Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 236

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Starting point is 00:02:31 if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Mia, are you excited today to learn about Gregory Hay-Bovino? You know, I would describe myself going into this as an amateur but enthusiast, Greg Bovino hater. I am very familiar with his work in Chicago. I'm familiar with his work in Minneapolis. I am less familiar with his other work. I'm excited to tell the higher tier of of one of the worst people we've ever had. Yeah, really a gem of the American law enforcement system.

Starting point is 00:03:10 We're going to talk mostly today about Greg Bovino's post-career pivot, which seems mostly to be asking to have his old career back. But we can talk also a little bit about his previous career work when he was down here. He was in IB, he was in El Centro, he was in Blythe for a while. But last week, Mia, he was in Portugal. Oh, boy. Yeah, do you want to guess why? You know, okay, going through my history of Portugal, it's a country that had a left-wing military coup that didn't go far enough by which they never quite got rid of all the fascists.

Starting point is 00:03:45 Yeah, a country that notably has a long history of fascism. Yes. Which is why he was there, actually. He was there in a remigration summit. Oh, no. Yeah, like. Oh. So I'm just going to use the conference's own website here.

Starting point is 00:04:02 It is a set fiscal, cultural, economic, social, political, and logistical policies whose objective is to prevent population replacement through the reversal of migratory flows. There's nothing there about undocumented people. There's nothing there about visas, right? Because this isn't about that. This is about race and ethnicity and removing people who do not line up with what you consider to be the national. race.

Starting point is 00:04:33 Yeah, this is, this is the ethnic cleansing campaign. Yeah. I mean, obviously there's, like, a lot of parallels in the history of all of these countries, but, like, I think if you look at the most immediate one, it's, oh, this is like the shit the Nazis were talking about doing while they were building the concentration camps with, like, Jewish people, right? Is that they were going to, like, deport them all to Israel or whatever? Yeah, we'll keep moving them east.

Starting point is 00:04:57 At the very least, this is an ethnic cleansing plan. Yeah, that's the explicit goal, right? There is not mention in that definition of undocumented people, even the way that Bavino prefers to refer to it as illegal aliens, a term he uses a lot. And I think he sometimes uses it in quite elastic fashion. But even in this case, that is not what this conference is about. No, yeah.

Starting point is 00:05:20 This is very much a conference about a white Europe. Yeah. It was organized by Martin Selner. Selner is a neo-Nazi who famously exchanged emails with Brent. and Tarrant at a Christchurch shooter. Oh, great. Yeah. Pavino spoke about this at the conference

Starting point is 00:05:39 and he said that they hadn't met in person before, but after talking for a little while, they found they were on the same sheet of music. Incredible. Yeah, you've got to Google people, man. And he Google Martin Selner, and the first thing that comes up is that he emailed Brent and Tarrant unless I guess that's not an issue.

Starting point is 00:05:56 Yeah, right. Judging by the general company he kept, I don't think that's an issue because he's joined Like Spanish Vox party are there. Afde are there, AFD, the German far right party, racists from all over Europe. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:06:11 We also saw the sort of racist in America who I would describe as like fancy racists, the race science guys, right? Oh, they're kind of like the Bray people. Yeah. Is it those guys or is it the kind of newer gen, like, tech fascist people? So there's overlap between them.

Starting point is 00:06:29 No, it's like the Vida kind of tendency. I know. Should we explain what the V-Dair? Yeah, a little bit. Go ahead, man, yeah, take it. Yeah, well, I was just going to say, at some point we're going to have Mali on. I am what you would call a,

Starting point is 00:06:46 I guess technically a professional Nazi identifier or whatever, but I'm like a low-level one, and everyone else in this network is a very high-level one. So we'll probably have Mali on at some point to actually really go into V-Dair and like that kind of shit. But, yeah, it's broadly speaking, it's Peter Brimelow's anti-immigration website. We're not talking about anti-immigration in terms of discussions about what visas we should give, right? We're talking about like white nationalism.

Starting point is 00:07:17 Yeah, these are like Nazi Nazis. These are people that, you know, like I don't think the US has ever really had what would in Europe is called like the Cordon Sanitaire, which is supposed to separate out like the mainstream right-wing parties from like the Nazis. Like, we've never had that. So Vidaire has been kind of more in anti-immigration circles. But it's also like, those are people that, you know, even you're kind of like really, really far right, like people on the radio or politicians don't associate with because they are fairly open Nazis.

Starting point is 00:07:51 Yeah, there was some stuff that traced back to Vida in Agenda 47. I remember thinking like, this ain't good. Yeah. V-Dair, just for people who, like, have lived a blessed life and don't know, refers to Virginia Dare, who is, I believe, the first white child or the first child, first girl. I don't know, maybe there was a boy before, but I think it was the first white child born in the United States of settlers. One of the Roanoke people, right?

Starting point is 00:08:18 Yeah. Which is, I don't know, like, maybe you motherfuckers could have made, like, the Roanoke people and disappeared, but. Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately, Meir. No. Unfortunately, they didn't, and they didn't, unfortunately, assimilate into indigenous cultures the way that the rono people almost certainly did.

Starting point is 00:08:35 And instead, decided to do, yeah, half a millennia long campaign of terror and bloodshed. Yeah. It's interesting to see Bovino, I guess, like aligning with these. European anti-migration discussion is different. It's not really dealing so much in undocumented people. It's dealing with people under various legal statuses. I'm not saying there aren't undocumented people in Europe there are, but the discussion there has moved past that in a toxic way

Starting point is 00:09:05 in a way that it's like we need to remove these people, even though they do have legal documentation that allows them to be here. If the state says you're cool or you're not cool, that's not my concern. But it's still alarming to see the bigotry move past even that, right, without the pretense of enforcing the law. Yeah. And just simply being about removing people who we don't think we want to live next to because they're not white. You know, one of the groups that you talked about there, like the AFD in Germany, like, this has been happening for like a long time.

Starting point is 00:09:38 But one of their like slogans is remove kebab. Yeah. And that's just literally like remove all Turkish people from the country. Yeah. And the AFD wants to do this. There are documents that have leaked from them that are them planning at conferences to, okay, this is how we're going to remove the non-white people. This is how we're going to remove the Jewish people. this is not even like the pretense of anything as to do with the law.

Starting point is 00:09:59 This is just like we are the original Nazis. We want to do ethnic cleansing against non-white people. Yeah. Most of the people at the conference are peddling great replacement shit, right? And they genuinely believe that that is something that exists and that they can reverse it. At the conference, Bevino gave an interview. I found it on a website called Braise Info, E-R-E-I-Z-H. It's a Breton and French language website.

Starting point is 00:10:26 It's also published I saw on a couple of other substacks, so I wonder if it was a pool interview that he gave. There are various people translated it. I should note that I translated it from French. I don't think Bovino speaks French, so I'm imagining they translated it from English to French. And there is an editor's note that says the editor was an AI. Oh, great.

Starting point is 00:10:48 So any of the quotations here, we can't attribute them directly, right? Like, we can't assume that those are the words he said in English because it's been through three layers of bullshit. So I understand that going in. Nonetheless, I think it's a very interesting insight into how Greg Bovino sees the world. And what's interesting about that is, like, Greg Bevino was very popular in Border Patrol. He was, by the standards of the patrol, a good Border Patrol agent, right? He was liked. And I don't think he developed these opinions.

Starting point is 00:11:23 in a few months since he retired. No. And like a lot of the way he talks is not dissimilar to the way Border Patrol agents talk among themselves, right? I think that like what is interesting about this is not like Greg Bevino is essentially sharing a platform

Starting point is 00:11:39 and agreeing with Nazis. It is after 25, 26 years in more than 90, 30 years in the Border Patrol, this is what the Border Patrol formed him into. Yeah. Because the point I want to make here is this shit is not something we can easily reform.

Starting point is 00:11:59 This is not something we can train. If this country gets through this and in 2028, yes, we have another election. God. We can't fucking let this keep happening, right? The tool that Bovino was deploying in Minneapolis, in Chicago, in Charlotte, in all these other cities in Los Angeles. in Los Angeles, right? Yeah, Memphis. Like, New Orleans, like,

Starting point is 00:12:27 yeah, like all over the country. Yeah. Yeah, it is a tool that Democrats built as well as Republicans. Yeah. And the place he's at, he got to,

Starting point is 00:12:38 with eight years working under Barack Obama, with four years working under Joe Biden, like, we need to understand what we are diverting a fire hose of money towards. Yeah. With the Border Patrol, right? And, uh, guess we can just start with where Greg Pavino started, which was comparing himself to Nazi

Starting point is 00:12:56 General Irwin Rommel. Great. Yeah, right out the gate. He also compared himself to Patton and T.E. Lawrence. You know, like, historically, it makes you wonder. Yeah. I think he probably has some kind of clean Vermark thing going on in his head where they're just soldiers and he can respect both of them for their tactical prowess, you know?

Starting point is 00:13:15 Like, he says, quote, they grasp the overall strategy where others in government or in the political class did not see it or refuse to see it. Strategic expertise combined with field command, especially in chaotic, exposed events is very rare. I also listened to a couple of podcasts that Bovino did with a former Border Patrol agent who used to work in San Diego sector. And you heard it's a lot, right? Talk about battle. Talk about soldiers. Bovino sees himself as like a general and Border Patrol as his soldiers fighting in a war.

Starting point is 00:13:47 Yeah. That's not what they do. Oh. Clearly they see it as that. I understand why, because, like, they've got around the country generating so much ill will that, yeah, everywhere they go, people fucking hate them. Your actual job, and this only thing we saw in Chicago, is dragging, screaming babies out of their fucking homes and putting them in camps. Yeah. I think this is going back to the thing you were talking about earlier about this not being something that's reformable, is that, yeah, that task is what Border Patrol was built for.

Starting point is 00:14:19 that's what it was doing under all of these administrations, just fucking dragging people screaming from their homes in the dark of the night. And like, the only way you can get people to do that is by creating a crucible that creates Nazis. You can't have compassion for the people whose families you're tearing apart, right? Like, people should read Jen Byrd's book if they want to know what going through Border Patrol Academy is like,

Starting point is 00:14:41 um, you know, so they'll give a trigger warning that Jen was sexually assaulted and writes about that. Boyle Patrol has a very high rate of sexual. assault, right? Border Patrol is 95% male. I have seen people in Border Patrol who do have compassion and then I have not seen them anymore. Like it drives those people away. Yeah. They have a high dropout rate and like I think there are people who genuinely believe that what they will do is keep their community safe and rescue people who get stuck crossing the border in the desert, adjudicate them a fair process, deliver them to a fair process and they will do the best

Starting point is 00:15:18 they can, I don't see those people remain in the patrol for very long, right? Like, I interact with, obviously, like, the stand to this podcast is that you should remain silent, not talk to cops, but, like, I, uh, I interact with Border Patrol agents more often than most people do, right? That is the nature of my job and the place I live and the places I go. And, like, I think these days, they're recruiting they're doing, they're getting a lot of people who are coming in starting like this. Yeah. But I don't think that's, that's always been the case. Like, I understand that there are people also in communities along the border where there's very little economic opportunity and then this is the only chance they have. But I see those people get spat

Starting point is 00:15:51 out. Like you said, Mia, if you are going to train people to tear families apart, then you have to train them to hate. And I think that is what we see in this, right? Like, yeah, it's really interesting. Vino tells his own story a little bit, and he tells his own story on this podcast I listen to as well. He starts with Operation Don't Let Em Ride. You're familiar with Operation Don't Let Em Ride? No. Okay. So, So you have to go all the way back to 2010. Oh, God. In Las Vegas, Nevada.

Starting point is 00:16:21 Little tiny baby Mia. Yeah. 13-year-old Mia. Oh, God, fuck me. I feel old. I was in grad school. And Greg Bovino, I think he's the Blythe station at that time. And they do this operation at a bus station in Nevada.

Starting point is 00:16:43 It lasts for 60 minutes. it gets called off. The Nevada Senator is pissed off about it. Their goal, they said, was to apprehend traffickers and to rescue people who have been trafficked or smuggled, right? In a community meeting, which was convened because the whole Latino community in Las Vegas was like, the fuck, right? This internal enforcement was not a common thing at the time. Paul Beeson, who was chief agent of the humor sector at the time, said, quote, in that short period of time, We did not apprehend anybody we felt was actively engaged in alien smuggling. We did not encounter any human trafficking victims.

Starting point is 00:17:22 So to me, that doesn't sound like a win. Yeah, so they were just rounding people up at bus stops. Correct. They went to like a bus depo station. Yeah, yeah, like one of the big bus. Yeah. And they just rounded people up. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:17:38 So his interview with this former Border Patrol agent, he said that they apprehended more than one alien. per minute of the operation. That was called Operation. Don't Let Them Ride. And that operation was set for about three days. It lasted 60 minutes. But the interesting thing is we caught more aliens than there were minutes in the operation. It was a very successful operation.

Starting point is 00:18:03 Very successful. Yes, sir. Harry Reid called Hussein Obama and had that shut down immediately. But we never forgot that. We never forgot the vast amount of criminals that we apprehended in 2010 on those bus checks in Las Vegas and the pervasive problem, even then that we solved. A lot of that problem came in under Barack Hussein Obama as well as Bill Reeflin. I want to note the newspapers at the time reported a number that was more than two dozen.

Starting point is 00:18:37 Technically, let's say the operation lasted 60 minutes. That is more than two dozen. It would be unusual to report a number of 60. saying more than two dozen, right? Yeah. What is more interesting to me is that this operation was supposed to find people who had been trafficked and people who were trafficking and it failed. Greg Bovino seems to have seen it as a success because it just found people.

Starting point is 00:19:01 Yeah. Right? People who were undocumented, people who were otherwise an infraction of immigration laws, but who were not involved in trafficking. because for him, it seems like the goal was slightly different and therefore the criteria for success are slightly different, right? And this kind of fits into this narrative of him. So like I can see what he, it is, especially in the context of him talking to the remigration conference,

Starting point is 00:19:27 for him it's a win. But for the explicit goals of the Board of Patrol at that time, it's not. So he cites this as a beginning of his journey to where he is, right? as a guy they went to for massive surges of Border Patrol agents into cities tearing families apart. And I think if we see it the way he sees it, then we can see why he sees it as a success. Levino in his early career had worked a lot in the Alcentro sector, right? And he eventually became Chief Patrol agent in the Alcentric sector. He was in Bortak for a while.

Starting point is 00:19:59 I've read a Defense University paper that interviewed him. He was in Honduras with Bortak training Border Patrol there. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, I mean, everyone should read Empire of Borders. Everyone should read Border Patrol Nation. But, like, the DHS has done this for years, right? Funded, armed and equipped and trained Border Patrol units all over the Americas, because that is how America externalizes its border.

Starting point is 00:20:24 Yeah. In a very similar way to the way Europe does with Frontex and, you know, like the deals like Gaddafi and then the successive governments in Libya and stuff like that. Yes. And the people they're training there, it's like school the Americas shit are just like actual monsters. Like, yeah, I mean, the, uh, Sally Hayden's book, my third time we drowned is one of the more heartbreaking books that's available for a human to read. But like, if you want to know about the fucked up stuff Europe's doing in Libya, it's a good book. Yeah. But yes, you're this, it moves the violence away from the metropolis. Yeah. Right. It moves it further. I've seen this from my own eyes, right? I've seen what happens in Panama, not necessarily, but the actions of any border patrols there, but just by forcing people to take that route. Like I've seen how the externalization of our borders. kills people, and I have seen how the Biden administration funded deportations of people who I can't find any criminal record for. And I have seen literally babies taken out of people's hands.

Starting point is 00:21:19 Yeah. And they were deporting young men at that point. But I look at, I've literally watched families torn apart right there just after crossing the Darien Gap, and it's heartbreaking. Yeah. Talking of heartbreaking, we haven't done an ad pivot. Oh, boy. Hopefully these, these products and services will fix your heartbreak. Oh, God. Yeah, here's an advert for whiskey. Okay, we are back. So one of the things Bevino did alert in this interview

Starting point is 00:21:56 is he sought to kind of distinguish himself from what he calls status quo bureaucrats. He's not wrong that one of the roles of a chief in a sector is to speak to the press, right? He seems to be very upset that Roddy Scott and Tom Homan didn't speak to the press when they started these big operations. He says, quote,

Starting point is 00:22:16 the CBP Commissioner Rodney Scott and Borders Tsar, Tom Homan, not only had no experience was full enforcement of migration laws, but refused to speak publicly during operations. Their reluctance triggered the unique situation I mentioned above, and either sought nor asked to become the public faith of the operation, but for this type of operation, there can only be one. The responsibility fell to me. When you listened to this interviews he did when he was in the patrol,

Starting point is 00:22:40 he wasn't as critical of his leadership as he is now. Yeah. Probably for the very obvious reasons. But like, the let down by leadership thing, is a thing. We've seen this on the right so many times, right? Yeah, it's the classic backstab that's employed by one Adolf Hitler. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, and in many cases thereafter.

Starting point is 00:22:59 And he kind of seeks in this to differentiate field agents from, like, I guess he, what he calls status quo bureaucrats, right? And he is genuinely very popular among field agents, like, and he did, like, grow through the Border Patrol, right? Like, he's not a guy who, like, came from somewhere else. Like, he has a 30-year career. He's done, like, mountain interdiction stuff down in the Hocumba wilderness. Like, he's definitely, like, had his boots on the ground.

Starting point is 00:23:26 I think they like that. And I think for him, that gives him, like, the, he feels like he speaks for the border patrol and that, like, these people who are, like, bureaucrats are what is constraining him and his guys from doing what they want to do. And like, it's really interesting to see the terms how he describes what they want to do, right? He called the withdrawal from Minneapolis a surrender. He called protesters the opposition in this podcast I listen to. He calls protesters pro-fascist, which is very, given the company he keeps his fucking ridiculous.

Starting point is 00:24:03 I feel like the other people at that conference can't be happy with that. Yeah, that's the thing, right? Where are the fascists here down there? Yeah, they're not hiding it. Like, it's very interesting to see him, like, not willing to kind of surrender that term. You know what I mean? Like, to not quite say it at the same time as, like, yeah, there are other people at the conference who are like, no, where they're fascists?

Starting point is 00:24:25 What are you talking about? They're not pro-fascists. They hate us. Like, he's still, like, one step removed from joining his buddies there. Another thing I found interesting was he says, border patrol is often referred to as, quote, the federal law enforcement Marine Corps. What? Does anyone say that?

Starting point is 00:24:43 I've not heard them say that. No, I, I, I, what? I've never heard that. It's a very strange, I'm guessing what he's referring to is like, the Marine Corps has these expeditionary units which can deploy very quickly to conflict zones. Like, we saw in Iran, right? Yeah. And I'm guessing that's what he means.

Starting point is 00:24:59 Like, they're the hit squad. Yeah, they're the, like, oh my God, we found, like, four children sleeping in a bedroom. We have to go, we have to go send their, like, tactical squad after them. Yeah. There are first line of defense against tiny babies. Yeah. And against like Americans exercising their First Amendment rights. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:18 When people were in the street in Portland, it was Border Patrol, they sent. Yep. It was Bortak. Yeah. Yeah. Right. They do have something of a history of being the federal government's hit squad. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:28 When they want to stamp on Americans, they do send the Border Patrol. Interestingly, he went on to cite the Old Miss Riot. Are you familiar with the Ole Miss Riot? It sounds vaguely familiar, but I'm not sure. Yeah. I mean, you can surmise what's going to happen, right? It's a university in the South. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:48 What happens is that James Meredith, a black man, had attempted to register at the school several times. He had been prevented by racists, including the governor. And at one point, JFK sent Border Patrol agents along with federal, I think they were cross sworn as marshals maybe, to accompany him to register. They ended up surrounded in the, lyceum, 28 federal agents were shot.

Starting point is 00:26:13 Jesus. Yeah, no, this is like, they had a fucking fight about it. Like, two of the people surrounding the Lyceum were killed. I'm not sure I've ever in my entire life seen a government deployment and thought you should have sent the National Guard, but like, yeah, I guess you should have sent the National Guard. Jesus, yeah, but the way Southern racist really, I guess, love shooting beds to oppose integration. Yeah, like, I did. In this case, they sent the regular ass army to come get them out. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:44 I think this was the era when they felt like national guards in the south were not entirely trustworthy. Yeah, well, yeah, you'd have to do a Trump style. Like, we're sending the fucking, like, California National Guard to Mississippi or whatever. Yeah, yeah. They normally send, like, one of those QRS, like, 80-second airborne or something like that. Yeah, I, wow, I can't believe I'm in a position where I support the deployment of U.S. troops against America. Yeah, I know. How is it possible?

Starting point is 00:27:12 I know. It's a wild scenario. I guess it's like because they're trying to do a lynching. So, yeah. Like in that case, yeah, maybe stop the lynching. But it's a really interesting choice because he talks, he's talking about how Border Patrols, you know, like had this long history of doing this.

Starting point is 00:27:28 And again, like, he's not wrong. And I guess maybe the Ole Miss thing plays a part in their mythos because they were fighting against the racists. I can see why they would want to hold on that. It's interesting to see him doing that at the racist conference. Yeah. It's like, oh no, no, no. We are a different kind of racist. We are California racist. We are not like the primitive Southern racist. We have advanced our level of racism

Starting point is 00:27:54 to cleansing levels. Yeah, like, and he's very popular amongst the like, we're a different kind of racist, racist, right? Like, the VDA tendency is the like, quote unquote, scientific racists. Yeah. And by the way, I I want to clarify before I get screamed at. The thing I just said was like his perspective, not mine. Jesus Christ, fuck these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of them.

Starting point is 00:28:16 Yeah, yeah, please don't clip me around in context. So, like, he then goes on after he's explained this to explain, like, his history of migration. He says that around in the year 2000, quote unquote, the floodgates open. His basic thesis is summed up in his statement from 2000 to 2026, our borders were nothing but speed bump. illegals and smugglers need that once they cross the border, they were virtually safe from any consequences. A couple things there that obviously includes Trump's first term and part of the second term.

Starting point is 00:28:48 Amnesia about Trump having a first term seems to be quite a common issue on the right. It's really astonishing. And on the left, too. I don't know. I'm seeing it more and more. Certain people who will go unmentioned who were working for Blackwater under the first Trump administration. I couldn't be bad.

Starting point is 00:29:04 Yeah, it's very interesting to see this narrative. Not an uncommon one, right? Like, he talks about how he wrote a paper called illegal aliens and destruction of natural resources. So he has two master's degrees. One is from the National Defense University. And I'm not sure if that's his second master's thesis, which I'd be interested to read it, but I haven't been able to find it. I'm not sure NDU makes master stuff public.

Starting point is 00:29:29 I think generally how it works is you have to opt to make it public. Like, I'm interested to know is this kind of eco-nativism? Is it like carrying capacity shit? Like what? It kind of, the other thing kind of reminds me is like, you get like, you get this from like Scandinavian racists where they're like,

Starting point is 00:29:44 they have this line about the welfare state, like the welfare state is a fire and you can only have so many people huddled around the fire. Yeah. And it's like, okay. Yeah. Well, God.

Starting point is 00:29:55 We see this lean, like we saw a lot from Mike Lee, right, when he was attempting another pathetic excuse for selling off our public lands. Like, yeah. Lee was saying how like so much of our wilderness areas is destroyed by. migrants, so we have to destroy them and sell them to protect them. The logic of Mike Lee

Starting point is 00:30:11 is unknowable, but I'm interested to read that. If anyone, if anyone's like a library ninja, get in touch, I would, I'd love to, I'd love to find that out. He spent a great deal of time explaining his 100 million number, and he refers to these people as illegal aliens, right? He contrasts this with the number of 20 million. He says that comes from pure research, and he says it hasn't changed since the 1970s. What? That is not a statistic which is played out in Pew's published documents. I'm looking here at a 2023 paper from Pew.

Starting point is 00:30:49 The number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States, 1990, 3.5 million, 2008.6, 2015, 11.0, thanks Obama, and up to 14 million in 2023. He claims it's been 20 since the 1970s. Obviously, he's not giving a source here, but he claims Pew has said that, and that's not what I found from Pew. He sort of arrives at this hundred million dollar number.

Starting point is 00:31:14 First, he said he was looking at some stuff from Investment Bank, Bear Stearns. I don't know what he was looking at. Why? Yeah, it's very strange. He then goes on to give the only hard statistics he gives, and if he's talking about Charlotte, North Carolina here when they were doing Operation Charlotte's Web,

Starting point is 00:31:30 estimates indicated that 30% or more of commuters who are no longer traveling. This means at least 30% that there were most likely illegal immigrants. This is based on traffic delays. He's getting the amount of time people spending traffic jet.

Starting point is 00:31:42 Like he's going on Google Maps. This is a massive logical leap. He then says, that's about a quarter of Charlotte's commuters, 30%, not a quarter. And this figure, you guessed it, fits perfectly with the total of 100 million out of 420 million

Starting point is 00:31:56 people in the United States. I estimate that 100 million are illegal immigrants. Same as the observation for children. absent from Charlotte schools. More than 30% of students were missing. These were, of course, illegal children or children of illegal immigrants. The category of illegal children,

Starting point is 00:32:12 fascinating choice of words. Oh, God. I'm guessing he's talking about undocumented kids or kids whose parents are undocumented of separate categories there. But, like, there are many reasons. I don't think we have to explain this to listeners why some people might not have wanted to be out and about

Starting point is 00:32:28 or at school when board patrol are dragging people out of car. and smashing their windows. Yeah, this is an extremely common thing, which is like, yeah. Yeah, like, not wanting to die. I want to point this out, too. Like, they shot, like, American citizens.

Starting point is 00:32:41 Not that it's, like, worse to shoot an American citizen than a non-citizen, but, like, they did that. Everyone, everyone knew that they had done that. Yeah. Like, they did that in Chicago. Yeah. Like, yeah, they did it in Chicago. They were going to go do it again in Minneapolis.

Starting point is 00:32:53 Like, yeah. Obviously, they shot protesters. They also just shot random people, like, who they were like, oh, you're non-white. Fuck you, right? Like, it's like, that. kind of shit. People who got in most of the instance we've seen that what they have said is a person tried to ram them with their car and most of the times we have seen video evidence.

Starting point is 00:33:10 It certainly don't look like that to me. No. Yeah. Yeah, this idea that 30% of students have their undocumented people is ludicrous. Yeah. They were in Charlotte in like middle to late November. There's a time when American just often travel. Don't go to school. Right. They have this Thanksgiving thing here. And people like to enjoy time with their families. He then goes on to talk about the differences between US and Europe. There's a phrase here that I want to read. Again, I want you to understand that this is translated twice. Uncontrolled immigration to the United States now poses the greatest threat to our culture and our very existence.

Starting point is 00:34:01 This goes for you in Europe too. Even when we manage to get past these cumbersome bureaucrats and politicians, the grassroots will take care of it for us. The precise tactics for removing those who, need to be removed may take different forms in Europe and the United States. The grassroots will take care of it for us is between M-Dashes. I don't know if he means the grassroots will vote them out. Otherwise, that seems like a pogrom, right?

Starting point is 00:34:29 Like, yeah, that's not, that's not good. Yeah. Yeah, that just seems like an ethnic cleansing campaign conducted by people. I want to be like, like, but. Because that's a really scary concept, right? Yeah, but also, yeah, it's. an AI translation that was then translated by you. I don't know how your French is these days.

Starting point is 00:34:48 My French is fine, but like... Yeah. I forget who said all translation is an act of violence, but, like, humans doing translation is an act of violence. AI doing translations is like the fucking Future Terminator. Yeah. Bullshit where the machines have killed everyone. Yeah, like, a lot of really is lost in translation.

Starting point is 00:35:09 In between the M-Dashes, the French is La Mass Populaire, son charterer for new. So, yeah, come at me, French speakers. Let me know if you think there's a better translation for that. They then goes on to try and not blame Trump, which is interesting, said, I don't believe Trump has abandoned his campaign promise. I believe that his advisors do not bring him back to reality on the ground. And then I've skipped a little here.

Starting point is 00:35:33 If I had to do it again, I would have brief Trump directly several times rather than relying on this inner circle who might have interests elsewhere. Trump is the best president I've ever worked for. I believe he will return to that campaign promise soon. Again, it's kind of a fashy thing, right? Like, it wasn't the leader, it wasn't the dear leader. It was some people who failed to reflect the dear leader's thought. Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:53 It's very interesting to see him speaking so clearly this way. Like, there's two ways he could be going with this. He could be angling for his job back. To be clear, right, the reason we don't have Norman Buffino anymore, in my opinion, is that after ICE and then CBP, both murdered U.S. citizens, and the plain light of day on camera and then took to the television to lie about those US citizens

Starting point is 00:36:18 and the hours after they murdered them, they became too toxic for even the Trump administration to touch. Yeah, they were staggeringly unpopular. Everyone fucking hated them. Yeah, you literally lost like the old guys with NRA hats at the gun range who I sometimes talk to.

Starting point is 00:36:35 Like, yeah, fucking, again, I can't keep coming back to like, they lost fucking Kurt Warner who like, is like a quarterback who has never once talked about politics ever and is like, like made like a documentary that was like a bunch about like his like faith journey, right? And they like when,

Starting point is 00:36:54 when Kurt Warner is being like, hey, what the fuck? You've lost, you're losing the conservative football guys. Yeah. I mean, you shoot a white man on his knees in the street in the back.

Starting point is 00:37:06 Yeah. While you're beating him up. Yeah. That's how you lose Americans. Yeah, that's how you lose barstool. Like, it's, it's hideous. Yeah. He kind of has two choices, right?

Starting point is 00:37:18 Like, he can, and he can go into the consulting world. He can go into the grifting world, right, and just become like a podcast grifter, welcome to the club. Or he can go into politics. And I wonder which, like, he's kind of left two of those pathways open, right? Like, he kind of podcast grifter or politics. Well, and you can do both now, too, I guess. That's true.

Starting point is 00:37:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah. See the head of the FBI. It was too much for Dan Bonchino. He retired and returned to the pod face. I guess I guess I guess I guess it's like our noble like health and human services secretary. The latest shit eating Kennedy or whatever like can still do that shit. But yeah, the serial podcast guest. I just want to come back to like we need to reflect on this now, right?

Starting point is 00:38:06 Like we're doing primaries for the midterms right now. The Democrats have doubled. down on same old shit, almost everywhere across the country. Like, we have seen some better candidates, right? But, like, I understand that, like, the pathway to a beautiful life is not through the Democratic Party. But if they are incapable of seeing that this isn't something that we can reform, if they do what Biden did in 2020, which is like, oh, they just need more money.

Starting point is 00:38:30 Yeah. This ratchet will continue to only move in one direction, which is towards a brutalization of more people. Yeah. Just on a very basic level, like, how. Having a massive institutional apparatus that produces Nazis and gives them the authority to do the thing that the Nazis want to do is not a way that any kind of democracy can survive. Yeah. And that that's what we've seen.

Starting point is 00:38:54 To paraphrase, we have created an entity which is exempt from the law in order to enforce it. Yeah. We can't keep up with that. And like, now is a moment, I guess, it demands bravery. And from the Democrats, I've seen cowardice. Yeah. And like, if they continue to be cowards right now, we're going to go so far down this path that there's no coming back. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:17 And I don't fucking know. But I think that's something we really need to reflect on. Yeah. We have 20,000 ofinos. Yeah. Who we've given guns and training and authority to. Yeah. And who we've allowed to kill people in our streets and not face accountability.

Starting point is 00:39:37 Right? Yeah. Like, I am not a county attorney appreciated generally, but like it makes me happy to see that Hennepin County attorney go after the ICE agent who shot someone through their front door and they lied about it. Like, if a liberal democracy can't do any of that kind of stuff,

Starting point is 00:39:54 then it's worthless. It doesn't mean anything anymore. Yeah. And it won't be a democracy afterwards, right? Yeah, it'll die. It made its own bed to die on. There's examples of this fucking everywhere, right? but like the Biden administration was tragedy as farce of like Allende promoting Pinochet.

Starting point is 00:40:13 Yeah. Like that's a thing. That's a thing that he did. He promoted Pinochet, right? Yeah. Like if you don't get rid of the people who want to fucking kill you and you instead give them more power, they're going to fucking kill you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:28 And like what Biden tried to, they tried pretty hard to retire Bavino because he would talk a lot about the situation at the border and Biden administration. but they didn't. No, they didn't. And then also, like, they made more of them. Yeah, and also they threw as much money, like the money that your kid doesn't get for free meals. It's because Border Patrol has Blackhawks. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:48 Yeah. That was a heartwarming, an inspiring episode of It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart. Yeah. But, hey, we beat the Nazis once, we can do it again. Yeah, and Minneapolis beat these people. That's the other thing, right? Like, they won. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:05 They came out and they stood together as a community. They didn't focus on trivial bullshit that divides them. They looked out for one another. Border Patrol thought they were in a battle. And if they were in a battle, then they did lose it. They surrendered, right? Yeah. And that's also not to say that there aren't still, like, horrifying shit happening there, right?

Starting point is 00:41:23 Like, there's still raids going on. You're absolutely correct. Yeah. And that, like, people aren't dealing with the many other ills for capitalism and a distance under the state as it is today. But, like, they were not able. to make those people cower in fear. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:38 And that has shown the rest of the country how brave we can be together. And I just don't think we should forget that. Yeah. Osiaga, with four nights at residents in downtown Montreal, flights from Porter Airlines, two weekend gold tickets, and $1,000 of cash.

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Starting point is 00:42:25 The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called, Hey Jonas. We're here, since everyone has a podcast, we wanted to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It was the same thing with Slow Hands.

Starting point is 00:42:37 Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew.

Starting point is 00:43:07 Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King. Recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real House Wise franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the T everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game.

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Starting point is 00:44:59 At first glance, these movements appear to have almost nothing in common. One is a transnational but territorially weakened terror network, most active in the 2000s and 2010. One was a fringe Japanese doomsday cult from the 90s, and one remains a powerful political movement embedded in the heart of the years. U.S. the world's premier imperialist power. The ideologies may be irreconcilable, their enemies may be different, and their methods even may vary from guerrilla warfare to political lobbying, and yet they have more in common than meets the eye. Welcome to Grapin here. I'm Andrew Sage or Andrews

Starting point is 00:45:37 on YouTube, and I'm joined today by... Garrison Davis. Hello. Welcome, welcome. So my goal is to trying to understand these movements through the lens of ideological totalism, which was a specific theoretical framework developed by Robert J. Lifton to identify the outcome of a successful thought reform process, characterized by Dennis DeRish and Tim Welforth in On the Edge, as a, quote, mood of absolute conviction which embeds ideas so deeply in people's heads that they grow inoculated against doubt. Ideas cease to be provisional theories about the way. and instead become sacred convictions, dependent on the word of hallowed authorities for their validation rather than evidence."

Starting point is 00:46:23 Lifton saw the potential for the emergence of ideological totalism within everyone, but he noted, quote, totalistic convictions are most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claims, whether religious, political or scientific. eight criteria that he identified for thought reform were milieu control, which is the control of communication and information within the environment, mystical manipulation, which is the orchestrating of spontaneous events to serve the group's message, the demand for purity, which divides the world into black and white, good and evil categories, the cult of confession,

Starting point is 00:47:05 which pushes members to confess past sins and personal feelings to the group, the secret science, which elevates the group's dogma to an unquestionable truth, loading the love. language, which is using jargon or cliches to minimize critical thinking, doctrine over person, which subordinates individual experiences and identity to the group's beliefs, and finally the dispensing of existence, declaring that only those in the group have the right to exist. Now, not all of these factors may be at play for each of the specific movements that I would have mentioned, but we still see the outcome of this ideological totalism in each of these movements. to very an extent, the systematic erosion of individual autonomy in favor of an unassailable authority.

Starting point is 00:47:52 Whether we're speaking about ISIS or Amshiricchio or Christian Zionism within the evangelical movement or in any other case, we will see how movements replace individual identity with a collective program persona, where loaded language and thought-terminating cliches make dissent literally unthinkable, where the enemy other is manufactured, and where power is concentrated so tightly that the leader or the dogma becomes the only source of truth. So the foundation of ideological totalism is the destruction of nuance. To build a cohesive us and them, there must be clearly defined and definitionally polarized. First comes the categorization where the complexity of human identity is reduced into a single non-negotiable trait, be it religion or nationality or ideology,

Starting point is 00:48:47 and then comes to humanization, which is stripping the other of human qualities, transforming them from a person into a threat, impure, and infidel and obstacle. And finally, there's enclosure, which creates social or psychological walls that prevent the us from interacting with them. This ensures the only information the group receives is that of the others' perceives. It's that of the other's perceived malice. In the context of groups like ISIS, the Us versus Them in Jin is expressed both ideologically and through physical violence. By committing acts of terror, the group forces the rest of the world to recognize their boundary. There's no cross-contamination to be had with the infidel world, no middle ground. You're either part of their struggle for a global caliphate,

Starting point is 00:49:32 or you're an enemy to be eradicated, whether you consider yourself a Muslim or anything else. With Amishamiku, the cults Us versus Them Injun operated through isolation in communes and the severing of external ties. The them was defined as the corrupted world or the spiritually dead, and the group sought purity and enlightenment, so they targeted the individuals existing social networks, family, friends, mainstream society, labeling them as sources of contamination. By cutting off the member from the outside world, the cult ensured that the only reality that existed was the one provided by the leader. And with the political religious Christian Zionists, the Us versus Them engine is built through a historical and eschatological narrative that sees the entire secular world as enemies to the apocalyptic ambitions of Christ's return. They are frequently warned to avoid worldly influences, temptations from the devil that might skew them from the righteous path. the other, in all these cases, is successfully stripped of their humanity. The destruction of the them becomes a logical necessity for the survival of the us,

Starting point is 00:50:44 and the isolation ensures the group's total control over an individual's interpretation of reality. Interesting how all these various cultish elements build on or use the techniques written about by like Carl Schmidt, the front enemy distinction, and how like creating groups like this, you know, you have to choose like a border point to choose the point that determines what we are and what our enemy is. And then in order to keep your group active or like say that border has to be moved, it has to always be like pushing. It can't actually stay at the same point. And you see that movement with all these groups, right? They have this

Starting point is 00:51:20 like millinarianist, like apocalyptic focus, but they're still like moving towards this like larger enemy population. Yeah, I mean, you see it in like I mentioned, ISIS has erected this barrier that separates them even from Muslims who may share some of their other religious convictions but do not share their political ambitions. You see it with the evangelical movement which distinguishes themselves from other Christian sects as being heretical or not fully committed to the wood or have gone astray in some way. Yeah, I mean, you can see that with the evangelical leaders and like the president picking fights with the literal pope of the Catholic church.

Starting point is 00:52:03 Yeah, I mean, the beef between the Catholics and the Protestants go kind of far back. You suppose they share this scripture or this overarching religious framework, and yet there's still a desire to delineate, to separate, to define an enemy even within that cohort. And a lot of those current differences that do relate to, like, military actions. in the Middle East and what's happening in Palestine, like, specifically. And I found that to be an interesting connection as you're talking about, you know, specifically like Christian Zionists and how the situation in the Middle East

Starting point is 00:52:40 is extremely important for their apocalyptic worldview. And that is like one of the key differences between, between like evangelical Christians and, you know, the current stuff like that the Pope is saying, which is, you know, very much opposed to what's happening in the Middle East. Yeah, because they've constructed this very, robust eschatological framework, which is the next thing that I want to get into. The language that these movements use helps to control their people. You're controlling people not just through physical barriers, but through psychological barriers.

Starting point is 00:53:26 Yeah. If you can control the vocabulary available to a person, how a person understands the meaning of words, how they understand the meaning of their scriptures, you can control the range of thoughts that they're capable of having. You know, that was kind of the point that, and it's cliche at this point, is the point that George O'Ill was making when they had the ministry of truth in 1984 that you limit even language available so that even dissent cannot be fully expressed. You don't have to censor anybody because you've already censor their minds.

Starting point is 00:54:01 Yeah. And you see that even their own creation of like phrases and terms across all these groups, like they come up with specific turns of phrase, they just get repeated, and that just starts like replacing language. It turns to filling in the gap of language in communication. It's a thought-terminating cliches. Exactly, exactly. Thoughtsiminating cliches and also just a broader cognitive enclosure. So in the case of, um, Shinrikio, you had the group using this dense, pseudo-scientific and pseudo-religious jargon that blended spirituality, quantum physics, biology and those who were most elevated in that group were able to wield that language and make

Starting point is 00:54:43 themselves sound so sophisticated and elevated and on a higher plane of truth and reality that made it very easy for them to swindle people within their circle. It created a linguistic barrier to entry so that you couldn't participate even in the group's truth without committing to their incomprehensible dogma. Yeah. And if you don't commit to their incomprehensible dogma, then you just, you don't get it, you're going to be an outside of therefore, you are not enlightened, you are outside of the truth. Yeah. And this, this is a, a problem across a lot of, different groups, including groups that are not this, you know, apocalyptic or, or fascist or, like, religiously based, but they even see versions of this among, like, the contemporary left.

Starting point is 00:55:28 Yeah. Which creates, like, yeah, this, like, barrier to entry by using certain, like, phrases, like, academic language. Yeah. And, and very idiosyncratic definition. of words that have otherwise common definitions. Yeah. And how much politics is like this subcultural purpose of like maintaining a certain like subgroup, like a social circle versus actually building like mass politics and how the idiosyncratic small like purity of groups with their special language and these like barriers to entry

Starting point is 00:56:00 makes it very hard to do larger political organizing that actually goes towards like a working class movement. Yeah. Lifting points out that there is a tendency for ideological totalism in a lot of movements, as I already mentioned. So it's something we have to be on guard for if we want to avoid falling into these traps. And so we look at the example of Alexandria in this case, but ISIS also has kind of a total elimination of nuance through polarized, emotionally charged vocabulary. You know, you have the believer and you have the infidel, which again includes fellow Muslims. You have the pure and you have the corrupt. Every dynamic, every binary is zero sum.

Starting point is 00:56:45 You know, you're either with the caliphate or you're the enemy of God to be wiped out. And within the eschatological framework of Christian Zionism, opposing the apocalyptic and formed geopolitical ambitions is tantamount opposing God's plan. You know, it's like, how dare you? They use these thought-terminating cliches, as you would have mentioned, things like it is written. Yeah. It's in revelation. You know, it's God's will.

Starting point is 00:57:11 And there's no way to actually challenge their policies or actions in their minds on whether it be humanitarian, legal, or logical grounds. Because it's like you're speaking Greek. I mean, doing something like that is like arguing with God. It's like attacking their faith. And so we also see these movements stripping individuals of their agency for the sake of a transaction, the exchange of the self with all its very real vulnerabilities and mortality and earthly limitations for a higher purpose that is eternal and absolute. In the case of Omshin Riccio, the destruction of the self was achieved through the redefinition of

Starting point is 00:57:53 morality that used a distorted interpretation of Vajrayana Buddhism and place. placed the master's will above all conventional ethics. To follow the master and achieve spiritual evolution, one had to abandon the ego with its moral compass and its human attachments. And in its place, Omshinichio offered the merit of absolute obedience. By following their leader's commands, even those of mass violence that would expose the wider world to their threat,

Starting point is 00:58:24 the practitioner believed they were performing a ritual act of spiritual cleansing to become an instrument of a higher cosmic order. You see the same thing with the rise of ISIS. The destruction of the self achieved through the total absorption of the individual into the monolith. The individual stripped of their specific context, whatever nationality or background they may have had, and being reduced to a singular functional component of the struggle. Being given up purpose that was compensated with the promise of eternal significance, the promise of martyrdom.

Starting point is 00:58:58 of fighting and dying for the caliphate, and with that the individual could bypass the mundane struggles of earthy life to secure a place in a permanent divine reality. And in the political theological sphere of Christian Zionism, the destruction of the self has more to do with relinquishing the self's agency and become an instrumentalized for the sake of God's plan, by framing Israel's ascendance in the Middle East as an essential precursor to the Second Coming of Christ, and doing everything in their power to lobby for and support it, the movement disregards the genocidal costs for the reward, being the fulfillment of a divine apocalyptic timeline. And so in all three cases, the follower is convinced that

Starting point is 00:59:42 the destruction of this world, as they know it, and the destruction of the self within it, is not a tragedy, but actually a kind of liberation. But all three of these movements suffering tragedies for the rest of the world. Arm Shonricio deployed chemical weapons in Tokyo's subway system. They killed 13 people and injured over 5,800 others, instilling a long-term anxiety for those living in the city that their shared space could be the site of potential terror. And the person sitting next to you could be the vessel for a hidden, lethal ideology.

Starting point is 01:00:17 ISIS has forcibly displaced millions, killed tens of thousands, and destroyed ancient heritage sites, all in an effort to erase the other, and the Middle East and Africa in particular continued to be scarred by its violence. Christian Zionist ideology has introduced a variable to the political equation that is immune to reason and negotiation that cannot question its theological justifications. Of course, Zionism is not entirely dependent on Christian Zionist support. You know, Jewish colonial settlements would have, predated British support, American support, and Christian Zionist support,

Starting point is 01:00:54 but the political cosine that Christian Zionists provide within the premier superpower does aid in the continued support for the Palestinian genocide. So ideological totalism seeks to eliminate pluralism, to eliminate shared truth and to literally kill. But we should not view the rise. of totalizing ideologies as some freak isolated phenomenon because it deprives its strength from the very framework and conditioning embedded in our existing social structures. The mechanisms of milieu control, loading the language and other techniques used by cultic tendencies exist in subtle

Starting point is 01:01:39 forms within our mainstream institutions. We see the seeds of thought reform in the echo chambers of media ecosystems. We see the loading of language in the polarized rhetoric of politics. We see the demand for purity in the most aggressive forms of cultural and religious tribalism, the extremist can sometimes be the most honest, uninhibited expression, the natural endpoint of our world's authoritarian tendencies and subtle lifelong conditioning. At home, in the classroom, at work in civic life, we are trained in the soft versions of the very deference that totalizing leaders eventually demand. We are conditioned to respect authority without question, to prioritize the great a good of the institution over individual agency and to accept official narratives as the only

Starting point is 01:02:27 valid reality. So when a leader arrives who promises to replace the complex, messy and certainty of our political and social reality with the clarity of absolute truth, the most conditioned minds naturally find the offer are they seductive? And so this disease caught through social conditioning must be treated by a fundamental reclamation of the individual's capacity for critical thought and autonomy. We have to move beyond the mere consumption of information to the active interrogation of it.

Starting point is 01:02:59 It means cultivating the ability to recognize the traps of thought reform, the logical fallacies, the loading of the language, to recognize when an ideology is attempting to bypass our reason in favor of our emotions. The primary defense against thought reform is the refusal to let any authority, religious, political or otherwise,

Starting point is 01:03:19 become secret and beyond to question it. Yeah, I think that point that you made towards the end there, but this thing just being the most visible consequence of the contradictions of our current social system is like really important. It's because, yeah, I mean, we're all sorting through the same sorts of causes that produce groups like this or produce the people that move into groups like this. And we might sort these out in different ways,

Starting point is 01:03:49 but in the way that they do it, it's not fully alien. It's just a very visible outward manifestation of the same sorts of internal contradictions. And like fascism feeds on these same things. You can see how much fascism overlaps with a lot of the stuff that you're talking about here. And it seemed kind of like suicidal tendencies, this destruction of the self,

Starting point is 01:04:09 that is dealing with those same sorts of like social tensions and internal contradictions that produce outbursts of antisocial behavior like this. or in some cases, like genocidal behavior. Yeah, yeah. I think it's very much resultant. There's the structure of our system, you know, the stresses, the anxieties, the pains and pressure points. And, you know, we are all different as individuals.

Starting point is 01:04:37 And I think that some people respond to these conditions in ways that are very much either self-destructive, externally destructive or both. I think a part of our. task in like a general sense is providing some alternative to this, right? You can like look at the way the really like on like a global level, like the left has really receded a lot in the past 50, 60, 70 years. And that that leaves a lot of, you know, people who are who are trying to look for this for this sort of purpose, right? They're trying to understand the contradictions of the world. And there may not be a humanistic option for that. So it gets directed into much more destructive ways sometimes. You can see, like, what happened in Rojava with the Democratic Confederalism as like, right,

Starting point is 01:05:33 they actually did that, right? They saw what was needed and they did it. And it's directly opposing the sort of alternative version, which is ISIS, which is like super interesting, right? But I think we have, we have the same problem here. But we don't really have, like, a strong, a strong, like, alternative to that, right? A healthy and growing, like, working class movement, which attempts to actually solve this sort of, sort of problems that are in the world that these sorts of other things

Starting point is 01:06:02 like feed on, right? They grab onto these very present problems and apply an emotionally soothing response to it, even if it is self-destructive. Yeah. The work of building an alternative

Starting point is 01:06:17 and demonstrating it and showing people living it I think is very, very important. Yeah. I also think that when you consider the fact that the hallmark of totalizing system, is the elimination of the other

Starting point is 01:06:31 and the criminalization of dissent. Our antidotes, our alternative, has to embrace, it has to be committed to diversity of thought and expression. And I also think that it has to be willing to sit with conflict, to sit with tensions. Yeah. To allow them to engage with each other

Starting point is 01:06:54 without trying to just override it with some false unity. those tensions and conflict are, like, important. And that is how we will, like, develop our thought and develop our movement forward. You have to, you have to have those tensions. You have to have that conflict and disagreement, which will, you know, hopefully produce more positive outcomes. Yeah, hopefully it's its generative conflict and not destructive conflict.

Starting point is 01:07:17 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, and some conflicts can be generative if we accept that they can't be resolved. Yeah. I think part of what makes some conflicts destructive is this effort to kind of, just paint over them with some kumbaya sense of, oh, we'll just, will you just unify? Like, that's not consequential or we'll figure it out, or that's just how it is.

Starting point is 01:07:40 And I think we, yeah, we have to be willing to be uncomfortable with not having the answers. And maybe never having the answers in some cases. There are those who I think will have the capacity to engage into de-radicalization of ideological totalists. I don't think I'm among them. And I think that there are others that we can care outreach towards. Yes.

Starting point is 01:08:07 I get irritated sometimes when I see people who believe that the focus of our attention right now as people trying to build an alternative, trying to build a better tomorrow, that our focus should be on trying to de-radicalize right-wingers. Yeah. The vast majority of people are politically unaffiliated, politically uncommitted, apathetic, disengaged. And I think that we can do far more if we were to focus on reaching those people and helping those people see the problems with the system and the solutions that we have on offer than engaging in fruitless debate with Red Winger-Zor.

Starting point is 01:08:49 Yeah, and I think that's actually the most effective form of Dior. radicalization. Exactly. Exactly. There is a lot of problems with the sort of de-radicalization framework that emerged in 2018 to kind of meet the rise of like the alt-right. A lot of it doesn't work. A lot of it can be fruitless. But there is like a noble intention behind it. And I think the best way to actually do that is by just providing a healthy alternative. That does appeal to most people. It doesn't need

Starting point is 01:09:19 to be catered toward someone who's on like the right or like the far right. Because in a lot of cases, those people are suffering from the same sorts of problems that the rest of people are. They've just found a false solution for it. And so if you're able to provide a better solution, a lot of them will move over. There's really very few that are like, true and tried, like ideologically committed, right? There's some and they're maybe very vocal on the internet. But that's not actually like most. Yeah, and also the internet is at least half bots at this point.

Starting point is 01:09:50 So, you know, you take some of those internet discussions, with a grain of salt in terms of being representative of any population significantly. But I did have some tips with regard to outreach. For those who may have a special interest in it or maybe have a loved one that they really want to help, where they see being immersed in an ideologically totalistic environment, for one, directly attacking a person's core beliefs are going to trigger something called the backfire. effect, which is where contradictory evidence actually strengthens their conviction because their identity is now fused to their ideology. So an attack on the idea is perceived as a mortal attack

Starting point is 01:10:36 on their self. Debuting them is not going to help. It's better to think of yourself more as a connecting force rather than a correcting force. You're a lifeline, yeah. To gently guide them out of their radical mindset, rather than trying to instruct them out of it to berate them out of it. And when you notice that they are experiencing doubt in their ideas, it can be very exciting to try and rush in and show them the way, but you don't want to overwhelm them. Doubt, especially for people immersed in that mindset, might literally collapse their entire social and cognitive world.

Starting point is 01:11:17 So your focus, I think, needs to be on providing a safe harbor where their doubts can be expressed freely without judgment or any pressure to immediately betray all that they've ever known. You also need to consider the conditions that led the person into that situation in the first place. If you know what they were like and what their situation was like prior to indoctrination, whether they had certain relationship issues, financial issues, systemic abuses, traumas, isolation, some kind of yearning for meaning or purpose, that can help you, contextualize their situation and while you can always fundamentally disagree with their conclusions, it's good to recognize the needs that drove them to those conclusions. But in addition to that,

Starting point is 01:12:06 you can try to find out what their passions and hobbies will or are outside of that doctrine, so that they have some kind of psychological landing pad if they were to escape the environment, so they're not without a sense of self, so they're not floundering for some form of identity. These movements and this tendency for ideological totalism derived from hierarchy will not be overcome in one fell swoop. It is a continuous daily struggle within the human mind and the social fabric. It is a struggle to remain unconditioned by the temptations of certainty, to hold on to the messy, the diverse, the complex, to create a create a social foundation of individuals who are capable of saying no.

Starting point is 01:12:56 And that's it for me. All power to all the people. Peace. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark.

Starting point is 01:13:25 And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, athletes. politicians and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called, Hey Jonas.

Starting point is 01:13:47 We've here, since everyone has a podcast, we wanted to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Niall Horn is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good.

Starting point is 01:14:00 happy about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Georgia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man.

Starting point is 01:14:23 They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real House Wise franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the team everybody's talking about.

Starting point is 01:14:46 As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Happy Pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network. All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original.

Starting point is 01:15:16 It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting. The more you get comfortable with someone, the more their real self comes out, they're going to be gross. What's the grossest thing about a man? Burping. Shut it down. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes and there are no girls on the internet

Starting point is 01:15:36 for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity Kikis, check outlaws with T.S. Madison. Wait, so Luke was the son of Vader. And Vader was turned by Rupal? Yeah, well, somebody's heard of some old, old witch. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem.

Starting point is 01:15:54 And start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July. Celebrate Pride with the outspoken network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Pride and listen now. When we think of globalization, we often think of trade and late 20th century technological interconnection and the movement of capital. But there was another kind of globalization emerging in the late 19th century. That was the globalization of resistance.

Starting point is 01:16:29 In the closing decades of the 1800s, a network of ideas, outlaws, and revolutionaries would emerge to challenge the empires of the time. Welcome to Icadapin here. I'm Andrew Sage, Andrew Zum on YouTube, and I'm joined again by... Garrison Davis. Hello. Welcome again. And in this episode, using the research of historian Bendick Anderson in Chapter 5 of the Age of Mobilization, I want to look at this period in history, the tools of empire were appropriated by the very people the empire sought to suppress,

Starting point is 01:17:05 to link anarchist prisoners in Montreich, to intellectuals in Paris, to agitators in Cuba, to nationalists into Philippines. Now, the story doesn't actually begin in Montreich prison in Barcelona, Spain, but a narrative begins there. Following the June 7, 1896 bombing in Corpus Christi, 300 people were imprisoned in a wave of Spanish state repression. Among those caught in the crackdown was Fernando Tarida del Marmol, a Cuban creole whose background connected him to both metropole and colony. His imprisonment was a direct consequence of the state's attempt to suppress the burgeoning anarchist movement in Catalonia, but would only end up fueling the movement, thanks to the efforts of the radical international press.

Starting point is 01:17:54 Therido was a math teacher which actually helped him out when he got arrested because a young lieutenant warden recognized his former teacher and managed to sound the alarm of his incarceration. Therito also happens to be the cousin of a conservative senator who used his influence to ensure Therida's release. But Therida didn't let these privileges cause him to forget his less privileged fellow prisoners because he immediately upon release went to Paris, the city of duality, a city that was both the central capital. of colonial power and a premier global hub for political dissent. So there in Paris, Terrida gained access to La Revue Blanche, a very popular periodical of the era. He'd been a recognized writer from before his imprisonment, as he'd popularly advocated for anarchism without adjectives, and he had gotten into a back and forth about workers' associations and bureaucracy and propaganda of the deed with a certain Gene Grave, who was another popular

Starting point is 01:18:52 French anarchists of the period. So in La Revue Blanche, Terrida published his personal, brutal experience of imprisonment and contextualized it as a broader political indictment by connecting the gruesome suppression of dissent in Barcelona to the exact same mechanisms being deployed in the Spanish colonies of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines. Thus he demonstrated that repression in the Spanish provinces was not an isolated domestic issue, but a fundamental characteristic of Spanish colonial policy, and this narrative was taken up and amplified by the efforts of Felipe Fignon and Georges Clementeau. Felifignon was an influential art critic and prominent anarchist intellectual, who helped frame

Starting point is 01:19:33 the struggle against Spanish repression as a significant moral crisis. He also wrote strongly against French imperialism and revanchist nationalism, and Georges Clementeau was a radical journalist and politician, considered a formidable figure in the defense of political prisoners, as he had the capacity to mobilize public opinion around issues of justice, state authority. So together, these figures helped ensure that the grievances of Tirida and the Spanish prisoners were integrated into the global conversation. Now historian Benedict Anderson situates these events within the long 19th century, which had a lot of high-profile political violence, specifically anarchist bombings and targeted assassinations, which prompted a corresponding escalation

Starting point is 01:20:19 in state power through much more stringent legal frameworks and surveillance apparatuses. Parallel to the rise of anti-terror legislation was the emergence of a new structured infrastructure of dissent consisting of labor organizations and radical press, which served as a vital node in the global network, capable of circulating revolutionary ideas and coordinating resistance across borders. In addition to the Montreux affair, the Dreyfus affair would also be amplified by this network. The Dreyfus affair was an incident in French history where in 1894, a certain Alfred Dreyfus, who was a Jewish captain in the French army, was accused of treason, alleged to have passed sensitive military documents to the German intelligence services.

Starting point is 01:21:06 The evidence against him was largely based on forged documents and a high degree of anti-Semitic prejudice. So Dreyfus was convicted, stripped of his rank, and sentenced to life imprisonment on Devil's Island. But the radical press began calling this out, especially when evidence surfists suggesting that the actual spy was another officer, Ferdinand Walson, Estahezy. But the French military high command had covered it up, suppressing evidence manipulating court proceedings and intimidating witnesses to ensure that Dreyfus remained convicted. A pivotal moment in the affair was the publication of non-radical Emil Zola's open letter, Jekuze, in the newspaper LaRourne. in 1898, as Zola used the power of the press to directly challenge the military high command

Starting point is 01:21:53 after the real culprit was acquitted the day after his trial began. This landed Zola in jail for libel, where he eventually got out on a plea deal, but it also earned him the tenuous respect of some critical left-wing intellectuals. Meanwhile, Terida had already left Paris for Belgium, then London, where he made use of his contacts around the world to create a coalition of, quote, liberals, freemasons, socialists, anarchists, anti-imperialists, and anti-clericals, end quote, against the Spanish government and especially against Prime Minister Antonio Canova's del Castillo, the Conservative who was the chief architect of the brutal repression of Spanish anarchists, socialists, and labor activists domestically.

Starting point is 01:22:37 His aim was to ensure the stability of the Spanish monarchy amidst growing pressures of anarchism, labor unrest, cluna rebellion, and American aggression. On August 9, 1897, the Italian anarchist Michelangolillo assassinated Canova. Angiolillo was a real monarchy hater. He had traveled to Barcelona under a fake name and was working as a freelance printer when the Corpus Christi bombing occurred. The city was put under martial law and his anarchist friends were incarcerated in Montreich. After hearing about how they were being tortured, he fled for

Starting point is 01:23:12 Paris, was expelled to Belgium, then moved to London, where Tirida's agitation against the Kanova's regime was at full strength. He continued to work as a printer and engaged in activism in London for some time, where people asked who would avenge those tortured and murdered by the Spanish state, including the recently executed Jose Rizal, who was a Filipino nationalist. So after hearing this, Angiolillo was like, okay, bet, and he makes his way back to continent of Europe with a pistol in his pocket. In France, he meets Dr. Ramon Bittanzas, was a Puerto Rican physician revolutionary who sought the independence of Puerto Rico and the dismantling of Spanish colonial authority in the Antelates. He spent his life country hopping, helping the sick and fleeing Spanish spies.

Starting point is 01:24:00 And although he wasn't an anarchist, he was connected with a lot of anarchists, particularly French and Italian anarchists through the heterogeneous front against the Spanish state, against imperialism and monarchical tyranny. The European anarchists and socialists found a natural ally in the anti-colonial movement he was part of, as the liberation of Puerto Rico and Cuba would represent a vital blow against the same imperialist structures they were fighting to dismantle in Europe. Now, Betancis claims he redirected the target of Angiolilo's planned assassination from the Spanish Queen Regent and infant son to the Prime Minister. But Benedict Anderson calls this narrative into question, because there doesn't seem to be any corroborating evidence.

Starting point is 01:24:44 Anyway, so Angiolillo gets to Madrid, he learns Canova's location, he stalks him for a bit, and then he shoots him dead with the pistol he brought from London. In his trial, Angiolillo defends himself with reference to Montjuiche and Cuba and the Philippines and says, quote, Canova's personified in their most repugnant forms, religious ferocity, military cruelty, the implacability of the judiciary, the tyranny of power, and the greed of the possessing classes.

Starting point is 01:25:14 I have rid Spain, Europe, and the entire world of him. That is why I am no assassin, but rather an executioner. End quote. That does go pretty hard. It does go hard. When is this?

Starting point is 01:25:27 Is this late 1800s or early 1900s? Late 1800s. Late 1800s. Okay. Yeah. So after his Raw was in speech, he was then himself executed at just 26 years old.

Starting point is 01:25:40 Now, beyond being a symptom of imperial crisis, Canova's assassination functioned as an accelerant. By removing such a central figure of the political machinery of Spain in the midst of its war against the US, Angiolillo's act triggered the volatility that would culminate in the loss of Spain's final colonial possessions. In 1898, Cuba, the Philippines, and Puerto Rico, were in the hands of the United States.

Starting point is 01:26:10 And the bullets that killed Canova just kept going, well into the decades to come. Now, speaking of the Philippines, we can turn now to that Pacific node of the movement network. Isabello de los race was a moderate liberal of his time, somewhat privileged as a businessman, publisher, journalist, but he wasn't afraid to advocate strongly against Spanish colonial rule

Starting point is 01:26:43 and was arrested in connection to the Philippine Revolution of 1896. as part of a broader repression against rebels, intellectuals, and activists. The revolution had begun prematurely after the Spanish authorities discovered their plot. And so many of the revolutionaries were imprisoned as a result. Now, while imprisoned, Isabello had to deal with the death of his wife and was unable to attend her funeral or do anything for their children. Naturally, after an experience like that, he would be pissed at the colonial injustices that he and his people suffered

Starting point is 01:27:17 at the hands of the government and at the hands of the religious orders. He demanded political reform and was met with relocation, first to a Barcelona municipal jail and then to the infamous Montuich. While in Spain, he met several brave anarchists who had been imprisoned for various crimes, crimes including advocating for Cuban independence, protesting trials by military courts, and opening secular schools gasp for children, which, I mean, it was Catholic Spain at that point in time.

Starting point is 01:27:50 Yeah. So that was like the worst thing you could possibly do. There was some anarchists who were in jail for assassinations. But I mean, come on. What's a little assassination between friends? I mean, yeah, assassination and opening a school, I think, is the same level of danger to the state at this point. Indeed. And these dangerous criminals demonstrated a level of solidarity.

Starting point is 01:28:16 that really inspired Isabello. And while in prison, he also got access to anarchist literature and was able to take part in discussions with anarchists, where he learned about the rejection of state authority, colonial domination, and class hierarchy. Now, in this exile period, I don't think he ever became an anarchist, and I mean, late in his life even served as a senator, but he was profoundly influenced by the anarchists

Starting point is 01:28:43 and did come to admire them for decades to come. Eventually, following the assassination of Canova's and the change in government, in 1898, Isabello was freed. He then moved to Madrid and started a fortnightly publication, Filipinas anti-Europe, an anti-imperialist critique with particular focus on the growing American empire. And it's funny because after Spain lost their colonies to the US, all of a sudden public opinion in Spain started to become sympathetic to the Filipino fight. It was like, oh, now we could start to feel bad for all.

Starting point is 01:29:18 You know, the Americans embarrassed us, so now we have some sympathy for your plight. And so Isabello criticized America's claim to be liberating the Philippines and Cuba as hypocrisy by pointing to the regular occurrence of lynchings and racist institutions within the U.S. And he also criticized the Filipino elite for their willingness to collaborate with the new colonial rulers. The Philippine Revolution was basically over by national. 1901, as a key leader named Emilio Aguinaldo was captured and had to swear allegiance to the U.S. By the way, Alginardo would also prove to be a collaborator later in his life as he worked with the Japanese occupiers of the Philippines during World War II.

Starting point is 01:30:01 So it's a pattern of behavior for that guy. Anyway, so after the end of the revolution, Isabello decided to finally return to the Philippines, to reunite with the six children he had with his first wife, who he hadn't seen in years, and to continue the struggle. Also, when he was in Spain, he got married. Isabello arrived in Manila with the works of Thomas Aquinas, Voltaire, Herr Joseph Pridon, Charles Darwin, Carl Marx, Peter Kropotkin, and Erico Malatester. He might have been the first person to bring the works of some of these thinkers to the Philippines.

Starting point is 01:30:35 And I think we kind of understate that luck of the draw, I suppose, when we talk about the movement of ideas in the 19th and 20th centuries. You know, they didn't have the internet. They didn't have the anarchist library. It takes a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't have all these accessible means of learning about these ideas.

Starting point is 01:30:56 So if you didn't happen to know somebody who could bring in that kind of literature for you, well, first of all, you wouldn't even know that literature existed unless somebody told you about it. Yeah. The access to information was severely limited. And so fortunately, he Sibelio brought these ideas to Philippines, that he was the first to do so in his time.

Starting point is 01:31:13 But as we'll soon see, the history of the Philippines could have gone in a slightly different trajectory if he had not brought in that literature, learned about those ideas, started engaging and agitating on that basis, based on his experiences. I mean, he ended up in a Spanish prison of all places.

Starting point is 01:31:32 So the Spanish empire that imprisoned him ended up sowing the seeds for rebellion in the former territory later on. as it happens. A not uncommon turn of events, actually. Indeed. So Isabello pulls up in Manila, and his reputation as an anti-imperialist preceded him. He was labeled a dangerous anarchist. And it really didn't help that the US President McKinley had literally been shot to death by an anarchist just a month prior. This whole period of time is just while. Every time that I've done an episode with you about

Starting point is 01:32:08 the late 1800s to early to early 1900s. It's always stuff like this. It's like... Yeah. An unbelievable collection of happening. Like history really has such a momentum during this period.

Starting point is 01:32:22 Like it's unbelievable. Yeah, I just, I really enjoy drawing those connections. Because I mean, he came to Manila with all these organizational plans. He was going to start a party. He was going to launch a newspaper. But as he pulls up and he, he realizes he's literally on a list.

Starting point is 01:32:41 Yeah. You know, he kind of had to scrap those ideas and pull back a bit. And like Lenin's doing the same stuff like in Germany and Russia during the same time. Like everyone, like everyone understands the mission. Yeah, yeah. Everyone knows what has to happen. And this is like before the standardization of passports. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:33:01 This is before the global visa system. And so people are literally just moving around. Yeah. I mean, I always marvel at the fact that. Eric Komano Tester was like, he was getting active in Egypt. At one point he pulled up in Brazil. You know, everybody has to come to Brazil eventually. He was everywhere, right?

Starting point is 01:33:21 And these ideas were everywhere too as a result of the movement of people bringing these books, bringing these ideas, get involved in conversation. It also helped, of course, that a lot of anarchists were printmakers. Still are. Still are. Yeah. many such cases. So Isabelo switched strategies.

Starting point is 01:33:53 In his words, he took advantage of the occasion to put into practice the good ideas that he had learned from the anarchists of Barcelona, who were imprisoned with him in the infamous fortress of Montreche. So he started organizing the working class in Manila. He had the benefit of actually being able to speak the language of the swaths of workers in Manila because he happened to come from the same region

Starting point is 01:34:15 of the fastly linguistically diverse Philippines that they did. He was from the Ilocos region of the island of Fluson, and he natively spoke the Ilocano language, like many of the workers that had migrated to Milan. Though he was technically part of the intelligence here, Isabello had a connection to the roots, you know, to the people, the streets, until he began by organizing the printers, of course, and helping them with their strikes,

Starting point is 01:34:45 And from there the efforts very quickly snowballed, far quicker than the elites could have anticipated, into a cross-industry worker federation, called the Union Obrera Democratica, the first of its kind in the entire country. The Federation was flexible and loosely structured, which made it quite suited to undertaking various strike actions. But beyond demonstrations and strikes, Isabello also incorporated a little local flavor, because the union was also involved in, festivals and theatre and music events. So it was a combination of worker and non-worker-based organization. You get a little bit of everybody involved when you do that, rather than strictly focusing on just one plane of struggle and connection. Eventually, however, the Americans got their act together

Starting point is 01:35:33 and met this movement with surveillance, arrest, and trials. And though they couldn't legally justify keeping him in jail for very long, they did throw Isabello back into jail for a short period. Now, the Wilco Federation would eventually collapse, but the ideas remained, and those ideas fed directly into various labor organizations, socialist parties, and guerrilla movements going forward. As for Isabello, his second wife, the one he married in Spain, died, and two years later, he married again, to an 18-year-old. Isabello married and was widowed three times. He actually outlived all of his wives and had to have. a grand total of 27 children. Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 01:36:21 Yeah. I have no comments on what kind of father he may have been, but that's just... I mean, yeah, you can kind of assume based on those numbers. But yeah, that is what it is. And the fact that he was in Spain, got married in Spain, had six children back home who had lost their mother. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't in Spain by choice, right?

Starting point is 01:36:43 But, yeah. You know, he was middle class, so he may have had family back at home taking care of his children, but still as rough. Yeah. That is rough. So, later on his life, like I mentioned before, he got into electoral politics on the municipal level and the Senate level. And he also in his life got to work in religious reform, eventually found in the Aglipayan Church, which was the first ever Filipino, Filipino independent Catholic Christian Church. Yeah, I was wondering, because you mentioned he brought over Thomas Aquinas. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:37:19 He was very critical of the religious orders, the Spanish Catholic religious orders, but he ended up forming an independent Catholic church, so a Catholic church that is not associated with Rome. You said he didn't identify as an anarchist. Did he identify as a socialist? What kind of was this, like, self-defined politics, like, around this point? and like when he started running for office on the municipal level. I didn't see how he defined himself.

Starting point is 01:37:46 I think he considered himself to be a patriot. You know, a patriot, somebody who is pro-labor. I don't know that he assigned himself necessarily the title of socialist or anarchist or liberal or anything like that. Yeah. He has, however, been called the father of the Philippine labor movement and the father of Filipino socialism. But what do we take from all of this? You know, the empire might globalize trade, might globalize capital, might globalize various forms of suppression, but it inadvertently globalizes resistance. The same infrastructure that empires use to extend their reach across the claim territories is the same infrastructure that radicals can use to fight.

Starting point is 01:38:34 you know, even prison was used as a site of connection. A literal place of repression became a place that connected people across multiple countries. I think the lesson that I take away from this kind of narrative I've spun here between the Cuban Creole Fernando Terida, the Puerto Rican Dr. Ramon Betances, the Italian Michelangelo, and the Filipino Isabello de los race is that the globalization was not a one-way imposition. We could potentially

Starting point is 01:39:14 adopt the empire's tools to fight back and to network our resistance. People who are doing resistance, but on the other side of the political spectrum, do this same thing, like the formation of ISIS in prisons because of how we imprisoned Al-Qaeda members is a pretty key example of this.

Starting point is 01:39:36 Yeah. This is a very common thing. Like, it turns out very, very often the master's tools actually are used to dismantle the master's house. That phrase still has some like, I think, metaphorical uses. But in a sort of like literalist sense, I occasionally push back on it because, yeah, it does, it does view movement as a one-way thing. It has like no dialectical analysis. And I think part of our job is like adapting and moving as empire and capital adapts and moves to the flow of history. 100%.

Starting point is 01:40:15 And with that, as always, all power to all the people. Peace. Osiaga, with four nights at residents in downtown Montreal, flights from Porter Airlines, two weekend gold tickets, and $1,000 of cash. Please love it. Lord, Zara Larson, Dave McRae, Somer, 21 pilots, and more.

Starting point is 01:40:52 Download IHart Radio. Listen to IHard new music for 10 minutes and enter to win. Osiaga 2026. Every day you listen is another chance to win. All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called,

Starting point is 01:41:05 Hey Jonas. We're here, since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall.

Starting point is 01:41:13 It was the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta,

Starting point is 01:41:36 you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They're holding Kay Michelle. back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances,

Starting point is 01:42:03 and the team everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Happy Pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network. All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original.

Starting point is 01:42:35 It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting. The more you get comfortable with someone, the more their real self comes out, they're going to be gross. What's the grossest thing about a man? Burping. Shut it down. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity kikis, check outlaws with T.S. Madison. Wait, so Luke was the son of Vader.

Starting point is 01:43:03 And Vader was turned by Rupal? Yeah, well, somebody's heard of some old, old, old wick. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem, and start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July. Celebrate Pride with the outspoken network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Pride and listen now.

Starting point is 01:43:30 Hello everyone and welcome to It Happen here. My name is Dan Al-Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. And today I have with me, Andrew Lieber. Andrew Lieber is a non-resident scholar in the Carnegie the Middle East program and an assistant professor in Tulane University's Department of Political Science and their Middle East and North Africa Studies program. His research and teaching focuses on the domestic politics and international relations of the Middle East and North Africa region

Starting point is 01:43:54 with that particular focus on Saudi Arabia. Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks to have me. So I wanted to have you on today because, well, the war on Iran, but also because I think there's been a lot of reporting and some that's not very well sourced in mainstream media like the New York Times about the GCC states, GCC Gulf Cooperation Council, so the Arab Gulf states about their motivations and the actions of the Gulf states during this war. I think that there's been a lot of obfuscation for variety of reasons. So I wanted to bring you on, giving your expertise to kind of clarify fact from fiction on some of that. We're recording May 28th, so maybe people have seen this. Trump also recently threatened to bomb Amen, who were acting as

Starting point is 01:44:38 mediators initially. So yeah, I wanted to go through all the main GCC actors and get your analysis of their behavior during this war, what they want to happen when it's over. Sure, yeah, happy to do so. I think one thing that has been a little hard for people to follow maybe has been the tendency for U.S. and English language media outlets to talk about the Gulf states or the G states are what they want from this conflict. But even heading into this war, there were already key differences among these countries. There was a diplomatic and increasingly potentially a military rift between Saudi Arabia and the neighboring United Arab Emirates. There have been past disputes between different cult countries as well. And even though initially the Iran war seemed like it would

Starting point is 01:45:23 taper over the cracks in these divisions in many ways, it's also deepened the divides as different countries have interpreted the threats posed by Iran and by Israel and potentially even the United States in different ways. So at present, we can maybe think of three broad camps within the GCC. So there's Saudi Arabia, the largest by landmass of these countries, and to a lesser extent, Kuwait, and also Qatar have taken the approach of trying to just get things back to, quote, unquote, normal, or like a new normal, supporting mediation efforts by other countries like Pakistan, and now, at least for Qatar, increasingly engaged in direct mediation to try to lock

Starting point is 01:46:05 and some kind of agreement that restores flows of energy and other goods in and out of the Strait of Hormuz, the key body of water that allows things in and out of the Persian Gulf. In one direction, you've had the United Arab Emirates, which has presented itself as a kind of much more hawkish in terms of its willingness to potentially use military force against Iran or to join the United States in a military effort to open the Strait of Hormuz. In the past few days, it's been quietly walking back some of those positions, but it has tried to draw back contrast between its more assertive stance towards Iranian actions in the region and Saudi Arabia. And then the other direction has discussed with the Sultan of Oman, which leaned much further in the other

Starting point is 01:46:51 direction during the war, being the only country that criticized openly from the start, both the U.S. and Israeli-led attacks on Iran and Iran's reprisals on the other side of the Gulf. Omani foreign Minister Badr al-Busayidi went on U.S. television prior to the war to make the case that this was the possible ongoing talks between the U.S. and Iran could bear fruit. That was unsuccessful as an intervention, but also Omani diplomats of various points have offered much more critical commentary of the United States, but they have likewise kind of walked that back, or at least not emphasized there as much in recent weeks, but clearly there is a narrative critical of their role that circulates in some parts of D.C., which percolated.

Starting point is 01:47:32 its way up into the president saying, well, if, if Oman is not going to cooperate with certain things, then we'll just bond them until they do, which, you know, is not the nicest way to ask for the cooperation of other countries and a sensitive geopolitical issue, but so it goes. Right. We're not the most effective these days, let's say. Yeah, so thank you for kind of laying that out. There are so many questions I have. I want to talk about kind of how Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, you've already mentioned, differ on this issue, but also, like, how their differences speak to different visions for the region, especially vis-a-vis Israel. But also just, like, before we get to that, there's been a lot of reporting about how Saudi Arabia

Starting point is 01:48:15 is, like, secretly really gung-the-ho about the war and is encouraging the Trump administration to be more aggressive. What weight do you put on those reports? Yeah, I mean, those have been around since the start of the conflict. I'll preface this by giving a major caveat, which is that every week that goes by, we learn more about what we didn't know earlier in the war. Like, you know, we know now that both the UAE and Saudi Arabia have carried out air strikes on Iran at certain points that they didn't publicize that. But I'm broadly skeptical of accounts that Saudi Arabia and specifically Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman advocated for this war, pushed for the war. Saudi Arabia and Iran have not always had very great relations, but they nominally reestablished diplomatic ties in 20. And generally, I think Saudi Arabia's view is they want to keep the geopolitical peace and the surrounding

Starting point is 01:49:06 neighborhood because otherwise Saudi Arabia can't get the kind of foreign investment or the kind of economic partnerships it needs to generate economic growth and employ its citizen population, a major political concern. And I think even the United Arab Emirates prior to this war was not pushing for it actively. I think these countries also don't want to tell with the possible exception of Vermont. I don't want to tell President Trump no directly. So my understanding of things is that everything prior to the world was phrased in a kind of conditional, we would recommend you don't do this, but just make sure if you just think this is a good idea that you can militarily defeat Iran in a rather quick and decisive fashion. Of course, that banked

Starting point is 01:49:49 on the United States as current policymakers having an accurate view of their own capabilities, which seemed to be not a correct assumption. But I think that also during the war, you had kind of a panic in different directions, like a belief that, well, I guess if the United States has gone to war, clearly they can solve this militarily, right? So I think you had some leaders, especially the United Arab Emirates, pushing the United States

Starting point is 01:50:11 to like finish the job, don't leave the conflict in a state where it's very clear that the United States can militarily force around to do certain things, but you also haven't kind of secured meaningful concessions from Iran. And that I think is, I guess one thing that the United States now, again, with the possible exception of Oman, is concerned about where they get left if there is any kind of deal. It's very clear that they do not have a seat at the table in terms of these

Starting point is 01:50:38 negotiations. And there's certainly a lot of complaints online or in media outlets in the Gulf about that fact, but it doesn't change the reality that these are U.S. Iran negotiations with maybe some consultation with Israel, you know, maybe some communication. with Saudi Arabia with the UAE, but not a ton of consultation of them. And just to be clear, they've paid the brunt of the price here. And Iran has attacked civilian infrastructure and desalination plans and all those things. Yeah, no. I mean, Iran calculated, I think, well, we could attack Israel, but most of the rockets and missiles

Starting point is 01:51:11 be shot down. Israel's farther away, it's harder to hit them with a larger payload, whereas you can hit a lot of infrastructure in the Gulf. It's been very clear that Iran targeted not only U.S. military bases, but also civilian infrastructure in an attempt to put a lot of economic pressure on these countries, especially the UAE, and even countries that had sought to mediate between the conflict or had been more openly critical of any U.S. military adventurism like Qatar, basically have their entire economy frozen right now because they can get very little of the liquid natural gas they produce

Starting point is 01:51:42 in or out. Same thing with Kuwait, same thing with Bahrain. One interesting, maybe unintended consequence of this, though, is that some of the Gulf states are doing better than others economically from this sub-eerabe in the UAE have made up, you know, a significant portion of the ground lost from lost oil exports because they can export some oil over land. And Oman is exporting about as much oil as before, but at a much higher price, so economically or even doing perhaps better. But yeah, these are the countries that have primarily paid the price in direct terms. And then by extension, every country that relies on their energy supplies is also paying the price in terms of higher costs for cooking gas.

Starting point is 01:52:20 diesel fertilizer and so on. Right. Really, this is an American-Israeli war, even if the United States kind of holds the final say. But, you know, recently on social media and in a number of repeated statements, President Trump himself and his administration have talked about the Abraham Accords and normalization with Israel, tying it into possible outcomes for this war. How do you explain that? I'm sure your audience is familiar with the Abraham Accords, but the diplomatic normalization

Starting point is 01:52:57 between the UAE Bahrain and some other countries and Israel back in. 2020. I think for President Trump, this is motive, talking about this now is motivated by a sense of, you know, there's a real loss of face and status by having talked up how he was going to have this decisive victory against Iran and then it being a disaster on every single front. So I think there's now going to be a hunt for like some other kind of quick win that he can show. But I think also the lead up to this war demonstrated that the Abraham Accords as a framework for U.S. policy towards the Middle East was pretty bankrupt in every direction. on the one hand, all of the carrots that the United States was supposed to offer to encourage

Starting point is 01:53:35 countries to normalize ties with Israel. It had effectively already been given out. So for Saudi Arabia, it was like, here are all our concessions that we were going to use in order to encourage you to normalize ties with Israel. We can just give those to you as long as you promised to invest money in the United States. So that's already been allowed to happen. At the same time, the downside for these countries in normalizing ties with Israel is pretty high. There's nothing that Israeli leaders at present can do to guarantee that there won't be another catastrophic and genocidal war against the Palestinian population. That's something that, you know, a Saudi leadership that is dealing with, you know, potentially rising unemployment,

Starting point is 01:54:11 that other countries dealing with ethnic or sectarian divides within their borders, not something they really want to take on as well. And I think that the war has kind of created divergent perceptions of Israel as well. I think for countries, like Saudi Arabia and especially Oman, there's a view of Israel, even for a newer generation of leadership like Muhammad bin Salman, who were not particularly opposed to a greater role for Israel in the region, greater ties with Israel, or just now concerned about Israel as a chaotic and unreliable partner in the region that will throw the security interests of its allies to the wind, you know, at a moment's notice, you know, their interpretation of the Abraham Accords is that it did

Starting point is 01:54:54 nothing to protect the UAE and Bahrain from attacks by Iran or from getting dragged into an Israeli-led or partly Israeli-led war. In the other direction, however, the UAE itself kind of views its ties with Israel is more important than ever. Their view is like, well, this is a region of unreliable actors. Israel has a capable military, even if they don't admit it openly. Israel's the only nuclear armed actor in the region. And Israel did send what's it called the Iron Dome Defense technology to the UAE during the conflict. On the one hand, I think we're, just as we saw during the Biden administration, the Abraham Accords remains this kind of like cargo cult for American foreign policymakers, this idea that we'll just say the Abraham Accords and it'll magically make countries

Starting point is 01:55:38 kind of change their foreign policy orientation. But I think the Abraham Accords as a UAE, Israeli, security, economic, political alliance in the region is stronger than ever and will continue to be the case into the future. But that Saudi Arabia will not participate in the way that the Trump administration assumes. Yeah, I think that Saudi Arabia will continue their policy they've had ever since October 7th, or at least since roughly thereafter, of saying, like, well, we're not ruling out. We just have some conditions in order to move on that. And then, you know, I don't think those are unreasonable conditions of making progress towards a Palestinian state, but they are not anything that Netanyahu, or even probably any other political.

Starting point is 01:56:21 coalition that comes to power in Israel is willing to even think about. So, you know, I don't really see it happening soon. I suppose the thing is Trump is so unpredictable that he could just, like, lash out and declare that he's going to do something to Saudi Arabia if they don't normalize. But then it's a real question of like, well, how long is he going to sustain that? And, like, what does he do if Saudi Arabia or Mohammed bin some of that himself, like, snaps back. over this past winter we saw, for example, as part of that diplomatic riff between the UAE and Saudi Arabia, we saw Emirati-backed forces in Yemen make gains, a lot of commentary online about like, oh, Mohammed bin Salman, isn't willing to do anything about this.

Starting point is 01:57:01 And then ultimately wind up the Saudi foreign ministry condemned the UAE's role in Yemen and Saudi forces bombed like an Emirati shipment coming into Yemen. So there's also the potential here as well. Like these are two political systems where power is highly personal. personalized around specific individuals. And so if President Trump decides to go down that route, there's the possibility for this to become a very personalized conflict. Right.

Starting point is 01:57:25 And I think it's important for listeners to understand the connection, why the Palestinian issue holds such weight for Gulf leaders. You mentioned, for example, ethnic and sectarian divides in particular countries, I'm thinking Bahrain, or, you know, rising unemployment and dissent and discontent in places like Saudi Arabia. it's because either explicitly or implicitly, the Palestinian issue in some parts of the Gulf is connected to people's anti-regime sentiment, which, of course, the Iranian regime is very good at stoking and exploiting. And so it's not just that they're worried about regional instability outside their borders. It's also, like you said, there are domestic implications for all of these regimes. Yeah, I think if we want to turn back the clock to like the first Trump administration and even right up to our,

Starting point is 01:58:14 September 7th, in places like Saudi Arabia, I think there was a belief that you could just suppress people's solidarity with Palestine or that this was like a dead issue for most Saudi citizens. But what kind of October 7th showed or changed was that that sentiment had really never gone away as much as it had seemed. And also that there's now an entirely new generation that has seen the atrocities perpetrated in Gaza over the past few years that is now well aware of everything has been done. And this is not something you can hide from people or pretend that it will go away. And it's even harder to do so if people aren't seeing kind of rapid economic gains in their own lives. So it becomes yet another thing that, yeah, if you wanted to fault Saudi leaders

Starting point is 01:59:01 for kind of weakness and international stage, if you wanted to fault them for not demonstrating political courage, that could be a cudgel to use against them. So inside Saudi Arabia, the one consistent thing over the past five, six, seven years is the complete suppression of talking about the Palestinian issue because political authorities are so worried that if people start talking about one political issue, maybe they start linking into other concerns. At the same time, there has been a shift among kind of regime-aligned commentators from, you know, if this were back in 2019, 2020, you would hear them say, well, Saudi Arabia is now a country that acts in its own national interest. That means we don't have to listen to the Palestinian

Starting point is 01:59:42 leadership, that's their own concern. Now you hear kind of same tune, like different variation where it's like because Saudi Arabia is acting in its own national interest, we can decide that we want to act in solidarity with the Palestinian leadership, not just do whatever the West tells us to do. But then this leads into, I think, kind of the polarization among some of the Gulf countries, because it's the exact opposite dynamic for the UAE, where the UAE goes the route of presenting itself as closer than ever to the United States. very aware that they can use Saudi skepticism towards Israel as something to attack Saudi Arabia in U.S. commentary and U.S. media markets.

Starting point is 02:00:22 And then even if the country seemed to be able to patch these differences up from time to time, it's going to keep driving them apart as well. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but during the first Trump administration, the propaganda around Palestinians emerging from the UAE was extremely, vehement, let's say. Like, there was so much rhetoric coming out of UAE, like, government officials and associated influencers and things like that. That was attempting to kind of change the image of the Palestinian to an Arab audience.

Starting point is 02:01:09 And even though you're right that they are clinging more than ever to the Abraham Accords, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that, like, they can't do that as much anymore. I'm not seeing as much of that kind of rhetoric and kind of anti-Palestinian racism that I used to see. Yeah, and it used to be that, you know, you could walk this like, I don't want to call it a fine line, but you could play this game. I'm more familiar with this in the Saudi case, but the rhetoric would go, of course Saudi Arabia stands with the Saudi issue, but the Palestinian leadership, they would basically adopt the same tropes we were familiar with the United States. Like, the Palestinian leadership, never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, or they would

Starting point is 02:01:44 just do a correct translation of that. Yeah. But yeah, it's much harder. Like, you can't get away with that anymore because the pushback online would be incredibly intense. And likewise, even from the UAE, we see continued coordination with Israel. But it's interesting how the UAE denies or doesn't confirm certain things. So bombing Iran during the war, the UAE foreign ministry kind of does a wink, wink, wink, nudge, like, well, look at our policies where we said we were retaliate if we were attacked Jaya and conclusions. Whereas when it comes to Benjamin Netanyahu, like, visiting the UAE, they're like absolutely not. This is false news. It did not happen. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that points to the extent to which, especially Netanyahu has become extremely toxic and hard to separate from that.

Starting point is 02:02:27 And that, you know, even though I don't think the UA is going to be hosting any, like, major Palestinian solidarity events anytime soon, at the same time, they're not like, you know, this is not like a warm piece in terms of how they're approaching Israelis either. I'm pretty sure the UA even condemned the recent law, like basically allowing executions of the death penalty, yeah. It will specifically define to basically be Palestinians in the West Bank, also condemned Israel's actions in Lebanon as well. So it's become harder to mount the kind of media campaigns against Palestinians. I think partly because they backfire and then partly in recognition that like, this was done for years and years. And then ultimately, what distinguishes Saudi Arabia from the UAE is not that their citizen publics have different views about the Palestinians, but just that in the UAE, you can surveil, coerce, and bribe your citizen population so much better than in Saudi Arabia.

Starting point is 02:03:22 It's like, sorry to be kind of crass about it, but like the Jews just isn't worth the squeeze in terms of the Saudi monarchy relative to at least being in this kind of middle path where they're maybe not pushing the United States too much for Palestinian statehood, but are like doing at least the bare minimum to keep, I guess, the idea of a two-state solution alive. Yeah, and to stay adhering to the Arab Peace Initiative in some capacity. What's kind of the takeaway, do you think, for all of these countries in the aftermath of this war? Do you foresee a change in their positions vis-a-vis the United States in particular? For years and years, analysts of the Gulf, I'm talking about, like, these states hedging. And I think in one direction, this war showed that, like, most of that amounted to just trying to get, like, more concessions from the United States. Like you had a couple European countries show up. You had like Pakistan get involved a little bit.

Starting point is 02:04:15 But there's strategies for the course of this war still revolved around trying to influence U.S. thinking, you know, frame how they were viewed in the United States. But I do think it is going to trigger changes down the line. Like we saw Saudi Arabia normalized ties with Iran four years after the United States failed to intervene after Iranian-line groups attacked Saudi oil fields. I think something similar here, what we're going to see developments three or four years down the line that have been cooking in the background as a result of what has happened in 2026. I think we're starting to see some of that now, and it's not going to be like, oh,

Starting point is 02:04:50 we're going to get a Chinese military base in the Gulf. It's going to be other things like we're seeing Saudi Arabia try to work with what it views as the other regional middle powers that can trust and work with Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan. The UAE, meanwhile, is trying to like double or triple down on its direct security ties with Israel, but I think the way these goals states are going to react is going to figure out how can we shape the diplomas here on the region? How can we shape our own security in ways that don't rely on the United States, but aren't like, how to put it, I think in Washington, D.C. because of the obsession with Chinese influence in the world, there's always this belief of like, oh, like, if not us, then it will be like the Chinese will be involved.

Starting point is 02:05:32 And I think the reality is going to look very different. I don't think China wants to get involved in a security fashion in the Gulf, but there's always a reality. are other countries that have an interest in like some degree of peaceful economic development or some degree of like maximalized security. And that's going to be the future of these state's security relations. Well, thank you so much, Andrew. Really appreciate your expertise. I'll link your profile at Carnegie in the show notes, as well as given that we talked about kind of the Palestinian question in relation to some of these other issues domestically in the Gulf states. I'll also link to some of my own research on this topic. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Starting point is 02:06:19 Canadian women are looking for more. More out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the honest talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women, entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll Join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast and I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. All right. Listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called Hey Jonas. We're here. Since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible

Starting point is 02:06:57 guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It was the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew.

Starting point is 02:07:33 Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap. the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the T, everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television,

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Starting point is 02:08:18 All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original. It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, tell me something messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting.

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Starting point is 02:09:03 with waking up with Ryan coming in July. Celebrate pride with the outspoken network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Open your free IHeart Radio, Search Pride and listen now. Garrison thinks. That's good.

Starting point is 02:09:23 That's good. If we were brave, if we... Yeah, well, new Halloween got you on launch. That's not happening. Howard. This is, it could happen here, executive disorder. Our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House,

Starting point is 02:09:35 the crumbling world and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This episode we're covering the week of June 3 to June 10th. James, some small news items to start. Yeah, many small things this week. New details have emerged about the Santa Rosa Island fire. If you remember, the fire was started by a mariner.

Starting point is 02:09:59 At first, it was reported that the mariner had started the fire by firing distress flares. It now appears that the mariner's engine caught fire, starting to fire. Then he fired distress flares, but there's more. Okay. How many fires did this guy have involved in his boating trip? Well, he ran into the island next door a week before. Okay. Oh, boy.

Starting point is 02:10:21 And was towed by Coast Guard to their harbor, where they found that he didn't have a number of items that you have to have on his boat for safety equipment reasons. Right. So they pounded his boat for six days until a Good Samaritan donated those items. He then left the harbor and crashed into the next island. I think that Good Samaritan made a mistake. I think we can agree. This is not the Mandel. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:10:45 Yeah, I think doing anything to enable this man to re-float on the seven seas. He should not be in the sea. Yeah, this guy listened to too much Jimmy Buffett. Yeah. Unfortunately, like, there seems to be one of those situations, he bought the boat for a single dollar. What? We generally don't give advice on this podcast, but I will say. You couldn't have said a funnier thing than that.

Starting point is 02:11:15 It's not a... uncommon is I have in California for people to buy boats in order to find a cheaper place to live. Yes, of course. Things like slip fees, registration. People don't really see things out of that. I have worked on some old diesel engines on these boats. They're not particularly straight. I'm not a great deal with, but they're not particularly straightforward. And this results in what I think we have seen here, which is a delta between confidence and ability on the seven seas. This isn't a boat that one should be said. alone, much less so if they only bought a couple of years ago for a single American dollar.

Starting point is 02:11:50 No. Unfortunately, it did destroy a large grove of Tory Pine, which only exists there and here. So, yeah, I know, be careful out there would be pirates. Moving on now. ISIS reported it's 19th in custody death this year when correctional centers. Storger, yeah. Continuing to set all the worst records, a court has vacated the president's $100,000 H-1B, visa tax. Cases bought by

Starting point is 02:12:17 California at Al, but it's more than a dozen states that will be impacted by the tax. This is a good one. Gregory Bovino appears to be eyeing a run of the presidency. Sure. This is interesting. So he launched an experimental website.

Starting point is 02:12:32 Yeah, why not? Why? Fuck, like, his website at bravino, 2028.com, the campaign appears to have originated from Jacob Engels. Engels is a right way He was kind of Roger Stone Protégé. They broke ways.

Starting point is 02:12:48 Engels was a pierced chip in charge with methamphetamine possession earlier this year. Oh, wow. It was Engels who was first posting this House Bovino 2028 thing in Bovino's replies. And Engels now is listed on Bovino-2020.com. Oh, God. In this House Bovino thing, he's just, he watched too much Game of Thrones, right?

Starting point is 02:13:12 That's why he's saying that? think so. Because I looked into it, that's as far as I can tell, it's him trying to do like a nightly, like, we're the new nightly order. I mean, it's, it's part of his SS cosplay, is how I kind of interpreted it, because he clearly is obsessed with the fucking shitstaffel,

Starting point is 02:13:28 and they were like a nightly order, and that's, I get those vibes from Greg. Yeah, like, if you look at the website, right, like, you could, like, he's prominently featured wearing it's now infamous great coat, trench coat, whatever you want to call that. Big fucking coat, yes. I don't know if

Starting point is 02:13:43 Bovino, like, Bovino, maybe he's just trying to run this as far as it'll go, right? He just lost his job. So maybe he's looking for, like, something new to do. Oh, sure. Like, I'm not sure how serious Bavito is with this. I do think he's definitely trying to continue to, I guess, influence the national discussion, I guess. Well, in the internet, I mean, he's hanging out with the fucking Martin Selner over in Portugal. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:14:09 He's hanging out with, like, straight up, like, Christchurch mass shooting. affiliated Nazis, you know? Yeah. Like, he's going for it. Everyone should just scroll down to the our foundest section of this website. Okay, hold up. Before, before we do that, this link has now appeared in our group chat. That is the most Nazi-ass, like, just profile pictures thing I have seen in a long time.

Starting point is 02:14:33 It's like a Wolfenstein. Very Wolfenstein's aesthetic. Yeah, right. But, like, in the same way that, like, they're also clearly aping from, like, communist aesthetics. Like the red background, the way he's kind of framed is this like weird. Yeah, is it kind of West German? I would almost say it's like generic propaganda now, which is sort of like a mix of like

Starting point is 02:14:55 West German, U.S.S.R. Or East German, like U.S.S.S.S.R. Like the use of red, the use of the olive branches, the sun rays coming from his body. Yeah, the Oakley. Yeah. It's just kind of like generic propaganda. House Bovino, men fight back. It's an AI generated image, right?

Starting point is 02:15:12 So it is. Based on the way the text is formed, it does appear to be an AI generated. It looks AI. Yeah. It's not properly framed, right? The framing on the left and right is thicker than a framing of the top. There is no framing at the bottom, like Zameterow's shit. Oh my God.

Starting point is 02:15:25 No, I think we're all missing something, which is that's right underneath the big propaganda image. Yeah, the very tiny text, the words. In very tiny text, almost hidden. Vino knows what America needs. America's men. It's not in quotes. The slogan of the campaign is men fight back. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:15:49 Or the slogan that House Bovino, it's a little unclear. Yeah, right. Unclear. Maybe it's house Bovino. Maybe he's struggling to make rent, having lost his job at the Boyd Patrol, and he's sending up a pack to pay his rent. But yeah, incredible. Wow.

Starting point is 02:16:04 The Our Founders section, really. Oh, my God. Okay, I have scrolled out to the Our Founders section. and there is an incredible specimen. The bold national strategy part is really upsetting to me. Yeah. Because he's calling himself the commander in capitalizing the V and the Sea in a very, like, here's the ways, following the commanders maximum effectiveness in quelling the foreign hordes

Starting point is 02:16:30 that have subsumed our nation's cities, both large and small. The American people witnessed what true leadership, powered by a warrior mindset, actually looks like as the commander endeavor to. restore order and national sovereignty. That is one sentence. Second sentence, America as a whole has already fallen to the grasp of the foreign global one-world hellscape ushered in by

Starting point is 02:16:51 Barack Hussein Obama. However, we believe that the commander can not only usher in the Great Restoration of America, but also cement the continuity of a strong and sovereign United States that will last a millennia. A thousand-year-Rike, in other words, and that also was one sentence. That is two sentences that I just read. I need to be clear.

Starting point is 02:17:08 Yeah, the campaign, a couple of Gmail. addresses they're using here. Some really small font, by the way. It's inconsistent, right? Yeah, it's very inconsistently. This looks like they had AI layout his website, too. Well, they have one woman on their founders page, and everyone else who's size like 20, and she's like size 11.

Starting point is 02:17:26 Yeah. Like, the set will have, you know, images of him or of his post where you can see his name, but it refers to him only as the commander. So, like, there's a post of Greg's where, like, it's that post that he made at the airport, where he's, like, pointing at the flight to Newark when he's, when he's, He was on his way of Portugal being like, should I just handle it myself and, you know, go to Jersey to deal with this? And above that is, perhaps I must resolve this personally as a quote, the commander challenging the inertia of the open borders bureaucracy in response to, like it's written like Greg Bovino became the overall dictator of America. And this is a history book 60 years later.

Starting point is 02:18:00 Like that's the way his website is written. Yeah, it's incredibly low effort. And I'm quite concerning. And he really has a high opinion of himself. Yeah. I got to say that. Yeah. I do wonder how much this is just

Starting point is 02:18:14 Angles just writing this like as a fan. Yeah, I wonder how much he had to do with this. But this does not seem like he had nothing to do with it. I will say that based on my knowledge of Greg Bevino. Yeah. He's shared it on his own social media. Great.

Starting point is 02:18:29 In other news, the months-long fight over ICE and CBP funding has come to an end. In a 214 to 212 vote on Tuesday, the House has passed a reconciliation bill funding ICE and CBP. Yeah, this is the so-called Secure America Act, right? It'll give them $70 billion. So if we look at that combined with the Big Beautiful Bill,

Starting point is 02:18:56 there's about 240 billion allocated them in a single year. It doesn't mean they have to spend it all this year, right? The Secure America Act gives them a window up to September 30th, 2020, with no particular allocations for any given year. To me, that strikes me as a hedge against funding after the midterms. I think that's what that's about. Also notable, like Harrison said that they used reconciliation to allow simple majority in the Senate.

Starting point is 02:19:20 We went over the details of a previous version of this bill a few weeks ago. This money is going to go towards hiring and arming new officers, hiring more administrative staff, attorneys, and this is all going to be towards immigration enforcement, as well as some money allocated for acquiring new board. Border Technology, the $1 billion of, quote-unquote, security funding for Trump's ballroom was removed from the bill by the Senate last week. Two other short things I want to mention.

Starting point is 02:19:51 Yesterday, a federal grand jury indicted two people in relation to stop cop city protests and alleged crimes in 2022. And Wednesday morning, the FBI rated about seven people in mid-year. Michigan related to pro-Palestine protests at the University of Michigan and protests against University of Michigan officials. As of recording, like this just happened a few hours ago and relates to an indictment that was unsealed this morning as well, which charges eight people will cover this more in detail in the future. We're going to do one more quick segment here, and then when we return, we're going to talk about the programs in Belfast.

Starting point is 02:20:34 Yay. Some updates related to primary elections. In Maine, Graham Plattenor has won the Democratic primary with about 72% of the vote. The governor's race is too close to call with the ranked choice voting yet to be tallied, but I'm keeping my eye on the Sanders and Labor-backed candidate Troy Jackson, who campaigned with Platner. Jackson is about 9,000 votes behind the pre-ranked choice vote candidate, Dr. Nirav Shaw. After a week of counting, we have more definitive results from the elections in California last week.

Starting point is 02:21:12 Yeah, which a lot of people are saying is an unforgivable fup of democracy that they counted all of the votes and it took them a while. But yeah, Gares, please continue. And we'll talk about the chaos that is being justified by the fact that this took a while to count. Tom Steyer will not be making it onto the ballot this coming November. Nope. With 91% of the votes counted, Steyer has earned 1,928,381 votes, or 22.5%. Republican Steve Hilton, former Fox News host, has Edg Steyer out by about 200,000 votes,

Starting point is 02:21:52 earning 25% of the vote and advancing to the general election, where he will go up against liberal Democrat Javier Bacera with 27.9% of. of the vote. Katie Porter won just under 400,000 votes. Karen Bass still leads the L.A. mayoral primary with 95% of the votes counted. Bass has nearly 300,000 votes, winning 34.3%. Progressive Nithia Rahman has moved into second place with 29%,

Starting point is 02:22:25 beating Republican Spencer Pratt with 25.5%. So the general election will see Raman go up against Bass. Reality TV star Spencer Pratt was up in the early vote, but as Ramon started to pull ahead, Trump and others began claiming the election was being stolen from Republicans. Pratt has insinuated that Roman's lead came from L.A.'s homeless population and Musk wrote that, quote, the level of fraud here is mind-blowing.

Starting point is 02:22:58 Yeah. Also, homeless people can vote. Like, what? Yeah, yeah. Provided they are U.S. citizens. Like, yeah. Yes, yes. It's all lies.

Starting point is 02:23:08 Yeah. I mean, and a lot of what's, even what's being reported in the Washington Post is straight up lies. Like, they just published an article today that includes this line. And again, the theme of the article is like, well, you know, obviously this election wasn't stolen, but the fact that it's taken so long is really a problem. And you can't actually blame all these people if they think it's suspicious. This is not evidence of a rigged election, but it creates fertile ground for conspiracy theories to take root. It didn't help that Rahman tearfully conceded last Tuesday, but it's irresponsible for Pratt to intimate on social media as the race being stolen. She didn't tearfully concede.

Starting point is 02:23:44 That did not happen. That never happened. The Washington Post lied. Like, that's just in a post article. That's just a lie by the Washington Post. Like an intentional lie, I would argue. Incredible. I guess to just go into this to people understand, like, you know, like I've written for broadsheet newspapers.

Starting point is 02:24:00 several people, this is not one person fucking up, right? This is an institutional fuck up. This was a choice. Yeah. It was a choice to get this wrong. The person whose name is on the byline wrote that, yes. An editor then edited. A copy editor then edited it. And then somebody laid it out for the website. Yep. And you know this. If you're listening and you work for the post, you know this. You know that your editors, your bosses and your colleagues chose to lie and are choosing to continue to lie and spread lies through their publication.

Starting point is 02:24:26 You're aware of this if you work there still. I think anyway I don't know Benny Johnson, Tim Poole, or Ingram, and Sean Hannity are alleged that Democrats stole the election and Trump has continued to make claims that the election was rigged, quote, here we go with the very late and massive numbers

Starting point is 02:24:44 of mail-in ballots. Yeah, no shit. Truth. Sorry. Yeah, man. It's convenient. Yeah. Just eternal 2020. Trump truth earlier this week, quote, not possible for Spencer Pratt do have lost the L.A.

Starting point is 02:24:58 runoffs after the big lead he had, third world nation, unquote. Did he understand what the word nation means? No. No. I don't think. They start these truths. I don't think he understands how election works, obviously. Or he does and he's just saying what he needs to say here.

Starting point is 02:25:16 Notably, on Sunday, Trump stormed out of an interview on Meet the Press when asked if he had any evidence of, quote, unquote, cheating in California. The election was rigged. It was a dirty election. And it's happening again right now in California. It's happening right now in California. Right now it's looking, look at what's happening. Where's the evidence to that?

Starting point is 02:25:39 It's four days. In California, it's, no, they're not there. They're dropping fast because it's a rigged election. Let me tell you, it's four days and they aren't even close to coming up with it. You know why they're doing that? Because they're cheating on the election. Do you have evidence to support that? All I have to do is look.

Starting point is 02:25:57 All you have to do is look. Is he in front of a green screen that depicts a John Deer tractor and planter? No, they are in Wisconsin in some kind of barn, and it's raining outside, in this barn with the John Deer tractor and, like, haybells. It's an interesting kind of, like, real-world set they have. Yeah, okay. And the focus is very weird, like the... Yeah.

Starting point is 02:26:19 Trump later called Vote counting in California, quote-unquote, crooked, just like how the press is crooked. Quote, you're either crooked. or you're stupid. You know that these elections are rigged. Your network knows that they're rigged. You're like a third world country. Your elections are crooked and you're crooked and Mr. President. And so is ABC and CBS and CNN. You're one-sided crooked network. So let's call a quits because I've had enough. Thank you, darling. Have a good time. Mr. President, let's please, I traveled all the way to Wisconsin. God, that's embarrassing. Yeah. Just be

Starting point is 02:26:57 be a mean to him. Be rude. Yell at him. Call him a fucking liar. Scream at him. Stop doing this bullshit. Like, I'm sorry. I have no sympathy for that. Like, people booed him, dreamed the national anthem at a Knicks game. You can fucking do this. Scream at him. Call him a piece of shit. Like, you know, you're not getting anything out of just letting him talk.

Starting point is 02:27:17 Call him a liar. Shout over him. Yeah. Stop pretending. Yeah, yeah. Fucking cowards. I'm sorry. And yeah, Mia, you're right. I think we should definitely pay attention to the that Trump did cause the Knicks to lose that game. He did. Yeah, he did. And honestly, that's what I like about him, because it continues James Jolin's streak of death. How Speaker Mike Johnson was asked about these claims on Monday and said that

Starting point is 02:27:43 the vote counting in California, quote, unquote, stinks to high heaven and that the schemes are so, quote, unquote, diabolical that it's impossible to prove election rigging. The president keeps saying that there's election fraud and the California mayor's race. Is what evidence is there to prove that? You tell me, Manu. They are counting votes weeks after the election. We have entire nations with huge populations like India that can count their votes in 24 to 40. You're saying it's rigged like the president?

Starting point is 02:28:11 I'm not saying it's rigged. I'm saying it stinks to high heaven and everybody knows that. Let's remove the appearance of impropriety. Let's have, what a concept? Let's have votes on an election the day of the election. That's what many states are able to do. I think California is playing around with this. But what evidence is there to prove that there was as raped?

Starting point is 02:28:30 Some of these efforts are so diabolical and so far upstream that is impossible to prove. But I think everybody knows instinctively something is wrong here. So this is, I think, very clearly a preview of what's to come in the midterm elections. Oh, yeah, for sure. And they are kind of laying this out here. It's, of course, impossible to prove, but we all know that it's wrong. Yeah. This is going to be every election for the rest of my life.

Starting point is 02:28:54 Yeah. Yep. Yeah. But there's going to be anything that happens that does not meet the increasingly fanciful version of reality they have to believe. Yeah. Right? It's not just elections.

Starting point is 02:29:05 It's literally any fact that, like, is inconvenient. There's any storm that shouldn't have happened based on when they think a storm should happen, right? Yeah. This is just life now. Yeah. It's necessary to, like, create the version of reality that they're existing in. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:29:21 We're going to go on break and then discuss the pogroms in northern. Ireland. We are back. Ooh. Yeah. On Tuesday, July 9th, this is the day before we are recording this, which is important because we don't know how events are going to proceed from here when you're listening to it.

Starting point is 02:29:53 But on June 9th, there were widespread attacks on the homes of non-white people in Ireland in what I and many others have described as a pogrom. mass assailants kicked down doors, forced down white people from their homes, and lit houses and cars on fire, people were being stopped in the streets. I'm going to read a little bit from a report from Hennel Othman, who was on the scene reporting on what was going on, quote, As a woman from an ethnic minority background looked down from an upstairs window, some of the men rushed the front door and broke it down.

Starting point is 02:30:30 With the attack thick with smoke from firework, They attacked the downstairs windows with bricks. As they stormed the property, some claim to be, quote, liberating it. Graffiti nearby demanded, quote, local homes for local people. A woman in the crowd said to her friend, quote, There's we girls inside. Yeah. It is an extremely bleak and worrying event.

Starting point is 02:30:57 The nominal cause of this program was a video of a stabbing and bell. that has gone viral on social media, which has been amplified by right-ring forces, both in Ireland, the UK, and across the world, probably most famously by Elon Musk. We will touch on that more in a second. But before we say anything about the broader context, I think it's important to state two things here. One, Ireland and also particularly the factions of Irish politics you're going to be getting to here has had racism problems long before any of these events. famously, you know, if you want to look at the most immediate stuff in the recent past,

Starting point is 02:31:36 exactly one year ago today in Northern Ireland, there was a smaller race riot. There was a smaller scale version of the thing we're seeing here with less damage, but still, you know, absolutely terrifying effects. This very much rhymes with the race riots that we saw in the UK a couple of years ago. Yeah. Right? Like it's a similar deal, similar motivation. of mobs attacking

Starting point is 02:32:01 hotel. At that point was more focused on hotels that refugees were believed at. But yeah, like you were saying

Starting point is 02:32:07 me, basically the same idea. Yeah, these are white mobs. It's also, I think,

Starting point is 02:32:11 important to note on top of just the general sort of racism of our society. This program's largely taking place in loyalist

Starting point is 02:32:19 neighborhoods. You know, these are places with very, very longstanding far-right paramilitaries with very close ties to the police.

Starting point is 02:32:27 A lot of the people in the streets are, you know, sort of parts of old loyalist, paramilitarian criminal networks. These are, in many cases, like, believed to be the same networks that, you know, are doing shit during the troubles and have been active in various forms throughout the occupation of Ireland.

Starting point is 02:32:45 And deportations Belfast notes that leaked emails from police after the 2025 riots. They are from the riots themselves. They said, quote, it is important for you to understand our expectations, unless there is an obvious article to issue. we do not expect you to expose yourself to significant unnecessary risk. So what that in effect is saying is that this is in effect a stand-down order if you don't, if you think that anything would be even- Let the mobs do what they're going to do.

Starting point is 02:33:14 Yeah, right. And that's just the stuff. This is from the 2025 riots. Presumably similar orders went out during these riots. And that's just the stuff that they sent via email, right? That has been leaked out. The police, again, very notably did very, very little. while all of this was happening, while people's houses were being burned down, while people

Starting point is 02:33:33 were being dragged out of their homes. These attacks also come after weeks of far right discourse in the UK about the killings of two white men by non-white men. Yeah. I mean, on the BBC, they are having debates about whether there is a, quote, two-tiered police system, which, you know, when I initially saw that, I was confused because, yeah, two-tiered police system has been the way that, you know, like, anti-police violence activists have talked about the way the police system functions, where there is a way the police function for white people, which is that it treats them significantly better, and then there's the way it works for non-white people. The far right has flipped this on his head and is now arguing to an extent that it is now sort of national

Starting point is 02:34:14 discourse on the fucking BBC is arguing that there is a two-tier police system where non-white people are let off the hook for their crimes and where white people aren't protected by the law. This is nonsense, but it has been spreading. rapidly pushed by far right actors like Tommy Robinson and of course Elon Musk. Yeah. Yeah. Musk specifically has been really pushing this. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:34:39 He was a big figure too in what happened in the UK a bit ago. Yeah. And the 2025 Irish riots too. Right. That's exactly right. And he's been nonstop pushing and making posts, making claims to the extent of like, we need to, the only way things will get better is if we keep protesting, you know, this has to be handled like forcefully, yada, yada, like that sort of shit.

Starting point is 02:34:58 Like, he has been, he's been basically devoting, as far as I can tell, the week that he is about to have and that he is having his IPO devoting the majority of his time to inciting up a program. Yes, seems to be. Yeah. He retweeted a post from Restore Britain, which is a somehow even further right, just straight up, effectively fascist party, but even further right than the already horrifying reform party saying, quote, do not make peace with. evil destroy it. Yeah. There's another one where it's like either you fight back or you die. That's what it comes down to.

Starting point is 02:35:35 There's been a lot of comparisons between Elon Musk and Radio Rwanda, which is a radio outlet that was broadcasting calls for the Redmondage. Well, and that's not accurate really. But you're referring to RTLM, right? Radio Television Libre Melcholina. Yeah. Yes. Radio Rwanda is a different thing.

Starting point is 02:35:53 Oh, sorry. Am I? Like, Radio Rwanda is a currently existing corporation. So we need to be extremely clear in our terminology. Let me be very clear here, because I actually had this pulled up for this. RTLM was the radio station that is often accused of helping to coordinate, or some people will just say straight up and cited the genocide. It was owned by a guy named Felicia and Kubuga,

Starting point is 02:36:16 who was an extremely wealthy Rwandan man, and who was personally very much involved in, like, wanting to push for the genocide. RTF regularly called Tutsi's cockroaches. and encouraged people to cut down the tall trees. However, there are also good reasons why this is not quite as direct as it seems. RTLM did not coordinate attacks. They did not plan specific actions. And analysis in the modern day has shown that a lot of the worst massacres,

Starting point is 02:36:47 in fact, the majority of the worst massacres did not have any direct relation to RTLM. Now, RTLM's propaganda and broadcasts played a role in the genocide and incited, and continue to, like, escalate the violence, but it's not exactly, I would argue it looks like, and we also, we don't have perfect analysis of what's just happened in Northern Ireland, so maybe this will prove to be wrong. It looks like what Musk is doing

Starting point is 02:37:11 has more of a direct causative effect. Yeah. But that's also not clear to me at the moment. Yeah. Yeah, my estimation so far, but again, like this is changing, my estimation so far is that I think it is actually closer to it in that I think even if Musk isn't there

Starting point is 02:37:25 something like this happens, Sure. Because I think a lot of this is mobilization through like very local Irish political forces and these sort of unionist networks. But it's also really difficult to say just because all of those networks have been heavily influenced by Musk's X in the last few years too. So it's, I don't know how you want to. Yeah. And it's feeding off of like a decade of intensifying anti-immigrant sentiment across the UK, including Ireland and Northern Ireland. Yeah. And this is also something what people will point. out when you're talking about Rwanda and RTLM, which is that like, well, as much blame as you want to give RTLM and some of these other media organizations that unquestionably had some role in motivating and fueling what happened.

Starting point is 02:38:10 I mean, the root of the Rwandan genocide comes from the period of colonialism when the Tutsis were like a favored group of people within the country, which is what started a lot of these underlying hatreds, right, is the way in which the colonial power played these different groups off of each other. So anyway, whatever. It's always the case. It's always going to be deeper than some guy has a media outlet, right? But that doesn't mean the media outlet is not involved in what's happened.

Starting point is 02:38:36 It was the same in Rwanda, right? Like, we had the interrahumway. Like, they existed and they distinct from RTLM, but like the environment that allow those two things to happen. Nothing's monocausal. People want to do this in history. No, and it's the difficult thing of

Starting point is 02:38:51 both, it's very important to point out when something like this rhymes with something that happened in a genocide that killed a million people. And also, the more you learn about stuff like this when people make those comparisons, the more learned people are like, well, that's not quite right. Actually, this is, it was a little different thing, you know. Yeah. The Genocide Memorial Museum in Kigali is the most moving museum of its student in my life. It's incredible. If you have the chance every once you go. We need to do more in bastards on Rwanda. But yeah, anyway, wonderful country. Yeah. The one thing I also want to mention,

Starting point is 02:39:25 sort of in closing here is that, you know, again, like, part of the reason this is happening, part of the reason it's been a lot of, you know, these, of these unionist networks, part of the reason it's happening the way that it is is that this is a very, very old white supremacist project going back, like, you know, like through the British occupation of Ireland, right? And it's a project that's been aligned with, like, the Rarondwans were once British in the sense of, like, like, you know, this is carrying on the sort of long imperial British tradition is like, yes. The world, one of the world's, like, largest and most bloody and brutal, those white supremacist organizations.

Starting point is 02:40:00 Yeah. We talked about this in a meeting. We were having beforehand, but, like, loyalists in Northern Ireland have regularly made a habit of, particularly in the 70s and 80s, displaying Rhodesia flags in the 90s, apartheid South Africa flags. It's very common to find Confederate flags, like, you know. Yeah, partly as a direct response to the internationalism of republicanism, they just decided to align with. the worst people on the planet. Yep. Yeah, there'll be another episode of up on this Monday that goes into more detail and we'll have more information as it comes out. This is again a rapidly changing situation. There might be more days of this. It's possible that the police will crack down harder

Starting point is 02:40:42 because there's been some pressure put on them by basically every government's involved in this. But we just simply don't know that at this time. And yeah, it's a absolutely horrifying Yeah, pretty horrible to see. Let's do immigration in the US now. Another country where things are going great. So a judge has ruled that the Trump administration's broad restrictions on asylum and work permits. These were issued after the shooting of two national guards, people in D.C. are unlawful. To quote from the court order here, more than six months ago, the United States citizenship and immigration services enacted a series of policies through the lives of countless immigrants living in the United States into indeterminate legal The agency announced that it would be placing an indefinite pause on the adjudication of immigration benefit requests from individuals from 39 African-Asian Latin American Middle Eastern countries. Since then, individuals from these countries have been categorically barred from receiving final decisions on, among other things, their asylum, work permit, green card and citizenship application. And USCIS's hold on adjudications cannot be attributed to anything that these individuals did wrong.

Starting point is 02:41:50 Rather, it arises solely by the happenstance of their birth. And then I found this interesting in the court documents here. In ruling on these motions, a court is reminded of a line often repeated in discussions around immigration policy. If people wish to immigrate to the United States, they ought to follow the law and do things the right way. This case serves as a perfect example of immigrants doing just that. They went on to say that the USCAS had used what they called pretextual concerns of national security that mask anti-immigrant sentiment. that is forbidden from letting influence its decision-making. Legal terms, that means that USCIS's actions of a contrary to law,

Starting point is 02:42:30 arbitrary, and capricious. There's a fairly like emphatic court response, right? This will affect a great deal of people. This has effect left a great deal of people in limbo, right? Most famously, I guess there were people who were at the stage of their naturalization where they take the oath to become American citizens, right? The very final step. It is obviously a formality.

Starting point is 02:42:52 you've passed a background checks, done the interviews, etc., etc. But it's still a necessary step without doing it. You do not become a citizen. And those people had been delayed and unable to do that. They will be able to proceed with that. Other people will be able to proceed with their process with the caveat that USCAS, if we have reported before in this show, is heavily focused on denaturalization. And it might be very hard for them to actually make that progress and get USCIS to move on stuff.

Starting point is 02:43:19 Talking of denaturalization, the DOJ has. has begun proceedings against 17 people, these people are either accused or convicted of serious crimes. What it seems that in most cases, people have been adjudicated to have committed crimes. In some cases, they pled guilty to crimes after they naturalized, but that they were doing before they naturalized. And what they are arguing here, the DOJ is arguing, is that therefore they lied when they were naturalized because they were asked if they had committed any crimes for which they had not been arrested. So by not confessing to those crimes in their interview, they were therefore lying. They were lying on the form. Yes, on the form or in the

Starting point is 02:44:01 interview or both. And therefore, that is why they are trying to denaturalize them. This is a large denaturalization. 17 people is a lot. A couple of them also were alleged to have applied for immigration benefits under multiple different identities. One that I found particularly interesting is a Catholic priest who abused a minor parishioner. It's interesting because interesting to see them going there. I'll follow these and kind of keep tabs on how these progress, but that they have been ramping up denaturalizations. We are beginning to see them kind of reaping the work U.S.S. has been doing since the Trump administration fundamentally turned that agency around and pointed it at denaturalization. Meanwhile, a GAO report on immigration

Starting point is 02:44:43 detention in Camp East Montana. I've never seen it written like Montania, so I'm guessing it's camp monta like like joe monta yeah yeah well like i do they write it says montana so like i don't know but it's it's in bliss right like it's inside fort bliss so like one would expect to normally like a spanish style pronunciation given the region yeah but maybe they just like a fucking en yeah i don't know like why they're not anyway it's camp its name is spelled like the state not the not the spanish word for mounted some of the things detailed in this port are pretty shocking a lost a loaded gun. Oh boy, yeah.

Starting point is 02:45:23 People with diabetes and HIV did not receive treatment plans and quote. Jesus. Yeah. On February 20th, 20, 26, ICE issued a discrepancy report for detained non-sicist and death by use of force in January of 20206. The coroner's autopsy found the death to be a homicide due to a spixir. However, the contractor did not provide use of force and death reports to ICE as required. In addition, evidence associated with the incident was missing or destroyed. Jesus. Yeah. Like one of their guards strangled someone to death. It appears.

Starting point is 02:45:53 Yeah, there's a range of ways someone could be asphyxiated, right? Like, I... Yeah. That's true, but... I'm guessing they're tempted to restrain this person violently and, like, as we've seen, many other times in American history, murdered them. Yeah. And then evidence of that was destroyed. What is allowing this to happen? It's that the contract was solicited using a worldwide expeditionary multiple award contract vehicle. That's a dimly illicit. a military contract vehicle. It allows an experience pool of military contractors to apply for the contract. They probably did it like this to expedite the awarding implementation, right? Camp

Starting point is 02:46:31 East Montana is a soft-sided facility on Fort Bliss. I've talked about it before here. Soft-sided facility means tents, right? It means keeping hundreds of people in tents. They hired a contractor who had no experience using what's called a lowest-price-priced-technically acceptable evaluation approach. So they, like, they, like, filter out, people who can't do the requirements that they have for the contract, and then they look at which of the ones that does meet the requirements has the lowest price, right? This has resulted very clearly in them contracting someone who's completely incapable of managing a facility like this. And even among ice facilities, this one appears to be particularly heinous.

Starting point is 02:47:11 And this has resulted in very, very predictable and easily foreseen human tragedies, right? They are capable of doing better than this. Conditions were very bad at Bliss for Afghan people. Ray who came here after the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I wrote about that for the nation. You can look it up. I interviewed someone who was there. But this is even worse.

Starting point is 02:47:32 Rather than learning from that, they've just gone deeper. This has resulted in at least one person being killed. It's pretty horrific. Let's go on break. And then we will return for some stories about trans health care. and war with Iran. All right, we are back. I have a sort of hodgepodge collection of stories related to trans health care and trans rights in the United States

Starting point is 02:48:13 that I'm going to go kind of sequentially and some of them tie together. But let's start with the trans military ban. We've an update on this. A federal appeals court has at least temporarily blocked the Pentagon from expelling transgeneral, members of the military, though trans people may be barred from enlisting. So this is kind of sort of like a new form of don't ask, don't tell in a way of you can get in if you're not trans, but once you're in and you are trans, there's no legal grounds to remove you from the military. This was a 2-1 ruling that found Hague Seth's anti-trans policy was, quote,

Starting point is 02:48:54 driven by the bare desire to harm a politically unpopular group and, quote, both arbitrary and based on animus. For those reasons, the policy violates the plaintiff appellee's constitutional right to equal protection of the law, unquote. Now, the last bit is very important, like the Equal Protection Clause, in cases like this, is going to be the main thing that trans people are able to rely on. Now, Circuit Judge Robert Wilkins, an Obama appointee, wrote that the Trump ad, adjunct, men claimed their anti-trans policy is solely about whether the military can disqualify people from service due to a mental health condition, like gender dysphoria. Judge Wilkins wrote, quote, But the record shows that the purpose of the Higgs-Seth policy is to target applicants and

Starting point is 02:49:42 service members who express what the administration believes is a quote-unquote false gender identity. And the policy goes far beyond disqualifying persons currently or recently suffering from gender dysphoria. Some of those disqualifications are completely unexplained and have no reasonable justification, unquote. Hengsteth almost immediately announced he is appealing to the Supreme Court. Oh boy. We will see where this goes. Yeah. Last month, the DOJ announced a settlement with the Texas Children's Hospital as part of an ongoing national investigation into violations of federal law for providing gender-affirming care to minors. The Texas Children's Hospital has entered into agreements with both the DOJ and the Texas Attorney

Starting point is 02:50:29 General, Ken Paxton, that includes a commitment to not perform quote-unquote sex-rejecting procedures on minors, which the DOJ says includes puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. This is a new term that they're really, really rolling out. Sex-rejecting procedures. You're just going to see this a lot more in these next few weeks to months. The hospital in Texas also agreed to pay over $10 million in damages and civil penalties to, quote, resolve allegations that it submitted false billings to public and private payers to secure insurance coverage for pediatric sex-rejecting procedures.

Starting point is 02:51:11 The Department alleges this conduct violated the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, the False Claims Act and federal fraud and conspiracy laws, unquote. So they're saying that by billing insurance, whether public or private, for quote unquote sex-rejecting procedures, trans-health care, that this was an act of fraud. Now, this is a settlement, and at the end of the settlement, they do note that these are just allegations, that these have not actually been proven,

Starting point is 02:51:37 liability has not been proven in a court, but these are the allegations that resulted in the settlement. Now, as a part of the settlement, the Children's Hospital will also open the first ever, quote-unquote, detransition clinic. So detransition care is the same as transition care, right? It is the same type of care. Yeah. I know this. This is like what I do.

Starting point is 02:52:00 There's not enough detransitioners out in the world to sustain an actual full clinic, which points to the fact that this clinic is not going to be used for consenting detransitioners. transition. This is mainly going to be used as a conversion therapy clinic for kids who want to transition but are now going to be forced to go to a clinic like this because they're not able to get their health care through this hospital or really like in Texas as a minor. The Cleveland Clinic in Ohio settled a very similar case last week paying $308,000 fine and agreeing to dedicate $2 million in funds for detransition care while promising to not provide gender-affirming health care to minors for 20 years. Jesus.

Starting point is 02:52:51 That is the part of the settlement in the Cleveland Clinic case. My God. In mid-May, Oklahoma passed a bill prohibiting Medicaid coverage of gender-affirming care, including surgery and HRT, as well as offering this care in state-owned facilities. The bill does not cut funding to doctors at private health care facilities to provide HRT, as I've seen some claim online. This, like many of the Medicaid restrictions, primarily affects poor trans people on state Medicaid,

Starting point is 02:53:23 and may make care hard to access in the future depending on how private hospitals react to this bill, even though it does not necessarily force them to change the way they operate. Lastly, later this summer, New York City will begin testing a pilot program for a direct low-slash-no-cost gender-affirming care clinic for adults, opening in a low-income neighborhood in Queens. I think this is a good first step in providing access to care, considering the Trump administration's threats to restrict Medicaid and Medicare coverage, or remove Medicare-Medicaid eligibility from hospitals that provide gender-firming care services. But as we know, trans youth have borne the brunt of these threats. Now, Bozbom Dani and the City Health Commissioner have said they are working to expand. City provided gender affirming care services to cover trans youth. Commissioner Martin told the City Council last Friday,

Starting point is 02:54:20 quote, We are committed to this issue and want to make sure that we provide the services and resources for youth, as well as making sure we don't expose ourselves to clawbacks from the federal government, which disrupt the rest of the care we can give. There's much more to come on this, but rest assured we are working on this, unquote. Something that is worth understanding here is that this new pilot program, this city-run low-slash-no-cost drop-in clinic, is completely separate from the city's H&H municipal hospital system, which already operates multiple H&H prize centers that currently offer youth gender affirming care, including HRT.

Starting point is 02:55:01 I called one this morning to confirm that they are. still offering services to children, people of all ages. Now, H&H is funded through city subsidies and patient revenue through Medicare. The new pilot program is attempting to launch an alternative care service that isn't reliant on insurance or federal funding if that comes into question. And they're trying to get this clinic up and running off the ground as soon as possible, and then once the pilot program is tested, expand it. Last week, Mamdani announced a 15-19, million dollar investment in gender affirming care, quote, unquote, as a first step and said that the funds would be used to, quote, unquote, unlock care for youth who have had their health care restricted by

Starting point is 02:55:44 private hospitals. So it's currently unclear how exactly these funds will be used. For a while, advocates in New York City and State were fighting for care in the state budget, which delayed some of the process on this city provided care because they were expecting about $8 million of care from the state budget, which eventually fell through. So now, the city process is ramping up on this. Earlier this year, two major hospital systems in New York City stopped providing gender affirming care to trans youth ahead of prospective HHS federal rule changes that would prevent hospitals from receiving federal funding if they offer gender affirming care services to youth. These rules have yet to go in effect, but two major hospitals

Starting point is 02:56:27 essentially complied beforehand. The risks from the federal government aren't just isolated to restricting federal funding. The Trump administration has employed a variety of threats in an attempt to intimidate patients and care providers. Last month, the two hospitals that discontinued care for trans youth received a criminal grand jury subpoena from the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Northern District of Texas, requesting information on pageants under 18 years of age. At least one of the hospitals, Mount Sinai, is complying with the subpoena, though telling parents the records would be anonymized, whatever that means. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 02:57:04 A group of trans New Yorkers who have received care at NYU Langone and their parents have filed a class action lawsuit to protect their medical records, though patients at Nounside and I could also sign on to this suit. The suit has extended the deadline for the subpoena till late June as both the hospital and patients fight this in court. A similar administrative subpoena, requesting records for youth patients was challenged and successfully blocked in Rhode Island. These subpoenas should be fought on the strongest grounds by both the patients, the state, the city, and the hospitals themselves.

Starting point is 02:57:44 And beyond the all-ages care, currently offered by the H&H health system, I think it was also fair to advocate that the direct low, no-cost drop in clinic expand to cover all ages once the pilot program is up and running this. summer. We'll briefly discuss the detention of an ICE officer and the war on Iran. We do have a good ICE arrest for you this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one good ICE arrest, right. Let's just start there then. So Henamping County Attorney has filed charges against

Starting point is 02:58:16 ICE agent Christian Castro. Castro was arrested in Texas. He was arrested by Texas Rangers with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension Investigators and DHS Security Office of the Inspector General Staff at the scene. According to a statement by the Hanapin County Attorney's Office, Castro is charged with, quote, four counts of second degree assault and one count of falsely reporting a crime for an incident on January 14, 2026, when he discharged his weapon through the front door of a home,

Starting point is 02:58:45 knowing there were people who had just run inside. The bullet traveled through the door and struck one victim in the leg before making its final impact in the wall of a child's room. They did note in this that the case might be removed to federal court, but they say that he would still be ineligible for presidential pardon. It is not usual when announcing any prosecution to consider the impact of a presidential pardon. It is interesting that they did. The case in question refers to Castro shooting of Julio Sorosceles,

Starting point is 02:59:18 in which DHS claimed that Sosa Seles and two others attacked Castro with a broom at a snow shovel and that Castro, quote, fired the defensive shot to defend his life. DHS very quickly dropped its case, put two agents on leave for providing accounts that were contradicted by video evidence. Probably Castro was one of them, right? This is interesting, A, that they were able to, like, obtain the DHSOIG support. I had forgotten that DHSOIG were still doing stuff like this, to be honest. I didn't think they were. So this will be one that we will follow.

Starting point is 02:59:50 That only leaves us with Iran, where this week a United States Apache helicopter. was people have been using shot down. I'm not sure if it was shot. It was taken down reportedly by an Iranian drone and reportedly by a collision with that drone. It's possible that this happened accidentally, but given other things we've seen, right, with, in Ukraine, for example, it is possible to take down a helicopter with FPV drone. That would be my guess as to what happened here. Its crew were then rescued from the Strait of Hormuz by another drone, an uncrewed surface vessel. The US only bought these online in March of this year.

Starting point is 03:00:37 So this is the first time that we're aware of that they were used in this capacity, right? So this is like a boat drone, an uncrewed surface vessel and it scooped, well, it didn't scoot them up. They got on it, it collected them, and then it took them to a second location where a helicopter was able to lift them up. As a direct result, and according to sent comment, the direct order of the president, the US then began self-defense, I'm quoting here, right, quote-unquote self-defense strikes against Iran. They claim these strikes were a quote-unquote warning shot and will not impact negotiations, but as we record this on Wednesday afternoon, they have just announced another series of

Starting point is 03:01:14 strikes. This all comes after Israel and Iran exchanged missile solvers when Iran responded to Israeli bombing in Beirut. And the Houthis have also claimed a missile attack on Israel and have said that they would begin targeting Israeli shipping again. We are already teet around the edge of this becoming a massive international conflict in a region again. I mean, it is a massive international conflict, right? But returning to these full-scale conflict that we saw until the ceasefire,

Starting point is 03:01:47 which has been repeatedly violated, but nonetheless has reduced the amount of bombing that's happening. Israel also bombed Palestine this week. Among the people killed was an eight-year-old boy named Judd Soleiman in northern Gaza, which is tragic. Yeah, we'll keep reporting on this. Like, I've tried really hard not to make our coverage of especially what's happening on Iran Twitter review, because real people are killing and real people are dying. And like, it's focusing on the stupid shit that the president said or that, you know, Netanyahu said on Twitter,

Starting point is 03:02:19 like isn't or true social converted to Twitter or whatever. Like, that's not really what such stake here. Like, what's the stake is people's lives. And so I want to kind of avoid doing the back and forth social media review. But yeah, that's what I got this week. Cool. Oh, breaking news. As we go to press here, the Berlin Zoo has announced the name of its newborn pygmy hippopotamus.

Starting point is 03:02:45 And I thought Hitler was a mistake. I'm going to be honest with you guys. I don't think that's an appropriate name for them to use. A little hitler. I'll drop a link in the chat so you all can appreciate it. It's like a new Moudang just dropped moment. They are calling it Broochin. Brochen.

Starting point is 03:03:06 I don't speak German. Sure. Okay, guys. That's market-a-rocious. Bruchin. Yeah. Great. Good work, guys.

Starting point is 03:03:13 That sounds like a candy. Children aren't legally allowed to eat in my country. Another dub for German marketing. It needs bread roll, I guess. It's a very cute hippopotamus. That's a pretty cute name. Brett Wall would be a cute name. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 03:03:27 Well, I guess if you're German, it's a cute name. Hit us up, German language listeners. Does it seem cute to you? No, don't, because you'll just get angry at us for not understanding your strange language. In my defense, you live outside of America, the only other country in the world. Right? Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:03:42 I'm just going to ignore the Iran reporting that you said. Yeah, we just did. Yeah, we'll not mention that. Email us at Coolzone Tips at Proton. Some of you marketing fuckers are still trying. Remarkable. I'm pretty sure it's one person who just creates new aliases, but I'm playing whack-a-mole over there in the block list.

Starting point is 03:04:05 Okay. I will read your name. Z out if you keep doing it. All right. Well, I think that's going to be it for all of us here. And it could happen here. That's the it. And it could happen here is this, is us doing it.

Starting point is 03:04:19 Mm-hmm. The podcast. Goodbye. Put a trance girl in your couch. We reported the news. We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Starting point is 03:04:41 It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

Starting point is 03:05:00 All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called Hey Jonas. Because everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall.

Starting point is 03:05:11 It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app. or wherever you listen to your podcasts. June is Black Music Month,

Starting point is 03:05:32 and on the Drink Chams podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Sway Lee. Do you realize how legendary you are? I appreciate that. I'd be seeing it, but I'm like, man, I still got, like, so much more to do. Like, Prince, he dropped, like, 30 albums.

Starting point is 03:05:46 We dropped, like, five right now. Like, that's the rate we got to be going. Yeah, that's a good attitude. No matter the era, Drink Chams brings you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations. Listen to Drink Chams from the Black Effect podcast network on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Starting point is 03:06:03 Can superstars even exist the way they used to? 2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture, where we still consume things in community. Everybody wanted to be Beyonce at that point. I don't think we'll ever see another beyond. What does it mean to be black and eat in America? You will never make me feel bad for being a black girl, for being a black American girl, ever. From music to food to the... the conversations shaping black culture right now.

Starting point is 03:06:30 Therapy for Black Girls is bringing it all to the mic. Listen to therapy for Black Girls on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I've been hearing for decades that the markets can solve climate change. Today, we have more incentives for market solutions than ever and emissions are rising. On this season of Drilled Carbon Cowboys, the story of three market solutions colliding in one multinational boondoggle. so the guy's credit. They're Republican. They don't give a shit about it in this now.

Starting point is 03:07:02 Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 236

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