Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 219

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 1969, Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. At a Morehouse college, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King's Senior.

Starting point is 00:00:20 It's the true story of protests and rebellion in black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Manilic Lamouba. Listen to the A building on the I-Hearton. Cart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama?

Starting point is 00:00:40 This Black History Month, the podcast, Selective Ignorance with Mandy B, unpacked black history and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown Act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Bowen-Yang.

Starting point is 00:01:08 And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, and the lead-up to the Milan Cortina-26 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bob, how now. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Kirkie.

Starting point is 00:01:24 Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in. in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What is something you've had to unlearn about love? That it's earned. That I was unworthy of love. That it needs to be forever for it to count.

Starting point is 00:01:51 February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself. and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boyceover podcast, and each week we're looking at love from every angle. Listen to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. On the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

Starting point is 00:02:17 or wherever you get your podcasts. Media. Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

Starting point is 00:02:40 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Garrison Davis. At midst attempts by President Trump to seize control of Greenland last month during the World Economic Forum,

Starting point is 00:03:00 administration officials started posting images of a penguin. On January 23rd, the White House shared an artificial image of Trump walking hand and flipper, alongside a penguin holding an American flag across a snowy tundra towards mountains bearing the flag of Greenland. The caption read, Embrace the Penguin. The flags look like poorly photoshopped stock images, while the rest of the image appears to be generated by AI. Immediately, this post sparked ridicule across various online platforms. based on the fact that there aren't any penguins in Greenland.

Starting point is 00:03:40 Erm, penguins don't live in the northern hemisphere, save for zoos and the Galapagos Islands of Ecuador. So, ha-ha, the foolish Trump has been bested once again in the arena of facts and logic. Except this White House penguin post was actually in reference to a TikTok meme that was currently going super viral. In mid-January, remixed footage from Werner Herzog's Arctic documentary Encounters at the end of the world,

Starting point is 00:04:10 featuring a lone penguin, breaking off from the flock and marching towards some icy mountains, started spreading around TikTok, synced to an organ cover of Lamour-Tajour, a song which has been adopted by far-right anti-immigration groups in Europe the past few years. This combination of music and footage soon spread to other short-form video platforms like Instagram, gram reels, with the featherless subject being dubbed the lonely penguin. On January 20th, a more explicitly political version went kind of viral with over 20,000 likes, with the addition of a Frederick Nietzsche quote, I know of no better life purpose than to perish in attempting the great and impossible, unquote, with the caption, Save Europe

Starting point is 00:05:03 Hashtag Remigration. That same day, an edit with 30, 6,000 likes by the TikTok account Epic History 32, captioned Do the Hard Thing, played the documentary footage with Herzog's narration, overlaid with images of historical figures and pop culture characters like Alexander the Great, Caesar, Joan of Arc, King Richard I, King Baldwin the 4th, Genghis Khan, Aragorn, John Snow, Luke Skywalker, and Spider-Man? An op-ed in Fox News by the daughter of Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, refer to these as quote-unquote Western heroes.

Starting point is 00:05:42 To quote this op-ed, in the film, Herzog shows a lone penguin peeling away from the safety of its colony and heading inland, toward certain death, according to Herzog. But the online right saw something else. Users, mostly male,

Starting point is 00:05:57 saw the penguin as a powerful rebuke of secular modernity. They interpreted the penguin, not as lost, but as a free thinker. To them, he was rejecting the colony. In today's terms, that means rejecting secular postmodern orthodoxy and marching toward a greater purpose, unquote. So, though Herzog in this documentary refers to this penguin as deranged,

Starting point is 00:06:22 as a meme, users identified with the penguin as a symbol of masculine rebellion against what they view as mainstream culture, and the solitary trek up the mountains as a metaphor for the struggle of the individual greatness. Clips of men on outdoor adventures and climbing mountains is Aethystra style, with the caption Be the Penguin, spread wildly online, the most popular reaching 4.2 million likes, and other penguin-themed videos getting hundreds of thousands of likes. The Herzog penguin meme piggybacked and partially merged with an older right-wing penguin-based meme video from two years ago of a drag queen asking a kid about

Starting point is 00:07:05 boys wearing makeup. The kid responds that boys can't wear makeup. So the drag queen asks the kid who told him that. And this confused child looks around and sees a cartoon penguin on the wall, points to it and says, that penguin over there. 618,000 likes. What do you think about men who wear makeup? You can't put it into boys. Who said? Uh, the penguin over there. The penguin?

Starting point is 00:07:35 This video and this figure of the penguin has since been used as a symbol for masculine resistance to the LGBTQ agenda. And this new penguin meme pertains to tap into a uniquely masculine urge, as explained by this TikToker who racked up 42,000 likes. I hate to be the one to say it, but the penguin didn't make it. But does that mean he died in vain? No, his life was not a tragic. It was an inspiration. He left a legacy most of us could only hope for.

Starting point is 00:08:16 It would be easy to quote Nietzsche here, but that wouldn't do it justice, that penguin spoke to something inside all of us meant. A desire for more to push our limits and see what we're truly made of. Sometimes our purpose is the impact that we leave behind. On January 23rd, the Department of War Rapid Response account posted,

Starting point is 00:08:38 be a warrior, embrace the penguin, with an AI-generated image of five men wearing the uniform of each military branch walking towards the mountains alongside a penguin. Secretary Kennedy posted a Make America Healthy Again, edit of the Penguin meme with the organ music over an AI video of RFK Jr. and a penguin walking to the mountains. On-screen text reads, The mainstream made us sick.

Starting point is 00:09:06 Choose the healthier path. The Health and Human Services Government account, quote, tweeted this video with the caption, locking in after watching that penguin edit. Unquote, soy-occupied government. An anti-immigration advocacy account created a viral AI image of a large, evidently prosperous colony of penguins gathered under the banner of multiculturalism. It reads that as a giant banner, juxtaposed to a lone penguin facing the mountains, and a sign reading,

Starting point is 00:09:39 Remigration Now. Across the pond, the London mayoral candidate for the far-right Reform Party in the UK, Lila Cunningham, copied Trump's version of the penguin meme with an artificial image of her

Starting point is 00:09:53 holding hands with a penguin walking towards some snowy mountains surrounding the Tower Bridge in London. The caption reads, Choose a new path for London before it's too late. The last, The last Penguin Post will consider is a video edit from the Department of Homeland Security.

Starting point is 00:10:14 It starts like many of the viral TikTok and reels videos with footage and narration from Herzog's documentary, which I will finally play here. But one of them caught our eye, the one in the center. He would neither go towards the feeding grounds at the edge of the ice, nor return to the colony. Shortly afterwards, we saw him heading straight towards the mountains, some 70 kilometers away. Inley explained that even if he caught him and brought him back to the colony, he would immediately head right back for the mountains. After the narration cuts out, the music continues as a fan camp-style montage, plays Trump, military helicopters, SWAT-style home raids, and ICE and Border Patrol arresting people.

Starting point is 00:11:17 The video is captioned, Americans have always known why, in response to Herzog's query. This post from the DHS asserts that part of the essence of America is breaking away from the herd and forging your own path. Those who don't understand Trump's desire to control Greenland at the risk of further damaging our geopolitical standing just suffer from herd mentality

Starting point is 00:11:45 and will never be strong enough to take the kind of risks that are core to the existence of this country. On January 24th, the White House posted, The Penguin does not concern himself with the opinions of those who cannot comprehend. For Trump, Venezuela, Greenland, Imperial Expansion, is an existential mission to achieve some mythic frontier greatness and only true Americans can understand why. The Fox News Penguin op-ed by Christian Nationalist,

Starting point is 00:12:17 Sean Duffy's daughter. Wow, that's a nightmare sentence. Reads, quote, For Trump, the penguin is an apt symbol for the president's decade-long fight against the radical left. Everything Trump does is opposed by the global power brokers.

Starting point is 00:12:33 Even the president's push to obtain Greenland has been fanatically opposed by hysterical European elites. America was built by penguins. And by that, I mean rebels, pilgrims, frontier men and women, conquistadors and cowboys.

Starting point is 00:12:48 We are a nation founded by risk takers who left the colony for the mountains. We are descended from men who suffered and died to carve civilization out of wilderness. It is our inheritance, unquote. Now, what this DHS penguin video doesn't include, but has already been alluded to by some of the other videos I've played,

Starting point is 00:13:11 is the actual context of this lone birds' journey and its sad fate. We will return to discuss penguin insanity after this ad break. We're back. Though the 2026 version of the penguin meme was dubbed the lonely penguin, earlier meme videos of this documentary footage from years past carried the titles deranged penguin or nihilist penguin. Before the footage of this lone penguin plays in the documentary,

Starting point is 00:13:54 Herzog asks a penguin expert if they can experience insanity. Is there such thing as insanity among penguins? I try to avoid the definition of insanity or derangement. I don't mean that a penguin might believe he or she is Lenin, Napoleon Bonaparte. But could they just go crazy because they've had enough of their colony? Well, I've never seen a penguin bashing its head against a rock. They do get disoriented. They end up in places they shouldn't be long way from the ocean.

Starting point is 00:14:41 The political invocations of this footage largely ignore Werner Herzog's own speculation on why the penguin is marching towards the mountains in the far-off distance and its inevitable fate. one of these disoriented or deranged penguins showed up at the new harbor diving camp already some 80 kilometers away from where it should be and here he's heading off into the interior of the vast continent with 5,000 kilometers ahead of him he's heading towards certain death the penguin is not the ubermensch the penguin will not achieve individual great at the summit of the mountain because it's never going to get there.

Starting point is 00:15:32 As friend of the pod, Dan Olson, so eloquently put it, the penguin is going to die. Though the penguin does not bash its head on a rock, this separation from society is still an act of suicide. The deranged penguin has literally turned its back on food, water, shelter, and the colony to die wandering towards mountains that it will never reach. The Trump administration's embrace of this suicidal penguin as a That's Literally Me figure is a shockingly open display of fascism's relation to the death drive.

Starting point is 00:16:07 It's just so naked to make your mascot a symbol of suicidal defiance against perceived cultural norms. They're doing a first-as-tragity twice as farce. For fascist death emblems, the Nazis get the skull, we get a fucking penguin. But the penguin is not the first modern American suicidal folk hero. The killdozer rampage of public destruction, which ended in the suicide of the perpetrator, has been a mascot for the libertarian right for over two decades. And in 2018, a 28-year-old airport ground service agent named Richard Russell hijacked an empty plane at CETAC to fly over Mount Rainier before killing himself by

Starting point is 00:16:52 purposely crashing the plane, very similar to Herzog's deranged penguin. Russell left behind a wife of six years, but became a sort of nihilistic folk hero to overly online young men, especially among the online far right on places like 4chan and telegram, where he was dubbed Sky King. Last August, a congressional Republican from Georgia, Mike Collins, who serves on the Republican Transportation Committee, posted a glowing, multi-paragraph memorial for Richard Russell on the anniversary of his suicide, signing off the message with Rest in Peace Sky King. But the direct identification of the Trump administration

Starting point is 00:17:37 with a suicidal penguin is a step farther. The fascist appetite for death is well understood, but the death drive represents a usually subconscious desire to not only harm or kill others, but ultimately yourself, an attempt to ease the tensions driving social life by returning to a prior inorganic state. This desire can be channeled through the politics of fascism, which allow for violent, paranoid manifestations of repressed internal contradictions, which attempt to be resolved through death. But fascism itself is a contradiction between a primitive war machine

Starting point is 00:18:20 and a stable state apparatus. And the way that tension is released is also self-destruction. In the second volume of capitalism and schizophrenia, a thousand plateaus, by philosopher Jill's DeLews, and psychoanalyst Felix Guattory, they discuss the ways in which fascism and totalitarianism

Starting point is 00:18:39 differ. They write that totalitarianism is a state affair made up of material components that overmanaged society. Quote, even in the case of a military dictatorship, it is a state army, not a war machine, that takes power and elevates the state to the totalitarian stage. Totalitarianism is quintessentially conservative. Fascism, on the other hand, involves a war machine. When fascism builds itself a totalitarian state, it is not in the sense of a state army taking power, but of a war machine taking over the state, unquote. This analysis from DeLuze and Guateri is building off of an essay by the French writer Paul Varylio called the Suicidal State, where Varylio argues that in fascism, the state is far less totalitarian than it is suicidal. An evolution of the state that, quote, no longer pretends to be guided internally by reason and progress, but rather non-progress and terror.

Starting point is 00:19:47 founded on the repulsion and fear of all development in this civil domain, unquote. This repulsion and fear were manifested in the accelerated destruction of state institutions during the first few months of Trump's second term, and Doge's scorched-earth approach to slashing government agencies. Verilio writes that during the disappearance of public service, quote, infrastructures of service are reduced as the wiretaps of the Vermeacht are, restored. Colonial geometry of decolonialization, unquote. So, as the federal government rescinds public services, the everyday presence of the federal government is reduced to masked armed agents in the streets, disappearing our neighbors and shooting civilians, while the president fights in

Starting point is 00:20:36 court for the ability to deploy the military against American citizens within our own territory. During the tension of total war or total peace, Varelio says, the system expands and reproduces itself a material process without an end, but no longer without limits. To quote the Brazilian philosopher of Vladimir Sveldeufatly, the suicide state, quote,

Starting point is 00:21:02 is not just a manager of death. It is rather the ongoing agent of its own catastrophe, the maker of its own explosion. To be more precise, this new state mixes the death management of entire sectors of its own population with an ongoing and risky flirtation with its own self-destruction, unquote. Virillio's idea of the suicidal state emerges as this new mode of governing to solve the crisis of post-war liberalism in Germany after World War I, as well as risked by the United States after each of our many wars.

Starting point is 00:21:52 quote, one of the keys to the present situation is on one side the overly informed status of experts of the system, and on the other, the under-informed status of all those who are supposedly thinking outside of it, unquote. Verlio says that the experts no longer know how to use their hordes of information except to gain money and status by continually adding to their body of work. Meanwhile, the outsiders produce the political and cultural undercurrent of modern folklore and ordinary life. But this limp dichotomy cannot last for very long on its own. So Varelia proposes the new emergence of a third category of people who make use of information for an end, the ultimate end, the directors of the suicidal state.

Starting point is 00:22:44 While the outsiders, ideologues, and artists, simply try to simulate catharsis, quote, by contrast, the third category, the suicidal state, itself produces a feeling for the real. Better, it aims to retain the exclusivity of its production. This feeling is a contempt for and a hatred of the every day, unquote. To paraphrase Varellio, the fascist project exploits, man's alienation from his environment through pollution, economic insecurity, emotional insecurity, desocialization, and seeks to replace any legitimate grievance he has with society with a more repulsive and expressive force, the fear of society, which is superimposed on a new military

Starting point is 00:23:36 schema of total war and internal invasion, all towards a nihilistic end. of dropping the bomb on ourselves. The oscillation of external and internal destruction, epitomized by the Death Drive, is mirrored by the imperial boomerang, where the violence of colonial expansion is forced to return to its homeland. Once home, the drive remains,

Starting point is 00:24:04 resulting in a war on society, directly or through other means. But this is a war on its own people, or as Trump would say, the enemy within. To quote a paragraph from a thousand plateaus, so-called total war seems less a state undertaking than an undertaking of a war machine that appropriates the state

Starting point is 00:24:28 and channels it into a flow of absolute war whose only possible outcome is the suicide of the state itself. There is, in fascism, a realized nihilism. Unlike the totalitarian state, which does its utmost to seal all possible lines of escape, fascism is constructed on an intense line of escape, which it transforms into a line of pure destruction and abolition. It is curious that from the very beginning, the Nazis announced to Germany what they were bringing.

Starting point is 00:25:04 At once, wedding bells and death, including their own death and the death of the Germans. They thought they would pay. perish, but that their undertaking would be resumed, all across Europe, all over the world, throughout the solar system. And the people cheered, not because they did not understand, but because they wanted that death through the death of others. Like a will to wager everything you have every hand to stake your own death against the death of others, unquote. In a thousand plateaus, DeLuze and Guateri, quote, an excerpt from Klaus Mann's 1936 novel, Nefisto,

Starting point is 00:25:45 which contains fascist speeches and ordinary conversations from Nazi Germany. The quote they include is eerily similar to the visuals of Trump as the suicidal penguin, quote, heroism was something that was being ruled out of our lives. In reality, we are not marching forward. We are reeling, staggering. Our beloved furor is dragging us toward the shades of darkness and everlasting nothingness. How can we poets who have a special affinity for darkness and lower depths not admire him? Unquote. De Luz and Guateri then write, suicide is presented not as a punishment, but as the crowning glory of the death of others. The insufficiency of economic and political definitions of fascism does not simply imply a need to tack on vague so-called ideological determinations.

Starting point is 00:26:44 We prefer to inquiry into the precise formation of Nazi statements, which are just as much in evidence in politics and economics as in the most absurd of conversations. They always contain the stupid and repugnant cry, long-live death, even at the economic level where the economic level where the arms expansion replaces growth in consumption and where investment veers from the means of production toward the means of pure destruction." Verilio calls this a psychosis which governs its entire politics of production. And he writes that the replacement of the American industries of the automobile and the cinema with the military industrial complex, quote, does not involve a rational, functional, or useful choice, but rather entirely psychological,

Starting point is 00:27:36 or rather psychopathological. It stems from contempt for and abandonment of productive rapport with the milieu. Every investment is made to escape from it, unquote. For contemporary reference, go check out the stock price of Palantir. And on the larger economic and international level, Trump's tariffs, his trade wars, and the self-destruction of the United States' geopolitical standing are all expressions of this suicidal state in action. Ferrelio claims the state of total war, where the economy of war has become the economy of peace, is facilitated by a transformation in the American sense of freedom, where, quote-unquote, the free as a subject, as in the land of the free,

Starting point is 00:28:26 quote, is no longer properly spoken of as a citizen. He has an anonymous organism, without culture, without society, and without memory. This figure has no historical precedent. Assistance has become survival, non-assistance, a condemnation to death. All liberation henceforth has, for him, invariably, the appearance of death, of the end, suicide or murder, unquote. This sort of freedom from social services, freedom from the state, freedom from assistance, as a movement of the death drive, also provides insight into people's willingness to and even desire to vote against their own material interests, especially when their political struggle has turned against society itself. Only in transformation of ordinary social life into the horrific, in the minds of the populace, can the fascist, quote, find their surest means of governing, the legitimization of his politics

Starting point is 00:29:31 and military strategies, and right up to the end, far from weakening the repulsive nature of his powers, the ruins, the horrors, the crimes, the chaos of total war, will generally only increase in scope. In Hitler's 1945 telegram 71, he writes, If the war is lost, may the nation perish. Here, Hitler decides to join forces with his enemies in order to complete the destruction of his own people. By obliterating the last remaining sources of its life support system,

Starting point is 00:30:09 civil reserves of every kind, potable water, fuel, provisions, this is the normal outcome of the politics of dialectical retreat from the man who had written the idea of protection haunts and fulfills life, unquote. Fascism hijacks the mechanism of evolutionary and revolutionary escape and reverts it into a mechanism of destruction. Instead of resolving crises, it produces constant crisis for it to feed off of, forming, as Deluz and Guateri say, a war machine instead of resonating in a state apparatus. A war machine that no longer had anything but war as its object and would rather annihilate its own servants than stop the destruction, to quote a thousand plateaus.

Starting point is 00:31:02 This is war not for conquest or revolution, but war as its own end. The hollowing out of public institutions and social services, the divestment from the milieu of life, leads people to turn towards the suicidal state as the only force of movement. Resting on, as Verilyo says, quote, the advanced exploitation of our instincts for death, a new totalitarian state defined by the constant assent of statistics toward planetary death. Crime and madness will no longer be the defects. The madman and the assassin are the legitimate children engendered and recognized by the suicidal state, unquote. And what phenomenon has risen in the United States the past few years, the conspiracy theorist, and the assassin? The embrace of total war and the campaign of civil fear necessitates a break from sanity and the bizarre strangeness of means that inevitably result in a self-destructive end.

Starting point is 00:32:10 Varylio claims there is an insanity at the heart of the fascist project. The imaginary potential of the fascist state arises, quote, from a finished world where insanity has become the goal of order, the very product of organization, unquote. There's a quote from Goebbels to one of his aides, Prince Frederick Christian. The world in which Hitler moves is a world of absolute fate. a world in which even success makes no sense. It's not a mistake that the White House has cast itself as a lost penguin marching to its own death.

Starting point is 00:32:52 They know the absurdity of their replies. They know the world looks upon them as insane. They know that they'll never reach the Make America Great Again Mountain. The self-destruction, ice, the tariffs, the broken treaties, are not for any great. purpose. The means are the end. This is total war, the psychological purpose of which is terror, which for the fascist is synonymous with peace. But let's not forget how Hitler and Goebbels finally resolved their contradictions. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled

Starting point is 00:33:47 to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart and I'm Catherine Clark and in this podcast we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Inelik Lamouba. It's 1969, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated, and Black America was out of breaking point. Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's Almemata, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest.

Starting point is 00:34:31 It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King Sr., and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people would die. In 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A-building on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen-Yin.

Starting point is 00:35:11 And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan-Cortina-2020 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen, hi, Matt, hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn? That it's earned.

Starting point is 00:35:49 That it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the voiceover podcast, and each week this month we're looking at love from every angle. I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed. The thing about romantic fiction, I would say more than any other genre of culture,

Starting point is 00:36:16 is that it's always put women first. My marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off. The behavior started to feel different. This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. I'm like, I would love to not hate the man. I'm sleeping with.

Starting point is 00:36:37 I don't know what that's about. Listen to Boy Sober on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your person. podcasts. So Trump is kind of moving like a bull in a China shop or rather a bull in a missile shop, you know, I think that's a more apt analogy. The system of government wasn't exactly benign beforehand, you know? Yeah. I think it really needs to click for people that Trump is not truly exceptional. Rather, he's a product of the normal that people say. seem to be yearning for.

Starting point is 00:37:20 Yeah. You know, and the other issues we're dealing with too. Yeah, I think like this is the crux of what comes next, right? It's like we have this like, I don't want to disparage people. We have this tendency in American politics, this liberal tendency, progressive liberal tendency, even to think that like basically things have been magnificent until the first week of November in 2016. right, that America was progressing on this like linear pathway towards total equality and justice for all and that what's happening now is an aberration. It's the idea that there's a few

Starting point is 00:37:59 individuals conspiring rather that there is a system which inherently creates interest which repose to our own, I guess. Yeah, exactly. It's like all of these these problems, the genocide we're waging long before Trump came into power, you know, the economic strains, people are feeling today that people have been feeling for decades for their entire lives, you know, the climate crisis that is only worsen this time has gone on. You know, all of this is a product of that normal, of that pre-Trump normal. And I still hear people ask, and you know, when are things going to go back to normal? When can we settle down? When will we go back onto the track of normal sea? And well, if you're listening to this podcast, I think you already know what time it is.

Starting point is 00:38:48 This is It Could Happen here. I'm Andrew Sage, and I'm joined by... It's James again here to talk about the new normal. All right, and welcome. Thank you, yeah. The new normal. Yeah. The ever-shifting normal.

Starting point is 00:39:02 Right. The phantom of normal and why it is that it's really not coming back. And why normalcy as a concept is actually pretty weird. So part of I think what feeds into this notion of normal is this myth of progress that people are obsessed with. You know, recently I read this book, Progress by Samuel Miller MacDonald, and I would like to do a review of it at some point for the podcast, but the short of it is that it gets into just how pervasive this concept of progress is

Starting point is 00:39:33 in kind of tripping people up and keeping us serving systems that don't serve us. You know, you mentioned progressives, earlier. And, you know, even that notion, I think, of being a progressive, he kind of calls that into question in the course of the book. Going from ancient times, talking about a religious sense of a promised land, to the sort of modern sense of a secular or technological progressive improvement, or a social progressive improvement, he identifies it as a story. And a story that's so powerful that it acts like a sedative. You know, we don't engage with the degrading reality, the world around us because we're

Starting point is 00:40:16 wrapped up in this all-powerful fate. We're bound to progress. It's linear that we are ever striving forward, you know? Yeah. And we point to examples of things like social progress. But as he quotes in the book, it's like what Malcolm X said, you know, if I stick a knife into you and I only pull it out three inches, that's not progress. Pull it out six inches, that's not progress.

Starting point is 00:40:37 nine inches of progress. Progress will be, you know, removing the knife completely and mending the wound. But I would take it a step further and say that is it really progress to go back to a state that already was? Is it progress to abolish slavery when there was a time when slavery did not exist? You know, going back to a previous default state is not necessarily contrary. to the natural. Same thing with patriarchy. You know, patriarchy did not always exist.

Starting point is 00:41:12 Eroading and abolishing the patriarchy, reaching a point where the limitations place on women are no longer there. Can we call that progress or suggest rectifying a previously imposed state? And so these are some of the questions he grapples with. And there's also, of course, the techno-utopian promise of, you know, we can in self-driving cars any minutes, you know, fusion energy.

Starting point is 00:41:37 AI, end in work forever. You know, all these things are blind to the social or ecological reality of collapse. But where else would you see, you might see this myth showing up in politics? I think I covered a good few, but I might be missing something. Yeah, like, I mean, it's almost in everything, right? Like, it's a fundamental myth of liberal capitalism. I guess, like, it also underlies a certain logic of colonialism, right? the idea that like progress towards the neoliberal state is this can be like the logic of explicit

Starting point is 00:42:11 or less explicit colonialism I guess but like you see it there too right like you see it in the the sort of do you see a lot in 19th century it's it's very explicit the idea to uplift civilize and Christian eyes our little brown brothers yeah the civilizing mission yeah yeah yeah the white man's burden and these things that like became very, very on vogue in the late 19th, early 20th century, I suppose. You see it a lot there too, right? Yeah, this whole notion, I think that even really starts with the concept of civilization. When you have that civilized other divide, that binary of the civilized and the barbarian or the

Starting point is 00:42:53 civilized and the savage and how that gets turned into this mission, that civilization expands, that you bring those savage peoples into the fold and you, slowly, you know, bring them up, make them upright men, and closer to being human than the state that they were in previously. And the whole narrative around that is what has, as it has evolved with time, led to the situation that they're in now. Yeah. And there's this idea as well that even when there are these ruptures in normal, that everything will go back to its right place. But as I hope people say, you know, history is a series of unprecedented things. You know, and one of the unprecedented things in history that I wish people would realize is not ever going to come back is that sort of post-war economic boom. You know, that 1950 era growth and excess that has become the default state that many people are striving to return to.

Starting point is 00:43:59 when in reality, something like that is a historical anomaly driven by artificially cheap and abundant energy. Yeah. You know, the normal people are talking about sometimes is just this 50 to 70 year fossil fuel binge, a binge that we are reaching the end of and I think a fantasy to believe that we can replicate for all the time. Right. Yeah, but it's the time that so much of the world that we exist in was created. and like people almost see themselves as like a different species from human beings in the in the 19th century, right? Yeah. They can't conceive of society that way.

Starting point is 00:44:41 Exactly. Exactly. And it's something that I've been dwelling on because like what a time to be alive to see, you know, personal cause being so ubiquitous. But the ubiquity of personal cause is an aberration, it's a historical aberration. It's not one that is likely to. to be sustainable in the long term. You know, even if there are electric cars taking a place of gas-powered vehicles and we run out of gas oil, even the materials necessary to produce electric cars are not always going to be

Starting point is 00:45:11 around. They're not always going to exist. We can't supplement each and every individual person with a car for all of time, you know? Yeah. So many of the rare earth minerals that are, again, quite rare, we've spent them on things that, things that may serve a novelty or an interest in the short term, but it's not something that we can maintain forever. I hear people talking about this AI bubble, you know, and it is in the sense of the financial markets, the financial aspect of AI and how it's affecting our perception of the economy

Starting point is 00:45:49 and whether that bubble is going to boost economically. But I'm more interested in the AI bubble in the sense that how long can this AI everywhere thing persist when the material is necessary to maintain it because it is material despite the sort of cloud marketing that gets associated with it, how long until we run out of those materials until those material needs cannot be sustained? Yeah, we keep shifting not like the goalposts, but like the terrain, right? Like, you know, we're, okay, well, we've run out fossil fuels, so that's fine, and we'll do electric. like, okay, we, you know, the electric actually relies on rare earth. Well, that's fine.

Starting point is 00:46:28 We'll find a different thing to make batteries out of rather than acknowledging that, like, we've created a system. Or we'll just go to space. Yeah, yeah, and trash another planet for another few hundred years. You know, when you're driving your truck and you have a lot of stuff in it, and it's hitting the end of the rev counter, you know, like you're trying to pass someone and it's bouncing. It's in the red zone.

Starting point is 00:46:48 Like, we've been running in the red zone. Certainly for most of this century, you know, since the Industrial Revolution, or certainly since the end of the Second World War and like sustainability is a phrase that's been co-opted but like it's just not possible to keep doing it. Yeah. I mean, it's really an anomaly, a blip in our timeline I would say.

Starting point is 00:47:08 And I think ruptures in that normal, see like the rupture we're experiencing now, provides an opportunity for us to, you know, take an exit ramp to kind of control the transition to control our descent. But instead, you know, it seems like we were just rapidly moving towards the, more forceful transition.

Starting point is 00:47:25 The transition made so by the laws of physics. And that transition, I don't think, will be nearly as pleasant as it could be. You know, that's why a lot of people call it collapse. And that transition is being delayed currently. Both the collapse of the material resources and also the collapse of the financial economic system. That stuff has been delayed by rent-seeking, by new frontiers of exploitation, by ramping up theft in parts of the world.

Starting point is 00:47:54 that were not as pillaged as other parts of the world or ramping up surveillance and violence to make it harder to resist, but eventually is going to hit, you know? And I hate that it makes me sound like a second coming of Jesus, conspiracist or something like that, just like, well, yeah, it's coming, it's coming.

Starting point is 00:48:12 You know, like I'm a prophet screaming into the street. But, you know, it may not be some kind of prophesied end times, but we are approaching that point, you know, where that sort of narrative of economic growth, going back to normal, you know, there's this big group project of making the rich richer because that rise in tide will lift all boats. You know, this story that everybody wins, that nobody will have to lose anything because the pie will just keep getting bigger.

Starting point is 00:48:43 It has to come to an end. It's amazing how long it's lasted, right? Like, certain group of society's been able to make the rest of society believe, that the pie will just keep getting bigger when the pie has got smaller for most people certainly for the last few decades but arguably, you know, like lives have become worse for us since the Industrial Revolution

Starting point is 00:49:17 in some ways, right? Exactly. And, you know, people will point to improvements in health and sanitation. Sure. You can have improvements in health and sanitation without all this other baggage, though. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:33 You know, or we can have improvements in literacy without literally poisoning our freshwater and bleaching our oceans and killing off biodiversity by the millions of species. Yeah, it's not a like a package deal, right? Like, we can have vaccination against diseases without having superfund sites. We didn't need one to make the other. It's not a like this way or the dark ages. Exactly, exactly. For example, all London had to do, I mean, I'm oversimplified, but all London had to do was stop dumping their sewage in the Thames.

Starting point is 00:50:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like it's a remarkable, it's not that hard. But like, just look at the disposal of hazardous waste and the way that rather than being like, huh, maybe we should stop making waste that will be hazardous for, centuries for the better part of a hundred years, we've just been finding somewhere else to put it. Yeah, just keep dumping it. Even as a child, I was like, what were we supposed to do with all these mountains are garbage?

Starting point is 00:50:45 Like, are we just going to keep on pile and it's up until we reach the moon? Yeah, it's like in San Diego. They used to dump it in the bay. There's a whole part of our bay, which used to be a landfill site. And like I like to free dive. Sometimes I would just be practicing or diving. in the bay or whatever, and like, you'll dive down and be like, the fuck is a barbecue grill doing on the bottom of the ocean?

Starting point is 00:51:08 Jeez. And people just continue to chuck shit into the bay, right? Like, even though we have another landfill, what we put it now. No, but you see, James, it's like, that barbecue grill was $7 on T-Moo. Yeah, right. You can't pass up that deal, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then when it turns out to be absolute crap, it will be on our plan.

Starting point is 00:51:31 it for longer than any of us. But we've created a system where there's no disincentive to buy a T-Mu barbecue grill, use it once and then throw it into the bay. And like, we can't see that that's a problem. Yeah, yeah. Because of how the system is set up, you don't have to think about, wait a second, why is a barbecue grill $7? You know, who is suffering so that this barbecue grill is $7?

Starting point is 00:51:53 Yeah, right, because we're so detached from that, right? Like, despite being so connected, we're also so far away from the people. people who their misery as a consequence of our consumption or of the system which makes our consumption the way it is. Exactly. And, you know, instead of thinking about how we can make society resilient, how we can reasonably and ethically and with consideration for seven generations, use the resources that we have and without endless throughput, our leaders continue to chase growth.

Starting point is 00:52:28 They continue to chase progress. perpetually like a cancer. Yeah. You know? And everybody's seeing the consequences at this point. The work situation is getting worse because these platforms, these employers are finding ways to game the labor laws. You know, we're seeing shrinking margins in certain sectors because when you rely on growth, when that growth comes to an end, there's nowhere else to grow. You have to squeeze what there is.

Starting point is 00:52:56 What's the phrase squeeze blood out of a stone? Yeah. You know, you have to force overwork, you have to inshittify existing services so that you can extract more subscriptions, more payments, more upgrades, whatever the case may be. The livability of entire cities has been wiped out because, you know, you have Airbnb and private companies holling out something as basic as housing for all. And so the pressures to keep the whole machine running just outweighs any long-term considerations. And like I keep saying, this normal was never sustainable. I will say, though, when we criticize the system, when we call it out and we talk about how these leaders are pushing things in a certain direction,

Starting point is 00:53:41 they are. But at the same time, it's easy to fall into this notion that they are manipulating the whole thing. You know, that they manage the system in its entirety. It's tempting to see the system as coherent. you know, to act like it's all piloted by one individual or group as some wise or malevolent parental figure. And, you know, these institutions, they all rely to varying degrees under the appearance of competence, right?

Starting point is 00:54:15 But I think what recent times has revealed is that things are a lot messier than that, that political leaders know that they don't know, but won't have. admit that they don't know or they don't know that they don't know. And in either case, they are pretending or believing that they have this grip on things, that they can anticipate and smooth out the shocks to the sister, you know. There are those who think that if they, they share the honest truth, that they could trigger panic into populace. So they think they're doing something, you know, brave and benevolent by not giving people all the information they need. And worse yet, they fear that by sharing all the information that's needed to make accurate decisions,

Starting point is 00:55:03 that they might lose investments, they might lose investors, you know, that the economy will take a hit as result. Yeah. That's why you have situations where, like, when the Texas grid field in 2021, the officials were insisting that it was stable. Yeah. Until it wasn't, you know. Or for the years that UK has had its water infrastructure is used.

Starting point is 00:55:26 continues to claim that things under control and sewage was still getting into people's reverse. Yeah. You know? Yeah, or like I think a lot about Flint, Michigan, where the water that people have to drink to survive is killing them. And this has been happening. We've known about it for a decade.

Starting point is 00:55:46 And there have been a series of politicians from both parties who have just been like, yeah, no, don't worry, we've got this cupboard. And like, we fundamentally have not got this covered. right, but the machine is moving so fast so no one person can stop and turn it around because the machine all just bulldoze him. Yep. It's not as steady as stable as it puts forward. You know, in fact, that whole image of the system as coherent, as steady as stable,

Starting point is 00:56:14 I think it also serves to keep us from defying it. Yeah. You know, because we get this sense that, yeah, this is this like this, this behemort, this all-powerful, of crafty an entity that us, male individuals can't really challenge. When there are things that we can do directly to throw, you know, spokes in the wheel, if that's the expression. No, it's something in the spokes.

Starting point is 00:56:41 Yeah, it's spanner, stick in the spokes, maybe. Right, yeah, sure, let's go with that. Would you say there was like a particular moment when you realized that nobody actually knew what they were doing, though? Yeah, I'm trying to think if it was like a momental recognition for me or like a sort of gradual one. You know, I think a few of the times, like, you see it a lot when you travel more, right? Because the perception that like we are helping here, we've got this under control. I think with immigration is a great example actually, right? Like, so I've obviously spent a lot of time with immigrants.

Starting point is 00:57:21 I think you see this. I remember in 2018, we had the migrant caravan, right? there have been many migrant caravans. This one was just coincided with a midterm in a way that allowed it to become like a political football. And the American government is like, we are stopping them at the border so we can check if everyone's okay. And the government in Mexico is like,

Starting point is 00:57:41 well, we are taking care of them. And you get there and you're like, fuck. Like, these people haven't had water today. And at that point, you know, I was already sort of predisposed to thinking that perhaps the state didn't have all the answers. And to be clear, the Mexican state is a lot more than the U.S. state in this instance and provided these people with a place to be, which it would have been much worse if they

Starting point is 00:58:02 hadn't had that. But, like, it was just this realization I was with a few friends. All of us happened at the time to be full-time bicycle people. So we didn't have jobs that needed us to be, like, in a place at 9 a.m. So that realization that, like, if these people are going to get water today, it's going to be because we go to Costco and buy all the water bottles. And then we ride back whilst slowly destroying the suspension of this pickup truck because we've got so much weight in it and give them out.

Starting point is 00:58:35 Like, because no one else is going to. Right. And like there's this whole world of NGOs and governments and states. And like it didn't matter, right? There's people still and have water. Yeah. There's a lot of room for direct actions too. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:52 And the powers are being not as competent as they may at first glance appear. In other words, if they say they have everything under control, don't believe them. Yeah. I think also that instability within the system is part of it. You know, it's part of how it works. It's part of what's necessary for it to keep going. The competitive tune of the capitalist markets, the shifts of industries that uproop people's lives,

Starting point is 00:59:34 just part of how the system operates, you know, the booms and busts and real estate. They all are ways for the powers that be to expand their wealth in some ways, expand their reach and sit in territories. And people, for the most part, just go along with it. You know, daily life is complex as it is without having to grapple with the full scale

Starting point is 00:59:55 of all the global issues. You know, the following the leader, just going along with what they say. say it does give you some psychological breathing room. You know, it's hard to grapple the existential threats that we face. I don't have time too in many cases. Right. Especially when you have an administrative strategy that involves flooding the zone

Starting point is 01:00:17 with so much mess, with so much drama with so many different controversies and lies and incidents that it feels like the best thing to do is just throw your hands up and you feel. And then I'm speaking both from the perspective of what I'm observing in the Julianian government and what I'm observing in the American government. But I see this attitude of arrogance, callousness, and corruption. It's like, they're not even trying to maintain a veneer of legitimacy or intelligence or anything like that. Studies go through. through the motions to provide the things that it claims it's necessary to provide, you know. But they're feeling at even that.

Starting point is 01:01:07 And they're so cocky about it. Yeah. They're so careless about it too. So they're smiling in your face and lying to you. Yeah. You know, people do see what's happening. And they respond in a couple different ways. You know, they panic, of course.

Starting point is 01:01:24 Mm-hmm. Or they fall into conspiracies. Or they deny that there is an actual. a problem. They continue to insist that everything is normal, that everything is fine. They double down. They hustle harder. They consume more. They carry on as if nothing's wrong. And there are those who see that something is wrong, but they see everybody else carrying on as if everything is fine. And so they go along as well, you know. Or there are people, of course, who disengage, who are burns out who are numb or just drifting or going through the motions, but only a portion have

Starting point is 01:02:02 turned to challenge the concept of normal itself, whether it is that they're experimenting with simpler living, developing some program for survival, some strategy, either for themselves, for their household or for their community, engage in mutual support. And of course, this is only a portion of the population because many of us like fish in water, you know, we can't really recognize the socioeconomic structure that we are within. It's hard to recognize what you are immersed in as a thing itself. And so you really in seeing and reading about alternatives, they can get a glimpse of this normalcy and question to realize the system is natural or inevitable. There's an aberration destined to decline no matter how much we want to believe otherwise, that the script

Starting point is 01:02:55 of working, consuming, carer, and accumulating property in all is a normal that is actually kind of weird. You know, like, it's strange that an entire society is dependent upon globe-spanning supply chains, volatile markets, and oriented entirely around the quarterly earnings of elites. You know, it's strange that whiteness, mailness, cis-heterowness, abelness, and ableness are treated as the default, the starter kit, even though only a fraction of humanity fits in any one of those molds, let alone the combination of all of them. You know, it's strange that normal is so narrowly conformist, with those who don't conform a marginalised. It's strange

Starting point is 01:03:36 that normal means an illusion of independence, the disguises the webs you will always rely on, that you can claim to be independent and say, yeah, well, I just bought that $7,000, grill off T-moon and not think about the well of relationships that brought that $7 T-moon grill to your doorstep and eventually to the landfill. You get to feel self-sufficient while the system hides the labour, the ecosystems, logistics, and the people who hold them you up. I'm just thinking now about people whose whole thing is being like homesteaders, but their homesteading gets in itself a performance for the global supply,

Starting point is 01:04:18 or the global market for distracting or entertainment or whatever you want to call it, right? Like, and they do not exist outside of those supply chains. Like, they are doing this performance of, like, independence because they are so codependent, right?

Starting point is 01:04:35 Like, they exist to generate, like, revenue or affiliate links or however influences make money, sponsorships. Oh, yeah. Oh, you're talking about the influencers, yeah. Yeah, like, there's a guy, who I remember like a year ago, because I'm like, I don't know, broken inside, I had gotten to an

Starting point is 01:04:53 argument with someone on X.com. Oh no. Yeah, this guy was like posing as a homesteader and like, you know, I grew up on a farm, right? Like I've spent lots of my life around like domestic animals and around domestic. Like I know how to fix things. I know what tools look like when you use them. And like this guy was very clearly just posing a series of photos. It just really, like, I don't know why that particularly threw me for a loop, right?

Starting point is 01:05:22 But like the idea that this guy is performing independence for a system he himself is reinforcing. It was just such a strange thing to understand. Yeah, a system he's dependent on. Yeah, exactly. A system he's entirely dependent on, like, more so than most of us even, right? Like, he makes nothing other than photographs that people look at it on their phones. he makes no tangible product. Like at least if you're a...

Starting point is 01:05:48 Right. You know, you can be a cabinet maker, right? Yeah, you install kitchens for rich people, but you know how to make things with your hands. This guy just gets a, you know, a saw that looks like it hadn't been used since the Edwardian era and stands around for photos next to a log. In the same breath, I guess, that I condemn that, I feel like the way that we deal with the end of this is the same way that we help each other get through.

Starting point is 01:06:15 the middle of this and the and the collapse of it, right? Like, I've seen people do mutual aid with such scarce resources and managed to make such amazing things, like, both in terms of, like, physical objects and in terms of, like, these beautiful things we do for each other. We're so little. And, like, the ingenuity that's still there, it's not like people have forgotten how to exist without TEMU, right? but we just haven't created a way, a situation where we have to.

Starting point is 01:06:50 And in mutual aid spaces, I sometimes feel like we already have the solution to this, which is to depend on and care for each other. It's just that we need that to be the way we do everything, not just some stuff. Exactly. Exactly. You know, the whole homesteading fantasy is it's very comforting. illusion and fiction in my view because if we're talking about going back to the land people who live

Starting point is 01:07:22 on the land who live off of the land they did so in community yeah you know very very very very rarely did someone live entirely by themselves without contact with anyone else because you can't be an axe maker and a carpenter and a cook and a you know a farmer and a hood and all these different things all of these different roles, a medicine maker, all these different things at the same time. That is why we as a species have survived and succeeded, because we are able to share our skills with others and, you know, collectively accomplish more than the sum of our parts.

Starting point is 01:08:02 Yeah, it's a fantasy. I was recently in a place called Chaco Canyon. I don't know if you've, if you're familiar with Chaco Canyon at all. No. But there's this idea, I think, that, like, pre the arrival of capitalism. That's how indigenous people lived. And it's just not.

Starting point is 01:08:20 Like, you know, this was a large thriving community. I'm interested in Chaco Canyon because I'm interested in what you're talking about, like a society which consumed at an unsustainable level and then collapsed and what came out of it. But what came out of it is what kept the working class people in that society alive throughout it,

Starting point is 01:08:38 which is helping each other, right? Like, yeah, sure, people had these little plots where they grew grain, also by doing their ceremonies, by coming together in community, they had something which could sustain them, even when the economic reality completely changed for them. And it's like it's that part that people forget, right? They think they can, yeah, they think they can grow their own food.

Starting point is 01:09:02 Yeah, you can, but when you need a plow, what are you going to do? You're going to buy a forge on Timo? You know, like, it's so detached from the way anyone has ever lived. Yeah, it is and it cannot last. And me personally, I would rather not wait until supply chains break down completely and stones wipe the slate and blackouts, cut all communication and I would rather wait for those things to create and sustain those networks of dependence, networks of interdependence, those local networks of aid and cultural practice and, you know, meeting of mutual needs.

Starting point is 01:09:46 There's a saying that the sort of hustle bros would say that your network is your net worth. And to that I must concur. You know, the community support and the shared resources are going to matter a lot more than your personal purchasing power. Being part of something is emotionally easier than carrying everything alone. They matter now and they'll matter even more in the future, as crisis makes the invisible all too visible. The normal to be remembered is an illusion, but once you've seen it, you cannot unsee. I think the departure from normal is an opportunity or chance to make something better, to be adaptable to the shocks that come with courage and with clarity,

Starting point is 01:10:34 and I hope that this conversation is able to put towards what I'm sure. sure that I'm not alone in feeling. That's all for me today. All power told people. Peace. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. If you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us.

Starting point is 01:11:20 Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Inalek Lamoma. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America was out of breaking point.

Starting point is 01:11:37 Writing and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia at Martin's Almemada, Moore House College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people would die. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

Starting point is 01:12:11 This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A-building on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen-Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys' Five Rings podcast,

Starting point is 01:12:32 in the lead-up to the Milan Quartina-26 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen, hi, Matt, hi, hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway.

Starting point is 01:12:46 way and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to two guys five rings on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn that it's earned? That it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want.

Starting point is 01:13:18 want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boy Sober podcast, and each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle. I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed. The thing about romantic fiction, I would say more than any other genre of culture is that it's always put women first. My marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off. The behavior started to feel different. This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. I'm like, I would love to not hate the man I'm sleeping with. I don't know what that's about. Listen to Boy Sober on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, friends, and welcome to the show. It's me, James, today, and I'm very lucky to be joined by Sam Hamilton, who is the Senior Litigation Staff Attorney at Asian Americans Advancing Justice Atlanta. Hi, Sam. Hi, Sam. Hi, James. Thanks for having

Starting point is 01:14:19 me. Yeah, thanks for joining us. And we are gathered here today to talk about the new proposals that DHS has to detain people in literal warehouses, right? If people aren't familiar, maybe you could start out by explaining what those proposals are and how they specifically relate to the areas where you're organizing in Atlanta. Sure. So around December of 2020, a journalist leaked a list of about 20 different cities across the country where ICE was intending to open new detention facilities in warehouses specifically. And this list contained the names of the cities and the expected or projected occupancy of each of these facilities. And so I live here in Atlanta, Georgia, and there were two cities on that list with warehouses contemplated.

Starting point is 01:15:29 One is located in the city of Flowery Branch, where the warehouse there is intended to detain up to 1,500 people. And the other is in the city of Social Circle, Georgia, where ICE intends to use a house that is over one million square feet to detain about 8,500 people. That's vast. Like, I think that this would dwarf the capacity of any, like, I'm trying to think if there are maybe prisons sort of bigger than that. I don't know, but like, in immigration terms, I don't think there is anything.

Starting point is 01:16:08 Yeah, I mean, you know, so for the last four years or so, I've worked with, I've worked on various different shutdown ice campaigns. here in Georgia. And for the last four years, I've been working with the campaign to shut down the Folkston Ice Processing Center, which is a nice facility in South Georgia, pretty close to Florida, but it's about a five-hour drive from Atlanta. And that ended up expanding last summer, but the number of beds at that facility was projected to be around 3,000. And at the time, that was going to be the largest ice detention facility in the country. So to jump from 3,000 to 8,500 is, yeah, it's massive, obviously.

Starting point is 01:16:54 Yeah. I mean, people want it, like, it's not fascism, and if it comes from the fasci-a-rain area of Italy, right? Otherwise, it's, like, sparkling authoritarianism or whatever. But, like, unless you're looking for, like, a gate with Arbeck-Markt-Fri on it or whatever, like, these are concentration camps. Like, that is what this is. it was really interesting in 2023 we had outdoor detention

Starting point is 01:17:19 under the Biden administration and like we didn't really have much coverage from the US media when we were participating in mutual aid there but we'd had a lot from non-US media like folks from Japan and Singapore and Italy and they'd just come and be like oh yeah this is a concentration camp

Starting point is 01:17:35 and then they'd write the story and be like they'd need to concentration camps and like I would never have got that past an editor in LA or New York to them it seems so self-evident now we're just doing it on an even bigger scale, I guess. It's terrible. It's shit.

Starting point is 01:17:51 So I know you've been organizing in social circles specifically, right, or part of an organizing group, I should say, that's been opposing this detention center. So I think it'll be really instructive to people, because these are going to be all over the country, and this won't be the only expansion of immigration detention we see in the next few years, I imagine, given the massive budget and the priorities of the administration. Can you explain a little bit about how that campaign got started and then the nuts and bolts of how this is being opposed? Yeah. So before I get into that, I think providing some context on who the social circle community is, you know, would be instructive. So it's a pretty small, it's a very small city. It's got a population of about 5,000 people, overwhelmingly Republican, overwhelmingly white,

Starting point is 01:18:42 and pretty wealthy. Okay. And it's about an hour drive outside of Atlanta. And in December of 2025, a news article was published in the Washington Post announcing, you know, the list of the 20 cities where these warehouses would be popping up. Yeah. And it was that article that told the residents of Social Circle and the elected officials of Social Circle for the. the first time that this ICE mega prison was coming to their community. There was no notice to the city by ICE or anyone in the federal government at all. Certainly no opportunity to

Starting point is 01:19:26 respond, no opportunity for public input. Yeah. So they felt really blindsided. Yeah. And I'm not from this community. And, you know, I've met many of these people only for the first time, you know, within the last couple months. But I think it was. would not be so far-fetched to say that some of these people feel, you know, especially the ones who identify as Republicans or as, you know, conservatives, I think they feel really betrayed by, you know, by their government, by their party. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of these people, I mean, I've just described the demographic. I think many of them have never been involved in organizing of any kind before. Some of them have, I think, but I think due to, you know,

Starting point is 01:20:12 their life circumstances just might not have found themselves in a place where they've needed to organize for anything. Yeah. So a bunch of these residents got together and have been holding, you know, in-person kind of town hall community meetings. And they held one in January where they were about, you know, I think 40 to 50 people in the room and they wanted to get together and, you know, just have a public discourse about what could be done.

Starting point is 01:20:43 Yeah. And I was invited to this meeting because of my history of involvement with shutdown campaigns here in Georgia. I got started with shutdown campaigns in 2020. Okay. When a nurse, a whistleblower who worked at an immigration detention center here in Georgia called the Irwin County Detention Center, alerted the public that there was a doctor. who was contracting with ICE, who had been providing medical services

Starting point is 01:21:17 to women detained in this facility. Well, he had actually been performing non-consensual and medically unnecessary medical and gynecological procedures on women in ICE detention. I remember this year. Yeah. And when these women spoke out about it

Starting point is 01:21:32 to their family members, to journalists, to their lawyers, to members of Congress, or staffers for members of Congress, they were retaliated against, by being swiftly deported. And I'm talking, put on planes within hours of speaking to a congressional staffer. And at the time, I was working at the University of Georgia School of Law's First Amendment Clinic,

Starting point is 01:21:56 where we were providing, you know, free legal services to people across the state, including, you know, helping people with getting access to public records and suing the police and, you know, and federal agents. Yeah. when they were retaliated against. And so we represented those women. And it was through my work at Irwin and, you know, connecting with the organizers there that I got involved with shutdown campaigns or rather the shutdown Irwin campaign here in Georgia. And then from there, later got involved with the shutdown folks in campaign. So I had been asked to speak to this group of people who I think were new to the immigrants' rights struggle and to talk about, you know, what it's like to try to prevent a detention center from popping up in their community. And like you say, like it's not a community that might traditionally be demographically the same as the people who we associate with like migrant advocacy,

Starting point is 01:22:51 migrant activism. I guess when a group like that comes into a moment like this, I mean, there are some areas of like activism, I guess, civil society stuff where like white suburban folks have some experience, right? Planning is one of them, right? like the reason bike planes only go north-south in San Diego is because they think that those of us who can't afford to live by the sea don't deserve to cycle safely. Like there are many other examples of this. But what were their like thoughts when they first met?

Starting point is 01:23:26 I'm really interested to know they're like they're obviously upset and they feel abandoned and betrayed. But like how did they want to organize to prevent this? Well, a lot of them were upset about the decrease in their property value. That was what was really bringing them. Yeah, that was the radicalizing moment. Same with the bike lanes, actually. Oh, yeah, I bet. And, you know, but in addition to the property value stuff, it's also, you know,

Starting point is 01:23:54 the strain that this would impose on their small community. I mean, you know, a number of the people who live there might be of, you know, well-to-do means. You know, their city police department employs a total of 14 officers, and they have two on duty at any given time. They have a fire department of, you know, comparably, you know, small size. And they have, you know, water and sewer infrastructure that was built to accommodate about as many people as live there now, you know, between 4,000 and 5,000 people. Yeah. And it's that impact. that is also, you know, really maddening and activating and agitating to people.

Starting point is 01:24:40 Those arguments are not new to us who have organized in South Georgia, in also very red areas, a lot more rural and a lot less wealthy. Yeah. You know, we'll try to, we've canvassed door to door in the city of Folkston to try to ask people, how do they feel about this mega-prison opening up in their community? and a lot of people, you know, were against it, despite the fact government officials might try to bill it as, you know, an economic boon, you know, an employment opportunity. A lot of people said, like, hey, I mean, I don't necessarily want a prison in my backyard, but if it's bringing

Starting point is 01:25:20 jobs, then, you know, that's what this community needs. That's something that I think makes social circle distinct from the previous shutdown campaigns I've worked on in Irwin County and in in Folkston is that this isn't really an area that is starved for employment or starved for, you know, economic support. Like, these people are doing okay. And, you know, another thing that makes it distinct is before all of this warehouse business, the vast majority of facilities in this country are formed through intergovernmental service agreements, you know, or IGSAs for short is the acronym, but there are agreements between the federal government and the county, the local government, where the local government says, yes, you can use our land or our facilities, and in exchange,

Starting point is 01:26:13 you pay us, I mean, in the case of Fokston, it's a comparably measly amount. It's only $200,000 per year. Jesus, no much, yeah. Even though the federal government is giving, I mean, $50 million a year to insert your favorite prison corporation here, you know, whether it's core civic or civic or geo group. Yeah, I mean, your favorite. There are only two, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, not much of a choice. Yeah, yeah. And so, typically, like, we see this sort of, like, co-opting and manipulation of the local community and the local government by the federal government, you know, coercing them economically to, you know, to take on these detention centers or else. But here, I mean, social, like I said, social circle is doing fine. They're not starved for economic investment. Yeah. And I said,

Starting point is 01:27:00 you know, consult them at all. It really just like, you know, in the dead of night, just bought this warehouse from a private company and pushed this deal through. So those are some aspects that I think might throw, you know, some of us who might have been involved in these similar fights before, like for a loop a little bit, because, yeah, there's this assumption, I think, by some of the local officials that the Supremacy Clause governs here and the federal government can do whatever it wants. So there's no point in us trying to use our local zoning ordinances or what have you to try to put a stop to this because there's nothing that we can do. Right. Is at least what, you know, some people might be saying. Yeah. Let's take a break for advertisements. I can't think

Starting point is 01:27:46 of anything mean to say. I don't know, buy some shit. This has come from a, don't, don't, buy anything you don't need. Okay. We are back. So you were talking about this assumption that Like, the supremacy clause would mean that the federal government could build a mega prison in a warehouse in your town without asking you if it could do that first. Can you explain, like, how people are able to use, like you said, like various local tools to oppose this? Like you said, it's a huge burden. Like, when I first read this story, I remember thinking about, like, just like the water and sewage demands of housing 8,000 people would be. crippling for the infrastructure in a lot of places. So how are people opposing this? Well, it's been really inspiring for me to see these local leaders who, again, many of whom have

Starting point is 01:28:50 never been involved in activism or organizing before. They've been very consistent in holding demonstrations on a weekly basis at the site of this facility and have garnered the attention of different media who have come and interviewed them. So that's been one way that they've been trying to, you know, get their message out there. I was just talking about, you know, the residents who are concerned from, you know, sort of fiscal perspective and are concerned about, you know, their own property values and things like that. But there are a fair number of people who are concerned about, you know, the core human rights

Starting point is 01:29:29 abuses. And, you know, sure, some of the lines might be. well, this isn't the right place. Right. You know, our city is not the right place for a detention center suggesting, you know, implying that there are some places that are suitable for a detention center. But there are a fair number of people in this community who are opposed to detention centers in general.

Starting point is 01:29:55 I mean, they see the violence that ICE is inflicting in broad daylight on public streets. And I think they're horrified and they don't want to be. complicit in something like that, you know, coming to their community. And I do think that along the way, I'm seeing more of a shift in, in the consciousness, or at least an openness to understanding the different influences that bring us to the same table. That's cool. Yeah, it is. It has been very cool. Yeah. And we can agree that, you know, we're not going to have 100% unity of ideas, but we can have a unity of action. And, you know, we can save these debates on, you know, I mean, whether someone is illegal or not. Yeah. But, you know, we can continue

Starting point is 01:30:51 to have them along the way as we are also identifying the very concrete ways that we can work together. And I'm thinking of one, for example, I work pretty closely with some staffers for are different members of Congress. I mean, in terms of like uplifting, you know, human rights and civil rights abuses that we see in detention center, it's because as part of my job, I go inside detention centers, immigration detention centers in Georgia pretty frequently. Also federal prisons. Okay. And we'll meet with people and learn about the conditions that they're facing and will, you know, fight for them to get released and also share what I learned from them with, you know, different members of Congress.

Starting point is 01:31:37 And most of our connections are with people who are aligned with the Democratic Party. You know, I mean, to be, to be frank, you know, I've never initiated correspondence with a Republican, but I think I kind of just assumed that they wouldn't want to. Yeah, yeah. That I wouldn't get anywhere with that. Or that they wouldn't, you know, that they wouldn't talk to me. But what's been effective in working with this coalition of residence is some of these people, I mean, Yeah, like they, you know, they've been card-carrying Republicans for a long time and feel that they, you know, can wield influence over, you know, certain Republican elected officials.

Starting point is 01:32:16 And one of them, you know, I mean, well, I don't know how many of them, but, but a number of these local residents have gotten Republican, you know, Mike Collins to come out against this ice facility. Yeah, that's especially right now in the Republican Party. And like that could be very difficult for them to do. I sort of want not hugely sympathetic to Republican politicians. And I would still like to see them get better. Like that's what we want people to get better. That's the whole thing. And like I think for these people whose politics may not be the same as ours,

Starting point is 01:32:52 sharing the space, sharing the movement, showing the struggle. Like I hope it makes people better. I hope being exposed to people who are not of the same background as you, be it like, class-rised, race-wise, politics-wise, whatever, like, makes people realise that things are not quite how they're presented to them on the television or in the media they consume. Totally. So I'm sure that's, yeah, like, I hope that is positive. What can, like, local government do or even, like, elected officials do, given that, uh, the elected officials on a federal level do, given that, I, you know, ICE just appears to be operating without a great deal of oversight right now. Yeah, I mean, with each of these warehouses, there are different circumstances around each of them.

Starting point is 01:33:42 I've been really inspired, honestly, by the folks in Maryland who are dealing with a warehouse, maybe multiple warehouses, I'm not sure. Yeah, I can't remember. Where, you know, at both the local and the state level, they have really pushed for. legislation that would effectively, yeah, I mean, prevent these warehouses from existing at all. It is a different set of facts than what we're working with here in Georgia because there's more involvement by private actors. And so the government, you know, the local government can regulate them more. But Maryland is certainly not the only place where those fights are happening. And so I would really encourage folks to, yeah, to learn from Maryland. And I get, you know, I'm

Starting point is 01:34:29 talking about, you know, legislation. I mean, I will be the first to tell you as a lawyer that I don't think legal tools will liberate us. You know, the law will not make us free. Sure. Yeah. And I do think it's it's the people power. It's the coming together.

Starting point is 01:34:52 It's the mass collective action that is, you know, that's what's going to do it. And also there are multiple, you know, there are multiple tools and multiple instruments that we can wield. And so right now, I mean, with respect to the social circle warehouse, ICE is saying that they intend to detain people in there starting in April. Jeez. In less than two months. Yeah. And so right now, the strategy truly is to use just like every tool at our disposal. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:35:25 Identifying, yeah, like, what legislation can be filed? What litigation, you know, what lawsuits can be filed? What, you know, demonstrations, what kind of, you know, canvassing, door knocking, you know, you name it. Like, how can, how can people come together? How can we try to identify which companies would be supplying the labor to turn this warehouse into something, you know, where people will be detained? I mean, not that, not that I think ICE gives a damn about making, any type of facility habitable for humans. But there's going to be some work that needs to be done in order to, you know, turn this, you know, would-be Amazon warehouse into a place for people. And is there work that, you know, local organizers? Because they're organizers. We're all, you know, we're all organizers.

Starting point is 01:36:22 Is there work that local organizers can do to try to unite, with laborers, with workers who might be working on this facility to try to prevent them. Or like city workers, like can they prevent city workers from like actually hooking up this warehouse to the city utilities.

Starting point is 01:36:43 Right. Yeah, yeah. Presumably, yeah, there will be a building contractor, right? Like they will want to build thousands of cells in this giant, yeah, like all of that stuff. And especially with it happening so quickly. Like, you know, anything that delays that will cause it to at least slow it down, I guess. Yeah. I think another angle that we haven't talked about yet is the environmental angle.

Starting point is 01:37:19 Mm-hmm. Like, with Social Circle, you know, this is, I mean, a town of 5,000, it's going to nearly triple the number of people in this place. And, I mean, and also triple the amount of waste and sewage that's going to be coming out of, this place. I mean, so that's one thing, another thing for people to look at is, you know, what would the environmental impact of these warehouses be on local waterways, for example? And that's what, you know, temporarily put a stop on the detention facility in the Everglades in Florida was a legal challenge in federal court under NEPA, the National Environmental Protection Act, because the federal government had failed to conduct the proper environmental impact.

Starting point is 01:38:06 assessments. And the only thing that they actually really had to do was, you know, something very procedural and, you know, tick a box and ultimately the facility ended up moving forward. But it was a tool to buy time to figure out what other types of organizing can we do. Yeah. And it's still like, even if it's only time, right, like harm isn't being done in that time and it's still a good thing. It's like a form of harm reduction. It reminds me a lot of the struggles here against the newer larger border wall that we've seen since 2015, 2016, when Trump got elected. Like, I'm thinking about how there have been ecological challenges to it.

Starting point is 01:38:50 There have been social challenges to it, right? The city of San Diego is currently trying to sue the Fed to trespass for part of its war construction, which, like, I'm not a big fan of our city government, but, like, I'm glad they did that. And all these different tools have at least, like, at least in the last. Trump administration. I remember in the late summer of 2020 being out with some Kumaya folks who were in ceremony because the wall construction was destroying Kumia ancestors, right, who are buried there and then the spaces where they are buried. And they ran out the clock on the Trump administration, right?

Starting point is 01:39:28 By using their rights as indigenous people to be in ceremony, the refusal of the workers to literally drive a dump truck through the middle of their ceremonial practices, they were able to run the clock out on the Trump administration. Unfortunately, now we have another one, but all those different things had to work together

Starting point is 01:39:47 to mean that, like, in that little part of the border, somebody's great-great-grandparents' remains weren't dynamited out of the earth. And that's still a good thing. Like, however we got there, that's a good thing. Absolutely. It makes me happy to hear that like even folks who might have otherwise been politically aligned with this project were appalled by this.

Starting point is 01:40:09 Because the idea of literally warehousing humans, like, it's so fucking bleak. Like there's these big warehouses where we fill them with shit that we don't need. And now they're filling them with people that apparently we don't want. Like it's one of the more horrific things. I don't know. It's so bleak to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:40:28 I agree. Like the veil has just been totally lifted. Like, we know that they don't view immigrants as human. Yeah. But now they're, like, not even pretending anymore. Just truly treating people like chattel. Yeah. Again.

Starting point is 01:40:44 Yeah, again, right? In the same places in this instance. Like, I'm, I guess I'm glad that even people who are not politically on the same team, maybe, like, are opposed to this because it's, yeah, it's repugnant. Yeah. I guess what if people are hearing about this for the first time, right? And we'll include that link to the article so people can look up where these locations are if they're near them. What advice would you have for people?

Starting point is 01:41:10 If you're listening to this, you click on that link, you find this one half an hour from your house or whatever. Like what advice do you have for those people? I think if you're already an organizer, regardless of whether you've been in the immigrants' rights fight or not, now is a time when it really is like all hands on deck. So don't be afraid to get involved, but also, you know, like we were talking about before we started, is I think guarantee that there is some immigrants rights movement in your locale or somewhere close by. And I think it's just

Starting point is 01:41:54 so important to, you know, approach this work, not with the assumption that you are starting, you know, launching this new campaign, spearheading this, you know, new previously untapped, you know, area of work because I guarantee you that, you know, there are people who have worked on this before. And so I think connect with, you know, connect both with people who have been doing this work for a long time and also try to connect with people who you might not. otherwise have thought to connect with. And I think it's important to call out the nimbism, the not in my backyardism of how, you know, some people are coming at this issue because they're, you know, they're worried about their property value. But it's also something that

Starting point is 01:42:44 we can capitalize on, right? It's energy. And oftentimes it's people with capital and connections that you know that you might not otherwise have had access to either so i think you know the the connecting you know and the community organizing needs to go in multiple directions but i do think it's important to move yeah it's important to move fast yeah seriously like that is a very constrained timeline like everybody has to be but that that means it's also important to move respectfully, right? Because like if we just blow each other shit up, because yet people assume that migrant communities have somehow not been advocating for themselves and each other for centuries, then we're not going to have time to organize because we're going to be dealing with that shit.

Starting point is 01:43:34 And I've seen that so much just personally, right? Like having been involved for some time in migrant advocacy and seeing folks like pop in and tell us how to do everything. It's tires them. I understand that you'll want to help. But yeah, if this is something that, like, you're organizing around, it's super easy to find those organizations to be like, how can I help? Yeah. And it's also such a good, like this fight in particular is such a good vehicle for fighting for abolition overall. As someone who's been saying abolish ICE for years,

Starting point is 01:44:13 it is amazing to see how much traction that phrase. has gotten especially over the last six months. And we can't just be fighting against, you know, preventing new ice facilities. We need to be fighting for shutting down all ice facilities and for abolishing ICE as an institution. We've been around before ICE and we will be around after ICE. As, you know, as an agency, Ice has only been around since 2003.

Starting point is 01:44:43 Sure, there was a predecessor. There was the INS. But, I mean, it didn't operate in nearly the type of way that ICE does now as this, you know, law enforcement agency. And even before Trump, like, ICE was still a really, you know, horrible, like a horrible agency. And so, yeah, I think it's important to continue to, you know, point these things out while also, you know, welcoming people into the fight and and pushing them, pushing them farther. Yeah, I think that's really important. I think we have to rebut the assumption that this is an aberration and we can fix it and go back to normal because normal was bad and you just couldn't see it because it wasn't on your screen, right? Like children died in outdoor detention under Biden.

Starting point is 01:45:35 I saw people suffer immensely in outdoor detention under Biden. Like we don't want to go back to that either. And I think it's really important that when we build these coalition. we build them with that in mind that like we're organizing very quickly but also we're in this for the long haul until everybody's free. Is there anything that you'd like to leave people with resources or a bit of advice and any closing words you'd like to share with them? Abolish ice. That's all I got. Perfect. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders

Starting point is 01:46:19 and the world are out of them. And that's why we're three. thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Starting point is 01:46:45 Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Inelik Lamouba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. had both been assassinated, and Black America was out of breaking point. Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale.

Starting point is 01:47:00 In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's Almermata, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King Sr., and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people would die. The murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

Starting point is 01:47:30 This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A-building on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen-Yin. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys' Five Rings. podcast. In the lead-up to the Milan Quartina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

Starting point is 01:47:57 Hi, Boen, hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to two guys, five rings on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Starting point is 01:48:19 What is one thing about love you've had to? to unlearn that it's earned. That it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want.

Starting point is 01:48:38 I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boyceover podcast, and each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle. I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed. The thing about romantic fiction, I would say more than any other genre of culture

Starting point is 01:48:51 is that it's always put women first. My marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off. The behavior started to feel different. This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. I'm like, I would love to not hate the man. I'm sleeping with.

Starting point is 01:49:12 I don't know what that's about. Listen to Boy Sober on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to dive in, hood politics, and prop. This is special for me. We're calling this the art of Petty. And the play on words you may or may not know is that Petty's actually my last name.

Starting point is 01:49:39 And like, literally, government, it's my last name. And as a child, it used to bother me. As a grown-up, I'm like, nah, that sounds about right. So what made us start, first of all, was the bio-same. the writer of the Petty'sburg address. Yeah. That's one of the funniest things. It makes me mad because it's my last name.

Starting point is 01:50:04 And I'm like, why did I not think of that? Like, it's so brilliant. Amanda Nelson, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for appreciating my ridiculous Abraham Lincoln joke. It's brilliant. I and Super Producer Ian separately came across your content.

Starting point is 01:50:24 like at the same time I know when I first hit the follow within a day or two and was like, hey, have you heard of this person? And then he just sent me the link. I was like, dude, I just started off. And I think there's a, there's a kindred spirit in the sense of like,

Starting point is 01:50:41 history being actually not that difficult to grasp if you just speak like a regular ass human. You know what I'm saying? Yes. And politics the same. Like, you know, the premise of the whole show is that like if you understand inner city living you understand

Starting point is 01:50:58 politics like if you grew up in and around our streets it's really not that different you know even whether you was like a nerd you know running as fast as you can to the library you still knew i better not go down seventh street because like you still know how this works you know or whether you were completely outside like you know stealing people's bikes like you get it you know. So what we appreciated about what you do is, is the accessibility of it. So thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you. That's, that was the goal from the beginning, especially the, you know, on Mondays, I do a series called the whiteboard, which is literally just a whiteboard with a bunch of sticky notes on it. Yeah. Where I track congressional legislation as it moves its way through Congress, or doesn't, as is more often the case.

Starting point is 01:51:46 Yeah. And that was one of the first things I started doing when I started making content and people were so appreciative of it. In a way, I found surprising. I thought people would find it nerdy. and boring and silly. Yeah. But it's such an unnecessarily complicated process and explaining it in ways that people can grasp. There's been a lot of appreciation for it, which I love. Yeah. Which leads me to the next question, which would be like, okay, so your formal training,

Starting point is 01:52:08 you're upbringing, like, I need to know the origin story of the nerdery. But before that, this is the week of the Super Bowl. So I'm just wondering, as a Latina, who's not a Latina, who I just found out an hour ago is not a Latino. Have you recovered from Benito's performance? I am not a Latino. That is true. And I just, when I was talking about it,

Starting point is 01:52:32 when I was talking about it online, about Bad Bunny's halftime show, I got so many people asking me, wait, you're not Latina. So apparently I am presenting, which is nice. Yes. I have recovered because after the halftime show, I went to bed.

Starting point is 01:52:46 So I was in bed, but I like 9.30. It was such a boring game. Like, I'm not going to say to her and watch it. game was trash. Four hours of freaking field goals, but then of course I went to bed and it got spiced up a little bit. Then it became a game. Right, but it didn't matter. Yeah, so you're on the

Starting point is 01:53:01 East Coast then? I am. I'm in Virginia, yep. Yeah, no, that's absolutely hilarious. We are on the West Coast, to which the game starts at 3 p.m. But definitely my wife was like ready to go after that. My wife is a first-gen Latina and she was just like, wait, there's more game?

Starting point is 01:53:19 She's being silly, but yeah, do we have to? stay, we're at my sister-in-law's house. And she was just like, we're good unless you want to stay. You know, since I'm a Cali native, I'm like, I really don't care about either of these teams. Same.

Starting point is 01:53:32 Yeah. And my, I mean, down to my mitochondria, like, I cannot ever cheer for a New England team. Yeah. I can't, just the Celtics, the Boston thing, as an L.A. boy, I can't anybody remotely close to that. I just can't cheer for. I think I have, like,

Starting point is 01:53:51 2010's PTSD for having to constantly listen to the Patriots be in everything. And so I have an ingrained bias. Also, their owners, like a weird maga dude. And he's weird. Yeah. He's weird. So, and Tom Brady is also weird. Like, he's a weird guy. Weird, man. Did you see his roast? Yes. Yes. I would like, yeah, you weird, bro. Like, you know. He is. And I can't decide if like, Giselle leaving made him weirder or if he was weird and she left because of that, I can't figure it out. I don't care that much. I honestly, that's a good thought, man, like, because I've considered that a few times. Because I'm like, the level of competitive you have to be to be someone like a Tom Brady,

Starting point is 01:54:34 like a Michael Jordan, like Tony Hawk, like you have to be insufferable with your will and drive to be as good as you are. And now my wife has a PhD in Ed Policy. She's one of the most self-driven people I know. Even with her just doctoral nerdiness, there's a level of like, will you chill? Like about, you know, certain stuff. But we're both like, we're both nerds. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:55:01 We're both nerds in a lot of ways. But like, I can imagine, I can't imagine being married to someone where you're just like, can we talk about anything but this. Yes. Anything else. Yes. The answer is no. No. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:55:15 So, okay. So tell me about, okay. formal training and upbringing. Like, why are you like this? Why am I like this? Yes. Well, I have a history degree, an undergraduate history degree, that I got, how do I explain why I'm like this?

Starting point is 01:55:28 That's such an interesting question. So I was raised in South by very conservative white people. Okay. And I did not understand why I was kind of singled out a lot growing up. Like, as we said at the beginning, I am not Latina. My grandmother's from the Philippines. And so that was like enough, like enough. like enough one-dropness to make all the white people around me.

Starting point is 01:55:49 Yeah, one-drop, do you? Yeah, like very weird. And I didn't get it. And as I grew up and I realized more about, I understood more about the South and about Virginia specifically, which is the capital of the Confederacy and all that. Yeah. I got kind of obsessed with history. Like, why are these people like this?

Starting point is 01:56:03 Yeah. So I've always been into history. I got a history degree. And then I became, you know, act kind of actively. Once I got out of my parents' house, to be honest. For sure. And they're not conservative anymore. But once I got out of my parents' house and discovered, like,

Starting point is 01:56:16 a world of active... I went to college, which is the case with so many kids who grew up in, you know, the rural South. I went to college, discovered activism and organizing and people with different opinions. Yeah. And I don't know, a whole world opened up for me

Starting point is 01:56:29 and I got involved. I've been politically involved ever since. I've done all kinds of things. I've volunteered for campaigns. I've been a clinic escort. Yeah. An abortion clinic here in town. All kinds of...

Starting point is 01:56:39 I've worked with the ACLU. So I am like this, I suppose, because my family is strange. I respect it. Or maybe not strange. Maybe just normal for where they're from. Normal for where they are from. No, I respect that. In your defense, the Philippines, y'all are the Black and Latinos of Asia. Yes, yes, the Mexicans of the Pacific. Yeah, you're the Mexicans and the Black people. That's what sucks about being, or what's great

Starting point is 01:57:05 about being Filipino, y'all get to be Black and Latino and Asian. It's not fair. My step-mon's from the Philippines, so, like, I have this affinity because raised by a Filipino woman. Well, I was raised by a black woman and a Filipino woman. Long story. The point is that makes a lot of sense, dude. That thing that radicalized you was, I'm using radicalized as a stand-in word, but just exposure, right? Like, that's super interesting to know that, like, not even the awareness of, because like you said, like, you existed in this white space and you, like, I don't understand why y'all. Exactly.

Starting point is 01:57:39 Yeah. What did I do? What did I do? It's like, because you're kind of not. You're like, well, but yeah, I am, right? Like, it was, it was kind of, kind of one of those scenarios or like, or did you kind of like, I'm maybe putting a little more on it. Like you said, you weren't aware of your presenting, but did you feel sort of culturally that like I feel like I belong here? Is that was, is that true?

Starting point is 01:58:03 Yeah. I mean, I didn't understand. I understood that I looked a little bit different than everybody around me. Fine. Yeah. A little bit. Not a time. Like, I'm not.

Starting point is 01:58:11 I'm a quarter of a Filipino, like it's not. I understood that I looked a little bit different. I did not understand why that mattered. Word. For a really long time. And then like the older I got, the more it would be like I go out into school. And the sort of racism that I would get would be when people mistook me for being Latina. Or when people mistook me for being black, that's when I would get like act like really bad.

Starting point is 01:58:33 Because where I'm from in Virginia Beach is the largest Filipino population in the East Coast. Word. So Filipinos being around, people were kind of used to. but it was when people thought that I was not just other, but a whole other other, you know, of them what they were used to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't, I didn't understand.

Starting point is 01:58:48 Like, I was born into this household. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've all watched the same fucking NASCAR races. We eat the same food. We listen to the, I have to listen to your stupid-ass Rush Limbaugh. So, like, why am I different? It doesn't make sense to me. That's so interesting.

Starting point is 01:59:04 I love that. My undergrad was going to be history, but it kind of switched to, like, intercultural studies. I was just more interested a little more in like sociology. I majored in illustration because I wanted to do art and the cultural studies

Starting point is 01:59:16 and then did social science for like grad school. Mine was a little different in the sense that listeners know, but like my father was a, my father was a Black Panther, you know what I'm saying? And you know, we grew up in the space

Starting point is 01:59:26 and it wasn't sort of like, like you said, like this like light bulb was not my experience. My experience was like, this is necessary for our survival. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:59:35 And I think I was more thrown back because which is, again, what I want to get to about, like, kind of the way that you present this stuff is, like, I feel like this information is available for all of us. Like, it didn't take a lot of digging for you to, like, I feel like it was not really, I love the even, even you talking about your experience in like working in politics and organizing and volunteering where it's like a lot of times we feel like the access to entry is much harder than it actually is. You could just go there. Just go over there and just be like, yo, can I help? And it's really like, it really be that easy, you know. And people will be so happy to have you.

Starting point is 02:00:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I just feel like, especially your, you're, I'm jumping around, but like your Trump's L's for the week are like, I mean, it's right there. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, he'd just be saying them. I don't take a lot of work, you know what I'm saying? Like, but obviously us has like, you know, having formal training in research and backchecking. and double checks.

Starting point is 02:00:38 Like, you know, like having the formal training, that definitely helps me, you know what I'm saying? But besides that, sometimes I'll be like, well, this is just, I mean, this is what he said he was going to do and then it didn't happen. So I'm like, that's an L, ain't it? Like, I just don't, it don't be that hard. Okay, now, the next question is about your sense of humor.

Starting point is 02:00:57 So, like, why are you so funny? Like, what? Why are you like that? Because I mean. I love it. I mean to people you're not supposed to be mean to. Like, you know, there's such a Americans, let me rephrase this, white Americans have such an ingrained, like inherent respect for positions of authority like the president. Like, how can you talk shit about the president? You know, I don't care. Because he trash. Because he's garbage. I don't give a shit. I don't care. Like, he looks like, he's the color of a rusted out horse drop. The fuck do I care. Yeah. So I have no problems being mean. And I mean in ways that give people like permission to be a little like thrilled by it. a little delighted by it.

Starting point is 02:01:39 And that provides, I think, an entryway for people to learn a little bit of defiance. I love it. I don't know. America, we're not great. Again, I should clarify, white America specifically, especially my people. Yeah, I was like, oh, no, man, whatever really. Yeah, but anyway, well, yeah. You're right. Yeah, like, the people that I speak to are a lot of, like, suburban moms, right?

Starting point is 02:01:58 I'm a 41-year-old mom. And they are not used to middle fingers up at all, especially, yeah, recently. You know, like Biden got in office and everybody kind of, fell asleep. Yeah. In the Democratic Party, white people fell asleep. So being mean and just pulling out some claws, it's both like funny and fun for me, but it's also strategic because I do want there to I want to present a permission structure for people to start learning to have a bit more backbone. I love that. I love that. Like you said, the term you use is permission. And that's what, what I enjoyed. I think that, yeah, like knowing that like you're from the South and that like adds

Starting point is 02:02:33 even more of a color to what's happening here. It makes me like it even more. Yeah, I don't have no second thoughts about dragging a public figure, a politician. Like, I don't have no second thoughts about it because, again, like, you asked for this. You know what I'm saying? Like, you signed up for this. You said you was going to be this. Like, all right, I'm about to get real black. But, like, there's parts of me that's just like, okay, are you a bitch-ass nigga?

Starting point is 02:03:09 You know what I'm saying? Like, and I'm like, there are ways for me to be able to know if you are. You presented yourself like you're a real one. And I'm like, okay, well, there's qualifying entry points for me to do that. You know what I'm saying? Like, we learn I'll respect in our culture you respect your elders for their position as elders. But do I respect that person as a person? No, you got to earn that.

Starting point is 02:03:38 But authority figures are different. You're in a corrupt system. Like, this system already don't like me. And you're applying for a job. And the job you applying for is governance. So I'm like, I don't give, like about you? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, no.

Starting point is 02:03:57 But there is something unique, I think, about your particular intersections as technically ambiguous. From the South, highly educated, you know, and unfortunately in a patriarchalienable, you know, and unfortunately in a patriarchal, misogynistic world of female, right? Which I already know greats at so much, which I think I appreciate probably the most

Starting point is 02:04:24 when you have time to, like, drag a commenter. Like, obviously, men are not okay. Like, we know that ship is sailed, we're not okay. You know what I'm saying? Part of me feels like, now this is like, as much as I've evolved in my feminism

Starting point is 02:04:40 and, you know, I'm the father of two daughters. And, you know, I've learned to, like, really not understand how I was the problem to become to understand that I'm the problem, you know, even in just my ways of communicating, my advocacy, stuff like that, my blind spots and all that. And I'm with, you know what I'm saying? I have nephews. I don't have, like I said, I don't have sons, but I have, I have nephews who I've, like, realized that I carried a lot of ways for which I thought I was supposed to talk to my daughter

Starting point is 02:05:08 versus talking to a son, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, and I say, well, I'm going to talk to my daughter the way I would talk to my son, you know, and just stupid, you know what I'm saying? And then, but even just being like, man, like sometimes my nephew could use like a gentle voice. Like, you know, a man just like him that could just be real gentle. You know what I'm saying? Like, man, I'm sorry, you're sick, man. It sucks when you get your feelings hurt. Like, I get it.

Starting point is 02:05:30 You know what I'm saying? Like being able to be gentle with him too. That said, I feel like I come from an era where words have consequences. You know, you say something to somebody It might slap the shit out of you. Yes. You know what I'm saying? So like, you watch your mouth.

Starting point is 02:05:46 You know what I'm saying? Because like, now granted, like I said, I've grown to wear that like, I don't know who the fuck you think you're talking to. Like, I don't say that no more. You know what I'm saying? Where it's just like, okay, I have learned that that's not the person I need to be.

Starting point is 02:05:59 However, I feel like a lot of these young men, especially in your comment sections, like they didn't have no big homies like I did. that would be like, boy, if you don't shut, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, and just being like, son, like, so you can't just be talking. And I come from a city where she might slap the shit out of you. She will.

Starting point is 02:06:20 You know what I'm saying? She will. It's not just like, you know what I'm saying? So I'm like, bro, you can't just be talking. So anyway, that's a long preamble to say, I appreciate when you take the time to drag a comment. Thank you. I do.

Starting point is 02:06:31 So please tell me, please tell me the origins of that. Yeah. So I have two sons. Okay. They are twins. They'll be 15 in a few weeks. And I care a lot. Actually, I get a lot of shit for this from people on the left, from liberals as well, especially from women.

Starting point is 02:06:49 But I care a lot about men and them not being okay. You know, I care. Yeah, they're not okay. Yeah. Because I have two boys. And I don't want that to be them. I see the traps that are waiting for them out there that are being placed on purpose. For sure.

Starting point is 02:07:02 By bad actors. Yeah. So I want policy, including. conversations and acceptance and help for the men and the boys. Yeah. And also when it's almost always, you know, like some Republican mouth breather who follows a bunch of AI porn bots gets into my comments to talk to me some kind of way, I decided that I was going to make an example of them because these are people who have never experienced

Starting point is 02:07:24 a consequence. Yes. Ever. That's what I'm saying. Like if you're a 50-year-old white man, you have never experienced a consequence for running your mouth. That's what I'm saying. And I'm going to be that consequence for you.

Starting point is 02:07:34 You're welcome. Yes. Thank you. And it just disgusts me because, again, they're almost always following like a bunch of teenagers, AI bots,

Starting point is 02:07:45 you know, all of these just, it's completely inappropriate behavior. They do not understand the concept of matching energy. They're completely shocked when they come into my comments and give me shit

Starting point is 02:07:55 and then I match their energy. They're always just aghast that like, how dare I? Well, you dared first. What? I'm just like, yeah, like for somebody who swear they so, like,

Starting point is 02:08:05 so tough and hard. I'm like, man, you little cupcake ass. Yes. Like, one of the earliest, I mean, I'm telling you the earliest lesson I got as a child. And I still say it to my kids, you don't dish out what you can't take. Like, you don't put it out there if you can't handle it. You know, so if you go get jokes and that person roast you back, I come from, that's our culture. It's like, even around family. It's just like, bro, I was having a conversation with one of the parents, like, because I have the type of job I

Starting point is 02:08:35 I do a lot of the pickups, the after-school pickups. Yeah. You know, so I was talking to one of the moms. Third shift as a chauffeur. Yes, yes. So I was talking to one of the moms just about like nicknames growing up, whatever, right? And my mother, biting sarcasm, super funny, brilliant. But like, fire baptized, speaking in tongues, praying the house down.

Starting point is 02:08:56 She's just a biting sarcasm. And I was like, she used to call me the before pitcher. Jesus. She just, just. whole is ice and I was just like, day. But again, it's like, she could always give it back. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 02:09:13 So like we, you just, so you just knew like if you was going to get your feelings hurt. I don't know if you can handle that, you know, and even like specifically with the young ladies, it's just like, bro, like, I'd like,

Starting point is 02:09:23 you following with porn bots, like part of me, like, again, in the most misogynistic possible is like, cause, like, because, like, you're a weirdo. Like, that's why are you doing this. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:09:34 And they claim, like, this is a group of people, you know, whatever, conservative gen X men who claim a level of cultural dominance that that's what they're expressing when they come into my comment section to yell at me. This like cultural dominance they think they have. And it's completely manufactured. Yeah. You dominate no one. No one. Look at you. Like, and that's kind of the point that I, and I, part of me is like, well, maybe I'm being too mean, but also I feel like I'm doing them a favor. Like, you really are. You have no actual self-esteem. You have no, self-esteem is built by doing esteemable things.

Starting point is 02:10:06 And when you spend all of your time online, just yelling at women. There's nothing esteemable there. It's so silly, man. Like, I mean, we're totally off the rails here, but I love this because it's very important to me. Because I'm just like, when my oldest was in like junior high, like I was trying to tell my wife, like, I was like,

Starting point is 02:10:22 the thing is we have been experiencing rejection since fifth grade. And it's because we're planning this all week to go actually approach Natasha. Like, you were thinking about it all week. I'm going to wear the right outfit. I'm going to do this. You go over there, you say something to her. She giggles to all her friends and runs away and says, ew. It's just like, okay, that's the first time you got your little heartbroken as a little boy, right?

Starting point is 02:10:45 So fast forward to middle school. Oh, my God, will you dance with me? Ew, no. Okay. You did it again. By the time these dudes are in the club and it's like, hey, red jeans. Red jeans. Red jeans.

Starting point is 02:10:56 Red jeans. You want to dance? Hopefully, if you have a healthy sense, you start learning like, hey, man, you catch more bees with honey, bro. Like, or you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe there's a better way to communicate with people and you just got to understand that, like, I just think you don't know how to talk to people. Like, you don't know, like, she got the right to be like, no, thank you.

Starting point is 02:11:20 And you got to be like, okay, word, you know what I'm saying? You shot your shot. Like, I'm trying to be like as bland as possible. Look, you shoot a shot. You don't make every shot. Yeah. Do you what I'm saying? Like, you don't make every shot.

Starting point is 02:11:32 You're going to hit one of them. You know what I'm saying? Somebody going to want to dance with you, and you're just like, okay, great. You know, it was a good time. You know, hey, can we? No, okay, cool. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it is what it is.

Starting point is 02:11:43 To your point, I think either, I don't, I, it's so weird to me explain because I just, I don't relate to it. I don't relate to somebody who doesn't understand that, like, bro, you're a total stranger. Like, I don't care about your opinion, number one. And why do you feel like you have the right to, like, what is you doing? Like, it's just, it's embarrassing, bro. So anyway, I enjoy it. But I think you brought up something that I would love to hear you talk more about.

Starting point is 02:12:11 All this is say, like, this is the note I wrote. It's like, I feel like this type of dragging is not only needed, but I think it's holy. Right. And I think it's a divine, sacred work to like truly roast a person. And I think when it comes to you in politics, it's because you know what you're talking about. it makes it even more important. But I guess my question is like, do you think that there is something greater

Starting point is 02:12:37 than just this is funny going on there? Oh, yeah, for sure. I know it seems like it's for the lulls or whatever or the views of the clicker to your engagement or whatever, but there's very little that I do in my content that's not strategic. Yeah. And again, it goes back to permission.

Starting point is 02:12:55 Like you said, these men don't know me. Yeah. I don't care what they think about me. I'm doing great. You know, you're free to hate me. I don't care. But I want to, again, provide a permission structure, especially for other women who exist online and who in this moment especially want to start raising their voices to learn how to clap back.

Starting point is 02:13:15 Like, you have got to learn, if you're going to be out there, especially right now in the world. Yeah. As a woman, you have got to learn how to tell somebody to fuck off. But show. In a way that that matter, that they will hear, you know? Because a lot of times men won't hear, no. We know that. The president doesn't know what the word not means.

Starting point is 02:13:30 but if you can say it artfully and mean it with your whole chest oftentimes it will work so it's it's almost like providing an example especially for women who are a little younger than me because I'm in my 40s now how to detach themselves from the value assigned to them by random men

Starting point is 02:13:48 who gives a fuck for show and like the seasoning on top of that is just corny ass men like just you are a cornball Like that's where it's like it's not the problem, but it's the part that just like gets under my fingernails is like, you're so fucking corny. Like, you know what I'm saying? We're holding a fish.

Starting point is 02:14:10 Yeah. So I'm like, why are you doing this? Like you're the same guy, bro. Like. It's the same guy every time. Why are y'all? Who, where is this aesthetic? And then I'm just like speaking your language.

Starting point is 02:14:20 Like I don't know a single female that likes this. Nope. Like, who? Anyway, let's go back to the, to the professional. Even though I do love that that's a part of the thing. Like you mentioned before, formerly trained in history, you know, your whiteboard stuff. Like, you're obviously very well researched. And I have my cynical answer to this.

Starting point is 02:14:41 But like, it's just so bizarre to me how specifically if we're going to use these binaries of like right wing and left wing, like, especially like content creation to where I'm just like, okay, we know that that's a grift. We know that's a hustle. We know you doing that. But even with that, I'm just like, they just be factually wrong. Yeah. To where I'm just like, I'm not even like, I'm not even worried about your position. I can't even get to your positions yet. I'm just saying, like, you ain't do no homework.

Starting point is 02:15:11 I can't square that circle to me. But like what you do and I know what I do too is because I guess, because I guess we care about reality is like, I mean, do a lot of homework. You know what I'm saying? So like I would love to know a little bit about your process as far as like your homework, your research, maybe some tools you use before you even. put it on. Like, I mean, there's been times I've had to be like, hey, guys, hey, I fucked up. I thought it was, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'll come back and fact check myself, but I'll just be like, I don't understand fact check at all. Like, I feel like I don't even, that's why I won't do like jubilees or any to be. I'll be like, man. Oh, I refuse. No,

Starting point is 02:15:44 absolutely not. I'm not doing it. I don't do no homework. Like, yeah. I'm not doing that. Yeah. No. That's all it was my actual nightmare. Yes, exactly. I have a stress stream of being in a jubilee. Yeah. Yeah. I think that the way that, like you were saying, The way that it's approached makes a difference. So, like, I'm not here for a media career. I'm not here to make a billion dollars and become an influencer and go work on Chuck Schumer's re-election campaign. I don't give a shit about any of that.

Starting point is 02:16:08 No, thank you. I am here. I don't fuck with Chuck Schumer. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. I am here with a mission. And my mission is to help people who are probably just getting plugged in or even people

Starting point is 02:16:20 have been plugged in for a while and are getting tired, understand how power operates in America politically. Yeah. historically and now. And that takes a lot of digging and a lot of research and a lot of fact-checking, as you were saying. So I need people to trust me because if they don't trust me, they're not going to take my advice. They're not going to get involved in the places I tell them to get involved. There's not going to be any strategy to the ways that people are formulating their resistance or their opposition to rising authoritarianism. So it matters a great deal that I am right in the things that I'm saying. And that it's accurate at least. I mean, I'm not saying my takes are always right.

Starting point is 02:16:56 Of course, like you said, I make mistakes sometimes, and I will go back and correct myself. But, I mean, you know, I've been an American history person for 20 years now. So I do have a pretty big base of knowledge. Decent, yeah. But I am going to go back before I say a word and, like, double check my dates. Double check, like, was this person in the House or the Senate? You know, what was the bill number? Like, I am going to do all of that.

Starting point is 02:17:18 And that takes a lot of digging. Like, I don't think it's on purpose necessarily, but going through congressional records is everything is very scattered. nothing is in one place. You're checking 14 different, you know, resources, Congress.gov and all these other things. And I have to collulate all of that and put it together. And it takes hours, you know, hours. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:17:36 But it's my full-time job now. So, yeah. That's fine. But when I was working full-time, when I had like a corporate job, I was in big tech up until June of last year. Wow. So it was just a lot of hours. It was 18, 19-hour days.

Starting point is 02:17:50 I slept almost zero. I mean, it's better now. But, yeah, I mean, I am very dedicated. to making sure that the thing that I'm putting out there is trustworthy, is not emotionally reactive. Like, I'm, I think that is something that separates me from other creators, especially on the left, is I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I'm not trying to make you panic. I'm not doing that like, that should terrify every American.

Starting point is 02:18:12 I'm not doing that shit. You're an adult. If you want to be terrified, be terrified, I don't care. Like, your feelings are your own problem. I'm telling you what's happening, how it's rooted in American history and what you can do about it. And, like, what people have done about it in the past when similar things have happened. Something similar has probably happened. And so, like, yeah, that's my strategy.

Starting point is 02:18:30 Yeah, again, very much so, like a kinsman, like, spirit in that, yeah, like, I'm not, I'm, I'm ultimately an educator. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, I'm really just trying to onboard you to be like, hey, bro, like, these people aren't smarter than you, you know? Yes. Lastly, like, I would ask, because you kind of just brought it up, like, some sort of, like, historical parallels as far as, like, lessons from, from the past. Like, do you have any of that, like, come to mind? off the head. Oh, yes. How much time do you have? No, I know people always, always, always want to talk about Nazi Germany right now. And like, I get it. Okay. I'm not saying that there are no

Starting point is 02:19:17 commonalities, of course, there are. It's so important to me that we focus on the commonalities that we have in American history because we are so different from Germany. Yeah. Germany was like very ethnically homogenous. It's a small country compared to ours. They don't have the same issues that we had. They had, you know, Nazi Germany came out of a very particular time, place, and people. We are a different time place in people. So there's that. Like, study Nazi German if you want. I'm not saying don't. But if you're going to study Nazi Germany, but you're not going to look at the Black Panthers and you're not going to look at the civil rights movement and you're not going to look at Reconstruction. And you're not going to look at Jim Crow. Reconstruction. Yes. Yes. You're

Starting point is 02:19:53 not going to come up with any viable solutions. Yes. Because resistance in Germany came from the Soviet Union coming in with the... Yeah, Soviets did it. But resistance in America comes from black and indigenous and Latino people. Yes. And we did it.

Starting point is 02:20:09 Yeah. Yes. And labor movements. And all... So you have got to become more familiar with your own people, with your own people. And that's a little difficult in America, right?

Starting point is 02:20:19 Because we're like, you know, we're not really a melting pot. We're more of like a weird mixed chopped salad. Yes. But we tend to be in our little, on purpose, our separated, segregated neighborhoods and our segregated schools. and we don't associate with.

Starting point is 02:20:31 And we do like Black History Month, and then we forget to read about any other point of black history outside of that. Yeah. And we'll do, like, Indigenous People's Day on Columbus Day and never read another piece of history. And all that is a disservice, because those are the effective resistance methods that we can take and carry forward as we move through this administration.

Starting point is 02:20:51 And we will. We will come out on the other side. But like... I love it. Even something like the Gilded Age, right? Like, that, I think, is one of the most important historical analogs, the late 19th century, because in the gilded age, we had an oligarchy. There was no income tax.

Starting point is 02:21:05 Like, the Rockefellers, there was so much corruption at every level of government. Jim Crow was on the rise, was being born out of that era. Yeah. Labor unions were coming online and all of that, like, if there are so many parallels, but we made so many mistakes then. We made so many, we let the clan come back. Our labor unions were segregated, purposefully segregated. Yes.

Starting point is 02:21:26 We got lots of things like the FDA and government regulations. and things like that that were born out of all this corruption, but then we went way too far into scolding and got prohibition, which was a terrible idea. So we need to avoid that. We need to avoid leaving behind people like we did during the Gilded Age because that's what Americans tend to do. We like momentum.

Starting point is 02:21:46 We like forward. We like progress. And we leave behind all these people who have been oppressed and marginalized and we just ignore them. So we need to look at our own history and learn not just from the effective resistance of the past, but the mistakes we made. in the past. And we can't really do that looking at Nazi Germany because that ended with a bunker. Those weren't our mistakes. Yeah, exactly. He killed himself and then we, you know, set up NATO and left.

Starting point is 02:22:12 Yeah, yeah. And that's not what we need to do here. My biggest gripe was like, yeah, like, especially with like the leftover Nazis was like, we didn't go hard enough on that. You know what I'm saying? Like, we should have like really stamped that out. But you really cook it, man. Like, I mean, you already nailed it. I see, yeah, Gilded Age, slave catchers. Like to me this is like, this is some Dred Scott shit to me. Yes.

Starting point is 02:22:33 You know what I'm saying? And yeah, all that like, because that was like we're saying, okay, who's a citizen? Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 02:22:40 That was the Dred Scott question, right? Or just like, you know, states rights versus federal rights. Marlboro versus Madison. Like all this stuff, like you said,

Starting point is 02:22:47 like we've already fleshed out that in my mind is playing. But I, but the Gilded Age thing is like, nah, dude, like you cooking. Because, man, you got me all excited.

Starting point is 02:22:56 I'm excited now. I wish you could see my toes tapping. But, like, yeah, because I'm like, okay, you think I like the Pinkertons. You think about like the ways for which a collective movement being broke in the sense that like you had these, you know, steel workers in Pittsburgh that would strike. And then they would just go get freed slaves to be like, well, y'all could go do this. And it's like, man, what the hell you want me to do, dog? You know what I'm saying? Like, like, you had any choice.

Starting point is 02:23:23 I don't have no choice. You know what I'm saying? It's like to the regime, like, touchey. It was a really good move. You know what I'm saying? As somebody trying to hold on to a regime. But like, to your point, like, it's always like, and this is the hard part for me, even talking about black history, which is something I want to come back to with like,

Starting point is 02:23:41 the cost of this is different for like African American communities. This costs us more. You know what I'm saying? It's going to, in the long run, cost us all. Don't get me wrong. But what you're asking, especially at that moment, going back to the Gilded Days, what you're asking me to step into, we're not ponying up the same amount of money here.

Starting point is 02:24:01 You know what I'm saying? So I just wonder, like you said, like what are those lessons me living in Los Angeles, like, you know, with the ice rage being a part of like deeply student in the Latino community. Like, what's the strategic? Because, you know, black people get out there, police open fire. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 02:24:19 Like, they're going to kill us. You know what I mean? So like, is this strategic by us, like, kind of like, well, we'll be in the back row. like what's happening here. You know what I'm saying? Like, so what are those lessons? What are ways for which we can like,

Starting point is 02:24:33 like you said, like look at how America has responded to its, you know, hydra that's rearing itself again is an interesting thing. But I think the last thing before I'm going to ask you about predictions is this thing about black history, this being Black History Month. So the hard part for me is like, especially with like, Like, children, like, I taught high school for six years, you know, when, when discussing blackness, or like you said, Indigenous Day or whatever, like, it's this carve out, right, that is, you know, a corrective force, right? But the carve out, a lot of times tends to just be like trivia,

Starting point is 02:25:15 like vocabulary, like, oh, did you know that this person? Did you do it? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, of course, because you're trying to like, I get it. You're trying to wet the appetite. You know what I'm saying? But it's a carve out to me that's not in the context. it's not context embedded. It's not a part of history. It's this carve out that's taught as trivia. You know what I'm saying? Like an afterthought.

Starting point is 02:25:36 Yeah, or an add-on. It's like you said, but then like you said, but then never talked about again as if like, well, it's like, well, we were there the whole time. We're in every chapter. We're in all the semesters you're about to talk through. Like, we was at all of them. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 02:25:51 And it's just like, so we're just going to not point at the black people for the rest of the year when you talk about this. while there needs to be, and of course I'm a product of it, like the specificity of a moment to say, I just want to stop right here and say that this person was this,

Starting point is 02:26:06 you know what I'm saying? But like, what are ways for which we can re-embed the female voices, the indigenous voices, the black voices back into just the curriculum,

Starting point is 02:26:18 period, which is bastardized by what MAGA's trying to say. You know what I'm saying? Like the bastardized version of that that is clearly obviously racist. You know what I'm saying? I was like, so like a lot of times

Starting point is 02:26:28 we start talking about this, they'd be like, you know what? That's our point. And I'm like, hold up, because that's not your point. You know what I'm saying? That's not the point you making, right? The point I'm making is saying

Starting point is 02:26:39 we were there the whole time. Yeah. And I would love to have the dignity of being there the whole time. You know what I'm saying? So I say that to echo your point about like, we're just going to stop talking about natives after indigenous?

Starting point is 02:26:54 Like, they was there. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, and it matters today. Like, I just got into it on threads or Instagram or whatever, some platform with some leftist, which is, I'm not, it's not a criticism of leftism. Yeah. But he was saying, like, he was criticizing Kamala Harris's campaign. Fine. I don't care.

Starting point is 02:27:15 Go for it. But he was a white guy. And he was saying she kept making pitches about what she could do for the black community, but she never said what she could do for white. people. And I was like, my good bitch. First of all, you made that up. Like, she went on all black podcast once and you took that to mean that she didn't care about white people. Yeah. And like second of all, what part of like first time home buyer tax credit signals to you, I only care about black people? Yeah. Like the idea that policies or history books or whatever that have black people in them or that would benefit black people, only benefit black people is one of the reasons why we're in this

Starting point is 02:27:59 stupid situation that we're in now. Because the recognition of how black and indigenous and Latino people have been in this country since the beginning, the Spanish have been here longer than the English for what it's worth. Spanish has been spoken in this country longer than English. Yeah. To put a pin in that. That raises everyone's boats. Like policies that benefit our marginalized communities. Yeah. Benefit everyone else. Yeah. Like, The rising tide truly does raise all of the ships. Yeah, totally. And we can't get to an understanding of that without understanding the history.

Starting point is 02:28:30 Because, like, take, for example, what we're dealing with right now. Mostly direct attacks on the 14th Amendment, which is a reconstruction era amendment. That was because us, guys. Yes. And attacks. We're white as that. Yeah. And attacks on the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which was passed to ensure that all black citizens could vote.

Starting point is 02:28:48 It's for us. So the things that are fucking up white people right now are because you don't understand why we got them in the first place. Yes. That's my rant. You cook it. No, you nailed it. That was my exact point.

Starting point is 02:29:00 You're making my exact point. I'm just like, no, this is like we were here. We're part of the country. So last thing is like besides the prediction of not counting Trump going to try to cancel the midterms, which is like I was like, I don't know why we're talking about midterms. He going to try to cancel. But besides that, like who should we who should we have our eye on? What do you think? Oh, for the midterms over 28?

Starting point is 02:29:25 Midterms. Okay. I think we're going to win the midterms. Okay. I think that the decentralization, the federalization of elections the way that every state runs their own elections, I don't see a logistical way for him to prevent that from happening. Period. He could tell states not to have elections, I suppose. The only ones that would obey him would be red states, in which case we would have a congressional election of only Democrats.

Starting point is 02:29:52 that go to the hill. Yeah. Fine. Sounds good to me. That's how we got the Reconstruction era amendment. It was the conservatives in the South, stay home.

Starting point is 02:29:59 Yeah. And didn't go to Congress. So, fine. But I don't think that's going to happen because there are too many Republicans in red states who want to run for governor and you want to be senators. And they're already having fundraisers.

Starting point is 02:30:08 So I do think we're going to have the midterms. And I think we're going to win. And I'm basing that on the special elections that we've been having. For sure. Yeah. Since January of last year. And it's not just, you know,

Starting point is 02:30:18 I mean, special elections are different. We're like plus 13 on average over. performance in special elections, that's not going to replicate itself in the midterms because special elections tend to be like very partisan. People are very dedicated to coming out. But in the last couple of special elections that we've had in Texas, New Jersey, Louisiana, Republicans have flipped. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:30:36 And that is where I'm like, oh, it's in the back. Like maybe the majority won't be huge. I don't know that it's going to be a landslide because they're going to fuck with it, whatever. Voter suppression is real. But I do think that at least the House we're going to win. And the Senate, I'm looking at, I think Alaska is super interesting. North Carolina for sure. Everybody loves word Cooper in North Carolina.

Starting point is 02:30:55 Yeah. Texas. Whether you like Jasmine Crockett or Tala Rico, either one of them are interesting. You know, Texas could be interesting. So, yeah, I think it's... Love it. If I were a Republican, I would be very nervous. You better be because, like, you can't pretzel yourself any worse. Like, I think people forget that, like, ambition didn't die when Trump became president. People still are ambitious. And at some point, you're going to realize, like, shit ain't working, homie. Which brings us the last one.

Starting point is 02:31:21 If we got time, yeah, let me ask you about 2028. What do you think? Third term? It's too. No, God. No, he's not going to make it that long. I was like, he's going to, I keep telling all my friends. I was like, I think you have to accept that he's going to die in office.

Starting point is 02:31:36 Anyway. But yeah. Yeah. He's not going to make that. It's going to be, it's going to be Vance. Although I think he'll have some competition maybe for Marjorie Taylor Green. I think she's going to try to run. I think Marjorie's running.

Starting point is 02:31:47 What about tuck? I don't know. I think he might go for like a. cabinet position. You think so? He's just like this stupid little bow tie. I don't think anybody would go for him. I don't know.

Starting point is 02:31:57 I can't stand that man. I really don't like him. I can't. But yeah. He's so unlikable. But so is J.D. Vance, to be honest. Anyway, on our side, you know, it's so early.

Starting point is 02:32:09 Yeah. And I think that there are people who are starting to poke their heads up and out. Like, I think Osaf in Georgia is starting to be a little. And he's the best fundraiser in the Senate. So the two best fundraisers are actually a ticket I would really be interested in, which is Osaf and AOC. They're the two best fun readers within the party. And that's a ticket I would not be upset about, you know?

Starting point is 02:32:28 Damn. AOC ticket would be crazy. I'm not necessarily on the Newsom train. I'm not going to lie. I'm not really on the Newsom train. Sister. Tell a little secret about how California feels about Newsom. I know. I know. Which is not so much of a secret. Yeah, not so hot.

Starting point is 02:32:44 We definitely be looking at our like, our like, red, our orange counties are our red states. And they'd be like, Gavin Newsom, we're like, yeah, no, yeah, no. Sure, hard agree. Yeah, no, for real. Same, hard agree. Yeah. Anyway.

Starting point is 02:33:00 I appreciate that he was one of the first high-profile Democrats to stand up to Trump in this administration. I appreciate that. That's not good enough reason for me to make a president. Not the president. Yeah, I'm like, you're not, yeah, you're not a flaming bag of shit. I got it. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:33:14 You know what I'm saying? Like, you're a decent. You're not a fascist. Yeah, you're not a fascist. Like, okay, but you're willing to get on a podcast. because for some reason you want, like, I don't understand where your, where's your code, you know? And also I'm like, I don't know, man, you know,

Starting point is 02:33:27 a grown man like that still slicking his hair back is, it's just odd to me. That's going to do it for some, like, 60-year-old ladies in the suburbs, though. He's going to have, like, a Kennedy thing, you know. Like, oh, he's so handsome. But that's also. Osaf is handsome? Osoff's handsome.

Starting point is 02:33:44 Yeah, maybe. Vote with that guy. I don't know, bro. Yeah, no, you just, I feel like you, like, I feel like here's the thing. Here's the thing about we need to end this But the thing about Gavin and me

Starting point is 02:33:53 is I'm like There's this just like sheen To where it's just like Oh you need to be liked And like you know It's this whole like LA transplant thing like Like you know

Starting point is 02:34:04 Where everybody's like Oh it's so Hollywood And we're like natives are like Those are all transplants We're not like that You know what I'm saying So but to me he just has that To where I'm just like

Starting point is 02:34:14 Oh you need to be the prom king You need to like Oh you need this too much You feel me like, and to me, I'm like, I don't, I can't, I can't ride like, this, you need to, you need, you need, you need to be popular too much. I don't. Yeah, I prefer a president. I can't trust you.

Starting point is 02:34:30 Yeah. They need to resent being there a little bit, I feel like, it needs to feel like, you got to like, you got to kind of be like, I'll be all right if it don't work out. Yeah. You know. There needs to be a sense of service. Yeah. Yeah. Man, my camera turns off every half hour.

Starting point is 02:34:43 I don't know why stuff to figure that out. Anyway, but that's a good sign for us to wrap this up. please, can you drop all the ad mentions for your stuff so that these people can enjoy what I enjoy? It's Amanda's mild takes everywhere, except not blue sky. I can't deal with that, but everywhere else. Yeah, Amanda's mild takes with the Petty'sburg Address. It's brilliant. Thank you so much for your time.

Starting point is 02:35:07 Thank you. We appreciate it. Y'all, go please, you know, she'll be over there dropping jams. It's just a good time. Canadian women are looking for more. More into themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart.

Starting point is 02:35:34 And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast and IHart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Minelick Lamouba.

Starting point is 02:35:57 It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. Have both been assassinated. And Black America was out of breaking point. Writing and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's Al-Mermata, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history,

Starting point is 02:36:18 Martin Luther King Sr., and a young student, Samuel L. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people would die. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A building on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

Starting point is 02:36:52 you get your podcast. I'm Bowen-Yin. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Quartina-26 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Boen, hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo.

Starting point is 02:37:09 Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn?

Starting point is 02:37:31 That it's earned. That it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boysover podcast, and each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle. I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed.

Starting point is 02:37:57 The thing about romantic fiction, I would say, more than any other genre of culture, is that it's always put women first. My marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off. The behavior started to feel different. This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. I'm like, I would love to not hate the man.

Starting point is 02:38:20 I'm sleeping with. I don't know what that's about. Listen to Boy Sober. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is It Could Happen here, an executive disorder. Our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Sophie Lickderman, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This episode, we're covering the week of February 4th to February 11th.

Starting point is 02:38:54 It was the Super Bowl. Wasn't that fun. I heard it was streaming on Peacock this year, so I booted up my Peacock account, went to the sports section, and was surprised at how few Americans there were and how many other flags there were. And I do not remember this much skating typically at previous Super Bowl shows or the ski jumping. But, I mean, it was still fun to watch people compete. Uh-huh. Yeah. This is because I was watching the Winter Olympics.

Starting point is 02:39:25 Get it? I did. I did get it. Good work, Gere. No, fun stuff. What's your favorite Winter Olympics event, Garrison, as a Canadian? Honestly, the ski jumping is pretty exciting. They really fly.

Starting point is 02:39:37 Yeah, they do. That video of that guy that went viral, that did, like, a under six-minute mile on skis uphill. Yeah, going uphill. That was crazy. To be clear, he's not going for a mile. Like, he just goes uphill. Like, the whole course is, like, a mile-ish. Well.

Starting point is 02:39:55 But, yeah, still, cross-country skiers have insane views. Oh, 2 Max's cross-country ski when I get the chance. It's fun. I don't go that fast. But no, we do need to discuss the actual Super Bowl halftime show. Actually, well, no, not the actual one, the other one. Yeah. The All-American halftime show.

Starting point is 02:40:14 Oh, maybe I'll just say the kid who Bad Bunny gave his Grammy to was not the same child who you saw being abducted by ice in a little blue bunny hat. No, it was supposed to symbolize a young Benito. Him. Yeah, not anything else. It really was not. There was a lot of underlying messages in that show that were very important, but it would be weird. It would be weird if he put in a kid that looked like the five-year-old that was abducted in prison by ICE to give him a Grammy.

Starting point is 02:40:44 It would have been really off-putting. Would not have been a cool move. Yeah, that would have been bad. Just to say, it was a great half-time show. I enjoyed it thoroughly. And now here's a clip of the All-American halftime show. The real halftime show. With our favorite kid rock, ready?

Starting point is 02:41:06 Mm-hmm. Somebody makes some motherfucking noise in here. There's nobody there. There's like nobody there. This is not. This is not from the show. This is from Silicon Valley. This was a joke that they did on the TV show Silicon Valley, which looks

Starting point is 02:41:29 almost exactly like hilarious, the turning point halftime show. I was about to say, I didn't hear that aside from the shorts, the,

Starting point is 02:41:37 I thought that was a new angle. They did have more people in the crowd, but they were hired actors, but they did have more people in the crowd. Shockingly, it lines up. Our colleague,

Starting point is 02:41:46 Molly Cunger, described his outfit as needed to run out to Home Depot to pick up us part for something. And I think that's really funny. He's in like shorts

Starting point is 02:41:56 and like a t-shirt and has a wrist brace. so. It's great. We'll get to Kid Rock in a sec, but let's start at the beginning. While watching the turning point stream, there was no indication

Starting point is 02:42:10 where the show was being broadcast from or whether it was live, but four performers sang back to back to back, indicating the show was cut together from previously taped performances. Yes. The venue was this dark, narrow, rectangular room with high ceilings and studio lights.

Starting point is 02:42:26 In the middle was a long stage with a small audience on either side, maybe 200 people tops. But the show was introduced by none other than Jack Fasobic, which I will show now. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Turning Point USA, All-American Half-Time Show. And this one's for you, Charlie. Great stuff. So that's the stuff. 446 down votes on Rumble.

Starting point is 02:42:57 Uh-huh. That's rough. Yeah. Yeah, and I watched this. I will admit, I watched it after the actual halftime show, because it was on YouTube, and there was no reason to actually catch it during the Super Bowl. And by the way, the viewership number suggests that most people who did catch it watched it after the Super Bowl. Yes.

Starting point is 02:43:15 Because it's weird to pause or to turn off the sound in the middle of the Super Bowl and pull up like a laptop or something to go watch the fucking Turning Point USA show. Yeah. It was really cumbersome, really anti-social. behavior at the Super Bowl party to turn off the stream. Plug in your laptop. Go to rumble.com. If you are doing that, your kids have not talked to you longer than they've been alive. Like, they abandoned you before they were born. Well, President Trump watched the actual Super Bowl halftime show. Of course he did. There's photos of him watching it. He knows that this is

Starting point is 02:43:52 losers shit. Yeah. It's just about the loserist loser shit that I have ever seen. And right after Jack But Sobic introduced it. It cuts to this. You've got this black stage and there's like an amp on the stage and a guy walks up to it with a guitar. Not a guy. Brantley Gilbert, okay, some respect. That's Brantley.

Starting point is 02:44:11 Okay, that's Brantley. I was going to introduce his name afterwards. But Garrison, you miss something important because Brantley Gilbert's band is where this guy is from. But the all-electric guitar performance of the Star-Spangled Banner is led by the great guitarist Spencer Wosdor. Wow. Who? Who?

Starting point is 02:44:33 Sponsor Wazdor? Where are they finding these guys? Is that a stage name or is that a... He's in Brantley Gilbert's band, Garrison. This all sounds like, and I think you should leave sketch? Yeah. Like, I'm making up these names. No, the whole performance was that I think you should leave sketch.

Starting point is 02:44:50 But no, it's beautiful electric guitar riff of the Star Spangled Banner, opening the show. Do you have a clip for us, Garrison? No, I got a clip to play. play because there's a moment here. They had pyrotechnics during the show, like the real show had. But they're not good. They were better for the kid rock performance.

Starting point is 02:45:09 For the electric guitars, they're just kind of sad, and they make a sad little popping stone. Well, again, a single man is playing guitar on stage. Jimmy Hendricks played the Star Spangled Banner on guitar, but he was good at playing guitar. But he was one of the best guitar players overlived. It's a little different.

Starting point is 02:45:26 It does seem like a high yardstick that they've chosen to measure themselves against. We'll talk about that in a sec, but I got to show you guys. You just need to see the pop of these pyrotechnics just for a second. And you, the listener, needs to hear it. Is that it?

Starting point is 02:45:51 It's giving village fireworks display. I lost my shit when I saw it. Who's it? Oh, that's beautiful. That's great. I don't know what you're talking about. I loved it. Per what you were saying earlier,

Starting point is 02:46:03 there's a New York Times article for fuck sake. that the original title it was published under was the All-American Half-Time featured an electric anthem unlike Hendricks. Now, they changed that title in the reporter's notebook article to what does a wailing electric take on the star-spangled banner mean? I'm glad that they are getting to the core of the issues,

Starting point is 02:46:29 the publication that ignored all my pictures about Myanmar for several years. Yeah, no, it's good. This is much more important. Let's listen to a quote from this article that I think we can all agree matters much more than a war. In musical terms, Wazdorpe's version of the Star-Spangled Banner was conservative too. Despite the bent notes and feedback, it largely stuck to the melody and conveyed a reverent of stubborn form of patriotism. I don't know. I kind of loved it.

Starting point is 02:46:57 What do you mean? No, it was terrible. It's terrible. Hard watch, hard watch. That was the best part of it. I hate to say it, but unfortunately, the pyrotechnics were basically competent for the kid rock show, which might have been the only competent part of the kid rock show. Yeah, I want to hear the kidd roke show.

Starting point is 02:47:14 I haven't... I think there's some other hits from this, from this show, though. You're right. That's not fair. Including Brantley Gilbert's second song, which starts as a slow acoustic ballad, and then abruptly changes into whatever this is. He's trying to He is trying to rap He is trying to rap

Starting point is 02:47:38 He's trying to rap He's trying to rap. He's trying to rap. He is trying to rap. He is trying. Small town, he said, she said. I'm not going to read into what those lyrics are trying to express. Whoa.

Starting point is 02:47:55 But that was the second song. I would have skipped to the third act, which is Lee Bryce. He started his second song by saying, quote, Charlie gave people microphones so that they could say what was on their mind. This is what's on mine. And this next song starts like a parody of a conservative country song. Here's the beginning.

Starting point is 02:48:18 I just want to catch my fish, drive my truck, drink my beer. Not wake up to all this stuff I don't want to hear. I just want to catch my fish. I just want to catch my fish. I'm getting a little teary-eyed, honestly. Let's just listen it to that. The next part is insane. The next line is...

Starting point is 02:48:44 Okay, I'm coming at this rule. This is the next slide of the song. The same kind of gun I hunt with just killed another man. The only thing mine ever shot was a deer from a deer stand. That's the next line. Why are you including that? That, man. Lyrical genius.

Starting point is 02:49:03 Why would you do that in a song? And the way he sings it is so bizarre. It's fucked up. Oh, it's about Charlie Cug. I would like to hear it. Oh, I'm just realizing. What is he doing? What is happening?

Starting point is 02:49:27 The gun violence problem is bad enough that he has to, like, make a comment about it existing and being depressing. he has to do that, but then immediately, because the next bit after this, most of the song is basically about, I don't want to listen to the news. Correct. Like, I don't want to watch things that remind me that. The very next verse is, I just want to cut my grass, feed my dog, wear my boots, not turn the TV on and sit and watch the news. That's an option for you. Like, you can do that.

Starting point is 02:49:58 I was going to say, that's very doable, friend. That's entirely doable for you. Folks, you could do that. And I'm sure he is. But this is what he's scared of hearing on the news. Be told if I tell my own daughter. The little boys ain't little girl. Hell yeah.

Starting point is 02:50:16 There it is. Of the creek in this cancel your ass world. But then he said it. He put it in a song. Oh, my God. I almost choked. Wow. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:50:33 Again, man, you're you're being paid. to sing about this. It's amazing. In fact, it is your job because you're not there for your musical abilities. It's your presumably well-paying job. Yeah. The whole repeated refrain of the song is it's not so easy being country in this country nowadays.

Starting point is 02:50:52 You guys are in charge. The entire song? Question. Who is at this event? How many people? Where is it? About 200 paid attendees in Atlanta, Georgia at a soundstage. Paid attendees.

Starting point is 02:51:05 paid attendees, crucial. Yeah. Okay. A lot of like fresh Detsons and like unbroken in boots in the audience maybe. There is so many cowboy hats in the audience. You don't understand. It's like a bar in Jackson, Wyoming. I get the vibe.

Starting point is 02:51:19 There's so many of them. And you're like, you're in Atlanta. Not many people wear cowboy hats in Atlanta. I'm sorry. It's not like Texas or Oklahoma. Yeah. No, I love to see someone in a freshly purchased set. The next song after this country one,

Starting point is 02:51:35 Well, they're all country songs. But the next song is what I think is a love song that goes, quote, sometimes I drink too much, sometimes I test your trust, sometimes I don't know why you stay with me, I'm hard to love. Which maybe that's related to the last song you were singing, maybe a little bit about bullying your children. Wow. Sick.

Starting point is 02:52:03 Oh, man. But finally, finally the main act, right? What we've all been waiting for. Kid rock. I'm going to play a little over a minute for us. We're not going to include all of this in the episode. We're just going to include the I Am a Kid section. But I do need to show this all to James.

Starting point is 02:52:21 Yeah, because this is, I think a lot about, like, there's that Steve Goodman parody country song that you couldn't write today because it's better musically and less ridiculous than the actual country songs. We're hearing. All right, James. Are you ready? Always. I've never seen this before.

Starting point is 02:52:50 All right. That's good. Wow. That's enough. That's more than enough. There's a lot to talk about that. Yeah, we got to unpack some of this. He was better at the R&C.

Starting point is 02:52:59 He's flipping that. He's flipping that mic nonstop. He loves that move. But his name is kidding. But that's how we got the wrist injury. I will say the first guys to play had a mic with a pair of brass knuckles. built into it, which I did like. I think we do need a version of that that's

Starting point is 02:53:17 a full knuckle duster from World War I, so it's got the trench knife on the other side. Perfect, yeah. We can use that for life shows. At least take a risk. Don't be a coward every time you flip the mic. Yeah, take a risk. Be a man.

Starting point is 02:53:31 As the Kid Rock Lates turn on, he explosively jumps on to the stage, white fur coat, acid washed jeans, black fedora. Yeah, I used to be a piece of shit. Jeans, Garrison, these are jorts. They are cut off above the knee. Jorts.

Starting point is 02:53:47 And second correction, it was a white fur coat vest. Coat vest. Yeah, it's a jelais. It's a vest. And I should note also that his fedora did not have the safari flaps. I repeat, it did not have the safari flaps. But it is leather, like a shiny black leather, not a breathable hat. It's beautiful.

Starting point is 02:54:08 It's beautiful to see. It really is, and I think you should leave sketchy. come to life. It's so good. He just jumps around and flipping that mic. How long does he perform? How many songs do we get? He gets like two or three songs. None of the audio for the song matches what we're seeing on screen. It's completely out of sync. The sinking is totally off. Leading a lot of people to suspect that it was it was lip synced on stage poorly. We'll get to that in a sec. But the next song began with a two-minute prelude featuring the cello and violin.

Starting point is 02:54:43 Oh, sick. Is it one of those, like, it's just the frame of a cello? Oh, James, you'll see. I'm going to see a fucking offense to God. That's a real cello. Wow. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting outfit.

Starting point is 02:54:59 The cellist dressed pinder like Ben Franklin. Why is he dressed like that? Yeah, one of the three musketeers is playing cello for those you're listening at home. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome our brother, Robert Rich. Robert Richie is Kid Rock. That's his real government name. They reintroduce him under his legal name for the second song.

Starting point is 02:55:23 Kid Rocks are not born. They're made. Those people who introduced him, what was their, that was it for them? Unclear. Okay. They only existed on screen to introduce Kid Rock as Kid Rock the first time and then as Richie Russell, Rishie Russell, whatever his name. Robert Richard. Robert.

Starting point is 02:55:39 Whatever his real name is. That's the only time they appear. appeared was to introduce Kid Rock both times. Now, after the show, it was revealed that this whole thing was pre-taped on a sound stage in Atlanta. And a few days later, Kid Rock released a video addressing the rumors that his performance was lip synced, which he denies. You know, we taped it, and then they sent me a first cut.

Starting point is 02:56:01 And my comment was, the sink is off. They were trying to line up. First off, if we would have done it, if we would have recorded it and then played like we were singing it, lip synced it. It would have been pie. It would have been pie to line up. It was very difficult for them because somebody clearly wasn't super familiar with the song. Also, when I asked him, I go, you know, Freddie wraps that song with me by DJ.

Starting point is 02:56:25 And they're like, he does what? And I'm like, oh, no. I'm like, yeah, do we have any cutaways of Freddie? And they, no, they didn't. He wasn't, we lit up? No. He didn't even have a lineup. Any TV time?

Starting point is 02:56:38 No. Sorry, no. I mean, you can see my silver one. So they don't have that footage. Now, it's extremely difficult for them to light up the sink. It could have been done if we had more time. I'm confident they could have got it right. Let's pour one out for Freddie.

Starting point is 02:56:54 Kid Rock's DJ. No screen time. So Mr. Rock said that Turning Point was having trouble lining up the audio with the visuals in part because the song is actually performed vocally by two people going back and forth. Wow. And Turning Point did not have a camera on the other vocalist. So that's why it looks weird when there's obviously vocals being heard, but Mr. Rock isn't singing.

Starting point is 02:57:19 And again, the reason why no one at Turning Point is familiar with Kid Rock's music is that even they don't like Kid Rock's music. And Mr. Rock demonstrated how this is, you know, supposed to go in this video with his DJ, which we do need to see 30 seconds up. Thank you. Oh, thanks, Gare. Garrett, I love you so much. No, I'm sorry, Sophie. We need to have a conversation about this. This is in violation of several rules the company has said.

Starting point is 02:57:51 I just want to call out the fact that there is a pike behind them. And I do mean the fish that has been taxidermied. Yeah. Not what you normally expect. I would have expected the other kind of pike behind Garrison. No, that seems like Mr. Rock's abode, actually. This feels very on brand for him. Is that a drone?

Starting point is 02:58:08 No, that's a deer antler turned into a candlestick. Yeah, it looks like a deer turned into a candlestick. Classy. Okay. My gosh. Although from a distance, it does kind of look like a bad 3D printing of Deep Space 9. Yeah. It's for my hookers all tricking out in Hollywood.

Starting point is 02:58:25 It's for my hoods of the world misunderstood. I said, it's all good. Yeah, and it's all in fun. Now, get in the pet, you got a long so wild. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, dear. I'm having a physical reaction.

Starting point is 02:58:42 I've cringed with every muscle in my body. Here's how he explains how it's supposed to go. So he's filling those words for me so I can bang my head, keep going and carrying on. Now, when I'm doing that, you see me, I'm over the stage. Ooh, I'm flipping the mic. I'm down here. I'm over here, back. Boom.

Starting point is 02:59:01 I know these guys have a difficult time getting that sink together. So I have nothing but good things to say, not only about turning point, but the production team that they work with on this and other events they've done. My favorite part about live music is when you post a over four-minute clip video explaining how it was... A four-minute, 50-second video. About how it was supposed to go and explaining to people things that don't actually exist. No, his whole delivery sounds like a Tim Robinson bit. It's so beautiful.

Starting point is 02:59:31 Incredible. The Bad Bunny Hatham show averaged 135.4 million viewers during the show's time slot. And Apple Music claims it's now the most watched show in Super Bowl history. Meanwhile, TP USA's show attracted upwards of 6.1 million concurrent live viewers on Turning Point USA's YouTube channel due to licensing restrictions. Turning Point was unable to stream the show on X-D-Eeverything app as they originally planned. Which got announced like an hour before. Right before. But that's probably why they didn't hit 135 million because 129 of them were waiting.

Starting point is 03:00:03 Otherwise, they would have got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The All-American Hathtime show now boasts 23 million views on their YouTube and Rumble pages combined. The Bad Bunny show is 70 million. A lot of these views are also people like me and other researchers. For sure. And just, you know, curious Americans who are interested in what they had to throw together. But a footage from inside Trump's Super Bowl party shows that even he did not turn into the All-American Half-Time show. Now it's time for you to tune into these ads. Shall we do the real news now?

Starting point is 03:00:55 Sure. So on Monday, February 9th, 2026, about three days before we recorded this, there was a student-led walkout protesting federal immigration arrests and protesting in large part last year's massive ICE actions in Chicago and students from a number of different high schools walked out. this included students from East Aurora High School, where there was a notable, clash is the word, or skirmish is the word, like skirmish is what Shaw Local News described it as between protesters and police. There's video, and at least from the limited clip of video we have, I wouldn't call it a skirmish. I would call it police getting pissed and assaulting some kids, but we don't see the rest of the interaction.

Starting point is 03:01:39 This is apparently something that went on for a couple of hours, so I don't know, like, what led up to this. I can tell you the video shows what looks like some high school kids walking in kind of a line outside of their high school. There's some police by the police are clearly talking to or maybe yelling at one of the kids. And then as the video comes in, an officer just charges in and tackles hard, like a running tackle, a teenage boy, like a child smaller than him, which leads to several other police officers grabbing kids. at least one student punches a police officer in the head while the officer is on top of his friend, beating his friend. The police only responded by saying, like, look, you know, we had to act. A student punched a police officer from the Shaw Local article. The police department said the officer who was punched was transported to a local hospital for medical attention for his injuries. They don't show he and his colleagues like literally tackling kids first before they get hit.

Starting point is 03:02:33 If somebody tackles my friend next to me, I might start punching. That's just life. Yeah. And it's a, this is kind of an ongoing story at the moment. I don't know like what's going to wind up being the result of this, but it inspired at least initially a lot of anger. And there have been further protest as a result of the police violence. Students in the area are now demanding the resignation of the police chief in East Aurora. The police have not really like acknowledged those demands yet. I don't know if this is going to turn into like a. larger protest movement. There's some signs that maybe it will, that there may be further walkouts specifically as a result of the police violence. But this is a situation we will be watching, obviously seeing police violently beating kids for, you know, speaking, for doing the thing they should be doing at high school, which is experimenting with believing things and taking stands. So we'll be watching this to see kind of what results next. But that's sort of where we are at the moment. Yeah, that video is pretty brutal. Let's talk a little bit more about some of

Starting point is 03:03:38 immigration stuff. Let's start with police in, shall we? I have reviewed the police report for the ICE officer who in late January negligently discharged his issued handgun in a hotel room. Bradley Shaver was attempting to fix a backstrap from his Glock. I'll quote the report here. Quote, with his back facing room 320 and the firearm pointed in the area of Bradley's torso, he attempted to remove the backstrap that was currently on the firearm while it was still loaded. At some point, the firearm discharged. Luckily, the occupant of that room had just checked into the hotel and was walking to their room when the shot was fired, so there was no one injured. I will quote again from the report. Initially, the agent thought the gunshot came from somewhere else, and he yelled, shots fired,

Starting point is 03:04:30 and then told his wife he had to go and hang up. Shaber then felt heat on the left side of his body, looked down and saw the damage to his shirt and realized the shot. shot had come from his own weapon. He said the round went through his sweatshirt and the shirt underneath but did not penetrate his underarmic compression layer or injure him. It seems like this person was attempting to repair or remove a part from his gun that was still loaded and he didn't think to unload the gun. All of this is stuff you shouldn't do, right?

Starting point is 03:05:01 Yeah. You have to check before you do stuff to a gun to make sure. it's unloaded. And even when you've checked to make sure it's unloaded, you should still act like it's loaded and do stuff like not have your finger on the trigger and make sure it's clear of a holster so that there's nothing that like, especially like a leather holster where maybe stuff could get bowed in and pull the trigger. You just don't do any of the things he was doing with a gun, especially if you're a cop, but also you do all the things he did with a gun if you're a cop, because this happens regularly. Yeah. At this case, a 30-year veteran who had just returned.

Starting point is 03:05:37 and after two years of retirement. I want to talk a little bit now about Liam Conejo Ramos. This is the five-year-old who was detained in Minneapolis last month. People will remember seeing images of him in a blue bunny hat. Liam and his father were detained on 20th of January in his driveway after returning from school. They were order released by Judge Fred Beery, who wrote in his order, quote, observing human behavior confirms that for some among us, the perfidious lust for unbridled power and the imposition of cruelty in its quest

Starting point is 03:06:10 know no bounds and are bereft of human decency and the rule of law be damned. You can tell the judge was incredibly pissed off for the government. I'll put it that way. DHS then attempted to expedite the removal of Conejo Ramos and his family, but the family were granted a continuance by his judge. Liam and his father is Adrian Conejo Arias. or Arias. I've seen like various permutations of his father's name, I think perhaps because some people doing reporting are not familiar with how last names are generally configured in

Starting point is 03:06:46 the Spanish-speaking world. So I'm not quite sure how his last name is pronounced. But Liam and his father entered in December of 2024. When they were detained, they were detained at Dilley. Dilley is a detention center for families, right? It is a place that I have reported on before. In my Daryan follow-up series, I spoke about Primrose and Kimberly, who were both detained at Dilley, and they went into some detail about the conditions there. I'm glad to see that Dillie is getting more attention in sort of bigger, more legacy media outlets now.

Starting point is 03:07:23 I also saw that there was a protest at Dilley, seemingly while Liam was there. And we can see this because of drone footage of people walking out of the buildings and assembling in sort of spaces in between the buildings. And they can be heard chanting in some of that footage. Now, when I move on to something I've seen DHS doing recently, which is they're trying to push back against the evidence that they are using schools and children as bait to detain non-citizens, right? I just spoke about how Liam was detained, right? it was the fact that he was at school that allowed those agents to target his father, right? I believe they got Liam to knock on the door and his dad came out, which obviously was part of the reason that this particular attention was so controversial. DHS in a post on X said, quote, ICE is not going to schools to arrest children.

Starting point is 03:08:18 A dangerous illegal alien felon fleeing into a school or a child sex offender working as an employee may create a situation. where an arrest is made to protect public safety. Criminals are no longer able to hide in America's schools to avoid arrest. Potus Trump and Secretary Nome trusts our brave law enforcement to use common sense. We will not tie the hands of law enforcement officers. They must be allowed to protect children from public safety threats. Obviously, if someone is a sex offender, they can't work at a school. Right. That's a tough background checks work.

Starting point is 03:08:53 The DHS tweet includes a screenshot of a Houston Chronicle article which details how HISD has lost 4,000 students due to the ice crackdown, right? This is students who are, for the most part, afraid to come to school, and they've seen a 22% decline in migrant student enrollment. Obviously, I just want to note that ICE has detained parents outside schools. And a note of incident last year, they detained a 15-year-old disabled boy in Los Angeles. Finally, from me, I want to talk about some legislation that is being proposed in the state of Washington. The state of Washington's House Bill 2321 proposes legislation that focuses on what it calls blocking features that must be integrated into 3D printers to prevent their use in creating firearms. Blocking features are, I'm quoting here,

Starting point is 03:09:46 a software controls process that deploys a firearms blueprint detection algorithm such that those features identify and reject print requests for firearms or a legal firearm path with a high degree of reliability and cannot be overridden or otherwise defeated by a user with significant technical skill. What this would effectively do is either prevent the sale of 3D printers in Washington state or in, install state level spyware onto 3D printers, which would obviously be able to be used for things far beyond firearms. And people have notably been 3D printing whistles a great deal in Minneapolis right there. So there's been lots of coverage of this. I think it would be very naive for people to think that this would start and end with the creation of unregistered firearms. Yeah. No, they'll go, I mean, they'll do stuff like try to enforce games, workshops, copyrights, and stop them for printing models or whatever. Exactly. Right.

Starting point is 03:10:46 It opens a whole world of IP enforcement in 3D printing, and it more or less ends. The thing that I find beautiful about 3D printing is not that I can make little plastic things in my office. It shows me that people will choose to create beautiful and innovative things, even when there is not a profit incentive for doing so. Yes. And here's the thing. It would be a different discussion if this were a country where the only way to get a gun was to 3D print it, but it's not. Yes.

Starting point is 03:11:17 Washington State, right? You do not have to drive that far from Washington State to a state where it would be perfectly legal to do a private party transfer in the Walmart parking lot. Yep. And also, there's just a lot of guns in Washington, like there are in Oregon, like there is everywhere in the country. And to the extent that 3D printed firearms are used for crime, they tend to be used, like, specifically in gang crime, where if the 3D printed gun isn't available,

Starting point is 03:11:46 the professional criminals will access a separate gun. Americans are not overwhelmingly using 3D printed firearms to shoot up schools. They're using perfectly normally purchased firearms to shoot up schools. Yeah, that's what we do. Because this country is full of guns. Yeah, the state of California is also pursuing a case against 3D printed firearms code hosting websites. California passed an extremely broad law last year that prohibits the hosting distribution. and promotion of the quote,

Starting point is 03:12:18 unlawful manufacture of firearms. This has significant repercussions for the First Amendment, right? Like, the code itself is not a tangible thing. It's not a gun. It is speech. But in this case, it is the instructions to allow the machine to create a gun, right?

Starting point is 03:12:33 Yeah. It appears that there are over a hundred other people indicted in this case. I'm guessing that those are probably the designers who posted their STLs for firearms on the catalog. I think that the evidence also suggests that's unlikely to hold up in court.

Starting point is 03:12:50 Yeah. Because like right now there's a case over the Kansas laws that are mandating like you have age, basically restrictions on websites and the like. And there was a lawsuit from like a mom who alleged that despite this, her kid was able to access a website that was located out of the state because it didn't have any of these restrictions. And the judge in Kansas ruled like, well, our law doesn't restrict people in other states. They don't have to have like that.

Starting point is 03:13:15 Like, that's just, you can't actually enforce this. Yeah. So we'll see how it goes in California. Yeah. California's suing for damages in this case. It's a civil case on a criminal one. Sure. But still, I mean, there have been a lot of cases about 3D printed guns and how they are covered under the First Amendment.

Starting point is 03:13:35 So, yeah, I'm going to keep an eye on this because I guess, like, there are attacks on the First Amendment from just about every angle right now. and I think we should pay attention to that. That is all I have. Shall we take a little break and then talk about paedophiles? Sure. I love talking about paedophiles. That's what we do. I don't.

Starting point is 03:14:09 We're back. This is yet another episode of the petophiles. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I volunteered to do this section. These are Epstein updates as of today, which is Wednesday. Yeah. February 11th, there were quite a few things.

Starting point is 03:14:26 We just finished recording a four-parter on him for bastards, and there's more new shit. Yeah. It just keeps coming. It is endless. It really is. I want to start off, which at the top of the week, Elaine Maxwell was supposed to speak to the House Oversight Committee, and she was called in for questioning. And during a video call, just so folks know she is serving age. 20-year sentence for sex trafficking at a federal prison camp in Texas.

Starting point is 03:14:57 But she invoked her Fifth Amendment right to avoid answering questions that would be self-incriminating. This was expected. But her lawyer's statement was interesting, so I'm going to read it to the audience now. Members of the committee, on my advice, Glenn Maxwell, respectfully invoke her Fifth Amendment right to silence and decline to answer your questions today, even though she would very much like to answer your questions. She must remain silent because Ms. Maxwell has a habeas petition, clearly pending that demonstrates that her conviction rests on a fundamentally unfair trial. For example, jurors lie during Voidier to secure seats on the jury and the government promised immunity and then broke that promise.

Starting point is 03:15:36 Louis-disghost documents now demonstrate these facts conclusively. If this committee in the American public truly want to hear the unfiltered truth about what happened, there is a straightforward path. Ms. Maxwell is prepared to speak fully and honestly, if granted Clemens, by President Trump. Sure. Only she can provide the complete account. Oh, I bad. Some may not like what they hear, but the truth matters.

Starting point is 03:16:00 For example, both President Trump and President Clinton are innocent of any wrongdoing. Ms. Maxwell alone can explain why, and the public is entitled to that explanation. Thank you. Look, I'll talk to Donald Trump if I can get immunity for some things. She's like, by the way, would love to speak. Gonna need immunity. Yeah. The guy that could grant me clemency, I can vouch for that guy.

Starting point is 03:16:33 That's the most, doesn't commit crimes thing a person could possibly say. Wild. Yeah. I'm moving on to another guy that was all over the Epstein files, Casey Wasserman. Casey Wasserman. Robert just said that like he knew the guy. Oh, yeah, no, that's what I always called him. Jason Wasserman. He's the founder and CEO of Wasserman, which is a talent agency slash sports marketing agency. And the reason I'm bringing this up is for two reasons. There's two things I want to discuss here. The first one is that since this got announced, he's had major clients, major stars, as well as athletes, say, that's gross. And I'm not going to work with you anymore. And I've left the agency, which is fucking cool.

Starting point is 03:17:12 Which is good. It's what you should do if you find out that you are working for someone in the Epstein files. Yeah. Someone who was specifically communicating consistently with Epstein after his conviction, right? There's a lot of people who are named in the files. A lot of random journalists whose articles got shared in the files or something. Yes, yes, yes. Big name stars here. We're talking like Chapel Roan.

Starting point is 03:17:36 You're so annoyed. You're so annoyed. Like Chapel Roan was probably the first big name to be like, ew, I'm out. Yeah. And another big part of this is Casey Wasserman is. leading the preparations for the 2008 Summer Olympic Games that are going to be located in Los Angeles.

Starting point is 03:17:54 And per Fox L.A. The LA 2028 board officially supported Chair Casey Wasserman in Wednesday, rejecting calls for his recognition following an independent misconduct review. While multiple L.A. elected officials demanded he step down.

Starting point is 03:18:10 The board cited his strong leadership and cooperations as reasons for his retention. Ew. I can't believe the good name of the Olympics finally has a stain on it's right now. I know. Who would have thought? Can you imagine the Olympics being associated with a bad man? I love the Olympics. This sucks. How will I watch trampoline? Uh-huh. What about Luge?

Starting point is 03:18:32 Wait, no, that's only in the winter. That's happening right. That's already happening. Yeah, you can watch Luge. Yeah, you're right. The one good sport in the Olympics is already happening, so we're fine. We have to be clear on this. Luge has no links to the Jeffrey Epstein files that we know of. The Italian Luzh Olympics, completely clean. No problems. Now I want to move on to probably the biggest story of the week, which is Attorney General Pambondi took heated questions from lawmakers and a competitive congressional hearing over the Justice Department's handling and the files related to Jeffrey Epstein that exposed

Starting point is 03:19:07 sensitive private information about victims despite redaction efforts per the AP. She framed-monged everyone at this year. In my opinion, this was the most outrageously unprofessional, shameful, centurable, and sickening congressional hearing in history. And she is a disgrace and disgusting. And yeah, I want to get into a little bit of it. I want to start by playing a clip from Representative Raskin. He's the Democratic Congressman from Maryland. And he is the Democratic Ranking House member of the committee on the judiciary.

Starting point is 03:19:42 You're running a massive Epstein cover up right out of the district. Department of Justice. You've been ordered by subpoena and by Congress to turn over 6 million documents, photographs, and videos in Epstein files, but you've turned over only 3 million. You say you're not turning over the other 3 million because they're somehow duplicative, but we know that there are actual memos of victim statements in there, and you also took down the Department of Justice's prosecution memo from 2019. So it's clearly not all duplicative, but even if it were, why not release it? Just release all the duplicative stuff. In the half you did reduce, you redacted the names of abusers, enablers, accomplices, and co-conspirators,

Starting point is 03:20:28 apparently to spare them embarrassment and disgrace, which is the exact opposite of what the law ordered you to do. Even worse, you shockingly failed to redact many of the victim's names, which is what you were ordered to do by Congress. Congress. Some of the victims had come forward publicly, but many had not. Many had kept their torment private, even from family and friends, but you published their names, their identities, their images on thousands of pages for the world to see. So you ignored the law, and even with over 100,000 employees at your disposal, you acted with some mixture of staggering incompetence cold indifference and jaded cruelty towards more than 1,000 victims raped, abused, and trafficked.

Starting point is 03:21:24 This performance screams cover up. I can't even begin to describe how vile and disgusting it is that they have doxed these survivors of Epstein without their consent. Yeah. It is traumatizing enough that they. had to endure this. Now they've had what happened to them put on display and now they are going to be targeted and they have not had the ability to speak up if they wanted to on what happened. But the government, despite being told to not out these survivors, did it but covered the names of the people that committed these.

Starting point is 03:22:14 crimes. It is unspeakably disgusting. Sorry. Well, I feel great. It's really upsetting. Yeah. It's really deeply disgusting and upsetting. For sure. I thought ranking member Raskin spoke very clearly here, and I appreciated his statement. Yeah. Moving on, Bondi's tactics during this were to deflect, deflect, deflect. There was a couple of instances that I want to play for everyone now. Yeah, you could assign this to a class. And like, if you're talking about every way that, like, the modern Republican Party tries to deflect culpability for anything negative,

Starting point is 03:23:03 like they all got deployed one after the other in this. So there were Epstein survivors in person and Fondon. wouldn't even look at them. I want to play a clip from when she's asked to address them here. To the survivors in the room, if you are willing, please stand. And if you are willing, please raise your hands if you have still not been able to meet with this Department of Justice. Please know for the record that every single survivor has raised their hand. Attorney General Bondi, you apologize to the survivors in your opening statement for what they went through

Starting point is 03:23:55 at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein. Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your Department of Justice has put them through with the absolutely unacceptable release of the Epstein files

Starting point is 03:24:13 and their information? Congresswoman, you set before Merritt Garland set in this Chair twice. Attorney General Bondi. Can I finish my answer? No, I'm going to reclaim my time because I asked you a specific question that I would like you to answer,

Starting point is 03:24:38 which is, will you turn to the survivors? This is not about anybody that came before you. It is about you taking responsibility for your Department of Justice and the harm that it has done to the survivors who are standing right behind you and are waiting. for you to turn to them and apologize for what your Department of Justice system. Members, members get to ask the questions, the witness get to answer, and the way they want to answer. That's not accurate, Mr. Chairman. Because she doesn't like the answer. So, Mr. Chairman, why? I have asked a question. I'm reclaimed my time and when I will continue to answer.

Starting point is 03:25:21 I'm not going to get in the gutter for her theatrics. The time belongs to the time, the time belongs to the gentle lady. The gentle lady has 17 seconds. Thank you. You're not going to answer this question. So let me just say this. Chairman, I'll direct it to you. What a massive cover-up. Mr. Chairman, will you restore her time? The witnesses are interrupted. I'm not going to get in the gutter with this woman. She's doing theatrics. Let me have my general lady. The general lady from Washington controls the time. The general lady has 17 seconds. You can, you can proceed with your final 17 seconds. What a massive cover-up this has been and continues to be Donald Trump made the release of the Epstein files. The

Starting point is 03:25:56 center of his political campaign because he thought it would benefit him. Then you got into office attorney general, claimed to have a client list, only to them say that there was no list. Your deputy, Todd Blanche, met alone with Elaine Maxwell and transferred her to a minimum security prison. And now you continue the cover up. And I wish that you would turn around to the survivors who are standing right behind you and on a human level. Chairman, They're now recognizes the chair of what you have done. Oh, man.

Starting point is 03:26:30 I yield back. You have no time to yield back. Yeah. Despicable. Oh, man. Disgusting. Dispigable. She did not ever turn around and look at these survivors that are in the room.

Starting point is 03:26:46 Later, she loses it again when asked why she hasn't indicated any of the Eustine clients and deflects by saying this. The doubt. The Dow right now is over, the Dow is over $50,000. I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader, as I hear Raskin. The Dow is over $50,000 right now. The S&P at almost $7,000. And the NASDAQs smashing records,

Starting point is 03:27:16 Americans 401Ks and retirement savings are booming. That's what we should be talking about. We should be talking about making America. Americans safe. We should be talking about what does a Dow have to do with anything? That's what they just asked. Are you kidding? Mr. Jordan. No, it's not. You are here for you are here. You are here. You are here for a hearing on the Epstein files. You are the Attorney General of the United States and you are a fucking piece of shit. Fucking nightmare. It's in response to a question about indicting Epstein clients. Yeah. If you just starts talking about the stock. market. Yeah. In only did she just start talking about it, she clearly came with her stats ready to talk about it, right? Because the message is it's fine that all this happened and the Trump was involved as long as the economy is good, right? People shouldn't be complaining. It's cartoon. It's cartoon behavior. Yeah, like, it's not a, it's not even some kind of sophisticated route. So I just

Starting point is 03:28:16 going to look over there. This would be like in like a British like sketch comedy about the government in like the 80s. Like this is like, if this is wild. It's truly horrific. And guess what? I still have more to share. Here is an exchange and another attempt for her to deflect.

Starting point is 03:28:34 She tries to bring up Merrick Garland again. This is with the congresswoman from Vermont. Didn't ask Merrick Garland anything about Epstein, not once when he was. And also, I want the record to reflect that, you know, with this anti-Semitic culture right now, She voted against a resolution condemning. Oh. Is Jewish? Oh.

Starting point is 03:28:56 Do you want to go there, Attorney General? Do you want to go there? Are you serious? I belong to the gentleman from South Carolina. To a woman who lost her grandfather in the hot cost. Really? Really? Pretty disgusting.

Starting point is 03:29:10 Yeah. That's crazy. She's like, ah, yes. How can I work in being pro-Israel? Also, again, right? She clearly had like, if this person speaks, this is what I will say. It's very clear.

Starting point is 03:29:22 She had a material list of like cheat sheet of this is how, when this person speaks, this is my dirt on this person. When this person speaks, this is my dirt on this person. There are even photos of the dirt she has piled up on each person. She had a sheet of like people's search histories, just unbelievable deflection to say the least. I have one more clip I want to display it. And then I'd like to talk about it a little bit more.

Starting point is 03:29:48 Yeah. I want to discuss another man, Donald Trump, who is all over the Epstein files. Like, former prince, here's the video. And for reference, this is the very, very popular video of Epstein and Trump, worth Epstein wearing that then, I'm shirt and Trump and the pink tie. They're kind of like elbow on each other and talking about ladies, laughing. Laughing at a party. Yeah, you've seen it.

Starting point is 03:30:11 Yeah. Former Prince Andrew, Donald Trump attended various parties with Jeffrey Epstein. I want to know whether any underage girls at that party or at any party that Trump attended with Jeffrey Epstein. This is so ridiculous and that they are trying to deflect from all the great things Donald Trump has done. There is no evidence that Donald Trump has committed a crime. Everyone knows that. This has been the most transparent presidency. He's the one that asked that those files.

Starting point is 03:30:51 I mean, claim my time. I got your answer. You said there's no evidence. Mr. Chairman, please stop the clock. I'd like to sign the legislation. This is, this is ridiculous. Time. I belong to the gentleman from California.

Starting point is 03:31:02 Okay. I'm going to put up another document from a witness who called the FBI's National Threat Operation Center because I believe you just lied under oath. There is ample evidence in the Epstein file. Don't you ever accuse me

Starting point is 03:31:17 of a crime? I believe you just lie under oath and this is on videotape. You said, you said, said, there's no evidence of crime. I'm showing you. Here is a witness statement who called into the FUI's threat operation center. He drove Donald Trump around in a limo. He overheard what Donald Trump said to Jeffrey on his cell phone. He was so angry he was going to stop a limo and hurt Donald Trump. And he met a girl who said she was raped by Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. She later had her head blown off and officers at the scene said that could not have been suicide.

Starting point is 03:31:49 No one, no one at the Department of Justice interviewed this witness. You need to interview this witness immediately. Epstein should rot in hell, so should the men who patronizes operation. And as we say here today, there are over 1,000 sex trafficking victims, and you have not held a single man accountable. Shame on you. If you had any decency, you would resign right after this hearing. The gentleman has expired.

Starting point is 03:32:22 She did not answer a single question, honestly. She did not give a yes or no answer. The Republicans spent the time trying to deflect by, she had like this sheet of like, well, in your state, this person committed a crime. In your district, this person committed a crime and tried to deflect in every which way. Congress people aren't law enforcement. No. And the Republicans spent the time praising her and praising Trump and touting their own agenda.

Starting point is 03:32:55 And this is not justice. This is sickening. I. What precedent this sends to people who are survivors of horrific sex crimes. I mean, the president they want to send is don't say shit, right? That's what I'm saying. That's what it sends. And we can't allow this to go on.

Starting point is 03:33:24 We have to keep talking about it. Sorry, I'm just very upset. Pam Bondi, she is one of the most despicable people in the world. Oh, yeah. To get up there with survivors in the room and to not look at them, to not answer a single question, and to continuously deflect and lie. It's impossibly disgusting and very, very, very sad. Very, very sad.

Starting point is 03:33:56 Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Well, I don't know what else to say about it. It's impossibly disgusting and very, very sad. Yeah. I hope that these survivors get some kind of justice someday. We are not going to forget about them.

Starting point is 03:34:14 We are not going to stop talking about it. something has to give here. This is this, this is not justice. This is despicable. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what's going to happen or if anything is going to give in the near future, but people are pissed and hopefully we'll continue to be,

Starting point is 03:34:30 which is, I guess, all we can hope for is that before much longer the time comes around where we can make sure that these people, including the folks protecting them now, pay. So, you know, we got any other news? Or has this? Nope. It's a real bummer of an ending. Yeah. Well, that's appropriate right now.

Starting point is 03:34:50 Yeah, we reported the news gear. Yeah. I love the news. We reported the news. Yep. James, anything you want to plug at the end here? Yeah, if you want to email us with news tips, you can email cool zone tips at proton. If you want to email us with episode ideas, I will make another email.

Starting point is 03:35:15 for that. But it makes it significantly harder for all of us going through the news tips email if you just email us with things that you think we should talk about. So we will try and partition those two things off so that we can deal with both of them separately. Okay. Bye. We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, Coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources where it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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Starting point is 03:37:25 Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to two guys, five rings on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What is something you've had to unlearn about love? That it's earned. That I was unworthy of love. that it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship,

Starting point is 03:37:55 casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boy Sober podcast, and each week we're looking at love from every angle. Listen to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R.

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Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 219

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