Behind the Bastards - Part Four: The Finders: CIA Child Trafficking Cult or Just Normal Cult?

Episode Date: January 25, 2024

Now bereft of their children, the Finders slide into old age and irrelevance with one last attempt to freak out the normies.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, this is Reed Isbwell and Dan Isbwell, otherwise known as the Brothers Hunt. We're hosting a new podcast, Gods Country, by Meteater and I Heart Podcast. Gods Country is a weekly drive to the intersection of music and the outdoors. Two things that go together like Sunday and some pond fishing are cows and green pastures. This record will be the one that it will always define who I am. So hop on in and ride shotgun with us. We take the back roads with some of the most influential people in country music today. Listen to God's Country on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your

podcast. On our new podcast, True Crimes of John and Deanna, we're turning our online investigative skills to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases. Police say 33-year-old b**** was shot dead. Gunned down in front of his two-year-old daughter. It was a targeted attack It appears to be an execution style assassination. This is very active. So we have to be careful Listen to two crimes with John and Deanna every Wednesday on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcast

A middle-aged electrician is murdered in a quiet Amsterdam suburb. The killing leads investigators into a web of drugs, money laundering, and state-sponsored assassinations that stretches from Dublin to Dubai. At the centre is a cocaine super cartel and a hidden economic war between democracies and dictatorships. It's the new season of the hit podcast from the Financial Times and Pushkin Industries, Hot Money, the New Narcos. Listen to Hot Money, The New Narcos investigate the most infamous free killing in the history of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

And you can help me by Googling Jamie Loftus, comma, Hammer Murders, comma, Michigan, comma, CIA, comma, Bill Clinton, comma. I'm taking this all the way to the fucking top and I'm saying that you're trying to associate me with Grand Rapids so that you can continue to pass yourself off as a Bostonian because I am the big knot in your Bostonian hoax.

Yeah, you're the only one who can expose me to the world. Yeah, and so they're trying to, listeners, they're trying to take me out because I have the truth. I'm a little too close to the truth. Yeah, and so they're trying to, listeners, they're trying to take me out, because I have the truth. I'm a little too close to the truth, one could say. And so people are gonna make accusations, and yes, it's gonna involve hammers, and yeah, it's all gonna sort of sound plausible for some reason based on my general vibe,

but I assure you, I've never even been to Grand Rapids. I went to Detroit for hot dog purposes only. Thank you. Now, Jamie, here's my question. Here's my question. This is an important one. Yeah. Why are you more concerned with being associated with Grand Rapids, Michigan, than Bill Clinton?

Fame sex criminal. I don't... What? I'm just saying, that's what you expressed was your issue. Fame sex criminal. I What? I'm just saying that's what you expressed was your issue not the Bill Clinton of it all Look, I I'm always What am I not talking about the Bill Clinton of it all and maybe that's a good let's let's change the subject to the Bill Clinton of it all I'd love to talk about the Bill Clinton of it at all and not the Jamie of it all because the Jamie of it all, you know, long story short, it's giving innocent. It's giving,

I didn't do it. And I couldn't have done it because I was, I was just a kid. And so were I to be prosecuted, you know, I, you couldn't as an adult, right? Wait, is that a thing? If I committed a crime when I was a kid and I'm caught as an adult, how, what happens? Oh, I think you're free and clear, which is why everyone listening, if you are under 16, go commit a murder, it's fine. Okay. You will not get in trouble.

Anyway. Okay, well, just to be, because I don't, because this does feel like a trap. I still admit to nothing. Mm-hmm Well, I admit to trying to get a bunch of 16 year olds to not Lose out on their one chance to commit a murder free of consequences Wow, my free of consequences I mean you might be arrested and put in juvie for several years But you're not gonna spend the rest of your life in prison if you're under 16. So go out there kids, you know.

Look there's a lot of oil executives out there, that's all I'm saying, you know. What are we, and we're about to talk about the CIA for another 1000. We sure are. How? No, we won't pass the CIA pretty quick. Why does he do this? It's a great question. I'm just trying to make the world a better place, or at least a place with slightly more interesting headlines,

which is the same as better. Well, Robert, you make the world a better place just by being in it, but okay. Oh, wow. Thank you for that lie, Sophie. I know, God, I gotta lie to you at least once a week. Robert's literally been ming Sophie as we speak. That was every time she every time Sophie says something nice. $12,000 for one life.

Wow. Yeah. I'm insecure today. So today back to the fine. Yeah. So in an article written by the Washington City paper in 1996, a journalist interviewed Toby Terrell. Now, this is the same guy, Robert Terrell, Toby's his cult name. I never really found a great explanation as to why this is the dude who's the IRS agent. If you're going to do a cult name, do a cult name.

Toby, that sounds like those sodas with the weird geckos drawn on them that we drank in middle school. That's my neighbor's dog's name. Try harder. So Toby Terrell is the former IRS agent who worked for the company trading those CIA agents who also later spoilers is going to sue Petty and the cult and then write a biography of Petty after he dies. So this guy number one kind of sus

Number two absolutely involved in every weird sketchy thing around this cult In 1996 he has left he's suing the cult for reasons that we will get into later and the journalist talking to him asks him Hey Was there any weird sex stuff with your cult? Right? Like, I know you guys got, you know, declared innocent or whatever, they dropped the charges, but everyone still suspects that you were doing something with those kids. Was there any weird sex stuff going on? And Terrell's answer, he definitely doesn't claim that they did any weird sex stuff with kids, but he does not deny that they did weird sex stuff.

He kind of does the opposite of denying it, right? Are we talking like weird illegal sex stuff or just weird sex stuff? No. Okay. I think just weird. So here's what he says. If you want to write a scholarly piece about the group and the historical context of the shakers and the Oneida communities, fine.

But for a newspaper article, I don't want to get into that. That's sensationalism. So he's basically saying, yeah, we were a weird utopian cult and like all weird utopian cults, we did some crazy sex shit. But I'm not gonna, I don't want it to be in a news article because you're just going to make it into something it's not. If you're like a scholar and you want to talk about

our weird sex shit in a scholarly context, that's fine. But otherwise no. What an interesting, that's fine, but otherwise no. What an interesting, that's an interesting stance to have. I actually think that's a fair stance to have where he's like, look, yeah, every cult does weird section, we're like a weird utopian community. But I don't wanna, yeah. If you're not writing a scholarly essay on it,

I choose not to comment. If you wanna put us in context, sure. If you just want to be like, they were doing weird sex shit for your news article, I don't want to be part of the sensationalism. I actually kind of respect that, even though this guy may in fact have been doing some shady spy shit. We really don't know.

Right, right. You're like, it's still ultimately bad, but I see, you know, I see where he, like, unfortunately,… unfortunately, bad people make good points. Yeah, that's a respectable answer to the question, is what I think. So, the idea of the CIA using a cult to spy on or otherwise disrupt left-wing activism is not far-fetched because we know for a fact that versions of this happened. Back during our episodes on MKUltra, I quoted several times from the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, which provides a detailed look at a number

of very weird CIA connections around Charles Manson. And there's debate, you know, it's possible he was, in fact, very likely that he received, was dosed with acid as a result of MKUltra. Very good chance he received some money. There's some like court things where he got in trouble and then it went away. It's all very unclear exactly what his relationship was, but the CIA was involved in kind of the fringe radical left community around the time of the Manson killings. And there's some suspicion that like, basically

they were hoping that that something like what happened with Manson would happen and it would discredit the anti-war movement, right? That is a, again, tracing out exactly what happened is really hard and I think there's a good chance the CIA didn't was just kind of vaguely hoping that by encouraging some shady figures, something would go down rather than plotting out

every step of it, but like some weird shit went down with them there. And we know for a fact that there were multiple cases in this period of time of people with intelligence connections intervening before the murders to help outmance and get him out of legal jams. The CIA was undeniably engaged in something called Operation Chaos from where Tom O'Neill's book takes its

title. This was the CIA's counterpart to Cointel Pro, right? So the FBI is Cointel Pro where we're infiltrating these groups and we're trying to make them not trust each other, trying to convince everyone on the left that everyone else on the left is a federal agent, right? Like that was Cointel Pro in a nutshell. There was more to it than that. The CIA's counter to that was this plan to disrupt the left in the United States by kind of sowing chaos and discord. And I'm gonna quote from the New York Times here.

The CIA had undercover contacts monitor the meetings of groups, such as the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the Washington Urban League. It maintained files on nearly a thousand organizations. By August 1973, when CIA director Colby virtually halted this project, the paper trail left by Operation Chaos included somewhere in the area of 13,000 files on subjects and individuals. The report discloses. Link to this was a computer system containing an index of over 300,000 names and organizations,

almost all of them United States citizens and organizations unconnected with espionage. Mr. Helms and the high officials of the Johnson and Nixon administrations with whom he dealt were well aware of the fact that they were breaking the law, thus in submitting to Henry Kissinger a report on restless youth. Mr. Helms wrote in a covering Minmaramdum early in 1969 that a section on American students was extremely sensitive because the whole area was outside of the agency's charter. So first off, the CIA is a foreign intelligence. Like their purview was foreign intelligence. They are not allowed to act like to spy on Americans. They are not allowed to. That's not

what, no, they did a lot of it. But that was like, they did it Americans, they are not allowed to, that's not what, no, they did a lot of it. I was like, I was like, they did a ton of it. But they're not allowed to. On paper, they are not supposed to. They are, they are for overseas, the FBI is for domestic, right? It's so funny how easy it is to forget that just based on like shit, their whole history. Respectively did. Yeah.

Okay. I'm not saying that to say like the CIA wouldn't have done that. No, they absolutely did. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm not saying that to say like the CIA wouldn't have done that. No, they absolutely did it. It was just illegal. But the other thing that I think that quote should make clear is that like, there's absolutely a place for fight the finders in Operation Chaos, right? They're spying on all sorts of weird groups.

They're reaching out with weird questions to progressive groups. They know computers. They're maintaining massive computer databases. Like all of this is shit they could have been involved in, right? progressive groups, they know computers, they're maintaining massive computer databases. Like all of this is shit they could have been involved in, right? Like this is Operation Chaos is like tailor made for these guys. And we know that Operation Chaos extended through to 1974 and the finders started in 1971. We know that the CIA was aware of Marion Petty at least in 1969 when he started traveling to communist countries.

So there's at least a three year, at least a three year period, where there's a non-zero chance, where not only is there a decent chance that the CIA was interested in what the finders could bring them, but we know the finders were doing the kind of shit that the CIA was doing, right? Keeping these notes and building extensive databases

on left wing domestic organizations, right? Keeping these notes and building extensive databases on left-wing domestic organizations, right? So, you know, not impossible. Also, no real evidence other than like what we have sort of asserted, right? Like no clear evidence as to exactly what they would have been doing. But it's not at all impossible or unlikely that there was something going on. Right. God, okay, yeah. So that's fun.

Yeah. So that's fun. This problem is consistent throughout this organization's entire history, but it just, yeah, it continues to get more and more tangled as time goes on. So what year are we in at this point? Well, we've kind of jumped around a little bit

just because like there was the thing that happened in 87 where like the CIA took those training courses with the computer company that was tied to the founders. That happened before they were all arrested, but it didn't break until 93. But yeah, we still have not resolved the court case. And I do, I don't know how to not jump around at this point because it's so labyrinthine

and like the dates at which different things were found out. I hope this has not been unclear to people. It's just such an odd story. I wasn't really sure how else to structure it. I trust you. Yeah, one of the first men to study the Finders and to comb their story for evidence of spy shit was a guy named Wendell Minnick.

Minnick was the author of an encyclopedia of espionage called Spies and Provocateurs. He spent two years digging into petty, I think of the late 80s and his cult and he wound up abandoning his research after, and this really dates his research, after he spent $1,000 in phone calls. You can do that back in the day.

And he was like, I spent all this money like tracking down leads and trying to figure out shit about them. And I found nothing. I mean, the dog has, I sent too many texts. And now my family is getting addicted. Yeah. Long distance calls used to be a thing, people. He later told a reporter, the finders would love you to think they're a CIA front, but I would say they're really nothing. You're going to hear a lot of bullshit on the finders because they lie. These are dysfunctional adults, but they're all working their asses off.

They're constantly working on some project. If you have a cult, the best way to control people is to keep them busy, to keep their minds occupied. If you have people standing around doing nothing, then they start thinking. So that's Minix's attitude is that like, these people desperately want you to think

they're a CIA front, but like, most of why we have all this information that kind of seems like they might be spies is because they desperately want people to believe that. Because that makes it a lot cooler than that they're a bunch of weird adults larping some guy's game. Yeah, are you, how are you inclined to feel about that?

Because I just like I understand why that's possible, but there's so much other I close connections to the CIA. Like I suspect Petty wanted to be a spy. Maybe it was a little jealous of his wife, wanted to be involved and started when he started doing this, reaching out to them with information. And I think there's a pretty good chance somewhat the agency may have strung him along to see if he had anything useful. And I kind of doubt he gave them much because I don't think these people were super serious.

But that's my suspicion is that there was some level of connection between them But that it was still mostly petty wanting to feel important, right rather than like them giving use because there's no here's the thing There's absolutely no Information or allegations of like this group of left-wing Activists was arrested because of info that the finders gave, right? We've heard nothing, there have been no allegations. And I kind of think by this point, there would be something specific as to like here is what they did for the CIA.

And it's all these kind of like vague insinuations and like loose, weird connections that make me think, yeah, he may have been trying to give them info and he may have just not had that much of use. But I don't know. And we probably never will at this point. But there is just something so profoundly tragic about a larper who can't even become vaguely interesting to the CIA.

Yeah. Because he's jealous of his wife. He's like, I want to do my crimes like my ex-wife. Yeah, I want to do crimes against humanity like she did. Come on. Girls get everything. Because obviously the FBI comes out and says, like, we don't believe these guys were involved with the CIA

in any meaningful capacity, right? That's, that's, and we don't believe they were sex trafficking kids. And the conspiracy theorists will say, well, of course the FBI would say that they're the FBI. They exist to cover up government crimes. But those people, the source that they cite is Ramon Martinez, who's also a Fed.

So like either way on this, you're trusting one federal agent or another, you know? Which is never a situation you wanna be in if you're trying to track down the truth about like a conspiracy. Now, it's also worth noting that Ramon Martinez and I found this, the QAnon anonymous guys did an episode on the finders and they found references to Martinez by some like there's at least one prominent conspiracy theorist, the guy who's kind of the origin of the black helicopter,

like family of conspiracy theories, who is like, yeah, this guy was like a friend and he was a cool dude and we like chatted a bunch. Basically like this guy Martinez, who came up with all these allegations against the finders that no one else ever verified, was a lifelong conspiracy theorist. And that may have explained-

No shit. Yeah. That's also, it's like there is such, you know, it's like, it's not as if there isn't some rich crossover between federal agencies and conspiracy theorists. No. Such a rich gradient we're exploring.

The FBI, we know, as part of J. Edgar Hoover's like Co-ENTEL Pro was like, yeah, we're going to try and incite conspiracy theories. The more conspiratorial we can make the left, the less they'll trust each other and the more they'll fight rather than like engage in organized action against the government. So it's also, I guess the other possibility is that

the finders were never working for the CIA in a meaningful capacity, but the CIA may have wanted them to think that because they wanted something like this to happen, right? For them to become the nexus of a conspiracy theory. Also a conspiracy that's totally possible and within the CIA's wheelhouse. So I don't know.

At the end of the day, Jamie, I don't know exactly what was going on with these people, but I do know that all charges against the two finders members who were arrested and charged with child abuse were dropped after six weeks. And the children were all ultimately returned to their mothers. And you know what else was returned to its mothers? No, this I hate this transition. Well, Jamie, I love this transition, just like the mothers of those kids loved their children. All right.

More so, more so. Even more so, but not as much as you love these products and services. No, no one has ever loved their children as much as I love the products and services that support this podcast. That's just a fact. Jamie. It's sad, but it's true. No one I use that. I really hope the next ad is like dick pills.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely way better than a kid. Anyway. Hey, this is Reed Isbill and Dayan Isbill, otherwise known as the Brothers Hunt. We're hosting a new podcast, Gods Country Country, by Meteater and I Heart Podcast. God's Country is a weekly drive to the intersection of music and the outdoors. Two things that go together like Sunday and some pond fishing. Our cows and green pastures. We're talking to the riders behind your favorite songs

about the deer they've loved and they've lost. So I shot an 11 point with a 23 inch inside spread, like it was a giant. And somebody stole it. And the story's behind their biggest hits. Well they hooked that man. They really hooked that. That's right in 101.

And hearing from today's biggest stars like our friend Michael Hard Rock Hardy. This record will be the one that it will always define who I am or like just as an artist. So hop on in and ride shotgun with us. We take the back roads with some of the most influential people in country music today. Listen to God's Country on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Ah, ah, ah, we're f***ed. Shadooby, Shadooby, but you be, you be what. Hi, I'm Chris Turni, and if you're like me, it's easy to read all the bad news about the climate and just think, we're f***ed. That's why I've started a new podcast called, Unf***ing the Future.

Every episode, we'll speak to someone taking on the climate crisis in a clever way, like the filmmaker Adam McKay. We're dealing with just a gargantuan force and the number one thing I've been trying to do through the whole thing is just keep my sense of humour. The guest list is amazing. UN Goodwill ambassador Sabrina Elba, climate activist Bill McKibben and Maggie Baird. We even have Bill Nye the Science Guy. If you go into this thinking we're going to get overwhelmed and lose, then we will. Cut it out people. Listen to I'm F***ing the Future on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whether you get your podcast. We're on F***ing the Future.

We're on F***ing the Future But I'm... Merry Christmas! It's a wonderful life as one of the most popular movies ever, but it has more to offer you than you ever thought. Do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000? In this world where there's a lot of hopelessness, people need this movie. George Bailey was never born. During the many partaking in this one-of-a-kind podcast experience listen to all ten episodes available now on the

I-heart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast save George Bailey comm subscribe now And we're back boy if there is a dick pillow ad after that's really going to get the whole child molestation conspiracy theory people talking. I, okay. I have a question. Yes, Jamie. Have any of these kids since spoken on this new period in their lives? Not that I have found. None of these.

Interesting. Again, it would be it would be pretty damning if some of them had come forward and said, yeah, we were absolutely molested, but doesn't appear to have happened. Which is part of why- But there's just like nothing interesting. Yeah, that's part of why I suspect the FBI is probably correct in its conclusion

that no kids were molested because like- Sure. At this point, something probably would, like, Petty's dead, the cult's gone, something probably would have come out. All these kids are adults now. Yeah. But nothing has.

And there's just, again, there were never, the kids never claimed anything. This isn't even like, you get some of these satanic panic cases where like these kids become convinced that they were part of some like, yeah, there's not even that, right? The kids are never,

like the most they have is that like one of the little girls when they ask her if she was molested Gets uncomfortable which like we have some strange adult cop starts asking you if someone touched you that's pretty awkward Yeah, it's not evidence that she was molested that she was not comfortable in that situation Yeah, that's not a comfortable situation Yeah, so I Don't the CI again where, where I land is like the CIA stuff, big fat maybe.

There's like six different possibilities that you cannot rule out as to what may have happened there. The sex trafficking children's Satanist thing, no evidence whatsoever. Right, and like historically, those allegations in this era, like it doesn't, it doesn't. That's where I land on this stuff. Now, I should also, again, some of the blame for lingering conspiracy theories about the finders as agents of the CIA or some of this by agency.

Right. It doesn't absolve, like it is ultimately, I fully believe that it's probably their fault that this has stuck for so long. But- It absolutely is, cause like they, he likes, he deliberately has his people go out and incite some of these rumors, like while the case is still going on, just to like add to the media circus,

possibly because he liked seeing his name in the paper. I don't fully know. John Cohen's article on The Finders was published a year or so after the court case ended, right? So this is the first good piece of media we get on it because there's, this whole, all blows up. Everybody's talking on the news. Connie Chung's talking about satanic child molestation cults and then nothing happens, the case gets dismissed. And so Cohen does an actual good piece of journalism trying to figure out what happens. And he's the first person to interview one of the mothers, Paula Errico, about like what happened.

And she tells him like, yeah, we all left the cult, all of the women with kids left the cult after this because we were pissed at Petty for how he handled it. Quote, Paula Errico nearly spits up her food laughing when I tell her people suggest the finders may be spooks. Errico and I are sitting at a restaurant in Tallahassee. She resettled here after the juvenile court finally deemed her fit to raise Mary and John Paul. Those are her kids. That's their model to pretend their CIA says Errico, who was in the group for eight years and now works as a bookkeeper. Who wouldn't it be an exciting life? And again, this is like one of the moms at the center of it,

who's like, presumably would have reason to like be angry at them or go out of her way. If like something shady had been happening, who was like, no, they were assholes playing a stupid game with my kids. And by the way, that's plenty to qualify them as bastards. That's a bad thing to do. Absolutely. I know I, it also just like being, you never know what, what past lives your bookkeeper has been up to. Who knows? They're like, you know, yeah, was I in a larping cult? Yes. But once they started to fuck with my kids, I had to walk. Yeah, it was possibly a CIA spy cult,

but you know, anything can happen in your 20s. It kind of doesn't count. And I kind of get the feeling that Petty, when the media interest started to fade as the case gets dropped, that's when he got most interested in spreading disinformation. And I'm gonna read from Cohen here again,

because this is really fucked up. A memo attributed to M.D. Petty, delivered to the Tallahassee Democrat, that's a newspaper, said that he was resigning as leader of the Finders, a position he said he didn't know he held. I thought I was just a consultant on wit and humor, the memo said. If I ever was the leader, I hereby resigned to devote myself full time to Zinn walking. The Finders also started publishing a newsletter, The Daily Finder, in which they announced that they were all moving to Tallahassee.

The Finders are always looking for signs and symbols, they wrote. Since February 4th, Florida has been sending signals that they wanna keep some Finders members, so now the rest are coming. Another issue of The Daily Finder, Come to Tallahassee, invited friends to come join the drama andinder, Come to Tallahassee, invited friends to come join the drama and featured the song Old Tallahassee.

Well, I came to Tallahassee in a van so full of glee, they put me in the jailhouse with the chain up on my knee, so they're like writing songs about, again, the children of their members being held by the state. Like they're putting out these like fake newspapers, they're trying to get people to like move to Tallahassee to like fuck with the squares. It's all very irresponsible. I'm sorry, I just am like trying to, like you were singing.

Yeah, yeah, why? I like, no, no, no, no. You don't get the full effect otherwise, Jamie. I liked it, I felt like I was there. Robert has a really good singing voice. Thank you, thank you. It was beautiful. I thought it. I felt like I was there. Robert has a really good singing voice. Thank you, thank you. It was beautiful. I thought it was beautiful.

So as a coda, again, I do want to add something. It's not impossible that children were abused. Again, there's no evidence of sexual abuse, but the neglect that was evident here, we might fairly call abuse. And that's not uncommon in cults. I'm not saying no children were hurt. Definitely, what Pet petty is doing there?

These sending out fake newsletters trying to keep the shit in the news by like spreading doubt after the case gets dismissed. You could argue that's abusive to these kids who it harms them, slows down their ability to like rejoin a normal life. That's bad. Yeah, I mean, even, yeah, you know,

being guilty of neglect, that's absolutely abuse. And just like putting the children in that situation in the first place where they have to, you know, defend themselves against all this stuff. Like it's just, it is abusive. It's just, maybe not the kind of abuse that people often go to prison for, unfortunately. Yeah, one of the more fucked up things that comes out in this John Cohen article after the case gets dropped is that, you know how like when they initially get pulled over by

the cops, the like two male adult cult members are like, we're taking these children to Mexico to put them in a genius school. We're making a Harvard for babies. Well, they didn't, it turns out they didn't come up with that dipshit excuse on the fly. They were instructed to say that by Petty if they were approached by the police. Which like, you have to know that's going to make the police suspicious.

That's not gonna calm down an investigation. Like you have like six kids you're not related to in a van and they're like, we're taking them into Mexico. That's going to get you all arrested. I don't, I don't understand. Yeah. The, do we, I mean, it's also like, do we believe that that is the, it is the most made up sounding like I have to make something up on the fly thing in the world.

I don't under, like everyone. Everyone here is like making, except for the mothers, baffling decisions because. It's nonsense. I feel like there has to be, but again, it's like, I can't even say a sentence about this without sounding conspiratorial. I'm like, I feel like there's something we're missing.

There may be. Some missing piece of information. I cannot make sense of it. It's really weird. What I do think, so it, what it seems like happens is after the case gets dismissed, it comes out through like reporting and interviews with Petty that a lot of this was his fault because he coached his guys to give these evasive weird answers.

And he also coached everybody to respond in a really weird and irresponsible way during the court case. And so all of these women with kids take their children and leave the cult. And this kind of destroys the cult? Whatever else was going on, the goal of the finders, according to internal members, focused heavily around these kids. They were trying to raise better people in this enlightened way. And all of these businesses that they were running

and using to accumulate money, the idea was that it would be given to these kids. That would be their inheritance for the next generation of the cult. So when all these moms leave, it kind of fractures not just the cult, but their identity and their understanding about like what the future is going to be.

This, it kind of, some will argue this kind of breaks petty, right? That like now there's no future to this cult. It's just him and the last hangers on who couldn't break free from him playing games with no purpose. Like there's not any sort of attitude that they're building anything that they're like raising up a new generation. They have nothing now, except for continuing to play weird games. And it gets increasingly kind of sad after this point, which is a bummer. So yeah, petty claims in the wake of the case that the finders have disbanded, but that is not true.

They continue. Who's left? Like what are their numbers like at this point? About a dozen, somewhere between 10 and 20 people, right? That's okay. Usually you hear about a dozen. I'm not getting out of bed for a cult with less than 40 people.

And all the guys left, I think, are pretty much all men, right? Most of the women leave at this point, which just say something again to like this being a lower control type of cult than most. Yeah, never a good sign. Well, it's a good sign that the women felt like, yeah, we can bounce and nothing bad's gonna happen to us like they had agency, right? Right part of why a lot of shit about the felt crumbles is these women were largely running things for petty and then they leave and it's him and these guys and most of the guys are kind of drips

Like they're they're they're just like weirdos who want to play spy games And so it's just kind of them now. So after the kids leave, and there's no one to hand over inheritance of the businesses and property to, petty changes the way their finance system works, right? Previously, according to Terrell, when you joined, you gave all your money to the Colt, but it was like put in what they called the invisible bank.

And Tarot was like, if you wanted to take your money out, you could. We people did it all the time. They weren't stealing from you. And in fact, like Colt finances were pretty healthy, like we ran businesses that were successful. It was like you can trust that you would get your money back. After these women take all their kids with them, Petty changes the finance system to basically a tontine where he's like, no one can withdraw their money. All of the money

in businesses will go to the last one of us alive, which is a sketchy way to run things, right? That's weird that that's that's my first time hearing that one. I feel like I've heard it all. I haven't heard that one before. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. And this is what finally convinces Toby Terrell to leave, right, like this is why he actually leaves the cult and he winds up suing Petty

because he's like, he stole all of our money. Right. I was fine with him until he started fucking with my money. So in 1996, after the hubbub around child trafficking and the court case against the finders had mostly subsided, a journalist named Eddie Dean traveled down to Florida to meet with Terrell and write an article for the Washington City paper. Despite the fact that he was actively involved in suing Petty, Terrell was like really positive

about his former cult leader. Like he doesn't have a negative look towards him. He says, quote, I think if you look at the history of utopian movements in America, the finders have a legitimate place because of the experimentation that went on. It was a good experiment. A lot of people learned from it and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It lasted for 20 years while I was there and I wouldn't call it a failure, he says, adding, I still think petty is a man of great insight and the world would do well to listen to his ideas.

Now here's the thing, I've read everything about this cult, I don't know what his ideas are. I don't know what his insights are, they seem like they were larping. What was the goal? I, that is like a classic in the genre of like, say what you will about their methods. See, he had some good ideas and you're like, but did he? What was the idea? At least with like Elron Hubbard, right? When people are like, look, the cult's bad, but you know, his ideas were really good.

At least, I don't agree with him. His ideas were dog shit, but he had ideas, right? There's books full of his theories. There was something to latch on to. I still am struggling with like, outside of like, yeah, I wanna, I like spy movies and I could do that. Like, what are you latching on to? Yeah.

And he's suing him. Like, what? I don't get it. Yeah. It's like, I think the thing they're talking about is his idea that like, you know, life should be a game and you should always be learning. But like he picked a weird way to learn. And also like, what did we learn?

Yeah, what did you learn? Don't play games with the FBI when your kids are taken into custody on suspicion of being molested as part of a devil conspiracy. I feel like I know that. Well, most people know that. Yeah. That's pretty intuitive. I don't think that's adding very much. That's like, again, you're just like,

what's the missing piece of information here? Why would someone say that? It doesn't, I don't know. We, what, I feel, well, Robert, I feel no closer. I feel no closer to understanding any of this. This is a little bit of a fucking cipher here. But what is interesting to me is that like, even Paula Errico, who again leaves the cult and takes her kid with her because of how badly Petty handles this whole case, won't speak badly about him

afterwards. Quote, though she left the Finders more than a year ago, it's still we this and we that. She also speaks lovingly, no adoringly, of Petty. The rest of us are just dead between the ears compared to him, she says. Errico also provides some of our best insight into why Petty's cult functioned the way it did, with all its weird information gathering missions and spy games. And this is John Cohen writing, but why compile a giant who's who I ask? It's a mystery why things are of interest to Petty, but he's not able to call complete games

if he doesn't have complete information. You don't know what game Petty has in mind to call tomorrow. He already has it in mind. He's got next year's game in mind. Based on the information, you're bringing him right now. And again, what the fuck does that mean? Like, is that all, like, is that when you people talk about like how he's such a genius,

is he just a good DM? Like, were you all playing a big game of Dungeons & Dragons and he was just really good at it and that's why you think he's a genius? The only thing I can really, it's like the only thing that seems like he has successfully and permanently diluted his followers into thinking is that he is ultimately a pretty smart guy.

Like everything else, they seem like they can kind of take or leave, but they could not let go of the concept that like, but he wasn't, you know. I've seen no evidence, he's certainly not dumb, but I don't see any evidence that he's smart, in part because he does some really dumb shit that loses him Most of his cult and it was really basic dumb shit And they're not I also don't I mean unless again unless there's like a missing piece of information

It doesn't seem like people are saying this because they're scared of him It just seems to be an honestly held assessment, which I just don't... Well, and that's... Based on what? You do get those police reports where they talk to 20 different members who are like, they harassed my family, you know, they harassed me, maybe they burned a house down, but then you get Paula, who tells a journalist, the best thing for me is that I lived and worked with my best friends for eight years. It's hard to have that, and in a situation where everyone is committed to working it out, if you've ever had that one-on-one relationship with

another person, whereas there's that long-term level of commitment, I had that with 20 people. And she's again saying that after the coat gets her child taken away from her for six weeks. So like, I don't know. She's talking like she's like a cast member of Cheers. And it's like, it's so weird. We had a tough time now and again when Kelsey Grammer would get too drunk, but I wouldn't change it for anything. But ultimately we were all good friends and I will come back for the reunion. Very fucking weird.

It is very fucking weird. And yeah, it's all peculiar. So Petty is a smart guy. He tended to avoid, again, I think his smartness is exaggerated, but he does sort of like, he's good at branding, because even these, branding's not the wrong word, he's good at manipulating information,

because these two good articles on him that come out after the court case, the one by John Cohen and the one by Eddie Dean. They both give a lot of really interesting context. They talk to a lot of former members, but petty comes off as totally innocuous in them, right? As like misunderstood, and maybe he had some like bad judgment here and there,

but there was nothing evil or abusive about him, and it's kind of silly to even call him a cult leader. Now that said, there are some hints in these and other articles that he was more abusive and cruel than he let on to being, right? That like hidden beneath the surface was evidence of the kind of behavior the police were reporting on when they talked to former members. Here's Eddie Dean talking about what happened when he interviewed Marion Petty after having talked to Toby Terrell. So he goes to talk to Terrell, who lives elsewhere in Virginia. And Terrell is like, yeah, I'm suing him

because he took my money, but I think he's a nice guy. And then when he meets up with Petty finally, in whatever, in another part of Virginia, he tells Petty, hey, I met with Terrell, and here's what happens. Toby used to be quite a character, Petty says warmly. He used to have a handlebar mustache and sing songs for the group and all kinds of things.

Then he added soberly. Toby had a great time with us until this woman told him that he was Toto and that I was the Wizard of Oz and they were going to expose the wizard. I tell him I had already interviewed Terrell and was impressed with his admiration for the former game caller despite their conflict. There's dead silence.

Both men hunch forward in the chairs. You saw Toby, asks Petty, his face twisted with concern. Where was he? I promised that I, I said that I promised I wouldn't tell, I say that I promised Terrell. I wouldn't tell anybody where we met except to say it was somewhere in Virginia. He's up around here, demands Petty. Where is he? It's clear that Petty feels I owe him at least as much after all he's told me. And the journalist doesn't tell

him where petty is, but like, that's potentially, there's some unsettling stuff in there. For one thing, Toby leaves the cult with a woman who had been in the cult who wanted to leave because of all the shit that petty did during the arrests, right? Petty is like blaming this woman for corrupting Toby's mind and turning her against him. Yeah, you read that quote and you went, this woman, I was like, yeah.

This woman. Yeah, you're like, well, I've heard this. And there's also- I've heard this refrain before. She mean I were like, ooh, triggering. We've got a lot of, we've got some members who leave and it's fine, but like as soon as Petty finds out that Terrell's in it,

he's like, where is he? Where is he? We're trying to figure out, and maybe for a really bad reason, right? These guys are in here. Yeah, maybe. That is potentially some evidence that, yeah, this is a much worse person

than a lot of these journalists wind up interpreting him as. I'm also just like, again, with the handlebar mustache. Oh yeah, that seems to have been a thing. I'm sure Petty made them do that. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I would hope so. I would hope so. But again, that is- Yeah, the fucking hercule-parot looking asses, yeah.

Fucking bullshit. Well, whatever it is that made this guy, even smart passing and possibly diabolical was clearly not picked up on, you know, intentionally or not by at least, you know, three federally funded agencies. So that's fun. Yeah. It is fun. You know, it's even more fun, Jamie.

No. The products and services that this podcast is supported by. You're damn right. by MeatEater and I'm Heart Podcast. God's Country is a weekly drive to the intersection of music and the outdoors. Two things that go together like Sunday and some pond fishing. Or cows and green pastures. We're talking to the riders behind your favorite songs about the deer they've loved and they've lost. So I shot an 11-point with a 23-inch inside spread like it was a giant. And somebody stole it.

And the story's behind their biggest hits. Boy, they hooked that, man. Yeah, yeah. They really hooked that. That's, that's right in 101. And hearing from today's biggest stars, like our friend, Michael Hard Rockhardt. This record will be the one that it will always define

who I am or like just as an artist. So hop on in and ride shotgun with us as we take the back roads with some of the most influential people in country music today. Listen to God's Country on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Ah, ah, ah, we're f***ed. Shadooby, Shadooby, dooby, what?

Hi, I'm Chris Turni, and if you're like me, it's easy to read all the bad news about the climate and just think we're That's why I've started a new podcast called Unfucking the future Every episode will speak to someone taking on the climate crisis in a clever way like the filmmaker Adam McKay We're dealing with just a gargantuan Force and the number one thing I've been trying to do through the whole thing is just keep my sense of humor. The guest list is amazing.

UN Goodwill Ambassador Sabrina Elba, climate activist Bill McKibben and Maggie Baird. We even have Bill Nye the Science Guy. If you go into this thinking we're going to get overwhelmed and lose, then we will. Cut it out, people. Listen to I'm F***ing the Future on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or whether you get your podcast. We're on F***ing the Future. It's a wonderful life is one of the most popular movies ever, but it has more to offer you than you ever thought.

Do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000? In this world where there's a lot of hopelessness, people need this movie. George Bailey was never born. During the many partaking in this one of a kind podcast experience, listen to all 10 episodes available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Save GeorgeBailey.com, subscribe now. And we're back.

We're back to conclude the story of the finders. I just mainlined whatever it was that was advertised, especially if it would kill me. Yeah, yeah, which most of it will. That's the one promise we make about our sponsors. They'll fucking kill you. Yeah. So whatever you can say about the finders and how evil they were or weren't or how

evil Petty was or wasn't, after, you know, the early 90s, they seem to have like been pretty benign. Most of what I can verify they did was fuck with normies and coal pepper in like a mile away, right? They're in coal pepper Virginia and they're just kind of like trying to make people suspicious of them, but not really doing anything sketchy.

Coat finances were good enough that they purchased an abandoned movie theater in the center of town. And, you know, it's got a marquee on the front of it, right? Where you, like, put the names of the movies. And every day or so, one of Petty's members would change the marquee to read something cryptic. And they would always do it at, like, night when no one was up. So no one ever saw it get changed.

You just wake up and there'd be something weird written on it. That happened in a bagel store near where I lived in Maine. Oh yeah? What kind of cryptic shit? Here, let me let me look it up. I would take pictures of it every so often. I will read you. Yeah, no, you hit me with yours. I'll hit you with mine. Yeah. So one day it read school for actors and not spelled the way actors are spelled. Spelled a k t e rS. No idea what that means.

The next day it would read, Spycraft, a great game. And then the next, free money. And then the next, Adoraxia. Adoraxia? Adoraxia, yeah. What is that? I think it's an inability to feel fear. Oh, I thought that they were misspelling the eating disorder. Yeah, yeah,

it's imperturbability. It means that like, yeah, you can't you can't be flustered or frightened, basically. Well, I mean, sure, I don't know. Here's what Mr. Bagel in Portland, it's a state of serene calmness. Yeah. OK. Improturbability. I've got here's one from Mr. Bagel. Unconditional love for us and all is heaven here and now. And then underneath it says, new red bull menu. There's another joy is possible. Our constructs keep us from attaining it.

And then again, below new Red Bull menu. So I think at the bagel shop, the employees were probably just like drinking 40 Red Bulls and deciding to put them to market. They were just hallucinating from too much touring. Kevin is here now. Yeah. And like none of that makes much, but it's all like shit that's going to make people in a small town in Virginia in the late 90s suspicious. Like, yeah, you know, and I think they're just doing it to have people talk about them, right?

Small town people are the most paranoid humans who have ever existed. So it's not surprising that this caused consternation. Eddie Dean would later write, quote, in appearance, the finders, mostly middle-aged men, always in dark suits, wouldn't be out of place managing a local funeral home. But the behavior of the handful of adherents

has people wondering whether they arrived by flying saucer. Townspeople say the finders constantly walk the streets, following people home and taking extensive notes and pictures. They often appear at local council meetings, never saying a word, but simply observing the scene. At other times, they plunder the visitor center of brochures, maps, and local travel guides, and they haunt the courthouse, scouring land deeds to find out who owns local real estate. Naturally though, rumors fly. Did you hear what the

finders are doing at the old theater? They're planning a stage production of Paradise Lost with an all-new cast. Or was it a Gabe or Lesk version of Dante's Divine Comedy, where the finders gathered for some ritual in the back lot, or where they simply taking trash to the dumpster? People have seen glowing lights in the windows of the finders' group house at the edge of home, along with visitors coming and going at odd hours. The lawn is mowed in a peculiar circular pattern. That's the place where they sacrifice pot-bellied pigs.

So, all of this is nonsense. These are just like rumors that are spreading in town. Because Petty wants that. It's just viral marketing for bad community theater. Yeah. And you should go to jail for doing that. Yes. That's all they're doing is he's like, how weird can we be to create the maximum number of cons... Yeah.

Mow the lawn weird, put some marquees up on the thing, turn lights on at weird hours of the night, you know, follow people home at a distance, taking notes visibly in a notepad. Like they're just fucking with the normies, which I normally, I actually, in this case, I do respect it. Like it's not cool when you're like endangering children, but this is a fun thing to do the rest of the time. I don't know. I mean, it like, it's certainly annoying,

but it's like improv everywhere annoying at that point where you're like, yeah, should they be executed? Yes, for, but we can't we have not yet succeeded to, you know, be able to execute improvisers. And so no, when I when I win the presidency, Jamie, that's the first federal law, like as an executive order, I'm going to mandate the death penalty for improv people. Yeah, it's illegal for anything else, but improv, improv, it can be on site. And just, yeah, everyone, I'm deputizing the entire country to carry out,

and this is actually, I think, what can heal the left-right divide in this country. We can get communists and fascists all on board with taking out the fucking improv people. Finally, a true bipartisan issue. Yeah, AOC and Ted Cruz holding hands and burning down an improv shop. Finally, this country can heal.

Now, Eddie Dean, that journalist, comes to town looking for Petty. And he becomes very, he's a journalist, he's not trying to hide what he's doing. He like goes around to places where the finders go and is like, does anyone know Mary and Petty? I'd like to interview him. So they become aware that he's looking for him

and they change their theater marquee to deliver a message to him. They change it to John 832, which is a portion of the Bible that reads, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Now, that may not seem like it's specifically has anything to do with conspiracies or this journalist, but that particular quote from the Bible is engraved in the lobby of the headquarters of the CIA, right? It was the favorite motto of former CIA chief William Colby, who had disappeared a week before

in an accident in the Chesapeake Bay. So like, again, there's conspiracy theories about them and the CIA, and they put up this message when a journalist comes into town knowing exactly what it would insinuate, right? That's not an accident. They're not dumb. They understand what they're doing here.

This was a deliberate attempt to reinforce the conspiracy theory. Well, they're kind of dumb, but they also know it. Two things can be true here. Two things can be true here. This was like, again, I think he gets addicted to the attention and to people believing that he's part of something nefarious and insidious.

Yeah, this really, I mean, just like the more we talk this through, it's like this could have all been sort of, you know, relieved by a theater degree, like a good state funded theater program could have really nipped this all in the bud. If World of Warcraft had been out at the same time, I don't think this code gets off the ground. I think petty is a pretty successful guild leader, but I don't think this coat gets off the ground. No. So Petty eventually does meet with Eddie Dean and he gives an interview. There's not a lot in the interview. It's mostly Mary and Petty being like playing

at the kindly wise guru, right? He's making these kind of like statements that sort of like, he's trying to play himself off as like this Zen Buddhist figure, right? He's making these kind of like statements that sort of like, he's trying to play himself off as like this Zen Buddhist figure, right? Almost. Exhausting. He's this humble seeker. Yeah. If nothing else, fucking exhausting. Yeah. He's like, you could call me a cult leader, but I see myself as a student and all of the members of the group are my teachers and the world is my teacher and I'm just always learning.

That's why I started all this is I just love learning, right? And most of it shit like that, but there are these points of ugliness that shine through the mask he builds for himself, including this point at which Eddie Dean asks him about the lawsuit with Toby Terrell and several other former members, where Petty says, the only conflict I've ever had in my life

are with these ungrateful wretches that are suing me now. They were dope fiends and emotionally disturbed people and they got cured in my mental hospital and they left. Now they come back and wanna take the hospital. Which, first off, you had another conflict in your life. A bunch of the kids in your cult got arrested or got taken to custody. Interesting, that's a no longer.

You got raided by the feds. Like that's not a conflict? No, no, no, we don't talk about that anymore. Yeah, it's also like, it's a fucked up thing to be like, yeah, these guys are assuming me they're all dope fiends. You know, I cured them so I should get to keep their money. That's kind of evil, right? That's a pretty fucked up thing to say.

I would say evil, yes. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Mary and Petty continue to remain comfortable, and he spent the bulk of his remaining years in coal pepper, fucking with people and living with his last dozen or so followers. An internal coal document in 1990, written in the form of a CIA dossier, describes him this way. Radiates a very casual but completely confident sense of self, a sort of kaddafi without

the ego. Makes jokes about switching roles he always carries himself like an active duty officer. Does not fidget when seated in car or domicile assumes a position and holds it. No fast movements, steady, modulated voice, not bass. Sometimes speaks in a clenched teeth fashion, yet other times as a hint of a Virginia drawl. Maintains that he likes young pussy more than old pussy. Moreover, upon questioning stated that, twice a week since the age of 13 or so has been the optimum amount for me.

Farts a lot. Eccentric and urinary habits. Walks 10 to 20 miles a day and has done so for years. Reports that the secret of his health and happiness is having constantly associated only with people he likes and who like him. So, Mary and Petty. Yeah, kind of like a real uncle-like description you just gave there.

That's like 40% of our nation's uncles by that description. He's a creepy old man from the 70s. Is he a Satanist trafficking children? I don't think so. Is he a creepy old man from the 70s. Is he a Satanist trafficking children? I don't think so. Is he a creepy old man from the 70s? For sure. He's definitely a creepy old man.

There's no doubt about it. Oh, my God. Well, I yeah, this is this is a this is local theater nonsense. And I don't abide by it. And I it's's just, yeah. Yeah. So he died in 2003, having lived exactly the life he meant to live

for better and for worse. And his legacy today continues on in the form of countless YouTube videos and podcasts, theorizing that this is all the basis of the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking crimes or pizza gate or all sorts of stuff. Or it's us being like, who's to say? Being like what the fuck was happening here.

We're not sure. Yeah, and I still don't have a good answer for you folks, but at least it was a long one. At least it took us a long time to not totally be sure. Yeah, I was not familiar with the story before this saga and I feel no closer. I do, it does still feel like there's some piece of information missing and that this,

like it also just the timing of this too is so unfortunately aligned with the satanic panic where it's just like anything that got sucked up into that vortex, there's an element of either not true or will never know the degree of truth because of how just like nonsense brain that period was. Jared – Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of nonsense, Jamie. Jamie – Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Speaking of nonsense, Jamie. Yeah. It's nonsense that you had anything to do with those murders in Grand Rapids.

It's the allegations, I will say, are nonsense. The allegations are nonsense. There's no sense to them. I have it alibi. On that note, you have a new book coming out called If I Did It, the Grand Rapids Michigan story. The Grand Rapids. The Grand Rapids Michigan story. The Grand Rapids. Yeah, can you believe it's self-published? You know it's not published.

Yeah, it is self-published, but oddly enough, you do have a jacket quote by Norman Mailer, which is impressive. That's a real get. Salman Rushdie too. So, you know, some big names coming out swinging for this one. I got some friends in high places. And the pull quotes do not reflect well on me,

but they did send them in. So we put them on the jacket. The self-published book, so it's kind of, the surface of the book is a little sticky. Yeah, very sticky. And the Salmon Rushdie quote just says, can you believe I'm the one who got stabbed? That's maybe a mean joke for Salmon.

That's on a pocket. That's on a pocket. You're right. You're right. I apologize. I don't. That's OK. Please. Yeah. Check out. I don't. OK. There. Please. Yeah. Check out. Check out that book. I feel like that one's going to really make a splash.

Uh-huh. I think it's it's going to be it's going to be huge. I also I took the cue for Prince Harry. I also talk about a lot of disgusting things at length. Oh, good. Well, let's get anything else to plug, Jamie? Oh, is it time? Okay. Yes, yes. The episode's over. But by my book that isn't sticky, at least not before you eat a hot dog while you're holding it is called hot dog. I did not know where you were going there.

Yeah, neither did I. I thought we might have to use the five second delay there, Sophie. We might have to use the five second delay there. Sophie. Look, I can say with confidence that if you come on my book, it will get sticky. There's no way around it. I don't think the technology exists to prevent it. But if you come on, you can't come on a podcast and that's a great way to. I've been doing podcasts coming out. Wow.

March. You're nailing this, Jamie Jamie about main characters of the internet. Uh, it's a digital thing. So you won't be able to come on it. So maybe you could get the book and listen to the podcast. Cause I can't, you know, think about that. And I feel confident about that plug. Yeah, great.

Well everybody, until next time, uh, send in suggestions for who we should accuse of murder next. Please not me anymore. Goodbye. Behind the Bastards is a production of CoolZone Media. For more from CoolZone Media, visit our website, CoolZoneMedia.com. Or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts, or known as the Brothers Hunt. We're hosting a new podcast, Gods Country by MeatEater and I Heart Podcast.

Gods Country is a weekly drive to the intersection of music and the outdoors. Two things that go together like Sunday and some pond fishing or cows and green pastures. This record will be the one that it will always define who I am. So hop on in and ride shotgun with us. We take the back roads with some of the most influential people in country music today. Listen to God's Country on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

On our new podcast, True Crimes with John and Deanna, we're turning our online investigative skills to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases. Police say 33-year-old was shot dead. Gunned down in front of his two-year-old daughter. It was a targeted attack. It appears to be an execution style assassination.

This is very active, so we have to be careful. Listen to Two Crimes with John and Deanna every Wednesday on the iHeart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're fucked. Shall we be? Hi, I'm Chris Turni. And if you're like me, it's easy to read all the bad news about the climate and just think, we're f***ed.

That's why I've started a new podcast. It's a show about the climate crisis and what we can do about it. So stop doom-scrolling and tune in to Unf***ing the Future. Together, we can un-f*** things. Listen to Unf***ing the Future on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.