote a book called GriefWorks. And she was a really good friend of my sister. And the day that Johnny died, she came around to the house. So she gave me the words. She gave me a framework in which to, you know explain to an 11 year old child what had happened please would you say what she told you to say because I thought this was so brilliant

so she said say that he's had a heart attack in his head and it was just it's such a I read that for the first time learning about you and this whole experience and I thought what a great way of explaining it yeah yeah it's like a good old fucking therapy session let me just tell you I can I just tell you I'm so thank you

it feels really special to me to be able to be with you and go through something like this with you so thank you me too yeah I'm still kind of like blown away by everything that you were going through at one time in your life because you were talking about

selling your house not just to pay off debts but to start a business and it's like which makes me think of when women get pregnant and then they go and we're going to move and we're going to everything at once

it's like we do when we're pregnant we do everything at once but you know you'd gone through this huge trauma but at the same time Trinney London is born yeah

like because you were starting that before am I right in saying before he died but were you at this sort of point of encountering horrific problems trying to get it off the ground because

trying to get it off the ground because trying to explain Dewey lovely, healthy skin for over 35-year-olds to a bunch of male investors is so hard. Yeah, that was very hard. But I think that

I was 50. Johnny was actually 53 when he died. Oh, was he? Yeah, and I was 50. And, or 49 maybe. I can't remember 49 or 50. I think I was maybe 49. I wasn't working so much.

Residue income was drying. up. I knew I want to start the business. Johnny died. There was a lot of stuff to deal with. And even though lots of advice was just going to get a regular job, first of I thought, what would I do? I didn't know. Yes. I was also, I really just had this now or never. I really had it to do it. It was like I knew I had to do it and I knew it would be challenging and it was challenging because nobody that I went, I mean, I first of all sort of bootstrapped it and then I did a clothing sell in my house because I knew I was going to have to rent my house out because I couldn't afford the mortgage and the mortgage was changing. It was the end of a term and then

I wasn't on the same salary so they weren't going to give me the same mortgage and I thought I'm not going to be able to afford the house. Then I had to, the thing for, I was fighting in court that I should be liable for Johnny's debts and I was paying lawyers bills and then I had to ultimately pay starting the business I needed some money. So there was like all shit was going on. Whilst trying to navigate Johnny. Yeah. So my decision was I've got to do it.

Yeah. It just was I got to do it. I had to do it. There was no alternative. I had to do it. When we have ideas inside our head, they're safe to Vina. You know, we don't have to execute on them. We can live the fantasy of them. We can sit down next to somebody at dinner and talk about our idea. It gives us a raison d'etra. It makes us feel significant and relevant. but we're never taking it outside our head. So it's safe, but we never have to feel failure, but we never see success.

And at some stage, you have to take it out of your head. So for me, I think things have to become pulled away from you, like my moment in Cottonwood, but just that sense of you have to be, it's so raw that there's no superficial reasoning to prevent you from actually making the fucking decision and doing it. That's the thing. So it was like everything came together and that was then the catalyst. And then whatever challenges, there were challenges that came in. I did many meetings.

Many people said, no. Many people said, love the idea, but digital. Any woman over 35 won't understand how to buy makeup online. They won't understand the personalisation you want to create. And it should be for a Gen Z. And I was like, no, because Gen Z's is a ton of brands that have no emotional significance that don't understand those women that have models who look like they're 20? No.

No, you know, but it took me a long time to convince people. When did you go? Okay, holy shibbles. Like, this is really happening. How many years in did you think, oh, my God. I started in 2000 and the end of 2017. So 2018 was my first four year. 2020 went into COVID.

So I'd been trading two and a bit years. And there were a lot of women who loved what we were doing but shopped in store. And then when COVID came, we were the only people who had personalisation, nobody else did it. Even like Tilbury and all these others, they were retail first. So they hadn't built for online. Retail was their, you know, online was their secondary business. But for us, you had matched to me. You could pick my skin hair and eye in.

you tell us about yourself and then we will give you the right products. And so women did. And we went from and we've had 1.7 million customers. But we started with, you know, maybe we had 150,000 customers. By the time we came out of COVID, we had 700,000 customers or something, you know. So I think then after COVID you had some people who then wanted to just go back to store and buy. But we had enough women who thought I didn't know if I should trust. I had to trust because of the circumstance of COVID.

And then they told their friends, just trust. It actually will tell you what you suit. And then we did skincare, which I'd always was like my biggest passion. Skin care is now bigger than makeup. Wow. Is it really? It's more revenue than makeup for us. It's like 51% to 49%.

Wow. And I've been obsessed so we had our own lab. We didn't just get it made by somebody else. Yes. You know, I'm very involved in every ingredient that goes in and what sugar. You know, I'm kind of obsessed. I do read a lot of clinical trial research papers. I'm really looking at what's just a fad and what actually can shift skin.

You know, there's now ingredients that can act as signals to make things go deeper in your skin to actually work. So the way in, you know, there are women we have in our fifties who think skincare is what they tried in their 20s and 30s. So they don't think it would do much. Now. But science has come along so far that you can make molecule sizes smaller. They can go deeper. You can use tools like micro needles to put products in deeper. You can actually shift your skin.

You don't have to, you know, have a face lift. I don't believe you have to have a facelift. You can have a facelift. You can do Botox. You do whatever you like. Ever you like. I've had Botox since 35. Fill your boots.

Yeah, fill your boots. But the fundamental thing of healthy looking skin with a great texture comes from skincare. And healthy looking skin is anti-eathing. Don't say the word anti-aging. Oh, go on. Tell me what do I say. I wouldn't say pro-aging either. I would just say, I think... Youthifying.

It's the perception. Oh, yes, that we shouldn't want to look younger. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, because I think... I have these people on social who might say, why can't you age gracefully? Because I put a lot of effort into being well, you and I fitness, supplements, skin, everything, all right?

So I think it's about, I think it's actually more to do with menopause because I feel that we have been many years where, you know, we didn't talk about menopause. Then we talked about menopause. I went into menopause 17 years ago. So I've been researching it for a long time. But I do believe in it that our bodies traditionally would be a certain age at 14 year fertile, have babies, then hit menopause and then slowly die because all of those. Those hormones are coming out of your system and you will age. You will accelerate your aging. Men's slightly different, but, you know, they have andropause.

But the idea for me is, should I go against that natural biological determination? Fuck yes. And should I have all the estrogen testosterone, progesterone until I'm in my carven? Absolutely. There's receptors all over my body. So I should. It's not just in my ovaries. and will it make me have more energy and life and vibrancy?

Yes. And therefore, do I want my skin to look good? And do I want to feel that total physical, attitudinal and ascetic energy? So that's why for me all of these things are important, you know. And I think that's the important thing that you've just said. That's why all of these things for me are important. But if the lady who's writing in going, why don't you grow gracefully, if that's what you want to do, then you do it

and we will stand here going, well done. But you see, I don't believe that. Oh, you don't. I mean, the thing is like, Mel Robbins is like, let them. Yeah. Oh my God. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that.

Oh, my God. So I'll tell you what I feel about this, just for a second for the expected. So I did actually go and listen to Mel Robbins and I even read her book and stuff. but and I think she has a podcast with some really good guess on it. She is an amazing. She's a good woman who wants to do good in the world. But this concept, let them, is an interesting one because it's sort of we can drive ourselves to torturous illness by trying to control situations.

And therefore let them is to release in yourself that sense and that need to control. Yes. Okay, so I 100% get that. Yeah. And it's like with our children, everything, we can come from, just let go. But I think when I see women who comment negatively, it reminds me of when Susanna and I do what not to wear and we were in situations where sometimes we had a whole load of people to choose from, I always know, because I have a little, I am slightly psychic, of knowing who was the most challenging. person in the room for me to makeover who needed it the most, I always knew who that person was. And when I read my DMs and sometimes I go from primary to general to the weird requests

where I'll always look there because there's somebody who always wants to get in touch. And I feel sometimes when I scroll through and I'll open the 50th and there's thousands that will come in, there's a reason that my finger would click on that. So if I then see a woman saying, oh, why can't you old age gracefully? I actually write back and I say, I want you to ask yourself what triggered in you when you saw that and ask yourself what makes you feel uncomfortable about what you see and why.

Because you need to ask yourself that. And that's the messages I leave. And I'd never do it on the public Instagram because I think that's insulting. But I will do it on a DM. Because I do feel, or like even at the weekend, somebody did a one that I screen grabbed actually, but I was wearing a plastic belt. And I loved it. It brought me such joy. And it was so obvious when I was putting it on this weird big peplum belt that I loved. I'd seen on something, that's mad. But that would challenge me. Challenge how I dress. You know, I love to continue to be challenged. And this woman said, I mean, that was just clickbait and you have responsibility to women.

and it was a disservice to women of what you did. I mean, it was so aggressive. And I wrote back and I said, I dress to bring myself joy. Yeah. So what did you find difficult? You know, what are you finding? And I took her name aware, put a little cloud there.

And I posted it on my stories. Because I wanted her to see it. I didn't want to reveal who she was, but I wanted her to see it. and I've never done that before and I don't know if I would do it again because I think it's something that should be private somebody's DM'd you privately

but they wrote those words for a reason and sometimes it's much easier for us to leave well alone the people who we feel are tormented in life but I have a fucking beacon towards them and it's for a reason and I will know that in some instances I might shift somebody's perceptions

themselves or make them look at something that they found challenging to look at and that's a part of the reason I'm here. I wondered if you could give me like three actionable things that women could do to help themselves. I would say that in order to shift, we do need to remove for our life people who are not there for us. And I think it's a really important thing to do. Really hard to Yeah. Sometimes. But sometimes you just like, even it's a goodbye email.

It's like, I don't believe I bring that much to your life right now. So I think for now we should just let go of our relationship. And I've done that a couple of times. But I think it's important. I think the other thing for me, and it's a really difficult one, because something I say a lot to Vina, and then we haven't done that today. But 90% of the time I live in the present and the future,

and I don't live in the past. because I believe there's so much more to come and I think when I speak to people who are in their mid-60s who talk more about the past it's because they don't have things to look forward to in their life today or in the future it's not just lovely nostalgia

what we did today was beautiful nostalgia memories that are really important to remind myself of because it's so important to remember why I got married Johnny why I loved him why we wanted to have Lila all these things are so important to hold on to especially for Lila. I want Lila to understand how much Johnny and I loved each other. And that's really important for her to know.

So yes, to talk about that. But so think about what you live in the most. That's a really important thing. Do you live in the present and the future? And when you live in the future, this thing which I do say a lot, but it's 99% of everything we think about doesn't happen. The amount of time we dedicate to worry can really, really affect our body. It can really affect our mental state of mind. It can really affect our

relationship with other people. And so I, and I have to continuously remind myself of this. And I will sometimes get really carried away by over-worrying. And then if you spent a week, this is a thing you could do, wake up and just, you know how people do gratitude list. Do the opposite. You wake up with worry. What's that worry? What's that worry? Write down every single worry, every single worry. Like, I'm worried I won't get the bus. I'm worried the food will burn. I'm worried my My daughter won't call me back. I'm worried. I'm going to do everything and see how many of them actually were true at the end of the week. Yes. You know, that would be a good exercise. And what an absolute waste of time. Wait. And how much time. And how much time. Yeah. That's all I'm going to give you today. Well, I'm going to end there. I mean, if you're saying that's all you're going to give us, that was a lot. Trinney, everyone. DeVina, everyone. Oh, my God. Trinnie, that was fucking brilliant.

So just in case you missed this episode here, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that. Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. And they're here with me on Spotify.

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