Begin Again with Davina McCall - We Saved Each Other From Addiction | Sarah Hiscox “I Wouldn’t Be Alive Without You”

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

What if your ‘begin again’ moment comes after you lose everything your marriage, your children, your best friend, and almost yourself? Sarah Hiscox is Davina’s best friend of nearly 40 years, but this is a side of their story that has never been told like this before. In this episode of Begin Again, Sarah Hiscox joins Davina to talk about friendship, addiction, shame, motherhood, recovery, love, and the long road back to herself. Sarah opens up about growing up with low self-worth, an alcoholic mother, and a childhood where difficult feelings were pushed down rather than spoken about. She reflects on the early experiences that shaped her relationship with shame, food, pills, and eventually heroin. Davina and Sarah also revisit the moment their friendship changed both of their lives, from Sarah confronting Davina about her drug use, to Davina later having to draw a painful boundary when Sarah’s own addiction had taken hold. Together, they speak honestly about what it means to love someone through addiction, while also knowing you cannot save them unless they are ready to save themselves. Sarah shares the devastating reality of losing her marriage, her children, and almost her life to heroin addiction, as well as the moment she finally found a way to begin again. She talks about getting clean, rebuilding trust with her children, finding her way back to her husband Renshaw, and learning how to become the mother she had always wanted to be. This is also a conversation about creativity, self-belief, and finally finding your voice. Sarah discusses writing her debut novel, The Beginning and the End of Everything, and why becoming an author has been one of the most meaningful chapters of her life. At its heart, this is a story about love in all its forms: friendship, marriage, motherhood, forgiveness, and chosen family. Sarah Hiscox reminds us that even after shame, addiction and loss, it is possible to come home to yourself, and to the people who never stopped loving you. This episode contains conversations about addiction, eating disorders, overdose and recovery, please watch with care. 🌟 Like, comment, and subscribe for more honest conversations about identity, growth, and beginning again. Tap the bell to stay connected with new episodes of Begin Again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Follow Sarah Hiscox: https://www.instagram.com/popular/sarah-hiscox/ ✨Buy Sarah’s book, The Beginning and the End of Everything: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beginning-End-Everything-foreword-Davina/dp/0715656767 ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for all your behind the scenes access, recommendations and much much more at: https://linkly.link/2g2xm Sponsored by: Do Health - The waitlist is open. Begin Again listeners get fixed early access pricing when they sign up today at dohealth.co/beginagain use code BEGINAGAIN Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People are going to think that I'm this terrible person because I chose heroin over my children. The cry already, it's usually you that's crying. Oh God. Sarah Hisccox, you are my best friend. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. I remember meeting you and it was love at first sight. You were taking heroin and I thought it was going to lose you. Will you just tell the story where my begin again happened with you? Oh, my darling.

There was a big void in me. I must have been 13 and I found. some pills in the bathroom cabinet and they were very, very strong opioid. And so I definitely remember being addicted to those. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. And so I was really worried when you went, I tried heroin for the first time. No, no, no, I'm not going to do it again. And that's how it was.

God. Until it wasn't. In the end, my husband divorced me and took custody of the children. People lose their families all the time. But there is something about a mother. losing her own children. I thought, I've got to try and start pulling a life back together. I'm going to read you something.

Oh, God. Mum. Oh, God. Oh, God. Well, this is weird. Very weird. Yeah, yeah. This is Sarah Hiscox, and she is my best friend.

And very importantly, you help me begin again. Yeah. And profound begin again. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. And I helped you begin again. In a very profound manner and the same, I don't know if I'd be alive without you. I'm going to cry already. It's usually you that's crying.

Oh, God. And also, I think that you are very inspirational for anybody out there who is just trying to find their things. So you have tried many different things to find out if that was going to. be your creative outlet. Yeah. And I want to talk through that later, but you ended up taking a writing course.

Yeah. You got a literary agent. Then you got a book deal. And you have released a bloody book. A bloody book. Can you believe it? I know. Still can't quite believe it.

Wow. Yeah. So Sarah Hisccox, the beginning and the end of everything, out now. Yeah. Forward by some bird called Davy. McAul.

Never heard of her. No. Some old bag. No idea who she is. I don't think anybody's in the least interested either. It's the Sarah Hiscock's bit they'll be looking at,

not the Davina McCall bit. You're megalomaniac. And you've got a little bit of a recommendation from Gillian Anderson on here. She very kindly gave me a quote, which is very generous of her, yeah. That's good. Very nice.

Yeah, really lovely. But this is a massive achievement. Yes. I just want to say, well done. It feels weird though, you're saying that. That doesn't sit comfortably with me, you saying that. I just want to talk about something else, which is ridiculous because that's why I'm here. Because it's that imposter syndrome thing of, well, it's, I'm not a real writer.

You know, it's, I know, because I've written a book and it's been published. Like, how much more proof do I need? But I think that really is what the book, I mean, as you know, the book is a book. a lot more stuff. But centrally, it's about, centrally, it's about feelings of low self-esteem and low self-worth, which I've struggled with for all my life. That's really it, I think. And for me, it's the ultimate love story.

And you're right, it is the ultimate love story. I mean, really, honestly, beyond all odds. I keep, whenever, against all odds, I think, I keep thinking of that Phil Collins song. Take a look at me now. I would like to talk about how interesting it was, seeing how autobiographical this is, how much about you, having known you and been your best friend for 40 years, how much I didn't know.

I know, that's crazy, isn't it? It is weird. Oh, because we have had so many conversations, obviously, over the years, you know, deep, meaningful conversations. So that is strange, yeah. When I read about your childhood, and I think really when we became friends, at 19. Yeah. I just started our life from there. Yeah. Well, so did I. Yeah. And we didn't ask each other

tons of questions about our childhood. We were just like, who are you now? You're my person. Let's go. But also we didn't have the emotional language then. But we did have a trauma bond. We did have a trauma bond. Our mothers. Our mothers. You know, and they made us close from the get-go, I think. Yeah. Well, first off, where did you grow up? I grew up in London. And then we moved to Suffolk when I was about eight. And I was definitely a kind of daddy's girl. Didn't get on with my mom. She was an alcoholic and not particularly brilliant at mothering.

She prized sort of thinness and beauty above all. And there was a mantra that she used to say to my sister and I, which was laugh and the heart. World loss with you, cry and you cry alone, which is not great for a small child. So basically, chin up, get on with it. Yeah. You know, nobody's interested in your histrionics, just smile and look pretty. And Anne Manners was a big thing.

And she was a terrible snob as well. You weren't allowed to say settee. We weren't allowed to read Inad Blighton books because she said they were badly written. And I mean, she would have positively burst into flames if we'd use the word radio instead of wireless. I mean, yeah, it just goes on. Yeah, so weird. And she wasn't grand herself. So I don't know where that came from.

But from very young, and it seems a lot. I mean, I know, you know, you have similar experience. And a lot of my girlfriends do this sort of. 70s rather neglectful parenting. Yeah. And I think that, you know, them being, our parents being the children of people, you know, who were alive during the war. Yeah. I don't know why that is.

But it seems quite common that kind of 70s neglectful parenting. And I want to be really careful not to blame her because what I do know, and we've discussed this before, is that she absolutely did the best she could with what you she had. She was unable to give anymore because she didn't have it in her. You know, so that, I want to be careful not to blame her, but there was from a very early age this feeling of not being good enough. But then I suffered from terrible nightmares. I don't remember what they were, but just not sleeping, not sleeping. So my mum, remember I'm eight, my mom took me to the local doctor and he gave me Mogadom. Now, I mean, again, I don't think I was fully aware that that had started for you so

young. But no, as I mean, this is insane. I wasn't aware until I started writing the book. It just did it. It was so normal in my house to just help yourself to pills. They were everywhere. So it didn't really occur to me. But I mean, you know, it's one thing to give a grown woman something like that.

But an eight-year-old child, Mogadon was what, a downer? It's a very powerful sleeping pill. Right. You know, prescription-only sleeping pill. Yeah. That is not available anymore probably because it's so addictive and powerful. But then, I mean, it would just, you know, knock out a bloody horse. And I was a small eight-year-old girl and my mother didn't think twice about giving it to me.

It had been sanctioned by a doctor. so it must be all right. So I remember taking the pill. I mean, it was like a gateway to something completely different. It was like having a big blanket wrapped around me. It was delicious. And I think I was prescribed him for a couple of weeks. Two weeks of sleeping pills.

I mean, nowadays they say, nonstop. You would be completely addicted by them. Yeah, three days, they say now. Yes. But then two weeks is a long time. But anyway, two weeks. and then and then the nightmare's returning. Then when I was a bit older, I found some pills in the,

so I must have been 12 or 13, and I found some pills in my dad's, or in the bathroom cabinet, and they were called palfium. And they're a very, very strong opioid, very powerful, very fast acting. and I would take those when I got home from school. But again, they're in the bathroom cabinet along with my mom's tan packs and her clinic toner. You know, so it was fine.

And so I definitely remember being addicted to those when I was 13. And when they ran out becoming ill, you know, diarrhea. Wow. Stomachate. All of that stuff. But I didn't know what it was. Wow. You know, so.

But again, It wasn't until I started writing the book that I remembered all that stuff. So when we met, let's just set this story up. Yeah. You and I met at a party. Yeah. And I remember meeting you and it was love at first sight. Yeah.

And by the end of the party, I was like, I want to see you a lot more. Every day. Every day. Yeah. It was really funny. Yeah. Falling in love with a girl. Yeah.

And being like, you're my person. Absolutely. Yeah. and it was instant from then on. Now, before that, before I met you, because this is very key to our story, I think, you had been in a car crash. Can you just talk us through what had happened in the car crash?

Yes, so I had just finished my A-levels at school and I had gone to Spain with two girlfriends to stay with people that we knew that were living out there, in Malaga. And we were in a car coming home from a nightclub. And we were going round a hairpin bend. You know, there's really windy roads in the mountains in Spain. And we were on the wrong side of the road.

And basically, the car came round the bend and knocked us off and we fell down the side of a cliff. And the car sort of crumpled up like paper. and the other two was sort of okay, superficial scars, but I had cut into the protective layer of my brain and so I had to be in hospital for a long time. How long? I think I was in hospital for three months. How?

But I wasn't because with a, well, I mean, as you know, with a head injury or brain injury, and you have to be very careful. So I was told that I had to, take, I had a place at art college that I was going to go to and I told I had to take a year off from that to recover. No kind of going out late, no partying, no drugs. I had to be really careful of all that stuff. So obviously that was quite, that was quite difficult at that time because I was 18 and that's when everybody's celebrating and that's going, and it's your start

of your adulthood, isn't it? And also just remembering that this was around. the time of like 1988 summer of love ecstasy was everywhere everyone's like you know in the football terraces

it's everywhere like it was huge raves those enormous raves illegal raves everywhere and you couldn't delve into any of that so for me who was in all of that and I was on

at the beginning of me going really mad. Yeah. You felt like my safe place. Yeah. But you didn't feel safe or confident. But to me, I thought you were. It was reading the book was such an eye-opener for me,

knowing how you really felt back then. But we both served, we both served a purpose for each other. Maybe you didn't know, but I didn't really know. I just saw you as this fabulous. sort of peacock that I wanted to be more like, you know, and that you, you know, you're, when you turn your light on someone, it's very warm there. It feels good, you know, and so I felt, I felt so happy that you, you know, that you did that for me. And so the, but we were doing that for each other. And also, I, I did know your backstory and I, I could, you know, you were living in, you were living

in your dad's like cupboard basically in your dad and stepmother's flats in Olympia, do you know, so well I mean that's where you know, that's where my begin again happened with you. Yeah. Just it's, I mean, it makes me laugh sometimes

actually when you think about how it happened but will you just tell the story? Of how I confronted you. So what, like I'd got bad. So you got bad and and I could tell that it wasn't just like a couple of e you were taking heroin, you know, and that to me, well, to most people with any sense, is incredibly dangerous.

And I thought it was going to lose you. And it wasn't just being the center of attention at a party or it was something much darker that had taken you over. And I was aware people talking about you behind your back. And I was aware that you were kind of sliding out of year. Yeah. And I was losing myself. You were losing yourself. And you'd always, to me, one of the huge attractions of you to me

was that you always seemed so self-assured you knew who you were. You knew who you were. You knew what you wanted. But then that suddenly seemed to go. And so remember, I was working for a PR company. I've been given tickets to Santana, the Hammersmith Palais. And I was like, do you want to come? You were like, yeah, all right.

I was like, why would you? But anyway, I remember picking you up in my little mini metro outside your dad's flat. Yeah. And you're getting in the car and me turning to you and saying, listen, I'm really worried about you. Can I just say something? I'm back there.

I can feel that I'm right back in that car as well. So weird. So weird. It was dark. It was winter. I was like, what? Well, you were, it's funny because we have slow. different memories of it.

Yes. Which is also strange. But I remember you being crumbling quite quickly because I think you were scared. Oh my God. Well, I was a bit angry. You were a bit angry at the beginning. You were talking to me about it. Like, how dare you?

But then the minute I got out of the car, I mean, your memory might, maybe I did crumble before. I mean, it was so long ago, right? Yeah. But I cried all the way to the front door, but I was like, I can't let her. I see how broken I am, but I know I'm, I know I'm fucked. And you were fucked? And I know this is the end.

Yeah. I was so full of shame. You telling me that people were talking about me. It's hard that. Was the thing that finished me off because I thought, oh my God, I am the topic of conversation and I'm not there. I know. How awful. I hate that.

Yeah. I hate the idea that. And it's sort of like slightly patronizing. I heard about Devinia. She's such a mirth. Yeah, she's a real, she lost it. Oh, God. And because also there is a, there is a, in some people, there is a glee in that, you know.

I remember hearing in a meeting once, you can really tell how healthy you are by how you feel about your friend's success. Yes. And that's so true, you know. And so there was, there was a glee in some people that, oh dear, she's lost it, you know. But I was frightened for you. I did know that. Yeah. I did know that.

There was no malice. No, that's what I confronted you. There was no malice. I wanted you to stop. I wanted you back because also I could feel and you know what it's like with heroin. It puts a wall between you both and I could feel that wall. And I didn't want that there because you were the person that I spoke to. You were my person.

You know, you were mother, father, brother, sister to me. So I needed you back. so it was purely selfish actually So I remember that very well And that was a huge turning point for you Well it was everything I didn't use again I went to a meeting the next day

And that was it And that was it And I didn't drink again And I've never had to drink again I know I know It's a big deal Thank you

Oh my darling Oh my darling Oh Thank you. I am so grateful. I'm so grateful that you saw me. Yeah. Thank you.

And what's funny was when I said I was going to interview you to a couple of people that didn't know about your book and everything. I said I'm interviewing my best friend. And they went, what the one from the car? And because on diary of a CEO when I did my interview, I talked about you. And that moment and how you changed my life. There are moments that one remembers.

Huge moments that you begin again with. You know, you can have more than one. You can have, I've had a few. You've had a few, you know. But it is that willingness to try and begin again and also to hope that it will be better as well. and you had that. And then life just completely changed for you.

Well, for us. For us. It was amazing. Once you'd taken that step. It was, yeah, monumental. So thank you. It's a pleasure. Well, honestly, you did the same.

And you got married. Yeah, very young. Well, reasonably young, yeah. How old were you when you married, weren't sure? I was 23 when I got married. So let's just talk about how you met and how annoying I was. I'm really sorry about it. Oh, my God, you were so annoying.

I mean, you were meant to be my friend. You humiliated me in front of my soon-to-be hopeful boyfriend. So basically, I'd met Renshaw and was mad about him. Couldn't quite believe he was mad about me. And I remember him taking him to your club Quiet Storm, which was just like full of the trendiest, grievous, like was and I was just you know I was on the guest list so it was a real like we should go to quiet storm I'm on the guest list and plus one you can be my plus one you know it's a win for me

and bringing him into the club I was so excited and you were so excited because obviously you knew all about it and what did you do can I show you what you did so there you come towards us in the PVC or whatever you're wearing and and you come towards us and I'm like div This is Renshaw, this is Dive. And you go, Oh my God. Oh my God.

I've had so much about you. And I just stood back in absolute horror. Like, what are you doing? Like, you're meant to pretend. I haven't even mentioned his name. It's like all sense of being cool and nonchalant was gone. But you did fall in love. I did absolutely fall in love.

And so did he. Love of my life. And it was the most unbelievable. thing to behold, I've got to say, as an outsider looking in, I remember wishing and hoping that I might one day also enjoy a love like that. It was extraordinary. And your wedding was one of the most joyful days of my life. Well, I've just, when I think of you talking about the wedding, do you know what I see? What? I see you on the, on the pole. On the pole. On the Polve of the marquee in a really, really short kilt, tiny, tiny kilt. Bobby socks and high heels. She hasn't moved on. Like pole dancing against the marquee.

But I'm so glad you had fun. What I love about you is like you create your own fun. I remember being in a restaurant. I haven't stopped. I'm still doing insane. I remember for my 40th, we went to this. restaurant and they were taking a really long time bringing the food there was like some some issue in the kitchen maybe then had a fire or something and so everybody we're like there for an hour

the food still aren't come you just start dancing and singing and it was like she's just creating her own fun it's just leave her to it no I love it I love it I love it I love it thank God for that because it's not changing I know and I never want to it to change. I've partnered with Do Health for this episode and I want to tell you why. 46% of Do Health members showed signs of hidden cardiovascular risk after doing their blood test.

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Yeah. And this was heavy. Yeah. You were bulimic. Yeah. Yeah. When did that start? Okay.

So that started in my early 20s, late teens, early 20s. It was something that I could do that nobody. knew about that gave me some kind of relief from the feelings that I was feeling inside. And the interesting, well, the thing about bulimia is that people don't tend to talk about it because with anorexia, which of course is a deadly disease. Yes. There seems to be quite a lot of people talk about anorexia, maybe because there is that sense of control around it.

With bulimia, there's no control. And it's deeply shameful. You know, it's drug addicts, I hear it in meetings, tend to talk up their drug addiction. You know, like, oh man, I was so bad. I was, you know, sticking a needle in my eye. There is nothing glamorous or rock and roll about coming back from a party and eating sort of 17 M&S shortbread and then throwing it up. Like, there's no glamour there. And there's a disgust and there's definitely self-discussed.

This idea of stuffing. Yeah. And then purge. And then putting your fingers down and throwing it up. Yeah. It's disgusting. And it is disgusting. You know, so I kept that quiet for a long time, but it became very bad. You know, I was doing it very thin. I got very thin, but then I put on a lot of weight.

So at first, I don't know if you remember, but I lost weight. This is working marvelously. And then because of the amount of food I was eating, you can. I couldn't get rid of it. So I started putting on weight. And then that just spun me out. And I couldn't understand why I wasn't losing weight. And then that feeling of the, like I said, the self-discussed, the hatefulness that I felt toward myself, the violence I felt towards myself was the way that I spoke to myself, just like, you know, you're ugly, you're fat, you know, you're just this self-loathing.

this absolute disgust at myself. And I put on the weight very quickly after that. And also your face becomes puffy. I mean, your body's just trying to probably hold on to any kind of nutrition. Yeah, because it's things it's dying. You know, you're going to get rid of it. So it's holding onto everything. And I just, I was thinking the other day, my God,

if I spoke to my children, the way that I spoke to myself doing that, time, they would have been taken away from me. I mean, imagine if one of your daughters came up to and said, I hate myself, I hate the way I look, I disgust myself, you would just put your arms around them, like, we're going to get you any kind of help we can. But that's, you didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anyone, but then I told you. Yeah.

And you were the only person I told. And the thing was that the difficult thing with food, which is different from. drugs and alcohol is that with drugs and alcohol, you're abstinent from them. With food, you can't, you've got to eat. So it's really hard. And it's not lost on me now that I'm the thinnest person I know. You know, I have a complicated relationship with food. I still do. I have to be very careful about what I eat when I eat. I don't stop myself from eating the things that I want. But I'm just mindful because

honestly, the bulimia was so much worse in many ways than the drug addiction. Yeah, really. Although the consequences, the outside consequences for the heroin addiction were much bigger. But the internal consequences are terrible, yeah. It's the shame.

And shame keeps people quiet. It keeps people silent. Yes. So if you don't shine a light on it, by talking about it, it just grows in the corner, which is what happened. So I didn't get help. So at the time, you know, on paper, it looks like your life is going brilliantly. Yeah. You've done art college.

Yeah. You've met Ranshaw. Yeah. Getting married. You're getting married. But that isn't healing you. No. Why not?

Because it's an inside job. You know, it's a void. that within that is within me. I remember listening, watching one of your begin agains with Spencer Matthews and he was talking about his addiction and he was saying that when he met his wife, it made him want to be a better person and he stopped. That was the opposite from, I didn't have that experience. That was not my experience.

My experience was that if I wasn't all right, he would leave. me, you know, so I had to keep all these things undercover. If I wasn't thin enough, if I wasn't pretty enough, if I wasn't clever enough, if I wasn't funny enough. That's your mum. Yeah. Then he was going to leave me. And oh my God, he might find out any time.

Anytime he's going to, I'm an imposter. He's going to find out who I really am. And if he knew how I felt about myself, he'd be off in a minute. So I had to keep these things truly hidden. And like I said, when they're hidden, that that's when it's. It's poisonous and it goes bad. So there was this, it just felt like a big void in me. And I'd try filling it with Renshaw, with food, with, I don't know, a new pair of jeans or, but nothing works.

Because that's not how you fill it. That's not what happens. But I didn't know that then. I didn't have any book to say, okay, well, this is what you need to do. Yeah. And so I just felt, well, I'm going to get pregnant one day. And that'll stop. Because when I have a baby, then everything's going to be fine.

Yes. And then I had a baby. And honestly, when he was born, your godson, Linus, all those feelings I'd felt all my life about not being enough, not this enough, not that enough. disappeared. This tiny thing of perfectness of beauty and purity and the love that you have for a baby is so different from any kind of love

because the love that I experienced before was either of my parents, which was very complicated, love hate, Wrenshaw, loved him, but there's always jealousies and others. There's so much more in that word of love.

But with your child, it's pure. It's just love. And I'd never experienced that before. And it was overwhelming. And I remember staring at him on the bed and just being quite overwhelmed with that feeling of love. And that, you know, lasted. And then motherhood, I was scared of being a mother because I'd not been mothered very well. I remember calling my sister, Belinda, and saying, I'm scared I'm going to be a terrible mother.

And she said to me, whatever our mum did, just do the opposite. And that seemed like a really good place to start. I was like, okay, that's good. That makes sense. And I thought, well, if I just love him, you know, nothing else matters. But I was young. Everyone was on these, my bestest friend in the whole world was on this massive career trajectory. because I'd started working on MTV.

You are on MTV. Yeah. Traveling. Traveling. Having an exciting, glamorous life. Yeah. I hadn't thought about what that must be like if you're at home with a baby. I was jealous.

I was jealous of you. I was envious. It's funny because I... I know. I wanted your life. I know. But it's that thing of... It's never enough.

Well, you always what you haven't got. And I just felt so... lonely. Renshaw was doing a degree in architecture. I think it was his final year. So he was away most of the time or at work most of the time. And I was at home with Linus on my own, you know, making Shepherd's Pie watching the Tweenies. And I, I just felt completely isolated. and that void of you're not enough, you just, you know, you're just not enough. You know, that opened up again

and I didn't know how to fill it. And I was really scared about bulimia, which I was still making myself sick then, not as much, but it was just a feeling of hopelessness. Like, I don't know where to go with this empty feeling. And even while I'm saying it to now, I'm thinking, God, you sound just like a spoil bitch. But it wasn't about that.

It was about internally what was going on inside. Well, like you said earlier, it's an inside job, good and bad. Yeah. It's all in here. Yeah. And it doesn't matter what's happening on the outside. If you're not well in here, you can't enjoy anything. No.

So I got a part-time job. and it was working with somebody who was taking heroin. They were people that worked sort of in and around the kind of fashion industry and there was an element of excitement and danger to these people because they took heroin. I thought the first time that you'd taken heroin was in India. It was. Oh, okay. It was.

It was in India. So because that, I think that is worth the story worth telling because you. You and I had lunch at Models 1. You might not remember this. But you came to Models 1. Yeah. And we went out for coffee on at World's End. Yeah.

And we went to go and have lunch. And you'd come back from India. I was like, how was it? Was it good? And you went, yeah, it was amazing. Then we were chatting away and you went, I tried heroin for the first time. And I went, what? And I was like, why did you do that?

And you went, no, no, no, I'm not going to do it again. I just. I do remember that. I just, you know, I just tried it. And you were like, I mean, me and Wrench both tried it and we're definitely not going to do it again. And I was thinking to myself, but you know what it did to me. I know. Why would you do that?

But I didn't say it out loud because I thought, well, let's just wait and see. But I was really worried after that lunch. We did try in India and I had built it up into this thing because of you, because of other people we knew that had problems, had problems, lost their life to it. And so it was something that was very scary for me. I mean, sort of drugs were quite scary for me, really. Yeah, 10 years with no drugs.

No drugs. And also I didn't like the idea of not being in control or something. Like, I didn't like, but what if I think I've got wings and I want to fly off? Yes. Or what if I go mad? That was the thing. I couldn't control my thoughts. Yes.

And also you've been told by the doctor. Not to do anything mood altering because it would be dangerous. Exactly. So that is a reality that you think could happen. Absolutely. So heroin was always, well, heroin was something, obviously I'd had the experience with you, but also kind of Zamo in Grangell, you know, people sell their grandmother, you know, so I was like, oh, I'm not going to do that.

And then we did end up doing it in India. And I have to say that the first time I did it, I was very sick, really sick, like I'd been poor. well, I had been poisoned. And the moment the sickness finished, I was like, I want to do it again. But the thing about it is for me was all those things, the pills, the food, they work to a certain extent on filling the void, making me feel as good as momentarily. Momentarily, not really. Yeah, it didn't really do the job. Heroin did the job.

I mean, it was like that hole just went, and I was normal. It wasn't like I was some crazed junkie that was behaving in an irrational way. I just felt normal. Like, oh my God, this is how normal people feel. This is how they cope in their life without those voices of your shit, you're fat, your thing, you're stupid. You know, all the voices just disappeared. And so I was in. I was in.

But like you said, I just thought, but I'm going to be the one in control of this. That shit that happened to you isn't going to happen to me. She's an addict. Yeah, she's an addict. I'm not. And I've got a baby and a husband and a house and a life. And a life. I don't need to.

If I could just do this alongside those things, I don't need that career that you've got. I don't need to have a MA and. philosophy, you know, I'll be all right. And that's how it was. God. Until it wasn't. How bad did it get? It got really bad. So I had gone to rehabs. You know, I was in a very privileged position that my husband could afford to send me to rehabs and pay for therapists. And I did those things and that didn't stop me using. Why not? Because I is such a good question that. Why not? Because I wasn't ready. I mean, how ready do you need to be? But that void kept opening up every time I stopped. And now I knew how to fill it. And even though I could see my life

crashing around me, it just didn't seem like an option. I, if I, if I, I, if I, I, I, if I, I, I, I, and I, I, and even though I could see my life, I, felt like, I mean, this is the most ridiculous thing to say, and I know it doesn't make sense, and I know that it's not true, but it almost felt like there was this malevolent spirit had taken over, and it was making me do things that I didn't want to do. I just tried. It wasn't like every time I came out of rehab, I just thought, no, fuck it, I can't be bothered. I tried so hard every day. I'm not going to use, I'm not going to use. And then something would, a switch would go. and the choice had been taken away from me

and I couldn't understand why because in the end, Renshaw divorced me. You loved Renshaw. Yes, very much. You still loved Renshaw, even though you were using. Yeah. And you knew if you didn't stop using.

I would lose him. You would lose him. Yeah. But still, you couldn't stop. I couldn't stop. And what was it like? When did you know he was going to say it? He'd given me so many chances.

and I had almost given up on myself and thought I didn't have the courage to take my own life I couldn't see a life in which I wasn't using heroin because I couldn't do it I tried so many times I couldn't do it so obviously wasn't capable of it and then one day he called me and we met up we weren't living together at that time I don't know where I think maybe I was at my sisters.

I can't remember. And he spoke to me and he said, it's like you've had a lover. I've lost you to someone else, but instead of a man, it's heroin. And I can't do this anymore, Sarah. I can't, oh, God. He said, I can't, I'm worried that I'm going to end up bringing the children

to, you know, a grave. and I can't do that to them. I have to look after them. And so he said, you know, that's it. I can't, you know, you don't seem to want to do it. So, and I remember screaming inside thinking, no, no, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.

And I remember him saying, because we had two sons then, Linus, who must have been four and Beach, who was one, and him saying I'm going to have to tell Linus and I just I just didn't want him to tell Linus because I knew

oh it was just awful and when he left that pub after he said I you better get a lawyer because I'm going to divorce you I'm going to take custody of the children that sort of sense of hopelessness but then within that hopelessness

a tiny little flame of hope of like I'm going to do it this time I'm going to do it I remember walking past the house, our old family house where he still live with the children. And I remember him thinking he'd be upstairs with Liners, you know, reading a story and it should be me that was in there. I just didn't. The house was just there. It was just me and the house and how to get from where I was outside the house into the house.

And it seems so simple. Just stop taking heroin. Just stop taking it, you stupid woman. And I just couldn't fucking do it, you know. But again, that feeling of like, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And not doing it. Can I ask you something? You mentioned Beach there, your second son.

How did you navigate being clean with him? With him. I impose this very strict rule on myself that I would use three days on, three days off, because somebody told me, not a doctor obviously that the baby wouldn't be born addicted to heroin so that's what I did

and it was those three days off all I could think about was those three days on and then the three days on would just fill with this awful guilt this terrible guilt of like you know who are you why why is the love

of your children not enough like why isn't it enough and I don't know why it wasn't enough but I do know that addiction is you hear it all the time you know people lose their families all the time but there is something about a mother losing her own children

people judge that very harshly so I was also scared to get help because people would be so disapproving so shocked like she's the mother and I think that's what I think that's what keeps a lot of women and mothers quiet

because it's the shame of it. Addiction is more powerful than anything and it's difficult for people to understand and I can see that because as I'm saying it I'm thinking oh my God people are if they watch this they're going to think that I'm this terrible person because I chose heroin over my children

which I did you know And then I was only allowed to see them with supervised contact. You know, that's pretty. Just to say that. In the end, Renshaw had gone, the children are gone, my sister had gone, my mother had gone. I don't speak to my father. You were the only one I had left. I could still call you up and say, oh, poor me, poor me.

you give me slightly short shrift and then I remember coming to stay at your house for the weekend and I was using at that time and I knew I couldn't use heroin because you'd bloody know

so I took a bottle of methadone and when I left and I hated the weekend because you were this like happy family you had this great career this wonderful husband this wonderful house like you know

perfect family and I was this person that was only and I was only allowed to be there with my children because you were the supervised contact at that point Renshaw had allowed it and I took methadone with me which is a prescription medicine that the doctor will give you to ease withdrawal symptoms

to help stop using and I left a bottle of it in the bin and then do you remember you called me out? Yeah, very well. Yeah. And you went ballistic, didn't you? And you were like, that's it, I'm done. I'm done. If you're ready to get clean, I'm here.

And that was very painful for me. Because I just thought, like, I think I was like, I mean, I hadn't seen methadone for years. And there was some in it. Yeah. There was like some in the bottom. And I was like, what did I do with it? It was like a nuclear kind of. I was like, wow, wow.

Yeah, quick. I needed to like drive to Oxford to put it in a public bin so I couldn't go and get it out of a bin. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do know what you mean. It was like danger. And when I put the phone down from that,

I thought, I wonder if she's going to make it. It's really scared. Because I thought I'm the only one she's got left. And I've just cut her loose. Like, is this going to be it? Is she going to not make it? Because you'd done all the treatment centres. Yeah, it was the end.

It was really feeling desperate. And, you know, I could see. Renshaw still loved you. And I still loved him. He didn't know what to do. He was like, I, he had to protect the children. Nothing's working. So I just put the phone down and just prayed, please take care of Sarah.

Like, please do something, something change. So what happened then? After that phone? Yeah. I mean, I carried on using for a bit. I overdosed. That was really scary. I ended up in some hostel in Ells Court.

Fuck. I know. And with two people and who I didn't really know, one I did. One person I'd met in treatment. And the other person I didn't know. And she had, I think she did have three children. They'd all been adopted. now she'd less or more. It was really bad and I was using and I'd never use needles before

and she said to me well you're not you're not smoking it you if you want it you're going to have to use a needle but by this stage I didn't give a fuck. Yeah so whatever just do it and I overdosed and I ended up I remember waking up in an ambulance and a paramedic saying to me who's the Prime Minister, who's the, how many fingers am I holding up? Who's a Prime Minister? And I didn't know what had happened to me and told me you've overdosed and this fear gripped me of, oh my God, am I going to die? Like, I, because I had no control now, I take in the drug. I didn't know how it worked. Like, am I going to die now? And he took, and they took me on a stretcher into a room where I think I was injected with adrenaline or something. And the doctor there was

quite harsh with me. I was wasting their time. Yeah. Like there were people who are really sick and need them and here was I have some stupid junkie overdosed and they were having to, that's how I felt. Like I remember saying I'm sorry to him. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I was crying because I was frightened. I was crying because I was frightened. And I thought, how have I let it get? How has it got to this? Like how? Like nobody else is doing this. Nobody else is making me do these things. I'm doing this. Couldn't understand how I'd let it get this far. And he was very sweet and said,

do you really want to stop? Yes, I really want to stop. You know, he gave me some pamphlets or something. And it came out of the hospital and I remember sitting on a bench and just feeling so utterly hopeless. Looking at the pamphlets, thinking it's too late, you know,

that it's just too late. and then going off and scoring again. I mean, the insanity arc. The absolute insanity. But it did give me a fright. And, you know, a couple of other things happened. But I'd sort of come to a decision. Even, I can't really explain it.

I didn't have this epiphany. I didn't fall to my knees and have some spiritual awakening. where I thought, I've, I've given up, you know, I'm, I've stopped. No, I never had that. But I think you just don't stop trying. I didn't stop trying. Yeah.

Even though there were times of hopelessness. Yes. There was still, I always think of it as like I was on this merry go, or it was like a misery go around, around and around on the misery round. And these exit signs flash up. And you either take them. Yes. Or you don't.

But you don't know when the next one's coming. Right. If the next one's coming. Oh my God, that's a very, very good visualization. And I kept missing those exit signs, being seeing them, but just missing them. And I just took one. And I stopped. And one day turned into, I didn't go to treatment.

I did go to meetings. I did go to a no meetings and at that point if somebody had said to me you need to stand in the corner upside down in a bucket of pigs will for 48 hours

to stay clean I'll be like yeah okay I'm doing it that's whatever it takes I was the same yeah when I was ready when you were ready I'd have done anything

but what's so weird if is why I was ready then and not earlier I don't know I just don't know but I do know if you just keep trying Keep trying Never give up

It does work Yeah Do you know what You wrote me a letter I don't know if you remember this I do remember writing your letter Yeah but I don't remember what it said You wrote me a letter

And I got it And this was after You know I'd said right Contact me when you're When you're willing to get clean Yeah But you wrote me a letter Oh my tits nearly hang out

Nice Were you enjoying that Yeah Well it's what I'm used to That's what we're all used to That That's what we're all used to That

I read the letter and I was like, she's clean. I knew from the letter. What did I say in the letter? You were humble. Oh, okay. That's so interesting, yeah, because I was so full of shit before. It was a completely different you. It was an old you.

Yeah. It was like reading a letter from my old friend. You could see, I was back. Totally. Yeah, that malevolent spirit had gone. Yeah, and I called you immediately. Yeah. And I was like, you're clean and you went, how do you know?

And I said, you're humble. And you were like, I am. And I was like, right, I'm coming. It was like, wild horses couldn't keep me away. I was like, get me to you immediately. Came to your flat. Like, I remember being at your flat. And us just being like straight back to normal again.

You were so different. Yeah. So different. It was incredible. And I was all in like we're here. Right back together again. Yeah. Like we'd never been a part.

Like we'd never been apart. So what happened then? Because you obviously had had no contact with the kids. No. Wrenshaw had given up on you. Wenshaw had given up on me. So how did you start to rebuild the trust with Wrenshaw? Primarily from staying clean.

Yeah. And like you said, you know when somebody's clean or out. You know. So he knew. And I was allowed to. come and say good night to the children and read them a story when I was three months clean

that would have been my dream standing outside the house on the street that had been my dream and just to say to preempt that for that three months clean I'd had to have urine tests by the doctor to show rential

that I was clean right and when I got to that three month stage I was allowed to come and read the children a story sometimes I'd stay for supper Wow Yeah

Sometimes he cooked me supper In my old home With the children upstairs Yeah like wow Sometimes After a while We'd end up in bed together And I

Wait Wait Yes What like having sex Having sex Sorry Wrenshaw He won't watch this He won't watch

No okay It's fine We can talk about it And it's fine I'll never know But did he ever make you any promises then? Never. In fact, I always thought once I had this dream that we'd get back together.

Because usually when people divorce, it's because, you know, there's been adultery or they've just fallen out of love with each other. But that wasn't the case with us. No, it wasn't. We still loved each other, but there was this huge other bloody great thing there. And now that thing had gone. we hoped. So the love was still there, but there was the trust needed to be damaged. It was damaged, exactly.

And then it slightly changed because then they were allowed after, I can't remember how many months, six or nine months, they were then allowed to stay with me. So he would come around and read them a story. Now, bear in mind, I hadn't been out for about three years. You know, my going out involved going to a meeting. And somebody who called me up and said, did I want to go to some kind of sprauncy event at the VNA? And I said, yes, terrified, terrified.

And I remember getting all dressed up. I didn't know, I hadn't dressed up for so long. I didn't know what's where. I didn't even know what I liked anymore. I was like, oh, God, I look ridiculous. And he came around to say goodnight and read the children's story to my flat. And I opened the door and I was all doled up. And he was like, bloody hell, where are you going?

I said, well, I'm going to this, you know, sponsored the event. And he said, as you know, he loves motorbikes. And he said, do you want me to take you on the bike because it'll be a nightmare of the traffic, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember thinking, oh God, because I remember he'd said to me before, it's not going to happen again. Oh, my God, huge part of the story I missed. The day before the Decree Absolute had come through.

Yes. I remember calling you saying, oh, my God, the absolutes come through. That's it. It's over. That's it. So, bear a voice. The divorce was done. Yesterday.

Yesterday. Today, that's why I went out. I thought, I cannot sit in my flat being miserable. I've got to try and start pulling a life back together that doesn't involve wrench for myself. So he comes around. Do you want to lift the VNA? Yes, okay.

And we walked in, and I just remember being met by this kind of, of sea of glamour and I just thought I can't I just cannot deal with this I'm not ready for this yet so I said I can't do it wrench I can't do it and he said let's go out for dinner I was like why would we do that and he said to celebrate the end of our marriage to celebrate the divorce and I was like oh I don't know if I can do that but I just wanted to be with him so I was like I feel a bit weird about it but okay And he went to this restaurant that we had a relationship with, but, you know, birthdays, anniversaries, we would go to this restaurant and we went there.

And I said, it was a Friday night, you'll never get a table. And he got a table. So we walked into the restaurant, sat down. I felt very sad, you know, because I wanted to be with this man. And here we were celebrating our divorce. And he said something I need to tell you. And I was like, oh my God, he's met someone else, you know, some like supermodel. You know, still those old messages, you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

I thought, oh God, here we go. I don't know if I can cope with this. And he said, do you want to try again? And I was like, what? What? And he said, do you want to try again? And I said, yes. Absolutely yes.

But I said also, do you think that we'll be able to? There's so much has happened. There's so much from water under the bridge. Can you forgive me? You know, can we forgive each other in some instances? And he was like, well, let's try. Yes, Red Shore. Oh, my God.

So that's what we did. How did that work? I moved back into the family home. Wow. How quickly? Oh, like by the weekend. You know, I booked on the way home, I put the removal van. It's like, not wasting any time here.

It might change his mind. Oh, my God. So put the removal van. I was in there, you know. The dinner was on the Friday. I was in there on the Saturday. I have never been more happy. Oh, God, nor have I.

I knew the work that you had to do. both of you to make it work. But I had no doubt in my mind that you would do it. I had doubt. Did you? No, not that there was love, but I thought was there just so much,

is he going to throw stuff at me when we're angry? He did a bit. He did a bit at the beginning. He did a bit at the beginning. I'm not surprised. Fair enough, you know. Like, I had to eat humble pie a lot. And you were, and can I just say also,

Well done because you really did. I did, yeah. And you never fought back. No. And you were, you know, that was a lot. It was a lot. Because you'd done so well. And there you were eating humble pie,

even though you were doing so well. Well, yeah. There was a lot to make up for. But you were aware of that. I was amazing. I was aware of that. And I knew that. And I knew that it was worth giving it a chance,

you know, that the relationship was going to be slightly different. and he was making the... I didn't have a voice yet in our back when we had that second chance. I still was trying to find my voice. I didn't feel I had it yet. I didn't feel I earned it yet. But I really wanted to have another baby.

And he was very anti-that at the beginning and said, you know, the children who were a bit bigger then, they've gone through so much. We're getting to the stage where they're... Now at school all day, we can have more of a life to what? For us, like, why don't, you know, do we really want to go back to babies? But for me, there was a space at the table. Yeah, and it was also, you'd be clean.

I'd be clean and I hadn't had that. And I wanted to do that. All the cake sales and the swimming gala's and the PTA plug in. I wanted to do that because I hadn't been able to do that before. and it was really important to me to do that. Anyway, I got pregnant. How did I manage that? And he was very happy about it.

And then we had Lucy, who's now 20, who healed so much. I felt she was such a gift that I didn't really deserve, but I was given. I was given this another chance. and amazing to be able to parent in a way that I wasn't before. It was, I was just so grateful for that. I felt so lucky.

And now, looking at the three of them, can't imagine life without Lucy. That's such a weird concept. That little rocket rocket, yeah. And then I remember you being like, I want to get remarried. Yeah, after you'd had Lucy. And I remember thinking, I really want them to get out. And like, I remember saying to Rent Shor, do you think you might ask her, he'd go, div, it's none of your business. It's none of your business.

I think, God damn it. I can't, you know, can't like. I know, but don't you, don't you remember, we went away for my, to New York? To New York. Yes. 40th. And one day he said to you, listen, I want to take Sarah, I think we went for three nights. I want to take Sarah out on my own tonight. And we were like, he's definitely going to ask me. He's definitely going to ask me. And I was like, oh my good, he's definitely going to ask me. I couldn't like, couldn't we? And we get to the restaurant. And I was like, okay, come on. And he said, I know you think I'm going to ask you to know, but I'm not. I'm going to ask you when I want to ask you, not when you and DeVille.

and what was on. I was like, oh, that's terribly disappointing. I was like, oh, and I remember saying to you, we were like, what? What the hell? I've got the other side of the world for this, and I'm not even going to bloody do it. I couldn't believe it.

And so I'd sort of given up on that. I think we both had. Yeah, we both had. And then it was Christmas. How many years ago was it? Well, if Lucy's 20 now, it must have been like 16. years ago, maybe 17 years ago.

It was Christmas and we were all on the bed, me Wrench and the three kids and they were opening their stockings, their Christmas stockings and Wrench had done me a stocking. And one of the last presents was

a wedding ring, that wedding ring. And he said, will you marry me? And I was like, I don't know why I'm crying. I know, because I was so happy. I know.

So a few months later, we had a very, very small wedding. The only friends of mine that were there were you and your husband and children. And Renshaw and his brothers and me and my brother and sister, and that was it. Because my parents weren't there, Linus walked me down the aisle and gave me away. God, it was brilliant. Little beechy red, the valveteen rabbit. and Lucy was bridesmaid. And it was magical.

It was perfect. It was really perfect. It was the most up. But what I remember is that, so how clean must I have been then? Like, I don't know, six, seven years clean or something around that. Like, you know, a while.

And we've been back together, obviously, for a while. But I remember getting to being absolutely fine, excited about the wedding and then getting to the door of the church where Linus is waiting for me and seeing him and just losing it.

Like I couldn't I just couldn't stop crying I don't know if you remember I just thought I'm not going to be able to get down the aisle and I'm not a big big cry like you. No. I like you

I can cry but I just and I do quite enjoy crying but I just I couldn't stop crying. No, it was like a big release. He was like all the things that had happened over the years and so much had happened.

Yes. It just felt overwhelming. It felt too much. Yes. And then getting to managing and sort of Linus hanging on and sort of looking at me like, are you all right, Mom. And then just sort of seeing wrench at the end of the aisle and thinking, oh God, there he is, you know.

And here we are. After everything. After everything, here we are. Actually, the beginning and end of everything. And that is the story, yeah. It is the most incredible love story. It is that you withstood all of that. Yeah.

And you are still so in love. Still so in love. But it's also, you know, you, Wrench and I have all known each other for so long. And we have all been through so much, you know, more recently, with you in your boobs in your brain. And there has been, it's just extraordinary to look back on all those years, nearly 40 years of love and friendship.

Can I just say something actually? Just publicly I'm going to acknowledge. Oh, God. I couldn't have got through last year without you. I was really lost. It was very frightening. You kept me grounded. I was really in danger of losing my mind.

And I couldn't have got through it without you. I'm so unbelievably grateful to you for that. Thank you. Well, I love you. I love you more. And the thing is that we both being through those things where we thought we were going to lose each other, you know, when you had that brain tumor,

I it seemed to me there was a real possibility that something terrible would happen and there is nothing like something like that

where things come into focus so clearly and you see what's important and all that past that we have had with each other just comes so and suddenly nothing else matters

and like going through everything with my dad and like you've just you are in the fabric of my life your children I said that in the forward your children are in my DNA if anything happened to you and Wrenshaw

I'm taking them all on yeah you are like it's the same we are family we are family we are family and sometimes chosen family and we've discussed this before but how chosen family can be so much

closer more important I mean definitely you know with my parents and so Sarah, yeah, I want to end on something. What have you got something back there? Yeah.

Oh my God, what is it? An Amazon token, no. I'm going to read you something. Oh, God. Okay. Are you ready? Yeah. Mum.

Oh, God. Oh, God. It's very difficult to know what to say to someone who's given us so much. I'm willing up just to. thinking about it. I know mum often worries that her trouble years have fucked us up, that what she did way back then had a negative impact on our future lives. But I'm sitting here, planning a wedding with the woman of my dreams,

trying to find the time in and around the job of my dreams. Beach is sitting in Paris, doing all the things we know he'd dreamed of doing. And Lucy is living all of our dreams, just having fun at uni without a care in the world. All I know of you is that you've given your life to us. Every day I can remember. You've made us feel safe and loved, and we've not questioned that ever for one second. You didn't fuck us up. You made our dreams come true. We all cried when we got it. Oh my God.

Linus is an amazing writer. Isn't he? Yeah. Such a gentle soul. Oh, that's so lovely. Thank you. That's for you. Oh, thank you so much.

Oh, dear. Thank you, Sarah. Oh, well, thank you for asking me. It's so funny because I thought, I thought, It's just going to be so weird because we're friends. Like we just, like, I want to chat about things that we can't talk about in front of the camera. I don't want to talk about me and you and what, but actually it's been incredible. It's been so moving.

And I think because, you know, you were there. It's not like I've, well, I've literally loved it so much. Have you? So funny. With round of applause, everybody, please. Well, thank you, everyone. So just in case you missed this episode. here. If you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.