Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 223

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Good people. What's up? What's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with an actress and producer, Jamie Lee Curtis, from routines to recovery, true lies, and a certain Jermaine Jackson music video. Jamie's surreal and raw. And it's something I really admire about her. I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at 67, that I'm in.

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Starting point is 00:01:10 Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night's would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral.

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Starting point is 00:02:33 is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a show about things falling apart. The thing falling apart this week is me after watching nine hours of Clinton testimony the past two days. I can relate.

Starting point is 00:03:02 I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Sophie Licketts. to discuss. Hi, guys. Hey, Sophie. Hey, to discuss the Clinton testimony, I was going to say, can relate after, you know, you fortunately missed that Clinton speech at the DNC in 2024, Bill Clinton. That was a really, really, really, really long hour of my life. That's a long speech for a guy of that age, too. Yeah, but we were together during Hillary's speech. We did catch that. Well, we're in the pit. I think that's when I got COVID.

Starting point is 00:03:38 I got the Clinton COVID. Hillary got COVID too at the DNC, so I think she gave it to me. There you go. That's when we were up close and personal with the Clintons last. Now they're back. They've never been more back. They've never been more. I completely agree.

Starting point is 00:03:53 If you don't want to hear the voices, I've tried to limit it, but there's going to be some. The voices of Hillary and or Bill Clinton. This is your chance. If you want to hear me talk about Hillary being. asked about everything from spies to aliens and Q&on. He's the gate. This is your sign to continue. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:13 So I'm excited. Let's do this. Yeah, let's get started because there is probably more more to cover than what we'll be able to. So on February 26th and 27th, Hillary and Bill Clinton respectively testified in closed door hearings about their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and Galane Maxwell. The Clinton's refer to subpoenaed to testify in this bipartisan House Oversight Committee investigation into the DOJ's handling. of the Epstein investigation back in August of 2025. For months, they pushed back against having to testify,

Starting point is 00:04:42 arguing the process was politically motivated, that the subpoenas were, quote-unquote, invalid and legally unenforceable, and that any relevant information they had could be delivered via a signed statement. In January of 2006, Chairman James Comer advanced two resolutions recommending the Clintons be held in contempt of Congress

Starting point is 00:05:01 for refusing to comply days before a vote to hold them in contempt, the Clintons finally agree to testify in February. Yeah. To be fair, they did let other people give little shitty statements. They sir did. That is something that Hillary specifically brought up during her deposition. More than once. Yes. So let's start with Hillary's because that was the first one. Yeah. In her opening statement, she said she had no knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein's criminal activities,

Starting point is 00:05:30 did not ever recall encountering Jeffrey Epstein whatsoever, never flown on the plane or visited his island, homes, or offices. Gleine Maxwell dated a family friend around 2010 named Ted Waite, who was a software developer. Wait brought Galane to Hillary's daughter, Chelsea's wedding, as a plus one guest in 2010. And Hillary says she was unaware of any criminal activity relating to Galane Maxwell, specifically before her crimes were publicly revealed a few years ago. Hillary was asked to recount the origin of the Clinton Foundation, which Hillary only joined the board of in 2013 because she was busy serving in office.

Starting point is 00:06:12 Hillary was asked about Glein Maxwell leading a breakout session on ocean conservation at a Clinton Global Initiative Conference in 2013. Hillary said that she was not involved in the selection process for those sessions, but that Gleine Maxwell had been an internationally recognized ocean advocate around that time. Hillary refused to answer a question about whether her husband is a quote-unquote smart guy, which was... Who asked that question? I forget, but I have that note written down. Some of these things I was watching pretty late. Yeah, yeah, what a great question. Hey, Hill, babe. Is your husband a smart guy? Wow. I'm glad our tax dollars are funding such an important question. She said that her husband had a limited relationship with Epstein for a limited time.

Starting point is 00:07:01 Yes. Used his airplane for Clinton Foundation trips. And this connection began and ended before any of Epstein's crimes were publicly revealed. Representative Pat Fallon with the Republican majority talked about how Jeffrey Epstein visited the White House 17 times under the Clinton administration. This is mostly for White House Historical Association events and donated money to the White House. Historical Association, but said that Epstein never visited under Trump or donated money to Trump. This could, in fact, just be simply because the Trump admin, you know, Trump came into office after Trump's relationship with Epstein fell through and Epstein was convicted of sex crimes.

Starting point is 00:07:45 Correct. Trump got into office in 2016. Clinton was in the early 90s. Yeah. That's why Epstein was able to visit the White House for these public events as a regular citizen, but did not do so when Trump was president. Yeah, prior to Epstein's like first conviction. Yeah, in 2008.

Starting point is 00:08:04 Yeah. Pat Fallon also tried to characterize a $20,000 donation to a joint campaign fund in the 90s as a donation to Hillary's presidential campaign fund. Many years later, he was called on this being obviously incorrect. Come on, man. That's so dumb. There was a lot of stuff like this. A lot of small errors.

Starting point is 00:08:25 Some of them may not have been errors, right? Some of them may have been ways to make the transcript read a certain way if Hillary or the lawyers weren't able to catch something. But both Hillary and her team, but really mostly Hillary was really on it for this entire hearing, like very sharp. This was peak Hillary. I feel like a lot of people, you know,

Starting point is 00:08:43 for a lot of the like analysis online, I saw, you know, a take over and over again that was like, why wasn't she like this when she ran for president? She was. This is Hillary. She was. And it's, you know, it's impressive, but also a little bit unlikable. If you do that, if you do that like all the time, right?

Starting point is 00:09:00 If you're, if you're like that all the time, it's a little bit, oh, okay. I'm going to take a step back now. That's a lot. But, you know. Yeah. We'll have more on her sort of like intellectual sharpness later. I mean, she's fiercely intelligent. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:19 Fiercely intelligent. And that is, that is on display for the entire. on this deposition. But I really hated the take where people were like, if she was like this when she ran for president, maybe we wouldn't be dealing with Donald Trump now. It's like, no, that's not what happened. No. This is who Hillary's been her entire adult life. Thank you. Hillary said that she never solicited funds for Jeffrey Epstein, never had funds solicited on her behalf and never invited Epstein to any political fundraisers. When asked about her own speculation on her husband, previous investigators, or the mind state of Jeffrey Epstein, and Gleine Maxwell,

Starting point is 00:09:56 she could not answer because that is speculation on other people's opinions or minds states. About an hour in, Nancy Mace asked Hillary Clinton if she believes the Epstein files are, quote unquote, a vast right-wing conspiracy. I think if they are fully released as the Transparency Act requires, that would be fulfilling the responsibility of the Justice Department, but it appears that there have been many issues with the full release. So I'm not going to characterize it other than to say. I think that's a well-known fact.

Starting point is 00:10:40 It is certainly an odd question to ask if the files themselves are a vast right-wing conspiracy. And Hillary here just answered by talking about the issues that have come up with the full release of the Epstein files. Yeah. After this, Hillary has asked about whether Jeffrey Epstein was one of the most prolific sex traffickers in the world and how the State Department worked to counter international sex trafficking. Would you say he's one of the world's most prolific sex traffickers? I don't know what to compare it to.

Starting point is 00:11:10 They're terrible sex trafficking rings all over the world. And you said you were Secretary of State from 2009 to 2013. Mm-hmm. And you state, your age is. he prioritized combating sex trafficking internationally, correct? That's correct. During your time to Secretary of State, did you or the state receive any intelligence, cables, or briefings mentioning Epstein's foreign travel, pedophile island,

Starting point is 00:11:32 or his network of pedophiles and sex trafficking? Not that I am aware of, no. How did you miss it? If he's, I believe, one of the most prolific sex traffickers in the world, you were Secretary of State, how did you miss it? Well, that would have been a matter of the Justice Department, not the State Department. But in your opening statement, and your statements earlier, in your opening statement, you stated that Secretary Rubio should be called to testify. You said that he has, and the administration has, quote, abandoned survivors using the same logic.

Starting point is 00:12:01 You were Secretary of State during a time period after Jeffrey Epstein was convicted of being a pedophile and soliciting children for sex. Why then did you, quote, using your own logic, abandoned survivors? What is the question, please? I followed her comment. First of all, we focused on whether there were laws that made sex trafficking, sexual slavery, domestic violence, other abuses of women on the books in countries. And then we tried to evaluate were those laws being implemented and were judges appropriately trained and briefed about how to implement those laws? Were governments taking them seriously? we looked at the broad institutional approach to these very serious abuses.

Starting point is 00:12:54 This is an interesting exchange to me. Yeah. So Mace here doesn't really understand the role of the Justice Department versus the State Department. Yes. How the Justice Department investigates crimes committed in the United States versus the State Department is this entity that pressures other countries to create. or, you know, improve sex trafficking laws. And doesn't really understand this difference. Right.

Starting point is 00:13:21 It refers to a part in Hillary's opening statement about how Rubio shrunk a specific office to combat international sex trafficking. And she isn't quite able to like to understand how Hillary is critiquing that while also saying that the Justice Department mishandled the EPSD investigation while she was secretary of state. It's this interesting just break and not really understanding how the government works. And this clip also shows like how sharp Hillary is, being able to follow this line of questioning

Starting point is 00:13:49 better than her own lawyers in some instances. Yes. Be able to actually like respond to what Mace is really asking. Notice that as well. Mace then continues to ask about how the U.S. government handled Jeffrey Epstein's first criminal case. And this is how Clinton responded. Would you say the U.S. government at that time during this time period

Starting point is 00:14:09 was appropriate with the way that it handled Epstein? I don't think that you could say that. was true about any of the government's prosecutorial efforts, starting with the Southern District of Florida and Alex Acosta and all those who basically gave him a sweetheart deal. And then I think going up the chain, there was very little attention paid that should have been paid. But what we had laws on the books, they were not being implemented. But that was not within my purview because what we were looking at is what's the institutional

Starting point is 00:14:44 structure and do can we do more to make sure countries take it seriously our country had laws on the books so this this man was not held to account you it was not in your purview when you were secretary of state then why is it today in secretary rubio's because what's happened is that the office that was actually following what was going on around the world has been decimated 70 percent of the staff is gone it's impossible to carry out the functions of that office if you don't have have a critical number of people. So my question would be to Secretary Rubio, is there more that can be done? I'm running out of time here. Wow. Yeah. Nancy Mace. You suck. You suck. Pretty clear articulation there from Secretary Clinton. Yeah. I fear that like that Nancy Mace

Starting point is 00:15:36 spent most of this time trying to set Hillary up and I don't think she, I don't think she succeeded. No. Hillary was then asked if she was quote unquote concerned when she saw photos of her husband getting a back massage or in a hot tub and what went through her mind. Hillary refused to speculate on events in which she has no context for and was not there. We're going to go on a quick ad break now and then return to continue the discussion on the Clinton testimony. All right, we're back. I want to get a little bit into the background of this hearing. some more. So when the Clintons finally agreed to testify in February, one of the things they pushed for was that the testimony take the form of public hearings broadcast live. Hillary addressed Chairman Comer online saying, quote, you love to talk about transparency. There's nothing more transparent than a public hearing cameras on, unquote. There was a brief back and forth negotiation on whether

Starting point is 00:16:47 the depositions would be open to the public. Ultimately, they were not, but they were recorded on camera and transcribed for later release. Part of the terms for this private hearing, this deposition, were that press and photographers were not allowed inside the room, and that deposition materials would only be released in full through official channels after sensitive information like staffer names present at the deposition and off-the-record exchanges between lawyers were properly removed or redacted. At about an hour and 20 minutes into Hillary's deposition, The Clinton staff learned that one of the Republican committee members leaked a photo of Hillary

Starting point is 00:17:28 to right-wing influencer Benny Johnson. Crazy. Who posted the picture and wrote, quote, breaking the first image of Hillary Clinton testifying under oath about Jeffrey Epstein to the Republican Oversight Committee. This is the first time Hillary has had to answer real questions about Epstein. Clinton does not look happy. Photo provided by Representative Lauren Bobbert, unquote. Honestly, there's actually nobody more unprofessional than Lauren Bobbert.

Starting point is 00:17:58 We'll get into her unprofessional conduct later in this hearing as well. Great. But here's a clip of the Clinton team realizing that a photo has been leaked. You have photos that are being released of the secretary as she is testifying from inside this room? Can you please advise me as to whether or not that's permissible and consistent with the rules, particularly given that we have asked for a public hearing if there are photos that are being, released of the secretary as she is testifying. Can you please explain how that can occur? I'm done with this. If you guys are doing that, I am done. You can hold me in contempt from now

Starting point is 00:18:30 until the cows come home. This is just typical behavior. We will go off the record. Oh, for heaven. So I would like to understand how that's permissible. It doesn't matter. We all are abiding by the same rules. I will take that down. Yeah, well. I would like to take a break at this moment. I'd like to have a conversation for now. Fair. Go off the record. Pretty shocking stuff. There's no defense for that.

Starting point is 00:18:56 That's wild. And I would walk out as well. When they went back on the record, Chairman Comer discussed how he advised all members that no photos of the deposition were to be released and that an incident like this would not happen again. Lauren Bobber later told reporters that she took the picture before a testimony

Starting point is 00:19:15 actually began and that she checked with committee staff about using the photo. No follow up on that. Yeah, that chance. It's embarrassing. After returning from off the record, the minority, the Democrats, asked about the Justice Department illegally withholding certain files related to the investigation from public disclosure.

Starting point is 00:19:40 Hillary says that this behavior by the Justice Department deserves the most thorough investigation that Congress could carry out. This will be a longer clip about two minutes, but there's some good information inside. I think from the very beginning, the behavior of the Attorney General and her staff has demonstrated either a gross incompetence, which is bothersome because they are the keepers of information that should be evaluated for law enforcement purposes, or a clear cover-up because they are protecting the president and others. Either one of those should be the focus of this committee to try to get to the bottom.

Starting point is 00:20:31 If they are incompetent and they are incapable of complying with the law that the Congress passed, we need to know that because they are falling down on the job. They have an FBI director who's more interested in drinking beer and a hockey. dressing room after our team won the Olympics, rather than being responsive and complying with the law as it has been promulgated. So I don't think it's unfair to say that given the sequencing of the events, starting with the way that President Trump made the release of the files a key element of his 2024 campaign, the promise that he and then his Attorney General made that the files would be released, then a walking back of that as they began to look at the files, an ignoring of what

Starting point is 00:21:35 they had promised, including that they had a client list on the desk of the Attorney General, reasonable people would have to assume they are engaged in a massive cover-up, which is infuriating. As an American, as a citizen, all of us should be, regardless of party, wondering, what are they hiding? The thing says I watch sports more than calling it a hockey dressing room. Dressing room. I was like, Hillary, up with the times.

Starting point is 00:22:10 Uh. Hillary goes on to mention how the prosecutor of the original Epstein case, Alex Acosta, was not asked any questions by Republicans during his Epstein deposition. About half an hour later, Hillary and the majority go into about a three-minute exchange. I think this is between Hillary and Nancy Mays. About Howard Lutnik, Trump's Commerce Secretary, who's frequently named in the files, whom Hillary knew from being a New York senator during the nine-line. 11 attacks, where Letnik lost the highest number of employees out of anyone that day, like over 600.

Starting point is 00:22:47 So Hillary was asked how she knows Lettnick. Hillary tries to respond by saying how they met, which was the aftermath of 9-11. Mace claims that this is like a distraction from answering the question and that Hillary's trying to garner sympathy. Things get very heated over the course these like three minutes as they like argue about, you know, if she's actually answering the question. Mace talks about being a survivor herself, and now she's trying to, you know, get the truth out of these hearings.

Starting point is 00:23:14 Hillary responds by talking about how she's been very sympathetic to Mace's situation and respects the work that she's doing in the Epstein hearings, but is trying to answer the question specifically about Lutnik. It's a pretty loud and contentious three minutes. About two minutes after that, Republicans made Hillary read emails from the Epstein files. Thank you for a fun night. Your littlest girl was a little naughty. How does that make you feel? It makes me sick.

Starting point is 00:23:45 If you can also read the EFTA 0-07848421. This is also another email. Can you just please provide the context? It's an email to Jeffrey Epstein. If you could just read the context of what it is. of course the oh h jesus ohio jesus i'm coming trick and the bot just the main body of the context of the email said that she felt god's presence next to her when she was in bed she knows that jesus watches over her and he helped save her

Starting point is 00:24:21 life whoops how does that make you feel it's bizarre i don't know what it means the reason i asked you to read both of these is because these emails were both sent by um co-conspirators that were then given the plea deals and now have been given victim status. Both of these women were also named an FBI document, and they're on a number of other emails. What does that have to do with Hillary? Yes, that's the exact thing that I wrote down. This has no relevance to Clinton at all. This doesn't relate to her.

Starting point is 00:24:57 They wanted soundbites of her reading weird things. It's a humiliation ritual, right? Yeah, there's no reason for them to do this. The majority just go on to ask Hillary if the DOJ should reevaluate the plea deals of these two people. Something that Hillary has no expertise for. Like, that's what she's here to testify

Starting point is 00:25:15 on her own knowledge relating to Epstein and Maxwell. This is a complete non-sequitur. This doesn't relate to her in any way. It's just gross. You're just getting a woman to read the Epstein files for your own entertainment. Yes. It's disgusting.

Starting point is 00:25:30 Yes. I have a few clips here. This is what, three clips about her intellectual kind of ruthlessness and the ways that the questioners in this committee were trying to get certain answers out of her and she was able to either correct them or navigate in an interesting way. I'll start with this first one at three and a half hours in. Gosh, you've watched a lot. In 2014, Epstein met with William Burns, who was then a senior state department official and later a CIA director. Excuse me. Could you say what year that was again? In 2014. In 2014, he met with William Burns.

Starting point is 00:26:14 Epstein met with William Burns. As the Secretary of State at that time, were you aware of that meeting? I wasn't Secretary of State in 2014. Okay. Were you aware of the meeting with Mr. Burns? Okay. Embarrassing stuff. Yeah. She was not Secretary of State in 2014. She served from 2009 to 2013. They're asking a question about if she was informed of something,

Starting point is 00:26:38 well, Secretary of State in 2014. She simply was not there. She was not Secretary of State. The people in this committee should know this. They should know when she actually served a Secretary of State. It's embarrassing. They continued to get, like, dates wrong throughout this hearing. This guy who's asking this question,

Starting point is 00:26:55 this is Representative Eric Berlinson. He also mischaracterized Chelsea. wedding as Hillary's wedding, saying that Gleine Maxwell attended Hillary's wedding and that Gleine Maxwell vacationed with Chelsea after the wedding. This event that he's referencing this vacation was actually a year before the wedding in 2009.

Starting point is 00:27:13 Hillary and her lawyers had to correct all of that stuff. Specifically, Erica Berlinson did not seem to know what he was talking about at all in this hearing. Just constantly got little dates and facts wrong. That gives me pause for a number of reasons, but

Starting point is 00:27:27 it just makes me think about you know, if they were actually talking to somebody that they needed to deeply press, that they would not get the results needed. It gives me, major pause that they have lack of confidence in this committee to do their jobs. But it's, it's just frankly embarrassing that these are elected officials and they can't even get their dates right. Yeah, this is an extremely serious matter. And these are the people doing oversight. This is not a laughing matter. Yeah. They are totally incompetent. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:01 Lauren Barber then asked a very leading question about when Hillary learned her husband was spending time with a registered sex offender. Ms. Clinton, when did you first learn that your husband was spending time extensively with a registered sex offender? He did not after he was convicted years after Bill stopped having any. Were there any activities that raised any red flags to think that he could be charged? of sex crimes during the time. Are you asking you, she has awareness? Yes. Of Jeffrey Epstein?

Starting point is 00:28:34 Of any red flags being brought to your awareness, to your family's awareness, while your husband was spending time with Jeffrey Epstein. I have no recollection of anyone bringing any red flags to me. They continued to ask about her husband, and she just had to keep reiterating it. Like, the committee will have a chance to question her husband tomorrow. Like, they could ask him about his relationship with his,

Starting point is 00:28:57 Epstein tomorrow. There's no use in her speculating about her husband's relationship. They can just ask him literally in less than 24 hours, but they just kept, they just kept going. Classic. You know, one of the more bizarre moments, they quoted Epstein referring to Hillary being prettier in person. And this exchange is interesting because of the way it suggests the committee's interpretation of certain statements made by Epstein when I think they probably infer something to the opposite. It's bizarre, just like weird misogyny going on. So regarding the Epstein files, there are many files where Jeffrey Epstein seems to speak as though he does know you personally.

Starting point is 00:29:44 in one file, EFTA 060657-115. Mr. Epstein is commenting, and he quotes, hey, Hillary Clinton is much prettier in person. This was Tuesday, September 20th, 2011. And then another... Congressman. I'm not going to object to that. Congresswoman, can we see the documents because we don't think the documents says it? We don't think the document says it.

Starting point is 00:30:21 Not that you're not pretty. I'll say that. Jeffrey Epstein has also commented that meetings with Hillary are not easily discreet. Has he ever connected someone to meet with you? Not that I'm aware of. Okay. That was my first time seeing that clip. That's so funny.

Starting point is 00:30:48 First of all, very funny. Second of all, this is not what this is supposed to be. Why are you bringing that up? What does that have to do with anything? Yeah, I mean, they're trying to establish some sort of relationship between Hillary and Epstein. Clearly, but it doesn't exist. And to me, these exchanges just infer that, you know, Jeffrey Epstein had seen Hillary in person before, likely at these White House Historical Association events where she sees, you know,

Starting point is 00:31:12 hundreds of people who like walk by. Right. But then Epstein himself expressed that it's actually difficult to get a private meeting with her. So this doesn't prove that they had any actual like personal knowledge of each other like mutually. Obviously Epstein knew who she was. She was the first lady of the United States. Absolutely. This is ridiculous.

Starting point is 00:31:32 About 10 minutes later and this is getting to the end of this hearing about like four hours in, Hillary just kind of goes off a little bit after just being asked the same. question again and again and again and again. And then also demonstrates, like, how much she actually knows about this committee's investigation. You have said that you've never been to Mr. Epstein's island. Is that correct? You know what? I am so tired of answering that question. If you have one scintilla of evidence to the contrary, put it forward. I have never been on his island, period. I've never been in his homes, his

Starting point is 00:32:10 offices, his anything. I don't know how many times you have to say the same thing over and over and over again. And I just am struggling with the relevance of all of this. But no, I never have been. And based off that response,

Starting point is 00:32:27 that would include you've never been to Mr. Epstein's Manhattan town home. I have not. His New Mexico ranch? No, I have not. His Palm Beach residents. No, I have not. his Paris apartment. Didn't know he had one. I haven't been there.

Starting point is 00:32:42 You know, I also find it very interesting because I went back and looked at the transcripts of all of your other depositions, and none of the Republicans asked a single question to any witness about Jeffrey Epstein or any question that would help provide answers for his victims.

Starting point is 00:33:06 Hillary goes on to say that, Republican Chairman Comer did ask Attorney General Barr, not about Epstein, but if he was aware of Clinton involvement in the 2016 Russia collusion investigation. Again, in a deposition about the DOJ's handling of the Epstein files, completely relevant, completely relevant to the matter at hand. And if these people want to pretend that they actually take, you know, what happened to these victims seriously, then they would have a focused, focused effort on the actual subject, not all these wild partisan threads. And I'm now going to discuss before we go and break again about how this hearing,

Starting point is 00:33:51 it kind of throughout it, but I've condensed this down into one section, turned towards the weird multiple times in ways that are sometimes, you know, relevant, but oftentimes not. Earlier in this hearing, Hillary stated that she had never been briefed on whether Jeffrey Epstein had foreign intelligence ties while serving in office. But that speculation that Jeffrey Epstein could have been a foreign intel asset is a quote unquote fruitful area of investigation, although she was not made aware of any connection of this sort while Secretary of State. She was also asked about a passport belonging to Epstein, which bore a different name. This is actually a passport that was given. The individual's name is Marcus Robert Fortnelly.

Starting point is 00:34:33 Do you think that this is a sign or a telltale sign of intelligence operations and pseudonyms? I can't speculate. I don't know. Okay. Victims have stated to this committee, both Democrats and Republicans, that during Epstein's time, during his daycare, is what I'll call it, that he was also an active communication with Bush's CIA director. They also had stated that he had active ties to Russia, Israel, and Iran. Given your status, not just as the First Lady, but also in your secretary position, have you ever been targeted by any of these countries as a means of a foreign intelligence gathering operation?

Starting point is 00:35:16 Are you aware of potential vulnerabilities? Yeah, I was targeted by Russia in the 2016 campaign. I mean, I think that's pretty well known. What about Israel or Iran? I don't know about either Israel or Iran. Okay. Do you believe that Epstein was running potentially a honeypot operation with intelligence? and gathering operations to collect information on high-profile individuals,

Starting point is 00:35:37 both Democrat and Republican in the United States, in an effort to sway our foreign policies? Is it possible? I have no direct knowledge, but I think it's one of the areas your committee should investigate. Do you think it's possible? Well, it's certainly possible. It's a tried and true technique of certain intelligence agencies.

Starting point is 00:35:56 Do you believe that he was using honey pots in an effort to? I can't speculate. I don't know. this is such a weird use of their time. Later she said that she had no reason to believe that personally she was the subject of an intel gathering operation relating to Jeffrey Epstein or Gleine Maxwell. And then, right after, she was asked if she was ever denied access to information about UAPs. That's unidentified aerial phenomenon. Hillary said that she was never denied access because she never asked for access.

Starting point is 00:36:29 And when questioned, she said that she believes the American public deserves access to such topics, subject to national security implications. This bizarre, off-topic line of questioning continued nearly an hour later into the hearing. So I'm going to begin with some lighthearted different questions. And you're welcome to ignore them, or if you want to. But while I have you here, I just have to ask. So when your husband was president, it was Lawrence Rockefeller had an effort to try to discuss. UFs, UAPs. When you were running for president, John Podesta, publicly stated that you would disclose these files if given the chance if you had been president. Are you pleased to see that

Starting point is 00:37:13 these files may be disclosed finally? I am pleased. As I say, I think they have to be carefully scrutinized so that no national security information is disclosed. But this is an issue of real importance to so many people. And I think whatever can be disclosed should be disclosed. Was there a program that specifically that that was referencing that you were aware of? I was not. As you mentioned, John Podesta, who was one of my advisors, was deeply interested in the issue. And if I had been elected, I certainly would have listened to his advice. Well, thank you. We're indulgence on that. very odd, completely off topic, no relevance to the actual subject of inquiry. A few minutes

Starting point is 00:38:05 later, Hillary asked a clarifying question about why UFOs were brought up. It's a sort of like off subject, but didn't you all require in the latest defense authorization that the UFO information has to be? What? They ripped it out. They killed it. Oh, I thought that had gone through. That was my amendment and it got ripped out. Oh, okay. Well, you've just, I didn't know that. So thank you for enlightening me. Okay. Yeah, they've been killing them. So if alien disclosure questions weren't bad enough and, you know, disrespectful to victims of Epstein and sex trafficking,

Starting point is 00:38:40 it did get worse. Yeah, it did. And we will get into the worse after this ad break. All right, we're back. At nearly the four-hour mark into Hillary Clinton's deposition, Lauren Bobbert started asking about conspiracy. theories. In past public statements, as in 2017 speeches and interviews, you described Pizza Gate as a baseless conspiracy theory, alleging you and others ran a child sex trafficking ring

Starting point is 00:39:24 from a Washington pizzeria basement. Have you reviewed any 2025-2020-2016 files that were released that you believe reference or relate to those specific 2016 claims? regarding the Podesta emails comet ping pong pizza used as code possibly I'm sorry to do you're asking her about whether she's reviewed emails in the Epstein files was related to the wacky Pizza Gate scandal you could characterize it however you want I just would like to know if she's familiar with any of them so excuse me your question is about whether or not she has reviewed any emails in the Epstein release files about Pizza Gate correct Pizza Gate

Starting point is 00:40:11 was totally made up. It was an outrageous allegation that ended up hurting a number of people that caused a deranged young man to show up with his assault rifle and shoot up a local pizzeria. I can't believe you're even referencing it. You should be... There are connections to the language. Well, the QAnon people believe there are. I don't know what KUNA people believe. Have at it. completely unhinged. But why are we doing this? I have complete lack of faith in this committee.

Starting point is 00:40:45 This is offensive to survivors of Epstein. And this is getting us no relevant information to the Epstein probe, as they call it. This is ridiculous. This is infamatory. I mean, I expect nothing less from Lowe and and Bobbert, but, you know, it's just, it's insane and embarrassing. It's insane. And like, there has been a resurgence of, you know, PizzaGate related conspiracy theories. People talking about PizzaGate.

Starting point is 00:41:09 I know. since the files have been released, since people can create their own patterns, right, by selectively honing in on words or symbols, which allow them to overlook what's right in front of their nose, right? All of the very clear connections laid out in the Epstein files. Those can be ignored. Yes. And instead, you focus on these like coded messages hidden everywhere, hidden in the backgrounds of videos, people carrying pizza boxes into the Clinton deposition, all this kind of stuff. And it's, it allows them to miss. the very clear things that are actually outlined in the files. It is, you know, one of the negative side effects of, you know, of files like this being released is that it allows a lot of, you know, points of interest to be honed in on by people charting wildly conspiratorial matrices. I just don't even know how somebody like Lauren Bobberts on a committee like this or an elected official or, you know, employed, frankly.

Starting point is 00:42:04 Hillary went on to say, I expected a lot of interesting questions today, but pizza The Pizza Gate was not on the list. Lauren Bobbert replied, that's okay. We're asking all sorts of things here. Okay. A few minutes later, Bobbert returned with even more Pizza Gate questions and things escalated to the point where they had to go off the record. That's Lord.

Starting point is 00:42:27 Are you aware of any files that were on Anthony Wiener's laptop in a folder that was titled Life Insurance with a. zip file titled Fravel. This is way outside the scope. Is this within the scope? Is this within the scope? Mr. Chairman rules that it's not with the scope. Mr. Chairman, based on what you said in the public hearing, is this within the scope? Mr. Chairman, is this within the scope? So you couldn't quite make out what Bobbert was referencing there. She was talking about the frazzle drip conspiracy theory that alleged Anthony Wiener possessed a video,

Starting point is 00:43:09 of Hillary Clinton conducting a satanic ritual murder of a child, cutting off this child's face to wear as a mask, to fill the child's blood with adrenachrome to be harvested. This is like a 20, a 2018 conspiracy theory, one of one of the more like graphic and gross aspects of Q&ON. And here Barbara is just openly asking Hillary Clinton about Frazzledrip by name. Completely inappropriate.

Starting point is 00:43:38 has no bearing on the investigation. It's an insults to actual victims of child sex trafficking. So this whole conspiratorial angle of the Hillary Clinton deposition made up a significant chunk. Another chunk that made up a significant portion of time is just Clinton kind of advising and the committee members, both on the Republican and Democrat side, like asking for her advice on how to conduct their own investigation. She advised that they should follow Senator Wyden's compiled treasury data on Epstein's financial

Starting point is 00:44:12 transactions and that that data should be subpoenaed from the Treasury Department. She was asked about how they could determine if Jeffrey Epstein was a spy. Hillary advised them to send document requests to subpoena the CIA, the Department of National Intelligence, Counterintelligence departments in the DOJ, saying to quote unquote cast a wide net. She suggested cooperating with UK investigations into former Prince Andrew and trying to see if Israel will cooperate in sharing information regarding the investigation. Finally, Hillary suggested to Chairman James Comer that he should advise on how laws could be changed to prevent future abuse based on the committee's knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein's manipulation techniques and mode of

Starting point is 00:44:57 operation. But there was a significant chunk of at least like, you know, 30 minutes where she was essentially being asked or advising the committee on how to do their own job, just due to the sheer incompetence that has been displayed in the clips that I've selected here. Well, I don't really have anything else to say besides that. It's just like pathetic. Yeah, I mean, most of the interesting stuff is in the Hillary, Hillary Clinton one. Yeah. The bill was deposed the next day. But for some of the like logistics regarding this hearing, a source told the New York Post, so take that as you will, that the Clinton team,

Starting point is 00:45:32 made in specific quote-unquote beauty lighting and camera positions. Relatable, I fear. To get the most flattering angle of Hillary's face and brought white tablecloths to bounce the overhead lighting onto the bottom of her face to minimize shadows. Yeah. Pictures of the whole room also showed that the Clinton team was the only ones with these nice orange upholstered chairs. The rest of the chairs were just like regular black folding chairs.

Starting point is 00:45:57 The New York Post contains this little tidbit that the customized blue paneled backdrop was developed by a local specialized vendor within about seven hours after Clinton's team concluded it did not like the vibe of the original black curtains in the background, unquote. So they like went in, saw this, you know, white table with, with black curtains. They thought it looked too much like a criminal interrogation or, or like a quote unquote hostage situation is what's quoted in the post article, as opposed to like an official congressional position, you know, like an official government venue. So they got like a local carpenter to make this blue paneled backdrop in like a few hours to put behind Hillary. And that's just an interesting

Starting point is 00:46:45 insight into like the thought process of the Clinton team regarding the optics of this hearing. Shop local. So let's let's briefly go through some of the sections on, on Bill. Bill started by saying that they should not have questioned Hillary. Quote, but I do think you should be talking to me. You should have called me. I did take those plane trips with him. You have a right to ask those questions, unquote. He said that, quote, I'll be honest with you. I'll be 88 years old if I lived my next birthday. I don't remember everything that happened 24 years ago, but I do remember some things, and I'll tell you what I remember the best that I can, unquote. When asked when he first met Jeffrey Epstein, Bill referred to a photo of him shaking Epstein's hand in 1993 at a White

Starting point is 00:47:27 House Historical Association event, but Bill said that he doesn't remember that, but this photo does exist. He shook a lot of people's hands, does not remember everyone he meets. He first remembers meeting Jeffrey Epstein for a Clinton Foundation plane trip in 2002. He said he was connected with Epstein through someone named Larry Summers, who told Bill that Jeffrey Epstein made a large donation about $10 million to brain research and was a quote-unquote information-hungry person. Summers said that Epstein wanted to talk with Bill about economics and politics and offered to take Bill, his staff, and his secret service detail on Clinton Foundation trips for global humanitarian aid.

Starting point is 00:48:07 So Bill saw this as a way to drive the price down for these trips. He took the last one of these flights in 2003. When asked why this relationship ended, Bill said that the AIDS program, it was a humanitarian aid program to help with AIDS, but that this AIDS program took off and more people that Bill knew better, offered to help, and Jeffrey did not seem as interested in the AIDS program, so they kind of just naturally drifted apart. Bill characterized the relationship as friendly,

Starting point is 00:48:35 but didn't know him well enough to be considered a friend, and said that he never talked about witness or participated in anything sexual relating to Jeffrey Epstein and young women and girls. Bill said he learned of Epstein's crimes in 2008. Bill said he had no indication Epstein was trafficking women. Quote, there's nothing that I saw when I was around him that made me realize he was trafficking women, unquote.

Starting point is 00:48:56 Bill was asked about if he communicated with a long list of people regarding Epstein. This was kind of a weirdly framed question. It was, have you communicated with any of these people about Jeffrey Epstein? Bill had a hard time kind of understanding the nature of this question. It is kind of oddly phrased.

Starting point is 00:49:14 Hillary was asked the same one. Yeah. They just read a list of names. Bill recounted if he knew the person or not and lawyers had to specify, like, oh, no, they're asking, if you, you communicated with them about Epstein, not if you knew them. So it kind of got some confusing responses. Okay. Interestingly, both Hillary and Bill laughed at the mention of Noam Chomsky.

Starting point is 00:49:37 He'll said that he never communicated with Chomsky and that Chomsky, quote, wasn't a big fan of mine. He thought I was too conservative. Fuck off, Noam. Fuck off, Noam. It's crazy. Bill did testify that he thought that someone, like relating to law and would ask him about Epstein in 2008 when the news about Epstein's crimes came out, considering that Epstein let Bill use the plane, but no one ever did. He said he never suspected until agency connections with Epstein and was at the time unaware of Epstein's visits to the White House while Bill was president and has only since been informed of this in preparation for this testimony.

Starting point is 00:50:19 Okay. Bill was asked about a New York Times article claiming to expound on Bill and Epstein's relationship in the 90s, characterized as chummy, which Bill denies. He said that he didn't even know Epstein really during this time, even though they may have been at the same events. He was asked about being asked to write a personal note

Starting point is 00:50:45 to Jeffrey Epstein's mother. Bill said that he never met Jeffrey Epstein's mother. and that he wrote a lot of notes to a lot of people that he did not know. He was unsure of who asked him to write this note. He was also asked about this passport appearing to belong to Epstein bearing a different name, with the questioner asserting that they believe Jeffrey Epstein was an intelligence operative running a honeypot against the president. When later asked if he believes that he was targeted,

Starting point is 00:51:15 Bill says that it's possible. The lawyers objected this based on speculation, but Bill says he doesn't know if he was targeted, but would be surprised. Referred to Jeffrey Epstein as a, quote-unquote, vacuum cleaner of information, but was not overtly manipulative early on, saying that Epstein mostly asked about derivatives trading and stock market regulation. Bill was asked if he ever had contact with someone named Shante Davies, who was a, quote-unquote, flight attendant on Epstein's plane.

Starting point is 00:51:44 Bill confirms that he did and confirmed that a neck rub took place once with Shantay Davies, but denied he ever went to the island. I don't know, something about neck rub and Bill Clinton just makes my stomach hurt. Yeah, he later says that he was unaware of the abuse happening to Shanty Davies and says that he, quote, wish Shanty had told me, I liked her. But said that he did not think there was anything unusual. He said that massages on rich people's planes and boats weren't uncommon, was never aware of anyone under the age of 18 on these flights,

Starting point is 00:52:22 and if there were, that would have made him uncomfortable. He specified that Secret Service was with him for every single trip. He, quote, never signed off Secret Service protection. He talked about specifically this neck rub incident saying that he had a sore neck during one of the flags of these Clinton Foundation Aid trips and received a massage this one time. That's what he claimed. He was asked about the note in Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday book.

Starting point is 00:52:50 Bill said that his own staff asked him to write a letter for the book, specifying that he sends out hundreds of birthday letters every year to friends or people he's only met a few times, a regular occurrence. He's asked to read a section of the letter that people had a hard time transcribing exactly, which makes a reference to Epstein having made errors in his life. and he was asked whether this errors referred to sex crimes. Bill said no in the life of someone 50 years old. They're going to make mistakes.

Starting point is 00:53:23 It was a throwaway line in one section of this very short letter. I don't think it's super relevant. Now, around this time when they're reading from this letter is where there's this viral clip of Bill pulling back a copy of a photo from his lawyers while smiling. This has circulated a lot. it looks like he's no, like, recounting, like, good memories or something. The piece of paper he's pulling back is actually just a copy of a New York Times article.

Starting point is 00:53:50 It's not a picture of him and Epstein. It's not a picture of memories. There may be a small photo framed in the picture included in this New York Times article that's being passed around. But it's not like he's, like, flipping through, like, a year book of, like, good moments with friends and, like, you know, happily recounting. I think this little clip's been decontextualized. I agree. I'm not trying to defend Bill Clinton here. No, I'm adding context for what's actually happening in this hearing.

Starting point is 00:54:20 And his lawyers are passing around a copy of a New York Times article, which he's being questioned about. And that's the context for that clip. And like, this clip went pretty viral. And so I was talking about it actually with my mom. My mom's first reaction held some weight with me. She was like, that's just Bill Clinton's face. He's kind of this happy, goofy guy. Like, he's generally like a smiley guy.

Starting point is 00:54:46 And, you know, I think that makes sense contextually here. Again, not defending Bill Clinton. But, yeah. I do want to play one clip about Trump. Bill was asked if the committee should talk to Donald Trump, since it's a name. Here's more frequently in the files on almost any other person. Bill says that's up to the committee. And mentions an instance where he talked with Trump about Epstein on a golf.

Starting point is 00:55:12 course, for a charity tournament around 2002 to 2003. And they talked about Epstein because Trump somehow knew that Bill had flown on the plane. But besides this incident, he had no other conversations with Trump about Epstein or Maxwell. The day I was there, he would typically Donald Trump would come out and play a few holes with us. And he somehow knew I had flown in Jeffrey Epstein's aircraft and he said, you know, we had some great times together over the years, but we fell out all because of a real estate deal. And he said, I'm sorry it happened. That's all. Do you recall whether President Trump was the first one to affirmatively bring up the subject of Jeffrey Epstein? No, but I'd be shocked if I did. I just don't do that. I don't, you know.

Starting point is 00:56:10 Do you recall whether President Trump elaborated at all on the great times that he had with Jeffrey Epstein? No, and at the time I took no, I didn't put any, you know, sexual spin on it. And as far as you recall, President Trump characterized the nature of the ending of their friendship as being solely due to the real estate bidding. That's what he said. Interestingly here, Bill recounts that Trump's reason for breaking with Epstein was due to a real estate deal, not the poaching of employees at Marlago, as alternatively reported. Right. The minority, the Democrats, referred to statements from three Jeffrey Epstein victims in statements, including Bill in some way, starting with someone named to Maria Farmer, an Epstein employee who first reported abuse to the NYPD and FBI in 1996. She claimed that she had knowledge that Bill visited Epstein's house multiple times.

Starting point is 00:57:11 Bill denies this. Someone named Virginia Roberts Truffey remarked that she had knowledge that Bill was at Epstein's Island. Bill responded by saying that ultimately his person, quote unquote, reached a different conclusion and denied a claim that he flew in a helicopter with Glane Maxwell to the island. And the committee member reference a diary entry as the piece of information asserting that Bill was on the island. Bill's lawyers ask about the dates for this entry so that they could determine whether Bill was in a different part of the world around this time. But this gets moved on pretty quick. They briefly bring up this picture of Bill in a hot tub in Brunei.

Starting point is 00:57:57 He says that he was staying at a hotel during one of these AIDS trips and briefly, went to a hot tub. Other people were present from this trip, Secret Service. He was asked about a bizarre painting of Bill Clinton wearing Monica Lewinsky's blue dress found in Jeffrey Epstein's apartment. Bill said he'd never seen it before. Was asked to speculate why this painting was made. Lawyers said that the committee can ask the artist. Lauren Bobbott goes on a very poor line of questioning regarding a conversation transcript between two people. And this line of questioning requires deposition to go off the record to figure out what exactly she's talking about, Bill eventually responds to a question stating that he never felt that he owed

Starting point is 00:58:36 Jeffrey Epstein any favors and never participated in any quote-unquote island orgies since he never traveled to the U.S. of Virgin Islands with Jeffrey Epstein. About two hours in, Bill Clinton is asked if he thinks Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. Something they never asked Hillary. I would just like to ask you personally and directly, do you believe that Jeffrey Epstein killed himself? Are you asking him to speculate on how Mr. Epstein died? I'm asking what the president thinks of... So you're asking his opinion? Mr. President, was your friend Jeffrey Epstein suicidal?

Starting point is 00:59:10 Are you classifying him as a friend who he has testified that he was friendly? He has called him a friend in a letter. He said he was friendly, but you've asked for his testimony here. Mr. President, do you believe that Jeffrey Epstein was suicidal? Do you know? Was he ever suicidal? I don't know. I only know what the medical founding was. I think maybe

Starting point is 00:59:30 he finally got caught and I don't know I've accepted it in my own mind I don't know what happened Mr. President, what did you accept that he killed himself or that he did not? But he did but I don't know yes sir. Thank you Mr. President.

Starting point is 00:59:47 None of us know. We weren't there. Mr. President, it's been an honor. Thank you. Thank you. Why would you ask him that? That makes no sense. Well, I mean, again, this is Lauren Bobber, the same person asking about Pizza Gate. She's trying to dunk in as many of these conspiracy theory questions as she can,

Starting point is 01:00:04 because that's like who she is, right? She is a conspiracy theorist herself. She may not characterize it that way. But she's trying to, you know, go off a checklist of like Epic owns against the evil child eating Clintons. A few other small notes that I think are interesting. Bill was asked about emails being sent to Galane Maxwell by one of his assistants. and Bill says that he never sent these emails and he's only ever sent two emails in his life,

Starting point is 01:00:32 which I do believe. I can too. It's so crazy. Oh, Bill. Wow. Bill was asked about a statement that Epstein made saying that Bill, quote unquote, likes them young. Ew.

Starting point is 01:00:46 Bill's lawyers ask, you know, if Bill's being asked to speculate on Jeffrey Epstein's mind. Bill says that this isn't true that he, quote, unquote, likes them young and never went to the island again. Mace later asks if it's unusual for a quote-unquote sitting president to receive a massage.

Starting point is 01:01:05 Bill's lawyers had to argue back and forth because Bill was not a sitting president during the time where this neck massage incident occurred. Bill's once again asked if he was the target of an intel operation. He says, I doubt it. There was then an extended argument between Mace and lawyers

Starting point is 01:01:20 in reference to Daily Beast reporting on a statement Bill made after Jeffrey Epstein's as a 19 arrest, mischaracterizing two instances where Jeffrey Epstein visited the Clinton office and Bill once visited Jeffrey Epstein's New York apartment, which he later remarked Jeffrey Epstein was not even present for. And Nancy Mace kept asking if Bill lied about only meeting Jeffrey Epstein at these two times, based on the phrasing of the Daily Beast article. But the full statement that the Daily Beast was quoting from also lists the four plane trips which contained a total of 17 stops.

Starting point is 01:01:55 The Beast article just mischaracterized this as only being two incidents, and Mace was referring to the article, not the actual original statement. This resulted in a pretty extensive argument. This leads us to the final clip that I'll play, which I think is kind of the only interesting question across the nine hours of testimony. The only question I think is actually kind of interesting and worthwhile, and it's not actually followed up on in any substantial way. Nancy Macek asks why the Clintons still associated with Gleine Maxwell after Jeffrey Epstein's first conviction,

Starting point is 01:02:31 knowing that Maxwell was one of Epstein's closest associates. First of all, when the wedding occurred, she was with Ted White, and she was for several more years. We did not know when Epstein was arrested that she was. she was still involved with him. I think that clears a lot of this up. We didn't know. And I don't want all I need to get. We're all getting in a lot of it.

Starting point is 01:03:12 There's a logical explanation. We didn't know. And I'm sorry for what she did and what she allowed her life to become. And now she's living with it. They do not follow up on this at all. The fact that the Clintons, knowing that Maxwell was like Epstein's number two guy, spent a decent about a time with on these four plane trips in 2002 to 2003 on these humanitarian aid Clinton Foundation trips. You know, a lot of time with Galane and Epstein. The committee did not follow up on why they continued to associate even loosely, like very loosely with Galane after the 2008 conviction.

Starting point is 01:03:53 Yeah. That's a pretty reasonable question to have and it just doesn't even get focused on very. much. Instead, they start talking about this report from an Epstein victim about Bill Clinton allegedly walking into the offices of Vanity Fair and threatening them to not write sex trafficking articles about Jeffrey Epstein, something that Bill obviously denies and there would be other witnesses for this event. But this question about the Clinton's extended relationship with Clayne Maxwell after the first conviction is one of like the very last questions asked. It takes them nine hours to get there. Yeah. They don't even follow up on it. And

Starting point is 01:04:29 it just kind of ends very, very flaccid. I'm sorry to the survivors, like you're not getting any kind of justice. This committee is incompetent, embarrassing, and repugnant. Yeah, and that kind of sums up the hearing. All of the hearings. They were incompetent, embarrassing, and repugnant. Really spending more time on weird conspiracy theories than asking, like, new questions. On Pizza Gate.

Starting point is 01:04:58 Yeah, because, like, they ask. Hillary and Bill, basically the same two questions over and over again, getting the same answers, wasting hours and hours of time. The only new questions they asked are these insane conspiracy ones. It's embarrassing. It does not hold any relevance to the investigation. And it's nine hours of my life. I'll never get back. Yep. Well, that does it for us here at It Could Happen here.

Starting point is 01:05:20 We'll keep following some of these hearings and depositions as this continues. I know there was new FBI documents about witness, statements regarding President Trump released as I was writing this, like last night. We'll probably be talking about those in the executive disorder and later on throughout our coverage. Bye. Bye. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are at them.

Starting point is 01:05:57 And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology,

Starting point is 01:06:28 natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all.

Starting point is 01:07:07 If you're navigating your own transformation or just want to chart side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction.

Starting point is 01:07:46 And how did a 2023 event called Wag A Geddon change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip. on No Grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation.

Starting point is 01:08:34 with an actress and producer, Jamie Lee Curtis, ahead of the release of her new thriller series, Scarpetta. I can honestly say I've never done an interview like that before. You know, at one point, I shut my laptop down. And we just started chatting as old friends, recent Oscar recipient. So we have some commonality there. I predicted that, by the way. And you said these words to me, dust off your mantle. Yes.

Starting point is 01:09:02 And I looked at you and I said, what? And you said, dust off your mantle. And then I left and that was it. And then when all of that happened, I remember the next morning, I think I wanted to, like, write you and go, how did you know? Listen to the Questleaf show on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happens here. A podcast where the economy is falling apart a new and exciting ways faster than I can run. write about it. I am your host, Mia Wong. Welcome to what has turned into a kind of emergency

Starting point is 01:09:46 is the economy collapsing episode. This episode was originally supposed to be about tariffs, but while I was writing the tariff episode, a bunch of shit happened like we invaded Iran. And Kospi, which is the leading Korean stock market index, had its largest single drop in its entire history, which triggered its circuit breaker. Circuit breakers are a thing that stock markets have now where if the stock market collapses, like if it loses points too fast in a certain period of time, all trading will automatically stop for a bit. So it hits its circuit breaker. The tie index also hits its circuit breaker. And then in the wee hours of sort of Monday morning American time, I start seeing a bunch of people posting that Cosby hit the circuit breaker.

Starting point is 01:10:34 breaker. And I'm very confused because that happened on like Wednesday, right? Like this already happened. No, no, no, no. Wrong. Wrong. Happened again. It's two circuit breakers in like four sessions. So this has turned into an unbelievable crisis. Yeah. So we're going to get the tariff episode at some point talking about the Supreme Court tariff rulings and stuff like that. That will happen. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. But right now we need to answer the question, is the economy about to collapse and tentatively it has been held off at least for a little bit? Now, this is being recorded early Monday afternoon on March 9th, by the time this goes out on March 10th, who the fuck knows what will have happened. But let's talk about what happened

Starting point is 01:11:27 in the run-up to all of this because it's very important. So in the lead-up to the open of the American markets, we had a massive spike in oil futures, like one of the largest single-day spikes in oil futures ever. It looks like it's going to be the apocalypse for the markets, and the reason it looks like this is because, and this is something that's genuinely astounding. So, one-fifth of the world's oil moves through the straight of Formouche. We're going to talk about this in more detail later, and obviously there is now a war. which means that you can't move oil through it. And people suddenly realized that, oh my God, this is going to raise oil prices.

Starting point is 01:12:13 Now, when I was originally writing this episode in the Halcyon days of Friday of last week, part of this episode was about why oil prices were not spiking because they didn't spike immediately upon the start of the war. Right. And I was very confused about this because the explanation at the time was that people were like, oh, it'll be fine. The U.S. Navy can escort oil tankers through the Strait O'Crow Moves. No, they can't.

Starting point is 01:12:37 Like, the narrowest part of it's 23 miles wide. Like, what are we doing here? What, like, forget drones. You can hit these oil tankers with like a fucking trebuechet. What are we doing here? What was the administration telling to oil companies, right? And then a few days later, everyone collectively realized, oh, my

Starting point is 01:12:53 God, we can't move oil. And, yeah, no shit you can't move oil. Jesus. Christ. Like, this is unbelievable stuff from the people who are in the oil markets, from the oil executives, from the Gulf monarchies, from all of the people planning this. Why would you think this wouldn't happen? And we're going to get into that actually in a little bit because there is apparently a reason why they thought this is going to happen, which is some combination of just pure lies and

Starting point is 01:13:24 willful belief and some of the worst strategic planning I've ever seen in my entire life. But, you know, the ability to close the straight-of-moos is the reason why even if you are like President Donald Trump, the kind of person who doesn't give a shit, if, you know, your army burns Iranian children to death, right? Even if you don't care that you fucking bombed a fucking school, you don't fight this war because it fucks with the money. Now, in anticipation of what looked like it was going to be just a market pounding, Trump gave. a phone interview with CBS's senior White House correspondent, Weja Zhang, who posted this on Twitter. This is her reporting of his statements. This is from Donald Trump, quote, I think the war is very complete, pretty much. They have no Navy, no communication, they've got no Air Force. He added that the U.S. is, quote, very far ahead of his initial three to four week time frame. You know, he also said

Starting point is 01:14:29 that ships are moving through it now, but he's also, quote, thinking about taking it over? Which, what? Just officially conquering the straight-of-oom-moose instead of merely, like, protecting it with American fleet assets? This is completely unhinged.

Starting point is 01:14:47 And that he also said, quote, they've shot everything they have to shoot and they better not try anything cute or it's going to be the end of that country. Now, okay, so the part of this, right, that went to the markets is that he thinks the war is over. Now, the part of it where he says if Iran fights back in any way, quote, it's going to be the end of that country, apparently did not hit the markets. The people running the markets are really, really dumb.

Starting point is 01:15:15 They think and act like herd animals. This is, I guess, slightly an insult to hurt animals, because hurt animals react that way for a reason. These people are human beings. They have the capacity for logic and reason. They have the same capacity for logic and reason that we do, and they still act like this. But this has, has calmed the markets down and it's sent oil prices back down again. We're going to get into why that's kind of nonsense in a little bit. But it's also worth noting in terms of Trump saying the war is nearly over that every single other quote Trump has said about this war has been he's in this for the long haul. He's thinking about troops on the ground. He is not going to get

Starting point is 01:15:53 bored with it. He doesn't care the gas prices are going up. Someone asked his press secretary about whether he's ruled out the draft and she said, no, he hadn't, which is, I mean, like, they're not going to do a draft, but, like, that's ridiculous. Why would you say that? It's also worth noting that, so he has a 250-year anniversary commission thing that he set up, that he's very, very excited about. That's like, it's America, 250 year, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that commissions, like, one of their big people was ringing the opening bell on Wall Street this morning. So, you know, I suspect that there's a lot of sort of motivated reasoning here going on with Trump saying, oh, that's fine, it's going to be fine, the war is nearly over.

Starting point is 01:16:34 Do, do, do, do, do to do. Okay. So I quite frankly do not believe the president when he says that the war is nearly over. I mean, I guess maybe there's a scenario where everything we're about to talk about causes a crisis that is large enough to, you know, actually set off Trump pulling out of the war under pressure from his allies in the region, which is to say the Arab monarchies. I don't know to what extent that's actually going to happen. But let's talk about what the crisis here is. So the U.S.'s war against Iran has triggered what could be the start of a full-on energy crisis.

Starting point is 01:17:19 that energy crisis has been postponed for one day, I guess, as of again time of recording Monday, March 9th. But this could be the start of a fallout energy crisis, and it's not just me saying this. Here is the subtitle of the Wall Street Journal's big piece on this. Quote, Traffic through the Strait of Formuz has ground to a virtual halt, unleashing the most severe energy crisis since the 1970s and threatening the global economy. So that's not good. Now, I began this episode talking about a collapse on South Korean and high markets. And I also mentioned, by the way, that, like, when that collapse happened, all the other Asian markets kind of ate shit.

Starting point is 01:17:59 The Chinese markets were sort of more stable for reasons we'll get to you in a second. But, like, Japan, like the Niki was down, like, 4%. Like, all of the other Asian markets kind of ate shit, right? Taiwanese market. And the reason for that is, well, again, as I said above, one-fifth of the world's oil supply, crude oil, is shipped through the Strait of Fremuz, and this is an issue for a country like South Korea, which imports almost all of its oil,

Starting point is 01:18:25 and whose economy, like manufacturing economy in particular, is very, very heavily dependent on oil. This is true of a lot of other countries in that region, and South Korea and Thailand and Taiwan and Japan are not countries like China, which have much of oil stockpiles and have the ability to get oil through other ways. Now, I want to take a second to actually explain

Starting point is 01:18:46 what the Strait of Farmuz is. is. So the Strait of Famoos is a straight. It's like there's a little bit of water, but it's close to land. I talked to said earlier that the narrowest part of it is 23 miles, so it's very narrow. And it is a passage between the Persian Gulf and effectively the Indian Ocean. Right. And once you're out into the Indian Ocean, you can get to the rest of the world that is, you know, east of that, which is all of Asia, most of the rest of the world that's not west of you. Right. Now, I'm just bordering the Persian Gulf who are in the area who need to ship their oil out through here, include Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE and Saudi Arabia. Those are a bunch of oil-producing countries.

Starting point is 01:19:32 You know, they are now also countries that are embroiled in this war because they are part of the American Alliance. And you can ask the very reasonable question, okay, so if you're part of the American Alliance, why the fuck would you be like okay with the United States? launching this attack on Iran. On a more vulgar level, you can ask the question, how the fuck was this allowed to happen? This is the money. This is the global economy that you are fucking with, right? Now, one of the things that the Wall Street Journal talks about is that officials in the U.S. and Israel told the Gulf states that there wouldn't be retaliation by Iran, right? That Iran wouldn't target oil facilities. They would just target American military bases. They had a whole thing about how, oh, well, during the war with Israel,

Starting point is 01:20:17 they did only target American military bases. They didn't, like, bomb any of the oil infrastructure. They were sending Mr. Bean memes in their group chats about how weak the Iranian retaliation was going to be. So this is not just a situation of pure, you know, motivated reasoning. We were lying to them, etc., etc.

Starting point is 01:20:36 Like, the Americans appeared to have actually believed some of this that Iran's retaliation was going to be weak. I've seen reports that they thought, that Iran was out of drones. I don't know why you would think this. Baffling, their drones are extremely cheap to produce. Like, they've used them, but why would you think they didn't have more? And I just want to point out, right? So their point of reference here was, oh, Iran showed restraint in the war with Israel. This is a 12-day conflict where Israel and Iran sort of fired missiles at each other and stuff after Israel assassinated a bunch of people for doing nuclear

Starting point is 01:21:11 stuff. But, okay, let's look at this for a second. My brother in Christ, you killed the fucking Ayatollah. This is an existential war for survival of the regime. Of course they were going to target your oil facilities. Are you fucking kidding me? Your goal here was regime change. You literally assassinated their fucking head of state. You literally killed him.

Starting point is 01:21:35 What the fuck did you think was going to happen? Oh my God, these people are so fucking dumb. And it's obviously not clear. exactly like who knew what about this plan. But again, like it seems like the plan was put into place because they had the opportunity to kill it, to kill it, community. And like, okay, if that's true. And presumably, the Gulf states would know that. Why the fuck would they not expect retaliation? I expected this. I'm a podcaster. I mean, I know I'm very smart, but like, these people

Starting point is 01:22:09 and their advisors are running fucking, like, some of the most important governments in the entire world. I don't know. bad system of government, electing Donald Trump also apparently bad system of government, you're getting just, oh my God, holy fuck these people are stupid. Oh my God. They really, truly, they really truly believed that Iran was not going to pick up the weapon that it has always had, that has always been the thing for the reason why you don't fight this fucking war, even if you don't care about Iranian lives that you're willing to spend American lives. Right. They really thought they wouldn't do it. I just,

Starting point is 01:22:45 I just, I can't get over this. I just, oh my God. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Okay, we're, we're gonna go to ads. I'm mad as hell. I'm not gonna take it anymore. Here are some ads.

Starting point is 01:23:11 Okay, calming down a little bit. Let's get back to the actual oil of it all. So let's talk about the quality of the oil here. Now, sharp-eared listeners may remember that when I talked about Venezuelan oil, Bacti in our Executive Disorder episode about the previous war a couple of months ago. A sentence so unhinged, I had to go back, check the date to make sure of it I wasn't hallucinating, but no, it was January 3rd, 2026 when we had our last war with a major oil producer

Starting point is 01:23:40 where we, in some way, incapacitated or killed the head of state. By the way, we're still just like holding Maduro hostage. This is just still a thing that we're doing right now. Incredible stuff, incredible, like normal government shit, bad things happening. But in that episode, which would have been the executive disorder that came out on Friday the January 9th, I talked about how Venezuelan crude oil is not very good, right? It's extremely sour, kind of sucks. The combo composition is bad. The oil in the Gulf is not like that.

Starting point is 01:24:10 This is good oil. This is one fifth of the world's crude oil supply, right? And also, it is now, because of coders, like liquidified natural gas production, this is now also a shutdown of a significant portion of the world's liquefied natural gas, which is, again, extremely important to the economy. And also, you know, one of the biggest sort of climate hoaxes in all of this, right? And I'm saying climate hoaxes here. There's been a whole push to be like, oh, we should transition to natural gas because

Starting point is 01:24:36 it's cleaner than oil. And, like, kind of a little bit in the sense that, like, dunking your head into a swamp is probably cleaner than dunking your head directly into, like, a shitful toilet. And also it's only cleaner, assuming that no methane escapes during the production process. But the thing is, methane fucking escapes dream the production process of natural gas all the fucking time. And methane is like, to get a sense, so we're talking about greenhouse gases here, right? And obviously we're familiar with CO2 as like the major pollutant that we produce. Methane is a greenhouse gas that is so fucked that it is better to light it on fire and have it burn and have it emit that CO2.

Starting point is 01:25:19 2 into the air, that is better for the environment than letting fucking methane into it. It is that fucked of a greenhouse gas, right? And, you know, a lot of this stuff escapes. And this is a point that I've been, you know, trying to find a thing to put in this episode, right? One of the big things here is why are we still using oil to this extent? And, you know, it has to do with sort of, I mean, just the utter cowardice and evil and short-sided profit motive chasing of the entire world ruling class. It has to do with specific efforts by the oil lobby in order to make sure that politics would happen like this.

Starting point is 01:25:54 We can talk about like the role of Pennsylvania and like fracking as like an electoral thing. We can talk about sort of the kind of Andreas Malm fossil capital thesis about the place that you want to produce things being a place that both has stable energy and also a sort of, I don't know, I guess the capitalist would call it disciplined workforce, but like a workforce that's not like or. organized, and that's not militant, so you can exploit them. And the places where those things are true, for example, like this century largely has been China, where, you know, if you try to do independent union organizing, they will arrest you, sometimes you will get disappeared. And that also coincides with, you know, they have an energy grid, and the energy grid is extremely pollution intensive. It still is, even as, you know, China's sort of renewable energy push has been happening, is still extremely carbon intensive. So, okay, obviously,

Starting point is 01:26:49 Like, we're in this nightmare because a whole bunch of people who really, really, really, really desperately want us to burn the entire world alive so they can keep making money. But we're turning to the original thing before I got pissed off about people saying that natural gas is cleaner than oil. It's like, just fucking use literally any other way to generate energy that's not fucking oil or natural gas or coal or, I guess, nuclear too, but, like, we have other ways of generating power.

Starting point is 01:27:18 We could do this. But because we haven't done this, this massive decrease in oil supply, because again, nothing's fucking going through the Gulf. There's like a couple of ships have gone through. This is causing a crisis in the global economy. I'm going to quote the Wall Street Journal. If the straight is still closed this Friday, output in the region could fall by more than four million barrels.

Starting point is 01:27:37 Conavos, an analyst they were quoting earlier, estimates. The decline could reach about nine million by the end of March, representing almost a tenth of global demand. Now, it's worth noting here, right, that you know, you look at a tenth of global demand and you go, oh, okay, so it's like a 10% reduction. But it's actually way worse than that because, again, people have this tendency to look at oil as just liquid money that moves freely around the world. But that reduction in supply is not evenly distributed across the world, right? There are countries who have extraordinary needs of it who get their oil from the Middle East. This is places like, for example, Korea, from Thailand, Myanmar, we're going to get to get to you in a little bit.

Starting point is 01:28:19 Are places who are relying on this oil. And, you know, for South Korea, it's like 70% of their oil comes from this region. Right. So that 10% of global demand is not spread evenly across the world is intensified into acute crises in very, very specific economies. And this is a compounding crisis because as the Wall Street Journal points out, like, it's not just that the trade is closed for the first time ever, right? rate has never been closed. Like, there was a point where the U.S. was like escorting things through during the Iran-Iraq war, but like, it's never just been closed before. It's not just that, like, you know, oil, natural gas and fertilizer isn't coming out of there either, which is a real

Starting point is 01:28:58 fucking problem that we'll talk about in a second. This is not just an immediate crisis of we can't move the oil that we have out. There was a secondary crisis, which is that where the fuck do you put the oil, right? If you get one thing out of listening to me to talk about oil, that, again, it's not just liquid money. It's a material substance, and the actual substance of oil and what it is and how it's produced has really wide-reaching political effects, right? Because when you take this stuff out of the ground, the system is designed so that it is moved extremely quickly.

Starting point is 01:29:30 Now, there are countries like Iraq that could, in theory, still produce oil, right? But there aren't enough containers to store it, so they have to shut production down. Now, you could be like, okay, well, but why don't they just ship it out through the Mediterranean? and the answer was that the pipelines and the shipping equipment there just don't have the throughput. Oil distribution is very, very flexible, and this is what makes disrupting it harder than something like coal used to be. But it is designed to a point to be sort of nodal and flexible and able to sort of deal with supply reduction crises, right? It's not designed to deal with this, which is a full-on energy crisis level. Like, oh, my God, we can't get oil out.

Starting point is 01:30:12 through the trade-or-h-h-moos. This is a scale of issue that can't simply be solved by just moving the supply around and distributing it differently. This is not a solution to this. And so these are having these interlocking effects, right? Because also, again, these things are designed to be going constantly, and it's not just a thing where you can just turn it off and turn it back on again. It doesn't work like that. These are actual very, very complicated technical processes. If you turn these things off, this is, again, very important. If you turn these wells off, some of them will never turn back on again. So we're talking about permanent damage to the supply, right? Even if tomorrow, right?

Starting point is 01:30:48 Like the war is suddenly over and everything quote unquote goes back to normal. We're talking about still like permanent damage to the supply. And this is where again you can be like, well, okay, but like, why don't we just transition from oil? And again, you can also ask like, why should we give a shit about this? There's a few reasons. When I say this is a compounding crisis, the Wall Street Journal talked about this a little bit, but in every article you read about this, you will see people make. making the argument that, oh, it's fine.

Starting point is 01:31:23 Like, the U.S. is more insulated than it was from oil prices in the 70s when it just caused a major global crisis. And that's kind of true to a certain extent, right? The U.S. is an oil producer. But also, again, oil is not just something that's used for cars, right? And our domestic economy doesn't just rely on oil. Like, you can't just, you know, you make plastics out of oil, right? But even that, you don't just make things wholesale out of oil.

Starting point is 01:31:50 like everything you consume has other things in it. And it relies on products like, for example, aluminum and, you know, things like copper and everything from basic commodities to sort of like refined goods that rely on there being oil, right? Like, again, we're talking about South Korea's economy. South Korea produces, there's a whole bunch of microchip production stuff that goes on there. You know, there's like Samsung, right, major foam manufacturer. So there's all of this very, very high tech stuff too. on the bottom

Starting point is 01:32:21 and we're talking about like you can't refine the aluminum anymore. You know, not that you can't, like places are shutting down their capacity to do

Starting point is 01:32:27 it because they can't get oil or they can't afford this oil. To the extent that we're seeing something called force majeum being deployed by a whole bunch of companies

Starting point is 01:32:35 across the world in different sectors. And force majorum is this legal concept you can apply that's like an act of God where, for example, like I don't know,

Starting point is 01:32:43 if there's like a once in a century earthquake and it like obliterates your factory you're not legally liable to pay stuff out to people because it's, it's an act of God, like you can't be legally held liable for it. And people are doing this for their aluminum production to say like, yeah, sorry, we can't meet our contracts. We can't meet

Starting point is 01:32:59 our quotas that you bought from us. Like, not our fault. Nothing we can do about it. It's happening with oil producers because it's also worth noting that it's not just that the straight is closed. Iran is also hitting oil facilities. Israel is also hitting oil facilities in Iran. They hit one in Tehran, like a massive one in Tehran that's releasing all of these fucking toxic chemicals into the air. And that has set off a massive ecological crisis because all of these people are enormous numbers of people in Iran are going to die because of this, not just because of the bombings, but because it turns out when you fucking blow up an oil facility releases a bunch of extremely toxic chemicals into the air that caused fucking cancer and stuff like that. And so

Starting point is 01:33:45 what you're dealing with, right, is this crisis. in which all of these different aspects of the economy that rely on oil are impacted, right? It's basic commodities. It's highly advanced, like, parts of, like, somebody can after manufacturing. It's, you know, all of these things that rely on oil are suddenly constrained and suddenly supply chains are fragmenting. You know, the U.S. gets things from all over the world. But the crisis right now has mostly been hitting East Asia, right? I talked about Korea. talked about Thailand. The thing is, right, crises in East Asia do not stay in East Asia.

Starting point is 01:34:23 Like, the Asian market collapse heralded a whole bunch of other debt crises. This is the Asian market collapse in the 90s, right? Heralds a bunch of debt crises in places like Mexico heralds the collapse of the U.S. economy during the dot-com bubble. It causes, as it say it with me, long-time listeners of the show, it's what causes the reverse plaza accords to try to bail out the entire world economy, which is where the U.S. like nuked its own manufacturing economy. mean by reversing Reagan's attempt to force all of the rest of the countries in the world

Starting point is 01:34:53 to increase the value of their currencies relative to the dollars, so the U.S. he competed in manufacturing better. You know, so it affects all these places, you know, and that effect will boomerang back here. But as is always true with American imperialism, the people suffering from this, the most are not Americans. It's people in Iran, right? It's people who are getting fucking blown up. It's people who are breathing in toxic chemicals.

Starting point is 01:35:22 It's people whose lives have been destroyed and ruined by American imperialism. And beyond Iran, it's Pakistan, it's India, it's Bangladesh, it's Taiwan, it's Thailand, it's the Philippines, South Korea, it's Myanmar, like, it's Indonesia. I mean, it's a lesser than Indonesia. But, you know, we're talking about potential crop failure, some lack of fertilizer, right? We're talking about economic ruin. We're talking about the destabilization of the world economy or talking about people dying from fucking cancer. When we're talking about the global economic effects of this, that's what we're really dealing with here, regardless of

Starting point is 01:36:01 what happens on the American stock markets, is a whole bunch of people who never had anything to do with this fucking suffering and dying because of the fucking greed and pride and vanity and hatred the American ruling class. Now, I'm going to close on a slightly lighter note, which is, people who follow the economy very closely will be talking about how KOSPI, the Korean Index, had a massive bubble, and that's why it collapsed, and that's why it had like two circuit breakers, and that's why it's going down so much. That's kind of true, right?

Starting point is 01:36:35 But that bubble is an AI bubble. Now, it is a larger and more concentrated version of the American AI bubble. But, you know, the American economy is an AI bubble. And the thing about AI is that it's propped up by gas prices, right? AI is enormously, enormously fuel-intensive. It just wastes a staggering, unhinged amount of energy, right? And it can only really function as long as those oil prices are very cheap and as long as, you know, natural gas prices are cheap.

Starting point is 01:37:12 And it's also worth noting that, you know, These AI things are also doing physical infrastructure. Because these people are just like absolute clowns, they've been buying into the Gulf monarchy's attempts to attract a tech sector there. So they've been hit, and Iran has been taking advantage of this by hitting Amazon data centers in the Gulf states. So that's another way where this can potentially just sort of toss and nuke into the global economy is that like the price of running all of these AI things suddenly starts to

Starting point is 01:37:42 increase. and the kind of worst-case scenario scenario for this, right? The one that we've been looking at in terms of what could happen to the world economy is what's been being discussed more and more, which is a version of the crisis of the 70s, which is an economic crisis of increasing inflation and also increasing unemployment that completely reshaped the entire global economy. It's why we have neoliberalism.

Starting point is 01:38:09 You know, it's a complete collapse with the social democratic system that had come before it. It changes the international system. entire global world order, right? The U.S. goes off the gold standard. Like, things change that had never changed before. And we're going to talk about that more on the tariff episode, but that to a large extent, to the

Starting point is 01:38:25 ruling class, is what is at stake here, right? It's whether it is worth destroying the global economy in order for Trump to kill more people in Iran. This has been it could happen here. Canadian women are looking for more.

Starting point is 01:38:48 More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders and the world around them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life.

Starting point is 01:39:27 And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic, Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives. and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

Starting point is 01:39:54 He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast, starting on February 24th on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

Starting point is 01:40:23 Why hasn't a woman formerly participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wag Ageddon change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip,

Starting point is 01:40:59 a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actors and producer, Jamie Lee Curtis, ahead of the release of her new thriller series, Scarpetta.

Starting point is 01:41:36 I can honestly say I've never done an interview like that before. At one point, I shut my laptop down. And we just started chatting as old friends, recent Oscar recipient. So we have some commonality there. I predicted that, by the way. And you said these words to me, dust off your mantle. Yes. And I looked at you and I said, what?

Starting point is 01:42:01 And you said, dust off your mantle. And then I left and that was it. And then when all of that happened, I don't know. remember the next morning, I think I wanted to, like, write you and go, how did you know? Listen to the Questlove show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and this is It Could Happen here. Today, we've got a special episode for you. This is a guest episode by Olive, a Minneapolis resident and movement legal worker who hosts the Outlaw podcast. So, without further ado, here's Olive.

Starting point is 01:42:49 Hi, and welcome to the first crossover episode of It Could Happen Here and Outlaw, an anti-oppression podcast where we demystify how the law is used to neutralize dissent in the U.S. I'm your host, Olive. I live in Minneapolis, and if you've read a single headline over the last two months, you probably know that we are battling the largest immigration enforcement operation in U.S. history. Since early December, Minnesota has been occupied by 3,000 agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, and Customs and Border Protection, CBP, who have already abducted, imprisoned, and deported at least 4,000 people. In the face of this devastating federal occupation, people are showing up every single day to defend their migrant neighbors in unimaginably beautiful ways. and on the other side of this effective resistance is expansive legal repression.

Starting point is 01:43:59 All of the many ways the state uses the law and its enforcement mechanisms to crush dissent. More than 400 people have been arrested for protesting ICE or following ICE vehicles, with 35 of them now facing federal charges under 18 USC 111, assaulting, resisting or impeding a federal officer. I think it's really important for those of you outside of Minnesota to know how law enforcement and political prosecution are working here because it might come to where you live too and it's different than other kinds of movement repression that I've seen.

Starting point is 01:44:36 Instead of the agencies that normally police citizen protesters, like local and state cops or the FBI, it's primarily ICE and CBP who are carrying out arrests and its Homeland Security investigations doing, the investigations. It's happening this way because arrests are mostly happening when people are responding to ICE activity, and so those are the agencies who are present to make arrests. This impacts everything, from how arrests go down and the conditions of incarceration to the kinds of charges that people are catching. To understand what all this actually means, you need to hear

Starting point is 01:45:15 from those who are experiencing it, the people who have been detained and prosecuted for protesting ice. So in this episode, you'll hear two interviews from Minneapolis rapid responders. First, you'll hear from Clem and Ray about their experience, being arrested out of their car, and taken into ICE detention. And second, Lucy and Isabel will talk about catching charges and navigating cases during the surge. Stick around at the end for a special treat, a poem from Isabel and a new song out of Minneapolis that responds to the surge. And just a heads up before we get into it. In this episode, you're going to hear people talk about their first-hand experiences with police violence.

Starting point is 01:45:59 So take care of yourself. And if you like the episode, check out the other episodes of Outlaw wherever you listen to podcasts. From the north, from the south, from everywhere. Welcome to Outlaw. You're both here to talk about legal oppression of Ice Watch in Minneapolis over the past two months. Can you both introduce yourselves briefly and your connection to the Twin Cities? I am Ray. I use they the pronouns. I'm from here. I grew up here and have lived most of my life in the Twin Cities. And I now live in Potterhorn Park. That's in South Minneapolis.

Starting point is 01:46:41 Site of high ice activity, the highest, I believe. I would think that is true and quite close to the sites of George Floyd as well as Renee Goods murders. My name is Clem. I've lived in the cities for like five years maybe now.

Starting point is 01:47:02 I grew up in the Southwest and I also live on the border of Powderhorn in the central neighborhood. So kind of yeah, halfway between where Renee was shot and where George Floyd was killed. So you both were arrested while you were doing ice watch in your car.

Starting point is 01:47:21 For people who are listening, this gets called commuting here. It can look different ways, but it often involves a hyper-local signal call with a dispatcher and commuters to be able to notify and dispatch rapid responders when ice is around. Commuters track ice vehicles, oftentimes following them around, which ice doesn't like. So my question for you two is, what kinds of tactics have you witnessed state-A-A-A-Vey-Svety. agents use to stop this kind of rapid response organizing? I feel like they have escalated and it always depends on the agent, but there's times where they'll just slow roll and drive like a normal person.

Starting point is 01:47:57 There's times where they'll run red lights, they'll break check you, they'll just like go and loops around the city to try and lose you. And then depending on how agro they are, they'll try and pull you over and intimidate you or they'll try and lead you to like a police station or have a sheriff pull you over and they've thrown people with like stalking charges and stuff like that. And yeah, we personally have been, we've had agents come up to our windows when we were commuting the two of us. We've had, we followed agents like all the way to northeast and a long time, probably like an hour. and then eventually downtown

Starting point is 01:48:43 they had sheriffs pull up on us and pull us over and tell us to stop following and then we have the other thing that I'm sure you want to talk to us about a lot of what we've been seeing is just this recklessness like speeding through red lights and not signaling just like a lot of like traffic violations

Starting point is 01:49:06 and then once you're pulled over just having your windows smashed in and like them using all these intimidation tactics, but like not necessarily detaining people. Yeah, and all of these vehicles don't necessarily look like a cop car. It's pretty rare for them to like actually turn on their lights and sirens. So when they're going through intersections as quote-unquote law enforcement, it's pretty rare for someone to see them. And there are times where we almost witnessed like T-bones of them just recklessly running a red light.

Starting point is 01:49:37 Yeah, all the time. There's been a good number of car accidents also involving their cars, right? Yeah, and like not even caused by community. They've just slipped on ice and ran into poles and then they tear gas observers who are heckling them because they don't know how to drive in Minnesota. Yeah, exactly. Let's turn to January 7, 26, the same day Renee Good was killed by ICE. You both were out commuting. Can you tell me about how that day started for you?

Starting point is 01:50:10 It was me picking up Clem and immediately there was like a suss car that like zoomed off and then Clem checked the plates and it was ice that we think was just waiting outside of the house. To intimidate? Unclear, but I mean it certainly felt that way. Had anything happened like that to you before Clem with them targeting the house? Wasn't there something that... I think at that point, because they've used the tactic, too, of when an observer is tailing them, they'll run your license plate and then drive you back to your house

Starting point is 01:50:50 that the car is registered to as an intimidation tactic, and they'll get out and take pictures of the house. But I think at that point, me and my roommates, that hadn't happened yet, but we had spent a lot of time at Whipple, like just observing the cars going in and out of the gates and trying to record all that data. And when you're there, there's just, like,

Starting point is 01:51:09 intimidation vehicles that will just, like, drive up right next your driver's side window and film you and take pictures. So it was certainly in some sort of database at that point. What's Whipple? Whipple is the federal building that is near Fort Snelling State Park, which is by the airport.

Starting point is 01:51:28 And that's where ICE has been operating out of. And it's the command headquarters for, like, the entire Upper Midwest. So Wisconsin and Minnesota, Minnesota, the Dakota is, I think Iowa too. Okay, so the day starts off, there's an ice agent outside your house, and you get in the car to start commuting. Tell me about what happens next.

Starting point is 01:51:50 The abandoned car. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the first thing I responded to is near Little Earth, which is like a gated community, but for, like, people who are, like, an urban reservation is what it calls itself. Mm-hmm. And there was a call of ice at a park nearby there, and we showed up, and there was just an abandoned car. And when I went and talked to someone on the street who was staying next to it,

Starting point is 01:52:17 basically explained the situation of ice rolled up on them, and they ran on foot and left the car, and they basically had to push the car out of the road, and then they ended up locking it because the person's documents. So I was staying with the car and calling tow truck companies that have offered. free toes for people who have gone injected. And so we were probably there for like, I don't know, more than 30 minutes. And I think as that was happening is when Renee was shot, so neither of us were like on the call or looking at chats or anything. And we like went home for a break and that's when we heard the news of that.

Starting point is 01:52:57 Yeah. Because I live really close by to there. And there was a lot of swirling information. so people saying, you know, someone was shot and then at first people being like, come down to this area. And then, you know, very shortly after people being like, it's totally cordoned off, don't come down. There's also enough observers.

Starting point is 01:53:17 And we need people to be out there doing this still because like we can't invest all of our resources into this one thing that's happening. And probably within the hours when we got the message that was saying that there were vehicles staged in a parking lot down the street. So we drove down there. And there were already observers, people in cars, and on foot, probably around 30 people. And it was kind of a standoff of these vehicles, probably around five-ish vehicles. And then people blowing whistles, honking horns. and so Clem and I were there in the car doing that. So you see the news that Renee was killed

Starting point is 01:54:10 and for doing exactly what you were doing, driving around your neighborhood to look out for your neighbors and you get back in the car and you keep going. Yeah, that didn't stop us. I mean, if anything, it made us feel like we need to be out here because they're not stopping. We're not going to stop either. So you said you arrive at the next scene.

Starting point is 01:54:34 Where are you and what is ICE doing there? Yeah, it's the Dollar Tree parking lot, which is like on Lake Street and the uptown area. And yeah, there's five vehicles, presumably staging, because what we've been calling it, where they're just like parked planning what they're going to do next. And there weren't any agents out of car. It was just a bunch of cars sitting there that we knew were ice.

Starting point is 01:55:01 And a bunch of observers were responding. We were just in the parking lot. They could still have driven around us. There was room on either side of our car that they could have driven past us. And then in addition to that, they could have driven around. Like there were just several options for them to get around us.

Starting point is 01:55:21 At that point, I think some agents got out and were like, move your vehicle, move your vehicle. And one of the cars, this like huge SUV, rammed the back of my car to get it out of the way while you were in it? We were in it, yeah. And I think at that point, Clem turned to me and was like, they're going to smash out

Starting point is 01:55:44 the windows. And I was like, yep. And so at that point, I think we were both prepared for what was going to happen. I guess, though, also, I mean, once they smash the back of the car, I was thinking, like, okay, they got us out of the way. Like, that might be it. But then, so the car's out of the way, but they all got out of their vehicles. They first maced the windows.

Starting point is 01:56:09 So it's like they have a dye in it. It's like a bright orange. And they maced the passenger, the driver, and the windshield windows. And then they came around on, they smashed both of the passenger and driver windows. And then sprayed bare mace through. Clemside into both of our faces. Right before they smashed the windows, we grabbed each other's hands and we just held hands as it was happening around us. And then I saw that bright orange mace coming from the passenger

Starting point is 01:56:53 window. So they sprayed it directly in Clem's face and then they reached over and sprayed me. And they were able to open up the doors with the window smashed. And they dragged us out and he punched me in the jaw, like in the lip, really, while they cuffed me. And they used pain compliance. It's like a, I mean, it's torture. So they've pulled my wrist up or my hand up against my arm with the cuff some. and then hold me, or like up against the vehicle where I was detained separately from Clem. But Clem, you can talk about what happened to you at that same time.

Starting point is 01:57:43 Yeah, so I could feel the door open, and then they tried to yank me out and undo my seatbelt, and I was holding on to the seatbelt, and eventually they got that undone. And I was just like trying to hold on to you as tired as I could. until they were able to break that grasp. And then two agents pulled me out and slammed me on the floor and got on top of me and put me in cuffs and I'm still just having my eyes closed so the mace doesn't get in them. And yeah, from there I fell a few times and kept just being dead weight. And they kept trying to take me to cars, but they didn't know which car they were supposed to go to

Starting point is 01:58:28 where they would go to a car and they didn't have the keys for it. So I just kept getting walked in circles, not seeing what was going on and hearing the confusion of all of them until eventually I got put in the back of a car and you got put into a separate car. On the way there, I mostly just was focused on breathing through the pain

Starting point is 01:58:51 on the way to Whipple. And what was so disgusting to me, I mean, it was so fresh in our mind. that Renee had just been killed, right? And I'm hearing them singing on the radio. There was one agent who was singing like, I got a puck, got a pocket for the sunshine, or something like that.

Starting point is 01:59:10 And a lot of laughter. I remember the phrases, fucking Somalis. And later, one of them complaining about all these fucking whistles. And I remember thinking, like, oh, fuck yeah. They're working. and it wasn't too long before we arrived in the garage. It's a giant garage where they process people.

Starting point is 01:59:41 And there were mostly agents, vehicles, and people have been detained, like a line of people who have been detained. Yeah. I just want to point a couple of things out in what you both have said. That's a little bit different than we enjoy. normally see in protests related legal oppression, which is one detention of people who are citizen protesters or just people arrested for protest activity by ICE, by immigration enforcement, or by federal agents in general. That's usually something that is done by state or local law

Starting point is 02:00:17 enforcement cops or sheriffs, and people are taken to the local jail for processing. But here what's happening is you're being taken to Whipple, which is the ICE detention center. We're all non-citizens detained by ICE for immigration reasons are also taken and processed, but you're also being brought there, so you're getting a window into ICE operations, and you're taken into a place that people also normally don't have access to. It's a pretty high security building that they don't like people from the outside, inside, but there you are in the garage. Right. Yeah, so we're on our knees, and at one point, I commented, on how young the people looked that were holding Clem.

Starting point is 02:01:02 And they pulled us apart. And they brought me to the opposite side of the garage. And they're still using the pain compliance. They're filming me the whole time. There was just a bunch of agents that were filming me and like three guys that were like on me. And I said to them, I said, make it hurt daddy. And I was being mouthy and just,

Starting point is 02:01:27 this one guy in particular seemed really freaked out by that. And he pushed me to the ground with my face to the floor. And he said, you like the dirt queer? And my reaction for a lot of the time that this was happening as I just was laughing and laughing. And I said, yeah, I fucking love the dirt. Like, I love the dirt more than anything. And I don't know how long I was like that,

Starting point is 02:01:54 but they kept me on the ground. and then eventually brought us in to bring us to the cells. We walked past this central command hub with all of these people who were working in this so-called Metro Surge operation. And then on the left were cells of people who had been detained. I think we passed at least five cells from what we could see, and they were filled just like wall-to-wall of black and brown people that yeah and like one toilet in there so probably at least like two or three hundred people in there

Starting point is 02:02:30 the desolation sticks with me and they led me to a separate cell than Clem and this other person that we were detained with and these were seemingly like the remaining cells that were available in the in the whole area because i mean it was just full up like they were like completely at capacity with the number of people they've abducted. Clem and I were in there for hours with mace in our eyes and like no relief from that. And I remember just laying on the ground and an agent coming in pretty soon after being an asshole and he was like, we've got gourmet potato and chicken and Brussels sprouts or something. And he hands me this like little plastic container.

Starting point is 02:03:33 with like this just this white paste or like just nasty. Yeah, it was just like a microwave meal, goop. Goop, just disgusting goop. But we were in there for a while before being taken back. And I think they took me back first. And I refuse to say anything without a lawyer, obviously. They hand me a piece of paper. And after reading me or my rights,

Starting point is 02:04:03 And they said, actually, we need you to read these back to us to confirm that you speak English and understand English. And I was like, weird, but okay. So I start to read it, and it's all pretty normal. And then I get to a paragraph that says something to the effect of like knowing these rights, I wave my rights. So I was being tricked into waiving my rights, which I thought I was going crazy. I did not understand at the time. And I stopped halfway through the sentence, and I read it over and over and over, trying to make sense of it. And I said to them, I was like, I don't understand what I'm being asked to read.

Starting point is 02:04:41 I'm not going to keep reading this. And they were like, that's okay, we have what we need. And they took it back. And then I got a phone call, Clemdenop. We got taken into the interrogation room, and it was like to Homeland Security. I don't know, like detective or whatever. but they like opened it with saying like I know this is all like can be a lot right now

Starting point is 02:05:04 so feel free to just like let it loose in this room and I just like kind of looked at them like what are you talking about? Like it's it was jarring to go from dealing with a month of seeing only these people in masks and just like as this like horrible monstrossthia of like a fascist and then being inside of there

Starting point is 02:05:27 and like seeing that kind of Mansetter of all those people working on the computers, like making this whole thing work. And then all these detectives who like think they're detached from it and think that they're not a part of what's going down on the streets right now just because they're working inside the building. And yeah, so the same thing happened. They tried to ask me questions.

Starting point is 02:05:47 And I said I wouldn't say anything without a lawyer president. And I asked for a phone call. And they did the same thing with the rights where they were going to read them to me and then the other detectives said actually we don't need to do that and so one of them just left for a bit and so i was just like left in the room with the like assistant detective and he just like asked me some how's your day going question and i just kind of dead stared him for like 20 minutes which felt pretty good because he was very uncomfortable and kept it just like avoiding eye contact and i don't know it's a small amount of power you can have when you're in a

Starting point is 02:06:28 and I got taken back to my room and tried the intercom and asked if I could get a phone call. And they said, I'll get a phone call after booking. So I was pretty worried about what was going to happen. Eventually, they said they had a lawyer present and, yeah, two real cool lawyers were there that we know and our friends with. And they explained that we'd be out pretty shortly. And yeah, and then we were able to get out and go home. But I feel really haunted by the fact that we were in there for maybe a handful of hours. And of course, there are all these people that are stuck there that aren't going to be able to go home the way we did.

Starting point is 02:07:21 and then I took the most painful shower of my life because the water just I did the cold water thing and my lawyer friend had warned me about it was like you know try not to get it in your bits but I totally did and it was excruciating one of the things we talk about on the show is how to counteract the chilling effects

Starting point is 02:07:51 effective repression and just the trauma of a day like this that having violent interactions with law enforcement can cause. And I really appreciate you both sharing and going back into this experience that happened now almost exactly a month ago from when we're recording today. I'm curious if you have thoughts on what you've learned and moving through this experience, lessons you've learned that you'd want others to know about, about how to move through something like this and keep getting out there, as I know you both have? I don't really know how to move through it, but it's, yeah, I feel like it still lives in my body,

Starting point is 02:08:37 and that fear has definitely changed me, but it's been nice to have friends and community, and there's been a lot of, like, free sort of, like, bodywork and I tried acupuncture for the first time, which was really nice. Yeah, just having people that have your back and knowing that, like, you're not alone in this. Like, since we've been arrested, there's been hundreds of people in the same exact boat as us. And, yeah, it feels good to know we're not an outlier here. Unapologetically, myself.

Starting point is 02:09:18 Like most anti-ice protesters arrested here during the surge, Clem and Ray were released pending charges. But the legal landscape is rapidly shifting. At least 30 out of the 35 federal cases from the past two months were charged retroactively in the past few weeks. To give you a sense of how these cases might unfold and what it's like to face these charges, you'll hear from two Minneapolis-based anti-ice protesters facing criminal. charges for responding to a raid at Takaria Las Quattros Milpas that took place back on June 3rd, 2025. Isabel Lopez faces federal charges, and Lucy faces state charges from that day. Their June cases are still open today, and Lucy also caught federal charges after responding

Starting point is 02:10:08 to an ice raid that took place during Operation Metro Surge. Welcome, Isabel and Mesavel. Lucy, we're going to talk today about legal oppression you both are experiencing for protesting ICE in Minneapolis. But before we even start that conversation, can you both introduce yourselves your connection to the Twin Cities and share a little bit about who you are outside of the topic of today's conversation? Isabel, we can start with you. Hi, my name isabella. Hi, my name isabella. I'm a community, I don't know, organizer, helper and I'm also spoken word poet. I've been writing and doing performances here in the Twin

Starting point is 02:10:54 Cities for like since like 2020 with the whole George Floyd thing. Yeah. And I've also done other organizing when it comes to the climate justice movement and also indigenous rights. I have Sapotec bin Zaraises and like that's just important for me. So yeah, but I was born in Chicago, raised here in the Twin Cities. Hi, Lucy. I've been in Minneapolis. I've been in Minneapolis. since, I don't know, the early 2010s, but I lived in Minnesota forever. I mean, I've been in and out, but I feed people. I'm a loud bitch.

Starting point is 02:11:32 I'll make noises. I make songs. Make good trouble. Okay, so you were both arrested and charged after a multi-agency raid that took place back on June 3, 2025, at Las Cotro Milpa, the Mexican talkeria, in South Minneapolis. Officials still say that it was not an ice raid and that they were executing a warrant for drug trafficking,

Starting point is 02:11:56 but ICE agents were confirmed on site alongside 10 other federal agencies and local cops, and the owner of the talkeria ended up in ICE detention. The raid and response went pretty viral. The operation was heavily militarized and hundreds of neighbors turned out in protest. Issa, you were charged with three counts of obstructing, impeding or assaulting a federal officer, and a fourth count of impeding a federal investigation. And Lucy, you're facing state-level charges from that day and federal assault charges. I'd love to hear from you both a little bit about your experiences, getting arrested and catching

Starting point is 02:12:35 charges. What do you want people to know about what that experience was like? Yeah, so I wasn't arrested until like three or four days later, because that happened on June 3rd, and then I was arrested on June 9th. It felt very planned and just like a pop-it show. I remember, I think it was the day after two senators from the house here in Minnesota were shot. And Georgia Fort, you know, was a really close community friend of mine. We're both from the east side. And she called me to do an interview.

Starting point is 02:13:09 I was kind of unsure about it. But she just assured me that she just wanted to hear my story. And, yeah, I didn't really think much of that. of it. And so then I went, I did the interview. I was still very shaken up about what happened that day. By around like four, I think, or like three, I was coming out. And by that time, in downtown, there's not a lot of things going on in St. Paul. It's kind of a dead city by that time. And so as I was coming out, that's when four officers came from behind me and arrested me and pushed me to the ground. And my shoulder hit the concrete. And I started bleeding.

Starting point is 02:13:47 And they took me in the black SUV. And they waited there for a second. And, you know, just when Georgia came out and saw everything that was happening and started recording. And, you know, from there, let the community know about what happened. And so after that, that's when I kind of started realizing what this administration is trying to do. And it felt very orchestrated. It felt very calculated. Even after, especially after there was a lot of news about my arrest and adding my face to

Starting point is 02:14:24 this whole drug rate and my case to it. So yeah, I know other people were arrested, but my arrest felt very like intentional and calculated and kind of racist. This is an abuse of power and this isn't okay. Like I don't care who you are. I don't care how you see things. Like I'm like barely not even 5'3, 5'2. And, you know, these men that were, that are, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't were huge felt the need to tackle me. This is all allegedly, right? But at the same time, I think that I want people to understand that they can make their own calls and own judgment and how, like, this justice system isn't that right now at all.

Starting point is 02:15:02 It's repression. Am I also remembering correctly that I maybe had seen you post a video on Instagram about that raid? Because I feel like in my impression, it also felt like maybe retaliation for you speaking out. Yeah. Definitely. Your case feels important for people to know about, especially in the past two weeks here in Minneapolis, 28 people have been charged with assault on a federal officer and are facing federal charges now.

Starting point is 02:15:32 There was a handful before that, but we've just seen a massive spike of people who were charged after being released pending charges. So your case does feel like this test case that's being looked to is how are they going to handle this? and what's going to happen. So I appreciate you talking about it. I would love to turn to you, Lucy, and hear a little bit about what you're facing and what your experience has been like. I think they charged me with assault,

Starting point is 02:16:08 and then they downgraded it to, like, less degree assault because it was ridiculous. But yeah, they had, like, six cops tackle me, and my shoulder's never been the same. But that was in June. And then in another instance, I also have charges. for assaulting a federal officer.

Starting point is 02:16:28 Seems like they just charge everyone. And like all of these legal observers are also getting doxed by the AG. They're trying to raise the stakes of resisting the administration as much as possible because it is a popular movement. It's like generally popular to hate ICE,

Starting point is 02:16:45 but they're trying to make it as expensive and as irrevocably life-destroying for U.S. citizens as it is for people who, who aren't U.S. citizens. I think it's super important to highlight the ways in which these targeted political prosecutions are being used to raise the stakes of showing up to defend your community from abduction, from death, from surveillance and intimidation and fascist violence.

Starting point is 02:17:17 Do you know who else were arrested that day? There was two people arrested on June 3rd. They were both arrested in the same interaction with a police officer. A young woman was standing in front of a police vehicle, and an officer approached her super rapidly. And then someone approached that officer. And from the video, it seems like that person ripped off a thin blue line lapel velcro from the officer. And then that officer proceeded to assault that person. And then that person was accused of assault.

Starting point is 02:17:51 And then my federal charges, the government has motioned to dismiss them. but we are motioning to dismiss them with prejudice. And during that interaction, I can't really speak to what happened between me and federal officers, but a pregnant woman was assaulted by federal officers. People were tased, people were hit with batons, and that woman had like a ice agent on top of her

Starting point is 02:18:19 for like, I don't know, a half hour. People said that she miscarried. She was pregnant. Everyone was saying she was pregnant. She was dragged by one arm between the legs of the ICE officer. They said that she spray-painted a car, and that was the reason for the arrest. They also said that there was no proof of that either. And that incident was one of the first immigration operations in the surge,

Starting point is 02:18:47 or one of the earlier ones that went pretty viral. There was a lot of coverage. It was a huge raid, big community turnout. It was also like ICE was on the wrong block and they were in a Somali neighborhood and people were mad and people were showing up and not letting them get away with it. Also, I think there was a lot of response my understanding was to ICE having their knee on this pregnant person's back for such a long period of time. From what I've seen in the complaint for that day for your case, which is a public record,

Starting point is 02:19:19 and I'm not asking you to speak to whether or not it's true or anything. thing about it, but part of what you're being charged with is, I believe, de-arresting that person, the pregnant person, while they were dragging her. And as a result, you got assault on a federal officer charges. So just some context for people listening for the case as we're following it, those are the public allegations that the government has made. But it was one of the earliest federal cases during the surge and one of the earlier assault cases of this kind. So interesting to hear that it looks like it's headed for a dismissal and exciting for you that that is the case.

Starting point is 02:20:03 Isabel, there's been community mobilization to support you starting back in June. Could you speak to what's been effective about that and what you've learned fighting these charges related to this political prosecution? I mean, in the grand scheme of things, I think that there's just been so much repression when it comes to just, you know, the brown community. We've lost Mercado Central, which is a really dope place on Lake Street right across the street from like where it happened from Los 4,000 Paz. You know, it's like raising funds so that, you know, close. And, you know, I think I think the Star Tribune really stuff for Latino businesses, brown businesses, they've lost like $46 million this past month. So what I'm trying to say with that is that my community is very much on the scarcity.

Starting point is 02:20:55 You know, like it's almost like we're being dragged to the point. And so when my community showed up for me that day, like it just showed for me like how resilient we are and how much like it's scary. But we can't keep having other people in our communities disappear, you know, people that we can't afford. And for my case, because I'm a U.S. citizen, I feel very very. very, like, responsible and very, like, wanting to, like, being present in community, because I think that's really what I can do. I can't really, like, do a lot because of the fear that, like, if I come into certain spaces, am I being watched? You know, and they've kind of shown, like, hinting, having an eye on me, basically throughout this. But, like, you know, being present

Starting point is 02:21:41 with community and being there when, you know, for organizing and knowing, you know, your rights and things like that, I think has helped a lot of people in my community to, one, be a lot more careful, but two, know that, like, what we're going up against and how it's a way of survival to keep going and, like, you know, to have our right speed to at least grow during these times. And we've had, like, observer trainings. We've had a lot of low-key, smaller trainings. We're not, like, trying to tell too many people about it for the same reason. And from my case, in particular, it's been really hard just because a lot of people are scared and a lot of people are very intimidating to speak out and, you know, advocate for what's been going on in my case

Starting point is 02:22:30 because, you know, they want us to keep having this scarcity mentality and, you know, being afraid of like what's to happen, what's to come. So for me, it's just been really important for me to, like, be with community, to be with people and, like, to share my story in the small ways that I can. And, you know, we've been doing phone baking campaigns and also just writing in letters. They have a radar on me for sure and know, like, or where I'm at, where I stand. But I also know that I have a really big community behind me. And I know it's not just about me. It's about the fact that it's bigger about what could happen to somebody else in our community. And it's been hard, but I think it's, you know, it's important for us to know that, like,

Starting point is 02:23:13 you know, we can keep pushing and like be together in community despite all this. And so, yeah, it has been kind of hard, especially with the surge. It got even more messy, you know, just with a lot of people trying their buzz to keep their head above the water and helping the families that they can. Because a lot of families haven't been able to leave their house. When you say we've been hosting trainings, are you referring to your support committee? You've been doing like events that are joint raising awareness about your kids. case and also helping community get trained up. Is that what you mean? Oh yeah. I think, I mean, it's one and the same. I feel like the people that I'm working with, they work and do a lot of

Starting point is 02:23:54 grassroots things in the community. And so I know me just showing up to those trainings and just talking about my case like that. That helps a lot. So it's like that. And we've done a couple events here and there where we talk about immigration. We did one in June or no, July, I think. And like we still have said to do more things with community to just know that like you know we're all here in it but it has been very nerve-wracking it's been really hard just because like i don't know who's watching i don't know who's in the room i don't know who i can trust but i know i'm not alone so that's that's the best part about it so yeah there's so much intentional isolation of people facing charges that's so much of how repression works is to isolate people make them scared to go be in community and do important work so

Starting point is 02:24:39 thanks for continuing to show up. It's cool to hear you speak to both navigating the fear and continuing to show up where you can. Yeah. I'd love to hear you both speak a little bit more. I know you just spoke about this a little bit, Isabel, but what it's been like navigating these cases amidst the past couple months of the surge here in the Twin Cities, it's a pretty unique moment to also have these pretty high stakes cases going on. Lucy, if you want to start. It just sucks. I mean, there's lots of ways of doing things, but like, I don't want to be afraid that I need to call my pretrial release person every time a cop talks to me. Like, I don't know. Like, I, not that I interact with cops all the time, but I'm in Minneapolis and, like, you keep talking

Starting point is 02:25:31 to the probation guy about this. I'm like, you know, if a cop drives by me, is that a police interaction? If I'm on the street and the fucking feds are in the street in front of my house is that a police interaction like it just makes you so stressed out like Renee good was shot in front of me and it's like normally I'm not the kind of person that runs away from a situation like that I'm like would go towards where what happened to like make sure people are okay or like see if there's anything I can do and in that situation I was like like, what if I just am going to go to jail, like, for trying to, like, do something? So it's just, like, it's just contrary to my instincts that if I see someone getting brutalized

Starting point is 02:26:21 in the street, or, like, they say you can go to a protest, but that's just what repression is, you know? They come into your house and they look in every single room, you know, that they say that you need to go and do drug tests and that you can't have. a firearm and they wanted me to have 24-7 monitoring. I don't know if you had that kind of shit, but it's just like, this shit's insane. Like, and it's over fucking nothing. And so that's why, like, I see people on the internet being like, oh, but like all those

Starting point is 02:26:52 charges get dropped or whatever. I was like, then fuck you. Like, you never dealt with this. Like, it doesn't matter if the charges get dropped. I'm going to try and apply to fucking target to be a cashier. And then they're going to be like, actually, you have an active case. I tried to work at a theater and they were like, can you come explain what happened here?

Starting point is 02:27:10 It doesn't matter if you end up going to jail. Yeah, going to jail sucks. But repression is like it's the thing in and of itself. The cruelty is the point. I want to hear from you to Isabel. I just want to say for people listening that what Lucy's talking about are release conditions. So when the case is initiated against you, the government could argue that you should be held in detention while the case is ongoing

Starting point is 02:27:33 or they could ask for conditions of release. And those are conditions that are enforced by a pretrial probation officer-like person who might come to visit your house or you have to call when you have cop interactions or who facilitates drug testing depending on what your conditions are. So just some background on that for anyone who's unfamiliar. Yeah, I think Lucy kind of said it best was like, you're really questioning your instincts. you're questioning, like, what can you do? And I've tried my best to be as creative as I can

Starting point is 02:28:11 with it. But yeah, it's so hard because I'm finding myself having to mobilize in a different way and, like, show up the community. So I've kind of pivoted to art. Yeah, doing things when it comes to like screen printing and just, again, just showing up in community and just try to play face or be faced, like be real, you know, be with community. But yeah, it has been really hard because, again, you never really know what you can and cannot say. Like, the other day, I had a really good friend that I made an photograph for me talking about explaining my case and things like that. You know, I can't really post too much about my case. People started tagging me in it.

Starting point is 02:28:51 I tried resharing one of it. I only shared like one of, reshared one of the tags. And then I tried resharing another tag that kind of explain what, do to help with my case. And like Instagram didn't let me post it. You know, these are, this is like minor shit. Like this isn't like that big of a deal. But it's also just like, okay, like, yeah, they want to make sure that you're not being seated or heard. And I'm pretty fortunate to have a job where like they're paying me to do community work and they have known me. So like I'm, I feel really lucky. At the same time, it's also just been.

Starting point is 02:29:28 really hard because like, you know, some people are more reluctant to have me in the room when it comes to like organizing or doing certain things because of that, because like, you know, of where my case stands. And some people have like, you know, actually kind of walked away from being my friend because, you know, that they were also there that day on June 3rd and just also kind of being afraid about what would happen to them. But on the other side of that, you know, there's also been friends that are like, I'm going to be here. I'm down. Like, don't like, don't like, don't you it, you know, which has been great. Yeah, don't ditch your friends.

Starting point is 02:30:04 Like, I had, like, my roommate being like, I'm gonna, I gotta leave. Like, I'm gonna dip. And people being weird to you. And it's just like, I don't know, maybe you just should be better about your, like, security in general. Because, like, sooner or later, we're all gonna have charges. I don't know. Maybe it's not gonna be that bad.

Starting point is 02:30:25 But we're all domestic terrorists. in Minnesota now. Fuck, I mean, as per I, you know, making a list. And I don't know. They can't jail everybody. It's just been really hard navigating. I guess like the sense of morality that comes with it because it's like for me, and I feel like, you know, Lucy can relate to this is that like you act on the things

Starting point is 02:30:50 that you believe in. You act on the things that you know is worth participating in. And now this administration. is, you know, gaslighted. I don't even think gaslighting is a right word. I think it's just like imposing a lie of just like what is right and what is wrong. And seeing everybody also just being very gaslit and having, you know, the news, having the certain narrative of like what is right, what is wrong, what has been said, what has not been said, what really happened, what didn't happen.

Starting point is 02:31:18 And also just arresting independent journalist. I think just goes to show how much constitution has not been constituted. Like the human rights that we believed and we thought that we have are no more. So it's like what goes and what doesn't go, you know? And I think that for me, the only real hope I have is like community and like creativity. Because it's like people have shown up for me because I've been showing up since like 2020. So like how can we inspire a sense of like a sense of hope and spirit to keep going? how can we keep have people know that there is hope at the end that you know that there can be

Starting point is 02:32:02 another side that right now what we're seeing is just another world unfolding and the only way that we can really understand that new world is when we understand the truth that we've been walking on and so my friends have been so good to me and some of them have been you know they've made like graphics and really cool like shirts um with my face on it um just a way to like you know welcome me home and things like that. And creating different images of what this new world can be. And one thing that I did with some of the NDN collective, we made this really dope graphic that says motherline on it.

Starting point is 02:32:38 And it's all the Americas having roots from the global south. And being Zapotec has been really, like, so key for me to know that like I have every right to be here. Like a lot of the legitimacy that is constituted, quote unquote, for me, that doesn't come from, for me, that's not my truth of, like, why I move and why I believe to do is right. To me, I do what is right because of the history that I come from, because of, like, you know, who my dad is and, like, the people that I know that I come from. You know, I'm not, like, native to the Northern Plains, but I do have friends that are, and I do respect and love them so much where I want to see the traditions be fully and thrive. And I know that my power and my liberty

Starting point is 02:33:22 is tied with theirs. And I know that we have every right to be here from the people that are from the global south as well because of the fact that we haven't been able to fully thrive in the motherland. We haven't been fully thrived in all the Americas. And a lot of people don't want to immigrate. A lot of people don't want to migrate. They don't want to leave their motherland. But I know that we have built homes here. We have built communities here. And I think that for me that that's the other side of it, is that we can thrive, then that we can be in this place together, that we have every right to.

Starting point is 02:33:57 Like, bad puny sitting in this concert last night. Together, we are America, Abayela. So, yeah. I also just want to ask what support asks you have for listeners, either for your defense campaigns or for anti-ice organizing more broadly. Yeah. For me, we're having people call in.

Starting point is 02:34:21 to Daniel Rose, to drop the charges, and to send in letters. That's our community ask and also to donate to the GoFundMe. Yeah, I'm finding myself needing more support when it comes to just getting people on the side and just, yeah, getting people also sustained through the movement as well through that. So, yeah, donate to my gone fund me and also if they can send them a letter, call in. and it'll yeah. I'll just say, yeah, talk to everyone you can.

Starting point is 02:34:55 Talk to your neighbors. Talk to your relatives. It should be impossible for them to convict anything in Minnesota because no jury is sympathetic with these people. And the only way that happens is if there's a broad understanding of the violence that is being perpetuated in our communities and a broad support of those that are resisting it. Well, I know you both have shared the importance

Starting point is 02:35:19 of creative work for you. Isabel, do you have a poem you'd like to read or anything you want to share? Yeah, I can read a poem real quick. Since I can't really speak much about what happened that day, I wrote this. When I walked outside, I saw eyes staring back at me, cold presence, stirring an earthquake in my body. Do I freeze or do I run? I ask myself, do my parents have the time to ask themselves this when they left the

Starting point is 02:35:45 motherland? If I run, I might slip into its brute arms and be. caught by its cages. If I freeze, will it drown out all the warmth of my family lit inside of me? Will the cuffing freeze the southern sun in my blood veins just to be as numb as them? The cold thrives in control. The order of ignorance can thrive in an unconscious and vulnerable pride. I never thought their hands could be as brown as mine, as young as mine, as desperate for safety that I fold into another version of insanity. The wrong ice is melting

Starting point is 02:36:15 and the warmth of brown and black bodies are freezing. Can I walk back into the pattern of survival? My lineage taught me to flourish instead of freezing in the numbing of society. Wow. Thank you. Does that have a name? Yeah, it's ice. Or ice freeze. Something like that.

Starting point is 02:36:34 Maybe I still am. Unapologetically. We recorded this episode in the first half of February in 26. It's March now, so here's a couple updates. Since recording, eight of the federal defendants have had their charges dismissed, and many have been offered misdemeanor deals. We also now know that there are over 100 protesters facing state-level charges, mostly misdemeanors.

Starting point is 02:37:04 The aftermath of repression in the form of criminal cases from this time will likely continue for years, if not decades to come. And another update, thousands of agents have left the Twin Cities. I get to see my neighbors out of their houses a little more often now. But daily life is still colored by ongoing abductions,

Starting point is 02:37:27 disappeared family members, and shockwaves of state violence that have hit our migrant neighbors. I know I said it in the beginning, but just to say it to close, as much as there is devastating violence and terror happening here. There's incredibly magnificent resistance and community connection happening. Every single day, neighbors are showing up and stopping abductions.

Starting point is 02:37:55 They're watching people get killed in the street for doing it, and they're showing up the next day to continue. There's a kind of fearlessness and a kind of love that is in this community that I've never seen anywhere else. So as much as things are horrible, things are also beautiful. And I want you to know that. The theme music you heard in this episode was the song Star by Tufa One, a Dakota and Buriqua artist based out of Minneapolis. Check out their other music. If you liked this episode, check out the show Outlaw, wherever you get your podcasts. Throw us a rate, review, and follow OutlawPod on Instagram and Blue Sky. To close the episode, here's a song written in Minneapolis during the surge.

Starting point is 02:38:49 I think it captures some feeling of being here. Never. Someone back from the dead. Someone back from the dead. Me and women are looking for more. More out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are at them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark.

Starting point is 02:40:43 And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about a Traology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.

Starting point is 02:41:18 Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic, Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional. approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chartside view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen.

Starting point is 02:41:58 Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagageddon change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory.

Starting point is 02:42:36 I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on No Grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishap, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good people. What's up? What's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actors and producer Jamie Lee Curtis ahead of the release of her new thriller series, Scarpetta. I can honestly say I've never done an interview like that before.

Starting point is 02:43:23 You know, at one point I shut my laptop down. And we just started chatting as old friends, recent Oscar recipient. So we have some commonality there. I predicted that, by the way. And you said these words to me. dust off your mantle. Yes. And I looked at you and I said, what?

Starting point is 02:43:44 And you said, dust off your mantle. And then I left and that was it. And then when all of that happened, I remember the next morning, I think I wanted to like write you and go, how did you know? Listen to the Questlove show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Iqadap and hear a podcast. about tariffs and how to justify them. I am your host, Mia Wong, and today we are talking about tariffs, the Supreme Court ruling, and how Trump is manufacturing a crisis to justify the next set of tariffs that he has imposed. Oh, boy. So, all right, to recap our last tariff segment,

Starting point is 02:44:36 so people understand what I'm talking about when I talk about the Supreme Court ruling from a few weeks ago. So Trump had been claiming the ability to do tariffs under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, an act that famously never says the word tariff. And the Supreme Court was like, no, actually, the International Economic Powers Act does not give you the power to levy tariffs, a thing that it does not say that you can do. So Trump got extremely mad about this, and he imposed a 10% tariff across the board using a different law as he said he was going to do. Now, this 10% across the board tariff

Starting point is 02:45:14 was run through Section 122 of the Trade Act of 1974. We're going to get into that. Okay, so he imposes a 10% tariff using this, like, different authority from Section 122. And the next day, he goes, I'm going to raise the tariff rate to 15%.

Starting point is 02:45:31 And this is the tariff rate on the entire world. But then he just forgot to do it because he got distracted by, I think, invading Iran. So he has never actually raised the tariff rate to 15%, which he said that he had done. So it's now just at 10% on the entire world instead of, you know, all of the sort of individual country tariffs that have been in place before.

Starting point is 02:45:54 And that's sort of the focus of today's episode is about these tariffs, because these tariffs are already being challenged in court. And I think that that challenge has a very, very good chance of winning fairly easily. And the reason that those tariffs have a very good chance of being overturned by the courts is that unlike the IEPA tariffs that he was using where he was claiming illegally the authority to just do whatever he wanted. This is why you would wake up in the morning and there's like 100% tariff on China, like 700% tariff on Vietnam, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Trump was claiming that that act let him do whatever he wanted. It did not. the court found that he did not, but that was how he was using tariffs,

Starting point is 02:46:40 and it was the basis of how he was using tariffs for diplomacy, right? You know, he would put a tariff on someone at random claiming this power, and then he would, like, enter negotiations with them. And he can't do that anymore. Now, what he's done in its place is, again, imposed this tariffs using Section 122 of the Trade Act. Now, this authority is very, very different than the authority Trump was claiming before. I'm just going to read it because it mostly explains itself.

Starting point is 02:47:08 Do not worry about the international payment problems or balanced payments deficit, but it mentions at the beginning. We're going to go over that in a second. What's important for our purposes here is that in order to put tariffs into effect, quote, whenever fundamental international payment problems require special import measures to restrict imports, one, to deal with large and serious United States balance of payments deficits. Two, to prevent an imminent and significant depreciation of the dollar in foreign exchange markets, or three, to cooperate with other countries in correcting an international balance of

Starting point is 02:47:44 payments disequilibrium, the president shall proclaim for a period not exceeding 150 days, unless such a period is extended by an act of Congress, a temporary surcharge not to exceed 15% ad of lorum in the form of duties, in addition to those already opposed, if any, on articles imported into the U.S. Okay, so let's look at the limits first, right? Instead of any rate of tariff on any country, which is what Trump had been doing, Section 122 only lets you set an up to 15% tariff on every country in the world, and it only lasts for 150 days unless Congress votes to approve it.

Starting point is 02:48:23 This sets up a giant fight in Congress that Trump is not going to win. Now, we may never get to that point because the same right-wing legal group who funded the lawsuit that overturned the IEPA stuff is going after Section 122. And they're going to win. Now, they're going to win because Section 122 has literally never been implemented before. The tariffs specifically never been implemented. And there is a reason for that. And the reason is that to even deploy Section 122 tariffs in the first place,

Starting point is 02:48:54 you need, quote, fundamental international payment problems, one, to deal with large and serious United States balance of payments deficits to the print dollar depreciation and cooperation with other countries to correct international balance of payments this equilibrium. So those are very specific conditions.

Starting point is 02:49:13 What does that mean? What does it mean for there to be a problem with balance of payments? This requires us to understand what the fuck balance of payments is and it is here where I am fulfilling my promise from that executive sort of episode where I said I would explain it

Starting point is 02:49:26 in the full episode. All right, we're doing it. And oh, fucking boy, are you in for it? Because Jesus Christ, oh my God. Holy shit, this stuff is annoyingly convoluted. But it is also extremely important to how the global economy functions, how it's changed. And, you know, it's not really relevant for the U.S. at all for reasons we will get into, but it is extremely relevant for the economies of a bunch of developing countries.

Starting point is 02:49:53 So, okay, let's start off with balance of payments. So what is the balance of payments? I'm just going to start off by quoting the St. Louis Federal Reserve. Balance of payments, quote, is a summary of all the transactions involving goods, services, and investments between one country and all other countries over a given time. Any transaction that causes money to flow into a country is a credit to balance payment accounts, and any transaction that causes flows out is a debit. So this is a record of literally every purchase in capital movement that goes in and out of a country, right?

Starting point is 02:50:31 So it's goods, services, debt payments, and things can either be credits or debits. As the Fed explains, you know, things that are debits, right, things that, like, make your account go lower, is, you know, debt payments, capital transfer payments, like buying imports. If you were importing stuff from China, that is a debit. And then there are things that are credits to make account go up. So that's other countries paying for exports, capital transfer receipts, and, you know, financial assets. That's other countries paying for your exports. So this is tracked in, like, two accounts.

Starting point is 02:51:04 There's a capital and finances account. I'm just going to call it the capital account because that's the most common name for and it's shorter. So there's the capital account that is all movement of capital in and out of the country, and then there's a current account, which is like a trade record of all goods and services. technically there's also stuff from like interest from an investment goes there but we don't really care about that. For our purposes, the current account is the account that's like trade and then there's a capital account which is the account that's all of the capital moving in and

Starting point is 02:51:32 out. Now importantly, these two accounts, right? These two accounts compose balance of trade, right? This record has two accounts and those are the two accounts. If you line up all the credits and debits and then they cancel out and equal zero. The value of all goods being imported or exported of services and stuff like that too, is the same as the amount of capital moving in and out of the country. The two accounts will cancel out. And this is what's really confusing about balance of payments. Because why the fuck is that true?

Starting point is 02:52:01 Right? Why are the capital flows and trade balance? Why can't you have an imbalance? And the answer is that's how the accounting system works. And the reason the accounting system works like that is because of what balance of payments is. Now, weirdly, if you want a more detailed explanation, there are a billion detailed explanations that are,

Starting point is 02:52:19 extremely convoluted and annoying. The Reserve Bank of Australia weirdly has like a readable one for people who aren't like engrossed and financial stuff. However, comma. I'm going to try to explain it. So balance of payments is the record

Starting point is 02:52:33 of everything that moves in and out of a country. You know, so that's goods, that's services, that's money, it's stocked. When I say it tracks everything, right? It's the record of everything. That means it's recording both sides of a transaction.

Starting point is 02:52:48 So what does that mean? Okay, imagine a receipt, right? It's a receipt for a burger. You have bought one hamburger. On the receipt is the thing you bought, the burger, and how much it cost, which is the money you pay for it. Balance of payments tracks both the burger and the money you paid for it because it tracks international trade, right?

Starting point is 02:53:10 It's tracking international movement of stuff. And because both the burger and the money changed hands across borders, right? it tracks both of them. And that is why when you put all the credits and debits from both accounts together, it adds up to zero. Right? Because, you know, think about like the net transfer

Starting point is 02:53:30 of funds on that burger, right? On the one hand, there is the burger, and on the other hand, there is, you know, how much money you paid for the burger. And those two things are equivalent, right? The value of the burger is how much is worth. So, okay, that means that

Starting point is 02:53:46 in the accounting of it, right, The account on the receipt, which shows both of these things, is balanced, because it's tracking both them, right? And this is the same way it works for an investment. You buy shares of a company, so, okay, there's the money for the shares and the shares themselves, and they're both being tracked, and they both go into the record that balance of payments keeps. So there are some convoluted things about this, and this is the reason why you need to combine both accounts instead of each account being balanced by themselves, because sometimes the record of the burger goes in one account and the record of the money for that burger goes in a different account. This is convoluted.

Starting point is 02:54:26 It's because of like how income is classified. It's a mess. You can go read the Reserve Bank of Australia. But that's why you need both accounts together to get the balance of payments, right? Because both the burger and the money for the burger are in the balance of payments somewhere, but they might go in different accounts. So you need to put them together. and that's how you get the balance of payments. And see, that's why it's called the balance of payments, right? They balance out. See, now you're getting it.

Starting point is 02:54:52 Now you're getting it. This is why it always balances out to zero because it's the balance of both the money and the object, right? So sharp-eared listeners may be going, wait, hold on. So Section 122, which is where the tariffs are from, is about a deficit in the balance of payments. How can you have a deficit if it always balances out to zero? And the answer is, technically speaking, you can't.

Starting point is 02:55:13 So, okay, what the fuck is? going on here? Why is Trump using, and Trump specifically is claiming that there's a balance of payment deficit and there's a crisis in order to impose these tariffs? So what is going on here? Why does this law exist? You will find out after these ads. Woo! Cliffhanger! A! So to explain what is going on here, we need to take a detour back in time to when this was written. This act was written in 1974, but we need to go back a little. little further to 1971. Now, in 1971, Richard Nixon makes probably the most consequential in a macro sense change to, like, how currency functions on a global scale in probably half a

Starting point is 02:56:10 millennia, when he pulled the U.S. off the gold standard. So what does this mean? It means that Nixon ended what was called dollar convertibility or the ability to go to the government and trade your dollar for a certain amount of gold. So this fixes the value of the dollar to the value of gold, so the value of your currency is sort of relatively constant in that, like, it's this much gold, right? But it means that your macroeconomic policy is constrained by your gold supply. So why did Nixon take the U.S. off the gold standard? And what does this have to do with balance of payments?

Starting point is 02:56:46 Surprisingly, everything? So, okay, what I've been describing about balance. of payments, I've been describing modern balance of payments. If you go back and read stuff from the Fed from this era, when they talk about balance of payments or talking about flows of gold, in this period, every dollar that leaves the country represents an amount of gold. And the more of it that leaves the country, the more pressure that puts on the U.S. gold reserves because, you know, there's less and less of it. This is what they're talking about when they talk about balance of payments, right? Now, what's interesting here, and this is something that's important for our

Starting point is 02:57:23 modern purposes, is that the problem that the U.S. was facing in the 50s and 60s that causes Nixon to do this when they're talking about having balance of payments deficits, which they are in this period, right? And this is why this law is written is because this is a period where this stuff is talked about. The problem isn't a trade deficit, right? And this is very important. Trade deficits and balance of payments deficits, not the same thing at all. In fact, in this whole period, when the US is running these massive balance payments deficits to become a problem, they have a trade surplus, right? They have a trade surplus. So like, okay, how are they like losing gold then, right? Like, how are dollars flowing out of the country? Well, it turns out that what's actually making this

Starting point is 02:58:07 a balance of account deficit where like dollars are leaving the economy, which means gold's leaving the U.S. is vaults, is that the U.S. is spending too much in this military. It's always It's fucking military spending. It is always fucking military spending. Holy shit. It's the reason everything is broken. It's literally just always military spending. We're spending too much gold on the damn military.

Starting point is 02:58:28 Right. So the deficit, and you were talking about a balanced payment deficit, the actual deficit is that in order to pay for wars and to do military bases, they are spending money in other countries. And this is technically like part of the balance of payments, right? Because it's money leaving the country. And, you know, like,

Starting point is 02:58:46 technically speaking, the balance of payments as we've been talking about it, right? Like the account is balanced. But we keep spending dollars in order to obtain military bases and then also in order to bomb Korea and then Vietnam. And the dollars have to come from somewhere. Now, again, the dollar at this point is gold. It represents a fixed amount of gold that the U.S. has. And those dollars are coming from the U.S. government.

Starting point is 02:59:12 So that that's what the actual quote unquote deficit is in this case, right? you will see this described as like oh my god they're paying for stuff from the current account from the capital account no no technically yes but like what's actually happening here is that the US right it's gold leaving the country because the US is having to buy shit for military bases

Starting point is 02:59:30 right and it's not getting enough gold back from trade to replenish the amount of gold that the US is spending on these military bases now in theory this is fine because it's technically speaking you're spending dollars and as long as no one tries to actually convert those dollars into gold, you'll be okay. Enter one Charles de Gaulle,

Starting point is 02:59:51 president of France, who begins to en masse convert American dollars into gold in order to end the dollars reign as the world reserve currency because he was pissed off at the U.S. running the world. This is not like Charles de Gaul anti-imperialist. DeGal does not want like the end of imperialism. DeGal wants there to be equal footing or more equal footing between the different imperialist powers, right? He just wants France to be like a major world. power, the imperialist power as well, right? The power the U.S. gets from being the world reserve currency is extremely important. So what is the reserve currency?

Starting point is 03:00:36 The reserve currency is the currency that like all global trade is done in. And because it's the currency that all global trade is done in, all of the world central banks have to hold like a bunch of that currency, right? And that's why it's called the reserve currency. But I say all of the world central banks have to hold it except for the United States, which does not have to hold dollars because it's our fucking currency and if we want more we can just print more, right? So this is how they call it like senior age privilege,

Starting point is 03:01:03 but like the power of this, right, is enormous. And the dollar status as the reserve currency is actually really important to us in terms of explaining these sort of balance of payments deficits and crises. So, okay, here's the St. Louis Fed on why countries have to hold world reserve currencies. Quote, governments and or central banks keep, you know, like reserve currency on hand, and for several reasons, including exchange management, insurance against sudden loss of ability to pay for imports caused by a halt,

Starting point is 03:01:33 capital inflows such as foreign direct investment to the domestic market, foreign purchases of domestic stocks or bonds or domestic borrowing from the rest of the world, insurance for other economic contingencies such as wars or natural disasters. Now, the second one is what's of concern to us, right? It's insurance against sudden loss of ability to pay for impasse. imports. And that's what's commonly known as a balance of payments crisis in the current day. When you run out of dollars to pay for your imports or to pay for your foreign debt, which is a real issue too, right? Usually your money goes to the foreign debt and then you're out of

Starting point is 03:02:08 currency and then you can't, you know, like import more shit. This is a balance of payments crisis. And they're actually pretty common or decently common in a bunch of developing countries and they are almost always completely catastrophic. It's one of the foremost causes of modern revolutions because when you have one of these balance of payments crises, you can't afford to fucking import things because you don't have enough dollars. You can't import oil or, you know, fertilizer or food because you don't have enough dollars to do it and your government has gone through all of the dollar reserves. As I talked about in the ED, Trulonka is probably the most recent example that the country, you know, just ran out of dollars to purchase shit with and

Starting point is 03:02:45 the ensuing unbelievably hideous shit that everyone had to suffer through caused people to burn down the president's fucking mansion. You will know, and I said this before, you you will know if the U.S. has a balance of payments crisis because you will see the smoke and flames outside of your window. And it's not just like Sri Lanka, right? Like the revolution in Sudan. Like the reason that there's a civil war in Sudan right now, to some extent, is because of one of these crises that set off a revolution, even though, you know, what usually happens in these cases, right, is that a country has one of these crises and then someone, usually the International Monetary Fund will give them a loan. And so they will give them dollars in exchange for, you know, like turning the entire economy of that country to a debt. servicing machine, which means, you know, like taking food out of the mouths of babies to pay that debt back. And this also often causes revolutions, right? So, like, Sudan had a balance of payments crisis in, like, 2018, late 2018, 2019. And they eventually got an IMF bailout deal, but, like, the price of bread increased by 250% and people drove Omer al-Bashir out of power.

Starting point is 03:03:45 However, comma, you will note that I have been saying that these crises are caused because countries run out of dollars. But we can't run out of dollars. dollars because those are United States dollars. We can just fucking print them. We literally cannot have this kind of balance of payments crisis because it's all our own money. And we can just print shit in our own money. Jesus Christ, this is so silly.

Starting point is 03:04:13 Losing my mind. It's not possible. You can't do it. Oh my God. Now, however, why is the law like this? Right? Like, why is there a law written talking about the U.S. as if it could have a balance of payments deficit? Again, like, right up until 1971, when Nixon took the U.S. off the gold standard, it actually was possible to, you know, make the U.S. run out of dollars because you could run out of gold.

Starting point is 03:04:39 And this is what, like, the gall was trying to do, you know, by, like, making the U.S. convert all this dollars in the gold. But Nixon just said, fuck it, the dollars are floating currency now. And since its value isn't pegged to a certain amount of anything else, right? And that's the way it's been ever since. We can't have these crises. Now, the countries that have these crises in modern day are ones that peg their currency to like a specific amount of dollars, right? And they tend to run out of their reserves trying to like stabilize the value of their

Starting point is 03:05:07 currency by offering conversions of their currency into the dollar at the official rate by like letting people go convert their currency into dollars. But again, we can't have that because it's dollars. We owe shit in dollars. And also, in order to have a full-on balance payments crisis where you can't pay for things, right? It requires no one to be willing to lend you money. And it's like, okay, like, who is not going to lend

Starting point is 03:05:33 the United States of America money? Like, are you fucking kidding me? This is the vaguest crisis of all time. This bill, however, was passed again in like 1974. And it was only three years after the U.S. was off the gold standard. And so people were like, okay, we're going to do this thing in case we ever go back to a situation where this stuff is possible.

Starting point is 03:05:53 But right now, like, we literally structurally cannot have a balance of payments crisis. Like, we can't have one. You can't have a balance of payments deficit. This is not the same as a trade deficit. Trump is trying to argue that, oh, we have a trade deficit.

Starting point is 03:06:09 Our current account, which is like the trade account is like 4% below balance, but then if you look at the capital account and you put them together, our balances, because that's just how it works. Oh, that means we're in trouble

Starting point is 03:06:20 and nonsense. Absolutely bullshit. He's also claiming that there's like fundamental international payment problems which like no there aren't because fundamental international payment problems means you can't pay for your imports or like your debt

Starting point is 03:06:33 and if we weren't able to do that you would all know. So, they're going to lose this lawsuit because this is the fakeest crisis that has ever existed. And now you know how fake it is and also what balance of payments is.

Starting point is 03:06:52 I'm going to close on a story about this, which is that there is a scenario in which this knowledge has actually saved countries before. And specifically, like, the country that this saved was Cuba. There's, like, the Cuban Revolution, right? And immediately after the Cuban Revolution, the government, it's not, like, clear that they're communist yet.

Starting point is 03:07:13 There's this very, very short window where it's, like, not quite entirely clear what the fuck is going to be going on with this new, like, Cuban government. And the government sends Che Guevara to the U.S. to negotiate with a bunch of American banks, right? And Che Guevara actually understands this stuff, right? He knows what balance of payments is.

Starting point is 03:07:32 He knows, he's able to, like, talk to all of the sort of Manhattan bankers who are talking about this stuff on their terms, right? And, like, they literally, the line they say about it was like, yeah, he talks like a banker, right? He understands balance of payments. He understands all of this stuff. And what he's able to do, and this is, critically, like, why the nation of Cuba, like, why the Cuban revolution succeeded, was that he was able to get the U.S. to give him all of his gold?

Starting point is 03:07:59 Like, because he was able to convince these bankers, because he understood what they were talking about in their language, and he was able to convince the U.S. government to get him all this fucking gold because he understood how this shit works. And that's why, like, Cuba was, like, functional as a country after that, because they had managed to get all of their gold reserves, which previously had been being held in the U.S. So, you know, you never know when you two might be at the head of a better revolution or you might be the one person in your new revolutionary coalition who understands what balance payments is.

Starting point is 03:08:30 And you too can get your gold out of the United States before the government realizes that your communists and would have like locked it down and frozen it and taken the gold. So, this is but it could happen here, the podcast that helps you take your country's gold reserves like Che Guevara. Oh boy. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world around them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast.

Starting point is 03:09:10 I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeart Radio or wherever you listen. listen to your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about

Starting point is 03:09:36 astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic, Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people, you know, with strong placements in Aquarius, like are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all.

Starting point is 03:10:16 If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wag Agetten change the paddock forever?

Starting point is 03:11:02 That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 03:11:36 Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actors and producer, Jamie Lee Curtis, ahead of the release of her new thriller series, Scarpetta. I can honestly say I've never done an interview like that before. Or, you know, at one point I shut my laptop down. And we just started chatting as old friends, recent Oscar recipient. So we have some commonality there. I predicted that, by the way.

Starting point is 03:12:06 And you said these words to me, dust off your mantle. Yes. And I looked at you and I said, what? And you said, dust off your mantle. And then I left and that was it. And then when all of that happened, I don't. remember the next morning, I think I wanted to, like, write you and go, how did you know? Listen to the Questlove show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

Starting point is 03:12:34 podcasts. This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Stout, Robert Evans, with a segment later on by Mia Wong. This episode, we are covering the week of March 4th to March 4th to March 11th. Some small news items here at the top. Ahead of National Espresso Martini Day this Sunday, Buffalo Wild Wings is releasing a wing-flavored espresso proteiny cocktail made with muscle milk protein powder infused with the buffalo dry rub, which also coats the rim of the glass.

Starting point is 03:13:17 I got to say, when we stationed a reporter permanently at Buffalo Wild Wings headquarters, a lot of people said, why not somewhere in one of the many war zones in the world? You know, why not in Washington, D.C. in the press corps? And I shouted that person down until they cried. And today, today, I've been proven right. We will be doing a detailed report on the espresso protein next week, anxiously awaiting the release of it this weekend. Yeah, I'm not touching that shit.

Starting point is 03:13:48 Yes, I'm excited that they have finally decided to put muscle milk powder in an espresso martini. It's one of the foulest. Every word in this sentence gets worse. The dry rub, I think, is much more dangerous, frankly. It's the dry rub, muscle milk combo. You're going to be sneezing as you drink it. Imagine if someone had just come out with spicy packs of muscle milk. Like, pre-mixed muscle milk that was unspicy.

Starting point is 03:14:15 I'd be shocked if that didn't already exist, to be honest. I mean, it'll kill you. It'll kill your toilet. What is beautiful to me, though, and what I should note, this goes back to our sponsors, Buffalo Wild Wings, caring very deeply about human beings. Muscle milk is in the bottom third of protein powders when it comes to lead exposure.

Starting point is 03:14:35 Now, that's still more lead than you're supposed to have. But they are in the bottom third. It's one of the better ones. It's one of the better ones. A few other small news items. Erica Kirk has been appointed to the Air Force Academy Board of Visitors. Obviously, Erica, Air Force. Makes sense.

Starting point is 03:14:55 Charlie Kirk also served on this board. And Ben Shapiro's eyebrows are not actually that big. Those videos are manipulated media. I saw those and I knew they were fake and chose not to prove to myself that they were fake because I needed something that day. But I guess I'm okay today. I haven't seen these. Oh, wow. I'm just seeing these for the first time.

Starting point is 03:15:20 Wow. It's like a caterpillar has crawled up there. The beauty of how the meme worked is that I saw it for the first time right after waking up. I was like, well, that's got to be fake. And then I saw five more pictures of different pictures with the eyebrows. And so I got this beautiful moment. And it wasn't more than about a minute, but this moment of magic, like when you're a child on Christmas morning, like this might be real.

Starting point is 03:15:42 Maybe this is real. It's one of the more useful uses for AI generated or AI altered videos. Yeah, it's turned me around. You can apply like the, you know, these very subtle changes to a lot of different videos fairly quickly. So it's not just one, you know, photoshopped or like, you know, visual effects video. But there's like five, you know, handheld cell phone videos that

Starting point is 03:16:04 look pretty genuine. And if you just make enough of them, you're like, oh, this, this seems, this seems real. Yeah. And I mean, Garrison, you're bringing up the part of this that actually is evidence of a danger. But let's all just enjoy this for just a second more. Okay, we're done. Hundreds of people have returned

Starting point is 03:16:20 to a phreene after having been removed nine years to go in some cases by Turkish proxy forces and their SNA. Many of them will have returned to find their orchards and their homes destroyed, but at least now they can begin to rebuild. For an idea of how important Afrin was, like, one of the most common nom de Gears that I came across when talking to YPG and YPJ fighters was Havalafrin. Like, it's a name that you pick because you're not going to use your real name as a revolutionary fighter. And a lot of people, some of them came from Afrin. Some of them was just a symbol of, you know, what,

Starting point is 03:16:54 the Kurds had lost to the Turkish military aggression. Yeah. But this is a very big deal for them. Yeah. It's like I know I've been critical of STG, but like I'm glad to see this happening. Yeah. Also in Syria, Sipan Hemo has been appointed as a deputy minister of defense for eastern Syria, which would be, I guess, the way they're dividing up now will be the area which

Starting point is 03:17:15 include Syria and Kurdistan. And we just learned today, very sadly, that Salah Muslim, who's one of the co-cha. of the PYD, the Democratic Union Party, has passed away, which is, yeah, pretty sad. Rest in peace. Last week, the Department of Justice finally released some of the missing files related to four interviews from 2019 with the protected source who claimed that Epstein introduced her to Trump in the 80s when she was between the ages of 13 and 15 and that Trump sexually abused her.

Starting point is 03:17:48 The newly released documents are FBI memos, summarizing three interviews and a crisis intake form. Yeah. This victim received a financial settlement from the EFstein estate in 2021, and NPR found that there are still 37 missing pages related to these interviews. Yeah. It's also worth noting that the FBI is currently looking into Zorro Ranch. What was once Zorro Ranch in New Mexico? This was Jeffrey Epstein's New Mexico property, and it's where he talked a lot about when he would talk about his plans to like breed a bunch of children and stuff with his DNA or whatever. He, like, Zorro Ranch was the epicenter of this.

Starting point is 03:18:29 And it's become clear in the documents release that in terms of the amount of trafficking and the amount of abuse of trafficked children that was done there, at least equal to his island. Now, this ranch goes under a new name and it's owned by a new person. And we'll talk about who exactly that is in a second. but there were several attempts by local law enforcement to investigate the ranch, particularly to dig for human remains. But those were kind of stymied by ongoing FBI investigations that seem very shady in retrospect, given how long they waited to look for bodies on the ranch.

Starting point is 03:19:10 But they're doing that now. I don't know if they're going to find anything. A lot of the talk about bodies is in, like, individual anonymous reports. That said, I'm glad they're looking. They should be looking at this ranch. And now I can give the promised punchline, which is that the current guy who owns Jeffrey Epstein's ranch is Don Huffines, who's running for state coptroller in Texas. And who used to run one of the big dealerships in my childhood, Huffines has it. In this case, Huffines might have evidence that Jeffrey Epstein murdered people.

Starting point is 03:19:42 Great. Sorry. That is bleak. Let's start with Christie Nome. As we reported last week, it looks like Christie Nome's talking about. Christy Nob's time at the Department of Homeland Security is about to come to an end. It did seem that at the time that Trump announced this, via truth, Noam was unaware of her removal.

Starting point is 03:20:04 There's footage of her speaking at an event. They sure is. People become aware that she's lost her job. But shortly afterwards, she posted on X.com, the everything website, thank you at POTUS for appointing me as a special envoy for Shield of the Americas. When you see the shield of the Americas, this is not Christian, when you see the shield of the America's website,

Starting point is 03:20:27 you will fucking be laughing then. At Sec Rubio and at Sec War are incredible leaders, and I look forward to working with them closely to dismantle cartels that have poured drugs into our nation and killed our children and grandchildren. There's a lot more in this tweet. Yeah, I appreciate how Trump congratulated Nome on being an excellent secretary of, in quotation,

Starting point is 03:20:51 Mark's homeland. Yes. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah, it was great. There has been some speculation about known being fired because of vehicles that she purchased for DHS. I've linked to a bunch of those contracts.

Starting point is 03:21:08 I found the contracts. That money is relatively trivial when you look at the massive budget that they have. And I'm really not sure that this was a reason, and I've seen no evidence to suggest that it was. what I have seen is that Nome is going to be replaced by Mark Wayne Mullen. Mullen is a bombastic MAGA supporter. He's probably best known with trying to start a fight in Congress with Sean O'Brien and generally being an extremely loyal supporter of Trump, in all cases, apart from January

Starting point is 03:21:41 6th, where for a while he supported prosecutions. Now he's much more like equivocating on that. He also at one point attempted to set up his own evacuation of US citizens from Afghanistan during the Biden administration. He is an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee nation, which, as I commented before, has been a source of far too many democratic critiques, which are really kind of disgusting and bigoted. Yeah. God. There are so many things to be upset about Wayne Mullen about, and being Cherokee is not one of them. And, like, policing how you think indigenous people should look or suggesting that, like,

Starting point is 03:22:16 Yeah. He doesn't fit your trope of indigenous people is in itself bigoted and offensive. Yeah. As a general rule, if you're like finding reasons or reading someone else who's finding reasons to say this person who has lived their entire life as a member of this tribe isn't really that, you're basing it on some form of racist U.S. government logic from one decade or another because it's changed over time as opposed to how the tribe actually considers membership, right?

Starting point is 03:22:44 Yeah. Is it, I guess, what should matter most? I don't, I shouldn't have an opinion on it either way, but. Yeah, it's not what you claim. It's who claims you. It's right. Right, right, exactly. It's like the way family, I don't know, I shouldn't say anymore because it's not my fucking

Starting point is 03:22:57 place. Yeah. I wish other people would adopt the same science. Mullen is a really big border hawk. He's been incredibly combative in Congress. I don't think that this will make DHS any less aggressive or violent. Clearly, Gnomes tenure had become unpopular, right, in the same way that Bovino had become unpopular. But I don't think this signals a dramatic change in DHS leadership towards respecting people's basic dignity and rights.

Starting point is 03:23:29 Now, I want to talk a little bit about the Shield of the Americas. The program was announced last weekend at Trump's Gulf Resort in Southern Florida. It currently has a webpage with a really incredible placeholder graphic. Maybe I should just share this. go to Shield of the Americas. I was, I was wondering if that was a real

Starting point is 03:23:48 website. I think it is. Like, do we know that that's actually what they? So I, I'm a little unsure, because I couldn't find

Starting point is 03:23:56 like a government contract for like the website hosting, right? But I don't think I've ever found a government contract to a website hosting. So it's a placeholder and then it has videos.

Starting point is 03:24:09 If you click access content, it appears to be essentially like a Dropbox. Huh. for videos of the Shield of the America's event. Yeah. It seems to be real. It does seem to, based on the inclusion of these videos,

Starting point is 03:24:23 but the main page with the little shield. That's definitely their logo. Yeah. It looks like it's from 2005 in the most enduring way possible. Yeah, no, someone booted up Microsoft Paint and went to town on this. Someone had graphic design as a passion, yeah. It looks kind of G.I. Joe-esque. It looks kind of like American Ninja War.

Starting point is 03:24:44 Warrior-ass? Yeah. Like, it's a very specific, like, an era of design choices here. The Shield graphic. Yeah. It's fascinating. Much to discuss. Anyway, moving past the graphic.

Starting point is 03:24:57 Currently, the Shield of the America's agreement was signed by representatives from Argentina, Bolivia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guyana, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United States. Evidently, for those keeping track of countries in the Americas, It's leaves Mexico, Brazil, Colombia and Venezuela, along with other Caribbean island nations. There was also a representative from Chile's president-elect who obviously couldn't sign because they don't have the authority to do so yet. What it seems to be is an extension of what we've seen already, right, of the quote-unquote Don Roe doctrine. Can we just call it the Trump doctrine?

Starting point is 03:25:37 Why do we got to do this? Why do we got to do this? I think the Don Roe doctrine actually is the correct way to refer to it. I just Trump himself has used it and it annoys me. Yeah, unfortunately. It annoys me. You and me both, buddy.

Starting point is 03:25:51 I know it's what he calls it, but it annoys me. It's extremely unfortunate. But it also links it to an actual lineage of U.S. foreign policy behavior. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. The Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine

Starting point is 03:26:03 would perhaps have been a more conventional way. That would be the dignified way to refer to it. That would be the way like a historian would hope to refer to it. Yeah, unfortunately, dignity is not a thing that is abounding at this time. No, it's not. It's not. First is tragedy, second is farce. Yeah, and then it's really big farce.

Starting point is 03:26:22 I guess the best way to explain should of America is to explain the conference that was hosted the day before at Trump's golf resort, which was the Department of Defense, which was the Department of Defense, which was the Department of Defense, which is the Department of Defense again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, because that's not a war. The DOD hosted the America's Counter-Cartel Conference, the correct abbreviation, according to the Secretary of Defense, is AC3, just so you know. And I think it's best to explain this with the strikes that were carried out just a few days before this, right? On the 3rd of March, in the 6th of March, Southcom. So that would be the U.S. Regional Command, which encompasses South America and Central America, announced it to hit, quote, launched operations against, quote,

Starting point is 03:27:11 designated terrorist organizations in Ecuador. We saw videos of like these very small, very isolated jungle outposts being struck. And then we saw videos of helicopters deploying troops who did not appear to be United States troops. It is unclear exactly like what the munitions or what the thing doing that the strike at the start of those videos were. But it seems that the US is working at the very least with Ecuadorian troops, potentially the US is just there to quote unquote train, advise and assist, right? But it signals a much more, like, violent approach to this anti-cartel mission. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:27:54 In this case, the two groups, Los Groneros and Los Lobos, they were both listed as foreign terrorist organizations and especially designated global terrorists in September of last year. I haven't seen that link made. anywhere else explicitly in reference to this strike. But the fact that they used, they didn't use FTO in the statement, right? They used DTO designated terrorist organizations. There are a few different ways an organization can be designated as a terrorist. But given that there are two that are listed as FTOs and that those two others most acquis in

Starting point is 03:28:30 the region, I think we can assume that that's who it was against. They also added the Clan del Gulfor, right? the Gulf cartel would be how people refer to it in English in December of 25 to the FTO list. I didn't pick this up at the time. And again, I haven't seen a great deal of reporting on it. The reason this concerns me is that it pertains to the trig bar, terrorism-related inadmissibility guidelines. The trig bar can bar people for being admissible to the United States, and it could be a serious barrier to migrants. organizations can be considered terrorists for the purpose of the trig bar if they are not FTOs, but the addition of the Gulf Cartel to the FTO list will make it very hard for people seeking asylum in the United States who have crossed the Darien

Starting point is 03:29:26 because it is not possible for them to do that, at least if they are coming from south to north, which was a direction of travel until 2025, without transiting Gulf Cartel Territory, and it would not be possible for that to happen without interacting with them in some way. And so this is potentially very concerning. I want to do more reporting on the trig bar. I am pursuing that with some public records request,

Starting point is 03:29:51 which will just take some time. Trump has very clearly made the link between this coalition and the much larger international coalition against the Islamic State. I've said this before, but he clearly sees Operation Inherent Resolve as a very successful model for foreign policy. Yeah. I especially think the model of the, it was called Talent Anvil, but the strike cell that they had in Syria is one that he thinks is a very successful model.

Starting point is 03:30:21 I've written about this. I'll link to a piece I wrote about this in my newsletter. But, Robic, do you want to go ahead there? Yeah. I mean, I should start with a little update on our ongoing story, which is that America is out of bullets or running out of bullets. Not literal bullets. There's plenty of those. Yeah, and also those in America.

Starting point is 03:30:42 But the actual munitions that we use to intercept both drones and ballistic missiles. Now, a couple of things have happened since the start of our war with Iran. We've moved a significant chunk, if not the absolute majority. It's a little unclear. of the anti-missile and anti-drone weaponry, the major stuff that we had protecting other parts of the world that the United States has bases in, like South Korea, over to the Middle East and over to intercept Iranian missiles,

Starting point is 03:31:10 primarily headed either toward U.S. forces or most often to Israel. But even with all of the shit that we've redeployed from other areas, there's only so many of the munitions that we use, because they're very expensive and particularly the drones that Iran is using, like the Shahid drones, are very cheap. cheap. So starting at kind of the start of hostilities, we were looking about 6.7% Iranian drones got through the intercept, got through. And this is just in the UAE, but you can assume that it's fairly accurate to other theaters, right?

Starting point is 03:31:42 Because we have a lot of missile defense and a lot of drone defense in the UAE. So at the start of hostilities, about 6.7% of Iranian Shihid drones were getting through the UAE's defenses. Garters, stop it. Huh? There is a thing, Robert, that younger people do. Yes, the six, seven thing. Yes, I know it's funny. Iran did that just for the zoomers or the gin alphas, whatever.

Starting point is 03:32:06 Anyway, that's February, like 28th by March 10th, more than 25% of Iranian drones are getting through UAE's interception defenses. Oh, wow. There hasn't been a massive change in the rate of ballistic missile interceptions yet, which suggests that at least we're not running on empty. But that's not good. Yeah. Right.

Starting point is 03:32:27 That's a massive change. Like, that's a massive issue. So we'll continue. I'll be doing a whole episode on how the U.S. is running out of bullets, bullets being, you know, a stand-in term for more advanced munitions. But I've got something else to talk about right now that's also involved in the Iranian theater, particularly I'm going to talk about mines in the strait of Hormuz. Let's do some ads for products that you may not be able to buy if naval traffic is interdicted through. the street of Hormuz.

Starting point is 03:32:56 So buy him now. So get him now, books. So there's a evidence that's come out kind of in the last couple of days. I saw it broken on the new republic, but I believe CBS News was the origin point that Iran started laying minds in the straight before Donald Trump publicly declared he was going, he wanted to take it over. Yeah. So basically after we killed a huge chunk of the Iranian government, Trump started publicly amusing, maybe we'll just take over the street. of Hormuz, and Iran started mining the shit out of it. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:33:37 Now, this is a problem for a lot of reasons. For one thing, the strait is probably the most, I mean, it's arguably the most important energy transit point on planet Earth, right? Like, it's about a fifth of all crude oil shipments go through the strait. That's not the only thing that goes through there, but it is an incredible amount of the world's crude oil supply travels through this strait. And Tehran's always kind of had the option of closing it by just dumping a bunch of mines in there. Mines are incredibly cheap.

Starting point is 03:34:10 You can drop mines from very small boats. The U.S. Navy is very good at blowing up big boats. But if you have a shitload of small boats that have a shitload of mines, it's basically impossible to stop an adversary like Iran from laying a fuckload of mines. And that will make it basically untenable financially for anyone to run oil through the war. the strait. If you'd ever know if one of your boats is going to get hit by a fucking sea mine, it makes it hard to get insured to run a boat through the Strait of Hormuz. Most of these mines are not capable of, I mean, these mines in general are not capable of destroying the kind of bulk haulers that move crude through. They're not going to blow the boat out of the

Starting point is 03:34:48 water immediately, but they're going to damage it and they have a very good chance because these boats are filled with crude fucking oil of lighting them on fire. And that causes a serious problem for the crew of any boat. I want you to, I shouldn't have to explain why. Why, that creates a serious problem with the crew of any boat. That's filled with crude oil, right? It's pretty obvious. Once it became clear that Iran started laying, had started laying mines in the strait. U.S. forces claimed to have sunk 16 mine layers.

Starting point is 03:35:16 That was from U.S. sent com. Although it's kind of unclear because at least half of those seem to have been inactive at the time. So these may have just been bigger mine layers that we hit at the start of our attacks on their Navy. And then when we realize there's going to be a news cycle about mines in the strait, let's claim, you know, whatever. After it came out that Iran had, in fact, been laying mines, President Trump, truth, we want them removed immediately if for any reason mines were placed and they are not removed forthwith.

Starting point is 03:35:43 I've never heard him use forthwith before. Yes, and he won for him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The military consequences to Iran will be at a level never before seen. If on the other hand, they remove what may have been placed, it will be a giant step in the right direction. That sounds kind of desperate.

Starting point is 03:35:56 And it sounds kind of desperate because the United States is in a uniquely dog-shit position. to deal with sea mines, right specifically now? Yeah. We made a really funny decision. And by we, I mean, the Trump administration made a really funny decision. Basically, immediately before we declared war on Iran, a country we've known has always threatened to mine the Strait of Hormuz every time we fucked with them. And that funny decision was in January, the Navy decommissioned four Avengers class mine

Starting point is 03:36:30 countermeasure ships. which were the last mine countermeasureships we had in the Persian Gulf. Now, we have other boats that we're pretty sure can do the job, but we've never tried. And the funny thing about the boats that we're currently going to be using to take out mines is that they're pre-existing boats that were not built to take out mines. We basically have like, I think they're called like operations packages that you add to the boat, to add capability. one of the capabilities they have these little like basically drone torpedo things that can go out and seek out mines. They've got an enhanced like radar package, I guess, or whatever. They're better at looking for mines because the boats that they added these packages to were not initially meant for demining.

Starting point is 03:37:15 They're littoral combat ships, LCSs, widely considered to be the worst boats in the entire U.S. Navy. In fact, in the Navy, the acronym LCS stands for little crappy ships because they're bad. They've been very bad. Basically, every time we have, like, tested how will these things function in, like, a real fight, the answer has been, like, terribly. They're not good ships. They kind of suck ass. Now, we'll see if the mind countermeasures that they put on these boats, like, make them superior

Starting point is 03:37:48 to the old Avenger class. However, there's a lot of issues with the mind countermeasure packages that they've been making for these. And I want to read a quote from an article published by famous leftist and thus untrustworthy news source, the U.S. Naval Institute. Quote, initially set for an initial operational capability in 2015, the MCM package went through a development process punctuated by stops and program failures. For example, the first craft that could tow the AQS-20 sonar to hunt the bulk of mines suffered reliability problems and was scrapped. The service also canceled a plan for the MH60s to tow the AQS20. After years of program changes, the packages coalesced around a few core main systems. So the development of these MCM mission packages has been troubled for a very long time, which is what delayed the retirement of the Avenger class mine hunters previously.

Starting point is 03:38:38 And the Navy's now saying they totally work now, and we're all going to find out in real time if they do. Sick. And the last funny thing I have to say is the four decommissioned Avenger anti-mining ships, two of them at least have hilarious names. Two of them make sense. One of them was the USS Century, perfectly reasonable name for a demining ship. The other was the USS Dextrous, kind of a weird name, but whatever. And then you have the USS Devastator and the USS Gladiator. What is a mine ship devastate?

Starting point is 03:39:07 It's for DMU, it's to stop things from getting devastated. Anyway, that's my report. Good to know. And let's pick up with Iran. I want to start by talking about the speculation regarding partner forces. I think some of it has been just like a little bit misinformed. Start with people have been talking about the Balochistan Liberation Army. They were only added to the United States FTO list last summer,

Starting point is 03:39:34 which leads me to believe that the Trump administration is not positively disposed towards them, right? Like if they've just put them on the FTO list in August of last year. One of the odds anyone in that administration knows where Belochistan is. Yeah. It happened shortly after they killed some Pakistani-N-Southisdani news. military personnel, so I'm guessing they just got asked to do it, or it was part of a negotiation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It also seems very unlikely that Trump is now willing to back a Kurdish land.

Starting point is 03:40:02 Incursion. Invasion wouldn't be the right word. Kurdish people going into Kurdistan. It's not an invasion. I have a short video here. We're about kind of an autonomous region as they did in Syria and Iraq. We're not looking at the Kurdish going in. We're very friendly with the Kurdish, as you know, but we don't want to make the war any more complex than it already is. You can't roll that out? We don't want, yeah, I have ruled it. I don't want the Kurds going in.

Starting point is 03:40:27 I don't want to see the Kurds get hurt, get killed. We've had a good relation. They're willing to go in, but we really, I've told them, I don't want them to go in. Like the map of Iran, I just think it's, the war is complicated enough without having. Yeah, sure. You wouldn't want the war to get complicated. Yeah. Also, the audio quality on Fox News, they're absolutely atrocious.

Starting point is 03:40:49 Yeah. It's hard on those planes sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're in a difficult situation. So I've spoken to a couple of these Kurdish groups that people have been speculating about in the last couple of weeks. Here's part of a statement that I received from the P.A.K. That's a Kurdistan Freedom Party that refers to the U.S.'s vacillation on supporting them.

Starting point is 03:41:10 Quote, the United States is working in the best possible way to dismantle the Iranian regime and eliminate terrorism in the region. For over three decades, we have been fighting to expel the IRG. seed from Kurdistan and liberate our land. Therefore, we cannot and must not base our policies on the shifts in US rhetoric. America has its own plans regarding the overthrow and subsequent administration of Iran, and we have our plan for the liberation administration of Rodgillat, referring to eastern Kurdistan there. Yeah. Meanwhile, of course, for the last week, we've seen consistent bombing of Iran, including the targeting of oil and water infrastructure.

Starting point is 03:41:46 Hengor is reporting horrible overcrowding and food shortages as well as increased militarisation of the Gesr-Hazar prison, which holds more than 16,000 people. As I highlighted last week, Iran was in a water crisis before this new campaign began. Hitting water infrastructure will only increase the odds of massive human suffering and death. This is especially true as it seems that Trump is somewhat growing tired of the war with Iran. He said in a press conference this week it would be, quote, inappropriate to target the newly chosen supreme leader of Iran. In the same press conference, Trump also repeated his claim that Iran was, quote, going to take over the Middle East and would have had, quote, a nuclear weapon within a matter of weeks if it were not for last year's Operation Midnight Hammer. He also talked about an Iranian nuclear site, quote, protected by granite. both Fordo and Natanz were struck last year and have underground elements.

Starting point is 03:42:50 Fordo is about 80 meters below ground. And that was the site that Lake required a US strike. Israel did not have the means to knock that one out. But to the best of my knowledge, Fordo is now out of commission following the strikes in Operation Midnight Hammer, which happened in 2025. So perhaps he's referring to another subterranean site, or perhaps he's. He's confusing this with earlier information. Evidently, you can't just destroy uranium, right? Like if there is enriched nuclear material, then that is still there.

Starting point is 03:43:23 Well, yeah, we talked about this the last time, but like the thing that's time-consuming is enriching the uranium. And there's no evidence that any of this has reduced the amount that Iran has access to. Yes, exactly. And according to Senator Chris Murphy, it doesn't seem like that is particularly the target of this campaign. He said most of the targets are conventional weapons facilities like drones and missile facilities, the Iranian Navy, as for Robert mentioned, Air Force. It does not seem like they're particularly interested in regime change. And as Robert mentioned, the IRGC is still able to use many of its small civilian vessels,

Starting point is 03:44:00 fast attack vessels and drones. I spoke to quite a few people who are in this sort of shipping security world. And one of their concerns is like when they say fast attack vessels, They're talking about very small boats with mounted machine guns, right? Operating in large groups and swarming tankers or other ships going through the straightforward moves, which would be quite challenging to defend ships from, especially if they're large civilian ships, right? I know some people have been speculating about the CM302 missiles that Iran ordered from China. Those are like, quote, unquote, carrier killer missiles.

Starting point is 03:44:38 I don't believe they have those yet, though. If they do, we'll probably find out soon enough. Yeah, boy, that would be a big day. Yeah, that would, yeah, that would, things would get quite bad if that happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I honestly, like, that might be, for this administration, a tactical nuclear scenario.

Starting point is 03:44:59 Like, it would be an unprecedented loss. They'd have to do something insane to save face. Yeah, I assume U.S. carriers have means of defense, as opposed to... They're very hard to kill. Yes. Yeah. That's a particular matchup that no one has seen yet because no one has been wild enough to try it.

Starting point is 03:45:17 Yeah. They say these are carrier killers. They're theoretically carrier killers. That's a lot of the defensive systems on carriers as regards missiles like that are theoretical, too, because it hasn't happened. Yeah. Not many people have aircraft carriers and the people who do you don't want to piss off. Yeah. Finally, I guess, I want to talk about the Senator Blumenthal, who...

Starting point is 03:45:38 who raised the alarm in a congressional briefing this week. Here's a clip. I emerged from this briefing as dissatisfied and angry, frankly, as I have from any past briefing in my 15 years in the Senate. I am left with more questions than answers, especially about the cost of the war, my questions have been unanswered. And I will demand answers because the American people deserve to know. And I guess I am most concerned about the threat to American lives

Starting point is 03:46:30 of potentially deploying our sons and daughters on the ground in Iran. We seem to be on a path toward deploying American troops on the ground in Iran to accomplish any of the potential objectives here. And there is also as disturbingly as anything else the specter of active Russian aid to Iran putting in danger American lives. The last part references reporting that came first from the Washington Post, Russia is providing targeting info to Iran, chiefly using its advanced satellite imaging capacity. To quote from the piece, quote, since the war began on Saturday, Russia has passed Iran the locations of U.S. military assets, including warships and aircraft. This might explain how Iran has been able to hit some softer targets,

Starting point is 03:47:29 like the temporary structure in Kuwait, where at least six people were killed, and we've now learned that many more people were seriously injured, as well as hitting some over-the-horizon radar systems that we spoke about last week. Finally, the US is carrying out operations against Hachdal-Shabbi, popular mobilization forces in Iraq. This is getting a lot less reporting, but it seems like if there are boots on the ground anywhere right now,

Starting point is 03:47:56 this would be where they would be, right? They're using things like Apaches and A-10s. They're not using stand-off munitions to, lived from a great distance. And so anything that is likely to result in either needing people to spot targets or needing people to rescue a pilot of a plane or a helicopter gets shot down would more likely at this point be there in Iraq. That's about all I have.

Starting point is 03:48:23 We'll go on one more ad break and return with a special segment from Mia Wong. We need to intro the music. If you want to play the music, you can. On to the economy, we have been seeing over the past week what I would effectively describe as a will-they, won't they with are the stock markets going to collapse? Where markets have imploded and then immediately rebounded, basically in line with Trump saying that the war is going to be over very soon. This was the sort of state of things on Monday. You know, there had been massive collapses in the Asian market from rising oil prices. and then Trump said that, quote,

Starting point is 03:49:30 the war is very complete pretty much in a phone interview with a journalist from NBC, and this caused a resurrection of the markets. Now, this is completely disconnected from the actual reality of the war and functioned entirely to, again, just calm these markets. On Tuesday, so that was Monday, on Tuesday, Trump said a speech,

Starting point is 03:49:49 quote, we've already won in many ways, but we haven't won enough. We go forward more determined than ever to achieve ultimate victory that will end this long-running danger once and for all, which, okay, that's gibberish. Now, Trump has specifically begun to address the fact that, again, you can't move oil tankers through this trade of Ramuz because Iran is going to just carry out strikes on them. And he said, quote, we're also focused on keeping energy and oil flows to the world,

Starting point is 03:50:17 and I will not allow a terrorist regime to hold the world hostage and attempt to stop the globe's oil supply. And if Iran does anything to do that, they'll get hit at a moment. much, much harder level. I will take out those targets that were easy and that I mentioned before will take them out so quickly. They'll never be able to recover ever if they want to play that game. They better not play that game. In the long run, oil supplies will be dramatically more secure without the threat of Iranian ships, drones, missiles, nuclear, menace, or anything. So what he's saying here is that if Iran keeps the straight closed, he's going to destroy them,

Starting point is 03:50:56 but A, he's already in a war with them. And B, this just means that as long as Iraq keeps a straight close, then the war keeps going, which keeps the straight closed longer, which keeps the war going. So this is great. Trump was also directly asked by a reporter about whether the war is going to keep going. Quote, thank you, thank you, Mr. President. You said the war is, quote, very complete, but your defense secretary says this is just the beginning.

Starting point is 03:51:25 So which is it? and how long should Americans be prepared for this war to last for? And he immediately starts going into metaphysics? He says, quote, well, I think you could say both, the beginning. It's the beginning of building a new country. And then he eventually says, so, you know, you could look at that statement. We could call it a tremendous success.

Starting point is 03:51:43 Right now, as we leave here, I could call it, or we could go further and we're going further. But the big risks on that war have been over for three days. We wiped them out in the first two days. So that's just nothing other than probably the war is going to keep going. Now, Trump has been claiming there were being Navy escorts through the Strait of Formuz. This is an absolute unhinged lie that Trump came up with Chukal Oil prices. And on Wednesday, we had reporting from Reuters that obviously know the Navy has been turning

Starting point is 03:52:11 down request for escort. I'm going to read a quote from that Reuters piece. The U.S. Navy has refused near daily requests from the shipping industry for military escorts through the Strait of Pramuz since the start of the war on Iran, saying the risk of attacks is too high for now, according to sources familiar with the matter, which, yeah, no shit, of course, this isn't happening. There's no way for it to happen. Have you seen an oil tanker?

Starting point is 03:52:36 The largest of these things is two-fifths of a kilometer long. Right. And some of them are, you know, half that size, so they are like one-fifth of a kilometer long. But you can't escort that to a straight, that is, and I kind of emphasize this enough, 23 miles wide

Starting point is 03:52:52 at its narrowest point. Now, Iran has also started mining the straits to some extent. On Wednesday, Trump claimed the Navy had destroyed Iran's mining ships and the strait was safe across. Iran immediately proved this to be a lie by hitting a whole bunch of oil tankers in various places around the Gulf. And this is, you know, one of the substantive issues with trying to get one-fifth of like the world's oil supply through this Gulf on top of and also, and again, like this is being reported a little bit less. But we talked about this in my episode earlier in the week. It's not just oil. It's things like critical, chemical

Starting point is 03:53:25 components for fertilizer that comes through here. It's natural gas. It's also helium, which is a very, very critical element for a whole bunch of heavy industry that is actually very scarce and a huge amount of the world's helium supply has to travel through the Gulf. And there are so many kinds of munitions besides mines that Iran can use to hit boats, for rockets to missiles, to drones, just shooting at them with the guns on boats, the thing they've apparently done now. Now, Trump also said that he was waiving oil-related sanctions on certain countries to reduce prices. it's not clear what this means. It's probably Russia.

Starting point is 03:53:59 Reuters has claimed that it's about the U.S. temporary allowing India to purchase Russian oil that's been stranded at sea. It's very unclear what's going on there. On Thursday, we got a bunch of claims from the administration that escorting tankers to the straight was their plan the whole time,

Starting point is 03:54:18 which, no, it wasn't. This is just going to continue to be an absolute nightmare because if Trump can't figure out a way to get oil through there. He's either going to have to end the war or the world economy is going to just implode. Yeah, we'll be tracking that situation. There's also another crisis

Starting point is 03:54:34 that has begun to brew, which is the crisis in the so-called private credit market, which is, this is stuff that used to be called shadow banking. I'm going to go into more detail on this later as it becomes more and more sort of relevant, but private credit slash shadow banking

Starting point is 03:54:51 is a series of things. that are like a bank, but they're not regulated. So, we're talking about trillions of dollars of assets. There has been a huge run, basically on the shadow banks, to the point where several very large banks have paused the ability to take money out of them. Now, it's difficult to report on this because we don't actually know anything about how many people are pulling their money out or what the effect on this is, because there are no reporting requirements,

Starting point is 03:55:23 because these are shadow banks. And the whole point about them is that they're not subject to the regular regulations that regular banking would be subject to. So that's another looming economic crisis that we're all sort of just going to have to deal with on top of Trump attempting to sort of destroy the economy with this war in Iran. And finally, I want to close by talking about a very good peace and crime thing called history is repeating itself, a Lebanese perspective on the war in Palestine, Lebanon, and Iran. that is an interview with friend of the show Ilya Ayub, talking about a part of this war that hasn't basically ignored in the media, which is, to quote Elia, Israel has ordered the forced evacuation, effectively the ethnic cleansing of the entirety of southern Lebanon, the He and parts of Becca.

Starting point is 03:56:12 This has been a horrifying campaign that has involved Israel bombing major Lebanese cities, including repeated bombings of Beirut, as well as a systematic destruction of Lebanese villages, Israeli army in the areas they've occupied in the south. The Israeli invasion has killed 600 people in Lebanon so far. That number will be higher by the time you're listening to this. This campaign does not seem to have an endpoint and is continuing as the American and Israeli war in Iran also continues to grind on. Yeah, put a trans goal on your couch. Thank you, Mia. I have a few more news stories before we close out this episode. Trump has delayed his endorsement in the Republican, Texas primary, to build pressure on the Senate to pass the SAVE Act, the Voting Restriction Act. To gain favor with the president, Ken Paxton has announced he'd back out of the race if the Senate

Starting point is 03:57:07 passes the SAVE Act, which Trump later called his number one priority. Paxton knows that the passing of the act is very unlikely, but by signaling support for the president's number one priority he's hoping to gain favor and maybe even steal the endorsement away from Cornyn or convince Trump not to give an endorsement, which would help him in the runoff election. Okay. Politico has reported that Trump was, quote, irritated when news articles from Axios and the Atlantic published Wednesday, declaring that Trump was quote unquote expected to endorse Cornyn, according to a Republican operative. Trump and others in his orbit hate when stories get out ahead of official announcements, unquote.

Starting point is 03:57:46 I sympathize with the president here. I am also often irritated by news articles from Axios and the Atlantic. Yeah. Aren't we all? That's the thing that can bring us together as a country. Right. It will be interesting to see what Trump does here.

Starting point is 03:58:04 I mean, Trump has previously called Corny like a rhino, and Paxton is way more popular with the megabase, despite having more electoral liabilities for the general election. Yeah. On March 5th, seven of the biggest tech companies signed President Trump's rate payer protection pledge, empowering the private sector to build their own power infrastructure like power plants, microgrids, and substations, while also agreeing to, quote, bring or buy new generation resources and cover the cost of all power delivery infrastructure upgrades required for their data centers, ensuring such expenses are not passed to American households.

Starting point is 03:58:44 unquote, and that is per the White House. So this expounds on the rate player protection pledge that Trump announced during his state of the union address. We have a little bit more details now. The pledge has been signed by Amazon, Google, Meta, Microsoft, OpenAI, Oracle, and XAI. These companies will quote unquote voluntarily negotiate new separate rate structures with utilities and state governments wherever they build new data centers.

Starting point is 03:59:13 and will, quote, commit to pay these rates for the power and related infrastructure brought online to service their data centers, whether they use the electricity or not, unquote. To prevent blackouts and power shortages, the pledge also promises that AI companies and hyperscalers will also, quote, coordinate with grid operators to make backup generation resources available at times of emergency, contributing to a more reliable grid, unquote. This pledge is not legally binding. But like I said, it will empower the private sector to develop power plant infrastructure. Great, scary.

Starting point is 03:59:50 Last Saturday, March 7th, white supremacist Jake Lang, organized a protest outside of the New York City mayor's residence, Gracie Mansion, dubbed, Stop the Islamic Takeover of New York City, Stop New York City Public Muslim Prayer, unquote. Incredibly frustrating guy. Yeah, I know that's his goal, but, like, very frustrating. Well, he's high off the fact that he was able to ignite a news cycle by lying about shit. Yeah, after getting chased out of Minneapolis by people with water pistols and rescued by a trans lady. Now, during this protest on Saturday, two teenagers who traveled from Pennsylvania, Amir Balat and Ibrahim Kiyumi, allegedly attempted to detonate two improvised explicit devices amongst the protesters, and after being apprehended, both suspects stated allegiance with ISIS,

Starting point is 04:00:45 according to U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, J. Clayton. The homemade explosive devices were mason jar-sized and packed with metal shrapnel and contained the high-explosive TAP. Oh, wow. One IED was ignited and thrown towards a group of protesters, another was dropped in front of several NYPD officers, but neither device successfully detonated. It is hard to make bombs. That is why very few domestic terrorists in the U.S. go the bomb route.

Starting point is 04:01:16 Yeah. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche claimed that the bombers, quote, allegedly sought to inflict mass casualties in service to ISIS with the hope of exceeding the carnage of the Boston Marathon bombing, unquote. Belot was asked if he wanted to accomplish something akin to the Boston bombing during interrogation, to which he allegedly replied, no, even. even bigger. It was only three deaths, unquote. During interrogation, Kiyumi stated that he had watched ISIS propaganda videos on his phone. The criminal complaint says that on route to the NYPD precinct, Balot told officers, quote, this isn't a religion that just stands when people talk about the blessed name of the prophet, we take action. If I didn't do it, someone else will come and do it, unquote. And he later pledged allegiance to the Islamic State in writing, along with the phrase, die in your rage.

Starting point is 04:02:08 The only thing weird about it is that there's not a whole lot of that going on right now, but this is very similar to the people who are carrying out sympathetic ISIS attacks during the height of military action in Mosul. Same death. Yeah, the timing is

Starting point is 04:02:24 odd, unusual, yeah, given we're past past the territorial caliphate, etc. They have been propagandizing a bit more in the last five, six months. Yeah. No, and it makes sense that they'd choose this as a target. Yeah.

Starting point is 04:02:39 But thankfully, again, most people who try to make bombs fail, and that was the case this time, too. Yeah. For our last main story, since the war on Iran began, the Trump administration has increasingly been talking about Cuba as being the next target of U.S. intervention. In the immediate aftermath of military strikes in Iran, the Atlantic reported that Trump is eyeing Cuba as the next target was an administration official saying, the president is feeling like, I'm on a role, like this is working, unquote. In a scene and interview about U.S. military success in Iran last Friday,

Starting point is 04:03:17 Trump started talking about Cuba saying, quote, Cuba is going to fall pretty soon. By the way, unrelated, but Cuba is going to fall too. They want to make a deal so badly, they want to make a deal, and so I'm going to put Marco over there and we'll see how that works out, unquote. That same day in Florida, Trump was asked about this Cuba deal and what do it mean for the U.S. And it may be a friendly takeover. It may not be a friendly takeover. It wouldn't matter because they're really in, they're down to, as they say, fumes. They have no energy. They have no money. They're in deep trouble on a humanitarian basis. And we don't want to see that.

Starting point is 04:04:04 may or may not be a quote-unquote friendly takeover. Uh-huh. Yeah, I don't think that's really an option. Yeah, it sounds like he's threatening Batista too, basically, even going back further than that, but yeah. Does he consider Venezuela to have been a friendly takeover? Because he's very friendly with Delcy now, right? You can see her tweeting all the time about their great partnership.

Starting point is 04:04:29 I think he would consider that an unfriendly takeover, which has now become friendly. but I think he's like referring to the amount of like actual like you know kinetic force as a part of a takeover versus just a diplomatic deal done by Rubio. But in his scene and interview from Friday, Trump did specify that the administration is quote unquote really focused on Iran right now and that they have quote plenty of time but Cuba's ready. After 50 years, I've been watching it for 50 years and it's fallen right into my lap because of me, unquote. the day before this Trump mentioned how Rubio wants to finish up operations in Iran before trying anything in Cuba

Starting point is 04:05:10 quote, we could do them all at the same time, but bad things happen. If you watch countries over the years, if you do them all too fast, bad things happen, unquote. Do them. Do them. Do them. Yeah. I see. Fascinating. That's the reference to these regime change, decapitation. Doing the country. Yeah. Right. Got it. Good to know.

Starting point is 04:05:32 At a presentation for the Shield of the Americas on Saturday, Trump said, quote, as we achieve a historic transformation in Venezuela, we're also looking forward to the great change that will soon be coming to Cuba. Cuba's at the end of the line. They have a bad regime, unquote. It is wild to see him just like,

Starting point is 04:05:53 I don't want to be like, you know, like Babe Ruth used to point to where he's going to hit the baseball. That's probably not the best analogy there. You know, I mean, it is bonkers just to see. They're very confident right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 04:06:04 They haven't gotten a serious pushback. You know, we're starting to see gas prices rise. The cost of living is going to rise. But we haven't suffered any sort of major military loss. Yeah. And eight Americans have died in the operations against Iran, right? Yeah. And I doubt Trump has noticed.

Starting point is 04:06:21 I mean, for him, that's not serious. It's not, no. But he seems to have literally shrugged it off, almost in press conferences. We did learn today that a great deal more people suffered more serious injuries when we thought in that particular drone strike in Kuwait. But there won't be electoral consequences, right? I think that's one of the reasons why they like these airstrike-heavy, very light ground footprint models. Yeah.

Starting point is 04:06:43 Because it's not Americans who die. No, it's Iranians who are primarily dying, yeah. Yeah. Shall we close with this brief discussion on proton mail? Yeah, it's important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So last week, 404 media reported that the end-to-end encrypted email service proton mail, quote, helped FBI unmask anonymous stop cop city protester, unquote.

Starting point is 04:07:09 That is their headline. So what happened here is that in January 2024, the FBI sent Swiss authorities a mutual legal assistance treaty request for information tied to the defend the Atlanta forest at protonmail.com account. The FBI believed that whoever had access to this email would likely have administrative access to the now-defunct scenes from the Atlanta Forest blog, which posted sabotage reportbacks, calls to action, and some instructional information on possible criminal acts people could commit. After Swiss authorities verified the FBI's request, Proton Mail was legally required to submit payment data,

Starting point is 04:07:50 which identified a name tied to the account through a credit. credit card. Swiss authorities then forwarded that information to the FBI via the mutual legal assistance treaty. This individual has not been charged with the crime and no email contents were provided to either the Swiss authorities or the FBI. This is Edward Schoen, the head of communications for Proton. Quote, Proton only provides the limited information that we have when issued with a legally binding order from Swiss authorities, which could only happen after all Swiss legal checks are passed. This is an important distinction because Proton operates exclusively under Swiss law. Proton accepts payments via cryptocurrency, cash, and also credit card. If you use a credit card,

Starting point is 04:08:36 we do have access to the payment identifier, which can be used to identify the credit card holder from the card issuer. We check all legal orders received from Swiss authorities, and we understood that a law enforcement officer was shot and explosive devices were involved, and we verified that Swiss legal requirements were met, unquote. That's their main statement regarding the handover of this credit card information. This has always been my understanding of how Protonail works. They are a business. They are not an activist organization. They are a business and Swiss privacy laws are stronger, and they would have not been able

Starting point is 04:09:14 to hand over financial information identifying the person if this account, paid in cash mailed to Proton or via cryptocurrency, which would have been way more difficult to identify. Depending on the crypto, but yeah. I've operated many, many Proton mail accounts through the years. I've never tied any of them to financial information. You do not need to pay for most of the services that they provide. Like, I even have Proton VPN without paying for like the expanded VPN option. Yeah, they've always been very clear that they're a Swiss-based company and they comply with

Starting point is 04:09:46 Swiss privacy law. Yeah, this has happened before. They have, they have responded to FBI requests they have responded to. I know they've responded to requests from other countries in Europe. There's one around 2020. I know they respond to French authorities about environmental protesters. Yeah. The fact that Swiss authorities did send this information to FBI is newsworthy. This is notable. But this doesn't mean that Proton is getting increasingly compliant. Like, this is from early 2024, following the standard procedure via the mutual legal assistance treaty. And importantly, the actual end-to-end email contents were not given because Proton themselves don't even have access to those. Yeah. And for clarity, Proton has given info to the FBI before I found a case back in 2022

Starting point is 04:10:34 where the FBI was able to get data on a U.S. Proton mail user who was being investigated for harassment. They responded in 2021 to 6,995 legal orders and, a company. complied with about 6,000 of them in 2021. It was about 5,000. In 2020, about 3,000. I think this generally reflects the rate at which proton has grown rather than them becoming more likely to respond to these requests. Yeah.

Starting point is 04:11:00 And by responding to the request, that doesn't really give us a good insight into what they're actually responding with. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's the other thing, right? Like, this person's email inbox was not opened to the FBI. That is a different thing. very important.

Starting point is 04:11:16 It was the name linked to their credit card. Yeah, I think like you said, this is reportable, but it was a little oversold in the headline. I know if one does that these days, but... Yeah. It's good for people to understand how Proton actually works as, like, a privacy email. Yes, yes. And they are not an activist group.

Starting point is 04:11:35 And that is an important distinction. They are a Swiss business that will follow the law. And if you understand how to use Proton as a service to maximize your privacy, then it can be a very useful service. but it will not protect you in every way if you're handing them over payment information or information tied to your name that is not encrypted,

Starting point is 04:11:54 that can open the possibility of an account being identifiable. Yeah. So a lot of people had contacted me about a proton mail address. Hopefully now you have the information that you need to decide if that is something you want to use or not. Speaking of proton mail.

Starting point is 04:12:12 Yeah, speaking of proton mail, we still have a proton mail. address. Now you know a little bit more about how you can use it if you want to. Coolzone tips at proton.me. If you would like to send us a pitch for you or your boss to be on Behind the Bastards, if you would like us to plug your book. If you want us to talk about your fucking timeshare, you can send all of that to Coolzone Media at iHeartMedia.com, especially if it's the last one, I will block you. Oh, no, I'm looking for a time share. That seems like a good investment. But that is the email for non-tips, for things that are not related to news tips.

Starting point is 04:12:50 You can use the Coolzone Media at iHeartMedia.com email address. Talking of tips, I have a tip, Garrison, for marketing people. If you email anyone 10 times a day, you've got to piss them off. They're not going to want to fucking hear from you. Stop it. Some of you aren't well. You're not emailing them. You've got an AI doing it.

Starting point is 04:13:11 It's got to be AI. Yeah, that's not a person. If it's a marketing person, there are other people who email 10 times a day. Yeah, I mean, this was a marketing person who was emailing some of our work addresses, try and get us to plug their podcast, which are on our podcast, it's to stop it, grow up, have some self-respect. Yeah. What's really fun is if you go on Reddit, you can find a subreddit for those kind of marketers,

Starting point is 04:13:38 where they'll complain about journalists not responding. and it's beautiful. Yeah, you can't see because the podcast, I'm raising both my middle fingers at this time. Anyway, this has been us whining about marketing people. I hope you all have a lovely week. I will be as a hug as many of those proteinis as I can. Garrison, if you want to start really bulking up,

Starting point is 04:14:05 you need at least 100 grams of protein a day. And there's tin and each other's martini. That's only 10 espresso Proteinis You can pour them in a camel back And go about your day Just make sure you dip the end of the camel back In the buffalo dry rub

Starting point is 04:14:24 A cup of the buffalo dry rub for the nozzle Have a little shaker Have a little We reported the news Oh God, did we? We reported the news Hey, we'll be back Monday With more episodes

Starting point is 04:14:42 Every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, CoolzoneMedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here

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Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 223

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