Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 192

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

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Starting point is 00:02:34 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. ["The New York Times"] Welcome to Get Appened Here, a podcast that played some role in the defeat of the Republicans' reposed ban on using Medicaid to pay for trans healthcare. I am your host, Mia Wong, and with me are three of the people who helped make this whole thing possible.

Starting point is 00:02:58 This is David Forbes, a journalist from the Asheville Blade and Maddie Cast-News, Maddie Castigan of the namesake Maddie Cast-News, and Mira Lazine of Free Radical and also Maddie Cast-News, Maddie Castigan of the namesake Maddie Cast-News, and Mira Lazine of Free Radical and also Maddie Cast-News. And all of you, welcome to the show. Congratulations on your defeat of the Republican Party and helping to save trans healthcare for unbelievably large numbers of people in this country. Yeah, that's kind of like a sentence that's kind of hard to accept. And you know, in a lot of ways, it is really what we've been trying to say, it's kind of like a sentence that's kind of hard to accept. And you know, in a lot of ways, it is really what we've been trying to say, it's been like

Starting point is 00:03:28 a collective effort of everyone involved, especially the people, the grassroots. And you know, like, I guess to give listeners a little bit of context. So going back to May, they're in the big beautiful bill that unfortunately did pass. Originally, Republicans included a ban on government funding for Medicaid for gender transition procedures. And originally it was for minors in the house. Then right before they passed it through the house, they actually removed the minors clause. So it was applying for all adults on Medicaid who are trans. At this point, everyone started kind of freaking out, which is very reasonable because, you know, there's over

Starting point is 00:04:04 200,000 trans people on Medicaid. Depending on the numbers, like 180,000, 270,000, depending on who you ask. And so what we found is that, you know, a lot of other sources have told us this, that the bird rule, which is basically, you know, parliamentary procedure in the Senate that only exists in the Senate, because of the filibuster pretty much is one way that we could kill this is what they told us back in May. And so that's something that we reported on and tried to take like, you know, basically like a don't panic angle or don't panic yet, at least, you know, like that there's a lot of ways to fight back against this. And we provided, you know, templates for here's how you can email your senators. And this is exactly what you should tell them. You should call them, you call specific people on specific committees

Starting point is 00:04:48 and tell specific things to them and you know of course a lot of other organizations and people also chipped into this you know A4TE, TE head of campaign and whatnot but I think you know at the end of the day what really pushed the needle was people calling in and waking Democrats up to this issue. And basically what ended up happening is we blew Senate White in, basically argued to the parliamentarian that, hey, this trans Medicaid ban, it's not a budgetary matter. It's actually a policy matter.

Starting point is 00:05:16 And the parliamentarian agreed and ruled that it was basically a 60 vote threshold and not a 50 vote threshold. So what that meant is that as long as all Democrats or at least 40 Democrats, 41 Democrats were opposing this measure, it was basically guaranteed to be kicked out of the bill. And we did end up having enough Democrats to basically ensure that that provision didn't make it into law, even though, unfortunately, the bill did pass at the end of the day. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:05:44 I think one thing that's notable about this, I think one thing that emerged in our discussions and while she's not in the podcast, I really want to thank Corrine Green for very invaluable like policy insight into some of this and some of the specific like ways and weaknesses to go after politicians on this. And you know, certainly we were not alone in this. I think there were a lot of grassroots organizations as well. And I think kind of the approach that emerged and was successful, I think it's kind of important how it happened because, one, it identified a specific weakness who weren't just vaguely asking legislators to do something about

Starting point is 00:06:20 this. And two, I think it did something which traditionally, definitely democratic politicians, but even a lot of the gay ink, to use a term popular among a lot of trans activists, like big lobbying groups and establishment nonprofits have been loath to do, which is it got angry at Democrats. It warned them that people were watching. It wasn't like, pretty please, will you do something to stop this? And from two decades dealing with politicians, that's a much more effective way to approach. If you're just going to ask nicely, they'll ignore you, they'll ignore your entire demographic if you're marginalized. If they're afraid of you, however, if they're worried about their phone lines being shut down with pushback, people getting angry at them, then they get worried and feel like they need to do something.

Starting point is 00:07:09 So I think both with our article and with some of the other grassroots groups involved, it really kind of put the focus back on what people can do, but it did it by identifying weakness and then pressing really hard on it. And I think that's kind of a break with how some of the very unsuccessful, higher level tactics that have, you know, been used or not been used against transphobic legislation before. Yeah. And I think it's important to, you know, look at the changing terrain of this all, because a lot of the sort of gay ink lobbying efforts were based on conditions that don't exist anymore and you could argue how effective they were back in like you know like 2015 yeah right and I still think there are more effective things that could have been done then there is no argument now like

Starting point is 00:08:00 you can't you can't just rely on sort of like access to democratic politicians being like, oh, hey, we're this org, you want this thing to happen. And we saw this a lot. And this is something that our policy analyst friend, Corrine Green, who I've had the show before was talking about with like with the Biden administration was the way that all of these orgs sort of just fell in line behind the Biden administration, like fucking over trans people's health care in ways that no one ever really talked about. And that kind of access model got flipped.

Starting point is 00:08:29 You know, whatever they were trying to do before, and you can have arguments about like what they thought they were doing. At this point, it's just like, no, like you're not existing to like protect queer people. You're existing to protect the Democrats from queer people. And, you know, and the situation we're in now is one where, and there was some very, very scary reporting coming out of the Democrats where it's like, it wasn't clear if they were actually going to try to whip the votes together, like to actually vote against this stuff. And so like, we're at a point where regardless of whatever you would have supported before, and

Starting point is 00:09:03 again, like I think, I think they were wrong before, but like now, no, this is the only way to do this shit. Like there's no other mechanism. Yeah, so this has been something I've especially noticed in like reporting on this, because myself and Maddie, we both co-reported on the initial story, breaking the fact that the Medicaid ban was going in there.

Starting point is 00:09:24 Maddie especially did all the stuff with the bird roll. When we initially started working on the story, it was just a small tip we had that there was going to be something big coming in the next funding bill. And I can definitely speak that at the time Democrats, lobbyists and so forth, they were just very like business as usual, right? They were just even knowing that a lot of this was kind of had the chance of emerging and that there was going to be a lot of bad stuff emerging.

Starting point is 00:09:56 A lot of it was still like trying to use these old tactics from way back when to just act like everything is still as if it's, you know, 2015, 2014. And once everything started to unfurl and the Medicaid ban became added in to the bill itself, witnessing it all from just a reporting perspective was like, it felt like watching them all go into panic mode and yet at the same time be like trying to find ways to kind of push us to the side. Yeah. And while I am of course like God so incredibly thankful, we were able to play any type of role and getting this done. Like,

Starting point is 00:10:43 so it's become a narrative among so many, for lack of a better phrasing, proponents of gay ink, proponents of the status quo, proponents of just your social democracy types, that the way forward is to be nice, to beg and plead for our rights, to hope that they give us it if we ask really, really nicely and we beg and plead and we say thank you and we don't be too rude or else we'll earn it and we'll deserve whatever they give. It's like what ultimately became the final straw was like, we sent out a push for every single just reader, follower, every single listener podcast, everyone at home who just spread this around, put pressure on the politicians, made it clear this wasn't

Starting point is 00:11:36 acceptable, made it clear that no, they can't just ignore us and act like we don't exist and that no, they can't just wash their hands away and pretend like this is all fine and that their records clean that no, it's this is something that matters. This is something that has to be fought. And it really boiled down to just the intense like pressure everyone put publicly like, yeah, and I think it is a very ultimate testament to how the true power in any political system lies not with just a handful of

Starting point is 00:12:12 elected nepo babies that end up getting into office but with the regular people who make their voice heard who band together and aren't afraid to say hey this shit is fucked up we need to do something about it. You're mentioning how like whatever debate about the gang approached before it's it's not just dead now, it's catastrophically failed. I honestly think that's kind of beyond debate at this point. But one thing that I think kind of this shows is that when you're dealing with politicians, if all you have is, hey, pretty please be nice to us,

Starting point is 00:12:56 but generally, not just can you be ignored, but like if they go, no. What else do you have then if you don't have some other kind of leverage? And one thing I've seen consistently at local, state, and federal levels is the odds are a lot better if people are angry and the politicians are afraid. So I think building that, that's the real advantage that grassroots have. Yo, stop caring about politicians. Are your friends or really care about us? Because generally the answer is they don't.

Starting point is 00:13:28 None of them are our friends. And more focus on what can you and your communities, your friends, the larger networks you're part of, do to make their lives miserable until the part of the status quo you're trying to fight becomes unsustainable for them too? What I heard from people on, from people on the, on the Hill or people close to people on the Hill is basically that the whole bird rule maneuver for this specific provision, there was, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:54 definitely whispers of it, you know, especially among lobbyists and maybe some staffers, but until he was being publicly advocated for this specific tool to be used by constituents towards senators, Democratic senators specifically. It wasn't really hugely in consideration or that wasn't something they were planning to do in a very strong way.

Starting point is 00:14:14 Maybe it would have happened eventually, but it definitely does seem like the constituent pressure specifically did help make Democrats realize that, hey, we're watching you, we're watching you do like whether you're invoking these parliamentary procedures that you aren't supposed to know about. Like you're not supposed to know about this stuff, right? It's like, it's really obscure stuff that no one knows about except like super autistic policy nerds like me and Karen probably. But yeah, and this kind of stuff is really what turns the needles.

Starting point is 00:14:46 And like, you can look at the other side too, right? Like, you know, there are extremely effective lobbies in Congress you can look at. You can look at the lobby that literally got this provision into the bill. They sent a letter to Speaker Johnson saying, hey, you should expand this from minors only to adults because we think this will actually help it survive the Berg roll better. And this was a public letter, right? And you might say, oh, well, that's not a big deal, right? It's just a letter, right?

Starting point is 00:15:09 But how many gay rights organizations released a letter to Democrats saying they should invoke the bird rule? I'm not aware of any. I think that's a key part of this is that, yes, eventually some of those groups did start belatedly moving against this. Yes, eventually, some of those groups did start belatedly moving against this. Yes, eventually, as probably into a second, some politicians did in various ways start moving against this. But I think it's important not to get kind of the cart before the horse that came after the grassroots pressure came after weeks of people getting

Starting point is 00:15:39 angry at them, blowing up their phones, very public criticism. All the things that I think were told a lot of the time by liberals and democrats were not supposed to do, you know, be nice, or your concerns won't be heard. Well, it turns out that the Isaac office is the case. And you mentioned those conservative lobbyists, people know, you know, I don't think it's always a rule that the tactics are going to be can be adopted for various reasons. But the NRA and all these terrible groups don't go into Congress going, hey, please be nice to us. They go in going, do this or we're going to make your life hell. And if you're, if you're, this is a terrain people are going to fight on. That's how you have to fight as far as, because that's what moves politicians at every level is,

Starting point is 00:16:26 to fight as far as because that's what moves politicians at every level is it's oh my god, I do not want this group angry at me. And there's one thing I want to add to is, since the bird rolls and folk in the band was taken out, there has emerged a common narrative online. It's not really one specific person doing this. It's just kind of something that's kind of collectively emerged in that claiming that the credit lies with politicians, with lobbyists, with staffers, with all these anonymous people behind closed doors who are supposedly the ones that actually did the work and no one else matters. I want to strongly emphasize that that is not only not true, but dangerous rhetoric. It's propaganda. Yes.

Starting point is 00:17:10 It's an attempt to reinforce the role that the state has in subjugating everyone to reinforce the fact that, oh, no, the way things are is perfect. You can trust all these leaders to protect you when no, you can't. They are the reason we got in this mess. The gay ink tactics are the things that have failed and led to this in the first place. Liberals had plenty of opportunities to prevent this and they didn't. And ultimately, the reason that this narrative spreads is because at the end of the day, gay ink is called that for a reason because well Yes, their interests happen to align on the realm of queer rights because they themselves are queer at the end of the day They are still representing the upper class and their primary interests are still going to be with protecting the upper class and protecting the role they have in subjugating the lower class and

Starting point is 00:18:01 Subjugating marginalized people who are not in their economic class. Yeah, which is most trans people like almost all of us. Yeah, this is like really important because I don't think the intersections of queerness and definitely not trans in class get talked about nearly enough. Yeah, which is is that queer and trans you're overwhelmingly working class demographics. Yep. Like the legislators, like Sarah McBride, but also the people running gang organizations are not

Starting point is 00:18:32 just not generally representative of our wider communities in a lot of ways. They also just have had incredibly different lives, almost always with some exceptions. They've been part of the gentry their entire lives. And most queer trans people, especially trans people are as far from the gentry as you get. So that does create like this massive gulf. But also, I think it's one reason these groups are so out of touch. But also, I think it does, you know, if we put the power back on ourselves, if we realize that this kind of grassroots anger is much more representative of where queer and trans people are, if this willingness to fight directly in whatever tactics people choose is much more like in keeping with like queer culture and tradition and history, then I think there's a lot of power there.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And I think this is an example of successfully wielding that. I think Mira was correct about this propaganda that's kind of been spreading in the wake. And it was particularly, I think, egregious because it specifically like cried to credit Sarah McBride, who had just come off a really obnoxious interview with the New York Times where she was literally against all the aggressive trans rights. And then after the man finally got killed, this, you know, various sources and honestly, no, no, anyone hearing this stuff in whatever capacity, the Journalist Act is whatever. I think it's just professionally good to be more skeptical when these kind of convenient narratives emerge.

Starting point is 00:20:00 But yeah, kind of emerge all behind the scenes. She'd been doing so much. Yeah, sure. But yeah kind of emerged at all behind the scenes she'd been doing so much. Yeah sure in public She'd been you know, very either Loki or refusing to defend trans rights at all even Justifying some of the narratives of our enemies, but sure she was doing all this behind the scenes She refused to fucking do anything when they banned trans people from fucking bathrooms in DC. Yes Yes exactly bathrooms in DC. Yes. Like in Capitol Hill. She wouldn't even defend her own staffers. Yes, exactly. So like, it's worth being skeptical to claim that, oh, she was doing so much behind the scenes. However, you know, if she was prompted in the last week of a multi-week

Starting point is 00:20:34 effort to suddenly start taking some action based on anger, great. Part of the point of these strategies is to prompt people who don't want to act into feeling like they're forced to act. But I think in 20 years of covering politics at various levels, if politicians don't like something, you will know. If they support something, you will know. They will be very loud and very public because the public platform is one of the biggest powers they have, as well as doing whatever behind the scenes. If they're quiet about something or even seem opposite to it, especially if it involves a group on the front lines like trans communities,

Starting point is 00:21:10 and then later on they try to kind of take back credit of saying, oh, look, you know, we were doing so much behind the scenes. That is pretty universally a tactic to demobilize people. Yeah. And I want to note that the point of us saying this is not to say that, you know, Sarah McBride or, you know, Safers or these other people didn't do anything. Like, of course they did stuff, right?

Starting point is 00:21:32 Like they voted, they were voting, they probably made some phone calls and stuff, right? But what we're saying is like, okay, they basically did the bare minimum of what they're supposed to do, right? Like, and that was only after a huge pressure campaign from the grassroots and from people who they would literally not be even in office without. Like, I did the math in an article way back in last November, and there's like exit polls showing that like 86% of LGBTQ people voted for Democrats last year. That's like a crazy margin. That's like, it's up there with, you know, black voters and LGBTQ people are like the biggest margin. That's like, it's up there with, you know, black

Starting point is 00:22:05 voters and LGBTQ people are like the biggest faces of the Democratic Party, right? Like they would have lost three or four more Senate seats. It would have been like a 56 or 57 seat chamber if it were not for literally the people that are advocating for this healthcare. And it's so absurd that like Sarah McBride, what she did was, if we assume everything that's been said is true about this, is what she's done is basically she got Democrats to not vote to take away the health care of 200,000 trans people, which is like, why was that even a question? Like, like this is, this is, this is the actual story that that came out of this, in my opinion, that was bigger is that

Starting point is 00:22:42 this was ever in question that there might be like seven or eight Democrats who would vote to ban Medicaid from 200, 300,000 trans people. Like, and the fact that we're supposed to like give them a huge applause for not doing that is, is kind of obscene to me. Yeah, I think the readiness to thank politicians kind of cuts against the grassroots anger and organizing that works so well here. Because you don't want them, and actually I think it's generally a good rule not to thank politicians, because what you want to constantly keep them in, if that's the terrain you're going to fight on, is they need to feel like they're on thin ice.

Starting point is 00:23:19 They need to worry, their staff needs to worry about, okay, we got to keep this out of the bill because holy hell, you do not want those queers mad at you. That's where you want to get closer to if putting pressure on politicians is what needs to happen. And so buying these narratives, thanking them, that takes the pressure off. Don't ever do that, you know? Yes. And so I think it's kind of important to quote the internet masterpiece, old drill tweet, like, you don't need circumstances, have to hand it to them. At best, they acted late, grudgingly, after they faced a ton of anger that resulted

Starting point is 00:24:01 and was helped amplified by a ton of work from bluntly like working class trans people and working class queer people. Yeah. And I would argue that what representative McBride did specifically, even assuming that it did like help us in the short term with this bill, the way that she's been kind of talking about this internally and in the New York Times interview is actually extremely like dangerous for trans people because like, believe it or not, they're not going to stop with this bill. They're going to do it again. They're going to do it again, probably in budget bills or another reconciliation bill. And at some point, it's going to come down to the wire where Democrats will have to publicly defend the right of trans people to have health care and to be

Starting point is 00:24:41 alive and to exist. That's going to happen at some point. And what McBride has been telling everyone, what she's been telling as her client in the New York Times, what she was telling Democrats behind the scenes, according to the notice article, is that you can't talk about these issues. You have to be really quiet. You just have to do it behind the scenes because it's too hot topic of an issue. You don't want to accidentally, I don't know, show the world that trans people might actually deserve to exist. It doesn't even make sense. I think to exist. It doesn't even make sense. I think they just... It doesn't.

Starting point is 00:25:07 They just feel gross arguing it. Personally, there's no political... There's no good political catalyst. They just feel gross talking about trans people is my opinion that this is why they don't want to do it. It's bad for them politically. They will lose votes. They will lose political power.

Starting point is 00:25:22 They just hate us, basically. I don't know. We should never be nice or kind or thank politicians like both Maddie and David had said. They are not our friends. There is a popular approach that I think a lot of people end up having towards these kind of quote unquote leaders. That they are somehow these mythical saviors of everyone. That they're all leading these nonprofits, they're leading these companies, these governments to save us.

Starting point is 00:25:58 They are not our friends. They do not give a shit about us. You would be surprised at things I've heard behind closed doors that they have said. They are not your friends. They hate every single fucking poor person. They will never say that vocally, but they hate us. Especially the trans ones. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's like us to be subservient to them until the day we fucking die, because it's all about consolidating their own power. And the kind of core that I'm getting at here is kill the idol in your head. You should never have an idol. There is no person worth

Starting point is 00:26:34 idolizing. Not only not Gay Inc. Not even only not anyone in this call, this podcast. No one at all should be idolized because doing that is placing all the power in the hands of people you don't know, in the hands of people who are just as human as anyone else. And even if they're very good people who do good things, are fundamentally capable of fucking up and doing bad. And if you idolize someone, you end up condoning everything they do, whether you even say it or otherwise, it comes with the territory. Fundamentally, you should not rely on other people to save you. You should rely on you and your community.

Starting point is 00:27:13 You need to fucking work with your community to bring about the outcomes you want. And I mean, you, the listener, like you specifically, yes, you need to work with your community to bring about what you need. I think that's kind of the message that should emerge from this is no one in Washington, no organization, politician, the ones that power here, you are. You and your friends are, you and your community are. And I know we've said that a little bit before, but it's worth re-emphasizing how much people can do when they get together and decide to do something about these issues. Yeah. And I think that's a really good note to end on. However, comma, before we do that, very exciting news. Do y'all want to introduce the new news network?

Starting point is 00:27:56 Hell yeah. We have huge news to announce that's related to the news website that we used to write this article about the Berggrue, formerly known as Maddiecast News, will now be known as Trans News Network. And we're basically relaunching completely, we're switching up our business model from technically was a for-profit before, but now it's going to be a fiscally sponsored nonprofit of community partners. And we're also moving off of sub-stack to Behive. And so,

Starting point is 00:28:27 you know, as Merit and David were saying earlier, like, we don't want you to rely on us to save you. Like, it's kind of like a team effort, right? Like, we do have a part to play. We'll help you, give you information. But we also could use help from you. We could use help from the listener, especially people who do have, you know, some people have more time, some people have more resources or money. And one thing that we are looking to do with our relaunch is to fundraise so we can basically, you know, ensure that basically our journalists like, you know, Mira and David have the financial stability they need to continue making journalism like this. And so we're launching with a fundraiser and we're gonna

Starting point is 00:29:05 we'll have a link, I guess, with the podcast description. And there will be like, you know, you can get a free gift if you donate a certain amount. That's a huge way to help. But as well, you know, you also need to actually listen to the things that people in your community say, like what are the things people in your community are saying that can help? What are other ways that you can contribute back to save yourselves basically? Because we're all in this together. And yeah. I think also one of the reasons I'm really excited about the TransNews Network and the transition, as it were, to the TransNews Network is that I think our collective experiences and our experience with this fight as well have shown that there is a real need

Starting point is 00:29:45 for hard-hitting, powerful, unrepentantly radical and trans journalism. Trans journalism that actually gets trans communities and proceeds kind of to take the fight from there. And so that is badly needed. And I think we are from our own experiences and from kind of what we've all built working together, like able to be part of that. Yeah. And just to add one thing, because I know how many trans people are artistic and need to hear this spot out. I'm one of them. This is explicitly a workers co-op. We are doing this radical from the ground up. Everyone gets equal say, this is a community thing. This is not some like, oh, you know, we're doing this. But then there's a nice CEO who makes 500k. No, this is the money is going to the journalists who need it. This is a group of us basically deciding, hey,

Starting point is 00:30:41 we need to fucking keep doing this work. We want to we need the support. We need help. Yeah. And we're joining the bandwagon of all these news outlets doing workers co-ops, because that's the only way you can fucking make money in this industry nowadays. It's also the fairest and best way to do it. Yep. It is it's objectively the best and most ethical way to do this under the hellscape of capitalism. Yep. And at Tamir yeah, Tamira's point, and I'm going to, we went on this podcast earlier this year to talk about trans journalism. And you might want to listen to that as well. If you're curious on like just the struggles that a lot of us have dealt with. And number one is, you know, the material need for, for money basically. And I'm going to say what

Starting point is 00:31:21 I said in that episode again, which is that $100 for some people like, you know, say working class trans person is very different compared to $100 for people in other social classes, you know, maybe someone working in tech or something like maybe you'll get a dinner at $100 and it's not a big deal to you, right? It could be life changing for someone else who's literally like spending their life creating news to help trans people. Like you know this article that we wrote, it wasn't a huge amount of money that that took to create that. But at the same time, we don't have a lot of money to go around.

Starting point is 00:31:56 Like it's been basically a small number of people. We have a good number of like paid subscribers too. But really in order to keep expanding the way we want to, we really need more money and it's going to be so huge to trans people everywhere. So yeah. So if someone has money and is interested in supporting trans journalism, that is all the things we've just talked about and I think makes a real difference. Yeah, please sign up as a paid subscriber, donate to the fundraiser, every single dollar of that we will put to use.

Starting point is 00:32:26 Yep. Our first goal is basically to hire one of our journalists as a part-time W2 employee, which would be literally life-changing. So yeah. Yeah. And we said this in the last episode and we're going to say it again, working class trans journalism can exist if you support it. And every single dollar that you send to a working class trans journalist is going a

Starting point is 00:32:48 Hundred times further that is going for any other thing you can do Yeah, it's like like it's going so much further that it is giving it to like fucking the Human Rights Committee or whatever the fuck Like wait, what's his what's the actual name of that organization? Human Rights Campaign. Yeah. Yeah, that one. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, oh by the way did i mention it's tax deductible so gotta throw that in there if you itemize your deductions if you give like a hundred dollars to us then you get to pay like you know whatever like 30 less goes to the federal government which means slightly less money for ice and israel that's how i see it anyway in Israel. That's how I see it anyway. Please, dear God, I'm tired of living off my measly savings. Dear God, please.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Yeah, you can tell we're really trying to sell this. And also, I think, like, you know, Meir and myself both do other trans journalism work. I'm part of the editor of the Asheville Blade, which is a local trans journalist co-op. And we've seen how far that goes. So yeah, the more support for trans journalism period, Trans News Network, the free radical Asheville Blade, some of the other projects out there, the better. Yep. This has been Nick Adhafin here.

Starting point is 00:34:02 Support trans journalism and go keep fighting the good fight. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think in the New York Daily News, it's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future,

Starting point is 00:34:46 Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse?

Starting point is 00:35:01 Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. For my heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to ten girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse.

Starting point is 00:35:44 Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor? But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to The Turning River Road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American history is full of wise people. What women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is gory.

Starting point is 00:36:28 Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they loved to cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history and I find the answers. Including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar and Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said, it would have been harder to fake it than to do it.

Starting point is 00:37:06 Listen to American history hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why open AI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job.

Starting point is 00:37:34 I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts. Hi everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen here. We are joined once again by Gillian Brochel, who is once again going to talk to us about the parable actually world of deportation flights, how we can track them, what we can learn from following them and what it tells us about the US's massive deportation regime. Welcome back, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me, James. I appreciate it. You're welcome. All right, let's get going here because we've got a lot to go and there've been a lot of planes deporting people. Deporting and removing. So we've really stopped saying deporting

Starting point is 00:38:25 because we don't know who hasn't gotten due process and who does and does not actually belong to the country they're being sent to. Yeah, in many cases, it's more like what we saw in the extraordinary rendition. Very much so. Kind of war on Terry, I think that's probably a better way to describe it.

Starting point is 00:38:44 So yeah, let's start out, I suppose, with Djibouti. Yeah. So the eight men that were sent to Djibouti, that's the flight I first tracked on May 20th. They were taken on a Gulfstream 5 operated by Journey Aviation from Harlingen, Texas to Shannon Airport in Ireland. And I, you know, called the cops in Ireland to try and stop it. Didn't work. And then they went to a US military base in Djibouti,

Starting point is 00:39:11 where a judge had ordered them to remain while he considered their case. So those men are now in South Sudan, where Trump wanted to send them. They were held in Djibouti for six weeks. We know from court filings that they were held inside a shipping container in a far quarter of the base near a burn pit where the trash for the base was burned

Starting point is 00:39:37 and that smoke from this pit was getting into the shipping container through the vents and causing the men and the ice guards to cough and feel ill. There was also an independent journalist named Alex Planck who got a photo from a source on the base showing one of the detainees shackled at the ankles and being escorted by an ice guard to the restroom because the shipping container did not have its own restroom. And he said that most of the members of the military

Starting point is 00:40:10 at the base didn't even know that they were there. And this base is generally considered one of the worst assignments to get when you're in the military. Plonk said he talked to a defense contractor who said that they stopped sending their employees to that base because it was just too terrible. So during the six-week period, I and other flight trackers, we tracked five trips by

Starting point is 00:40:38 round-trip trips by Journey Aviation jets to and from their base in Miami and Djibouti, all traveling through Shannon. Presumably, these were flights that were swapping out ICE guards, but we really don't know because ICE does not provide any information about its air operations. Everything we know is through court filings and through open source intelligence, like the ADSB exchange. Then on July 3rd, the Supreme Court cleared the way for these third country removals and this one specifically to South Sudan. All of us flight trackers were watching the airspace really closely and we knew that one of Journey's jets was already there on the ground in Djibouti. So that's what we were looking for. Journey's jets was already there on the ground in Djibouti. So that's what we were looking for.

Starting point is 00:41:25 But then on the evening of July 5, about two days later, DHS announced that it was done. They had removed the detainees to South Sudan via a military flight earlier that day. And I have gone over the air traffic data for that region six times on the ADSB exchange. And I haven't been able to spot this military flight. And granted, Djibouti is a real ADSB dead zone, but Juba isn't. Juba actually

Starting point is 00:41:53 has quite good coverage. And, you know, Addis Ababa also has very good coverage, which they would have had to fly over. So it's clear to me that this military flight, if it happened, as DHS claims, probably flew the entire trip with its transponder turned off, which is something that the military can do. But it's not standard. I think people would be surprised how rare actually it is for military flights to do that. Unless they're going on a combat or a spy mission Most military aircraft fly with their transponders on so if you think about the Iran airstrikes a couple weeks ago The week before the airstrikes There were 32 globe masters and strata tankers that flew from the US to bases in Europe in a single night

Starting point is 00:42:42 That like every av geek was like, whoa, you know, and we knew that that happened because they flew with their transponders on, even though it made it really obvious that some kind of military operation was probably imminent. And then even during the airstrikes, these aircraft would take off from Europe with their transponders on, turn them off over the Mediterranean when they were heading east, do whatever they were doing, and then turn them back on when they were headed back toward Europe. So even part of the combat mission, they still have their transponders on. So the fact that the flight to South Sudan, which was not a combat or a spy mission, appears to have flown the entire

Starting point is 00:43:26 trip with its transponder off is quite notable to me. And, you know, I see it as an extension of ISIS tactics on the ground where they are covering their faces and refusing to identify themselves. But I'm, you know, kind of surprised that they got the military to go along with that. kind of surprised that they got the military to go along with that. Yeah. If it was really a military flight relic, it could be something kind of military adjacent, like some DHS or other government aircraft. Right.

Starting point is 00:43:57 I mean, we don't know. Yeah. They said it happened by a military flight on this date, but we don't know. Yeah. So on July 8th, the spokesperson for the South Sudanese government told the AP that the men were there and that they were, quote, under the care of the relevant authorities who are screening them and ensuring their safety and wellbeing. We have no idea what that means. Does that mean they're in prison there?

Starting point is 00:44:21 Does that mean that they are, you know are going to be sent to their countries of origin as they claimed at one point? We have no idea. And then just a few minutes ago, we're recording this on Basile Day, July 14th, the same plane that first took these men to Djibouti was scheduled to take off from El Paso for Shannon Airport in Ireland once again. Where it goes after that, well, you might know by the time you hear this, but right now it's anyone's guess. Yeah. It's baffling. Some of this stuff like the deportations to, or not deportations,

Starting point is 00:44:57 like rendition to South Sudan, right? Like even Homan, who's Trump's quote unquote borders are or immigrations are, seems to be asserting that he has no idea what's happened to them once they've landed there. Like, at one point they suggested that they didn't think they would be detained, but like, did they just let them out onto the street? And I mean, when people are released from custody in the United States, that's exactly what they do, right? They let them out onto the street.

Starting point is 00:45:23 Like, a lot of volunteers here in San Diego have spent a lot of time, you know, because often people are released without, sometimes they're released without religious garments, which are very important to them. Often they're released without any sort of orientation as like, you know, where are they, how do they get where they're going? Can they afford a flight? You know, how do they book a flight? Do they have the relevant documents to book a flight? Like it's a complete clusterfuck. And that's in the US. Right. And I mean, think

Starting point is 00:45:49 about it. If you're like, Laotian or Vietnamese man in your 50s or 60s, which a lot of these men are older gentlemen, and you're what just like, led out into the streets of Juba, which is, you know, a big city, but there's a lot of instability in this country. Like, what are you going to do? You don't speak Dinka? Like what, you know? Yeah, you're very vulnerable. Very vulnerable. And you probably don't have any material resources. It's not like you can get your credit card,

Starting point is 00:46:17 take out much money and fly somewhere else. Nor do these people really have, in many cases, anywhere to go, right? Like the reason that they've been taken to third countries is generally that they have withholding of removal or convention against torture claims that they can't be removed to their home countries. Since we recorded this, we have found out that people in South Sudan are being detained. According to an outlet called The Daily, which is a South Sudanese outlet, those people are incarcerated in South Sudan. Like the man from Myanmar, you know, they're arguing that, you know, I suppose, oh, we can't send him to Myanmar. But if you're going to send him to another place where he's likely to be tortured, is it really any different? And also they are sending people to Myanmar. They have

Starting point is 00:47:03 deported people to Myanmar in the last few months, as you, James, have reported. Yeah, that's right. They've sent more than a dozen people to Myanmar and seem to be continuing. At least they have not said they will stop. And most of those people were directly detained by military intelligence in Myanmar when they landed. So those people will have been tortured. And yet this, this other person who had a withholding of removal doesn't mean that he will not be tortured. I mean, if we look at like, migrants making the journey to the United States are routinely kidnapped, tortured, ransomed, killed, sexually assaulted. I've heard of all of these firsthand. I don't suspect it will be any different. You know, once they're outside the US again, they're extremely vulnerable.

Starting point is 00:47:46 And we saw this a lot in Title 42, when the Trump administration and the Biden administration would just boot people back over the border, often they would do lateral transfers. So you enter into San Diego sector, they drop you in the Laredo sector or in somewhere further east. And those people then have zero network, right? And often don't speak Spanish and are extremely vulnerable. It's pretty much the worst case outcome. Well, unfortunately, in the next part, I'm about to tell you about how all of that is about to increase exponentially.

Starting point is 00:48:17 Yeah. Talking of things that are increasing, they're not actually increasing. We still have to do two advertisements every show, so we're going to do one of them now. All right, we are back. I hope you enjoyed those adverts. Here we had some new ones for like religiously sanctioned gold, which I'm very excited about. This is one thing Jesus loved, it was money changes. A lot of stuff in the Bible about that. I think silver especially, right? Yeah, big precious metals guy. Love to see currency speculation. Okay, let's talk about Djibouti, place where the United States has a big base that it is using for housing people and it's

Starting point is 00:49:01 renditioning to other countries. Yeah, so when we first recorded this, we were just doing a Djibouti update about the men who were renditioned to South Sudan. And we knew at the time that there was another Journey Aviation jet about to take off. And now we know what happened with that flight. It landed again in Djibouti. And two days later, DHS announced that it had renditioned five more people to the country of Eswatini, which it had been to. I reported there in 2011, I spoke to teachers who were starving because they hadn't been paid for eight months by the king, who, you know, is the last absolute monarch in Africa. And, you know, the teachers that I spoke to were terrified to disappear into the prisons that these five men have now been

Starting point is 00:49:56 renditioned to. I worked with another independent journalist named Alex Plck. And we published a story using OSIN to prove that Journey Flight to Djibouti was carrying the five men. And from there, they were transported by a C-17 US military, huge aircraft that flew with its transponders off from Djibouti to Eswatini to deliver these men. It seems like that is the emerging standard for these military deportation flights, right? At least for the final leg. Yeah. So the last week has been pretty crazy. An Omni 767 did a removal flight to a couple of places in Africa, and at least two and perhaps three

Starting point is 00:50:48 large military jets also did removal flights from the United States, landing in Gitmo just for fun and landing in different countries in Africa. Now the interesting thing about that and about Journey is that until this past week, Africa and Central Asia have really been the purview of this other ice air operator that's really gone under the radar. But I think it's possible, might be doing some things that are even more sinister than your usual ICE air flight. It's a high bar. Yeah. So this company is called Aircraft Transport Service. They are Florida based, but they are now all of their aircraft are based

Starting point is 00:51:38 in Mesa, Arizona, which is an ICE hub. And they're at the end of their five-year contract doing these special high-risk removals to dangerous areas or with allegedly dangerous migrant passengers. Their flights really began to spike in mid-February up until July 4. They have five private jets that they lease from their owners to operate these flights. And I've looked at all of their flights and it's not clear if they are doing any flights that aren't ICE, but certainly at least most of their business is ice.

Starting point is 00:52:27 And so I've tracked 19 different trips, different ice removal trips that they've done since February 18th. And most of these have gone to countries in Africa. And that really began to surge around April 29. And what I've noticed is that on June 26, New York Times published a story about the Trump administration is pressuring all of these countries to accept more of these third country removals.

Starting point is 00:53:05 And there's a lot of overlap between that list of countries and the countries that ATS has been landing in for the last four months. There is a pair of flights in particular that I find pretty alarming. They went out within 30 minutes of each other on May 20th, which was the same day that the flight to Djibouti went, the flight that was supposed to go to South Sudan. And these flights, so these flights started

Starting point is 00:53:41 doing their usual ice removal route, which is Mesa, maybe we stop in Fort Worth to pick up more migrants. Then you do a fuel stop in San Juan, you do another fuel stop in Senegal, and then you go wherever you're gonna go in West Africa. These flights, 30 minutes apart from each other, flew directly from San Juan to Mauritania and were on the ground for 30 minutes and then from there flew to Senegal.

Starting point is 00:54:15 I can't prove anything because ICE does not communicate about its air operations at all, unless they feel like it because they want to brag about it or because they're ordered to by courts. These flights to me seem particularly alarming as possible flights where there could have been third country removals that we don't even know about. And Marissa Cavas, she's an independent reporter who has a site called The Hand Basket. At the end of April, she reported that there was a third country removal that hasn't gotten a lot of attention. And I don't know why, because it's really messed up. A third country removal of an Iraqi man to Rwanda, which happened on April 4th. After he legally migrated to the U.S., he was accused of murder in Iraq. There's

Starting point is 00:55:07 incontrovertible evidence proving that he did not commit this crime. He wasn't even in Iraq when it happened. But the Biden administration continued with his removal. And because he couldn't go back to Iraq because he would have been executed, they had been looking for a safe third country for him. They did not finish that when they handed the keys over to the Trump administration. So on April 4th, he was removed to Rwanda. And he has a lot of media contacts and no one has heard from him. I have not seen a report about him. I tried to contact his family, it was unsuccessful. I contacted his attorney and didn't hear back.

Starting point is 00:55:53 So ATS operated a flight. It began at about 1130 on April 2nd to this Fort Worth airport that's right next to an ICE detention center, San Juan, Senegal, and then landed in Nairobi. Now, Nairobi is not Kigali in Rwanda, but they're only about an hour apart. And if you look at the flight data, the aircraft at that point had been operating for about 23 hours straight, which is stretching the boundaries of legality, even if you have two crews. So there's a lot of reasons why ICE might have taken him to Nairobi and then done something else for the last leg. I think the most likely explanation is that the crew had to rest and ICE decided that they didn't want to wait. So they may have chartered a local puddle jumper to take them over the lake to Kigali.

Starting point is 00:56:54 It's pretty common, I think, when I flew into Kigali, I think I've stopped in Kinshasa and Nairobi. I don't know if it's a big plane can't land there or it's just the kind of the way it works. Fewer people are flying to Kigali directly from the US or Europe than are going to places like King's Castle in Nairobi. So it might just be that they don't do direct flights. But yeah, I don't think I've ever done a direct big plane flight. Right. It seems that the only aircraft going in and out of there are going to Nairobi and Kampala. And from there

Starting point is 00:57:25 you connect somewhere else. Yeah, it's a pretty small airport. So yeah, that's ATS. They've kind of flown under the radar because Global X is doing so much more in terms of numbers. But I think it's quite possible that ATS's mission for the past few months has been to sort of pilot program small amounts of third country removals to these different countries, just like Omar Amin, because after Omar Amin was sent to Rwanda, the State Department sent a cable that Marissa Cabas obtained saying, oh man, it totally worked. This is great. Let's send 10 more people. At a cost of $100,000 per head, right?

Starting point is 00:58:10 Right. Again, maybe suggesting incarceration. $100,000 is going to cover more than your paperwork. Right. And just to be clear about the cost, all of these military flights that have been flying around Africa now doing ISIS dirty work, those cost about $28,500 an hour to operate.

Starting point is 00:58:33 And of course, cost is the least important thing here. But my God, you know, for an administration that claims to care about government waste. Yeah, this is ridiculous. We don't know how much they're paying people in South Sudan or the monarchy of Eswatini. We don't know what they're sort of bribing these people to accept. I just checked with Mauritania. It's currently a level three state department travel warning, telling people to reconsider travel due to terrorism and crime. That's why we're sending people, I have explained the many and varied human rights abuses that have happened in Mauritania on the show before. So you can go back and listen to other episodes.

Starting point is 00:59:14 You wanna hear about those. Hundreds of Mauritanians, if not thousands, entered the United States in the tail end of the Biden administration. I'm thinking like it was late summer of 2023 when I recall seeing many of them just in my work down at the border. We often get very hot, like September's, October's

Starting point is 00:59:34 in Southern California. A few times I've come across Mauritanian people who were in really bad shape just during those sort of hot months. And so it's always stuck with me that like some of the stories they had were horrific from the country. And I'm sure that it's some of those people who are now being sent back.

Starting point is 00:59:51 And just the fact that they tried to leave will have made things even worse for them. So yeah. Yeah, I mean, these flights going to Mauritania, which includes one of the military flights last week, you know, slavery still exists in Mauritania. There's a minimum of 90,000 people there who are still enslaved. That's the low end of the estimates.

Starting point is 01:00:15 And you know, it's been illegal since 1981, but the practice is really protected by a culture of secrecy, not just among Mauritanian elites, but the multinational corporations who are embedded there and will just kind of look the other way while they're, you know, extract natural resources with people in the mines that like, they're not really going to check if they're enslaved or not. So, you know, maybe we're doing third country deportations and removals there. Maybe we're just sending Mauritanians back to a really horrible place. Yeah. And it doesn't matter, right? We're sending people back to a place where they are very likely to be tortured to be, as you say, like forced to unfree labor, to be incarcerated without having committed a crime. Doesn't really matter where those people are born.

Starting point is 01:01:08 It's fucked. The embassy doesn't let us people drive around Mauritania at night to be in the capital. They can only walk in certain places. Give an idea of like how this double standard is applied. Talking of multinational corporations, I would love to hear from some. Let's do that now. All right, we are back and we were talking about the safety of private jets. Some of these flights have some pretty horrific safety practices, right? And this like, when you

Starting point is 01:01:41 mentioned this, it instantly reminded me of a thing that I have had no luck trying to sell stories on for four years. It is standard practice for ICE and CBP to transport children in their custody without proper child seats or other restraints, right? Which is, you know, to my knowledge, you can get a ticket for that in someints, right? Which is, you know, to my knowledge, you can get a ticket for that in some states, right? Like if you're driving a child, like put a little two-year-old in the seat

Starting point is 01:02:11 without a, like a child seat that they have to have, like rightfully, you're endangering that person's life. But apparently our government's doing it every day. Yeah, I mean, the law doesn't apply to the upholders of the law, right? Yeah, many such cases. Many such cases, which I'm about to explain more. Yeah, let's learn some more.

Starting point is 01:02:29 So these ICE flights, most of these are happening on larger jets, A320s, Boeing 737s. Inside the cabin, ProPublica has done some really good reporting on this from April. There's another outlet called Capital in Maine that also did a terrific story in 2021. And the University of Washington also has a lot of research and information

Starting point is 01:02:52 on what it's like inside the cabin of these planes. And as a former flight attendant, I find it fucking disgusting and really unsafe. Flight attendants on these flights are not allowed to look at or speak to migrant passengers. They aren't allowed to serve them food or water. All of the migrants on these flights are shackled, wrist to ankles, and some of them, if they're loud or distressed or just annoying the ice guards are wrapped in restraint blankets and harnesses and have hoods put over their faces.

Starting point is 01:03:29 Just this morning, JJNDC, one of the ice air trackers on Blue Sky posted a video of a migrant passenger in a hood being loaded onto an Avelo jet in Seattle. And he's being pushed by three ice guards and falls to the ground face first. And then they just sort of manhandle him back up the stairs. Yeah. So, you know, as a former flight attendant, I just want to say in the event of an emergency, how the fuck is a flight attendant supposed to evacuate the passengers in 90 seconds when their seat belts are getting tangled in their handcuffs and all they

Starting point is 01:04:06 can do is shuffle down the aisle. When they can't see because they have a hood over their head. If the cabin loses pressure, how can they reach up for their oxygen masks? When their handcuffs are attached by a chain to their leg irons, how are they going to get the mask on themselves if they're wearing a hood? How are they going to get the mask on themselves if they're wearing a hood? How are they going to get their life vests on when they can't reach back to wrap the strap around their waists? And these emergencies are not theoretical. We know from court filings that between 2014 and 2021, there were six emergency evacuations of ICE air flights. Of those incidents, the evacuation times of only two are known, and they took two and a half minutes and seven minutes.

Starting point is 01:04:52 And to be clear, we only know about those evacuations because of lawsuits. So there may very well have been more evacuations since 2021, and we just don't know about it. Yeah. I mean, it's likely, right? Like, the Biden administration did a mass, especially when they were deporting Haitian people, like, huge numbers of flights. Right.

Starting point is 01:05:12 And until May and June, September 21, when Biden did the Haitian mass deportation, that was the highest amount of deportations that Witness at the Border has recorded. Yeah. That was also the last time I was able to write about Biden's administration policy for NBC. I think I crossed a line saying something mean about Uncle Joe. Yeah, but we should be very clear. This has been a bipartisan thing. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So on each of these flights there is generally one or

Starting point is 01:05:47 two ICE officials and at least 15 ICE contracted guards. Migrant passengers have reported being verbally, physically, and sexually abused by these guards and flight attendants on board have no power to stop them. In 2017, 92 migrant passengers traveling from the US to Ethiopia were left shackled on a plane in Dakar, Senegal for 23 hours because the crew timed out. They were kicked, dragged, tied up, threatened by ice guards, and when the labs filled up, they soiled themselves. Flight attendants report that the guards on these flights regularly ignore their safety commands and will even, you know, try and narc on them. They'll complain to the flight attendant supervisors at their airlines when they're asking people to follow federal aviation regulations, just like

Starting point is 01:06:45 everyone else in America has to do. But when flight attendants have complained to the FAA about this, the FAA defers to ICE. You know, this is not just a matter of like, it's disrespectful to flight attendants. You know, this is extremely dangerous. And one of the most important parts of aviation safety is something called crew resource management, or CRM. This is something that all pilots and flight attendants are trained in every year and have to retrain every year. And basically, CRM boils down to pilots

Starting point is 01:07:20 need to listen to the flight attendants about safety. And flight attendants are trained to be assertive with the pilots about safety. This was developed after a notorious incident in the 1970s where a plane was on the ground. It was filling up with smoke and the pilot ignored flight attendants pleased to evacuate, you know, just for some light garden variety sexism probably. And everyone on board died of smoke inhalation, 280 people. So after that, crews are trained every year to really flatten the hierarchies.

Starting point is 01:07:53 You know, I think people think like, oh, the captain has four epaulettes and the first officer has three and, you know, oh, hierarchy. No, air crews are actually very, like the hierarchies are flattened intentionally on purpose. They train to flatten it across job titles, across gender, education, racial, cultural divides because it is safer to fly that way. When everyone feels that, you know, they have a stake in safety and they'll be heard if they say something about safety, everyone

Starting point is 01:08:27 else is safer. Yeah. So if you've got these ICE guards stepping into the middle of that, throwing their weight around, overruling flight attendants and pilots, and the FAA isn't backing them up, you have confusion about who's in power on board, you have a total breakdown of CRM, and so beyond just like people physically being able to get off of the planes, this is so unsafe to have this kind of environment with these guards. So the last incident I want to talk about was in June 17. To me, this is the scariest one of all of the safety incidents.

Starting point is 01:09:07 There was an ice air emergency. This flight landed. It was filling up with smoke. This is almost just like the plane in the 70s. The flight attendants told the pilots to evacuate, and the pilots ignored them. A bunch of people on board were hospitalized. We don't know how many or who, but frankly, everyone on board could have died from smoke

Starting point is 01:09:28 inhalation very easily. And I really think you can point to the presence of the ICE guards here as a big factor in the failure to evacuate. That is not how pilots are trained. So again, yeah, if you're a flight attendant or pilot, and you do not want your airline to contract with ICE, now is the time to tell them. Tell your union, help flight attendants for Global X and Avelo get jobs somewhere else. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:57 You know, do whatever you can to slow this down because it is all about to increase if they get their way. Yeah. Geez. That is fucking bleak. Yeah. Yeah, you said it's going to get bigger. Like, let's talk about that. Like, can you kind of zoom out and explain ICE-AIR to us? And like we've talked about these small flights a lot, but like that's not the bulk of the flights that they do, right?

Starting point is 01:10:21 Right. So ICE-AIR right now has 12 large jets, you know, A320, 737s chartered from different airlines that they're using for their deportations. And then these private jets are, you know, used less for these smaller high-risk deportations. They're running like 30, 35 flights a day at this point. So May 20th turned out to be like kind of a big day for ICE Air because that was the Djibouti flight. That was when ATS started using the Tyson call sign. It's also the day that the larger operations really just surged in activity. And you know, the other flight trackers tell me that ICE Air used to take weekends and holidays off and they don't do that anymore.

Starting point is 01:11:06 They were deporting people on Juneteenth and July 4th. In May, ICE operated a record number of flights, which was at least 1,083 flights that flight trackers recorded, 190 of which were removal flights. And then the rest are like these internal shuffle flights between different ICE detention centers and return trips. And then in June, they set a record again with 1,187 flights, of which 209 were removal flights. All of this data is at witnessattheborder.org,

Starting point is 01:11:43 and it's kept by Tom Cartwright, who is a real hero. He has been tracking flights basically by himself for five and a half years. And he publishes very detailed monthly reports. And yeah, as you said earlier, he's been tracking this through the Biden administration too, which is how we know that the Trump deportation machine from the first term, you know, Biden didn't really slow it down that much. And now Trump is picking up the reins again and surging it again. So the airlines right now that are flying these larger removal flights are Global X, also called Global Crossing Airlines, Avelo Airlines, Eastern Air, and On The International. And except for ATS, who I talked about earlier,

Starting point is 01:12:38 has their own contract, all of these carriers who fly for ICE are subcontracted through a flight broker called CSI Aviation. CSI Aviation signed a five-year contract with the Biden administration last year. That has been paused because of a lawsuit from a rival flight broker that wanted that contract. So since late February, CSI has been

Starting point is 01:13:02 brokering these flights on a six-month no-bid contract that started at $128 million and was quickly doubled and then went up to $274 million. And then just a couple of days ago, I don't think anyone else has reported this, it was raised again to $339 million. So they've got about $60 million left on this contract for the next six weeks. That's before the huge windfall in funding that ICE just got from Trump's big, beautiful bill. Right.

Starting point is 01:13:34 The administration has said it wants to triple deportations. Right now, they just don't have the aircraft for that. DHS on Twitter and Instagram, a couple days ago, they posted this really ghoulish meme that said fire up the deportation planes. And there was like a skeleton lifting weights with a caption that said, my body is a machine that turns ICE funding into mass deportations. So that's gross. Yeah, that was really weird. They've been doing a lot of this like poster stuff. Right. Like I said, they only have 12 jets right now and they're flying those at

Starting point is 01:14:12 capacity. So they can't triple deportations unless they start bringing in more airlines. So the other day I posted a call to action to flight attendants and to flight attendant unions saying, you know, if you don't want your airline to do these flights, now is the time to tell them. CSI Aviation is run by a man named Alan Way and his daughter, Deborah Mastis. Alan Way is the former chair of the New Mexico Republican Party. He's hosted a bunch of Trump rallies over the years. He ran unsuccessfully for Senate and governor of New Mexico in the past on an anti-immigrant platform,

Starting point is 01:14:53 which local media at the time pointed out, well, you're mostly doing deportation flights, so that would really be enriching yourself. His daughter, Deborah Macy's, was one of the fake electors in New Mexico during the 2020 election. Wow. Yeah, she was subpoenaed by the House committee investigating the January 6th insurrection. And the New Mexico State Attorney General's Office investigated her. Eventually they did not press charges because she and the other fake electors claimed they

Starting point is 01:15:26 didn't know their fake certifications were going to be used for anything illegal. And the project on government oversight has some pretty good reporting on CSI aviation if you want to see that. Yeah. Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. Like, yeah, insane. Like this whole thing is just like complete. I would watch or look at some of the footage

Starting point is 01:15:47 from inside deportation flights, because it is inhumane. Yeah. I mean, I hope that any flight attendants who are forced to work these flights can find a way to quit. But if they can't quit for financial reasons, because all of these people are, you know, very underpaid. You know, I hope that they can provide us with more information about what is

Starting point is 01:16:14 going on inside these flights. Yeah, definitely. That would be at least give people a chance to see what their tax dollars are being spent on. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I've been thinking about, you know, terrorism is like a really loaded word that gets misused a lot against black and brown people. But I think that's the right word for all of these removals because they're random, they're violent, they're targeting civilians for a political purpose, and they're designed to frighten the larger population of potential victims. The Trump administration is trying to scare all undocumented immigrants and anyone adjacent to them since a lot of citizens are being arrested too.

Starting point is 01:17:01 Or green card holders, people with buckets of documents are being deported and renditioned right now. Right. And they're saying, you know, they're trying to make them so scared that if they don't self-deport, they could end up in South Sudan. They could end up in Mauritania. You know, that's what this policy is designed to do, is to terrorize the people of this country.

Starting point is 01:17:24 Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty bleak. We have an encrypted email address. So if you are, I guess, a deportation flight attendant, and you would like to talk to someone, I can pass it on to Gideon too, or you might have your own encrypted email address, and you can plug it if you do.

Starting point is 01:17:42 Yeah, you can definitely ble leak to me on Signal. Okay, yeah, nice. We have coolzontipsatprotonmail.com or coolzontipsatproton.me. I believe they both work. It's only encrypted if the address that it's sent from is also encrypted. So in this instance, you would need a ProtonMail or you can cook up your own encryption. Yeah, that would be since you would need a proton male or you can cook up your own encryption. Yeah, that would be the way to get in touch if you want to get in touch. This, this fucking sucks. Like, it's going to be so much more of it in the next couple of years with this budget. Like, this is going to become, it already is an everyday thing. This is going to become even more common. I know they're also like, they're doing some weird shuffle to avoid sanctions with Venezuelan

Starting point is 01:18:26 airlines, right? Yeah, they fly, I believe it is to Honduras and then Venezuela flies their own plane to Honduras to pick them up. Right. Yeah. Cool. I'm sure those people have a great time when they go back to Venezuela. And Venezuela is also offering humanitarian flights for its citizens who are stuck in Mexico right now.

Starting point is 01:18:47 So like, if people want to do something about this, what can they do? The first thing you can do is boycott Avelo Airlines. They are commercial airlines, so don't fly with them. You can write to the airlines you use regularly right now and tell them that if they are considering contracting with ICE not to, that you will boycott them too, you can complain to the FAA about the safety issues

Starting point is 01:19:13 on these flights. I doubt that they'll do anything, but I think there's value in saying something anyway. If you have contacts in aviation or in any of the countries that these people are being sent to. And you find something out, you can link to me on Signal. And if you work in aviation, tell your airline and your union right now that you are not

Starting point is 01:19:34 going to operate these flights. And if you want to get started tracking flights yourself, we need a lot of help, especially in the overnight hours. A good first step is to go to globe.adsbexchange.com and in the general search window type Tyson. You've been doing really, really great reporting on this and I'm sure people want to continue to follow it.

Starting point is 01:19:57 It is a shame that other outlets are not running it, but- God bless them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're just trying their best out there. If you want to know what James is talking about, there's a brief explanation at the end of one of my stories that I've written recently at harjithistory.ghost.io. I have a couple stories there about the recent flights to Africa, and you can read the bottom

Starting point is 01:20:23 and you'll find out what James is talking about. Yep, it's a little teaser for you. Right. Go get the tea. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for joining us. I'm sure we'll hear from you again soon.

Starting point is 01:20:37 Thank you, James. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns.

Starting point is 01:21:11 And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace,

Starting point is 01:21:30 affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. From iHeart Podcasts and RococoPunch, this is The Turning, River Road.

Starting point is 01:21:57 I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him that would be the greatest honor. But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to The Turning, River Road, on the iHeartRadio app,

Starting point is 01:22:46 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American history is full of wise people. Well, women said something like, no, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory. Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they loved to cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history

Starting point is 01:23:18 has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said, it would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American history hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be, an aberration, a symbol

Starting point is 01:23:53 of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why open AI along with other AI companies are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you happen to get your podcasts. It's a good app here with a podcast about, I don't know, how am I supposed to do the

Starting point is 01:24:29 pivot from like it? The Stephen King novel, which could at any point happen in a place where you are. I was trying to get to the podcast coming to you not quite live from a place where a bunch of just masked guys are grabbing people off the street, but that works too Stephen King good pivot haven't done that one yet I'm your host Mia Wong with me is James stout and we're also joined by the wonderful freelance journalists Mel Buer and Yeah, so that happened simultaneously as I inhaled and like apparently a piece of popcorn just like Fucking rail gunned into the back of my throat

Starting point is 01:25:12 We're leaving this all in Also with me is We're all professionals here This is going great Is Trails Revealance Journalist John Patrick Carpich? Oh good lord Thanks for being with us, journalist John Patrick Carpich. Oh, good Lord. I'm so good at my job. So what we're going to be talking about is the continued resistance to ice and ice actions in LA and in sort of broader parts of California as stuff has shifted and intensified.

Starting point is 01:25:40 So both of you two, welcome to the show. Glad to be here. Happy to be here. Happy to be here. So I think the place I want to start is, could you give people just kind of a brief reminder of what happened during that sort of big flare up several weeks ago of protests and ICE actions in LA? I can probably speak a little bit more to that. So as part of the federal immigration raids that Donald Trump promised,

Starting point is 01:26:07 Los Angeles was one of the first targets of pretty large scale and pretty frankly, random immigration raids. So it started in early June where you started to see, you know, masked agents without oftentimes badges or names on their badges or sometimes even serial numbers. First they started in Home Depots, areas like that, just sort of running around parking lots, tackling people and throwing them into buses. Pretty understandably, Los Angelinos started to protest and they started to protest pretty hard and started to protest and they started to protest pretty hard. And that happened for a few weeks.

Starting point is 01:26:47 Eventually the Marines and the National Guard were both deployed into federal buildings, more large scale protests. And that sort of brings us to the last few weeks, which I think Mel can probably speak to. Yeah. So, you know, the National Guard and the Marines were deployed like mid-June, right? Yeah. And we kind of saw a little bit of petering out of like the mass protests that we saw

Starting point is 01:27:13 at the beginning of June, but still there were a number of organizations and groups that were trying to keep tabs on the sort of roving patrols that were happening in Los Angeles throughout the month of June and early July so these groups were taking in tips and Trying to maintain a sort of map of rapid response locations to the ice detainments kidnappings suspension of constitutional rights, if you will. And so what we saw was a good number of weeks of social media sort of proliferating these

Starting point is 01:27:53 posts about where ICE patrols had gone. And because the, and this is something that organizations have spoken to in the last couple of weeks, but because their counter surveillance, I suppose you could say by these organizations was pretty successful the sort of ice patrols began to not happen throughout the later half of the day they would happen early in the morning they would you know hit a location grab as many people as possible pull them into the van and take them away and they had gotten it down to something like less than 10 minutes that they were on scene. And it made it a little bit difficult for folks to be able to respond forcefully to

Starting point is 01:28:34 those events. And they kept it to parking lots, car washes, you know, businesses, random street vendors, places that they could enter quickly and leave quickly. We saw in the middle of June and the later half of the month that if they were trying to execute warrants, for example, in a neighborhood, they would be blocked in almost immediately by neighbors. So you can see that there was a pretty consistent response by Angelino's across the board as much as they could. And while this was happening, there was also a pretty dedicated group of individuals who

Starting point is 01:29:10 were spending a lot of time outside the Metro Detention Center downtown and downtown LA, which is where many of these vans were going in and out of before they were taking detainees elsewhere. Yeah. So, you know, across the board, what we've seen is quite a bit of organizing. Much of this organizing is decades in the making, especially in Los Angeles,

Starting point is 01:29:32 but also in places like Ventura County and a little bit up north, where you see the same kind of work that's being done. In the later half of the month, early July, I should say, we began to see some pretty intense movements by Border Patrol, most notably in MacArthur Park on July 8th I believe, and in the Camarillo-Oxnard area, which is right on the border of Ensha'ar County and other counties name escapes me, at two cannabis farms that next week.

Starting point is 01:30:09 And those were large scale operations, a lot of militarized border patrol, National Guard, I believe helped with both of those operations as well. And also saw some pretty intense community response to those. Sean, you mentioned you wanted to talk a little more about the organizing, right? Like the way people had organized to try and kind of resist this or at least like do what they could. One of the things that I think is interesting, this isn't unique to Los Angeles. We're seeing groups organize what I've been hearing called

Starting point is 01:30:43 Negro Patrols here in Los Angeles. There's also pretty heavy touch of this from San Diego. One of the things that I thought was really really interesting was in Los Angeles has been preparing for a moment like this since the late 60s frankly. You know you have groups that have a pretty solid through line since the mid 60s at the dawn of the Chicano movement and these are groups that already have experience with large-scale detainments not throughout the city like we were seeing the last few weeks but there's this really impressive level of organization where you know I saw a detainment in Boyle Heights of a gentleman who was accused

Starting point is 01:31:26 of hitting a police officer. Within I think three minutes of them arriving, not only was there one or two people, but there was like 15 people already on scene. Boyle Heights is pretty singular in its preparation. However, it was not uncommon. In MacArthur Park, there was a detainment of a few people who were walking down the street. I was maybe eight minutes away when I heard about the raid.

Starting point is 01:31:51 There was already like 10 people there, including a college professor, including members of Union Del Barro and attendance union. I have a bit of a theory that I don't know if Los Angeles was chosen because they wanted to prove a point. And there is a part of me that wonders seeing how quickly people are responding to these raids. There's a part of me that wonders if that point was even made.

Starting point is 01:32:16 I think the government's actions can be understood in owning the libs. And if your Facebook uncle got to make government policy, it wouldn't look that different from this. So I think that was certainly like the point early on and they'd have detained a lot of people in LA like but yeah, they're organizing You have very entrenched working-class communities even going back way before the 60s, right? Like if we look at the Zoot Suit, right? We look at the Bracero program and the attempts to expel people after that Like if we look at United Farm workers like across LA County, we have a long history of organizing. So like it's a hard target

Starting point is 01:32:51 for them for sure. And I think it's really interesting listening to you talk about this matches a lot of what I was hearing about the way that it all kind of decentralized in between sort of May and June. And the thing that it reminds me of decentralized in between sort of May and June. And the thing that it reminds me of really interestingly is what was happening to sort of other protest movements but reversed. You know, if you look at like the Palestine encampments, right, where it's okay, you put a bunch of people in one spot and then they all get crushed because the police can bring

Starting point is 01:33:18 overwhelming numbers. And it feels like the raid response has almost been the reverse of that where ISIS had to adopt, at least in that period, had to adopt the sort of hyper mobile in and out like rapid strike kind of thing like because they were suddenly faced with a scenario where like If they tried to like stay in mass in an area it went really badly for them and that's absolutely fascinating to me One of the things that I think is interesting is the first few days you saw a pretty heavy amount of raids sort of in the central corridor near downtown or you know near East Hollywood, things like that. And those were extremely heavily protested. You know, there was a protest

Starting point is 01:33:58 sort of the first day of when the raids really, really started in the garment district or in the fashion district, excuse me. Within minutes, there was like 75 people there. And they were shouting. They were there before all of the vehicles for federal agents were actually there. That's the one where you saw quite a bit of union folks who arrive extremely quickly. And one of the other things that I think

Starting point is 01:34:24 is really interesting about this organizing is you're also seeing regular people who I don't know if they normally would organize something where they're sort of facing off with federal agents. You're starting to see them mobilize in a way that I don't know if you would normally see them. One of the ladies that I spoke to as part of the rapid response network is a teacher. I talked to her and I was like,

Starting point is 01:34:52 hey, why do you do this? She told me, she's like, look, I teach in a heavily immigrant community. My job is to take care of these kids. Unfortunately, now, part of that is driving around the neighborhood and looking for white vans filled with people wearing masks. That's both incredibly moving and beautiful and also one of the most hideous things I've ever heard in my entire life.

Starting point is 01:35:21 There were quite a few teachers at the SEIU rally, which was on the 9th of June, which was with David Huerta, the president of the SEIU was detained, I guess, allegedly for obstructing federal agents, if I recall correctly. Yeah, I met a lot of people who were older, who I think were like solidly liberal in their politics but not particularly radical. And it was a really interesting combination of these older people who are outraged and somewhat inexperienced in street politics and younger people who are outraged and somewhat inexperienced in street politics.

Starting point is 01:35:55 Like it wasn't the same crowd that you see the people who I'd seen in 2020 when I covered stuff in L.A. haven't really covered much of the Palestine stuff in LA, but a lot of the people who I interviewed in June were citizen children of non-citizen parents. And like they felt like an obligation on behalf of their community and their family to show up. really moving to see people who were clearly very afraid by the third night of like unhinged state violence right like I know Sean was there too but like the amount of like less lethals that were just being discharged by the third night like the protest was split up and so was the policing like there wasn't really ever a point where all the protesters were able to get together because the police had so many roads blocked off and like you would just turn down the street and they'd be firing less lethal you turn down the street

Starting point is 01:36:48 There's tear gas you turn down the street and there's pepper balls like all over downtown LA and these people were very afraid But they still kept coming out and that was quite like inspiring to me Yeah, and I mean, I think that's the situation That we're in right where you know, the sort of the fear and the horror has to, is being forced to give way to action because the only alternative to that is just watching them take your family and take your neighbors and taking the people you love and care about until one day they take you. And it doesn't have to get to there. Yeah, you know what else is going to take you?

Starting point is 01:37:22 Oh God. Specifically take money from your wallet. It's these incredible products and services which we're lucky enough to be able to share with our listeners. We are back. I notably did not want to do an actual pivot there, but we're back. I think, you know, speaking on sort of the climate of Los Angeles and at the same time this sort of insistent joy that Los Angeles has. There's a very famous song, most of your listeners may have heard it, La Chona, which

Starting point is 01:37:55 is basically just a song about a woman who won't listen to her husband and gets drunk. And you see it at every single protest in Los Angeles involving immigrant rights. And one of the interesting things about it is multiple times at the protests, I would see this beginning of dancing to La Chona and then multiple times it would be broken up. I think this was the 13th, mid-June. And eventually it got to a point where I remember saying these protesters seem to really want to listen to this song. And I have a feeling it's going to end up being played in a weird spot. What ended up happening is by the end of it I saw a bunch of people with these gnarly bruises all over their body, you know, welts from less-lethals, fire in the middle of the street, dancing to La Chona.

Starting point is 01:38:51 They finally got their chance. And you know, it's whenever the Dodgers win. This speaks to sort of the specific culture of Los Angeles. I have seen more fires and people dancing around them to that song than any other song including protest songs throughout the last five years. But there's also you know I live in Boyle Heights and one of the really interesting and kind of horrific things is I had sort of been queued up and trained to listen for the Ice Cream Man, both the actual van and there's a guy that does

Starting point is 01:39:25 respados who just walks down the street honks a bicycle horn and I am an actual child and every time I heard that bicycle horn just like I'm sick so just like run out with a wad of cash by respados and for about a week you didn't hear him. A lot of businesses were closed and then after about a week he started to see younger people that looked kind of like the guy that used to do it. You know, usually the son or the daughter sort of working for their parents. Now we're starting to see, you know, a little bit of a more of a return to regularity. But, you know, one of the things that was really interesting about all this organizing is, you know, you have unions. you also have like former politicians and things like that.

Starting point is 01:40:07 You know, I got an email from a former city councilman with the subject line that just said, it is happening here. And I remember thinking that's, that's probably not good. No, yeah. That's not great. Talking of it is happening, I think both you and Amel, you were there. You went up to Camarillo, right? The raid on the Cannabis Grow operation and subsequent standoff.

Starting point is 01:40:35 That was a different scene from DTLA. Can you explain, if people aren't familiar, maybe very briefly explain the operation and the consequences. So Sean and I just sat in federal court for five hours prior to that in downtown LA, where a federal judge was listening to arguments being made in the hopes of getting a temporary restraining order on the grounds that these roving patrols in Los Angeles were unconstitutional. And we left court and one of our sources who is also there at the federal courthouse was talking about how they had heard about this raid happening in Camarillo and Carpinteria, two different cannabis grow houses.

Starting point is 01:41:19 And by the time we left, it had been happening for five hours at that point. So they, under a warrant, had raided both of these cannabis scur operations, which are quite large. We're talking hundreds of workers who work in these processing centers and greenhouses and such. And local organizers, particularly organizers with VC Defensa, which is in Ventura County, who has been doing really successful organizing following ICE vehicles wherever they go to try and head off these roving patrols. They've really thrown a wrench in things up there. One of the organizers was following one of these border patrol

Starting point is 01:41:56 vehicles and watched as the border patrol vehicle drove past the gates of a military base out there. And they kind of got an idea that, okay, something big is happening, this is not normal. Like this is not usually what happens when we follow these cars. Usually they're going into neighborhoods or things of that nature. And so almost immediately, these groups were organizing to try and see where these cars, armored vehicles were going.

Starting point is 01:42:20 And they hit two different locations. One of the locations, the one in Camarillo, just outside of is kind of in the middle of nowhere. It's flanked on all sides with farm fields. There's dirt highways and two lane highways that kind of bisect everything. And what they did when they started this raid is they blocked off the roads leading into and out of this particular greenhouse. And so they had checkpoints like roadblocks, barricades at like four or five different locations at these intersections around the greenhouse. And at every single barricade there were people. So there were these sort of So, you know, there were these sort of like face-offs between heavily militarized border patrol agents kitted out in the nines, you know, everything that you could possibly think

Starting point is 01:43:12 of. They had, you know, these massive vehicles. National Guard helped them, you know, block off these roads. The local police helped them block off these roads, which, you know, if you know about the sheriff in Ventura County, he's one of the only guys who doesn't care about sanctuary state ordinances. So it was a standoff, essentially. And when Sean and I arrived, it was right around dusk.

Starting point is 01:43:35 So you know, it had been many hours since these raids began. And essentially what Border Patrol found is that they couldn't leave because these roads were being blocked off. They got some vans through, but the vast majority of those vehicles were still there and they weren't prepared to be there that long. They had to airdrop supplies, water, food, in order to shore up these folks. And as word got out of the sort of community response to this event more people showed up.

Starting point is 01:44:09 So by the time Sean and I got there, we were driving up Les Poses and suddenly there's cars just parked on either side of the road. And we ended up parking I think like three quarters of a mile away from the nearest blockade and had to hike in because there was no space for cars. You know, I mean, we get up there and it's just about dusk and you can hear the chanting in the distance. And, you know, it was a really horrible and also moving experience to walk up on, you know, community response to this. And you know, the standoff continued for another couple of hours.

Starting point is 01:44:47 But it was, you know, half of the folks there are concerned community members, folks of mixed status families who understand the absolute terror of what happens when the government is chasing after your dad, you know. And also individuals who were looking for parents, uncles, they had no idea where their family members were. I think the total number of people who were detained and are probably going to be deported ended up somewhere around 361 across two farms.

Starting point is 01:45:17 Yeah, it's significant. Absolutely insane. And the standoff lasted for a couple extra hours. Into the night, people turned on their car headlights so that we had light out there. There was you know a pretty solid group of individuals who were in communication with other blockades asking for folks to shift to other locations, sharing supplies and water you know and then border patrols started getting antsy. You could see them playing with their guns, you know, their riot munitions weapons.

Starting point is 01:45:51 They were shifting, they were forming and reforming, and, you know, organizers kind of understood that something was about to happen. So they backed off, strategically retreated because there were marches planned for the next day. They were leaving. I could see off in the distance. I didn't witness this directly until we drove up on it, but you could see off in the distance that all of these cars, this line of cars, was going around the back end of the factory on a side road and then ending up a little bit farther down Les Poses. And

Starting point is 01:46:21 there was flashing lights everywhere. Turns out that they were trying to make their getaway and they hit what I think was probably a traffic jam because folks were ready to go. They had packed up their cars and they were leaving. And they tear gassed everybody so they could make their getaway. So like Sean and I, by the time we drove up on it, because we saw in the distance, it was like that cloud is not normal. This is a dust. Like that's tear gas. Let's get in the car, go see what's going on. We drove up just as the last canisters were being spent on the road and it was just a fog. And people were panicking. You're getting tear gas in your freaking car, man. It was pretty intense. Not a great experience.

Starting point is 01:47:03 And, you know, it was pretty, pretty intense, not a great experience. Yeah, I saw some videos from downtown LA on the first day of protests. Manish Sean was there covering it. They had agents in gas masks in their vehicles and they were tear gassing in front. And then that seems to have been like their protocol, right? They will just tear gas the fuck out of the block

Starting point is 01:47:19 and then we'll wear our gas masks inside our vehicles and leave. But I wanted to explain, people, I've seen this a lot, will be wondering why Border Patrol were in Ventura. So like just to clarify or Oxnard or wherever they were at, the United States border isn't just a land border. Like the United States has four edges, just like, well, that's lots of edges, but you know, just like anything that's a big square, right? The ocean is a border too, and Border Patrol has this somewhat arbitrary 100 mile enforcement zone in which they operate.

Starting point is 01:47:47 So when you see Border Patrol operating a long way from a land border, that's because they are still within 100 miles of a border, to include the Great Lakes up north. Most of the United States population lives inside a Border Patrol enforcement zone. Right. So, you know, you won't see as many, unless there are warrants to be served, for example, in Omaha, Nebraska, where there was a raid on a factory there that was a warrant investigation. Generally speaking, though, yeah, that's why you see it in Boston, in Chicago, in Florida, and in most of California lives, you know, with inside that border.

Starting point is 01:48:27 And so, you know, the thing that I can say is that that next day, when we went up and spoke to organizers kind of got the skinny on how they were able to mobilize so quickly. As we were leaving that march, you know, a federal judge issued a temporary restraining order in Los Angeles County. Seven cities, I think, that were party to the suit. It's not just Los Angeles County. It's the entire district of the CBD. Thank you. Yes. Yeah, it was quite a few cities filed suit as well as the ACLU, United Farm Workers, several individual plaintiffs, which blocks them essentially from having a large-scale raid with no warrant. So a judge basically told them, hey, you have to

Starting point is 01:49:14 have a reason to be stopping and detaining people. The judge, I don't want to read too much into a judge's personal thoughts, but it became pretty clear even when they were having the hearing that the judge had pretty much had her own concerns that I don't think were even in the filings. And it also, B18 is essentially the basement in a federal building, which is where a significant amount of the people are being held. And it forced them to allow lawyers access as well as a lot of them were essentially in these rooms that were like 50 to 60 people.

Starting point is 01:49:48 And there was one phone in the middle of it. So they were not getting private counsel. And with the restraining order, which I believe ends time next week, now they actually have to provide, you know, access to lawyers, you know, basic constitutional stuff. Yeah, man, let me tell you, it was really, really bizarre to sit in a federal hearing. Now, look, I've read transcripts from other reporters who listen in on these federal immigration issue hearings that we've had over the last six months.

Starting point is 01:50:21 It is a whole other experience to be sitting in a courtroom with your little notepad, listening to the government's lawyers try and make the case that, no, we're not actually racially profiling people here. We are just stopping them based on their appearance, facial expressions, what they're wearing, potentially the language that they choose to speak.

Starting point is 01:50:43 And all of us sitting in the gallery are like, okay, you actually made that argument in open court. Cool. You know what I mean? Like, absolutely insane to hear that come out of a DOJ lawyer's mouth where they're like, we take umbrage with the fact that you're saying that we're racial profiling. By the way, here's all the things that we are doing, which is essentially profiling people. So the TRO is essentially just enforcing the Fourth Amendment, which is saying you cannot conduct these roving patrols and stop people without probable cause or warrant. You just can't do it. And what that's done is we have seen much less of the immigration enforcement activity that was a feature of June and early July. And it's kind of moving to the periphery.

Starting point is 01:51:31 I know that there are things happening in San Diego, James, and we've seen some potential reports out of Sacramento. We've seen reports up north in San Francisco, you know, in terms of the enforcement zone in California. We're also seeing ramping up immigration activities in places like Chicago and other cities, Utah, for example. And now, in the last week and a half, we've seen half of the Federalized National Guard be taken off deployment and sent home. And as of today, the 21st of July, they're sending home the Marines,

Starting point is 01:52:03 And as of today, the 21st of July, they're sending home the Marines, you know, which good, right? But it's very clear that whatever they were trying to accomplish in Los Angeles, to make a point, to be a battering ram, to set Los Angeles, which has always kind of been known as the sanctuary city and the surrounding area as like the

Starting point is 01:52:26 example of what immigration enforcement activity in this new era of Trump 2.0, what have you, will look like. And ultimately, I don't think they were successful. I mean, you look at the raid in MacArthur Park, for example, where it was meant to be this big operation, ostensibly to try and crack down on fake ID processing. Sean can talk to more of the context around MacArthur Park than I can. But they showed up and organizers had already cleared the park. You know, we were there for two and a half hours before they even showed up and we watched as organizers put

Starting point is 01:53:01 up signs, they were sitting at the Home Depot, at the street, making sure the folks knew that there might be a raid today. Organizers had combed through the entire park and said, this might happen today. If you're of mixed status or your status is not one with papers, you might want to go home. They cleared the soccer field, which had 45 people playing soccer on it. And so by the time these armored vehicles are running down the street and doing all of their theater, there's no one there at all. You know, there's journalists, there's us, you know?

Starting point is 01:53:34 There's a couple of unhoused folks who said, you know, screw that, I don't want to leave. But the vast majority of people had already gone. And so all that they got out of it was a really shitty hype video and a mayor and a governor who were like really really pissed off and you know a city that's just not gonna just roll over and let this kind of crap happen you know. And I think that's really emblematic of like what's been going on in Los Angeles for the last six weeks is they did not get the response that they were expecting. And they weren't prepared

Starting point is 01:54:08 for that response. And for that to be a continuous response to unconstitutional, oppressive, violent actions by ICE and by the agencies that are enabling ice so yeah you know. When we say city we should like be clear that we're referring to like the city quality community non city like as government entity right there really hasn't been any. Send me here in san diego at san diego police department can't you don't assist ice but they do show up to like. technically don't assist ICE, but they do show up to like form a cordon around them, right? Like to prevent any confrontation between them and protesters. And we saw like every police agency, like literally every police agency in LA County and also Ventura County sheriffs were there for the biggest protest days.

Starting point is 01:54:58 The city hasn't used its resources in that sense to stop this, right? They've made rhetorical statements, but they haven't done anything with their police. Yeah. And I think this speaks to a kind of larger thing, which is that like these people thought they could just come into cities around the country and just shock and all everyone and roll everyone over because like they think they're the Nazis. But the thing about the Nazis is that like people supported them, right? Like all the shit the Nazis were able to do happened because people wanted it to happen.

Starting point is 01:55:25 And in a country where people don't want that shit to happen, where everyone looks at this and goes, what the fuck is going on? Where like, it's like 79% support for like the effects of immigration on the US right now, where everyone's looking at this and just being like, no, they can't do it. There aren't enough of them. I don't know. Like it's just so stunning to me watching them like have to do the tactical adaptations that like normally like protest groups have to do because the cops have tuned in more resources than them

Starting point is 01:55:50 but they're having to do it because there's just like every single person walking down the street is like fuck you eat shit and so they're just like outnumbered everywhere they go it's and that's not to say it's not like fucking horrible because yeah, resisting fascism fucking sucks a lot of the time and a lot of people get hurt and it's hideous and also it's what has to be done. The last thing that I wanted to ask is, so with the injunction kind of like coming to an end soon, what do you think is the future of sort of what ICE is going to be doing and what the response is going to be and what

Starting point is 01:56:30 Border Patrol are doing in the sort of month to come? It's hard to say. One of the things that I'm curious about is we won't really know what the federal government's plan is until I think it's the, we'll just say late July when the next hearing is. So the temporary restraining order ends in late July. Generally speaking with temporary restraining orders on law enforcement, what you see is they either continue while the hearings commence or you see a pretty large mountain of evidence that says, hey, we did this, this this and this that's changed it.

Starting point is 01:57:08 So we're now sort of in cooperation with the order. That is likely one of the reasons why we've seen fewer raids here in Los Angeles. Ultimately, a temporary restraining order is, I don't want to call it a wild or extreme action at all, but those are generally signed when a judge agrees that it is extremely likely that given the current situation, the plaintiffs have a case. So unless the federal government comes by with like this gigantic mountain of new training and all these new plans and things like that. My guess is we'll probably see at least some of the things in that temporary restraining order continue. I also think it's possible that the federal government is just going to say, you know what, this temporary restraining order only applies to this specific area. We'll just go somewhere else.

Starting point is 01:58:02 It's the central district of California, right? So like San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura, L.A. Riverside County as well, I think. Riverside. Yeah, it doesn't include San Diego. It doesn't include the northern district, which is most of the rest of coastal California or the eastern district, which is most of the valley and further northeast in California. So, yeah, it's perfectly possible they could go somewhere else and still do their shit within California. Or like you say, like, there are so

Starting point is 01:58:30 many targets, right? Because immigrants are part of the fabric of our society. They are everywhere. And thus, you know, they can just go for wherever they think a soft target is. That's also worth noting that, you know, these organizers are going to continue to organize. So these groups, the Central CSO and Union Del Barrio and the various other groups, again, have been around for decades. VC Defensa has been around since 2016. This is only a portion of the organizing that they do. They didn't start with or they will not end with just these patrols, right?

Starting point is 01:59:06 So they've built out infrastructure and mutual aid group networks that are buying groceries for folks and mixed status families that are covering the sort of bills that are not being paid because people are too afraid to go to work. They're doing childcare, they're getting kids to school, they're trying to provide legal defense. You know, like these are coalitions of individuals who live in these areas who are doing long-term organizing to shore up the community, whether or not there is an onslaught of immigration enforcement activity in a certain geographical area. So in terms of organizing, it's just going to keep happening. And that's good, right? And I think that what's

Starting point is 01:59:47 heartening to see after the last seven weeks of really intense, really scary, really horrifying kidnappings and detainments on the streets in Southern California is an equal and often more stronger response to it from the community that reminds you that this is not the end and folks are prepared for picking up the slack when things fall through. People are not falling through the cracks. People are not having their lives shattered without someone watching and trying to help. So that's an important piece there. So I would say that in terms of the response and what happens next, it's a multi-front thing. You have these legal cases finding their way through the courts.

Starting point is 02:00:35 You have from all levels, right? And you have individuals who are trying to keep track of folks who have been detained and deported and sending money back to to Mexico or whatever, you know, other country that these folks are being sent back to, making sure that things are as much as they can, you know, there aren't any rips in the safety net. And I think that's the main lesson of the last seven weeks is like that sort of response is incredible and you can replicate it anywhere that you are. A lot of folks like to kind of roll their eyes at the idea of like, organizing starts with talking to your neighbor. No, actually it does.

Starting point is 02:01:12 And there's these models, especially in Southern and Central California, where this organizing works. It's not particularly ideological in many ways, as sometimes it is, but the basic function of it is to make sure that your neighbor doesn't fall into a hole, right? And they'll do the same for you, so you don't fall into a hole should something happen to you. So, you know, start there and take a look at these models that these absolute fucking heroes, pardon my language, are doing in this area and know that you can also do that. So yeah, these people in every facet of this are just you somewhere else or hell, maybe

Starting point is 02:01:51 they are literally you. I don't know. If it is you, hell yeah, keep up the good work. Sean, do you want to explain to us very briefly the FBI arrests and the case against at least one of the Centro CSO members? Well, right now there's only one criminal complaint, and that's for Alejandro Oriana, who is accused of conspiracy to commit civil disorder as well as aiding and abetting a conspiracy to commit civil disorder. The criminal complaint, all it really says is that he gave a dispense with face shields

Starting point is 02:02:31 to protestors who were dressed like they might do something bad. At no point during the criminal complaint does it even say, hey, he handed it to a guy, and then that guy committed a crime. It doesn't even go that far. It just goes, ah, those guys look kind of, I don't know, they look like they're about to do something. And it says that, you know, these people were dressed in such a way where it might interfere with law enforcement activities, like, you know, it would deaden the impact of

Starting point is 02:03:00 left-leafle weapons. Yeah, I mean, the impact of wet, sleepable weapons on your face is potentially fatal. Yeah. And, you know, beyond that, you know, there was a search warrant for another member of Centro CSO who was roughly handled by FBI agents on a walk through the park and was given a search warrant and her phone was taken. I asked the U.S. Attorney's office if they were related. And first was told, I don't

Starting point is 02:03:27 know what you're talking about, which I thought was a little interesting. Never gotten that response from any official. And then a few hours later, got an official response that said, no, it is another case. So what that means, time will tell. But I think it's likely that there will be more to come on top of that. I think it's interesting to note that the first arraignment for Oriana was an absolutely packed court in support of them. Where can people find you two's work and where can people support you as you do a whole bunch of incredibly critical journalism on the continuing resistance to the fascist

Starting point is 02:04:02 deportation campaign? A lot of my reporting goes to Blue Sky. So you can find me at melburebluesky.social. I have a newsletter, wordsaboutwork.blog, and you can also find me on my Instagram. My link tree is linked in all sorts of places. So you can find all those links in one convenient place. Including the description of this episode. Yay. But yeah, those are the places where you can find me. You can find me on ACAT with news on all social media platforms. Although most of my sort of breaking stories come on Blue Sky first. And I'm a freelance journalist.

Starting point is 02:04:39 So usually you can just Google my name and you'll see some stories there on my Blue Sky and Instagram. There's a link tree if you want to support. Hell yeah. And to everyone listening to this show, always remember, ye are many, they are few. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown.

Starting point is 02:05:26 There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

Starting point is 02:05:48 The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 02:06:11 From iHeart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor. But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to The Turning, River Road, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your

Starting point is 02:07:08 podcasts. American history is full of wise people. Well women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory. Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they loved to cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.

Starting point is 02:07:45 And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said. It would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American history hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show, better offline, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why open AI along with other AI companies are

Starting point is 02:08:23 dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts. Pedophile is the correct pronunciation going into this, just for. And that's the sentence we're starting the episode with. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast where we teach you how to pronounce the word

Starting point is 02:08:55 pedophile or pedophile or pedophili. You're Greek, you know? That's not how the Greeks say it. I'm not doing any of this. I'm crying. Ooh. Welcome to the show. We're talking about some breaking news

Starting point is 02:09:14 about Friend of the Pod, Carly Rae Jepstein, a joke I did on the Behind the Bastards episodes about Epstein that nobody liked, least of all the lawyers. I don't like that either. No, me neither. It wasn't even really really a joke just something I shouldn't have said yeah So this is all barely breaking news because this is stuff that we've known about for like ever none of this is a mystery We're not gonna be blowing any minds here that Jeffrey Epstein

Starting point is 02:09:38 Sexually trafficked and molested children or that Donald Trump probably did as well Oh, well, he didn't do the trafficking, but you know, he was a party to it. Yeah. Allegedly, you know, being alleged by a lot of people. Rupert Murdoch, one of them. By Rupert Murdoch, who is currently being sued for $10 million in his capacity

Starting point is 02:09:57 as owner of the Wall Street Journal. So on July 17th, 2025, at 6.45 PM Eastern Standard Time, the Wall Street Journal published an article 15th, 2025 at 6.45 PM Eastern Standard Time, the Wall Street Journal published an article with the title, Jeffrey Epstein's friends sent him body letters for a 50th birthday album. One was from Donald Trump. Body is one way to describe it. Body is one way to describe it.

Starting point is 02:10:18 Yes, yes indeed. It's really good to see a leftist outlet like Wall Street Journal take this thing head on. Yeah, yeah. Finally, yes. I've had my, you know, being hardline Marxists as they are. That doesn't fully gel with my own beliefs, but you have to respect them in this instance. You know, I'm not as much of a Stalinist as the Wall Street Journal, famed Stalinists. That's why they've cancelled us, because they're too woke. The little red book published by the Wall Street Journal.

Starting point is 02:10:46 Big mouth fans. The Wall Street Journal templates imprint. They've got History Will Absolve Me, they've got The Little Red Book. Yeah, they've got a beautiful leather bound edition of Ted Kaczynski's manifesto. Speaking of letter bound editions, Gillan Maxwell, I think this initially came out because it was a a Spanish

Starting point is 02:11:09 Like small scale publisher that published that put out this like leather bound book for Gillan For to give to Jeffrey and God do I want to see the whole copy because I am curious to do well submitted letters But during the FBI investigation and everything around Epstein this was found and it got leaked out to the Wall Street Journal. I think the New York Times has now seen it. So they're not the only people who have seen it. So you've got a piece of paper and there is a drawing that may or may not have been done by Trump, but is alleged by some to have been done by Trump, although he denies this, having said that he has never written a picture in his life, but it's like a silhouette of a naked woman and then Donald Trump's signature where pubic hair would be.

Starting point is 02:11:52 Right? Classy man. Yeah. Our current president. Our current president. Yeah, yeah. The guy with the nuclear codes. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:12:01 Great stuff. And then the actual text on the letter is written in the form of like a dialogue, right? So it's like written as like a fake script of a conversation between Trump and Epstein. Voice over, there must be more to life than having everything. Donald, yes there is, but I won't tell you what it is. Jeffrey, nor will I, since I also know what it is.

Starting point is 02:12:25 Donald, we have certain things in common, Jeffrey. Jeffrey, yes we do, come to think of it. Donald, enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? Jeffrey, as a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you. Trump, a pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday, and may every day

Starting point is 02:12:42 be another wonderful secret. The thing I need the listener to understand about this episode right that is not the most Incriminating thing Donald Trump is going to say in this episode. It's not even close to it It is very funny. This could hardly be more direct if the letter was just Jeffrey I love being a pedophile with you love Donald Trump right like like that's less He has gone further He's just saying it So the Wall Street Journal publishes this and they publish this with like the least bit of editorializing that they can right they're being very

Starting point is 02:13:19 Careful with this Trump loses his fucking mind and this is obviously coming on the heels I probably should have started this been important this is obviously coming on the heels, or probably should have started with this, but the important context is this is coming on the heels of Pam Bondi and the Justice Department announcing, actually everything's cool. And we're like not gonna be dropping any more info on Epstein.

Starting point is 02:13:36 There's no client list or anything after Bondi hit earlier this year. Been like, I have the Epstein client list on my desk. And they handed out the Epstein papers, you know, release one, these like big binders that fucking the libs of TikTok lady and Jack Psobik and a bunch of other right-wing influencers well walked out of the White House with these big binders being like, aha, we've got it. We've got all the files that are going to put all the dims behind jail. And then a couple of months later, Bondi and the DOJ is like, actually, there's nothing else to tell anybody. We've got nothing. There's nothing interesting at all about Epstein. So then this shit comes out, right? It gets leaked from someone,

Starting point is 02:14:07 presumably someone within the FBI, right? I think that's what we're left to assume at this point. Yeah. Because this was revealed as a part of their investigation, right? This is some of the stuff that was confiscated, you know, when Gill and Maxwell got taken into custody. Okay, so a couple of things have happened since then.

Starting point is 02:14:21 For one thing, Trump is suing the Wall Street Journal for I believe at least $20 billion. This lawsuit was launched in a federal court in Miami. Trump said on True Social, the lawsuit is filed not only on behalf of your favorite president, all caps me, but in order to continue standing up for all Americans who will no longer tolerate the abusive wrongdoings

Starting point is 02:14:40 of the fake news media. So this is what Trump is claiming. Obviously Trump denies any wrongdoing, denies anything, but kind of lightly knowing Jeffrey Epstein. And for some context, Trump and Epstein have been seen together numerous times. There are pictures and videos of them both together. Trump talked about in interviews,

Starting point is 02:14:57 including one with New York Magazine, where he said, "'Like me, Jeffrey's known to really like women, and some of them are on the younger side.'" But he's been saying shit like this for years. Quote, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It's even said he likes beautiful women as much as I do.

Starting point is 02:15:13 And many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it. Jeffrey enjoys his social life. 2002. We know they were friends. The information suggests that I think it's around 2005 or 2006. They had a falling out over a real estate deal. With a real estate deal and one alleged incident at Mar-a-Lago where Jeffrey was acting quote

Starting point is 02:15:33 unquote inappropriately to a daughter of a member of the club. And then Trump barred him from the club and Trump has claimed this multiple times through the years that between this and the real estate deal that's led to their falling out. There's other stories. There's one I've heard that Epstein got really angry because Trump was physically like touching one of Epstein's girlfriends, like one of his actual like partner girlfriends, and that he got angry over that. We don't know.

Starting point is 02:15:58 But we do know that they were seen socially together and talked about being friends for quite a while. They were neighbors and they were like socialites both in New York and in Florida. Right, right. Yeah. For a while from the 80s up through the early 2000s, right? Now, Trump has denied sending this letter. He said that this doesn't sound like me. He wrote on Truth Social, I don't draw pictures. Now that was a lie. This has sparked one of my favorite investigatory cycles. The New York Times published an article

Starting point is 02:16:24 right after this post that says, Trump says he doesn't draw pictures, but many of his sketches sold at auction. And it's like photos of a bunch of... And to be fair, none of these are sketches of naked women, but there's a crude black marker drawing of the Empire State Building. A lot of city skylines. Allegedly, the drawing of the woman was drawn in black marker, right? And they're noting that he did a lot

Starting point is 02:16:46 of black marker drawings, right? He signs his bills in Sharpie, doesn't he? He signs his bills in Sharpie and that he has a signature that does kind of look like pubic hair, right? If you were to like draw a crude set of genitalia, Donald Trump's signature could stand in for pubic hair, right?

Starting point is 02:17:03 Like the way that he signs his signature, that's one way you could interpret it, right? It's also worth noting and I think this is actually really important when he signs this right He signs it like like on this picture of like the Empire State Building, right? It's a really shitty drawing the Empire State Building His signature is like right next to the building if you're drawing a picture of a naked woman And you shift it like the Empire State Building was sitting down in like an L shape and had pubic hair,

Starting point is 02:17:29 that's where the signature would be. Everything is exactly the same. If the Empire State Building had pubic hair. There's also a drawing that he did. It's called the money tree drawing. It looks like if the giving tree was filled with dollars, then again, the signature kind of looks like pubic hair. Trump's a little artist.

Starting point is 02:17:47 He's just got like, Buddha sits underneath the money tree to meditate. Like it's his alternative. Trump did like yearly drawings and doodles for like charity auctions. And that's what most of these are from. And to be fair, a lot of US presidents have been doodlers.

Starting point is 02:18:02 Ike, our former president, doodled himself with huge muscles during a meeting talking about the overthrow of Guatemala by the CIA. You mean like the Chad Rojave stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so funny. It's so funny. I mean, so many people die to horrible deaths, but it's really pretty funny. The Chad Eisenhower versus the people of Guatemala. Just shredded? Entire indigenous civilizations wipe off the face of Guatemala. Just shredded.

Starting point is 02:18:25 Entire indigenous civilizations wipe off the face of the earth forever like. Look at Chad Eisenhower. God. God. If you have a Chad Eisenhower tattoo, please submit it to Sophie on Twitter. She uses iWrite.

Starting point is 02:18:39 OK. Look, I feel confident saying iHeartRadio will pay for anyone's tattoo if you want to get Chad Eisenhower, as long as it's a facial tattoo, you know? Yeah, you can get it in that UV ink they're doing tattoos in now, only when you're in the club will people see you. In the club, you'll see the Chad Eisenhower one day? Beautiful stuff. Triggering a stampede from the dance floor. Yeah, you're gonna cause another one of those fucking Jersey nightclub fires that killed 120 people.

Starting point is 02:19:09 It's not funny. A lot of people died. Anyway, there was also another, God, I should have it up here, but it's another investigation into like, does the writing that Trump did sound like his other writing? And they found that number one, Trump has a number of times in the past put out writing in the form of a hypothetical script between other people. That is a thing he's done in the past. And then multiple phrases that were used in this letter are phrases he has used in the past, in some cases multiple times. Except some of the mega investigators were able to use Grok to ask if Trump ever used the word enigma before and Grok said no. So we closed that case, never mind the fact that he said it on the campaign trail in 2016 and he said multiple times in his best-selling book.

Starting point is 02:19:57 No evidence he wrote that book. He loves the word. Well, I'm not going to say he loves it, but he's used the word enigma before, right? He described Ben Carson as an enigma. He's described Dan Rather as an enigma. So maybe he and Epstein were both fucking Dan Rather. Is that possible? I'm gonna say yes. I think you should also be impeached for that.

Starting point is 02:20:18 I think so. I'm sorry. I have just discovered, talking of Grok, I'm reading the Trump versus Murdoch lawsuit, which describe eggs.com as calm as quote the internet's watering hole Yeah, no longer the everything website The watering hole. What are you doing? What is wrong with you people fucking jump off a bridge you stupid sons of bitches

Starting point is 02:20:42 It is interesting. He's still really mad at Elon, because Elon is also one of the originators of this current wave of like Epstein focus. And it's interesting, after the letter came out, Elon was just like, obviously a fake, obviously. I think he's scared. I think some G-men showed up at his door and were like, this is a nice life you've got,

Starting point is 02:21:00 fucking Elon Musk, it would be a shame if a hellfire missile hit your house, hit your fucking compound with all of your wives. But the thing is, and this is the fun part about this, is like, it doesn't matter what Elon says now. Like he already opened the floodgates and the gates are fucking open now. No, no, no.

Starting point is 02:21:16 Do you know what else the gates are open from? Yeah, is our advertisers. And we're back. So this is the gist of the situation now. This letter is out and a lot of people, even I was, and I still am to some extent, kind of, there's been so many, ah, this has to be it for old Donnie Trump.

Starting point is 02:21:38 And then like- I love to see him wiggle his way out of this one. And then he wiggles his fucking way out, right? You know, that said, this does seem to be pissing off a lot of his more diehard people, right? Including fucking the Dilbert guy. We don't need to give any name besides the Dilbert guy, but the Dilbert guy is pissed about this.

Starting point is 02:21:56 A lot of people who have been like really religious Trump supporters are pissed as a result of this. Sean Ryan, the right wing podcaster is pissed about this. Sean Ryan, the right wing podcast area, is pissed about this. Even Speaker of the House Mike Johnson has been more Trump critical the past week and has given interviews to another mega influencer turned soft Trump critic now, Benny Johnson, about how Trump handled this so poorly. A lot of them are trying to make this down into like a messaging fail or like a rhetoric fumble, which obviously it's so much more substantial than that. But cracks are forming in a way that we haven't really seen for his base in a long time.

Starting point is 02:22:34 And the thing I think is really important about this is that, okay, so this is me going history mode. If you look at a thing that has been studied by an enormous amount by the left, and I think studied mostly wrong which is How did the Bolsheviks actually take power in 1917? And the answer is that when they came for Kerensky in the October Revolution Everyone stayed home. Everyone looked at Kerensky and was like I'm not dying for that dipshit like fuck him Like if there's like dueling machine gun companies in the street I am NOT going to go die for Alexander Kerensky

Starting point is 02:23:06 And that's how they won because everyone stayed home and that's the thing with Trump, right? The thing that's important about this is that the way that Trump can like be defeated is if enough of his base just stays the fuck home Whenever the sort of terminal crisis hits and every single thing we get like this for more and more of his base is like Well, I mean I could go face down a machine gun line for this guy But he did piss me off by Epstein so like fuck that the more that happens the better it is for all of us whenever The confrontations start to emerge Yeah I think in general just the more so much of the modern right is built on the Epstein

Starting point is 02:23:40 Stuff and a lot of it is a myth right there's a mythical idea That Epstein is trafficking small children And he's not he was trafficking teenage girls because that's what mostly rich adult men want to fuck right? That's just the reality of the situation including famously Donald Trump Yeah He has like said this before and you can look at the many court cases that have often been solved out of court alleged by him and the many court cases that have often been solved out of court. Alleged by him. And like there's this clip of the Howard Stern show from the mid-2000s, which is kind of an endless source of men saying horrible things.

Starting point is 02:24:12 I will include this clip here. Thing about being a four-year-old. Oh, absolutely. Would you do it? I have no problem. Yeah, do you have an age limit or would you? If I, no, no, I have no age. I mean, I have an age limit.

Starting point is 02:24:25 I don't want to be like the kind of person fully with, you know, 12 year olds. Can I make a prediction for you? Good lord. This is the incorrect response to this question. Yeah, this question has a very clear like cutoff point, which even still is a little bit iffy, but this is absolutely the wrong answer. The answer is not 12 years old. This is... That is morally, legally the wrong answer. The answer is not 12 years old. This is morally, legally the wrong answer. Oh man. You know, one of the things I think is also really important about this is looking at this in the context of Trump's unbelievable number of sexual assault allegations.

Starting point is 02:25:01 And we're going to get into that in a second. But first we need to ask the question, okay, has Donald Trump ever intentionally looked at the naked body of an underage girl? And in order to figure out the answer to this, I am going to turn to the man himself, Donald Trump, talking about walking into the changing rooms of Teen Miss USA pageants. And I quote, you know, no men are anywhere and I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant and therefore I'm inspecting it. Is everyone okay?

Starting point is 02:25:33 You know, they're standing there with no clothes and you see these incredible looking women and I sort of get away with things like that. Now that is our president, Donald J. Trump, saying that he walks into changing rooms and looks at the bodies of naked underage girls And says that they are and I quote incredible looking women I remember when this quote was going around like maybe ten years ago Yeah, and then just no one no, no, it's gone into the memory hole now Yeah, just disappear right like there's so much of this shit like the access Hollywood tape like yeah And I think it's actually worth looking at this.

Starting point is 02:26:06 There's another quote from Vox where they say this is an incident of Trump walking in on a changing room of, again, naked underage girls. Quote, Bilal told Buzzfeed she mentioned the incident to Trump's daughter Ivanka who shrugged it off saying, quote, yeah, he does that.

Starting point is 02:26:22 So yeah, this is multiple people cooperating that he just walks into the changing rooms of naked underage girls and like looks at their bodies right now I will call that pedophile shit right like I don't know if he wants to sue me for 1 billion dollars please don't but like sounds like he's alleging pedophile shit he is the one who said this so like you know and it's worth noting also last year a jury did rule that Trump had sexually assaulted an advice columnist named Eam J Carol and he had to pay her like five million dollars there's also again the like grab him by the pussy thing which is him just talking

Starting point is 02:26:56 about sexually assaulting women which he does constantly he kept on just like walking up to like people at his pageants and just kissing them without their consent, which is again sexual assault. And directly tied to the Epstein case, we have an allegation by former model Stacey Williams, which for some reason, I don't know why everyone has suddenly forgotten about this, who alleged that she was introduced to Trump by Epstein, who like walked her to Trump Tower to meet Donald Trump, where he then sexually assaulted her like in front of Epstein who like walked her to Trump Tower to meet Donald Trump where he then sexually assaulted her like in front of Epstein. Yeah, in Trump Tower.

Starting point is 02:27:29 This was also included in a list the New York Times put together a few days ago on like Trump and Epstein's friendship. Quote, one of the young women who later said Mr. Epstein groomed and abused her was recruited into his world while working as a spa attendant at Mar-a-Lago. Another accused are recalled being eyed by Trump during a brief encounter in Mr. Epstein's office and claimed that Mr. Epstein told Trump at the time, quote, she's not for you. So like, he just like says this shit, right? And I think this is, you know, part of the problem that we've been sort of getting at here, right? Which is that like, the conservative

Starting point is 02:28:00 mythos about Epstein is that it's like four year olds, right? And it's like, no, Epstein was doing the shit that Donald Trump talks about doing, right? But because it's like attached to Epstein, right? Like Trump doesn't want to admit that he's been doing this, even though he's been admitting that he's been doing this for decades and decades and decades. It's harder for the conservatives to deal with this because like all of these people think that child marriage should be legal and that creeping on like 15 year olds isn't pedophilia It's not a hard for them to deal with this because they don't have a fucking problem with it Like Matt Walsh is talking about how like 17 year olds are the most fertile

Starting point is 02:28:33 So yeah, this is very common among certain aspects of like this like evangelical again It's a major thing on the right to fight for it to be legal to marry 14 year old girls You know as long as their parents say yes. And you could look at this from a conspiracy perspective and be like, okay, like, is there a ruling cabal of pedophiles that control the United States? And it's like, well, yeah, it's the Baptists and like the systematic coverups of this shit by the Catholic Church, right?

Starting point is 02:29:00 It's Epstein. Yeah. But it's also like Trump admitting that he's like again perving on like doing pedophile shit, like walking in on these changing rooms of these fucking girls. And he's just like admitting this on TV, right? And I think like the current thing that Trump's trying to do is make this Epstein thing another one of the many lines of attack against him throughout the years. And he's done a really good job at deflecting some things that have some actual serious data on, had some serious investigations. And there was aspects of Russian

Starting point is 02:29:29 interference in the 2016 election. It may not have changed the outcome of the election in a substantial manner. But this is something that the FBI legitimately investigated and had real findings of. And he was able to just completely like rewrite what that investigation was into this like completely like astroturfed and like orchestrated hoax. And now it's like one of the main things that he talks about. And whenever there's new things that people bring up about why Trump is bad, he just compares it to the Russia hoax. Everything's just just like the Russia hoax. This is just another another Democrat hoax against me. And this has been such an effective way for him to diffuse just another Democrat hoax against me. And this has been such an

Starting point is 02:30:05 effective way for him to defuse so many lines of attack against him. It's by just repeating long enough and often enough that it's just a baseless hoax. And he can do this anytime and he'll replace like, oh, you know, this is a hoax. But you know, when Hunter Biden does stuff, that's the real thing that the Democrats then try to cover up. Hunter's laptop. They talk about Hunter's laptop. They talk about Hunter's laptop so many times, something that does not matter. But this is the train that he's been able to do.

Starting point is 02:30:30 And eventually, journalists and media get tired of having to repeat the same thing over and over again, explaining that these things are not baseless hoaxes, but are legitimate investigations, legitimate concerns. And people just get tired of it. And he's able to like warp reality around things that he says. And this is the thing he's currently trying to do with Epstein. This is why he's calling it the Epstein hoax using the same rhetoric that he used around all of the Russia stuff around the 2020 election around Hunter Biden's laptop. And it's gonna tire people out. And I can already kind of feel some of this iteration of it

Starting point is 02:31:06 losing some steam. And I thought the Wall Street Journal piece would invigorate people's discussion of Trump's alleged pedophilia. And I think it's, I don't know, at least in observing the online ecosystem, immediate ecosystem the last few days, I don't know if Trump's strategy is working,

Starting point is 02:31:24 but it is growing stagnant. And that's just kind of the pace of the internet sometimes. But if he's able to keep doing what he's currently doing, I'm not sure if this stuff's going to really matter in two months beyond, you know, whatever comes out in discovery for the Murdoch lawsuit. We should maybe explain who Murdoch is. Just, this is Murdoch! Rupop Murdoch is... He's a leftist revolutionary of... Yeah, that's going to say member of the Communist Party. Murdoch is an Australian tabloid magnate who owns the tabloid press, more or less.

Starting point is 02:31:59 At some point in time, he has probably owned most of the tabloid press in the English language, almost all around the world, right? He owns owns Sun in the UK, also the Times. In Australia he owns The Daily Sun and Deadly Telegraph. In the US he owns The Wall Street Journal and The New York Post. He also owns Sky News, which broadcasts in the UK. He owns Fox News. He used to own People in the UK Remember the News of the World. he owns Fox News, he used to own, people in the UK remember the News of the World, he owns a massive amount of the tabloid and I guess the broadsheet press now. But he has historically been very right wing, right?

Starting point is 02:32:35 It's fair to say that Murdoch outlets have boosted Trump enormously in his ascent to office. However, now it appears they have fallen out. That is significant, I think. It is significant that this guy who has played a huge role in Trump's... We don't have the liberal Walter Cronkite anymore. The person who can change their mind on something and take the nation with them in the way that Cronkite had a role in doing, at least in the Vietnam War. The boomer and Gen X conservative people still have that in Fox News, right? Like Fox News can, because it's like the constant background noise in people's lives in so much of this country, it can take people with it. And the fact that Trump

Starting point is 02:33:16 has gone after Murdoch, I think that is potentially, like if their falling out continues, that is potentially the most damaging part of this for him. I want to read a quote. I think I've talked about this on the show before, but Murdoch's role in doing this sort of reality shaping stuff for Trump until now, and Garrison, we were talking about how Trump is able to sort of create his own reality. I want to read this quote from the Bush administration that's very famous, which is like the reality-based community quote, because the neocons were trying to do the same thing, right?

Starting point is 02:33:50 There's a very famous quote from the Bush administration, which is attributed to a journalist named Ron Sutskind, and he's doing an interview with like a Bush administration aide. And I'm just going to quote from it. The aide said that guys like me were, quote, in what we call the reality-based community, which he defined as people who, quote, believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. That's not the way the world really works anymore, he continued. We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.

Starting point is 02:34:22 And while you're studying reality, judiciously, as you will, we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too. And that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors and you, all of you, will just be left to study what we do. And that's, you know, a lot of what Trumpism is too, right? Which is that like, yeah, I know all of you people are trying to like describe reality. I'm just simply going to change it by saying shit, right? And doing shit. And like, all he has to do is like diffuse the possible damage that this Epstein thing

Starting point is 02:34:51 can do to his base. Like he does not care about the other half of the country at all. He knows that they hate him. That does not matter. All he has to do is create enough of a doubt in the mind of the base that this thing isn't real. There's no proof that this Wall Street Journal story is real. This is all a hoax. The Epstein files were written by Obama, even though the second Epstein investigation kicked off when he was president in 2019. But all these files were written by my enemies. Well, Garrison, I think it's bold of you to say that Trump was president in 2019. That is very much up for debate.

Starting point is 02:35:23 This is a controversial claim now about who was president in 2019. That is very much up for debate. This is a controversial claim now about who was president in 2019. Yeah, certainly like who was president in 2020 is something that the country now disagrees about. Yeah, the thing I want to say about this though, right, is the neocons believe they could do this, right? The neocons believe they had seized the range of empire and they could forever shape reality to their will. And they couldn't. This quote from 2004, right? The neocons tried to do this and they invaded Iraq and they thought they could just fucking will like empire like We create reality. I thought they could just turn a rock into their own personal playground

Starting point is 02:35:53 And it destroyed them like where are the neocons now? Right like some of them are obviously in the Trump administration But like this is not a neocon some of them are now in the anti-trumper side of things Yeah, many of them are in the Lincoln Project. The thing is, the neocons are, they do not rule the empire anymore, right? That's Trump. These people, they ran into a piece of reality that they tried to devour and consume and replace, and it destroyed them. And I don't know if this is that for Trump, but... Yeah, I don't know. I'm not that optimistic.

Starting point is 02:36:22 But the last time that someone tried to do this using the American state they eventually hit a thing they couldn't swallow and it completely annihilated them and That's the goal with us right like we have to like Find the thing where enough of the coalition is peeled off and where it just completely blows up in their fucking face And hopefully it's not like the Iraq war three or something But there's ability to warp reality Purely by like thought and speech and action of Empire like has its limits and we've seen them be destroyed before Yeah, it took a lot of people dying

Starting point is 02:36:58 The first time and that's what it was horrible, right? It's not it's not easy to stop these people but you know like where the fuck is George Bush right now. Yeah, he's doing a painting Yeah, yep on his farm painting, but he's not running the fucking country. He's not on his farm He's like ten miles away from where I used to live in Dallas. Oh God He's at Robert's house. Yeah, I don't know what else we got to say about our old friend Jepstein I Guess the one last thing that I have to say is I actually do think that like Look if the thing that you've decided to do is you want to wage information warfare?

Starting point is 02:37:32 Like just continuing to spread this shit and like seeding it and random right-wing things is probably a fun thing to do with your time It could work. Who knows it can't hurt Yeah, I mean it could but probably won't What really could hurt right now, given where we are? This is like the biggest chink in the MAGA armor that we've seen. He's lost more people over this than tearing families apart with masked unidentified men with guns. People are fine with that, James. Unfortunately, lots of them think it's cool.

Starting point is 02:38:01 But some of them don't, and that's gonna be our interview tomorrow! Or maybe yesterday! The whole country is governed by QAnon logic now. This is the only thing that truly gets Americans upset anymore. As like an entire political bloc. Yeah. This is it. Like, QAnon as a cohesive conspiracy doesn't really exist anymore, but its logic has perforated every aspect of America,

Starting point is 02:38:26 Democrats and Republicans included now. And that's the real people that's survived the past 10 years of politics is the logic of QAnon. It's the only thing that matters. It cannot be killed anymore. All right. Well, this has been It Could Happen Here. Until next time, you know, may every day be another beautiful secret.

Starting point is 02:38:50 Oh, God. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you.

Starting point is 02:39:35 The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever

Starting point is 02:40:03 you get your podcasts. For my iHeart Podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is the turning, River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor. But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey.

Starting point is 02:41:02 Listen to The Turning, River Road, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American history is full of wise people. Well, women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory. Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions

Starting point is 02:41:31 about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said. It would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American history hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be, an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry,

Starting point is 02:42:19 where we're breaking down why open AI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcastorder, our weekly newscast covering what is happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis, today I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Sophie Lichterman. This episode we are covering the week of July 16th to July 23rd. It has been six months since Trump has took office.

Starting point is 02:43:08 How do we feel about that, folks? Yeah. Wow. There can't be three and a half years of this. Like there just can't. Like there will not be a country left. Yeah. Six months feels like a lifetime and not like it feels like no time has passed at all. So, yeah, six months of us doing this, which is wild.

Starting point is 02:43:28 Was that 42 months left? Am I correctly additioning? I don't do math. Three years, six months. Welcome to Mathcast with Dr. James Stout. Yeah, a doctor of modern European history. Does not involve arithmetic. Oh man.

Starting point is 02:43:46 Let's go straight to Epstein, which is also what Hillary Clinton's Black Ops kill squad said after they broke into the jail. Wow, Garrison. Garrison, you are spreading disinformation. That is the one group of people we can confirm did not kill Jeffrey Epstein. Garrison, just because Robert's not here, does it mean you have to go down to his level of humor? I think yesterday or two days ago, we released Epstein update episode where we discuss the

Starting point is 02:44:16 first Wall Street Journal story where they released this typewritten note given to Epstein on his 50th birthday from Trump where he wrote this fake dialogue conversation between him and Epstein saying, among other things, we have certain things in common, Jeffrey. Yes, we do come to think of it. Enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? As a matter of fact, it was clear to me last time I saw you. A pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret." Which is, you could have just wrote like a pedophile confession note and it would be less incriminating than whatever creepy shit you're doing with this. So if you want to listen to our

Starting point is 02:44:57 full update episode on that, just hop over to the other episode after Executive Disorder is done. We do have some other updates to add on because the Epstein thing keeps being in the news, despite the will of Donald Trump, who definitely wants this not in the news. In fact, he is trying out a number of distraction techniques, including releasing some files related to the death of Martin Luther King, which when everyone's asking to release the files, that's not the files they were talking about. Also, the family did not want that to happen. Very disrespectful.

Starting point is 02:45:29 And has stated that for a while. This is a very cheap way to run some distraction. Last week, Pam Bondi sent a request to release the grand jury files on the Epstein investigation. And this was just a way to perform transparency because these types of files usually do not get released. Like this was most likely going to perform transparency because these types of files usually do not get released. Like this was most likely gonna get blocked by the judge. And they knew that when they sent this request, this was just to perform this like gesture of transparency

Starting point is 02:45:54 knowing that it wouldn't actually lead to anything. And all of this stuff goes against what Trump was saying like a year ago. A year ago on Fox News, Trump said that he would release the files. And then, although he did kind of catch himself and realized that that might not be in his best interest year ago. A year ago on Fox News, Trump said that he would release the files and then although he did kind of catch himself and realized that that might not be in his best interest because he kind of corrected and said that he would have to make sure there's not phony

Starting point is 02:46:12 stuff in there. Let's play the clip. Would you declassify the 911 files? Yeah. Would you declassify JFK files? Yeah. Would you? I did. I did a lot of it. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, yeah, I would. I guess I would. I think that less so because you know, you don't know it. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. But I think I would. What does that fucking mean? That whole world? Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things in there. Notably, when Fox first aired this, they only played the first half of his answer where he said, yeah, I would. And did not air the part where he said, um, well,

Starting point is 02:46:54 actually, maybe not, because there's a lot of phony stuff in there. Yeah, that's interesting. Eventually, the full clip went online, but at first they released this shorter clip to make Trump look better, which there's a lot of similarity to Trump's lawsuit against 60 minutes and Paramount when they released two different clips of Kamala Harris answering a question in like the same week on two different shows answering the same question, like two halves of the answer. Trump said that this was done explicitly to change the outcome of the election and sued 60 minutes for this. And because Paramount, the parent company of CBS News, is trying to complete a merger with Skydance, which needs to be approved by the Trump administration, Paramount has started interfering with the affairs of 60 minutes had just canceled the Colbert late show, possibly in efforts to appease Trump and just gave him this this massive bribe as a way to get out of the lawsuit So very similar situation where news companies are playing two different things from the same answer

Starting point is 02:47:52 I think the one that happened on Fox News is way more egregious than the 160 minutes did I think the 60 minutes one makes sense, but that's just a whole tiny aside But that's just a whole tiny aside. Releasing Epstein files is something that Trump has still been talking about. Last week on Wednesday, July 16th in an Oval Office press conference, he was asked if he would get Pam Bondi to try to release more documents. He answered like this. Will you ask Attorney General Pam Bondi to release more documents to finally put this controversy to bed? Whatever is credible, she can release it. If a document is credible, if a document's there that is credible, she can release. I think it's good. But it's just really, it's just a subject. He's dead, he's gone. And all it is is the Republicans, certain Republicans

Starting point is 02:48:41 got duped by the Democrats and they're following a Democrat playbook. So after this, Pam Bondi sent a request to a judge to unseal the Epstein-Maxwell grand jury transcripts. And again, this is the move to feign transparency. Attorney Sarah Krishoff, an assistant US attorney in Manhattan from 2008 to 2021, told the AP that this move was a quote unquote distraction, quote, the president is trying to present himself as if he's doing something here. And really, it's nothing. Unquote. She estimates that these transcripts could be as little as 60 pages anyway, because it is standard practice for the Southern District of New York to put

Starting point is 02:49:18 very little information in these transcripts compared to some other states. And as expected earlier this week, the judge denied this request, which the Trump admin knew was gonna happen because they don't release grand jury transcripts. The whole point of a grand jury is that it's secret that you did this. So this was never gonna happen.

Starting point is 02:49:36 I fear that's common sense. But this was the move to make it look like they were having some level of transparency. Another tactic Trump has done to distract from the obscene story is directing Tulsi Gabbard to run this huge distraction campaign by talking about the Obama treason investigation. Jesus Christ. Yeah. I'll play a clip here. There is irrefutable evidence that detail how President Obama and his national security team directed the creation of an intelligence community assessment that they knew was false.

Starting point is 02:50:11 They knew it would promote this contrived narrative that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help President Trump win, selling it to the American people as though it were true. It wasn't. The report that we released today shows in great detail how they carried this out. They manufactured findings from shoddy sources. They suppressed evidence and credible intelligence that disproved their false claims. They disobeyed traditional tradecraft intelligence community standards and withheld the truth from the American people.

Starting point is 02:50:47 Very serious stuff. She looks like a villain from the Orville. What they're talking about is, yeah, there was legitimate investigations into Russia's meddling in the 2016 election. What they were unable to prove is conclusive evidence that Trump colluded with the Russians, but this meddling was real and was proven. This is stuff that they found. And Obama was president at the time. And yeah, he's going to know about the investigation. So they're trying to turn that into this whole giant, giant hoax

Starting point is 02:51:17 regarding Obama trying to steal the 2016 election. Again, an election that everyone knows Trump won, election again, an election that everyone knows Trump won. Trump was president from 2017 to early 2021. Something that some people have tried to forget. And they're trying to run like all of these distractions just to keep people from talking about Epstein. And this is something that Trump's really good at. All he needs to do is keep his base from turning on him. And the way he's going to do that is make them angry at other people. He has to find new targets to make his base upset at. And right now he's trying it out with Obama, right? He's done that with Biden for years.

Starting point is 02:51:53 He's done that with Clinton for years. Obama's the new guy that he hasn't really targeted as much. So now he's trying to get his supporters really mad at Obama. And that is the whole way that he's trying to hold on to their support and hold on to their power. Because yeah, some of the Epstein stuff may be a little bit weird. But did you see how Obama tried to steal the election? And this is his whole strategy. And he laid this strategy out at a press conference earlier this week, where he's seen like coaching Republicans to respond to questions about Epstein by just talking about Obama and the Russian election interference investigation

Starting point is 02:52:25 that the quote unquote Russia hopes. But remember this Obama cheated on the election. And we have it cold, hard, blue, and it's getting even more so because the stuff that's coming in is not even believable. So and you should mention that every time they give you a question that's not appropriate. Just say, Oh, by the way, Obama cheated on the election, you'll you'll watch the camera turn off instantly. And this is the strategy he uses. Whenever he's asked about something, he'll talk about the Russia Russia Russia hoax, the hunter Biden laptop, things that aren't even real

Starting point is 02:53:02 things that he's like successfully Psy opt the country into believing are like real things. But whenever he's asked a question about Epstein, you can immediately pivot to that and have that control the conversation. And he's laying out the strategy here. This is what I was talking about last week in ED about how Trump like dictates reality through speech. And he's trying to coach his fellow Republicans on how to do

Starting point is 02:53:22 it. And they have to catch up on a lot of stuff because Trump's ties to Epstein have been known for a long, long time. I'm going to play a very, very gross clip from around the turn of the millennia talking about dating teen models. What did you do last night for fun? I actually went to the fashion award show. What did you do last night for fun? I actually went to the fashion award show Donald do you worry because you have a daughter who's a model I do and I have a deal with her she's just 17 and she's doing great Ivanka and She made me promise her swear to her that I would never date a girl younger than her

Starting point is 02:54:02 that I would never date a girl younger than her. So, if she grows older, the field is getting very limited severely. Now that she's 17, his dating field is getting very limited. I wonder what he could mean by that. I wonder what that could be insinuating. Really fucking gross, man. Yeah, this shit is actually deeply fucking disturbing like yeah It's hideous and also like the fact that the Democrats didn't spend the entire election Just calling him a pedophile and running ads that were just this man as a pedophile like this is stuff

Starting point is 02:54:36 We've known for a long time It's all like in the public domain that kids and decades This is from a Guardian article in 2020. At 43 years old, Donald Trump asked a 17 year old girl on a date. Trump asked her out for dinner in the summer of 1989 at an industry soiree. She recalls Trump asking how old she was. Quote, I said 17 and he said, that's just great. You're not too old, not too young.

Starting point is 02:55:02 Unquote. Oh, legally speaking, too young. Outrageous, outrageous stuff. Yeah. And we have some breaking news from just a few hours ago. We're recording this on Wednesday. A second Wall Street Journal article has hit the Trump towers. New article talking about the Justice Department officials reviewing

Starting point is 02:55:23 Attorney General Pam Bondi's quote unquote truckload of Jeffrey Epstein documents and discovering that Donald Trump's name appears multiple times according to senior administration officials. Bondi notified Trump about this in May, saying that a few other high profile names are also in the documents and that the DOJ would not be releasing these documents in order to quote unquote protect victims as if you can't censor victims names or censored child sexual abuse material. Yeah, this is just a complete cover up. considerably more normal Epstein's defense lawyer Roy Black who's the guy who got him off from like going to prison for a billion years in 2007 just died like today so okay Hillary Clinton kill squad is really it's really working

Starting point is 02:56:15 I mean working over time this point like Donald Trump kill squad question absolutely we need to be retiring the Hillary Clinton kill squad jokes cuz like I think it's very likely that Epstein did kill himself I do not think you need to believe in that sort of like conspiratorial thinking to also believe that There's documented evidence of Trump dating teenagers and wanting to date teenagers for the past like 40 years And that's something that everyone should be aware of like that's not a conspiracy theory And you don't need to believe in conspiratorial thinking to think that that's very likely That said I do want to establish there is at least one person on the podcast who thinks that he might not have I don't know

Starting point is 02:56:58 But every single time they do more weird shit about it. I'm like Maybe is this conspiracy brain thinking? Yes. But I mean, editing the video didn't make anyone more certain that he killed himself. So as we enter the more than six month marker in the Trump administration, I think we should check in on how the youths feel about Donald Trump. Famously, there's a lot of reporting about how Gen Z is like, you know, swinging more

Starting point is 02:57:25 conservative, how Gen Z helped get Trump elected. And if you look at some February approval numbers, it does seem that between ages of 18 and 29. So too old using the aforementioned criteria. Trump did have a plus 10 points approval with 55% approving only 45% disapproving of his performance. Now come July things have changed dramatically in the youth bracket 18 to 29 with only 28% approval negative 44 points and 72% disapproval which is a net 54 point negative swing. That's genuinely astonishing. Like that's a huge jump. But it's not a jump

Starting point is 02:58:08 Garrison. It's a fall. That's you're right. You're right. It is going down. Yeah. It's a plummet. This is according to a CBS News polls. Again, and I do think Mia is right. I don't know if Trump's going to care about this very much because this does seem to be higher than his preferred dating bracket. So I don't think he's looking for the approval of people between 18 to 29. But this still might affect him culturally, I guess. Yeah. Talking of things that have gone down badly, Garrison, it is now our obligation to pivot to advertisements. Advertisements are doing just fine from what I hear. And we are back. Let's do a immigration segment for the middle of the show.

Starting point is 02:59:02 And I guess I'll first start with Ice Watch. So the past few weeks, I've seen multiple videos of ice pulling over cars, and sometimes not even like pulling over, just like blocking cars and narrow streets, like stopping them forcefully, and then drawing guns as they get out of the car. Like by the time they are like door open,

Starting point is 02:59:21 feet on the ground, gun already drawn. And they then descend on activists doing ice watch basically people who follow ice agents around to alert their community of where ice currently is usually they're live streaming and this is a particular video that I have sent to the team here very freaky I think we should just watch it here. Yeah, yeah, definitely and we can try and describe it a little bit for listeners If you know how I am then why the fuck are you telling me to open the window and where the hell Are you fucking pointing a gun a fucking taser at me if you know who I am. Okay and you guys follow everyone, everyone.

Starting point is 03:00:13 You guys stalk people all the fucking time. A very large man wearing a mask, a hoodie and a baseball cap. No obvious identification, not in a police uniform, not in like a border patrol uniform. It's just a guy who basically forces your car to stop and jumps out and points a gun at you yeah we draws from appendix carry like it's not in many states this would be justification to start shooting at this man yeah yeah there's I think reasons why they're not doing this in states where there's high levels of gun ownership because they're afraid of that happening because it's not clear at all that the guy's a cop. No, it's a masked man has forced your car to a halt and is pulling a gun on you and is approaching you.

Starting point is 03:00:53 Yeah, that happens in another country and you assume you're being robbed like another part of the world. Like also it's notable that the vehicle doesn't have lights. It's not a cop car. No, it's not even a US made car. Sometimes cops will use non-marked cars, but they're normally US manufactured, right? Or US companies for Chevy, etc. This is a Kia. Everything apart from a lanyard hanging around the guy's neck, which is not identifiable as a badge, certainly not at this speed, certainly not while he's drawing a gun from a Pendix

Starting point is 03:01:23 carry, points to this being someone trying to rob or kill you. Very scary. Yeah, I will say I think the fact that they're being forced to do this in some sense is a sign that this is really working. It's pissing them off. The fact that people are keeping tabs on where ICE is. Yeah, it's working. And like I keep saying this is like, they're the ones who are being forced to operate as if they're working in a police state. Like they're the ones who are having to deal with surveillance, they're the ones who are having to deal with the fact that like, if they stay in a place

Starting point is 03:01:50 too long, there'll be mass mobilizations and people will just like drop the hammer on them. It's a really interesting look at what happens when you try to do this police state shit in a society where everyone fucking hates you, which is that all you really have is speed and terror. Totally. And so, you know, they're doing this shit, right? Like they're just trying to terrorize people into letting them do their police state stuff. But if people keep doing it, right, it seriously is like denting their effectiveness a lot.

Starting point is 03:02:15 Yeah, I've seen multiple videos like this. Eventually the ICE agents will call over some like state trooper or like a DHS guy who does not work for ICE directly to defuse the situation. I've seen most of these situations get eventually diffused, but it's something to I think draw attention to right now. Yeah. I mean, if this keeps happening, it's likely to end in violence somewhere, right? I mean, this is the same thing when they're kidnapping college students without any clear identification. Yeah. Yeah. Notably doing that in like New England states where people do not

Starting point is 03:02:46 conceal, carry firearms like regularly as like a regular thing that like people do. Yeah. I mean, firearms are not the only means of violence available to people. Like that lady seemed very calm and commendably so. But like she could have stepped on the gas pedal of her car and that.

Starting point is 03:02:59 Totally. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. And obviously this person knows that the guy is iced because that's why she's following him. But if ice just starts getting paranoid about cars behind them, if they think someone's following them, they can pull this on someone who's not doing ice watch. Yeah. They can just pull this on anyone who they are like suspicious of. And I think that's when really dangerous situations could start breaking out

Starting point is 03:03:20 between these like unmarked ICE agents and just regular citizens. And I think the odds of one of them just snapping and starting shooting is like not zero because that's who these people are. And as they're increasingly put under stress, they're being trained to always be afraid of danger, like more so than even just like regular like cop stuff. Like they're talking about how like violence against ICE is up 800% where the violence is like someone's head meets an ICE agent's fist, right? It's that sort of violence where it's like you're assaulting a cop by like partially resisting arrest in some way. But they are spreading those stats as if this is a real epidemic of violence against ICE agents right now. Another story I'd like to talk about is this deportation

Starting point is 03:04:06 hoax story that I've seen going around social media, seen it going around like our slash green card on Reddit, like TikTok and even local news stories across the country where I secretly deports an 82 year old torture survivor and US legal resident for 40 years. This man goes to an immigration office to replace a green card. And instead of that happening, ICE handcuffs him, detains him, denies access to a lawyer and deport him to Guatemala,

Starting point is 03:04:37 a country where he is not from, with no official paperwork, and then is put into the hospital in Guatemala. This story got super vital the past week. And from what we can tell, this is not a real story. There was no immigration appointment in Philadelphia at the time of this viral story. Guatemala says that the man is not in the country. The hospital he was alleged to be at, doctors have said there is no man matching this description in the story.

Starting point is 03:05:02 And the photos attached to this viral story of the man are not of this guy. The photos are of a guy who died three years ago. This is, from what we can tell, an entirely fabricated story that one local news outlet bought and then spread around from there. It's not even clear if the family members

Starting point is 03:05:20 that were the original source of this even exist. It's not clear if this man even exists. So this is, from what we can tell right now, not real, not real at all. And this is something to keep in mind, just because a story is like scary and just because it's going viral does not necessarily mean it's true.

Starting point is 03:05:39 And we don't need to be sharing fake stories of ICE deporting people or even going after green card holders because this is actually happening. This is happening in the country right now and ICE is defying judicial orders. Yeah, so let's talk about one of those incidents, right? In this case, it's a man called Leonel Navarrete Hernandez who filed a habeas suit in the Central District of California, right? Against the Department of Homeland Security. Let's get some background on his case first and we can talk about this specific

Starting point is 03:06:10 kind of not justifying court orders, but also the United States Constitution. He fled to the United States in 2009 after being pursued by the police and falsely accused in El Salvador and beaten by police several times. I'm going to quote from the court documents pretty extensively throughout this. Quote, including in one instance beaten until he vomited blood, resulting in a cut on his head that scarred and a fractured finger. End quote. In 2022, he was part of a targeted enforcement operation and he was issued a notice to appear and then he bonded out. So he posted bail and he was out of detention. In January 2024, he filed for asylum. He didn't get asylum due to the timing of filing. He also asked for

Starting point is 03:06:52 withholding of removal. He didn't get that because he, quote, failed to show that his proposed, quote, particular social groups are cognizable or that his past harm was because of a protected ground. So regular listeners will know that there are certain grounds on which one can obtain asylum and one has to be part of these certain categories to obtain asylum. What he did get was protection of removal under the Convention Against Torture because, again quoting, it is more likely than not that the respondent will be detained and tortured in El Salvador. El Salvador had put out an Interpol red alert for him for some reason. They deeply wanted him back. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that this person committed crimes. ICE appealed this protection of removal. And

Starting point is 03:07:36 then the same day they appealed it, they detained him when he appeared at his Intensive Supervisory Appearance Program check-in. So ICE app is one of these things where instead of being detained you appear at ICE office and check check in every now and again, as opposed to then just locking you up for the entire time. His partner then testified to the court that quote, Leonel called me and told me that he was arrested. He says immigration officers went up to him at his ISAP check-in and told him he was under arrest. Leonel said he asked the officers why and informed them he had him he was under arrest. Lionel said he asked the officers why and informed them he had an order from the judge.

Starting point is 03:08:07 The officers said something like, judges orders don't matter, only the president. Judges orders don't matter, only the president. This is a rogue law enforcement agency in service of a rogue president. Like- Yeah, Lionel then told me that he told the officers he had an attorney, I'm still quoting from his partner here.

Starting point is 03:08:26 But the officers said that doesn't matter either. He has an order forbidding his deportation and they're telling him that doesn't matter because the president wants you out of the country. Yeah, exactly. And that is what they have done, right? That was the entire rendition of people to El Salvador was an end run around that, right? Attempting to, they're just like saying this to people. Yeah, because that's what they're doing. That's war. And that's was an end run around that, right? Attempting to- And they're just like saying this to people. Yeah, because that's what they're doing. That's war and that's what they said to the court,

Starting point is 03:08:49 right? We sneaked them out before you could stop it. Yeah. So just to update people on this case, he called from jail in Santa Ana and said he was in a small space and he heard people being taken to San Diego or Texas. Then he had to hang up. He was moved around significantly, right? All around, including into Texas when he showed up on the detainee locator. The judge in the case issued a tentative restraining order to prevent them from removing him. In detention, he was only allowed to make phone calls for three minutes. In one of those calls, he told his partner that detention officers, I guess, were telling detainees

Starting point is 03:09:20 they were going to be removed whether or not they signed deportation papers. In his case, the court has issued an injunction to prevent his removal or his re-detention. So, like, shout out to the Central District of California, I guess. This is wild, right? This is dictatorial regime shit. You have no rights other than those the president decides to give to you is the subtext here. It's explicitly the fascist thing of, like, there are people who exist outside legal order in order to maintain it and that person is the fearer. Like that's just what this is, right? Like it's really explicit.

Starting point is 03:09:55 I don't really know what people expect of them, and they're expected to dress like they're in the sound of music, you know? This is what fascism looks like. Let's talk about some more immigration cases. What other immigration updates do we have, James? Yeah, well, none of them are great, to be honest. No, the immigration segment has been a bit of a bummer the past, let me check my watch, six months.

Starting point is 03:10:15 Yeah, it is hard on the soul. A New Jersey district court has struck down the state's law forbidding private immigration detention. This also happened in California, right? They said it was state-over-reach. This was an issue. It's federal detention, so the feds get to decide, basically. So New Jersey had tried to stop the GEO group, CoreCivic, these massive detention operations from operating private immigration detention in the state. Couldn't get that one through the courts. Probably the bigger story this week is

Starting point is 03:10:44 that the federal government has signed a contract for a huge 5,000-bed tent camp facility for migration detention at Fort Bliss. It's according to reporting in Bloomberg. Bloomberg has reported that the contract total is $1.268,229. What is not being reported on this, and I don't understand why other than nobody reported on immigration during the Biden admin apparently. People are looking for analogues. What would this be like? The Department of Defence operated a tent facility at Fort Bliss under Operation Allies Welcome for Afghan people arriving in the United States after the bungled withdrawal from Afghanistan. I interviewed one of them. I was freelancing for the nation at that time and there'll be a link in the show notes. But the Afghans were housed at a

Starting point is 03:11:40 place called Dona Ana Range, which is in New Mexico. So Bliss spans Texas and New Mexico. This new complex seems to be in a different place because it will be soft-sided, which just means tents. This one is accessible from El Paso streets and it's accessible without entering the Fort Bliss main gate, so people don't have to have on-base clearance. The Afghan site had 98 tents, which each held about 100 people. This one will house 5,000 people, so we can assume about 500 tents. This contract for 1.26 billion, Operation Allies Welcome was larger. It did other things. For instance, all those people got their COVID vaccinations because they hadn't got them when they were

Starting point is 03:12:22 in Afghanistan. A lot of other vaccinations too. But that was spent three billion just in fiscal year 2022 to give people a sense of the scale of these things. So 1.26 billion is not at all out of the question. In fact, brings me on to my next point, which is that it may be a bit low given that this company has no experience with this kind of operation. One of the questions we asked back in November when we did our What Could Happen under Trump? is how will they stand up these facilities? Who has the experience to do it? Well, this company does not have the experience to do it. They've never done anything like this before. They have some logistic contracts with DoD, but they do not have the capacity, at least they have not shown that they have the capacity,

Starting point is 03:13:04 to do anything on this scale. The DoD operation used a lot of contractors as well as defact dining facility for food. I just want to quote some of the people I called Abul who I talked to who was in that detention facility. Quote, for the past month, nighttime was the most horrible time for us because every day it got colder. We didn't have enough warm clothes or any thick blankets to fight against the cold. They gave us a blanket that was so thin we could see through it. These are people who in some cases fought alongside United States soldiers, right? Like it's not going to be better for migrants. Abul also told me the food wasn't great. He said, quote, it's not cooked enough or it's

Starting point is 03:13:40 burned. He did say that he appreciated the quote, the guy doing the cooking was always asking for feedback. They tried to cook Afghan food, I guess. And yeah, but he appreciated the effort to cook food that interesting. Yeah. I mean, they ain't going to try that now this time, right? But no, for instance, provide halal food, which was a consideration. I'm assuming this time they're going to be getting the fucking boldy food from Florida. Yeah. I mean, the United States has a whole bunch of food that should have gone out to many of the starving people around the world, right, but has been left to mold in warehouses. So yeah, they might be eating the high energy biscuits or the hum rats.

Starting point is 03:14:15 Talking of food, Human Rights Watch has released a report detailing human rights abuses at detention centers. The report focuses on Chrome North Service Processing Center, aka Chrome, the Broward Transitional Center, and the Federal Detention Center. All of these are in Florida. Are those first two privately owned that are then being leased or licensed out to the government? Yes, they're run by contractors for the government for immigration detention. We've talked about Chrome before. It was one that was very overcrowded, had two deaths. It's also the name that I would pick for an evil agency who gets the for-profit prison.

Starting point is 03:14:55 It's Chrome with a K. With a K too, which makes it more evil. So the incidents you tell in this report are pretty bad. They include people being forced to eat like dogs with their hands tied behind their back. They include people being punished and put in solitary confinement for seeking medical or mental health help. And having their hands zipped tied and being forced to lay down on wet floors. As is very common in ice facilities, the air conditioning was turned up very high to make it uncomfortably cold. Like the Florida swamp ones. Yeah. This is the case in every immigration detention facility that

Starting point is 03:15:27 I've heard about. The Spanish word translates to icebox. It's a word that people use to refer. That's the colloquial term for these facilities. The FTC staff also used stun grenades and physical force against detainees protesting denial of food, water and medical attention. The report details people being detained in crowded cells with no beds or bedding and denied essential medications. Read a couple of quotes from people interviewed in the report here. Quote, you could not fall asleep because it was so cold. I thought I was going to experience hypothermia, one said. It's like psychological abuse. You feel like your life is over, said another. All right, we're back.

Starting point is 03:16:21 This past week, the World Food Program released a new report on food scarcity in Gaza, like enforced through the Israeli military, and also discussed a quote unquote deadly incident this past Sunday in which dozens of civilians were killed and injured while waiting to access food as a World Food Program convoy was entering northern Gaza. The director of emergency preparedness and response,, Ross Smith said, quote, Yesterday's incident is one of the greatest tragedies we've seen for our operations in Gaza and elsewhere while we're trying to work. And it's completely avoidable and it's an absolute tragedy. Unquote. Currently, food safety experts warned that one in five people in Gaza face enforced starvation. I'm going to quote from

Starting point is 03:17:05 the UN here, quote, Mr. Smith said world food program assessments show that a quarter of the population is facing famine like conditions. Almost 100,000 women and children are suffering from severe acute malnutrition and need treatment as soon as possible. Pointing to reports, he said, quote, people are dying from a lack of humanitarian assistance every day. And we are seeing this escalate day by day, saying that food and humanitarian assistance are, quote, the only solution at the moment for Gaza, unquote. And it's worth emphasizing with this that like the food is there. It is literally just sitting in warehouses like they can bring it in the moment the blockade lifts. But the Israelis don't want people bombing people bringing food into

Starting point is 03:17:47 Gaza at this point and they keep on Doing this thing where they'll be like, oh we have food and then they shoot everyone who shows up to get food So this is something that World Food Program has been saying quote We also need to have no armed actors near food Distribution points near our convoys, and near the movement of those convoys from one place to another. This is basic humanitarian aid shit. This is like 101 fucking operating humanitarian resources in a conflict zone stuff. This isn't new stuff, right? This is asking the IDF to do what you would expect any reasonable actor to do in one of these

Starting point is 03:18:22 situations. Obviously the IDF. Not a particularly reasonable actor, right? Speaking of things I don't like. Oh Garrison, you cannot compare the work of Joe Strummer to the IDF. Unreasonable. Jesus Christ. Terri, if I don't like. Jesus Christ. All right, welcome to the Teraf Talk thing where I had no role in the prior transition to it

Starting point is 03:18:48 So we've gotten a few tariff deals Over the week. We got one with the Philippines where Trump has negotiated a deal or a 19% tariff on All goods in the Philippines coming to the US There's also been a deal established with Japan where we're at a tariff rate of 15%. This one also has, and there's been a few of these deals that have things like this where Japan also had to agree to invest 550 billion dollars in the US. It's really unclear how that's going to work. Like it might just be loans. That's the part I don't even know if it's gonna happen because it's so staggeringly fuzzy and

Starting point is 03:19:29 unclear as to what any of that means. Trump has been talking about how there's gonna be like a 90-10 profit split where Americans take home 90% of the profits and Japan takes on 10%. Very weird, very weird. This is also... Look, it's worth noting that the last time we deliberately decap Japan's export manufacturing economy, treating the Plaza Accords, it kicked off an economic crisis that Japan has literally never recovered from. Like, people used to talk about the Japanese economy in the way that we talk about the Chinese economy now is like the emerging rising

Starting point is 03:19:59 unstoppable force that was going to, like, become the world's greatest manufacturing power, and we don't do that anymore, partially because of like Japan hit like structural overcapacity in the market, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Listen to me on every other episode where I talk about the Plaza Accords and structural global manufacturing overcapacity. But again, the second thing is we also made their manufacturing less competitive and it destroyed the entire global economy. Like it's the reason 2008 happened is because we did that and we're doing it again like

Starting point is 03:20:28 28% of the Japanese economy is based on like car exports. So that's great. That's fun. There's also been reports That there's a deal with the EU coming. I Don't know who knows I'm having to say what's in it because we don't know if this is going to happen There's that one in particular. There's a lot of things that can torpedo it, but it's not great. Also, these terrorists, by the way, are replacing the ones that are scheduled to go into effect on August 1st. Trump is still promising to put out tariff things for 120 countries or something like that. I don't know what the number is exactly right now. It keeps changing. He keeps also not writing those letters. So who knows?

Starting point is 03:21:04 Okie dokie yeah great way to have terrorist policy set is that trump says something on truth social and then doesn't do it as well as he does yeah sometimes he does it's good it's a good way to do things okay so speaking of things being done badly we need to talk about npr and pbs PBS because Republicans just cut 1.1 billion dollars from public broadcasting Which is like all again we reported on what Elmo said last week It's not a surprise that PBS is getting cut after this I actually Hold on we have not on this show talked about the fact that the PBS like sold Sesame Street. Yes, that's true. This is so ghoulish.

Starting point is 03:21:48 Like it does. Jenny, why not? Sesame Street was like one of the few like really, truly great triumphs of American state media. Like it was specifically designed to teach kids some underprivileged backgrounds how to read. Now it's on like like HBO Max or Netflix or something. I think some are still available on public broadcasts. Some of it's in a public domain.

Starting point is 03:22:04 Like it's probably on YouTube because it's been out for so long. Yeah, but like the problem is like this is genuinely one of the greatest public goods the US ever created and it was fucking looted and privatized and now as all of this funding is being cut, Trump has basically been pissed off at public broadcasting for ages. Actually, hilariously a lot of this, one of the big origin points of this was that they had friend of the show, Vicky Osterweil on NPR to do an interview about her book in defense of looting. And Republicans have been mad ever since. Like a few months ago, Trump signed an executive order to quote unquote,

Starting point is 03:22:38 end taxpayer subsidization of biased media, unquote, which specifically sought to defund MPR and PBS through ending contributions through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in the order saying, quote, government funding of news media in this environment is not only outdated and unnecessary, but corrosive to the appearance of journalistic independence. And instead, they replaced the role of PBS and NPR with one America News, the super far right mode in sending like American news overseas instead of promoting things like the Voice of America, they are explicitly entering a partnership with OAN, which is absurd.

Starting point is 03:23:17 Yeah, you see stuff like Voice of America News and the Cuban Broadcasting Office, right? Like where they, which are explicitly like these are things the US government does to advance its agenda abroad like this isn't and now the way that they're doing that is with one American because that probably does make it less effective I do want to circle back a little bit to what this is going to do to MPR and PBS because like the main central MPR I mean obviously it's a disaster for even like the national NPR. But like this is going to just annihilate any semblages of like local news, right? Like, yeah, because they rely on public broadcasting and NPR massively around the country, especially in rural areas.

Starting point is 03:23:57 Like one of the reports I was reading was talking about how like Texas was expecting to lose half of their like NPR stations and like rural areas. This is just like the apocalypse for any kind of like rural local news. And you know, obviously like this is a part of Trump's attempts to just consolidate all of the American media under his control through a combination of destroying this kind of stuff and then doing lawsuits. And also, and this is another thing we need to talk about is like, you talked about the Skydance merger and how that is, you know, is being used as leverage to like just destroy a gut CBS, loot it and turn it into just like a pro-Trump outlet, right?

Starting point is 03:24:33 Like allegedly entering in a cooperation deal with the free press from Barry Weiss to exert editorial control over CBS News News which will just take the outlet destroy 60 minutes one of the most respectable long-standing television news programs in the history of the country I think there's a very good argument that this is what Bezos is doing to Washington Post right is better for these people that news outlets don't exist or like seven people read the like unhinged far-right things and it is for like anything to actually exist this is all again like media consolidation of dictatorial regime being accelerated by

Starting point is 03:25:07 the fact that all of these things are owned either by corporations or individual billionaires. So that's bad. Speaking of bad, the EPA's Office of Research has just been eliminated. This is a unbelievable catastrophe because the EPA's Office of Research does all of the basic research about like, is this chemical dangerous? What does this chemical do to the environment? What does like, what do these pollution levels do? This is the part of the EPA that undergirds like basically all environmental regulations

Starting point is 03:25:38 and all regulations on things like chemical protection, right? It comes out of this Office of Research. That's where the standards are set. That's where the science is done that is used in basically like all like regulatory policy that the EPA does that other agencies used to and they're just destroying it. Trump has said that they're gonna move some of it to other offices but they've already been massively downsizing the EPA. Every day we edge closer and closer to just like this is a country with no environmental regulations. We're seeing it more and more. At some point on the show,

Starting point is 03:26:08 we're going to cover all of the unhinged shit that's been happening with the power stations and like generators set up to power AI stuff. I also want to specifically mention one of the things that the New York Times reported on, which is that the people who are running the destruction of the EPA have been trying to get rid of the integrated risk information system, which if you've ever dealt with dangerous chemicals, the integrated risk information system is the system that tells you what the effects of it are. Every chemical has one, right? And these fucking people, like there's a guy who's now in the American First Policy Institute,

Starting point is 03:26:45 which like Trump pulls a lot of shit from, who is literally talking about just getting rid of it because quote, Irish evaluations often rely on worst case scenario hazard assumptions that fail to consider real world exposure. That's kind of the situation with these things, isn't it? You do want to look at the worst case scenario. Yes. And when you don't look at the worst case scenario, one of the other agencies that's been like just destroyed is the US Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board, which is very famous

Starting point is 03:27:12 for doing a bunch of very, very good YouTube videos about like plant disasters and like how safety violations and safety lapses cause like fucking plants to explode. And that's just like gone now. And this is, you know, the world that these people want you to live in is a world in which you don't know what all these corporations are pumping into the environment around you and even if you can figure out what the chemical they're pumping like into the groundwater that you're drinking is you're not supposed to know what it does this is just like the basic infrastructure for how all American like chemical operations work. And they're just trying to destroy it.

Starting point is 03:27:52 You know, great. Speaking of chemicals. Yeah, speaking of chemicals and the government trying to destroy it. The government of Puerto Rico has passed a bill that bans gender affirming care of all kinds for anyone under the age of 21. Because 21 is the age- This is the highest that we've seen. But what's happening here is 21 is the age at which you become a legal adult in Puerto Rico, which is unhinged. Yeah, this is the highest ban we've seen. We've seen a couple of other places try to do it to 19. This also includes what's basically a height amendment for trans care, like all trans care

Starting point is 03:28:27 of all ages that says that like state money cannot be used. So state insurance, stuff like that in Puerto Rico cannot be used to pay for any gender affirming care at all. Which is fucking hideous. This is basically the thing we were trying to stop with Medicaid or that we did stop Medicaid last budget bill, but they've passed a local version of it This bill promises is I think it's up to five years in prison and fifteen thousand dollars in fines for anyone who gives Trans health care to anyone under the age of 21. So if you never plan to visit Puerto Rico

Starting point is 03:28:57 It's time to start mailing gender affirming care services to people in Puerto Rico The fun part too is this law is worded so loosely that there was genuine concern that it could apply to like, if you are a parent and you try to get your kid gender affirming care, this could apply to you. There's- I will say, I think that aspect of it is still a little bit unclear.

Starting point is 03:29:20 I don't want to inspire too much panic in that sense. Yeah. I think a lot of it is directed at people who work in the medical industry. But still, I think if you do not ever want to visit Puerto Rico and you want to help trans people, there's presumably like no ban on like the import of these products. I guess some products are themselves controlled. Yeah, I mean, in Shalaa, they don't start doing that. But because famously, there's never illegal drugs mailed in the United States.

Starting point is 03:29:52 They can't stop us fellows. We're getting the HRT one way or another. But this sucks and it will force people to adapt. And it's really unfortunate to see. But I do believe in the ability of trans people to overcome the state's attacks against us. Before we close, there's actually one other piece of important news that we need to discuss. We're turning once again to the stinky musk segment because the Tesla diner has finally opened. I know we've been waiting for this for a long time.

Starting point is 03:30:19 It is open in LA, right? Right? Yeah. So James, you need to get up there and go to the Tesla diner. They have cyber truck food containers. So that's cool. Cool. They have Tesla robots helping to serve food and drinks. It's what they're calling retrofuturist style. I would never say that. And most importantly, if you want to spend $12, you can get yourself a single serving of Epic Bacon. That's on the menu. It's called Epic Bacon for $12. $12 Epic Bacon at the Tesla Diner.

Starting point is 03:30:52 Why is it $12? Oh, they also opened it at $420. I saw that they also have avocado toast, which is great for those of us who will never afford a home. I can't support the Tesla Diner serving this Lib Cuck avocado toast. It needs to be beef tallow fries only. Well unfortunately they did put buttermilk bread with avocado toast so just so like vegan people can't eat there I guess. There you go. Yeah. And again I cannot go to the Tesla diner and I'll have to return to Buffalo Wild Wings at 2 a.m. like I did when I was up in LA covering the protest a few weeks ago. Buffalo Wild Wings at 2am like I did when I was up in LA covering the protest a few weeks ago. Buffalo Wild Wings opened that late?

Starting point is 03:31:29 Incredible. Let me tell you, it was a time. What other time are you going to be eating Buffalo Wild Wings? Are you lunching there like a fucking psycho? I have not been there since college, but it was a good time back in the day. It was a great time. Oh, God. No one looked to be weird for wearing a fucking plate carrier with press stamped on the front.

Starting point is 03:31:51 Yeah, because it's Buffalo Wild Wings. That is a war zone. It's basically one step removed from Waffle House. Yeah, which is in turn one step removed from Fallujah. James, you had something you wanted to plug. That's right. Okay, so we do have an email address. It's an encrypted email address, and you can you wanted to plug. That's right. Okay. So we do have an email address.

Starting point is 03:32:06 It's an encrypted email address and you can send us emails there. It is coolzontips at proton.me. We're also going to include a fundraiser this week. We're trying to do one of these every week. If there's someone in your community, like we're trying to focus on migrant fundraisers, people who are raising money for legal aid, people who need representation. I know immigration lawyers are either overworked or overpriced. There seems to be two brackets that they've gone into.

Starting point is 03:32:33 Hit me up. You can send that to me at that email address and we'll try and include more of them. This week we are fundraising for Primrose and you can find her GoFundMe page at www.gofundme.com slash F slash immigration hyphen lawyer hyphen four hyphen primrose. Primrose is out of detention right now, which is great, but I know she still has a lot of significant expenses and legal expenses coming up.

Starting point is 03:33:01 So if you would like to donate, if you'd like to help, this is a concrete thing you can do to help someone. We reported the news. We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Starting point is 03:33:58 You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. for It Could Happen Here, listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death

Starting point is 03:34:20 and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ian Pfaff, the creator and host

Starting point is 03:34:39 of the Uncle Chris podcast. My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history,

Starting point is 03:34:57 and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You the listener, ask the questions. Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree? Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair? And I find the questions. Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree? Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair?

Starting point is 03:35:26 And I find the answers. I'm so glad you asked me this question. This is such a ridiculous story. You can listen to American history hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. For My Heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road.

Starting point is 03:35:56 In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to The Turning River Road on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.

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