Behind the Bastards - It Could Happen Here Weekly 94

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file   You can now listen to all Cool Zone Media shows, 100% ad-free through the Cooler Zone Media subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So, open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “Cooler Zone Media” and subscribe today! http://apple.co/coolerzoneSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

911 what's your emergency? It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. In a killer, we were still on the loose. In the 1980s, we were in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. We weren't safe anywhere. Would we be next? It was getting harder and harder to live in Mompine.

Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The True Crime Podcast Sacred Scandal returns for a second season to investigate a led sexual abuse at Mexico's La Luz del Mundo Mega Church. Journalist Robert Garza explores survivor stories of pure evil experiences at the hands of a self-proclaimed apostle who is now behind bars. I remember as a little girl being groomed to be his concubine, that's how I was raised. It is not wrong if you take your clothes off for the apostle.

Listen to Sacred Scandal on the IHR radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up y'all, this is Eric Andreik, but I made a podcast called Bomming about absolutely tanking on stage. your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch. If you want, if you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Hi, this is Mia.

So before we get to today's episode, last Friday, the rank and file of the Burgerville Workers Union, which is the country's first successful fast food union, went on strike against a campaign of disciplines and firings of primarily trans and POC workers by the bosses who are once again trying to crush the union. The strike has worked so far but they need support from the community to help pay workers and you know help these people feed their families so they can continue fighting the bosses capitalism and building democracy in the workplace. You can go to Bitly slash burger defense to donate to their funds.

We will have linked to that in the description. And yeah, thank you all so much. And now onto the show. and welcome to It Could Happen Sheer, part of Wool Zone Media. I am one of your host, DJ Danel, and I am joined by three wonderful people, one of which is actually gonna lead us to the prop, I didn't press record on my own device. That is all I can do now.

Oh, I'm gonna have to do that all over. Fuck it. Amateur. I cannot believe that. Wait, should we all? Should we all make a new file? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just gonna fuck him, I'm so fucking stupid.

Okay, for a second, I'm doing it. We're gonna do it again, it's gonna do it. I'm just as good. But you know what, I'm keeping all of this in. No, you know what? Yes, I am. Okay. Baa, and welcome to It Could Happen Sheer,

part of the Wollzone Media Network. I am one of your host, DJ Danable. Really, I'm just going to be listening as someone else walks us through. I am joined by three wonderful co-hosts and I'm going to let them introduce themselves. How about we start with the person leading this conversation. James, how you doing? I'm wonderful, Dan. I'm very excited.

And who are we joined by? Jareen, do you want to say hi? Do I want to say hi? This is what I sound like today, everybody. I apologize. Not part of the plan, but hopefully, this is a fun episode to listen to me sound like this. This is Shireen, yeah, I'm here. Shireen is doing her plague cosplay right now

and we are joined by one other wonderful person would you like to introduce yourself? Hi, dad, Mia, me and me are also here. Yay. Notice nothing about sheep, very excited to live around sheep. I'm very excited. Even though I sound like this, I need to be here because I, I've heard so much about chickens last time.

Now a sheep. Yeah, with some pride that you fought through the pain. By the way, bar, sheer and wool is the full extent of my sheep knowledge. So, you know, we got it all out of the way right there. Great. All right, buddy, well, let all out of the way right there. Great. All right, but let's get going, because I've got four pages of bullet points. Oh, God.

I guess it could be a week of sheep content. Wonderful. All right. Yeah, so talking about sheep, the reason we're talking about sheep is because it's a passion of mine and B, because someone on the subreddit, who's, I'm just going to get their username quickly, I can't say the catif, catif, catif. We are one of those. They posted sheep

every day until they guessed a breed of sheep that I had in my mind and when they guessed that they would do a sheep episode. That was two months ago. I think they did it while I was away in a desert. It's like day four. They got it quick too. No, they got to like day, I just searched sheep on the subreddit. One of my friends, like they were like, Oh, I looked at the subreddit for your work stuff the other day and it's just a lot of sheep man. What do you do? Just a lot of sheep. Yeah, but yeah, they did very well. They eventually picked the sheep, which was a Scotch black face,

and famous for being Justin Trudeau's favorite sheep. I gotta get him in, while you can. Well done, well done. Strike a blow against the Canadians. I was wondering if you could talk about that. I think it's impossible to say that on a podcast and not try, I think, but yeah, hopefully, hopefully we've sailed through that one. So when we're talking about sheep, right, when you're thinking of getting sheep, the

first thing I think you have to ask yourself is why? And that is a good question, because obviously they're not a work and they are like born Ready to die and And every point in the sheep owning process We are all born ready to die we just hear temporarily Spooning the idea because they're covered in wool and we die the wall because they're covered in wool, and we die the wool. Smart, ye of the day. Oh, and then I'm drunk. I'm drunk today.

Incredible. I'm out of hand. I'm out of hand. I'm out of ear horns and bombs right there. Yeah, I was going to say, Donald, if you could give yourself like a big old symbol, but that would be great. Okay, so yeah, so when you're looking at sheep, right?

It's a lot of work, and, but they're also very lovely. I enjoy sheep a lot. They can be very friendly. They're nice animal. They're not like cattle. I don't see sheep seem more personable to me. They're soft, which is nice. So when you're thinking about getting sheep, you've got to think, do I want these sheep

for me? Do I want these sheep for wool? Or do I want these sheep for milk? Those are the three main reasons. There are also a thing called park sheep. When we're talking about parks here, we're not talking about like, they live in central park. We're talking about like the, it's the big field in front of a rich person's house. I think this is probably a specifically British thing. And people are looking at me like it's a British thing. So big, stately homes for rich people in Rowlingland will have a big field in the home with

a long driveway on it. That driveway is generally planted with big trees leading up to the house. And it's like, you've watched down to the end of the year. I see that on TV. Yeah, I see. So you can, yes, the end of the year. I've seen it on TV. Yeah, I've seen it all of a sudden. So you can, yes, a country estate, exactly. So like in that country estate,

my dad, both my parents and I culture, my dad worked for someone who had a large country estate, one point my childhood. They would have sheep in that park, but like those sheep aren't really there to like make money, they're dead, it's to look fancy. so that's where you get some really crazy sheep. Yeah, yeah, parking. So yeah, if you want to go ahead and look up Jacob's Jacob sheep, there's some there's some audience participation. So if you guys get open up a tab and Google a That's classic. That's classic. Like old Jacob J.S. Yeah. Yep.

Oh, yeah. Oh my God. Oh, it's called a polyceric sheep because it has multiple horns. I don't know the ones you're seeing have four horns, but that's a classic Jacob sheep and they're pie-bold, right? Multiple colors. I didn't know Horace can look like that on a sheep. Oh, yeah.

There are quite a few polycer that have her D in sheep. Sometimes Navajo Churro sheep, if you're in the United States, are like that too. So yeah, that's an option for sheep. You know, just to paint a picture for anybody who's not also actively Googling this right now. So you're driving in your car going for a walk to your dog and you can't Google something. This is honestly, this is the sheep image that I think was thought of when people think of like a devil sheep or something like that.

I was thinking of this thing. Like at least have sheep like two long horns out the top and horns out the sides. I may just be playing a lot of Diablo IV right now, but I immediately was like, ah, demon sheep. If you check out Hebradian sheep, they look like a very death metal sheep, they're all black.

Oh, fuck, What's the one? Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. Hebradian. He They're terrifying and cute at the same time. Yeah, that's what you want to strive for in life. That's what I go for every time I get dressed in the morning. Me too. Yeah, good. So you're looking at three different types of sheep, right? Basically, your meat breeds, so they're going to grow quickly. They're going to be bigger, which is going to be something

you have to take in consideration when you're handling the sheep, right? And they're going to have more lands. You've got your wool breed, so they might be a smaller, they may need sharing twice a year though. So that's something you're either going to have to do or find someone to do. And they'll give a more desirable wool, right? And there are different types of wool for different things. So that's something you might want to look into. Like if you're considering spinning or you know, you're getting these sheep primarily, so you can go from like farm to jumper, then you need to look into that. And I don't actually know how you sell wool in the US and the UK.

It was kind of a centralized sale. It's not, it's not worth fuck all for the most part, at least unless you've got something like marino sheep. So like don't be getting wool sheep and thinking like, oh, yeah, I'm going to make my fortune in the wool market. That ship has sailed centuries ago. So, kind of the classic sheep you're looking at for, like, a lot of the sheep that you're going to see, at least in the UK, are very often mules. So, that's a crossbreed of sheep.

It's a blue face or border less to ram over a hill breed you. So, hill breed sheep are, they're more hardy, right? They're the ones that live out on the Yorkshire Dales or up in the Lake District, right? When you see sheep up there, there's going to be hillbreed sheep. One of the advantages of hillbreeds is they can often be hefted. Are we familiar with hefting? No. Never. Okay. Hefting is when a sheep knows where it's home is, so it doesn't have to necessarily be fenced in. It will come back there.

Oh. Okay. So, for hefting. Felt it's bent. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's be like sort of go mensing off to try and explore somewhere new, like it will come back.

That is not a characteristic of all breeds of sheep. You will talk about fencing, but definitely most sheep need to be fenced in or they will just get out. Some of them are very acrobatic, but yeah, these guys, they can be hefted, Hillbreed, some Hillbreed can be hefted. So what that means, it's passed down the maternal line. So you're going to have to, to retain that maternal line, right? So as you're breeding your sheep,

you're gonna have to keep the U to the new lamb, and you're gonna have to keep that line because they will teach their lambs to where to come back to, basically, right? Can I ask a really dumb question? Please, Shereen. I recognize it's dumb and I can Google it later, but I need to know.

Okay. I don't have someone that doesn't eat a lot of meat. Do we only eat lamb meat? Does anyone eat sheep meat? I've never heard of sheep meat. Yeah, that's cool. Mushroom. I never thought of it.

Mushroom. Mushroom. Mushroom. Mushroom. Yeah. Have you heard the phrase mushroom dressed to Islam? No. No, I think it's right.

That's what I'm saying. That's like a British one. Yeah, it's definitely probably a British one. I think it's right the sexist. It's used in a condescending way for people who you think are dressing too young for their age, I guess. So you might be familiar with that.

I thought it might be a good, but no. I thought I had a way to explain it to you. But no, mutton, yeah, mutton is the oldest sheep. So there are some breeds that you get for a button. It's not very popular. Like, Americans don't eat as much lamb as British people do. And I think New Zealand does eat a lot of it too, but it's not as common here.

So it's relatively common in the UK, like if you enter a supermarket, you'll see it. Mutton, not so much. You have to cook it for longer in search. The Middle East loves lamb. Yes, they do, not so much. You have to cook it for longer in search. The Middle East loves lamb. Yes. They do. Yeah. Yeah, there's this process. I know you eat a lot of sheep too.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there are lots of, it's a very hardy. Like you couldn't have sheep in a lot of places where you can't have cattle. They're much tougher animals, like, and they don't need as much grazing, right? It's just not as much biomass on a sheep. So like, that's why when you go to hilly parts of the UK, you're going to see sheep and not cattle,

because that's the place where sheep can live. They don't need as quality of grazing for the most part. And so, let me go through a few breeds of sheep, and I'm going to go for what to look for when you're buying a sheep, right? So just some breeds that I've sort of gone off the top of my head here. Texels. And you guys can look these up as we go.

I think that will add to the entertainment factor for the listeners at home. So Texels, they are big units. I'm not as big as some of you as we're going to talk about. They're thick. They're mostly like a meat sheep, pretty lean meat. They are big units, not as big as some of you have said, we're going to talk about that. They're mostly like a meat sheep, pretty lean meat. Yeah, ugly. They're kind of wide face and kind of the big, sort of dominating eyebrows. They kind of look like someone stuck a sheep head on a dog.

Yes. Yeah. They're actually nice sheep. They're not like we had textles growing up. But there is mostly a meat sheep with a bit of wool. Your next one might be a border lester. Sometimes called a blue lester. They're very recognizable that like the blue speckling on their face and then a big Roman nose, I suppose like a domed nose. They've got a big round one. Yeah, big, big schnute on them. So that's

a very recognizable sheep. They again, like a meat and wool sheep with slightly probably more desirable wool than textiles. They're also very good mothers. So that's something you're looking at with with sheep right? Is it going to raise its young? Is it going to stick around? Look after them. And a board less than it's good for that, which is why they're using those mules that I spoke about. it's one of the reasons that you crossbreed them with a hill sheep to make them more hardy, right? Okay. This one is a clean LLEYN,

because you probably want to go that spelling organically that's a Welsh word, and I'm probably mispronouncing it, but it's a meat sheep. It's also got desirable wool. It's also a good mother. They are big, they're like their big units. My mom had those.

And so one of the things you're gonna have to do when you have your sheep is you're gonna have to clip their little feet, because I thought they'd grow too long, just like you have to clip your own fingernails, right? Otherwise, you need to do that. So, and there's a way to do it by sort of grabbing the front leg and sort of dropping your knee a little bit. Like, you're not just suplexing the sheet.

It's a light suplex. When you were usually talking about hefting, I assumed it was something to do with picking the sheep up for some reason. The newer term is archa-oing your sheep. Okay, yeah. Also, this lean sheep looks like to me, to me, the lean sheep, is it lean? Clean. Clean.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that double L sound, and well, she's, it comes at you, hot. It's like, interesting. Yeah. Well, either way, this sheep to me looks like standard sheep. You're like run of the mill sheep. When I Google sheep, this is what I think of. Yeah. That's all once I was sending you some pictures of yesterday. Sometimes I'll send pictures

of sheep to the group chat just for the increase. And we'd love it when it's a well-being. That's the only time I'd like the group chat. Don't tell me. well-being. That's the only time I like the group chat. I don't tell you. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I don't know. I'm going to keep it up for you. Just for you, she's not a key. Keep it in your sheep contact. Come here. You got the Jacob sheep, we'll be spoken about. Right. So that's more of a part sheep. It's a rare breed. So if you're interested in like a rare breed, it's a good thing to do, right? If you're just a person who's like, yeah, be cool to have some sheep. I have some pasture.

Maybe you want them on a horse field because horses will mess up the grass on their own. And horses will shit in an area and that will kind of sour the grass and horses will then not eat that grass. And horses are not really, you know, on a great field. They're the shit where they eat. They're the shit. Yeah, yeah to grate. They're a show where they eat. They're a show where they eat.

Yeah, yeah. She found the other hand. Boom. Yeah. The horse knows the sheep doesn't. So sometimes you have a few sheep in the horses. They can be companions as well. They can be nice companions.

You know, that's where the phrase, you know, the phrase gets your goat, something gets your goat. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's where it comes from, keeping a goat with a horse to keep it company. Nice. Oh, is a sheep a goat?

No, different, different animals. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, no. You're about to go wild. Similar. Similar. I'm sure there's some kind of genus species thing

that I don't understand there, maybe a different species of species. There probably somewhere, yeah, in the century. Yeah, they're, yeah, they're not a million miles apart. So you've got dauppers. I think that's a cross between other dorset and the Persian. They're raised for mutton. So that's if you're looking for your mutton,

shearing, that's where you get that. They have multiple lands a year. So some of these sheep will have can land more than once a year. Herdewik is a good hill breed. They're very highly, a lot of those are up around my dad or my dad lives. Like I said, there are some rare breeds, which if you're interested in like having rare breed sheep

just to preserve like a type of sheep, because obviously like the more heritage breeds are not as commercially viable, so sometimes they get lost, right, because they don't give you a better, a same return on investment. So if you're interested in having sheep, just because it's cool and looks funky, the rare breed survival trust is a place to, like, look, I used to enjoy going there as a kid and seeing different sheep and, you know, learning about, like, that's not a good reason to get a sheep.

Well, if you decide you want to have sheep anyway, right, let's say you're about like, but that's not a good reason to get a sheep. Well, if you decide you want to have sheep anyway, right? Let's say you're like, I don't know what a calf dispersion. So it's going to say a horsey person, a person who owns horses. You know, like if that is your thing, yeah, a horse person, yeah, like a centaur. If you're a centaur,

and then for precisely. Yeah, If you are a half horse, then, um, you know, you want to, you want to have sheep maybe to, to, to, to improve your pasture or to not let the horses sire up all the grass. Then why not, right? Like why not? Um, because like, if you get a, if you get a meat sheep, it's going to be bigger. It's going to be more work. If you get a, a very, a sheep that of a lot of wool, you're going to have to share that a lot. So maybe you just want a sheep that can kind of cruise and be by itself, then, you know, why not?

Yeah. So we're going to talk very leafly about what to do when you buy a sheep. And then we're going to pivot to some other things that you can buy, which are not as rewarding as sheep. Yeah, which is, which is, that's an ad break that we'll do after that. Thanks buddy. I missed that part afterwards. I was like, wait, no, James, don't move on quite yet. I understand now. Very well done. Thank you, Daniel. So when you're buying sheep, I think probably what you want to do is buy some user who have already been bred or a couple of years with twins.

They're a flock animal, right? Sheep out, they don't want to be on their own. So you don't just go and buy like one sheep and be like, yeah, I've got a sheep now. Like that's not very nice. That's not, they'll be insecure and anxious. Oh. So they like to be with other sheep.

So I think the way we used to do it when I was a kid was to get orphaned lambs. And so like the mother either rejects the lamb or she dies giving birth right? Well, which can happen. And we used to then bottle feed those lambs. And like, you know, when they're very little, if you go out on the hill, do people have the argus in America? Sorry, you're looking at, no, okay.

Like, it's a type of oven that, like, it's always on to range cooker. Oh, no. People have people. No, okay, yeah. I can remember like, where I can- I don't know what sheep are. If they're goat or not, you want me to know what sheep are if they're going through that.

You want me to know whatever the fuck you're talking about? No, it's good. It's so much learning. It's type of oven that is in old houses and also rich people's houses. No, it's become like a trendy thing. But like way back in the day, you remember putting lamps in the bottom oven, which is like warm, but not cooking warm, just like warm warm when they were very little and they need to warm up. So with the often lambs, right, you're going to bottle feed them, you're going to do the stuff

that their mother does for them. So that's a lot of work, but you know, it's a way to get going, but they are more fragile when they're young. So what I would suggest is buying a couple of use to have been bred and then you just want to either like if you go locally to somewhere then you'll know this is a type of sheep that can survive and the type of pasture that's near you. This is a type of sheep that can survive in the climate that you have with the food to be available where you are. So that's probably a good thing and then you just want to check that the sheep has some weight on it, right? And you want to check its teeth, of course, like any livestock. You want to be checking the teeth when you're buying them. And then a thing I've run into. What are you, so what are you looking for on the teeth?

If they're all fucked up, like that sheep is not healthy, right? Like receding gums or like kind of, if it's much older, that's you can tell you can normally age an animal by looking at its teeth, right? Like if you find a if you find a the remains of an animal to one way to see the age of it. So yeah, you go to the auction, you don't want to check the vaccine status as well. I've only really come across this in the United States recently. Some people were rage posting on the place I go to to buy chickens because I didn't want to buy vaccinated chickens, which is just fucking the animal like Texas. Oh, wow.

Yeah, because Bill Gates wants to know what your chicken is thinking, right, which is why he microchips it. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh my God. Pricks. Yeah, if you don't want to buy vaccine, I don't know. Yeah, if you're listening to the show, then don't want to buy Vax, I don't know. Yeah, if you're listening to the show,

then this is not a concern of ours, I don't think. But yeah, check the vaccine status. Just in case you got some why who trying to sell you some sheep, which are more likely to get sick. So yeah, what were if you, I can't fucking come up with an ad, I don't know. If you want to buy something that's no use to you and won't give you joy, instead of sheep, here are some adverts.

Okay, so we're back and we're still talking about sheep. And it will probably will be quite some time for on page one. So sheep are actually quite clever. She could recognize human faces. They'll know who you are. They've definitely, definitely know that. Like, especially the sheep that we bottle fed from when they were babies, right? They definitely knew who we were.

And they could be very friendly. Yeah, it's nice. It's nice to come up to you and those sort of nozzle you and you can rub them. Oh. Our sheep were pulled. That's another thing to think about when you're getting the sheep, right?

A pole sheep doesn't have horns. Where it's some people have horns and people have more horns. So yeah, they can recognize your faces. They can learn names. They have a name. They can learn the name. They also ignore that they're sheep.

So, I know my mom would just go out and go like sheep, and then she'd feed them and they'd come. So, they're just thinking, you know, they've got a positive reinforcement mechanism. You can't try and sheep to go on a lead. So another reason you might want to get sheep is you're getting into showing. A nice thing to do, if you, you know, a strange, like me, I suppose,

is go to like an agricultural show and look at different types of sheep. I like to do that. It's, they can be really expensive now because it's also the county fair. And so people are going into eat like deep fried stuff, which doesn't interest me as much. But if you want to go and see it, yeah, yeah, we could go together, Dan. I'll get a super.

That's all perfect. Maybe I'll be mad you could up and then me back at the end and be like, how was your day on? I'm like, what was that? It was bad. Yeah. You won't be saddled with regret if you look at sheep and into Jeskin. Yeah.

So yeah, consider. Yeah, but it's nice to go. You won't be saddled with regret if you look at sheep and into Jeskin. So yeah, consider. Yeah, but it's nice to go. See the breed to the popular in your area, see different types of sheep. And what people will do at least, I've never been to a natural sort of showing sheep. I'll just go to the San Diego County Fair and look at the animals, but I've not been to a show where you walk around with them in the US. But I used to do that when I was a kid. I think of, you know, go to the village show or everyone take the sheep and walk it around and then they'll judge your sheep, right? If it's up to the breed standards or have you. So yeah, they can go on their lead. They like more of like a halter like around the nose. So not like a collar.

That's the thing that you can do. That's it. That interest you if you want to get into sheep showing. If that's the case, you're gonna want to get it, that interest you if you want to get into sheep showing. If that's the case, you're going to want to get like a pedigree sheep right? And you're really getting to it. You're going to drop some money. It's not really like I was never a very serious sheep show to be clear of just a thing for your child to do when you go up in a rural area. They, like I said, they like to be together in groups.

They're pretty docile. Like, sheep aren't going to fight you. Definitely, definitely, like, when I was at university, my staff friends would come home and they'd be very scared of the sheep. There's no reason to be scared of sheep. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being hurt by a sheep.

What about a whale? Yeah, I mean, what, they're going to come at you a bit sometimes, they're angry or whatever, but like it's a sheep, like it's fine. I would back you, Shereen, if it came to it. Okay, thank you. Yeah, like, yeah, and their horns are mostly like not pointed towards you. I have been gawd by a bull, right? Like I have experienced, like livestock related injury.

Sheep is definitely on the list of animals, I'm pretty sure I could take. Yeah, pretty sure. This next fact is fascinating to me. Can we get to this fact? Yeah, sure. So definitely, if you're thinking of breeding, getting rams, about like eight percent are gonna be gay.

It's just a thing that's gonna happen, right? Yeah. Gay sheep, gay sheep. Yeah. Yeah, you wait till we get to the next one. Yeah, it's just a thing, right? You're going to get a sheep this gay. It's a natural part of the diversity of any species. I kind of definitely know people who spent a lot of money on pedigree rams and they've turned out to be gay. It's what it is, right? Like, get me about this weird stupid American, it's not just an American thing, but it's like, oh, it's not natural, whatever, like I know anyone who's worked with livestock in their life will for a number of years will tell you that they've gone across a gay sheep or cow or what have you.

And some, you're also going to get sometimes some sheep are called free martins. It's a transmask sheep for the most part. It actually has some biological differences. So like, yeah, what it is, is there's a female that's been a company, so like the twins or triplets or quads sometimes, that has been accompanied by male features in utero. So they behave in a masculine way, and they might lack functioning ovaries. Yeah, you're gonna get those two, right? So they're gonna be a bit more agrar like a ram about your stuff, but it's just things,

part of natural, the diversity and species. You're gonna see it. You know, you might have a gay sheep lucky you, right? Cherish it, take it, you know, be nice to it. So white fleeces, right? Generally, we think of sheep, but Dana was saying, you don't think of a white fleece. That's, while sheep are often brown, right, being white is not a great camouflage trait. So when we see a white sheep, that's because it's generally been selected, right?

So when you look to the Jacob sheep, they were high bought, right? They had bits of brown on them on the white fleas. Being white, have a pizzeria dominant trait, so it's very, very quickly. And then if you're looking at the wall of a sheep, you want to consider if you want fine, medium or coarse wool, long wool sheep, right? If you look up sheep with long wool, some amazing reads out there, those are mostly for breeding to get more desirable wall characteristics. Like long wall sheep, it's going to be quite hard to look after that sheep, right?

Stop it. It's wall getting matted and stuff. And so now we're going to get it to fencing. So it's an important topic. So you want your fencing to be about chest high, obviously depends on your height, like if you're a smaller person, a bit higher, whatever. But like, we would generally use post and rail fencing. You don't see that as much in the US, but it's named pretty self-explanatory, right? Bang in a post, rail across the middle, bang in a post, rail across the middle. And then you're going to want some netting. You don't have to use like with chickens, we talked about using construction netting, right?

Like very thin wire just so that like things like snakes and rats don't get in with cheap. You don't need that. The you can go with a wider mesh, 24 or 5 inches across. And that's going to be cheaper for you as you're building the fence. And you can also use electric fences and you can use those to rotate the pasture, which is a good idea. So the sheep kind of graze one area that you move across to another area, that area recovers. You move the sheep to the next area, they graze that area where the other area is recovered. Okay. You learned about this in school, right?

Yeah, shortly. I'm curious, how does the electric fencing do that? Are you constantly moving it? And is that just like when the sheep touch it, they're like, oh, not that way and go back. Like, what is elected to do that? They're not thick. They'll touch it once and then they won't go maybe twice and I'll give it. Oh, yeah, no, I'll be precisely.

And so how is it doing that? It says that the electric fences are like plastic posts that you stick in the ground and then it has a metal spike on the end. And then it's got this, it's about that wide, that inch wide, it's a ribbon with little metal bits in it. And the post has a way of securing that ribbon to it. So you can move that fencing around.

Okay, cool. So the reason, I mean, it being electrified is kind of like secondary. It's mostly the same movable fence post. That's why you're using it for the grazing purposes. Yeah, it doesn't have the same structure as a normal fence. So it has gaps which a sheep probably could slip through a bit with just wire because it's electric. It's not going to try and

thus a little way through because it's going to get shot. So if you're using electric fence just like the classic way to tell it's on right, if you pick up a piece of grass and then you just touch the fence with the grass. Because the grass is a poor conductor, you're going to feel a little bit of a shot. Are you trolling right now? No, no, no, for real. That's what you do. Yeah, you touch it with a piece of grass and that's going to, you're going to get like

a slight tingle, but you're not going to get a full whack. Growing up, the electric fence is all over the place right after running to them when I was a kid and taking a whack or like, you know, the post have a big spike on the end, so they're very fun to throw at your friends. It, you know, was a lasting injury. But yeah, it's electric fancy gives handy. You just hook it up to a car battery basically. But so you like, yeah, no, it's a good way to segment your field.

If you have one field, you know, if you're not rotating there, sheep, did you really not learn about field rotation? Sorry, I'm constantly amazed by the things that I did in school that Americans don't do in school. Not at all. Agriculture in any capacity. Yeah, there was no agriculture training. I mean, at least in my school.

The only far my saw was on like the tub of butter. Yeah. Like that's literally what the most important thing. So I drove past farms. I think I grew up closer than you two did with side of corn from my backyard. And they were okay, we didn't have agriculture education like my school, but like there were schools

that like I went to to do like like chess, discolassable, I was I was in there. But like there were there were lots of schools that like did stuff like that because they were in like more real parts of Illinois. So that is a thing here. I think it's just we didn't come up in the agricultural issues.

I think I learned it in the context of like the enclosure of the commons in the four field rotation and like using legumes to fix nitrogen in the soil. And again, blank, blank, blank, blank, face the whole. Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, different strokes for different folks.

I, you know, at me on Twitter.com if you learned about legumes in school. So to be clear, what is preferred to learn about that? Just to be clear, like algebra two, forget it. I would much rather learn about legumes. When have you used algebra? Not done. Someone else is using it. But you know, you can, yeah,

think of what you could be doing with nitrogen right now if you were growing some peas. Oh, what if? Incredible things. Yeah. And so with your sheep, depending on the breed, you're gonna need shelter, right? So that shelter could be something like a cops, a little cops of trees.

That's a small, it's big, a smaller than a wood, is a cops. So you're going to need a decent amount of trees for them to shelter. Some will need more shelter than others, right? Depending on how hardy they are. Some of them will want to lamb inside and some of them are able to lamb outside. They all will need some shelter and foul weather. You'll see that they're very good at knowing where to shelter, but you can't sleeve them out.

When I'm in agricultural states in America where these giant prairies, you don't have hedgerows in the same way that we did where I grew up. Then if you are there and you're trying to have some sheep, you're going to need to build a little shelter for them. Is there any question about the shelter? Yeah, yeah. Is it what's the shape of the shelter? Is it kind of like, is it like a house? Is it more like a barn like?

It's a bedding on the breed. No, not like barn. You have a barn to bring them in, like, so we used a lamb inside, right? And then you just use pallets to divide it up. And the pallets you put each of you in there with her lamb. That's okay. And we'll get onto that. And all cops are barns joke is not gonna happen.

Okay, sorry, Daniel. No, that's okay. I'll let you down again. That's okay, it's not on you. But yeah, you'll see all kinds of things. You'll see, thanks. You'll see it, like people just put a little stone shelters. You know, if you have a prevailing wind

that's like rips through and it's cold wind, then you might want to build something just a shelter from that prevailing wind. But they just, you know, if it's like a big undifferentiated prairie. And especially lambs, right? They're more fragile because they're younger. And sometimes you'll see the lambs

wearing little coats and little little jackets that they can wear. And what about that? Yeah, you can Google that. Just like to do your lambs or into jacket. Or into getting these little plastic jackets for them. But you do need to be cautious with lambs when they're young. Sometimes I could say you'll have midside.

And thing was sheep regarding feeding? Is it they are of ruminants? Do we know what ruminant animals are? No, yes. Absolutely. Massively fail by your education. And it's a ruminant, it choose the cut. And so when it eats a food, right,

it goes to the ruminant and then it holds the food, right, it goes to the room in and then it holds the food, the food is regurgitated. What are you saying? What are these moments? Oh, it's like cow, it has like multiple stomachs. Yes, yeah, yeah. It's like the room in like the first stomach. Yeah. So the room is the big stomach, right? And it's in there that it's like a storage space really. So the food goes in there, chills for a bit, and then it's regurgitated, chewed back up, and then re swallowed. And that is the cud. That's true. That's that process is called chewing the cud. Yeah. Chewing the cud. That is the right. So is that entire process chewing the cud, like

it going into the room and then being regurgitated, or is it strictly just the chewing that happened before they eat it again? like it going into the room and then being regurgitated, or is it strictly just the chewing that happened before they eat it again? I think it's a chewing that happens when they eat it again. Right, so like the first eating, it's just eating, the second eating, she reads having a physical reaction. That's for good. Normally, it is, it's extremely early.

That's how they get the most out of like this relatively lean posture, right? It's a very clever adaption. So that's how that's how she'd eat. So that means that they need to have access to pasture. They also need lots of water. So again, if you're in a desert place, I should ask Navajo folks. I know Navajo folks, they should ask them how they do with their

treasurer sheep because it's not a densely watered place there. So no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no that you shouldn't relate. Like, you can't keep your feet cheap in a place where there's no pasture really. You don't want to be feeding them all yet. They need varied pasture, right, with different things, you know, clovers and grasses. And the stuff that's poisonous for them, so that they're a different weed sort of poisonous for them. You're just gonna want to, it depends where you live, right?

They're listening to this in the UK. It's different to North America, probably different to South America. So you'll want to check that out again, when you're buying a sheet. You could ask these kind of questions and go ahead and pull those out. So you can feed them grain, but you really only want to do that sort of durin or just before laming. It can lead to overfeeding. It's too rich for them, right? Like they're designed with this room and its system to have these green leafy things. People can use bagged feeds to, again, you don't want to rely on those all the time, they're expensive.

Don't use cow food. Like bagged cattle food, it's not going to work for sheep. And they need a mineral lick too. So I'm sure you're all familiar with salt licks. That's a similar thing, right? They'll just come up and lick that. They know where they need the salt or the minerals. So they they know. So they'll just come and lick it. So you just put that out in the field. It's pretty chill. Don't learn. So a big problem we had was like we had some sheep in the field

next to our house. They were our sheep. There was someone else's sheep, but like they have ever getting into the garden mainly because I'm terrible at closing gates and doors and and so they would get into the garden. You do want to be careful. They will go like it is the time of their lives when they get in your garden. They can eat or your plants, but you do want to watch out for things like Brody Dendron, which can be dangerous to them. They can be poisonous. If you've got stuff in your garden, either don't have stuff as poisonous to sheep or be aware,

if they're getting in there, I had to throw the dendron and some hand them off at the pass. Shureen, would you like to insert your... Well, just as... You're just the shepherd. we are the herd following you. And so to everyone that wants to be a sheep, listen to these ads. We're back. My sheep.

And I laughed. I laughed. I laughed. I laughed. I laughed. I laughed. I laughed. I laughed. I laughed at you. I laughed at you.

I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you.

I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you.

I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed at you. I laughed barbers, you know, and they just go out you in this hair on the floor, you're looking to take it off as a complete fleece, and there's a technique to that. It's, you're just not going to, if I can get it straight away, like you're going to have to learn, or you're going to have to pay someone to do it. I don't really know how that works in America, again, because like there's not such a density of sheep, so maybe there's not someone who does it, lots of this stuff, like getting your use ultrasound it when they're pregnant.

Not sure how you go about that in an affordable manner in the United States. Like, if you have a large animal vet, you can ask them, but you do want to do that, right? Check that, how many lambs you've got and stuff. Of course. But, yeah. So, I guess you're just going to have to learn or give it a try. Like, as long as you're not hurting the sheep, if you're taking it off, yeah. So, I guess you're just gonna have to learn or give it a try. Like, as long as you're not hurting the sheep,

if you're taking it off, it clumps, it's supposed to not that bad. Just, you know, but you don't want to be nipping and hurting the sheep itself when you're sharing, right? And that's just like if you're a person who shave, so, you know, cuts her in her hair or what have you, you know, it's not pleasant if you nick the skin. Absolutely.

Yeah. So. Do sheep need to get rid of the hair? Yes. But then how if we didn't exist, how would they do that? Well, we wouldn't have bred them selectively to have such dense and long fleas if we didn't exist. So there are hair sheep, which have hair instead of wool, and those sheep don't need to be shorn. But because the centuries, we've bred them to be willier because we like the wool. Then now we've made our bed and we have to line it,

like we, she depend on us and we depend on the sheep. It's like the Yin and Yang of sheep husband-during. The Yin and Yang that we created without their permission. Yeah, yeah, the sheep and the Yin unionying that has been forced upon them. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's not a, not a consensual relationship. Right. So, yeah, that will happen, sure, and if you don't share them, and some, some you'll need to do twice a year, some once a year, some you won't at all, if they're hair-sheet, right?

But they'll get like matted wool, so like the poo and other things will like kind of, like just if you like, if you don't wash your hair for a long time, you know, it gets kind of knotted and matted. Got it, got it, yeah. Yeah, so that, and also they can get over here. Say no more. Say no more.

I'm just, yeah, I don't want me to go further. Yeah, so. I don't make sense though, that makes sense. Yeah, I don't know how you sell wool in the USA, you know, just get on Etsy and do something with it. If you want to sell it, I suppose, you know, learn to spend, get a spinning wheel, you learn to card, card the wall and then spin it and then knit it and then sell it. I suppose it will keep things for yourself. It'll be fun, you know, if you have free time. What is carding?

Yeah. It's when you're like taking the wall and like, like combing it. Uh huh. Like pulling it. I'm not super many with stuff, I remember again. Tessie, it's just a different world, isn't it? See, we would go to like the Black Country Museum

when I was a kid in school, not a racial thing. It's a part of Britain where there was a lot of industry. One of the things I would do was like, oh, this is how people used to do wool, like the spinning genie and like before that, like in cottage industry when people would make it at home. Okay. Or like when you go to the library to viable trust about about that, they'll let you do some spinning or carting when you're going there.

I got a quick explanation for you. Got a quick explanation for you. So if for those folks at home who have hairy animals, you know those kind of like brushes that have fine little metal bristles on them and you're brushing you just take off like a huge clump of hair. Now imagine they do.

The thumbnail you take a, imagine you take a fresh piece of wool straight off of the sheep and you put it on there and then you just kind of tease it out to form it into what looks more like raw wool that you're used to as opposed to looking like it was just taken off a sheep. You're turning into the raw wool that you're used to as opposed to looking like it was just taken off a sheep. You're turning into the raw wool that will then be spun. I'm looking at it right now and it looks absolutely exhausting. Yes, fun. Sorry, yes, fun.

Yeah, fun. Good thing to do. Like, once Twitter inevitably collapses, we can return with a V to tradition and do this sort of stuff instead. There you go. Yeah. collapses we can return with a V to tradition and do this or as definitely instead. I'm sure Elon Musk, not the author, may have returned to tradition people already do it. It's nice for your hands, it's very nice for your hands, just generally handly because they have lannolin, right? Lannolin is this kind of natural, I think it's like a soap thing, it makes lathering, but it's very good for softening your skin.

So you'll see, you'll notice this nice of your hands when you're handling the sheep, right? And you'll notice that's nice hand feeling. It's not expensive, like hand cream. You're gonna have to make sure that you trim your sheep's hooves. So depending on your size and the sheep size and your sort of skill handling sheep, you

might want to get a sheep flipper. We got one from my mum a couple of years ago. It's just a device that helps you turn the sheep so that you can clip its hoves instead of just getting in there with the knee and the link. There's a way to do it. A lot of this stuff you can learn on YouTube. I checked before this and there's definitely videos on how to turn them over and keep the hoops. So yeah, you can give it a try, that doesn't work. You can get a sheep flipper. You sort of, yeah, you sort of drop your knee into it and turn it over. I'm so happy that there is an advice that exists called the sheep flipper. This has made my day a measure, we better. Oh yeah.

Yeah, I'll say to you some videos. There's some good videos of me trying to turn my mom's sheep like so we can click the hoves and it was like wet and slippery and made as fetching myself on my ass instead. And sheep just like making a bid for freedom. So yeah, you watch a couple of videos, you can work it out, and if that doesn't work for you,

you can get a sheep flip. You're gonna have to do things like dipping and deworming your sheep too, where may you just put in their mouth as it goes into mouth and you squeeze. It looks a bit like a gun, I suppose, or like a little tiny pipe, like maybe a quarter of an inch

Size your pinky and it go in and you press the thing and it dispenses a dose It kind of gets it behind their tongues and it's a bit out dispenses a bit of warmer gun was the perfect word to use for my Americanized brain. I'm totally Yeah, I thought yeah, I was gonna you know, I was thinking gun hot dog bull eagle, what reference would you understand? And so, you're gonna also have to dip your sheep to prevent things like scab. And so that's literally when the sheep dipped in this stuff that sort of cleans them, right? So, there are mobile sheep dips,

so you can just go to a sheep dip, take a sheep to a sheep dip and do it there. Again, I've never seen one in the US. I'm sure there are some, but I'm not sure how you do this. I think you can also spray them for this. And you'll want to check, obviously, it'll kind of dips illegal. And you don't want to be dipping them with cuts. So, like, if you have just been through your sharing and you've cut them up, that's not a good time to do it. And you don't want to dips first you sheep either for obvious reasons, right? Because it's what they're going into is not

something you want to be drinking. So predation, predation's an interesting topic. Sheep are not really great at defending themselves. They just kind of big fluffs. They can sort of butt a little bit with their heads and then they do do that. And they'll defend their little lambs. When we were little and we had dogs, if the dog, when it was a puppy, would chase sheep, you could put the dog in a little pen with a U and her lambs and the U would be like, okay, get away, get away, go away, leave my lambs alone. And then the dog would be less likely to, get away, get away, go away, leave my lambs alone. And then the dog would be less likely to chase you again, because it's had this probably not great

to give the dog a traumatic experience and the U, I suppose. But they'll defend their lambs like that. But when you've got, especially if you're in North America, right, you've got like mountain lions, you've got coyotes, you've got bobcats, you've got all kinds of bigger stuff than I'm used to. So a couple of options there, you've got Guardian animals, right? So something like a llama, a donkey, or a livestock guardian dog. Me as enjoying the idea of a guardian donkey.

But the couple of different benefits to each one, a lot of it, a lot of it can be pretty mean. And I'm sure you guys have seen them, I've been spat on by a few Lama. They're still spitting in the kick. Yeah, then a bitey and it's just really sort of obnoxious creatures, but yeah, they don't mess about. So those are decent, you know,

it looks like one of the sheep has just worldly deformed a bit of running around with the sheep. You can get donkey. Donkey's also quite defensive and very loud. So you know, if your sheep are in a field near your house and you have a donkey, it's going to kick off at night. Something happens. Making it's characteristic.

Donkey noises and that will give you chance to respond. And then you've got your livestock guardian breeds, right? Like Pyrenees. This is a great example. People will probably see my pictures of the St. Jesus Yulacorn ranch. They have Pyrenees dogs. Very helpful actually when you're being attacked by bigots. Because the dogs will bark. But guardian dogs are inherently they want to guide your sheep, but so they'll just go out there and they'll move among the flock and they'll bark and run off any attackers. And they're very, they're good,

it's entirely in their breeding to do it. It's very funny actually, because chuds have this, like, I'm a sheep dog thing, you know, when they walk around with like five knives and two guns and a pepper spray. And then they always have a picture of Border Collie. That is not what a Border Collie does. A Border Collie is like a dog with extreme anxiety that it's obsessed with collective security and will just, like, Border Collie's naturally heard things, right?

So I'm sure, like, you've seen, people seen like one man his dog, the TV program. No, again, used to be on a something nice when I was little. It's a competition, a sheep hurting with dogs competition. It's their rules. Yeah, yeah, perhaps one of them more. I've met American people who do this competitively, but I think it's more of a hobby than a way of life. But yeah, so you can Google one man as dog and watch different competitions.

Obviously, it's not gendered and it can be a person in their dog. But yeah, that's what border collies do, right? They hurt the sheep. And when they're little, like you can start them out with hurting chickens or ducks in your, in your, like, if you have a farm yard, they'll go right there and hurt ducks. Just by themselves, they want to do it.

And they're just in their breeding. But a guardian dog does not do that. It just protects. But I think, like, this is one of the things that we spoke about with those chickens, right? Like, if you want to have sheep, you're probably going to have to either, like, well, if you're not willing to defend them from predators, you probably shouldn't have them, because it's a bit mean to just put them out there. It's like coyote bait, um, a lion bait, or whatever. Like, you might have to shoot something that looks like a dog if you don't want your sheep to die.

And like, just how it's got to go down, you know? Like, it's not everyone has to have livestock. I'm not a person who eats animals. So, like, it's... I mean, I think similar to chickens, most people should have chickens or sheep. Like, you know what I mean? The vast majority of people in my opinion are better off not doing that

just because like I don't think people realize the responsibility even with all this information. I think some people get to, they jump the gun for lack of a better fucking term. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, totally. Like don't be rushing into getting livestock. Like it's very, like I've seen people do that before.

I've seen people do the whole, like I'll quit my job as a banker and come and live on a farm thing. And like, I don't just don't, go and work on someone's farm. Right? If you want to do that, you'll learn. If you didn't grow up in this,

like there are a million things that I'm not telling you. And I'm forgetting to tell you that I take for granted. And like it just, it takes time and it's complicated and, and sometimes it's very sad, right? Like I said, she gets sick and they die and that's sad and they get predated and that's very sad. And the lambs get predated. It's really sad. So like, I don't know, it's not for everyone. It is certainly having a flock of sheep is quite big. And you can't, you know, you can't be like, oh, I'm off to a land to, right?

I don't think a lot of people have the land, even necessary for that. So, I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, I'm so passionate about this, that I actually have to go now. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, believe it, yes. Okay.

I have to record something else with this voice. So, yeah. Until next time. Yeah. Keep on putting on. Bye, Shurina. Talk to you. Bye. Thanks. Bye. Okay, we're going to briefly cover LAMMING and then we're, we can be done. So like I said, you can pick up orphaned lamb's, a good way to add to your flock. The thing with little baby lamb's is when, when a first born, right, if the mother is, either won't feed them, sometimes she won't feed them, or if she dies, they're going to

need what's called colostrum. Familiar with colostrum? That name sounds more familiar. No, I feel like I'm looking at that. Briefly, it was like an athletic performance supplement tread. It's a milk that comes in the first 24 hours. It's extra rich. Yeah, from whatever animal went in any mammal, I would imagine. Milk produced by the memory glands of humans and other mammals, immediately following delivery of the newborn.

Yeah, that's a better summary than I made. Thank you, Donald. Thank you, Wikipedia. Yeah, always. So, they're going to need 500 mils on the first day. It's about a pint. You'll want it to be warm, so you can buy frozen classroom.

You can buy powdered classroom, but you don't wanna microwave it. The classroom has some antibodies in it, which help the little sheep, like, stomach, I suppose, get ready for the world. So that's why you don't want to microwave it. So generally they're pretty easy to bottle feed. Like if you stick your finger in, the lamb will just like start sucking on that. It's a good sign that it's, you know, it's ready to bottle feed, it's easy to bottle feed.

So you can sometimes do that kind of a way to lure them in and then start bottle feeding them. Sometimes you have to sort of rub them a bit to get them to feed. So you can sometimes do that's kind of a way to lure them in and then start bottling feeding them. Sometimes you have to sort of rub them a bit to get them to feed. And then they like to have their milk powder if you're doing powdered milk with these often amounts. Every four hours, you're just going to gradually increase the amount you feed them. And they'll need things like a heat lamp to keep them warm because they don't have that big heat sink of them, I'm bedding and water and a bit later it's a bit easier, you can get a bucket with teats so you're literally screwing the teats to go on a milk bottle onto the bucket instead so they can drink out that. It's a lot of work getting off a lamp. They'll want

to eat about every four hours. It doesn't matter if you're sleeping. They still want to eat. I can remember doing that a lot when it's little. You can get, once the lamp gets a bit older, you're going to want to do things like you might want to castrate it, depending. You might want to dock it to tail, depending. You might want to vaccinate it or you do want to vaccinate it. But also, they need time to be social with other sheep, so you can't just get one off the lamb and raise it, like some kind of sheep person, they need to play with other sheep, they need to have time to run around. They can be quite fun, they'll follow you around often, but the law can

keep them running around and they'll follow you around, so that's kind of fun. And then you do eventually, like if you're, especially if you're raising a lot of orphaned lambs, you're going to have ram lambs, right? And so you're either going to have to castrate those or sell them because you're going to create an issue of inbreeding within your flock otherwise. If you just keep all the lands, right? And so that's the thing to think about. If you're going to have sheep, at some point, you're either going to need to buy more or breed them. And if you're going to breed them, what are you going to do with the random names? So you can castrate them, they become weathers, and that's generally where meat comes

from that people eat. You don't want to participate in that. You're just going to pass that on someone else, right? You know, unfortunately, this is commercial agriculture, even if you don't eat meat, like it's about killing animals, Right, which is why I don't like to do that. Yeah, so with lambs, when you've got pregnant youth, you'll want to scan them, see how many lambs there are, that helps you make feeding decisions for the pregnant you. That's sort of when you can look at,

like how many lambs are coming, right? How much does she need to eat? And then once you've done this, you want to get your barn ready for laming. Just put, we used to use pallets. You know, pallets things come on when you buy like a lot of sheep food, for instance, you know, it comes on a pallet with a fork lift

and get under, you could just use those to separate out little stalls and to lamin, put some straw in there. And then when they land, just because again, they've been bred selectively for so long, they can sometimes struggle to deliver. And if you're of the means to do so, having a vet, of course, is lovely, right?

Like a large animal vet. But generally, if people who are farming commercial, you don't have the resources to do that. It's just not, it doesn't fit with the cost of doing that. So you mostly do it yourself. Like I've done it a lot. You, you'll want to get yourself a full arm glove, like a full plastic glove,

I guess like a sleeve glove, and then you can, you can do a lot in terms of like turning them around if it's coming out the wrong way or helping the delivery. I'll leave you to Google that on your own time. You just need to do all that one. No, I think it's a, yeah, it's a miracle of life, Donald. Then you just, beautiful in its own ways. Yeah, it's really sweet when you get the lamb out and you're like, oh yeah, I tend it

round and it's, get it pops up and it does a little shake and it stands on its little feet. It's very sweet. It's kind of amazing, compared to human babies, human babies come out and like, I've seen a few human babies and they're just like not particularly useful or capable in their early life. But labs come out and they like get up

and they can run around and they can suckle and like, you know, within 24 hours, they're like a functional tiny sheet. So that's great, it's nice. So you do want to, when they're born, right, you just sort of get into the little nose and mouth area and just clear that from anything that might be blocking it, just so they can breathe. You can use a bit of straw to get into the little nostrils, just to sort of get any mucus or whatever out. And then you cut the umbilical cord up

staying disinfect that just with some iodine. I think you can see actually though, I said you won't picture the lamb last night where it's, you can see where it's been disinfected and it's on the billacle cord. Sometimes you just want to strip a couple of, like you just want to check that you can give milk. Sometimes the teeth can get plugged up

when they're pregnant, so you just go give it a little squeeze. Yes, so then within a week you're going to want to do things like docking tails and castorating. Some breeds can lamb outside, but some can't. So again, this is all stuff to consider when you're trying to buy your sheep. The last thing I've got about lambing is sometimes you use will reject the lamb. You can either try anding is sometimes you use to reject the lamb. You can either try and like hold the you in place so the lamb can suckle. Or if she's really hurting them, then you take them away

and then you have to look after them yourself. And then they become your little friends and you can give them names. Yeah, it's very sweet. It's fun. Like I said. Unfortunately, like- They're not so sweet. Yeah, yeah, right. This is a thing with commercial agriculture, right? Like it's

the nature of the fit. Like if you're, if you have cattle, what are you going to do with the, with the, you know, any male offspring of any species, right? Even if you just have the sheep, anyone to have them for milk, cool, but like they're not going to continue lactating for their whole life. So they're going to have to have lambs. And if they're going to have to have lambs, you're going to have to decide what you want to do with the ram lambs. And so it is a difficult thing. It's not for everyone, but yeah, sheep, wonderful creatures, very friendly. You know, if you're walking past, you could see if someone's trained them to come to the worst sheep, just by shouting sheep at them. And if not, you know, passes by will think you've correctly identified the species. Big dub for you, either way.

Yeah, the sheep is a wonderful animal. It's a very friendly of all the farm animals. I think they're my favorite and just growing up around them. If you're small, like, you know, only do it if you're a very little human, probably not old enough to listen to some of the content we broadcast. If you just want to be in like single digits, but you can ride them, you can sort of sit on the phone on the shoulders and ride them around. Wow, really? It's not a controlled experience. I can just run because it doesn't. It doesn't look like you want it's back. And it might not be very nice for sheep thinking about it, but many wonderful things you can do as sheep. They're very rewarding to have, I will say, but yeah, it's sad. It's also a difficult

thing. So yeah, it did something to consider. If you do milk them, they make good cheese. I think that is the primary reason that people dairy sheep is for cheese. I don't think many people are probably drinking sheep milk. And please don't let me know if you are. It's fine. I'm happy for you. It's no need to share. No.

Yeah, sheep, every wool pair of socks, every wool jumper that you have, every sheep's cheese that you eat comes from these wonderful animals now. You know a little more about, and you can get sheep soap too. That's my last plug for this, sheep soap. Looks like a sheep, but in the middle of it, it's so cute. Yeah, it's very good for washing your hands.

And maybe one day we will have cool zone media sheep soap for you to buy. Yeah, I saw pictures of it, that's a pass for me. But you know what, there's a lot of people out there who love merch. So all more power, more power to them. Yeah, disappointing, Donald, anti-sheep action. Yeah, post pictures of your sheep and tag me

on various social media. Some people already do. But yeah, that's about all I got on sheep. Any sheep questions before we go? I mean, I will say each new sheep fact brought up another sheep question, but I think you did a great job of explaining owning sheep, taking care of sheep, rearing sheep, lambing.

I mean, I've come away with a whole bale full of knowledge about sheepies. Me, what about you? Yeah, I've learned, there's the sheep flippers. I can't get over you. The sheep flippers. The side right. Yeah, RKO and you're sheeped to shoot and it's great. Yeah, we can do one way.

You teach me one, RKO, it's dental. I will teach you by showing you as opposed to performing it, but yes, I will definitely teach you. Yeah, that's our next live show. It's, but yeah, enjoy the stuff that you now know about sheep, everyone. Yeah, and this has been, it could happen here, find us on the internet at cool zone media or It could happen here pod right I

Never do this happen here put but I know it needs to happen happen here pod. Yeah, that's one of those. Thank you Yeah, yeah Put it into the search engine of your choice. It'll come up. Do you guys want to plug anything before we leave me? You go first. Oh, I got nothing. I got Elon Musk got me so I don't have social media anymore. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. I guess if you're in the US, check out Navajo Chura sheep. Every cool Navajo Chura sheep association. It's good to support Indigenous folks. Rest of us will be sheep farming. I'm stalled in land, so. Mm-hmm, facts.

It's all solid, then. Everything we're doing is all stolen land. You can check me out on Twitch. I'm Twitch.tv slash DJ underscore.dannel. That's it. Magic. Thank you, Donald. Cool.

All right, let's end it. The End that he was Jesus Christ on earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex. He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of. For three generations, the Luz del Mundo had an incredible control on his community that began in Mexico and then grew across the United States until one day. A day of reckoning for the man

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Oh my God! It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. And a killer who is still on the loose. My small town rocked by murder. There are certain murders I'm scared to discuss. In the 1980s we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. One after another, after another, for a decade. We weren't safe anywhere. We're teenagers

terrified to leave our own homes. Would we be next? Who is killing all the kids? And why? In that moment, I saw rage. And why do you some want the town secrets to stay dead and buried forever? I'm not sure why you're digging up all this old stuff again, but I'd be careful. Don't say I didn't warn you, Nancy. Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey what's up y'all, this is Eric Andreck, but I made a podcast called Bomming about

absolutely tanking on stage. I'm talking about your most amazing experiences in the performance. I tell gnarly stories and I talk to friends about their worst moments of bombing in all sorts of ways. Bomming on stage, bombing in public, bombing in life. Like the time I stole a girl's phone during a set and she dumped on stage and threw a big A-maker punch to my nose. I want to know what's the worst way they ever bombed or performed way too drunk or high.

It was there every time where they thought they were going to crush and they stunk it up. Subscribe to my podcast, bombing with Eric Andre to hear more crazy stories from me and my friends. And they stunk it up. the RR Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. It's a solo Mia episode if it could happen here. The podcast where things fall apart. And sometimes we put them back together. I would host Mia Wong and today we are going to be talking about why the rent is so high. Now, okay, there's a lot of ways that you could in theory approach this question. And I decided that I think one of the most useful approaches to it is you take a sort of,

a more sort of historical and theoretical approach. And I think the start of any kind of sort of theoretical approach to rent is by asking what rent actually is. And the answer to this, and this is something that is relatively consistent across most of sort of classical political economy. And you see this is in some sort of theoclassical economics, is that the thing that's special about rent in some sort of theoclassical economics, is that the thing that's special about rent is that rent, unlike anything else, is money that you get because you own something, not because you have produced anything. And this means that, no, the landlord does not produce anything of value at all. All they do is extract value from other sectors of the economy.

Now, this has a wide, wide variety of political and social effects. Mark saw the landowner in class as an obstacle to the development of capitalism. And this is an idea, the idea of that again, landowners specifically as a class that is different from the sort of capitalist class or the working class Henders the growth of capitalism

Is an idea that a lot of different people across the basically the entirety of the political spectrum have shared at various times and This causes some very very strange alliances particularly in places like Latin America You still have economies that are not entirely based, but economies that have enormous landowners who drive sort of vast portions of both the economy and of the sort of political process. And in Latin America, and this is true in a lot of other places, it was not uncommon for you to get what's known as developmentalism, which is an ideology based on using essentially protectionist measures, things like tariffs, sometimes capital controls, restrictions on kinds of investment that foreign companies can do. Sometimes, I mean, just straight up the nationalization of natural resources in order to develop an industrial economy.

Now, developmentalism, as are most sort of alliances against the land of the elite, are politically messy. It draws on a range of ideologies from, you know, like pretty right wing nationalists, some very, very, very scary people, are technically developmentalists, to liberal and also centrist factions whose sort of productive and social base is in a specific kind of sort of domestic capitalists,

who's interested in sort of producing stuff locally. And also to people like Bolivia's evil Morales, who is, you know, broadly considered a socialist, although I think it's commitment to anything like socialist politics is tenduous at best. But all of these sort of political groups can and do and have various times work together. This is actually one of the bases of Morales as well. I guess it's not really Morales's party anymore, but even Morales's M-A-S, which was a very sort of explicit alliance between sort of left wing social movements and then more sort of moderate centrist factions who were effectively developmentalist.

This is sort of a representation of a very common, like, kind of developmentalist politics, which is, again, this alliance between sort of left and capitalist factions who ally against like large landowners on the basis that feudalism, which is usually the way that, like, the sort of the power of large landowners is conceived conceived is an enemy to both of them. Now this isn't how states that use developmental strategies have to work. Germany for example uses a lot of developmental techniques to industrialize in the late 1800s, but the old landowner in class, the old sort of like, like, Germinaristocracy is allied with the capitalist in Germany. And the two classes, the sort of German aristocracy, the capitalist class, effectively birch.

On the other hand, land-downing classes are often implacably hostile to industrialization. And countries that essentially annihilated the land-downing classes by carrying out land reform tend to perform better economically than their counterparts who left the land-downing class intact, which contributed to the enormous success of the economies of countries like reform tend to perform better economically than their counterparts who left a lie-downing class intact, which contributed to the enormous success of the economies of countries like China, Japan, Taiwan, and Vietnam, who despite their enormous sort of ideological and political differences, all carried out land reform in the 20th century were rewarded with eventually, by very, very powerful and large scale industrial economies. But you might be saying, Mia, you've kind of put the cart in front of the horse here.

You've talked about, you've gone into some of the sort of political effects of rent first. But you haven't actually explained how rent actually works. And so that is what I'm going to do next. And to explain how rent works, I'm going to turn to an unusual source The work of the great Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando Coraniel Coraniel's a fascinating character He studied anthropology at my alma mater the University of Chicago under Terrence Turner a guy who I think 99% of people have never heard of before, but is probably most famous now

for being also, you know, also teaching David Graber and being a sort of major influence on his work. Now unlike David Graber, while, while Courineal was at the University of Chicago, he tried to get permission from the Cuban government to go do field work in Cuba. And, you know, so he gets to Cuba and he's like, to go shading with the government, the government tells him to fuck off. So, okay, he tries to go back to the US, but immigration and nationalization services, the INS, which is basically the predecessor of like immigration services

ice and the border patrol, INS was sort of dissolved in 2003 when this sort of like, I don't know exactly what the technical term for it is, but with the consolidation information of the Department of Homeland Security, which is really truly a thing that I think we tend to think it was only present, but it's actually about 20 years old and I am older than it's also, you know, this sort of outside this go. This episode is like an enormously fascist institution that centralizes an enormous amount of sort of political power in these like terrifying surveillance

and police bureaucracies. But, you know, okay, so they're back, back, back, back to the Fernandez Cornell story. So he guys to go back to the US, but I and S was depreded as cessation of all the stuff, like arrest him immediately. And they deport him and ban him from the US on the grounds that I he he was that they suspected him of being a quote subversive agent. Now and again, I cannot emphasize this enough. The sequence of events here is that he tries to go to Cuba and the Cuban government tells him to fuck off. And so he goes back to the US.

And the US government is like, oh yeah, no, this guy, the Cuban government just refuses to let to do field work. This guy is definitely a Cuban agent. So his entire sort of like life gets derailed by this. He winds up, I think back in Venezuela for a while. He, I think he, it takes like, almost like 20 years for him to be able to get back to the US

and finish his PhD. But, you know, when he does, in sort of in the process of this, he becomes a very, very famous in what respect he anthropologist. Now, when that was that you Chicago, like all the people who sort of trained corneal, that whole generation, and really like the whole sort of school of anthropology that he came from, which is a very,

very interesting school that, you know, if you if you want to like read about this kind of stuff, I read David Grabers, I, I towards an anthropological theory of value, I might do an episode on it at some point later, but all of that stuff is gone. But, but I ran into a professor who knew him back in the day and he told us that Cornel was, you know, on the one hand, very respect to the academic, like very sort of like, upstanding, like, member of the academic community. Also incredibly popular as like a partier

who just get absolutely wasted and start dancing on tables. This guy absolutely rips. Um, you know, and I think a very few people outside of anthropology have ever heard of him. But in anthropology, corneal is important enough to like, if you write about the state, you at least have to like mention him. And you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that like most of the people who say the words, the magical state, which is the name of his sort of famous book, actually have read it. But I did read this book. I read this book multiple times. And it's really, really interesting. Now, the magical state, nature, money, and majority in Venezuela is probably most famous as a history of the Venezuelan state,

but that doesn't mean that it's sort of exclusively about that history. And in fact, That doesn't mean that it's sort of exclusively about that history. And in fact, it really can't be. In order to think about the Venezuelan state, you have to think about oil. But you also can't think about oil in the way that most histories of oil think about it, which is a story about sort of like high geopolitics. If you look at history's oil, it sort of like high geopolitics, right? If you look at history's oil, right? It's about like high geopolitics and like prospecting

and like trekking oil prices over time. And you know, the sort of most famous book of this genre is Daniel Yergan's The Prize, which is a fine book, but it shares in this sort of tendency to, you know, kind of, you know, unless they're writing about like a guy going prospecting, right? There's this tendency to sort of ignore the sort of material characteristics of oil and the sort of political effects of the extraction process and a lot of other aspects of oil

that are very, very important. And what Coriniel realizes is that oil is intricately tied to sort of the political conception of nature, to systems of land ownership, and also to Venezuelan state craft. Now, this may seem a bit far afield, but in order to understand oil, you have to think about rent and rent extraction. And that's what Corineal does in ways that are both sort of profoundly interesting, and I think in a lot of ways profoundly ahead of his time. So Corineal, like us, asked the question, what actually is rent? Now Corineal goes through rent in a lot, like goes, in it like goes, goes through what you could I guess called economic history of concessions of rent, right? Starting with the classical economists. We're not that interested in the classical economists because quite frankly, if you're, I

don't know, if you're running into a neo-recardi in analysis of what rent is, like, I don't know, you're already a specialist, like stuff is, stuff is happening for youth as I quite interesting, quite odd. But we're mostly going to ignore them because the original classical economists work has, it's largely not the way people think about this now. And to the extent that people sort of claim to be derivatives of like these people like people claiming lineage, that Smith like, eh, eh, that's kind of sketchy. And so we're going to turn to corneals analysis of the way that neoclassical economics

thinks about rents. Now, corneal someone who has spent a lot of time in the sort of literature of like oil pricing, as sort of theories, as sort of price formation, and the state of the market, the fact that political actors on it, etc, etc, etc. And he argues that there's basically two ways of thinking about rent in terms of a commodity like oil. There is a macroeconomics view in which the rent someone who owns oil extracts when people have to buy it from them You know, okay, so like like if if if you're a landowner right you get rent because you own the thing and then people have to like Take it like people need it you have it so you get to extract rent from it just by virtue of sort of having it um And in in the micro economics view

In the microeconomics view, when someone pays the rent, what that is, is they're paying for what's called natural capital, or capital that's provided by nature that someone now owns through the miracle of private property. And so for these people, rent isn't something that's extracted at all. It's just someone getting paid for their capital because the way that they think about, you know, about something like oil is that they think oil is just sort of natural capital. Now, okay, it's like this is this is in some sense, you know, it's like, okay, what it, what it, what it cares about this is a kind of like this, this seems very obvious. But there's also a macroeconomic perspective, which is very different and the macroeconomic perspective holds that you know rent isn't a payment for capital at all

It's something paid to landowners by capitalists and the rent that these landowners get is basically the difference between You know what it costs you to get the oil out of the you use sort of the land you to get the oil out of the landowner to get the oil out of the ground and what it costs the person who has the highest price of production to get the oil out of the ground. Now, okay, for reasons that are very complicated that I can't get into here, basically the person who is the worst at getting oil out of the ground is the person who sets what the price of oil is. So, you know, the sort of like highest possible extraction price tends to be the price. And then, you know, the

micro, the sort of macroeconomic analysis of what rent is, right, is that it's a thing that capitalist paid to land owners, your own natural resources and the amount of money they get is based on how much cheaper it is for that landlord to get their oil out of the ground than it is for the landlord who's like the worst at this. This is a real question, right? The question is, is someone who's getting rent paid to them, is that rent payment for capital that they own, or is it money from capitalists that capitalists have to pay to a non-capitalist class? And Cornel's answer is like, well, obviously rent is extracted from surplus

value because landowners don't produce value, but there's two different sort of places that they can get this value from. And this is where we have to get into something that's kind of weird. you from. And this is where we have to get into something that's kind of weird. And that is the two different kinds of rents. But okay, before we get into the two kinds of different rents, do you know what else there's two different kinds of? Yeah, that's right. It is the products and services that support the show. And we're back. I hope you have enjoyed both of the different kinds of products and services that support the show. And okay, I promise you two kinds of rents and I'm now going to give you two kinds of rent. So the two kinds of rent, there is something called differential rent.

And differential rent is kind of close to the sort of macro, I can't believe we talked about earlier. So differential rent is rent that's set by the price of production on the market, right? Now, as we sort of mentioned, prices tend towards the highest price of production, it's set by the people who are worse than producing it. And differential rent is the rent that the rest of the market gets by costing it, by it costing less for them to extract oil than it does, you know, for someone who's like the worst at extracting oil. I...

Cornel explains this in terms of... For a long time, the US was sort of the price leader of oil, and it was the price leader of oil because the American like property rights system is so absolutely bonkers that it makes it really, really hard. You have to like individually negotiate with every person who owns a cow pasture in Nebraska in order to extract oil from them. And this makes the production process very expensive.

And so everyone else in the world is getting this differential rent because they have a less completely wild system of property. So the product of this, that everyone else is getting differential rent because it's way cheaper for them to produce oil than it is for the US to produce oil. So differential rent is a product of your efficiency, right?

It's how, it's in the amount of money that's based on sort of the price of oil and it's based on how much better, because you're selling the oil at the same price, right? But the amount that you get, you know, the amount of rent that you get is the difference between how much it costs you to get this oil out of the ground and how much it costs like some, some sort of American dips you ask us spend all this time to get us eating with like 30,000 individual landowners in the US to do it.

So that's differential rent, but there's also something called absolute rent. Now, absolute rent is very, very, very different from differential rent because absolute rent is not really determined by sort of production prices or like the market or supply and demand at all. Absolute rent is determined by the social power of the landowner. sort of production prices or like the market or supply and demand at all, absolute rent is determined by the social power of the landowner.

And this has really interesting effects, right? Because again, absolute rent isn't based on the production process and it's instead based on, you know, the social, it's a social product of power. Land, and Rentech tractors can do something that capitalists aren't supposed to be able to do. They can get profits that are larger than the general rate of profit, and they can do it just by virtue of being powerful and owning land. This has a bunch of very, very weird knock on effects, right? If you've ever seen landlords talk about rent, right?

You've seen the consequences of this. These people genuinely believe that they have a sort of moral right to returns with no risk all of the time, and that all of society should be structured in such a way as to guarantee that they have this free income that they do fucking nothing to do other than own buildings. And it should be guaranteed, you know, it should be structured to guarantee this by forcing tenants to pay rent, literally no matter what is happening. You know, like regardless of shit, like I don't know, a pandemic. Now, the other sort of important difference is that is the absolute rent does not obey the laws of supply and demand. It is a product of social power. The, you know, it's the power of land ownership itself.

And it's also sort of the power, you know, that the social power is, it's not, it's not just purely the product of leadership. It's also a product of the organization of the land owning class and the extent to which they're backed by the state, you know, it's sort of military reasons, polices. And this causes economists who are attempting to use supply and demand to explain rents to get very, very important events very wrong.

One of the things that Cornel points out is that Morris Adelman, who is a very, very famous oil economist, predicts in 1972 that the price of oil is going to collapse based on over-supply and competition. Instead, the price of oil between 1973 and 1974 increases by 400% because oil produces band-ends together to exercise their power, and this organization, known as OPEC, becomes a genuine world power.

Here's how Corridor Eol puts it. The sharp increase of 1973 and 1974 in oil prices did not result from a world shortage of oil. It was, rather, the outcome of a long historical process by which OPEC nations, acting as landowners, developed the means to extract a rent on the basis of their ownership of the oiled fields, an absolute rent, in addition to the differential rents they collected in the past. In 1973, a set of converging political and economic conditions helped establish their collective

ability to restrict the world's supply of oil. With this power, OPEC felt entitled to set market prices of oil, thus freeing the level of rent from the previous constraint of the market price. Now rent itself, absolute and differential, would come to determine the market price of oil. Now you may be asking yourself, Mia, this is all well and good for describing how the price of oil changes, but what does this have to do with me? The answer is that while Corineal is specifically focused on resource rents for obvious reasons he is doing a study of the state of Venezuela, you can apply his analysis to the kind of rent

that we all pay. If you follow Corineal's conclusions about absolute rent through to the American rental market, it produces startlingly different conclusions about the source and sort of nature of the so-called housing crisis that are traditionally presented. If rent levels are a product of the social power of the landlord class, then behavior that's otherwise inexplicable, like landlord sitting on empty properties instead of renting an amount of lower rates, suddenly become clear. Armed with the backing of the state's secure social power by carrying out evictions, and

with the state's implicit backing to carry out technically illegal evictions, landlords can extract both differential and absolute rent, allowing them to tell the market to take a hike, and setting ever-increasing rents that renters have no choice but to pay or be swept aside in brutal anti-homeless raids. This has massive consequences on any potential strategy to reduce rent. OPEC, remember, was able to use its social power to increase the price of oil by 400% even in a period where the actual supply of oil was enormous, by peer virtue of organization and the power of the land ownership. While American land load is certainly weaker unless organized in OPEC, the social power

is still such that increasing supply is not guaranteed to drive down prices because in a situation governed by the extraction of absolute rent, rent is not determined by prices, prices are determined by rent. On the other hand, this means that you can reduce rent by breaking the social power of the landlord. And indeed, even in very hot housing markets like Toronto and Los Angeles, this strategy can and has worked. Tennis unions, which deploy the power of collective bargaining and the social solidarity of renters to combat the power of landlords have succeeded in reducing rents, and can and will continue to do so. But these efforts are only the beginning of a process that finally answers the question, why are rents so high? If rents are high because of the social power of landlords, the way

to bring rents down as the crush the batters completely and expropriate them, to seize every last building and plot of land from every landlord in the country and drive them as a class from the political mainstream into the pages of history. And then, and this is crucial, not to replace them with another land-owning class or, you know, as the ledonist pretends that it actually did, replace them with the state. Only by destroying the category of landlord, not by regulating it or nationalizing it, can we finally escape the long nightmare of rents and enter a world where people's ability to live is determined not by the sort of capricious and arbitrary will of a small class of landowners, but on their human need for housing.

This has been a good happen here, you can find us in the usual places and yes, go go go into the world and make the world without rent a reality. Sacred Skando, one of best new podcasts of 2022, is back with a closer look at the darkness surrounding Megaturge La Luz del Mundo and its leader, Nasson Joaquin Garcia. They believe that he was Jesus Christ on Earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex. He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of.

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my friends. I'll have guests like Sam J. But we'll say Sloan, Michelle Butteau, Max DeMarco, DJ Doug Bound, Saturday Night Live, Sarah Sherman, and more! Listen to bombing with Eric Andre on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the IHR Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I want it's me, James, today, and I'm talking to Derm Cosgrove about Wagner, a Wagner, they, the Russian mercenary group, and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've kind of tried to pitch for several years with, with not much

success in the United States media. And I'm sure lots of other people have too, I'm by no means unique in that. And suddenly, obviously, everyone in the corporate media has become something of an expert in their actions when things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted to do here was kind of paint a picture of how they have a long record of human rights abuse and we're doing that tomorrow at Xperia in Africa. So that's what we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course. And I just wanted to give some more information. So we recorded this on last Friday today, it's Tuesday, the 1st of August.

We talked a little bit about the coup in New Jair, which has continued. Since we recorded, you've got any pregozion, who of course is the head of Wagner, the founder of Wagner, the oligarch who's in charge of that private military contracting group, and many of the statements sort of not exactly saying,

like, oh yeah, we did this coup, but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had a coup, what you could use is a group of mercenary Russians who have prepared to do incredible and horrific violence on your behalf, and let us know we'll roll up. Also since then, ECORWAS, which is the economic community of West African States,

it's a West African block there. Has threatened intervention in Niger, if they don't sort of return to a democratic process, and then Mali and Bukina Faso to other countries that have run by military governments, military moralists, hunters have said they'll stand with Niger, stand with the Niger coup. So it threatens to destabilize again

the whole region, right? You'll see lots of misinformation about this on Twitter, I've seen a ton of stuff from like, I'm just a tanky account, so you don't fully have a grasp on what's happening in this part of the world, and I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa to further your, whatever your political agenda is rather than treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living in these countries right, especially in New Share, where people are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to make ends meet. Like sanctions on this country will hurt them. Tanks on this country will hurt the poorest people in this country.

Mentally dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality of life for people and I would like to see people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument about decolonization. Like it's, that's not what's happening here. What's happening is that the powerful people have wanted more power and they've taken that at the expense of the quality of life and often the lives of other people. Obviously with with Marley and Bukina Faso saying that they would like support Niger, there's both government struggle to support themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies and other like our movement so it's you know not not a hugely serious threat,

but still very destabilizing. And again, this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which is the thing I'd like to focus on. So I'm going to start here with Dermott introducing himself and then we'll go from there. My name is Jean-Bret Klaasgrove. I'm a French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-French-. I'm a French-French foreign agent veteran. I was six years French foreign agent. Since 1996, I've worked across Africa and the Middle East and a little bit of South Asia as a security consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies, infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media.

Nice. Yeah. So I've been a journalist, been covering that field for not quite as long. But one of the things that I remember seeing in a pre-pandemic is this rise of this Russian mercenary group, Bargona Group, in Africa. They've just not an area of interest to any US publication. Generally, stories in Africa are very hard to sell, but I know that you were obviously on the ground. Looking at this, so can you maybe just start with

when you first became aware of them and what you were seeing? Well, I first became aware of them with their activities in the Central African Republic, when the Mayhem broke up there a few years ago, and the EU started sending in troops, there was quite a lot of heavy fighting. Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these Russians showed up. And it was just a little bit kind of, you know, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria,

but, you know, next thing they were in, of all places, the Central African Republic, which, you know, is a, is kind of, you know, a little bit of a backwater in the middle of Africa. It's squashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, places like that. And historically, it's been, there's always been a French presence there, but it's always been a place where there's been quite a bit of conflict around us.

Yeah, not like a consolidated, like, nation state, really. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of different people. It's not an identity that fits with identity on the ground, necessarily. So what was their role there? What were they doing as a mercenary or private military contracting group? Well, they were really operating a bit in the shadows. They had come in. Apparently, they were supposedly there to train the governments, the Republican guard of the other presidential

guard. But there was also a word to starting to leak out where they were involved in the dime mines. And they were moving all over the country, they were heavily involved in militias. Then words started coming out about, there was murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias and Wagner group operatives. And next thing this story broke where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following the activities of Wagner in Central Africa.

And I think the last thing that looked in of them was that they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There was just, they disappeared in the bush. And I suppose that was kind of the first peak that these are nasty bunch of operators. And there had been a company in Russia years ago where the Alpha Group and they had basically,

they were basically the Afghan veterans. But they operated kind operated in the shady, re-garg section of rather security in Russia itself. But Wagner Group were a completely different animal. You could tell from the right from the start, they had a different model. Yeah, very much so. Like a different model to even,

like there are various national like, I guess, like, national perspectives to private military contracting. Like, there was a time when you, like, you could sit down in a hotel bar and lots of places and after going and be assured that someone with a South African accent or someone who would claim to be from Rhodesia would, like, come and talk to you and that was their industry and they would say some racist shit. It's hard for me to not hear a South African accent and be like, oh, I don't want to have anything to do with this. But obviously, that does define everyone from South Africa by any means. But yeah, there was that.

There were a lot of Colombian people in that industry as sort of the civil war in Colombia became. But these guys are kind of different, right? Like they seem to be operating more like on behalf of governments or people who would be in government, who would like to be in government. Yeah. Yeah, explain how they do shit just differently.

Well, they seem to have taken the, well, you'll be familiar with executive outcomes, the South African mercenary organization. And executive outcomes business model was when they operated, they went to the client and said, right, okay, we'll start out your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a paycheck or a contract, kind of a great dollar sum for a contract. It was, they wanted a percentage. So they would clear, like, executive outcomes cleared out some of the diamond fields in a goaler.

And I think their going rate was something like 15%. Wagner Group seemed to have done that, taken that model, but at the same time they've rolled in a little bit of the black water type idea in Iraq, where they were operating as an arm of, you know, black water were operating as an army, you guys government. They were, you know, Paul Berbender's personal guard. And E.O.R. Wagner seemed to have combined the two along with making Hollywood movies because they've made a couple of movies. One about Central Africa and they're, you know,

these Rambo-esque kind of movies. And it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here? It's very strange. It's like I think we maybe can't divorce it from that kind of like global war on terror for one of a better phrase like era kind of cult that developed around the US special forces and there like it's why you can buy Navy SEAL soap right? Like they've tried to do a similar thing but with a private military contract. Do you know like the what's the composition of the like most like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex-military people? Is that the case with Wagner or where are they getting people from? Yeah it's

Where are they getting people from? Yeah, it's from what I've seen of the people that brought in is that you've got a core group of Russians who come from the more elite units. Now, they've been really assigned to the money making contracts in Africa. So they've operated alongside Mali and Trousse and the whole idea there is that if they do take control of zones and the Mali government is actually being a percentage of mineral, mineral extraction and whatever in the region. There's also been talk of their blatant intimidation and protection records of other Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll rock up and we look after you, ISIS or I'll quite a won't get you if you prepare as a fee, and if the company go, that's crazy then suddenly attacks start happening. But they seem to be in Africa at least, and in Libya, where they were heavily involved,

there was a core group of Russians who were there, and then surrounding them, there was kind of lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops, and then in Libya, especially during the fighting there, when they fought for half-characterial after, you had, you know, they brought in Syrians, they were not having a few other different nationalities of basically guys that gathered in other countries and offered jobs. Yeah. So I think it was about 1500, 2000 Syrians at one point, because there's these huge numbers

to Wagner kind of being bandied about on maps and stuff like that on the internet. And it's it's smoking mirrors. Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've got, you know, they bring in these almost zillaries from the like to Syria or other places that they've been in. Right, yeah. And they, another thing I guess it was unique about them

was like with, that they were obsessed with posting on telegram, like I've never seen, it'd be like just incredibly online,, to include evidence of their war crimes, which, or I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah. We should probably talk about some of those, just so people can get a sense of, I think what I'd like people to take from this, just to be explicit about it, I suppose, is that all this stuff was happening in Africa. There was no lack of evidence or people trying to say it,

and it was not paid attention to by the government or media, really, especially in the US, but also elsewhere. And then every body suddenly got sad when it happened in Ukraine, because it was happening to people who were more valued. And I think we can, we'll keep fucking up like that if we keep ignoring, especially America. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm shocked in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions, but on, because there's been two, you have an investigations into their activities. There was the murder, there were complicit in the murder or actively participated in the

murder of over 300 millions in a village only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation. They've been found to have been there, been participants in it, and there's nothing. And you're not seeing any UN sanctions, you're not seeing anything going on. The world seems to be turning a blind eye to it. In Libya, the BBC had a report, a special report where they'd actually found the eye patch of one of the Wagner operators, with tons and tons and tons of evidence, as to what they were doing, with tons and tons and tons of evidence, as to what they were doing, no more human rights abuses. And again, it's just like, yeah, that's fine. We won't really worry about it. Oops, Ukraine.

Yeah. And it's, it seems shocking to people, I think, if you're just a consumer of, you know, the New York Times or something. Wow, where did these guys come from? They're terrible, but they've been there for years, decade maybe. And because our news is very focused on certain countries and certain things, it came as a shock to people. And maybe I'll explain, like obviously, the human rights abuses began in Syria. I don't think I need to detail.

There are videos that people can find on their own time if they want to have some brutal executions and such. But could you at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've done that in Africa? I can think of three or four countries. Let's talk my head. Well, there's Valley as the answer one, there's the big one which I think was 300 civilians were murdered. They basically were rocked up in a village. I think it's Munia, it's Munia's name of the village in Mali. They rocked up with the with Mali and droops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and murder 300 people, including beheadings and whatnot. And that was there was absolutely 100% guaranteed.

There was Wagner operators did murder and behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there was an attack against a convoy, which included Wagner, the personnel, and their response was to rock into a village and execute 10 people. So that's two cases. Again, unless you're kind of aware of the certain sources that are available and looking at local journalists who are in these countries, it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life. There's Central Africa, there's been rapes, murders, there's been mass rapes, there's been executions, torture, it's just off the charts. In Mali there is actually a known, and it's becoming famous in Mali,

there is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali. And it's becoming, it's widely known as there. It's multi-national organizations, the UN, the EU all know about its presence, they all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing, there's still nothing to mean done. Yeah, and I think it's easy. I think that happened, if you remember when they were right in France, people would

be like, oh, well, like, you know, France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible. But there are other forces, like I remember someone positing that like Marley had been liberated from French control. France left, but like that these guys came, like it wasn't as if, you know, they would say, you know, a democratic transition of power or, you know, like a desirable outcome. And I think, I mean, I mean, even this morning, the with the coup in Niger, you know, there was a twilight, put up by one of the Russian Twitter accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed by Wagner, who were liberating Niger from the colonialists. It's just like, yeah.

They actually think there are, do they actually believe their own stuff? It's just amazing. Well, it's very well, I don't know, they believe it, but it seems to be very well targeted to get people to believe it online, right? Like there's this whole sort of hammer and sickle and bio community that thinks that what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denazifying. And when you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there, it's very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it. I mean, I think that's, that's, that's an education thing and an immediate thing. Yeah. But it's, I think I think people may not be aware of is the one thing that has been reported a lot is a heavy, heavy losses have taken in Ukraine, right? Often in like, they're almost piano battalions that they have. Like, um, they'll have convicts and things like that.

Can you explain, I think this might lead people to believe that they're not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for a long time, but that's not correct, right? They're still sending, I guess, operators to Africa, they're still doing their terrible shit in Africa. Yeah, there's been, even recently, there was a lot of flights being picked up, moving in and out of Africa, which were Wagner, Wagner associated aircraft. And at first it was, you know, this happened around the time that they made the move towards

back into Russia towards Putin. There was a lot of questions as to, is this a pull out of personnel to support their, what's going on in Russia, and then it stopped. And the flights started coming back in. It looks like there's been a ramp up again in a lot of African countries. So it looks like they're popping the personnel. Now, whether it's they've, they've caught some kind of deal where they're now just going to be a money maker.

I'm not quite sure, but that will be remained to be seen. If they have orchestras in Niger, which is possible, then it's clearly a ramp up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up local populations because they whipped up anti-french sentiment in both Mali and in Brookings of Assault. And even though the French did, the French did on a carry of drone strikes, which did kill civilians and stuff, but the massive re-action to these incidents was definitely by Wagner at the time. It is a very lucrative, almost informal empire for Russia, right? It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people

and often in ways that are not that distinct from the colonialism that we saw, you know, 150, 200 years ago, and with real, like, detailed brutal human rights abuses and all to distract wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way to what we've seen before. But in a less formal way, I guess, then with French and British colonialism. Yeah, it's very much a corporate empire, as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way. And the money is flowing into the pockets of the you know the oligarchs and stuff in in Russia. I mean the There was a I was in a bit of a discussion this morning

About about Niger and so I met a comment about there being oh, there's not the if you look at them the Sahel map and the mineral world that oh There's there's more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction for the south into the Congo but the thing is in and I've worked in Mauritania you know you have Mauritania which is three times the size of France with a population of four million and yet one percent of the country has actually been surveyed for its mineral wealth. And it already has massive gold iron ore deposits and copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold ore deposits, which are under-explored.

It's relatively the vast majority, it would be artisanal mining, the same with Mali. And if you go across into Niger, you've got the huge uranium mine, which is a key zone of the French nuclear industry, Ireland, which would be worth the fortune to whoever would control the territory. So it's a very colonialist, I suppose, manual to what Wagner are doing, but it's very much a corporate model, as opposed to coming in and establishing governance. They're quite happy to leave administration and governments and stuff like that to go up, but they want the mineral wealth. And they will manipulate and embed themselves with the local military. Who, you know, if you've got Mali, it's governed now by a military, military junta. Niger is likely to be the same. And you have broken off us, so it's not

quite far off that either. So if you don't in these countries, if you don't have the backing of the military, you've got nothing, you're not going to be in power. So yeah, and if they control the military, and then they control his power, right? And as long as that's a meaningful legacy to the desire to extract wealth and they don't care. And yeah, and the other part of it is they're bringing in all the toys for these governments as well.

They're importing drones, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know. Yeah, let's talk about it a little bit, because that's something they seem to have. Eric Prince tried to get himself a plane, right, and he didn't really do very well. But their access to battery hardware is unprecedented. So, where are they able to obtain all that? Oh, they're definitely...

They're definitely in collusion with... I mean, whatever tensions there are in Ukraine between the Russian military and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the Russian military when it comes to securing hardware for Africa. Yeah. I mean, there was brand new MI-24s unloaded in Mali only last year. And they made a very, very big show of the French leaving and the Italian Co-opters arriving.

So, you know, there's been Turkish-built drones are starting to are coming in, left, right, and center across all with the aid and shipment by Wagner. So they have incredible, with Russian-produced equipment, they have incredible access to it and it can only come from one place,

it can only come from the military. And, you know, we've seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that are 50 years old because there's nothing on their basis. Well, it's very clear that there's nothing on their basis because these weapons are being transported for use in Africa. Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right? They're still selling planes, they're still selling munitions there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, it's almost like a, I don't know, there's like a corporate and a state structure. And sometimes it seems like, especially, well, we see them in the US too, I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires. They're parallel. One doesn't have sort of oversight of any other. One thing I do want to get into is this culture that exists was invagna that is it an extreme glorification of violence right and a glorification of sometimes of Nazism yeah of other sort of related kind of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies and you can see a lot in the

telegram can you speak a little bit to that yeah Yeah, it's been, there's definitely been an element of these guys have been recruited from right wing in the Russian military and we already know there was some of these units were heavily involved with the Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anywhere. And you know, we've seen a crowd like it's been hugely in evidence across some of the some of the set towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner have left graffiti of, you know, the the Sondran and a lot of these other, you know, Nazi symbols. And there is this whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I mean, the executions, beatings, the torture of local non-white people in the, you know, that they're coming, you know, coming contact, but we've seen it in Syria, and brutal executions. It's a very much of quite supremacist far right.

It's not even undertones because it's so blatant. It's right in your face. I mean, they just don't hide it under telegram channels. They don't hide it where they go. We've seen military patches that they're wearing but you know, extreme right, graffiti they leave behind, which is extreme right. You know, even I haven't seen the, they leave behind, which is extreme right. Even I haven't seen the movies they've met, but I believe they're actually there's a lot of image there

as well, which would be right up the street of neo-fascist organizations as well. Yeah, it certainly seems to be pretty explicit about it and no one's, they don't care. I mean, Yeah, it certainly seemed to be pretty explicit about it and no one's they don't care. I mean, for Gorsh, you're supposed to be called it Vagnec because it was Hitler's favorite composer, right? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, there's, um, like some of the, there's crossover between some of the other, um, Russian, far right, or organizations, uh, and some of these units, these far right organizations, and some of these UNIT, these far right units who are being new in Ukraine and Wagner. There is a crime of cross-pollination personnel as well. Yeah, certainly seems. They sort of go back and forth with the military. I think

people would say there's more of a distinct entity than it perhaps is. Yeah, they're not a... there's guys from Prague who are with other organizations from time to time, but then they seem to kind of drift back to Prague. And seeing that especially in Ukraine, in Sardiswell and Libya, there was guys that identified who were operating in with Wagner in Libya, who definitely had operated with other organizations as well. I think there was a number of them had been photographed, that had actually been ideed during some of the football violence in Marseille European and couple of few years ago. So, you know, they're in this circle and they are moving over and back between different organizations, but again, it's a massive try right, actually. Yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of the sort

of armed extreme right. Yeah. It's been, yeah, sort of festering in Earth for a long time, unnoticed by a lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah. You've mentioned, like, if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things, which I think is right, because it's not, you know, it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where would you, like, Where would you go for coverage, especially, let's say, parts of Africa where you're working? I would use Twitter quite a lot

to look at what local journalists are doing in places like Mali and Niger. I think I started off using Twitter in Yemen when I was working there, because I was 50 kilometers from a town that was entirely controlled by Al Qaeda, and one of them was on Twitter, that they were all posting on Twitter.

And there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on Twitter as well. So you got to see in almost real time what was happening in these places. And when there was no other media, really. And I carried on using Twitter and then because I do write security report, digging around and you had, there's a couple

of online analysts and also people who are on, who cover kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite a lot in the Sahel. Okay. Yeah. So you would have like the likes of War and War and people like that were very good on the other side of things. Yeah, he's very good at keeps an eye on Myanmar as well. Yeah. Yeah. There's a few useful accounts. I think you do share them when you're on account sometimes as well. I've seen.

I do, yeah, from time to time. I'll share them on my own. Yeah, what is yours if people want to follow along? See, pitch to your feet. It's it's a dermost and cosgrove on. see bitch to your feet. It's it's a Dermot and Cosgrove on All right, so D your emoji and then Cosgrove COS Euro be Yeah, wonder it is one of those things that like we talk about you know Like in many ways you what people spend too much time on Twitter and I know that you know when it dies It'll be nice, but like it is something I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago.

But I remember going to Rwanda, one of the things that they asked you, it's, are you verified on Twitter? This was before you could buy a verification for $7 or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives them sort of, like, especially in places with a government with hostile to journalism, it gives them an outside audience that will one hopes, you know, make them a little bit safer, and also to be able to share these things.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And losing that, like, there's no other platform that does that. No, there isn't. And it's a pity that it's actually gone down the road, it's gone down. I mean, I would be, I work a month on, month off, so I would be a big Twitter user when I'm at work because, you know, gathering information from my reports and stuff. And then, at home,

I'm not on it so much. But, you know, for local journalists and activists, it's a fantastic, the whole idea is fantastic because they are able to get that message out. They are more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes, and it keeps an eye on them. The more visibility they have, it wouldn't be 100% safe, but they are a little bit safer. Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in Myanmar as well, just sort of, it did certainly out to the world, the Irawadi and all these other publications, which are able to get things out. And lots of those people are in hiding, they can't operate in cities,

and they're able to get things out to the world. So like for that alone, it's valuable. And yet it's a shame that it seems to be going the way it's going. Yeah, I think there was even during the, well, even currently, there's still some, still some people in Afghanistan who are, it's their only outlet to get information notable. What's happening under the Taliban regime? Yeah. Yeah. I've touched with a few people in Afghanistan here that it's, you know, it would

all be lost. I wouldn't have ever found them otherwise. Well, some of them know through friends. Yeah. And I want to finish up by asking like the stuff that V that Wagner has done in Africa is repulsive. The stuff that he's done is serious, disgusting. What, if you had your way, how can people or how can governments, what can we do to stop this kind of human rights abuse?

I think there's this much pressure that can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and senators that if people go to the mayor in the UK, the government, I'm Irish, we have a long history of peacekeeping and stuff like that and investigations of human rights abuses. So, it's putting pressure on your politicians. That action needs to be taken. And the UN, I'm not a massive fan of the UN because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean, my brother was in Lebanon on three separate occasions with the Unifil force and came home and described to us one clapping, because they even hamstrung

their own people. But there isn't outside of the EU, which can enforce sanctions on them. There needs to be massive sanctions on anyone associated with Wagner. Yeah. And there needs to be more, I mean, the EU has pretty much been kicked out of the Sahel.

There needs to be more, a better relationship built up with these, with these organics, these governments. As opposed to some of these governments are, there is no real other choice. But there has to be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If you know journalists, get to journalists. Ask them, why aren't these questions being asked? Is this, you know, why is it only being the focus? And I'm not a big supporter of Ukraine,

but why is it only since Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions? Yeah. You know, they've been murdering people. They were putting, you know, they were bookbubing, trapping kids toys in Lithuania. They were treated out of, uh, out of, uh, Western Libya. Yeah. None of that appeared. You know, the, the one BBC report kind of came out and it died afterwards, which, you know, is, you know, horrendous. You know, this needs to

be, they need to be hammered left, right, and center. Yeah, and I think a lot of that comes from, if you find editors, you can ask them why they haven't covered this, but it was happening in Africa. They were putting human beings in holes in the ground. Yeah, I mean, if you're on Twitter, jump on Twitter, follow the, follow the editors' news organizations, and tweet at them, and Twitter. And just why are you covering this? Yeah, make them say or people explain why this doesn't matter. It's not just saying with your politicians.

I kind of sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but like I can't put sanctions on them, you know, and I can't. I don't have the ability to project force. Yeah. And I don't, there's nothing that Wagner produced that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going to buy this product because it impacts Wagner. They don't care. They're not selling to the consumer.

They're stealing to put in their own pockets. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think that was wonderful, David. Is there anything you want to else you want to plug or anywhere else people can find you learn more about the stuff? Well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best base. I have promised myself to do a little bit more on the highlighting the conflict in because I work in North Africa and even

I'm not in the Sahel itself. The Sahel has been, it's always been a massive area of interest for me. So I probably will kind of flip my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's going on in across the Sahel. Yeah, yeah. I'm on there. I've got an Instagram account, but that's only really if you like pictures of dogs. Yeah, that's what it's good for. Yeah, well thank you very much for your time, David. We appreciate it. And yeah, I have a few people to learn a bit more about this. So good. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yes, this is what I sound like today. This is Shereen. Just go with it. If you listen to the sheep episode, I sounded much worse. So this is, I sound great today, I am out. But yeah, thank you for listening today. I'm excited to talk about what I want to talk about for the next two days because it's something that I've always wanted to kind of just like open up as more of a conversation. And I'm so grateful to have author and amazing person.

They've just written a book called To the Ghosts Who Are Still Living. And it's out now. You can go get it. Ami, Y-Trop, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you too.

There's a particular reason why I asked you to come on the show. I specifically wanted to talk to a Jewish anti-Zionist. I want to approach the conversation as if people are really unfamiliar with Zionism, because I think most people are, can you maybe just start by telling me like, what is Zionism? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I said to Shireen before as well, like I am not particularly like an expert on Zionism

or Israel Palestine. So also just want to recommend that listeners also go out and find the experts, find the materials that you're interested in if this conversation sparks your interest. Yeah. And take my thoughts as just one thought find the materials that you're interested in if this conversation sparks your interest. And take my thoughts as just one thought and the mix of all the thoughts. So yeah, when I was thinking about defining Zionism, I was thinking about sort of like the origins of Zionism and like how did we even get to that place?

Yeah. And Zionism for me reflects, and I think, is this political desire to have a Jewish state, and to have that Jewish state on the land of Israel is how Zionism has materialized in its formation. And prior to the actual political movement of Zionism, there has been a connection of the Jewish people to that specific land. It just hadn't materialized into an actual movement to establish a state on that land.

So there's been, there's been like a yearning and like a memory and like a collective sense of connection to like Jerusalem to that piece of land. But it was only in the 1800s when there was nation state building occurring in general in Europe, specifically, in Eastern Europe, that the movement for Zionism started to develop in the form that we have today. And a lot of that was because Wunners and Jews were saying, oh, wow, like German people are creating a state or French people are creating a state. Like we are people, we should have a state and at the same time Jews were also being excluded

from citizenship in a lot of the actual like newly formed countries that they were living in. So there was like this dispossession also from place where they were and matched with a general rise of anti-semitism as well. So I think all of those things kind of crystallized into creating a actual political movement around that kind of nascent, like more religious spiritual yearning. And then that formed into like many different types of Zionism, like more militaristic Zionism, more socialist Zionism, religious Zionism, etc. And that's all kind of, yeah, make its way to become Israel.

of yeah, make its way to become Israel. Yeah, how would you differentiate all of those like the cultural versus religious versus political like how would you personally differentiate them? I know you're not an expert, but just like speaking of experience. Yeah, to think of it. It's complicated, I would say. Because it feels like to me, from just reading about the history of Zionism, Because it feels like to me, from just reading about the history of Zionism, it did kind of start in a religious origin, but it became more political. Is that by reading that right? Or yeah. Yeah, I think like, yeah, that's what can be pretty confusing. I think about understanding, like, Zionism in general is just like, where did this even

come from? Like, how did these like, especially Zionism like originating more from like Ashkenazi, like European Jews. Yeah. How did this even come to be and seeing as something that like the longing and the connection to the land being part of Jewish culture and religion, but that only turning into a desire for a nation state like at that certain moment.

Yeah. So the different categories of religious Zionism versus political versus militaristic versus socialist were kind of like the ways that Zionism was, there was like different movements of Zionism in Europe and Eastern Europe at the time of its origins. So it's kind of like referring to more of its historical relationship. And then that still influences the politics today in contemporary, like I'll just say state of Israel and also many like Israel Palestine, but speaking about Zionism that feels more relevant.

So you still have like socialist Zionists who are more on the left than you have like more like right wing religious Zionists who have probably have more historical origins in like more militaristic Zionism. And religious Zionists who maybe are, we are here for the religious reasons of being Jews on this land versus like a socialist scientist. Like their framework was more like, we wanna create this more socialist utopia sort of vision versus like more political, but it's our sixth scientist. Their original vision was like,

we want to dominate this land and have political power. Yeah, it feels like in recent times it's kind of leaned more in that direction only because of the, I don't know, the state of the world. But when you look up Zionism, it's defined, I'm just going to read what I found and please attract me if you're like actually, no. When you look up Zionism as it was defined as an organized nationalist movement, generally considered to have been founded by Theodore Kursl in 1897. However, the history of Zionism began earlier and is intertwined with the Jewish history and Judaism as a whole. The organizations of, I'm going to probably misfrute out to this, but

a whole. The organizations of, I'm going to probably just for it out to this, but Hoverve Zion, the lovers of Zion, how you sound, how Hoverve Zion, yeah. This organization was held as like the four runner of the modern Zionist ideals, and they were responsible for 20 Jewish towns in Palestine between 1870 and 1897. This is from just online history. And at the core of the Zionist ideology was this traditional aspiration for a Jewish national home through the reestablishment of Jewish sovereignty in Palestine. And this was to be facilitated by the Jewish diaspora.

Herzo apparently sought an independent Jewish state, usually defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority population. And he wrote a 1896 pamphlet to describe exactly what he wanted. to describe exactly what he wanted. And though he did not live to witness it, Israel was established. And so what he wanted did come to fruition, even though in my opinion it was not done in a just way. But that's history for you. But yeah, I think the actual core of it is really understandable and true.

You know, of course, every marginalized community wants a safe haven and a place where they can all go to, I think my biggest, what I really dislike about what it is now, where is I in them is now, is just how much it erases everyone else that's already there. It's almost as if Palestine was like an empty field. And I think a lot of Zionists today kind of erase that history and erase that like they massacred hundreds of people and they displaced over 750,000 people. It's called the Neck Buds, called a catastrophe. That's a Palestinian's refer to it as.

And I feel like Zionists tend to not, I mean, from what I understand, it's as if that isn't like real history. And from what I've read or like from what I've heard from people that have grown up in Israel, the history that they learned is also a little bit selective in what they learn. But yeah, that's, I've just been reading a lot about Zionism for a long time. But it's nice to have someone actually like, with experience in it because I can only

learn so much from the internet and from second hand stuff. I feel like that, like, when we look at the early Zionist and it's like, oh yeah, these desires to have sovereignty and have autonomy and agency for your people who are being marginalized in your country, like, are in these lands that they live, reasonable, that totally makes sense.

And that it has to, like you said, be also seen through the lens of the actual history that occurred, which is materially trying to build a nation-state as part of your people's liberation is going to involve lots of oppression and violence. And that's kind of where I ended up understanding the history of Zionism, being able to have empathy for that original message, and then just really being like that's what led me into like anarchism ultimately was saying that this desire for a nation state to be like a

liberatory project is kind of always going to be flawed in a way. So actually like I kind of said like you know Jewish like agencies, sovereignty and liberation, we actually deserve better than that. We deserve to not actually be like hell within the confines of what is possible in a nation state, as I think all people to serve. Yeah, totally.

So that's kind of how I've come to this point now. No, and I really want to talk to you more about how you've landed where you are with your beliefs. But yeah, I think what also gets forgotten is that pre-1948, there were Jewish people in Palestine, and Christian people. Everyone got along. Yeah.

I'm from Syria, but even in Syria, everyone, in most Middle Eastern countries, there was a mix of all these religions and they all got along. And I think that's what really angers me when it comes to basically the news saying it's this ancient religious conflict because that's just simply not true.

And I think that's a huge defense that a lot of milit militant Zionists have or it's like this eternal, cultural religious war, and it simply just falls. I think that's something that always bothers me. I just wanna give a little bit more history just to bring us to like current day, just I think this stuff is a little bit interesting. So in 1975 the UN General Assembly they passed

resolution 3379 which designated Zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. However, this resolution was repealed in 1991 by replacing resolution 3379 with resolution 46 slash 86. And this new resolution, it was adopted on December 16, 1991. It revoked the determination in the previous resolution 3379, determining Zionism as racist. And Israel had made this revocation of this resolution a condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference, which was a conference that was held at the end of 1991. And it was also

raised under pressure of the administration of President Bush, Papa. I just find that funny. No, HW Bush, I'm sorry, this is not funny stuff, I just, this is how I cope. But, basically, the Revocation was simply this one sentence. The General Assembly decides to revoke that a germination contained in its resolution 3379 of 10th of December, 1975. And this motion was supported by 111 nations, including the 90 nations who had sponsored it in the first place. And it was opposed by 25 nations and abstained by 13 nations. And I just thought that was incredibly fascinating. It also just like illustrates the power that Israel has always kind of like held, like as far as like a political state in like world affairs. And if you've listened

to my previous episodes, then you know that at the current state in time, and like for decades leading up to this, the government is real is extremely far right and Zionist to the point where it's extremely racist. And they've built in a partite state based around the Zionism. Basically, Zionist values serve as the ideological foundation of Israel. I think that's kind of a big part of why Israel was created in the first place was this hope for a place where everyone was safe. Obviously, they kind of became twisted and they went about it in a terrible way. But I do understand what you mean also by having empathy for the original feeling of it because I feel the same. I think every marginalized community wants what the

original idea of Zionism had. I think Zionist today is defined so differently, and I think that's really unfortunate because it didn't have to become a racist ideology, but it did. I've been rambling too much and we're going to take our first break. But we come back. I want to talk to you about you. So, BRB. And we're back. Take it away. You yet have a response for the thing I said about how Zionist values they serve as the ideological foundation of Israel? Yeah, and I think one of the things that I try to make a point of kind of as like a Jewish anarchist, specifically like what I was saying prior is that that's again like kind of just the

inevitable, well in my mind, the inevitable outcome of like a state is that there is going to be some amount of like division of population, like oppression of a certain class of people or certain group of people, a consolidation of power in the hands of a few. So again, for me, that's where this, like the original idea of like, let's have a place where Jews can have safety and sovereignty

and cultural like flourishing, like attaching that to a state was like kind of always bound to fail, but not inherent, like not exactly like you say, like not necessarily because that desire is a wrong desire. Yeah. And then when we pile in kind of like other people's interests in terms of the West having an interest and having Israel being a friendly, I consider a proxy state for the West in the Middle East, where they can you know like we've seen like send their police officers to be trained in these ways but also the West is benefiting from

that exchange. They have a little hold in the Middle East like they always want it to. Exactly. So their interest is to like maintain Israel like as something that they can have influence in and have this kind of control over. And to make it creepier, the Christian evangelical Zionism, Christian Zionism is also a huge influence in the US. There was just a really interesting documentary, I can't remember the name now, that that was released a year or two ago about this. And Christian Zionist actually make up like a larger lobbying body than Jewish Zionists in the US just because- That's so backwards. Because there's just so many more evangelicals and their interest in the state of Israel is that Jews will return there and then the

rapture will happen. Yeah, I actually want to talk to you about this because I 100% think you know more about this than I do because I do. I have heard that there are a lot of evangelical Christians that are huge supporters of Zionism. One, can you speak to like, if you know how that even, like where that, I don't know, not solid, I guess like solidarity with Zionism came about. And also what they believe, like the whole rapture thing, please, I would love to know more. Yeah, like I had, I remember people like,

watch whatever this documentary is. You just Google Christian Zionism because I've mostly learned from that and from my own, like internet wormholes. I've just looked it up and I think it's till Kingdom come 2020 film, right? Yeah, cool. And so what I understand is there is this like somewhere in the Christian world, but like it has roots at least in the Christian world that like it has roots at least in the evangelical world right now. This idea in the rapture, which I don't know that much

about, but apparently the rapture will involve Jews returning to the land of Israel and Jesus returning and killing all of the Jews. Oh my god. Yeah. That's why they support Zionism. That is why they support Zionism. So they want. That's fucked up. Yeah. So they want Jews to go back to the land, the state of Israel, in order for them to ultimately

like be killed and go to hell. Be all in one place and be conveniently killed. Yeah. And so that is one of the major lobbying arms. Like when we're talking about like the US, like sending money to, um, to Israel and like I just saw recently like, like most of the Republicans are like supporting, um, this, yeah, the aid going to Israel. And it's like, why are they doing that?

When generally they don't really support Jews, you know? Like Republicans are not like BFFs with Jews. No, they don't really, I mean, inherently that way of seeing Zionism is what 100% racist. Like it's like people are, or not, not even just that anti-Semitic, you know, anti-Semitic, yeah. That's the really the defense a lot of the time when you have like a Palestinian politician talk about

Israel or anything, not even Zionism, Asia-Menton Israel and they could get labeled a Tessimetic, but that is 100% anti-Semitic. Just why? Anti-Semitic. Like that is, well. And it's like, it doesn't get noticed because like I feel like so much that white Christians do in this

country just gets very overlooked as something that actually has something that's actually worth noticing and something that's actually worth critiquing. So I am trying to understand how did we get to this place? How did we get to this point where Israel is being supported in doing what it is doing right now to Palestinians. It has moved, in my opinion, so far away from an actual vision of Jewish liberation. And then you look at who's actually really supporting this project right now. And it's people who actually just want us to die Mm-hmm. It becomes very convoluted and

I'd again motivates my anti-sianism in a lot of ways too. Yeah, can you tell me as little and as many details as you want But how did you come to identify as anti-sianist? How did you become how how did you embrace that definition for yourself? I guess there's a lot of aspects to that answer. One thing is I do really care about Jewish people being safe and Jewish people having our culture. Jewish people be able to express our culture and be able to express who we are. And I think being two or three generations

from the Holocaust and just feeling like the intensity of that loss of life and land and place has just given me that feeling of like, this is really important. And then also like living out of time right now in the US where like anti-Semitism is violent and I've experienced that violence and it is like a threat to like my sense of safety and my ability to express my culture. I've just been like very obsessed with like what does actually achieving those goals look like. And when I look at the state of Israel and I see

all 18 year olds are conscripted into the army, which is like literally like my great-grandfather left Russia because he didn't want to be conscripted into the Russian army and a lot of Jews, I'll show you how he Jews in the US like have that story. Like that's not liberation. When I see that like a lot of Jews in Israel have the choice of either being very secular or being extremely religious, when even a lot of more diverse Jewish cultures have been assimilated into this one model of the culture. Languages have been lost, like practices have been lost. That's not our culture being able to flourish.

And also, the violence done to Palestinians, like in the name of the state, the name of this liberation, like nothing, nothing is worth that violence ever. So all of those things have kind of coalesced into my Jewish innercism, of also analyzing that through the state apparatus itself and being like, oh yeah, states, we'll do this. We need to think more creatively. We need to think in a way that builds actual solidarity between Jewish community and Palestinian community and other marginalized people. And all of that has kind of just coalesced into, yeah, Jewish anti-Zionism, like just making sense

on all of those levels. Yeah. No, I thank you for saying all of that. It's true. I think nothing is worth all that violence. And also, I think, unfortunately, like when you have any kind of desire, no matter how pure it is, because I think the basis of Zionism has a pure desire of safety and sovereignty. But when you have a desire and you add politics to it or you add, I don't know, any kind of like country war, anything, when you add like modern day limitations and structures, that's when it becomes something else that devolves into something that it really shouldn't be. I think what disturbs me the most is how many young people are rallying in the streets,

a lot of far-right groups in Israel will be death to all Arabs, or they'll say the most heinous things, as well as do the most heinous things. But I think, it's unfortunate because I think even they kind of lost what Zionism was supposed to be about. It's also supposed to be about being only there just you and killing everybody else or seeing someone else as second citizens or anything. But no, I, yeah, thank you for saying all that.

The Army thing is a really good thing to bring up as well, just because Palestine has no Army. So it's a little bit silly to demand everyone even join the Army for this fake imaginary bad guy. Not that there is not, there is definitely terrorists like activity on both sides, I would say. But the vast majority is like this imaginary big bad wolf that does not exist and is like powered by us and Western media. Totally. And that's where I start to think like, I don't know if this is like conspiracy or

this real, but I start to think like, who is this actually serving? You is it serving to literally put young people into a war, in every generation that comes through this country? Is it mostly serving US and other Western interests to be able to have that land be their proxy state? I don't have enough research to back that claim up in a way that I would like to. That's like my next research wormhole is to try and yeah, just understand that dynamic because I think something else that I have a lot of questions about too. And the formation of the state of Israel is like, yeah, understanding that England did, or I don't know, creeper in England, I think England, they were the ones who partitioned that land and they were the ones who ultimately signed it over.

Yeah, the British are responsible for 99% of the atrocities of the world. No, no thank you. And sometimes like forgetting that part of the story kind of almost like contributes to this kind of like anti-Semitic rhetoric of like all the Jews are this like all powerful people who were just able to conquer this land on their own. It's like a conspiracy theory fuel. Yeah, when it's like no like actually like the Jews at that time did not have like global power in that way. Like England, Britain was like, here you go, here's this land in the same way that they did, like so much of the other colonized places in that world, in the world. Yeah, I mean, the British are responsible for every bad thing. And like for me, like that

bigger lens feels harder to talk about sometimes because I also like am also holding that like Jewish American support for the state of Israel, like fuels also the atrocities happening against Palestinians. Jewish support for the IDF in Israel, etc. Obviously, they are responsible. I worry that if we don't look at these broader influences that we're not actually going to understand how to systemically stop this. Yeah, you have to understand how you got somewhere to like determine How to get out of where you are. Right. Totally. Yeah Not to be too morbid or like to make this connection, but like Britain doing that

It's almost what the evangelical Christians want to do, right? Yeah, exactly. Oh, you guys stay here. Let's just shove them on this place that we don't really care about. And here you go. Like, it doesn't even feel like genuine support. You know what I mean? Like, I think in an alternate universe, Jewish people were welcomed into nations. And Britain was like opening their doors to immigrants. I think that is a much more kind notion in my opinion.

But what I do understand the desire to do otherwise, but it is interesting to connect those two. Now that we've talked about both of them and how similar that is. And on that too, like the most disturbing thing. But I figured out in a live in relation to this origin history of Zionism. So like in the beginning of like the Nazi power in Germany

in Germany specifically before they wanted to like kill the Jews, they just wanted the Jews to leave. So they were like, go, just go. And I saw this, I was in Berlin last summer and I saw this picture of Nazis creating travel agencies in the right word, but like a travel depot that was specifically said, like go to Palestine.

Oh, interesting. And it was like directing Jews to go to Palestine. Oh, interesting. And was like directing Jews to go to Palestine. So like in that context, like the state of Israel, then has like a totally different like frame of the... Like the origin story almost? Yeah, of being the place where like the world could send their Jews. Yeah. When they didn't want them in their home countries.

And for me, that's also a place that I've really fixated on is like, well, wait, you can't just say you're in solidarity with Jews because you created this country. And we all have to go there. You actually have to stop being antisemitic. You know, you actually have to. You should work on that first. Yeah, let us like live in your countries and be safe.

And it really is back to the evangelicals too, right? It's like they're all about like being Christian Zionist and like spreading Israel, but they're also like very anti-Semitic in this country. So it's like, it feels like a similar sort of dynamic of like, yeah, yeah, we support you because we want you to go there. We want you to leave this country and go there and we're not going to actually make it better for you in the place where you want to be, which is your family's home here, you know. So that's another frame that I've been working in,

which makes me just kind of have a bigger question of global responsibility for what's happening in Israel, Palestine right now, and how does this global resistance to actually addressing anti-Semitism play into the continued violence against Palestinians? Yeah, and just to be clear, being an anti-zionist is not anti-semitic. However, it is important to remember that just because someone is an anti-zionist doesn't mean they're not anti-Semitic. It's an important reminder for those engaging and anti-zionist organizing to also be doing work around anti-semitism,

both internally and the world at large, because both solidarity with Palestinians, as well as ensuring that we're interrogating the anti-semitism in our lives, and the world is vitally important in this moment. No, I was trying to divide these two episodes up. You already know this, I've told you, but just for the audience, like I wanted to do this first episode to be a little bit more about the history and about how we got here.

And tomorrow's episode you'll hear about what I really want to talk to you about. It's like you're working ancestral healing and how that's a huge part of your work and also the community that you've built in certain organizations. I think that is so critical when it comes to anti-zionism or having solidarity of Palestinians

because that's what you need to even make change happen, right? So on that note, I'm going to wrap it up here for now. Ami, can you plug, like if people want to know more about you and your work where they can find you? Yeah, so, again, I'm Ami Y. Job, and I just came out with this book to the ghosts who are still living. You can buy it through my publisher, Strangers, and a Tangle of Wilderness, or you can also look up my website, amiwantra.com, and the book touches on not Zionism specifically, the kind of themes of place and land and where do you choose belong in the world? Yeah, and their website also has a list of their other works, which I highly recommend you seek out.

I think voices like Amoe's, armies like yours are really important when it comes to talking about, I don't know, changing the world for the better in general, not even about anti-sianism, but like even just trying to assess something in a more critical way, in a more personal way, even thinking about it being ancestral healing, I think is so critical. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. I'll talk to you tomorrow for you guys. I'll, I'm gonna keep talking to them right now for me.

But yeah, tune in tomorrow for a continuation of this lovely conversation. Bye. Bye! Nasson Joaquin Garcia. They believe that he was Jesus Christ on Earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex. He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of. For three generations, the use of the world had an incredible control on his community, that began in Mexico and then grew across the United States, until one day. A day of reckoning for the man whose millions of followers called him the United States. Until one day, a day of reckoning for the man

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There are certain murders I'm scared to discuss. In the 1980s, we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. One after another, after another, for a decade. We weren't safe anywhere. We're teenagers terrified to leave our own homes. Would we be next? Who is killing all the kids? And why?

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Yes, I still sound like this. It was the same day for me. But thank you for joining me again. Today is part two of a conversation I'm having with Ami Wyntrop about anti-zionism and why it's important. And today I want to talk about their work and how much of anti-zionism is actually based in ancestral healing. And yeah, I want to just tell you guys a bunch of good stuff because Ami's work I think is really important. So welcome back.

Hi, thanks for having me. Hello, of course. I think when we first started talking about wanting to record together, you mentioned that talking about ancestral healing was really integral and even your definition of anti-zionism. Can you kind of explain why? Sure. Yeah, I feel like maybe it's also the other way around. Like my coming into anti-zionism led me

into a path of ancestral healing. Because I think something that we talked about in the last episode is that a lot of the motivation for at least like the early origins of Zionism was desire for safety and the desire to like have cultural expression, like Jewish cultural expression would be possible. And so I started to think like why were those the desires of the time and sort of moving back into my families history which so much of it has been like silence because of like the pain of the history and also in some ways because you've been told you know like you have a place you have the home you live in now, and you have the state of Israel, and you don't have to think about where you came from,

you know. And so a lot of my work has been kind of like opening up that conversation of, like, the way where do big grandparents like actually come from? Like, what was that place? Why do they leave? What is the longing that we have for safety? A lot of them we have for home. And what does it look like to actually turn that longing back to yeah for my family like our homes in Eastern Europe. And that's kind of where I've been

positioning a lot of my work these days. Yeah, I think you bring up a good point about how even having Israel there almost erases like the history of a lot of Jewish people, right? Because it kind of just like, yeah, it's almost as if like, oh, this is where we all come from and this is where we all end up. And it's just simply not true. Can you tell me, well, first, can you define ancestral healing to me and like what that means to you? I feel like for me, ancestral healing has been the process of opening up to the voices of my ancestors and allowing them to really speak to me and starting to see that like the

pain and the grief and yeah, just the sorrow that I was carrying in my own body wasn't just my own. And that sort of growing awareness has become like the avenue to which I can do ancestral healing, which sometimes looks like learning a time about like a specific Jewish practice that perhaps someone in my family at some point did and we've now forgotten or sometimes it looks like researching on Wikipedia like the flowers that grew in my family's like shuttle and you start you're up and sometimes it looks like And sometimes it looks like just crying and being sad about the things that we've lost. And sometimes it looks like talking to my ancestors, like in meditation or trans states

and offering them back the healing that I'm doing in this generation. Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers, I'm doing in this generation. Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers I think really got me. Just like those little details are so important and really define a place. I mean, I think it's estral healing is so important for like most people in general. I think it's kind of taken,

maybe not taken too seriously by some normies, I don't know, but even for me, I mean, our histories are very different, but I think what you said about recognizing that your pain is not just your own, like you're carrying a lot of a burden generation from generation to generation, and I think acknowledging that and learning more about yourself, anyone can do that. It doesn't have to be a certain, I don't know. I think that's what I always kind of want to get across

that like even for me, I found ancestral healing to be really important. I define it in a different way, but it's still, I don't know a lot about my family's history. So that's been a little bit like a huge origin of that, is because there's a lot of confusion there. But I love that you are taking as like an internal journey and also like recognizing that there's a connection there.

I think people don't look at it as much as I want them to, I guess, I think it's a little bit too petty for people and it really isn't. It's just about like evolving and knowing yourself better. What really comes down to it? Totally. Yeah, and for me too. So in my book, I talk a lot about

like birch trees and the flowers that grow in this places of my ancestors were in the lakes and the frogs. And the big reason for that too is because my ancestors aren't there anymore. There are no more Jewish people in those places necessarily to tell the story. So when I think about how do I really learn about who my ancestors were or what their practices and their culture was, it's like, oh, at least I can see what they saw. You know, I can see the trees, I can see the frogs and the land is holding that story for me if I can just open up and listen to it. So that's also been like part of it for me as well as like

opening up like opportunity for like connection and joy even in the face of a lot of destruction. And again, also like you're saying, I like really think this is something that like most people can do and is really enriching and would help us like all kind of metabolize like so much of what has happened in the 20th century before the 20th century just like there's been so much like disruption in violence like that's happened for so many people and still happening obviously and in America in like the dominant American culture, I think there's a really big emphasis on forgetting and just being in this present moment and not realizing that we've come from somewhere. And I just really resist that urge to forget. And for me, that's also part of Uncestral Hel is like, how do we learn to remember? Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that so much.

No, I think the thing that really made me realize that ancestral healing is extremely real and necessary was maybe like a, I don't know how long ago was maybe like 10 years ago. I learned something about a family member that really put into context something that I was going through and that I have always felt and I just part with who I am. I'm being vague about it because it's just personal, but we could talk off Mike if you want. But for audience purposes, the point that I'm trying to get across is I learned something and I learned more about myself and I was almost

more at peace with how much I was struggling with what it was and I let myself be okay with how much I was struggling and the pain I was carrying because I recognized it wasn't just mine. It was it was it was hers. So yeah, I think if you ask me what the whole point of life is, it's self, maybe not improvements the right word, but like self discovery and like, I don't know, nature and leaving a place better than you found it. I think it's as simple as that. I think it gets really convoluted with other things. But yeah, as you said, I think anyone could benefit from learning more, because I agree. I think what you said about forgetting really resonated with me. So really like that. And like America has built on forgetting, like we're supposed to forget,

like the genocide of indigenous peoples on this land, were supposed to forget the horrors of slavery, were supposed to just forget even what's happening right now in our country. So I think the act of remembering has so much power to shake the current moment and to bring us to a new place. It's ironic that the biggest slogan of one of America's most tragic events is don't forget when you're about it. Totally.

It's like, oh, this is the one thing you're going to say. Yeah. Don't forget. Don't forget. Don't forget about everything else though. Totally. Yeah. And no, it's such a, like, that's our memory.

Yeah. And in Germany, they do have a lot no, that's our memory. Yeah. And in Germany, they do have a lot about memory culture. It's a really specific term that they have. And if you don't even have that, yeah, I'm going to have that term here in the US. Wait, can you explain that to me a little bit if you know about it? So Germany does have a big culture around remembering the atrocities of the Holocaust. And they call it memory culture. So that's monuments or museums. Just like how is like World War II discussed? How is the Holocaust remembered? And yeah, like they remember a lot more than we do, which is ironic and also not in some ways.

But yeah, we don't even have that concept here in the same way of like memory culture. Like what is our cultural of remembering? And I think obviously there has been some amount of that around like, yeah, like Indigenous history and like Black history, in relation to like monuments and things giving and like all of those things, but we don't have like really like memory culture like integrated into like a day-to-day existence. And in fact, it's obviously being even thought against like in Florida and other places like that. Oh, I just love that idea of memory culture in general. I've never heard of that.

Yeah. I love that so much. And I mean, just thinking about it just as we're talking, Germany has, they refused to forget an atrocity that they did, right? I think it's a little bit interesting that in America, they forgot about the atrocities they did, and they want to not forget about an atrocity that was done to them. So it's almost like very victim of America, if you ask me. If you ask me. Because it's really easy not to forget

when someone wronged you, but I think it's really convenient to forget when you you know destroy the entire civilization. You don't want to be put it lightly. And I'm not trying to say to take 9-11 lightly at all, I think what happened was it was a bit cautious and terrible. But when you think about memory culture and what Germany is so committed to remembering versus America, just a little interesting to me now that I think about it. And who committed what, rather? Yeah.

Before I get to Rambly, let's take our first break and we'll be right back. And we're back with Ami. Ami, when we were talking about recording together, in addition to ancestral healing, you talked about the importance of building a diaspora Jewish community that is committed to solidarity with Palestinians and other marginalized people, generally through an anarchist lens, and also building a safe community for Jews outside of Israel to counter the rhetoric that the only place that safe for Jews is Israel.

And as you said, it generally leads to a large focus on anti-fascism and cultural reclamation. So can you talk to me a little bit about that? And then there's certain communities that you're a part of that I really want to get into. But let's start there. Yes, so kind of in this journey, I would say of saying, okay, like if we're going to be Jewish anti-Zionist, we're going to be Jewish anarchists. Like, what does that materially look like? Like, how do we put that into practice? And so yeah, kind of honed in on those two aspects again

of safety and culture. And so a lot of my work now is around thinking about like how do we create safety for Jews in the places where they are livid and diaspora development and to like growing to this like Jewish and design is it in Jewish anarchism? Trying to understand like, what does it mean to like actually put this into practice?

And what I was thinking of that, I was trying to think of like, how do we create safety for Jews in the places where they want to live in diaspora and also create the environment where Jewish culture is able to flourish. for Jews in the places where they want to live in diaspora and also create the environment where Jewish culture is able to flourish. And that's led me, like you said, to developing and supporting and working with a lot of Jewish communities that are committed to anti-fascism committed to solidarity with other marginalized peoples and also really committed to

people's and also really committed to like recognition of Jewish traditions specifically by like more marginalized people within the Jewish community as well. And I really see like those projects as like part of my like solidarity work, even though it is supporting like Jewish people's in the day to day, but ultimately it's creating a spaciousness where Jews don't feel like they have to like cling onto Zionism in the ways that they were before. And I'm really curious also of how to sort of make that praxis more visible to the general left because I do like a big part of like the

book I'm writing like there's a whole section of me talking about what it's like to have lived in Pittsburgh like before and after the Tree of Life shooting where I was a teacher at the synagogue at the time that it happened. So my life was like very impacted by this. Like really like horrible like active violence, like anti-Semitic violence. And the most shocking part was that like anti-Semitism was occurring before that happened and it still continued after like in Pittsburgh specifically. So like the question left is like, are we actually addressing like the rise of anti-semitism

in America today? And that's why I want to like really talk about this practice of like addressing anti-semitism and allowing and creating space for Jewish culture conflaryish like as a praxis that I'm curious for more people on the left to understand as like vitally important like for Jewish people and also for solidarity with Palestinians too. So that's my topic that I'm very interested in right now. for solidarity with Palestinians too. So that's my topic that I'm, yeah, very interested in right now. No, I love that. I think it's so important what you're saying.

And so necessary to build a community where Jewish people feel safe. That, so yeah, they don't have to cling on to Zionism as a way to feel accepted or safe or belonged or have belonged to anywhere. And in that way, it's really simple to see how that is intertwined with solidarity of Palestinians because it ultimately is saying like Israel is not the end all be all like we're at the end of the day people going through shit have we have our cultures and we have to stick by each other.

Maybe that's a little bit elementary, but I think what I'm trying to say is I really appreciate that you have built this community and are so committed to continuing to enrich it and develop it because I think that's so essential especially just considering like The idea of Zionism in the first place like that really pure intention that was there I think it's it's okay to still live on in certain areas because it was pure It wasn't it wasn't about Israel at all

Israel as it is today rather So can you tell me about this organization rage? Yeah, so rage is this small collective column, that could have since her rebellious anarchist young June's in the most basic sense reform this as like a sort of response to like the Zionism that we were experiencing around us. And a lot of it, the word rage being anger of like, wow, I can't believe this is what's being sold to us as our liberation.

And what it formed into was after the Tree of Life shooting, my sublime pretty much text to me was like, let's make this thing happen again. And we started to create like more like political, like Jewish anarchists like art and writing and put it down to Facebook. And people started responding to it. And it really felt like a piece of like the rising of like a Jewish anarchist movement

in this country right now, a piece of the rising of a Jewish anarchist movement in this country right now, a piece of money, but something that kind of was a light, or like I'm supposed to phrase, like a bat signal, as early as I can put it, of like, hey, like all of you out there who are thinking about like what Jewish editors might mean, and are thinking about like what like organizing could look like when it's based on our culture and our practices and has like deep reverence for that instead of like an embarrassment around our practices, all of you who are creative and artistic, and that's your motive, engagement of engaging, we can come together and we can create something new. And that desire has just grown since then and is being reflected in so much organizing

right now. And rage itself is not really doing as much as a collective anymore, but definitely that spirit is living on in a lot of, like in the book I'm writing and the work that my siblings do in, and in a lot of the artistic creation that's happening around Jewish and our cousin. I love that. That's so cool. I'm really grateful that out of something so horrific that you went through, you were able to come together with your sibling and then almost use that as fuel to really come together.

I think it's really beautiful. Yeah. And I think that's like, that felt like the challenge in that moment was like, are we gonna use this as a moment to like to support the police who killed the shooter? We're going to use this as a moment to body up with the politicians who are trying to befriend the Jewish community now all of a sudden. Or are we going to use this as a moment, like a big phrase that was being thrown around in Pittsburgh was safety and solidarity.

Are we going to use this as to like really affirm that message and to really like speak to the danger that we are feeling as Jews in this country and the resilience that we have and the resistance and the revolutionary power we have to like sort of call out the systems that are creating that. And I'm really grateful, yeah, that may subling, and others around me were able to create that path through a more revolutionary mode. Yeah, it's important, especially, yeah, you don't want to see your community use as a tool for politics.

I think having that be a product of such a tragedy is shameful. And so fighting again, that I think is really necessary to maintain a sense of reality, to be honest, like a nugget cut up and like what ever reality, I don't know, politicians or the media or whatever the shit wants you to believe in. Yeah.

Yeah. So, a few years after range continued to grow, I was able to found this community center called Rutson Center for Healing and Resistance in Pittsburgh. And it's a queer Jewish anarchist community center. The only one, believe it or not, the US. Maybe in the world, that's cool. And also sad. You know what I mean? Like, I love it. I also have disappointed in us. Yes. And it was like, obviously, a lot of community support. Like, I'd say like, I found it. It was more like, I had the ability to like, like I'd say, like I found it, it was more like I had the ability to like sort of pull people together, pull together a space, get grant money, like do that type of work.

And the idea is really like when we are like in political struggle, we need to resist, but we also need to heal. And I think I was just also feeling like a lot in, and this was like in 2019-ish. So the like integration of like healing and more like therapeutic techniques, I felt like into like political frameworks like wasn't happening as much at the time,

is I think it is now, even. And just really claiming, like, we can't do political work without like our like healing work. And again, like that creating a space where we could engage in like anti-fascists, organizing, we could engage and solidarity with other marginalized people. And we could also really honor Jewish tradition and let that be a foundation for us. And yeah, I ended up leaving the community this time last year to pursue other things, but it's still as existing in Pittsburgh and is still very like a hub for not just Jewish people to you, but like a lot of people who are engaging in alien resistance work. Yeah, it's just I love that it exists and also just I was thinking actually I'm going to

hold that thought and I want to take our second break. Are you going to have to cut back and see what I was gonna say? So enjoy these ads. Okay, we're back. I had a coffee, and now I'm back. I was going to say that I love that all those things could be true at the same time, like a Jewish solidarity and Palestinian solidarity and remembering and practicing traditional rituals and cultural and traditions and practices and all this stuff.

I think it's nice to remember that all of those can be true at the same time because I think especially now people identify anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. And I think it's really important to see a community of Jewish people, like embracing their religion and culture and loving it. And at the same time, supporting Palestine, because it's just the clearest example of how Zionism is not a factor in your love of your culture and your religion. I think it's a really good example of just, I don't know, demonstrating how much of a falsity that isn't the first place to equate those two together when really Zionism itself is as is a cinematic

as we mentioned in the last episode. I also want to give us plenty of time to talk about your work and as much as you want to tell us about your new book to the ghosts who are still living, it's out and now everybody go get it. It's a book of essays. And yeah, can you, if you want to, tell me how you came about even starting to write these essays and like what motivated you to embark on this journey? you to embark on this journey? Yes, so I just came out today with this book to the ghost who I still live in. It's my first

book that I've written. It's pretty much a collection of essays that is broken up into three sections. The first section is like stories of my ancestors in Eastern Europe and their lives and them coming to America and like that process. The second section is my stories of living in Pittsburgh during the rise of anti-sephishism. The third section is returning back to my ancestor's shuttle, which I think village in Lithuania, last summer with my sister and kind of yeah grappling with these questions of like last summer with my sister and kind of yeah grappling with these questions of like, do I belong here? Like, what is this land where am I from? Like, where can I be in the world? So, I guess like the clearest moment of when I felt like I needed to write this was

during the summer of 2020 and there was an incident that I write about in the book of Nazis coming to like the anarchist bookstore in Pittsburgh, which was like a few blocks from my house at the time. And they were, I don't even remember like exactly what their posters said, but they were handing out these like anti-energists posters that like probably had something anti-semic on them also or just like that vibe was there and they were just flying and the cops came up and shook hands with these Nazis and let them stay. Wow. I mean, I was surprised, but so well.

Exactly. And then the Nazis actually ended up pulling a gun on some of the antifascist protesters who were there and didn't actually end up like shooting anyone, but that was the scene of what had happened. But still the fact that whoever that was able to do that in the cops were like, hey buddy. Yeah, exactly. Just to make it more clear how shit cops are. Totally. And so yeah, I just witnessed that all happen and I just kind of felt like the last last straw, I guess, the last thing. And I just felt like kind of ripped open inside realizing that the anti-semitism that I had been

researching like in my own family's history was like happening right now like to me in this moment. And I just had this feeling that like I was like I don't know if people on the left or people in general are like really seeing what's happening. You know, it's really like understanding like the fear that I have like as a Jewish person right now. And I'm not sure if people are like understanding that connection to like the contemporary fascism that's happening in the US to the fascism that my ancestors experienced. It made me really sad. It made me really feel so much pain because I just didn't want my family stories to be forgotten or not to be remembered in this

moment when I think we're trying to understand what's happening in this country and my family has already gone through a lot of what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. And we're being attacked now in that way. I mean, as far as our history books go, anti-Semitism ended when all of us ended, right? Exactly. So, you must save the day. Yeah.

Now, the Jews are right. Exactly. I think that's literally the narrative that a lot of people believe in this country, which is so unfortunate because it just, yeah, it's when so what incidents like this happen, it's not just like out of the blue. It's because there's this lingering hatred and fascism that's been there and just growing and evolving and going undetected even though it's so obvious, it's just become, I don't know, maybe, I was gonna say more subtle,

but at this point, it's not subtle at all. They're very outright about it. But I think it's like almost become normalized, or something. Exactly. But no, I thank you for sharing that. And I mean, I can imagine that potentially this book was like, maybe healthy process or like heal a little bit yourself at that

happen. Definitely. At a certain point, I was writing these essays. And I was like, I don't even year do anything with this. This has been the most healing project that I've already done. And so also my hope with this book is that the healing that it's offered me, perhaps it can offer to others. And I've kind of been thinking of it as in Jewish myth, there's this idea of a golem or a golem

that's this monster created from the mud with the word I met written on its forehead, which means truth. And this monster is like raised from the mud to protect the Jewish community of Prague against anti-Semitism. Yeah, it's a really cool story. That's cool. Yeah. So I've kind of been like, Oh, I wonder if like this book can kind of be like a golem, you know, like this kind of anti-fascists monster but creature made from words.

Yeah. That can like offer healing and maybe offer some like protection in this moment. So that's my greatest hope for this book right now. That's first of all sick about the young monster. Love that, love that for you, love that for me, love that for everybody. It's second, I think that's a beautiful intent and I think it 100% will help others heal. And even if the person reading it is not Jewish,

I think it's a poor inter-remember, and to realize that you still have very real fear being a Jewish person living in America or anywhere else. Because anti-Semitism did it get solved when Hitler shot himself. I'm sorry guys. And so I think this book can help a lot of people and I really encourage everyone to go buy it now. We're recording today on August 1st and today is when it was released. So by the time you hear it, it'll be out and ready to be read. I just highly encourage you to

And ready to be read, I just highly encourage you to really dive into Omnies work because it's just so important and so healing for everybody. Yeah. Thank you. Of course, I really appreciate you taking the time to open yourself up because I know a lot of these things, I've really painful origins and so I appreciate that you're really to talk about them. Yeah, thank you. And I also hope that like, yeah, like this book also can sort of be like a window for like leftists who want to like integrate more like Jewish history into their anti-fascism, that I can be like a window for that. And I do hope also that it can

also build bridges with other people who have experienced genocide, experience displacement from lands, experience ongoing fear for their safety, where they are in the world. And I hope that also by sharing my family stories that those bridges can start to like be built and we can start to create more community around that shared history as well

To really build strong ally ship with the Jewish community Actually understanding what that means and actually understanding what the Jewish community is going through and the fears they have I think that is where you have to start. So, yeah, I just so glad to have had this conversation. And I know people will benefit from it and I want 100% know people will benefit from your book. Again, that is to the ghosts who are still living. You can buy it now through your publisher, which is strangers and a tingled wilderness. Nice. I'll put all the links in the description of the episodes on his website and all the good stuff. But yeah, thank you again for joining me today. I'm going to probably drag you back at some point,

just to continue talking to you because you've been lovely. I don't think you had any happy G.P. back on. Hell yeah, I did a good job if he said that. I'm kidding. Do you have any kind of social media, do you want people to follow you out or just the book? I do, yes, let me. I'm really bad at social media. That was safe, but I don't get it wrong. I'm really bad at social media.

I was saved. But I'm trying to be better. Okay. You can also follow me on Instagram, on me, BlindTrad3. That's AMIWEMTRAUB and the number three. And I'm like I said, like the work I'm doing I hope is like Conversation starters is like ways to build connections. So also this was interesting to you Feel free to like reach out and say hey and

Yeah, my voice is just like one of many on this topic and of course I hope that yeah people continue to study and learn and explore the nuances of What I've shared today. Thank you. And a big reason why I wanted to have these conversations and have them as conversations that still illustrate that it's possible to talk about these, like Zionism in particular, which is this very taboo, almost like weird word to say out loud, just a lot of people. It's really helpful to talk about it casually and openly because that's how we're going to understand it. That's how we're going to understand the anti-signism and why Zionism isn't great right now and all this other stuff. So

I hope that someone took that away and we'll continue to have these conversations and their personal lives because this is just a fun podcast, you know, but real life is what matters. So yeah, that's all I have to say. Take you again, you are the best, and go buy Ami's book to the grocery store still living. Go buy it! Now! Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen here as a production of CoolZone Media. For more podcasts from CoolZone Media, visit our website CoolZoneMedia.com or check us out

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could happen here, updated in monthly, at CoolZoneMedia.com Slash Sources.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. 9-1-1, what's your emergency? It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. In the 1980s, we were in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. We weren't safe anywhere.

Would we be next? It was getting harder and harder to live in Mount Pine. Listen to the murder years on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The True Crime Podcast, Sacred Scandal, returns for a second season to investigate a led sexual abuse at Mexico's La Luz del Mundo Mega Church. Journalist Robert Garza explores survivor stories of pure evil experiences at the hands of

a self-proclaimed apostle who is now behind bars. I remember as a little girl being groomed to be his concubine, that's how I was raised. It is not wrong if you take your clothes off for the apostle. Listen to Sacred Scandal on the IHR Radio App Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up y'all, this is Eric Andreck, but I made a podcast called Bomming about absolutely tanking on stage. I tell gnarly stories, and I talk to friends about their worst moments of bombing in all

sorts of ways. Bomming on stage, bombing in public, bombing in life, like the time I stole a girl's phone during a set and she dumped on stage and threw a big A-maker punch to my nose. Listen to bombing with Aircon Dre on Wilfair's big money players network on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.