Begin Again with Davina McCall - Why Do So Many People Have Anxiety? How to Finally Feel Better.

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

In this episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall is joined by renowned psychotherapist and bestselling author Owen O’Kane to unravel one of the most pressing mental health issues of our time: anxiety. Drawing from decades of clinical experience—and his own personal journey—Owen breaks down why anxiety has become so deeply embedded in modern life. He explains how our fast-paced world, past traumas, and inner narratives keep us trapped in cycles of stress and fear. But this conversation isn’t just about understanding anxiety—it’s about learning how to break free from it. With warmth, clarity, and powerful insights from his new book Addicted to Anxiety, Owen shares practical tools that can help you feel calmer, more in control, and truly at peace. Eye-opening, compassionate, and packed with real-life solutions, this episode is a lifeline for anyone who’s ever felt overwhelmed. 📢 Drop a comment: What’s your biggest takeaway? Has your life been impacted by Anxiety?  📖 Owen's Book 'Addicted To Anxiety': https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/462479/addicted-to-anxiety-by-okane-owen/9780241728321 Follow me here: www.instagram.com/beginagain https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod  Owens Book Available here:  (00:00) Intro (01:21) Davina’s Introduction (01:53) Why We Need to Understand Anxiety (06:59) How My Anxiety Experience Inspired Me to Help Others (11:50) Can You Be Addicted to Anxiety? (23:07) Adobe Ad (24:11) Ancient & Brave Ad (25:46) Breaking the Stigma Around Anxiety and Depression (31:30) How to Stay Authentic and Check In With Yourself (41:07) Reclaiming Your Energy: Taking Control and Letting Go (50:20) Finding Pride in Progress and Personal Growth (57:07) A Heartfelt Thanks to Owen (57:56) Davina's Final Thoughts Sponsored by: Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The thing about you as a therapist is, I feel like you always just know what we need. Can you talk us through what kind of mess society is in terms of anxiety levels? There is an addictive component to anxiety because it comes with a promise of safety. I think there's a worry where they think, who am I without anxiety? These are the behaviours that are getting in the way of your life. There's a lot of false promises out there. I think actually no one's coming to save you. But if somebody is still in.

an addiction to anxiety, what do they do? I think the first thing is... I'd had a general anxiety on my life. I was an anxious parent. My hands were so tightly wrapped around the steering wheel of life. How do you feel about the anxiety now? Oh, God. Sorry.

There's so much not knowing in our lives. I think a lot of people are very frightened. So you have to. Wow. This is about you taking responsibility for your life and making the decision that you're not going to abandon the little person within you that's frightened. This is exactly what you.

what I could have done with when I was anxious. You've just literally nailed it. I'm so excited today to be talking to Owen O'N. I Kane because weirdly we met online because I loved lots of his posts and then, you know, I was recommending his books to everybody and we became friends online and we've always liked each other's posts. I've even given him a quote for the front of his new book. I respect him so much. So I'm so excited because we've never actually met. I would love it. if you could subscribe and give it a little like, please.

I just quickly want to say congratulations on publication day. Yes. Today. Today. I've had this for a bit. It's hilariously. I've turned over. I didn't have a highlight pan.

See, that terrifies me because I am looking at all of the bookmark. And you're thinking, why have I turned that over? I like, do you know, one of the proper journalists? Well, no, the thing for me is these are turned over. for personal use, not that I want to talk to you about. These are turned over for pages. They're not your questions. No, these are turned over for me.

Oh, I'm going to go back and I'm going to read that again. Okay, there's lots of things I'd like to say about this book. There's a lot, isn't it? First of all, the type, the font size, thank you. It's good, isn't it? Yes. Yeah, I mean, they did a brilliant job. They did a really brilliant job.

That was one goal. of what the font size I'm so grateful it's so easy to read they were all of it actually the kind of design and the cover and stuff I think they had a really good flavour of me the publisher and they knew what the book was about the brief was clear

and I said I don't want this to be airy fairy I don't want it to be fluffy I don't want it to be typical self-help I just want this to be really clear cut and they said okay leave it with us and they come back Can I just sit straight away? Oh my God, that's it. And so because the other thing that I love is I love a list.

Oh, there's plenty in there, isn't there? There's so much to get at. Yeah. And a list is easy to look at. You think, okay, the few pages beforehand are going to be explaining something. And then at the end, there's like a sum up. A bit of a summary. Yes.

But often that's what you have to do with people in therapy. Often, like, you might have the bigger issues of the big conceptual stuff. and you're always kind of covering the content but then you're always going back and you're like triple checking okay did you get that do you want me to just go over that again I just want to be sure that you're with me in this

so I'm always kind of that's how I work I'm always kind of recap and making sure that I'm not moving too quickly and someone's alongside me rather than jumping ahead so when I sat down to write that book I really thought about okay here was the premise so I thought to myself what was

you know if I were writing a book about anxiety what would I want it to be And the immediate thought was I would want it to be the book that I could have done with in my 20s. So that was my starting point for the book and I thought there's a lot of stuff out there that is quite generic

or it's quite wooly or it's kind of the false promises really heal your anxiety in the day and all of this stuff. It's just like well that's not going to happen. And in my early 20s I wouldn't even have called it anxiety. I would have just called it's feeling a bit off. And I remember not being able to make head

of it. It didn't make sense to me. I didn't really quite know what to do with it. And I remember thinking, okay, I want to write a book where this is really clear. This is what's going on. This is why it might be going on. So that it didn't matter what your background is, you would open it and you would get from beginning to you and think, okay, that's really clear cut. It's not academic. It's not. And you know, and I know the academics have slag me off and say, oh, you didn't give enough theory or you didn't put all of that stuff. But it was never meant to be that. So I've laid it out deliberately where it's not even about, I guess I'm in the mindset of the reader who may be at home feeling stuck or feeling like I can't go out the door or I can't go to work or I'm just feeling

horrible. So I kind of wrote the boot thinking, okay, I wanted to be for that person where they can go to you and it will be clear and they can bookmark it. I mean, hilarious. Like I've literally turned over a thousand pages. And I love the fact that before we were going to talk, you're like, oh my God, like you've turned over so many pages. I was like, don't worry, it's not questions. It's for me. It's so I can go back and find the bits that were pertinent for me. That's amazing though, because, you know, that means everything.

Because when you write a book and people want to go back or it's made them stop or it's made them think, I mean, that's why we do. That's why we do it ultimately, isn't it? I mean, you want to have impact and you want to reach people. So if it's done that, then I've done my job. Well, it's often something where I'll read something you've said and I'll think, I must remember that, but I know what I'm like. And I'll carry on reading and I'll forget.

And it won't just be what you've said. It'll be the way in which you've said it, the order of your words. And I think, wow, that is the best way I've heard that described ever. So I think I want to go back and remember that. So I turn over the page so it ends up looking absolutely crazy. But anyway, the other thing that I find so different about you as a therapist is you are. are so happy to talk about your own experiences. I think you have to.

I mean, I think it's one thing being a therapist and then it's another thing being a therapist and using platforms like podcasts, books, talks, TV, radio, all that sort of stuff. And I think, you know, we're often asking people to share their lives or a story and all of that stuff. And I think you can't really, personally, I can't show up pretending I'm an expert.

Well, I am an expert in what I do. I've trained for years. But I don't want to just show up as the expert or the guru. I kind of think you have to show up with your humanity because I have a belief that whoever you are as a therapist, if you don't build a relationship with somebody, you're screwed. It doesn't matter what they learn. It doesn't matter what technique you teach them.

The person you're working with needs to know they're in front of another human being who gets struggle. And I think, well, my life was very imperfect. I did have struggle. So kind of unapologetically, I thought, why would I push that down or hide that? Because it almost kind of, it's kind of hypocritical not to. And I thought, I'm not really ashamed.

I mean, I spent a lot of time feeling shame when I was younger. Like, massive shame. This is what I love about this book because anxiety is bathed in shame, isn't it? Of course it is. You know, I thought, well, if I'm going to do this work and I'm going to be brave enough to put it out there, then I'm not going to operate from shame. I'm going to operate from openness, honesty, integrity. And I've had people say, oh, is that a bit much?

Do you want people to know that? People are, all of that stuff. People level that at me all the time. Is it too much? I'm like, what's too much? Yeah. I mean, it's got to be a personal thing that, hasn't it? I'm okay with it.

But you might not be okay with telling your thing, but it's okay with me. I think in therapy, it's always about the client. So if you and I were in therapy together, it will be, you know, it's about you. If every now and then I think I'm going to share this because I think it's important and it may create a moment of connection or normalize something, I'll do it. So therapeutically it's always, always, always about the clan. But I think when it's kind of more generic.

Generic, yeah. And I think I've got no problem, particularly in the book. I mean, can you imagine me trying to do this book? Oh no. Without talking about the fact that I grew up anxious, my entire early years were anxiety filled. And I didn't have language to describe it. And then I worked out what it was and then I had to navigate my way through it. And then as I got older and I learned a lot more about anxiety,

then I was able to add that on top and think, God, not only do I know what it's like, but I now understand the theory. But I was kind of putting it all together. So, yeah. And I think you have had, I mean, this book in itself, and I'm going to talk about this in a minute, but this idea of an addiction to anxiety is quite a new concept. But I think it's only because you,

you've gone through it, that you would be able to grasp that. I think it's very, I've experienced anxiety for the first time ever, about like two months ago, six weeks ago. And it was, that's not true, actually. I'm lying. I was an anxious parent, I think, looking back now, having read this book. And also, I was a control freak, and control is anxiety. It's the opposite of anxiety.

my hands were so tightly wrapped around the steering wheel of life. Yeah. I was so scared and I've been forced to let go. Yeah. And I have let go. Wow. And I feel fucking great. Wow.

Yeah. So this has literally been a revelation to me. Oh, good. So thank you. No. And I'm actually really, really interesting. I'll tell you a funny story, actually. I can't say too much about it,

but someone told me not to do this. Oh, because you know, somebody told me to not talk about the menopause. There you go. It's exactly the same thing. Touch me. I mean, touch me. I was told, you know. Because I, that's very interesting.

What? Because of the shame side of the anxiety? There was just a bit, you know, there was a conversation about I don't think you should do that. And I don't think it'll do well. And I don't think anyone will be interested in buying that. Can I just quickly say something? Because it's day of publication and I'm going to blow your trumpet. Not a euphemism.

because your book came out today and it's gone straight in at number two and you've only done one interview. You did an interview this morning. After that interview, you went in at number two. High five. And I think that is in part. Because they told you not to do it.

And I think actually, when somebody tells me not to do something, it wasn't like in a defiant way. I think when I feel I'm right about something, I've got, I'm quite good at listening. If something intuitively feels right to me. Oh, and you talk about energy in this book. I want to talk to you about that a little bit later because you say, look, I'm not going to talk about it too much

because that's not what this book is about. But knowing inside you, your intuition, it's always right. Yeah. And it was right. And I, you know, it's really I've got much better at listening to how it was kind of like you can say no. And that's absolutely fair. And you're entitled to say no, but I'm not going to listen. I think that's what I first fell in love with you for.

Yeah. Because I could see that in you. Yeah. And also that you, you always know, I feel like you always just know what we need. I mean, anxiety, obviously, you know, it's a word that's been banging around for ages, but you talk in this book a little bit about we are in the age of anxiety. I mean, this generation anxious. Can you talk us through kind of what society, what kind of mess society is in terms of anxiety levels?

I mean, where do you even start? I mean, I think it's across the board. I don't think it's like particularly young people or teenagers or moms. I think, you know, you look at every subset of the population and you find anxious people. I think we're frightened. I think a lot of people are very frightened in general. And I think there's a number of things, you know, I think the world is a scary place and there's a lot of difficult things happening. But what I think is interesting, I don't think it's any.

You know, if you think about the world at war in the 30s and 40s and how terrifying that must have been, but has social media meant that the world, because it's just as dangerous a place as it was back then, actually it's probably safer than it was back then, but we feel it's more dangerous. Why is that? I think because we've evolved a little bit more.

I think we've evolved in our language, our understand and our ability to reflect, the ability to have conversations. So now I think they're much more. Like back in the day, like even back in my day, you just didn't talk about depression or anxiety or mood or even addictions. Things just weren't talked about. So things were buried and put onto the carpet and there was very much a mentality of just kind of get on with it and plow through. Whereas I think actually now that really has started to evolve.

So of course, the more aware people become, you know, they then suddenly start to think, oh God it doesn't feel quite right. So things then do feel a bit more threatening And not only the external world But I think people are starting to become more aware of their internal workings Now there's a double ed sword here I think there's a danger that people over pathologize themselves Because I think you know when I hear people say Oh, I'm an anxiety suffer and I say no you're not

You experience anxiety So I'm not interested in Plowing people with diagnostic labels Or I don't believe in the word disorders I don't think anyone is disordered I think we need to remove that anxiety disorders, depressive disorders. I think human beings fluctuate. Sometimes their mood can drop.

Sometimes their anxiety can increase and sometimes we're in between. And other things can happen around that. But I think it's part of the human condition to fluctuate. And I think we've got to get much better at saying, okay, rather than see yourself as an anxiety sufferer or I'm anxious, no, no, no, you experience anxiety. And you're experiencing a very healthy normal human mechanism, but sometimes that part of you,

the skirt part of you, works way harder than it needs to. And I think it's a much more helpful way to think about anxiety. And I do believe, you know, and look, I know the addiction community, some people are going to, you know, have a go and say, oh, it's not an addiction.

I disagree. Well, as a former addict, I can give you a little bit of an insight into that. I disagree with that. I think that addiction would be very easy to get addicted to. When you were talking about that in here, I was like, no, no, I must talk to you about that and say.

Because addiction has its benefits. Of course it does. Of course it does. And I mean, anxiety has its benefits. That's what I was trying to say. So anxiety is helpful. Yeah. For me, low-level anxiety, cortisol,

that I've kind of had all my life with my mum being an alcoholic, ready for anything. Oh, my God, are you going to streak? Are you going to get drunk? Are you going to arrest someone? My mum used to citizens arrest. people all the time. Like, it was like,

all the time. I was ready for anything. Bring that to work. Amazing. I'm so alert and on it and full of energy and like, people pleaser. Yeah. Want to do the right thing.

I was like, I like this feeling. So it's that weird high that you can get from anxiety. Yeah. And it's a lot. You talk about that. Yeah. And you've described that brilliantly there because every addict I've ever met or worked with in my entire career.

will have a love, hate relationship with their addiction. So there'll be part of it is like, oh, fucking hell. I know I shouldn't be doing this and I don't want to do it, but I'm going to still do it. And you'll find exactly the same thing with anxiety because they won't like the feelings that come with anxiety, but then when you try and take it away from them in therapy, they will resist you, they will fight you,

they will fucking bring you down because they don't want to let go of it. And there's, I don't know if you remember from the book, but there's this brilliant moment. And this book was born quite a few years ago before I even started to read it. So I was running a group in the NHS and this was for like 16 people, chronic anxiety, they'd been everywhere, all sorts of treatment. The psychiatrist I was working with at the time knew I had an interest in trauma and anxiety. And he said, why didn't you set up a group? These are people that some services have given up one. They've been everywhere. Why don't you set up a

group and see what you can do with them? So he kind of gave me a free rein to work with them. And I said, okay, let's do it. So anyway, I set up this. group and about eight weeks into the treatment, I noticed that they were all starting to improve every one of them. Things were later in the room. There's a lot more banter. They were coming in, they were sharing stories. You could see there was a real sense of freedom starting to move into their lives. So me being the, you know, responsible therapist at the time, I thought, okay, I'm going to feed back to them that I think, you know, I really noticed a good improvement. So I say to him, Look, you know, eight weeks into the program,

brilliant to see everyone looks and feels and sounds a lot later than they were. And the minute I said it, it was like, fucking hell. Like, you wouldn't have heard a pin drop. It was just like deadly silence. And I thought, I said, what's the silence about? And this one guy who was a recovering addict, brilliant guy, and I remember him saying, fucking hell

he said he said I thought giving up coke was hard he said giving this up's hard as well and then they all laughed

he said this is as you know this is as addictive as coke and then when we sort of take forward a bit more they were all able to acknowledge that the thought

the moment I named recovery meant that they were moving moving away from the anxiety and that became frightening yes so the letting go of

anxiety became a real concern and they all got what he said but not only did they get it i got it and i remember thinking there is an addictive component to anxiety because it comes with a promise of safety yes it's going to protect you so even though it might feel uncomfortable in the body and the mind the emotional states the behaviors actually if the alluring promise in the background is i'm going to make sure that nothing happens to you i'm going to make sure that you don't get rejected i'm going to make sure that you don't feel, people really struggle to let that go. I also think there's a worry with people where they think, who am I without anxiety? That has been a core part of my personality.

Can I tell you something brilliant? This literally happened a few weeks ago. So I'm working with someone at the moment, chronic anxiety for a long time, again, starting to improve, doing really good. And this person came into therapy recently. She just said that, and I said her, I think she'd, I'm, doing really good. I said, amazing. So anyway, we're just kind of catching up. And then she said, I had this really weird moment the other day that I'm a bit concerned about. I said, what happened?

And she said, I woke up. And she said, for the first time in about four years, I didn't have a knot to my stomach. And I said, wow. I said, that's a big moment. She said, yeah, it was for about five seconds. And I said, and then what happened? And then she said, then I started to worry about about where the knot had gone. And what would happen if I, what happens without this knot? Yes. How will I manage? And what if I miss something or what if I, I'm not as on guard?

And I just kind of like, the examples can come from everywhere, but it's just another example of the attachment and the dependence. And, you know, this is the thing about this book. Look, I am under no illusions. You know, I think it's a clear book to read, but there are moments when it's uncomfortable. because it's like no one's coming to save you. There is no chant to, you know,

you're not going to manifest your way out of anxiety. There is no kind of, you know, one day mantra and suddenly it's all gone. This is about you taking responsibility for your life. But more importantly, it's also about you going to a part of you, the scared part of you, and making the decision that you're not going to abandon that part of you anymore. And that's bloody hard.

Because most people do abandon parts of self. and I think a lot of people I've never in my entire career met an anxious person who has come to me they sit down and they talk about all the symptoms and I say to them

how do you feel about the anxiety I've never once in my career heard anyone say that they feel aligned or positive or any affinity with their anxiety it's the opposite I think it's toxic

I hate it I don't want this to be happening so they have a really negative almost hate-based relationship with the part of them and that in itself has said but this is a scared part of you it's a little person little boy little girl

you know the little person within you that's frightened and every single day you abandon that part of self by pushing it down you ever thought that the word anxiety has been demonised in some way like if you were to call it worry

worry sounds more compassionate or softer or kind of because we were talking about shame earlier that you were told not to write this book that in some way you're revealing something or you shouldn't be or shouldn't be talking about it too much, that anxiety is still that emotional so bathed in shame that we're embarrassed to say. I think people know what it means. I think there's a double ed sort of but I think some people are using it out of context. I hear people describe an anxiety and you think actually that's not anxiety. It's not clinical anxiety. Then at the other

said at the corner, you do have people who don't want to acknowledge, particularly with men. Right. This real thing about, you know, to acknowledge, being anxious, you know, females are generally better. I think to be fair, right across the board with the mental

health conversation, females are much better at can you acknowledge in some of their own vulnerabilities and struggles and actually bringing it to the table and say, and I could do with a bit of help and support. Men feel dreadfully here. Starting something new can be a bit terrifying, can't it?

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And I think there's a big conversation on why that happens, but I think men just generally feel to acknowledge or to admit any symptoms like this whatsoever means that I'm weak and I can't acknowledge weakness and I can't be, I can't in any way be demasculized I can't admit this

so they bury it and it becomes a shame-driven narrative so it's a complicated one so I think it's a word that I mean the reason I decided to go with the word anxiety in the title was it's a word that everyone gets and understands

well I think I mean that is the word that we would all associate with it I just wondered if it was that word that people associate such negative things to. Well, here's the thing. When I worked in the NHS, I was setting up these group programs I talked about, and we were setting up these 12-week programs at one point. And one of them, at the beginning we called the first group, managing your depression and the other group we called managing your anxiety,

or chronic anxiety or something like that. And this was a new big thing that we were doing, and we got no sign up. People wouldn't register for the groups. We weren't getting anywhere. We're like, God, this is quite worrying. People are not coming forward. We're offering these treatments.

There are evidence-based treatments. They weren't coming forward. And I remember in a meeting one day saying, I wonder if we change the names of the groups. Should we try it? It's worth a goal because people are not coming forward. So the anxiety group we changed to manage your worry. And the depression group we changed to balance your mood.

And the group spooked out in no time. Wow. Because then it was less. Oh, that's okay. I wouldn't mind improving my mood or balancing my mood out. It's not seen as weak. It just was like, oh, this is everyday stuff. Everyone knows that everyone worries.

Okay, let's focus on that. And people know that sometimes your mood can fluctuate a bit. That doesn't feel as clinical. It doesn't feel like it's as judgmental or shaming in any way, shape or form. Oh, God. So it's kind of almost like a collusion of like, so we were almost colluding with them to get people to come for treatment. Whereas I thought when I'd done the book And I said, no, we're at a point now where people know what anxiety means

And people can pick up a book and they can hide the cover Well, I mean, I think addicted to anxiety I'd like to think I'm on the cover there Would they force for good little endorsement? Well, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure. We've had, I mean, the endorsement have been incredible across the board.

I'm not surprised actually for you. I'm really pleased about that. But I think, I mean, I've got lists of people that I'm sending this to because, well, I think it's a very, very easy to access and easy to use and easy to understand book, which is what I love about it. But we've talked a bit about how you got here and how the book started.

But can we just touch on like this addiction aspect of it? and obviously I know that when well I've only had this experience once of I know that I grew up as an anxious parent and I know that I was running on cortisol I don't know what you would call that high alert all the time like hypervigilence which I feel has disappeared

since my operation which is weird it might come back but for me it's actually made me feel like like you can breathe yeah it's so odd are you enjoying it I am learning to cope with it because

I often feel like where's that I was always like that I'm it's like being wired isn't it like literally hard wired I'm trying to explain that someone's very difficult yeah I'm trying to reprogram my whole life around not

but one incredible thing though because you could reframe it in a way and think actually there may be moments where this state is incredibly useful for you. Yeah. And actually within that, because I think often we associate success, achievement, getting stuff done. I think we often associate

that with being wired. Well, that's... And ready for action. We're actually, it could be that there's real power in this state. I mean, obviously you're a therapist. And you're brilliant and I know, but you've just literally nailed it. For me, I feel like

I've done great. so far living with this thing but now you're talking about your subconscious I keep hearing things that my subconscious is telling me

or guiding me or I couldn't hear it before but you've kind of turned the volume down and you've created space so it's allowing stuff to come up but how if somebody is still in an addiction, what do they do? I mean, I think that in the context to this book, which is about anxiety, which I do believe is a massive, massive issue,

as I've said earlier, I mean, I think the first thing is like any addiction, it's the acknowledgement that, okay, this is problematic. You know, I can have a rule of them. It's really hard, but if it's hard for me, I mean, Christ, and sometimes even if I'm been like brutally honest for myself, I can still get moments where anxiety will move in like a tidal weave, sometimes unexpectedly. Now here's an example. I mean, this is hilarious.

I mean, my friend, like one of my friends was really taking the piss yesterday, in fact, about this. So I'm involved in this massive project at the minute, which I can't really say too much about, but, you know, it'll be announced soon. Wait, is it exciting? It's really exciting. For you? Yeah. For us? Yeah.

The public as well. Yeah. Oh, I'm great. It's really exciting. You can't talk about it. It's TV stuff and it's big, but I can't really say much. But anyway, it was big for me and I had really pushed myself out in my comfort zone. And the book clashed with this thing at the same time.

So basically, I was doing clinical work and loads of other stuff and I had this big project that I've been working on and then book release coming. You're doing all the press interviews and on. Yes. So I was really aware of my own threat mechanisms going through the roof. Just almost in the background, they were just kind of like, oh my God, exposure, exposure, exposure.

Now, for somebody who's primarily hardwired to stay off radar, little gay kid, don't want a good spotter, don't want to get seen, play it down, don't let anyone notice who you are. Here I am as a middle-aged man now in this situation thinking, what the actual fuck?

How have I ended up in this? It's almost like, talk about life playing tricks and, you know, call it whatever you want, but the universe ironically, place in your position if you think, I would never have willingly, genuinely, have chosen where I am. Even though it's brilliant

and it's a real privilege and I love what I'm doing. It's Kenny almost like, it's almost like I've been, you know, it's almost like I've gone the other direction. It's probably the stuff I probably could have been doing when I was a young kid.

If I wasn't living in an environment of fear, I probably would have been way more creative. I play piano and stuff. But if you hadn't been in the environment of fear, then I wouldn't do my job. You wouldn't be here now. And I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. So it all just, it's weird.

how it all evolves. So none of it's a mistake. I really do believe that wholeheartedly. Nothing that we experience is a mistake. Nothing. That doesn't mean that it feels good or that it's been a comfortable period, but I do believe that we can all salvage stuff along the way.

And I think if we get victimized and we believe this is wrong, it's not fair, it shouldn't be happening, that shouldn't have happened. Then we do then kind of go into these lower energy states. Whereas actually we think, okay, what if this is part of my growth what if this is part of greatness what if this is something that evolves

and I can transcend then you're working with it in a very very different way and I think I learned that without even having that language I think I learned that very early on that I found a way through adversity so the other day all of this was kicking off

and suddenly I had a really bad day I think it was about a week ago and I thought I feel really anxious and I thought the irony I'm feeling really anxious and I'm fucking bringing out an anxiety book next week and then I noticed my imposter moving in

and my critic and all of these mechanisms that we all have thinking, oh my God and my friend was like properly taking the piss about this. I love friends like that by the way. She said, do you know what you need to do? And I said, why don't you read your own book? Do you know what I did? I did.

I read it because I thought they're my words and they're words that I want to impart and I believe in every syllable in the book. And I did, I reread the book. And I read it really quickly. And I thought, which bits spoke to you particularly? The fact that there was very totally, totally, totally understandable that in a period where things were elevated and there was a lot going on, that my natural threat mechanisms would raise up because these protector parts of me will come out. And that's exactly what should happen.

So actually, there's nothing abnormal about this state at the moment. And it was just that moment of clarity of thinking, of course. It also is like give yourself a hug for taking care of yourself. It's just like, well done you. You're looking after yourself. You've got your best interest at heart. And if I were working with a client and they had a big project on, they had a book coming out and they were just a bit off, you know,

and they were feeling about anxious. And I'd say, well, I get it. It's a big deal. You're out there and you're speaking to a lot of people in interviews and back to, you know what it's like. You're on the go. Of course you're going to be a bit stressed and a bit more anxious than normal. That's a totally, totally normal reaction. but my own kind of perfectionist

and my own critic come out which was fascinating when you watch that part of you coming out thinking no no no you shouldn't be experiencing that but you know you learn to get to know all of these parts of yourself

but it's funny like they will all sometimes come up and you kind of learn but this is with the whole power I think in when you get to know who you are and how you operate the real power is and this is why I think it's great when you were saying

about slow on down and you know noticing that you don't need to feel as wired or vigilant anymore. When we step out of that, then you create space to almost begin to watch yourself. So you become the observer rather than get entrenched and all of this here.

And you can start keeping an eye on how you're operating in the world and kind of thinking, all right, I need to bring this down a few notches. Do you think that's partially getting older? I mean, I think it depends. Sometimes I meet younger people. You've got a lot of insight. I think it just depends on what life teaches you, at any given time.

I mean, I don't know about you, but I sometimes, you know, you think you're together, don't you? Like at all stages of your life, you think, I've got it worked out now.

I've got the mortgage and the dog and the partner in the car and all of that. And then you sort of look back and you think, I didn't really know, I didn't really know anything back then.

At the time it feels like you've got it all worked out. And I kind of feel like I almost can look back every five years and think, God, I really thought I was quite sort of and stuff in. I'll tell you the one thing, and I don't like using the word spiritual,

but I mean, I do think I kind of worked against spirituality for a long time. It started off very Irish, very Catholic, good boy, altar boy, went into a monastery. I mean, I went the whole nine yards with it. And then I thought, I'm not going that route. And then just kind of reclaim more of my humanity, I guess, for then my adult life. And I've arrived at this really, really funny point now where it's kind of almost feels like I've moved into you kind of more. Actually, there's sometimes real value in that.

There's real value in stillness and quiet and... I wonder whether that's an age thing too, because so many of my friends from sort of, I would say, 40s, mid-40s onwards, everything slightly changes. We are more in tune with ourselves. We listen.

I loved you talking to yourself. You know, you know the answer. to all the big questions. That's such a spiritual concept. Yeah. I think it's about learning to, it's really about learning to listen. Like properly listen

and start trusting yourself a lot more. Yeah. And that very often I think does mean that you go off track and that you upset people and that you piss them off. Because I think people get used to, if you're a people pleaser

and I think we probably both are at various levels or have been at various points in our life. And we do what we do. And, you know, your career is very different to mind. But we're with people all of the time. Yeah, but we're interacting the whole time. And, you know, we like to talk to people and we're interacting the whole time.

But I often think that people then develop expectations. People are happy with you, I think, when you're, when you're fulfilling their needs. Yes. And you're playing your old traditional role. But then the minute you stop doing that, because you think, actually, that isn't right for me anymore. And it was never right. you sort of then

you can see who he isn't able to cope with that or they don't adjust very well to it and I think then I think the older we get and the more we evolve as people in life if we start to lose people or they start to drop off or relationship changes

I don't see that as unhealthy no I think it has to I mean I feel like we everybody changes a little bit as life goes on because of life experiences that we have and I think I like to think that I've been myself a lot of the time.

But I have had this kind of urge as well this year, the end of last year this year, of kind of I want to be me, like authentically me. And that might not be like exactly who I was last year. And the other, the interesting thing about that is what you just said. about and I might upset people sometimes and I won't I would never

upset somebody on purpose I would never kind of go out of my way to upset somebody but if I don't want to do something I can just say no it's like I've never heard that

and there is that great expression you know every time you do like every time you just go along with things for the sake of are you saying yes when you want to say no and you're rocking on I mean, I used to meet people for dinner that I genuinely didn't even want to see, but I didn't want to upset them or let them down and stuff. But you have to think that when you do that, yeah, but you end up abandoning yourself.

Yes, yes. You know, and that is the bottom line. Yes. When you do that door. So I think you get to that point, you think I'm not really prepared to do that anymore because I did a fair bit of that when I was younger. And I think the book talks about that a lot as well. It does, yeah.

You know, just, you know, you don't abandon self. You know, that, I think that has to be key for everyone. because that's the one relationship that we are stuck with. And one other thing that you touch on, which I really love in the book, which we mentioned very quickly earlier was energy. And I know that in the book you go, I'm not going to talk about this too much here

because this book isn't about energy. But I feel like that's a real tangible thing I can feel at the moment. Can you just talk me through what you mean by energy? Look, I mean, we're all energetic beings. Like, I don't want to get too. Well, there's science behind that. There's science behind it. But you even know sometimes, you know when you meet somebody, I don't know if you get

there something, but sometimes you meet somebody and you just like within a millie second you pick up on their energy. Totally. You're there with them and you're, you can't even, you may not even be able to put words on it, but you just get an energy about them. You get a sense of them and you know where they're operating from. And sometimes that can feel really inviting and warm and safe. And you can instantly think, oh God, I really like being around this person.

and then you can meet somebody and you can feel the opposite because our energy is operating at a very, very different level. So we're intuitively picking up in that all of the time with each other. And I think when it comes to anxiety, I mean, energy states and even emotional states,

they need a right of passage so there has to be a beginning, middle and end. Yes. So it's a natural flow state for all of us, you know, whether it's emotional states or energy states, and that natural flow is that we literally have to get out of our own way.

Yes. To allow these states. to allow it. But come back to that whole thing about control is most of us do the opposite. And what we do is we jump in and we try and control. We try and control the emotional states and we try and control the energy states, either to be the version of us that we think is going to be most accepted or to please people or to do what we think is the right thing.

So what we end up doing the whole time is we just end up interfering with natural energy states. Yes. Because we're literally getting in the way. I'm one of the big things as a therapist. Like the biggest part of my job is, I would say, if I were to simplify being a therapist, what you're doing with most people is thinking, you fucking need to get out of the way.

Yes. I need you to get out of the way. And the way you're thinking, and the way you're dealing with the emotions, the behaviors that are getting in the way of your life. So it sounds a weirdest thing in the world, but you're taking the individual out of the way so that they can carry the obstructions.

To me at all. Yeah, that's what I'm working with someone. And like I, every person that comes into a room, like I would say, I haven't measured this, but I'm confident it's about 99%. Every client I work with will come in and they will sit down in front of me and they will say it's all shit and feeling awful. And the usual stuff, it'd be life. And they will give me concrete, valid reasons why it is their childhood, their background, their job, their money, blah, blah, their career. And they will talk about all this stuff.

I've never ever in my career have someone sit down in front of me at the beginning and say, I'm in a really shit place because of how I'm managing my life. Never. So you never really get that ownership or responsibility. So most people project everything outwards. And of course you can't do anything about what's out there. You can't. The only thing you can do something is the internal stuff is in you.

I mean, there's a brilliant expression the way it is in. I haven't heard that. I love that. And I do. And I think it's a brilliant. brilliant. It's a brilliant way of thinking about it all because we're all doing it. We're trying to control, you know, anxiety, you know, anxiety by definition is an intolerance of uncertainty. So, you know, if you think of it broadly, we're all struggling with the fact that we don't know.

There are things that we don't know. You've been through a massive life event where there was a period of not knowing. Your life was turned upside down. So you've just come out of a period and still working through a period, I'm sure. I was like, oh my God, there's so much not knowing in our lives. And most people find that really, really hard to tolerate. So there's a real clue for me in the word, the intolerance is a big thing. So the more tolerant we can become then I think the more, not only the calmer and the more steadier do we feel, but I think these energy states then align much more. Or it's like, okay, can I just be okay with not knowing? The other, yesterday, for example, I knew the book was coming out today and you're feeling that pre-anxed, jittery. And I kind of said,

can I be okay with not knowing where this is going to go? And I was okay. Can I just hand over? I don't know. I have no control. There is no predictability. Just can I let this go and be okay with the fact the work's done? I've shown up.

I'll continue to show up. But outside of that, I need to get out of the way. Yeah. You know, literally this has got nothing to do with me now. I need to just do the bits that I need to do. But I need to get out of the way. So, you know, that's a great place to be. I think when you get out of your own way.

I've never thought of it like that. I've got a really good visual in my head now. Of that just step. Of the way. Like the way is a road for me. Yeah. And I'm big and I'm in the middle of it. And I've got to kind of stand to one side.

It's a really interesting. It's hard, isn't it? Because most people don't want to acknowledge it. Because, you know, if you are willing to acknowledge that, then you're left with a choice. If I'm in, if I'm the one. that's creating a lot of the challenges and creating a lot of the obstruction, that also means that I have to do something about this.

Yes. And also, if I don't, I'm the only one I can blame. Yeah. It's a double ed sword in some ways, but I mean, but then the freedom. But I was just going to say, the freedom that comes with that is ridiculous.

Absolutely. It's life changing. Because then you can't stand back and think, okay, this is thought, you know. And I guess really, just thinking as you're saying that, actually, I guess really, even though I wouldn't have put it in these words at the time.

I guess really that's what I was learning, I think in my palliative care days. I was learning that these people were adjusting and coping and managing because they were getting out of the way. They were getting out of their own way. I'm not I hadn't formulated that before just in my head to them

thinking that's exactly what was that was I guess the information and the lessons I was getting back then. And that's why they were able to just cope, manage and find peace. Wow. You know.

And I wouldn't have thought about it like that. But now as I'm speaking it out loud, I'm thinking, shit, that's exactly. That's what happens. So things can be a lot simpler, I think. And I, you know, this is a whole thing. This is what I love about this book. It's a great hope, isn't it?

I mean, I think it's practical. It's helpful. It's got big font. I'm still loving you for that. But it's, it is a pick it up, put it down. It's a turn over the page. get a highlighter. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people have said that, actually.

And I think because people who struggle with anxiety, sometimes it can, in this book, I love it when you talk about a relapse with an addiction. You know, you can have a relapse, but it's how do you get through the relapse? You can get through a relapse fine. But it's nice to pick up, put down, pick up, put down. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to just thank you, really. Thank you for all the books that you've done. Thank you.

I've loved this child It's been really thoroughly enjoyed it thoroughly enjoyed the conversation And for all the good that you do You know it's it's a beautiful thing To have someone in the world And I know you're slightly out of your comfort zone Sometimes with you know

The online stuff or the talks that you do But I'm really pleased you're doing it Not just for me but for everybody That gets to experience you I just see it as work It's just work And it's still my job It's like, you know, you have a job today as a broadcaster and journalist to present her.

And your work plays out in different ways. I mean, I think, you know, if there's a power greater than this here, they've got a very great sense of humour because I'm fucking way out of my comfort zone a lot of the time. At the end, I was going back to work on the 15th of January and I had been in bed for two and a half months. On and off, you know, I'd gone for a couple of walks a day, then gone. back to bed or seen feds, but I'd been housebound and I could

feel work looming but I was terrified and I really didn't want to go back and I was like I'm not ready I can't do it. All of these voices like your voice, imposter syndrome I can't do it anymore. What happens if I can't remember the script? I'm not going to be able to and my partner's going

this is the last step this is what you need. You will feel better when you go back to work. The fury I had towards him who I adore every time he wash it up I'd be like you don't understand

it made me understand people when somebody just says because this is not what this book's about it's about being a bit more compassionate and understanding but at the same time being practical about it and I thought oh I used to be of the school

because I'd never experienced anxiety acutely like that. I'd had a general anxiety all my life, but I'd never understood what it was like to feel frightened, leave your home, or to walk on your own, or to go out to social. I know loads of people who are frightened in crowded areas. I've never had that. I've never really worried in that kind of way.

And I was always a bit, you've just got to go and do it. It's quite harsh that. you know, now having experienced how I felt, it's quite a different way of looking at it. But then I think it changes everything then, doesn't it? Because when you've walked to walk in some way and you think actually no, I mean, taking a step out the door might be enormous. It felt like that to me. Although I have to say at the end of the first day that I went back to work and I sat in my car.

Yeah, I saw you're so sobbing. Yeah. With relief or? With, oh God, sorry. Okay. With pride. Yeah. And I wouldn't have felt that pride if I hadn't had the anxiety.

Yeah. I was terrified. And I did it. Yeah. And it felt really good. Yeah. And that's the whole thing though, isn't it? You know, that, you know, the anxiety and that whole experience was, you know,

even though uncomfortable, not easy, it was all part of that process. But I look back at it as a gift. Yeah, absolutely. You know, yeah. I think that's brilliant for people to hear because anyone who's listening to us today will probably think of their anxiety

is an awful thing or something debilitating or something that's getting in the way of their life. But actually what if, I mean, that is beautiful the way you described that. What if there is a lesson? What if there is a learning? What if there is a gift in it that you can work with and use and move forward with your life and away?

And that's a liberating thing. I mean, I see this in different ways every single day where I see people really once they can't find that independence and freedom and trust. And then you think, like, they, sometimes I'm really gobsmacked at where people end up on what they do and you know, and you're just like, oh my God. It's just like watching people take.

I'll tell you what makes it. What's lovely about it is you're always working with people at different phases. Sometimes you're with people at the beginning when it's just, everything's awful. Yes. And then you're watching that progressive stage. And then you've, you watch him literally sore and take off.

So you're always working. Oh, yeah, always. Always. Yeah. I'm very, you know, it's really funny. You say that.

I was looking through notes yesterday and I was to send an update, you know, like an email update thing to previous clients, send the book. I always do it when a book's coming out to send the books. books out if you're interested. And I've been incredibly, I work, I've worked with some really, really nice people. You know, I, you know, look, people have challenges and difficulties and stuff, but I always end up in front of just, well, I guess you find, regardless of what's going on, I think you just found a decent human being in there. In everyone. You found it anyway, but I just,

what's interesting is you worked in A&E and I always think A&E must be so difficult because you save someone's life and then they leave and you never see them again. And therapy is a bit like that. You get to the root of something. You work through something together and then they leave. Yeah, they think, are you okay? Like, but they come back. But then occasionally you see something. I'm sure she won't make me mentioning this because I talk about her in one of the books, but a lady I work with, very tragically lost one of her children. Yeah. I think it's the last book I talk about her. And she's now gone off and you know her daughter died very tragically

and she's 17, 18 years grieving wasn't getting anywhere with her grief and when I worked with her we discovered that you know there was real significant trauma around the loss of her daughter where actually it was almost a version of PTSD and that she'd never processed to trauma

so actually she'd never really been able to grieve the daughter over the 18 years so our work was about helping her resolve this trauma which we got there with and then she was able to start grieving and then the sadness came and then she she was renovating her house at the time and the daughter's room had never been touched in 18 years and she came to me in session Monday and she said the builders are asking me what I'm doing with with my daughter's room and anyway we talked about this and what the builders going into the room meant anyway we negotiated her daughter had a disco ball that she was

wanted to keep. So the negotiation with the builders were that they had to keep the disco ball, but they were allowed to work around, all of that. So anyway, she turned the daughter's bedroom into an art gallery and art studio because she loves to paint. And funny, I had an email from her last week since she's got an exhibition coming up in the next two weeks, but I come. So of course I'll go and see it.

So occasionally you'll work with somebody and then I think they got where it's their exhibition and you get to see their work. But you know where that work came from. that work. Yes, yes. You go into that gallery and you just see this incredible work. You kind of think, I know where that came from.

Yeah. And I know what enabled her to do that. It's not just a case. Her rocking up and doing an exhibition. There was a lot of pain and a lot of graft, and there was a lot to get through to do that there. So I think, you know, I think with our own suffering, our own struggle,

if we're willing to see that as a way of kind of, I think we can transcend most stuff if we're willing to work with the pain. Or I heard somebody described a beauty once, like even in these moments that are a bit dark

or heavier, there's struggle going on. What if instead of just thinking, oh, God, this is here, I don't want to feel it, what would it be like to look at and think, oh, God, this is more stuff

that I need to clear. Yes. And if I let this clear and I let this pass through, God, you know, there's, I'm lighter and God knows what, you know, there's great stuff here.

It's a very different way of seeing suffering. I mean, it's, it's interesting because it's like admitting a problem and then becoming willing to let go of it, you know, which is exactly, you know, it's we talk about addiction because that's kind of what we did with drugs, what I did with drugs, you know, it's interesting. Owen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

And lovely. Thank you so much. I've really, really, really, really enjoyed this chat and I know this book is going to have so many people. When I was talking to the guys yesterday about when we were planning this here and we were going through the church, and I said, I don't even think you need to worry about this. I knew confidently. I said, I kept saying to people, I know Owen.

He's my best friend. I said, you don't need to worry about this. I said, we don't need to really plan this too much. I probably, this will evolve. Yeah. And I knew it would. I hope that everyone I talk to will feel like that, but I knew we would because I feel, I know you.

Yeah, no. It's what weird. and you know me. I felt exactly as you. Can we give Owen a round of applause, please, bloody bad. I love my chat with Owen. He's such an easy person to talk to. And again, I think he's really great at delivering actionable tools,

giving us tools that we can use to help us combat anxiety. And the way that he talks about it, that makes us feel like it is something that we can have control over. So if you liked that episode of Begin Again, I would love it if you could subscribe and give it a little like, please.