Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 216

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Starting point is 00:02:30 episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome to Knappi here, a podcast where so many things are happening here that we frankly have worn out the bit about trying to use this as our introduction. I am your host, Bea Wong, one of the many, many, many, many, many crises that are unfolding in this country right now is a rolling ethnic cleansing carried out by ICE in Border Patrol with the assistance of the cops. And we have talked about this from a lot of angles.

Starting point is 00:03:23 But a thing I want to sort of draw attention back to in this moment with. there's increased attention and scrutiny from truly a series of really hideous ice shootings is what it's like to be in detention right now and how possibly people can be gotten out of detention? And with me to talk about something that I feel like I can't even describe as the horrors because it's simply worse than that is Ellie Bell, who is a community organizer does many things, wears many hats. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Hello. I'm Ellie. And the reason I am here right now for this specific podcast conversation is that I am on a team that is trying to help many immigrants, but one in particular that I will be talking about tonight,

Starting point is 00:04:23 Al Barrow, who is a father and a husband and is currently detained in an ICE detention center in Indiana after being transferred from his home in Chicago. And, you know, we are trying to get him out and to get his family's story out there and his story out there. And, you know, among many other things that ICE is doing in the way that fits into all of that, that's what I am here to talk about. today. Yeah, so let's begin. So I guess one thing that I want to sort of lead off with here is obviously the sort of the most intense ice repression and raids have shifted to places like Minneapolis right now. I mean, who knows as you're listening to this, maybe they've pivoted it to another place. I don't know. Everything is moving so unbelievably fast and horribly. But also,

Starting point is 00:05:21 raids are still continuing in the places where ICE has nominally pulled out. Now, the frequency of those raids has decreased because they simply don't have the personnel to run these kind of, I don't know, they describe it as operational tempo. I describe it as they don't have the people to kidnap this many people at once. They can't kidnap or kill us all. Yeah, which, you know, not enormously happy to see people chanting that here. I have a bunch of visceral memories of the last two times that I saw people. chancing that and didn't go great. So let's not go on the like Sudan 2019 tangent.

Starting point is 00:05:58 Yeah. Actually, no, no, sorry. Sorry, I am wrong. The Sudan one was we are not afraid to die, which is in some week bleaker. There's, there's so much, there's so much history packed in here. Moving to the presence of, you know, our version of the ethnic cleansing, can you go to sort of the start of this and talk about what the specific raid here looked like. Yeah. So, I mean, I think I want to zoom out for a moment before I get into the specifics of what happened with this man, this father and husband and his family and then get into it. But, you know, as I'm sure, you know, we are, we are all talking about we are seeing ice escalating their tactics.

Starting point is 00:06:51 in just an egregious way. They killed a woman in poor blood and just executed her in the street the other day. Yep. René and Good. Now, of course, this is not the first or only person that they've killed recently.

Starting point is 00:07:06 It's one of many. I think there are now 11. It might be 12. The number just keeps rising every day. Yeah. So we still don't have, I think, very good information about what happened,

Starting point is 00:07:16 but literally the next day in Portland, someone, either ICE or Border Patrol, At the time I'm recording this, it's Tuesday the 13th. We still don't know whether it was ice or Burdenville, but someone shot two people in Portland. So, yeah. And I think they're being charged right now for terrorism because this is just what happens now. Yeah. These are all connected. But, but, you know, we know that there are, I believe there's been, it was nine, two days ago. Then it now it's like 11 or 12. It just keeps rising the number of people that we know of. I want to be really. clear that we know of. And as you said, we don't have really data on this. We do not have correct data on this, which is also an intentional tool of the state to obscure what is happening. But there are so many people who have been killed by ICE. And those are the ones that we know of, you know, since let's say in the last two or three months, there are so many more. There are so many people missing from alligator Alcatraz. What we saw happen in Minneapolis last week is

Starting point is 00:08:20 horrendous. And, you know, the same way that Al Barrow, who I am part of this team trying to help get him out of detention, he did nothing wrong. He has had no criminal activity. There was nothing to warrant the excuse that he must be detained or treated violently. It's the same as how Renee did nothing wrong and nothing to deserve being murdered. He was witnessing. He was witnessing and being there for her neighbors and she was sitting there in her car and that is what we know. But her murder,

Starting point is 00:08:59 the same way that these raids and everything going on, it's an escalation tactic used by ICE that's part of deep-rooted old school fascist and authoritarian measures to test what they can get away with. While people remain complacent in times of genocide and ethnic cleansing and for societal upheaval, you know, they just want to see what they can get away with and how much control they can exercise. So that being said, to get into what happened to Alberto and his wife is they are in Chicago and they've been there for a little over a year since they came here

Starting point is 00:09:39 to seek asylum and they were first in a shelter and then they finally were able to get the work they needed to have a home with their three kids. You know, I want to be really explicit that this person is a father, a husband, who has other family members here who look up to him, who he is a father figure or an uncle too. He is a community figure and a leader after he was taken, you know, I was told by a family friend who is part of the team that I'm working with. They told me that the women in the neighborhood, the other, like, immigrant women who all, like, work together and know each other, called him a pen to Dios, like, a loving term for someone who is just, like, a community member, like a shining beacon in a community.

Starting point is 00:10:35 And that is, that is who he is. And I also really want to emphasize that it wouldn't really matter if that wasn't who he was. and if he was somehow, quote unquote, lesser than that, or not a saint, because there's no such thing as, like, a good or bad immigrant. Nobody deserves to be treated this inhumanely. Unless, of course, you're a fascist. Then I think, you know, fair game. Hey, look, I'm going to put my foot down there and say,

Starting point is 00:11:05 we are more than capable of dealing with fascists internally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can simply hold the line on no deportations and simply deal with them. I believe in us. But so what happened was, it was early, early morning, the morning of Monday, December 29. Okay?

Starting point is 00:11:25 It's officially been two weeks since this happened. Monday, December 29th, it's like somewhere between maybe 5 and 6 a.m. 6.30. It's still dark out. He and his wife, whose name I'm not going to use

Starting point is 00:11:39 to protect her anonymity and her identity, but he and his wife got into their car. and the windows were rolled down the slightest bit. They were getting in their car to drive to work so that then she could go back home and be with her kids after taking him to work. And I want to be really explicit that we know that when ICE agents came to do this raid, they didn't have their names when they approached them.

Starting point is 00:12:09 They didn't know anything about them until they took them in. in the Chicago area, you know, you can talk about this a little if you want, but ICE has to have a warrant for the people they're picking up. They can't just pick up anyone based on the NAVA consent decree, which was just extended by the appeals court. We know that in Chicago, this is something that has been continuously happening. Yeah. And as we look at this from a broader context,

Starting point is 00:12:31 they go after non-white people kidnap them and ask questions later just because they think no one is going to care. Yeah. And part of the reason that I'm talking about all of this is, because I want to be very clear that people are watching, people care, and more people need to be watching, and more people need to care when it happens to people who are not white. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:54 Not just white women, because obviously Renee's murder is horrific. And I saw her be able to raise $1.4 million in less than a day. And Albeiro's campaign has been at $14,000 for more than a week. And we can't raise more money because people have so much more. sympathy and empathy for white people. And that is actually so tied into why ICE does the things they do because of that same whiteness, that same white supremacy, where they think we can do whatever we want to

Starting point is 00:13:27 immigrants and brown people who's going to care. Yeah. And that is one of the major constituent elements of this entire, like, rolling ethnic cleansing, is that, you know, and this has been a thing in Chicago, and like, since the raids really kicked, off is that every fucking day someone just disappears and everyone just goes about their lives. Absolutely

Starting point is 00:13:50 and they count on us to do that and they count on us to not be paying enough attention that we can't keep track of how shitty their data is and how inconsistent their data is and all of the numbers we don't

Starting point is 00:14:06 have. Yeah. Well, and the other thing they're relying on is they're relying on they're not being any attempt to stop them. Absolutely. What they're relying on is, you know, once they grab someone, everyone just going, okay, well, this is a statistic counting up on a counter and not this is a life that needs to be fought for. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:14:27 And that is why I find it so important and why I am doing the work that I am doing alongside everyone else who's doing this kind of work to uplift stories and tell them, because they can't be told by the immigrants themselves right now because they're being tortured inside detention. And it's so crucial for people to understand that, like, these are not numbers, these are not just names on a page. These are real people's lives. This is a real man whose three children,

Starting point is 00:15:01 whose three young children, have now gone to bed without him every night for two weeks. they don't know where their dad is. They don't know why he's not there. Yeah. They don't know why he's apparently being tortured. They just know that their dad isn't there. And I need people to understand, you know, think about.

Starting point is 00:15:25 Can you imagine? Can you imagine being away from your family for two weeks and counting, not knowing when you're going to come back, if you're going to come back, if you're going to die in detention, can you imagine being the child of someone? And a lot of people don't have to imagine. I'm saying this for like, you know, white people

Starting point is 00:15:47 and privileged people who don't have to think about these things or can get away with just going about business as usual because there are a lot of us who have immigrant family and have loved ones who this has been done to. And we don't get to go about our days, business as usual, because it's just not possible. It's just not possible. It would be like asking me to go about my life business as usual

Starting point is 00:16:17 when my family in Lebanon and Palestine are being bought. Yeah. Like it's not possible. It is not possible. All of these things are connected. Our lives are connected. And we owe it to each other to pay attention and to witness, especially because we are seeing that they will kill you.

Starting point is 00:16:37 for paying attention and witnessing. Because they don't want you to be able to exercise that right. Yeah. Well, and, you know, the secondary thing, and this is something that's been pretty well known for a very long time, is that the more of you that there are at a thing, the less likely they are to kill you.

Starting point is 00:16:57 Yeah. And this has been a thing with, you know, US police killings of protest forever, which is the U.S. doesn't, like, fire regular bullets into crowds because it's a terrible idea. It's how you get uprisings, right? Like, you know, I mean, I say this on the show all the time.

Starting point is 00:17:11 This is how the Mexican government lost control of the city of Wohaka. Like, they literally accidentally started like a pseudo-anarchist revolution in that city by doing that, right? So normally what they do is they pick off people when they're on their own. I'm going to be totally honest. I kind of wish that the government would make a ridiculous mistake right now that lends itself to people being able to get. justice. That's all I'll say. I'm not going to give specifics. But I mean, you know, but it's also, the other thing I'll say about that, right, is like whether or not they get away with this is also up to us. It is. It absolutely is. And that is why I say we owe each other everything and we owe each other

Starting point is 00:17:54 witnessing because the thing is the job of telling these stories of trying to help get people vulnerable, vulnerable people out of detention is also falling to a select few people who are the most vulnerable already and who have things on the line and things we're risking to do this because we know it's the right thing. And there are so many people with so much privilege

Starting point is 00:18:25 who could be doing something, whether it's really, really small, like donating $5, or sharing someone's story or calling Congress to have them pressure ice to let immigrants out, whatever it is that you could be doing, there are so many people who are not doing that. And when there are so many people who are not doing any of the labor, all of that labor gets distributed so unevenly among a few people. You know, I always think about the, what is it, James Baldwin quote,

Starting point is 00:19:00 about how it is the job of, you know, like a few people. It's only a few people on this earth who are like doing the job of like loving people. Well, I'm completely butchering it right now because it's late at night and I, you know, can't think of it. But it's it's something like that. And I think about that all the time and something that I'm thinking about right now a lot and having a lot of conversations, mostly with white people about is, hey, you need to start doing something. because you have a lot of privilege that you're not utilizing. And when you don't utilize it,

Starting point is 00:19:35 you actually are doing a lot of harm, not in necessarily the same way that the ICE agents are, but you're still kind of capitulating to what they want you to do by putting all of this labor on vulnerable people who have so much to lose and so much to risk. And we can't afford to burn out constantly because we don't have the support and the more equitable division of labor that's needed.

Starting point is 00:20:04 Like, we need everyone. We need everyone who can possibly do anything, whether that's putting your bodies on the line in person or if you're a disabled person and you're in bed and you can post something online or you can tell someone. Like, we need to activate our community networks for each other. Yeah, and there's also a lot of sort of logistical stuff. You know, I mean, there's like the old line about the army that like five or ten to one like logistics people for every like person who's out on the front.

Starting point is 00:20:38 And that's also the way that or if you're going to have an organizing thing that works, there's a massive sort of logistical tail behind everyone who's out doing stuff. Absolutely right. You need, you need safety people too. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff to be done. I'll finish telling the story of what happens to Albero too because. I want to, you know, center that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:09 Because again, you know, this is a, this is a community issue and this is a community member who is missing now who can't do his part as a part of a whole community because he has, he's been taken. And, like, when he was taken, they had guns. They had one pointed right at his wife. Yeah. He was saying, you know, they were saying, we're not resisting. but they

Starting point is 00:21:36 kept dangling on the car window and they reached inside the car window and they like, he and his wife emphasized that they were just going to work, they weren't doing anything. And ICE didn't care. They see a non-white person

Starting point is 00:21:49 and they grow hungry for violence. And after detaining her, they asked her to sign a document so that she could go get for kids. She refused because she didn't trust them. And she told them that she wasn't going to sign anything. And then later they found out, I think the lawyers found out that what it was

Starting point is 00:22:03 is that they were, giving her a voluntary deportation paper for the whole family. And that level... They do this all the time. They do this all the time. That level of deceit and trickery is just horrible because they did it. They gave it to her in English and she doesn't speak English. They thought they could just get her to sign it to get them out.

Starting point is 00:22:25 Yeah. This is being run by like the same people who are banging doors down. and just going into houses in Minneapolis. Yeah. It's all connected. They use the same tactics of violence and fear mongering. And it's terrible. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:50 And I mean, they've been moving personnel around. So, like, there's, like, a non-zero chance. It was literally the same person. Yeah. Like, that person could be in Minneapolis now. We don't know. Right. And this has become the sort of background noise of American life.

Starting point is 00:23:04 And it used to fucking not be the background noise because they're fucking grabbing people out of cars. It shouldn't be. I mean, every day I see people post some type of video on TikTok or Instagram Reels or Twitter or Blue Sky. Like, I just see people, everyday people post, God, you know, it feels so horrific to watch all of this happen. have to go to a nine to five. And I have empathy for that, especially as someone who does community organizing. And I mean, I think there is a lot of sacrifice. I know there's a lot of sacrifice in the types of things that I do. And there's also a lot of privilege in the fact that I even have community and loved ones who help me to pay my rent so that,

Starting point is 00:24:04 I can do this kind of organizing without worrying about not having shelter. And it's like we were saying before we, you know, started the recording. Like, I take it very seriously that I need to rest and I need to feed myself and I need to take care of myself because rest is not resistance, but me getting the rest that I need and the care that I need allows me to resist in a way that helps someone else to get free. And that's like what we all need to be doing for each other. I'm just going to say this because, you know, there used to be a thing people would do.

Starting point is 00:24:44 Whenever there is a large social upheaval. It was called the occupation of the factories. Yeah. You could go read Bella Testa writing about it in like 1921. Very old thing. See, the Seattle General Strike was like the most famous example of people doing this in the U.S. But it was like, okay, so there's some shit going on.

Starting point is 00:25:01 we need to stop something from happening. So we are going to take over our workplaces and run the parts of it that need to be run so that people can get food and then otherwise we're not. Otherwise, we're just going to heat control. You don't actually just have to go to your 9 to 5. The people in Seattle, those people didn't know what a television was. Wow. And they were able to do this.

Starting point is 00:25:21 If you showed one of the people in like in like the Seattle like 1919 general strike people who had who did this. Like if you showed them a computer, they would have a heart attack. and they did this. So I believe in all of you. You have seen things that would have obliterated these people's minds. I have like a slightly different take.

Starting point is 00:25:42 I don't know if this is like a hot take or a cold take or a lukewarm take. But my perspective is one, who said that you just have to go to your nine to five while you watch all of this happen? Who said that? You are saying, oh, I have to do that.

Starting point is 00:26:00 that. No one is actually making you do that. The consequences of that are that if you don't go to your nine to five or you take a sick day or something, you might get fired and you might be in a similarly vulnerable position to someone whose life is already on the line. But if we all stood in solidarity with each other, that would be less dangerous. Like if we chose each other over capitalism, that would be so radical. But, like, if we chose each other over capitalism, that would be so radical. But that's my take. There are not enough cops to evict us all. There simply aren't.

Starting point is 00:26:37 There really just aren't. I think that people forget or conveniently compartmentalize the truth that we as a collective, when we band together, when we refuse to participate in individualism, the ways that they want us to, we are so powerful. And I think that that scares people because that's a lot of responsibility. But again, that's really only so much responsibility

Starting point is 00:27:09 if you see yourself as an individual as opposed to part of a collective. If you see yourself as bearing a piece of responsibility as part of a collective, the same way that ants all move in a colony and carry like a piece of bread together, maybe you wouldn't feel so much overwhelmed because you would understand

Starting point is 00:27:33 that we are in this together. And I think that we really owe that to each other to reframe that in our minds and in our nervous systems as well so that we can just like maybe shut up and show up. Yeah, now speaking of showing up, okay, we're locking back on here. We're locking in.

Starting point is 00:27:55 We're locking the fuck in. we can do this, I believe in us. So going back, I guess, from the sort of macro perspective to the micro-individual perspective of the exact specific ways that one individual person gets treated. Totally. So, sure, locking back into what is happening on a more micro-level, giving an example of how ICE is de-heas,

Starting point is 00:28:27 humanizing immigrants in detention, whether they are here, quote unquote, illegally or not. Albero is not here illegally. He's going through the asylum process. When the immigration attorneys on our organizing team spoke with Albeiro and specifically asked about his conditions at Fay County, he said that, and granted, this, I believe, was sometime in the last week. I think they haven't spoken to him in maybe a week. It's been hard to.

Starting point is 00:29:00 But when they asked about his conditions, he said that he had all the basics, is now being given three meals a day and was at least at that point being administered medication. We don't have very good context and accurate data on how often that's actually been happening. He has a severe seizure disorder. Yeah. And he requires medication to be administered.

Starting point is 00:29:25 at least, I think, twice a day. And even one missed dose can be fatal. It's been a while since they've been able to talk. I do know that he checks in with his family and a family friend every morning, only briefly. I spoke to them just before this call to get any updated information. There was a day this week where he didn't text first thing in the morning and we were all really worried. And we had no idea what that meant. it turns out that the Wi-Fi just was down, but oh my God, how horrifying.

Starting point is 00:30:00 Every day I wake up and I just, I don't know if he's still alive. And he's only one of many, many immigrants that I have worked on cases for and that I am trying to bring attention to. And it's terrifying to never know if he's going to be one of the many, many people who have died in there because it's been weeks or months or a year. Yeah. And so, you know, as far as conditions go, we don't have a lot of information about his specific condition. We know that he has been struggling. We know that it's been very hard on his health. It would be hard on anyone's health, whether they were disabled or sick or not. Yeah. Because the conditions are inhumane. We do know, as reported by other clients of the immigration attorneys on our team, we know that at different detention centers, Many have told her that it's very cold, one who was with the gen pop and could only speak with her from a tablet in the room while other detainees were around. Several have told her that they were denied access to nurses and medical care when they had headaches or a sore throat.

Starting point is 00:31:13 Yeah. I also want to tie this back to, you know, the global pandemic. We've seen a lot of people die of COVID or other illnesses well in, attention, this is a public health issue. This is a public health and safety issue. Just the same way that people who are in prisons are treated poorly and not given the medical care they need and that that cruelty is part of the point. Immigrants in detention are also completely deprived of medical care that they need. And again, that would be really dangerous for anyone. But for Elbeiro, he has a severe seizure disorder.

Starting point is 00:31:53 Like one thing could go wrong and he would be gone. Yeah. Like his life hangs in the balance. There's another client she has with gastrointestinal problem. And she told her that they basically can't eat anything because the food quality is so poor and coupled with their condition. They just vomit and have diarrhea constantly. This is what is happening.

Starting point is 00:32:19 in ICE attention facilities. They are just completely overrun with these public health and safety disasters and they don't have the care or attention because those conditions happening are orchestrated. Yeah, like they don't give a shit. They're orchestrated.

Starting point is 00:32:42 They're a part of the cult. They don't care. Yeah. What's worse is they do care, but they care. about creating the suffering. Yeah. Well, it's like, for them, it's like these people's ultimate goal

Starting point is 00:32:55 is to not have non-white people in the U.S., right? You could look at like, you know, Stephen Miller's wife, like, last week was like posting shit about what will happen when they deport a hundred million Americans. It's like, yeah. Right, they want an ethno state. Absolutely. No, like they, and they don't,

Starting point is 00:33:13 it doesn't really matter to them. Like, you know, it's, it's kind of bad PR if people die in their in their fucking camps, but these people don't give a shit whether these people die or are sent away. Like, they don't fucking care. Like, they care about hurting people.

Starting point is 00:33:27 They don't care where they live or die. They don't care about bad PR either to an extent because, I mean, you know, this is what the show is about. Authoritarian regimes and fascism is about control. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:45 I mean, sure, I guess, maybe if there's enough bad PR and they can't literally control people on the streets who are overtaking the situation and fighting back, because they've gotten bad PR, that's a problem. But in and of itself, I don't really know if they care about the bad PR. They should care about the results of the bad PR, which is why we should all keep giving them bad PR. We've seen a lot of that.

Starting point is 00:34:15 There are so many things that have happened since the escalation in Minneapolis last week, where Renee Engood was shot and killed. I was collecting notes before this call, and I'd already had many. And then when I was collecting notes just from today alone, I was like, oh, my God, 20 things have happened. We found out in the last day alone, there was a huge piece published in Slate today that ICE is doing zero background checks on their applicants. A journalist got officially hired,

Starting point is 00:34:49 despite being a prominent person who speaks about leftism online. They failed a drug test. They didn't even complete all the proper paperwork. ICE has literally no idea who they're hiring, and they don't care because they'll take anyone who is willing to terrorize people. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:08 Like, that's going to cause, it's already causing a lot of community ruffers. it's going to ruin communities, and the reality is they don't care if it does because it's actually the point. If this were about accuracy or real, quote unquote, justice for Americans who are, you know,

Starting point is 00:35:25 quote unquote, being wronged by immigrants or whatever their narrative is, they would have a vetting process. They would want the best of the best, but they don't because it's just about annihilation and control. Yeah. Well, and the other part of that, too, if you want to look at the sort of more positive angle of it

Starting point is 00:35:41 is like part of what's going on here is that they can't find enough people who want to commit an ethnic cleansing. Here's my thing. I'm a little concerned. That's not true. They are incentivizing people to betray their values. And part of what's going on in this country is that people are out of work. People need to stay fat and housed. Yeah, but here's the thing. Like, if they were able to really easily, like, recruit those people into doing this, then they wouldn't be continuously upping the bonus rates and they wouldn't be trying to, like, steal cops from other agencies? Like,

Starting point is 00:36:17 I think they seem to be having legitimate problems, even in a shitty job market. And we should, we should give them more. I think we should give them more. I think that we should incentivize, I personally would love to figure out how to incentivize ICE agents to quit their jobs. Like,

Starting point is 00:36:35 I don't know what I have to do. Maybe I'll gather my, like, sex worker friends to organize some kind of, of campaign. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Well, you can you just make their lives miserable until they quit. Like that's the, that's the easy. Sure. Yeah. And I, and by the way, I say sex worker friends specifically because doms are tough and they would bully ice agents to no ends. And I say this as a former dog. I believe in us. I believe in us. We can, we can make these people's lives, how we could do this?

Starting point is 00:37:13 I really think that if we take collective action and we all take stock of what are my skills and then use that to put the pressure on the people who are making this terror possible, I think that we can, I think we can take them all down. Yeah. I think that we truly could convince people to quit if we make their lives of living hell. Do not let them stay at hotels. do not let them buy groceries. Don't let them show their faces anywhere in public.

Starting point is 00:37:44 Okay, this is also another thing that happened today. I think it was there was the largest data breach ever. There was a data breach today or yesterday. That was 4,500 names got leaked with info in them so they can't be anonymous. We have to take that and run with it. Yeah, now legal disclaimer. We are not advocating illegal actions here. We are simply not doing this.

Starting point is 00:38:08 I'm just saying anything is possible if you believe. Yeah. However, comma, what other people do with this data is not something we can really control. It exists now. Yeah. I actually think it would be a shame if we did something with that data. Yeah. You know?

Starting point is 00:38:24 Now, speaking of doing things with our data, I don't know. I was probably supposed to have taken like two outbreaks right now, but fuck it. We're doing one here. I believe it. And we are back. Now, one of the bleak things, something that you wanted to talk about, is that the conditions that we're seeing here

Starting point is 00:38:58 are things that have already killed people. And the danger here compounds the more risk you're at, the more, you know, for a few again, to take it, to take a completely non-abstract example, if you need seizure meds twice a day when you might die, the odds of terrible stuff happening to you increases. but yeah, can we talk a bit about the other people who this has already fucking happened to? I mean, yeah, there's so many and we can't name them all because we don't know all of their names.

Starting point is 00:39:31 Because again, we don't have all the proper data. We only know some things. But that's why a big part of this campaign has been asking people to put pressure on Congress people to release Albero to show that we're not going to give up on him. Yeah. the way that other people have just been given up on and died in detention and that we're going to work relentlessly to get him out because he matters. But, you know, as ICE escalates its attainments across the country and in the Midwest, specifically in Ohio and Minnesota and all these places, Chicago, Minneapolis, Columbus, what happens to him sets a precedent for others. The same way that

Starting point is 00:40:11 what's been happening to other immigrants has set the precedent that this is going to keep happening. You know, showing that ICE can't just take someone and disappear them and get away with it really matters for everyone else. People are watching for every immigrant detained recently and everything that ICE is rolling out. And this is, God, the, I don't even know. I've lost track because the numbers keep changing and growing. I wanted to say that's the second person that we know of that, that Renee was the second person that we knew of that ICE had murdered since New Year's Eve, but it wouldn't be surprising if there are, you know, so many

Starting point is 00:40:48 there's just so many immigrants who have died in Pasadena are currently dying in Pasadena, which is what we're trying to prevent for Elbeiro. And like in L.A., I still keep Porter in his own home. Meanwhile, you know, in Chicago or now, I guess,

Starting point is 00:41:03 Indiana, because that's where they're keeping him. They're violating and detaining families like Alberos who have done nothing to deserve this treatment. We saw a 44-year-old woman, Marie-Ange Blaze, from Haiti, who died in a U.S. ICE facility two or three weeks ago after being detained since February of 2025, I believe, who was captured and taken into custody at an airport outside of U.S. territories and, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:30 once again, showing ISIS lack of regard for the law, just total lawlessness. She was transferred to Louisiana and then somewhere else where she died after vocalizing chest pain. And as far as I know, she didn't go in with a disability. She didn't go in with a health condition, but the conditions are so horrifying there that that is just to be expected, which

Starting point is 00:41:55 is terrible. And this dangerous pattern can't continue to unfold. We don't want this to be Elbeiro and his family's reality, nor any immigrants living nightmare. You know, like this is such a community issue across the world. Like,

Starting point is 00:42:11 every one of the people connected to anyone who has died in ICE attention is impacted for the rest of their life by this. You know, like, it's what I was saying when I said, people who have immigrant family, we can't just go about business as usual. Every day I wake up and I don't know if something is going to happen to one or all of my loved ones who might be targeted by virtue of having dark skin, which is not a crime. But in America, we're trying to make it one.

Starting point is 00:42:46 And, like, again, we don't want this to happen to O'Bero. He's a community member. Everyone in the community is saddened. He's a father. He is an uncle. He is a husband. His wife is so upset and so worried and doesn't understand why this is happening. Because to her, he is a man who goes to work day and night to help.

Starting point is 00:43:13 his family and to provide for his family. And there just is absolutely no reason for him to be in there. And she was originally in detention too. They were both detained, but they let her out. And that also feels like part of the cruelty. You know, part of the cruelty and the conditions of dying in ICE custody

Starting point is 00:43:37 are also rooted in being separated from hair. and love. They let her out, you know, probably, we don't know, we have no idea why. We can't begin to imagine her guess. But it probably has something to do with separating them because it makes the experience more excruciating. Yeah. And, you know, as bleak as a situation is, and it's really, really fucking bad, we do in terms of being able to turn this, A, try to save one person's life and be.

Starting point is 00:44:12 use this as a precedent we can use to fucking try to get other people out. There is a legal advantage we have here that we don't in most places, which is that, yeah, as you're talking about earlier, this stop was so illegal. They literally

Starting point is 00:44:28 did a whole bunch of things that they were specifically ordered by a judge not to do. Yes. And that gives us a little bit of hope in a situation where it allows us to put pressure in ways that normally would be very, very difficult to. can you talk a bit more about that?

Starting point is 00:44:44 The Nava consent decree. Yeah, or how it can be deployed here. Yeah, I mean, so right, there was nothing remotely legal about what they did. The Nava consent decree that exists in Chicago, specifically, you know, limits ICE's ability to carry out warrantless around. and vehicle stops, they require predetermined probable cause with the most recent rulings enforcing that despite constant violations by ICE. But, you know, groups like the National Immigrant Justice Center have used that to successfully challenge those violations leading to potential release in.

Starting point is 00:45:42 and actual releases for people who have been detained and orders for officers being retrained, which I mean... They're just going to keep doing it, right? But like... They're just going to keep doing it. But, you know, what happened in Minneapolis, for example, with Renee and Good,

Starting point is 00:46:02 they got in trouble, actually. The officers had something sent to them to remind them, like, hey, so you actually, like, can't do things the way that you did. And things like the Nava consent decree right? They cause problems because you can wave around a paper and say hey, like you can't do this.

Starting point is 00:46:20 And like is it kind of as fake as the Constitution in some ways? Yeah. Like they kind of don't care about it. Yeah. But it is a tool that can be used by lawyers like the wonderful immigration lawyers that we have on our team.

Starting point is 00:46:37 We have Paula and Ang who are the immigration attorney. helping Al Barreau and his wife. And they can use that. Like they've filed a habeas and they can use all of this evidence of how they were illegally detained and violated without any grounds to push back and say you need to release him immediately. The piece of paper from the judge does give us a little bit of openings here.

Starting point is 00:47:06 Could you explain to people like what, you know, what people listening to the show right now can do to help here? Yeah, I mean, I would say two-fold. If we are looking at Albero's case and his family's case, there is a crowd fund that they can donate to. I can send you the link that you can share. Yeah, we will link it in the description. We really need people to donate to that. Again, Renee and Good was able to, her wife was able to raise $1.4 million in a day. and while I am hoping and have faith that they will redistribute that to other people in need who are impacted by situations like this, it doesn't really feel great to see white people get all that money when we can't even push past $14,000 for Elbeiro. So we really need people to donate. There is also a change.org petition for people to sign.

Starting point is 00:48:06 We have a few thousand people who have signed it, but we need more. or asking for Congress to pressure ICE to release him, this would also be monumental for other immigrants in detention. Yeah. Okay, if we can use this as a case study, we know what we can get done through people power, through sheer will and through not allowing things to just fall through the cracks of social media because you're too busy, doom scrolling.

Starting point is 00:48:37 That being said, what people can also do is they can post. I mean, I think that people should doomscroll less if it means that their nervous systems will be more regulated so that they can show up to defend community members and protect community members. But if what you have is your phone in bed and you're scrolling, post, share. Let people know what is happening. Refuse to be silent. Refuse to just go about your day, business as usual. Talk about things. Let them know that people see what's happening and they're paying attention.

Starting point is 00:49:21 And we are not going to just let people be disappeared or killed and die in detention. We are not going to abandon vulnerable people. Every single one of us has the opportunity to use our voice. You don't have to be me. You don't have to be a well-known person who has large platforms. Every single one of us has a community that we can activate at any time. You text five people and tell them about something that is being done to someone, and they text five people, and they text five people.

Starting point is 00:50:01 That's the entire world, baby. Like, we got this shit. I believe we can appropriate pure mistakes to help people. I believe in us. Pete Seeger said solidarity forever, okay? I believe that we will win. If what you do is make memes, make a meme. Make a copy pasta.

Starting point is 00:50:23 Make a copy pasta and send it to people. Like, if your method is shitposting, sure, take whatever you got and find a way to spread the news. and, you know, do it for other immigrants, too. You know, do it for whoever. But the more you speak out, the more you make it possible for other people to speak out. Yeah. Because they realize they're not going to be the only ones, even if they're afraid to say something.

Starting point is 00:50:53 Yeah. And it's harder to crack down on everyone. Sure. And also, the more you show people, like, I actually have no idea if you, he knows how much support he has. I would love for him to know that. Yeah. So that it helps him to get through. I know he knows that he has his family support, and that's a lot.

Starting point is 00:51:15 That's more than enough. But I would also, you know, love for people to just really, like, care for immigrants and non-white people in general right now who are on this. soil that we call, you know, the land of the United States because basically anyone who is not white right now is terrified of what might happen to them if they're on the wrong street at the wrong time. And they're rolling out these terror campaigns in Oregon and

Starting point is 00:51:52 Columbus and Minneapolis and Chicago and New York. I knew they were going to escalate things in New York after Zoron took office because it's a great excuse. Everyone is terrified right now and the best thing that you can do is show up every day and be human to each other. Buy someone a coffee, like offer to just listen to a non-white person in your life. Take an anti-racism course. Show up as a human being who cares about other human beings because that is the thing that matters most. When I think about stories, that we have from way back in history, like I'll just fly, you know, Anne Frank,

Starting point is 00:52:37 because that's the one that everyone knows. The thing that mattered for her, the thing that kept her alive for longer than she could have maybe been alive is people being human to each other. Like, I think that's such an underrated way to show up, and we take it for granted every day because we don't consider always how our smallest actions impact each other

Starting point is 00:53:02 and the truth is that your smallest actions could be the difference between someone losing their life or not. Yeah. I don't know. I'm going to close this by doing, but as this tradition, about one and every 12 episodes, I do answer something from the fucking Andornevic manifesto.

Starting point is 00:53:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he has this lie where you guys remember that the frontiers of the rebellion is everywhere. and even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. And it does, right? It's impossible to know until it happens what the single push that makes the damn break is going to be. But it will be something. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:47 And it is literally impossible to tell what it's going to be until, you know, the only way you can find out if the action that you are taking is going to be the one that knocks everything over is by doing it. So go do. Absolutely. Yeah, we owe each other everything. And I'm going to, I'm going to do something kind of silly because I am who I am. But this is one of my favorite songs in the world. And this is a Shrek reference. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:54:22 All Star by Smash Mouse. Like, you know, all that clitters is gold. only shooting stars break the mold. You'll never know if you don't go. You'll never shine if you don't glow. Like, that's a directive. That's a directive. I think we should listen to Smashouth

Starting point is 00:54:43 and we should try. We should just try for each other. I take that song very serious. You know, I really, really truly, when I was planning this episode like a week ago, I did not think it was going to end with Andoran Shrek. But, you know, this is why you could never

Starting point is 00:55:00 look, you never know how things are going to go and sometimes they head well. Yeah, Ellie, do you have anything else that you want to make sure people know and where can people find you? I don't have anything else that I think people should know. People can find me on

Starting point is 00:55:18 Instagram at L-E-R-E-L-L-L-L-L-Y, like literally, but with my name, E-L-L-L-Y. Incredible. We'll have this in the description too. Great. That's been my username

Starting point is 00:55:33 everywhere on social media since I was 15. So it's been 16 years. People are always like, how did you get that username? Gil, deal, baby. You had to be on

Starting point is 00:55:49 Twitter as a kid. But yeah, that's, it's my same username everywhere. I have a newsletter that you could find on my social media where I write about community care and what we owe to each other. I'm way less concerned about people being able to find me, except to just go, go share

Starting point is 00:56:09 the campaigns that I've shared on my page for Albero and other immigrants, because I am constantly sharing things. If, you know, this helps me to get more of a platform so that people share more of the crucial campaigns that I share. That is great. My main main thing, concern is I don't need to be seen or heard or listen to any more than is necessary to get people to take action to help more vulnerable people than me. But if people also want to listen to the things I have to say, Thor, go for it. I quote mashmouth a lot and I'm very gay. We love to see it. Okay, this has been it could happen here, a podcast done, by the girl who posted I supposed to be destroyed after every single post for eight goddamn years.

Starting point is 00:57:03 And now we're here. So let's go fight. And now we're here. And for its e-books, everything happens so much. Yes. You know Roll Doll, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary.

Starting point is 00:57:38 controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy.

Starting point is 00:57:52 Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's office? author ever, and what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.

Starting point is 00:58:17 Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The social media trend that's landing some Gen Z years in jail. The progressive media darling whose public meltdown got her fired. I'm going to take Francesco off the network entirely. The massive TikTok boycott against Target that makes no actual sense. I will continue getting stuff from Target. and I will continue to not pay for it.

Starting point is 00:58:43 And the MAGA influencers, whose trip to the White House ended in embarrassment. So refreshing to have the press secretary after the last few years who's both intelligent and articulate. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media, but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online, in media and in politics with the Brad versus Everyone podcast, hosted by me, Brad Palumbo. Every day of the week, I bring you on a wild ride who the most delulu takes on the internet, criticizing the extremes of both sides from an independent perspective.

Starting point is 00:59:14 Join in on the insanity and listen to the Brad versus Everyone podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creators who built the cultural empire. The Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the...

Starting point is 00:59:40 the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing.

Starting point is 01:00:12 And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather. It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea.

Starting point is 01:00:35 In 1995, my neighbor and a trainer disappeared from a commune. It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody. There were years right where I could not say your name. I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists,

Starting point is 01:01:01 whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened. Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend. They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of a bitch to come around her in my wife. Boom, boom, this is the red weather. Listen to the red weather starting on January 28th at the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 01:01:29 Welcome to It Could Happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Last September, President Trump announced a federal crackdown on left-wing radical terrorism by signing an executive, order, dubbing, quote, unquote, Antifa, a domestic terrorist organization, and directing federal law enforcement to investigate potential federal crimes related to political violence, especially stemming from, quote, anti-Americanism, anti-capitalism, anti-Christianity, and hostility towards traditional American values, unquote. Last month, the FBI claimed one of their first big victories

Starting point is 01:02:06 against so-called Antifa terrorism since Trump's national security directive. On December 12th, the FBI arrested four people in Southern California, who the government claims are members of a far-left group called the Turtle Island Liberation Front. The criminal complaint signed on December 13th by an FBI agent working at the Joint Terrorism Task Force office in Los Angeles, alleges that these four individuals, Conspired to construct and detonate a series of bombs in Southern California on New Year's Eve 2025. The four defendants were first charged with conspiracy and possession of an unregistered destructive device.

Starting point is 01:02:52 Then on December 23rd, a federal grand jury indicted them on additional terrorism-related felonies. Here's a brief clip from the FBI press conference announcing the arrests, where First Assistant U.S. Attorney Bill Assaly compared the Turtle Island Liberation Front Group to Antifa. This case is another reminder about the dangers that radicalized Antifa-like groups posed to public safety and the rule of law. In court documents, the defendants are not just referred to by their legal names, but also by their direct action or signal code names. Audrey Eileen Carroll, a.k.a. Osanak. or Black, Black.

Starting point is 01:03:36 Black Moon, Zachary Aaron Page, aka AKh, Ash Carrington, or Kathulu's daughter, Dante Garfield, aka Nomad, and Tina Lai, aka Kickware. The criminal complaint states that after forming the initial bombing plan, Carol and Page, recruited additional co-conspirators who participated in further planning meetings and helped procure bomb-making materials. On December 12th, the four defendants traveled to a remote location in the Mojave Desert

Starting point is 01:04:10 with the alleged intent to build and test explosive devices. An undercover FBI agent was present at the testing site and a surveillance plane observed from overhead. Before the defendants completed assembling a functional explosive device,

Starting point is 01:04:27 the FBI arrested Carol Page, Garfield, and Lye. From the court documents that are currently available, The earliest allusion to this New Year's Eve bombing plot is in a signal message dated November 24th, 2025, allegedly from one of the defendants, Audrey Eileen Carroll, to whom they believed was a genuine co-conspirator, but was actually a confidential human source working with law enforcement, according to the indictment. This alleged signal message from Carol stated that she and quote-unquote four comrades were planning to go the desert from December 11th to December 13th, 2025, to, quote,

Starting point is 01:05:09 test the items we are going to use for those party plans, unquote. This message references pre-existing, quote-unquote, party plans, which any prior origin of has not yet been elaborated on. This confidential human source appears to be an individual embedded in the Los Angeles activist scene. The criminal complaint describes them like this, quote, the confidential human source is cooperating with law enforcement and is a validated and vetted source. The confidential human source has been a reliable source of information since in or around August 2021. The confidential human source is cooperating for financial compensation. The confidential human source does not have any

Starting point is 01:05:58 criminal history, the confidential human source provided past reliable reporting on other cases and has provided reliable reporting in this case, unquote. The quote-unquote Turtle Island Liberation Front appears to be a relatively new group with a social media footprint that only goes back to July 2025. The Instagram bio for their LA chapter reads, quote, liberation through decolonization and tribal sovereignty, unquote. Their most recent post from December 12th, the day of the arrests, is promoting a quote-unquote Palestine pop-up market in Culver City.

Starting point is 01:06:40 A post from November 28th reads, quote, If they hurt you, they hurt me too. Our destinies are intertwined. Liberation for one must mean liberation for all. The empire must fall. And from within the belly of the beast, we must be the ones to dismantle it. Revolution is the only way. Stop, quote unquote, peaceful protesting.

Starting point is 01:07:04 Rise up, fight back. We are not outnumbered. They are. Organize and be ready, unquote. As news of this group and the bombing plot spread around the internet last month, among the left, there was a lot of skepticism pointed at the authenticity of the story and the Turtle Island Liberation Front group itself, with questions pointed at its name

Starting point is 01:07:28 and some of the language used in their social media posts. The name derives from a term that some indigenous tribes used to describe the North American continent and is common language among a certain sect of quote-unquote land-back activists. The Liberation Front moniker has been used by a collection of direct-action-based groups, most notably the Earth Liberation Front

Starting point is 01:07:53 and the Animal Liberation Front in the 2000s. Though the Turtle Island Liberation Front group doesn't seem to have been a formalized activist group for very long, there were genuine people involved with this group as evidenced by there being four defendants in this criminal case. The Turtle Island Liberation Front Instagram account was run by one of these defendants,

Starting point is 01:08:18 and the language used in their posts is not uncommon among the quote-unquote anti-imperialists whose ideology is grown in influence among the American left during Israel's genocide in Palestine. And though both an FBI informant and an undercover employee played a part in this investigation, the group seems to have contained a collection of genuine individuals who have participated in the wider Los Angeles activist scene

Starting point is 01:08:44 and especially anti-Israel protests. The indictment and criminal complaint outlined the material steps that defendants allegedly took to detail the plans of this bombing plot and procure materials to construct explosive devices without material support from FBI sources or undercover employees. All the information in the indictment and criminal complaint is alleged, and all the defendants should be considered innocent until proven guilty. The indictment claims that Carol set up an in-person meeting for November 26th to discuss the bombing plot with another alleged Turtle Island Liberation Front member Zachary Aaron Page and the confidential human source, who were instructed to, quote, wear casual block, no devices. If you can't leave it at home, have it turned off and wrapped in tinfoil, makeshift Faraday bag, unquote. During this in-person meeting, Carol allegedly distributed an eight-page handwritten document titled Operation Midnight Sun, outlining the plan for the bombing to both the confidential human source and co-defendant Zachary Page.

Starting point is 01:09:58 Carol allegedly retained two to four additional copies of the handwritten plan. The indictment says that Carol explained that the document was handwritten because she, quote, did not want any traces of the attack plan on a computer. unquote. After this meeting, Carol allegedly sent an encrypted message to the confidential human source about the bomb testing camp out in the desert. Quote, this trip is very spicy, LOL, will be testing the things we're going to make for December, like the things in the instructions on that document I gave you. Testing first is important, so we know how well they work L.O.L., unquote. the plan was for teams of four on-the-ground participants to plant backpacks containing quote-unquote complex pipe bombs or IEDs, improvised exclusive devices, outside of buildings at five locations targeting two U.S. companies, and then simultaneously detonate the bombs at midnight on New Year's Eve 2025. There would be one off-the-ground member assisting the teams remotely by listening to police scanners, or,

Starting point is 01:11:06 stationed in a vehicle in case, quote, an emergency getaway is needed, unquote. And one member of each on the ground team would create graffiti of, quote, a red triangle and one message of the team's choosing on the sidewalk closest to the building while the other three are placing the devices, unquote. The indictment claims that the handwritten plan also instructed co-conspirators, quote, once you plant your IEDs, if there is any time to safely do so, dump an accelerant around the premises, such as gasoline, for added effect. We want to do as much damage as possible, unquote. The plan identified five target locations as, quote, unquote, marks, with five more blank slots,

Starting point is 01:11:54 captioned, add more if enough comrades. The criminal complaint states that these targets were, quote, property and facilities operated by two separate companies that are used or engaged in activities affecting interstate and foreign commerce, unquote. I'm going to quote from three sections of the criminal complaint that outline some of the OPSEC or operational security precautions that are allegedly included in this handwritten plan. Quote, the plan described multiple operational security measures the co-conspirators should take to conceal their identities, such as the use of a burner phone that would be disposed of after the bombings by, quote, submerging it in a concrete brick after destroying the

Starting point is 01:12:39 sim and then disposing of the brick in a body of water, unquote. The target date of the operation, New Year's Eve, was identified as an opportune time because, quote, fireworks will be going off at this time, so explosions will be less likely to be noticed as immediately as any normal day, unquote. The plan emphasized that, quote, absolutely no mistakes can be made, unquote. The plans outlined the use of, quote, unquote, black block over top of a layer of, quote, gray slash casual block on top of normal street clothes, and noted to keep hair very tightly concealed and to wear gloves for the purpose of avoidance of leaving behind DNA. The plan further instructed that participants should leave their personal devices at home and to make sure

Starting point is 01:13:27 the devices were set up to stream a long movie during the time of the attacks, as so to craft an alibi or quote-unquote plausible deniability by having it appear as though the actor was actively using their devices. The plan discussed free operational surveillance of targets, identification of D-block or D-clothing locations, and not leaving, quote, anything other than the IEDs behind, unquote, as they could not, quote, risk any evidence tracing back to us, unquote. The plan also noted the benefit of placing a small pebble in a shoe to alter natural gate to obfuscate their identification. Instructions on how to purchase materials to construct a pipe bomb suggested using cash only, purchasing in small quantities to avoid suspicion, and splitting

Starting point is 01:14:21 purchases amongst a team rather than individually. In addition to the plan of action and operational security tactics, detailed instructions were provided on the components required to build a pipe bomb, as well as how to create homemade gunpowder, unquote. On December 2nd, there was another in-person meeting between the law enforcement source, Carol and Page, as well as two other co-conspirators to go over the plan. They met again on December 7 to review the bombing plot and allegedly discussed intent to conduct future attacks against federal offices. This meeting was also attended by an undercover FBI employee

Starting point is 01:15:13 who was being recruited to join the operation. The undercover asked Carol about the black powder instructions in the handwritten plan, and Carol responded that she conducted the research herself and discussed wanting to test several different types of bomb to determine which could, quote unquote, completely pulverized their assigned building on New Year's Eve. To quote the criminal complaint,

Starting point is 01:15:39 quote, Carol stated that she had acquired some components, 13 PVC pipes, and that she had bought potassium nitrate on Amazon using a burner account that was scheduled to be delivered on December 11, 2025. During this in-person meeting, Carol confirmed that she operated the Turnell Island Liberation Front Instagram account,

Starting point is 01:16:01 and that she had met a co-co-exam. conspirator through said Instagram account. The indictment claims that Carol told co-conspirators in this meeting, quote, what we are about to do. That's going to be like a Luigi-level situation, unquote, and that it was time for America to fall and that America falling will make Israel fall. According to the indictment, during this December 7th meeting, Page told attendees, again, including an undercover FBI employee,

Starting point is 01:16:31 that they were doing everything, quote, to be as clean as possible because 100,000% the FBI is gonna be like on that shit. Yeah, so we all know what we're getting into, unquote. In person, Page outlined some of the operational security precautions to avoid law enforcement detection,

Starting point is 01:16:53 like covering shoes with socks to cover shoe prints and burning shoes after the bombing. Page also allegedly, asked attendees if they would like to receive firearms training from a group that held a training about a month prior, and Carol said that she had a contact who could obtain unregistered ARs. This wasn't the first time Turtle Island Liberation Front members allegedly brought up firearms. The indictment claims that on, quote, December 3, 2025, defendant page, using an encrypted messaging application, asked the confidential human source if the human source, if the human source

Starting point is 01:17:31 was interested in receiving firearms training, explaining his plan to shoot ICE officials. In a voice message to the confidential human source, defendant page stated, quote, I just had this daydream. I was like, we're just patrolling or whatever, and we're strapped, right? And we see ICE trying to pull up on someone or a group of people. And we just like, roll up on them, like strapped up. And we're like, nah, get the fuck out of here. They're going to get shot if they try to do anything. Like, we shoot first, we ask questions later. That's the policy.

Starting point is 01:18:05 I told that to, in brackets, defendant Carroll. Defendant Carroll knows all about this. And brackets, defendant Carol was like, yeah, let's fucking do it. But I'm like, seriously, that is what's needed. Maybe if ICE agents, they're like, wait, I don't want to get fucking shot right now. They ain't going to do it. And if they still try to do it, well, guess what? Welcome to the dirt motherfucker, unquote.

Starting point is 01:18:28 after sending this voice message, Paige told the confidential human source, quote, let me know when you listen so I can delete it, unquote. Small lines like that are part of what I find really interesting in this Turtle Island Liberation Front case, because the indictment and criminal complaint are just full of the defendants recommending these security folklore practices, like setting up your phone to stream a long movie to create an alibi and placing a small pebble in your shoe to,

Starting point is 01:18:58 alter your gate, deleting these messages after you send them, which they're trying to do all while working with not just an FBI informant, but also an undercover agent. During the December 7th in-person meeting, Paige and Carol discussed plans for future attacks after this New Year's Eve bombing plot, specifically a plan to target ice agents and vehicles with pipe bombs starting around January or February 2026, with Carol noting in the meeting, quote, that would definitely take some of them out and would probably scare the rest of them, unquote. Following this meeting, more co-conspirators, including an undercover FBI employee, were added to the signal group chat called the Order of the Black Lotus, which Carol described as

Starting point is 01:19:52 the radical faction of the Turtle Island Liberation Front, and which Page described as quote-unquote, super underground. The indictment contains some alleged messages sent to an encrypted group chat. It's unclear. This is specifically the order of the Black Lotus chat or another Turtle Island Liberation Front related chat, but I will read through some of these messages. Quote, page messaged co-conspirators, including defendants, Harold and Garfield, quote, death to Israel, death to the USA, death to colonizers, death to

Starting point is 01:20:27 settler colonialism. In response to defendant Page's message, defendant Carroll stated, quote, death to them all, burn it all down, three burning heart emojis, unquote. Defendant Carol messaged co-conspirators, including Page and Garfield, quote, I identify as a terrorist, and I am a Hamas fan girl, unquote. Garfield messaged co-conspirators including Carol and Page, quote, I am here to destroy Zionism by any means necessary. Real activism equals destroying Zionism by any means necessary, even if it's risky. If you aren't willing to die for or lose your freedom, then you're just

Starting point is 01:21:09 another toy in the machine, unquote. Carol messaged, quote, glory to the martyrs, death to Israel, three salute emojis. And on December 3rd, defendant Carol told the confidential human source, quote, these fucking SJW peaceful protest libs are insane. Like it's wild to me that I've seen state violence enacted on some people like that, and they still think they can keep going with peaceful protest BS and indirect roots, unquote. Defendants used the Black Lotus Group chat, what Carol described as, quote, our group for everything radical, unquote, to discuss sourcing bomb-making parts, including cotton string and PVC pipes,

Starting point is 01:21:51 as well as coordinates for the explosives testing site in the desert. Quote, where we will set up camp and where we will test, unquote. On the afternoon of December 10th, Paige messaged the group about just having acquired two parts for the bomb recipe, and that starter would be picked up later that day. Page was under FBI surveillance around the time this message was sent, and 15 minutes prior to sending this message, Page was seen grabbing a package from an Amazon pickup location.

Starting point is 01:22:24 Hours later, FBI agents watched Page buy pistol primers from a store in Irving, California, quote, dressed in a manner to obscure Page's identity, namely wearing a medical mask, gloves, ball cap, and long-sleeved shirt, to quote the criminal complaint. Carol replied to Page's messages about obtaining more items from the ingredients list, writing that another package was, quote, already delivered, got to pick it up tomorrow, but yay, with four whys, unquote. The criminal complaint says that, quote, according to Amazon records on December 7th, 2025, Carroll purchased two five-pound bags of potassium nitrate, 99% pure-prilled K-N-O-3,

Starting point is 01:23:09 five pounds for industrial and technical applications to be delivered to the Amazon counter at the Whole Foods located at 3377 South La Siena Boulevard, Los Angeles, California. The potassium nitrate was delivered on December 11th, 2025, unquote. In early December, Carol messaged the confidential human source on Signal a list of components, chemicals, and tools, along with prices of the required items. Several of these components were either listed as already purchased or designated to be acquired by another quote-unquote comrade. Carol advised the confidential human source,

Starting point is 01:23:49 quote, with the list, write it down when you have some time, then I'll delete that message so it's no in the chat, L.O.L, unquote. Carol also told the confidential human source that they should get some burner phones, quote-unquote, bought with cash only. For the bomb testing camp out in the desert, page instructed the group to only bring two burner phones to use in case of emergencies,

Starting point is 01:24:12 and for directions on the way out. To quote the complaint, quote, once everyone arrived, their phones would be put in a small cardboard box completely sealed with aluminum. The phones would not be returned until the caravan was out of the campsite

Starting point is 01:24:24 and back on the main road, unquote. For getting to the desert, Page wrote that each navigator should have a burner phone, and quoting Paige in the complaint, quote, no phones besides burners and all phones except navigators to be wrapped in foil

Starting point is 01:24:38 or a Faraday bag for the entirety of the trip. and install OSM and. It is an open source maps, so no corporate tracking, unquote. Garfield wrote, quote, I have a few burners, but I'm saving for the big event, the big party celebrate emoji, unquote. On December 10th, Carol sent the confidential human source

Starting point is 01:25:02 a message on signal reading, quote, I kind of hand this notebook where I wrote down multiple plans that never happened or got delayed. So it's like my terrorist diary, L-M-A-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O. I have to get rid of that, unquote. On the morning of December 12, 2025, Carol, Paige, Garfield, and Lye traveled to the desert in two vehicles, the confidential human source in one car and the undercover in the other. To quote from the complaint, quote,

Starting point is 01:25:44 In the undercover vehicle, Page discussed using cigarettes as a delayed fusing device for the explosives once they arrived in the desert. In the other vehicle, Carol explained to Lye that the day's events were meant as a test run for the New Year's Eve bombing plot, which Carol described in detail, stating, quote, what we're doing will be considered a terrorist act, unquote. In response to Carol's detailing of the New Year's Eve plot,

Starting point is 01:26:11 Lye asked if there would be any people at the bombing target locations. Carol responded in the negative, but noted that if they saw any people, such as a security guard, at any of the locations they would warn them. At approximately 10 a.m., the co-conspirators arrived at the desert and began setting up a campsite including 10-cent tables. Based on information from the undercover and confidential human source, Carol, Page, and Lye all brought bomb-making components to the campsite, including various sizes of PVC pipes, suspected potassium nitrate, charcoal, charcoal, powder, sulfur powder,

Starting point is 01:26:46 and material to be used as fuses, among others. After the undercover, alerted law enforcement with a predetermined signal indicating that bomb testing was imminent, FBI personnel intervened and placed Carol Page Garfield and Lye into custody. Unquote. This is a clip from the law enforcement press conference announcing the arrests with Akeel Davis assistant director in charge of the FBI Los Angeles field office. On December 12th, a group of individuals, again, members of this anti-government group, traveled out to the desert to test their explosive devices. They had precursor chemicals there, and they were going to create these bombs in the desert. What they are starting to do is put their chemicals and wares and the components out on the table there. This footage that you're watching is from our surveillance plane, and then what happened after this is the Los Angeles FBI SWAT team, along with the FBI's hostage rescue team, moved in and arrested all four subjects without incident. The criminal complaint notes at the end that, quote, based on conversations with the bomb technician, while no quote unquote end caps were found at the campsite, the co-conspirators could have improvised using other material,

Starting point is 01:28:09 to plug the end of the PVC pipe, though such method would have been less effective than using a proper end cap. As noted above, there were also sufficient parts to create several Molotov cocktail devices, unquote. After the arrests, law enforcement also raided the homes

Starting point is 01:28:28 of the Turtle Island Liberation Front members. In Pages' residence, police found a copy of the handwritten attack plan, Operation Midnight Sun. That same day, December 12th, another Turtle Island Liberation Front related arrest was made all the way in Louisiana. A former Marine who was a member of the Order of the Black Lotus Signal Group under the name Dark Witch She-Hur, who was also planning to instruct the group on, quote, urban tactics, accuracy, and combat shooting, unquote. She was arrested while driving from New Iberia to New Orleans with a rifle, handgun gas canister

Starting point is 01:29:07 and body armor. The FBI believes that she was going to carry out an attack based on a Facebook post commenting on a Border Patrol arrest in New Orleans, captioned, quote, shit, time to recreate Waco, Texas with these fuckers, fuck ice, unquote. Three of the defendants in the Los Angeles case, Paige, Carol, and Lye have pled not guilty. Garfield is set to be arraigned the day that I'm recording this, and the Turtle Island Liberation Front trial is currently scheduled for the end of February. You know Roaldahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

Starting point is 01:29:56 But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans, And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true.

Starting point is 01:30:17 I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past

Starting point is 01:30:40 seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here, and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks.

Starting point is 01:31:00 From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creators who built a cultural empire, the Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's Rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing.

Starting point is 01:31:40 And God said this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The social media trend that's landing some Gen Z years in jail.

Starting point is 01:31:58 The progressive media darling whose public meltdown got her fired. I'm going to take Francesco off the network entirely. The massive TikTok boycott against Target that makes no actual sense. I will continue getting stuff from Target. and I will continue to not pay for it. And the MAGA influencers, whose trip to the White House ended in embarrassment. So refreshing to have the press secretary after the last few years who's both intelligent and articulate. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media,

Starting point is 01:32:27 but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online, in media and in politics with the Brad versus Everyone podcast, hosted by me, Brad Palumbo. Every day of the week, I bring you on a wild ride who the most delulu takes on the internet, criticizing the extremes of both sides from an independent perspective. Join in on the insanity and listen to the Brad versus Everyone podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather.

Starting point is 01:32:58 It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea. In 1995, my neighbor and a trainer disappeared from a commune. It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody. There were years right where I could not say your name. I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California,

Starting point is 01:33:26 interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened. Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of a bit to come around. around her in my white. Boom, boom, this is the red weather.

Starting point is 01:33:47 Listen to the red weather starting on January 28th at the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen here, a podcast about which calamity this country and many others are going through this week. I am your host, Mia Wong. And today we're going to be talking about the Federal Reserve. Now, those of you who have listened to executive disorder are aware that a bit over a week ago, as this episode is being released, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome H. Powell released what, again, I can really only describe as someone escaping from a kidnapping and releasing a video about it, in which he discussed a Justice Department grand jury subpoena and a threat to indict him over cost overruns on a new Federal Reserve building.

Starting point is 01:34:53 Now, Jerome Powell has claimed that these charges are really about removing him and about eliminating the independence of the Federal Reserve. he also claims that he was directly threatened with these charges unless he was willing to adjust federal reserve policy to fall in line with the Trump administration. And this is an astonishing video for a number of reasons. One is that it's in a lot of ways one of the most direct points of defiance. that a government official has taken directly to the president? It's also astonishing because it is actually technically the second time

Starting point is 01:35:49 that Trump has tried to do something like this to a member of the Federal Reserve Board because as you're listening to this, the Supreme Court has been hearing arguments about Trump's attempt to fire one of the other members of the Federal Reserve Board, a woman named Lisa Cook. Now, obviously, I don't know yet what the outcome of that deliberation is going to be. It seems right now that the Supreme Court is un compelled with Trump's ability to fire a Federal Reserve Board member over really, truly very trumped-up charges about mortgage fraud. I'm going to quote here from the Supreme Court in what has become a very important statement. Quote, the Federal Reserve is a uniquely structured quasi-private entity that follows in the distinct tradition of the first and second banks of the United States.

Starting point is 01:36:50 The importance of this statement is that the Supreme Court has been willing to allow Trump to fire the heads of other, you know, what are supposed to be independent entities, right? or fire members of what are supposed to be independent federal agencies. He's been able to, just completely illegally, by the way, but with the approval of the Supreme Court, been able to fire a lot of people who were appointed under the Biden administration to posts in independent regulatory agencies. However, so far, the Supreme Court has balked at doing this for the Federal Reserve. Now, why is that and why is this?

Starting point is 01:37:31 entire thing so important. To understand that question and to understand why I've spent so much time talking about what in the grand scheme of things seems like a kind of minor, you know, just like another example of Trump attempting to use the judiciary and investigations to go after as political enemies, we need to talk about what the Federal Reserve is and what it does. because this is arguably the central institution of global capitalism. And its importance in maintaining the global capitalist economy is, to a large extent, the reason why this is the point at which U.S. senators who are aligned with Trump on every other issue have actively taken a stand against this sort of prosecution of Jerome Powell. It's why the

Starting point is 01:38:30 Supreme Court seems to not be interested in allowing Trump to wield the executive power. And this is because fucking with the Federal Reserve is fucking with the money. So what is the Federal Reserve? The Federal Reserve, to put it mildly, is an extremely confusing entity. So if you remember back to a few minutes ago when I said that the Supreme Court said that the Federal Reserve is a uniquely structured quasi-private entity? We could ask the question, okay, so it's a quasi-private entity. Is it a public entity or is it a private entity? This is a relatively simple question. Here is the answer provided by the St. Louis Federal Reserve's website. Quote, the Federal Reserve banks are not a part of the federal government, but they exist because of an act of Congress. Their purpose is to

Starting point is 01:39:26 serve the public. So is the Fed private or public? The answer is both. While the board of governors is an independent government agency, the Federal Reserve banks are set up like private corporations. Member banks hold stock in the Federal Reserve and earn dividends. Holding the stock does not carry with it the control and financial interests given to holders of common stock and for-profit organizations, the stock may not be sold or pledged as collateral for loans. Okay, so here's the Federal Reserve's answer to is it a public or private entity is both. The Board of Governors is an independent agency. The Federal Reserve Bank is set up like private corporations, so it's sort of both.

Starting point is 01:40:14 Okay, question settled. It's both. We can move on. Wait, hold on. I am receiving words. that the Federal Reserve has comments on this idea? Hold on, hold on, let me, let me, let me, let me turn to the Federal Reserve, the national Federal Reserve's website, which has a comment on the idea that the Federal Reserve Banks are private entities. Okay, here we go, here we go, quoting them now. Some observers mistakenly consider the Federal Reserve to be a private entity because the reserve banks are organized similar to private corporations. For instance, each of the 12 reserve banks operates within its own particular geographic area or district of the United States, and each is separately incorporated and has its own

Starting point is 01:41:04 board of directors. Commercial banks that are members of the federal reserve system hold stock in their district's reserve bank. Now, okay, let's look at what we have here. These are two different websites run by two different parts of the Federal Reserve, one of which says that the Federal Reserve banks are not part of the federal government, but they exist because of an act of Congress. So is the Fed public or private? The answer is both. Because the Federal Reserve banks are set up like private corporations, that's the St. Louis Federal Reserve. Now, the National Federal Reserve says, quote, some observers mistakenly consider the Federal Reserve to be a private entity because the reserve banks are organized similarly to private corporations.

Starting point is 01:41:52 So you can see that we are dealing here with an absolute goddamn mess because if you read the two websites of different federal versions of the Federal Reserve, national and sort of branches of the Federal Reserve, they say different things about what it is and they sound like they're arguing each other. Now, okay, I am doing this because it's funny. technically both of these agree with each other, but this is a shit show, because part of the purpose of the Federal Reserve is to be an entity that does research and distribute information to the public, and its websites can't agree on what it is. Now, again, I'm being slightly pedantic here. Technically, both versions of this story do say that this is both a public and a private entity,

Starting point is 01:42:40 sort of? Now, again, this is a basic question about the Federal Reserve. is it a public or private entity, and they can't agree on it. And this is, to use a technical term, a fucking nightmare, because again, the actual answer is that it is sort of both. The banks themselves are, like, technically private, but they're run by the board of governors, which is technically a government agency, and they were established by the government.

Starting point is 01:43:08 So, attempting to sort out this colossal mess has, inside of academia, this has caused a change in the conception of what the state is because what is this crap? So, okay, let's actually run through the structure of the Federal Reserve. So, importantly, the Federal Reserve is kind of three entities. In a way, you can think about this like the Holy Trinity, right? You have the 12 Federal Reserve banks, and those banks are collectively managed by what are called governors who serve on what is called the Board of Governors, which is the second entity.

Starting point is 01:43:52 And then there's also the Federal Open Market Committee, which for our purposes, we don't care about that much, but is composed of the seven members of the Board of Governors, and this is the Court of Fed itself, is composed of the seven members of the Board of Governors, the President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and four of the remaining 11 Reserve Bank presidents who serve one-year terms

Starting point is 01:44:12 on a rotating basis. So, okay, we have three entities, right? We have the decentralized Federal Reserve banks, which there's 12 of them. They cover different geographic regions of the country. We have the Board of Governors, which oversees them. And the Board of Governors is the part that is technically a government agency. And these governors are importantly for our purposes nominated by the president and confirmed by Congress. And this board of of governors, the purpose of this board of governors is to sort of run all of it. Now, they're running all of this at a macro level. Each of those 12 Federal Reserve banks also have their own board of directors and their own structures that each run all of the different banks. So this is complicated.

Starting point is 01:45:02 And again, why talking about the Federal Reserve is so complicated. If you just like start looking at political stuff people have written about the Federal Reserve, it's a nice thing. nightmare. Like if you try to, like, do your own research, your options are, unless you know where to look, right? Your options are the Federal Reserve itself, which is actually not a terrible resource for the most part, because, again, conducting economic research is one of the points of the Federal Reserve, but it's not ideal. And then also, immediately, you get a bunch of very weird anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about sound money and the sort of Rand Paul people who want to eliminate the Federal Reserve because they're mad at the U.S. dollar not being based on gold.

Starting point is 01:45:56 Nightmare. Terrible. Zero out of ten, we absolutely hate it. Now, speaking of things that we absolutely hate, it is not buying these products and services. We are back. So, All right, we've gone over the structure of the Federal Reserve. So what does the Federal Reserve actually do? And why are we talking about this at such length? If you know one thing about the Fed, it's that the Fed can print money, you may or may not, you remember the Fed printing money memes from 2020 and that sort of era. And this is one of the conceptions of the Fed that is true.

Starting point is 01:46:47 The Federal Reserve is the entity given power by the United States. U.S. government to print money. So when dollar bills are created, the treasury commissions the Fed to print the bills, technically speaking, coins are submitted by the treasury, which is a whole sideshow tangent that I had to cut out of this story because it's like 20 minutes long. But, you know, if you are holding a U.S. dollar, basically, the odds are very, very, very, very, very, very, very good. that what you were holding is technically a Federal Reserve note.

Starting point is 01:47:23 Now, what does that mean, Mio, what is happening here? Why is it the government doesn't print money? Why is it this quasi-private public entity that's printing the money? Now, what's happening here is slightly more complex than Fed Money Printer. An American dollar is U.S. debt, right? What you are holding in your hand is a promise from the U.S. government to pay $1 to the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is having this money distributed

Starting point is 01:47:55 and is having this debt distributed. And this is what U.S. currency is? It is based on debt held by, in this case, the Federal Reserve banks, which have been given a monopoly to print this debt as Federal Reserve notes. And the Federal Reserve can just sort of create this. It's also worth noting that when we talk about the Fed

Starting point is 01:48:15 creating money, I mean, obviously, like, it prints money for stuff, commissioned by the Treasury so you can have more bills in circulation. But most of the actual money that's being created or not created is, you know, this is all happening digitally. It is funds appearing in the bank accounts of the banks that use the Federal Reserve. So the other thing you may have heard about the Fed is the Fed funds rate or what's called the Fed interest rates or, you'll hear a much of talk about the Fed setting interest rates. So to understand what this is, we need to kind of take a step back and look at what these banks actually are. The way this is commonly described

Starting point is 01:48:58 is that the Fed is the bank of banks, right, which is what a bank needs a loan. They go to the Federal Reserve and banks put their money in the Federal Reserve and they use it to move their money around. That's true enough for our purposes. I should also state here that a lot of what I'm going to be saying this episode, particularly from here forward, is technically probably a simplification of what's actually happening because the mechanisms here are very, very complicated. But, okay, so the Fed interest rate, right? This is the thing that is the source of all of the tension here, right? What Trump is pissed about to a large extent is that he thinks that Fed interest rates are too high,

Starting point is 01:49:45 and he wants them to be lower because he thinks this will cause the economy to grow more. So, okay, what does that mean? What is the Fed interest rate? The way this is explained to the public is that the Fed sets the cost of borrowing. That's like true, kind of, basically, there is a rate that is decided on by the Federal Reserve Board. On a more technical level, though, it's slightly more complicated than that. So when you hear someone talk about the Fed's interest rate, what they are talking about is the federal funds rate, and technically what they're talking about is the target federal funds rate. So I'm going to quote from the Federal Reserve itself, quote, the effective federal funds rate is the interest rate at which depository institutions, banks, savings institutions, thrifts, and credit unions, and government sponsors. enterprises borrow from and lend to each other overnight to meet short-term business needs.

Starting point is 01:50:50 The target for the federal funds rate, which is set by the Federal Open Market Committee, has varied widely over the years in response to prevailing economic conditions. So, yeah, also, by the way, it is technically the Federal Open Market Committee that sets the fund rate. But, okay, when we're talking about the Fed setting the interest rates, right, there's kind of two things going on. So the effective federal funds rate, which is the thing that they're trying to control, is the interest rate at which all of these different banks

Starting point is 01:51:25 that have their money in here are all using it to lend to each other overnight through the money they have the Federal Reserve. They're all lending it to each other. The average of the rate of interest at which they're lending to each other overnight, the average of that rate is the federal funds rate. When people talk about like the interest rate's like three, point two percent or whatever. What the Fed is trying to do is make sure that at the end of the night,

Starting point is 01:51:47 this effective federal funds rate, which is the rate that all these banks are lending each other money at is at that rate. But they don't actually technically directly have control of this, because it is, to be clear, the average rate of which all of these banks are lending to each other, what the Fed is manipulating directly, usually, is the interest on reserve balances or IORB, so this is the thing the Fed does control. The interest on reserve balances is how much interest they pay out for just putting your money in the Fed and leaving it there. I'm going to quote the Fed again. The Fed's primary tool for influencing the federal funds rate is the interest the Fed pays on funds that banks hold as reserve balances at their Federal Reserve Bank, which is the

Starting point is 01:52:33 interest on reserve balances rate. Because banks are unlikely to lend funds in the federal funds market for less than they get paid on their reserve balances at the Federal Reserve. The interest rate on reserve balances is an effective tool for guiding the federal funds rate. Okay, Mia, you've been spouting gibberish for many minutes now. What the fuck does that mean? So what the Fed is normally doing is, all right, so you put your money in a bank, right? And that bank has an interest rate, and it pays you out that amount of interest at the end of the year, right? And that's the money that you are making for putting your money in this corporation.

Starting point is 01:53:12 The Fed also has their own interests on reserve balances so that they have their own interest rate for how much money you can get from just leaving your money in the Federal Reserve. And the theory, and this is like, you know, true, is that banks aren't going to lend each other money at interest rates that are lower than what you can get from the Fed because otherwise you just leave your money in the Fed and you get that amount of money. So if you're going to, you know, loan someone something, right, the interest that's being charged here is going to be higher than the Fed rate. And that's when we talk about Fed setting interest rates. That's what's happening on a technical level. And this is actually very important to global economy because

Starting point is 01:53:58 what this does, and this is where everything gets extremely murky and I'm going to go to a very, very high level of abstraction, down from sort of the very low technical details. Now, in theory, what this means is this is how easy it is to obtain money to like invest in stuff, right? This sets the rate at which you can borrow money. And in theory, if you have a very, very low interest rates, right?

Starting point is 01:54:25 If the Fed funds rate is really low, then it's very, very cheap and easy to get a bunch of money and that money flows to the economy. and theoretically that money will, you know, be used to invest in stuff, and that will increase economic growth. Okay, so why wouldn't the Fed rate just always be zero? And the answer to that is that the Fed is an institution, and this is part of its legal framework that established it,

Starting point is 01:54:49 is also trying to control inflation. And the theory effectively is that if you leave these things for too low for too long, it will cause inflation and it will cause economic bubbles that are not actually supported by the return on investment, because if you can just always continuously borrow money for zero dollars, then you can just invest in anything as long as the return is slightly more than like nothing. However, comma, raising interest races

Starting point is 01:55:15 uses a way to try to slow economic growth in order to not have inflation result, right? And also to not have there be sort of speculative bubbles. And right now we've entered a period in which, interest rates have been rising after a pretty prolonged period of interest rates being effectively zero, like following the 2008 financial collapse. They've been really low for like a while for some stuff in the 90s that we're going to get to later. But this is basically the primary dispute, which is that, okay, now obviously the Fed is to some extent a political actor.

Starting point is 01:55:50 But the question here is who is going to get to set these sort of interest rates, right? Is it going to be the president of the United States, right? Is it going to be the president of the United states, right? Is it going to be that Donald Trump can just be like, oh, economy look bad, turn down the interest rate? Or is it going to be the Federal Reserve itself, which is how it presently functions running this? That's what Fed independence means. So what is that state here is one of the defining mechanisms of sort of economic control, of control over the function of the economy. You know, this is called like a macroeconomic policy. of it, right? This is one of the largest, most important, and most powerful tools that

Starting point is 01:56:34 exists in the entire world economy for managing and regulating the American economy. And the question is, is this going to remain with this sort of quasi-technocratic independent staff, or is it going to be directly set by the presidents? And that is a huge fucking deal, because, as you mentioned, the last time I talked about this, there have been times where presidents have gotten control over central banks. For example, the sort of scare story that everyone is talking about is Turkey, where Erdogan, their effectively dictatorial leader, managed to break the independence of his own central bank and inflation rates are now merely 40%. So this is what's at stake. It's who gets to control this thing. Is it Donald Trump or is it the Federal Reserve?

Starting point is 01:57:25 Now, we are going to go to ads and we are going to come back and talk a bit more about some of the nightmares that can happen here. Now, okay, so we've been talking mostly about the Fed interest rate because that is most of what it does. Or not most of what it does. That's the most important thing that it does on a political level in terms of, you know, this is why Donald Trump wants it. However, the Fed does a bunch of other shit. Like, for example, a whole bunch of the world's gold supply owned by a bunch of countries across the world sits in a vault under the Federal Reserve building. The Fed has a balance sheet, right, of like the assets that it owns and that balance sheet is right now about $6.5 trillion. dollars, the payment system that the Fed maintains has two trillion dollars a day moving through

Starting point is 01:58:33 it, right? This payment infrastructure, the infrastructure of the Federal Reserve is the core of the functioning of the entire American banking system. Like, I cannot emphasize this enough. And this is also, you know, important on a macro international level, right? Like, this institution functioning sort of normally is the difference between capitalism working kind of normally, which is not good, but is working, and it's not working. And Trump is trying to take control of it.

Starting point is 01:59:06 And again, this is a guy who wants to invade Greenland, and he is trying to take control over one of the most powerful economic institutions that has ever existed in human history. So these are the sort of the stakes of the fight that's happening here because again, the Fed is supposed to be an independent entity, right? The president is not supposed to be able to order the Fed to just do whatever it wants. And this is what's at stake with Trump trying to fire one of these Reserve Board presidents, with Trump trying to prosecute the current head of the Federal Reserve and use that threat to bring the Fed into line with doing what he wants to do. Now, Trump is also, again, attempting to install his own guy when Jerome Powell's term as the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board ends. And, okay, in terms of could the Trump administration actually run this, right?

Starting point is 02:00:04 I'm going to read this quote from actually a very good Yahoo story about the search for Trump's new, like, who he wants to run the Federal Reserve. this is starting with a quote from Trump's Treasury Secretary Scott Bessett, who's been the guy who is running the candidate search. Quote, who can bring the board along with them? Who has the gravitas, Bessett said? Who is going to have an open, green span-like mind that we could be going through a productivity boom like we did in the 90s and not just throw the brakes because we're alarmed at a high GDP number? Okay, if you have spent your life closely following American macroeconomic policy, that is nuts. That is a terrifying statement.

Starting point is 02:00:58 Utterly horrifying. Now, Mia, why is it scary to say that he wants a Greenspan-like mindset that doesn't throw the breaks on the economy because they're alarmed by a GDP number? Why is that scary? And this is also, you know, why is it scary for the Trump administration to have direct control of the Federal Reserve? part of the reason we haven't had a full-scale economic collapse since 2008 has been that there has been a bunch of very, very careful management of the economy by the Federal Reserve, right? They have done a lot of technical stuff.

Starting point is 02:01:29 You know, I'm saying they've done a lot of technical stuff well. When I say well, I mean for the functioning of capital, like you and me and everyone listening to this, is it working for us? No, not really. But it's working for capital, right? And they've been able to prevent an economic collapse through a lot of sort of technical means in 2020. And you see this now. They did these things called overnight repo injections where they would pump like $100 billion in liquidity into the bank markets overnight in order to make sure there was liquidity because that was one of the things that caused 2008 collapse.

Starting point is 02:02:04 So they've been doing a bunch of very careful management. Some of it in these large swings that have very little public attention. some of it in just the way they've been doing policy. What these guys want to do is the Greenspan stuff from the 90s. So, okay, Mia, what the fuck is that? So what you're talking about is the Greenspan

Starting point is 02:02:23 put? Now, what happened to the 90s to simplify the story a little bit, but I'm not even really simplifying it much, every time the market went down, Greenspan would just lower the interest rate to make the market go back up. Right? So every single time

Starting point is 02:02:38 it even sort of looks like the market might be going down. He makes the cost of borrowing from the Fed cheaper so you can just take more money out of the Federal Reserve and plunge that money back into the stock markets. Right. That's the theory here. The economist Robert Brenner called it Asset Keynesianism. This is something we have talked about on the show many, many, many times. And it is, to a large extent, the thing responsible for the 2008 economic collapse and also the dot-com bubble before that and arguably also the Asian market collapses in the 90s. Okay, you know, you're dealing with a problem, which is that you don't have a manufacturing

Starting point is 02:03:16 economy that can support economic growth. So what are you going to do instead? Okay, we're going to give everyone a bunch of money so they can do speculative investing in stocks and we're going to give everyone a bunch of money so that they can go invest in the housing market because housing prices will only ever go up. And that's the thing that these people want to do, right? And in terms of why, okay, why should you be scared about this, right? This is like saying that, okay, we need to bring back the guys who did all of the like mortgage back securities in 2008 that went up and put them in charge of like the world's was powerful economic institution.

Starting point is 02:03:53 So the candidates that Trump is talking about putting in place, I don't know if any of them are going to make it right now because I think the kind of person Trump is looking for is not the kind of person who like runs this kind of thing normally. in terms of like what Trump would do with the guy that he sort of installed there, we can look at who they've already installed. Right. And the one Federal Reserve Board member that Trump has successfully gotten in place is Stefan Mirren, who, and I cannot emphasize this enough. I talk about how nuts this guy is all the time. This is the guy who wants other countries to pay taxes on holding U.S. bonds.

Starting point is 02:04:34 And this is the guy that, again, is now one of the governors of the federal Reserve War because Trump put him there. I could spend another 40 minutes ranting about how bad of an idea his Mar-a-Lago Accords, which is his version of the Plaza Accords, would be it's gibberish, it's atrocious. And these people are simply not good enough at technical economic management to be put in charge of the Federal Reserve, the most powerful economic agency in the entire world. And again, as I've been saying, right, this economic management has been good for capital. Has it been good for us. Like, no, not really. However, coming that power directly into the hands of Donald Trump is an even worse idea.

Starting point is 02:05:18 But it's also very important that this has been good for capital because Fed independence is the red line for a lot of very, very powerful sectors of capital who would be fine with things like Trump could do public executions in the streets. And like GP Morgan eventually would be okay with it, right? J.P. Morgan is like panicking over this Federal Reserve stuff. So this is actually a line at which segments of capital

Starting point is 02:05:45 are willing to break with Trump because this is an existential threat to them. Now, before I sort of close this out, I've been giving what is essentially a very conventional analysis of what the Federal Reserve is because to some extent you need a conventional analysis

Starting point is 02:06:02 of what the Federal Reserve is to understand what, the fuck is going on with these board things. But I want to give the final word to the anthropologist David Graber. This is from his book Debt the first 5,000 years. Quote, one element, however, tends to go flagrantly missing in even the most vivid conspiracy theories about the banking system, let alone in official accounts, that is, the role of war and military power. There's a reason why the wizard has such a strange capacity to make money out of nothing. Behind him, there is a man with a gun.

Starting point is 02:06:40 True, in one sense, he's been there from the start. I have already pointed out that modern money is based on government debt and that governments borrow money in order to finance wars. This is just as true today as it was in the age of King Philip II. The creation of central banks represented a permit institutionalization of that marriage between the interests of warriors and financiers that had already begun to emerge in Renaissance Italy and that eventually became the foundation of financial capitalism.

Starting point is 02:07:13 And this is something that's very, very important, right? We've been talking about how important the Fed is as an economic institution. And obviously, the importance of the Federal Reserve is tied in with the fact that the dollar is the world's reserve currency, which makes it the most important currency on Earth. it means that every other country is doing a bunch of transactions denominated in American dollars. And it turns out when you can make American dollars, that is an enormous advantage for you. But this is all based on American military power, right?

Starting point is 02:07:45 The reason that the dollar is the world reserve currency is because all of the countries that had competing currencies that could have been the international standard were sort of annihilated during World War II. And at the end of World War II, it was the United States left standing with the richest and most powerful. Economy on earth, yes, but also, like, it was the country with nukes and the largest army that wasn't the Soviets, right? The element here that Graber is pointing out, right, is that the debt that you and me and everyone is, like, carrying out our day-to-day stuff with is war debt. Literally, the thing that we used to, like, buy groceries is, to a large extent, it's a tiny bit more complicated than this, but like it's loads that were taken out

Starting point is 02:08:30 to like go bomb Vietnam. And part of what's happening under the Trump administration is that all of the things that used to be under the table, right? The U.S. always had the kind of military power that Trump is sort of throwing around to try to, you know, invade Greenland or just kidnap the president of Venezuela and like run the country by gunboat. The U.S. always had the ability to do this. It's just that it was largely agreed upon by everyone involved running the system that using this power under the table

Starting point is 02:09:04 was more effective than using it openly. The Trump administration thinks that, you know, using soft power or not explicitly just like saying we're going to invade you is like womanly pussy cuck shit. Like that's effectively what's happening here. And these people think that these relationships need to be drawn out into the open, right?

Starting point is 02:09:25 And so what we're left with here is a war between two sectors of capital, one of which wants to emulate the world to satisfy the ego of a tyrant, and the other of which wants to let climate change immolate the world slightly slower, because doing anything about climate change would hurt their bottom line, but allowing the God King to emulate the world by himself would hurt their bottom line too. And this is effectively the problem with the moment that they're in, which is that neither of these institutions, right, Donald Trump is not on your side. The Federal Reserve is also not on your side. What is necessary here, though, is not for sort of Comrade Federal Reserve to join us. What is necessary here for our purposes is that enough sectors of capital when the time comes, right, when Trump finally does something and when there's a popular reaction enough that forces a confrontation between Trump and the American people.

Starting point is 02:10:29 When that time comes, what is necessary is that these massive and powerful economic institutions stand aside and not defend the regime. This is, as I've talked about, to a significant extent on this podcast already, this is how the Bolsheviks won their revolution. It's also how the February Revolution won, which was that, large portions of the populace, large portions of the ruling class, and to some extent,

Starting point is 02:10:57 large portions of the state simply sat the conflict out because they didn't particularly like the revolutionaries, but they also weren't going to go die for some random tyrant. And that, in the end, is what's important about this conflict, right? There is, on the one hand, the possibility of Donald Trump

Starting point is 02:11:15 just emulating the entire economy, and on the other, there is the possibility of these people standing aside when we attempt to build a world when we are not being lit on fire for profit. This has been a good happen here. You know Roll Doll,

Starting point is 02:11:42 the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters

Starting point is 02:11:56 of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans And he was really good at it You probably won't believe it either Okay, I don't think that's true I'm telling you The guy was a spy

Starting point is 02:12:09 Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's Played poker with Harry Truman And had a long affair with a congresswoman And then he took his talents to Hollywood Where he worked alongside Walt Disney And Alfred Hitchcock Before writing a hit James Bond film How did this secret agent

Starting point is 02:12:24 wind up as the most successful children's author ever and what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here, and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creators who built a cultural empire.

Starting point is 02:12:56 The Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black affluent, and creatives in all walks of life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment.

Starting point is 02:13:32 And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you're from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a gradie, baby. Shut up. Listen to where Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The social media trend that's landing some Gen Ziers in jail. The progressive media darling whose public meltdown got her fired.

Starting point is 02:13:54 I'm going to take Francesco off the network entirely. The massive TikTok boycott against Target that makes no actual sense. I will continue getting stuff from Target, and I will continue to not pay for it. And the MAGA influencers, whose trip to the White House ended in embarrassment. So refreshing to have the press secretary after the last few years who's both intelligent and articulate. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media, but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online in media and in politics with the Brad versus Everyone podcast.

Starting point is 02:14:25 hosted by me, Brad Palumbo. Every day of the week, I bring you on a wild ride who the most delulu takes on the internet, criticizing the extremes of both sides from an independent perspective. Join in on the insanity and listen to the Brad versus Everyone podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

Starting point is 02:14:42 or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather. It was many and many a year ago, in a kingdom by the sea. In 1995, my neighbor, and a trainer disappeared from a commune. It was hard to wrap your head around.

Starting point is 02:14:58 It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody. There were years right where I could not say your name. I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened.

Starting point is 02:15:23 Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend. They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you, sons of the bitch. Come around here in my wife. Boom, boom. This is the red weather. Listen to the red weather starting on

Starting point is 02:15:39 January 28th at the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's getting assaulted by federal agents? No, no. No, we don't. We don't. I love when we start episodes both sleepy and all. I'm wired. I'm

Starting point is 02:16:00 I'm awake. I'm white awake, baby. I'm a white awake like the political party. Will you start? Will you do our... We already started. We already started. We have. This is executive disorder.

Starting point is 02:16:10 This is, it could happen here. Executive disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Dow, Mia Wong, Robert Evans, and Margaret Kiljoy. This episode, we are covering the week of January 14th to January 14th to January 31st.

Starting point is 02:16:31 You know a lot of news organizations don't go, woot, whoot, woo, it's wild. They're cowards. It's fucked up. That's because they don't drink Fago. I know, that's right. The official beverage of journalism.

Starting point is 02:16:42 This episode is presented by Four Loco, actually, you're not allowed to... Yeah. Speaking of drinking, actually, we will start this episode with a big glass of whole milk. Everyone has one, right? Let's all go up at the same time.

Starting point is 02:16:54 We'll finish it as we leave for the toilet. There we go. Delicious, delicious, whole milk. I drink a gallon every hour. We are not sponsored by the dairy lobby. There's nothing fishy going on whatsoever. We're all drinking whole milk now. Not at all. Not at all.

Starting point is 02:17:10 Garrison, Heffer Davis. Even Margaret. Who's been a vegan for how many decades? Look, you can be a vegan and still have a lot of money in the dairy industry. Well, all I'm saying is that if I increase my meat diet by 25%, it will stay the same. Look, that's accurate. We love that math humor, yeah.

Starting point is 02:17:36 And also, thanks to some of the new changes in the way the Food and Drug Administration works, I can guarantee you that American whole milk has almost no dairy in it. It's mostly chalk and baby laxative, just like our heroin. I have a theory about this. Can I shamamogue theory?

Starting point is 02:17:56 I think the grand unifying principle about which we could brand, American people together is that there are too many milks. Everyone agrees on this principle. That's right. This is what should take over from class. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, milks.

Starting point is 02:18:09 The great unifying milk principle. The milk reductionist. You know what place loves milk? Minnesota. Yeah, let's turn to Minneapolis, the continuing ice raids and the fallout from ice killing Renee Good. On Wednesday, January 14th, ice agents attempted to pull over a vehicle whose tag was registered to someone illegally in the country. The driver was not the owner of the vehicle and tried to

Starting point is 02:18:35 evade arrest. After a 15 to 20 minute car chase, the driver crashed into a light pole but continued to run on foot. The man ran towards a nearby apartment building with agents now chasing on foot, catching up with him after the man tripped and fell. A federal affidavit claims that another man watching from a porch named Julio Caesar Sosa Seles, used. a broom to assault the agents, while an unnamed individual hit the agents with a snow shovel. After the man they were chasing freed himself, one of the ICE agents fired his pistol, hitting Sosa-Saelis, who was then hospitalized with a non-life-threatening injury. This information is from an FBI report, which contradicts initial statements made by DHS,

Starting point is 02:19:24 which claim that ICE was conducting a targeted traffic stop for, Julio Caesar, Sosa Salis, a Venezuelan national. Cool. I think it's worth noting that this is essentially ICE shooting the guy who saves the day at the end of home alone, just as a quick note. That's all I've got to say. So we haven't gotten very much good information about the shooting. That's not from the government. What we do have is there is a live stream Facebook video of some of the 911 call that the family members made. and I'm just going to quote from CNN here. In the video, the family tells a 9-11 dispatcher that agent shot Sosa Seles as he tried to enter his home. They were following my husband for about 30 minutes.

Starting point is 02:20:10 They were trying to crash into him. He arrived at home, and because we closed the door to them, they shot him. A woman can be heard telling the dispatcher. It's not clear who is speaking or whether Sosa Seles is the person referred to as being followed. So that's the only kind of independent thing that we have on this right now, which also significantly contradicts the story that they got attacked by a guy with a snow shovel. Right. I mean, I don't think it necessarily contradicts that there was a shovel getting moved

Starting point is 02:20:43 in the direction of an ice agent at some point. Right. Yeah. It may have just been a guy trying to create distance and space between itself and an armed man. Yeah, knocked it over as he ran past it, right? And then they tripped over it. Like, there's a wide variety of things that police officers have framed as I was assaulted with this.

Starting point is 02:21:01 And then if you look at the video, it does not look like someone assaulting a police officer. Yeah. It might have just literally been a snow shovel on the porch, honestly. Well, they might have assaulted a police officer. I don't know. I don't care either way. I'm just saying we don't know what happened. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:21:15 The main report, which is in federal court documents that were unsealed on Tuesday, have this FBI agent giving his report based on, his knowledge of the incident which had ice chasing someone and bystanders used a broom and a shovel to try to get the agents off a man who was tackled on the ground one ice agent

Starting point is 02:21:35 deflected a shovel blow and it created a small gash in his hand the man that they were chasing was able to free himself from being held and as that man was running away an agent fired a pistol that is the the most detailed report

Starting point is 02:21:51 that we have at the moment Yeah. And like we can't categorically say what happened, right? You can't report on law enforcement testimony as your only source or you shouldn't. Yeah. You sure shouldn't. I guess I can say that like I'm in Minneapolis right now, right? And so is Margaret, you're comfortable with me saying you're also in Minneapolis?

Starting point is 02:22:07 It's true. I am in Minneapolis right now. Yeah, co-located as they say. It is very hard to report on these things because essentially they happen extremely quickly, right? And like on almost every corner in most of the like dense urban parts of town, there are people hanging out just trying to keep their neighbors safe. And these things happen so fast that big crowds aren't even able to gather for the most part. If you combine that with the fact that these ice agents generally aren't wearing body-worn cameras,

Starting point is 02:22:38 you're only going to get a couple of accounts and it's going to end up in a he said, she said, right, right, and then they're going to go with the law enforcement testament. which is what they want. Sure. Exactly. Yep. And I think it is also work noting that the last three shootings that we've gotten, like the federal agents lied about what happened.

Starting point is 02:22:58 Yeah. And we got the videos later on and it showed that they were lying about it. At this point, my default assumption is that absent other information, they are not telling the truth. Yeah. Yeah. Also, they're framing, the agent's framing his business into fire as related to being afraid of his life.

Starting point is 02:23:16 and in the document the fear would be based on the presence of a broom handle It's broom-based fear, yeah So it is a broom-based assault that he cites as the reason that he fired. Yeah, it's someone running away. Right.

Starting point is 02:23:32 And the woman who says that her son was the one being pursued by ICE, I'm just going to read the quote here because this is something that does directly contradict the testimony. But in an interview with CNN, Mabel Adjornah, the mother of Alfredo Alejandro Adjerno disputed both of those claims on the basis of her connection with her son immediately after the shooting.

Starting point is 02:23:53 Algerna said her son told her he was the one being pursued on foot by ICE and that the other guy was already inside the building when the agent shot him not outside, where ICE said the agent fired the shot. Jeez, yeah. Yeah, so that's the testimony that we have that's not from the ICE people. And I think we'll figure out in the coming weeks like what happens. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Three people were arrested after this incident, the person that they were chasing, who they have claimed two different people at some point, the man that Mia just referenced, as well as the person who was shot. And there's also this third individual who is allegedly the shovel wielder, which is not named in the FBI affidavit. Yeah. But all of these three people have been arrested. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:24:37 During a protest that same night, dozens of people broke into two parked FBI vehicles, finding challenge coins and U.S. Marshal documents. One person has been arrested for stealing a rifle from one of the vehicles. Bad challenge coins, much safer. Much safer to take. On Saturday, Governor Walls mobilized the Minnesota National Guard and placed them on standby to assist local law enforcement. if deployed, the guard will be wearing yellow reflective vests

Starting point is 02:25:09 to distinguish themselves from federal forces. Yeah, this is an interesting moment in and of itself, just the acknowledgement from both the military command and the governor that, like, yeah, you can't tell the difference between a soldier and a cop anymore. Like, we have to do this so that people don't think the army is the police. Yeah. Right, and it's a very, like, auraborous moment, too,

Starting point is 02:25:31 because you have just, like, the cops are dressing up like the soldiers. So the soldiers are like, oh, well, I guess we got to change how we dress now. Yeah, this could actually fuck up our ability to carry out our mission. Yeah. Further complicating matters. 1,500 soldiers from the 11th Airborne Division at Fort Wayneworth in Alaska have been placed on standby, with Pentagon officials telling CBS News that they are preparing to deploy to Minneapolis. Due to the 11th Airborne Division's Arctic Forte, there has also been public speculation

Starting point is 02:26:01 that this activation may be related to rising tensions over Greenland. but that has no basis based on what officials are saying at the moment. A Sunday protest in St. Paul disrupted a church service because protesters believed that one of the pastors is also the head of the St. Paul Ice Field Office, David Easterwood. Easterwood's profile on the church's website does appear to match the identity of the head of the local Icefield office. Later that day, Attorney General Pampondi released a statement, quote, attacks against law enforcement and the

Starting point is 02:26:35 intimidation of Christians are being met with the full force of federal law, unquote. The Department of Justice announced that it was launching an investigation into the protesters, including TV journalist Don Lemon, who was streaming inside the church, for possible violations of the Face Act, which makes it a federal crime to interfere with people trying to access reproductive clinic services or exercise their First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of worship. Harmet Dillon, Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, has also invoked the Klan Act

Starting point is 02:27:07 as a justification to bring a conspiracy charges against protest attendees, darkly ironic since this very protest was partially put on by Black Lives Matter, Minnesota. Yeah, that's also particularly wild, given, like, we've been driving around today and seen multiple churches with, like, Ice Go Home kind of messaging.

Starting point is 02:27:28 obviously those people are not going to be protected in the same way, right, if they choose to take care of migrants. Like, I don't think I've seen any churches with, like, anything other than that messaging in our time cruising around today. I haven't seen any pro-ice messaging anywhere, any pro-Trump messaging. Period. I have never seen a more united this city in my life. Yeah, it's genuinely remarkable, like, to see people who's,

Starting point is 02:27:55 I don't think they would, like, identify as having radical people. politics, but they are like out standing on street corners in the freezing cold just to try and keep their neighborhood safe. Yeah, this is the, this is the warmer day of the week. And I went and got all this like extra snow gear. And I live in the mountains, right? That is like where I live. And I'm standing there in most of my like extra snow gear. And everyone's like, today's the warm day. Everything is fine. And I'm like, I need to get inside soon. Oh yeah. I will die. Welcome to, welcome to Minnesota winter. It's, it's time. talking to a 76 year old with no hat on.

Starting point is 02:28:31 Yeah. 20 degrees? Incredible. Yeah. Warmed by pure anger. I mean, that is warm. She was ready to take on the world. It was really, it was genuinely really wonderful to see.

Starting point is 02:28:44 Like, we went out, we talked to these people for a while. Some folks stopped by and insisted on feeding everyone. It's really nice to see a community, like entirely in lockstep, taking care of one another. And I feel like to me, so far, like the actual headline around Minneapolis is that. Like, obviously there's like these instances of really horrific violence coming from the state or coming from the federal government, right? But the actual story that so far the people we've talked to want to get across is this, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, journalists come here and just want to cover all the bad stuff that's happened here. but this horizontal organizing and this like feeling of of togetherness and also more than anything else like I think even when you talk about the bad thing that's happening it's federal occupation

Starting point is 02:29:32 right and like people are very very aware of the fact that this is an outside force occupying the city and it um and so even like anything that's happening like individual bad actions taken by the federal police I think it needs to be understood that like no one here is by any other line besides, no, this outside forces here to steal our neighbors. Right. And us. You'll go past, like, fancy coffee shops and random, like, like, businesses. Like, I've seen businesses before having signs that say, like, refugees welcome and we cherish

Starting point is 02:30:08 our migrant neighbors. But the ones here also say, like, ice get out of town. Ice go home. We don't want you here. Like, people are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:30:16 Like, people are not having it to a degree which, like, I don't think. think I've seen, you know, I wasn't in Chicago during the time that I was there, I was in Los Angeles. But like every neighborhood here feels like the neighborhoods sort of most in lockstep in those cities, right? Every neighborhood we've been to, right? Like in heavily Latino neighborhoods where I live, yeah, everyone's watching out for each other. And in San Diego, that is, like here and every single neighborhood, everyone is watching out for each other from what we've seen. And like, it is folks of every age and demographic standing on street corners in the freezing cold, just pulling a shift to keep an eye out. It's remarkable. Yeah. I was like, there's no way people are like, oh,

Starting point is 02:31:00 every neighborhood has like a neighborhood watch. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. There's like two people per neighborhood wandering at any given time. Like, I was like, how can you watch a whole city? And like, oh, the answer is everyone in the city does it. Yeah. That's the story that I want people to take from this is that like nobody here wants this. And then, not just like angry and going on the internet. They're angry and getting to know their neighbors, going and organizing each other, taking care of one another, and doing the things that they can do to keep each other safe. During Trump's 365 days in office press conference this past Tuesday,

Starting point is 02:31:38 he discussed the killing of Renee Good and expressed hope that Good's parents would continue to support President Trump. Let's watch the play. Yeah, come on. I haven't seen it. Well, you are unlucky enough to see it now. No. Let's do it live. It's gross.

Starting point is 02:32:00 It's weird. Garrison's Booting UpX.com, the everything website. And, you know, they're going to make mistakes sometimes. Ice is going to be too rough with somebody or, you know, they're dealing with rough people. They're going to make a mistake sometimes. It can happen. We feel terribly. I felt horribly when I was talking about.

Starting point is 02:32:20 that the young woman who was had the tragedy it's a tragedy it's a horrible thing everybody would say dice would say the same thing but when I learned her parents and her father in particular is like I hope he still is but I don't know was a tremendous Trump fan he was all for Trump love Trump and you know it's terrible I always told that By a lot of people, they said, oh, he loves you. He was a, I hope, I hope he still feels that way. I don't know. That's a hard, hard situation.

Starting point is 02:32:58 But her father was a tremendous, and parents were tremendous Trump fans. I'd so sad. It just happens. It's terrible. What is there even to say, you know, what do you, how do you the fuck? Yeah. It's interesting that he's, he seems to be capable of, like, legitimately being a, upset at the thought of one of his fans not liking him anymore.

Starting point is 02:33:23 Yeah. Like, that's weird. The fact that he, like, he brings it up in a way that suggests, like, there's no artifice there, right? Yeah. Like, that's, that's the genuineness of like, oh, he actually seems to be slightly disturbed at the thought of one of his fans no longer liking him, even though his secret police murdered that guy's daughter.

Starting point is 02:33:42 That's fascinating. It doesn't change anything. Like, I don't know. There's nothing to do with that information. But it's a fascinating, understanding. understanding Donald Trump's mind data point. Yeah. No, it is one of the weird things where you kind of see him be sincere and genuine briefly,

Starting point is 02:33:58 but it's for such a fucking weird thing. It's such a weird thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he understands that you're like, well, you know, maybe he doesn't like me anymore, but I hope he does. Yeah, this would be a reason to change his opinion of me, but yeah. I murdered his child. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:34:18 Yeah, I don't know what else to say. say about that. Yeah. I didn't either. So part of the whole reason why ICE is doing this operation in Minnesota, Operation Metro Surge, this was started in part due to allegations of COVID relief fraud among the Somali community in Minnesota. Ice director Todd Loins went on Fox News earlier this month in the lead up to ICE's mass deployment to address this. You know, one thing I were really focused on is the fact that unfortunately, with Minnesota's sanctuary laws and jurisdictions, it attracts these type of fraudsters. It attracts people that do take money away from the hardworking Americans and the people of Minnesota. We want to help root out these people that are committing fraud.

Starting point is 02:35:03 And you look at the billions of dollars that potentially could have been stolen, that could have gone to foreign terrorist organizations. That's what we're really focused on. So we're hoping to get to the bottom of that. So as ICE is currently hoping to get to the bottom of this fraud problem in Minnesota, Minnesota, just this past week, Trump has pardoned at least 11 white-collar fraudsters. I think we can all agree. The biggest problem with that clip was the typo in ICE at the bottom, where Fox News didn't put the period after the E in ice, but they put the period after the I and the C. I think we can all agree. Yeah. Get on it, Todd. Actually, Fox News is hiring a graphic design position in New York right now. So if you want to

Starting point is 02:35:48 apply to fix the graphics. See you later, losers. Can you use Chad GPT? They probably did. He has a job for you. Let's go on break and then talk about, as Trump calls it, Iceland. Jesus. Sure.

Starting point is 02:36:17 And we're back. First off, if you need to tell the difference between Greenland and Iceland, just remember the words of wisdom from either the first or the second Mighty Ducks movie, right? quack quack Greenland is icy and Iceland is nice is the way to remember the two Well you can't spell nice without ice

Starting point is 02:36:38 Robert That's what I call it in Iceland Yeah yeah That's how you tell the difference That's a little tip for the president And everyone else I guess Trying to remember That's probably

Starting point is 02:36:47 That's how I've known the difference My entire life And it's almost certainly Because of watching The Mighty Ducks The Mighty Ducks Yeah exactly The Mighty Ducks films Sorry

Starting point is 02:36:55 Yeah shout out to my Iceland friends I enjoyed Iceland very much. Shout out to whoever made the Mighty Ducks. Yeah. I know the knowledge of their creation has been lost in time. It was actually the whole thing was actually a propaganda film by the Iceland tourist industry. A little known fact. That's right.

Starting point is 02:37:12 Big Iceland. We are reporting this on the day that it looks like Donald Trump may have just blinked. He put up a truth announcing that he had reached an arrangement with NATO and that tariffs would not be necessary against all of Western Europe, basically. It's kind of unclear the details of this deal. He's saying that it's a big permanent thing. The U.S. has, you know, sorted out its security needs. It doesn't seem like we're going to be invading Greenland.

Starting point is 02:37:42 But, you know, it's also Donald Trump, so we could be in a very different position tomorrow. But that's kind of the big update right now. Yeah, let's talk about kind of the lead-up to this moment, I suppose. Sure. Multiple EU nations and Denmark have sent troops to agree. the past two weeks for the Arctic endurance military exercise aimed at countering Russian security threats and to demonstrate that European NATO countries have the capacity to defend Arctic territory

Starting point is 02:38:12 without the U.S. needing control over Greenland. Trump took this military deployment as a personal slight and levied tariffs in retaliation, posting on truth social, quote, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and Finland have journeyed. to Greenland for purposes unknown. This is a very dangerous situation for the safety, security, and survival of our planet. Those countries who are playing this very dangerous game have put a level of risk in play that is not tenable or sustainable. Therefore, it is imperative that in order to protect global peace and security, strong measures be taken so that this potentially

Starting point is 02:38:53 perilous situation end quickly and without question." Unquote. He then, 10% tariffs against all of these nations, which would increase to 25% next month. Yeah, I guess my gut feeling is, you know, to reef, I mean, I like it. But beyond that, this is kind of just what Trump does now, right? Is he threatens everyone with like whatever the nuclear option is short of the literal nuclear option, which in this case is nuking global trade. And then it kind of blows up in his face because the EU actually has the ability to collapse the dollar status as a reserve currency. And the money wardens of the world are aware of that, which is why the Dow plunged 800 points yesterday. And probably why Trump felt pressured to

Starting point is 02:39:41 come to an accommodation with NATO. I don't know that he ever literally planned on invading, although at this point, I think you can't take that out of the equation. But like this is just what he does now, right? Like, none of this is, it. It's, it's. Like, it's wild because he might have literally bombed a fucking NATO member. But I don't know what to say other than that. Yeah. I can explain a little bit more about the, the unhinged series of messages that Donald Trump has been sending to various world leaders.

Starting point is 02:40:12 God. We know about these because they have all been released, right? Fantastic from planetary security. Yeah. Posting is French tax. What? Not just that right. The Norwegians released the text that was sent by him to Norwegian Prime Minister, right?

Starting point is 02:40:30 Like, the Norwegians, they're not normally like an impulsive nation. That's not what people know the Norwegians for now. They don't make big swings on the international scale very, very much, but they have done this time. So I'm just going to quote, right, from his message to Norwegian Prime Minister, quote, considering your country decided not give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped eight wars plus, plus is all in caps. I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of peace, although it will always be predominant,

Starting point is 02:41:00 but can now think about what is good and proper for the United States of America. Then Trump released a text from Mark Rutter, the NATO Secretary General, that read, quote, Mr. President, dear Donald, what you accomplished in Syria today is incredible. We will get on to that.

Starting point is 02:41:17 Return to the quote, I will use my media engagement to Davos to highlight your work there in Gaza and in Ukraine. I am committed to finding a way forward on Greenland. Can't wait to see you. Do you have the French text as well? It's a French text. I do.

Starting point is 02:41:33 I don't have it in here, but yes, the Macron text message I'm more than happy to read because that one was pretty funny, actually. So we are totally in line on Syria. We can do great things in Iran. Interestingly, none of these sentences end with any punctuation. No punctuation. No punctuation. Macron is joicing it.

Starting point is 02:41:51 Unnecessary. Not helpful. So I'll just read them in one continuous breath. I do not understand what you're doing on Greenland. Let us try to build great things. One, lowercase I can set up a G7, lowercase G, meeting after Davos in Paris on Thursday afternoon. I can invite the Ukrainians, the Danish, to Syrians and the Russians in the margins. Two, let us have a dinner together in Paris together on Thursday before you go back to the US.

Starting point is 02:42:17 Emmanuel. Lots of lowercase in there actually. None of the country is getting up a case. Imagine setting your... situation ship this text and then he just posts it on true social. Yeah. It's so violated. Well, that's what's so weird to me is that this is almost word for word the text I sent

Starting point is 02:42:32 James last week. It's true. I've posted it on a new website. Carry on. I do not understand what you were doing on Greenland. Yeah. That sentence just floating on its own. It's magnificent.

Starting point is 02:42:52 It's magnificent. It's magnificent. also like, yeah, that is how basically everyone feels like, man, I don't know what you're doing on Greenland. Like, what, what is actually happening here? I mean, what do you do when, like, there's a petulant child who also has a handgun? Or a nuke. You know, and you're just like, shut up, kid. Oh, wait, no, you could shoot me. Yeah. No, it's time for nap. Yeah, this is why I have, like, you know how hotels have those, like little sprinklers in the roof? I've got one of those just for CS gas. Yeah. Yeah. Just to keep, just to clear out the house in case, you know, you got to call them

Starting point is 02:43:23 everybody down. That's what we need for the country. Yeah. Yeah. We all need a little holiday. Let's talk about Greenland, right? Greenland is a semi-autonomous territory of Denmark. It was a colony, and then over the 20th century, Greenlanders became Danish citizens, and now they have like the semi-autonomous situation where they have a lot of home rule, but they are still part of Denmark. Denmark, of course, is part of the EU and of NATO, so therefore they are part of the EU and part of NATO, right? As we said earlier, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Netherlands, and the UK have all sent very small numbers of troops to the territory in the past couple of weeks. But the US is the one that has the most troops on Denmark, right? Because the United States

Starting point is 02:44:06 has a base. They've kept this base there since World War II. It was there in World War II because the Nazis occupied Denmark, right? And then the United States garrisoned Greenland. Because it does have, like, they're not wrong in saying it has an important strategic position right where it is. No, it's really well located and the reality of, again, this is another mark in the column of like conservatives pretending climate change isn't real and acting based on the realities of climate change. Because of the warming oceans in that part of the world, it's going to become much more navigable. It used to not be as strategic because there was just less possibility of moving naval assets through the area. And now that that's not going to be a

Starting point is 02:44:47 problem because the world's warming and there's going to be less ice there, Greenland has much more, a much higher, like, strategic value, just in terms of, like, as a place to have, as a potential naval choke point, right? Are you saying that the people who named it were actually being prescient? Ahead of the curve? Yeah. Yeah, they were ahead of the curve. They weren't just trying to stop people from coming to Iceland.

Starting point is 02:45:08 They forsoor it in the ruins. Yeah. So the U.S. it used to be called Tula Air Force Base. And essentially the U.S. has the right, according to the defense. Treaty with Greenland to use Greenland to defend itself and to defend the Arctic, right? So what they previously had there during, they kept the base during the Cold War because it was where they would be able to identify missile launches coming from the former Soviet Union or what was at the time the Soviet Union, right? And then they could intercept from there, with their Air Force base. They now, it is now a Space Force base. Yeah. It's now the Petufix

Starting point is 02:45:43 Spaceball space. Yeah. And the US can expand. or garrison this base as it needs to, right? Like, the majority of Greenland, it's all occupied, right? But it is not, like, I guess, urbanized or built upon, right? The US could expand this base. It could add more assets to this base, but the United States has decided that it's not enough and that it needs total sovereignty over Greenland. So there are a few ways it could achieve that, and we should just, like, be explicit about those, right? The first is obviously by direct military action. That still seems relatively unlikely, but who knows these days? Hopefully. Yeah. There is an influence campaign that they're trying, right? They're attempting to influence

Starting point is 02:46:26 Greenlanders into wanting to become American. The polling data I've shown so Greenlanders do favor independence, but they do not favor joining the United States. They wouldn't mind leaving Denmark. And also overwhelmingly, when presented with a choice between the United States or Denmark, would prefer to remain part of Denmark. Yeah. Yeah. That situation right now is one that, like, they don't want to go out the frying pan into the fire, so to speak, I guess.

Starting point is 02:46:53 Yeah. For reasons that make no sense to me is I text my friend about the doctor visit they can't afford. Yeah. Like, it's interesting seeing those interviews where they're like, why would we want that? We've seen what you people have for health care. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:47:05 What is the appeal of being American? If Denmark has any spaces, California, you know, we'll join you. So, yeah, the other. option would be to purchase it, right? Which is not on the card. It's like Greenland is not for sale. So, yeah, Mia, do you want to talk about this tariff campaign? They've been suggesting that they're going to leverage?

Starting point is 02:47:25 Wait, wait a second. What's that, James? Did you say? By God, it's Mia Wong's music. Yeah. I bet you would have picked that. We asked Mia what she wanted. It's amazing.

Starting point is 02:47:53 She went into a room. She wrote down music notes on a piece of paper, and she came out with something that turned out someone else had done it before. Well, we couldn't license Barracuda, so this is what we got. We actually were not trying to make a parody. This is one of those things like the evolution of the bow and arrow. We just kind of independently recreated Rock the Casbah, but based around tariffs from first principles. It's the carcinization of songs.

Starting point is 02:48:16 That's right, carcinization of songs. All music becomes Rock the Casbah. If you had given it enough time. Give it long enough on the Galapagos Islands. That's what we sent Mia to write a song. She was on the Galapagos Islands for a long time. That's right. It was very nice there.

Starting point is 02:48:29 So speaking of things changing very, very quickly. So two days ago, as we are recording this, Trump was interviewed about these tariffs he was going to impose by, I think it was NBC. And he said, quote, I will 100%. It is not Wednesday and he has backed off of the tariffs. Tomorrow, truly who can say. Who knows? Who knows? I think it's kind of worth noting.

Starting point is 02:48:56 as of right now when we're recording this, everyone is kind of treating this as if this is over, but except for the German finance minister who said, quote, it's good they are engaged in dialogue. We have to wait a bit and not get our hopes up so soon. Yeah. Which is significant.

Starting point is 02:49:12 That's the smart play too. Yeah. Yeah. And this is significant because Germany, as we'll get to in a second, Germany has been one of the major EU countries that does not want to deploy what is being called. And I can't believe I'm saying this.

Starting point is 02:49:26 the trade bazooka. So, it's called the day, every single article today is called, what is the trade bazooka? It's okay. We're all asking ourselves that, aren't we? Okay. So before we get to the trade bazooka, it's worth noting that in terms of the retaliation that has been being planned by the EU against the U.S. for trying to do this, there's

Starting point is 02:49:48 actually two different things on the table. One is a package of tariffs that we've actually talked about before on this show that was the package of tariffs, the EU. developed as part of the trade negotiations. Well, basically, it was developed in response to Liberation Day tariffs last year. They'd been suspended as part of trade negotiations with the U.S. and the U.S. and the EU had finally reached an agreement. And then Trump said this and the EU backed out.

Starting point is 02:50:13 So who knows what the tariff status is going to be? And if the EU and the U.S. are going to continue to have come to this agreement, that was supposed to stave these things. So these retaliatory terrorists are supposed to go into effect on February 3. We had just negotiated it not coming in. These are a bunch of targeted tariffs on a bunch of U.S. goods that are specifically designed to hit red states. The most famous of these is, for example, there's specific tariffs on like Kentucky bourbon and whiskey and stuff. But it also hits Boeing, a bunch of random consumer goods.

Starting point is 02:50:48 We just like chewing gum. It's on roughly $100 billion of U.S. goods. I think the biggest pressure points here are Boeing in general. old dynamics. There's tariffs on car companies. There's also very importantly, there was a 25% tariff in here on soybeans, which I think is a major leverage point because the U.S. continues to need a market to sell all the soybeans that China's not buying. And yeah, China ain't buying them right now. We just had another month where they bought none of our soybeans. Yeah. So these were the tariffs that the EU was going to put into effect on February 7th in response to the Greenland

Starting point is 02:51:21 tariffs. No. Okay. Sorry, let me back this up. This is a tariff measure that was originally designed back in May of last year in response to Trump's original right of tariffs. A Liberation Day tariffs. Yeah. So they've been suspended until now and they were about to just not go into effect at all. However, the EU immediately has been like, okay, maybe we are going to impose these ones. Ah, got it. Because of Trump's new Greenland leverage tariffs.

Starting point is 02:51:46 Yeah. I see. So this is one of the two options the EU has. The other option, and this is, okay, getting those tariffs would be a little bit difficult, but that's significantly the more likely option. The other option, the thing you've been hearing about, which is the trade bazooka, which was also my grinder screen name at the RNC.

Starting point is 02:52:06 Trade bazook? You either get it or you don't. This is great. This is great. Okay, so, all right, what is the trade bazooka? We're just going to move past that. So. That's what a lot of Republicans were asking themselves in 2024.

Starting point is 02:52:24 Oh, God. Google trending term in Minneapolis or wherever you were. Okay, so the trade bazooka is an anti-coercion instrument that was originally designed by the EU in the early 2020s as a response to some bullshit that China pulled with Lithuania over embassy stuff in Taiwan. It's a whole thing. I'm not going to explain it here.

Starting point is 02:52:45 But these measures are, I think maybe the most extraordinary measures that I've seen. These measures, if they went into effect, would be more serious than a Liberation Day tariffs, they are very, very difficult to enact. They require 15 of the 27 EU members, there has to be an investigation process, there's a whole thing, and the negotiations have to actually break down. And this is where it's really difficult because Germany, in particular, does not really seem to want to do this. However, Trump has played this very badly in the sense that two of his natural allies in the

Starting point is 02:53:22 are the UK and Norway who he just was threatening to leverage tariffs on. Well, the UK is not part of the EU anymore, but yeah. Well, forward, yeah. But those are his two European allies. Right. And the UK still has significant leverage inside of there. Now, what is interesting is that Macron has called for its deployment if Trump presses to, you know, move on Greenland.

Starting point is 02:53:48 So the question sort of is, what does this thing do? and the short answer is everything. The long answer is incredibly long, and the medium answer is if you go read the document, I read it. I'm going to roughly base my description of what it can do on Willer Hale, which is a law firm's version of it.

Starting point is 02:54:06 So there's 10 things they can do. They can put on tariffs. They can do import and export restrictions on goods. They can impose trade restrictions in general. They can impose restrictions on government, procurement, and contracts of what goods are bought by governments. They can do services.

Starting point is 02:54:19 restrictions. They can do foreign direct investment restrictions. They can do restrictions on intellectual property right protections. They can do capital controls of financial services restrictions. They can do chemicals restrictions and like sanitary goods restrictions. So they can stop the U.S. from importing goods to the EU. They can prevent EU governments from giving contracts to the U.S. companies or buying anything from the U.S. They can restrict American intellectual property rights, which I don't even know what that would do. I think that means that they can all pirate whatever they want, right? Yeah, right.

Starting point is 02:54:51 Like, I don't know. That rules. Spain did this for a long time. Yeah, it's like, we're firing the trade bazooka, and now you can use every Disney character. Like, Disney would rise up? Yeah, just flood the market with Mickey Mouse pornography. That is part of the EU's response package. I mean, no, that already falls under fair use, Straubbard.

Starting point is 02:55:11 Not the way I do it, Garrison. Not the way I do it. These are technically two different Mickey Mouse's, technically. No, no, no. I've been very clear about which Mickey Mouse is in my pornography. So, the reason this is being called, like, the trade bazooker, the nuclear option is that the actual, once this is enacted, which is very difficult, the actual limits on what they can do are almost on existence. They can, once they've targeted it, it can kind of do whatever you want it to do to the extent that they could, in theory, basically shut down all trade with the U.S. Why didn't they call the trade death star?

Starting point is 02:55:48 I honestly The bazook is not thinking big enough Like that takes out a tank That's cool Gene widely I think it's being called The Bazooko because the people reporting on this Haven't actually read it And have not thought through the implications

Starting point is 02:55:59 Of what this thing does Which is that like Jesus Christ The trade mutually assured destruction device Yeah Yeah it's Is it mutually assured destruction Is that what this whole thing

Starting point is 02:56:10 Is built around? Kind of I mean like yeah Because the EU's economy Will also lunge But Yeah So this was originally designed around China specifically, but it's designed effectively as a nuke, right? You're not supposed to have to ever get to the point we are invoking it.

Starting point is 02:56:29 It's designed to be a set of trade things that is so damaging that no one in their right mind would possibly risk it happening. Unfortunately, our president is Donald Trump. Here we are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the sort of nuclear option here. I want to mention one other thing, which Robert briefly touched on earlier, which is there's been a lot of discussion of a quote from a report by the guy who is Deutsche

Starting point is 02:56:56 Bank's head of foreign exchange research. And he's talking about how much treasury bonds is owned by the EU. I mean, a lot. There are primary treasury bond holders, right? Like in terms of foreign treasury bond holders. Yeah, yeah. Between that and stocks, it's like $8 trillion. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:57:12 And treasury bonds, by the way, the fact that the EU is like our primary foreign treasury bond holder, like treasury bonds and foreign countries holding them is why the dollar is the reserve currency. It's why if you are wanting to like ransom someone or buy illegal guns and drugs anywhere in the world, they're more likely to use dollars than euros. That is changing, you know, in the international crime game, but the dollar is still the default foreign currency. If people around the world need a currency that's universally valued, the dollar is is the best. bet and it's because of how treasury bonds work, right? Like, I'm oversimplifying, but that's a big part of it.

Starting point is 02:57:54 Yeah. So, okay, I'm going to read the actual quote here. In an environment where the geopolitconomic stability of the Western Alliance is being disrupted existentially, it is not clear why Europeans would be willing to play this part. To translate this from, like, banking into what is he actually saying? What he is arguing here is that there is the potential for these countries to stop buying U.S. Treasury bonds and effectively pull out of American assets. It's not quite that easy, but this would be the, what he's talking about is like is the end of the U.S.

Starting point is 02:58:29 dollar as reserve currency. And he's also very specifically, this is about the fact that the dollar status as reserve currency is a thing that is allowing the U.S. military to carry out these kind of operations. Yeah. Up until yesterday when he said this, the only people I have ever seen actually say this are, you know, I mean, economists who I like is people like David Hudson, David Graber talks about this. But like, this is a thing that you could only say if you were like a Marxist or an anarchist. And now you have Deutsche Bank analysts saying it. And this is something that was impossible like two days ago, that there would actually be serious discussion of, you know, using as geopolitical, tool, like getting out of U.S. Treasury bonds, which means ending the U.S. dollar is a reserve currency.

Starting point is 02:59:17 And this was a big enough deal that the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury is claiming that Deutsche Bank called him to disavow the analysis. Wow. It's unclear if that's true or not. But this, I think, is one of the things that really panicked them in terms of why Trump backed off was there are multiple nuclear options that are being put on the table for the first time ever. and I think that that and the Dow route was enough to just panic them for at least one day. And we'll see what tomorrow holds.

Starting point is 02:59:48 But this is a really significant shift in what is able to be discussed in terms of reactions to what the U.S. is doing. Well, you know what else is the United States? These ads. Another flawless Robert Evans moment, everybody. And we're back. All right. What else we got to talk to? Anything else happened in the entire world? I don't think so. Yes. Actually, there is two more Davos things very briefly that I think we should get to before we kind of end with some other updates on ongoing stories and situations that we've been covering on the pod for a while. But when Mia was talking about how this sort of analysis was only used by, you know, like Marxist or certain types of anarchists before that is now getting kind of paid lips.

Starting point is 03:00:48 service on a national stage that reminded me a little bit of Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney's Davos speech yesterday, which addressed some similar things on the fiction of the quote, rules-based international order. Jesus Christ. Holy shit. I mean, I agree with that description of the rules-based international order. Mark Connie's been reading my book. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:01:14 Let's take a lesson. We knew the story of the international rules-based order was partially false. That the strongest would exempt themselves when convenient, that trade rules were enforced asymmetrically. And we knew that international law applied with varying rigor depending on the identity of the accused or the victim. This fiction was useful. An American hegemony in particular helped provide public goods, open sea lanes. a stable financial system, collective security, and support for frameworks for resolving disputes. So we placed the sign in the window. We participated in the rituals and we largely avoided calling out the gaps between rhetoric and reality.

Starting point is 03:02:04 This bargain no longer works. Let me be direct. We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition. Over the past two decades, a series of crises in finance, health, energy, and geopolitics have laid bare the risks of extreme global integration. But more recently, great powers have begun using economic integration as weapons. Tariffs is leverage, financial infrastructure is coercion, supply chains as vulnerabilities to be exploited. You cannot live within the lie of mutual benefit through integration when integration becomes, the source of your subordination. Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 03:02:49 Yeah. It's really remarkable to hear the political leader of Canada being like, it was always very clearly a lie, the rules-based international order, where the United States exempted itself because it had power. But we pretended that this wasn't happening. We, like, acknowledging that, like, we ignored them breaking the rules

Starting point is 03:03:09 because it was convenient for Canada. Yeah, it totally worked out well for it. us until now. It doesn't work out for well for us anymore. It's like, I shit. It was us invading a rock. It was fine. But now like they might invade us one day. So, oh, fuck. It's really interesting. Just totally pulling back the curtain on this type of

Starting point is 03:03:27 neoliberalism here. Yeah. I love too, every time you get someone who would never ever give like anarchists or anarchist political theory the light of day, like independently come to a conclusion very late that is like that anarchists have been yelling about for you. Like, yes, It's a fiction. The rules-based international order is a fiction. All the, like, everyone's playing lip service to these ideas, knowing the U.S. has exempted

Starting point is 03:03:50 itself because hiding behind the big guy is convenient, but that's a bad idea. The thing that people who knew anything were saying when we invaded Iraq, which was, if you let them get away with this, no one will ever be safe. That's the way. And all those people got pushed aside as like, no, you're just being hysteric. Like, you're just being like that, you don't have like a real understanding of, of politics and how it works. And there will never be any kind of reckoning of people being like,

Starting point is 03:04:17 oh yeah, all of like the, all of the people who were like inconveniently critical were right 20-something years ago. They'll never say that, but it's fun to see them admit it like, you know, kind of obliquely.

Starting point is 03:04:30 Yeah, it sounds like he's been reading Charles Tilly. It's kind of remarkable. Carney did write this speech himself as something that he has come out and said, that this was not like some speechwriter who's pulling from like, whatever like, you know, neoliberal bookshelf is popular right now.

Starting point is 03:04:44 Like, he specifically wrote this himself. Yeah. I mean, he just cribbed from that book. I read as a kid, the emperor has no clothes. Like, or new clothes. So before the announcement of this ambiguous Greenland deal, which neither the European authorities nor Trump has really given any details of yet. But before this, Trump did speak at Davos on Wednesday, where he confused

Starting point is 03:05:11 to Greenland for Iceland and said that they called him, quote-unquote, daddy. God damn it. Play the clip. I'm helping Europe. I'm helping NATO. And until the last few days, when I told him about Iceland, they loved me. They called me daddy, right, the last time. Oh, God.

Starting point is 03:05:31 Very smart man said, he's our daddy. He's running it. I was like running it. I went from running it to being a terrible human being. Very cool, Mr. President. Based on the reporting, acknowledging that he multiple times, not just in this clip, said Iceland when he meant Greenland. Carolyn Levin, the press secretary, responded by saying, no, his written remarks referred to Greenland as a quote-unquote piece of ice. Because that's what it is, unquote.

Starting point is 03:05:59 So saying that he was literally calling Greenland like an ice land anyway. The emperor's totally wearing clothes. I don't know what you're talking about. What's that Mon Motha quote about they don't even bother to lie badly anymore? Yeah, it's the final indignity, yeah. That's the worst excuse I've ever heard. It's incredible. Ice, land.

Starting point is 03:06:20 I mean, it's got to be a remarkable thing to be in her position, right? And just be like, what the fuck am I going to come up with? Like, how do I, what are we going to spin here? Ice, pause, land. Space land, yeah. Land, one word. It's incredible. Wait, wait, you go, girl.

Starting point is 03:06:39 go off. Yeah. Wow. Later at the CEO reception dinner, Trump said this. Oh, God. You got good reviews in that speech. Usually they say he's a horrible dictator type person. I'm a dictator.

Starting point is 03:06:56 But sometimes you need a dictator. But they didn't say that in this case. Sure, my guy. Sure. Oh, man. Of course they didn't. I wonder why. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:07:09 Multiple times during this speech, he was like, if it weren't for the United States, you'd all be speaking German and maybe a little Japanese. It's like incredible. Yeah, how did he think, like, yeah, how did he think that, like, control was going to break down between those two countries? It's, we're giving Japan right? Well, on Sundays, it's Japan, and the rest of the time, it's German. Incredible. Yeah, Japan pulling up, like, your deadbeat dad to be like, look, this weekend, you're mine. If he wasn't a horrific monster, it'd be really funny.

Starting point is 03:07:41 We're eating sushi. He's so funny. He's our funniest president by a wide margin. Evil, but he's so funny. The way he pronounced Dictator, where there was like a slight pause. He legitimately has good timing as a presenter. It's actually two words, Sophie. He was saying Dick and then Tater, like the contraction of potato.

Starting point is 03:08:02 Yeah, like it sounded like he was giving a recipe. I was like, what are we doing here? Oh my gosh, Gary, do we have anything else from Davos? No, I think that's all for Davos. One of the funnier Davos is in recent memory. I agree. Yeah. Now we just have some sad news that James is probably going to say.

Starting point is 03:08:23 Yeah, so I guess if we start with Iran, right, protests are continuing. The BBC had a piece today where they were leaked to photos of hundreds of the people who have been killed. Jesus. There's 326,000, including 18 women. The reason that they were able to get these images is it seems that people went to the mortuary and had to look through a slideshow of the faces of people who have been killed, many of whom are so disfigured that they're unrecognizable. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:08:57 And they have to flick through hundreds of images of these brutalized human remains. in order to try and identify their loved ones, right? It is unimaginable, the scale of state violence. Gorda'in had an interview on his Twitter or his ex.com, right, that with people with someone inside Iran, which I'd encourage people to read and which we'll link in the show notes. But, like, people continue to be in the streets there, and the state continues to meet them with absolutely horrific.

Starting point is 03:09:33 violence. Yeah. And talking of horrific violence, I want to move now to Syria, right, specifically to Syria and Kurdistan and the, I guess, majority Arab parts of Syria that had previously been part of the autonomous administration of north and east Syria, right? Last week, we talked about fighting in Aleppo. And then we spoke about, like, fighting moving towards Euphrates, right? Fighting has now moved past where it was last week.

Starting point is 03:10:01 and it's moving dangerously close to Kamishlo and Hesoka, which are the two biggest Kurdish cities. Hesika is not just a city where Kurdish people live, right? Arab people, neither of these are, right? Arab people, Assyrian people, Armenian people. Right. Yazidis. The AANES was a multi-ethnic project.

Starting point is 03:10:23 That's what distinguished the SDF from the YPG and the YPJ, right? That they were multi-ethnic, they weren't just Kurdish. Yeah. The way that this has occurred is that the Syrian transitional government has been able to flip multiple tribal groups who are mostly Arab, who had previously fought alongside the SDF as part of the SDF, right, but have now flipped to the side of the Syrian transitional government. So this leaves the SDF with previously units that have been there suddenly flipping. and they have lost huge amounts of territory to include Raqa, famously former capital of the Islamic State. Yeah, the former capital where thousands died

Starting point is 03:11:07 both as a result of IS violence and in the fighting for the city and as a result of civilians died as a result of coalition bombing during the fighting for the city, right? There have been absolutely horrific images of the brutalization of the remains of captured YPG and YPGA fighters, right, men and women, we have seen executions. This is not just that executions are happening. It is that people who are fighting not necessarily in the Syrian Arab army, but in at least alliance with the Syrian transitional government, have been so comfortable carrying out summary executions

Starting point is 03:11:48 if they have decided to film and share them. So on Monday, Maslum Abdi, right, the general of the Syrian Democratic forces traveled to Damascus to attempt to negotiate a peace and was not able to do that. It seems that he was offered some kind of position, but he didn't want the position that there was not also some kind of autonomy backstops for the remaining areas of the AANES, right? And so as a result, there was a general mobilization in the AANES. People from Bakur, so people from northern Kurdistan have crossed the border. There's a border wall, fence wall, depending on where you're at, in between Turkish Kurdistan

Starting point is 03:12:30 and Syrian Kurdistan, right? And at one point, people have broken that down and young people have entered into Syrian Kurdistan to fight to defend the cities that are still part of the AANES. The counter-terrorism group of the P-UK has entered Syrian Kurdistan. That's quite surprising, right? Huh. Yeah. Which is the patriotic union of Kurdistan. Yeah. which is an Iraqi Kurdish political party effectively.

Starting point is 03:12:56 Yeah. That is not aligned. Oh, yeah. And they're not lefty, right? Or they're not Democratic and Federalist? No. They were at some point, like, they are now today basically like an arm of the Kurdish, quote unquote, state in northern Iraq, right?

Starting point is 03:13:12 They were originally more of an actual political party and did have some socialist elements. That's not really super relevant to what's going on. Yeah, the ideology is not the same as the idea. that you have seen in Mirashava, right? Yeah. But like I have, not since Kobani, have you seen more unity of Kurdish people, regardless of politics, right? Like I saw a statement from, they'll see stuff from Basani, from Talibanis.

Starting point is 03:13:38 So these are the two major political figures in Iraqi Kurdistan. I've seen Kurdish religious leaders making statements, right? Because people are afraid of an ethnic cleansing. Yeah. Because they have seen the ethnic cleansings of the Druze and the. a la whites that have already happened under the STG, right? It's worth noting, I guess, at this point, like, for whatever reason they have not chosen to remove the name Arab from the country's

Starting point is 03:14:02 name, like a Syrian Arab Republic. And I think, like, that Syria is a multi-ethnic and very diverse country. And if it is to succeed under any form of administration, it needs to acknowledge that, right? And it's really worrying to see this, like, horrific inter-ethnic violence. and it is being massively accelerated by people in the media, right? To include a lot of people who might be referred to as experts, I don't think that's a reasonable appellation. Their expertise is pretty limited,

Starting point is 03:14:36 but nonetheless people who, like to include journalists, telegram influencers, and then think tankers in the West, people are sharing things that are either not true or that have not happened. In this time, like telegram videos are actually not taken in super, Syria this week, right, that have taken different places and times. And we are careening towards this not becoming a fight between two different administrative projects, but becoming an inter-ethnic conflict, right? I think we're pretty much there at this point. And nobody seems to be looking for an off-ramp. Yeah. Which is tragic. Like, I was in Hesikka two years ago,

Starting point is 03:15:15 and I was conducting interviews there. And I remember there was a little kid whose father had died fighting ISIS. And like it was dark outside. This was during a time when Turkey was bombing the region quite heavily. And the little kid, I think, had been struggling to sleep because he was sleeping in the middle of the day. And then when he woke up, we were just hanging out with his mother and I gave a little kid some toys to play with it. I brought with me. And like, I can't help be thinking how scared that poor little guy is now. You know, and his dad's not there, right? Because like 12,000 members of the SDF, he died fighting the Islamic State, right? And now another state is is coming to put his family

Starting point is 03:15:51 his kid in danger. Like that's horrific. What people have gone through in Syria already is too much and like to see more killing and dying there is heartbreaking for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:16:04 It's very briefly on the immigration update. It appears that immigration and customs enforcement are now under the impression or that they believe that they can enter homes without the consent of the homeowner so they can use force to enter in order to remove someone with a final removal order so long as they have an administrative warrant that is a different thing from a judicial warrant, right? This is often what people talk about when they talk about

Starting point is 03:16:30 does ICE have a warrant, they're looking for a judicial warrant, as opposed to a warrant that they have issued themselves an administrative warrant. And so this will obviously broaden the amount of places that they can enter and times when they end up entering people's homes by force, right? so we will likely be seeing more violence here as well. Yay. Ooh. I'm going to put a link to a Haver Saw fundraiser at the bottom of this. If you'd like to help people in Kurdistan,

Starting point is 03:16:59 there are people who have been displaced four times now in the last few years, right since 2018. So if you'd like to help, you can do that. We'll also include a fundraising link for Minneapolis if you'd like to spend some money closer to home. Great. If you'd like to email us, you can do so by emailing Cool Zoh. Zone Tips at Proton.

Starting point is 03:17:16 If you want the email to be encrypted, you should send it from a proton address. Well, we look forward to hearing more from Margaret and James in Minneapolis. And I don't know. I guess that's it. We reported the news. Did we? We reported the news?

Starting point is 03:17:35 Yeah. All of it. Fuck yeah. That's kind of how it feels. We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Coolzone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Starting point is 03:18:07 You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. You know, we always say New Year, New Me, but real change starts on the inside. starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of checking in on the Black Effect Podcast Network. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season, whole and empowered. New Year, Real You. Listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

Starting point is 03:18:51 wherever you get your podcast. This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather. In 1995, my neighbor and a trainer disappeared from a commune. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. Back then, I lied to everybody. They have had this case for 30 years. I'm going back to my hometown to uncover the truth.

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Starting point is 03:19:48 Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. Whether it is getting swatted or just hateful messages online, there is a lot of harm and even just reading the comments. That's cybersecurity expert Camille Stewart Gloucester on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Every season is a chance to grow. And the Therapy for Black Girls podcast is here to walk with you. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. And each week we dive into real conversations that help you move with more clarity and confidence. This episode, we're breaking down what really happens to your information online and how to protect yourself with intention. Listen to therapy for black girls on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 216

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