Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 208

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Starting point is 00:02:43 Welcome to It Could Happen here, a podcast. We're in the wake of Mom Dami's Victory. We are revising the old 2016 slogan, eat your pheasants, drink your wine, your days are numbered bourgeois swine. I am your host, Mia Wollong, and with me is Garrison Davis. looking unhappy. Well, this is actually the new mandatory greeting in New York as agreed yesterday, yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:08 Instead of saying hi on the subway or just trying to avoid each other, we have to all recite this now. It's pretty crazy. FDR used to call the U.S. to 48 states the Soviet of Seattle, and I haven't quite figured out what the version of that was in New York is yet. No, no. The New York City nationalism, it really is a thing. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:30 Yeah. Even if the country falls, I think New York will remain as a city-state beacon. Yeah. See, unfortunately, I'm having to temper my sort of Chicago win, like, this is a two-two Chinese city, like, stuff for this. And I'm also having to temper my, like, reflexive, not even reflexive, my incredibly well-thought-out in detailed thoughts on electoral. And so today, today, if I have to cover electoralism positively, we're doing this in sports format. We are, we are looking at what's been going on with the reaction to Mondani's win.

Starting point is 00:04:09 We are fully, we are fully doing winners and losers. It's going to be great. We're going to have a good time. I mean, I'm still traumatized from the World Series, so I don't really appreciate the sports framing. I actually World Series Game 7 I was watching it at a bar and then I had to go

Starting point is 00:04:31 across town to a different bar because I knew Zoron was doing the little gay bar hop on the same night as the World Series finale so I missed the last 30 minutes I had to leave during the ninth inning when the Blue Jays were still ahead and then

Starting point is 00:04:45 in transport the Dodgers tie they did two extra innings and then one and it was dead devastating and then I saw Bob Dottie dancing at a gay club like 10 minutes later. It was outrageous. You're welcome, welcome to being a Seattle Mariners fan. This is what it is like all the time for us.

Starting point is 00:05:08 I'm well aware. No, of course. What I'm not cheering for the Jay is usually I'm cheering for the Mariners. So I know. And again, the only way to survive this is to become a truly transcendent true Mariners fan where you are not in this for winning and losing. were in this for the fact that we had a guy whose name was big dumper because his ass was big as fuck and he hit 60 home runs. And that's what you're in this game for. Okay, okay. We're

Starting point is 00:05:36 going to turn this around. We're going to turn this around. We're going to actually start with winners with, I think the most serious thing that we're going to do today. Not a high bar. Yeah, not a high bar. But I think in the words of the great John Boyce, this moment belongs to her and that's Lindsay Bolin, who was the first woman to accuse Cuomo of sexual harassment, who is one of the bravest women I've ever seen, and she's having a great time. That's good. There's a bunch of pictures of her going around that she's posting. She's so happy.

Starting point is 00:06:08 It rocks. She's, yeah, she's just having a great time. This is like a dual pronged moment, right? One prong is just seeing Andrew Cuomo get completely humiliated for the second time in a row. Yes. And then the whole, you know, like perspective hope of what a Mamdani mayoral occupation could mean it's like a whole separate thing than just watching Cuomo get absolutely decimated, right? If there was someone who was only half as good as Mom Dani who destroyed Cuomo, it would still be fun to laugh at Cuomo, the fact that it's Mom Dani is just a little bit of like an extra extra icing on top, I guess. Yeah. I want to read a quote from her that she gave. This was from before, as best I can tell since the actual win, she's just been like partying and hasn't really been giving like, I think she went on democracy now, but like she had this great line from this piece in the independent that was titled, We Will Beat These Monsters. This is from the original primary win. I hope every woman who has ever faced an abuser like Cuomo knows she doesn't have to be ashamed. She doesn't have to hide because we will beat these monsters.

Starting point is 00:07:19 New Yorker said no more to Andrew Cuomo and that is just remarkable and this shit rocks this rocks. Fuck him like. Especially Cuomo who ran his campaign on being like it's dangerous to be a woman on the subway and we're like why because you're going to be on it

Starting point is 00:07:35 like his whole law and order New York is a dangerous scary place to live because there's predators out there was like a main part of his campaign. Meanwhile four years ago he resigned because he was a predator. Yeah, 11 11 women

Starting point is 00:07:53 came forward. Like, that's remarkable. It's astounding. And, you know, this is, hopefully this is, this is the beginning of many, many, many defeats that these fucking people will have over the coming years. Hopefully the last defeat for Cuomo,

Starting point is 00:08:09 but for others of his ill. Yeah, yeah, these users, there are many, many people who hold a whole variety of offices, and sometimes they're just like your boss or someone you work with or someone yeah and fuck him we're going to beat them all this rocks so that that's that's winner number one winner number two people with childs people with childs wow people with child look i agree i got so little sleep last night i was i

Starting point is 00:08:40 have no excuse i was up being extremely gay at like four in the morning um i'm really tired Yeah, people with children getting free child care, a thing that is, in fact, really good. Free child care would be pretty cool. And it's one of the few things on the Mamdani platform that, like, the governor herself is a pretty, pretty set on helping to achieve. And, you know, there's Spike Lee, who's having a great time, partying is just, just, just loving it. It's great. It's great. That's good. Yeah, renters, also good. But yeah, people, people who live in rent-stabilized apartments getting not the rent increased, and also there being more rent-controlled housing built. Good, good things, good things.

Starting point is 00:09:31 People who buy food? When I say people who buy food, right, you would think that's all people. Most of the people who we are going to be talking about on this list, those motherfuckers have not set foot in a grocery store in a decade. There really, truly is a class divide between people who, buy food and people who do not ever buy their own food? Yeah, it's like around, if you make around $200,000 a year, based on the time that you spend procuring your own groceries, people argue that it's more efficient for you to order or have people bring food to you and not do any of that work yourself. Yeah. And, you know, so we have that. We have, you know, I think that there's a

Starting point is 00:10:18 sort of macro point you can make here about, you know, the ties between affordability and the sort of the sort of politics affordability and the ways in which there are a bunch of people who would affect. And then there is the top 5% of the U.S. who do 50% of the country's consumer spending, who this is not going to affect because they do 50% of their consumer spending on bullshit. And also, I want to, I want to, I'm going to, I'm going to declare myself a winner because I fucking hate Modi and Zoran called Modi a war criminal and specifically talked about his mass killings of Muslims in Gujarat, which is the first time I've ever seen a major American politician talk about that. And fuck him, he's the butcher of Gujarat, eat shit. Yeah, this is a

Starting point is 00:10:57 kind of short winners section because, you know, I could list, like, people in New York City, like, who aren't really rich. Garrison Davis. Right. Like, you know, but this is mostly a losers episode. This is mostly a, oh my fucking God, the right is doing. a crash out. And oh boy, there are some great stuff. So I want to start the losers with Laura Ingram who, the

Starting point is 00:11:27 Chevron on her show. Who? Who? Who? Laura Ingraham. Wow. Fox News host. Evil. She's still on Fox News, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Her Fox News thing the Chevron on it was by

Starting point is 00:11:43 winning the Democrats are actually losing. Which is the most. God, I hope so From your mouth to God's ears, Laura It's so good It's the most There's a whole genre of this If I wanted to

Starting point is 00:12:02 I literally could have just Pulled things that were like The Democrats are winning by actually losing Like there's like Ross Douthit Who's like the sort of make work higher Like he's one of the old school Make Work Higher New York Times column this who's like a very, very weird Catholic

Starting point is 00:12:18 who used to advocate Catholics like taking the Benedict option and going into the woods and not interacting with society, which please Ross Douthit and your ilk. I mean, that's not very Catholic. Please do that. If you want to go argue theology

Starting point is 00:12:34 with Ross Douthit, go fucking go for it. Happily. Go do this. Yeah, but like, you know, Douthay in New York Times immediately is like, Mombani's victory is less significant than you think. And it's like, ah, yes. We are getting owed. We are not owned. We are not owned, et cetera, et cetera, solely turning into a corncob. Pumping the copium straight into my veins, yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:52 Mm-hmm. It's truly amazing stuff. I think it in the just pure cope vein is, did you see the Mike Cernovich post about this? No, no. Oh, my God. Okay, so I'm not going to, how do I say this? I'm not going to, so he's quote tweeting a video that's just like, it's like a five-minute video of like the Zetio, whatever, live stream.

Starting point is 00:13:16 of the after party and it's just Sernovich is just going this is a rowdy masculine environment you can feel the energy as the Heritage Foundation is putting members

Starting point is 00:13:27 through a struggle session and demanding a DEI Dean the left is winning true true and then like that is that is happening right now we'll be doing a piece on the heritage

Starting point is 00:13:38 struggle sessions probably later this week yeah yeah and that's the that's the do we accept the overt neo-Nazi or not

Starting point is 00:13:45 conflict which they are very divided on which is not a great sign gotta say gotta say don't don't love that but in another just incredible like I'm not mad thing

Starting point is 00:13:59 Surinovich post that and then quote tweets his own tweet and says if you didn't know anything about politics you would say this is the sign I want to be on conservative ink is joyless it's the house of scolding nags it offers young men nothing beyond moralizing and hypocritical lecture

Starting point is 00:14:16 this is probably also following the fallout of the Fuentes Tucker interview and the like sectarian right yep yep yep quote that's not really infighting necessarily but like these these debates on on Fuentes's place within the conservative party and this argument against what I guess like right wing cancel culture that you have people like vans like Matt Walsh talk about how like we should not be you know canceling people like Tucker or you know these young GOP staffers for white pharmacists for saying things that are offensive because we need to have a united

Starting point is 00:14:52 front against the left. Versus this whole other reaction from like Shapiro and you have heritage just caught in the middle of this and there's like senators and Mike Johnson who are trying to like keep this legitimate like anti-Semitic but like also like anti-Israel but through

Starting point is 00:15:09 anti-Semitism. Like this anti-Semitic section of the right led by Fuentes like keep it quarantined which is increasingly break in quarantine. So they're looking at how the right has devolved into this fighting and then seeing the election of Zoron and being like, oh, the grass is greener on that side, I guess, which is really odd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so funny because it's just like literally just all of the shit they've been saying about the left forever. They're just suddenly like, oh my God, they will, the some part of the right is like maybe, maybe not literally the neo-Nazi. And now they're like, oh, it's actually

Starting point is 00:15:46 it's actually the right that is the house of scolding nags who offer young men nothing beyond moralizing and hypocritical lecture which is it's just amazing it's I don't know it's so funny they're they're just losing it

Starting point is 00:16:01 insofar as there is a kind of important thing here it's that like in a moment where you know the sort of ruling party is becoming increasingly unpopular they're also fracturing from the inside to the extent where like their like worst nightmare

Starting point is 00:16:17 just got elected as the mayor of New York and instead of like rallying they're doing this shit? Very funny. There's been a few governor reactions. I'm going to pull from the Guardian here. Greg Abbott tweeted, join me in a moment of silence

Starting point is 00:16:34 for New York City, thoughts and prayers. Abbott's been losing it over this election. It's so funny. It's very good. Rick Scott is the center of Florida. It's the Guardian. Florida has welcomed those fleeing communists and socialist regimes

Starting point is 00:16:49 for decades, wrote Senator Rick Scott of Florida. Tonight is no different. Florida will welcome all freedom-loving New Yorkers. It's funny because that's very different from Abbott's promise of trying to tariff people who flee from New York to Texas.

Starting point is 00:17:06 Abbott's like, oh shit, hold on, maybe I can cash in on all of this money. We're going to get to whether people are actually fleeing New New York in a later segment, spoiler alert. Not yet, but, comma, there is still time. If we want people to flee New York, we're just going to have to do it ourselves.

Starting point is 00:17:30 Speaking of doing it ourselves, this podcast, we do it, but also the products and services support the show, do it. We cannot, in fact, do it ourselves. No, not yet. We have to at this point have the assistance of the capitalist. advertising industry. So enjoy, enjoy that. We are back. So let's turn to Elon Musk, who is, I mean, I guess for Elon Musk, he is kind of having a normal one. He is doing a bunch of his normal posts about how, like, Western civilization is doomed

Starting point is 00:18:17 unless the core weakness of suicidal empathy is recognized. Suicidal empathy. It's so bad. There's a very, very funny segment that I'm not going to play just because like I don't, I do not believe in exposing our dear listeners to having to listen

Starting point is 00:18:33 to Elon must try to talk because is just a Joe Rogan clip? Yeah, yeah. There's go of him on Joe Rogan where Joe Rogan's like, okay, why did you call Mom Donnie a swindler? And it's just a minute straight of Elon Musk going he has nothing

Starting point is 00:18:51 he can't even complete a full sentence he at one point says that you know swindlers will always say what the audience wants to hear and that's the only thing he's he that's the only complete thought that he gives the rest of his sentence

Starting point is 00:19:06 or attempts in making a sentence is just saying the word um like five times and then saying that well you know Zoron is actually quite charismatic His brain is so cooked It's so good It's and I say this is someone who stammers A significant amount

Starting point is 00:19:22 This is just There's nothing going on in his brain This is closer to head empty no thoughts Yeah Head empty no thoughts derogatory which Derogatory comma bad Always always derogatory

Starting point is 00:19:35 Always always derogatory Oh god So there's been this sort of mix Of like The world is falling with this also kind of oh my god he won and also this is a very attractive

Starting point is 00:19:50 charismatic dude it is kind of breaking these people's brains that there's just like a hot guy who beat the shit out of them there's like definitely sort of like psychosexual politics going on here you can see it in a bunch of weird shit you see people are posting no absolutely

Starting point is 00:20:07 Freud would have a heyday adorn would have a heyday writing about the psychosexual aspect of the anti-Zoron and obviously some of the pros that were on people as well. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this is a great things are happening in politics. Even Trump has had to defend his looks as being better than Mr. Mamdani.

Starting point is 00:20:28 Which objectively not true. Very funny. Saying it's quote-unquote a much better looking. It's so funny. But they'll also have this weird thing that some people on the left are doing. this is largely a Twitter thing but this does keep out into real world conversations which I've heard is

Starting point is 00:20:48 thirsting after Zoron's wife and comparing and comparing Zoron's wife to like Melania or something and like in a whole bunch of really weird ways Jesus Christ that's really weird don't do that look how like beautiful and aristocratic

Starting point is 00:21:06 Zoron's wife is versus oh my fucking God versus former porn star Melania Trump and you're like, come on. Country-built-a-masogyny. What are you doing, guys?

Starting point is 00:21:18 Is this the doing misogyny? You're doing misogyny. It's bad. Simply don't do that. But we do love the 27-year-old Zoomer, New York First Lady. Yeah, she fucking rocks. Good, good for her. Good for her. Check out her art. I want to turn a little bit to Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. He said, the Democrats in New York have chosen a true extremist and Marxist.

Starting point is 00:21:39 The consequences will be felt across our entire nation. He also said that Badami's policies are defunding the police seizing private property and massive tax increases, which I fucking wish. I mean, that does all sound kind of cool, but that is absolutely not what Zoron's current stated politics are. Yeah, and it's also funny because this is the same reaction they've had to every single Democrat who's been elected in the past 20 years. Totally. The right has so much just sort of weird projection shit. And I feel like They've been doing this whole

Starting point is 00:22:15 Like oh my God, you all called us fascists And now we're all fascists And it's like, no, you called Barack Obama Who was like the most neoliberal Democrat They've ever put in office Maybe second only to Bill Clinton Maybe Like you called him a communist

Starting point is 00:22:31 And now it's like, okay, this guy's a democratic socialist And you're just saying like Oh, this time now, this time it's communism This is like, okay, really no the boy who cried wolf thing that the right does all the time it depowers their own rhetorical tactics yep yep yep and you see this in

Starting point is 00:22:48 a few ways I think you've seen this in part with like the trans mass shooter thing and certainly they've been doing this thing around communism or socialism for a while to the point where you can have the mayor of New York proudly call himself a socialist a democratic socialist and gets elected with record

Starting point is 00:23:03 numbers yep so one of the things that he's going to be dealing with obviously is is the financial class. We're going to get to some more weird reactions, but there's a very funny NPR quote that I'm going to read. I'm always going to read this quote. I think it's the stages of grief, said Karen Wilde, who runs the partnership for New York City, an influential business group that represents more than 300 large employers. Which is very funny. They're fully in their like acceptance negotiation phase of this. Yeah. I mean, I think they might not be letting on the degree

Starting point is 00:23:40 to which they have been in this process for a while. There was like a final push among like Bloomberg who privately met with Mamdani like months ago and they like developed like a kind of like truce at which Bloomberg broke in the week before the election when he suddenly funneled millions of dollars

Starting point is 00:23:56 into Islamophobic ads and like 9-11 ads. But there was a lot of meetings happening between Mamdani and people who would make up his future administration and the business class which have happened since he won the primary in June. and this sort of negotiating and bargaining has been going on for quite a while.

Starting point is 00:24:16 And I think the acceptance now is really, the final, I mean, these steps aren't necessarily always, always like sequential, but I think we were rapidly approaching the acceptance phase across the city. And people are actually looking at, like, realistically, and what the, with the negotiating side of enacting these things is going to look like, including the financial people. Yeah, that said, Ken Griffin not happy at all. No, they're not happy. No, yeah, I'm going to quote him, this is a business insider. For the people of New York, I pray that the policies

Starting point is 00:24:50 Montaumey uses to govern and lead New York are different than the talking points he used to win the mayor race. People in New York deserve better. I do want to, I did cut out the part in the middle of there from the Business Insider where he said this Wednesday at the American Business Forum in Miami. Some of a fucking in New York like, for those to say. This is very funny. Hell yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:09 Very funny. In this sort of like crash out spectrum, there's little people who are like having the absolute worst time are a bunch of Israeli politicians who are very mad about this. Shocking. Yeah. I'm just going to quote to Washington Post here. Israel's far right minister of security,

Starting point is 00:25:27 Bangavir said Wednesday that Mamdami's win would be quote, remembered eternally as the moment when anti-Semitism overcame common sense. The Aspera Affairs Minister, Amichai Cheekly in an excoriating statement accused New York City of quote handing his keys over

Starting point is 00:25:43 to a Hamas supporter and this is also a giant loss for one Benjamin Netanyahu who Mamdami has said he will arrest if he sets foot in New York which rocks very funny

Starting point is 00:25:56 will this actually happen I don't know hilarious yeah I mean this these things just don't work anymore like they yeah like I watched a interview

Starting point is 00:26:05 with Jonathan Green Black, the head of the ADL, like, Good Morning America, like, talking about this and how they're establishing an anti-Semitism monitor to track the Zoron administration. And even, like, the hosts of Good Morning America were like, come on, man, like, that's not, he's not, he's not, what are we doing here? He's not an anti-semi. Like, he's, he's against, he's against the genocide in Gaza. Like, he's not, he's not, like, a Jew-hating anti-Semite. Yeah. And, like, they were even getting tired of Greenblatt's little like schick and how he was

Starting point is 00:26:38 constantly like performing to the camera to try to get people to like I don't report incidents that then they'll add into this monitor program so they'll try to blame the Mamdani administration for not protecting Jews or whatever yeah this was on

Starting point is 00:26:55 Morning Joe on MSNBC not good morning America my apologies this is also you know if you want to talk about another sort of category of losers It's just like all of the unhinged Islamophobia. Oh, yeah. Like, all of the people spreading that got annihilated.

Starting point is 00:27:11 Yeah. Just absolutely smashed. And, like, yeah, and, you know, it is worth saying. Like, yeah, like, this was one of the most racist campaigns I have ever seen that Andrew Cuomo sort of waged. It was just hideous. More racist than Trump versus Kamala, by far. Yeah. Like, like, exceptionally so.

Starting point is 00:27:30 And done by Democrat establishment figures, largely. Yep, man, I just rancid, and they got their ass handed to them. And I think that's good. There's a very, very public level of acceptance for Islamophobia. You can just say the most Islamophobic shit anyone's ever heard on TV, and it's fine, and no one does anything. But also, like, people don't fucking like that shit. It sucks. It's awful, and fuck these people, and, you know, I think this is sort of the tide turning.

Starting point is 00:28:00 And speaking of the tide turning, Bill Ackman, as we've talked about, on ED, bending the knee, saying, Zeron Wondami, congrats on the win. Now you have a big responsibility. If I can help New York City, just let me know what I can do.

Starting point is 00:28:15 Very good. To sort of close out this, like, the loser's section, I want to turn, there's a great piece and defector about the people who, who threatened to leave New York City

Starting point is 00:28:27 if Mamdani won, and unfortunately, reached out for comment. None of them were actually leaving. It's really sad. No, because people don't want to leave the city. It's a,

Starting point is 00:28:34 good city, which is the whole point of Zoron's campaign was about how much the city is cool and rocks, and Cuomo's campaign was about how much it's bad and scary. Yeah. And unfortunately, tragically, this does mean that you're going to have to have Dave Portney

Starting point is 00:28:49 and this whole crew of Barstool dipshits still in the city. So good luck. I hope you expropriate them. I hope they have a bad time. Now I want to move into my last category, which is the sort of baffling category. We got a kind of wild Obama, quote, quote, the future looks a little bit brighter.

Starting point is 00:29:26 It's a reminder that when we come together around strong forward-looking leaders, you care about the issues that matter, we can win. It's a very silly quote I The odds that Obama personally had At least one person on that campaign staff Beat and Dream Occupy are very high Like It's

Starting point is 00:29:47 It's really truly this moment of like brother You spent so much time trying to make sure this wouldn't happen And you have failed And now you're in the like I'm gonna do the Obama thing We're like I'm the friend of all the young leaders And I'm gonna give them the worst advice you've ever heard your entire life.

Starting point is 00:30:03 I don't know. Still have never gone over Obama personally intervening to make sure the NBA players didn't go on strike during the uprising. Oh, God. What of the worst, like, post-presidential moments I've ever seen?

Starting point is 00:30:17 I want to close on Jamie Diamond, the CEO of J.P. Morgan Chase, who when asked about Mondami, said, quote, he's a young man. Will he get good at it? Haven said about Mondami making and implementing good policies. I see a lot of people in big jobs,

Starting point is 00:30:31 including big political jobs. They grow into it. I've seen a lot of people. They kind of swell into the job. They get worse. They, you know, all of it becomes about them. I'm hoping he's the good one. And that will be important for the future in New York, he said.

Starting point is 00:30:46 True. True and real. No, I mean, like there's a lot of this slow capitulation, which we're even seeing with private comments from Trump that are being leaked into reporting through the New York Times, where in private Trump has called it Mr. mom, Donnie, a slick and good talker and a talented politician. And last Wednesday said that he might, quote, help him a little bit, maybe, unquote, and that he wants New York to succeed,

Starting point is 00:31:15 which is, you know, contrary to, like, previous threats of, like, pulling back all funding from Donny gets elected. Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of, part of this reaction is both, like, how strong Zoran's victory is. We all, like, know that Trump likes winners, but also the fact that Zoran has, like, very quickly tried to establish dominance over the president in some ways. But in a way that, like, someone like Trump, like, kind of respects with Mamdani positioning himself as, like, a legitimate, like, adversarial figure to Trump. Yeah. Like, right off the bat.

Starting point is 00:31:45 And there's a little bit of the Trumpian mind that actually kind of appreciates that and thinks it's, like, cool and impressive. During the first Trump administration, there was a whole running theory that if you could get Trump in a room with Hugo Chavez, you could be. make him a socialist in like an hour because he really does just repeat the last thing anyone in a room said to him so we're finally

Starting point is 00:32:08 going to test the theory of can we get a charismatic person in the room with him and make him do stuff he wouldn't normally do? And probably not but you know. I mean and like the biggest thing right now is like the difference in immigration policy but like Trump's from New York. Trump knows how much New York is a city

Starting point is 00:32:23 built by and run by immigrants. Like he knows that when Stephen Miller is like orchestrating all of his messaging. It's like the worst of the worst of the anti-immigrant stuff. But I think in terms of Zoron's opposition to Trump primarily being with immigration, I think Trump understands how immigration like rests very importantly into the identity of New York. And in which with that's like the main like oppositional force, I think Trump similarly will is, it's going to understand where Mamdani is coming from in a way. Yeah. And I think I think we are going to see like a particularly like Stephen Miller.

Starting point is 00:32:57 conflict as as this goes on. Absolutely. Because this is the perfect example of stuff that Miller and people like Matt Walsh and the great replacement people have been talking about. And the other huge batch of reactions that you're seeing from people like Walsh is that this election only went this way

Starting point is 00:33:13 because of how many foreigners were allowed to vote in New York. If this election was done by true New Yorkers, quote unquote, then Cuomo would have won. And looking at the results in this election, looking at how many immigrants voted. People who have moved to New York in the past 10 years, past five years, Momdani did very well with those groups.

Starting point is 00:33:30 You have a lot of these, like, far-right anti-immigration people pointing towards that as being like, this is what we're trying to defend the country against, or else all of our elections are going to go like this, unless we make sure that only white Americans can vote. Yeah, and then, so there's that reaction, the other, the other reaction from roughly that crowd is women cannot be allowed to vote. Yes, which they also believe that. like yeah yeah this analysis obviously has faults but it's it's even falling apart in terms of like the young male vote yeah yeah they got hammered which the republicans have you know have been been very

Starting point is 00:34:08 excited about about how much you know young men are voting for the republican party right young young men are all republican even even if young women are all the democrats and you see in in specifically this election where mom daddy is up 40% with young men and the divide among men is mostly through age, with older men going for Cuomo. And millennials and Gen Z men swinging very strongly towards Mamdani. You have all these like Democratic think tanks trying to figure out how do we attract the young male vote. How do we do this? And you have a guy show you what kind of policies, what kind of messaging works exceedingly well. Yeah. Which established people tried so hard to kill that strategy. And it was proven twice in a row,

Starting point is 00:34:51 first with the primary and even more so with the general. And yeah, that will frighten the GOP. It'll frighten them seeing that young men will vote for a Democratic socialist. If they actually have these policies and you have this type of like solid messaging, they're not condescending and the candidate embodies like a new generation of change. It's very, it's very threatening to the GOP and to establishment Democrats. Yeah, like I've seen Steve Bannon's out here being like if he'd, lose in the midterms and lose in 2028, I'm going to prison, which I...

Starting point is 00:35:25 From your mouth to God, I'm fucking so. Like, no, the biggest mistake that Democrats made last time. Well, there's many, many big mistakes, right? Palestine being a huge one. But I think a huge mistake they made is not completely destroying Trump and his whole, like, had its ability to, like, exist in public life. Like, Trump should have been immediately in prison for trying to overthrow the government and basically sent into a hole. and after that Supreme Court ruling on presidential immunity it should have been taken out as a national security threat

Starting point is 00:35:57 like Democrats cannot cannot play this like they go low we go high game anymore if we're going to get out of this and it's probably not going to be the Democrats to do this but like our Nuremberg is going to have to make the original Nuremberg look like paperclip like well that's what the original Nuremberg was the original Nuremberg also sucked

Starting point is 00:36:15 but you see this is that we are Nuremberg two Nuremberg harder I see yeah I actually doing it yeah I I really like Jacob Geller's video on Nuremberg and it is it is a nice emotional place to fall back on in times of of torment but I don't think we're in Nuremberg ourselves out of this one and unfortunately I don't have a very strong solid alternative at the moment but at the very least Trump should have been treated much much harsher after after January 6th yeah we can leave it as for now, Nuremberg. Towards an ascendant, Nuremberg. Well, this has been a good happen here. A rare, a rare upbeat episode where all of our enemies are having a very bad time.

Starting point is 00:37:08 Yeah, they're also mad about Lena Kahn on the transition team. Oh, yeah, very funny. They're so mad. Very mad. Go to Transition 2025 to learn more about, Zoron's my old transition team

Starting point is 00:37:22 A fantastic URL. Really, really going for it with Transition 2025. Stealing trash salary. True. Real. You go, girl. I give Zoron the pass. He can say it. Zoran Bob Dobby, estrogen.

Starting point is 00:37:39 No, no, no. He's fine as he is. We're transing the governor. He's actually a good-looking man. He doesn't need it. He's actually figured it out. Anyway, we're ended here. All I know is what I've been told. All I know is what I've been told, and that's a half-truth is a whole lie. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved, until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story. I'm telling you, we know Quincy Kilder, we know.

Starting point is 00:38:37 A story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national TV. Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran. My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her, or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y'all said. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her. From Lava for Good, this is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

Starting point is 00:39:26 America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season at free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of heavyweight,

Starting point is 00:39:59 I help a centenarian mend a broken heart. How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again? And I help a man atone for an armed, robbery he committed at 14 years old. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. And he got down. And I remember feeling kind of a surge of like, okay, this is power. Plus, my old friend Gregor and his brother tried to solve my problems through hypnotism. We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're like super charming all the time. Being more able to look people in the eye. Not always hide behind a microphone.

Starting point is 00:40:37 Listen to Heavyweight on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way. Yo, yo, can we get Thanksgiving first? I'm hungry. Hey, y'all, it's Kadeen. And deval. The hosts of Ellis Ever After podcast. This holiday season, whether you're cooking for the family,

Starting point is 00:41:06 out buying gifts for the kids, Or crowded in holiday traffic. Tune out the noise and tune in to Ellis Ever After. On Ellis Ever After, we get rid with our crew about family. If you feeling like you're feeling, that's probably because you're a good parent. Friendship. Be careful what you put in your body. Move your body and love it the way you love them cars that house and clothes, them clothes, them shoes.

Starting point is 00:41:29 Them brunches. Love and marriage. You know what's become attractive to me? And it's because I've self-corrected and I guess I detoxified myself. accountability. Like, it has become so attractive to me and everything else in between. I've told my most embarrassing moment on this podcast before,

Starting point is 00:41:48 which was me taking a shit in a zip lock bag. So listen to Ellis Ever After on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and love within each other. Thanksgiving isn't just about. food. It's a day for us to show up for one another. I'm Elliot Connie, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope. What would be a

Starting point is 00:42:18 clue that would be like? I've gotten lots of text messages from him. This one's from a little bit better of a version of him. Because he's feeding himself well, it's always a concern. Like, are you eating well? He's actually an amazing cook. There was this one time where we had neighbors and I saved their dog and I ended up and buying them over for food. And that was like, one of my proudest moments. This is Family Therapy, real families, real stories on a journey to heal together.

Starting point is 00:42:44 Listen to season two of family therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everyone, and welcome to If It Could Happen here, a podcast where I have just been attacked for my identity as a British person

Starting point is 00:43:06 by my colleague Garrison Davis. Hi, Gare. It's going to happen again. This podcast is not a safe space. Not for British people, sadly. Many such places for us, including Britain, which is a country which is not doing so well right now. But Britain is still very safe. I don't want to talk about Britain today.

Starting point is 00:43:28 I do, incidentally, I guess, because I grew up in a country that has virtually no fucking public land. I mean, enclosure of the comments. It's actually kind of topical. Yeah, it is. That is a question that actually, so earlier this year in September, I was staying with Quichin people who are indigenous to the northern Alaskan interior, Arctic and sub-Arctic. And one of them was like, hey, how did you guys get so dislocated from your lands? One of my friends who I was talking to, and it was a really interesting question for me, right?

Starting point is 00:44:00 Because they have lived on that same land for as long as human beings who have existed in the Americas. like 25,000 years, something like that. Like the answer is the enclosure of the comments, right? The answer is like proto-capitalism is what removed folks like me from the land and identifying it in a way that those people identify with the land. But in the United States, we do have a little bit, or quite a lot actually, of public land, right? Various different types of public land, various different land and protections that anyone can go to, you don't have to be an American or a citizen.

Starting point is 00:44:39 Anyone can go to public lands and enjoy them. Unfortunately, Utah Senator, quote-unquote, based Mike Lee, is once again attempting to weaken protections on wilderness, which will render some of the small parts of the USA that have not been fundamentally damaged by capitalism, permanently and irrevocably changed. Are you familiar with Mike Lee? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:03 Is the Senator from Utah? The senator from Utah, yeah. And he's based, as you have said. Yes, he's based, right? He's a hashtag poster. He's a poster, yeah. He operates a Twitter account, which some might deem as offensive, and tweets about current events in a very provocative way. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:24 Usually in line with some kind of partisan sentiment. Yep. That's pretty fair. Specifically following the assassination of Melissa Hortman and her husband made a series of of tweets that were, I guess, kind of insensitive, if not actually, if not laying blame at the governor of Minnesota in a kind of ironic, joking way where you have plausible deniability, but in general handled that situation very grossly. And I think that that's what most people might know his tweets for, but he's very active. He's tweets about many things, many a thing.

Starting point is 00:46:00 Yeah, yeah, he's, if he thinks that he posts it. But yeah, yeah, his, most people will know as a guy who made the extremely poor taste posts following those murders. Nightmare on walls the street. Yeah. Just not nothing to be posting when some people have been murdered. I think in general when people are murdered, I think we assume it should post less. Yeah, yeah, right. If somebody has died, like, just don't post.

Starting point is 00:46:28 You know, it may be nice to say this is terrible, send your condolences or whatever, but realistically, their family aren't looking on Twitter.com. to see who's sending their condolences, but they sure as fuck we'll find out if you try and make a funny about it. So just don't. Just resist the urge to post. Another urge that Mike Lee sadly have is...

Starting point is 00:46:49 I don't like this at all. Yeah. You don't like that we're talking about Mike Lee's urges. Okay, it's in the broadcastable space. Mike Lee has the urge to sell off public land. He has tried twice this year. We spoke about this a little bit on ED, right? We talked about it in the context of the big beautiful bill or the one big beautiful bill act.

Starting point is 00:47:13 Yeah, he did try that like half a year ago. Yes, he did. Well, Garrison, I regret to inform you that Mike Lee is back. Somehow Mike Lee has returned. Yeah, and this time he has got a new thing. So last time, if you remember, he talked about selling off the public land to make affordable housing. sure sure yeah not going to look into this any further that was exactly what he was relying on that no one gave a shit about the millions of acres that we all get access to and they would just

Starting point is 00:47:46 trust him on that one based mike lee in his abundance agenda yeah exactly it's him and zoran shaking hands when it comes to affordable housing but something they care about very much I'm sure something that mike lee has campaigned on for years he did Gnostic landing on that because people read the proposal and they noticed that it was going to do nothing for housing affordability whatsoever. If it did create any housing at all, it was going to be like super rich people's McMansions. This was not going to do anything to move to the need unaffordable housing in the US. This time, he has found a cause which receives even less scrutiny. Can you guess what it is, Garrison? Uh, uh, for, for,

Starting point is 00:48:33 why we need to sell the public lands? Yes. I'm trying to not just look ahead on your script. Yeah, there is a document in front of you, which has the answer. So close your eyes. I feel like there's like two or three things in the US where everyone just seems to turn a blind eye to like... I mean, is it for like, is it for like developing land for like oil, data centers? Well, that probably is what's happening, but he's smart enough to say.

Starting point is 00:49:03 that, right? Super gold magic harp as in the film Eddington. I mean, I would guess the data centers, but that's, I could be wrong. It's border security. Oh, great. Of course.

Starting point is 00:49:19 Right, you could have said anti-terrorism and probably got there too, but no, it is securing our southern, well, all our borders actually. Southern border, northern border, eastern, western maritime borders. Obviously, they're looking to prevent any more people coming in from Canada.

Starting point is 00:49:37 Utah's not a border state. That is correct. That's why I didn't say borders, because you... I saw you go to search something. I literally pulled up a map of the United States. I was like, I don't think Utah's a border. Maybe I'm misremembering, but Utah's not a border state. Yeah, Utah is absolutely not a border state, Garrison.

Starting point is 00:49:56 It is actually not a border state. It is above Arizona, which is a border state. Yeah. So that is perhaps what's going on here. Mike Lee has found a way to sell off public lands without selling off Utah public lands. Oh, in this case, not really sell-off, but destroy and degrade in a way which is very clearly going to lead to commercial exploitation, right? What Lee proposes, what leads to Bill, has a bunch of co-sponsors. I believe the only border state senator co-sponsoring it is Ted Cruz.

Starting point is 00:50:27 Yeah, makes sense. Big public land respecter. But Lee's bill would allow the Department of Homeland Security to, quote, inventory illegal roads and trails on public land within 100 miles of the border and then convert them into navigable roads. That is the part that makes no sense, right? Like when you look at Lee's statements, and I will read one of Lee's statements here. So this is a statement on the Senate Energy Committee, like, web page where they talk. about Energy and Natural Resources Committee. Here's a quote from Mike Lee explaining his bill.

Starting point is 00:51:05 Quote, Biden's open border chaos is destroying America's crown jewels. I'm going to pause here to note that. According to my watch, we were at November 7th, 2025. Well, your watch is wrong. Yeah, we're once again asking the most important question of our time. Who was the president? Who is? He used the present tense. It's not even like talking about 2020

Starting point is 00:51:35 in pretending that Trump wasn't president. He's doing it right now. That's the arts quarter policies are destroying our natural lands. Yeah, like we were a year after the election. You've had time to come to terms with this. You can't just keep pointing at Joe Biden. But apparently, I guess you can. They're going to keep doing that for three more years

Starting point is 00:51:58 until there's a new guy. Yeah, I do. So let's go on with Chairman Lee, his chairman of this Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, right? Families who want to enjoy a safe hike or camp out are instead finding trash piles, burned landscapes, and trails closed because rangers are stuck cleaning up the fallout. Cartels are exploiting the disorder,

Starting point is 00:52:21 using these lands as cover for their operations. This bill gives land managers and border agents, tools to restore order and protect these places for the people they were meant to serve. He's doing the thing where he says one thing and then his bill does something completely different. Yeah. What he is saying is on the face of it somewhat ridiculous,

Starting point is 00:52:40 but what he's claiming he's going to do is protect these lands, right? What the bill allows them to do is to find roads that are not permitted and turn them into navigable roads. So just actually pave roads? Yes. In the protected wildlife?

Starting point is 00:52:54 Yeah, well, crucially, in wilderness areas, right? So the 1964 Wilderness Act does not allow for there to be any mechanized access. Lee's bill proposes not just to amend the Wilderness Act for within 100 miles of the border, but to amend it entirely to allow for the construction of roads. So that they can police the public lands better?

Starting point is 00:53:22 That's what he's saying. Yeah, right. Well, one of his claims is for search and reference. rescue, and there are already exemptions that allow for mechanized search and rescue access, right? Yeah. Things like helicopters, right? Helicopters.

Starting point is 00:53:34 Yeah. And even like, you get like motorized gurneys, you can use Vassar, things like that, right? Like even ATVs, right? There's a threat to human life. A Toyota Tacoma. Yeah. I mean, you'd struggle in most wilderness lands with a Tacoma. But yeah, you could give it a college try.

Starting point is 00:53:51 But it's ludicrous. He hasn't even made an effort to join the dots, you know? It also calls for fire mitigation by clearing fuels and building fire breaks and includes a provision that would, quote, address invasive or non-native species. In the wilderness area? Yeah, like, what are you going to go in there and round up? Because everyone's planting and spreading invasive species.

Starting point is 00:54:15 Yeah, I mean, of course, they're invasive species, right? Like, if you go to parts of where I live, you'll see mustard, which is not an indigenous species, because the climate's changing and people move around the world. and lots and lots of animals that weren't here 20,000 years ago are here now. I mean, you can make an argument for managing these areas.

Starting point is 00:54:33 I don't think he's coming at this from an environmental conservation standpoint. Yeah, I don't know what the non-native species thing is about other than just like nativism for plants. Like, I genuinely can't work it out. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know. It also attempts to inventory damage

Starting point is 00:54:50 done to public lands by migrants. Like what wildfires are caused by migrants. How many national parks are trashed by migrants? Oh my God. Yeah. As opposed to the American citizens

Starting point is 00:55:02 who treat these areas like dog shit. Yeah, like the park rangers who simply just don't do their jobs because they're too lazy. Yeah, and like the literally thousands of people a year who fucking drag their refrigerator

Starting point is 00:55:12 or television onto public land and execute it by firing squad. Yeah, like maybe make a bill about that and you want to do something nice for public land. I want to give a definition of wilderness from Howard, I think it's Zanisup. ever read his name of the Wilderness Society who more or less wrote the act. It defines

Starting point is 00:55:29 wilderness as, quote, a wilderness in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor and who does not remain. I don't actually really like that definition. I like wilderness, but I'm not a big fan of the idea of like quote unquote untouched wilderness right like every bit of what is now the united states is a place where indigenous people have been living and surviving for 10th of thousands of years long before it was the united states it's not untouched it's just not fucked by extractive capitalism in a way that a lot of our land has been in the last 200 years

Starting point is 00:56:11 you there could be touching without a fucking is what you're saying I saw this. I saw this mischievous look come on their face and I didn't know which direction they were going to take it. I didn't expect that one. Now this is podcasting. Yeah, wow, yeah. We've just left the newsreel. Let's do an advertising break, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:56:39 We can't come back from that. All right, we've returned. I've desandalized myself. Lee is currently making his claims, right, that this will somehow make the border safer and make people on public land safer. This is such the thinest justification that you're throwing in, like, this is so I severely doubt. He sincerely even believes this. Yeah, I mean, the Border Patrol have access to all these lands, right? Like, I see, I think the Hacumba Wilderness, the State Wilderness,

Starting point is 00:57:20 I see Border Patrol in there all the time. I can see there's many reasons for why a Republic might be interested in, like, building road infrastructure in these places. And border security, frankly, is insulting that he's even trying to use that as a zeitgeist justification. Yeah, it's fucking ludicrous. Like, the Trump administration is speed-running, extractive capitalism on our public lands. Right. Just yesterday when we're recordings, we're recording on Friday. Joe Biden is president, as you will remember. Friday, 7th November 2025. The Trump administration nominated, okay, I've outed myself. I'm not a Biden. I'm not a Biden truther. The Trump administration nominated Steve Pierce to lead the Bureau of Land Management. Pierce is a former New Mexico congressman who has supported drilling and fracking on federal land. He's also a serial loser in. congressional and state races in New Mexico. I think he lost a Senate and a gubernatorial race,

Starting point is 00:58:19 and he has voted to shrink existing public lands. The Trump admin did this before, right? People will probably, if they're engaged in public lands advocacy, will remember the attempts to save the Bears' ears national monument from oil exploitation, which again is in Utah. Utah is, for whatever reason, Utah is a hotbed of anti-public land. settlement. Amusingly, the previous nominee for the leadership of the BLM had to be removed when emails condemning Trump's response to January 6 came to light. She, I guess, failed the loyalty test. Trump has also put Doug Bergam at the head of the Department of the Interior, right? You're familiar with Bergam's schtick, yeah. His name sounds incredibly familiar.

Starting point is 00:59:10 Yeah, he was governor, I believe, in North Dakota. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, like he did this pivot on like culture war issues where he had previously been not opposed to abortion, for example. And he just like took a massive swing to the right in order to kind of align with the Maga position over time. So he's now leading the Department of the Interior. I wrote about this on my little newsletter that I write because when he was nominated, he received a letter of support from the outdoor recreation. Roundtable, a bunch of outdoor brands. Notably, R.E.I was one of the brands that supported his nomination. Bergam is another big oil and gas guy, right? He's a guy who has talked about the need

Starting point is 00:59:58 for energy exploitation on public land. I have a whole scripted series that I'm working on about specifically drilling in the Arctic refuge. But this goes far, far beyond that, right? This could potentially affect every piece of public land, every national park, every national monument in the United States. Drill Baby Drill. Yes. Drill Baby Drill is pretty much our approach to public land these days. Amusingly, R.E.I was shamed into rescinding their support of Bergam.

Starting point is 01:00:24 Good for them. Yeah, one of the few instances where people probably posted their way to a change in some kind of policy, I guess, even though it's only RIA policy. I want to talk a little bit about how we got to this idea of public land. And the sort of way that it's sometimes referred to and in a way I would prefer, we talked about, I guess. The idea we have right now is that there are various tiers of public land, right? There's Bureau of Land Management land, which is often the least protected. We have national parks.

Starting point is 01:01:03 We have national monuments. We have national forests. And we have wilderness, right? Wilderness being among the most protected. The problem with this approach is the ecosystems don't. necessarily respect property lines, right? So let's take, for example, the Gwich Inn in Alaska, right? They have hundreds of thousands of acres of their own, but their traditional way of life and indeed like their existence depends on the existence of the porcupine caribou herd.

Starting point is 01:01:31 The porcupine caribou herd makes the longest migration of any land mammal on earth and it carves on the coastal plain. The coastal plain, the Gwichian way of saying it would be, I have heard this said a lot of times. My sincere apologies, if I don't get it right, like I'm trying my best. Quatsan, Guandae, goodlit. It means a sacred place where life begins. It's a very sacred place for Gwitchin don't go there themselves because it's a sacred place, but it is not in their land. It is part of the Arctic Refuge, a place where the Trump administration is selling oil and gas leases, right? So if the Caribou can't carve, then it doesn't matter. It's still. matters that the Guit should have all this land, but they won't have their caribou, right? Because

Starting point is 01:02:17 the herd will be so disrupted by oil and gas drilling where it's carving that it will then disrupt that whole landscape, right? Without caribou, that landscape would be fundamentally different. So right now, the way we talk about public lands, I think, we talk about them like in terms of leisure, right? Like, often they're seen as having a value. Like, I guess the classic example would be, maybe you don't remember this gig. Patagonia ran an advertising campaign called the places we play in the last Trump administration. That's not it, right? That is not cool. I think if we only see wilderness as a place where like folks go outside to do send the gnar on climbing routes and, uh, and fucking shred some mountain bike trails, bro, then we fundamentally

Starting point is 01:03:06 like miss the value of it, right? Yeah. This goes back a long, long time. For instance, if we look back in 1999, specifically with the protection of the Arctic Refuge, we can see this piece that Bob Marshall wrote. Bob Marshall was a forest at the time, but he's kind of important in this, creating this idea of like wilderness or wilderness protections. He talked about the quote-unquote emotional values of the frontier being preserved in the wilderness, which again, I think, kind of tells us a lot of what's going on here. It's a very, very Theodore Roosevelt brained approach to conservation. Like, we can go out there and we can all pretend to be, like, the guys who participated in a genocide of indigenous peoples of North America, I guess.

Starting point is 01:03:50 Like, he also, he considered using the definition, a tract of solitude and savageness, which again, like, it says a lot about, like, it's removing the people from the land, right? Like, both literally and in our conception of it. And I don't think we should do that, right? When we talk about wilderness, we need to talk about it hand in hand with the indigenous people of this country. their traditional management practices, which allowed this place to be unspoiled until folks started to exploit it in the last couple of hundred years. Let's take an ad break. Hopefully we get something for like fracking or some other petrochemical industry, and we'll be right back.

Starting point is 01:04:42 are back, and we are talking about Senator Mike Lee again. Garrison, would you like to guess which industries have emerged on the top of Senator Mike Lee's donor list when I cruise onto open secrets? Is it fracking and drilling? It's actually real estate. He's got a ton of money from real estate, about $665,000. $665,000 is not that much money when you're, consider the millions of acres of public lands, which would be completely and permanently altered

Starting point is 01:05:19 by this, right? Yeah, he really should be asking for a lot more money to sell off the public plan. Secure the bag if you're going to do this. It's grossly undervalue. Yeah, I always look at campaign donations and I kind of expect them to be in like the billions or trillions when like you're looking at just this massive and permanent change in government policy. It's that easy, folks. Yeah, which is why we are launching a crowdfunding campaign to buy back or the public lands. We're not. No one should own them. We should not be buying them back, but they should be protected. It's kind of remarkable how many of our public lands this would impact, right? Within 100 miles at a border, that gives us two-thirds of the United States population. The general definition that DHS has operated with also includes all of the Great Lakes as quote unquote international waterways. So that that takes in a good chunk of the Midwest, right? It would then go 100 miles from the shore of any of the Great Lakes. I've seen this reported on very poorly or not at all. A lot of the people

Starting point is 01:06:32 who are better at talking about public lands are like the hunting, fishing, like hook and bullet media, they will talk about it more. In my, uh, experience and like the straight up outdoor media, right, which is where I've made my career at least somewhat for the last 15 years. They will also go harder for it. Like it's generally a more conservative world, but like they will they will go after politicians who sell public lands. But I think if you're incapable of understanding that like the border as a zone of exception, the border as a zone without constitutional rights is a problem. And this selling of the public land is part of that problem, then, like, it's very hard to have a complete analysis of this.

Starting point is 01:07:15 So, like, I've seen a lot of analysis without any, seemingly where the writers don't understand that United States operates this 100-mile border enforcement zone, right? And that you, as a U.S. citizen or as an on-sist and have fewer rights within that enforcement zone, I have seen a lot of analysis, which doesn't take into account this weird assessing of migrant damage to public land. in what world is that a useful allocation of government reserves? Like there are places, right, where, like, if I think about the places where the Biden administration did outdoor detention, that landscape was damaged because people had fires

Starting point is 01:07:55 to stay warm and that fire, of course, is scarring, right, in our desert landscapes. Yeah, that landscape is damaged. Like, how are you going to, what are you going to do? There were like a thousand people a day coming through at one point. Are you going to find them all and charge them all for, like, misdemeanor, California of fire. It also, there's a tiny provision of this bill that I found that suggests that migrants cannot be housed on federal public land unless they are housed in a detention center. Yeah. Yeah, great. Thanks. That was kind of the case before. Like, you couldn't

Starting point is 01:08:31 really just be like, well, I mean, the Biden administration did just say, right, you all camp here and we'll come get you in a week. There wasn't really a legal precedent for that. They just went ahead and did it. I guess what I want to end up with is like I'm obviously very passionate about this. I guess I'm kind of a public land super user. You do be camping. Yeah, I do. I am a yeah, I am a camping guy. If there's one thing that defines me, it's going camping. I try and sleep outside at least once a month. But yeah, most of my happiest memories in life are like moving under my own power through the mountains. That is when I'm happiest. That is how I deal with my shit. That is what I do with myself after every single one of the traumatic work trips

Starting point is 01:09:12 that you seem to love listening to you, right? That is how I cope with the fact that my job is to turn trauma into stuff to go in between Chumba Casino ads. So yeah, I love public lands, but you should too. Even if you don't recreate on public lands, right? Sometimes the public lands are called America's best idea. I don't like that because inherent in having public lands is a removal of them from indigenous people, right, and indigenous people losing their sovereignty over those lands. But as things that the state has done with land goes, protecting it for future generations is one of the good ones, right? Like, there are some truly special places. The vastness of the Western United States is why

Starting point is 01:09:59 I live here. I cycled across the United States in 2010, and I was just blown. away by like the scale of the landscapes without significant human damage. That's still something unblown away by, you know, 15 years later. I spent as much time as I can. Not just like national parks. I think a lot of people, if they've visited public land, will associate it with national parks. I'd really encourage you to like hit up national forests, wilderness lands, like places where there is not a line or a ticket kiosk.

Starting point is 01:10:30 Like you can have a really special wilderness experience there. But even if you don't want to, if there doesn't appeal to you, if it's not something that you feel physically or otherwise comfortable doing the fact that it will be there for future generations the fact that like there is potential to return this land to the indigenous people of North America

Starting point is 01:10:50 without giant fucking mind scars and roads cut through it right now is something that we should fight for and like public lands it's one of those things where like I have conversations with dudes who do not agree with me politically at all like people who definitely voted for Donald Trump,

Starting point is 01:11:07 who are also furious about this shit. And if you can help people see that this is part of a bigger problem, like if this can be a place where we can build a coalition, that is a good thing. And it's one of those things that, like, to take action, you can just lib out and go on the internet and write to your senator, call your representative. Like you can do these things which are so easy, low risk.

Starting point is 01:11:31 And like, it's a sort of engagement that like neoliberal bipartisan and politics wants you to have, right? It's not hard. But in this instance, you can do something really good by doing that. So I would encourage you to do that. Mike Lee's bill is currently in committee, I believe, the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, TBD, whether it gets out of there. But he has tried twice, like since the summer, to significantly destroy this incredible thing that we all have access to in the United States. He will continue to try. This is clearly something that he has an agenda for. So, like, I would really encourage people to keep an eye out. We will keep reporting on it. Anything else? Do you want to talk about public landscare?

Starting point is 01:12:19 Yeah, I mean, it's a different approach to dealing with, like, protected wilderness land. Prop 1 to amend the state constitution just passed in New York. But basically what happened, like a hundred years ago, they were building this Olympic sports complex in violation of the wilderness, like protection, like state, like act or part of the Constitution. Yeah. And to deal with that, I'm not sure why it's taken this long, but to deal with this, they have just days ago voted to amend the Constitution to set aside 2,500 acres of mountain land nearby. but not on this complex and to turn that into protected land to then

Starting point is 01:13:07 continue the operation and maintenance of the sports complex. The proposition was worded a bit weird but I think in effect this just results in there being in the end of more public land or more protected land specifically

Starting point is 01:13:23 and the complex that already exists can then continue to function because the land already, it was already used. Yeah, right. Like, they sort of built it and then asked permission, like, I guess, a hundred years later. Oh, almost a hundred years later. Like, land swaps happen. They, like, and like, like, sometimes you'll see people being like, oh, this is public land being sold off. Like, sometimes land swaps are very

Starting point is 01:13:47 menial, right? Like, if there's a little parcel of national forest land or, like, it's a piece that, like, it's next to a school and the school needs a playing field and those, yeah, things like that, land swaps do you happen. And then as long as we're not. like losing acreage to oil and gas or to like McMansion building. You know, I think we can be flexible. No, I mean, if anything, this will set aside thousands of acres of

Starting point is 01:14:11 land to not have that happen to it. Yeah. In the mountains of like... Van Rondacks, right? Yes. And then this complex can now continue to get maintained. I think if this didn't pass, they would, like, restrictions

Starting point is 01:14:27 would fall upon the capacity of this complex to continue operating. That's dumb. you have a place which is like, it's not going back, right? Like, once you've built stuff, you should use it. The damage has been done, and now you should use it here and then protect more land. Exactly, yeah. And luckily, this thing barely passed. It was pretty closely around 52% yes.

Starting point is 01:14:47 Most of the votes for no did come from people, I think, living in New York City. I think mostly because of the way the proposition was worded. It was worded in an odd way because it made it sound like you're like sacrificing currently protected land at this complex is on. So I think people who are approaching this from like kind of an ecological standpoint, a conservation standpoint, like misunderstood or had some like differing view on like the value of protecting the current land of the complex is on versus establishing thousands of acres of more land to be protected nearby. Right. Yeah. I mean, initiatives and propositions are often written in a particularly bizarre way.

Starting point is 01:15:28 And it's a, it's not like the California Prop 50 was like two lines. This is several paragraphs of, so I can see how it would have been confusing to people. But yeah, like this also happens at a state level all the time, right? Like states have public lands too. You'll see like a patchwork of state and federal and private land, especially like in some national forests in the West. But that's something that especially in Republican-run states now, people should be very aware of in their own states is like, The GOP didn't used to be massively anti-public lands. This is a new thing for them, right?

Starting point is 01:16:06 They always felt like they needed their, like, I guess, maybe that they needed their, like, hunting fishing, shooting crowd. No, but environmentalism is now woke-fied, right? Exactly, yeah. This is, like, a post-Algore thing of now the conservatives associate a lot of this language with, like, climate change algorisms, and it has this woke al-a-goorism. Yeah, it's very strange. Like, it's funny. Often when I'm out about, you know, like exploring in the back country, I run into guys who are out there, like, they're either hunting or like looking for places to hunt, I think. We'll be like, oh, yeah, well, there aren't as many of the turkeys or the deer or the whatever as they used to be.

Starting point is 01:16:49 But then it's very hard for people who now can't say climate change is real to find a way of like having permission to say what they want to say because they've seen. seen it with their own eyes. Yeah. But also, yeah, they don't want to say it. No, I mean, I did an episode about this after the R&C because I talked with this, like, Republican conservation group about how they're trying to bring back, like, put the conservative back in conservation or whatever. Jesus.

Starting point is 01:17:18 Yeah. Yeah, I think generally, generally the idea of them conserving anything is pretty much off the table at this point. But, yeah, people getting out in public land will, you will understand climate. change. You spend long enough going to the same spot and you're going to see what that means. So it has a lot of benefits. Go outside this weekend. Go camping. It's great desert season right now. If you're within range of a desert, go camping in the desert, look at the stars. You can find a dark sky area, if that's your thing. Was it REI who had the like, don't go shopping on Black Friday,

Starting point is 01:17:51 go outside? I don't know. You don't remember this? It's okay. This is just shit. I, you know, I am pro gazing at the flickering lights of civilization. Garrison, no one wants to see the fucking flickering lights of civilization. I do. I do. I don't. I want to see the stars. I camped in Chaco Canyon earlier this year. Bangor for a national park. That's my final tip for you. The great house at Chaco Canyon was the largest building constructed in the United States until 1880. Really? Yeah, yeah. It is vast. It is one of the least visited parks in a system

Starting point is 01:18:29 because you have to go like 17 miles down a dirt road. Sure. But incredible. These are the ancestral Puebloans, right? Like the people who are the ancestors of the Pueblo tribes today. But it's an amazing place to go check out. You should all go. None at once.

Starting point is 01:18:46 There's not enough space for all of you. I mean, I'm just rolling through Mike Lee's Twitter account now. Oh, yeah. You got any bangers? Not really. Not really. Not really. I mean, he's whining about Zoron and posting a lot about Charlie Kirk,

Starting point is 01:18:59 and that's mostly it. He doesn't even talk about this stuff because no one likes it. He got hammered by a bunch of very right-wing rancher types on Twitter last time he tried to do this. Yeah, that makes sense. I think he knows better. Because a lot of people, you can also graze cattle on public land, right? There's been a whole standoff about this long-time listeners will remember the Bundy situation. But, yeah, I guess he's also pissed those people off now.

Starting point is 01:19:29 I just went to search for the news coverage of this. The only thing we can find is a Washington Examiner. So it's just us and them. God, the video, the auto players on the Washington Examiner page is petrifying. The true bastions of journalists are us and the Washington Examiner. Horse shoes theory come to life. God. All right.

Starting point is 01:19:50 Go outside this week slash weekend. Fuck it, don't go to work. Go outside. Go inside tomorrow. Bye. All I know is what I've been told, and that's a half-truth is a whole lie. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves, County, Kentucky went unsolved, until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls

Starting point is 01:20:31 came forward with a story. I'm telling you, we know Quincy Kilder, we know. A story that law enforcement used to convict six people, and that got the citizen investigator on national TV. Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran. My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, producer,

Starting point is 01:20:57 and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her, or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y'all said. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her. From Lava for Good, this is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

Starting point is 01:21:26 America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad-free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health.

Starting point is 01:21:59 I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life, but even if it's a natural, why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything, I never used to forget things. They're concerned that, one, they have dementia, and the other one is, do I have ADHD? There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids, to sleep better,

Starting point is 01:22:42 to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day-to-day life. Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now. May 24th, 1990, a pipe bomb explodes in the front seat of environmental activist Judy Barry's car. I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it ripped through me with just a force more powerful and terrible than anything that I could describe. In season two of Rip Current, we ask, who tried to kill Judy Barry and why? She received death threats before the bombing.

Starting point is 01:23:23 She received more stress after the bombing. The man and woman who were heard had planned to lead a summer of militant protest against logging practices in northern California. They were climbing trees and they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods. The timber industry, I mean, it was the number one industry in the area, but more than it was the culture. It was the way of life. I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement. Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 01:23:57 Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way. Yo, yo, can we get Thanksgiving first? I'm hungry. Hey, y'all, it's Kadeen. And deval. The hosts of Ellis Ever After podcast. This holiday season, whether you're cooking for the family, out buying gifts for the kids. Or crowded in holiday traffic, tune out the noise and tune in to Ellis Ever After. Ever After.

Starting point is 01:24:21 On Ellis Ever After, we get rid with our crew about family. Have you feeling like you feeling? That's probably because you're a good parent. Friendship. Be careful what you put in your body. Move your body and love it the way you love them cars that house, them clothes, them shoes. Them brunches. Love yourself.

Starting point is 01:24:37 Them brunches. Love in marriage. You know what's become attractive to me? And it's because I've self-corrected and I guess I detoxified myself. Accountability. Oh, yeah. That is bad attractive. attractive to me and everything

Starting point is 01:24:52 else in between. I've told my most embarrassing moment on this podcast before, which was me taking a shit in a zip lock bag. So listen to Ellis Ever After on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, everyone. This is Dana Al-Kurd for It Could Happen here. I'm a

Starting point is 01:25:14 professor and analyst of Palestinian and air politics. And today, we're joined by Ahmed Moore, who is the 2025 Foundation for Middle East Peace Fellow. He's also an author, an activist, just very, very involved in the Palestinian space and on the question of Palestinian liberation. So I've invited Ahmed today to discuss with us what we can understand about pro-Palestine organizing in the past two years in comparison to prior to October 7, 2023, and think kind of analytically about where we can go from here.

Starting point is 01:25:49 We're recording this on November 5th, 2025. We had a very interesting night last night, where Zaharan Mamdani was named the mayor of New York City, and a lot of think pieces sense about how this means nothing and actually it means everything. And the pro-Palestine movement is winning. It's really not winning enough, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, we're in an interesting moment in American politics.

Starting point is 01:26:12 I think the Palestine question is obviously very, very relevant. So, yeah, Ahmed, welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Donna. Huge pleasure to be here. All right. So maybe we can start with kind of an introduction to yourself. You can tell us about your experience as an activist, as an organizer. Sure. Yes. As a researcher. Yeah. So I was born in Rhezan, Palestine and Gaza and Gaza and Raffa. And my family moved here when I was a kid and became naturalized. So American citizen when I was 10 years old. So that was in mid-90s. And, you know, went to college right after 9-11 and like lots of people was was galvanized around that experience. I think it was a period

Starting point is 01:26:53 I was so a journalist both in Beirut and in Cairo and often you'd meet American journalists roughly of my generation and all of them would indicate that you know I became engaged around the Middle East because of 9-11. I think 9-11 was for our generation a big learning opportunity for people. The global war on terror, the war in Iraq, galvanized. a lot of the left, and I'm thinking now of move on.org. And so this is really the environment that I grew up in. Today, I mostly work with the Guardian, with the nation, mostly write about Palestine, Israel, and American foreign policy. And as you mentioned, I'm a fellow at the Foundation for Middle East Peace, where I host a podcast, Occupied Thoughts, where we spend a lot

Starting point is 01:27:39 of time thinking through policy matters related to Palestine. I have ideas about how things have changed. But that's just a quick introduction to me and my work. No, thank you. We're approximately the same age. I won't tell you exactly how off. But yeah, I just am reflecting so much these days on how much the war on terror was a formative moment politically for our generation. And it's interaction with the Palestinian issue. I think that's starting to really be understood more widely. I think maybe it was more fringe or like a very select kind of understanding of the left would have that kind of analysis. For sure. I mean, just to put a fine point on it, I mean, that was the, I would say generational awareness that we've been lied to. We've lied to by Dick Cheney,

Starting point is 01:28:29 George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, all of that cohort, those people. You can see how that's rebounded today in Maine with Graham Platner, somebody who fought two or three tours. And then subsequently worked as a mercenary with Blackwater was radicalized, I would say, through that experience when he was watching these happy go lucky diplomats swimming in pools in a diplomatic compound when just outside a savage war was being waged or an insurgency. So I would say that, you know, Palestine is so deeply interwoven. Palestine is a long history of having been lied to for people here in the United States domestically. That came to a head around Iraq war. We relied into that war. And I think you saw, you saw the way that the Biden administration

Starting point is 01:29:19 particularly stuck with the playbook and alienated huge numbers of voters in 2024. Right. So, so Palestine is kind of indispensable to understanding how our elites in the United States have been captured by special interests, by corporatist interests. And we're beginning to see that, I think, rebound in meaningful ways. of course, congratulations to Zeran Mamdani, done a wonderful job. He ran an extraordinary campaign. I question, though, whether the campaign could have been successful without the awakening that occurred through two years of genocide. And what I mean by that specifically is so many of the taboos that had been enforced around identity, around good politics in America,

Starting point is 01:30:06 were dispensed with because those taboos were employed to suppress opposition to genocide. Yeah, no, I think you're right on the money on that. I mean, in some ways, the MAGA movement and Donald Trump also capitalized on the lies of the war on terror to, I mean, despite the incoherence of the MAGA movement, like, that was part of, you know, a rebuke of the neocons. But, of course, the left is especially after two years of unspeakable genocide, I think it has led to just an articulation of how much the American foreign policy in the Middle East is, you mentioned boomerang. It's an imperial boomerang that is impacting American politics.

Starting point is 01:30:48 It's also highlighted how much the elite and public opinion is bifurcated on this. Palestine has become an issue of democracy. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what I would say. No, I think that's correct. I agree with that. I mean, so Palestine went from being specifically Palestine. And from being a niche issue when I was in college, post-colonial studies majors knew about Palestine and could integrate Palestine into an understanding of life in America to being really part of

Starting point is 01:31:16 the American story today. And I think it's apt to describe it that way. The experience of watching a genocide unfold for two years has been radicalizing for many, but it's also been enlightening in that the first question was, why is this happening? The second question is, why can't we stop it. Okay, Israel's an independent country. We can't control them. Fine. Why are we still supporting this? And then ultimately, you end up going down that rabbit hole and arriving at, what is this Israel lobby? What is this special interest? And so I think the degree of complicity, the way in which the Biden administration blew so much smoke, the way in which both sides of the aisle engaged in genocide and cheered the genocide, really, has caused the

Starting point is 01:32:01 Palestine issue to become deeply interwoven with the experience of being American today. And I don't think that's an overstatement. And I think concretely it means that you need an answer to the question, well, if you can't stand up to genocide, if you can't stand up for defenseless children in Palestine and if you're going to lie to me about it, why would I expect you to stand up for anything meaningful as it relates to my standard of living, say I'm a working class person? And so it's become this litmus test, at least on the left. And I think you're saying a similar dynamic play out on the right, but for totally different reasons. Right, right.

Starting point is 01:32:33 And it's been extraordinary to behold, because I think so many of us who've been in this issue for so long, we've been marking our progress in incrementalist terms. And then suddenly things have broken wide open and the world has changed very, very quickly. Yeah. From my vantage point in American academia, I mean, they might have had personal feelings about Israel, Palestine. They may have had sympathies, but so few people would ever talk about the erasure of Palestine in the academy or the impact of censorship and attacks on academic freedom. But now, because the Palestinian issue is being used as this cudgel to attack higher education, like you're just a normal, Joe Schmo, like math professor, you're going to have to care.

Starting point is 01:33:19 And we're seeing this very much with the mobilization of the American Association of University Professors that is not a Middle East specific organization. whatsoever, but they are, they recognize the linkages between these issues. So in the ways that Palestine is interwoven with, but also has impacted so many of our current realities and the policies that we're facing by the Trump administration and the Biden administration before them, yeah, I think it's very clear to a lot of people. So that actually brings me to one of the main questions that I wanted to ask you is, aside from kind of this increased awareness and the taboos that have been broken around the discussion of Palestine and its integration in American foreign policy and American domestic policy, what are some other ways that you think since the genocide began that pro-Palestine organizing has changed? So the biggest thing I've seen is that the analytical frame has changed. We used to talk about foreign policy adventurers, wars for oil, those kinds of things.

Starting point is 01:34:32 Now, I think the analysis is very correctly focused on empire, the way in which resources domestically, the real working class effort to build a life in the United States is subsumed by wars of really imperial overreach. The whole idea of empire for me was an antiquated one. I didn't think it had a whole lot of relevance today, but I think it had a whole lot of relevance today, but I think I and many others who may have thought in that way missed the point. The realities that empire is intact, I think that awareness that our efforts domestically are deeply, deeply intertwined with what's happening, what we're doing elsewhere is important

Starting point is 01:35:13 and it's emergent. It's new. When I was in graduate school, you would hear people talk about how they're engaged with domestic policy or people talk about their interest in foreign policy. And I was mostly interested in foreign policy. But today, to try to draw that, differentiation is really meaningless. And again, you see that in the race in New York. Mamdani did run on affordability. He ran on a domestic policy program. But equally 38 percent, I think, of voters were heavily motivated by his foreign policy interests and his foreign policy perspectives, which, again, from a policy point of view, he can't really impact. But nonetheless, are supported by this idea that our taxes, what we do domestically, is having a huge impact

Starting point is 01:35:56 everywhere else in the world and that American empire is sprawling and a challenge for people domestically as well. From a pure activist point of view, you know, I used to have a real belief in in electoral politics. That was shaken deeply through the DNC, through the grassroots effort to be heard. Uncommitted, yeah. The uncommitted movement precisely. We'll see where things go. I mean, the truth is that, you know, the person who is just elected in Jersey is a typical, I believe, A-PAC Democrat, Mike and Cheryl. My perspective domestically is that we need to be aggressive. We need to be forceful in calling for a total reconstitution of Democratic Party. No half-measures. And I think Zeranamandani did a good job of illustrating what that could look

Starting point is 01:36:47 like. Yeah, I mean, there's always attention in this very money-captured system that we have that at certain level, it doesn't really matter liberal or Republican, they are captured. But I think what the New York City race has demonstrated is like, that can only go so far. You still need some public support, which is why, of course, they're going after gerrymandering and all of that. But yeah, it's an uphill battle. But I think if this democracy is to exist, we are in a better footing than we were, you know, on this discussion. I also am wondering what you think of this characterization, which is that I think, before this genocide, and I don't mean to create this binary, but it has been a very transformative

Starting point is 01:37:29 event. Before this genocide, I think a lot of Palestinian-American organizing in spaces discussed the issue of Palestine in a rights-based approach way, so about human rights, about ending apartheid, about extending rights. And I think the framing for that has also changed. It is really a critique of settler colonialism and the legitimacy of these names. States. First of all, what do you think of that characterization on my end? But also, what do you think of the tension then that poses for the Palestinian National Liberation Movement that still wants a state? Yeah, you're right. Again, the analytic frame has shifted. We've gone from a contested conversation around 1967, the June War, when Israel captured the West Bank from

Starting point is 01:38:16 Jordan, Gaza, from Egypt, Jerusalem as well, from Jordan, the Golan Heights, from Syria. and a small sliver of land from Lebanon to 1948. That's what we talk about now, and that's correct. And I think for many Palestinians or Palestinian-Americans, that has always been the starting point of the conversation. But now we have the political legitimacy to say, wait a second, this whole state was founded upon separate and unequal on Jewish supremacy, on a point of view that we reject as Americans, and we should reject everywhere in the world.

Starting point is 01:38:51 And so I think that that's the first meaningful change that I've seen when we talk about Palestine. And then, of course, settler colonialism is built into that analysis. Things get a little bit different when you zoom out. Let me just talk about domestic. I think that when you talk to people on the left, the universalist argument, everybody's created equal is very, very powerful and resonant, and it's the one that I believe in. But what's happening on the right as well is an America First argument. And the word protectorate comes up repeatedly. Why are we investing so much in a protectorate? Tucker Carlston, powerfully, I think, for his audience. And this is probably the most influential commentator in the United States today. But powerfully, you know, said that this country

Starting point is 01:39:35 has half the size, half the economy, the state of Connecticut. Why have we invested so much political capital, so much money, and something which is so immaterial, especially when it pays a big negative dividend in lots of different ways. So the nativist argument is meeting the universalist argument, but the core analysis around settler colonialism around the lack of legitimacy for a supremacist state gives rise to both of those arguments. It acts as a substrate, I would say. Palestinians want to see a Palestinian state and how you're going back to Palestine.

Starting point is 01:40:11 I don't know what that means today. I've heard perspectives that, you know, availing ourselves of statehood as a least legal construct will mean that you can now access legal frameworks to pursue justice in the courts wherever they may exist. I hope that's true. Let's see if it works out. I think there are people who are trying to take Israeli men, dual nationals who participated in the genocide to court in France, I think, by using some of the laws that exist between recognized states and non-states or maybe the UK. Let's see if Robert meets Road there. I support those tactics. But practically, when you're talking about Palestinian liberation, I don't believe that a state which has been colonized out of existence.

Starting point is 01:40:57 And you kind of have to look at a map to see what I mean here. But the West Bank is thoroughly colonized. Gaza is still occupied by the Israelis and will likely be slowly ethnically cleansed over time and not rebuilt. I fail to see how a state, a legal construct, is going to yield real benefits for the people on the ground now in Palestine. I agree 100%. And I think that the continuation of this framework, the statehood framework that a lot of our kind of political elites in the Palestinian landscape continue to use. And a lot of these, you know, countries in the global north use also to bypass the work that actually needs to be done after a genocide. It's certainly a distraction in my view. But it also speaks to the renewal that needs to happen within Palestinian politics. and within the PLO. But that's a bigger matter. My next question was going to be on the Palestinian-American diaspora.

Starting point is 01:42:05 In what ways do you think the Palestinian-American diaspora is alike with people in historic Palestine, with other diaspras, and in what ways do you think that they're unique? That's a hard question for me to answer. I think the diaspora and the way that I've interacted with people is diverse. What people have in common is a common reference point in ECPA. They have a common understanding around the legitimacy of Israel as an ethno state, which takes Jewish supremacy as its point of departure. But it's a very diverse diaspora. I mean, our first Palestinian-American in Congress is Justin Amash, who is on the right. That's right. I always forget about him. Yeah. I mean, he had relatives who were murdered in Gaza at a church in northern Ghazzo, which dates back to, I think, the 11th century. So we're a diverse diaspora. I think the Palestinian diaspora in the United States is integrated. It's educated. That's the passport for lots of Palestinians around the world. It's how you get out. It's how you build alive. We have a very high literacy rate in Palestine, exceeds 99.5%. But I think where the, diaspora hasn't, at least in the United States, done as effective a job. And this is kind of the

Starting point is 01:43:21 natural trajectory, I think, of diaspora communities generally. I don't know that we're as aggressive and organized as we could be. And I want to emphasize the word aggressive. The idea that we can go out and compete at all levels of government, that we can go out and assert our understanding of history backed by facts, we should be doing more of that, especially when when you look kind of across the board when it comes to people who are doing well in medicine or in business, you know, where there's been a real career risk for speaking out and for being assertive, we can do more now. And we should use the leverage gain through two years of genocide, the most expensive access to leverage, I can imagine, to push much harder politically.

Starting point is 01:44:08 Yeah, that's a very good point. I'm also wondering how well you think the Palestinian in organizing groups and spaces. How well integrated are they into other activist issue areas? Yeah, I think this is where, when I was in college, I didn't know the word intersectionality. That wasn't a concept that really was one that people thought about, you know, you would host an event and you would invite your friends, some of whom would be in the black students group,

Starting point is 01:44:37 some of whom would be in the queer students group, and just regular left groups. But today I'd say that activists have a much more, complete sense of how you almost have a social quilt and a compression on one part of it will impact everything else that's related to it. And we're all interrelated in that way. I'd say that the most potent discussions around Palestine are coming from left organizing groups, not exactly Palestinian organizing groups. I think if I could offer gentle criticism of Palestinian organizers, there's been too much, and you saw this with uncommitted,

Starting point is 01:45:11 too much effort to ingratiate yourselves to the existing power apparatus to ask for a seat at the table when it's somebody like Zeran Mamdani, again, who demanded a seat at the table through an unrelenting focus on the issues achieved access to a platform that nobody wanted to seed. And I don't think that following the rules exactly or being friendly about accessing platforms within the Democratic Party is going to yield a huge benefit to Palestinian Americans or people here. I'd say the most principled organizing is the organizing that's going to win. And today that comes from non-Palestinian groups.

Starting point is 01:45:53 And I'm okay with that. I don't really think it matters if the best argument is coming from somebody whose family comes from South Asia through Uganda or somebody whose family emerges from, you know, the Balalahto refugee camp. That doesn't really matter to me. I think just to focus on the principles is the most important thing. Yeah, right, right. I think we're definitely seeing more of an acceptance of that.

Starting point is 01:46:16 I agree with the limitations that you referenced. I also sometimes do reflect on how matched the discussion is in the United States with the discussion in historic Palestine and what activists can do to kind of bridge some gaps that might emerge. But of course, understanding that we do exist in a different political reality and we obviously will develop different views as a result of that. I agree. And look, I mean, nobody needs to be apologetic about inhabiting a different reality. You know, we don't need to defer to a leadership which is divided, divided in Palestine, and PLO that won't talk to itself. And there are structural reasons for that, right?

Starting point is 01:46:53 I mean, the Israelis and the Americans have done a very effective job in splintering Palestinian leadership. I think we need to think extremely locally. There are issues that matter to my community in West Philadelphia, bigger, you know, bigger issues across Pennsylvania that impact. my life, that impact my life as a father of three little girls. So I think being a member of a community and focusing, again, relentlessly on the principles and the facts that we've known all along is critical to pushing the conversation on Palestine forward. And practically today, for me, that means an arms embargo. It means sanctions. It means a cultural boycott. And it means those things unapologetically. Again, those are principled positions that I can take as an American

Starting point is 01:47:37 citizen, a citizen of a country which has underwritten genocide has underwritten apartheid for decades. Yep, I think I agree with that analysis. As the author, which we didn't mention at the beginning, as the author, one of the co-authors of After Zionism with Anthony Lillenstein, I'm going to pose a difficult question for you. Now, I'm just joking. Not that you have to answer it fully, but where do you think we go from here? Where do you think the pro-Palestine movement goes from here. And if you can reflect in your answer on where we've stalled as well. Yeah. So I used to believe in one state for everybody with equal rights. Today, I think the writing is on the wall for the Palestinians in Palestine. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is

Starting point is 01:48:20 proceeding. The fact that the Gaza has been utterly destroyed, utterly destroyed. There are no universities, no schools, no really functioning hospitals. The basic infrastructure required for the maintenance of life doesn't exist there anymore. That's part of why it's a genocide. We've got to take that reality into account. The Palestinians in the Gaza, the Palestinians and Palestine generally have the right to pursue life. They have a right to an education. They have a right to self-actualization. And many of them, when they can, they're going to leave. That's the ethnic cleansing program. That's the idea behind the mass destruction of Palestine. The Israelis are succeeded in that regard, I would say. We need to be mindful of that. We need to be aware of

Starting point is 01:49:03 that. So what I think will happen ultimately is that you'll end up with some rump community of Palestinians in Palestine who are eventually, when in arms embargoes enacted, and I hope it's within our lifetimes, when the sanctions are enacted, when Israel is forced to become a normal country with equal rights for all, will continue to exist in that space. I don't know, you know, I can't predict, nobody can really predict what's certain to what's going to happen, but the kinds of pressure required to cause Israel to become a de-radicalized normal society will take time to produce. And in the interim, the writing is on the wall for the Palestinians in Palestine. And I think that's the saddest for me part of all of this. The continuity of Palestinian life in

Starting point is 01:49:50 Palestine is not guaranteed. You know, the overwhelming force of the state exists in one place. And that's, that's, in Israel. Yeah, that's why I, when a lot of people talk positively about the developments of the past two years, of course, you want to feel hope. You want to highlight how the discussion has changed here in America, how politics is moving forward, you want to have some pathway. But we never were able to prevent that genocide. Nothing we did in any avenue. All of us have, you know, different positionalities engaged with different actors, like, none of it actually stopped that. And that is a very hard pill to swallow. I hope, I've always

Starting point is 01:50:35 been hoping that at least that will allow us to get to the place of self-reflection about what radical solutions look like in the aftermath of this kind of disaster. And yeah, I hope that that's where we go from here on my end. Yeah, thank you so much, Ahmed. This has been a really enriching discussion. And I think that the listeners will benefit from this overarching view of pro-Palestine activism and its intersections with everything we're seeing unfold. So thank you so much again. Thank you, Donna.

Starting point is 01:51:09 It's been a huge pleasure. All I know is what I've been. been told, and that's a half-truth is a whole lie. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved, until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story. I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her. We know. A story that law enforcement used to convict six people, and that got the citizen investigator on

Starting point is 01:51:58 national TV. Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran. My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y'all said. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her. From Lava for Good, this is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame. America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

Starting point is 01:52:49 Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. and to binge the entire season at free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way. Yo, yo, can we get a Thanksgiving first? I'm hungry.

Starting point is 01:53:18 Hey, y'all, it's Kadeen. And deval. The hosts of Ellis Ever After podcast. This holiday season, whether you're cooking for the family, out buying gifts for, the kids. Or crowded in holiday traffic, tune out the noise and tune in to Ellis Ever After.

Starting point is 01:53:34 On Ellis Ever After, we get real with our crew about family. Have you feeling like you feeling? That's probably because you're a good parent. Friendship. Be careful what you put in your body. Move your body and love it the way you love them cars that house and clothes, them clothes, them shoes. Them brunches.

Starting point is 01:53:51 Love and marriage. You know what's become attractive to me? And it's because I've self-corrected and I guess I detox. to find myself, accountability. It has become so attractive to me and everything else in between. I've told my most embarrassing moment on this podcast before, which was me taking a shit in a zip lock bag. So listen to Ellis Ever After on the iHeart Radio app,

Starting point is 01:54:14 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of heavyweight, I help a centenarian mend a broken heart. a 101-year-old woman, fall in love again. And I help a man atone for an armed robbery he committed at 14 years old. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. And he got down, and I remember feeling kind of a surge of like, okay, this is power. Plus, my old friend Gregor and his brother tried to solve my problems through hypnotism.

Starting point is 01:54:54 We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're like super-charging. All the time. Being more able to look to people in the eye. Not always hide behind a microphone. Listen to Heavyweight on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Michael Lewis here. My book, The Big Short, tells the story of the buildup and burst

Starting point is 01:55:18 of the U.S. housing market back in 2008. It follows a few unlikely, but lucky people who saw the real estate market for the black hole it would become and eventually made billions of dollars from that perception. It was like feeding the monster, said Isman. We fed the monster until it blew up. The monster was exploding. Yet on the streets of Manhattan,

Starting point is 01:55:41 there was no sign anything important had just happened. Now, 15 years after the Big Short's original release, and a decade after it became an Academy Award-winning movie, I've recorded an audiobook edition for the very first time. The big short story, what it means when people start betting against the market, and who really pays for an unchecked financial system, it is as relevant today as it's ever been, offering invaluable insight into the current economy and also today's politics. Get the big short now at Pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Two weeks ago, four days before Halloween, former Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson,

Starting point is 01:56:28 hosted the 27-year-old white supremacist influencer Nick Fuentes on Tucker's popular internet show. Two weeks later, this interview has over 6 million views on YouTube, over half a million on Rumble, and 18 million alleged views on XVI, the Everything app, with over 100,000 likes and 20,000 retweets, plus the unknown number of views from podcasting platforms like Apple or Spotify, on which Tucker Carlson's show also airs.

Starting point is 01:57:03 This is It Could Happen Here, I'm Garrison Davis. Throughout the almost entirely friendly two-hour interview, Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson discussed Nick's libertarian origin story, his conversion to Trump's bombastic style of populism, getting a show on the right-side broadcast network as a teenager, after a viral college debate, how the Daily Wire initially befriended, then tried to quash his early political career,

Starting point is 01:57:31 and how that pushed Nick to adopt a far-right adversarial stance against mainstream conservatism and the gatekeepers of the conservative establishment, which Nick identified as the quote-unquote Zionist Jews, like Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin, and Dennis Prager. Here's Nick and Tucker. It was the guys that were really controlling the media apparatus that seemed to me to be the biggest impediment.

Starting point is 01:58:00 Fox. Fox is not a Jewish business, though. Well, Rupert Murdoch is an ally of Netanyahu, so he's aligned. Yeah. And he owns the whole News Corp Empire. And yeah, he's certainly a part of it also. I mean, Dave Rubin, though, does he matter? No, no, not really. Right.

Starting point is 01:58:19 I mean, Dave Rubin, it's like, I don't know, do people watch Dave Rubin? They did back then, I mean, because you got to consider, they were kind of like the ascendant new media, you know? They represented the next big thing. I mean, and Ben Shapiro seems irrelevant to me now. Now, but back then, for the young, he was huge. So maybe you want. Oh, certainly. Tucker tried to advise Fuentes to focus more of his ire on Israel's influence on American politics as a foreign policy issue and not, quote-unquote, blood guilt based on ethnicity. While Fuentes defended the necessity of his rhetoric against what he called the quote-unquote unique issue of, quote-unquote, organized jury that promotes a form of identity politics,

Starting point is 01:59:12 linking Israel to, quote, Jewishness as an ethnicity, identity, and religion, unquote, which makes most culturally Jewish people incompatible with America-first patriotism. This is basic, dual-loyalty anti-Semitism, which Nick continued to outline by framing Jewish people as a historically stateless people that resist assimilation and put their own interests above those of whichever non-Jewish majority country they currently reside, attention, which the existence of Israel now heightens. No other country has a strong identity like that, this religious blood and soil conviction, this history of being in the diaspora, stateless, wandering, persecuted, and in particular,

Starting point is 02:00:00 the historic animosity between the Jewish people and the Europeans. They hate the Romans because the Romans destroyed the temple. That's why Eric Weinstein goes to the Arch of Titus, and gives it the finger and takes a picture. We don't think like that as Americans and white people. We don't think about the Roman Empire and 2,000 years ago. They do. Right.

Starting point is 02:00:22 Americans and Christians would never think about Czech's notes the Roman Empire or the events of 2,000 years ago. Sure, Nick. Obviously, to many people listening to this show, Fuentes has been a known anti-Semitic streamer, for nearly 10 years.

Starting point is 02:00:43 And Tucker himself knows this. The main pushback Tucker gave Nick was on why Nick attacked other figures on the far right, who were possible allies of the America First Movement and America First Foreign Policy, like Marjorie Taylor Green,

Starting point is 02:01:00 J.D. Vance, Joe Kent, and Tucker himself. Why attack them? Well, in short, they attacked me first. Yeah, but like, who cares? Well, let's take Joe Kemp. I mean, you attack me constantly. Tucker also advocated framing that does not allow what he believes to be popular America-first

Starting point is 02:01:20 ideas like opposition to foreign influence and dual citizenship to get subverted by leaning into accusations of hate and racial prejudice, which during the interview, Fuentes nominally agreed with. Some of them, I'm sorry to be a conspiracy nut. I really try not to be a conspiracy because it's embarrassing. you know but after january 6th and just finding out the number of FBI personnel in the crowd it's like and i've just seen this david duke is a great example some of these are the charlottesville rally yeah had a bunch of feds there being like we're white supremacists we hate the blacks you know

Starting point is 02:01:59 you're seeing the edward whatever you know it's like that's not real like there is some of that going on don't you think i think that um i think that there's a lot of sincere people for sure I completely agree, you know, and they're just nomskulls. For some reason, Nick neglected to mention that he, in fact, was at Charlottesville, and the backlash to the Unite the Right rally, forced him to drop out of college and propelled his streaming career. Throughout this whole interview, it mostly felt like Tucker was trying to act as a mentor figure to Fuentes, advising him to let go of past beefs and providing a sort of clean slate to allow, Nick, to present his political views in a more streamlined manner as simply anti-Israel as an extension

Starting point is 02:02:47 of America first. During the interview, Tucker himself explained his motives for inviting Fuentes on the show. Do you hope that people who want to learn what's happening and who you are will watch the whole thing. It's probably naive hope that it won't be reduced to whatever you're saying something naughty and me laughing and see they're both Nazis. I mean, you know that's going to happen, of course, but I'm willing to take that risk because I just think it's important to know you're clearly ascendant, you're enormously talented, you're more talent than I am for sure as a talker. So, and they've, you know, there've been a lot of attempts to silence you and hasn't worked. So my calculation always to be as blunt as I can be is like, sort of want to have

Starting point is 02:03:29 Fuentes on. Everyone's going like, you, but you're a Nazi just like Fuentes. Okay. But then I'm like, I don't think Fuentes is going away. Ben Shapiro tried to like strangle him in the crib in college and now he's bigger than ever. So it probably would just be worth hearing what Nick Fuentes thinks. I just want to be transparent about my motives here.

Starting point is 02:03:50 And I think Tucker is right in calling Fuentes ascendant. We'll talk more about that at the end of this episode. For the last 30 minutes of this interview, the two discussed pornography, alcohol, and drugs as ruining America's young men through reality distortion. And I had a whole segment on Nick Fuentes explaining to a confused Tucker Carlson,

Starting point is 02:04:16 the concept of internet pornography, which unfortunately I had to cut for time. But if there's enough demand for this on Blue Sky or Reddit, maybe I can make a bonus episode next week. Rather than focusing on the substance of this interview and Tucker's motivation, a lot of mainstream reporting has just highlighted a few controversial sound bites, like an offhand semi-troll comment about how Fuentes admires Stalin. But this interview did send shockwaves through the American conservative ecosystem, of which Fuentes was always held at a very long arm's length away. In the immediate wake of the interview, references to Tucker were curiously

Starting point is 02:05:00 removed from the Heritage Foundation's donor page in partnership with the Tucker Carlson Network. On October 30th, Heritage President Kevin Roberts released a video, Defending Tucker, captioned, there has been speculation that Heritage is distancing itself from Tucker Carlson over the past 24 hours. I want to put that to rest right now. Conservatives should feel no obligation to reflexively support any foreign government. No matter how loud the pressure becomes from the globalist class, or from their mouthpieces in Washington. The Heritage Foundation didn't become the intellectual backbone of the conservative movement

Starting point is 02:05:38 by canceling our own people or policing the consciences of Christians. And we won't start doing that now. We will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serves someone else's agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson, who remains, and as I have said before, always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him or sowing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail. Most importantly, the American people expect us to be focusing on our political adversaries on the left, not attacking our friends on the right.

Starting point is 02:06:16 I disagree with, and even abhor things that Nick Fuentes says. But canceling him is not the answer either. When we disagree with the person's thoughts and opinions, we challenge those ideas and debate. And we have seen success in this approach as we continue to dismantle the vile ideas of the left. Roberts primarily framed this as an issue of cancellation and included some pretty sketchy lines in that video. Roberts also said that heritage doesn't, quote, take direction from members or donors, unquote. This video was polarizing to say the least, Nick Fuentes fans who are called Groypers, and America first nationalists

Starting point is 02:07:00 rejoiced and claimed victory. While many GOP establishment figures, Jewish Republicans, and many heritage employees, were left bamboozled. The New York Post published internal heritage group chats with staff members writing that this was, quote, the most embarrassed I've ever been to be a heritage employee.

Starting point is 02:07:20 It's not close. And quote, I'm disgusted by this and don't understand how this premeditated and orchestrated response could come out of one of the biggest think tanks in the world, unquote. More texts read, quote, saying we can't cancel someone is safe space awokeism, and, quote, if we are labeled on the same side as Nick Fuentes, then we deserve to lose. Talking with some of the interns, I think that there is a growing number of them who actually agree with Fuentes' views.

Starting point is 02:07:55 Now, beyond employee dissent, sources close to Heritage told the New York Post that the think tank has been, quote-unquote, hemorrhaging evangelical Christian and Jewish donors. David Bernstein, the author of a woke anti-Semitism, and a former member of the Task Force at Heritage called Project Esther, a national strategy to combat anti-Semitism, told the New York Post on November 3rd that he had resigned from his position over Kevin Roberts' remarks. citing the language of a venomous coalition aligned against Tucker. To quote, Jewish Insider, quote, Rabbi Yaakov Mencken, executive vice president of the Coalition for Jewish Values, told Jewish Insider that Robert's message, quote, was the most tone deaf in both its content and timing that I've ever heard from major Washington organization

Starting point is 02:08:46 on any political side, unquote. Minkin resigned from Heritage's Project Esther, the group's anti-Semitism initiative, last week in response to Roberts' video message defending Carlson. Along with Menkin and Coalition for Jewish Voices, several other groups have also publicly disaffiliated from Heritage's Anti-Semitism Task Force, including the National Jewish Advocacy Center,

Starting point is 02:09:09 the Zionist Organization of America, and the young Jewish conservatives, unquote. On Halloween, Heritage President Kevin Roberts, made a post summarizing a small sampling of Fuentes' most racist, anti-Semitic and pro-Hitler views, and said, quote, our task is to confront and challenge those poisonous ideas at every turn to prevent them from taking America to a very dark place.

Starting point is 02:09:35 Join us, not to cancel, but to guide, challenge, and strengthen the conversation, and be confident, as I am, that our best ideas at the heart of Western civilization will prevail. For those especially young men who are enticed by Fuentes and his acolytes online, there is a better way. Roberts has repeatedly said that attempting to cancel Fuentes would only grow his audience.

Starting point is 02:10:03 As opposed to whatever Roberts is doing by playing footsies with Tucker and Fuentes, resulting in multiple news stories a day name-dropping Fuentes and massively raising his public profile. It would not invite him to a heritage event or to my show, but the point is we have to find other avenues to engage the ridiculous ideas that he's saying,

Starting point is 02:10:23 rather than as many people have called for online that you can just shun him, that you can just ignore him and that the problem goes away. My motivation for posting that video yesterday, especially looking ahead towards 2026 and 2028, is that we have to engage those issues if we want to build a movement.

Starting point is 02:10:41 I understand that particularly for our Jewish friends who ought to be upset about Twintess's comments about anti-Semitism, that he's just anathema. I agree with that as well, But if we're going to actually correct the scourge of anti-Semitism, we've got to go convince those, unfortunately, millions of young men who find that appealing. I do believe that they're convinceable. I believe that people like you, hopefully people like us at Heritage, and even people like Tucker, might be able to play a role in that. Following backlash to Kevin Roberts' initial statement, Roberts' chief of staff, Ryan Newhouse, resigned from Heritage after being reassigned as a senior advisor on housing policy, opposition sources told New York Post.

Starting point is 02:11:21 was the quote-unquote Siberia of Heritage. Before resigning, Newhouse reposted messages defending Roberts' video, including a post advocating that, quote-unquote, virtue-signaling employees at the Heritage Foundation should resign if they're so outraged by Robert's statement. During Halloween weekend, lawyer Mark Goldfetter

Starting point is 02:11:45 resigned from the Heritage-affiliated National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism, writing on X the Everything app, I cannot serve under someone who thinks Nazis are worth debating. On November 1st, Princeton University professor Robert P. George, member of the Heritage Board of Trustees, who allegedly has been attempting to oust Roberts as the head of the foundation in the wake of this controversy,

Starting point is 02:12:07 posted on X the Everything app, quote, American conservatism today faces a challenge. That challenge comes from those who reject our commitment to inherent and equal human dignity. They are seeking acceptance in the conservative movement and its institutions, and they do so with the ultimate objective of transforming them by undermining that commitment. I cannot accept the idea that we have no enemies to the right. The white supremacists, anti-Semites, the eugenicists, bigots, must not be welcome into our movement or treated as normal or

Starting point is 02:12:42 acceptable, unquote. You sure about that, Robert P. George? This conservative commitment to enhance and equal human dignity? You sure about that? You sure about that? Surely the American conservatives aren't restricting people's health care and pushing them off food stamps and kidnapping and uprooting families

Starting point is 02:13:04 and sending them to far-off countries. Seems like all those things would breach this commitment to inherent and equal human dignity. I never thought the leopards would eat my face, Saab's Heritage Board of Trustees member who voted for the leopards-eating people's faces party. We'll be right back after these ads.

Starting point is 02:13:27 The conservative infighting intensified when on November 3rd, Monday morning, Ben Shapiro released a 40-minute video captioned, No to the Groypers, no to Cowper's, No to cowards like a Tucker Carlson who normalized their trash. No to those who championed them. No to demoralization. Note to bigotry and anti-ameritocratic horse shit.

Starting point is 02:13:58 No to anti-Americanism. No. That fragmentation is being caused purposefully by a splinter faction of people led by a young man named Nick Fuentes. They call themselves the Groypers. They are white supremacists. They hate women, Jews, Hindus, many types of Christians, brown people of a wide variety of backgrounds,

Starting point is 02:14:15 blacks, America's foreign policy, and America's Constitution. They admire Hitler and Stalin, and that splinter faction is now being facilitated and normalized within the mainstream Republican Party. The main agent in that normalization is Tucker Carlson, who is an intellectual coward, a dishonest interlocutor, and a terrible friend. And Tucker Carlson last week was aided, abetted, celebrated for normalizing Nazism within the Republican Party by the mainstay organization of the traditional right, the Heritage Foundation. Shapiro then had to preface his comments by saying, quote, this is not about free speech or cancellation, and quote, criticisms of bad speech is in fact just a form of free speech, unquote, and went on this lengthy diatribe to explain how what he's doing isn't cancellation,

Starting point is 02:15:03 which Ben defined as banning people from social media and publishing platforms, what would be more accurately described as the platforming as opposed to like social cancellation, which is not something that Ben is calling for. Ben's not calling for de-platforming. It is not cancellation to draw moral lines between viewpoints. In fact, we used to call that one of the key aspects of conservatism. It is not cancellation to refuse to signal boost Hitler's supporters like Nick Flentes. It is not cancellation to criticize Tucker Carlson

Starting point is 02:15:34 for rhetorically fluffing Nick Flentes and other anti-American crackpots. It's not cancellation if you urge others to stop promoting those who rhetorically fluff, Nazi apologists. Those are all elements of free speech. And anyone who says differently is lying to you and lying for the most cynical reasons to misdirect from their own defense of those Nazi apologists and their promoters. The issue here isn't that Tucker Carlson had Nick Flentes on his show last week.

Starting point is 02:15:59 He has every right to do that, of course. The issue here is that Tucker Carlson decided to normalize and fluff Nick Flintes and that the Heritage Foundation then decided to robustly defend that performance. Those who criticize both Tucker and Heritage aren't canceling they are quite properly drawing a moral line. Now, from Tucker Carlson's interview, you might have gathered that Flentes has some borderline views on race, a peculiar obsession with what he calls organized jury,

Starting point is 02:16:25 and a rather sad relationship with the female sex. But probably you came way thinking that, for the most part, Flentes lives on the radical edge of normality. You think that if you watch the interview, because Tucker Carlson decided that it was important not only to host Flentes, but to smooth over his views, water them down, and make them far more palatable to a normal audience.

Starting point is 02:16:43 Ben proceeded to do a 10-minute Nick Fuentes clip show, playing a slick collection of some of the most offensive things Nick has said to camera, and then blamed the left for creating the conditions that let this hatred emerge, framing Fuentes as the dialectical inverse of the hyper-woke-in-pole left. And there's no doubt that Nick Fuentes has a lot of play these days. That's because the left, by moving into a politics of anti-white, anti-Christian, anti-male identitarianism, created its bizarro mirror image, a white pseudo-Christian in-cell identitarian movement dedicated to destroying the institutions of this country and replacing

Starting point is 02:17:23 Americanism with something else. Nick Fentz's philosophy is not fully formed. It's an incoherent stew of malignity. The left did not create Nick Fuentes. He is the direct product of the right-wing content ecosystem that Shapiro himself trailblazed. It's Ben Shapiro, but taken even further with post-ironic Gen Z brain rot. Even if Fuentes himself has been banned from many of the big tent conservative events, his ideas still festered, spread under the radar, and influenced the further radicalization of other right-wing commentators so that they could better compete with Fuentes. Tucker himself was a part of this.

Starting point is 02:18:07 The 2019, quote-unquote, Groyper War, in which Nick Fuentes deployed his fans to disrupt Turning Point USA Q&A events, with leading questions pressured Charlie Kirk to adopt viewpoints further and further to the right, specifically on race and immigration. And now the White Great Replacement is basically a mainstream conservative viewpoint. And Fuentes played a huge part in that. This is, in fact, your problem, Ben. For the rest of this 40-minute video, Shapiro directed his attention to Tucker Carlson. criticizing his defense of Russia and multipolar views,

Starting point is 02:18:46 Tucker's pro-dictator comments, populist criticism of Trump, and sort of dodgy anti-Israel statements. Shapiro highlighted comments Tucker made during the Fuentes interview, where he lampooned high-profile Republicans and neocons who have been, quote, unquote, seized by the pro-Israel, quote-unquote, brain virus,

Starting point is 02:19:08 with Tucker claiming that he dislikes Christian Zionists, quote, more than anybody, unquote, because it's Christian heresy. Shapiro described the function of Tucker's current online platform as a safe space to bring on conspiracy theorists, fringe figures, alternative historians, and those just outside the Overton window to then, quote unquote, gloss them, as Shapiro says. It's not about building a radicalization pipeline out of the mainstream, but bringing the actual radical ideas to the mainstream. Tucker Carlson acts as an ideological launderer for other people's evils.

Starting point is 02:19:49 Tucker Carlson says many inflammatory things, always buying back just enough of it to appear as though he's not saying what he's clearly saying. He's a master of gaslighting. Tucker Carlson, for example, would never say out loud what Nick Puentes does. He wouldn't say the things many of his guests say. And so instead, he acts as an ideological laundering. He takes other people's hideous ideas. He softens them.

Starting point is 02:20:11 them with love and care, and then he provides them with a massive signal boost. He isn't merely talking to people in good faith, of course. He's promoting certain people and ideas and attacking others. This is how Tucker Carlson's ideological laundering works. You bring your dirty, ugly ideologies to Tucker Carlson's rhetorical carwash. He mixes it with some of the vestigial respect Americans have for him from his Fox News days, and voila, hideous ideas suddenly become mainstream. And then, of course, Tucker denies he said anything controversial at all.

Starting point is 02:20:37 He was just asking questions. He was just interviewing people. You don't want him to cancel people, do you? Ben continued to complain about Tucker platforming Candice Owens and her increasingly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Except, remember, it was your company that gave Candace a huge platform after she left Turning Point and Prager You. Is she also a consequence of the woke left like Fuentes is? Shapiro, the call is coming from inside your own company to further demonstrate how much of this is. stuff is downstream from Shapiro. It's actually because of Candice that Fuentes even went on Tucker's show

Starting point is 02:21:18 at all. Candice had Fuentes on her show a few months prior. And when she went on Tucker's show, she told him how great Fuentes is and argued in his defense. As for Heritage, Ben acknowledged his longstanding positive relationship with the Heritage Foundation, working with him since he was just 17 years old, and recently had Kevin Roberts on his show to promote Roberts' latest book. Which is why what Kevin Roberts did last week is tragic and awful. He put out a statement that Heritage Foundation didn't just stand by Tucker Carlson. Kevin instead said openly and repeatedly that Tucker Carlson can do nothing ever that will sever his relationship with the conservative movement. He said that after and in defense of Tucker's glossing of Hitler defender

Starting point is 02:22:06 Nick Flentes. And he added that only members of the globalist class, direct quote, a venomous coalition, direct quote, subject to the dictates of someone else's agenda, direct quote, oppose Heritage's ongoing relationship with Tucker Carlson, which means that according to Kevin Roberts, apparently, anyone opposing the ongoing mainstreaming of Tucker Carlson is acting on behalf of a foreign power. Kevin's statement is a betrayal of the Heritage Foundation's history and principles, which is presumably by both Tucker Carlson and Nick Fentz, loved it. Shapiro still expressed the need for an organization like heritage that focuses on ideas over personal loyalty to grifters and expressed hope that heritage could recover from this

Starting point is 02:22:48 controversy and speak out against the quote-unquote moral rot that threatens our future. But if not, conservatives may need to look for leadership elsewhere. And the cause of this moral rot, political horseshoe theory that is destroying both parties, with the GOP being eaten by radicals. Like the Democratic Party, the Republican Party is being eaten by its radicals. Many in the political class are too cowardly to stand up. Apparently, they're willing to play footsie with Groyper's and hug Tucker Carlson out of fear of somehow losing support. They've been bamboozled by the lies of the X algorithm and the TikTok metrics. The left followed its radicals to electoral hell, apparently many on the right wish to do the same.

Starting point is 02:23:31 Forget the morality then for just a moment. Let's be pragmatic. Here is the thing. Americans hate Nick Flentes' philosophy. They think it's trash. Republicans, by the polling, think it's trash. Independence think it's trash. Democrats think it's trash. And here's the other thing. Americans hate Tucker Carlson's laundered anti-Americanism. Republicans think it's trash. Independence think it's trash. Democrats think it's trash. Americans are not pro-segregation, pro-rape, anti-woman, pro-child marriage, anti-black, anti-Jew, anti-Indian, anti-Latino, anti-constitution, pro-Hitler, not jobs like Nick Fuentes. You might want to tell that to, I don't know, Stephen Miller, Ben, and like maybe half your employees. Here's Matt Walsh's own description

Starting point is 02:24:16 for his most recent Daily Wire podcast episode, quote, Somali tribal conflict. has made its way into multiple American states. A man is arrested for shouting, F the Jews at Dave Portnoy. Meanwhile, Antifa riots with no consequence. White liberal radio host kisses Jasmine Crockett's feet, unquote. Ben, the call is coming from inside the Daily Wire House. If Republicans decide to cower before the likes of neo-Nazis

Starting point is 02:24:49 and their propagandizers, they deserve to lose. And they will lose. New Nazis and their propagandizers are not Republicans. They are not America First. They are not MAGA. They sure as hell aren't conservative. These people aren't to my rights. They are not attached in any way to the fundamental principles of conservatism.

Starting point is 02:25:07 I'm sorry, Ben, but they are. They are in the MAGA White House. They are on TV, on Fox News. They're getting more views than you are on TikTok and fucking rumble. Many have either worked for you or still work for you. and you've been completely fine with all of that, as long as they've been sufficiently pro-Israel. Here's a Ben Shapiro tweet from September 17, 2015.

Starting point is 02:25:36 Ann Coulter tweets, read Jews, awful, nonsensical. Ann Coulter is also super pro-Israel and has always been, so I won't lose sleep. I never thought the leopards would eat my face, Saab's conservative podcaster who voted for the leopards-eating people's faces party. The same day, Shapiro

Starting point is 02:25:58 released this 40-minute video. Matt Walsh posted, quote, Pat Buchanan didn't just have good ideas. He was right about almost everything. He's the most vindicated political figure of our lifetime. Unquote.

Starting point is 02:26:14 If you want a fun little 10-minute side quest, Google Pat Buchanan Nazi Pat Buchanan. in anti-Semitism. Every few months, these right-wing ghouls get a harsh reminder of the world that they have conjured into being. Remember the H-1B visa debacle earlier this year, with Elon Musk and Ramoswami, upset that all of their racist fans don't want to bring in immigrant workers after Elon funded a campaign

Starting point is 02:26:41 about how immigrants are stealing Americans' jobs? As writer John Gans put it, quote, the GOP-Civil War is between the vanilla fascists and the National Socialists, unquote. At the Republican Jewish Coalition, 40th anniversary summit, Congressman Randy Fine proudly announced that he canceled an upcoming event with Heritage. I was supposed to do an event with Heritage next week. Think on Wednesday, they don't know what I'm about to tell you. Right now, we're canceling it.

Starting point is 02:27:15 They will have no future in my office, and I will be calling on all of my colleagues. on the Republican side to do the same. If those who support Tucker Carlson want to see a venomous coalition, all they need to do is go look in the mirror. During that same speech, he boasted about this. I've called for Zoran Mandami to be deported. The only thing I want to see him running for

Starting point is 02:27:49 is his gate at JFK on the deportation flight to Uganda. First they came for the communists, Randy. I never thought the leopards would eat my face sobs a Florida congressman with Twitter pronouns listed as Hebrew slash hammer, who's a member of the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party. During the opening to the Republican Jewish Coalition event, Ted Cruz addressed this moment of fracture within the establishment right. as a quote-unquote time of choosing and said that in the past six months, he's, quote, seen more

Starting point is 02:28:26 anti-Semitism on the right than I had in my entire life. This is a poison and I believe we are facing an existential crisis in our party and our country, unquote. Cruz later shared a free press article on his comments. The CEO of the Republican Jewish Coalition Matt Brooks told Jewish insider that he is, quote, appalled, offended and disgusted that Kevin Roberts and Heritage would stand with Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes, and that there would be a, quote, reassessment of our relationship with heritage in light of this, unquote. On November 3rd, Missouri Senator and J6 supporter Josh Hawley denounced Fuentes' rhetoric as anti-Semitic telling Jewish insider, quote, that's not who we are as Republicans, as conservatives. The question for us as conservatives is, are those

Starting point is 02:29:16 view is going to define who we are, I think we need to say no, as a conservative, but also as a Christian. There is no place for anti-Semitic hatred, tropes, any of that stuff. Do we really want to be a part of what we've seen happen on college campuses? Unquote. Senator James Langford of Oklahoma, the co-chair of the Senate Antisemitism Task Force, told Jewish insider that he was, Quote, a little surprise that Heritage jumped out in support of Carlson and Nick Fuentes to say, hey, we want them in our camp. After the statements that were made, Heritage could have just sat back and not said anything, but instead they chose to jump out on their side.

Starting point is 02:30:00 I don't get that, unquote. Like Ben Shapiro and Josh Hawley, James Langford related this to a perceived bipartisan crisis. Quote, the left has seen an implosion of their party based on anti-Semitism rising in their party. I don't want to see the same thing happen on the right. What I've tried to be very clear on is that the new right is now quoting an old wrong, unquote. Senator Rick Scott of Florida basically said the same thing. Quote, the Democrat Party, we already have a party that's for anti-Semitism and is against Israel. The Republican Party is going to stand for Israel, and we're going to stand against anti-Semitism.

Starting point is 02:30:40 I don't think there's any question, unquote, as if the Democrat Party is against Israel. And it's astonishing to watch all of these senators cope with the results of years of watering down accusations of anti-Semitism to simply reflect any criticism of Israel as they're now facing of massive resurgence of genuine anti-Semitism from known anti-Semitic actors on the right. Turns out it's way easier to police campus anti-genocide protests than deal with the anti-Semitism spread on the massive platforms

Starting point is 02:31:16 of Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson. But not all senators are worried. Lindsay Graham, while speaking at the Republican Jewish coalition, was less worried about Tucker, Fuentes, and the future of the party. So I just want to say, I feel good about the Republican Party. I feel good about where we're going as a nation.

Starting point is 02:31:37 We're killing all the right people and we're cutting your taxes. Trump is my favorite president. We've run out of bombs. We didn't run out of bombs in World War II. So to those who worry about these stupid interviews and far-off places, don't worry. The Republican Party has figured it out when it comes to Israel. were killing all the right people here at the leopards eating people's faces party

Starting point is 02:32:12 surely the leopards will never eat my or my friend's faces on the night of November 3rd Heritage President Kevin Roberts gave a speech at Hillsdale College on anti-Semitism and cancel culture he first talked for two minutes about why he and heritage

Starting point is 02:32:30 will continue to oppose cancellation and the importance of loyalty towards friends. And defended his previous statement by reiterating that if you have a problem with someone's content issues or ideas, then by all means, go debate them, unquote. But then he admitted that his mistake, which was made, quote unquote, with the best intentions, was focusing on the legitimate problem of cancellation over other problems like anti-Semitism. The Roberts then immediately justified his rhetoric as an attempt to reach out to the quote-unquote

Starting point is 02:33:06 several million young men on the quote-unquote far fringes of the right who are increasingly anti-Semitic. And our motivation at Heritage for making that statement was to begin appealing even more than we have to those

Starting point is 02:33:22 largely disaffected young men who are looking for belonging and identity by following the wrong people. This pseudo-apology continues to frame this primarily as an issue of cancellation. Who is asking to cancel Tucker? Roberts acts as if there is nothing in between,

Starting point is 02:33:41 a lifelong endorsement and total cancellation. After Robert's comments at Hillsdale College, another member of the Heritage Anti-Semitism Task Force, attorney Ian Speer, announced that he was leaving Heritage and posted a statement calling Roberts Hillsdale College speech A, quote, strategic non-apology that doubles down on loyalty to Tucker Carlson, muses about welcoming Groyper's and the Groyper Curious into the movement

Starting point is 02:34:08 and continues to gaslight everyone about cancellation when that clearly isn't the issue, unquote. That same day, Tuesday, November 4th, Chris DeMuth, a Heritage Distinguished Fellow, also confirmed his resignation. And an email leaped from the co-chairs of the Heritage-affiliated National Task Force to combat anti-Semitism, sent to task force members with a list of demands the Heritage President Kevin Roberts. Demands including that he delete his initial video, apologize to Jews and Christians, who, quote,

Starting point is 02:34:41 believe that Israel has a special role to play both biblically and politically, unquote, a demand to condemn but not cancel, Tucker Carlson's anti-Semitic content and statements, and host Shabbat dinners for the Heritage Interns and Junior staff. To quote directly from this leaked email addressing Roberts, quote, You pointed out repeatedly that we face a challenge in reaching disenfranchised young men who are caught in the spells of Nick Fuentes and others. To address this issue specifically, we recommend hiring a visiting fellow,

Starting point is 02:35:15 one who shares mainstream conservative views on Israel, Jews, and Christian Zionists, who would help identify strategies and tools to win Gen Z and beyond. It is clear that there is an internal battle within the conservative movement over who is to be included. The division between no enemy to the right versus a moral conservatism demands our attention, a conference that provides some guidelines to the movement on how to best keep unity without needing to include the worst among us, unquote. Two days later, the National Task Force decided to break ties with the Heritage Foundation,

Starting point is 02:35:56 writing in an email that it was, quote, important for us to continue the work of the task force outside the Heritage Foundation for a season, unquote, writing that this whole incident, quote, exposed a serious problem within the conservative movement, unquote. It's been like this for a long time. They've just been so focused on campus activists protesting the Palestinian genocide that they've missed the festering anti-Semitism spread across the right. Quote, the National Task Force to combat anti-Semitism will also now expand our work

Starting point is 02:36:34 to fight the rising scourge of anti-Semitism on the right, beyond our previous work combating the pro-Hamas movement on the left, unquote. On November 18th, the task force will be hosting a conference in Washington on, quote, exposing and countering

Starting point is 02:36:50 extremism and anti-Semitism on the right, in partnership with the conference of Christian Presidents for Israel. It could happen here. We'll return after these messages. At this point, Heritage went into complete damage control. Roberts apologized during a Heritage All-Hands meeting last Wednesday, November 5th, Quote, I made a mistake and I let you down, and I let down this institution, period, full stop, unquote.

Starting point is 02:37:30 Roberts claimed that it was the since-resigned chief of staff, Ryan Newhouse, who wrote the script for Robert's initial video entirely himself and lied about the script being approved by a handful of colleagues. Roberts called the use of the phrase of venomous coalition, a quote-unquote, terrible choice of words. The Washington Free Beacon reported that Roberts said he was willing to resign but felt a quote-unquote moral obligation to repair the situation and had told the Heritage Foundation Board of Directors, quote, I made the mess, let me clean it up, unquote. During the All Hands meeting, Roberts explained that the video came to be because Heritage was under pressure to make a statement that Carlson was, quote, no longer part of the conservative movement, unquote. Later in this meeting, Roberts acknowledged that there could be a, quote, limiting principle to no cancellation. Longtime Heritage Research Fellow Robert Rector went on a tirade against Tucker and Fuentes, likening Tucker's show to stepping into a lunatic asylum and advocated for a return of right-wing cancellation. Because if you don't have boundaries on who you regard inside the movement, the movement will destroy itself.

Starting point is 02:38:49 and it will create a PR nightmare for everybody in it. And the boundaries that he set forth, William Buckley, in early 1960s, were twofold. You have to expunge all anti-Semitism, all of it. But that's just part of it, Brumke of the conservative movement. The other is you have to expel the lunatics, okay? The lunatics who think that Eisenhower was a communist, okay? And a whole bunch of, and we have them back now. Okay? They are both here back just the way they were in 1959.

Starting point is 02:39:25 And we have to go back and set the general parameters. You say, oh, we don't cancel. We do cancel. Did we cancel David Duke? Yes. You don't even know who David Duke was, probably most of them. I'd say, you know. Yes. Do we cancel the John Byrd Society? Yes. Okay? Because they were harmful because if they're in your movement, you look like clown. This highlights so much of my frustration around this whole controversy with all of these conservatives at the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party, trying to say that obviously the leopards who are eating people's faces aren't actually conservatives, despite them being a part of the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party. Bircherism has achieved a near total capture of the modern-day Republican Party, especially under Trump.

Starting point is 02:40:14 You can't remove the John Birch Society element from the modern-day Republican Party without the whole. whole party collapsing. They won. That's what the party is now. That's what Heritage's project 2025 is. Kevin Roberts responded to rector's tirade by continuing to advocate that Heritage should attempt to bring some of Fuentes' audience into the conservative fold. But if there's a segment of that audience who might be with us and they really are not Nazis and anti-Semites, then maybe we can eventually. bring them into the fold. I think we have to think that way. None of these people can be allowed to distance themselves from the leopards-eating people's

Starting point is 02:40:57 faces party. To quote a write-up from the right-wing Rag National Review, quote, the heritage staff meeting exposed something of a generational divide within heritage. As one staffer who claimed to represent the perspective of the foundation's younger employees, said that she did not have a problem with Robert's initial defense of Carlson and wanted to make sure that the viewpoints of her generation, who she said were generally more critical of Israel, would still be welcome at heritage. The Heritage Tucker Fuentes debacle has come in a time

Starting point is 02:41:30 where the right was already in the middle of a debate over how to handle infighting, conservative anti-cancel culture, and the newly adopted principle of no enemies to the right, after years of suffering from liberal-led de-platforming campaigns during the quote-unquote woke era. This debate really came to a head last month after the young Republican pro-Hitler racist group chat scandal dropped, which was subsequently brushed off by people like Matt Walsh

Starting point is 02:41:59 and Vice President J.D. Vans, who dismissed the texts, telling people who are concerned about it to quote-unquote grow up while referring to the chat as a college group chat, calling the members kids and young boys, when the group chat in question was made up of men in their 30s. Don't put things on the internet, like be careful with what you post. If you put something in a group chat, assume that some scumbag is going to leak it in an effort to try to cause you harm or cause your family harm.

Starting point is 02:42:28 But the reality is that kids do stupid things, especially young boys, they tell edgy, offensive jokes. Like, that's what kids do. And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive. stupid joke is caused to ruin their lives. And at some point, we're all going to have to say enough of this BS. We're not going to allow the worst moment and a 21-year-old's group chat to ruin a kid's life for the rest of time. That's just not okay. Like, we live in a digital world. This stuff is now Etzgen Stone online. We're all going to have to say, you know what? No, no, no. We're not doing this. We're not canceling kids because they do something stupid in a

Starting point is 02:43:11 group chat. And if I have to be the person who carries that message forward, I'm fine with it. To quote, Matt Walsh, quote, I said a few weeks ago that we all need to band together in the wake of Charlie's death. And the answer I got back from a lot of people on the right was basically no. Well, okay then, guys, we'll just lose instead. The left will keep the united front and defend their guys no matter what, while we keep throwing each other to the wolves at every opportunity. Great plan. The left actually wants me dead. Like, specifically and personally. They're the reason why I need security at my house,

Starting point is 02:43:45 why I worry for my children's safety. We've had to make major changes to the way we live our daily lives to account for this danger. So when I say that I want to stop the infighting and unite against this threat, that's the context. I'm sorry if the squabbles among right-winger's

Starting point is 02:44:02 just kind of pale in comparison for me. If you have the luxury to care more about that, I envy you, I truly do. Last week, Megan Kelly interviewed Tucker and Shapiro across a two-day event where she asked both about the possibility of uniting the right. Is there any way that you and Ben Shapiro can actually find your way to detente? I'm not against Ben Shapiro. He did like a 40-minute thing yesterday calling me dangerous and all this stuff. It's like I didn't watch it because why.

Starting point is 02:44:36 But I got a lot of texts about it and it's like I'm not. I don't think Ben Shapiro is driving a lot of this stuff. I don't consider him like the world's greatest force for evil. I don't feel that way at all. I don't actually think about him ever. So I don't want to have a war with Ben Shapiro. I don't know. Does he really think that me doing an interview in which I explained that anti-Semitism is wrong

Starting point is 02:44:57 to one of the lead purveyors of anti-Semitism, that that somehow makes me a Nazi? What is the argument here? I'm going to ask him tomorrow night. I don't even understand what the argument is. All I know is that the right, and I've been on the right since before, Ben was born, is acting like the left in such an amazingly precise way that I'm like, what the hell is going on?

Starting point is 02:45:18 I agree with Tucker that the right is in fact acting like the left by again massaging its radicals in the name of some sort of faux unity. That does that sound detente? Because, again, I'm not, again, trying to turn this personal is a mistake. I know, but can it happen? During the fallout of the Tucker Fuentes interview, Far-right influencer Mike Sernovich said, quote, there's a lot of bad faith going on,

Starting point is 02:45:44 so this is for those few of you perplexed about the reluctance of mega people to ever disavow anyone. We are old, and we know it never stops. They will always demand more. Hence, we draw a hard line. It's not our job to be internet cops, unquote. After trailblazing this rhetoric for the new right,

Starting point is 02:46:06 now, Walsh and Vance, find themselves in an uncomfortable position. Walsh, due to his employer, Ben Shibiro, and Vance because of his future political prospects. In the midst of the Fuentes controversy, Walsh posted, quote, We have a very short window of time where we control Congress and the White House

Starting point is 02:46:27 and we have the power to push our agenda forward. We're going to waste this window fighting with each other. We're going to squander everything. I'm furious, honestly. unquote. I have just about had it with Matt Walsh. Matt, you work for this fucking guy. Whose side are you on already? Cut the shit. Matt Walsh, every day on his show, he goes on Twitter and his show and says, this is all just gossip and drama. It ain't gossip and drama. This is the war. Might not be the one you wanted, but this is the one that's going on. So Walsh wants to recuse

Starting point is 02:47:03 himself from this and say, hey man, I just care about America. Hey, fucker, it's happening in America right now. Tucker's an American last I checked. This is going on here. We didn't make anti-Semitism the wedge issue. They did. We didn't make fighting Israel's wars the wedge issue. They did. And Walsh wants to get on Twitter and say, I just don't want to talk about it. I just want to keep taking a paycheck from the worst to the worst Shapiro. You got to pick aside. And nobody can let him get away with this. As long as you're America first, You need to be in his reply saying, no, Matt, you work for Ben Shapiro, cuck. Vance's only statement about this debacle reads, quote,

Starting point is 02:47:49 The infighting is stupid. I care about my fellow citizens, particularly young Americans, being able to afford a decent life. I care about immigration and our sovereignty. And I care about establishing peace overseas so our resources can be focused at home. If you care about these things, too, let's work together, unquote. Compare that to Mike Pence, sharing an article critical of Fuentes by the Wall Street Journal editorial board titled The Rights New Anti-Semites. Meanwhile, Nick Fuentes is bragging that he has Vance caught in his groiper squeeze,

Starting point is 02:48:28 threatening to send Gropers to 2028 primary states to disrupt Vance's campaign, much like the Groyper War of 2019 targeting T.P. USA. He's getting squeezed because the Groypers are on the one hand saying, hey, listen, fat boy, we want America first. You want to run for president. We want to hear you say America first. And on the other side, he's got his donors. And they're saying they're horrible anti-Semites. You have to disavow them. You have to forcefully condemn them. condemn Tucker, condemn the Groyper's. Now, with Vance condemns the Groyper's, we are deploying to Iowa. Raise your right hand.

Starting point is 02:49:17 I swear I'm going to move to Iowa. And New Hampshire, and Nevada, and South Carolina, and one primary after the next. And we will go to every town hall. We will go to every meet and greet where there's four or five people. and we will be there, and we'll do it for free. Nick has since laid out a more clear three-year strategy for his fans to shape the upcoming presidential primary and infiltrate the next Republican White House. In some ways, I think Ted Cruz is right.

Starting point is 02:49:52 This has been a time of choosing. The only problem is that the choice has already been made. The Fuentes interview is already Tucker Carlson's fourth month. most popular video ever, just two weeks after its release. Fouentes' quote tweet of Shapiro's taked Shapiro by 120,000 likes. Fuentes' last 10 live streams have had an average viewership of over 800,000 people on Rumble, beating Shapiro's average YouTube view count by hundreds of thousands. The New York Times has put out seven pieces on Fuentes, both articles and opinion, since the Tucker interview, plus other related news stories about Heritage and Tucker, which

Starting point is 02:50:44 obviously mention Fuentes. Other outlets from the Wall Street Journal to the Washington Post have followed suit. CNN did a five-minute and 30-second segment on the fallout of the heritage Tucker Fuentes situation and what it means for the future of the Republican Party. CNN has since have done more segments on the issue, including one with Ben Shapiro. Multiple Fuentes segments have also aired on MSNBC. Here's a sampling. For once, Donald Trump has remained silent on an issue as well as J.D. Vance, who is reportedly personally close to Carlson.

Starting point is 02:51:19 It also has opened up an uncomfortable discussion for the GOP about what place people like Nick Fuentes have within the MAGA movement. And now to the brewing war within MAGA over the future of the American conservative movement. It comes as far-right influencer Nick Fuentes recently recorded a cordial interview at the invitation of Tucker Carlson that more than five million people have viewed. The latest op-ed in the Los Angeles Times by our next guest is highlighting this growing division. Contributing writer Matt Lewis contends that some Trump loyalists are now objecting to MAGA's quote, white power element. Matt joins us now. He's an author, columnist and conservative writer.

Starting point is 02:51:55 Matt, the fact that we're even talking about a quote-unquote white power element is, I think, concerning on its face. But this is also something that's persisted within MAGA over the course of the last 10 years. I mean, I remember covering when Trump himself had dinner with Nick Fuentes at the invitation of Kanye West just a few years ago, November 22 at Maralago. Why was this not a conversation then? And what's changed now? Look, yeah, I think you're totally right. I mean, part of it is that Donald Trump has actually been a really good friend to Israel. I never thought the leopards would eat my face, Saab's conservative columnist who voted for the left. Eppards Eating People's Faces Party. Even calling Fuentes a quote-unquote white power figure

Starting point is 02:52:37 shows how outdated and out of touch the talking heads and many journalists are, it's not the 80s anymore. White power, what are you talking about? That's not what Fentes is doing. If you can't recognize that, you shouldn't be talking about it. These talking heads are completely ill-equipped to understand Gen Z politics or the lack thereof. We saw this in the reporting on,

Starting point is 02:53:01 Tyler Robinson, and the past few mass-killing fandom school shooters. Here's MSNBC again. According to some sources at the Heritage Foundation, a lot of their interns, something like 40 to 50 percent or something, agree with foysis, which is really stunning if you were around the conservative movement, let's say, in the George W. Bush era. The fucking George W. Bush era. Unbelievable. Nick Fuentes' politically vulgar obscenity is exactly what pushes his clips into people's social media feeds, cutting through the dry, neoconservative boomer slop

Starting point is 02:53:40 of older Republican content creators. As Trump 2.0 continues, and MAGA becomes the establishment again, it's not going to be cool to listen to Benny Johnson, whoever's hosting the new Charlie Kirk Show or Ben Shapiro, to the extent to which listening to any of those is even still cool or countercultural. Fuentes doesn't have this same problem. He can ride the cultural vibe shift

Starting point is 02:54:08 of the 2024 election and still appeal to the reactionary tendencies of some young men, but is outside enough to continue benefiting from the Gen Z thirst for anti-establishment populism. At the end of last month, there was a short article in the Atlantic,

Starting point is 02:54:26 titled The Firewall Against Nick Fuentes is Crumbling. The white supremacist influencer is entering the MAGA mainstream. And yeah, that's correct. The attack agreement against talking about covering or platforming Nick has slowly fallen apart the past few months. Google trends graphs of search popularity has Nick Fuentes high above Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, or Candice Owens. And considering Nick's newfound fame,

Starting point is 02:54:54 he isn't trying to slow down or moderate his views to appeal to a bigger audience and he doesn't need to. The audience is coming to him. To explain why his audience is growing so much, it's not that he's gotten less ideologically dogmatic as of recent. It's that the Zuma world has caught up to the anti-ideology behind Nick Fuentes, the void of animosity that animates Fuentes, which is underneath his gesturing to relics of tradition and culture to offer a North Star through the grievance-inspired nihilism he actually embodies. Nick Fuentes is a meme. His clips spread like a meme. His griper movement is named after a meme. And Nick is ready, willing, and able to seize the spotlight he has

Starting point is 02:55:45 been gifted. To Nick, this controversy demonstrates that the prestigious Heritage Foundation is territory ripe for Groyper infiltration. What this signifies is that heritage, the accreditation institution, the brain, the priestly class that promulgates the Republican dogma, if that institution says that Groyperism is up for debate, it's on the table, it's not canceled, we should talk about the ideas, and we should defend the people that defend the people that defend the the Groypers or talk to the Groypers. It signifies that, one, that place is a safe harbor, as I said before. So a Groyper could go to work at Heritage and maybe feel welcome and

Starting point is 02:56:36 comfortable and he won't be fired. And you might have a Groyper at Heritage who is going to be writing a policy paper about who knows, foreign policy, education, immigration. They might be considered like an expert and maybe they'll go on to be a legislative director for a senator and they might be writing laws for the U.S. government. It's conceivable. If the president of Heritage says Tucker is in the big tent, then that means that Tucker and Nick Fuentes sympathizers are allowed to be employed at Heritage. And thus, they might be in the position to determine the dogma. They can write the doctrine. Conservative writer Rob Drear has claimed, based on DC contacts and talking with Gen Z staffers,

Starting point is 02:57:30 quote, between 30 to 40 percent of the zoomers who work in official Republican Washington are fans of Nick Fuentes, unquote, writing that this is emblematic of a generation, quote, willing to revel in transgression such as they tear down the pillars of civilization. just for the fun of seeing those who have been gate-kept-away, breaching containment. The Groyper thing is real. It is not a fringe movement in that it really has infiltrated young conservative Washington networks to a significant degree. After the young Republican racist group chat story dropped, Nick Fuentes said on his show, quote,

Starting point is 02:58:15 Groopers are all over the government, and everyone knows that. There's groipers at Harvard. There's groipers in all the Ivy League schools. I talked to all of them. There's groopers in government. There's groopers in every department, every agency, unquote. There's no reason to believe Nick is exaggerating. This is something he has advocated his followers do for years.

Starting point is 02:58:43 and stories like the young Republican pro-Hitler group chat are evidence of this. Nick Fuentes is mainstream now. Nick Fuentes is a legitimate part of the mainstream conservative movement. Even if he doesn't become the quote-unquote successor to his longtime nemesis Charlie Kirk, Fuentes is already on course to be the main figure to have gained the most from Kirk's death

Starting point is 02:59:12 and emerged advantageous. This has been It Could Happen here. See you on the other side. All I know is what I've been told, and that's a half-truth is a whole lie. Almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved, until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story. I'm telling you, we know Quincy Kilder, we know. A story that law enforcement used to convict six people, and that got the citizen investigator on national TV.

Starting point is 03:00:09 Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky Housewives, helped give justice to Jessica Curran. My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her, or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y'all said. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her.

Starting point is 03:00:35 They made me say that I poured gas on her. From Lava for Good, this is Graves County. A show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame. America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad-free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and love within each other.

Starting point is 03:01:26 Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for one another. I'm Elliot Connie, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope. What would be a clue that would be like? I've gotten lots of text messages from him. This one's from a little bit better of a version of him. Because he's feeding himself well. It's always a concern. Like, are you eating well? He's actually an amazing cook.

Starting point is 03:01:50 There was this one time where we had neighbors and I saved their dog. And I ended up inviting them over for food. And that was like one of my proudest moments. This is family therapy. Real families, real stories on a journey to heal together. Listen to season two of family therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect podcast network. iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jenna World.

Starting point is 03:02:18 Jenna Jamison, Vivid Video, and The Valley, is a new podcast about the history of the adult film industry. I'm Molly Lambert, host of Heidi World The Heidi Fly Story, and I'll be your tour guide on a wild ride through adult films. We get paid more than the men. We call the shots. In what way is that degrading? That's us taking hold of our life. In the 1990s, actress Jenna Jameson crossed over into mainstream culture, redefined stardom, then left it all behind.

Starting point is 03:02:51 I'm a powerful woman. I think that's intimidating to a man. With a cast of hundreds of actors and comedians playing key figures, we'll take a look at how adult films became legal in the 70s, hugely profitable in the 80s and 90s, and fell off a financial cliff in the 2000. Listen to Geno World on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, fellow seekers of the dark. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me in Nocturno? Tales from the Shadows.

Starting point is 03:03:28 An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends and lore of Latin America. Take a trip from ghastly encounters with evil spirits To bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures And experience the horrors to have haunted Latin America Since the beginning of time You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows

Starting point is 03:04:04 as part of my Cultura Podcast Network, available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, The Crumbling World, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans.

Starting point is 03:04:34 This episode, we are covering the week of November 5th to November 13th. That's how I feel about the week. Yeah. That's how you feel. Uh-huh. Well, the shutdown is now over, the longest shutdown in U.S. history. Last weekend, eight Democratic senators caved on the shutdown, approving a deal to reopen the government without extending the existing Obamacare subsidies, gaining only a promise to have a sense. Senate floor vote on health care tax credits sometime in December, with no indication given that

Starting point is 03:05:11 this vote would pass the chamber and no commitment from Speaker Mike Johnson that he would hold a vote in the House. None of the Democratic senators that sided with the Republicans are up for re-election in 26. Yeah, and I think that suggests pretty clearly that this was orchestrated and staged by the Democratic Party as a whole. You don't have, oh, we picked eight specific people you can't vote against in the next cycle. Yeah. That, yeah, it's very clearly just stage managing. Specifically, with the Schumer being somewhat in charge of the Senate, the Democrats,

Starting point is 03:05:46 who likely would have been the person orchestrating this, who himself did not vote for this deal, was able to personally vote against it, despite likely being the one orchestrating this entire deal. Yeah. Two of the senators who signed on are retiring at the end of their term. But even if we can't get health care through this shutdown bill, you know what these Democrats did, did able to squeeze in there? Well, I don't know if the Democrats squeezed it in there,

Starting point is 03:06:15 but it is in there. That's a Delta 8 hemp THC ban, which is included in the Senate funding bill. Absolutely awful. Yeah, of course, I did. Boy, howdy, and the hemp industry has gotten angry about this. They're planning to fight it in 2026. I guess we'll all see, because it takes a while to take effect. But yeah, that is, there's a lot of hemp farms in Kentucky that are pissed off right now.

Starting point is 03:06:43 Yep. So we can't get health care, but at least we also can't get hemp THHC. So what if there wasn't bread or circuses? What would happen then? Wow. We would vote for the Democrats, Mia, because they're the least bad options. I think that's how that goes, right? I've been on blue sky a few times this week.

Starting point is 03:07:04 I think I've got it pretty drilled in. Catherine Cortez, maestro of Nevada, Dick Derman of Illinois, John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire, Tim Kane of Virginia, Angus King of Maine, no King's protest member just dropped.

Starting point is 03:07:22 Catherine Cortez Mosto of Nevada and Jean Shaheen of New Hampshire. Speaking of the Senate, and the Oversight Committee this whole Jeffrey Epstein thing doesn't seem to be going away, does it? Man, like you, I was a skeptic about, like, could there be anything in there

Starting point is 03:07:43 that's actually going to hurt Trump if he hasn't been hurt so far by everything that is out there? And I don't know, I guess I'm still a little bit of a skeptic, but it's increasingly hard to be because, like, how much, how could it be worse than this? Yeah, there's something that isn't this.

Starting point is 03:08:01 How could it be worse than Donald Trump was at Jeffrey Epstein's mansion and walked into a glass door because he was so busy, ogling children. Yeah, the fact that this is what they released to distract you from the stuff they don't want to release. Well, this was the Democrats.

Starting point is 03:08:18 To be fair. Well, both. This was the emails they were able to subpoena from Jeffrey Epstein's estate as a part of the oversight investigation into the federal government's investigation of the Epstein files. Yesterday, the Oversight Committee released this batch of files related to the Epstein investigation, mostly of note, a series of emails from about 2011 to 2019, including one from

Starting point is 03:08:43 Epstein, written to Maxwell from 2011, quote, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump. Victim, redacted, named victim, spent hours at my house with him. he has never once been mentioned police chief ETC I'm 75% there unquote in a short email exchange from December of 2018 an unknown individual sent

Starting point is 03:09:07 Jeffrey Epstein this message quote it will all blow over they're really just trying to take down Trump and doing whatever they can to do that with Epstein replying yes, fix thanks it's wild because I am the one

Starting point is 03:09:21 able to take him down whatever could he mean by that Yeah. Who knows? There's no way to tell. There's absolutely no way to tell. If you are currently in high school English class and people tell you you will not be able to make millions of dollars if you're unable to use grammar or punctuation or capital letters correctly, that that appears not to have been an impediment to Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein's typing style is fascinating. It's awful. It's extremely distinctive, which I suppose is a valuable thing in itself. No, it's fascinating. But, I mean, there's a lot of different emails of note.

Starting point is 03:09:59 A 2019 email from Epstein to Michael Wolfe, quote, victim, Mar-a-Lago, redacted. Trump said he asked me to resign. Never a member ever. Of course, he knew about the girls as he asked Galane to stop, unquote. Which, by the way, the way that I've been seeing that quote passed around is just that he knew about the girls part, which makes it a lot. little bit technically ambiguous as to what he's talking about, but the second part being as he asked his lane to stop, oh, that's as blatant as it could possibly be, right? What Eppsty's saying there is really clear. The main thing that's clear from this exchange is at the very least,

Starting point is 03:10:40 the extent to which Trump was very aware of Epstein's activities. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in which everyone was, not just fucking Donald Trump, but, like the Obama White House's chief legal counsel from 2011 and 2014, right, who he messaged with regularly and seems to have been flirting with him, right? She seems to have been into him. And they're all just kind of casually, or he is with them casually joking about, like, being a pedophile. Yeah. There's emails from Steve Bannon here, who he's just chatting with. Like, he emails Peter Thiel at one point. The Steve Bannon exchange is from 29. from Jeffrey Epstein.

Starting point is 03:11:26 Yeah. Talking about a recent, like, state visit message. Prince Andrew and Trump today. Too funny. Another reply from Epstein. Recall Prince Andrew's accuser came out of Mar-a-Lago. And response from Bannon, can't believe nobody's making you the connective tissue.

Starting point is 03:11:49 Jesus Christ. Wild. Wildly blatant stuff. In exchange from 2015, from Michael Wolfe to Jeffrey Epstein, I hear CNN is planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on air or in scrum afterwards. Epstein replied, If you were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it should be?

Starting point is 03:12:12 Wolf responded to that, quote, I think you should let him hang himself. If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the house, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency. you can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you. Or, if it really looks like he could win, you could save him, generating a debt. Of course, it is possible that when asked, he'll say Jeffrey's a great guy and has gotten a raw deal and is a victim of political correctness, which is to be outlawed in a Trump regime. Imagine putting that in writing to a Gmail address.

Starting point is 03:12:47 Gmail is a fascinating choice by Epstein. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Also, the fact that every goddamn one of these messages ends with scent on my iPad is, it's just constantly amusing. Sent on my iPhone is for a lot of these, yeah. They're always like two extra spaces between sentences. Like, you can tell their old people typing on iPads a lot of the time with their fucking clumsy ass fingers. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 03:13:12 It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Text size, huge. Some really disturbing exchanges from Epstein and a man named Landon Thomas, Junior, with Epstein saying, Would you like a photo of Donald and girls in bikinis in my kitchen? Sure, bro. Hawaiian tropical girl Lauren Petrella. Epstein then sent a link displaying an image of a woman.

Starting point is 03:13:39 Quote, my 20-year-old girlfriend in 93, that after two years I gave to Donald, unquote. One thing I want to note here is that Landon Thomas Jr. Yeah, baby. Long, long time journalist at the New York Times, and he's just handed this. Financial journalist. So he couldn't do anything with it. He could do nothing with it, obviously. He's a financial journalist.

Starting point is 03:14:03 He can't report on what financier Jeffrey Epstein tells him about Donald Trump walking into a glass door because he was ogling naked children at Jeffrey Epstein's mansion. That's a thing that Jeffrey joked about to him, and the New York Times never printed. in 2016 they had this yeah yeah there's a tendency and i understand why to get sort of burned out on this right to be like oh my god it's more epstein news but we should be furious about this yeah this was you know what what we have here and this isn't even the stuff they're trying to hide right this isn't the abstein files this is this is just the emails that the oversight committee has been able to get right and it suggests very plainly that we are ruled by a group of pedophiles

Starting point is 03:14:50 and I refuse to call them a cabal because cabal implies that they work in the shadows. They were not. The entire ruling class knew this was going on openly. And they're joking about it.

Starting point is 03:15:00 Yeah, they don't care. Yeah, they think it's funny. There's this exchange from 2017 between Jeffrey and an unknown individual where Jeffrey says, you are welcome at my house always and more private. The person responds,

Starting point is 03:15:14 very well, just send me the address again and the code to the door so I can get to the second floor and send me the day and time. Thanks. Jeffrey said, 10 p.m. Should I bring special cake from New York? The unknown individual responded, yes. And then, once they arrived, they sent the message, quote, I'm at the door, but I will wait for my time. I don't want to come early to find Trump in your house. Two laughing emojis. 2017. Christ. Yeah. And the reason they're doing this, right? The reason they're just,

Starting point is 03:15:46 they're so blatant about this, reason they all think it's so funny, the reason they're just doing this of a completely unencrypted email in a way that like someone someone planning a completely legal protest where you stand outside of a building with signs right would not plan it like this the reason they're doing this is that these people and men like them have been ruling this country for 500 years in an uninterrupted line from Columbus's fucking crew through on hispaniola through Jefferson and Sally Hemings like to Epstein it is is an uninterrupted line they think that they are completely invincible and that no one will ever challenge them. And, you know, maybe, maybe they're fucking right.

Starting point is 03:16:26 Like, for all of the sort of moaning and complaining about woke censorship and Me Too and cancel culture, these people never shot the fuck up, ever, at any point. All of these people are running around to their fucking Epstein converses, taking a bunch of money to talk about eugenics. Well, and that's, I mean, there was, there was some fun stuff about that in here, too, because he was emailing with Lawrence Krause. Less eugenics and more hatred of women. where, like, there were very funny emails where Krauss was being like, you know, I'd made a comment at a speech that half of all the IQ in the world comes from women, but they're more than half the population.

Starting point is 03:17:01 Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Like a lot of just like casual, it's a really interesting insight into how people at kind of the highest levels of finance and government and just wealth in general and in media in like communicated with each other during this period of time. I'm sure it's different now. Yeah. Because people are even less good at writing. But yeah, it's a useful, it's a snapshot that we don't get anywhere else of like this chunk of the, I mean, talking about that fucker at the New York Times, who, by the way, was shit canned in 2019 for soliciting donations from Jeffrey Epstein and not informing them of his personal relationship. But, again, the Times never published anything based on their conversations. it's the same group of people who have been telling us every issue that like it might tangentially be connected to like transitioning is newsworthy and it's incredibly newsworthy if this like official at a college might have plagiarized once in their childhood but in their youth but like it's not newsworthy at all to talk about the possible future president walking face first into a glass door

Starting point is 03:18:15 because he's staring at naked children in a pedophiles mansion. This is the period where they were running stories about the food at Grenel College. Yeah. And you can, you know, and there's another I think part of this too where if you look to these things, you can find these people all complaining

Starting point is 03:18:31 about me too, right? Yeah. You can find these people all doing their sort of like, oh, these are all the same people who do all of the like, oh, like we're the bold truth tellers, blah, blah, blah. We're being censored by like cancer culture. I want to take a stab at the question that that you're actually not allowed to ask, you know,

Starting point is 03:18:47 and what I say you're not allowed to ask is these people don't you want you to ask. All the fucking hedge fund manage, the CEOs, all the senators, all the presidents, everyone in these fucking files does not want you to ask a simple question, why do we have a ruling class? Like, we gave them 500 years of running this continent. And do you know what they produced? Again, 500 years of like uninterrupted pedophiles, right? We are on year 500 of this, from like Columbus to Jefferson to Absin to Trump, right?

Starting point is 03:19:14 So why do we have this? That's just not how people, people, no one's going to a store or to the politics store or heading out to vote and voting for another year of the pedophile ruling class. People don't really think, people don't tend to think about it that way. And in part they don't because the ruling strata of the United States has not portrayed itself in the same unbroken way, right? Like it very much makes an effort not to in public. And there's an extent to which it is, it's certainly different than like the old aristocracy of the British and the landed gentry that ruled the British Empire. It's not exactly the same. But it is like the same kind of people. And in a lot of cases, the same families that continue to control large amounts of wealth and inherit political power. I mean, there's another fucking Kennedy who seems like a nice kid getting into politics just as we speak, right? I don't know. I feel like we'll have a dedicated episode.

Starting point is 03:20:13 on more of the Epstein stuff. And there's an extent to which I keep thinking about that bit in the community where it's like no one's on the other side of this issue that's listening to this podcast. Everybody's very angry about the pedophilia. Everybody's very angry about all of this stuff. And I have mostly been interpreting it

Starting point is 03:20:31 through just like laughing over the last day or two, which is bad because it's like really bad stuff. You shouldn't just do that at it. But like what else? What other reactions? Like you can pick and choose whatever you do, I think to your point, Mia, however you react to this is not going to change anything. Right?

Starting point is 03:20:49 Like, so far it hasn't. Yeah. Well, but I mean, okay, I don't think that's completely true. You can watch how just, like, pissed off and scared these people were about, like, about Me Too, right? And, like, you can go listen to Bannon a couple of weeks ago talking about how if they lose the election, like, we're all going to prison. Yeah. Right.

Starting point is 03:21:07 Like, these people are, like, concerned about even, like, Me Too, which was a fairly milked, like, it wasn't like a particularly radical feminist movement, right? And these people were losing their fucking minds about it. And, you know, like, we have the potential to organize feminist movements that can actually do things about this shit.

Starting point is 03:21:27 Like, we are capable of building new feminist movements. We did one not that long ago that was a big part of this administration collapsing the first time. And we can do it again. I'm not saying there's no point in fighting them. I'm just saying, like, your reaction in the moment

Starting point is 03:21:43 to the Epstein leaks doesn't matter as much as is this going to you is this going to cause any kind of like long term resistance to the administration is this going to and maybe it will but like I guess the thing that I'm curious about is like what what is what are what are we doing to try and make this matter right because like that's that's where I am yeah but the the answer the question, is this going to matter, is also something that every single one of us decides, right? Because if we all just do nothing, then, yeah, nothing will happen, right? If we go mobilize and we go do things to resist these people, and we intensify the things we're already doing if we start doing new things, if we start doing new sort of feminist insurgencies, right? Then things can change.

Starting point is 03:22:33 But if we don't, they're not going to, and we're just going to have another 500 years of these pedophiles ruling everything. I mean, I think that it's probably more a matter of, like, this is likely to shift more people away from the GOP, at least in the immediate future. I don't think in the long term, I don't know that you don't build a coalition off of this because the dims certainly aren't trying to. You at least get this, like, whiter awareness of where the real problem was, but I just don't know. I think it's going to be utilized electorally by some Republicans to eventually decouple the party from Trump. after this becomes more and more evident and they're looking for a way to get themselves out

Starting point is 03:23:14 of becoming the Trump Party and turning on him specifically through this issue will probably be one of the methods in which they do that. And you see that with some people even like Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Bobbert. Yeah. Rod Dreher is writing about some stuff adjacent to this, right? These are the guys you think

Starting point is 03:23:32 Vance needs to lead the party away from Trump. Yeah. Yeah, and are already viewing Trump as a sort of lame duck presidency in so much is that he's kind of failed to do a whole bunch of stuff especially on the economy in the past year

Starting point is 03:23:47 the midterms are about to get up and running that's going to take up a whole bunch of energy everyone expects the Dems to do very well in the midterms and then prevent the Trump administration in the final two years

Starting point is 03:23:56 from getting much of anything done through blocking things in Congress and that's what that's what a lot of people on the far right are like taking this situation as

Starting point is 03:24:06 as basically January to now was the second Trump administration. This is the most that they're going to get done. And now it's kind of all downhill from here. And they're looking far beyond Trump now. Yes. I want to tack back to the Times real quickly before we move past this.

Starting point is 03:24:38 Like, Garris, some of those emails you read, if I'm not mistaken, were like in December of 2018, right? Yeah. The 2018 ones are Epstein saying, I am the one able to take him down. That one's from 2018. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about, I mean, the week before the midterms and a week after midterms in terms of Times front page stories, right? The week before the midterm to 2018, the Times ran 12 stories.

Starting point is 03:25:08 on the quote-unquote migrant caravan on the front page, it ran 24th. Oh, yeah, I remember that. The week after, it ran five, the migrant caravan continued to grow as more people. I was physically present in Tijuana, right, as the caravan was arriving, and I continued to be present for the rest of that year.

Starting point is 03:25:28 The caravan continued to grow. More people continued to come, right? This is a, and a choice was made not to cover the Epstein stuff that Robert spoke about, right? a choice was also made at that time to really like this caravan was not huge it was large but it wasn't a hugely remarkable number of migrants and it occupied 12 front page stories during that one week before the election right i i don't know how else i can say this like they're literally saying look over there yeah and well and i guess that's part of my part of my fear gear is i think that is

Starting point is 03:26:05 accurate as to how things are going to play out and that the dims will have a good midterm and probably pretty good results in the 2020. That's less clear to me, you know, because in part, if the dims have a really good 2026 and then things continue to get worse, maybe we'll blame the party. I don't know. Yeah. Who's going to show up on the, you know, after Trump, that that's all a little unclear. But what worries me is that in the mix of all that, we're going to get away from, and I think this is almost inevitable, actual accountability for these people. Like, I don't foresee they're being strong punitive. I foresee things moving forward, possibly in a way where they get quite a bit better,

Starting point is 03:26:44 but not where I don't see the likelihood of these people getting punished. And I don't know that somebody running in 2028 on a platform of we're going to hang these people in the street would win, but I think it's worth a shot. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty far off. I really know. Yeah, I'm not sure how much this will still be relevant by then. I mean, after Mike Johnson for seven weeks delayed the swearing in of Arizona Representative Adelaide Grahalva, she was finally sworn in yesterday on Wednesday and became the 218th required signature on the discharge petition to force a floor vote for the full release of. of the Epstein files. Johnson says this vote will happen next week. During this process, Trump held an emergency meeting

Starting point is 03:27:42 in the Situation Room with Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche, and Cash Patel to convince Lauren Bobberts to take her name off the petition, which would then result in it not being complete and forcing the vote. They are certainly in a panic over this. The whole White House team is. This morning,

Starting point is 03:28:02 day, press secretary Carolyn Levitt put out an amazing post on X The Everything app, quote, if not for the Jeffrey Epstein story, CNN would be forced to talk about how Chuck Schumer and the Democrats got shellacked by President Trump and Republicans in the government shut down fight. It's clear this is another Democrat and mainstream media hoax fueled by fake outrage to distract when the president's wins. Republicans don't be fooled. President Trump will remain focused on making America affordable again. If not for the Jeffrey Epstein story. If not. If not, aren't we all saying that?

Starting point is 03:28:36 If the president wasn't a pedophile, then everyone would love him. If not for the child molestation, he'd be allowed to live in this neighborhood. So what about the Megan Kelly thing in terms of, in terms of Republicans reacting to this and trying to find a way to sort through. And some of them are manufacturing, like, consent, like Macon Kelly here and others, I think. think are quite ready to just throw Trump to the wolves, frankly. Yeah, there's a, so Megan Kelly, I'm not going to play the clip from you all because having to listen to Megan Kelly is. I've listened to four hours of Megan Kelly this week, Mia.

Starting point is 03:29:15 Yeah, let's know more. But she has this whole line about how she knows someone who's close to the case and has all the details. And that person thinks that, you know, her exact quote is, I think there's a difference, a difference between a 15-year-old and a five-year-old. I mean, she literally is talking about how, oh, he was into the, he wasn't into four or five-year-olds. he's talking about, she says this, and I quote, barely legal types, and then she says

Starting point is 03:29:35 14 or 15, which not legal. Just pause, pause, right there. 14, 15, not legal. I think there was a conversation to be had about the extent to which the barely legal, like, just turned 18 shit, is to a large extent a product of, like, American pedophile

Starting point is 03:29:51 culture and misogyny, but like, those are 14 and 15 year olds. And this is the, like, you know, this is the defense that these people are dragging out out for this, which is that, oh, well, he wasn't like literal like like five-year-olds so actually it's like they're they're doing the libertarian thing it's like he's into be a file or whatever the fuck i think a lot of this is also the result of like the q-and-on-brained idea that like they're trafficking four-year-olds and like no this

Starting point is 03:30:17 is mostly like really young teenagers that's mostly what these guys are into and i'ma kelly specifically was talking about epstein there's i've been really young they're 15 to 17 year old girls right that's the part of the problem is that a huge number of um of not just men, but largely men in this country, don't see 15 to 17-year-old girls as children? Which they are. That's really a problem. I'm thinking of an issue.

Starting point is 03:30:44 It's just incredible, like, just incredible structural and misogyny. That's just, yeah, and so that's what they're sort of trying to bake all of this stuff as now. And I guess we'll see whether it works or not, just because he has been being amped up. Yeah, I don't think this line from Megan Kelly is going to be very successful on a large scale of. But a fibophilia. I don't think it's, I don't think it's going to work. Her motivations for this are, I'm sure, not great. Now, you don't know that, Garrison.

Starting point is 03:31:12 And I think in some way she is pulling from this like a Q&on brain idea, right? That these are a whole bunch of like basically infants. Yeah. Well, what else do you want to talk about? Let's talk about January 6th and the terrorism. Sure, I love neither of those things. things. Garrison, you love terrorism.

Starting point is 03:31:36 I had a fun date. No, I honestly, I had a great January 6th. That's good. That was a really fun morning for me. That was a hoot of a day. Boy, howdy. When they breached the Capitol doors, great time. Well, Windows first.

Starting point is 03:31:49 But yeah. I think you mean when the FBI breached the Capitol doors, Robert? Sure, yes. So this all takes me to the substack of a guy named Rod Dreher. Rod is, he wouldn't call himself a fascist, but if you ever bring up, is this specific fascist from history bad? He'd say, well, not compared to the communists, they stopped, right? That's the kind of conservative that Rod is.

Starting point is 03:32:14 He's basically friends with Victor Orban. He's basically friends with Victor Orban. Yeah. Didn't he just write a piece called Are Women Ruining the Workplace? He's written several like that. The piece I'm talking about was one he came out with on November 10th called What I Saw in in Washington, and he was at a meeting with Vice President James

Starting point is 03:32:34 Daryl Vance, not what his name standsman. James Dolan, Vance. Yeah, James Dolan, Vance. That's a good James Dolan. Ah, you're a real New Yorker now, Gare. Are you pissed about the Knicks permanently? No. Basketball's too masculine for me. So he came out with this article

Starting point is 03:32:49 about this meeting that Vance had with Victor Orban and some other Republican luminaries. And for a little bit of context, Dreher is, again, you wouldn't call him an anti-Trumper, column a guy who thinks that Trump is going to doom the right and doom the right to fascism unless J.D. Vance can save them. He actually has a recent, his most recent column is basically J.D. Vance is the only person who can save the right wing from fascism. And he's a weird

Starting point is 03:33:13 dude who like reads a lot of Hanna Arendt, but absolutely does not understand her. But this article of his, based on this meeting, is useful for a couple of reasons. One that I'm sure Gare and I will talk about more detail later is Dreher estimates in here that 30 to 40 percent of the zoomers who are working for the Republican Party in D.C. are Groypers, aka fans of Holocaust denier and... Truke. Trueke. Yeah. Is that what you Ginzi kids are saying for truth, Garrison? Yeah, that's... Okay. Okay. That's truth, nuke. I can't keep track of that shit anymore. Truth nuke. Great. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Sure. Yeah, they're all groopers,

Starting point is 03:33:53 or at least 40% are. 30, 40%. And I actually, number one, he, Dreher, he's not someone that I think just makes up nonsense. I think he's like wrong because his brain is bad. But he provides some backup including interviews and conversations he had for this. And this is consistent with other information coming out of the Beltway.

Starting point is 03:34:13 I think he's probably pretty close to the accurate number here, right? 30 to 40% seems believable. Gare, I think you're more or less in the same area there. Garrison is 30% to 40% of Groype, yes. Yes, that's what I meant, James. Thank you for this.

Starting point is 03:34:28 The most charitable reading of my sentence there. Now, the thing that I thought was, the other thing that I thought was interesting from this article is because he's trying to talk about why the media, which he sees as an inherently left-ling organization, even though we just talked about all of the carrying water for Jeffrey Epstein while attacking trans people shit, they did. No, it's a right-wing slash liberal organization, I would agree. Yeah, you have to get over some of his aspects of phrasing. But he's talking about why

Starting point is 03:34:59 I, some of the reasons why he thinks that the institutions in our society, like Zoomers, do not trust them. And this is where I think he's on the money, because I think that the reason why so many Genzi Republicans, like Republican staffers are Groyper's, is what he gets at, which is that they're having the same problem as the rest of Gen Zee. They're just approaching it from a fascist standpoint, but they all are starting from the same point, which is, I'm fucked. My generation is fucked. Yeah. There's no jobs. I'm not going to own a house. The climate is screwed.

Starting point is 03:35:29 And they're blaming the Jews for it, but they're starting at the same plane. It's school shooter politics, right? The school shooter politics, yes. Some people understand this and then decide to do a school shooting. These guys decide to get jobs in Washington. Yes. But it's the same psyche behind the mechanism. Exactly right.

Starting point is 03:35:46 And I'm going to read a quote from Dreher's article, and then we'll move past him to the primary thing I wanted to talk about here. And this is him talking about, you know, why these zoomers don't trust the system and want to destroy everything. The institutions of our society, as they see it, have lied and lied and lied and still lie. They still lie in many ways about race, refusing to be honest about black crime. They lie about COVID. They lied about males and females, and they forced the insanity of gender ideology on us all.

Starting point is 03:36:10 The military lied about Iraq. The universities embrace—is it just the military? Yeah. Just the military rod. The universities embraced and enforced ideologies of lies. The Catholic Church lied about sexual abuse and the connection to the prevalence of sexually active gay priests. Is that the gay? Was that the problem?

Starting point is 03:36:24 Honeycoming institution. they lied about the benefits of mass migration and diversity. They lied about Trump and Russia. They sure didn't. Political parties and their corporate allies lie about what globalism would mean for ordinary people. The media have lied and they do lie about most things. This past weekend, everybody was talking about the new report in Blaze Media, alleging that the mysterious January 6th pipe bomber was in fact a former capital police officer.

Starting point is 03:36:46 The implications being that the whole event was orchestrated by the deep state to discredit Donald Trump. Maybe mainstream media are busy trying to validate this reporting on their own. If the Blaze has this wrong, they're going to be so. suit into oblivion, and so will all the other media who amplify a false charge. I can tell you that no, all I can tell you is that nobody in the MSM are talking about it as I write it, even though it is an explosive story. People were, in fact, talking about it. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:37:08 And in fact, before we could do this episode, the bulwark, which has a both a website with articles and is a podcast network, came up with an article by Will Somer, who used to write for the... He's a good journalist. Yeah, good journalist. We took a Bellinghat class together, I believe it was the post that he wrote for at the time.

Starting point is 03:37:30 He was like one of the leading Q&N experts for years. Yeah, he was doing the Daily Beast wasn't for a while. Yeah, Daily Beast is, I think, where I knew him from. And he wrote a really good article called the Blazes. Pipe Bomb Bombshell appears to bomb. And basically, Dreher says here, well, if the Blaze is wrong, they'll be soon to oblivion. And the short answer is, yeah, I think they have to be.

Starting point is 03:37:50 Because they absolutely named this lady in the Capitol Police to, to make a long story short, if you don't want to read the whole Blaze article, you can read the piece on the bulwark, you can read the sections of it, or you can type the link to the Blaze article into like Archive.org so you don't give them traffic if you want. It's not good. It's the entire, their entire claims that this particular woman, and I am not going to name this woman because I don't think she's the bomber. And I don't think you should name people as being a terrorist if you're not sure they

Starting point is 03:38:22 were. I will say that she's a woman and that she's a capital police officer, or at least now a former capital police officer, who is kind of insinuated by the blaze and has been absolutely taken up by the right wing media immediately since to be a, now she got poached by the CIA, right? And that's taken as like proof that she definitely did this. She's a security guard at the CIA's office. She's not in the CIA. I'm sorry, guys. She's a, she's a rent-a-cop for the CIA, which is, let's be fair, probably the highest rung of rent-a-cop. Like, you know, you're taking a step up as a rent-a-cop, but she's not out there overthrowing democracies yet.

Starting point is 03:39:06 I don't know, maybe they fast-track you once you're, let's see, they security can get out enough. But so the whole claim that the blaze is staking the reputation on, because if you're not paying attention to, like, info wars, well, not reputation, they're financials. because InfoWars currently owes like a billion and a half dollars for wrongly accusing people of having faked mass shootings and the deaths of their own children. So their argument that this lady has to be it is based on they have some old footage of her at like the jogging track and there's a couple of clips from the jogging trap they showed,

Starting point is 03:39:41 but they're claiming that this gate analysis that they did between the Capitol bomber and this woman is based on footage of her that they are not publishing publicly. That's good. So that you can verify it. but that they say is 94% and they talked to a gate analysis expert and he did a personal gate analysis and he said it had to be more like 98%.

Starting point is 03:39:58 So that means basically it definitely was her because gate analysis is for sure real and not one of the every kind of forensic science is a lie lies. Gate analysis is not even very good for buying shoes let alone convicting someone we have peer review data to show that you shouldn't use your running shoes of gate analysis

Starting point is 03:40:20 let alone fuck it. Yes, yes. There's many articles about how it may not be the future of the shoe industry. You certainly shouldn't be hinging your publication survival. I'm getting right

Starting point is 03:40:34 that somebody was a bomber. Incredible. This is just the latest attempt by the right to run this whole J6 false flag conspiracy, which is picking up a lot of steam. Like a few months ago, the FBI released some information

Starting point is 03:40:48 on how many agents they had in the area during January 6th. And this led many, many conservative commentators to believe, oh, look, the FBI just admitted that it was their agents that actually started the riot and was most of the, like, rowdy, rambunctious crap members. And no, the specific wording on the announcement or statement regarding the presence of agents at J6

Starting point is 03:41:11 was after the insurrection had already started and agents were sent there to keep it under control. That's what it was referring to. And Cash Patel released a statement days later, clarifying this. But of course, that doesn't pick up nearly as much traction as the original claims were. So this whole gate analysis thing is continuing on this whole conspiracy theory about how the FBI and the CIA staged all of January 6th to crush Trump and remove him from power. And probably warns of a future episode just on January 6th conspiracy theories that have propagated the past few. months. Yeah. Yeah. We probably, I mean, honestly, yes. But, but, okay, to continue with this,

Starting point is 03:41:56 so gate analysis was half of what their case lay on. The other half of the case was interviews with a couple of different people, primarily an FBI whistleblower, a former FBI agent who made a claim that, like, yeah, we, we tied the woman, this officer's neighbor to a vehicle that, like, picked up the bomber. This is not based on publicly available information. This is based on the statements made by former FBI agent Kyle Seraphim, who is now a right-wing media personality. Of course.

Starting point is 03:42:27 And we're just trusting that this guy, who is former FBI agent trying to rebrand himself as an influencer, is telling us the truth about all of this stuff that they're not presenting us with. This is kind of dressed up as OSENT, but they're not actually providing you with the information. No, there's no actual O-P. than source intelligence. You can't work back from their, because they're hiding a lot of stuff, right? There's a couple other things that Somer notes in his article here. To make their case against the former

Starting point is 03:42:56 Capitol Police officer, Baker, who's the author, and co-author Joseph H. Hanneman, focused on a comparison between the officer's gate, some of which was apparently captured in years-old footage of her playing soccer and footage of the pipe bomb such from the night of January 5th. Instead of using suspect footage released by the FBI, however, the Blaze claims it used footage from another source. The article doesn't name. Critically, the Blaze didn't release an act. actual video comparison or significant details of the gate analysis. Instead, it draws on the work of a man the Blaze called a video sleuth, a little-known ex-user named Armitas, whose online profile image is a picture from the

Starting point is 03:43:26 1998 role-playing video game, Zeno Gears. Hell yeah. Zeno Gears. Great Twinks in that video game. Yeah, you're not going to get sued into oblivion for this shit, the Blaze. I'm proud of you guys. I can't believe if the people who published Vance Bolter's probably last interview would do this. Yeah, shocking, shocking stuff.

Starting point is 03:43:48 Now, to be, again, totally fair here, Dreher does not treat this with any sort of critical thought whatsoever, but actually a bunch of the people critiquing this have been on the right. And I, where I partially agree with Dreher is I think it's a mistake that the mainstream media has not dedicated more effort to busting this immediately and to pointing out the weaknesses and stuff like gate analysis immediately out the gate. So it does kind of seem like they're ignoring it. I think they're largely, I think largely this isn't getting covered because it's so shady and bad and because it's dangerous to spread these kinds of claims about a person.

Starting point is 03:44:23 Sure. I mean, yeah, it's like, it's like the blaze. It's not even Fox News, right? There's already law enforcement stationed outside this woman's house because of the number of threats that she's received. Right. Right. Like, like, again, there's, she has ample claims for damages here. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:44:38 Yeah. So a couple of the people who have come after, one of them is, or after this article, one of them is Julie K. Kelly, who's a right-wing media figure, and is a major, like, force in the January 6th conspiracy theory world. And she is largely attacking the blaze because she's doing her own investigation into the who did the pipe bombing, right? So she's pointed out some very obvious problems. Why don't you post that other video you have, right? Why don't you show the evidence of the gate analysis, right? So she's been attacking this, as has Joe Hoff, who's co-founder of the Gateway Pundit.

Starting point is 03:45:11 Hell yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. Great stuff. So there's people on the right talking shit about this stuff. It's worth noting that when this initially came out, Glenn Beck spent days beforehand hyping it up and talking about how like this is the biggest, I think that he literally called it like the biggest conspiracy in American history maybe, which like Jesus Christ, dream smaller. Come on, dude. Yeah, but within like a day of the article actually coming out, the Blaze added an editor's note. But this is wrong.

Starting point is 03:45:42 Which is pretty damning. An earlier version of this story said it appeared the bombing suspect interacted with police. After publication, a congressional investigator with access to a camera angle that has not been made public, reached out and told Blaze News a person similarly attired to the suspected bomber who comes out of the alley and crosses the street towards the two capital police vehicles is not the same person as the hoodie clad pipe bomb suspect walking out of the alley just minutes earlier. Amazing. Wouldn't their gate analysis have shown that? Amazing work. Wouldn't you have known? that if gain analysis was real?

Starting point is 03:46:13 It's almost like you can't rely on gain analysis to identify individuals. Yeah, it's almost like this is all bullshit. Anyway, I largely did this just because fuck you, Rod Dreher. We covered this stupid-ass story. Will Somer covered this stupid stupid-ass story and we made fun of it.

Starting point is 03:46:29 Thank you, Will. Thank you to bulwark. This is what I've got. I've done. That Drear piece is also crazy and just in surreal surreal because of how much of it is like talking about how we, as in the right needs to like recalibrate how we discuss the the reality of like complete Jewish control over our media and how it's fine actually because a whole bunch of various like ethnicities

Starting point is 03:46:57 excel in various fields and that's not weird so it's not weird that Jews control all the media we shouldn't be worried about this and how how much of that piece feels like it could have been written in like the 1920s yes it's it's a it's a crazy time capsule works. Yep. Anyway, that's my opinions on the Trier substack piece. Anti-Semitism versus anti-Semitism. It's a great time.

Starting point is 03:47:21 I mean, sure. I mean, I would have a slightly more complicated analysis of the piece than just anti-Semitism because Trier approaches that issue really oddly. I don't think he's anti-Semitic, frankly. I don't think he thinks he's anti-Semitic. I don't think he thinks he is, yeah. But it's like, I think that there's a difference between what, he believes about himself

Starting point is 03:47:42 and what he's trying to do and what he is doing and yeah sure I mean I mean even in the way that the article's written and like a lot of it is yeah I mean attacking a certain type

Starting point is 03:47:52 of anti-semitism on the right well you guys know what Rod Dreher would hate other than an editor I think he would actually love some ads yeah yeah yeah yeah might

Starting point is 03:48:02 oh god all right we are back and uh we're going to do some very brief immigration stuff and then we'll play the song you've all been waiting for and be able to talk to you the united states conference of catholic bishops based based based yeah thank you get uh if you did a statement this week it's about the strongest condemnation you're going to see from this entity of anything in a critical realm, right? Pope Leo has not been solved on this issue. No, yeah, he is, and like we saw it, like with Bishop Farm in San Diego, right,

Starting point is 03:48:50 like who himself arrived as in what they call an unaccompanied minor, right, a child refugee. I'm going to read from the statement, quote, we are disturbed when we see among our people a climate of fear and anxiety around questions of profiling and immigration enforcement. We are saddened by the state of contemporary debate and the vilification of my We are concerned about the conditions in detention centres and the lack of access to pastoral care. We lament that some immigrants in the United States have arbitrarily lost their legal status. We are troubled by threats against the sanctity of houses of worship and the special nature of hospitals and schools.

Starting point is 03:49:24 We are grieved when we need parents who fear being detained when taking their children to school and when we try to console family members who have already been separated from their loved ones. This isn't a usual... Beast, beast, beast, beast, beast, beast. Garrison has got a crucifix, I guess. They haven't done this for like 12 years, right? Last time they did it about contraception, I'm not saying a Catholic church is an organization

Starting point is 03:49:49 that I agree with all the time. It's not. It's one that I disagree with most of the time. But I still think this is important, right? Like, this is an organization which has millions of followers in the United States. Many, many Catholics around the world. A lot of Catholics. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:50:06 This is an organization. which therefore we should pay attention to, right? And I think it is telling that, yeah, the woke pope has not stopped with this and that it seems like the vast majority of bishops in the United States are on his side. No, it's, it is pretty funny. We have like a never-trumper nominally conservative woke pope and the fact that he will not black down on this issue and has actually has a number of statements on this the past the past few weeks and not softly worded statements either.

Starting point is 03:50:35 Catholic priests have also been reasonably good on this issue Yeah It's important especially Because of how much these like weird Like fascist friendly trads Are using Catholicism As like a fashion statement

Starting point is 03:50:48 And J.D. Vance included Yeah, it's gonna say I'm vice president To have the actual church be like Pretty freaked out by that I think is good It'd be worse if they were leaning into it Which certainly some cardinals like want When they were doing their

Starting point is 03:51:04 Like, Pope's election. Well, if you look at the votes in this issue, right, like 216 votes in favor, five against and three abstentions. So among bishops, which is distinct from cardinals, like, this is almost universal, right? And yet, given that our vice president has made being an adult convert to Catholicism, a large part of his personality. Embarrassing. Yeah, this is, like, it is remarkable.

Starting point is 03:51:28 It's worth paying attention to. Also, I think when I talk to migrants, specifically, like, when I was in the Derry, and Gap talking to migrants, their faith is massively important to so many. Totally. And a lot of people, especially coming from South and Central America, will be Catholic, right? And that is what propels them through. And so for them to feel that the church has not abandoned them, it is important to them. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:51:51 The thing when I speak to people now who are here, the thing that they want more than anything is a priest to come to their hearing, to their meeting with them. That is what makes them feel safe. and so I am happy that the church is continuing to try and make them feel safe because yeah what what else are you going to do right yeah we're trying everything else and it's not working yeah i i defer to what will make the person being victimized feel better in basically all instances and if it's having a priest along then i'm glad the priest is there yeah and i am happy that this is something that can make them feel safer because you know critical support to

Starting point is 03:52:30 the catholic church yeah yeah very critical yeah what Well, emphasis on the critical part. I think the other thing is worth noting that this same conference also voted to have an official ban on any gender-affirming care at Catholic hospitals, which is like one in seven of all people in the U.S. get their care at Catholic hospitals because there's a million of them. Critical support. Yeah, like lots of, they're not. Yeah. Look, they're no Protestants, okay?

Starting point is 03:52:59 It does feel bad to have so much Catholic praise on the show. But, you know, I will swallow my Protestant prize here. Yeah, I'm neither a Catholic or a Protestant, but I'm glad this is happening. You're British. Yes. So we straddle the two. Do we do Catholicism without popes? I think we should have popes without Catholicism.

Starting point is 03:53:23 See, that's interesting, Robert. That's an interesting idea. That's Discordianism. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, that's kind of the least interesting version. a real kind of non-Catholic, like, clerical class. Anyway, I'm going to put this down in my sci-fi novel folder.

Starting point is 03:53:40 You know, isn't stockbrokers a forum of, you know, aren't... Just fade them out. Fade them out. Adam, just gradually reduced the volume. Okay, we're going to get... We're back to immigration. We did learn this week that the Department of Homeland Security secretly and illegally kept domestic data

Starting point is 03:53:57 on 900 Chicago land residents under Biden. Just in case... and anyone was wondering what they were doing before people started paying attention to them. They also, quote, irrevocably destroyed video from inside of the Broadview, which is an Icedentian facility in Chicago land. Yeah, of course they did.

Starting point is 03:54:15 I'm not shocked by that, I will say. Like, I would have been shocked if that had happened under a previous administration, put it that way. Like, it's not massively out of character for them to be incompetent at soaring and this kind of thing. And Ken Paxton has attempted to sue Harris County a place in Texas for donating to non-profits to provide legal aid to migrants. He has some justification to this, which is clear to Chris, but I'm just going to name

Starting point is 03:54:44 a few of the NGOs here. Galveston-Houston Immigrant Representation Project, Kids in Needed Defense, Justice for All Immigants, Bariases, and Baker Ripley. Yeah. And this does, I think, show part of the strategy, which we say, saw, and we have seen since 2018, right? Like, you'll remember that lots of NGO volunteers in 2018 were placed on a watch list, as were many journalists for crossing to cover the migrant car event.

Starting point is 03:55:11 But this idea that the NGOs are, quote, aiding and abetting is a phrase you always see, right? Like, that somehow people would have come here if it wasn't for NGOs. Often this takes on a specific form of blaming one NGO, which is highest or He has Hebrew immigrant aid society right and we saw you one guess as to why they blame that one yeah uh it's like repeat guest of the show anti-semitism coming back again yeah which resulted directly in in the in the tree of life shooting right like this is of that same intellectual family of thought i guess is what i will say it's ludicrous people come here because their lives are not livable uh where they're at there that's all they go play play the song

Starting point is 03:56:01 Rocky Casma Rocky Casper Terry is the lack it Rocky Casper All right So there is actually A surprising amount of tariff news

Starting point is 03:56:20 All right The tariff rebate checks Are we getting tariff rebate checks? I think probably not So what is this Trump started talking about this on November 8th on true socials per the QSA today.

Starting point is 03:56:34 Be trothed. I refuse to call it truth. I am recommending to Senate Republicans that the hundreds of billions of dollars the hundreds of billions are capitalized for reasons that are baffling, currently being sent to money-sucking insurance companies in order to save the bad health care

Starting point is 03:56:51 provided by Obamacare be directly sent to the people so that they can purchase their own health care, their own much better health care. and so originally this was going to be like a $2,000 thing to your health savings account from tariff proceeds or something and then the second time he stopped talking about the health savings account stuff and he was just saying a $2,000 check. The USA Today that piece notes that the Secretary of the Treasury,

Starting point is 03:57:17 Scott Bessett said on ABC News on November 9th, which was Sunday that Trump's proposed tariff dividend quote could come in a lot of forms, adding it could just be the tax decreases that we are seeing on the president's agenda. No tax on tips. No tax on overtime. No tax of Social Security, deductibility of auto loans, he said. So those are substantial deductions that are being financed the tax bill. So he apparently hadn't heard any of this is what it seems like. And then a few days later, this was yesterday on Wednesday the 12th, Caroline Levitt, who's the ghoulish press secretary,

Starting point is 03:57:55 said that Trump is, quote, committed to the payments. So who knows, You can't call her ghoulish just because she's a 27-year woman who looks like that, Mia. That's not cool. Hey, you know, we're not going to do this. But she, no, she is ghoulish not because she looks like she's 40. And she doesn't look kind of guile. She looks like a ghoul is why she is. No, but like she also acts like a ghoul constantly, which is the actual thing that she is ghoulish for, right?

Starting point is 03:58:22 Every press secretary I've ever seen has made me so mad. like the job of a press secretary is infuriating yeah remember the saki bombs well also like they've never been good they also did used to be more normal than this like they didn't used to be this unhinged

Starting point is 03:58:40 the Biden admin didn't bring them back I feel like like the first Trump had been moved to him in a certain way no the Biden admin people run hitch too it's just awful terrible stuff didn't used to be like this one of the few things I'll ever say that anyway

Starting point is 03:58:53 as you were saying yeah so so she said that Trump is committed to the payments. I, again, I don't think we're going to see this. Probably not. Definitely don't plan on having an extra $2,000. I think he's committed to the payments as much

Starting point is 03:59:09 as he has his like first or second wife. Yeah, which is not much. So the second, the second incredibly important piece of tariff news is the pasta tariffs. The Department of Commerce is opposing 107% pasta tariffs on imported Italian pasta.

Starting point is 03:59:24 No! No! No! Garrison, it's fine. Macaronian cheese is still available. You can still get your Mac. You know, it's okay. So, as the Guardian points out, most pasta in the U.S. is made in the U.S.

Starting point is 03:59:41 So it's not really affected by those tariffs. Not the ones I buy. Well, hold on, hold on. Let me, allow me to finish the sentence, Garrison. I will address your concerns. Oh. So it's mostly just gluten, it's mostly gluten-free. pasta and also like imported fancy pasta which is like nice pasta well fancy is a bit of

Starting point is 04:00:01 yeah okay it's like two dollars more okay yeah attack some pretension you know and so this but this sucks for people who like pasta that's good and also for people who are allergic to gluten or who just are trying to reduce the amount of gluten they're eating for like diabetic reasons etc etc that all really sucks in that same piece in that same guardian piece the unbelievably named Scott Ketchum who is the founder of like an artisal artisanal

Starting point is 04:00:27 Ketchum's a real last name that's why the Pokemon game is believable Ketchum's a person I know Scott Ketchum I don't understand why Ketchum is funny Why is Ketchum funny Did you not play the Pokemon?

Starting point is 04:00:42 Did you two No Ketchum and also it's so close to being Ketchup and I think about Okay thinking about Italian Postert whatever

Starting point is 04:00:53 on Italian pasta. Interesting. No, but do you know who does do this? Chinese hotels in 2009, a thing I discovered when they, for some reason, fed us, tried to feed us American food instead of feeding us Chinese food. And, dear God, awful. That's sweet. Zero and a test. That's sweet.

Starting point is 04:01:09 My favorite thing in any foreign country is when they're like, I know what you want. American food. You came to Greece to eat at TGI Fridays, didn't you? Burger is all over Berlin. Burger's the new age. Burger's not American. from Hamburg, right?

Starting point is 04:01:24 It is now. I feel like he'd be disappointed, Garrison, if you knew how many people in continental Europe are eating pasta and ketchup on a daily basis. We used to ground sugar on it. Yeah, Europeans are obviously sick. Yeah. You've been to Belgium.

Starting point is 04:01:39 That's wrong. I have. Yeah. There you go. Okay, locking back in, locking back in on the pot of tariff. The anarchist cafe was closed. It was 2 p.m. those lazy fucks. I swear to God.

Starting point is 04:01:49 Look at the conditions that I have to do with. Every time I mentioned inflation. Now come the inflation jokes. Every time I'm trying to finish it as a pasta. Oh, God. Okay. Finishing this. Scott Ketchum agrees that the manufacturers will, quote,

Starting point is 04:02:03 take advantage of the news and slightly raise their prices. That's just business, he said. So this actually probably will increase pasta prices across the board because they'll use this as a justification for raising prices. Canonically, how old is Ash Ketchum? I'm trying to work out of this as a sibling. He's like 13. I think he's like 12 in 19.

Starting point is 04:02:23 He's been, like, 13 for... No, but he's been 13 for his entire life. So we can think siblings more than parents. Jeffrey Epstein's dream. Yeah. And okay, Ash Cochin's brother, put it in the law. Oh, my God. Okay, okay.

Starting point is 04:02:36 Two more things. Two more things we've got to get there. I swear to God. Okay, one, 50-year mortgage. Trump has become obsessed with the idea of 50-year mortgages. Just, an idea is so unhinged. I have even seen any Republicans talk about it positively. The mortgage,

Starting point is 04:02:53 industry is like, don't do this. This is a bad idea. I'm not going to read the full paragraph I had here from CNN, but, you know, CNN did a very basic calculation of, instead of a 30-year fixed mortgage, a 50-year fixed mortgage. So basically their calculation on like a $450,000 house was that you would save about $300 a month technically, but over the course of the loan, instead of spending about $550,000 in interest, you would spend a million dollars in interest. that rules. That rules. That's how we save money by giving half a million dollars to the bank. Well, hey, you're not even talking about the 15-year auto loans.

Starting point is 04:03:31 Yeah. It's insane. Everyone who buys IKEA can trust that it will keep working for 15 years. He's going to say, his house isn't lasting 50 years. They're made of like cardboard. Right? Like, they're just paying more than twice the value of the house in interest. Yeah.

Starting point is 04:03:50 Make America affordable. again. Yeah. Okay. Unbelievable. And then finally, I want to close with what is actually going on with the jobs and inflation numbers for October? Because I think people are getting a lot of very bad information about this. I mean, and it's not their fault. It's, again, because...

Starting point is 04:04:05 The Democrat shutdown made it impossible to get any reliable data. So now we can never have data ever again. Yeah. So, okay, so let's go into, like, what is actually going on here? So on Wednesday, Caroline Levitt said that we might not ever get October

Starting point is 04:04:21 the October of Jobs and Inflation data. Oops. So, however, comma, I'm sure this number would have been fine, comma. The spirit Halloween bump would have been huge. Comma. On Thursday, National Economic Council Director, Kevin Hassett, who, by the way, is the guy

Starting point is 04:04:37 whose whole thing is that he wants to impose taxes on holding U.S. bonds, the worst. He said, maybe the only idea I've ever seen. Well, I don't know if that's the 50-year mortgage. Astonishingly bad ideas. But he said, on Fox News, this is today as day of recording, said on Fox News that we're going to get some of the data. But the data we're supposed to get is very weird. Now, so the September data we're

Starting point is 04:05:01 supposed to get next week, because that was already recorded before the government. Right. Yeah. And there is legitimately, even in a sort of not, if a normal Bureau of Labor Statistics was trying to get these statistics out, it would be a little difficult for them. However, comma, we're only getting the jobs added numbers and not the job lost numbers. Oh, no. Divides only.

Starting point is 04:05:26 What a great strategy. So yeah, I'm sure that number is fine. I'm sure it's not negative 70,000 jobs or something. Yeah, right. And, you know, apparently that's because the survey, the collected information never went out and I, I mean, it probably didn't

Starting point is 04:05:42 because of the shutdown, but also, like, you could work this out. They're just not doing it. We talked a few months ago about Trump's attempt to take over the Bureau of Labor Statistics, with his attempt to install the hideously incompetent Heritage Foundation economist, and I use that term very loosely here, E.J. and Tony, and Trump was actually forced to pull back on installing this guy. He's ahead of Bureau of Labor Statistics, so it's being run by the interim head and has been

Starting point is 04:06:08 for a long time now, but it seems like, A, there's conflicting information going out, and B, it does seem like Trump has been able to get a decent amount of control over the Bureau of labor statistics, which is supposed to be a nonpartisan body that just releases the data because everyone in the entire capitalist economy relies on it. And it is possible that this is, that, that we have already gotten our last unrigged, like, real labor statistics reports. I mean, I can't confirm that they're straight up breaking it. And it's also possible that, oh, well, this wasn't the product of that. And we are going to get some of the data. Like, we are supposed to get inflation numbers. But it's not good.

Starting point is 04:06:47 Oops. Well, to end on some good news, I guess. On Monday, the Supreme Court rejected a call to overturn or here its previous ruling on legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide. So this is where, this is where they're, this is where they're drawing the line right now is this. I think, I think I did predict this a few months ago in which people got a little bit mad at me for saying that I didn't think they were going to pick this one up. Another W in the Gere column. But I think it is fairly interesting that this is the point in which they're like, nah, nah, it's not worth it.

Starting point is 04:07:27 Like this is more settled to them than even the abortion thing was, I think. I think some of the general economic issues shows that there's not a real desire for pushing on this right now based on, you know, gestures broadly at other economy stuff. And some of the, some of the anti-woke fuel. may be running out as the as the economic situation becomes more and more dire. Dyer, right?

Starting point is 04:07:53 Dyer's a good word. How much longer can the Republicans just scream about trans people as they're ruining the economy? Do you think that's going to still work for them in 2026? Maybe not. They might be scared that they've put all of their eggs in this whole anti-wilic culture basket

Starting point is 04:08:07 and now that they're in charge and the country's still getting worse, they're like, well, I wonder if we can replay that card again or not. as a final economy note I want to note that SoftBank sold all of their shares

Starting point is 04:08:19 in NVIDIA $5 billion of Nvidia share Don't worry about it It's part of regular Stock rotation It's fine These are the

Starting point is 04:08:26 biggest rubes Who have ever existed Have gotten rid of all of their Diffest of shits These are These are the We work guys These are the guys Hold in the bag

Starting point is 04:08:38 For Wework Yes Which I mean Does that mean Does that mean that they're getting out too early of AI, or does it mean that they're hesitant, they're gun-shy enough that they got out just in time? We'll see. We can say. Yeah.

Starting point is 04:08:54 All right. We reported the news. Gerson, I'm stealing your line this week. Why? We all stole that line from a terrible man. You haven't seen the newsroom. Nope. It's stolen valor.

Starting point is 04:09:04 Yep. Great show. I would love a new season of the newsroom where he works for some, like, bullshit, like, internet news company. He's like, he's like a sub-stacker, and he has like a home studio. Oh, all that'd be good. He does, it's top ten lists constantly. Yeah. God, I would love that. I would love a new season.

Starting point is 04:09:25 He's super bigoted, but they don't ever make a direct point of it. It just becomes like subtly caught obvious that like, oh, wow, this is a guy who's bought into some weird conspiracy theories. Sure. I was thinking, because I mentioned it came out the same year as true detective, I would like a new season of the newsroom. that's a crossover with the first season of true detective where we get Woody Harrelson

Starting point is 04:09:47 and we get that British lady all in the same room together it'll be great. They would be a nasty combo imagine how much fucked up shit they could get up to. Oh, it would be awful. It would be awful. Hell yeah. Well, we're not even on the air anymore. Oh, no, we're still on the air.

Starting point is 04:10:03 Well, I stopped recording. We reported the news. We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.

Starting point is 04:10:34 Thanks for listening. Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for one another. It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and love within each other. I'm Elia Connie, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope. I've always wanted us to have therapy, so this is such a beautiful opportunity. Listen to Season 2 of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The show was ahead of its time to represent a lot.

Starting point is 04:11:10 a black family in ways the television hadn't shown before. Exactly. It's Telma Hopkins, also known as Aunt Rachel. And I'm Kelly Williams or Laura Winslow. On our podcast, welcome to the family with Telma and Kelly. We're re-watching every episode of Family Matters. We'll share behind-the-scenes stories

Starting point is 04:11:26 about making the show. Yeah, we'll even bring in some special guests to spill some tea. Listen to Welcome to the Family with Telma and Kelly on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Kyle McLaughlin. You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City, or just the Internet stand.

Starting point is 04:11:45 I have a new podcast called What Are We Even Doing, where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture. Each week, I invite someone fascinating to join me to talk about navigating this high-speed roller coaster we call reality. Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday, and let's get weird together in a good way. Listen to what are we even doing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ed Helms host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw-ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode. 32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop?

Starting point is 04:12:29 What? Yeah, it's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Shearer, Angela and Jenna. Kroll. Jordan, Klepper, listen to season four of Snafoo with Ed Helms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart

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Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 208

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