Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 112

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

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Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch. If you want, if you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome to Ikid Atten here, a podcast that we are recording for the first time. All of the audio worked perfectly. It was great.

Yeah, we, the society that has put multiple human beings on the moon did successfully produce functioning audio software. It's wonderful. Yeah, and with me to celebrate this is Carl Eugene Stroud. He's a language teacher and anarchist built-ins and read angles. He's a bus driver and an anarchist member of the Center for a Special Fist Most Studies. Yeah, both of you. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you for having us for the wonderful

celebration of audio recording technology. It's all great. It's all wonderful. Speaking of things that are wonderful, this is this is this is why they pay me the I might legally allow to say that it's below market rate. So why they pay me the slightly below market rate bucks. Yeah, So speaking of wonderful, we are here to talk about a, I guess putting things back together project, which is Bill Tink kindergarten. And I guess I guess we should start with talking about what Bill Tink kindergarten is and what it isn't in terms of like it's not we're teaching or teaching small children how to take apart buildings. Yeah, so Milton kindergarten is a multi-month study of a text and in that way, you know,

we call it a seminar but it's not that much different than reading group or a study circle or any of those kinds of things. Essentially what we're doing is we're using one text to revisit and have conversations with different people that are at various points in the path of radicalization. We're distinctly trying to spread the word about the importance and necessity of militancy in our movements, but also teach people about a specific smoke, which is an anarchist current that comes

out of Latin America. But it's also like, you know, in the socialist movement, anarchists can often be characterized by stereotypes that come from Marxists and that in the libertarian and anarchist movement, any kind of mass anarchism, any kind of class struggle anarchism, can also be characterized by individualists and insurrectionists. And so we mean to not convert people

to a certain current of anarchism. We see this as a kind of grouping of tendencies. So all the participants come from different ideologies. This is just a reading group. So you've got to apply this stuff, you know, outside of this. This isn't some kind of be all-end-all solution. We're not, you know, educationalists thinking that this is going to be the first step in some like process that we're just already on. But at the same time, we think that educational space needs to be defended. That's why this is the third militant kindergarten. So, yeah, maybe I'll let Reed talk about some of the ones, how we've gotten here.

And yeah, kindergarten up to now. Yeah, sure. I think that's a good explanation. The group basically started off in the wonderful, amazing, complicated year 2020. In the wake of the uprising over the summer, in the wake of the uprising over the summer, both of us live in a relatively small, on with maybe an outside, hundreds of above its weight in terms of like activism and anarchism, there's probably more anarchist tendencies here than there are anarchists.

And something that we saw in the wake of the height of the uprising was one, a huge amount of burnout that people weren't really addressing, the solution to burnout that we saw being proposed was just to do it again more harder. And we also saw a, the burnout as kind of coming from a lack of strategy and organization on the ground. People sort of repeating tactics because that's what you do and that's what we were doing so we're just going to try to keep doing it. And both of us were unable to participate in the more aggressive street actions that

we're going on at the time. So we decided we we individually needed to study and get better at our understanding of strategy and reflect in a non-urgent space where you could just like pause and learn and discuss the topic. So we were, yeah, we hit upon, we were both kind of simultaneously interested in the especially as a female parent from Latin America. So we both just kind of decided, yeah, we want to read some of these texts. And we quickly came upon social anarchism and organization. And we thought like, wow, this is a really comprehensive introduction, not only to the tendency, but also to anarchism and social anarchism broadly.

Like it really covers just the basic anarchist principles and theory up to history and organizational theory, strategy, tactics, ideology. It's in a much higher, more sophisticated and like, I guess like modernize way than many other previous documents we'd read. It's like, if you took the platform, you know, the Moxonviss platform, we should explain what that is, because people are not going to. Yeah. Yeah.

OK. Going back. So it's the organizational platform of the Entertus Federation of Reordination Hero, Yeah. Okay, so in back. So it's the organizational platform of the anarchist federation of reordination hero, which is basically their foundational document. And it's a very comprehensive look at the kind of theory and strategy and work that goes behind,

goes on behind founding an organization like that. It's similar to the anarchist platform written by the Magnivist and ex-Island Paris, the Ukrainian anarchist and ex-Island after the revolution in Russia. They wrote this platform saying anarchist should maybe be somewhat organized and unified in their tactics and their strategies and received a whole bunch of pushback from it, but founded these sort of platform as current of anarchism. But really when you go back to the platform, there's not a ton there. It's more of a document for organizing a military force,

you know, already ongoing revolution, whereas what we found in social anarchism and organization is it's a much more broad kind of introduction to social anarchist organization that is more widely applicable to a variety of situations. Yeah, and, you know, okay, so we've covered a specific Mo on here with Andrew Watson. I think we've talked about it a little bit in some other episodes, but yeah, do we want to get into what, what about a specific Mo is sort of different from older kinds of like well just

like other anarchist tendencies and other sort of kinds of platformism and talk a little bit about how it sort of came about because it's it's one of the tendencies I guess that some people adopted in the US, but I don't I don't think it's as famous as a lot of other tendencies here. Yes, so a lot of the motivation behind organizing the Center for S. Bessafismo studies, this came after after us studying this text a few times locally, we decided to formalize this into militant kindergarten. And a lot of that came from the need to articulate what is a specificismo in English, because a lot of the resources, a lot of the ideas and writings come from Latin America. And so they're written in Spanish. A lot of the theory has been developed in Spanish.

their written in Spanish. A lot of the theory has been developed in Spanish. Especifismo originally comes from the anarchist Federation of Uruguay. In the 1960s, they began to articulate a kind of organizational strategy that imagined what the way we've described it is kind of two rails for a train and this train is bringing this revolutionary rupture. So these two rails are the social level, which includes all kinds of class struggle. This is class struggle against domination, exploitation and oppression, and the other rail is the political organization. And so this is the anarchist principles and ideologies that, yeah, I think we share probably pretty broadly

with most all anarchist currents, at least, you know, coming out of the socialist movement. But when it comes to the way to balance these and to keep them both working toward the same ends, we see a need to keep them theoretically distinct. And so a lot of what we've done at the Center for Especifismo studies is try to articulate these ideas in English so that studies is try to articulate these ideas in English so that we can start to develop what that means here and not just sort of translate or take a translation and sort of try to input an idea into our own context. So like you said, like I think that some of the, we could take, for example, the Black Rose, Rosa Negra, anarchist federation in the US. That's the largest organization of as

specific as anarchists in North America. They are distinctly influenced by this current. They have sister organizations in Latin America. And, but they're just one kind of organization that's kind of known on a national level. And as far as planting its ideas in North America, we're definitely still doing that work. So a lot of what we've done is also develop secondary resources. This includes audio versions of this text, but also things we've produced through our study and through these discussions that come out of kindergarten. So last year, for

example, we made a mini-zene. There was a kind of working group that worked on a mini-zene to define some basic terms and make something really, really, really basic and introductory to a specific FISMO. We also, I've written a few pamphlets, one of which is, how do you say a specific FISMO in English? And so that is, yeah, exactly trying to address this idea. And, you know, some people they hear a specific eSMO and they're like, oh, that's, you know, exotic and cool and like new. And that's a reason to be attracted to it. But then, you know, other people might hear

that. And they have kind of other reactions where they sort of try to put it into a really specific box. I mean, what our understanding is is that it's important to be able to acknowledge what current you're kind of plugging into, where your ideas are coming from. It takes a lot of pressure off of us to not feel like we're inventing everything and we're supposed to be coming up with the most perfect cool ideas. But it's also a humbling experience of like, yeah, we know about this because other people have done this militancy before us to make these things available for us to have preserved these ideas. That's the political level of the two rails, right? So that's that is preserving

this so that it is possible to say, I have this opinion about a specificismo and it relates to my context in this way or likewise that it doesn't, you know, if we don't have anyone doing that militancy to preserve those ideas, then it's actually not even up to people to be able to pick them up and use them the way that they see fit. One of the sort of barriers is I think kind of what you were alluding to of like a specific e-smile as a tendency in the US is that it wasn't like it wasn't really, it wasn't developed in the American context and that has different sort of You know that that that that that that that has sort of like a range of different effects

um and What one of the things that I think is very interesting about it that I think is definitely a product of the context that it was developed in is The strategy of social insertion Yeah, I was wondering if you could talk a bit about social insertion and how you see that working in the US and how sort of, like, how do we think about this sort of in the wake of 2020 and the kind of restructuring of what is sort of happening inside of social movements in the US? Yeah, I think the 2020 lesson is very important for thinking about

social insertion for anyone who doesn't know it's just the practice of anarchists who are organized in the same organization being present in social movement within them supporting them, trying to help them achieve their own goals rather than take them over or something like you would see in maybe a entry of them from Trappi or something. But yeah, I think one of the major problems that we ran into and we started reading this stuff is social insertion requires there to even be social movement. Yeah, that was an issue in the US for a long time

because we didn't really have social movements in the way that Latin America does. Right, or when we do, they're like extremely spontaneous or kind of chaotic, or they could be extremely co-opted or managed by a political party, Democrat, some socialist group, Republicans, whoever. And so that's kind of one of our major sort of projects of theoretical translation into North America.

You can't just plug this into North America and say, okay, we're going to go join ex-social movement to achieve these goals and obtain this amount of influence there. And we really have to start, I think what is useful about that problem is that it forces us to start really trying to theorize what actually is happening here, what social movement actually is there. And that leads us to start thinking about things more literally like movements. What does it mean to be moving? What is the role of anarchist in movement? So we can think of an idea that we've developed is the idea of anarchists who are organized as anarchists.

The role of them in movement is to actually literally be moving between different kinds of spaces, different movements and starting through their movement to generate a kind of flow and of people and of ideas and energy and momentum acting as a small motor within a big, a big system, if you will, not driving it, but getting things going. And so I think that's kind of more the level that we're at here in the US is,

we still need to just theorize what is out there and how can we help it, how can we plug into it, how can we start getting things moving in a direction that is actually going to meet the needs of these movements, or these movements that aren't yet articulated well. You see this with the rise of tenant unions and tenant organizing, still in a very like nascent stage, but people are seeing that need and they're starting to get that moving from a variety of socialist tendencies. And I think, yeah, the idea is important in this context because we have to, we have to be finding these spaces, we have to be moving to them and we have to be returning to our own spaces to be able to actually understand what we're encountering out there and figure out how to adjust course or move to something else or adapt to a new situation.

Yeah, like maybe similar to Reed said there, this idea that the politics need to be moving, that anarchism needs to be a movement and that in that way, we can't allow our ideas to be stuck in certain stations or organizations or spaces that are friendly or that we're really familiar with. We need to be able to engage those ideas in the relevant spaces where we do live. That looks really different in different parts across the US and North America. So the idea that we would be able to just simply take one thing and apply it across the board would also be really limited here. And so I think a lot of what we've seen

in terms of the utility of a specificismo as an influential current in leftist politics in North America is this theoretical aspect and how we can see both, like we learn more about social movements, more about the necessity of them being popular, more about popular power. And at the same time as in doing that, that shows us more about what is political unity,

what is, you know, unity of strategy, what is unity of theory, what is unity of commitment. And that those things we want to, as we keep learning about them individually, that goes back to this train idea of there being to rails, as we need them to be on independent cycles. We know that social movements don't last forever. That mobilizations and insurrections will fade away. That there are ebbs and flows of the engagement. And that when we're talking about a massive popular level, we should expect that even more, right? Plenty of people will only, even if they're engaging

militantly, only be engaging militantly with social movements, not with political ideas, not with political organization. And so the idea that something needs to endure, someone even needs to be able to tell the story from the last time that things got spicy so that we understand even what happened. Without even necessarily having the critique or the analysis, even just simply the retelling is something that is grossly missing from our struggles in North America.

And so that's where we see like, they're being a complete absence of political organizing, and especially when we think about being on an entirely different cycle. So that kind of goes back to kindergarten being an annual thing, and where we live, like in the winter, there's not a lot you can do. And so it kind of made sense to develop a seasonal pattern of this, right? Where like exactly as things are dying down, it's kind of like, well, the people who do still have capacity, the people who are still attempting to be active, how can we keep that little bit of movement moving and going? The idea of the metaphor of a small engine, a small motor is often used in a specific

smoke. And that that's what the political level is trying to be is a small motor just assisting in something larger that's happening, but it needs to be connected to something larger that's happening. Yeah, and I think a key part of this for us that we've found is that in our context there exists sort of these two levels, to some extent. There are political organizations and there are social movements, but what is often missing, like we were struggling with this, trying to find the way into one or the other. And what we discovered is that like this kind of educational tendency of really open, really educational, really discussion based learning,

kind of start to generate that movement between the two. Like, by having this space open to beginners and experts, so to speak, you're able to actually get more movement open between the two. So it opens up political organizations, people who have not participated in that before, don't have a way into it. And it opens up social movement to people who may be politicized, but are not organized in some sort of social and it starts to mix everything together in this learning space where we can build trust as a learning community. And assist each other in connecting these kind of two necessary levels of organization.

I've been thinking a lot about how you were talking about how we don't have any kind of organizational continuity between movements and the kind of disorganization and the loss of just memory that happens with that. And I think it's one of these weird things because you can find people who've been in like all of these movements. But if you're relying on just, you know, okay, well, you can get the story of what really happened in Occupy, Oakland, if you know exactly like the right you know, okay, well, you can get the story of what really happened in Occupy Oakland if you know exactly like the right four people. And you can't say their names because like, you know, I mean, this is always sort of been a problem with parts

of social movements because I mean, there's stuff that necessarily has to be clandestine, like, you know, there's research for operational security, but also just means the stuff gets lost. And yeah, I think having a, like having a thing that goes as a way to transmit, got thing that goes, wow, incredibly technical language, you know, but having, having an organization that can act as a bridge between these sort of moments and also is able to sort of, you know, allow people spaces for discussion, for reflection, for learning. That's also sort of a bridge between like, like, I don't know, I guess like capital P, political organization and the social stuff is a, it's a, it's a, it's a really interesting

idea. And yeah, I don't know. I think, I don't know. I think this is a really interesting idea. And yeah, I don't know. I think, I don't know. I think this is a very cool project. And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what else comes out of it as the new session sort of approaches. Yeah, I think what you're just saying about, how do you learn about what happened in Occupy, Oakland

without having to go through like three layers of signal chats or something to find the right person to learn from anonymously, this is being a process with allegedly, this happened. It's a real problem that we've thought about. I think a big thing for us that we've found is a role that we can play is that there are they need out there for there to be some sort of,

we call it, mask off, anarchism. Like there needs to be a public-facing, approachable space where you can actually just learn about stuff. And yeah, there is definitely a need for operational security culture or for clandestine things, but those things don't need to be everything. For those who even exist, you need levels that are more open to people. Otherwise, those things just become increasingly lost. they go down the memory hole as they say, or the Latin American groups like to talk about anarchism becoming ghettoized further and further like separated from mainstream society and there's no ways in unless you like, you know a guy. So that was something, that was a problem

we were encountering and something that like from our particular circumstances we felt like we could provide and maybe certain modeling for people as a group. I think also like you mentioned there like this idea of memory and what what Black Rose has referred to in their program as muscle memory like for our organizations. This idea that like I mean organizing seems so mysterious to us

because we don't have this kind of active, like, living memory of how to do that. It's not just a thing we do by second nature, like without really needing a lot of work. And so I think in that sense, like, we could also think of there being two kinds of struggles going on where on the social level, the struggle is the class struggle, and the antagonists are the dominant people in society.

It is the ruling class. It is the status quo. It is the capitalist system. But on the political level, there's also struggle because it's not about everybody just being one uniform block. It is about that struggle, though, not being trying to topple each other, but instead trying to develop and create unity. It's not find unity, it's not a look for the people you have the most consensus with because that in itself is even really limiting. That we need to be able to form new agreement, we need to be able to find and struggle for that unity with people who aren't trying to just aim for a divisive end.

There needs to be an antagonist on the social level, but on the political level, the goal is unity. It's not struggle for the sake of taking down the opponent. In that sense, something else that we do in, in military kindergarten and in the Center for S.B.E.S. Most Studies is not just try to do a reading but try to produce a reading, try to leave behind some kind of trace of our reading. That's an important aspect of this. So all of our sessions, we take thorough notes and those notes are available to all the participants. People can go back through it later to look at what was said if they missed a session or if they'd like to follow along

with those as they, as the conversation goes to help add other aspects of support. Then what we do is we have a whole other team that goes through those notes afterward and produces a kind of internal journalistic writeup of what happened in that meeting. And so we will also be releasing those this year as part of our kind of monthly publishing

that we'll be doing. So for people who are interested in this, when is it happening and how do you get involved? It starts on January 13th and it runs till April 20th of next year, 2024. And we're going to be holding the session on Saturdays, due to 4pm in Pacific time, US, which is not the greatest time for everybody, but it's where most of us are based, kind of on the edge of time here, on the West Coast. And the best way to get involved is to just send us an email. We have it, email, the specificities most studies at gmail.com. And that's the way to sort of start the enrolling process. You just need to take the one step, send us an email and we'll get you signed up in all the materials and then link and all that stuff.

Yeah, well, we'll put the email in the description. You're probably links to the website too. I think on that note, unless you do have anything else that you want to say or plug. No, I think that's it. Yeah, good, Brett. I would like to see people there. It's going to be an interesting year.

I can guarantee you that. Yeah, we're. Yeah, like the literal year 2024, who knows what's going to happen. And even kindergarten is going to be pretty interesting. We've had a lot more people contacting us than last year. So it's going to be a pretty big and diverse group that will be interesting to see kind of what everybody's able to produce out of that gathering and learning space.

Yeah, maybe another thing just to say real quick is just that even if somebody doesn't feel like they could make that time, it's still worth reaching out to us. We will be developing other seminars and things in the future. And if you don't think that you'd be able to make it to all the sessions, like don't worry about that either. That's part of what we do this every year is that we expect that, you know, working people without a lot of time will need more than one year to, you know,

get all this information. So we expect people to need to kind of be cobbled in together a few sessions here and there for several times. And yeah, you're definitely welcome to do that and shouldn't feel as if it's like a kind of start and then you're stuck and afraid to start. So yeah. Yeah, it's a sort of an endurance study group. So yeah, we don't want anyone burning themselves out. Do what you can, talk together and together. Yeah, it sounds like it's going to be a great program and yeah, excited to see what comes out of it. And yeah, if you want, if you want to get your theoretical stuff in before fighting season presumably starts again around the election, yeah, now is the time.

It's going to be really chaotic for the next like long time. So this is your opportunity now. Yeah, well, it's been a good idea to arm ourselves with this one. It's going gonna be rough. Yep. And yeah, on that note, this has been Nicky Dappin here. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at full-sun media, etc, etc. Yeah, go go go go into the world and learn and then use that to of the world and learn and then use that to make the world less gone all over. Hillary Burton Morgan here and I am excited to share with you a new series I'm launching, a companion podcast, to my passion project, Sundance TV's True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here.

Now on the show, we focus on small towns and the crimes that can rip them apart. The cases we've covered have confused me and they have made me deeply question our judicial system. What got me so excited about doing this podcast is that we have more time to really dig in. So you're going to hear more information on these cases as well as never before heard interviews and you'll get to go behind the scenes with me and the team and learn what it's like to make a show like this. Come join us as we get curious and get involved. Listen to True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world-changing figure. That night he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea. What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy. I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social, emotional, networks. And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all. They had Kansas spray paint, and they're just putting big axes on machines, and it's almost like kids playing on the playground, just choose them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it, getting the bars,

done, excuse being a total f***. But I want the reader to see it in action. My name is Evan Ratliffe, and this is On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four-part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to On Musk on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much. Like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news,

we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, nothing much happens. I'm an architect of Kozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day.

Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches were kite fly and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of Nothing Much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's another Chicago episode. It's it could happen here at the podcast where things fall apart. I'm your host, Neil Wong. This is another episode about Chicago Police Departments who occupy a city, groaning under its tyranny. And with you to talk about some absolutely batshit,

Chicago police stuff, and also how, at Brandon Johnson, our mayor has also shit, is raven, the Chicago Journal of some things press. Hi, is our mayor ever not shit? You know, no, it's holy shit. It's never got bad. It's never not bad. And it's always like, you know, the progressive darling who ran on promises and then slowly break some and, you know,

breaks everyone's hearts over time. Yeah, I will, I will say, Brandon Johnson wasted absolutely no time on the heartbreaking part. Like he really, he really just wanted to rush that shit out. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of Brandon Johnson stuff that we could talk about and we will, but eventually we're going to do the episode on the migrant camp and the fucking, the migrant camp and the toxic waste dump. But that's going to happen next year. Right now, we want to talk about a different, utterly insane Chicago thing. Well, this is actually a thing in other cities too. I wanted to talk about shotspotter. So, I guess to start with, can you explain what shots spotter is for people who don't have it

in their city or don't know? Well, it's in, I want to say 130 different cities across the country, so a lot of people probably do have it, but it's a gunshot detection system. So basically, just through a bunch of fancy tech stuff, which we won't get into. And I'm not even going to pretend to understand, you know, that side of it. It's these audio sensors that are installed all around the city, right? And in predominantly black and brown neighborhoods, you know, they're specifically in Chicago. There's actually a lawsuit currently up and coming filed by the MacArthur Justice Center over the fact that they are primarily installed in black and brown neighborhoods and not on like the North

side. And yeah, it's just a bunch of fancy little stuff that detects noises that are supposed to be gunshots, right? So any loud popping or being sound, know, could could potentially set them off. Yeah, and unfortunately as anyone who's ever been in a city and had a car backfire nose, people are. Just indescribably dog shit at telling what is a gunshot and what is not a gunshot. Exactly. Exactly and I mean.

Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, there's so much evidence to like other than, I mean, our here in Chicago, like our office of the Inspector General wrote like a whole report about all of shots, but our failures, but there's a bunch of other research out there across the country about how inaccurate this is. And you know, it's generating tens of thousands of also unjustified CPD deployments. Like, because when the alert goes off, the cops get deployed. And, you know, it doesn't tell you anything about even if there was a gunshot, like who fired a gun, you know, all it's telling you is in this area, you know, this was determined. So you can imagine like all of these, you know, police encounters happening in response to these alerts, like all the shit that could go

wrong. Yeah, and it's CPD, right? Like the Chicago police department's motto was shoot first, don't ask questions later. So, right. This. So, this is an absolutely terrible idea. It's just sending all of these cops on random wild goose chases. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's what happened with, I mean, most people probably remember the Adam Salido shooting, those cops, you know, were initially assigned to patrol that area know, we're initially assigned to patrol that area because it was designated as a violence box, you know. And shots butter brought them to the alley, like where this 13 year old kid was, you know, shot and killed by police because another and older man was with him

and fired a gun and then handed him the weapon. Yeah, and that's another one of the problems with this technology, which is that even if it does detect a gunshot, the thing that detecting a gunshot does in Senate to the police is send a bunch of like absolutely unhinged murderers to a place and like make them incredibly paranoid and then you know have them in like deal with the situation mode and what Chicago cops do when they're in deal with the situation mode is they take out a gun they shoot a 13 year old and kill them. Yeah yeah and the you know the officer that shot him too had had this was like rarely talked about in the media.

I think, I don't know. It just wasn't something that came up much when that was all happening, but like, that officer had a weird incident that was reported on body cam, like a little bit before he shot and killed down Toledo. I don't remember if it was like months before, I don't know the timeline,

but it was fairly close to that, where he like pulled someone over at a traffic stop and was was acting really jumpy and strange. And it was kind of investigated as, you know, an unjustified traffic stop. And nothing happened with that, but it's just an example of how there were potentially warning signs, because this guy was also like a war veteran, you know, and jumpy to begin with. And so, yeah, you're sending these guys into these areas

who are already ready to go off at a trigger rate. Yeah, and, you know, and there's like, there's no actual good outcome of this because like, I guess arguably the best possible outcome is the cop show up. There's nobody there and turns out to have been a false alarm, but that means we're paying the cops an unbelievable amount of money to do nothing. And that's the best outcome. Right. And the way the alerts work also too is like unless the police file a complaint that an alert was false, like a false alarm, it's automatically flagged in the system as like a positive.

Because there's all this algorithmic stuff that happens like with the shot-flutter detection, where like, yeah, the system detects it, but then also it goes to like there, I don't know, their whole system, like researchers or whatever to kind of put it all together and like package a report about what happened. And so unless the police complain and are like, oh, you know, this one was false or this was a, this one was wrong. This was a firework, this was a car back firing. And of course,

like, CPD is not doing that. Yeah, because I mean, I mean, this is one of the problems with the system, just inherently, even if even if you think that on some level, this I mean, this is one of the problems with the system, just inherently, even if even if you think That on some level this technology could work is that both the company shots butter and the police have an enormous inheritance incentive to Make like a very least pretend that every single one of these detections is real because if you're a police officer, right? And you can point it. Oh, hey, look at how many shots are being fired around the city all the time You know, you need to give us more funding. This is incredibly useful for them. If you're shots, but you don't want everyone to know that your system detects like a bird dropping an a corn out of a tree next to your sensor or whatever, like you don't

actually want people to know that your your system brings up false positives all the time. And it's actually basically completely useless. Right. Yeah. And so the incentive structure all the time. It is actually basically completely useless. Right. Yeah, so the incentive structure is just bad. It's just, it's only going to produce bad results. Yeah, well, and it's kind of like somebody, I don't, I forget where I read this, but somebody likened it to,

if you have an informant working for you and they were wrong nine times out of 10, would you still use them? Well, CBD would, like, to be fair. But like if you were a journalist and you had a source that lied nine times ten, you know, or was wrong nine times out of ten, would you, would you call them back? Would you trust that source? You know, well, and the other thing too is, this isn't even, it's not even just like this is an informant, right? Because, you know, shots, butters, well, and the other thing too is this isn't even it's not even just like this is an informant right because you know

Shotspotters wrong and annoying percentage of the time But a thing is you don't have to pay informants eight million dollars a year, which is what we're paying for Dog shit shots fire system. Yeah, well, and I Mean the company itself also like they're so embedded with what's going on, with police departments. Their shot spotter is leveraging their own money to try to win police contracts that include shot spotter. They advise different police departments on how to respond to requests about shots water. So it's like, it's not just

like this, this, I don't know, this neutral tool that's just like out there that they're just using. It's like, shot far has a vested interest in strengthening the police and vice versa. Yeah. And it gets into one of these very, very, I mean, it's a very common thing for the cops, right? But one of these unbelievably messed up spirals, we these very, very, I mean, it's a very common thing for the cops, right? But one of these unbelievably messed up spirals were like, yeah, like everyone involved has, you know, the cops want more power. These guys want more money and the more money you give them, the more money they have to

then turn around again and put back into the political system, which can you buy more power, which they can again turn into more money every single time another contract comes up. Right. Right. And which they just did Brandon Johnson just gave him more money in their contract. Yeah. And we should talk about this because, okay. So Brandon Johnson ran a weird campaign in respect to the police in the sense that he

didn't really run a... He didn't run in anti-police campaign, I guess. Like his campaign was pretty pro police, but it also originally had things like taking cops out of schools. And very specifically, he ran on canceling the shot spotter contract, which is a thing that everyone in like people in Chicago who aren't, who don't live in like cop neighborhoods, basically. Like it's pretty popular to cancel this contract because it's it's millions of dollars a year going to nonsense that just throws cops everywhere. And then he got into office and his budget still has the shotspotter shit in it. So

electoralism win. Yay. Yeah, I mean, it was an explicit campaign promise. Like, it wasn't just like, oh, we were hoping that he would do this because he's like our big movement guy. It was like he explicitly made it part of his platform was ending the contract to Schatz Butter. And now he is not. And there's some time left before the budget hearing. I think it's like, I don't know, like 55 days, I might be off by a few days there.

But there's only around two months left. And since he's been elected, so the other thing, I mean, this is like the shady part too, like since he's been elected, he's been asked whether he'll extend the contract and he's just like refused to answer. Which is a really great politician stuff. Like you know, you know that your politicians being completely normal and nothing, everything

is above board when they just straight up refuse to answer questions. Only good things ever result from that. Yeah. good things ever result from that. Yeah, and it's been, there's been like a lot of similar sort of just like, I don't know, lack of transparency kind of incidents with him over the last however long a sense he's been elected, God has been a long year. It's kind of like there's this pattern now. So, has been a long year. It's kind of like there's this pattern now. So yeah, I mean, there were people who kind of look, he was never like the abolitionist like I'm going to abolish the police mayor and like I get that. I think a lot of people get that. But there's a pretty big departure kind of between how

he's approaching policing and what, yeah, a lot of movement people or leftists or abolitionists want, you know, every encounter with a cop is a potential for violence, right? And he's coming out at more from the side of like, well, we just need to rebuild trust in the police. And the community just needs to, you know, like, we're just going to rebuild trust. And we're going to, we're going to get these bad cops out. We're going to have only good cops left. And then everything, I don't, I don't know what the logic there is personally, but the logic is that we'll just have good police encounters then.

And it's just like this refusal to acknowledge that policing itself is a problem. Yeah, I mean, we are on year 50 of the mayor says we need to restore trust in the police. I won't get rid of the bad cops, everything. Like year 50, we are on, what number of torture scandals are we on since people first started saying this? Like, it's just, Right, we shouldn't be laughing at torture, but it's like, yeah, it's like every,

I don't know, every month, there is a new Chicago police scandal. I literally cannot keep track. Yeah, and okay, so we're gonna talk about one of those scandals, but first, we're gonna talk about ads. I was gonna do it like a you know what else is a scandal, but I don't know. It's really late in outrageous number of hours and we are back So okay speaking of

Chicago police scandals There's a lot. I mean This EPD is always having scandals because Chicago cops are just evil But yeah, do you want to talk about the specific shots bottom one that we're having right now? Yeah, I mean There there are other Chicago police shots bodies candles but no the most this most recent story you know that just came out there's a political journalism site slash blog there also are homies we don't want to work with them called people fabric and they wrote you know an

analysis of some videos that they obtained of what is essentially a CPD gang. I mean, everybody's heard of the LAPD gangs, we're not everybody, but I'm sure a lot of listeners have followed the story out of L.A. with the sheriff's deputy's gangs, just roaming around and committing horrible acts against people in these sort of like crews of bad cops. And this is definitely not the first instance of something like that happening in Chicago, but there was a lot of video evidence against these guys. One of them has been indicted. I don't know if the other three have,

but yeah, they were just driving around basically terrorizing this community, a lot of just unlawful stops, stopping people on the street, shaking them down for cash, drugs, and a lot of guns. They were filing false reports about found guns, so they would stop somebody who took gun and then log it as a gun that was found. And in one instance, they said that they were a mile away from where a shot spotter alert had gone on. And the claims that they looked around

and just happened to find a gun on the ground. They had taken the gun from a woman. They didn't find it on the ground. But they were able to use the fact that there was a shot spotter alert that went off in that area as like a way to cover their tracks, basically. Yeah, and this is something, so we talked about on this show, like,

oh God, was that like two years ago? How many years ago? A while back, we talked about on this show, the Chicago's, used to have this police unit called Special Operations session, SOS, which was to expand it after it was revealed. They were doing literally the same thing, which is they would go up to people to rob them.

Right. And one of, Chicago has one of these scandals about once, like once a decade, there's like a big one of these. And we're kind of due for one, we haven't had a really big one of these scandals about once a decade, there's a big one of these. We're kind of due for one. We haven't had a really big one of these specifically. There's an entire section of the CPD that's just a burglary or a drug ring. I suspect we're going to find out more about this stuff because it's about time that

another one of these turns up. But yeah, I mean, they're just like, just rolling up on people, just going, give me your gun and then drive it away and say, don't tell anyone, which is really... Really? Yeah, well, I'm like also for seemingly no reason in like some instances, like there, I mean, look, we can also for seemingly no reason in some instances.

I mean, look, we can't know all of their motivations for everything and a lot more is going to come out. I'm sure in the court proceedings, but it's like, were they trying to add the gun retrieval statistics? And, or were they trying to do something else? You know, they were like a tactical team. So I presume, I mean, I think it's the case that like there are certain gun retrieval

statistics that CPD wants to make. But, you know, the other stuff like obviously taking cash from people, you know, like there's other things they were doing, you know, and there's always been, look, there have, I'm not going to allege anything that isn't proven in the specific instance, but I will say that there have always been rumors about Chicago police officers specifically taking things like guns to sell back to gangs, basically, in same with drugs, right? These guys were logging some of them at least, but what if there were

ones that they weren't logging? Like, we don't know. I mean, this is just what we know happened and what was caught. And I mean, they were dumb enough to like have some of this caught on their body cams. It's like, they were turning the cameras off for like some parts of these stops, but like not others. Or like, the camera would be on parts of these stops, but not others. The camera would be on and there's like, you know, cash and drugs and then like, oh, the camera goes off. And it's like, well, a biological person can deduce what may have happened here, like why are you turning your camera off, right?

And so yeah, there's always on rumors about kind of like what these crews driving around are like ultimately doing with this kind of stuff And I think it just it varies depending on them But I would also add you know the what you mentioned the special operations section, you know We only recently learned through like a sometimes investigation into all the Chicago cops who were on the Oath Keepers membership role. And a number of those guys were in SOS actually. So that's a fun little fact also. Yeah, that's another one of the another episode in the endless parade of

of two Huggle police department scandals like yeah a bunch of these are in far-right militias. of two-hugge police departments scandals, like yeah, a bunch of these are in far-right militias, which is this really interesting. So we did an episode pretty recently that was talking about David Graber. One of the points that he makes in this essay on Batman and the problem of constituent power, which is a wild thing to be citing in a police thing,

but one of the points that he makes is one of the sort of key, like fascist convergences is this cooperation between the police, the far right and organized crime. And the CPD is this incredible nexus of it, right? I mean, you, it's literally the same person is all three of these things at the same time. It is a cop who is in a far-right militia, who is also like literally just doing organized crime at the same time.

That's really. Yeah. You use the half to sort of like make metaphors and you no longer have to do that. The metaphor just is real. You're just physically describing the event really something. Yeah i mean i i i i when you when you really think about it i think. Policing in and of itself is just like a cult like anything else.

And it makes sense that like the same people who gravitate towards like. people who would gravitate towards like militia groups and like white supremacist groups any any like I don't know group or people kind of have those like hardline beliefs about the world and then it's also just like a lot of these guys are like especially the ones on like tactical teams they're all like fucking like traumatized war veterans. You know, they all have kind of these long back stories of like a military service and just like to get onto like special ops or like the tactile unit, you know, et cetera, they tend to look for people with military experience, not always, but like frequently.

Um, and so there's also that intersection. There are two of like militarism and abroad and then like policing at home, right? Yeah, and that's a really common thread. I mean, just across the entire world, this is a thing where like the police groups are the most likely to go completely rogue and either just start murdering people randomly or turn into organized crime things. Like, are these special operations units? There was like in 2020, they were these huge protests, like anti-police protests in Nigeria

that were specifically about trying to get one of these special operations, like police special operation things. I, like abolished because the special operations guys just kept shooting everyone. And this, you know, like every single, like this happens just everywhere in the world. That these, it is like, you know, I mean, obviously normal cops also do crime. And we talked also in another episode about some kind of normal cops. You did a cartel in like the, the 2010s. But the, the special operations groups go off the rails at a rate that is staggering, which you would think, you would think someone in government

would look at this, like even if you're a pro police person, you would look at this and go, wait, maybe it's a bad idea to have specifically foreign these units at every single time turning to a cartel, but no, no, I never do this because the point of cops is not to not form cartels. Well, I think also too, there's like a very, I don't know, I guess neoliberal sort of line of thinking about like policing and how like we really, really need like the tactical high skill kind of units, right? Like, there's always like we're giving the cop, we're always giving the cops more money and that's for training. Training is a big justification for why we're always carrying the cops more money and that's for training training is a big

justification for why we're always giving you the more money, but so is like you know skills and sort of technology and like I think As we're dealing with I don't know like mass shootings and like all this really horrible stuff Just like going on around us at all times to now. It's like it's a really I think just like going on around us at all times too now. It's like, it's a really, I think, easy way to justify policing to people is like, honor the guys of these like, tactical units or units with like, a lot of firepower to deal with like,

the really, really bad guys, quote, right? Like, you know, maybe those people might be like, oh, we've like fewer cops, the polling our neighborhoods, you know, we're kinda, we get like, you know, Black those people might be like, oh, we've like fewer cops to pulling our neighborhoods, you know, we're kind of, we get like, you know, Black Lives Matter, whatever, but they're like, but we really need to, you know, have the big guns ready for when something die comes to our neighborhood.

And so I think that's also like a sticking point for a lot of people on the way to like actually thinking about abolishing the police too, is like, what would we do without these units? Some guys with all these skills and all these crazy weapons to help us if a bad guy comes. And of course, the bad guys are those guys. Well, there's the more cynical side of it too, which is like, if you're the mayor of Chicago, it's like, well, someone has to shoot the black panthers, right? Like, you need to have guys whose job it is to, like, when, you know, when, like, Revolutionary Movements start up, you need, like, someone has to start shooting those guys.

So, I want to go back to talk a bit more about the, like, shop spotter and the budget stuff that's been happening because so the current budget has, what is it? I think it like doubles the, the annual raises of that that cops were getting. Is that the right number? I don't know if it doubles, but I read that it was actually wait. Yeah, so it's 5% up from like 2.5. Yeah, it's double. It's all the largest package of raises for any city employee union in modern history. I mean, I'm directly quoting the employee union in modern history. I mean, I'm directly quoting about our government analysis, but yeah, no, like literally it is an enormous,

it is an enormous, and here's the thing, the cops were thrilled with this contract. The head of F.O.P. John Cavazzara, who is just like a racist, misogynistic horrible, just like garbage dump of a person, you know, was thrilled with this contract, was thrilled with this being passed, you know. And that's like number one sign that your mayor sucks is when like the cops are thrilled about something he did.

So, so yeah, I mean, it's a huge amount of money there's there's a bunch of other stuff in it like you know salary grade changes and like stipends for stuff and bonuses and uh... the changes to like the bodyborne camera policy to which are kind of concerning uh... but but ultimately it's like you get branded johnson is now the fund, the police mayor. Like, I don't know how you can say that he's not when you, when you look at this, like this is just handing the cops more money.

Yeah. And Chicago cops are already just unbelievably dogs should overpaid. Chicago teachers are unbelievably underpaid. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, we are, we are once again paying a bunch of people to rob us. It's really, it's good stuff. Yeah, and they get a lot of time off too. I mean, look, they have a ton of benefits. There's a ton of privileges and things that the cops get. But it's kind of like,

he could have given them slightly less money. Like it was almost, this contract almost feels like, the way I've seen some people describe it is it almost feels like an act of like goodwill towards the cops, like an almost like, I'm giving you this thing that you really want in the hopes of like, I don't know. I don't know what you're trying to get out of it.

I mean, I don't know what the motivation is, but it's like, you could have done less, and you're going for like a lot. So what's the deal there? And, you know, the new superintendent, too, is like hugely concerning. He picked a guy who's like an expert in surveilling communities ahead of like the DNC coming next summer.

The former head of the counter-terrorism bureau, you know, like it's just, it's a lot of really disappointing moves. And I think a lot of people were really hoping to see, I guess, a more abolitionist country. But ultimately, it's like he ran as a liberal. Like we knew this was coming, but there was like almost like taking advantage, I guess, of like movement groups to sort of get the power behind him during the campaign.

But our alternative was also like an evil like lying in the nionicle, Paul Valleis. So it's just like a shit sandwich. It's like bad choices all around, right? Yeah, and I mean, it's like bad choices all around, right? Yeah. And I mean, that just is Chicago. I mean, it's Illinois. It's electoral politics in general is a choice between the guy he gives the police more money and the other guy who gives the police more money. So it's not good. Exactly.

Again, it really seems like we're going to get more shots bottom of this technology that is wrong over 90% of the time. So it's great. It's really. Well, there's a few months left. I mean, hopefully, look, hopefully, this is, I don't know, there's arguments to be made for and against harm reduction, I guess,

and whether it's like a worthwhile goal, but maybe there's still like a shot at like at least getting this part scratched out. I mean, there is like I said, like this big lawsuit. And if nothing else, you know, perhaps he and his administration could be concerned about just like, you know, the bad press around it, if it's included and so many people are opposing it. But this is also an administration that like didn't care about the bad press that came with like saying we're building a detention camp on polluted land. So yeah, well, look, look, like this is this is this is the the thing that the fight over the police budget is distracting from, which is that we need to find a second toxic waste dump to build the migrant concentration

cap on. So progressive, progressive values are happening either way. Look, I frequently said all mayors are bastards. It's true. Corny, but I think you just, it's fine. Look, it's fine to vote, I guess, if that is your thing. Just don't convince yourself that once you leave the voting booth, that like the struggle is over, because whatever happens, like this person, this authority figure in charge is your enemy.

It doesn't matter how nice he is, it doesn't matter how many jokes you crack. Whatever you're trying to resist or liberate, this person is going to stand in your way, just like virtue of being the mayor. It's baked into what that is. So I think it's just a matter of being like, clear-eyed about that rather than like convincing yourself that you can somehow like co-run the city like with the government.

Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna take a shot at a city on the other side of the world, but fuck it, I'm still mad about this. Okay. So the, the, the nominal best case scenario for this inside an electoral framework was when Barcelona and Camus, which is this sort of left wing platform in Barcelona made a bunch of ex anarchists, I like men and shit get managed to get a, a, a, a, a semi-sable majority of the city council and then the first time they got their mayor elected. The first thing that that fucking mayor did,

like a week into office was she knew where all the squots were in Barcelona and the first thing she fucking did was she knew which immigrant squat didn't have enough community support behind them to stop them from getting evicted and she had them evicted. So you know, this is what happens when you put activists in charge. They do a more efficient job of being the kind of insurgency. So oh my gosh.

Yeah, this is what you're getting into. Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, and I mean, then it also becomes like its own smoke screen, you know, like just using the fact that like, oh, I was elected by activists or like I was elected by movement people. So like, you know, I'm on your side and just using it as like a shield against like every move and being like, well, I know this looks bad, but like you guys know, like I'm your guy, like I'm one of you. Like, like, just trust me. Like, we're you guys know, I'm your guy. Like I'm one of you. Like, just trust me.

Like, we're doing this for the right reasons. And I look bad, but because I'm your guy, you know, it's okay. I mean, it's the same thing with like, again, Biden and the border wall now. I think ironically our episode on that is going to be the episode that comes out right before this. So, I'm sorry, sorry, two episodes, sorry, it'll be two episodes before. Yeah. Oh, and two episodes after. Well, it's also going to be border wall shit. So, yeah, border wall, bad. Fuck Biden for border wall. But it's like, it's bright as border wall. He's doing all this shit. And then, you know, it's just if it was Trump, we know

what the response would be from supposed progressives. Yeah, don't let people like put a coat of paint on a turd and hand it to you and be like, no, it's good actually. We don't have to do this. Right. But I mean also the border wall. Do you remember there was a brief flash of time in October when Brandon Johnson and his team announced they were going to visit the border wall? And then it only lasted 24 hours, 72 hours. I don't know when, but at some point, then they like very quickly reversed the decision

when they realized like how bad that would look. As we have like at that time, there were thousands of people in police, like thousands of migrants who had traveled here and staying on police station floors. And there was like, they were gonna have this publicity someone went to the border wall. who had traveled here and staying on police station for us. And they were like, they were gonna have this publicity if that wasn't for a while.

And then they changed their minds about it. And they were like, oh yeah, this is probably about idea. But it's become this like pilgrimage site. I mean, like I know AOC went there. It's like liberal politicians like go there to be like, oh, this is so terrible. And then they like, you know,

just kind of let Biden make it worse. Yeah. So this has turned into the liberal groups elected on big promises, make your life worse episode. Well, this has been make it after here. You could find us in the places where can people find you? Just, you know, on the Hell site, which I know you're back on now.

Unfortunately. Unfortunately. Yeah, you know, we have drinks, press that work, a press site, and then, yeah, Twitter, Instagram, all that stuff. Yeah, so go check out the drinks, press people, they do great work, and yeah, cops bad. Cops bad, cops always bad, cops keep being bad.

Hillary Burton Morgan here, and I am excited to share with you a new series I'm launching, a companion podcast, to my passion project, Sundance TV's True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. Now on the show, we focus on small towns and the crimes that can rip them apart. The cases we've covered have confused me, and they have made me deeply question our judicial system. What got me so excited about doing this podcast

is that we have more time to really dig in. So you're gonna hear more information on these cases as well as never before heard interviews, and you'll get to go behind the scenes with me and the team and learn what it's like to make a show like this. Come join us as we get curious and get involved. Listen to true crime story. It couldn't happen here on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world-changing figure. That night he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea. What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy. I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social, emotional networks. When I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They had Kansas spray paint, and they're just putting big axes on machines, and it's almost like kids playing on the playground, just choose them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it, getting the bars, done an excuse being a total f***. But I want the reader to see it in action. My name is Evan Ratliffe, and this is On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four-part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius.

Listen to On Musk on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in to the new podcast, stories from the village of nothing much, like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Katherine Nicolai,

and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, nothing much happens. I'm an architect of Kozy cozy and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches were quite fly, and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and

they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, it's James and today I've got a two-part episode for you. Initially I'd planned to have my friend Emmett and Dave talk to me about the shelters that we've all been building in Hacumba because of weather's getting worse and worse. But we're able to connect with Amos, who is one of the migrants who has spent time in outdoor detention sadly and then in indoor

detention as you're here. And I really wanted to sort of refocus episode on sharing Amos's story because I think, as I've said countless times, right, that if we don't send to migrants and are reporting about migration, then we're doing it wrong. And so you will hear introductions from Dave and you will hear introductions from Emmett and you'll hear a little bit from them next episode about how we're building the yachts. But we'll bring you that episode another time because I wanted this episode to be mostly about Emerson's migration journey. Hello everybody it me, James. I am hosting it could happen here today again. And I'm joined by my friends, Amos and Emmett, and potentially later our friend, David.

We're going to talk today again about the situation in Hila Conver. Amos is one of the people who was detained in the outdoor detention sites and is going to explain some of his experience. And then Emmett is someone who has been working with a group of people, including myself, to build shelters for migrants, to build slightly more permanent, slightly more improved shelters. Unfortunately, Border Patrol has taken upon themselves to instruct migrants to destroy their shelters. And so we're going to talk

about how we built them, what we learn when we're building them, and unfortunately, the fact that they have been destroyed. So I'm going to ask my three guests to introduce themselves. David is here now, so we'll start with you, Amos, and then, Emmett and then David, just tell us who you are and anything you think is relevant about yourselves, I guess. Thank you for the invite. I appreciate the opportunity to add whatever I can to this very, very important subject.

I happen to be, I call myself an accidental, illegal immigrant if you wanna put it that way. For due to some family circumstances, I found myself following the new migratory road that has taken me through a lost count of 10 close countries starting from North Africa all the way to the border with the United States. So that's me and I'd like to add to this conversation. Thank you, Ramos. Hi, my name is Emmett. I am a volunteer with Borderlands Relief Collective. And then David, would you like to finish up by producing yourself? Hi, my name is David. I'm a volunteer with Borderlands Relief Collective,

as well as Detention Resistance. I do water drops, and I've also been helping out as a volunteer in the Border Patrol Openair Detention sites, doing work as a medic and helping out building these shelters. Great, yeah, thank you so much everyone. So I think everyone will be interested in hearing Amos's story. So as far as your comfortable sharing Amos, and there's no need to share anything that you're not comfortable with or don't want to share, can you tell us about your journey from North Africa to United States? And I think we've been particularly interested in I don't want to share. Can you tell us about your journey from North Africa to United States? And I think we'd be particularly interested in like,

how people are finding out about these, obviously these big gaps in the wall that are in Hukumbar and how people are ending up there from all over the world now. Right, well, Buckellopp has a long journey, James, it's a long journey, James, it's a long one. So for me personally, it started with a sort of an accidental separation from my family, my wife and kids for the reasons, the unfortunate reasons had to go had to go back to the United States.

And I was delighted to join them. They went for initially to mourn the loss of a brother-in-law, I mean a brother-in-law. And unfortunately, I wasn't able to get there by obtaining a visa to do so. So I spent six, seven months arguing with the embassy, was not given any legal reasoning for why my visa was denied. I've lived in the United States for over 16 years. I've had a clean, clean record with one arrest and release and it was part of a protest that really had been happening in Los Angeles and we were released right away. And basically,

I left in 2015 with I'd like to thank the clean hands and no issues. And then we go back to Tunisia, where I was, with my new family. Anyhow, so basically I was denied visa. I really wanted to do, I've never done anything illegal in my life. I wanted to do the legal route. They're following what's been always told, they follow their legal route, don't come illegally. So that was not even a question in my mind, you know,

the wife is American, the kids are American, I mean, it shouldn't be an issue. But I really was confronted with, I mean, I can safely say by now it's the bias, it's gotta be some racism just by deduction really, because when you run out of reasoning, you have to start making this sad and you know sad conclusions. So yeah, so basically, you know, again, that that was, that took me on a long and painful depression, an anxiety and a cocktail of mental health issues

that I'm still actually dealing with right now. And I took my kids, my two kids, my beautiful kids through therapy and they're still going through therapy. My wife is going through therapy, I'm going through therapy. It blew apart this family. We're still trying to figure out why so much, nothing could define it, but hey, really, there is no other way of putting it. So, and again, I just, the discussion with my friends in America has been very difficult because they

have no understanding or concept of what the diplomatic war is doing and what is the these embassies are doing because there is no access to them by Americans, it's just usually foreigners who do and that really creates this black hole of tax money going to these embassies and then what they're doing is just with a stroke of a pen, yes or no, no explanation. You can't sue, you can't appeal, you can't do, it's absolute power. And then, you know, I'm mentioning this that the embassies, because through my journey, through this long and painful journey, I've met time and time again, other fellow immigrants who, again, tried to go through the legal route, were denied with no reason, with no written reason,

no valid reason. So, again, this discussion, on and off again, among American citizens, as to why people are showing up in the border. Well, I mean, at least in part, what I see is no accountability whatsoever to the embassies. Like, time and time again, you have these embassies denying people who are trying to do with the right way, trying to do with they either have family or work or whatever. And they're denied time and time again, and And you have, you know, in the hundreds of thousands going through that process. And of course, they try, they try.

And then eventually they have no choice. So I'm not saying this is the only explanation, but it's a big part of it. I've just spoken for people who are crossing and who are on the way from anywhere from Brazil to Colombia, to Ecuador, to to Panama to Nicaragua to Guatemala to Belize and Mexico all all across I've come across so many people and they you know at least I mean my little humble math I would say 50 to 60 percent have tried through embassies

math, I would say 50 to 60 percent have tried through embassies, but unfortunately, you know, they just turned down. So this is an issue that is not talked about, this is an issue. They really get away with Scott Fried. I mean, they read, there's zero account, I mean, there are gods. I mean, the ambassador have zero accountability. I mean, he is absolutely, he has all the power and no accountability. I mean, he is absolutely, he has all the power and no accountability. I mean, rarely you see Ambassador being recalled by Congress. Rarely you see an Ambassador being questioned, hey, why are these demands being declined? What are you doing about it, all that stuff? So this is some of the stuff I want to add to the conversation because nobody has ever mentioned this.

Nobody talks about this. Yeah. So, yeah. It's very important. I think your experience is far from unique, as you've said, right? I have seen hundreds of people carrying visa rejection letters come across the Southern border.

They've shown them to me, right? They are people who have been victims of some of the worst things that can happen to human beings, and they've survived them. And we've still refused to give these people a safe place so they've had to take their journey in a more dangerous way. I mean, I didn't see a single brown person in the embassy.

It's all right. Again, I hope you guys don't feel like I'm being honest because I see it and I'm up to date on what people are talking about and all the discussions and I see it almost of a level of a right-wing supremacy style, you feel it, you feel it, you feel it, you have to be a co-located brown person or a minority person to feel it. I don't expect others to understand it, but we feel it. And this is a discussion I've had in detention with a lot of fellow detainees. There is that sense, there is a sense that you know we've been looked down at not on our merits

But on you know a little bit of you know assumptions because of what you're from assumptions like you go in and it's already baked It's already baked. It's already and this is me. I've had a visa from the west for 16 years. I mean, it should be a slam dunk you know, so my two kids are American by what my wife is American We are until today are so confused as to why the denials happen You know, so my two kids are American. My wife is American. We are until today are so confused as to why the denials happen. I mean, I've called Congress members and David was with me today

when I was at the Congress members shift, Adam Schiff in Burbank, California. And we, you know, even they don't have an answer as to why the denials happen. And then, you know, I. And to close my personal issue, James, it's interesting because I was told that perhaps you were illegally in the United States between 2013 and 2015, but they can't say for sure that was the reason. But in detention, when they did all the research on me, none of that existed.

None of that. There is none of that. They released me because they have nothing against me. Nothing. And this is the USCIS. This is the immigration service. Meet the embassy coming up with some of these bogus ideas. So again, it's a mess.

And I feel like these embass, this, this, this, these embassies need to be looking to more because the border patrol ends up feeling the blunt of of all this, but where does it start? Where is the source? It's always a question of where is the source? Where the source is? Yes, there's economic issues, there is, there is, there is, is yes, there's economic issues, there is physical abuse, there's all kind of stuff. But then also, there's tax dollars being spent in the billions, in the billions, hundreds of billions on these diplomatic cores. I mean, to be fair, my journey was not as difficult as many, many, many, many stories that I've heard, art form, I mean, really heartbreaking stories.

My journey really, you know, I'm somewhat of a sophisticated life in a sense that I spent a lot of time. Again, most of the time that we wasted was waiting on the embassy because they kept on dragging and dragging their feet, six, seven months waiting while my kids are crying on the phone and you know, we don't have the income to be able to have them come back to Tunisia, what I was. So, you know, so yeah, it started by researching, research and reading a lot of articles researching as far as North Africa, the route that is being used right now, by a lot of Mauritanyans and West Africans, they go through Turkey.

And then from Turkey, they're going to Nicaragua because Nicaragua, Managua, the capital of Nicaragua, they have allowed for visa on arrival. And then from Managua, there is literally almost like travel companies doing packaging, packages for upwards to $67,000 from there to... And then $67,000 from Nicaragua, but before Nicaragua, there's at least $3,000, $4,000. So I'm told by...

I think, yeah, there's four Mauritanians that were detained, I'm told about $10,000, which comes down to their local currency, about 45,000 of their local currency, which is a lot, I mean, a lot. So they, so like I said, so they managed to get the flights to Nicaragua. Managua has been on our arrival for 30 days for North Africans. And then from there you got literally the journey through, I don't know, coyotes, whatever you want to call them, facilitators, whatever, well established with buses through El Salvador, through Honduras, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and then through Mexico. So that's the route that's been upwards of six,

7,000 more attendees and West Africans as far as the last articles that I've read have taken that route. So I looked into it, I couldn't afford it, to be honest with you. It's just that I was sending money to my kids and wife because she had to be on welfare, she just arrived there and she had to give the kids a school and there's a lot of struggle, so I had to kind of try to help with that. On the same time, I was waiting on the

embassy and the wife was calling them to see if can we expedite, can we do this, can we do this, but they were literally rude and treated her like a second-class citizen. I don't know why. We still can't figure that out. Anyhow, so another route right now, which is a difficult route, is through Brazil, because Brazil has, I don't know if you guys know, and I think they do that for Americans too. Yeah, so Brazil has sort of, I don't know the word, but equivalency, that means if you

impose a visa on Brazil, Brazilians will impose a visa on you. They do that to Americans too. So, you know, when I'm from, they don't have a visa as far as for Brazil, so we don't, so a lot of Africans can go to Brazil and from Brazil take the route all the way. So, David mentioned the Amazon straight where they cross the jungle from Colombia to Panama and so on and so forth. That is... Darien, right? Yes, the famous Darien drags. That is to me personally.

Oh, man, it gives me chills because the two or three guys that one of them did it on his own with Google Maps, man. I don't know. How the hell he did it, I have no clue how he did it. I was listening and trying to understand them, it was just heartbreaking, you know, the suffering. So, but yeah, through Brazil and then Colombia and then people are going that way, that's another route. For me, again, I booked flights, I didn't go through that trouble to be fair, but I've had some issues with visas because North Africa is don't get a lot of visa access around that Latin America. We don't have a lot of embassies there. We don't have a lot of trade. We don't have a lot of commerce between our countries. So it's kind of an unknown commodity in a sense that everything is new.

For me, I was able to get a visa to Colombia. I'm very grateful to choose Colombia because it's affordable, it's been a good experience for myself to get out of, let me get closer and on the same time, figure out the lay of the land and understand where I'm going. So I'm grateful for that. And from there, my goal was to get a visa to Mexico. And most of my American friends are still confused as to why I would need a Mexican visa. That's a whole other discussion. And then the Mexican visa has become extremely difficult, almost as difficult as the American visa because of pressure from the United States to stop the flow.

So again, we end up making it very difficult for people who want to legitimately do this. So finding an appointment for a Mexican embassy, then you find out which embassy of Mexico has, of course, was available. Some of them don't have ever. Some of them have them two years from now. Some of them have them, you know, for a particular visa, but not the other. Anyhow, so for me, it was Colombia, and then I found an appointment for a Mexican visa and Belize, but unfortunately I ended up in

going from Colombia to Panama to Nicaragua to Guatemala and then Belize because Belize has not a lot of flights from Latin America. And then when I got to Guatemala, all the previous countries allowed me to transit without a problem. But Guatemala decided to put me in a detention for almost 40 hours. And then wanted to return me back to original country. Because they, yeah, so I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm, my plane departs in a few hours and going to believe why are you doing this, please, I'm

not only the visa to Guatemala, I'm not going to Guatemala, nothing, no discussion, just the through me in there, cockroaches, you know, you know, the whole in Shalada, I mean, no food, no water, no nothing, I mean, you know, it's just sad, very sad, very sad, very sad, that was the really bad is it. And then so I was sent back to Panama, then from Panama to Colombia, and then Colombia, that was gonna send me back to North Africa. So it was gonna be a really mess.

So I had to use some of my customer service skills that I've run through the years to wiggle myself where I last minute was able to have some friends by a ticket to like you know in the midnight hour really they were going to send me so I bought a ticket to Ecuador where I had a visa for 90 days so I was able to get out of that mess staying Ecuador for a couple of weeks and then try to get to beliefs again And the next time I was successful and going on to believe through Panama and then Nicaragua then straight to beliefs Avoiding Guatemala and then believes I was there for a couple of weeks

and then I was able to get a visa to Mexico. Thank God and And then I was able to get a visa to Mexico. Thank God. And there was a lot of Russians, there was a lot of Turks, there was a lot of... No, no, no, no, Turks, no. Russians and a lot of European, trying to get a visa there too, for Mexico. And basically, yeah, from there it was the journey of taking a bus from Belize to Cancun, Cancun to Monterey and Monterey to Cabo. I found a job, a volunteering job in Porto Iscondido.

I'm a yoga practitioner, and I found a yoga retreat there to try to help with my mental health and all that stuff. So yeah, so they're doing a great job. It's in the middle of the wilderness. They're really working on natural preservation and in beautiful jobs they're doing a great job. It's in the middle of the wilderness. They're really working on natural preservation and in beautiful jobs they're doing there. And from there, Kabo Salukas, Kabo Salukas, I volunteered at a hotel

to be able to eat and sleep. And then from there, Tijuana and Tijuana, I met someone earlier in Cancun, a Colombian who was all the time I was in Mexico, I was trying to do the app, the CBR1 app. Yeah, and how was your experience with that, because I'm sorry. A pair of words. Absolutely, absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible. I mean, it's just basically useless, it's useless.

And I met people who've been there for two months on the app and it didn't work. Explain to me what didn't work about it. Like, did it lock you out to it? I wish I can send you screenshots that can send you to you, to you can understand. So it tells you, it tells you, you're a, so you sign up, you put your information,

you passport and all that stuff. And then basically what you're doing is you're in the queue and there's like a lottery system where they didn't see how long you've been waiting, how old are you, where you're from. There's like a lottery system that randomly selects people. So, but again, out of a close to 100 people on my detention cell, you know,

room, everybody's saying we all tried and none of them, you know, got an appointment. I mean, everybody wants an appointment. I mean, who's in the right mind would choose to forgo an appointment and go do throughout that trouble. So,. And if we do a little bit of math, eventually at some point I spoke to the supervisor of the Border Patrol Detention Center, and he told me there's 1800 people at any given point in that place. So out of 1800 people, and if myself there was about six cells or something more than that, now much more much more than six thousand and four blocks, I think so on you know, so Yeah, I mean if I'm out of About out of a hundred then you have nobody was able to use the app

Then what's what's what's to tell tell out of the 1800 maybe nine hundred percent? I mean all of them really because if they did have appointment Yeah, if they had appointments, they would have been knocked in there, right? I mean, that's the key, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it's just a flawed system. I was telling my wife yesterday, that's like a lipstick on a pig,

because you know, you're just trying to make a look like it's you're doing something, but it's really, shit, it's really like, there's nothing being done about it. And anyhow, so I'm still dazed and confused. I mean, I'm, you know, trying to understand a situation. So I literally I was the last one to get in. And literally I'm sitting there and I'm standing there at the border itself at the at the wall. And I'm like, what's going on? Where is the border

patrol? Where is the port of entry? Where wall, and I'm like, what's going on? Where is the border patrol? Where is the port of entry? Where is this? I'm like confused. After finding himself unable to make an appointment through CBP1, I must have started to make his way to Okumba, like thousands of other migrants. And I think it's worth pointing out here that nothing that he has done up to this point is breaking any laws, right?

It's not illegal to drive around in Mexico. It's not legal to approach the border from the south. All of this stuff is the legal way to move around. No crime to be committed. It is, of course, legal to cross the border and present yourself for asylum immediately upon doing so, even to cross between ports of entry. It's of the discretion of the administration or the prosecutors to charge for that crossing. But that is a legal means to claim asylum. And so we'll let Amos pick up again here as he takes his first step into the United States.

The first thing I see is I'm pretty sure that there's some Fox News stuff because they were so aggressive camera and a brand new Jeep and they were like, hey, cool, cool, cool, shoot. And then the, you know, ladies and dudes and everybody was running and they were running after them to shoot them with the camera. I mean, I mean, that's what I mean. And you can tell there is malicious intent behind what they're doing. It was not like trying to be sort of neutral or anything.

They would just, you know, so I'm looking for a border patrol. I'm trying to say, hey, I'm finding for asylum. Where are you? What's going on? Nothing. There is nobody. So I'm just walking around with around the world. I call my wife.

I call some friends. I think I had a signal. And then, yeah, I mean, you know, the first world, the pretzelman that I saw, he was pissed off. He said, a few, a few, a few of this, move out of my way, find, cool. I told him whatever I said, if it didn't like, I said, I'm sorry. And then I moved on, and nobody's interested in even to talk. So, and then I moved closer, closer to the crowd. And I don't know if that's when I saw David, but it was almost, almost, almost, yeah. And even when I saw David initially, but then I kept going to have an idea

of the whole camp, camp, and the whole, like, understand what's the dynamics. I saw some national guardsmen. I saw some DSS police, and I saw some border patrolmen. It's like a whole mix of people. And I think, I think there was park rangers, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, there are a lot of rangers, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, a big, a lot of rangers if I'm not, if I'm not rangers.

Yeah, yeah. So a bit of land rangers, yeah. So, so it's a whole huge mix of people. And right away my survivor instincts kind of, you know, I saw David and I saw tools and my eyes opened up because you know, I've worked and I built my farm from scratch in North Africa and I have my farm from scratch in North Africa and

my tools are everything to me. Anyhow, so I'm glad I did see that familiar site and I appreciate that, but you, David and Cesar, you guys were terrific. And yeah, I mean, nobody spoke English, nobody spoke English, nobody. And everybody's been treated like, I mean, I told one border patrolman, I have house, I have sheep, I treat them better the way you treat these guys. I really do. I truly do. And they were, they didn't like that kind of talk, but anyhow. So, yeah, I mean, I got really cold, I mean fairly quickly.

And right away, David and Cesar, thank God, had some tools and we started working on getting some tents up and running. And I mean, they did most of the work really. I was just there helping. So, and it was, it was, dude, my heart was really pain, giving me a lot of pain, because then my mind had my boy and my girl, my mind, and I'm just trying to get to them,

but I've seen these kids, man. That was horrific, man. That was not right. That was not right in that cold. It was just not right. And I'm telling you, I's still in my mind right now. I mean, I'm not gonna let you. It's embedded, you know?

Yeah, it affects all of us. Like I always say, last night, there was a little baby there, and I couldn't sleep coming home, you know, like, and I think. I mean, you know, Jesus, you know, the thing is this. You know, okay, again, I told David, it's not a question of left or right, the question is, so I get it. I spoke to a busher border patrolman. I said, again, I couldn't sleep at night. I basically kept on going after David and Caesar left. I tried to sleep,

I couldn't sleep. I called my kids, they sleep at 840, I ate 30, so I spoke to them, and then they were asleep, and then I got up, and I kept walking around. Some people had a lot of wood, some people didn't have enough wood, so, and some people didn't want me to take some of their wood, I had to go pick up some wood, and try to look, you know, make sure everybody's fire

is up and running. And then, you know, when everybody had the fire and everybody kind of somewhat settled in, I figured, hey, let me talk to these border patrols. I spoke to the first one. He was kind of, you know, not me. Yeah, didn't want to talk, but still said a few things. Yeah.

But then another one, originally from San Diego, cool guy, really cool guy, he gave me the picture. I mean, look, listen, I mean, you know, we're here to work and it's stressful. It's a lot. We're here. We'll try and do the best we can. It's not our fault. And it's not, you know, meaning, you know,

and it told me, listen, you can go back to Tijuana or you can go in the United States or do whatever you want. But if I pick you up outside of this area, you're going straight to deportation. That's about a line. But if you stay here, you'll get to be picked up and processed and you'll have a chance to do file for your asylum.

So again, excellent information with the exception of, even they don't know the process because you don't get to file for asylum in detention. In detention, they release you on your reconnaissance and then later on you file for asylum. Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so, and that's a misconception because everybody is saying, everybody that I spoke to initially said, yeah, you can file for asylum right in here, but it's not true. So, um, but anyhow, so, and then I spoke to a couple of national guardsmen, a couple of kids that were early 20s from New York, from New York. And I mean, just a couple of kids, we started talking about hunting,

we started talking about, you know, fishing and stuff like that. And they were, you know, what do you expect, you know, they're doing their job. And they're human beings doing what humans beings do. So I mean I can absolutely sympathize and understand you know these guys' jobs. My only belief is that do you have to be yes you pissed yes it's a lot of work yes it's frustrating yes it feels like your country is invaded you have blah blah we get all that but is you being mean, rude, or don't write evil? Is that going to change anything?

It's not. These guys went so freaking the Amazon. I mean, at some point I swam with a coconut. I didn't even know the coconut was around. I'm just saying, it's so weird that they're educated and they're informed. Yet they still have that attitude. It's just like, you know what I mean?

It doesn't go anywhere. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't help. And like, like, it doesn't matter what you think about policy, like if there's a baby crying because it has to be held there. No, they get cold. They became cold-hearted and it sucks because again, I spoke to this guy from San Diego,

which I really appreciate his, you know, sort of, you know, he's, he was very forward with me and I appreciate that. Because it probably doesn't get to talk to anybody because nobody speaks English. So, and then the idea is, you know, they're frustrated with the system, they're frustrated with the capacity,

with the position they're put in. Okay, I absolutely sympathize. You cannot go wrong with that. I mean, I mean, it's, yeah, very right to be that way. Again, my beef is, why do you, like, good morning, a few, good afternoon, a few, good night, a few, like, whoa, it's become so sad. It's just like, you know, It's not a lot of work.

It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work.

It's not a lot of work. It's not a lot of work. think they did a freaking amazing job. I was a shock in my system to see the contrast between, I think it's the biggest necessary contrast in that specific place. You need to see the two sides of the American spirit. Right there, you have volunteers saying, F you to the system, and you have vortism and saying, FU to the system. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's a system huge contrast. And that's what really gives hope for, for anything going forward.

So I appreciate it. I don't think David and Caesar really understand how important what they're doing. This extremely important is very valuable. really understand how important what they're doing. This extremely important, it's very valuable. So to me personally, it's just the shock and all, the initial shock, I just went away really quickly because I saw tools that I saw David and I knew what's going on, because I volunteered in shelters in LA,

in Los Angeles. I volunteered at the mission, down at downtown LA, on a schedule, if you heard of a schedule, I volunteered at the mission, down at downtown LA, on a schedule, if you heard of a schedule. I volunteered there. I know very well what homelessness looks like. So I've done Christmas service, I've done food service. Automatically, when I saw David,

I just completely kicked in, and it was a natural thing for me to jump aboard and help. And then, again, I couldn't sleep. Early in the morning, like four or five, I started seeing some border patrolmen coming in. And right away, the Huffman and Puffman starts, you know what I mean, the trawling and all that business. Okay.

And initially, I mean, I, again, I hate to use the word I, but I helped organize the crowd a little bit because they were fighting because the BP was picking up. People that have been there, they're just arrived, they're leaving the people that were there longer. You know, the ones that were, that I stayed with were there for four days.

They didn't get picked up. And so that is a logistical issue and people were just not being organized. So we did a line, a demarcation line. Those were here for three days, they need to be here. Two days, one day, we did that. And then the first board of patrolman that showed up on a G sorry yelling at me. You're doing our job Okay, sorry sorry sorry. I backed up I backed up and minded my business and then another board of patrolman Tossed me hey listen listen. I needed you to do 47 on this side 47 on this side. I need you. Yeah I'm like what's going on here. I mean again. I need to, yeah. I'm like, what's going on here? I mean, again, I dropped my ego. I don't care as long as these guys get a chance to get through because there was a lot of frustration where they're picking up people random and they're picking up living people that have been there

for a long time. You had families that did not want to be separated. You had families that have been there longer and you had, you know, so it's just a huge mismatch of situations. And so, yeah, I mean, eventually on the next day, in the early morning, we did some organizing. And it seemed to me that we were much more fluid than the Border Patrolmen filled up the bus. And it happened to be one of them, one of the people that were picked up. Anyhow, so...

But what a story, what a journey. Right, it's insane, I'm still processing, man. Of course, I mean, that's a huge, dramatic experience. Yeah. It's just like, guess one story and like you said, there are thousands of them. Thousands. Thousands. It's just like guess one story and like you said there are thousands of them Thousands All right, that's what we're gonna cut it off today and we will pick up again tomorrow To hear more about Amos's journey how he's found himself in the United States where he's going and where he is now Thank you so much Hillary Burton Morgan here, and I am excited to share with you a new series I'm launching, a companion podcast to my passion project, Sundance TV's True Crime Story.

It couldn't happen here. Now on the show, we focus on small towns and the crimes that can rip them apart. The cases we've covered have confused me and they have made me deeply question our judicial system. What got me so excited about doing this podcast is that we have more time to really dig in. So you're going to hear more information on these cases as well as never before heard interviews, and you'll get to go behind the scenes with me and the team and learn what it's like to make a show like this.

Come join us as we get curious and get involved. Listen to True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. castes or wherever you get your podcasts. When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world-changing figure. That night he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea. What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy. I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel

for social, emotional networks. And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all. They had Kansas spray paint, and they're just putting big axes on machines. And it's almost like kids playing on the playground, just choose them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it, getting the bars, done

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come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly, and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world.

Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of Nothing Much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I wanted to ask, so what are the people on the callers and that had helped build some of the shelters? As you may not know, there are three camps, maybe David shared this with you.

Similar to the one that you were in, there were three in different locations, some of them are even colder than the one that you stayed in. And volunteers, including myself, including Emma had built shelters. Emma, perhaps you could describe how you sort of decided to do that and it came up with the shelter design that you came up with. Yeah, definitely.

And I just want to say I'm processing also, and most is also hearing your story and appreciating like for all of us coming to build shelters, it's realizing there's all these stories that we are not knowing and all of us are of these lives that are so independent, individual and showing up and meeting folks who've been through whatever they have been and it does stuff to us all. And I think hearing you right now, I'm just really processing what you're saying. I hope many people hear how you're framing all this. I really appreciate how you're framing the story and how you're sharing both your perspective but also what it means to just be confused.

I think for me, I felt so even after many years of working in this space, just so confused by how CBP is treating people in the OAS at least in this desert right now. But basically, it's a winter time now in California. And for the last several months, people have been kept overnight in the desert on the borderlands, which has been brutal and it has been terrible and any humane have first seen the people of the desert. But as it became winter, it became deadly. And the risk of extreme hypothermia events for hundreds of people became so severe that a lot of our day and day out work to make sure people who had food and if there were babies that they were taken care of as a need

or if folks had specific health issues that we could show it for them. But the thought of just doing that and hope, you know, bringing as many blankets as we could, we're bringing blankets and tents and tarps, things keep people off the ground, you know, basically looking in our basements and asking all of our friends like, hey, we're looking behind every gas station for boxes of cardboard or whatever it is. But that just didn't seem enough. It didn't seem like we were actually doing a harm to be the ones who had seen this. And that's something we deal with Israel's. And there's so many folks who

just don't know what's going on. So we're asked to be a community seeing this and not taking to the next level. And it's still I feel this way, but it felt like we were not doing, or we were actually doing it at a harm by not, by not, kind of, addressing the winter as it was happening. So the idea of building shelters was, was to try to, basically do, do something more than just bringing out supplies and letting people, you know, vent for themselves, but creating something that might actually create more of a long-term safety. And then again, I mean, this is, these are detention sites. We are working as volunteers

inside of a, basically, informal detention site that CBP is operating. So it's a very confusing for us to know, you know, we're here trying to be with people directly, trying to see what people are wanting and needing and what is their needs, but we're also kind of navigating around this very erratic system that is sometimes denying us entry to these sites, sometimes trying to have us do things for them, and other times kind of allowing us to be there and, you know, bring food

because it serves them. Serves the UP for us to keep people alive, but that's a really confusing process. So anyways, there was a lot of talk going on about making shelters. And people had been assembling pouts. And one day, I was just talking with some of the other organizers and thinking, well, I'll just do this. I'll come back tomorrow and we'll start.

And so with some volunteers from the Dollar Lunch Club, from UC San Diego, we set out into the campsite we call Tower 177 and started building this and immediately kind of as you're saying, also Amos. We had about a team of 10 people from Colombia and here just on helping us build the shelter from palates, cardboard, plastic sheeting, tarps, and James and myself and some other folks had been talking the night before. What are the different shelters and using all of our outdoor experience, wilderness experience, kind of putting it all

together and having kind of a roundtable discussion. Like, well, I've seen this work before. I've done this before. I mean, this might work. This might be a nice way of using these pallets, trying to find something that would be stable to withstand wind conditions. It being kind of resource smart, making sure we're not overusing whatever would we have in some sort of super intricate design.

And also something that we could assemble quite quickly and would be versatile, so something we could do in different settings. And also building something and building a design that wouldn't be super hard for people to use. So yeah, so it just felt like we were kind of just like putting our heads together and that's what we came up with was basically this super shelter that has a busy backbone of six pallets and maybe I don't know James it's possible to link some some much photos or whatnot but um yeah putting together basically great right yeah some sort of

your like structure that can be kind of designed or can be changed as it would be and especially something that anybody who's using it gets to actually have mimic their own home, their own setup. So it's not something that we're kind of dictating how it needs to be used. But yeah, we've got a really positive experience and a lot of expertise from folks from Kira Gaston

to kind of lead the way. So we both tools and other folks who were you going to use it, basically created it themselves. So that was our first experience. And yeah, well. And most's point was really a good one. And it's one I'd consider to, like it's quite, yeah, I don't want to compare the difficulties we encounter as volunteers of difficulties almost as just encountered and has just kind of shared with us in his journey because they're not the same. But like, it can be quite different. I speak quite a few languages, but still, without you, people who you can't speak to, that you want to connect,

you want to be like, I, what's happening to you is, it's disgusting and disgraceful, and it's not me. I'm not, I don't want it to happen and I it shouldn't be and I want to be in community with you as much as I can and so When we don't have that language the way that we can connect One of the ways that we can connect is to yeah grab a hammer or it's screwdriver or something and start building something I love it. I love it. You're so right. You're so right, James.

You are so unpointed. No, I mean, you know, I see in the real-be drill was like heaven to me. I mean, I swear not to give, you know, any brands or whatever. I'm just saying, it's not my favorite brand for sure. But you really truly, like you guys say, it's such a universal language. Like as men and as women and as people, we want to build, we want to protect, we want to see, we want to,

I mean, I'm taking this journey to come to my kids, and show them support and safety and protect it. It's happening right now. I was talking to them earlier and they're excited to see their dad soon. And just that feeling of warmth. I mean, this is what we do. This is what we do. And if you want to narrow it down and break it down to the basics, it's just what it is. It's the human level, it's a human condition. I mean, really, so these guys are gonna go through this pain for what?

I mean, clearly they're going through, or worse or things, and then that's the whole point. That's what they're trying to do. So, and then before I forget, and then I don't hope, I hope my phone doesn't die on me. Let me just give you the detention, if you guys have a minute, let me give you the, yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Before I, you know, so basically on, I think it was Monday, we get rounded up to what is, can easily be compared to a cattle, a wrench cattle kind of process where, you know, here, pick off your belt and everything. Yeah, that's familiar, but you know, there's a little extra. The bus driver is testing it to you like it's nobody's business. And, you know, gratitude with this humiliation.

And, you know, maybe you have one of them is nice, but the rest are just, you know, absolutely when I just tear you down as much as I can. And maybe one of them is nice, but the rest are just absolutely when I just tear you down as much as I can. And anyhow, so we lined up. We're onto this bus that's behind the camp, closer to Highway 80. I believe Highway 80, yes. And basically, we lined up, we're tagged,

we're basically stripped of everything that could be quote unquote dangerous. We're left with only one shirt in the middle of a cold morning. And doesn't matter, man, doesn't matter, man, women, everybody's treated the same. I appreciate their quality on that issue. So, and then we are on a bus journey that's about an hour and a half, maybe two hours, maybe more. To the, I'm trying to remember this very well because it's just, you know, it's important, I guess. San Diego, the San Diego, sorting facility, San Diego district, sorting facility, San Diego District, sorting facility, aka MCU, that's what they call it.

And basically, you know, your stuff is sorted and anything that needs to be thrown away and you're given, you become a, let me be clear, you become a subject. You're a subject now. You're not an subject. You're a subject now. You're not an alien, you're a subject James. Make sure you understand this. You're a subject sir. Let's be clear about the naming structuring. You are a subject.

All right? So I'm giving a subject number. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I can't believe in this day and age. I got used to the whole alien thing, alien number, but now it's a subject number. So anyhow, so we're done for that, and then you just look at people,

and the daisiness, and the confusion, elders, women, babies, this is hard-taking. And again, you have a couple of military border patrolmen at Seoul and acting like they're in the Marine Corps. They're just shouting after right. And they're like, you know, treating people

like they were disposable. So that's right there anyhow. So that's the, they call it the intake. So you're doing the intake and you're lined up and you're being not structured, you're searched. You're searched and then your backpack is taken away. You open it up in front of them as if you were at the airport. And then they throw away stuff that's

they've even though they're not, what's crazy is they're, the backpack is going to be zipped and they're going to be tagged and put away. So I'm not sure why thrown away food from the backpack The backpack is going to be zipped and they're going to be tagged and put away. So I'm not sure why thrown away food from the backpack is going to add anything or, you know, something is not an exception, but I guess that's what it is. So then you're done with the intake, you're sit down inside the central area, and you're waiting to be processed. Processing means fingerprints, picture, and then you write down,

they take a copy of your passport, and in there you write down the address in which you'll be put on court release later on. So that's that. Then basically a couple of hours later, you're assigned a detention cell. It's not a big place. And then basically a couple of hours later, you're assigned a detention cell. It's not a big place.

I mean, it's not a cell like a small cell. It's probably, I don't know, 20, but I don't know. I don't know, I'm back with that distances. But anyway, the point is we're there. We're taking to this place. I don't know, James, I don't know what you think of this. So they don't put handcuffs on us. But they tell you to put your hands behind your back as you're walking.

Yeah, very strange. I don't understand what's the point of that. They insist on putting your hands as if they were handcuffed behind your back. As you walk it, as you walk it, that is a big rule. And if you don't do it, they get pissed at you. And I'm not gonna let you. I'm always testing the water and I pissed them off a number of times. I did put my hands forward because I'm like, what are you trying to get to? You know, anyhow, so you get into yourself. Mine was 2A, all right, 2A. Yeah.

Pod. I'm sorry, it's called Pod. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you know, we're, we're into share, what is it? Work share spaces, basically. Yeah, we work. Here we go. We work, officially. Anyhow, so when we're there, you're giving gym mats, gym mats. And then, you know, when we all put our gym mats on the floor, imagine there is zero space in between. Like, the whole pod is covered with gym mats. Now, you have to lock on on gym mats basically anywhere you go.

All right, so that's the fact. And then you're giving these, what do you call them? These are not thermals. They're a lot of oil for your blankets, whatever. You have a Mylar blanket. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, those guys. And they do kind of work, but for me, they're too small. I mean, I'm, I guess I'm a tall guy, I mean, I don't know. So either your foot are sticking out or your head is sticking out or whatever. And I'm not the only one that's a lot of people like that. So, and an AC is blasting full speed 24-7 light, full bright light 24-7. And, yeah.

And then, a lot of, you know, know again they teach this in school in psychology 101. So light 24-7 AC freezing AC we're only allowed the shirt one shirt one shirt and then I'm talking about probably they have it on 55 60 60 60 No more than 60 degrees for sure. All right, and then you have people cold and getting sick. And then they clean three times a day to their credit. Where we all have to get out. So the cleaning crew can come in. But it is a key.

They clean at eight in the morning, at five in the afternoon afternoon and at midnight. So you can't sleep. Come on dude, really? Seriously? And that's what bit you asked. That's what bit you asked because that's just not allowed. So midnight, exactly midnight, sharp, get out.

Everybody sleep, everybody sleep, get up, get up, get up, get out. People, everybody sleep. Everybody sleep, get up, get up, get up, get out. And there's not, again, it's, it's, you know, we know these tactics, we read about these. This is like, you know, torture anyway. You know, I bet you, somewhere in the Geneva Convention there's something about this, I mean, I'm sure. Yeah.

So, so, you know, I didn't wanna create too much drama on the first day, James. The second day, I started testing the water. I'm like, you know, I'm being nice to everybody too much drama the first day James. The second day, I started testing the water. I'm like, you know, I'm being nice to everybody. Nobody speaks English, so I have to kind of speak up for people. You know, some people need to go medicine. I mean, you know, medicine or whatever. I speak for that, whatever.

And then some people just don't understand when their name is called for it, because it's misspelled, so I'll help with that. You know, in general, like, In general, I literally would walk around and ask for extra blankets and things like that. This all I've been doing, I hope the video will come out. We're doing a few, freedom of information, active quests.

Hopefully we can get that. Good. Yeah, yeah, hopefully we'll share that with you. I mean, it takes, I mean, they're gonna fight it tooth and nail. They're gonna fight it tooth and nail. Oh yeah, exactly. Thank you. Thank you, exactly.

So anyhow, so, yeah, after the second day, again, they give you food. I mean, food, I guess food. Yeah, they give you food. The second day, I started asking the question, OK, when am I going to get my phone call? The first person said, oh, I'll pass on the request. By the end of the day, I've asked like three or four times

to three or four different people. So the pods area is meant, supervised by DHS police. And then the processing in the central area is done by BP. And BP and customs and DSS hate each other. I mean, that's just clear. They told me that to my face. They don't get along. All right? Right. So, so when you are talking to DSS police because they're the one kind of the prison guards,

they just don't, they're on top of BP. They don't convey the information that you're as a prisoner. They're there. So that's been difficult. So you would want to ask to go to the nurse or something, so it can, on the way, you can try to pass on the phone. So I kind of located this situation. And then on the second day, I asked three times, I need my phone call, need my phone call. They came out and told me, you're crazy, we don't do phone calls, stop asking. So you're telling me, I'm a new ass soil. I, you know, I don't get to see the outdoor 24-7.

And it don't let me make a call to my lawyer or family. And that's when I just lost my image. So that's, but the end of the second day, I entered into a hunger strike. My body shut down completely. My body shut down completely. People that have known me to be a constantly active, I do yoga. I do...

I did yoga. People will start following me doing activities and trying to be sharp. Stay sharp. They saw me shut down completely. I didn't eat or drink anything. I mean, completely. I shut down everything. All systems are bored.

That's it. So, right away, my eyes are closed. The next day, they start freaking out. They bring in the wheelchair. But before they, just to let you know, out, they bring in the wheelchair, but before they, you know, just to let you know, before they put me on the wheelchair, with the baton, they just hammered me to make sure that this is real.

They're hammered, I still have bruises. I still have like a red dot on my chest, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I mean, you know, the kindness of their heart. Yeah. Again, they're very hateful because of where they are and what's going on. So, yeah. So, yeah, so I'm taking to the nurse. The nurse tells me, what's going on?

I thought, look, my body has shut down. My wife and kids don't know where I'm at. They don't know if I'm alive or dead or dead. And I just can't eat or drink or anything. Listen, sir, it's okay if you don't want to eat, but you have to drink while at least water. Or we're gonna put the IV, we can give you IV or antidepressants or anti-exiety medicine.

Listen, lady, I've never had the type of the present or medication. I rarely take medication. I would not have medication that is not an option. I've never had the present or medication. I rarely take medication. I would not have medication. That is not an option. I don't want the IV. I don't want to touch my body, period. I am, this is me, fully aware of what the consequences are.

And unless I get a hold of my Laura or a call, my family and tell them that I'm alive and where I'm at, this is gonna go. Last time I did this, I did it for four or five days, no problem. So, they started freaking out, James, they really, they called the big guns, I think he was a lieutenant or whatever the ranking is and came in and listened, what's going on, what are you doing man, they can't be doing this in my house. Again, my house, the guy owns the place. All right. So, I'm like, listen, I'm done. If you don't give me my call, expect me to do this for the whole, I'll go to the end.

I've done this against corrupt governments and when I was arrested in Tunisia or whatever, I can do this all day long, man, all day long. So, you can't do this. This is ridiculous. I have 1,800 people here. You're going to start a problem. I don't want problems here. So, he takes me straight out. I'm going to do this. I'm going, he's like, you can't do this. This is ridiculous. I've

1800 people here. You're gonna start a problem. I don't want problems here. So he takes me straight up to the center area, put me in front of phone, give me the phone number. I give him the phone number. He does my wife, bam, bam, shazam. I call her. They were still asleep at 7 in the morning. They have school at 8.30. So I did her a voicemail. I later found out that she did get the voicemail, thank God. And then she felt really good when she heard my voice and she knew it was going on. I imagine, yeah. Yeah, so I don't know, tell you, man, you know,

it's just a no man's land and it's just, and dude, when I got to talk to the supervisor when I escalated because they took my DNA, I like, what, I told them, look, what's going on? Why are. Like what, I told them, what's going on? Why are you taking people's DNA? Like what's going on? I told them, like, what are you accusing us for? Like, what is the accusation exactly?

He said, you're not accused of anything. And what am I guilty of? You're not guilty of anything. So why are you taking my DNA? And then why are you just, because this is the guy, the main guy, this is the guy that I saw coming in in an intake and then later on in the outcake, he's got like 20 screens in front of him, he's manning the border, he's like, you know, it's the main guy, like it's him.

So I told him, do you have your DNA, your own DNA taken? He said, yes, I did. Okay, I told him, if your DNA was taken, then you can take mine, that's fine. So they're taking people's DNA to put it in their database. And if you don't sign, they don't let you out. So you can stay there indefinitely until you do your DNA. How is this okay? Yeah.

And you know, give to you anything, James. You're not giving to you anything. That's the key. So you're not giving to you anything. I mean, I understand if you're arrested for a misdemeanor or a felony and, you felony and you know, in states that they take your DNA, I get it, but if you, there's no accusation, there's no guilty, and yet you're taking my DNA for what?

For what? So, it's crazy. So it was really rough, it was really rough, and then they were very, very nasty. I mean, one lady misdeas, I will never forget her officer deas. I mean, she was cussing left and right, left and right, left and right. And then I lost it, man. When she had me for, I think they had me do sign papers again. All right. So I was simply asking, why am I saying signing the same papers again?

Do you want to leave or you don't leave do you want to leave or you don't leave? And then on the same time James as she talks to me she pauses she looks at her colleagues and she's smiling to them and she's talking to them so nice I simply thought why are you talking nicely to your friends and you're so mean to us? Like why? Why are you doing this? Like what is the problem? Did I, did I, did I pull your names? Did I say something bad? No, but you're not my friend.

Yeah, but even if I'm not your friend, why are you casting at me? Why are you sending these bad things? That's shut her down. That totally shut her down, James. I mean, it was a completely different person after that because it was in front of her boss. It was in front of her boss.

I mean, I'm telling you, man, this is what happens when you have zero accountability. Zero. I mean, anybody, this is basic fruit, you've fruit in understanding of psychology 101, that if you give someone ultimate power, they're gonna take advantage. And, you know, I don't know what to tell you, man.

I feel bad for the people in that detention because, you know, I'm not saying they're being tortured, but it's just, you know, the little drops of water on your head. Yeah. You know, after a while, you can turn to, so there's one guy from Russia that was there for three weeks.

Wow. Three weeks. There's one guy from Brazil that was there for three weeks. Wow. Three weeks. There's one guy from Brazil that was there for a week. Come on, man. I mean, seriously, that's too much. Yes, too much. So that's a crazy time. That was horrific. And then when I was leaving, I found out

that they put the wrong address on my release form. And I don't know if you know anything about the US immigration bureaucracy, James. It is horrific. It is horrific. All the takes is the one the wrong digit in the address. They sent the paperwork to the wrong address.

Oh, we did it. We sent it. We don't care. We don't care. You know what I mean? And then you basically waiting all your life. And then that's pretty much what happened to me before when it was in the United States.

And then they don't care. Always to take it up with the US Postal Service. Are you serious? Like, you know, you were going to put someone in jail and because they sent them to the wrong address? Anyhow. So, anyhow, so I came back from the bus. The bus is loaded.

We're leaving. I came back to the look. You got, you know, you got the wrong address here. Like, you know, what's going on? Do you want to leave? What do you want to stay? Do you want to leave? That's all they talk about.

It's like a failure she's doing. It's not like a law thing. It's not the produce process. No, no. I'll be more than happy to stick you in there because you complain about a dad mistake that we made on your form. It's just, very sad.

Very sad. The whole thing is. It's just there need to make it as cruel and as hard and let people have people have died in the outdoor detention in another site, not the place where you are being in San Diego right? Like, and it's a tragedy and it doesn't have to happen and it doesn't have to be disantignified. And yeah, I think maybe people would have disagreements about the immigration, the different immigration laws. And they might feel differently to the way I do or you do, I'm at David do, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would really justify

the way you've been treated. And you can multiply that by thousands, right? And you're fortunate enough to be in relatively good health and not too young or not too old or not too sick for this to be a deadly trip. And still, it's obviously had a massive effect on you. I can understand why. I mean, I'm having a little bit of nightmares to be honest with you because what bugs me the most is those kids. And then on top of it, it's overwhelming because I was thrust in a position where sadly, I mean, I had to pick up for a lot of people. I mean, you know, yes, it, my family tragedy, I mean, is an issue. tragedy, I mean, there's an issue. But I mean, you know, I don't want to talk too much about what I did in Tunisia, but I was standing up against corruption and intense robbery and things like that. And it cost me a lot of problems and it cost me, I mean, being in

a blacklist in a government that's ever going negatively, you know, and jailing activists or jailing citizens for speech. The sad that's Deneja, the home of the Arab Spring, now is turning into another dictatorship sadly. So I didn't wanna use that as a reason, but I mean it is what ruined my personal life because I was constantly being harassed and pushed and shot by Deneja and you know, arrest and push them, shop by Tunisian, you know, hey, holes.

And then, you know, I am to find myself in, you know, like with a deja vu kind of ceiling with these gratuitous insults for nothing. So that kind of triggered me a lot, big time, James. Yeah. And then it felt like, you know, what is life worth? I mean, I know I'm coming from my kids, and they're the love of my life, and my life as well. But, you know, I want them to remember their dad as someone who careful with my brothers and my... You know, James, the most difficult part was David mentioned, the Persian guys, the running guys.

You know, I got annoyed a little bit, James, because they were really lining up behind me and holding my hand begging me to help them get out. Yeah. And because I'm the only one that spoke for mentors and it felt like they didn't have any records. And the detention center. And Magaladu, James, that was very difficult. That was very difficult. It was very difficult. It felt like when I was living, I was living friends, brothers, sisters, brothers behind. And that stuck with me, dude.

Yeah, I understand. It was a few people specifically that really, really, really, really stuck on me. And it is still, what is this world of poor? What are we doing all this for? And then, there are genuine decent human beings, this country needs as many workers, as many human citizens as possible. Instead of just shoving these people with hatred,

just align them, just give them a chance. Just, we have just kind of make sure they know the locals, they do all this and they do it. They all want to work, they all want to be good. Nobody that I met there is into drugs or anything. It sucks because it's like shooting you on the phone with your shooting you on the foot. It doesn't make sense.

It really felt really sad. And on a lighter note, getting into eventually released and getting on the bus and going to the central elementary, I believe in school. And I just get out of the bus, and I can hear the voices. I'm just saying this, everybody's calling. I'm like, it's getting dark, and I can't see. I can't see the people, but I found at least 18 people that were with me there. They were crying and they were like, thank you, thank you, thank you. It was really heartwarming.

It was really heartwarming and I appreciate that they recognize what we did, we're trying to do. A bunch of more Italians, Colombians, Mexicans, Ecuadorians, I mean you name it, it was just a Turkish and older gentleman at Iranians. They Iranians, the same Iranians that I helped get onto the bus from Willow, the same guys eventually all, I found them at Central. And it was really nice to see them and for them to just literally jump on me almost and tell me thank you and so many languages. I appreciate that. So I just hope all this kind of get somewhere

where they understand that it doesn't have to be this way. It really doesn't. And we're not asking, I'm not asking either get more people or do this. I'm just saying there is little tweaks that are now meant to increase the integration or make it impossible or anything. It's just little tweaks to, you know, to get this system a little better.

That's all I'm saying personally. Yeah, make it a little kinder and I think like it's always that way, right? Like it's people helping each other, even when the government doesn't help them. And like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We just got news. Oh, I was there yesterday that all the shelters at one of the sites were torn down. So like it will have to go back and build them again. But, um, yeah, yeah, people will, because I think we all, at least all of us here, I think

people should be treated with dignity and that they deserve a little better than they've been given currently. And have you been able to reunite with your children yet? Or is that so in your future? Yes, it's technically on Thursday, I'm supposed to be back with them. I am getting there on steps. I'm financially not viable right now. I'm brilliant, also friends, to hold out me up to Los Angeles right now. I'm brilliant, I'm so proud to hold that me up to Los Angeles right now.

And then we're collecting money for gas and my wife Lauren will be coming down on Thursday with the kids and then we're going to go to her mom's in Lancaster for Christmas party that she does. And then from there we'll make it back up to Pissomal. And in Pissomal, my wife was sheltering in other sisters, but the house is overcrowded and there's no way I can stay there. So I'll be, that's something that I'm trying to figure out

and where to stay and I don't have friends up there and don't have anything. So that's a problem that I'm having to deal with. And I on the same time, I was given April 12 as a court date and the nice and I have to deal with a lawyer and you contact the lawyers and they're expensive, the proponent lawyers that we called, they're not taking the cases. So I knew it was going to be difficult, but when you're in it, and it's, you think that it would be kind of a little better, but it's definitely not looking good.

But you know, I'm being close to my kids somehow and that's what matters to me. But this is a struggle. I was at Congressman's shift, so I mean, what kind of resources you have for immigrants, I just need a little bit of a, you know, start, so I can get back on my feet. And I kept them in touch since I was in Africa through the trip. There's only Congress office that at least interacted with us, me and my wife. But she looked at me from behind the class door and she said, good luck. She sent me the county immigrant affairs office link. And she told me good luck and said bye-bye.

And that's all there is to it. So it's a styoring and not given up, of course, but it's just, it's very difficult, James. Yeah, no, it shouldn't be this hard, it's complicated or this taxing, especially when you're finally here already. I'm just trying to be, I don't, I mean, my wife is on welfare and they keep cutting her welfare

smaller and smaller, just, we have two kids. I just need a chance to get up the back on my feet and be a good father to work. I can't work right now. I'm not allowed to work. Yeah. And I have to find money for the lawyer. I have to make money for me and make it.

This is really quite a humbling experience. And I know, I don't want to rely on anybody, but it's hard. It's hard. Yeah, no, it is. And I don't know how people are expected to pay for their legal representation when they're also expected not to work. It's just a system that seems to design to be as cruel and complicated as possible.

Yet, you know, the jobs are available. The jobs are available, James. I mean, I contacted about four or five places, my previous work experience in LA and in California was logistics and power rental and stuff like that. I called my previous boss, they all told me, come over. Like, you know, get your stuff, fill it out and come over, we find a job.

So we have plenty of vacancies basically, you know. So, but, you know, but you know, here you are, very well. Yeah, man, look, it's, it's a past. I've heard so many of these stories, but it didn't stop upsetting me. And I'm glad in a way because, you know, they're bad and they shouldn't, they should be upsetting to everyone who hears. And I'm sure everyone who hears this will want to do whatever they can to make this the easier. Are there like any orgs or nonprofits that have been helping you since you've got

in the US that you think people should? Oh man, nothing, nothing. I mean, it's been, you know, those who call very centric as far as Asian Americans or this or that is very specific. But, uh, migrant workers have the highest time of everyone. It's been done in you. No joke. And if you're a father trying to make it to your kids and try to, you know what I mean, do right brackets.

Doesn't mean anything. Nothing. absolutely nothing. So that's terrible man. Yeah, yeah, I had to do it. This is the first Christmas, this is the first Christmas for the kids outside of their where they grew up. I really wanted to make it as family friendly and happy as possible, but I don't even have the capacity to give them gifts or anything or even this is going to be hard. Yeah, fuck man, it is yeah. Yeah, man, sorry, that's that's okay.

I'm just a drop and an ocean of despair when it comes to immigrants. And I'm getting messages from some of them in New York, some of them in North Carolina, some of them in Illinois, couple in California. I mean, they're still desperate for health and special language and all that. So, you know, I'm grinding and I mean, they don't invest again, but you know, it's a reality check. It's a reality check, goes. Yeah, I'd know it's it's it's really, I mean, it's sickening how quickly you can be and that kind of nothing when the state doesn't care about you. Anyway, I want to thank you so much

for giving us your story and your time and being still open with us, because I think that's the only way that this stuff changes. It's that people hear, like numbers are great, and your story is one of tens of thousands, but I think sometimes we need to hear individual stories to understand the human impact of this. True, true, true.

And like, we'll stay in touch, you have my phone number. Absolutely. And sometimes, if anything, you need anything we can do for you. Yeah, I mean, I can't wait to come down to the board. I'm not giving up on the board or do it. I'm not. I want to bring at some point my kids to see the price.

And then I want to contribute, I want to find a way to give back, I want to, I know I can't do it right now, but I send my mom, my mind, and I know I'm not going to keep up on that, on that, on that dream of coming back there and continue to help with the long years. That's very kind of you. Yeah, but when you come down, let me know. I'll bring some wherever you tools, and we can build some.

That sounds good. Yeah. That sounds good. Fuck, I mean, it's like I'm just like I'm just for processing. Yeah, me too. For processing this and like hearing aimlesses say all this is like fuck like that's the conversation. Just what he's saying and his accountability

is human nature. Like something in the way that he was saying that I was just taking a pause on everything that I wanted to share. Because I really like it hit to the core of my own frustration with our responses. It's not getting to the point that what he was showing, I don't know the words right now to say that. My mind is now totally mush. Well, and it there, I do want to give both of you a chance to plug any,

an all organizations that you think can help. And because the people I've got to listen to this, we're breaking up to two parks. People will want to alleviate the suffering and there are people including yourselves and myself trying to do that. So it does an organization that you'd like to plug, fundraise, you'd like to plug, please do. Well, just the way the conversation ended, the thing that I was thinking is, you know, just a, you know, anybody listening to the, to what Emma has said, just one very small but perhaps meaningful thing would be to do something to enable him to buy some presents for his kids. I think that would be pretty cool. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of

the universe. It could happen here as a production of CoolZone Media. For more podcasts from CoolZone Media, visit our website CoolZoneMedia.com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could happen here, updated monthly at CoolZoneMedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hillary Burton Morgan here, and I'm excited to tell you about a new series I'm launching.

It is the companion podcast to Sundance TV's True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. Now, on the TV show, we focus on small towns and the crimes that can rip them apart, and on this podcast, we will go even deeper into our cases and give you a unique insider perspective on how these stories are told. Come join us as we get curious and get involved. Listen to true crime story. It couldn't happen here on the I Heart Radio app,

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Come spend some time where everyone is welcome and the default is kindness. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of Nothing Much, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world-changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy. I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social, emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise. Well, I like the fact that people who say, I'm not as tough on musk as I should be, or I'm always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on musk. Join me, Evan Ratliffe, for On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeart Radio App Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.