Begin Again with Davina McCall - Your Ultimate Guide To Starting Over!

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

To celebrate one extraordinary year of Begin Again, we’ve curated the 6 most unforgettable pieces of advice that have helped our audience, and us, start over. From heartbreak and grief to love, sex, purpose and letting go, this episode is a soul-stirring guide to transformation. You’ll hear powerful insights from: Paul C. Brunson on dating and intimacy in midlife Cindy Gallop on owning your sexual confidence Robin Sharma on the mindset to truly change your life Gail McNeill on finding freedom by giving up everything Andi Oliver on navigating grief with grace Richard E. Grant on rediscovering joy after unimaginable loss Whether you’re at the beginning of something new or in the thick of change, these conversations will inspire you to begin again with courage, clarity and heart. Davina also shares a personal reflection on what this podcast has meant to her, and what’s coming next. 💬 Which moment resonated most with you? Leave us a comment. ❤️ Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share with someone who needs to hear this. (00:00) Intro   (02:19) Paul C. Brunson: Dating in Midlife and Keeping Your Marriage Exciting   (09:51) Cindy Gallop: Unlocking Your Sexual Confidence   (17:39) Robin Sharma: The Mindset to Change Your Life   (23:06) Adobe Ad   (24:14) Ancient & Brave Ad   (25:31) Gail McNeill: Getting Rid of Everything to Find Happiness   (31:34) Andi Oliver: The Best Advice on Managing Grief   (38:14) Richard E. Grant: Finding Joy After Losing the Love of Your Life   (43:19) A Message from Davina   Sponsored by: Adobe - https://Adobe.Ly/Davina Ancient + Brave - https://ancientandbrave.earth/pages/planet and use code BEGINAGAIN for 20% off your order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are we ready? The entire reason I started Begin Again is I want our listeners and viewers to have the opportunity to start over and over and over so that they can live a life that they love and that they have love and that they feel proud of. And I want everybody to believe that they can find the thing. Can you believe it? one whole year of Begin Again. Over the past 12 months, we've had the honour of sitting down with some really incredible guests, people who've taught us how to start over, how to move when we feel really stuck,

and how to find light when things feel dark or uncertain. We've looked at everything from grief and love to dating, careers, and of course the magic of midlife and for this very special episode we thought we'd give you something back because none of this would have been possible without your support your shares your comments and most powerfully your own begin-again stories so thank you so much for those honestly you've moved us so much just time and time again and we really really love you so today as a little treat we've put together a guide of the most unforgettable wisdom and golden nuggets that we've been gifted over the past year.

One of the very first conversations we had was on a topic that's as beautiful as it is complicated and that's love. And very few people speak to that better than Paul C Bronson. He helped us reframe dating in a way and especially in midlife, not as a compromise but as a chance to connect more deeply than ever before. So you said something earlier about guys looking for somebody half their age plus seven and women looking for somebody older. How are we ever going to meet each other in our 50s, if that's the case? Oh, 40s, 40s, 50s in midlife. Yeah.

Well, one is that's the old, slowly going away. Has it gone away? No, but that's one. Yeah. That's one. Secondly, is on an upside is there are more people in the 50 plus dating market. looking for partners than ever before, ever before. I mean, half of me is quite sad about that,

but half of me is quite happy, because for the 50 and 40-year-olds, like, well done. Yes, yeah, yeah. And the reason why I feel so happy, I'm more happy. Okay. Because, all right, I'm going to connect it to research. Yeah, yeah. So Eli Finkel out of New York has done some research

around the satisfaction rate in relationships, in marriages. He found that 80% of marriages today are not, they don't feel satisfied with their partner. 80%. 80%. 80%. 80%. That's sad. 80%.

Whereas 20% feel as satisfied or more satisfied than ever. Now, what does that mean and how do I relate that to being happy with the 50 plus market? So to me, that means, okay, the 20%, this is great. and they're probably so happy because they have so many tools today, so many great podcasts, et cetera, to listen to, this is good. The 80% are not satisfied, but they're staying in the relationship anyway. So when I see people break away from that relationship, typically I'm happy. What I'm really sad about are those that stay.

You know, it's one thing to be alone, but it's another thing to be in a relationship and still feel alone. That is just incredibly sad. So if you are 50 plus single sexy out here, I'm like, okay, yes, you go get yours now. You go get yours. And the beauty is you could get yours any way you want it. You don't have to get married. You can have a committed relationship.

You can choose to have a polyamorous relationship. You could choose to have whatever formation you want. But you now have the availability to do it. And because they're more 50 plus than ever before, the pool is larger. There's more tools now to connect. So from that standpoint, I'm optimistic about that. The other thing is when you look at the ages in which people are getting married, you still have the, I think, mid-30s is the number one age range for marriage.

But number two is right around 50. So you have a lot of people who have re-entered the dating market for whatever reason, empty nest, et cetera, and they're deciding and they're finding partners. And they're finding partners and they're entering relationships that are much stronger than any relationship they've ever had. It sounds like you and your wife talk a lot, you know. And it always makes me laugh this idea of a couple being married for such a long time. and then, you know, sometimes people say to me, like it's got to the point where he'll go fancy a shag tonight. You know, like, it's literally that kind of, that's foreplay.

And then, but actually if they said having a drink or something on a sofa, I'm trying to picture kind of how that could sound better. It would be like, if I was to take you to bed tonight, what would you like me to do to you? Or what would you like to do together? And you go, what are you talking about? You go, I'm just asking. And then you start talking about it.

And then bang, like you're already in the movie. Yes. So you know what the issue here is, and this is something that guys, fellas, we have to stop this. I'm sorry, we have to appreciate this, is that we are all turned on. And when I say turned on is there's what's called spontaneity, spontaneous sex. And then there's others who it takes us longer to, let I say, warm up to sex. Well, I think that's men and women, isn't it? It's like it. Exactly. Yeah.

Men and women, so there's a big gender difference and then also in terms of age. So fellas, if you have a wife and she's in her 40s or 50s or 60s, you coming home and saying, let's get it on right now, it's not going down the way that you want it. So that's one thing is that we have to appreciate that. The other thing is that we have to step outside of the script. Now there is a standard script that happens in heterosexual sex. And what happens is you could imagine if that is what you're used to and you're a woman who doesn't climax as a result of that, there's no orgasm as a result of that.

And we know that there's a massive orgasm gap. You know that after that has happened time and time and time again. You're not going to want to do it. You don't want it. Definitely you don't want that. You definitely don't want that. You'd rather secretly go upstairs. Find your toy.

Make yourself happy. Good night. Good night. You much rather the toy, you know? Men, we have to understand that this is happening. It's not about us. It is about we in this. It's like when you do these things together,

it opens up the opportunity to talk and discuss. So absolutely, incredibly important. The other thing I'd like to say to, I mean, I guess in same-sex marriages for women, I guess it would be the same thing, but I think intrinsically a woman would understand a woman and a woman's needs. But is that sometimes for women, foreplay,

is literally like cooking a meal together in the evening you get home or asking how the day was saying, would you like a glass of wine or shall I make you a cup of tea? That is foreplay because if you've had an evening where you've not communicated at all, you get into bed and you go, right, let's, even if you're not saying like fancy shagg, but the hand goes on the back, you think,

I know what this means. I know, I see that play out. Yes. So many times that actually the whole evening is foreplay. If you think that you want sex, like warm us up, you know, it's like a, that's so important. What I say is that foreplay begins the moment that sex has ended. That's really where it begins. You are so right.

For the next time, right? For the next time. Absolutely. Yes, Paul. This is it. This is it. This is it. Oh, my God.

That is so good. That's where it begins. Oh, that's actually made me feel amazing. Like, I just think that is actually it. How nice would that be for so many women if suddenly the guys were behaving, even if it was coming in two or three days' time, it's like, I'm going to start right now.

Paul's advice just lands, doesn't it? And I love that bit about foreplay. So good. He doesn't overcomplicate things, and he really helps us see love with fresh eyes, especially when we think we've seen it all already. Now speaking of love, we've got to talk about sex. One of my all-time favourite guests,

and I know so many of you would agree, was the one and only Cindy Gallup. She lit a fire in all of our bellies, showing us how to unlock our truest selves through sexual confidence and honesty. What I'm talking about is identifying your core values. Okay, so in life, Not just around sex.

No, no, no, no. Okay. In life. But I'll come on to how that applies to sex. Because when you do that, I mean, first of all, that makes life so much easier. Life still throws you all the shit it always will, but you know exactly how to respond to that shit in any given situation in a way that is true to you. Yes.

And that really is the secret of happiness. Living your life, working your work in a way that is always true to your values. And when you do that, when you know you're being a bit of life, true to yourself, you do not care what anybody else thinks. That gives you confidence because you know you're always being true to you. Cindy, hold my hands again. Wait. I've just had a feeling. Oh my God, I feel like I'm going to cry. Sorry. Oh my gosh. It's amazing. I'll tell you why. I think what you're describing is somebody genuinely being themselves. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that how there's something, my partner became Michael last year. I think I think I'm

I saw it happen. We were at a party. Yeah. And something happened and I looked at him and I was like, look how happy. Like, he was kind of throwing some shapes. He was doing this thing and I was like, oh my God, he's so free. Yeah. And I had a lot going on last year. And I know, I'm so glad you came through that. Thanks, thanks. Thank you. And I spoke to him this year, New Year's Eve. And he's like, right, this year, it's going to be a great year. And I said, this year, last year I watched you become you. And I said, this year, I'd love to really, really become a, because part of me has always been a people pleaser. Right. Which is slightly doing things that other people want me to do or expect me to do. Yeah. Get over that. Yes. But do you know what I mean?

Fun that shit. Yes. And from that not letting go. And I've had a couple of revelations already in January that have been absolutely amazing. What you're describing there, setting out your values, What it did was it made me feel the possibility of really, that's what it spoke to me. Yeah, that's what I felt you were telling me. Good, good. Wow, okay, I'm okay, I've swallowed it. Good. I haven't cried.

Let's crack on. Good, good. Because there's a second very important part of this. Because, so I designed my business, make love not porn, around all my personal beliefs and philosophies. One of which is, as I've just said, that everything in life, starts with you and your values. So I regularly ask people this question, what are your sexual values? And nobody can ever answer me because we're not taught to think like that. Yeah. Our parents bring us up to have good manners. A work ethic. Sense of responsibility,

accountability. Nobody ever brings us up to behave well in bed. But they should, because in bed values like empathy, sensitivity, generosity, kindness, honesty, trust, respect are as important as those values are in every other area of our lives where we're actually taught to exercise them. And so, you know, this is the concept of good sexual values that we're pioneering at Make Love Not Porn, because, as I say, it is bizarrely alien to the world and to popular culture. But it's simply about being yourself across every area of your life and your experience, including your sex life. And there are, you know, to your point about people pleasing, Devena, and that absolutely goes on in bed, there are an awful lot of people out there having very bad sex, not having the sex they want to have, because they have not looked within themselves, identified what they value in a sexual context,

and set out to have that part of their lives be as true to themselves as ideally every other part should be. I think what's interesting when you think about that is that there are so many different aspects to sex that for some people would be 100% acceptable. So, you know, I guess you could go from somebody who loves just totally vanilla sex, missionary position, doesn't really want to go far from that. That's where they feel happiest to somebody who loves all the different positions, to somebody who is into BDSM. Is, I mean, if you're into something from at that end of the range,

the BDSM, it's going to be quite hard to find a partner. You can't, how do you lay that out at a date or something? Well, well, so that's the really interesting point, Dvina, because actually it's not hard to find a partner because you can absolutely go to websites like, you know, FetLife or Field to give just a couple of examples. examples, which are specifically for people who want to explore, you know, kink BDSM, you know, three, etc. But I think the much more interesting thing to reflect on is precisely the question

you've just asked, which is, you know, for example, on a first date, we are really happy going, oh yeah, I like Thai food, you know, or I love vacationing in France, okay, but we are not comfortable going, oh yeah, and in bed, I really like this. Or it's really important to me, you know, that whoever I have sex with is this. And I mean, this is, you know, something that I and many other people, you know, equally with sex positive ventures and causes are all trying to make it happen, which is make it as easy to talk openly and honestly about ourselves sexually as we do again with any other aspect of what we are into or what we're not into.

And equally, by the way, you know, you've discovered you like Thai food because you actually were brave enough to go to the local Thai and try it. Then you ought to go, wow, I love this, I'm going to go on vacation to Bangkok. So you explored. But again, a lot of people do not do that sexually and don't feel able to do that, you know, because this is absolutely the universal air of human experience we're almost engaged with, most by and most fucked up about. And that means that you may never find out what you really, really enjoy because you're going, it's kinky or, oh my God, I can't possibly do that. And again, everyone should feel free to explore or not as they wish.

I think so many of us absolutely adored Cindy because she gave us permission, permission to be a bit curious, unapologetic, empowered, no matter what our age or experience. is. Anyway, now, something that I found deeply personal on this journey and he's just amazing on talking about resetting, rewiring, just changing the way that we see life. And he just does it so brilliantly. It's Robin Sharma. He reminded us that we get to choose how we start each day and how we carry ourselves through it. We're born into genius and too many good souls get resigned into ordinary. When we're little kids, we don't hate.

When we're little kids, we have a sparkle in our eye. When we little kids, we love doing our art. When we're little kids, we are possibilities. And then we do get it knocked out of us. We are taught to think like everyone else. I mean, we don't celebrate the free thinkers, but I think free thinking in this world we live in is a radical act versus, you know, group think. But why do we get to 40, 50 or 60 and then start waking up again? I believe it's because we start to connect with our mortality.

Right. When we're 20 years old, we have a huge runway. We're never going to die is what we think. When we reach the halftime point of our life and when we start thinking about beginning again, we realize the short. shortness of life. And one of my favorite acronyms is KDC, keep death close. KDC, keep death close. And I have a morning protocol. And part of that protocol is asking myself a question, what needs to be said at the end? Yes. And I, because there are five things, right? You wake up in the morning. Amazing. And that's the last one. Right. So tell me, what do you mean by that? I was,

that was going to be one of my questions too. It's weird that, well, there's nothing weird. This is completely as it's supposed to be. What does that mean? So the tool is the five, just to be of service to your many viewers and listeners, the protocol as part of the morning routine is called the five question morning maximizer. And these are five questions to ask yourself each morning and then just write a paragraph or two in your journal. And my clients have found it really valuable to be happier and more focused and more alive in their days. So the first question is, what am I grateful for? We know that gratitude is the antidote to fear. Second question is, where am I winning?

So we start celebrating some micro wins because the human brain has a negativity bias. We're always looking for what's missing and what's not working. This reframes it. Third question is, what must I let go of? Yeah. And we can talk about, you know, one of the great spiritual skills or leadership skills is learning to let go. Learning to let go of betrayals, disappointments, the past. fourth question is what does my ideal day head look like? So you have a little script. So you're

setting some intentions. And that brings us to the fifth question. What needs to be said at the end? And the more we can connect to the shortness of life, the more we can connect to our mortality, the more we're going to start to live to the point versus being busy, being busy, spending our days chasing trivial pursuits. And I think if we could just connect to our mortality every morning and strip away complexity and administrivia and even holding back the love in our hearts, holding back on the things our instincts as we should do. But we're, oh, what if I fail? What if I'm laughed at?

What if I look like a kook? And we just live from that instinct. I think we'd be so much happy in our lives. So when you say at the end, you mean at the end of our lives, you know, it's like, how am I going to feel on my deathbed? I turned down a job. I fell in love at 50. And I turned down a job that would mean that I probably wouldn't be able to be with my boyfriend in the evenings

because I'd have to get up so early to go to work. Because I thought to myself, on my deathbed, will I be pleased I did that job or will I be sad? I didn't spend more time with Michael. And I thought, I want to spend more time with Michael. So it's quite good when you think. of that, like, is that what you mean by that? That's exactly what I mean. Another little mental tool that I use is that thank goodness I'm healthy.

But if I'm lucky, I have 25 years left to live, maybe 30. And so I call this my 25 summers question. So when I'm about to make a decision, I say, well, I roughly have 25 Christmases left, 25 summers. Wow, that's quite sobering when you say. When you say it like that, you say, okay, I better get this done or I better do this ethical ambition or I better take this risk or I better chase that love story. So I think death is not depressing. Thinking about death is not depressing. I think thinking about death is actually inspiring because then it just sharpens you on what's most important in life. The one better guide from Adobe Express says if you want to get fresher social ideas, get outside, go somewhere different. So with the help of our sponsor, I need fresh ideas on how to fix this video.

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jokes. Dress outrageously, flirt outrageously and take your collagen. So when I say take your collagen every day, I don't mean putting a little bit of cream on at night. I mean taking true collagen by our sponsors, ancient and brave. They did a trial where 60 women were involved and all of them noticed a difference. They had an improvement in their skin, elasticity and a reduction in their fine lines and wrinkles. Win! So what really, really sets Ancient and Brave apart isn't just their award-winning products. It is their absolute commitment to sustainability.

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and beautiful stories we heard actually came from Gail MacNeil. She made the decision to give away everything she owned to find more, more meaning, more clarity, more peace. One day I went into a room

and I went into this room and I thought, when was the last time I was in this room? And then I realized, why are we living in this massive house? It's not, it's costing us lots of money to run, but we don't need it. There's two people. And something happened to you in this room. It was in this room thinking, what am I doing?

What? You know, I've got this huge house that I'm maintaining, painting and huge garden. There's two of us. You know, how long do I do this for? Do you know, how long do you do this whole kind of groundhog day? because there's so much more to life. And you kind of realize, well, I've got two beautiful cars. I've got this beautiful house.

I'm not doing anything. My son's off travelling the world. He's having an amazing time. I'm maintaining this house and working really hard to maintain this house. Right. So you were just working to fix the things to feed the beast. Yeah, to feed the beast. Yeah.

And it was like a loop. It was until I watched up in the air with George Clooney. He's got a lot to answer for George. Because I was watching George Clooney and in it he says, imagine everything you own in a backpack. Now put your belongings in there, put your family in there. And imagine how heavy that is. I didn't, I don't remember watching the rest of the program,

best of the film, because I was so stuck on that thought of holding everything I owned in a backpack. And I suddenly thought, oh, wouldn't it be amazing to get rid of everything I own? Wouldn't that be amazing? But I don't, I don't understand, girl. Like, because I'm at the pre-you, I'm at, you're still, I'm still in the beast. I'm still feeding the beast. I don't understand.

This is huge. Oh, it's massive. It's a massive thing. I mean, but I don't understand how that happened. These are huge changes that you're thinking about. Yeah. But it can be just, I'm quite spontaneous. Yeah.

And it was just that, it was just him saying that line. Imagine everything you owned in a backpack. Wow. And I thought, imagine if you could. for everything you're owned in a backpack. How amazing, how agile would you be? You wouldn't be burdened because everything you own, you have to take care of it.

You have to keep it warm. You have to keep it clean. You have to protect it. I have to stop people from stealing it. You know, it's all things, anything that's worth anything. Oh, you've got to take care of it. Or you've got to get it insured and on and on. And I thought, well, what if I don't own anything?

What if I literally have a few clothes and things that I can't let go of? Luckily, I've got a very tolerant husband who when I said, I want to sell the house and I want to get rid of everything. He said, okay. And I said, but I mean everything. He said, yeah, okay, that's fine. So this task of having this huge house full of furniture, full of stuff, I then had to start the process of decluttering

and getting rid of everything. It was just huge. What was that like? Everything you need is within yourself. Everything you need is within yourself. So all these things actually mean nothing. I'm not very sentimental when it comes to things. So I started by getting rid of big things.

But then, I mean, I would have loved it if everything would have gone in a backpack. But sadly, with documents and pieces of paper and bits and bobs, we ended up with 10 boxes, 10 boxes. 10 boxes. Can I tell you? Your whole life was in 10 boxes. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I want to shake your hands of that. Like, congratulations. Oh, it's a being, honestly, if you get the chance to just experience that for a short while, You, I mean, in five years' time, you might be my George Clooney. Oh, could be. Your life sounds amazing to me. But it is now, but in a different way. So when I had my lovely sports car, my lovely four-wheel drive,

and I was just like, oh, my God, this, you know, you're excited about achieving it. I was just thought, oh, you know, I can get this amazing car. But when you get the car, you drive it for an hour and you're like, oh, it's actually just a car. And so they're actually, like you said, they become a prison, they become a stress. And I remember one of my biggest paychecks and I had everything I ever wanted, my first thought was, how can I get out of this situation? How can I stop wanting more? How can I not have this big house? How can I not have these cars?

And how can I be happy? One of the things that I felt about your period of needing more was a feeling of control, like control. I need this, I've got to control that, I've got to go, and that actually what you did was just a massive let go. Yeah. Did it feel like that to you? Maybe control, but I think I was just so driven to be successful. I don't know why I was driven to be so successful, but it was just this burning urge to be successful and to have everything I'd ever dreamt of. And then when I did let go, I let go, I really let go.

I let go of everything I'd ever wanted. I thought I wanted, but it was not what I needed. We all want these things, don't we? But at the end of the day, do we need them? You don't need a lot to be happy. So when I let go of all these things, every time something left the house, I felt this amazing feeling of freedom.

Gail's story is an amazing reminder, isn't it? That sometimes the less we carry, the freer we feel. And of course we can't talk about starting again without talking about endings. Grief has been a bit of a recurring theme here on Begin Again, and we've been so lucky to learn from people who faced it with such courage and grace. And one of them is my dearest friend, Andy Oliver. After losing her brother, Sean, she's shared something that has stayed with me ever since. On his greystone, it says he who,

burns twice as bright, burns half as long. Yeah. And there's a shooting star on his, on his gravestone. And it's never truer, never a truer word was spoken. And when it relates to my brother. And I, you know, the further away I get from it, the more grateful I am that I had him at all. Yes.

And the further away I get from it, I understand that life is what happens to you when you're here and what you do with that period of time some people live till they're 95 and don't make any impact at all and you know there's a sadness to that deep sadness and i think of shawn's funeral remember the funeral there were people that you couldn't get into the crematorium there were people it was sunny day it was like it was like the royal death that happened on nabit grave the whole place went still the hearse came up the road it's amazing lined on the streets and all around the outside of the crematorium there's like banks and there were like people four deep on the banks outside the crematorium and that's a testament to my brother and what he did with the time that he had here and that's a beautiful

powerful thing and his children are incredible his grandchildren are extraordinary and i get to have them and be them and i get to be his sister forever you know that's the other thing i'm like so proud that that was my brother And I got to have that with him, that we got to tour the world. We got to be in this incredible band together and do all this extraordinary things in this really short space with time. You know, so I, as an older person, I have so much gratitude for having him at all.

And I remember, I don't know if I've told you this, but I think I might have told you when you and Sarah came to do, staring up with me and Mikita. Margie Clark, as an actress. She was in that film years ago. something about letter to Brezhne if it was called. She was the lead, and it's a brilliant Libra Pundian actor, just fantastic woman. And I met her after Shawna died.

I was with Viv Goldman walking up Port Vela Road, and there was a big bus there, and Margie was filming. And Margie brought us onto the bus, and Viv said, oh, this is Andy. And I was, you know, she was explaining to Margie why I kept bursting into tears, and Margie said, Andy's brother died a few weeks ago. And it was literally a couple of weeks later. And Margie sat down and she took my hands, and she said, said, I lost my brother 23 years ago.

And I was like, it was like water to a dying woman. I'm hearing these words because I looked at her and knew she understood. And she said, it'll never go away, but you'll find somewhere to keep it. She said, people will say lots of things to you and you probably swap them all to fuck off. And I said, sure. And she said, this is all I can give you. and it was the greatest gift anybody could ever give me and it's turned out to be absolutely true

it's never gone away but I find somewhere I've found a little quiet place within and that's where it lives the pain of it and every now and again it comes up like just now and it feels very recent and real and all over again I mean we were discussing before we started how mad it is that the last time I saw you

because life is just so mad isn't it? We have to tell us. I was on your podcast. And it was a year ago. And it was a year ago. To this week. And we realized then, oh my God, it's actually the anniversary of your brother dying this week. And we've done it again.

And we've done it again this week. Without knowing or realizing. We just realized at the car. Yeah. Last night, a lady in bed and I went, hang on, what day is it? It's 34. I was like, my God, we've done it again. So this weekend, it will be 35 years since Sean died.

Bad. Absolutely. So that to me, you see, I feel like they are stard us. They are stardust. The people we lose are stardust and they live in us. They live all around us. I believe this really firmly. We've both lost enough people at this point in our lives.

You know, I'm not a religious person but I do have a spiritual sense of the world that I cling to sometimes like it's a lifeboat. You know, that sense of that which we cannot put our fingers on, that which is intangible. And that's what, again, coming back to these things about books and music, those are the things that books and music help me to connect to is the stuff that we cannot imagine,

the stuff that's bigger than us, that's greater than us, that is outside of our control. There's nothing to do with what we decide and what we choose. It just is, you know. And after, I think, any great loss in your life, connecting to that is the thing that keeps you alive and keeps you going and keeps you inside your own body because somehow grief makes you leave your own body

you kind of float above yourself like you know it took a good couple of years prior and re-entered my body after Sean died I was like hovering above for quite a long time I felt when my sister died I felt like the whole world just stopped spinning and I'd go places and I'd think oh the world's still spinning for you like I can't move forwards Yeah, and I'm literally getting on with their lives, which they're meant to do.

Yeah, which everybody's meant to do. But it was quite hard to explain that to somebody. Yeah. I always try to remember to check in with people who've lost someone because it is a weird. It's after the funeral, everybody goes back to getting on with their lives and you're fine now. Just sit in there. It's a bit like having a baby actually is the same thing. Like after the baby comes, it's interesting because it's birth and death.

So further, therefore, after the baby comes, this monumental thing happens in your life that changes you forever. And everybody else is like really interested, oh, lovely, or, oh, poor you, that's a terrible nightmare. And then they have to get on with their own life. So it's just normal. But then you're sitting there going, oh, my God, now I've got a baby. What happens next? You know, or, oh, my God, I've lost somebody. How am I supposed to carry on?

And you find a way. As I said to Andy in that episode, grief doesn't mean forgetting. It's about holding on in a new. new way about making space for love and loss to live side by side, which then brings me on to one of the most emotional conversations I've had on this podcast. It was with the wonderful Richard E. Grant after he lost his beloved wife Joan, and he found a way to honour her every day by just looking for a pocketful of happiness. The most difficult part, as always, as I'm sure you know, is what I call the steering wheel stuff that at the end of the day, downloading everything,

then what was Devena like? What is her hair color? Do you think she dyes her hair? How much facial surgery is she had? I love that. What were her boots like? How long did it take you to get to the East End? Four years.

All of that stuff that you just talk about during the day or your observation of it, not being able to tell the other person anymore, I found, I thought, wow, this is like this sort of grand canyon of, you know, it's a bottomless hole. And in exactly the same way that I started keeping a diary when I was 10 and have continued to do so, I then, I now write to Joan every night. And I have no, you know, woolly spiritual delusion that she's hearing this or that I'm going to get a response. But I know in writing to her it somehow makes, it keeps the connection going.

because I know what her response would be. Do you write Dear Joan? Yeah. So I write emails to her. I mean, I write in an email form in a diary, but, you know, Dear Joan, and today this happened, this would really have amused you. I think we should do this. So it's somehow it makes it feel like that person is still there.

It's an ongoing conversation. Sorry, I interrupted you. No, don't. Do you not feel that she's still there? No. She's gone. Yeah. I mean, she's inside me and in my daughter and in the memory of our friends, and I've

got photographs of her or one in the house, but I don't, my father was unequivocal about saying that heaven and hell are human concepts and everything is the here and now. We only have one life. Nobody's come back. And I haven't been able to find a better theory than that. So I take great comfort from the fact that it is how life has been completed in the same way that all the other people that I know and have never come back. So I have no, I'd like to have had faith that somehow when you die, I'm going to see all the pets and the people that I've loved in some other space. But I don't have any delusion that that is going to take place.

And I find that reassuring. So are you reassured now about the end of your life? Yeah, yeah. And she said to me, would I bury her ashes underneath a cherry tree that we've got in this cottage in Gloucestershire? And that's the one thing that I have not been able to do. I've still got her ashes in the box that they came in. There are your sisters. Sister, I can't bring myself to do that.

And, you know, I know that people said, well, that's her last wish, but it might not be her actual ashes. I said, that doesn't really matter. It's just that is the last thing that I have of her physically. And I just can't bring myself to do that because I think, well, if I sell this house or there's a rainstorm in the mud, you know, illogical stuff. So I think just better to keep this in the box. I don't think it's illogical at all. Well, she asked that they be, you know, bad in the garden next to the charity. I understand you saying if there's rain or like if we sell, like then she's left there.

Yeah. But that's not practical. It's just an emotional, you know, thing. Still stopping you from doing those. Sentimental old fool.com. Yeah. I do really understand that. Yeah.

Richard. Devena. I just quickly want to ask you, pocketful of happiness, where are you going to find that today? I've already found it. Great. So I was really hoping you were going to say that.

I was like, please, please let me be Richard's pocketful of happiness for today. You are? You are, you are, you are. I want to be teachers pet or anything, but it, you know, it's nice. You are? I'm very happy. Cheers. Cheers. And you don't drink either.

That's another kind of allergy that we have. Yeah, well, I basically am. I mean, if I did, I'd be streaking around here, so, you know, it would be a disaster. They'd all think it was very funny. So would I. Disaster for my career. Yeah, would be. Yeah.

That's what my mum used to do. She used to walk around and flash people and I'd look and she'd be naked underneath that coat up. Put the minge away. Put it away, mother. Yes. This year has been an incredible journey. I will never forget. We've laughed, we've cried, we've grown together.

And the best part is we're just getting started. We've got an incredible line-up ahead of guests who are going to inspire, comfort, challenge and keep us evolving. And I just want to say thank you actually also to the whole team because I've been on quite a massive personal journey. And coming here every week has at times kept me sane. And it's meant a lot like this podcast. cast has saved me. I've begun again. So I just want to thank all of the team from the bottom of my heart and thank you. You know, I start to begin again because I believed, and I strongly believe still in second chances. And I love you all my gang and I love you

and I love our guests. But thank you because something has grown out of this and I'm so proud of it. And I feel very privileged to be able to be here in this seat. If you haven't already, it would mean the world to us if you like and subscribe and share the love. And as always, we'll see you next week. Love you.